Tallinn

[Dusty Bin]

Actually, it was not humour and there is no need to defend the indefensible.

I referred to Italians because it was they who were exemplars of the points I noted, not Britons, Indians, Germans or French...

There is a reason for this. There are now direct flights from Italy for about 120Euro. This is pretty cheap and the result is that Fabrizio, Antonio and the boyz are making the trip over. This evening, most had gone home; there were noticably fewer guys with fuzzy chops wandering around in packs.

Loads of English guys go to Thailand specifically to be screwed by Thai girls. There is a large industry devoted to the care and maintenance of guys who want commercial sex. In Tallinn, there is not, but many guys, but particularly noticably, this summer, Italian guys who think all Estonian women are on the game and will go all round heeled for a poorly groomed Italian with no money...
I doubt that in Thailand there are many young Britons walking the street in normal downtown areas, approaching girls and doing the same in places where ordinary people go for a night out with their friends...

I think that other posters who have been in Tallinn in recent weeks will have seem the same as I.

I did not take your post the wrong way, I understood exactly what you were trying to say, but if you are familiar with the 'style' of your working class countrymen, you will understand the points I was making. The Italians are, in this respect, very different to the Britons, who almost universally have plenty of money and a somewhat better set of manners. Poor Finns usually travel with their wives to buy beer and food, Germans and Spanish usually with families.
I saw three of the most gorgeous girls last night. It turned out that they were with three Britons over for the weekend. When I saw them together I could understand how the guys had done so well. The Britons were as well dressed as their girls, they behaved well with them and to make the final seal on the deal, it was obvious that some time had been spent, in the afternoon, with the three beauties, doing some shopping. They made a very attractive group, a pleasure to see and I am certain that all six had a very pleasant time.
There is a difference.

[Art68]

I think Dusty Bin's analysis is closest to what I personally saw.

While it is too extreme to say that there are skinheads rampaging down the streets of Estonia beating up anybody of a darker complexion, it is also too extreme to say that they would ignore such people and concentrate on scandinavian tourists. I think it would be more like they would beat up a black person, but if none were around they would find the nearest finnish guy and beat him up. Or Italian. Or all of them.

Of course I'm sure there are some, but I personally saw none, and even forgetting them, I didn't personally feel any bad or unfriendly looks from people, just slightly bemused or curious. I think if the circumstances were right for lots of skinhead groups to appear, you would also feel unfriendliness from a lot of "normal" people, the skinheads being an extreme manifestation of the dislike most people would have. However most Estonian people in my opinion were friendly. If there are some extremist groups I feel it would be the exception not the rule.

Anyway, I will say this, and I think any visible minority member who has spent his whole life in a European country would agree with me, you develop a kind of "6th sense" a kind of early warning system when you go anywhere. Without really consciously thinking about it, you look to see the kind of looks or the kind of silences that greet you. You are always that little bit extra aware, especially when you go into a place you have never been or you are not that familiar with. The one good thing about extremist racists is that they are not such good actors, you can pretty much tell within a couple of seconds of looking at the hostility in their eyes that it's a good time to leave. So, even if there are such dangers in Estonia, I doubt I or many other minority posters would just casually stroll in without thinking or keeping an eye out and say something foolish like, "Hey guys! Where de white women at?"

Of course, nobody can guarantee a 100 % safety but with common sense you can reduce the chances of something bad happening to a minimum.

[Alejandro66]

Dusty bin,

I am half-italian and, frankly, I think you can keep your suggestions for yourself.

I think that any of us, expatriate or long-term living in a foreing country, is able to write a list of suggestions for people new to the scene.

And this applies to any "newbie", no matter where they come from: Germiany, Usa, England or Tonga Islands.

I am living in Thailand and I could write a book about "how middle aged english man are screwed by young and cute thai girls".

But there is no point in semi-racist remarks like yours.

I don't want to defend Italians but I find this kind of humour a little bit silly.

I hope you don't take this post in the worng way.

Regards,

Alejandro

[Dusty Bin]

Somebody is talking out of his bum...

For some reason that I do not know, a poster is writing inaccurate stuff about skinheads, violence and discrimination.

I live here.

I do not see skinheads, but I am not blind.

Among some groups it is fashionable to have very cropped hair. Some of these guys belong to 'sporting clubs' and some of these groups are racist.

But, they are not skinheads in the sense that a Briton or German might recognise. Nor is there any great degree of street crime or violence, other than the normal puppy fights between drunk teenagers that provide more amusement and spectacle for both locals and tourists than threat to anyone.

It is true that if you get drunk enough that you can not control yourself, or that you make yourself a victim, then you may, just as anywhere else, find yourself in unpleasant circumstances, but then the same would apply in any city in any part of the world.

BTW, I do not live in an expat ghetto, I live in a working class suburb, I am safe from harm, even though I am the only foreigner living within a kilometer in any direction.

While it is true that the recent influx of European travellers has changed the character of the city's social scene (for the worse -IMHO) the place is friendly and fun.

BTW - notes to Italian guys!
1) Not all women in clubs are prostitutes! Most are not!
2) Spend some money guys, this is a relatively poor country, but you guys make it look like you are coming from a third world nation.
3) Please do a reality check--- when you are hitting on a woman why make the women laugh at you by trying to pull a woman old enough to be your mother?
4) In Europe, men commonly use an item of male grooming called a razor. They can be bought in many shops and kiosks, try using one sometimes!
5) Stay in an hotel, not a hostel. That one letter makes a lot of difference between being a member of the travelling poor and being a respectable traveller!

These notes bought to you by a guy who was out clubbing last night and saw Italians getting a giggle from women at every turn. The tarts will take your money (while laughing), the rest were just laughing!

[Snail]

'Their skinheads hate germans and mostly Swedish and Finish guys. I have seen Swedish and Finish guys beeing badly beaten of Skinheads. They dont like Nordic people because they come and take their women. Its better if you look like indian, black or russian or english look, but not Scandinavian or worse look like germs.'

Milky Boy,

With all due respect, I kindly disagree with you on the racial hatred. Probably their skinheads don't like Swedes, Finns or Germans but local Estonian people are genetically close to them. Basically they don't like people of black (black dick is sth different for the local women), Asian, Arab or maybe Hispanic looks. Its a pure biological thing and its got nothing to do with alien culture. Although I have never been to Estonia, I do believe what you have experienced is very unusual. posting the words 'Its better if you look.' is somewhat misleading for the nonwhite participants on the forum. I lived in the Scandinavia for more than 7 yrs and I do know whats on their minds. Skinheads are virtually the same all over East Europe and there is no reason for skinheads in Estonia to do sth radical against white while their conterparts in Russia do the minorities.

EDITOR's NOTE: Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to add standard capitalization throughout the text. To avoid delays in future reports, please refrain from using the "chat room" style of writing with no capital lettering. Thanks!

[Milky Boy]

Compare with other cities in Baltic girls at least talk english, and its more secure place. just avoid other cities in baltic coutries. In wintertime Thallin will be better but still never be as it was in 1990-1995. Forget it guys! Other bigger cities in baltic are even worse. If you want experience Estonia as it was 10 years ago, go to belurussia, or Russia. Its little truble with visa but its worse it.

[Milky Boy]

Yes,

Their skinheads hate germans and mostly Swedish and Finish guys. I have seen Swedish and Finish guys beeing badly beaten of Skinheads. They dont like Nordic people because they come and take their women. Its better if you look like indian, black or russian or english look, but not Scandinavian or worse look like germs. But dont worry, in tallin even Swedish and other nordic people have no problem if they are not alone at nights and alone in Discos.

[Art68]

HRCHRISTER,

I appreciate what you are saying, but I wouldn't think of living anywhere but Tallinn just purely because I think most of the jobs (for non-Estonians) are in Tallinn. But Parnu seemed a nice place to visit. Anyway, there's a lot of towns in the UK I wouldn't choose to live either (and I'm sure there are towns in Eastern Germany I would not choose to live either). Local arseholes are local arseholes anywhere.

I'm sure there are problems like what you are describing but I do not believe it is anywhere near as say Russia.

[Hrchrister]

Art68. mmmh...i would be a little bit careful living other places than Tallinn in Estonia if your not nordic looking. In the west part you got Pärnu, where it is a lot of rasism against all foreigners. I have been there a lot, and i can't count how many times local men has made trouble just because i have lot of girlfriends there (i'm kinda big, so they just send me ugly sights and comments, but i have seen other tourist been beaten the hell of).
And in the eastern part, like Tartu and other cities, you got skinheads, and a lot of skeptism towards minorities. This is in general. Use you money in other countries.

[Art68]

HRCHRISTER: I didn't say I got less or more smiles this year, I just said that nobody even looked at me twice this year because now they are so used to seeing different people. This means that whereas before you would get checked out because you were unique, and maybe you could start a conversation from that, now you can't. (People would come up to me last summer and start conversations, now they didn't). I also wouldn't say it's necessarily that you're in a minority they think you're dirty or sleazy, but unfortunately they can tell automatically that you are not from there, therefore chances are you are a tourist, and as a male tourist on his own, they probably automatically assume you're a sex tourist... so you must be dirty and sleazy just like all the other tourists! The only difference really is that they can identify you as a tourist a lot faster! Probably also true of people from mediterranean countries like Spain or Italy or Portugal who often don't look like the average Estonian.

But I never got that feeling anyway, people were always nice. Then again, I made it a point to learn some basic estonian phrases the first time I went and I always try and say "hello" and "please" in estonian, it's amazing how far that takes you (unlike, say, France).

DUSTY BIN: From what I saw in the expat bars this year, I can only imagine how pissed off resident foreigners are now that the "floods" are coming in. I don't even live there and I was pissed off! The first time I went, I basically went out with some Brits and Irish people from the consulates there and in St Petersburg. This year, even though there were tons of Brits I stayed as far away as possible. The only good thing about the Brits is that yes, they do seem to want to spend their money, and also, as drunk as they get, there's still some sort of repression thing happening, they won't as blatantly approach girls for paid sex - I don't think they've really gained this reputation in a lot of countries.

But the good news about Estonia is that really, outside the old town and centre, most tourists don't seem to want to venture (ok the Finns, but they have a longer history with Estonia and they have a language advantage). I think this means there are still lots of places in Estonia to see and adventure in. Just trying to work out my finances to see how I could spend a year there!

[Dusty Bin]

Well, that was a bit of a surprise to the girls... I just spoke with a girl who advertises with them. She said to me that she now understood why her phone had stopped ringing the last few days.

According to the info, they are selling the site. My guess is moving the server to Estonia or Russia more like...

The tourism thing is getting a bit silly, I agree, but not in quite the way that others suggest. What has actually happened is that the market is meeting demand, so now when I go out, it is bloody hard to tell the civilians from professionals, especially when they do not let on for some time. Also, the places to go are now having to change. Frankly, neither I nor other residents are over chuffed when girls are continually approached by Italians, Germans and to a degree Britons. At least the Britons have some money, want to spend it and there are relatively few of them. Other travellers often seem to be members of the 'travelling poor'. So now, we seek new places and leave the old haunts to tourists. I expect that dress codes will start to make an appearance and a few more members clubs. I find myself looking forward to the winter months once more.

[Hrchrister]

Art68
I have noticed the same as you. Tallinn is being destroyed. Last year - and the year before - was fantastic. This year everything has changed (i've been there tree times this summer).
My girlfriends (and girls i meet when i'm going out) are constantly talking in anger about the "touristmen who are coming to Tallinn just to get laid and then go home".
They are also beginning to notice the same thing that girls in the west have noticed in many years: how sleasy and dirty the minority-boys from Uk, Germany, etc are. Not to mention what they say about the Italians! No wonder that you received less smiles this year, even if you where behaving nice.

I will avoid Tallinn from now on. I know exactly where to go next time to get that "Tallinn-feeling" again. And thats not in Estonia. Tallinn are destroyed. And now the houses are closing down. It cant be worse.
I love Tallinn, but my advice to fellow mongers: choose other cities.

[Maximus]

Right address is www.sihteeriopisto.net. Starting from August escort advertisement has been illegal in Finland (publishing contact information of working girls is considered pimping) so they have closed big parts of the site for time being.

[Art68]

DB,

"some of the girls do not exactly earn a fortune for shagging us ugly, drunken buggers!"

I resent your description of us above.

I ALWAYS tip well!

[Dusty Bin]

Current brothels will be closed. The action is taken against pimps. Apartments shared by girls will continue and as there is nothing to stop people renting a room for short periods, my guess is that the existing places will close and reopen on the basis that the punter pays to rent a room from the managment and selects a gril to whom he pays a fee.

In appearance at least there is no pimpage and the system carries on.

Was talking with a girl about this matter earlier today. Also, expect to see an expansion in sites such as Secretary Academy (sihiteeriopisto.fi) I have probably not got the name right, can a Finnish guy correct me? Thanks.

My guess is that prices will be a bit up and down to start with, but will generally end up higher. Perhaps not a bad thing, some of the girls do not exactly earn a fortune for shagging us ugly, drunken buggers!