Kyiv

[DramaFree11]

Stevie tell us how you can do a "pool" like yours.

Really, you say no to escort sites (I fully agree); no to apartment's girls, maybe tinder / mamba but I think it's more like escort sites.

But if I have to go around kreshatik trying with young girls walking around, I don't think it will be a success.

You are totally correct the last place you want to go in Kiev for girls is K. Street. You are in for a rude awakening if you plan on hanging out there and getting anything above a 5. Normal Girls will not hang out there now, has a very bad reputation and the avoid that part of town. The further you get away from the center your chance, but this will take a lot of work. You need to meet at least 25 girls to meet one decent, good luck with that. I have always said meeting girls on the street is your best chance to meet decent girls.

[Arkiloko]

The great thing about Kiev is that you can have a gorgeous 20 year old student of 30 year old single mum for a reasonable price (1000 to 2000 UAH! In one hour they can make as much as they could make in a week, so if they find you even remotely attractive, they would be happy so spend some quality time with you.

Stevie tell us how you can do a "pool" like yours.

Really, you say no to escort sites (I fully agree); no to apartment's girls, maybe tinder / mamba but I think it's more like escort sites.

But if I have to go around kreshatik trying with young girls walking around, I don't think it will be a success.

[Stevie69]

Several thoughts, specific to Kiev and in general.

ABOUT GUYS TO OVERPAY. Whether they think that money will buy them love, or are just fooled into paying far more than they would have to pay back home, I think they do make it more difficult for everyone else. As girls become more experienced in the trade, they hear about these gold mines, or sometimes stumble upon them accidentally. Naturally, they will try to hold other opportunities at bay in the hope of landing high-paying gigs.

Imagine if you are unemployed, and you know there are jobs out there for which you are fully qualified but difficult to get that pay 100 K / year (choose your currency). Alternatively, you can easily get a 25 K / year job that might actually be enough for you to live. You will try to hold on for the 100 K job for as long as you can. It is not only the money, but also the time. If you take that low paying job you will have no time to search for that high paying job.

Same goes for working girls. It is even worse because these are not jobs, but rather short –term gigs. Furthermore, at the rate some of you guys are paying, the comparison should not be between 25 K and 100 K, but maybe between 25 K and 250 K. Finally, if the girls are not greedy and work only as much as they need to make ends meet, one high paying gig can take them off the market for days, weeks, and they ways some guys here pay, even months.

Of course, the competition for these high paying gigs is intense. Yes, a girl online gets contacted by dozens of men who are willing to overpay. However, these guys are willing to overpay for many girls, not only her. The hotter she is, the more time she will have to spend figuring out who is real, who has the most Grivnas to waste, and who is stupid enough to do so. At the same time, she is competing with dozens or even hundreds of girls who are focused on high paying gigs only. You can tell because of how quickly you get a reply, sometimes within seconds. They know that you are calling everyone, not just her, and they better act quickly.

So, I really doubt that all mamba girls are getting several thousand UAH for their work. Maybe a few are doing so, occasionally, but the rest are either spending their time seeking high paying gigs, or just taking more reasonable offers.

THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS- Finding clients is just the cost of doing business. Buying nice clothes, high heels, make-up, and paying for taxis are just part of doing business. Ditto for security, if they deem it necessary. It is all included when the prices is calculated and negotiated.

THE INTERNET AND PRICES- I remember back in the early 90's, I do not remember the exact year, when the price of insurance suddenly plummeted without any apparent reason. Well, they would not tell the reason why, one year later, your premiums suddenly dropped precipitously. The reason was that average customers had more selection. The effect does not work in the opposite direction because high paying customers already had a high number of opportunities. To oligarchs, pretty young women are what mosquitoes are to a moose; they are always surrounded by a cloud of them.

APARTMENT GIRLS- Really? Do you really want to be the 5th or 10th guy of her shift? The great thing about Kiev is that you can have a gorgeous 20 year old student of 30 year old single mum for a reasonable price (1000 to 2000 UAH! In one hour they can make as much as they could make in a week, so if they find you even remotely attractive, they would be happy so spend some quality time with you. If you are mildly repulsive, you might have to fork out 2500 UAH. The best moment for me is when the girl momentarily forgets that she is doing it for the money, and she displays spontaneous joy and affection. I prefer it when (I think that) I am the only man she has had sex with that day. Maybe I am just a romantic.

MY STRATEGY- I will be back in June, July, and maybe August. I have a handful of 5-10 regulars, some of whom already know that I am coming. It is a rotating pool of students and young mums who are always happy to introduce me to their friends. As some drop out, others enter the pool. For women, the scariest part of the job is meeting with a strange man to do something that is technically illegal. Not only could the man be dangerous, but he could be ugly, fat, smelly, disgusting, or just a really bad lover. So, recommendations by word of mouth work perfectly.

In addition, I also try Badoo, Mamba, and Tinder, and sometimes pull one or two that are worth remembering for next time. I have never had any success with any of the escort sites, except many years ago with GIA. I got exactly what was offered, but yes, I overpaid, but then I learned.

I also have a much larger pool of what I call "long term pros" or "lifetime pros", women who are seeking marriage. I have already contacted them online and emailed or texted on and off for a few weeks or even months. Many will become unavailable as soon as I arrive. Of the rest, they will only lead to a coffee, a lunch, or a walk in the park, at least in the first meeting. Some will want to go to an expensive restaurant, and occasionally there will be one that is a real scammer. Luckily, I know what to look for and I have learned how to say "NO' in several languages (English, Italian, Spanish. . .). Only twice have I had sex on the first meeting, a few times in the second, and more often by the third. It is a balance between using their sexuality to get me hooked while not seeming too easy to be a long term partner. Maybe I will find the one who will make me want to give up all the others. Can it happen? I do not know. I do know, however, that, if it ever happens, I will have to retire early and move to Ukraine. There is no way I am marrying anyone in a western gynocentric society!

[Kozerog]

A hot girl anywhere will not have a problem making 10 k a month with a sugar daddy.

$10 K / month after tax means maybe $20 K pre-tax in high tax countries, plus man needs money for himself, plus most rich men have families, so more money for children and wife / ex-wife. Maybe $500 K / year pre-tax to afford $10 K / month sugar baby. Supply of such men severely limited worldwide. Supply of pretty 20 yo girls is vastly larger.

Limited supply of famous 20 yo instagram "influencers" who know how to make themselves stand out from ordinary pretty 20 yo girls using makeup and clever photography tricks, so if chasing famous girls is your thing, then yes, you might have to pay up.

[Kozerog]

Let's be clear about grinding away in Kiev. You are going to meet 10-20 girls to find one Quality Girl, depending on your standards, maybe little more or less. This takes a significant budget, time and effort, so be prepared.

First post you've ever made where I'm more pessimistic. Maybe 30 to 1 if you have my standards. So what? Experienced Kyiv mongers understand that Kyiv is best suited for long term sponsoring of semi-pros, many of whom who are not on mamba and not even actively seeking customers, and who exercise "face control", meaning you have to seduce them just like regular girlfriends. Yes, getting those sorts of girls does indeed take lots of time. Ideally, man will spend several months a year in Kyiv each year for years on end, so that he builds up a harem like PhotoSlider or simply has one reliable girl like me.

Given how cheap Kyiv is, girl who can earn $100 working there just 3 days a week on average, or about $15000 / year, is doing better than one making twice that in Moscow or four times that in London. Plus she doesn't have to leave family and friends behind. Plus smart girls (and isn't being smart part of what we mean by quality?) understand that escorting is not forever, and they have to invest for the future. Buying real estate in Kyiv much cheaper than in Moscow or London, and less risk of scams for native Ukrainians than foreigners.

On another topic. Interesting site at https://www.aemal.org/. AEMOL probably acronym for "agentsvo escort-modelej". Primary author of articles evidently original mamasan at Kiev Escort Club / Gia agency (some articles still use Gia name). Lots of insight in articles into minds of girls attracted to sex work: appalled by word "prostitute"; dazzled by word "model"; soothed by notion that clients mostly "successful businessmen" in their 30's and 40's, versus unspecified something else (drunken Brits on stag party vacation, crude lower class village Turks, smelly old pensioners, etc); concerned about safety (only travel internationally to clients verified by agency, etc) and agency abuse (no arbitrary fines because of alleged customer complained, not required to live in company apartment and account for every minute of time to prevent seeing clients behind agency's back, only one high-paying client per day rather than multiple low-paying clients, etc).

[DramaFree11]

Let's be clear about grinding away in Kiev. You are going to meet 10-20 girls to find one Quality Girl, depending on your standards, maybe little more or less. This takes a significant budget, time and effort, so be prepared.

[DramaFree11]

Until you've looked closely into the day to day life of an outcall escort, you have no idea how difficult it can be getting customers to actually show up and pay. There is a concept of "timewasters", meaning guys who call up and talk to escorts and discuss services and prices, but never schedule a meeting. Instead they use the excitement of talking to a real live escort as fodder for a monster wank session. Or worse, they actually schedule the meeting but at a fake address. Ratio of timewasters to bonafide callers is typically 10 to 1, and that's only counting the guys who call, not the ones who just fantasize without calling.

Sorry, I have respectably disagree.

Example P.S.

1. Is on big budget and spends a great deal of time networking.

2. Also leaves out major details and exaggerated.

3. Standards are debatable.

Lots of Guys with running the streets in Kiev with money.

Girls have multiple options.

1. Traveling to other countries.

2. Working at High End Strip / Agencies.

High End girls or even slightly above average are not going to bang guys for multiple hours for $70. Also, when you add in Travel Expenses / Time you are paying way more then the rate they are claiming for average girls.

[Kozerog]

Also people come here thinking their $200 will get them a 10 and that is not the case. Cute (but not hot) Mamba girls are making 3000-5000 USD per month. Do not be a fool and think they are poor students. I have seen one semi-pros Tinder accounts and she had over 6000 people that had swiped her right (Tinder Gold). She could literally swipe 6000 profiles and each guy would want to fuck her. On Mamba, they get 100-200 emails a day. How many would pay $100 for two hours? I am guessing a large percentage of foreigners would.

Until you've looked closely into the day to day life of an outcall escort, you have no idea how difficult it can be getting customers to actually show up and pay. There is a concept of "timewasters", meaning guys who call up and talk to escorts and discuss services and prices, but never schedule a meeting. Instead they use the excitement of talking to a real live escort as fodder for a monster wank session. Or worse, they actually schedule the meeting but at a fake address. Ratio of timewasters to bonafide callers is typically 10 to 1, and that's only counting the guys who call, not the ones who just fantasize without calling.

Fact is, most guys nowadays even in a country as rich as the USA are broke nobodies for whom even $50/ hour is a painful hit to the wallet. For average Turks, $100 is big money. For average sex-starved Indians and Pakistanis (perhaps the bulk of these 6000 foreigners), $100 is very big money.

Yes, SOME mamba girls are making $5000/ month. Most are making next to nothing, especially if they are selective about who they meet.

In other words, you are guessing wrong that a large percentage of foreigners who swiped right will actually carry through with handing over $100 in hard cash. For most, having to pay ruins the illusion of a beautiful girl finding the man sexually attractive. Others are intimidated by the idea of meeting a girl way over their own sexual market value. Others will be content to wank off to the fantasy of meeting and avoid messy reality, with or without wasting the girls time as discussed above. Others simply can't afford $100.

Technology has changed everything. 20 years ago a girl had no way to find a paying guy except with a pimp, working the streets or in a maybe in a club. It is easy to be an online independent workers now and I laugh because you older guys do not get it.

Actually, some of us old men understand modern business very well. Internet commerce definitely crushes old-school middlemen (bricks and mortar stores, pimps, agencies, etc), but what it does to the balance of power between buyers and sellers depends on the particular market in question. For example, internet absolutely destroyed recorded music sellers despite greatly increased demand for recorded music. Likewise, free video porn has destroyed paid porn. Whereas writers of books are mostly doing better than ever, since lower list prices on ebooks are compensated for by higher total sales and cutting out publisher middlemen.

With respect to paid sex, my impression is that prices are being driven down in most rich counties due to the huge increase in supply by semi-pros, especially the sugar daddy / baby phenomenon, and reduced demand due to increased use of sex substitutes (wanking to video porn or cam girls) and harder economic conditions for young men such that they can't afford the real thing as much as previously.

I lurk at the SAAFE forum, where British escorts talk shop, and they are unanimous in agreeing that prices have been crushed over the past 30 years partly due to reduced demand (more wanking by guys too broke to pay for the real thing) but mostly by greatly increased supply, partly from influx of East Europeans, partly from native Brits, because less of a stigma associated with escorting among younger girls and because harder economic situation for young civilian girls in Britain than 30 years ago.

Now, of course, Ukraine is not a rich country like Britain and influx of East Europeans to London means outflux from Kyiv, among other places. But nevertheless, I think the same factors that are driving down prices in London are also operating in Kyiv. When a girl no longer has to pay big pimp or agency fees, basic microeconomic theory tells us prices will drop. Yes, there is increased demand from Turks with more disposable income and easier access to Ukraine by low cost airlines. But there is also increased supply due to bad economic conditions in Ukraine since 2014 (or maybe even since 2009).

What about Thailand, where prices are said to be rising? Probably that is mainly due to rising wealth in Thailand overall than due to technological changes affecting the paid sex market. Thailand was once very poor, now it is less poor. If per capita GDP doubles, sex prices can also be expected to double, all other things being equal.

What about girls at Kyiv strip bars demanding $250/hour? Proves nothing except higher supply of rich Arabs, since most sex business takes place away from those strip bars.

Enough theory. On the ground reports by guys like PhotoSlider and Steve69 suggest no difficulty getting quality girls at $100 for 2 hours, at least for guys who know what they are doing and don't act like simps. I have no problems getting my quality girl for $150 for 4 hours (I like longer sessions). Whether these "quality" girls are 10's or not, I'm not going to waste time arguing. Under 25yo and "pretty" should be sufficient to men aged 40 and above. (Admittedly, my girl is 28, which is fine with me, since I'm more concerned with personality compatibility than age at this point.).

[Visal]

Hello other Forum members,

I am new here.

Visiting next weekend Kiev.

What are at the Moment the places to Be in Kiev?

Top 5 Hotspots for Bar and discos.

What are good places to be at Friday / Saturday / Sunday: afternoon / Night.

Any other recommendations for visiting Kiev.

Greeting from Amsterdam.

You should not miss out the maidan and Dnipro river-beach as tourist attractions. I would suggest Rio club if you do not want to get mugged by the bouncers. City is totally safe but beware of a few notorious clubs.

[Riina]

There are only two clubs which are good and the competition for the good looking girls is fierce.

What clubs?

[Visal]

Guys I am in Kiev for the 3rd time in a year. I have been here in summer, unfortunately in winter and now fortunately again in summer.

Lets meet up, go to the best clubs together, hang around with each other's babes or something. Beer is on me!

Private message me.

[Kozerog]

Yes. But why let it get to that point? Any advice that ends with "run screaming" is probably not sound advice...

I actually wouldn't scream. Just running down the street would suffice, because anyone following would stop as soon as they saw the police cars.

Anyway, your advice is good and close to what I did back in summer 2017 when I was grinding through girls to find a keeper. Once I made it clear I would send the girl away without taxi fare if she didn't match photo, no further problems with fake photos agency girls. And never had such problems with independents. Still had problems with personalities that weren't compatible, but that's not a scam, just the normal process of finding someone I really like.

In any case, comforting to have police station nearby just to deter street crime. Street crime currently minimal in central Kyiv, but can be a serious issue in run down districts on the outskirts of the city, or so I've been told. For example, near locations labelled Vyshneve (right bank) or Troieshchyna (left bank) on google maps.

[TinyHippo]

Yes. But why let it get to that point? Any advice that ends with "run screaming" is probably not sound advice. Let us go back several steps. First, If the photos are taken form a professional "nude models" site, are otherwise clearly professional quality, are too good to be true, or are otherwise clearly fake, then do not take the bait. Second, tell the girl to send you her photos on Whatsapp, viber, email or skype. Third, tell her once, twice, and three times, that if she is not the girl in the photos, you will send her back. Third, wait for her outside the apartment, sitting casually on a nearby bench. Presumably, she does not know how YOU look, and even if you have your photo on viber, surely you know how to blend in. If the girl who shows up is not the one in the photos, just text her to tell her "thank you but you are not the girl in the photo" (if you feel polite, as she wasted your time too! And immediately block her number. Finally, just move on with the next girl on your list..

You give common sense advice, but it looks like a lot of people need it. Never have a girl come to your room or apartment. Meet them in the front of the hotel or of a restaurant nearby. Some girls will insist on coming straight to your room and that should be a warning sign for you. Have some good excuses like you are at dinner / eating, you need a card key for elevator, or the buzzer / intercom in the apartment is broken.

Also there are many scams on both ways. Girls are given fake money, blackmailed, and all kinds of weird shit. So, some use fake photos because they are much uglier but some just do it for safety. Most will give you real photos on Viber or Viber video chat with you for a minute. Meeting them outside in this nice weather will let you scout their body at least. Of the people that reply to you on Mamba 50% will be pimps / agency and 25% real girls. I still think Mamba is a lot of work. If you have 10 Viber numbers when you land, maybe you will only meet 3-4 girls.

I still love Kyiv though. Ukrainian girls love foreigners and I am still having a bit of success on Tinder / Instagram for normal romances. For all of you that complain about the old days, those days are gone everywhere. Instagram has killed prices globally, but at the same time it has made girls more open to sex for money because they want what they see everyday online (travel, clothes, nice restaurants). I know average looking Kyiv girls being flown to Germany or Switzerland for $$ A hot girl anywhere will not have a problem making 10 k a month with a sugar daddy. Our job is to find the newbies or shy ones before they go "pro".

[DramaFree11]

I see. It makes sense.

I was in Kiev for a week, so no comparison in terms of experience.

My time was good, I had 2 mambs cobtacts ready and they turned out to be genuine. But it was just ine week, ao hard to make a judgement.

I was planning to go again to Kiev next month, but I think I will go to Moscow. Sounds like a much better option.

God choice. Moscow is a million times been. Let me know if you need any help.

[Gargano19]

1. Too Many Scams and everyone lies. (Lying is a sport in Kiev, both male and females take part in this.

A. I got tired of watching friends getting screwed over.

2. Zero Night Life.

3. Way too many low end Sex Tourists pretending to be Italian Dudes.

4. Top Tier and Educated leaving the country.

A. Never talked about by the so called experts on this site, amazing. Major problem.

5. Strip Clubs and Top end Agencies major rip off to bang 6's or even lower, for $150 an hour or more, no way.

6. Why would anyone fly around the world to bang 5/6 for more money, then they would pay in there native country, makes zero sense.

Good Things.

1. City is Cheap.

2. Most People very nice, the further you get away from the center even better.

3. Food is above average.

4. Safe.

5. Opera / Theater is amazing.

6. Many things to do during the day, city empties a night.

I see. It makes sense.

I was in Kiev for a week, so no comparison in terms of experience.

My time was good, I had 2 mambs cobtacts ready and they turned out to be genuine. But it was just ine week, ao hard to make a judgement.

I was planning to go again to Kiev next month, but I think I will go to Moscow. Sounds like a much better option.