Kyiv

[DramaFree11]

Gents,

I have a question regarding KEC / GIA.

When I was talking to the KEC operators I indicated that I was a old customer of GIA. They would either deny connection with GIA or say no idea what GIA is. KEC and GIA have pretty much the same girls and their websites are very similar. I wonder if they are denying that for legal reasons or are they actually different?

Which brings to my question: is KEC as reliable as GIA? I use KEC / GIA for multiple day bookings and they require deposits. I am not 100% sure if it is safe anymore.

P.S. Whether it is wise to use KEC / GIA for multiple day bookings is another discussion.

Both are way too much money for Kiev. Who cares if they are reliable or not, in my opinion major Rip Off.

[DramaFree11]

Visiting Kiev Planning your trip.

Anyways. With all being said earlier. Same question pops up. Is Kiev still good place for mongering? Yes indeed; - You still can f*ck local girls almost 50% cheaper than in Western Europe or USA. Also in Kiev (if you get lucky) you may come across some "out of the box" talents which highly unlikely to meet anywhere else. In any case I'the suggest you read few paragraphs below that might help you to make the most of your trip.

1. Budget:

"What you pay is what you get" . That's been written on the stone and everyone knows this expression. No difference in Kiev. Obviously, the main objective for you is to f*ck a beauty queen for 1000 UAH. Well it's not going to happen. And don't even hope that I'm joking. Don't fall for fake profiles on the web advertising at 800-1500 UAH with model type girl..

Very good report, disagrees with the part about girls above 7's. Prices are correct, but accessibility is questionable especially for Newbies. You live there as I did, as did I and my friends did the same.

None of my friends had access to those type of girls either and this was 3 years ago, they just simply were not available, like 5 years ago. I can only imagine how bad it is now. Most of my friends had major game, time and big bankroll. They were able to pull 7's above in the past on the streets and clubs, but this is just not the case now. We all had apartments, gym memberships and access to VIP Clubs. I see more 8's and above in Moscow on a Friday then I would see in months in Kiev, sorry this is the truth.

5/6's all day long in Kiev, anything above that very difficult maybe even impossible without major local connections, job and the language, even then unlikely.

[Riina]

You definition of mongering must be much different than mine. Your tactics to me are a sure way to make a girl feel like a hooker. As an older man, you are supposed to be interesting and to be the commanding one (like deciding where to eat and where to go for fun). While I do pay for sex with girls, I have also dated a lot of Ukrainian / Slavic girls 100% not because of gifts or money. Some girls are after a free dinner or an iPhone, but there are plenty of girls looking for some fun or love with a foreigner.

I never heard of a Ukrainian girl say she was looking for an interesting man. My experience is they want to find a partner that can give them financial security first, but that's not an option for most girls, so many will just say they are looking for someone beautiful. There's a shame factor that comes into play when an older foreigner dates a younger girl that's quickly mitigated if it means a bettering of lifestyle.

[Riina]

- Ukrainian ladies are much more fun than single moms, because they experienced less abuse in their personal relationships.

It's interesting how quick Ukrainian girls are to label single moms as [Deleted by Admin]. You would think they would sympathize with their situation, but it's not like that.

[Dunba1679]

Gents,

I have a question regarding KEC / GIA.

When I was talking to the KEC operators I indicated that I was a old customer of GIA. They would either deny connection with GIA or say no idea what GIA is. KEC and GIA have pretty much the same girls and their websites are very similar. I wonder if they are denying that for legal reasons or are they actually different?

Which brings to my question: is KEC as reliable as GIA? I use KEC / GIA for multiple day bookings and they require deposits. I am not 100% sure if it is safe anymore.

P.S. Whether it is wise to use KEC / GIA for multiple day bookings is another discussion.

[Sprusic2019]

Visiting Kiev – Planning your trip.

Anyways. With all being said earlier. Same question pops up. Is Kiev still good place for mongering? Yes indeed; - You still can f*ck local girls almost 50% cheaper than in Western Europe or USA. Also – in Kiev (if you get lucky) you may come across some "out of the box" talents which highly unlikely to meet anywhere else. In any case I'the suggest you read few paragraphs below that might help you to make the most of your trip.

1. Budget:

"What you pay is what you get" . That's been written on the stone and everyone knows this expression. No difference in Kiev. Obviously, the main objective for you is to f*ck a beauty queen for 1000 UAH. Well – it's not going to happen. And don't even hope that I'm joking. Don't fall for fake profiles on the web advertising at 800-1500 UAH with model type girl. These prices are actually for massage or very basic services with some ugly to average looking chicks. And of cause you're not traveling significant number of miles just to end up with something like this. Kiev Girls are not stupid. They're very smart and they know exactly market value for their time and services. So be prepared to spend 100 $ - 150 $ for 6/7 looking girl 200-250 $ for 8/9 (if you get lucky) and $300+ for 10 (if you get any). Different guys have different taste and 10 for one guy could be 6 for another. But the bottom line is that in order to succeed you have to be very realistic in terms of prices. So, I wouldn't bother to come to Kiev for 1 week without $2000 in my pocket just to be able to fully enjoy my trip.

2. Duration of your trip:

Kiev is a long-term game and 50% of your mongering success relies on your prior's trips "contact list" For those who visits Kiev for the first time – make every effort to create this "contact list" and for those who has traveled to Kiev before – make every effort to contribute to "contact list" so you can use it for the next trip. (instead of calling 911). If you're visiting Kiev for less than 1 week than to make the most out of it I'the suggest you stick with GIA, RIO and apartment girls. Don't try to play long-term games (Mamba, Tinder, Sponsor Games, Night-Clubs etc.) in a short period of time. This most likely will lead you to pure disappointment.

3. Expectations:

That's already been covered in paragraph 1. Keep your expectations low. You will not f*ck a model-type girl for 1000 UAH even though you're young and extremely good looking – I've met many guys who's been very disappointed with the looks and services of the girls they've got from mamba or strip clubs or underground escort agencies due to very high expectations. Etc. So, the lower your expectations are – the more successful will be your outcome of your trip.

4. Preparation:

"You cannot get an apple without climbing a tree" – Do your homework in advance. If you stick with Mamba than you should get VIP access to be able to use advanced search. Look only for profiles with "sponsor" or "sex" listed. Create a list of available girls (recently active) Use VPN to change your location to "Kiev" (you need to make them believe you're in Kiev) than contact all profiles at once and see what you get back. Keep in mind that most of the "sponsor / sex" profiles posted by underground pimps, so you'll get the picture. There used to be hundreds of semi-pros and independent girls on Mamba. Well, not any more. You also need to google pictures of all potential candidates bc 90% are fakes. I'the rather use Yandex for this. For image search in Russia and Ukraine it's working much better than google. Stay away from none P4P profiles (girls looking for marriage, friendship etc.) - it's a complete waste of time.

For underground pimps and operators (you get their numbers from sex-portals like: kievlady eurogirls etc) you should consider only those that use Viber / WhatsApp. Than you should contact them upfront pretending you're in Kiev. They'll scan you (where you stay? What country are from? And blah blah. Than they send you pictures for escort girls they have so you can clearly evaluate your options before you've actually booked your apartment and plane tickets to Kiev. In other words: Whatever you can do from home – should be done before you landed. You'll save yourself tones of valuable time. And sometime time is more important than $$.

5. Attitude.

You should treat girls with respect. Regardless if you like them or not. Don't act like a jerk no matter how drunk you're. For the first time you're meeting with a girl – treat it as business transaction. Keep in mind that: All girls you'll meet are more interested in sucking your pockets than your dick (regardless pro or semi-pro) bc for you "sex" is a pleasure and for her it's a job. If you really like a girl than give her some tips and there is a good chance, she'll leave you her contact info for future communication. There are lots of scam girls and agencies out there and you should learn how to deal with them. It's just too bad there is no reliable escort review board for Kiev (like ***). There is one local board Kiev-x but it's only limited for Russian speaking audience. (I'll get more into this). So, be ready for scamming – specifically by girls in night clubs (they'll be trying getting you into "Romantic" mood for bottle of Champagne and leaving you with $300 bill at the end of the party).

Also, underground pimps will send you bunch of fake girls if you do not request photo upfront. This happens all the time and don't go crazy about it. Add some humor to this just tell the girl "Honey – you look great but I expected to see a different girl" if she insists on money for Taxi than pull $100 bill out of pocket and tell her "I would love to give you some cash for taxi but I don't have any small change". This will be a good lesson for the girl and her pimp so the next time they'the be careful playing be&S.

6. Accommodations:

If you are an English-speaking traveler than you should not be staying in hotels. There are many great apartments in Kiev with English-speaking hosts for a reasonable price. Best place to find apartments: airbnb and the local resource dobovo. You can pick up any apartment you want but always check for reviews. (you don't have to pay service fee). There are many hotels in Kiev but very few are merged to Western standards and those are very expensive like Hyatt or Premier Palace. When it comes to hotel vs. Apartment – Privacy is the key.

So that's about it. Or just a tip of the iceberg. In any case I'll publish more stuff if you're interested. Chao.

[Sprusic2019]

Hi guys,

I've been following this forum for a while but never published anything. Now I guess it's the right time because I'm down with flue and have nothing else to do but to make few comments that might be useful specifically for newbies visiting Kiev and hunting for local girls.

I've been working in Kiev frequently for the past 10 years. I'm actually in IT business and we have a team of off-shore developers doing some projects for us here. So I have to spend in Kiev around 2 months per year in average. I speak fluent Russian (actually I was born in Moscow but moved to USA at the very young age) . I wouldn't classify myself as an expert on Kiev mongering seen but obviously spending so much time here in Ukraine, I have accumulated 100+ contacts for local hotties. That's a rotating number as the old contacts go away and new one comes in. And its really exciting movement if you have the right amount of cash $$ LOL. Anyways – here is my piece of advice for newcomers which may reflect few fundamental questions being raised on this forum.

Is Kiev still good place for mongering?

In my opinion Kiev (and Ukraine in general) is highly overrated by media and word of mouth. It used to be like heaven for sex tourists. But not any more from 1990 thru 2005 Kiev was flooded with 7-10 grade girls for a very low price. And the primary reasons for this: was the collapse of Soviet Union and adjustment period to the western standards of life. Girls were very poor back than and they were desperately looking for cash. Many of them were hoping to find a rich husband or sugar-daddy abroad to leave Ukraine for better life. And that's why so mail-order brides magazines and on-line catalogs were so popular at that time (now it's pure scam) . Boarders were opened at that time but it was still was very hard to leave Ukraine due to logistical, economic and mental reasons so most of the girls had accumulated in Kiev, Odessa (summer-time) and few other big cities. So the average price for model-type girl (type 10) was around $70-100 per hour (Now it's $300 and above. If you get any). Things started going downhill around mid. 2000 x. Kiev had flooded with sex tourists from different countries and yet at the same time more and more hot chicks permanently left P4P market by moving out of Ukraine or sticking with local rich guys or sugar daddies (don't underestimate income of some local dudes), and those who preferred freedom to continue P4 P business keep doing it somewhere else. And it make sense bc why a 9-10 looking girl should waist her pussy in Kiev for 2000 UAH / HR if she can do the same in Paris for 300 EUR / HR or in New York for 600 USD / HR? Can't really blame them. LOL Most popular destinations for these chicks; - France, Italy, UK, UAE, USA and recently. China. So, it's not really poverty but the liberalization of mentality of Russian / Ukrainian women and freedom of travel has damaged the whole picture of Kiev (Moscow too) as primary mongering destinations. And the last big hit was the closure of River Palace back in 2010. I think few old-timers on this forum exactly know what I'm talking about. So, demand has exceeded supply. And the inventory of high-quality working women has been going down dramatically year after year. I think I'the better split this into multiple posts. Cause it's too much info for a single thread.

[Kozerog]

Your tactics to me are a sure way to make a girl feel like a hooker. As an older man, you are supposed to be interesting and to be the commanding one (like deciding where to eat and where to go for fun).

I am deciding where to go for fun: namely, into bed for a few hours and then she leaves. As to being interesting, I enjoy my own company as long as I get to be myself. But being myself probably makes me boring to women of all ages. So that's where money comes into play. Women in Ukraine are usually very interested in money, and by extension, in men offering money or money equivalents (gifts, vacations, restaurant meals, etc). By offering money, I get to act like my natural boring self, but women nevertheless find me interesting.

It's possible to use euphemisms to describe exchanging sex for money ("I've always depended upon the kindness of strangers") but I think honesty is best. If the girl can't tolerate the feeling of being a mistress (Russian soderzhanka), best we part ways immediately and avoid wasting each other's time.

[Kozerog]

At least 3 single Ukrainian mothers I met were quick on the draw, and driving hard towards marriage, trying to shape up my thoughts. All three were Semi-Pro.

I thought about this some more. Problem is with me. For some reason, I was probably focusing on very conservative women when I went after civilians.

Here's another suggestion for guys seeking LTRs. In talking about money, remember that young women often can't do math in their head. So be sure to do the multiplication for her. In my case, assuming 1000 uah / hour and 4 hours per meeting and 2 meetings per week and 13 weeks, that's potential of 104,000 uah to be my summer girlfriend. Sounds much more enticing than 1000. Per my rule not to make false promises, I would not mention possible end of summer bonus (30% typically), and I would be very careful to point out, and get the girl to echo back, that there will not be more than 1 meeting of things don't work out.

Here's a suggestion for meeting quality middle class single mothers. Get seats in the cheap upper rows of the ballet or children's dance theatre or similar. Or pretend you need a replacement buttons for your shirt and go to a fabric store. If a woman accompanied by young daughter holds your eye contact, she is almost surely single or separated. Very easy to strike up a conversation using the daughter as topic: "Is the young beauty is planning to be a ballerina herself when she grows up? What is her name? She's as pretty as her mother! Etc etc" Reason for picking the cheap seats is that single mothers typically have tight budgets, unless they are part of an oligarch clan, in which case probably not available to foreigners. Main problem with this suggestion is you probably need intermediate level Russian (or Ukrainian). I'm also assuming the man would prefer a single mother with daughters only versus sons.

Just my opinion, it's so much better to have the mentality that all relationships with Ukrainians are financial. Love is great, but expect shattered dreams if that's your guide.

Yes, that's why I advise no free samples of the woman's body, even if she offers. Better to get things on a proper footing from the start. If you promise to pay X money under certain conditions, and your proposal is attractive to the woman, the pressure is now on her to make the deal go through. Just avoid over promising. That is, make sure X is sustainable if you want an LTR.

[TinyHippo]

Some advice for guys looking for LTRs:

1. Minimize intermediaries, other than those that involve minimal cost (free or cheap online dating apps) or where intermediary truly wants you to succeed and be happy (your own grandmother as matchmaker, for examine). Marriage agencies are worse than useless. Quality Ukrainian women have no need to use marriage agencies to find boyfriends / husbands, so women at these agencies are either junk women (bad looking and / or bad personalities) or scammers (or maybe professional working girls if you're lucky).

2. Many working girls, especially those over age 25 or so, would prefer to have one or a small number of quality sponsors versus a parade of one-time clients. Escorts who want to become mistresses are perfect for foreign men seeking LTRs. Much better, IMO, than leftover women (women over age 25 who never worked as an escort but also never got married, either due to personality problems or not physically attractive). Single mothers another possibility, but quality civilian single mothers tend to go very slowly and foreign men are often short on time. Single mothers also often develop strongly independent and self-sufficient personality. Good character qualities in a business associate, not so good in a lover..

You definition of mongering must be much different than mine. Your tactics to me are a sure way to make a girl feel like a hooker. As an older man, you are supposed to be interesting and to be the commanding one (like deciding where to eat and where to go for fun). While I do pay for sex with girls, I have also dated a lot of Ukrainian / Slavic girls 100% not because of gifts or money. Some girls are after a free dinner or an iPhone, but there are plenty of girls looking for some fun or love with a foreigner.

[PhotoSlider]

In general single ladies are much more fun, they have significantly less psychological trauma.

Sorry about mistake. I meant to say this:

- Ukrainian ladies are much more fun than single moms, because they experienced less abuse in their personal relationships.

Kozerog's Essay on LTR is great. Couple dozen more, and he has enough material to publish a solid book.

[Riina]

Some advice for guys looking for LTRs:.

Thank you for the post, very useful, Just my opinion, it's so much better to have the mentality that all relationships with Ukrainians are financial. Love is great, but expect shattered dreams if that's your guide.

[Fifino68]

Thanks guys for the replies and many thanks to Kotzerog for the detailed explanation.

[PhotoSlider]

Single mothers another possibility, but quality civilian single mothers tend to go very slowly and foreign men are often short on time. Single mothers also often develop strongly independent and self-sufficient personality.

At least 3 single Ukrainian mothers I met were quick on the draw, and driving hard towards marriage, trying to shape up my thoughts. All three were Semi-Pro. One pretended she got pregnant with my child. Another one was too controlling. In general single ladies are much more fun, they have significantly less psychological trauma.

The fourth one was indeed very self-sufficient, a true Goddess in bed, and indeed independent in our relationship. I prize encounters with her very highly, but Kozerog is correct. Difficult relationship.

Consider annuitizing wealth, so as to convert into stream of income that stops upon your death, so that no one (besides insurance company) has incentive to see you die prematurely.

There was a story here about the Ukrainian girl that married an UK guy, arranged for a lethal traffic accident (he was a pedestrian, smashed by the truck by her accomplice), and took possession of his wealth, with his relatives trying in vain to resist via legal means. There were no action taken against her in Ukraine, most likely a collusion with Ukrainian criminal system.

I believe Fifino68 asks for having a good time with Ukrainian girls, not to marry them. Regardless, bride agencies are scam.

4.Never take a Ukrainian woman out of Ukraine permanently (short trips are fine).

Minor corrections. Do not take Ukrainian woman out of Ukraine even for short trips, unless you know her well enough. Even then, she may have a change of mind, while you are at her mercy in non-mongering destination. Happened before. If that's the case during your trip, just put her on the plane, and cut your losses. That is also why KEC asks for 20-50% prepay. No effing way! You already are paying for the ticket and hotel.

More than once the mild threat of kicking the cold moody princess out, turned her into a hot seductress right away.

Men need to move to Ukraine if they want to ongoing access to the woman's body.

Plural. Women, not woman. Move to Ukraine, if you want to have an ongoing access to women bodies. But that's my preference. To each is own.

6....Don't ask for free samples of a woman's body...

Why not? For moral reasons?

I guess you are right again. There is no free lunch after all.

7....Otherwise, ask her to put her arm back on the table, put your hand back on her wrist, wait silently again for several minute, then invite her to your apartment.

That is what I do indirectly during my casting. With hourly girls it is trickier, and I have to rely on their smiles, body language, intonation and perceived willingness. But sometimes shy girls turn into hot ones in the bedroom.

With higher level agencies I do not pay right away, and if, before we go to bed, the girl doesn't respond to my kisses within the first 10-15 minutes, I explain that there is an exit door in my apartment.

Kozerog's approach is much better for casting the mamba-like girls before letting them into your apartment.

8. Inability to put her smartphone away during the coffee meeting should be a deal killer. Unlike with the hand on her wrist compliance test, no reason to give second chances where smartphone etiquette is concerned. Save your money and give it to a more deserving girl.

That's tough but true.

I go berserk when agency calls before my time runs out. However, few times it was rather cute. Taking the girl doggy style, and I know that our time is over, because agency already called, and I didn't extend, despite both of us enjoying each other big time. And, while waiting for the car to arrive, we decided to go for another round. So again, I am taking her doggy style, and she answers the phone, talking to dispatcher in a shaky stuttering voice:

- I am Rea. Dy!

- Is the car here?

- I am coming!

Those are the moments that I cherish.

Otherwise agree, no phone. My tablet is used for entertainment. Then again, asked one girl:

- Do you want any music?

- **I** am The Music!

And she was.

10. Don't expect monogamy from Ukrainian women, especially if you are much older than her, or much less handsome than she is beautiful.

Indeed! It is a hierarchical priority system. Girls run their own harem of milked males, their source of income. If a certain male is promising to be valuable, they may run a monogamy show just for him. But make no mistake. It is all about maximizing potential and real revenue, while multitasking.

[Kozerog]

I have a question for the guys who have been to Ukraine and know the works: those agencies like Ukrainian Brides etc, do they work for getting non pros? I mean, apart from getting a husband they might be looking for less definite agreements. Or is it just a scam? Thanks for the help.

Some advice for guys looking for LTRs:

1. Minimize intermediaries, other than those that involve minimal cost (free or cheap online dating apps) or where intermediary truly wants you to succeed and be happy (your own grandmother as matchmaker, for examine). Marriage agencies are worse than useless. Quality Ukrainian women have no need to use marriage agencies to find boyfriends / husbands, so women at these agencies are either junk women (bad looking and / or bad personalities) or scammers (or maybe professional working girls if you're lucky).

2. Many working girls, especially those over age 25 or so, would prefer to have one or a small number of quality sponsors versus a parade of one-time clients. Escorts who want to become mistresses are perfect for foreign men seeking LTRs. Much better, IMO, than leftover women (women over age 25 who never worked as an escort but also never got married, either due to personality problems or not physically attractive). Single mothers another possibility, but quality civilian single mothers tend to go very slowly and foreign men are often short on time. Single mothers also often develop strongly independent and self-sufficient personality. Good character qualities in a business associate, not so good in a lover.

3. Marriage is obsolete. If a woman wants children, she can have them as a single mother and get child support. Be aware that Ukraine is a signatory to the Hague convention on child support, with all that entails. Only reason for marrying a Ukrainian woman is to get residency in Ukraine. Be careful about marrying if you have wealth that a wife would inherit upon your death. Income but no wealth is much safer. Consider annuitizing wealth, so as to convert into stream of income that stops upon your death, so that no one (besides insurance company) has incentive to see you die prematurely.

4.Never take a Ukrainian woman out of Ukraine permanently (short trips are fine). Men need to move to Ukraine if they want to ongoing access to the woman's body.

5. Treat all women as working girls. If a woman is not at least semi-pro when you meet her, try to convert her to semi-pro by being explicit about quantity of money or equivalent (gifts, vacations, restaurant meals, etc) given per sex act. If she reacts negatively, good riddance, because she'll just be trouble eventually. Ukrainian women seek out foreign men primarily for money, never forget that. If all a woman wants is sex or companionship, plenty of local men for that. When a Ukrainian woman seeks a foreign man but rejects explicit exchange of his money for her body, something is amiss. Either she is planning a scam or she is a fool of some sort. Scammer by far preferable, since nothing more dangerous than an unpredictable fool. Explicit exchange of man's money for woman's body should continue as long as relationship continues. Even if you are feeling generous and want to give a surprise gift, wait until immediately after sex, then present the gift. Relentlessly condition her to expect money and gifts in exchange for sex, and only in exchange for sex.

6. Never give money or equivalents (gifts, vacations, restaurant meals, etc) without first receiving sex. Don't ask for free samples of a woman's body, don't give free samples of your money and what it can buy. Trivial payment for coffee at first meeting is okay. You can also pay round-trip transportation and compensation for time if a woman meets for coffee, made no misrepresentations in her online profile, and otherwise behaves honestly. At first visit to your apartment, counted money should remain on the table until after sex, in case of last minute change of mind.

7. To minimize problems with last minute change of mind, engage in some sort of intimate touching at coffee meeting. For example, ask woman to put her arm on the table. Then put your hand on her wrist and let it relax, so she feels the full weight and warmth, then just keep it there without saying anything for several minutes. When she pulls away, tell her she can leave now, but you want to stay and finish your coffee. If she asks what went wrong, then interrogate her calmly but persistently as to why she pulled away: "You don't like me touching you? But you pulled away, there must be a reason. You don't know the reason? Why did you put your arm on the table when I initially asked you to do so?" If she rebels in any way during the interrogation, good riddance, she'll just be trouble later. Otherwise, ask her to put her arm back on the table, put your hand back on her wrist, wait silently again for several minute, then invite her to your apartment.

8. Inability to put her smartphone away during the coffee meeting should be a deal killer. Unlike with the hand on her wrist compliance test, no reason to give second chances where smartphone etiquette is concerned. Save your money and give it to a more deserving girl.

9. Don't promise anything you cannot deliver on. Fulfill all promises, including promised threats. In general, under promise and over deliver.

10. Don't expect monogamy from Ukrainian women, especially if you are much older than her, or much less handsome than she is beautiful.