General Info

[Hecker]

Actually I started yelling to two women emploees in Dnipro airport when the flight was cancelled and they did not provide alternative and while at the begiining they tried to ignore me or make fun, at the end they both started crying. I have never seen an emploee crying before. So I guess persistence gives results.

As for the airport they ask for money you have on you because theoretically they want to find the person who sold drugs in Ukraine coming from abroad.

I guess it is stupid to think that such a person would carry his profits to the airport to get money out of Ukraine. But this provides them a legal reason to ask for cash exported. They can search bags etc.

It is funny that at borders you are faced with questions by officers like do you bring drugs in the baggage, probably thinking that a person actually doing this would confess of course here are my drugs.

And then they even do not search the baggage. The word no is enough for declaration. But they search for profits when getting out.

[Evilz632]

sometimes I get Ukraine confused with Disneyland too, the happiest place on earth. I must get confused when I see my well dressed arab friends hassled by the police in Kiev while I, a well dressed white boy is left alone. You are right, the FSU isn't known for it's rampant xenophobia at all. The next time I'm in Kiev I'll be sure to lead some drunk Ukrainians on the street in a few choruses of 'We are the world', of course after they finish beating a arab or black guy.

You seem to think that a few isolated events are the norm, as I said, of course these things happen in any country, but it isn't the norm in Kiev. I also have a few arab friends and we go all over Kiev together, all the time and nothing ever happened to them in my presence. Now maybe this had something to do with the fact that I was with them, but they never complained about any high level of racism other than what your second description was, a bunch of rowdy (probably drunk) youths out looking for fist fights, now lets be honest, there is more racism between Persians and Arabs in Kiev than there ever will be between Arabs and Ukrainians.

I never said it was Disneyland (that is something you made up to try to invalidate my opinion) but it sure isn't Alabama, I stand by my statement that Ukraine is, in general, a very culturally accepting country if you approach it with respect, and the racism is minimal compared to the US, Latin America and many Western European nations. I am not saying 0% racism, I am saying on average compared to other countries in the world, it is much less. I would personally see an African or Arab getting beaten in many western capitals much more probable than it happening in Kiev, I mean be honest, I am guessing as a professed " white boy " you are from the USA, then you should know that the level of police brutality, discrimination, racism so on and so forth there is not even comparable to the small time militia bothering foreigners for paperwork in Kiev. You have the right to your opinion, as do I, that is it. I am not trying to change yours, don't try to change mine, I am just giving another point of view to the forum membership. I just don't want everyone here to think your way of seeing things is the only reality, and I hope you don't either, no reason or need for sarcasm.

Regards,

Evil Z

[Cruiser D]

Yeah Evil, sometimes I get Ukraine confused with Disneyland too, the happiest place on earth. I must get confused when I see my well dressed arab friends hassled by the police in Kiev while I, a well dressed white boy is left alone. You are right, the FSU isn't known for it's rampant xenophobia at all. The next time I'm in Kiev I'll be sure to lead some drunk Ukrainians on the street in a few choruses of 'We are the world', of course after they finish beating a arab or black guy.

Umm Hecker, you really think acting violent and threatening in an airport is a good course of action? Sounds like a good way to make sure you are headed to the back room for a full cavity body search.

Uke, I could be wrong but I thought a few years ago I saw a sign hanging un the customs area that no uah was to leave the country. I could have been easily mistaken. I figured if they want the 40-200uah I usually leave with they can have it.

[Evilz632]

I didn't really understand your advise Hecker, are you telling people to slap the Military official hard? Is this a joke ? Just an FYI for anyone that doesn't know, the immigrations officials in Ukraine and since we are talking about Kiev, at Borispol airport are not civilians, they are military personnel as the borders are controlled by the military, I would not advise ANYONE to agitate, slap, physically intimidate any military official in Ukraine. You will get arrested and they will treat you accordingly.

Ukrainians have a democratic constitution and they have rights just like in any other democratic country, we are not treated like dogs. In our country respect is given when it is received. If you come here as a disrespectful foreigner you will be treated like one, if you come here with respect you will receive the same in kind.

And your statement about people being treated like dogs is like me saying in the US, native americans, blacks, latins, the poor trailer trash and arabs are used to being treated like dogs and have very few rights and, in earnest, many people would agree with me. Just look at new orleans for an example. But I won't say that because it has nothing to do with money scams, Kiev or mongering therein.

My only advise would be to tell all travelers to understand that these types of scams occur in many countries around the world, I have never personally experienced this type of scam in Ukraine, but as a seasoned traveler I am aware of them all over the world and I know how to act if and when the moment comes. If you are in this situation and you think you can get out of it for a 20 dollar bill, go for it, if not, just ride it out. If you have done nothing wrong, I doubt you will be shipped off to guantanamo without trial, so just roll with the punches, if you can't do that, this hobby probably isn't for you.

Evil Z

The best approach in my opinion is to be quick as well and slap them hard or start yelling to them making obnoxious gestures.In this way they may feel some fear and stop.

In general people have very few rights in Ukraine and they are used to be treated like animals.

[Hecker]

I met exactly the same scam Jdaba described but it happened to me in the bus station when I was about to leave Ukrine.A person showed me a police medal and told me he was investigating for fake money.The rest I have described.

In the airport officers who ask about money maybe are asking for some bribe to get you avoid the nuisance.Ukrainians make a lot of use of psychology.They know you are in a hurry and want to leave and you have to thinka nd take care of a lot of things.They spot people leaving alone.In this way they can put the maximum pressure and create condition of blackmail and shortness of time with no time to react.You feel almost paralysed because they act very quickly.

The best approach in my opinion is to be quick as well and slap them hard or start yelling to them making obnoxious gestures.In this way they may feel some fear and stop.

In general people have very few rights in Ukraine and they are used to be treated like animals.

[Evilz632]

As far as Racism in Ukraine is concerned, and this is coming from a Ukrainian born and bred. Ukraine is one of the least racist countries I have ever had the pleasure to live in, so I don't really understand those comments, Of course racism exists, it is generally reserved for blacks, but that is something endemic to ALL of Europe where the term " neger " is still prevalent with regards to labeling blacks. But if you never lived in Ukraine during it's Socialist years, I would be the first to tell you that racism was basically abolished during those later years in general terms, you had Chinese, Vietnamese, Arab, Persian, Latin American and even African students coming in the hundreds of thousands to study all over Ukraine and Kiev in particular, a good portion of which stayed and live here today. Also, for anyone that hasn't actually traveled through Ukraine you should know, there are huge communities of Crimean Tartars, Crimean Greeks, Poles, Ethnic Russians, Armenians, Belarusians, so on and so forth, and most if not all of these ethnic groups are cousins, if not brothers to Ukrainian people and are treated as such. And the majority aren't blonde haired and blue eyed, you have all types of people with dark hair, dark skin and dark eyes and many if not all women find this extremely attractive in Ukraine.

I would definitely not take the generalization that Ukraine is a racist country seriously, there is still some discrimination towards blacks, kinda like in the US, it is no longer overt but continues to be covert, but as far as Latins, most Arabs and Persians and now even Asians, it is pretty much non existant, and as far as other ethnic groups living in Ukraine for milleniums or centuries like the Tartars or Greeks, it hasn't existed for a long time, though there will always be a general prejudice ( not racism ) towards people that come and settle in the country and don't know or understand the language, it seems disrespectful to Ukrainians, who in the most part, know, understand and are fluent in at least 2-4 languages, usually being, russian, ukrainian and german, and recently english.

I think you are a humble respectful culturally diverse person who at least makes an effort to learn the language while on your stay, you will generally be greeted with the same respect and understanding.

Of course, there are some exceptions, you will always find some bone heads, but ratio wise, I think you will find much less than in other countries.

Again, I am Ukrainian, I was born here, I have studied here, I have half my family here, I have traveled all over Ukraine, I have friends of just about every racial group, and I have never seen a wide spread racial discrimination the likes of which I have seen in countries like Sweden ( where blacks were for a long time shunned and discriminated against by the local male youth population ) or the USA, where ,Native Americans, Blacks, Latins, Asians and now Muslim Arabs are routinely discriminated against, in social, cultural and economic terms, or even Latin America, where the lighter more European Castizo and Mestizo classes have historically discriminated against the Native American polupations. I have lived and spent time in all these cultures and countries and hands down as far as racism and discrimination goes Ukraine and Kiev in particular are not racist. There are always exceptions, but IMHO much less than in any other country I have been in.

Evil Z

EDITOR'S NOTE: I certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please Click Here for more information.

[Uke Boy]

Cruiser,

Last I looked, you can leave Ukraine with $3,000 and 3,000 grivna as a foreigner without a prior incoming customs declaration for more than that dollar amount. I seriously doubt anyone, foreigner or local, who would leave with such a grivna amount.

I usually take out about 200-300 grivna to use with taxi drivers (if my regular driver cannot make it) and other immediate needs on arrival at home.

I agree with you on one point. Who in their right mind carries cash when there are so many ATMs not just here but everywhere. I normally travel with no more than $300 and about 200 Euros. More than enough for any reason.

I also have been stopped a number of times asking about the cash issue when I exit the escalator just at passport control. I answer truthfully which almost always is the above amounts and they move on to the next possible victim. I have noticed that some people they take away for further checking in another room and these so far were all white guys.

We'll pick a better place next time for lunch than Friday's. I look forward to it.

[Cruiser D]

Jdaba, interesting and oddly enough I had a girl sitting just outside of passport control - not customs which is the area on the first floor ask me how much money I was leaving with. I had about $60 and 150uah on me, I think I told her I had $60 on me, that was the end of the conversation. It all seemed very odd at the time, generally customs never bothers me about anything maybe it was part of the scam you mentioned. Although I maybe wrong I am fairly sure you are not allowed to leave the country with any uah at all.

Being American I generally never carry any paper money on me over $100. I used to always carry a few thousand uah whenever I was in Kiev but even that is not needed anymore. Just about every upscale place takes CC's and you can't walk 3 meters without bumping into an attractive girl in Kiev or a ATM.

As far as the police, I had the police drive by and give me a quick glance at 5am in May 2005, that was the only interaction I've had with the police in the Ukraine.

Unfortunately the Ukraine can be very racist at time. I'm guessing you are a non white. Problems like the ones you mentioned happen to my Arab friends all the time.

[Cruiser D]

I don't consider whomever the girls is visiting having to pay a 250uah 'paperwork fee' as difficult.


If I could get the paperwork done for a girl to come visit the US for 250uah I would be a very happy guy.

[Evilz632]

It can be very difficult for low to medium income girls to get Visas to certain shengen countries. This is true, though there are always exceptions.

Evil Z

[Cruiser D]

Hecker, I know quite a few Ukrainian girls who have traveled easily to Italy, Spain and France. It only sounds difficult to get the proper paperwork but in reality it isn't.

Ah yes, the influx of cheap immigrant labor has certainly done great things for Germany, England and France. I think it's funny now that all the Polish Plumbers have gone to England the Poles need Ukrainian plumbers. Exploitation of immigrant labor and the resulting suffering of your own middle class really doesn't sound like a viable long term economic solution. If the EU needs a larger labor force then they currently have then someone needs to explain the double digit unemployment in France and Germany to me. It's the greedy and shortsightedness of political and business leaders that have cause the almost untenable social-economic situation in those three countries. It will be interesting to see who implodes first, the EU or the US. My money is on the EU and their much more developed and burdensome social welfare programs.

I often hear a debate among Ukrainians about whether they should join the EU or not, but unless I am reading all the signs wrong it would seem the EU wants absolutely nothing to do with the Ukraine.

[Jdaba]

i would like to many westerners travelling to the ukraine of a common scam. custom officers at borispel airport have become very corrupt. they run the following scam: an officer would ask you to show all your cash money to make sure that you have declared any amount over $3000. he will then inspect the money and tell you that it is counterfeit and that he has to confirep001e the money and send it to court. you will then have to attend court. interestlingly, they do this scam on your way out of the ukraine because you will have no way of following up on the issue.

if you are lucky, you will get another officer approach you and tell you that they can forget about this issue if you give them a "present. "

what a corrupt country. it has happened to me this sept. (2007) and to a friend of mine a week earlier (it was unknown to me when i got ripped off).

the other scam is that police in kiev, if they see you walking alone at night, they will approach you and claim they saw you with a prostitute and that you have to go to jail. you will end up giving them a "little present. " it is the term they usually use.

all together, i will not go back to the ukraine as a monger because the girls attitide has gotten worth than westerner women. at least western women have got the careers and good jobs. i wonder what ukrainian women have to offer for such a shitty attitude.

[Orange Leo]

Two times I have invite a Ukraine girl. No problem in getting a visa at all.

[Hecker]

It is not at all easy for ukrainian girls to get visa for EU countries. And almost impossible for the young ones because the authorities consider them as intending to travel for prostitution. That is why they refuse visa to young girls while they give it more easily to older women.

To travel to an EU country an ukrainian girl has to bring a lot of documents. Often something is missing. She needs an invitation of a person who resides in the country she wants to visit. This person has to send some translated documents, among them a recent tax declare and an affirmation that he has not been legaly persecuted. In this way the girl can see how much money the inviting person makes. The authorities can see it as well.

So even with all these documents and papers they have the right to reject the application for visa if they decide so after the interview eith the girl. This means that often a sort of bribery is needed as well.

The other way is through expensive travel agencies which take care for the visa. One has to trust the girl and send her 500-1000$ to try to get a ticket and visa from travel agency. Of course the danger of scamming in this case is great.

EU needs ukrainian workers. One million Poles have emigrated to UK and now there are lacks in certain fields in Poland. They need to recruit more Belarus and ukrainian workers to fill in the gap. That is why they proposed the regulation for people living 100 km inside the borderline.

Maybe EU will consent if ukrainian governement gets run by more european oriented politicians like Timoshenko who is heavily supported in the west part of Ukraine.

[Cruiser D]

Actually it has to do with WTO membership.

What you are suggesting has about zero chance of passing. If it does you will find everyone in the Ukrainian (those that are interested) living within 100km of the Polish border - even if they actually live in Lugansk.

Sure the Ukrainian government would like to export some of it workers for they cash they send back. But on the other hand the government is offering serious cash to help get population growth back into a positive percentage.

Personally I think it's detrimental to a county's long term health to import cheap labor. Can you think of a country where things are actually better for the native workforce - USA, Germany, England, etc. All it benefits are some politicians and business people and to a lesser extent the exploited foreign worker. On the other hand, importing legal foreign workers who are paid the same as native workers is just spiffy.

From what I understand Ukrainian girls can travel to most European countries with little difficulty. All they need is an invite letter to get the proper paper work to travel.

I think all this is a maneuver of ukrainian government to put some pressure in order to help pass the proposition the Poles made to EU that