Vienna

[Massimo Potente]

I really do not understand this answer, you acknowledge the increased upselling and I argued that it was not justified, are you saying that in your opinion it is okay since it is still good value for money?

If that is what you are saying in your answer, that is fine.

I don't like upselling at all and I wanted to point it out. I was actually surprised that an indiviual provider like Angela is doing it now as well and even to a local regular. That was my initial point. I don't really think it is ok, and it is for sure not justified, but I see why it is happening and it will not affect my frequency with which I go to GT. And even if they start upselling to me, which is not impossible at all, it won't stop me from going there as long as it stays within certain boundaries.

But I don't think it makes sense to put a universal "value" stamp on anything here. I mean also to say that calling Babylon and Maxim line-ups "horrible availability" and "ulterior motifs" being in place is utter nonsense which makes me feel like I can't contribute anything on those grounds anymore hence the crossroads reference. Not even entertaining the notion of calling Babylon or Maxim scam clubs.

To sum it up: the economic principles which were discussed are not really universal in the sex industry and I find it inappropriate to try and apply them especially when terms like "value" are being used. Not to speak of "idle time" which for human beings in the sex industry might often be rather desirable and by no means is a bad thing.

It's really all relative. I mean, in the German FKK threads there recently were examples how to sleep in your car and therefore saving money otherwise spent on hotel rooms. I guess, with that in mind, Babylon, Maxim, GT are horrible deals for sure and we should all bond over camping.

[Delta Indigo]

I think this has come to a crossroads on which one side says that Line-up A is horrbile and the other side says that Line-up be is very good and every further discussion regarding that should end right there. LOL.

I really do not understand this answer, you acknowledge the increased upselling and I argued that it was not justified, are you saying that in your opinion it is okay since it is still good value for money?

If that is what you are saying in your answer, that is fine.

[Massimo Potente]

I think this has come to a crossroads on which one side says that Line-up A is horrbile and the other side says that Line-up be is very good and every further discussion regarding that should end right there. LOL.

[Delta Indigo]

I would just like to elaborate further on my point below. In Germany the situation did change but as many pointed out in the Oase thread, committing to one hour gets you better service. In Sharks, Oase, and even the notorious Paradise in Stuttgart, if I commit to one hour for 100 Euros the service is almost always to my liking.

There are still scammers, note about "Egyptian" Angelina or Angelique at Sharks who tries to get you past the 30 minute mark and then starts a routine so that you quit.

However this is usually a good compromise, 100 Euros for an hour I can live with and even enjoy. But 100 Euros for 30 minutes stops making Goldentime competitive with even the premium clubs in Germany, I have named three here. Even the situation at Oceans and Palace in Frankfurt (although I am dubious about the reports here about Palace) state that their premium service does not amount to 100 Euros.

There was no legal change in Austria as we know, and the vast majority of these girls can not make any where near as much money doing anything else, so this is a matter of greed that clients should not entertain, if no one put up with it, it would be far more rare.

Sometimes you do need to comprise for 100 for an hour is okay, I am not really cheap or into budget situations, but I hate being cheated. The main reason I visit Vienna is the see the fabulous city and enjoy the great cuisine and the mongering is secondary to me if this is the situation.

Goldentime once had a potential competitor, Centaurus, which was burned down by the owner of Goldentime according to his legal conviction. Maybe the situation would improve if there was a viable competitor, but at this rate, Maxim will be able to compete with GT.

[Delta Indigo]

Exactly my thoughts as well. I have a feeling we have a few people here on the forum with ulterior motifs. Just looking at the Babylon and maxim lineups on their sites, it looks like two scam clubs with horrible availability.

Golden Time was always my favorite in Vienna and in fact it was my first FKK, once I discovered it I abandoned the Prague mongering scene, which was never comparable. I think all these reports of upselling are making it less attractive than before, but it used to be great and I was well known there years ago. Nowadays I am not sure it is the best value for money, there are numerous Swiss clubs that charge less than the service rate at GT, service in Switzerland is a lot better the vast majority of the time.

I don't think Maxim is a scam club, they do push you to buy expensive drinks at the bar, Massimo has pointed this out, but if you say no they will stop, the staff are friendly at Maxim. I was at Maxim just once in July of last year and the lineup was think, at that point I did not think it compared to GT and was a lot more expensive, 110 Euros vs 60 Euros. However if the service price is 100 Euros at GT, then Maxim is competitive with no entrance fee.

About Babylon, I do not remember anyone promoting it here, at that price, I have a hard time believing you get what you pay for, I think the main purpose of these clubs are anonymity and discretion. This is why Aphrodesia in Zurich costs twice as much as the Globe, not really for a better lineup. That price will keep the ordinary riff raff away.

I never heard anyone say Babylon was a good deal, I personally would rather have 5 sessions in Maxim than 1 in Babylon.

I have heard again and again from people who have payed the mega bucks that it isn't worth it. I have never paid that much, but paid a lot more than I should have in Prague, Amsterdam and the like, and if you do that you never get what you paid for.

Girls will take and "steal" what they can.

Massimo, I differ with you on one point, I think the tipping has contributing to this upselling at GT. I know many people think it is polite to tip and I grew up in a tipping country, but a tip is not just a matter of good manners. A tip should be earned and something extra not something taken for granted, and if it is taken for granted, then it leads to higher rates.

I strongly disagree with the norms of tipping in the US, although I used to pay tips for years, the price on the menu should be the price and the ridiculous 20% expectation is what I would call a "scam". Anyhow if the meal I ordered was more expensive, why does the server deserve a bigger tip than if I had ordered a cheaper meal when he had to do the same amount of work?

This is the deal with prices and rates, in GT the rates and extra charges for options were well known, all this upselling is something that started in the last 5 years.

In Germany, the girls had the recent legal changes to justify their upselling, and I knew this would happen. In Austria and Switzerland however there is no such excuse for this behavior.

[Pistons]

FKK is the niche in Austria and probably globally as well. Total industry income has been dropping for years. I don't think you can imagine what kind of money was generated in Austrian brothels in the 80's, 90's and early 2 Ks, before FKKs and Laufhauses started to establish themselves. I think there is a valid argument to be made that business as is now is the better one for clients and for sure the more honest one in many ways. But money-wise, man, you can't even compare it in the slightest. Even the 3 best Vienna stripclubs combined made morey money than the 3 best FKKs in Vienna combined. That was not that long ago and in my prime years. LOL. Vienna clubs were drowning in Champagne every fricking day.

Times change indeed greatly. But 14 years ago I fucked an Italian stripper in a Barcelona strip club also for just 50 euro, and there were no entry cost. I was 19. She was 18. There were fuck shows on stage, and the Italian I scored was a solid 9. During the whole night, just 5 or 6 customers went to the room. But there was a lot of champagne flowing all over. Now standard rate was higher than 50, but she liked me apparently. Girls didn't make much, but the club did.

[Pistons]

Well, obviously it wasn't management ordering girls to ask more money for half an hours. Kinda goes without saying that it is what the girls want and they are putting the pressure on everything and everyone.

You have the same mechanic happening with taxi's several places. When idle time goes up, they try to make back the lost money by increasing the prices. Thus worsening the competitive power even more. (A New York taxi driver killed himself a few months ago because of the worsening business environment for them. He had no chance of competing with Uber who pays zero tax. But it was mainly due to increased idle time).

[Pistons]

Overall total nonsense these rates (30' 450 cash 60' 550 cash, if with card 500-600) especially considering average line up and not being sure they give you CIM and anal for this rate. Clearly a lack in customers means this raise, last breath for these ex glorious Flight To Quality clubs? They can now close yesterday for what me thinks.

Exactly my thoughts as well. I have a feeling we have a few people here on the forum with ulterior motifs. Just looking at the Babylon and maxim lineups on their sites, it looks like two scam clubs with horrible availability.

[Massimo Potente]

Let's not forget that this is what the girls want to do. As long as GT allows them to do it and charge different prices for foreigners than for locals, the girls will, without a doubt, do it. This is a business decision coming from a position of strength in my opinion. Babylon maybe as well. I find it hard to believe that they really lack customers. Generally I would expect a drop in pricing if business is bad and not an increase.

Well, obviously it wasn't management ordering girls to ask more money for half an hours. Kinda goes without saying that it is what the girls want and they are putting the pressure on everything and everyone.

As soon as you leave the boundaries of market economics, two things happen:

- The total income of the industry drops.

- Everything turns into niche products.

FKK is the niche in Austria and probably globally as well. Total industry income has been dropping for years. I don't think you can imagine what kind of money was generated in Austrian brothels in the 80's, 90's and early 2 Ks, before FKKs and Laufhauses started to establish themselves. I think there is a valid argument to be made that business as is now is the better one for clients and for sure the more honest one in many ways. But money-wise, man, you can't even compare it in the slightest. Even the 3 best Vienna stripclubs combined made morey money than the 3 best FKKs in Vienna combined. That was not that long ago and in my prime years. LOL. Vienna clubs were drowning in Champagne every fricking day.

[ChrisNYC]

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I found the advertisement.

http://www.bazar.at/wunderbar-erotic...-12449384.html

I wrote a message for her. I got the answer that it is possible to schedule the next day. I made an appointment. I got an address, the apartment is in center of Vienna 1 District. Very clean, modern with a very big bed, when she make massage.

Carla is a slim, nice and very pretty girl, knows several languages, has a sense of humor.

The man feels relaxed.

The music started in the background, I took an hour-long massage but after a moment of reflection I decided I wanted 1.5 hours.

An amazing touch, a silky body to the rhythm of music and breaths she performed a massage.

Then a massage with the whole body, gentle kisses in the body or ears, amazing feeling and excitement, then I changed the page, amazingly able to turn up.

Atmosphere with touch, virtually no hands happy end. Excellent feeling, conversation, massage, atmosphere, has a beautiful, slim body and a beautiful face.

For me the most exciting massage, more than sex in a few moments I was extreme excited.

I recommend to all those who are bored with standard escort services and want to try an amazing relaxation and an exciting massage erotic the true erotic massage.

My friends visit her too and was very glad too.

[MonSooner]

Let's not forget that this is what the girls want to do. As long as GT allows them to do it and charge different prices for foreigners than for locals, the girls will, without a doubt, do it. This is a business decision coming from a position of strength in my opinion. Babylon maybe as well. I find it hard to believe that they really lack customers. Generally I would expect a drop in pricing if business is bad and not an increase.

[AdamCki]

...Babylon increased the price because they can. Babylon clients will not change the club because of a silly 50 that they don't even feel.

Overall total nonsense these rates (30' 450 cash 60' 550 cash, if with card 500-600) especially considering average line up and not being sure they give you CIM and anal for this rate. Clearly a lack in customers means this raise, last breath for these ex glorious Flight To Quality clubs? They can now close yesterday for what me thinks.

[Pistons]

But of course, FKK pricing should move alongside the consumer price index in order to keep track with the rest of the economy. I suppose in some places it has lagged behind by 5-10 euro maybe. But demand is not always so easy either.

[Pistons]

As soon as you leave the boundaries of market economics, two things happen:

- The total income of the industry drops.

- Everything turns into niche products.

[Pistons]

I get your basic point but as service providers the ladies seem to be fed up with high expectations of clients for 60. That is what I take away from the "premium service" or whatever you may call it.

The day market economics uncouples from user demand, it is no longer market economics. At German RLD's, they are fed up with 20 or 30 euros. At Aca they are fed up with 40 euro. At most German FKK's they are fed up with 50 euro. At Artemis and gt Vienna they are fed up with 60. At Wellcum they are fed up with 70. But at the Lugano clubs the rates fell over 60% because of failed pricing and higher competition elsewhere. And the need to adjust to the market economy and user demand / user economy. Now there is one very important graph you should look at in the link I provided: Supply.