General Info

[Jon32]

I suspect the big puti clubs will go. They're simply to obvious & in-your-face to ignore.

I wonder if all the Chinese massage places will go too, those actually (surprisingly) still exist in the US last time I was there.

Hopefully not as I go to one at least once per week minimum.

*And of course there's always defunding. Happened to this site with MasterCard & Visa. Happened to a pal's website blog. He lost his PayPal facility because apparently his particular brand of libertarian economics upsets some people. Banks responsive to lobbying pressure can arbitrarily withdraw banking facilities. You lose your bank accounts, you don't have a business.

Wow, completely forgot about this. When craigslist shut down it was because of the processor, same with sexguide. I think no one in Spain is even thinking of this yet (pasion, slumi, sexomercado, nuevoloquo.).

They all just think they'll post massage pages and be fine. Not the case of what happened here or on craigslist or backpage (backpage was raided by the FBI if I remember correctly, but I think they had a processor problem also).

They both moved to 'massage only' and still got shut down. Haven't looked at a US escort site in years, not sure what methods they are using these days to stay up and make money.

[Andalus Expat]

Yes, excellent analysis.

For the most part, Nordic Model laws really aren't that troublesome, especially when the law clarifies that an escort can hire services to support her activities, including contracting with an agency for those services.

As I have said before, there are two things to watch.

The less important one is the prohibition of advertising and discussion. If that occurs, those functions have to occur outside of the country in a more friendly jurisdiction. That is a hassle, including payments. Some escorts just won't jump through the hoops..

I do think it's worth remembering that this is a political rather than a legal situation. The legislation has come about because of the lobbying of politicians by certain interest groups. These haven't gone away. I suspect the reason there's only part of the proposed legislation currently being enacted is that when it came down to the nuts & bolts of actually writing it, they realized it wasn't as simple as they thought it would be. Second order effects. You try & make one specific thing illegal & in the process of defining it you find you've included a whole lot of things people definitely do not want made illegal.

There's a good example in the British press today.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...mages-without/ "Men should be prosecuted for sending nude images to women unless consent is given, say female academics and women's groups. " OK. Now define nude? Stark naked but wearing a hat? Posing in a pair of Speedos? If you're saying a sexual image, define sexual? If they're not careful they'll outlaw women sending photos of themselves in a low cut dress or tight shorts. Instagram will be bereft, the Kardashians desolate. For if the law applies to men it must apply to women, since we're all equal ain't we?

So now the legislators are caught between a rock & a hard place. Trying to write something will satisfy the pressure groups without upsetting the general public. Some of the more obvious advertising may go. At least for websites based in Spain. I suspect the big puti clubs will go. They're simply to obvious & in-your-face to ignore. It's going to end up with some complicated, hard to apply legislation which there'll be no particular enthusiasm to enforce. Trouble is, there's no push back to oppose the lobby groups. Nice to see photos in the papers of girls protesting against the legislation, couple of weeks ago. By rights there should have been 100 times as many of their clients there supporting them. Where were they? If it hasn't already, this'll be coming to a country near you before we're all much older. What are you going to do to oppose it apart from posting on here behind an anonymous name? Have a "Save our Prossies" bumper sticker on the back of your car? Stand up & be counted? I bet you will.

*And of course there's always defunding. Happened to this site with MasterCard & Visa. Happened to a pal's website blog. He lost his PayPal facility because apparently his particular brand of libertarian economics upsets some people. Banks responsive to lobbying pressure can arbitrarily withdraw banking facilities. You lose your bank accounts, you don't have a business.

[Mongerer88]

I'd say there's a fundamental misunderstanding there of how this business actually works. All prostitutes are independent workers. That's girls working in their own apartments, working in apartments of girls (plural), villa girls, club girls, agency girls. Any transaction you have with a girl is with the girl herself, not with a third party. Anything else would be illegal under previous legislation. Places like apartments, villas, clubs, agencies etc are services to the girl to aid her working & paid for by the girl. So, for instance, with an agency girl the money the client pays is her money. She pays a percentage of that to the agency for providing her with the client. Who you're physically giving the money to is irrelevant. If you're paying it to the agency, it's still her money. Handling it is part of the service the agency is providing to her.

So the agency is acting as her agent, not she its. She will already sign a consent, agreeing that she will allow the agency a cut of her earnings in return for the service it provides her. She can hardly consent to an agency doing what she's paying them for.

And it does make the matter of "third parties" somewhat moot. Anyone the girl pays to facilitate her working could be regarded as a third party. They're all benefiting from the proceeds of prostitution.

Yes, excellent analysis.

For the most part, Nordic Model laws really aren't that troublesome, especially when the law clarifies that an escort can hire services to support her activities, including contracting with an agency for those services.

As I have said before, there are two things to watch.

The less important one is the prohibition of advertising and discussion. If that occurs, those functions have to occur outside of the country in a more friendly jurisdiction. That is a hassle, including payments. Some escorts just won't jump through the hoops.

The more important one is the planned fines on landlords if prostitution is determined to have occurred. The most important aspect of low prices in Spain is the ability of many ladies to share a relatively large incall facility. If that goes away, we are going to see much higher prices and much less friendliness toward foreign tourists. The scene will shift toward expensive outcall and much smaller incalls where a lady only wants to see one or two guys a day, with them being very secretive. This is going to be very difficult for the government to enact if it doesn't simply cause the clubs and legal brothels that operate under the hotel statutes to effectively be closed. A person would think that landlords and tenants would object like crazy, also. The government would be forcing landlords to spy on tenants to minimize the likelihood of penalties. That is like the 1950's.

Time will tell. The Nordic Model had no real effect in Canada, of course that was aided by the police departments in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver doing prioritization policies stating that adult consensual paid sex transactions would receive the lowest priority. So there can be illegality and partial illegality without real consequences. Even in countries with full illegality, the scene exists, there is just screening, offshore advertising / discussion, and a realistic format where the customer is purchasing time / companionship. For the Nordic Model, there is less screening since the sex worker doesn't have to be concerned that a policeman is trying to book a session.

Time will tell on this. Sure there will be a few Hall Monitor type Johns who will quit doing this if Mommy / Daddy (the government) says not to, but for most people, the devil will be in the details, which includes what the laws actually say, and seeing if the laws are actually enforced. That takes time. A lot of time, in fact. But the landlord penalties is what to watch. That is the potential game changer, not whether Mommy / Daddy says about buying sex.

[Andalus Expat]

Thanks for these clarifications. I'm still not sure what the proposed changes actually accomplish though. As far as the "consent" matter goes, maybe the agencies could deal with that by having signed consent forms from the girls?

I'd say there's a fundamental misunderstanding there of how this business actually works. All prostitutes are independent workers. That's girls working in their own apartments, working in apartments of girls (plural), villa girls, club girls, agency girls. Any transaction you have with a girl is with the girl herself, not with a third party. Anything else would be illegal under previous legislation. Places like apartments, villas, clubs, agencies etc are services to the girl to aid her working & paid for by the girl. So, for instance, with an agency girl the money the client pays is her money. She pays a percentage of that to the agency for providing her with the client. Who you're physically giving the money to is irrelevant. If you're paying it to the agency, it's still her money. Handling it is part of the service the agency is providing to her.

So the agency is acting as her agent, not she its. She will already sign a consent, agreeing that she will allow the agency a cut of her earnings in return for the service it provides her. She can hardly consent to an agency doing what she's paying them for.

And it does make the matter of "third parties" somewhat moot. Anyone the girl pays to facilitate her working could be regarded as a third party. They're all benefiting from the proceeds of prostitution.

[Andalus Expat]

It seems that there won't be any problems with the girls putting ads. Maybe agencies can not do that legally anymore. But then I don't think they are actually going to fine those guys running the agencies. Basically nothings changed.

Whats the point of renewing ads on pasion? It makes no sense to me. The girl has to be renewing it every half an hour. Sounds like a waste of time.

Autorenews are about the prominence of the ad. Renewal will put it top of the first page. Until the next autorenew knocks it down the page. Without it, an ad might be 50 pages down on a phone. And indeed, some advertisers autorenew every half hour or even 15 minutes. It's the format of the site. Others work differently. But, like all advertising, you pay for prominence.

Already, this law is looking hard to interpret. So it'll end up as what a court decides. And with the Spanish legal system, which doesn't work on precedent & where the judiciary of one autonomous community can hand down a decision that conflicts with the decision of the judiciary of another autonomous community, 17 different interpretations could come out of this. None of them necessarily binding. Oh what fun for lawyers!

[The Cane]

Long story short. Nothing new has happened. The articles regarding prostitution were finally left out and are not going to be voted on (at least for the foreseeable future) , the ban on ads is not straight forward, if its the girl putting the ads then its fine. Third persons can't put someones elses ad up without their consent.

Thanks for these clarifications. I'm still not sure what the proposed changes actually accomplish though. As far as the "consent" matter goes, maybe the agencies could deal with that by having signed consent forms from the girls?

[Qazwsx5]

There does seem to be a great deal of uncertainty. I was talking with one of the girls. She got a similar message on her advert payments page as I did. But Pasion has given her 3000 autorenews as a gift. So with her using maybe 100 day, she'll have free advertising for the next month if she continues at that rate. Maybe I didn't get a similar message because there's considerable credit on my account, so I don't actually need to pay in to advertise. It also still seems possible to register a new Pasion advertising account for the Contacts section. (Although that would be on the existing one free ad a day basis?

So my guess is that Pasion is trying to keep the site functional over at least the short term, although they won't be able to monetise it.

Slumi.com seems to have done the opposite. They're not now offering free ads in the Escorts section. To advertise, it's necessary to purchase an advertising package.

It seems that there won't be any problems with the girls putting ads. Maybe agencies can not do that legally anymore. But then I don't think they are actually going to fine those guys running the agencies. Basically nothings changed.

Whats the point of renewing ads on pasion? It makes no sense to me. The girl has to be renewing it every half an hour. Sounds like a waste of time.

[Andalus Expat]

Long story short. Nothing new has happened. The articles regarding prostitution were finally left out and are not going to be voted on (at least for the foreseeable future) , the ban on ads is not straight forward, if its the girl putting the ads then its fine. Third persons can't put someones elses ad up without their consent.

There does seem to be a great deal of uncertainty. I was talking with one of the girls. She got a similar message on her advert payments page as I did. But Pasion has given her 3000 autorenews as a gift. So with her using maybe 100 day, she'll have free advertising for the next month if she continues at that rate. Maybe I didn't get a similar message because there's considerable credit on my account, so I don't actually need to pay in to advertise. It also still seems possible to register a new Pasion advertising account for the Contacts section. (Although that would be on the existing one free ad a day basis?

So my guess is that Pasion is trying to keep the site functional over at least the short term, although they won't be able to monetise it.

Slumi.com seems to have done the opposite. They're not now offering free ads in the Escorts section. To advertise, it's necessary to purchase an advertising package.

[Qazwsx5]

So having a hard time following the spanish threads on the other forums.

1 - Looks like they voted yes the law 8/25 to ban websites from advertising, but it still has to go through approval in September? (correct, or is it already 100% official?)

2 - This did not include the law to ban prostitution completely, did not include the law to fine clients, did not include the law for jail time. WHEN is this other law going to be voted on?

Long story short. Nothing new has happened. The articles regarding prostitution were finally left out and are not going to be voted on (at least for the foreseeable future) , the ban on ads is not straight forward, if its the girl putting the ads then its fine. Third persons can't put someones elses ad up without their consent.

[Jon32]

So having a hard time following the spanish threads on the other forums.

1 - Looks like they voted yes the law 8/25 to ban websites from advertising, but it still has to go through approval in September? (correct, or is it already 100% official?)

2 - This did not include the law to ban prostitution completely, did not include the law to fine clients, did not include the law for jail time. WHEN is this other law going to be voted on?

[Andalus Expat]

Just found this message on the payments page of my www.pasion.com account.

¡ ATENCIÓand!

El theía 25 de agosto de 2022 se ha aprobado la Ley Orgánica de garantía integral de la libertad sexual.

Debido a la inseguridad jurídica que genera esta nueva normativa nos vemos obligados a cerrar la seccióand de contactos. Desconocemos la fecha de cierre exacta pero necesariamente tendrá que ser antes de la entrada en vigor de esta nueva ley.

Ante esta situacióand el primer paso que nos hemos visto obligados a dar es dejar de ofrecer la venta de créditos.

Lamentamos mucho la situacióand why agradecemos el apoyo que siempre hemos recibido de nuestra comunidad de usuarios.

Translation:

ATTENTION!

On August 25,2022, the Organic Law for the comprehensive guarantee of sexual freedom was approved.

Due to the legal uncertainty generated by this new regulation, we are forced to close the contacts section. We do not know the exact closing date but it will necessarily have to be before the entry into force of this new law.

Given this situation, the first step that we have been forced to take is to stop offering the sale of credits.

We are very sorry for the situation and appreciate the support we have always received from our user community.

[BaltiX]

I found this article on another website that talks about Catalonian government's opinion on prostitution:https://www.elnacional.cat/es/politi...84329_102.html.

[Qazwsx5]

The bill is going to become a law on Thursday it seems. But from what I've understood and read (reading websites and stuff) its been watered down badly and it does not affect brothels and other things, the only thing it does is that third parties must not gain anything, and that includes ads (websites can't post videos and pics, however this one is also tricky).

That is the only thing that's going to change.

[BaltiX]

I mention this before, but there seem to be a significant opposition towards the proposed abolitionist law. Even parts of the media posted articles that criticized the proposal.

[Mongerer88]

The consent law (which is itself controversial) and the so called "abolitionist" law are two different things.

Yes, this piece gives an update on the bill, which is in the debate and amendments phase.

https://publicnewstime.com/travel/wh...tion-in-spain/

Hopefully the portions of the article pertaining to the status of the law is more accurate than the examples regarding commercial sex.

Puerto Rico is not a mongering hotspot, nor do a significant number of foreign sex workers in Spain come from the Dominican Republic.