General Info

[BaltiX]

I doubt there will be a exodus of providers going to DACH (Germany, Austria, and Switzerland). France made sex purchase illegal back in 2016, yet the number of escorts working hasn't gone down from what I gathered. Like I said before we have to wait and see.

[Delta Indigo]

I think it is very hard to oppose laws like this, ie anti prostitution law, without a lot of courage in the current climate and I really thought the PP would give in and this law would eventually pass. Like Pay For It I think Germany will be the beneficiary of this, a provider exodus to Germany. Unlike him I think that things will change if this law is passed and the clubs won't be able to operate like before. Many people thought that the 2017 prostitution law in Germany would not change anything, I thought it would affect pricing at the least, since the girls would use it as a pretext to charge more and I think I was more right on this.

However reading the Spanish forum, it might be that the PP letting this law advance was a tactic on their part to sow discord between the Socialists and Podemos who are far from united on this issue, right before and election year. The PP might eventually not support this law but wants the debate to go ahead in order to low discord on the left.

If the Popular Party do well in Andalusia, then the Popular Party will assume that they will win the next general election, then their worry is Vox and not the Socialists, so they then no longer have an incentive to support this law. I hope this law does not pass since although Spain is not great value for money as others have noted, it is great that we have another large scale alternative to Germany in Europe and I hope it remains that way.

I also love the food, culture and architecture in Spain. It is a better holiday destination than Germany overall.

[Andalus Expat]

I wouldn't be surprised if the club owners are connected to members of the political elite.

One thing you can be sure of. There are few people with influence are clients of puti clubs. Spanish culture. They are obsessed with being discreto. Big extended families & social networking. Everybody either knows or wants to know what you're doing. They gossip continually & can be very judgemental. It's a minefield.

Few months ago I received a letter from a lawyer representing the two other apartments in the building mine is in. Complaining about my visitors. Not noise or anything. Reference was made to young women of a certain appearance late at night. They must be glued to their door camera & never sleep. They received a stiff one from my lawyer threatening to take them to court for harassment if they persisted. That's Spain for you mate. Other countries, they might think things. But they wouldn't go to those lengths or think they could achieve anything by doing so.

[BaltiX]

I wouldn't be surprised if the club owners are connected to members of the political elite.

[Andalus Expat]

These club owners and mafias must be making a ton every year (last year 3.8 Billion spent on prostitutes in Spain).

Heard that claim before. I doesn't really stack up. Clubs are only about 5% of the total market & that's spread over maybe a thousand or more clubs. You have to remember all the small ones almost every town in Spain has. And simple business economics. Investment capital is fungible. Return on investment capital deployed in Spain is around 9% p / a. If the return on club capital was much greater than that investors would move from funding say skate parks to funding puticlubs. Number of clubs would increase, competition would drive down the rate of return towards that 9%.

Looking at the big ones, it's hard to see how they could be. Most of the money coming into a club is going to the girls not the club The hotel side's just a hotel. Room rates are about par for the market during the season. Off season they may benefit from not reducing the rates but occupancy drops whilst overheads don't. The bar is just a bar, customer prices a bit higher than discos. Girl drinks their kicking back 50% to the girl. But the exploitation of the utility of the asset is low. For most club bars their trade doesn't really get going until midnight & tapers after three. Any equivalent normal bar would be doing that 4 hours earlier & have a far longer peak. And that's why you find them in prime commercial sites in the centre of town not stuck out on industrial estates.

Problem with the industry as a whole, not just the clubs, is you're looking at people who have failed at everything else. The world's losers. Very few people go into this game could succeed doing anything else. If they could why wouldn't they? Most of them are either lazy or thick or both. And there's an unlimited supply of thick lazy people in the world. So the supply side's much greater than the demand. So there's really not much money to be made in it. Making a living's an achievement.

[Jon32]

When I mentioned the fine for letting a room for prostitution he said it will be impossible to prove.

I think (at least this is what happens in the US) that all it takes is some undercover officers a few times. Once they agree to sex for money and money changes hands. Boom, fines and shut down.

one of the club owners to ask if there was any greater concern.

Club owner said he was very confident it would not affect business because they don't pimp.

I'm really curious where are the club owners in all this? And the Chinese mafia for that matter. Could you imagine if the first hint of making tobacco illegal or guns illegal in the US happens? There'd be hundreds of millions of dollars raised in a month to back politicians against making any of that illegal.

These club owners and mafias must be making a ton every year (last year 3. 8 Billion spent on prostitutes in Spain).

I wouldn't care if there was even as little as a twitter post about making it illegal. At any hint of fucking with that kind of money revenue I'd start putting something together to fight it with other owners (lawyers, etc).

Where are all these guys, they have to be at least a LITTLE bit concerned. Even if it's 1% concern, for 3. 8 billion start putting something together to fight it. Literally the first thing they're going to close would be Chinese apartments and clubs like Apricots.

it is very much second to Germany in EU already. This law. If passed. Will kill it off and Germany will reap the rewards.

Don't know much about Germany, but I guess time to start looking LOL.

[Andalus Expat]

Messaged x4 girls today about this and one of the club owners to ask if there was any greater concern.

Club owner said he was very confident it would not affect business because they don't pimp. When I mentioned the fine for letting a room for prostitution he said it will be impossible to prove. The girls can lock their rooms if they want. All of the girls said if comes in they will move to Germany, Austria or Switzerland.

In Germany in July 2017 there was furore in the FKKs. New law banned BBBJ! Girls seized the chance to charge more for it. Previously it was part of standard service. Some girls took it seriously. They would hold an opened condom in one hand whilst sucking your uncovered dick and holding with the other hand. If the police burst in they would say they were putting it on! Yep. Seriously. Guess how many prosecutions there have been for the supply of BBBJ since the new law came in. Yep you guessed it. Zero!

All a lot of hype about nothing other than winning votes. Doubt you'll ever see it ever effectively implemented.

But IF it is. No worries. FKKs in Germany, Austria and Switzerland are all legal. Each of those countries will laugh in their beer at raking in the income from legalised prostitution whilst Spain (not for the first time) gets it economically very seriously wrong.

Truth is that the P4 P scene in Spain has become a little tired anyway. 10 years ago I would not have missed more than 2 weeks here. Now I prefer Thailand, Dubai, all of Germany, and even Manchester! Prices have gone up a lot to unreasonable levels. It is no cheaper now to monger in a Spanish club than in an FKK where there are a lot of added benefits (the restaurants / gyms / sauna / professional massage / cheaper rooms / hundreds of naked women). Whilst Spain has the weather, and better food if you know where to go, for the mongerer it is very much second to Germany in EU already. This law. If passed. Will kill it off and Germany will reap the rewards.

You're basically saying the same as I am, PayForIt. The industry will adapt & survive. Brothels have been illegal in the UK for decades. But I could still take you to one today. Or in fact a choice of several without moving more than a couple of miles from Hyde Park Corner. In the same way as despite the War on Drugs! We could pick up a few grams of charlie on en route, to compliment the entertainment. You don't use or approve? Are in favour of drug criminalisation? Then maybe you're the same as the people trying to outlaw prostitution.

And don't kid yourself the same's not going to happen in Germany, Austria & Switzerland. All have the same feminist & moralist lobbying & activist groups. If Spain adopts the legislation, it'll be an encouragement for them. It's just the times we live in. The death of classical liberalism. The rise of petty authoritarianism. The people who know what's good for you much better than you do. And the one's who can't rest knowing there's someone, somewhere enjoying themselves in a manner they don't approve of. I've lived & worked in Germany. Always amazed me what prescriptive laws Germans will swallow. Can't mow your lawn on a Sunday FFS! But Germans have a long long history of prostrating themselves to authority. It'll come to all of Europe, eventually. The question's when not whether. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if in due course something comes out of the EU or the European Court of Justice to chase laggard nations into line. Revisiting & repeal? Bureaucrats don't give up powers lightly. If at all. Forget it. You do not live in a democracy & there wouldn't be a democratic mandate to do so if you did. There's no Proud to be a Punter movement for the media to latch on to. And we all know prostitutes are misguided, exploited, vulnerable souls in need of protection not the right to choose.

[BaltiX]

I've been told Podemos are split on the matter between the moralists / feminists & the libertarian faction. I know people in our local Vox. They say Vox will be 100% opposed. PP is apparently split with the majority for. Of course voting's not a binary matter. Presumably abstain is a possibility which complicates things. If it passes, I gather it has to go to the senate.

At PayForIt "If this comes in at all it will be aimed at killing off SWs with pimps, people who operate brothels / villas / houses where the girls have to work to have accommodation / food." Except that's not how brothels / villas / houses legally operate. The girl rents accommodation & what she does in her room is up to her. Making money from a prostitutes earnings is already illegal in Spain. And if you ask any girl, they'll tell you they don't get fed. They pay for their food. People who run these places are as much chisellers as the managements of clubs. Notorious for it.

I was living in France when the French law came in. France already had a law prohibiting brothels. Came in the '50's I believe. Didn't mean they didn't widely proliferate. There was a flurry of police activity at the start. Haven't been to Paris for years so don't know what happened to the Bois de Boulogne. Situation now's it's pretty well back to normal. Houses I know are still operating & there's lots of girls advertising on internet sites. Basically, you'd only get problems with the police if what was going on was overtly visible. Enforcement is not something the police have much appetite for..

Good points, but I disagree that the prostitution laws wouldn't be revisited.

[PayForIt]

Messaged x4 girls today about this and one of the club owners to ask if there was any greater concern.

Club owner said he was very confident it would not affect business because they don't pimp. When I mentioned the fine for letting a room for prostitution he said it will be impossible to prove. The girls can lock their rooms if they want. All of the girls said if comes in they will move to Germany, Austria or Switzerland.

In Germany in July 2017 there was furore in the FKKs. New law banned BBBJ! Girls seized the chance to charge more for it. Previously it was part of standard service. Some girls took it seriously. They would hold an opened condom in one hand whilst sucking your uncovered dick and holding with the other hand. If the police burst in they would say they were putting it on! Yep. Seriously. Guess how many prosecutions there have been for the supply of BBBJ since the new law came in. Yep you guessed it. Zero!

All a lot of hype about nothing other than winning votes. Doubt you'll ever see it ever effectively implemented.

But IF it is. No worries. FKKs in Germany, Austria and Switzerland are all legal. Each of those countries will laugh in their beer at raking in the income from legalised prostitution whilst Spain (not for the first time) gets it economically very seriously wrong.

Truth is that the P4 P scene in Spain has become a little tired anyway. 10 years ago I would not have missed more than 2 weeks here. Now I prefer Thailand, Dubai, all of Germany, and even Manchester! Prices have gone up a lot to unreasonable levels. It is no cheaper now to monger in a Spanish club than in an FKK where there are a lot of added benefits (the restaurants / gyms / sauna / professional massage / cheaper rooms / hundreds of naked women). Whilst Spain has the weather, and better food if you know where to go, for the mongerer it is very much second to Germany in EU already. This law. If passed. Will kill it off and Germany will reap the rewards.

[The Cane]

Whole thing is fucking idiotic. Depending how bad it gets, personally might seriously consider moving to another western EU country.

Although traditionally Spain has been one of my favorite mongering destinations in the world, I decided several years ago not to return because I didn't feel that the value for my money I had gotten in prior years was still there. Club tutes wanting too much for doing too little. In the past, if some venue I didn't care for closed (like Club Help in Rio) or if there was a step back from legalization in a destination I had no interest in visiting, then I would just shrug my shoulders and be thankful that nothing I liked was being negatively impacted. But these days, I understand and acknowledge that if there is a setback to our avocation anywhere, then we have been diminished in some capacity everywhere. I hope this legislation does not ruin the scene in Spain in any significant way, shape, or form! Whether I intend to return or not.

[Jon32]

If this comes in at all it will be aimed at killing off SWs with pimps, people who operate brothels / villas / houses where the girls have to work to have accommodation / food. It will have little or no impact on clubs in Spain where the clubs are paying their taxes to the Government from the "hotel" income.

Well I certainly hope you're right and I'm 1000% wrong.

Looks like it approved for processing today (according to other forum, I can't find a link confirming. Yes - 218 No - 37). So not 100% a law yet, but closer.

The law is targeting:

1 - the brothels / villas / houses you're exactly writing about. It will be illegal to rent a room to a prostitute. They want to shut down anyone earning money via real estate through prostitution.

2 - Us. We will be fined 1500 euros or more if caught.

3 - Pimps. They will be fined more and jail time as well.

You're never going to abolish prostitution. Not going to happen.

Of course not. It's legal in the USA. And how is it there?

It fucking sucks.

I didn't / don't want Spain to turn into that. In the US $30 gets you a street walker on drugs and worried about getting busted by a cop. I've done it way, way too many times to count.

Here 60 euros gets a hot 20 year old and zero worry.

Huge difference.

Once it's illegal, it will be next to impossible to make it legal and regulated (who the hell is going to stand up and say 'hey let's legalize this and tax it' In my opinion no one.)

Those who have girlfriends / wives, how the hell do you explain a 1500 euro fine and a court appearance? You're fucked.

Those who don't. If the girls can't rent rooms, can't advertise, supply dries up big time. Prices will double or triple.

Lastly, if it's legal and regulated, Spain would make a killing on taxes. And also protect the women too. I. e. Make them pay into a pension and give them healthcare.

Whole thing is fucking idiotic. Depending how bad it gets, personally might seriously consider moving to another western EU country.

Spain spent 3.8 billion (billion with a b) on prostitutes last year. No doubt in my mind if there was some way to raise a fraction of a percent of that to get some lawyers together and back PP for example to regulate it instead of totally ban it things can change.

The guys who own the brothels across the country should be doing something, they'll lose a shit ton of money. Hell, I'd donate also.

[Andalus Expat]

I wrote PP below, I should have written Podemos.

I've been told Podemos are split on the matter between the moralists / feminists & the libertarian faction. I know people in our local Vox. They say Vox will be 100% opposed. PP is apparently split with the majority for. Of course voting's not a binary matter. Presumably abstain is a possibility which complicates things. If it passes, I gather it has to go to the senate.

At PayForIt "If this comes in at all it will be aimed at killing off SWs with pimps, people who operate brothels / villas / houses where the girls have to work to have accommodation / food." Except that's not how brothels / villas / houses legally operate. The girl rents accommodation & what she does in her room is up to her. Making money from a prostitutes earnings is already illegal in Spain. And if you ask any girl, they'll tell you they don't get fed. They pay for their food. People who run these places are as much chisellers as the managements of clubs. Notorious for it.

I was living in France when the French law came in. France already had a law prohibiting brothels. Came in the '50's I believe. Didn't mean they didn't widely proliferate. There was a flurry of police activity at the start. Haven't been to Paris for years so don't know what happened to the Bois de Boulogne. Situation now's it's pretty well back to normal. Houses I know are still operating & there's lots of girls advertising on internet sites. Basically, you'd only get problems with the police if what was going on was overtly visible. Enforcement is not something the police have much appetite for.

If it becomes law, I'm expecting much the same as in France. But you have to look behind the politics for why politicians are embracing the legislation. The matter itself is not an election winner / loser. There's far more important issues out there. But there is a sizeable & vociferous lobby & its supporters. So the parties hope to swing some of the votes towards them. Problem's that for those opposed, there aren't any votes in it. A good part of the electorate are indifferent. Opposing is unlikely to swing many votes in a party's direction. Post legislation things change. In due course the swung votes will be counted at the next election & the issue drops out of politics. It's unlikely to be revisited & repealed. But the moral lobbyists will be still out there, if somewhat placated. You're never going to abolish prostitution. Not going to happen. Like drug dealing, you can only push it underground. It will depend on visibility how much pressure they apply. Why I have doubts about the survival of the big clubs. The manager's opinions? In the words of Christine Keeler "he would say that, wouldn't he?" For the moral activists they'll be like waving a red rag at a bull. I'd imagine it will come down to local authority level. How much pressure local politicians come under. They don't need a law to shut down a business. They've already got endless laws to make one impossible to operate. The tax revenue is irrelevant. It's trivial. Funny enough, the tax revenue from the girls is probably more than the club. Most of them are registered as autonomo (registered self employed). They need that to keep their residencia & get health care. And without residencia they can't work in clubs. Maybe the answer for the clubs would be to change their game. At the moment they mostly don't offer anything but accommodation & a bar. Split the hotel side off as a separate entity letting rooms to customers. Make the club an actual club in the disco sense. Offer something other than just being a pick up joint.

[BaltiX]

It's unfortunate that feminazis are trying to ruin one of my favorite countries. The way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if VOX party takes over the government in the future.

[Mongerer88]

I sent your link to 3 club owners in Spain. One in Madrid and two in Costa Del Sol. They all agree it will not come into force. One of them laughed a lot. He speaks good English and I asked if this was wishful thinking and that really the clubs will close. The answer (from all three) is that if there is any change at all (which they doubt) it will not impact when a woman wants freely to provide services with no pimp. The clubs operate as hotels. The girls pay a room fee. Clients can take a guest of the hotel to a room if she agrees and what happens in that room is up to the two adults. If this comes in at all it will be aimed at killing off SWs with pimps, people who operate brothels / villas / houses where the girls have to work to have accommodation / food. It will have little or no impact on clubs in Spain where the clubs are paying their taxes to the Government from the "hotel" income.

I agree that they are the least affected. But hopefully it doesn't pass. There is a bullying aspect to this law regarding the possible fining of landlords. So those of us who prefer to see ladies sharing a flat have the concern that landlords might become inhospitable to the ladies. There are so many unanswered questions and hypotheticals that it makes a person's head spin. Of course nothing has passed, and who knows what the final bill will look like once it goes through the Executive Committee mentioned in the article.

Most of us come from countries with some level of illegality. There is plenty of commercial sex available in every country including the USA But the greater the illegality, the higher the prices are to get great service and to stay safe from law enforcement. The practical effect is to reduce supply and to increase prices, which makes the scene less visible, and more difficult for women to easily enter the industry.

I had one of my biggest laughs a decade or two ago. LOS Angeles police ignores independent escorts who screen, but they are hell on escort agencies. There was one agency that existed for a long time that was excellent. They closed after the female "owner" died of a cocaine overdose. Their incall was at a boutique hotel in Santa Monica. It had only a few rooms. I went in, and the college-aged guy at the front desk looked up from his textbook and smiled at me when I went to the elevator.

One of the girls I saw there was a knockout but clearly smoked pot. I thought to myself, I bet she gets a hotel fine someday.

I got back from a trip and searched on the somewhat primitive internet what the room cost would be. It wasn't advertised anywhere, even though it was registered with the state government as a hotel according to the internet. Then I figured it out. The escort agency owned the fucking hotel. Hell of a way to launder the money, too.

People in the industry in Spain won't have to go to those extremes if the law passes, and the industry won't die out. Prices will go up if a level of illegality occurs, though.

[PayForIt]

Looks like prostitution will become illegal in Spain.

PSOE has agreement with PP to pass it which will give them enough votes. Will become effective around October (unless something extraordinary happens, the other forum is trying to organize something)

According to the other forum, clients will be given a fine and jail time for being with a prostitute.

Well, fuck Spain also I guess. These feminists are fucking insane.

Wonder what other West European cities are better than Barcelona as far as escorts go (young and cheap LOL).

https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/naci...p-1579712.html

I sent your link to 3 club owners in Spain. One in Madrid and two in Costa Del Sol. They all agree it will not come into force. One of them laughed a lot. He speaks good English and I asked if this was wishful thinking and that really the clubs will close. The answer (from all three) is that if there is any change at all (which they doubt) it will not impact when a woman wants freely to provide services with no pimp. The clubs operate as hotels. The girls pay a room fee. Clients can take a guest of the hotel to a room if she agrees and what happens in that room is up to the two adults. If this comes in at all it will be aimed at killing off SWs with pimps, people who operate brothels / villas / houses where the girls have to work to have accommodation / food. It will have little or no impact on clubs in Spain where the clubs are paying their taxes to the Government from the "hotel" income.