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03-21-06 11:49 #258
Strav & Doc,
Even the Russians replied to my emails, and the agency I contacted after Rick's problem sorted out my visa invitation within 24hrs, then gave me the apartment I booked (which is a surprise because, as Strav said, I never got the one I booked in Ukraine). But we can close the debate here....
Blastoff,
Just do a search for "Tochka", there are tons of posts on that already (in particular by CA_T when he originally posted the picture you refer to
). You'll need a car and to speak Russian in the first place and, reading your previous posts and your concern about safety and mafia, I don't think you should go to a tochka. There are plenty of other opportunities in Moscow.
Jim
Edited: Didn't see that Doc has posted a very detailed explanation while I was typing
. I'll just add one thing: You should be able to speak Russian....
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03-21-06 11:34 #257
To tochka or not to tochka, that is the question
Tochka:
Tochka means "point" and is essentially Moscow's form of street prostitution. The tochkas (actually tochki) are organised by the mafia (there's your mafia if you are really looking for it) and are conducted nightly from about dusk til dawn. There can be numerous tochkas all over the city, anywhere from the outskirts to the center.
For example, you will usually find tochkas on Leninsky prospekt, Leningradsky prospekt, behind the "3 train stations", on the Garden Ring, Mira Prospekt, near Lubyanka etc. They aren't confined to a single place and can often be in the same place for a few days or weeks, or move nightly. There is no way you can just "go to a tochka" that is at a particular place. You will have to take a taxi.
Finding tochkas:
Take a taxi as stated above. The best time to look is after about 9pm, that's when most girls show up for duty. When you flag down a taxi, ask him to take you to a tochka. Either he will say ok and try and drive you around until he finds one, or he will refuse and drive away. Some people dont want to take you there because of the danger of the police stopping them. The police often hang around known tochka areas hoping to stop your car and get a bribe. Before you go on a tochka tour, make sure your docs are in order, including your visa registration. Some drivers, particularly older ones, may be offended by your request or simply not know what you mean or where to go. If you cant find a taxi, you may pick up a taxi in front of CF (Boarhouse), which is across from Kursky train station. The drivers there will charge you more, but they will also know where to go.
The driver will drive on the road to those areas where he thinks he might find a tochka, usually the areas I mentioned above, Leninsky prospekt, Leningradsky prospekt, behind the "3 train stations", on the Garden Ring, Mira Prospekt, near Lubyanka etc. There he will see a woman standing along side the road seeking eye contact with drivers. She is the "beacon girl". He will stop in front of her and she will tell him which way to drive to find the tochka. Usually it is in a back alley or side street near her. Then the driver will drive to the area and you will see a mamachka (madam who organises the girls) and probably some other customers. Often there will be a few vans parked nearby in which the girls wait for customers. In the summer the girls may be milling about outside.
Viewing the menu:
Once there, you will have to talk to the mamachka. It definitely helps to speak at least basic Russian, don't expect her to speak English. She will tell you the prices at that particular tochka and ask you which girls you want to see. The prices may be in rubles or dollars.
Lately the prices are as follows:
$100 (3000 rubles): entry level girls, usually pretty skanky, 4-6 in quality
$150 (4500 rubles): mid-level girls, 6-7 in quality, occasional gems
$200 (6000 rubles): so-called top girls, 6-8 in quality
Sometimes there are $80 (2500 rubles) categories (really skanky) or even $250 (7500 rubles) categories.
Price for a particular girl may vary depending on time of day and particularly day of the week. For example a $100 girl may go for $150 on a Saturday night or a $200 girl for $150 on a Monday night etc. Generally Monday-Wednesday are my favorite nights in terms of price and selection, since there is less competition.
After you tell the mamachka which category you want, she will yell out loud "$100" or "4500 rubles" or whatever and the girls will line up in front of the car.
The size of the tochka also varies, from 1 girl to 50. On average there are about 10 girls in each category.
After making your selection, you pay the mamachka, wait for your girl to arrive and leave.
You should select wisely and pay attention to details. Of course it is at night, but try to get a look at her body (she will open her coat if you tell her to do so), look at her teeth or whatever. If nothing is available, you may go to another tochka.
Driving to the apartment or hotel:
This is the "fun part", as the police do prowl the streets looking to stop cars with tochka girls and their customers. Some tochkas are in cahoots with the police and may set you up. If you are stopped, remain calm. You are in no physical danger. It is all about a bribe. They will examine your docs and if all is ok leave you alone. They will probably find a problem with her docs, as she is probably not from Moscow and may not even be Russian, instead being from Ukraine, Moldava or Belarus. If they take her back to the squad car or say she must go to station you can either let her go (and lose your money) or bribe the cops. It should cost between ($20-50) 500-1500 rubles "straff".
If you make it back to the hotel or apartment ok (90% of the time you will not be stopped) you are home free.
Paying the taxi:
The taxi should get between 500-700 rubles for his services, depending on the length of your tour and how many tochkas were visited.
The deal:
The girl is yours until about 8am the next day, as much sex as you want or can handle. Normally they will kiss and give great GFE. Anal is an option, but up to her. Money talks.
The damage:
At this point you may be asking yourself "why tochka??" as it can be an expensive endeavour:
Assuming you choose a mid-level girl:
$150: the girl
$25: the taxi
$25: possible militia bribe
$10: tip for girl
You are already at $210 dollars, which will also buy you sex elsewhere.
So "Why tochka"?
First of all, its an adventure you'll never forget. Anyone who has done it admits that the whole process can be fun... driving around the city, dirty back alleys, the element of danger, the mafia, the cops, the "skankiness".
Second of all, you get the girl all-night. She is in many ways at your mercy. Generally speaking, they do everything and if you are both nice and "demanding", you will get all you want.
Third, the girls. They are often pretty common girls, very basic, but fun and suprisingly sweet. Some of my all time favorites are from the tochka.
"Why not tochka"
Tochka girls are almost the lowest on the pro sex food chain, besides the "vodka *****s" down by the Kievsky Voksal. Some are forced into the trade, many don't really enjoy their work, the can be desperate. You should always take care of all health issues and be careful. These girls never get to chose whom they fuck. Sometimes they get beaten or sold out to groups of men. It is the gateway to a darker side of the sex trade in Russia and one you may or may not want to enter. I personally never got past the gate and dont want to. I've almost always enjoyed my tochka girls, but do realize that even as nice as I might have been to them, their lives are hardly full of sunshine and happiness. Many save the meagre earnings from their work and send it home to mama or papa.. or to their boyfriends. They earn about 35% of what you paid the mamachka. Some of them are forced to stay in Moscow to "earn off" the price it took to get them there from Moldava or Belarus. Many are treated as "goods". They usually live together with other girls in Moscow's suburbs. There are of course many independent "regular" girls working tochka as well, but you never know what you are going to get and never know what the girl's past, future or fate holds.
That's the tochka story, a Moscow institution.
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03-21-06 10:20 #256
Many thanks
Thanks for your advices on the Mafia situation in Moscow. I feel more confident with my trip now.
Can you guys explain more to me about the "Tochcas" please. I saw a photo of about 20 girls in a semi circle with a car head lights shining on them on this site but don't fully understand how it works and how I can meet up with the organises of these "Tochcas" so I can meet these girls.
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03-21-06 08:45 #255
Russian roulette
Strav:
Yes, it seems that Rick has been Russified... he always replied to my mails within 24 hours as I WAS a regular customer, so maybe he prioritized. Not really sound business practice from a service-oriented US point of view, but for Russians completely normal.
Ca_T:
As for Sveta, she practices Russian "beezness" as well. I actually had an apartment booked from her and she cancelled at the last second claiming a technical problem. I booked through someone else and then on that trip met another monger who was staying in that same apartment I had originally booked from Sveta... so I had been dumped for him since he was staying longer than I. So Russia is Russia. Its exactly the same in Kiev, where bait and switch is not only a regular practice with internet girls, but with apts as well.
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03-21-06 05:26 #254
GJ,
I had the same problem with writing to Rick at Moscow-Star. It wasn't until I started writing to him at enjoymosow.com that I finally received a reply.
It seems as if Rick doesn't read the emails at Moscow-Star, just at enjoymoscow.
I think what Doc means is that you should select and book your apartment from those listed on Moscow-Star. They are better located and in better condition than those listed on enjoymoscow.com.
But, in order to book those Moscow-Star apartments, you have to write to Rick at enjoymoscow.com.
I think Rick has been in Russia too long, he thinks just like a Russian! LOL
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03-21-06 02:08 #253Well, I did tried to book from the moscow-star site last year, after Rick has taken it over from CA_T. Apart from an automatic email saying that they received my booking and will come back to me within 48hrs, I never heard from them again. I sent them reminders after reminders, and lost 10 days. Had to find another site which can rent me an apartment and send me an invitation letter in a hurry.
Originally Posted by Doctor_Skank
Needless to say, I fully agree with Cicciolino and certainly won't use Rick's services in the future. Even if his apartments are all booked already and he doesn't need my business, he could have the courtesy to reply to my emails and not leave me sitting there waiting and wasting my time.
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03-20-06 17:33 #252 Originally Posted by Blastoff
Dear Blastoff,
all these terrible stopies were true 10-15 years ago. Now mafia guys grew up and more interested in oil, gas and banking instead of poor tourists and working girls. So, relax and have fun! Nobody will touch you if you not ask. And most of girls here (I just don't know about tochkas) are not involved in crime.
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03-20-06 10:16 #251
BO... Actually I was just going to write to tell you that after consideration, I have been held hostage several times... usually by two girls, in all cases both were pack'n and I noticed they both had a couple of bullets displayed for most of the night! On top of it all, they did demand money the next day. I guess at the time, I didn't realize that they were connected, even though I did every thing I could throughout the night to stay connected with them, they kept submitting me to all kinds of torture throughout the night. I remember screaming a few times, but I've lost most of my memories of exactly what they were doing could have involved my genitals, but I don't think there were any electric cords attached! I guess I'm going to have to be more aware of my situation!
Actually it is usually easier to get around Moscow than NYC in many cases. Cheaper and even if you don't speak English it is probably no worse than trying to communicate with some of the cabbies in NYC. I suggest having your destination and return written in Russian. On top of that, I usually try to find the closest metro statiion and ask for that, then I walk to my final destination.
Enjoy your trip...
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03-20-06 10:13 #250
safety
Blastoff:
Moscow is as safe as New York, especially if you are white. It's only dangerous if you are in the distant suburbs, drunk or behaving in a stupid fashion.
You should take normal "big city" cautions, such as avoiding be drunk alone, avoiding walking late at night (take a cab) etc. etc.
One monger-related hazard seems to be drugged drinks at CF (Boarhouse), a popular pick up bar. I have been drugged there before, as has a colleague of mine... after talking to the girls they reported that it is fairly common. So if you go there, watch your drink. Same goes if you take a girl home, make sure you keep an eye on your drink.
Of course things can happen in Moscow and occasionally do, but it isnt something to be paranoid about.
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03-20-06 09:55 #249Nice. Thanks for the ribbing and the advice. I asked earlier and I will ask again, can getting around in Moscow safety wise be compared to getting around New York City in your opinion? Originally Posted by CA Traveler
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03-20-06 09:48 #248
Many thanks for the info.
I have mongered in many of the poorest 3rd world countries so I think that a lousy apartment in Moscow will be a luxury next to a grass hut in a remote island off the Philippines but thanks for the advice on the mafia. I thought is was a lot more serious than that. Are you suggesting that moving around Moscow will be no more dangerous for a white tourist than say moving around New York? I am very interested to hear your feed back and thanks again.
Originally Posted by Doctor_Skank
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03-20-06 09:05 #247
Blastoff...
Blastoff... You really have it nailed... MAN, I just barely made it out of Moscow alive. The worst thing is having that mafia thug trying to keep up with me everyday for two years... Sometimes I even had to slow down so he could catch up. The worst thing is when I'd go to a tochka and feel like I "had" to get him a girl too! Man, what a hassle... Then, going to clubs... No wonder everything is so damn expensive in Moscow... You have to pay for your "tail" then you had to try to find something for yourself!
In fact, it got so bad that I actually got a separate ATM card just to give to them... that way I didn't have to mess with calling my broker, what with the time change and all, and getting her out of bed in California to sell off some pork bellies just so I could be released in time to catch Larry King on CNN. What a hassle. The personal ATM worked out quite well though and they really don't abuse it too much and I always make sure that it never runs dry so they don't hassle me like they did a few months ago to the poor guy in line at First! They wouldn't let him in... apparently it had something to do with the fact that his mafia tail wasn't dressed appropriately, but who knows!
Seriously... BO, please re-read your post! Does it sound like a fantasy? Go to the Moscow Times and read a few issues. Do you think they are hiding the fact that there are thousands of tourists and businessmen being kidnapped and tortured for cash? Believe me, the mafia has much better and more profitable ways to make money than to try to shake down some guy coming to Moscow to see the dead guy and get laid! NOW, if you go to Spb, it is a different story, but it's not the mafia it is the militia and gangs. Be careful in Spb every minute of the day.
BUT, if you don't want to screw with the militia, visas, etc, just go to Ukraine. In fact, any multiple week visit to the FSU, should include Ukraine because you'll immediately see the difference in the attitude of people and every thing costs a lot less.
In any case, don't worry about safety, just don't be a stupid jerk and do something dumb... find a wingman if you can and all will be OK. Apartments are fine if you can find one in the center, and never rent one outside the center, all of my comments are not valid very far outside of the brown circle line of the metro.
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03-20-06 08:55 #246
various
Blastoff:
"...my only real concern is the Russian Mafia. I do not speak Russian and am thinking of travelling there alone. I... I am hearing is that the Mafia has people reporting the arrival and movements of tourists from the time they arrive at the airport till they leave. I hear that tourists are often kidnapped and tortured and extorted for money, some times for weeks as they are forced to sell their homes and transfer the money to the gangsters account before they are released or killed."
Maybe in Chechnya, but not in Moscow. There are no mafia problems to worry about. The only problems with apartments are:
a) you must get your visa registered
b) you should get a centrally located apt
c) the cleanliness standard of some apartments isnt on par with a hotel
d) many apartments have lousy plumbing/water pressure
If you aren't EE experienced, apartments may not be right for you. Some apts are just great, most are average and a lot suck as well.
Western hotels are fine for pro action. Russian hotels are not. I chose apartments because they are cheaper and are better when have your freebie regular girlfriends over.
Cicciolino:
"I cannot recommend Rick's apartments at all. Rick has such a big chaos in everything that you have to contact him by email and telephone ten times before getting an apartment. His apartments are mostly older and in bad conditions..."
My experience wasnt as bad as yours, but it is true that he is a bit expensive and you should DEFINITELY book off of the www.moscow-star.com site and not the www.enjoymoscow.com site. The apartments on the moscow-star site are the better apartments. He operates both sites. All his apartments have internet access though, which I consider a big advantage.
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03-20-06 08:50 #245
apartments...
I think moscow wolf pretty much nailed it...
Rick is always so busy, as he will tell you himself... about working 20 hour days, as he is on his way to play basketball or partake of a local punch, and how he is doing you a big favor by renting you an apartment... That said, he does have about the largest assortment of apartments in Moscow and he does speak English. He's raised the prices about 50% in the last year, but who can blame him the way it is in Moscow these days.
I recommend that you try www.moscow-comfort.com. It is owned by Sveta, ex of Moscow Star, who is very efficient and cute. She doesn't have many apartments and I am told they are booked up all of the time but it may be worth a shot. I've never stayed there, but I have confidence in Sveta.
If you have to stay in one of rick's places, I suggest that you tell him that you want one of the old MSP apartments. Then, insist on some major refund if he has to move you for ANY reason.
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03-20-06 05:35 #244
Rick's Apartments
I beg to differ on the comments by Cicciolino. I reserved my apartment with Rick nearly two months in advance knowing that since the demolition of the Rossia Hotel (2000 rooms) being offset only by a Ritz-Carlton, was going to up the demand side of the pricing curve up. Just as I predicted, the hotel rates have all gone up another $100-150 per night. At the same time, I knew that apartments were going to be over booked. Originally Posted by Cicciolino
Even with a 2 mos advance notice, Rick had to scramble around to find me one in a location I wanted. But he got me one at $170 per night (for a week's stay). Compare that with $550-650/night at the Marriott, Hyatt or Meridien or no room at all elsewhere.
He seems to have a new crew (drivers, assistants) that seem more dependable and the apartments are always clean and functional, with all minimum items (coffee, tea, sugar, salt, pepper and cooking utensils) supplied.
I would continue to recommend Rick's Apartments as a alternative in Moscow, understanding that you can't expect US level services in Moscow, its all relative and you can do a lot worse.
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