Monterrey

[MonterreyDude]

my friend, you will not get it till you see it in your front yard.

and you just don't get the point.

they us goverment slowly is accpeting that weapons in mexico come from the us, but the nra is burrying anything due to the power they have.

when i mentioned gun runners, i did not say these gun runners were buyin their guns at walmart and selling them to mexico.

they are getting them from the west coast and moving them to mexico.

of course they come from asia. but they end in mexico.

that is what i mean by gun runners.

you do not get the part of the southern cartels cause you do not know any of them asides from zetas and cdg.

there are over 20 cartels in mexico.

the southern ones el centro, la familia, are in constant war with the cartel de sinaloa, cartel de tijuana, la linea, cartel de juarez, cdg, zetas.

"guns positively traced directly to the united states, according to reports published by atf, equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in mexico. this means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in mexico were not traced back directly to the united states."

this part you got from the nra and fox news. pure unadulterated bs.

this is from an article published 2 years ago and this year am sure they will reprint it.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...s-mexico-come/

april 2 2009.... two years ago.

but if you believe in blogs, which i don't, same way i never trust fox news (no one in the rest of the world reprints a fox news article) you might like to read the analysis of this guy:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

quoting and i copy/paste sen. dick durbin (d-ill.) and sen. dianne feinstein (d-calif.) that the figure is 90% from the us.
completely the other way around.
but i like what he says, he says that both fox and the atf are wrong and that the figure is ellusive.

in past years the cartels used to erase the serial numbers. that's why they coudln't be trace to the us.

now they don't care. that's why the number of guns trace to the us is increasing.

that is why the atf is hitting armories in texas, new mexico and arizona now.

cause they are tracing the guns back to them.


anyway, let us trust fox news:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...g-guns-mexico/

the atf is allowing guns to be smuggled into mexico.
that is pure and unadultered corruption of a goverment agency.
but then, this is fox news true to it's form: "none of the claims about the atf allowing guns to cross the border have been conclusively proved. but sen. grassley has called for the atf to be more transparent to allow the truth to come out."

after throwing the stone, they hide their hand. pure bible parable.
distortion of the truth and lies close to truth... true dr. goebbles at work here.

"a very large portion of guns used by criminals are actually purchased in mexico, or stolen from their legitimate owners, who have purchased them through ucam, the mexican agency that sells mexican nationals their legal firearms. while ucam does have very strict regulations for civilians to purchase guns in mexico, criminals will use straw purchasers to obtain firearms from ucam, and / or obtain them from corrupt officials"

caliber of guns sold in mexico legally do not go over handguns and then, no more than. 38 soft calibers.

no super guns are sold to the general public.

and iam blaming the us for being the number one drug consumer of the world that has mexico as it is right now.

get it???

lets clarify the rhetoric. i have long been outraged by the perception that mexicanos are not typically permitted to possess firearms. so, i've done some research to clarify that issue, and i can also statistically challenge this rhetoric about the us being the source of the majority of firearms and explosives used at the hands of the cartels.

the constitution of 1917, article 10, as amended, states: the inhabitants of the united mexican states have a right to arms in their homes, for security and legitimate defense, with the exception of arms prohibited by federal law and those reserved for the exclusive use of the army, navy, air force and national guard. federal law will determine the cases, conditions, requirements, and places in which the carrying of arms will be authorized to the inhabitants. mexicanos are legally permitted to purchase certain firearms from a mexican agency called ucam. the selection of models is restricted, but those selections include many of those same models that are being confirep001ed from the cartels.

guns positively traced directly to the united states, according to reports published by atf, equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in mexico. this means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in mexico were not traced back directly to the united states.

that 12% is just another result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false ids, false ssns, straw purchases, etc. the porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed bogus charge that the us is the origin of illegal firearms and explosives being used by the cartels in mexico.

a very large portion of guns used by criminals are actually purchased in mexico, or stolen from their legitimate owners, who have purchased them through ucam, the mexican agency that sells mexican nationals their legal firearms. while ucam does have very strict regulations for civilians to purchase guns in mexico, criminals will use straw purchasers to obtain firearms from ucam, and / or obtain them from corrupt officials.

ucam is a mexican run agency. how many of us have faith in the integrity that there is little or no graft or corruption occurring in this agency? mexican agencies do not have the most stellar track record with respect to ethics, legality, justice, competence, etc.

it is not uncommon to see 38 super pistols seized from cartel figures, which is a caliber that is not popular in the united states. many of these pistols are of mexican origin. likewise, cartel hit men commonly use 380 pistols equipped with sound suppressors in their assassinations. in many cases, these pistols are purchased in mexico, the suppressors are locally manufactured, and the guns are adapted to receive the suppressors by mexican underworld gunsmiths.

with regard to tovex, grenades, ieds, etc. latin america is awash in weapons that were shipped-in over the past several decades from international sources of manufacture in order to supply the various insurgencies and counter insurgencies in that region of the world. when these military-grade weapons are combined with the rampant corruption in the region, they quickly find their way into the black market.

the mexican cartels have supply-chain contacts that help move narcotics to mexico from south america and they are able to use this same network to obtain guns from the black market in south and central america and then smuggle them into mexico. that is infinitely easier than to supposedly procure these from the us, where they are heavily regulated.

law rockets and m60 machine guns come into mexico from third world countries and not directly from the united states. most of the military ordnance used by the mexican cartels comes from the international illegal arms market, and increasingly from china, via the same networks that furnish precursor chemicals for narcotics manufacturing. these kinds of weapons also come from corrupt elements in the mexican military, and / or from deserters who take their weapons with them.

items such as south korean fragmentation grenades and rpg-7s, often used by the cartels, simply are not in the usa arsenal. this means that very few of the weapons in this category come from the united states, yet they are being used in significant numbers by the cartels.

it is not accurate to assign blame to the usa for the heinous acts of the cartels using firearms and / or explosives just because some of these firearms, which are legally made in the us (12% to be exact) , some even legally available for sale in mexico, are procured illegally in mexico on the black market from other world-wide illegitimate sources.

[Jinxx]

My point was, it is illegal to sneak across the border of the United States, and it's just as illegal smuggling guns into Mexico. It's illegal purchasing guns if you're a resident of Mexico, and it's illegal purchasing illegal drugs if you're a resident of the US and Mexico. It's illegal sneaking into Mexico, and it's illegal sneaking into the US.

Lets dispense with the rhetoric and analyze the facts. Illegal aliens pay around $13 billion in taxes, and they cost the individual State governments $113 billion dollars in services. Those are the numbers that have been documented by IRS, and those numbers are according to reports from the individual border States, ALL OF WHICH claim to being virtually bankrupted, in part, by the negative effects of Illegal Immigration. Common sense dictates that the underground economy alone, where illegals are paid in cash, and their is no documentation of wages earned, represents an enormous black hole that many refuse to consider.

The rhetoric flies fast and furious as some advocate for both sides of the issue. There is an enormous amount of disingenuous rhetoric, but the 13 billion versus 113 billion is what can be officially documented. The debate about the illegals being good people, their work ethic, whether they pay taxes, their underground contribution to the US economy, and / or their motivations, and all the rest of the stupid rhetoric that both sides throw around, is totally and completely irrelevant.

They are mostly good people, they are some of the very best workers, they are for the most part reliable, and most are understandably only seeking a better life. But, that doesn't excuse the FACT that they are violating US Federal Law. That doesn't negate the security risk to the US with respect to terrorism and criminal enterprise associated with hordes of undocumented individuals flooding across the border.

With regard to BBonds statistics concerning guns that have been identified by serial number as coming from the United States, he is absolutely, positively correct. I do not get those numbers from Fox News. Those are numbers published directly by ATF following a joint investigation conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican Government. Most of the guns in Mexico are acquired by Mexicanos illegally. That, of course, is just another monumental detrimental result occurring as a result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false IDs, false SSNs, etc. The porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed illegal firearm problem occurring in Mexico through straw purchase sales from Gun Dealers in the border States.

There simply is no logical excuse for people advocating for open borders when trying to control crime, terrorism, guns, etc. The advocates of open borders, or those justifying illegal immigration on humanitarian grounds, fail to consider all the fall-out that results from undocumented aliens. The effects of illegal immigration upon the security of sovereign nations is monumental.

With respect to blaming the US for the category of weapons being smuggled into Mexico, it is illegal to possess automatic weapons in the US without a license. Those licenses are $3000 per firearm. Those having legal possession of automatic weapons are audited by ATF to confirm their receipt and possession of those weapons on an annual basis. Dealers and individuals licensed to possess automatic weapons damn well better have those weapons in their possession, or have a verifiable disposition for those weapons, or they will be in prison, and much more quickly than were they to have committed murder. Individual owners of automatic weapons are individually investigated by ATF before they're issued a license to possess an automatic weapon. There is NO fraud associated with procuring such licenses because ATF agents personally thoroughly investigate each and every applicant for such a license, so much so that obtaining a license leaves no question as to the legality of the legal purchase. Class 1 dealers in the US, which consists of the majority of gun dealers along the border, and throughout the USA, are not permitted to purchase or sell automatic weapons. Only Class 3 dealers are permitted to do so, and they are very closely scrutinized. Therefore, if automatic weapons are making it into Mexico, they are not being procured legally. They are being hijacked from shipment, or stolen from government stock piles, etc. But, they are not being obtained through legal channels. In other words, automatic weapons are making it to Mexico through criminal enterprises, both in the US and Mexico.

It is also disingenuous to blame the point of origin for illegal firearms slipping into Mexico. When anyone makes that same claim about drugs, some are only too quick to blame the "users" of drugs, and somehow the point of origin seems to escape the debate. Don't misunderstand, with illegal drugs, both of them being illegal in both countries, the blame should be squarely placed upon the drug dealers and the users. And, of course, the governments should be blamed for letting it happen.

Legal ownership of Firearms is legal in the US. The fact that weapons are manufactured in the US is a bogus excuse for blaming the US for the mayhem occurring in Mexico. The "people" of Mexico are illegally procuring those firearms, and they are guilty of a crime in Mexico through mere possession. I suppose the offending Mexicanos are blameless in the whole scenario.

If you apply this same logic to drugs, some are eager to blame the drug problem on the US because the people in the US purchase drugs. But, following that same "point of origin" argument used to blame the proliferation of guns in Mexico, whom is to blame with respect to the supply of drugs flooding into the US?

Automobiles are manufactured in the US too. According to that same twisted "point of origin" argument, the US is to blame for deaths occurring as a result of automobile accidents where the vehicles involved in deadly accidents were US made vehicles. According to "point of origin" logic, and no "individual responsibility," I suppose the drivers in deadly accidents should be considered blameless.

My comment regarding the 12-18 million illegal aliens, and the correlation between illegal guns being smuggled into Mexico, illustrates my frustration with the finger pointing rhetoric that abounds, the excuses for illegal behavior on both counts, and the lack of resolve to hold individuals and governments accountable for ignoring their responsibilities.

With respect to illegal immigration, if I have to be scrutinized when traveling into Mexico, and upon re-entry into my own country, then I want the same kind of scrutiny on visitors, immigrants, illegal or not, to make sure that all people are equally documented and scrutinized before they are permitted to live, work, and / or visit the USA.

I don't want to say whether or not illegal immigration into the USA is a negative or a positive. I was only trying to say that it's unfair to say that since masses of people are sneaking in to the country from Mexico it is justifiable for us to wholesale large quantities of high powered weapons to some of the nastiest, most brutal people on the planet whose sole agenda is to wreak havoc and terrorize the people of Mexico.

You are absolutely right in that many parties are to blame for illegal immigration. The debate whether illegal immigration is overall good or bad is never-ending and I don't think this is the forum in which to discuss it.

I don't think anybody is going to argue that selling arms to crime organizations is in any way, shape, or for a positive thing.

Damn, am I to blame for starting this whole discussion about the security situation, cartels, and crime, etc, etc?

From now on I'll try to stick to the subject at hand (pussy). Sorry about the thread derail guys.

[Member #3453]

bb. i trust you.

but i don't believe your sources.

specially fox news.

you do not get my point:

1. gun runners are illegaly selling weapons to mexico via the us. that does not mean they are sold in the us.

2. 750 weapons bought legally have been confirep001ed within the us in a single sizure and you still say that the us is not selling guns to mexican cartels. i mean 750 weapons is a heafty number. plus it is only one seziure of weapons. heaven knows how many more have crossed in to mexico thru the years.

3. again i ask: why should cartels buy guns via south america if they have the us one stone throw away? it is time and money.

and let me point a nice hole in your theory: you really think guns bought in south america can get clear into the northern part of mexico, via land?

answering yes put you on the side of the ignorant, and you are not that bbond.

no weapons would get to the north of mexico cause the southern cartels would not allow their enemies get armed. specially la famila that is mortal enemy of both los zetas and the cartel de sinaloa.

and as i recall, the weapons confirep001ed in arizona were for the cartel de sinaloa.

ok, they get to northern mexico via sea. come on, it's easier to get gun runners in the us to sell them guns.

time and money again.

lets clarify the rhetoric. i have long been outraged by the perception that mexicanos are not typically permitted to possess firearms. so, i've done some research to clarify that issue, and i can also statistically challenge this rhetoric about the us being the source of the majority of firearms and explosives used at the hands of the cartels.

the constitution of 1917, article 10, as amended, states: the inhabitants of the united mexican states have a right to arms in their homes, for security and legitimate defense, with the exception of arms prohibited by federal law and those reserved for the exclusive use of the army, navy, air force and national guard. federal law will determine the cases, conditions, requirements, and places in which the carrying of arms will be authorized to the inhabitants. mexicanos are legally permitted to purchase certain firearms from a mexican agency called ucam. the selection of models is restricted, but those selections include many of those same models that are being confirep001ed from the cartels.

guns positively traced directly to the united states, according to reports published by atf, equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in mexico. this means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in mexico were not traced back directly to the united states.

that 12% is just another result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false ids, false ssns, straw purchases, etc. the porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed bogus charge that the us is the origin of illegal firearms and explosives being used by the cartels in mexico.

a very large portion of guns used by criminals are actually purchased in mexico, or stolen from their legitimate owners, who have purchased them through ucam, the mexican agency that sells mexican nationals their legal firearms. while ucam does have very strict regulations for civilians to purchase guns in mexico, criminals will use straw purchasers to obtain firearms from ucam, and/or obtain them from corrupt officials.

ucam is a mexican run agency. how many of us have faith in the integrity that there is little or no graft or corruption occurring in this agency? mexican agencies do not have the most stellar track record with respect to ethics, legality, justice, competence, etc...

it is not uncommon to see 38 super pistols seized from cartel figures, which is a caliber that is not popular in the united states. many of these pistols are of mexican origin. likewise, cartel hit men commonly use 380 pistols equipped with sound suppressors in their assassinations. in many cases, these pistols are purchased in mexico, the suppressors are locally manufactured, and the guns are adapted to receive the suppressors by mexican underworld gunsmiths.

with regard to tovex, grenades, ieds, etc...latin america is awash in weapons that were shipped-in over the past several decades from international sources of manufacture in order to supply the various insurgencies and counter insurgencies in that region of the world. when these military-grade weapons are combined with the rampant corruption in the region, they quickly find their way into the black market.

the mexican cartels have supply-chain contacts that help move narcotics to mexico from south america and they are able to use this same network to obtain guns from the black market in south and central america and then smuggle them into mexico. that is infinitely easier than to supposedly procure these from the us, where they are heavily regulated.

law rockets and m60 machine guns come into mexico from third world countries and not directly from the united states. most of the military ordnance used by the mexican cartels comes from the international illegal arms market, and increasingly from china, via the same networks that furnish precursor chemicals for narcotics manufacturing. these kinds of weapons also come from corrupt elements in the mexican military, and/or from deserters who take their weapons with them.

items such as south korean fragmentation grenades and rpg-7s, often used by the cartels, simply are not in the usa arsenal. this means that very few of the weapons in this category come from the united states, yet they are being used in significant numbers by the cartels.

it is not accurate to assign blame to the usa for the heinous acts of the cartels using firearms and/or explosives just because some of these firearms, which are legally made in the us (12% to be exact), some even legally available for sale in mexico, are procured illegally in mexico on the black market from other world-wide illegitimate sources.

[Member #3453]

Yea. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who work harder and cheaper than legal americans. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 consumers who buy food, housing, clothes, cars, entertainment, and luxury goods. The 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who pay billions of dollars of taxes every year. (Yes illegal aliens pay taxes, often times more than legal americans.) The US could stop illegal immigration any time it wants to, but it will never happen because this country benefits too much from it. Same thing with drugs. We could stop the drug flow at any time or solve the problems drugs cause by legalizing them, but it will never happen because too many people benefit from the way things are now.

Not a cool or funny analogy at all."Yea let's pay Mexico back for sending us cheap labor and consumers by supplying them with the tools they can use to terrorize and mass-murder eachother." Ha ha!

Not cool at all.

My point was, it is illegal to sneak across the border of the United States, and it's just as illegal smuggling guns into Mexico. It's illegal purchasing guns if you're a resident of Mexico, and it's illegal purchasing illegal drugs if you're a resident of the US and Mexico. It's illegal sneaking into Mexico, and it's illegal sneaking into the US.

Lets dispense with the rhetoric and analyze the facts. Illegal aliens pay around $13 billion in taxes, and they cost the individual State governments $113 billion dollars in services. Those are the numbers that have been documented by IRS, and those numbers are according to reports from the individual border States, ALL OF WHICH claim to being virtually bankrupted, in part, by the negative effects of Illegal Immigration. Common sense dictates that the underground economy alone, where illegals are paid in cash, and their is no documentation of wages earned, represents an enormous black hole that many refuse to consider.

The rhetoric flies fast and furious as some advocate for both sides of the issue. There is an enormous amount of disingenuous rhetoric, but the 13 billion versus 113 billion is what can be officially documented. The debate about the illegals being good people, their work ethic, whether they pay taxes, their underground contribution to the US economy, and / or their motivations, and all the rest of the stupid rhetoric that both sides throw around, is totally and completely irrelevant.

They are mostly good people, they are some of the very best workers, they are for the most part reliable, and most are understandably only seeking a better life. But, that doesn't excuse the FACT that they are violating US Federal Law. That doesn't negate the security risk to the US with respect to terrorism and criminal enterprise associated with hordes of undocumented individuals flooding across the border.

With regard to BBonds statistics concerning guns that have been identified by serial number as coming from the United States, he is absolutely, positively correct. I do not get those numbers from Fox News. Those are numbers published directly by ATF following a joint investigation conducted with the cooperation of the Mexican Government. Most of the guns in Mexico are acquired by Mexicanos illegally. That, of course, is just another monumental detrimental result occurring as a result of their being a huge number of undocumented illegal aliens using false IDs, false SSNs, etc. The porous border problem can also be blamed directly for the supposed illegal firearm problem occurring in Mexico through straw purchase sales from Gun Dealers in the border States.

There simply is no logical excuse for people advocating for open borders when trying to control crime, terrorism, guns, etc...The advocates of open borders, or those justifying illegal immigration on humanitarian grounds, fail to consider all the fall-out that results from undocumented aliens. The effects of illegal immigration upon the security of sovereign nations is monumental.

With respect to blaming the US for the category of weapons being smuggled into Mexico, it is illegal to possess automatic weapons in the US without a license. Those licenses are $3000 per firearm. Those having legal possession of automatic weapons are audited by ATF to confirm their receipt and possession of those weapons on an annual basis. Dealers and individuals licensed to possess automatic weapons damn well better have those weapons in their possession, or have a verifiable disposition for those weapons, or they will be in prison, and much more quickly than were they to have committed murder. Individual owners of automatic weapons are individually investigated by ATF before they're issued a license to possess an automatic weapon. There is NO fraud associated with procuring such licenses because ATF agents personally thoroughly investigate each and every applicant for such a license, so much so that obtaining a license leaves no question as to the legality of the legal purchase. Class 1 dealers in the US, which consists of the majority of gun dealers along the border, and throughout the USA, are not permitted to purchase or sell automatic weapons. Only Class 3 dealers are permitted to do so, and they are very closely scrutinized. Therefore, if automatic weapons are making it into Mexico, they are not being procured legally. They are being hijacked from shipment, or stolen from government stock piles, etc...but, they are not being obtained through legal channels. In other words, automatic weapons are making it to Mexico through criminal enterprises, both in the US and Mexico.

It is also disingenuous to blame the point of origin for illegal firearms slipping into Mexico. When anyone makes that same claim about drugs, some are only too quick to blame the "users" of drugs, and somehow the point of origin seems to escape the debate. Don't misunderstand, with illegal drugs, both of them being illegal in both countries, the blame should be squarely placed upon the drug dealers and the users. And, of course, the governments should be blamed for letting it happen.

Legal ownership of Firearms is legal in the US. The fact that weapons are manufactured in the US is a bogus excuse for blaming the US for the mayhem occurring in Mexico. The "people" of Mexico are illegally procuring those firearms, and they are guilty of a crime in Mexico through mere possession. I suppose the offending Mexicanos are blameless in the whole scenario.

If you apply this same logic to drugs, some are eager to blame the drug problem on the US because the people in the US purchase drugs. But, following that same "point of origin" argument used to blame the proliferation of guns in Mexico, whom is to blame with respect to the supply of drugs flooding into the US?

Automobiles are manufactured in the US too. According to that same twisted "point of origin" argument, the US is to blame for deaths occurring as a result of automobile accidents where the vehicles involved in deadly accidents were US made vehicles. According to "point of origin" logic, and no "individual responsibility," I suppose the drivers in deadly accidents should be considered blameless.

My comment regarding the 12-18 million illegal aliens, and the correlation between illegal guns being smuggled into Mexico, illustrates my frustration with the finger pointing rhetoric that abounds, the excuses for illegal behavior on both counts, and the lack of resolve to hold individuals and governments accountable for ignoring their responsibilities.

With respect to illegal immigration, if I have to be scrutinized when traveling into Mexico, and upon re-entry into my own country, then I want the same kind of scrutiny on visitors, immigrants, illegal or not, to make sure that all people are equally documented and scrutinized before they are permitted to live, work, and/or visit the USA.

[MonterreyDude]

bb... i trust you.
but i don't believe your sources.

specially fox news.

you do not get my point:

1. gun runners are illegaly selling weapons to mexico via the us. that does not mean they are sold in the us.

2. 750 weapons bought legally have been confirep001ed within the us in a single sizure and you still say that the us is not selling guns to mexican cartels... i mean 750 weapons is a heafty number. plus it is only one seziure of weapons. heaven knows how many more have crossed in to mexico thru the years.

3. again i ask: why should cartels buy guns via south america if they have the us one stone throw away? it is time and money.
and let me point a nice hole in your theory: you really think guns bought in south america can get clear into the northern part of mexico, via land?
answering yes put you on the side of the ignorant, and you are not that bbond.
no weapons would get to the north of mexico cause the southern cartels would not allow their enemies get armed. specially la famila that is mortal enemy of both los zetas and the cartel de sinaloa.
and as i recall, the weapons confirep001ed in arizona were for the cartel de sinaloa.
ok, they get to northern mexico via sea... come on, it's easier to get gun runners in the us to sell them guns.
time and money again.

below is from.

http://www.chandlerswatch.com/2010/0...-mexican-army/

most of the guns that mexico has seized from the cartels and asked the batfe to trace (because markings on those particular firearms indicated that they came from the usa) represent only a small percentage of guns that mexico has seized.

research it, no-one can statistically support that the us is the major arms supplier to the drug cartels.

sure it is claimed the majority are from the us, but that claim cannot be supported.

then this.

http://groups.google.com*******front...5aaaa6c6e37644

as of august 2010 the mexican military had seized 180, 000+ arms from the cartels, the cartels still have a good number more, to say the majority of all that came from the us is unsupportable.

also.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...s-mexico-come/

"in other words. 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. and when you weed out the roughly 6, 000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in mexico could not be traced to the usa"

[Marius 67]

what is the point of this. just to spread fear. were there any specific target (s). maybe to gauge the reaction of the police. maybe to set them up for an ambush. whatever the reason. this and the grenades are the worst of all.

it is so crazy here. on the surface all is well, if you have ever been to money terra rey. you know how modern it is and rich it is and how many people are put and about all over the place. it seems really 'civilized'. there are cops all over, and you don't see any obvious signs of any trouble. but then out of the blue. here comes a convoy of militares. in full combat gear, faces covered, guns at the ready. you wonder why. everything seems ok. what is up. sometimes i write things that to some people might portray monterrey as a war zone. as in what we all visualize as a war zone. bombs bursting in air. pitched battles etc. but that is not the way it really is.

to the untrained eye. not one thing is out of place. but after a while you start to see it. people run traffic lights. speed. throw trash write graffiti everywhere. borrachos on the street sleeping. side walks all broken up. no lines on the roads to mark where you park or drive. people begging in the streets or at the intersections. the halcones hanging out. the strange guys with the mean look in their eyes. prostitutes. the brothels. painted pink with a neon sign that just says 'open'. the dirty gritty streets, buildings half completed. half falling down. horns honking. busses all marked up painted a mix of diverse color schemes. some brand new, others antigue looking, flying in all directions. exhaust fumes. people who are either scurrying or seem to be in some sort of a trance walking right out in the street. unaware of their own safety.

and in the wealthier areas the trendy bars and restaurants, the new cars. shiny people. expensive shops. at least as fancy and high tech as anything you will see in an american city. you can feel the money. and from the people the arrogant attitude.

there seems to be no concept of social conciousness from the upper classes towards the lower classes. no connectedness. not even enough to to maintain utilities, roads or other systems used by everyone.

this is to me a social war, and is the most apparent war. then when you watch the news and see the bodys. or actually see the blood on the streets from a recent killing, it combines. i used to tell people the most dangerous thing about monterrey is the possibility of getting ran over by a bus, that is still there. but now that is compounded by the possibility of being blown up by a car bomb.

is monterrey a war zone. not in the traditional sense, at least not yet. but it is a war zone, . the kind that slowly creeps up on your mind.

it seems like there are two kinds of people here.

the poor who are uneducated, and have been brutalized to the point that they don't know how to behave properly.

and the wealthy who are educated. but are so arrogant that they don't feel that they should have to behave in a civilized manner.

many of the wealthy here are just the descendants of criminals of some generations ago who were successful enough to kill their way to the top and become 'legitimate'. they are proverbial educated, well dressed wolves. only now with perfect fangs and manicured claws.

the criminals and lower classes of today know this and also know that it is within their grasp to attain the same status. to me that is why the corruption and lawlessness in mexico is so hard to stop.

just a little yokel rant that occurred to me while i was fighting my way through traffic yesterday.

[Bbond]

The thing is that slowly but surely gun runners are being exposed.

Hopefuly that will slow down the trade, the ammount and the calibre of the weapons sold to Mexico.

Below is from http://www.chandlerswatch.com/2010/0...-mexican-army/

Most of the guns that Mexico has seized from the cartels and asked the BATFE to trace (because markings on those particular firearms indicated that they came from the USA) represent only a small percentage of guns that Mexico has seized.

Research it, no-one can statistically support that the US is the major arms supplier to the drug cartels.

Sure it is claimed the majority are from the US, but that claim cannot be supported.

Then this...http://groups.google.com*******front...5aaaa6c6e37644

As of August 2010 the Mexican military had seized 180,000+ arms from the cartels, the cartels still have a good number more, to say the majority of all that came from the US is unsupportable.

Also..http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...s-mexico-come/

"In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S."

[Jinxx]

There is plenty of finger pointing to go around.

An individual who swears on the ATF Federal Form, claiming that they are purchasing the firearm for their own use, with the intention of smuggling it into Mexico, is guilty of a Federal Crime.

But, it's also a Federal Crime to illegally enter the United States. So, due in part to 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers, the United States is almost bankrupt.

Lets see, in order to even the score, that means we owe our Mexican neighbors at least 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 firearms. We have not even scratched the surface in fulfilling our quota.)

Yea. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who work harder and cheaper than legal americans. 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 consumers who buy food, housing, clothes, cars, entertainment, and luxury goods. The 12, 000, 000 to 18, 000, 000 law breakers who pay billions of dollars of taxes every year. (Yes illegal aliens pay taxes, often times more than legal americans.) The US could stop illegal immigration any time it wants to, but it will never happen because this country benefits too much from it. Same thing with drugs. We could stop the drug flow at any time or solve the problems drugs cause by legalizing them, but it will never happen because too many people benefit from the way things are now.

Not a cool or funny analogy at all."Yea let's pay Mexico back for sending us cheap labor and consumers by supplying them with the tools they can use to terrorize and mass-murder eachother." Ha ha!

Not cool at all.

[Member #3453]

I agree.

The thing is that slowly but surely gun runners are being exposed.

Hopefuly that will slow down the trade, the ammount and the calibre of the weapons sold to Mexico.

There is plenty of finger pointing to go around...

An individual who swears on the ATF Federal Form, claiming that they are purchasing the firearm for their own use, with the intention of smuggling it into Mexico, is guilty of a Federal Crime.

But, it's also a Federal Crime to illegally enter the United States. So, due in part to 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 law breakers, the United States is almost bankrupt.

Lets see, in order to even the score, that means we owe our Mexican neighbors at least 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 firearms. We have not even scratched the surface in fulfilling our quota... :-)))))

[MonterreyDude]

I agree.

The thing is that slowly but surely gun runners are being exposed.

Hopefuly that will slow down the trade, the ammount and the calibre of the weapons sold to Mexico.

Exact same reason US buys drugs from Mexico.

US buys drugs, Mexicans sell.

Mexicans buy guns, US sells.

Take away one or the other, ain't going to stop either.

Guns are legal in the US, drugs are not legal in US or Mexico.

[Bbond]

BB. I knew someone would post that the guns do not come from the US.

One question: why should the cartels buy guns from South America when they have the US no more than 5 minutes away from them?

Exact same reason US buys drugs from Mexico.

US buys drugs, Mexicans sell.

Mexicans buy guns, US sells.

Take away one or the other, ain't going to stop either.

Guns are legal in the US, drugs are not legal in US or Mexico.

[MonterreyDude]

BB. I knew someone would post that the guns do not come from the US.

One question: why should the cartels buy guns from South America when they have the US no more than 5 minutes away from them?

The thing is you guys States side can not fathom the reality that you have gun runners selling guns not just to the rest of the world, but to Mexico too.

Let me point out that an article that came out in the New York Times and the LA Times (plus others) was quickly burried by the NRA rethoric not more than 2 weeks ago:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...p=1&sq=arizona%20guns%20sinaloa&st=cse.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3179205.story

And someone told me they could trace the weopns back to the seller. Well, they have and it was right in the US.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3579590.story

It is well established fact that the guns came from the US.

Thing is the US population refuses to see the truth.

And more and more proof will come that these sales, plus ILLEGAL gun running (ILLEGAL, not legal sales. The US has gun runners selling has tons and tons of weapons in your soil) are moving south to Mexico.

Wishing the US would stop using drugs? Ain't going to happen, drugs are glamorized, even our elite use them, many consider drugs like cocaine relatively harmless. Can't get coke? Heck we have our in country made meth. Drugs, just like booze, are here to stay and that is a fact.

Stop illegal gun trafficing to Mexico? Stop buying them. As long as there is a market, someone, the US or someone else will fill it. AK-47s come from all over the world, probably easier to bring them in from down south anyway.

I read that most grenades come in from South or Central America.

Biggest problem I see in all this is the police are not on the side of the people, witness drugs openly sold with police watching over the transactions, police extorting people, etc, etc. Without an effective police force, crime runs rampant.

[Bbond]

Instead of hearing wishes that drug consumption be stopped in the US, that illegal traffiking of guns to Mexico will be stopped (and I repeat, ILLEGAL gun traffiking)... I only hear the escaltion of violence.

Wishing the US would stop using drugs? Ain't going to happen, drugs are glamorized, even our elite use them, many consider drugs like cocaine relatively harmless. Can't get coke? Heck we have our in country made meth. Drugs, just like booze, are here to stay and that is a fact.

Stop illegal gun trafficing to Mexico? Stop buying them. As long as there is a market, someone, the US or someone else will fill it. AK-47s come from all over the world, probably easier to bring them in from down south anyway.

I read that most grenades come in from South or Central America.

Biggest problem I see in all this is the police are not on the side of the people, witness drugs openly sold with police watching over the transactions, police extorting people, etc, etc. Without an effective police force, crime runs rampant.

[Member #3453]

USB says: "Also, it's quite clear that a heavily armed US population will not permit some of the terrorist methods being used in Monterrey to occur in the US in the commission of street crimes. Criminals using some of these same terrorist methods in the US would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large."

Not true.

Again you only say "would be met with overwhelming and deadly resistance from the armed, innocent population at large."

We are not talking individual nutcases with a couple of guns gunning down crowds in Arizona.

We are talking organized crime.

Narcs carry overwhelming firepower in their level 5 armored vehicules: more than one assault weapon per occupant. Not only assault weapons, but guns. Add granades, RPGs and ammo sufficient to confront the army.

And that is just in the trunk of their cars.

And that kind of weaponry is used only to intimidate.

And they have no qualms to kill innocent bystanders.

And when they really mean business, they will do it in groups of 5 to 10 aromored vehicules making it like 25 killers per convoy.

AND you have also not considered retaliation.

(Why do you think the Army and Marines are involved on this. Cause these guys go for the family after the hail of bullets, to spread harm and fear even further and deeply)

No resistance from armed innocent population would be enough to stop them.

You have also not considered in your equation, that said armed innocent popultation, being them in their own right to pack a weapon, might be in the streets with their also innocent family.

Only an idiot would unholster an automatic pistol and try to confront a narc with an AK-47 with their family in close proximity. 1 or 2 feet away and bring a hail of bullets from them straight to their loved ones.

No, you are not considering many factors involved what is a confrontation between a killer that does not care who he kills and armed citizens that in the moment of truth, am quite sure they will hit the ground first and lastly, after everything is over, he will remember that he has a pop gun that is no match against a far superior fire power.

And only the Mexican armed forces have been succesful in stopping them cause they have the training and weapons to stop them.

But again and that is my point in my post further down below, that the level of violence will be going up many notches.

And if it does, it will be the daily bread of America. Same kind we are having in Mexico.

Instead of hearing wishes that drug consumption be stopped in the US, that illegal traffiking of guns to Mexico will be stopped (and I repeat, ILLEGAL gun traffiking). I only hear the escaltion of violence.

And that is not the solution.

The FBI estimates that there are over 200 million privately-owned firearms in the US. If you add those owned by the military, law enforcement agencies, and museums, there's probably about one firearm per person in the USA. The last total estimate was about 350,000,000. That would be one weapon for every man woman and child in the US.

I don't care what kind of weapons the Cartels have, whatever they have is simply not sufficient to repel the absolutely overwhelming hordes of determined rednecks that would come out of the woodwork against them. And, historically, the purpose of the founding fathers in the USA was to have that very same potential effect upon a potentially tyrannical government evolving over time. But, it also applies to any form of tyranny, governmental or organized crime.

Imagine, you are a small group of cartel members, and every other person you're trying to dominate is armed, some of them with similar firepower, and they are not only armed, but they are proficient in the use of those arms, and more importantly, they are willing to use them.

And, frankly, the latter part of that statement is what distinguishes the American from many other societies that have been ultimately dominated by their governments, criminals, etc...In my opinion, it is a cultural issue. Some societies are willing to fight for their freedom, and some are content living under oppression, whether that be oppression from the government, or oppression from criminals.

”The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Nobody said it would be a safe scenario to fight back. But, you either fight oppression or you accept it. You are either dominated by it, and forced to live under oppressive conditions, or you fight back. You are either content bolting the front door, and never venturing out for fear of your life, or you choose to fight back. There is no other answer.

For my part, I prefer to at least have the means to fight back, regardless of the outcome, rather than just passively walking over the cliff because I am helpless to resist.

If the sociological and cultural conditioning of the people have them choosing to succumb to it, relying on promises from their government that they'll be protected, then they'll experience the same fate as all the rest of the people throughout history that have traded their liberty for hollow promises of security from their inept, corrupt, and opportunistic governments.

Some people, and whole societies, are content being lambs to the slaughter. History demonstrates in one instance after another that such passivity results in their own oppression through a blind but hopeful complicity with those who are wanting to dominate them. This naive and ultimately self destructive perspective about personal protection and personally liberty has it's intended effect on their intended victims.

[Jinxx]

There is just as much "crime" in the large cities of the US. Just check out the crime stats for New York, St. Louis, Philidelphia, Chicago, Miami, New Orleans, etc.

But, the efforts to fight crime are in your face in Mexico due to the presence of the Military, whose intention is to exhibit an absolute dominance of the society they are now policing. The presence of the military as a civilian peace keeping force is foreign to Gringos, and it's weird for them to see it.

In the US, criminals are much more discrete. Criminals do not call attention to their acts by displaying them with such brutality because they know the police are much more aggressive, conscientious, and successful at using the evidence gathered from that level of brutality to bring criminals to justice. A "Cartel Level" of brutality leaves significantly more evidence, draws attention to the crime, etc. Something the US criminal is adverse to.

In Mexico, you only have the army keeping order, pursuing the cartels, and investigating very little with respect to crime. The police are virtually worthless at investigating crimes, and bringing perpetrators to justice in Mexico. Therefore, you are seeing an escalation and a brutality element in Mexico that mimics the cartels as the copy cats enter the fray, and as the regular criminals, or those they have always formerly restrained their criminal activity, begin to engage in criminal acts. They know the army doesn't investigate, and they know the police have been virtually subjugated by the army with respect to not only civil peace keeping, but that the ineffectiveness of police investigative follow up is almost non-existent.

More are turning to Crime in Mexico, carrying out retributions, and engaging in violent acts against their long-time enemies within their social circles, believing, correctly, that they will not be brought to justice. It's that simple. The escalation is no longer just an element of the cartels, but an atmosphere that breeds lawlessness from those that just a few years ago would have been much more discrete or not engaged in crimes at all.

This allow me to add:

One of the things that's made the situation so scary in Monterrey, Cuidad Juarez, and other areas is EXTORTION. Supposedly from what I hear from my buddies in Mty is if you own a restaurant, a store, a mechanic shop or basically any type of small business you can expect to be pressured to pay a "cuota" to some form of gang. And if you don't pay they have been known to burn down your place of business, kidnap you, attack you or your family, or just plain put a bullet in your head.

Another thing that's scary is Mexico has no real investigative process. In the US we're used to a crime being investigated, ie; witnesses being interviewed, leads being followed up on, the district attorney files formal charges, warrants being issued, arrest made, and a court process taking place with someone ending up doing time. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND MEXICO HAS NONE OF THAT! NONE! So any criminal with a half a brain doesn't have to worry about getting caught by the police. They only have to worry about stepping on another gang's toes and getting their head chopped off. Hence the barbaric way the gangs go after each other.

So now that the zetas have exposed how flawed and rotten to the core the law enforcement and judicial system is, criminals have learned how easy it is to get away with almost anything. And since shit got so bad so fast the only response the government can come up with is sent the military to chase the bad guys around the city playing cat and mouse, shooting up the place. And innocent bystanders are just collateral damage. I mean we're a couple steps away from a police state of emergency, martial law situation.