General Info

[Helena Moscow]

Interesting study in price elasticity. I'll bet there's an economics PhD thesis in there somewhere for a P4P Index as an economic indicator. As the P4P hits the "hockey stick", inflation is sure to follow. It can't all be the fall in the USD.

I had coffee today with a business associate today (in the USA) who grew up in Moscow and was back visiting relatives with her son this past summer. She complained that she spent $100 a day "on nothing" just walking around. As Helena said the other day, you blow $100 on Ice Cream without thinking.

Interesting idea about measuring the inflation. Girls have flair =)) But look. Today I refused to drink shampain from Radisson SAS mini-bar. Because a 0,3L bottle of Moet was 2800 rub (115$). This price really made me feel stressed, so I had to eat a huge portion of burger with french fries to relax (about 600rub). A bottle of simple wine was about 100$. Nothing excllusive, just some cheap red wine. Preferred a bar of chocolate with tea (didn't check the bill not to get stressed again). In a hotel which is far from being the most expensive in the city. Is it normal?
P.s. If they make us, girls, so much stressed with prices, we will have to spend more money in gyms, beauty salons and shops (because we tend to eat, gain weight and buy more when worry). Someone has to pay bills finally. Who do you think this can be?...

[Jake993]

What does P4P stand for?

Sorry, I am new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Russia

That's the basic description.

But it's basically a place you go in a taxi or other car to find a working girl. It can take several forms, but the most contemporary form is one where you arrive in a car to a "known" location. A woman (mamsan - mamochka) comes out and asks what price range you are looking for. Then, she calls out to a group of anywhere between 12 and 25 girls and the ones who agree to "work" in that price range come out in from of the car (often in the headlights) where you can inspect the girls without leaving the car. If you see one you like, then the mamasan calls her over and brokers a deal. You pay your money and take her back to your place.

Typically these days, the girls who participate in Tochkas are from the country or from other cities. Typically these girls are not very sophisticated and often can be considered homeless. Girls who participate in Tochkas will accept a lot less money for sex than many other girls. Also, Tochkas are reputed to be controlled by the mob (big surprise) so you are advised to watch your step. The quality of the girls at Tochkas is all over the map. Some are quite "rough around the edges" while some are diamonds in the rough.

If I have missed any important details guys, please do chime in here.

Jake

[Jake993]

What does P4P stand for?

Sorry, I am new.

Pay for pleasure

Price for pussy

Take your pick!

[Jake993]

Jake

Curious about whether you had paid your Night Flight floozie in advance.

My experience has been to never pay in the club or prior to services being rendered.

Guido88

Yeah, well. Yes I paid her as soon as we got in the room. I know, I know not such a good idea considering the circumstances. Frankly, I had a bad feeling about the whole affair as soon as she mentioned the crack about meeting me at the coat room. In hindsight, I should bailed out earlier and gone to Safari Lodge. Chalk one up to experience.

[Guido88]

Jake

Curious about whether you had paid your Night Flight floozie in advance.

My experience has been to never pay in the club or prior to services being rendered.

Then if there is an issue with too many rules or poor performance the payment can be adjusted accordingly. Seems as though the girls most demanding of payment in advance are frequently the poorest for service quality.

Perhaps they have had other complaints?

The Russian women know they can cite rules and get away with things with foreigners that would never be tolerated by a Russian man. She does not tell you what to do; it’s the other way around.

As Doc said a couple of years ago “ The Russian women know their place and like it that way.” You may need to remind them occasionally, its not all about her. She has been bought & with good performance will be paid for.

Guido88

[Jake993]

Excellent observation and post. I've been at NF when exactly the same mood was lingering in the air. Haggling or negotiating a price below that which a girl thinks she should work for can kill the eroticism. Sometimes just a misunderstanding, but if the mood is gone it can be hard to kickstart it.

I try to keep P4P as fun as possible and even if it is a business deal, I don't like to be reminded of it.

Skank,

You said it right there. A misunderstanding can kill the mood.

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish a hard bargainer from a reluctant participant. And if it starts out wrong, it's not likely to get back in track. As the saying goes, there is no free lunch.

Interesting study in price elasticity. I'll bet there's an economics PhD thesis in there somewhere for a P4P Index as an economic indicator. As the P4P hits the "hockey stick", inflation is sure to follow. It can't all be the fall in the USD.

I had coffee today with a business associate today (in the USA) who grew up in Moscow and was back visiting relatives with her son this past summer. She complained that she spent $100 a day "on nothing" just walking around. As Helena said the other day, you blow $100 on Ice Cream without thinking.

But the demand will shift - if you look at some of the Rio de Janeiro posts, you will see that the GDP's down there now gravitate towards Europeans (Italians in particular) because the Euro is not as adversely affected as the buck. You have to learn to speak Italian (or at least English with an Italian accent) or the garrotas will run the other way. I'm sure the Moscow NF girls will soon give up on the Amerikanits because we won't be able to afford it.

Tochkas anyone?

[Doctor_Skank]

Here's my point - I negotiated a price closer to the 200/5 rate and neither one of us was happy. She was angry because she was feeling underpaid for her trouble and I was pissed off because I felt like I was getting nothing for my money. It was a lose - lose deal.

I hope it was just on off night at Night Flight and not a sign of things to come.

Excellent observation and post. I've been at NF when exactly the same mood was lingering in the air. Haggling or negotiating a price below that which a girl thinks she should work for can kill the eroticism. Sometimes just a misunderstanding, but if the mood is gone it can be hard to kickstart it.

I try to keep P4P as fun as possible and even if it is a business deal, I don't like to be reminded of it.

[Doctor_Skank]

Skank, have you gone out of cash? Too many negative remarks from you during these days. Before you seemed more cheerful. May be it's really time to change place for a cheaper? No reason to come and be unhappy. Rates don't appear from heaven. If they grow it means people pay. As far as I know things in NF are going fine. Same amount of work for more cash. Some days busy, some empty. Not a big deal. The value of cash is, of course, going down, but this we can't help.

Yes, I do know that "Solaris" exists. And I know that not each man will want to go there. But it's more affordable than NF. May be it makes sense for you to try

I really faux appreciate your facetious comments Helena, that's very sweet.

I thought you might actually know some more details about Solaris, my Russian friends recommended it to me. Not sure on their taste though...

But you are partially right, I am a bit down on Moscow. It's not a lack of cash, I have work in Moscow so as prices go up I make more money. I'm making a lot of money off of the booming economy, so I am not complaining about that per se. And thankfully I don't live in Moscow, so I don't have to deal with the everyday stress of Moscow's transportation implosion.

I do however feel like the Moscow I fell in love with has changed forever. I am not alone in this feeling, many of my Muscovite friends also lament that they don't recognize the city anymore and are tired of the increasing tension in the city. Mere success and money haven't shielded them from this. Many have left the city to live in Europe, at least part time. Others live outside of town and only come to the center when they have to. They used to come in only at night, but now even the nights are stuffed with traffic in the center. Many of my friends are quite successful businessmen and professionals, some mere students. Both sides of the coin, but both sides feeling the draining effects of daily life.

I still go out to clubs and enjoy my Moscow friends, enjoy meeting fun young girls and having sex with them a few times... staying in contact with some while some fade away... strolling through parts of the city I have never been to before, discovering some new hidden Moscow treasure. It certainly isn't all negative and Moscow does continue to impress and fascinate me, but it isn't as erotically exciting as it once was.

Of course we knew Moscow would change as any city growing in size and wealth so quickly will have to make many compromises and sacrifice some of its character. A new Moscow is born and is in many ways very exciting. For someone first discovering Moscow, it may be the Moscow they fall in love with... but it's not the one I did. Some things are very positive. Moscow City is going to have a very interesting character for example, a project I am involved with. Some of it is ugly as hell, but the complex as a whole will be unique for the region and a true center of power. With time, Moscow's historical and cultural sites will be renovated... provided they can all be rescued from the current construction and speculation boom.

But much of the Moscow I fell in love with, "old Moscow", which for me still maintained elements of both Csarist and Communist glory as well as showing the signs of perestroikan decay, the excitement and opportunity of glasnost and the despair and fear of the 98 bank crisis and which mixed into a wildly erotic cocktail of emotions and impressions during my first years of acquaintance with Moscow... is rapidly becoming just another booming, over-sized and soulless moloch.

I always used to say "as soon as Moscow gets a Starbucks, it's time to leave." Moscow got its first Starbucks about 4 months ago.

Well I am not going to "leave" Moscow and I still look forward to every trip to Moscow, but isn't as exciting for me anymore as it once was.

As for prices, of course higher prices match the pace of the city. It isn't a sex tourist destination, it's a playground for rich businessmen. It hasn't been a cheap place for sex for a few years now. For someone looking for a pure sex holiday, Moscow is only fun if you have money to burn. Equally beautiful girls can be had at lower prices elsewhere, not to mention the daily costs in Moscow which are the highest in the world for expats. But again, if you don't have a problem spending $1000-1500 on a night of clubs, parties and sex with prostitutes, Moscow still has a great mix of options.

I was fortunate enough to do business in Moscow, so I haven't been a "tourist" there for a few years. The prices don't shock me, even if I feel they are totally inflated. Market determines prices, even if the market isn't based on values corresponding to real worth. Girls working at NF or independently will take as much money as they can get and work as economically as they can... meaning as little as they can. That's economics 101 for the service industry.

For someone who travels though, and has opportunities to experience p4p in other places, not to mention gets free sex from happy and appreciative girls, it is hard to justify a $500 fuck, particularly if she has a NF-attitude as many of them do. As I have often said, when engaging in p4p, I want to be the one doing the fucking, not the one being fucked.

I won't even get into the fact that I haven't found most high-priced hos at NF to be that attractive... mostly 7s and 8s... not exactly models.

In any case, I'll be back in Moscow next week.. so my mood is improving already...

[Helena Moscow]

Well for most of us when it comes to P4P, it simply means "go somewhere else".

Seems to me most girls working NF and even CF go home alone... or maybe I am just not staying long enough to seem them score.

Skank, have you gone out of cash? Too many negative remarks from you during these days. Before you seemed more cheerful. May be it's really time to change place for a cheaper? No reason to come and be unhappy. Rates don't appear from heaven. If they grow it means people pay. As far as I know things in NF are going fine. Same amount of work for more cash. Some days busy, some empty. Not a big deal. The value of cash is, of course, going down, but this we can't help.

BTW Helena, know anything about Solaris in Hotel Cosmos? I had the displeasure of staying there for a night about 4 weeks ago and wanted to check out the club, which is supposedly full of p4p, but unfortunately I went to a party where they were serving wine and vodka for free. That is indeed a horrible combination.

Yes, I do know that "Solaris" exists. And I know that not each man will want to go there. But it's more affordable than NF. May be it makes sense for you to try

[Jake993]

well of course i know j993, it was really a no-brainer...

i'm just hoping helena will fork out some more info for us boys... and naively hoping that there is still some chance of rescuing those "poor" girls from themselves... besides that, i'd be interested to know how many girls actually score at nf/cf. i've been there late quite a few times and seen many girls leaving alone. so i am curious if the 500/2 vs. 200/5 system only serves a few top girls and many are ending up with 500/0 or if the odds play in favor of the whole stock and they all end up scoring 3-4 times a week at least.

dr. s,

you are referring to "cf". i'm not familiar with that one. maybe i'm just being dense.

you know, perhaps the crowd at nf has changed. a few weeks ago, i was at a business dinner which ended at 12:30 am. the guys i was with were not drinkers so i had all my faculties when i arrived at my rented apartment which was in the same building as nf. i brushed my teeth, freshened up and decided to go downstairs to seek some company. by then it was probably no later than 1:40 am. granted is was a wednesday or thursday night but there were almost no guys there and probably 20 girls lounging about looking bored. while i'm no james bond, i'm no [CodeWord134] wee herman either, but i felt like it was me that had to do the selling. there was no enthusiasm what-so-ever and when i did finally engage in conversation, the indifference was palpable. it was like they had all "given up" for the night and no one wanted to be seen as being the one to "take a dive". in fact, when i did finally find one i liked and negotiated a reasonable fee, she asked me to go to the men's room and that she would meet me by the coat check. she obviously did not want to be seen leaving with me. geez - maybe i am [CodeWord134] wee herman.

when i got her back to my place, i could see that she really was beautiful. great body, nice face - but that was it. she had more rules than my 5th grade teacher. do this - don't do that. it was clearly all about her - not about me. i think she forgot who the customer was. without going to detail, she over promised and under delivered. worst nf experience ever. after 45 minutes i asked her to leave. maybe that was her plan all along. if so, shame on me.

here's my point - i negotiated a price closer to the 200/5 rate and neither one of us was happy. she was angry because she was feeling underpaid for her trouble and i was pissed off because i felt like i was getting nothing for my money. it was a lose - lose deal.

i hope it was just on off night at night flight and not a sign of things to come.

[Doctor_Skank]

Come on Dr. S, you know the answer to that. They will will tell you 2x$500 anytime. It's easier on the equipment.

Well of course I know J993, it was really a no-brainer...

I'm just hoping Helena will fork out some more info for us boys... and naively hoping that there is still some chance of rescuing those "poor" girls from themselves... Besides that, I'd be interested to know how many girls actually score at NF/CF. I've been there late quite a few times and seen many girls leaving alone. So I am curious if the 500/2 vs. 200/5 system only serves a few top girls and many are ending up with 500/0 or if the odds play in favor of the whole stock and they all end up scoring 3-4 times a week at least.

BTW Helena, know anything about Solaris in Hotel Cosmos? I had the displeasure of staying there for a night about 4 weeks ago and wanted to check out the club, which is supposedly full of p4p, but unfortunately I went to a party where they were serving wine and vodka for free. That is indeed a horrible combination.

[Jake993]

Well for most of us when it comes to P4P, it simply means "go somewhere else".

How's business BTW? Is the market good now with all the cash flowing or is it slow? Seems to me most girls working NF and even CF go home alone... or maybe I am just not staying long enough to seem them score.

Or do girls work with the motto "scoring $500 twice a week is better than scoring $200 five times a week"?

Come on Dr. S, you know the answer to that. They will will tell you 2x$500 anytime. It's easier on the equipment.

I took a business client out for dinner to Cafe Pushkin a few weeks back and just about spit up my after dinner espresso when I saw the bill. I almost called Helena to borrow money but thought better of it.

Fortunately, I'm going to Rio de Janeiro next week so I will get a little price relief. But it will be short lived if the dollar doesn't stop falling! We may all need to find another hobby!

[Doctor_Skank]

And it's not so comfortable for us, too. Girls have to become more expensive, and they will. Hurry up )

Well for most of us when it comes to P4P, it simply means "go somewhere else".

How's business BTW? Is the market good now with all the cash flowing or is it slow? Seems to me most girls working NF and even CF go home alone... or maybe I am just not staying long enough to seem them score.

Or do girls work with the motto "scoring $500 twice a week is better than scoring $200 five times a week"?

[Helena Moscow]

Moscow is becoming more like London everyday.

Jake, you right, all get's crazy expensive here. In papers they write that food got 30% more expensive within the previous month, but everybody knows that really it was 150%. All bills increased in proportion. 100$ is becoming small change for icecream. And it's not so comfortable for us, too. Girls have to become more expensive, and they will. Hurry up )

[Jake993]

So that's a "no"?

BTW, what's price levels at now in Moscow?

Outcall/freelancers/agencies:
$100/hour minimum 2 hours? At least that's what most freelancers seem to be hovering around.

Incall/salons:
$70-100/hour

Hotels/pickup bars:

$200-500

Dr. S,

You are very close.

As of a few weeks ago, Incall/Salons have been creeping up. More like $80 - $120.

Outcall - You are about right although signs of inflation are showing up. Those who advertise on the web are holding firm (THANK YOU GIRLS!!).

Hotels/Pickup bars - If you can find one for $200, then you must be at the Boarhouse. That's about it. I stopped by the Ritz Carleton and just about choked on my martini olive. Those girls are pegging their rates to the room rate at the RC. Even Night Flight girls are jacking the rates up.

Moscow is becoming more like London everyday.