Kyiv

[CharlieH]

To Street Sleuth and Robert: Very nice insights, thanks.

[CharlieH]

My friends and I have a possible NO GO criteria for girls - ......... speaks english very well.......

Very true. As soon as I hear excellent English I say never mind and move on to the next girl. This and girls have traveled abroad are no go for me, too.

[Irish Lad]

Hello all,

With regards to manners in Ukraine, if it feels wrong it is wrong.

On a date, a girl should respect your company and your wallet. I walked away from a date because she told me that a 15 hrivna taxi fare for 30 hrivna was normal. If she arrives to your meeting with a bad attitude then tell her to go fuck herself and anyone who looks like her. Trust me, you're not missing anything.

[Xasik]

Gentlemen foreigners, I'm Ukrainian citizen I have lgood experience connecting with foreigner and doing some services.

Leting you know that Kiev is changing every day and it's getting more and more expensive. So let us say about renting an apartment at the centre I mean near to Kreshiatik main street, 1 room 3 stars starting from 60$ 2 rooms starting from 80$ ect.

Having a good time with escort services it's start 100$ one hour.anyway, if I could help somehow, let me know.

[Robert1110]

Street,

I watch my date very carefully when they order. I use the exact same test. Nice to the waitress, nice to people in general.

Talk down or rudely to the waitress. I might stick around for the sex but there is no future.

I might start another thread on this topic. Why do women think all we want is sex?

Have they ever stopped to think it might be because they have nothing else to offer? Friendship, companionship? Who wants to hang out with a *****? Do you see men hanging out with women in a situation where we are not trying to fuck them?

More and more, when a woman tells me "all men (or you) want is sex" I usually stop them and ask them to examine what they are saying. I tell them, "you are already telling me that men leave you once they get the sex they want from U. Have to ever stopped to think it is because you have nothing else to offer? "

You should see some of the puzzled looks I get as they re-translate what I just said to be sure it is what they just heard.

[Street Sleuth]

There was a mention in a report about 'manners' (or the Russian lack thereof).

I held off on replying with my 2 cents, as I viewed it as an off-topic subject...but the more I thought about it, it is a pertinent issue, at least for those who spend any amount of time in-country (one week tourists need pay no attention).

I am highly intolerant of anyone with bad manners. Now, I have to clarify, 'manners' are relative. Most Americans complain that Russians have bad manners - but you will hear just as often Russians complaining of Americans having bad manners. What is acceptable behavior in one country, is rude in another. That said, I am basing this on my American engrained sense of manners, wherein the British have the best manners, Americans are certainly somewhere in the top 5, and Russians are way down at the bottom.

The way I figure it, regardelss of what is acceptable to any given society, a good-hearted girl will have good manners. This is where the subject is most pertinent - one way I weed out girls is to go out with them (first date) to a cafe - it can't be an uppety place - just a mid/lower range place. I allow the girl to take charge of ordering (I pretend to speak Russian too poorly to order), and watch her behavior with the waiter/waitress. If she speaks to the staff in, "girl/boy, gimmi this, gimmi that, gimmi gimmi gimmi", she is out. Of note - most girls in Ukraine fail this test.

Like I said, manners are relative - I get chewed out on a regular basis for putting my feet up (this drives Russians crazy). They really see it as bad manners. I see it as a health issue (better blood flow). Maybe if the girls would squak less, and put their own feet up more, they wouldn't end up fat and ugly by 32.

On the gift-giving issue - not only do I not give gifts of any value in the early stages (certainly no cell-phones or furs), I often ask girls to buy me a gift (as another means of weeding through girls).

70% get real bitchy, and reply I'm the man, and should spend money on them.

20% take it as the joke that it really is, and laugh it off.

10% actually buy me a gift!

I have yet to recieve a cell phone though....

[Robert1110]

Which phone are you talking about Robert? The Razr or the N93i? The Razr was all over the place this time last year in Kiev. You see less of it now because it is passe - Samsung sliders seem to be the current 'in' phone. The upscale girls seem to be carrying the long slim metallic Nokia slider, the one with the battery that last about an hour, most of them are already on their sponor to buy them a Sirrocco (take note Hecker). You won't be seeing much of the N93i in Kiev, it's too big and too much of a techie phone. Anyone who has the $1k+ it costs in Kiev to drop on it is going to buy a fashion phone. BTW - the video I posted of the Connection was taken using a N93. Considering the camera was about 30 meters away it does a good job.

Spanish, I'm not at all surprised that the girls at RP are refusing to do BBBJ's. Most of the pro's won't do it anymore and only a small percentage of the semi pro's. Either it goes hand in hand with the $300/hr prices or too many of the girls were getting HSV or HPV.

I should have directed that post to 109.

Yes the videophone is too bulky and costly.

They will go for the fashion phone.

[Doctor_Skank]

Spanish:

Cruiser is right.

The days of most pros doing BBBJ with first time clients are "almost" over.

In fact, even 3 years ago it became less and less common.

Here some ideas:

* Asking for "the menu" upfront can work with many girls, but very few will say they do BBBJ upfront. You have a much better chance to get this just by creating great atmosphere and real connection back in your apartment/hotel. They're just girls and you can talk them into "almost" anything.

* I don't blame the girls at all. It's their health.

* Many clubs, especially salons etc. FORBID their girls to do it. Pickup bars/clubs ala RO and NF (Moscow) don't forbid the girls, but most avoid it unless the really trust the guy. They know they don't have to with Western clients and there is no reason to take extra health risks.

* I agree that it really sucks! BBBJ is one of life's greatest pleasures.

* Best pro-BBBJ is in German FKKs. It's standard.

* BBBJ is Yanukovich-era. CBJ is soooo Yuschenko. I hate that crater-faced bastard and what he's done to Ukraine.

* Get yourself a normal girlfriend. They don't even know what CBJ is.

* Don't give up on it, many still will if given the right motivation.

Good luck fellas, and thanks for all the great reports lately. Good work all!

[Cruiser D]

Which phone are you talking about Robert? The Razr or the N93i? The Razr was all over the place this time last year in Kiev. You see less of it now because it is passe - Samsung sliders seem to be the current 'in' phone. The upscale girls seem to be carrying the long slim metallic Nokia slider, the one with the battery that last about an hour, most of them are already on their sponor to buy them a Sirrocco (take note Hecker). You won't be seeing much of the N93i in Kiev, it's too big and too much of a techie phone. Anyone who has the $1k+ it costs in Kiev to drop on it is going to buy a fashion phone. BTW - the video I posted of the Connection was taken using a N93. Considering the camera was about 30 meters away it does a good job.

Spanish, I'm not at all surprised that the girls at RP are refusing to do BBBJ's. Most of the pro's won't do it anymore and only a small percentage of the semi pro's. Either it goes hand in hand with the $300/hr prices or too many of the girls were getting HSV or HPV.

[Robert1110]

It is amazing how difficult it is to find BBBJ on the pro scene. There is one website (and I will try and find, I think it has been mentioned here) and it features nearly all the women will do BBBJ.

On the other hand, my semi-pros and "normal" girls do BBBJ and most no condom at all. These 2-3 (and it rotates, one drops out and a new one is added) girls are my "regulars" and usually are single or divorced mothers. If they have other men, I think it is the same situaion, the see the same guy for as long as he does not tire of them.

And I guess that is part of the equation. How fast do you tire of them?

Charlie Sheen is famous for saying "You do not pay a prostitute for sex, you pay them to leave".

It is very true. How many times have you fucked a girl, cum still in her hair and face and you cannot get rid of her fast enough?

If I see a girl once or twice a week, it seems to be the best. I am happy to see and fuck them again and it has been long enough that I am not tired of them.

It is interesting to me actually, that I am finding that a woman to me is a matter of degree to how much I want her to stick around if we are not fucking.

I think they range from girls who I want to send away as soon as possible after sex (the vast majority) to girls I actually like and do not mind them hanging around (usually for more sex) to those (one) who I can have in my flat for a week or two and not tire of her.

Unfortunately, this one is the one I desire sex with the least. And she is the best girl (in terms of looks and personality) of them all. Just my luck. I find the "perfect" girl and I do not like fucking her. I'd rather fuck any other girl. It's that bad. Nothing wrong with her, she is just not the girl I like in bed.

I am 50, she is 23 and most guys will agree a solid 8 at least. She would make a perfect wife if I had the desire to fuck her 2, 3, 4 times a day.

Cuts my hair, "deletes" my "ear beard", prepares so much food for me it spoils before I can eat it all, cleans my flat. She says she is taking care of her "pig". If I married this girl, she would wipe my ass and change my "depends" until the day I croak in her loving arms.

And, all the while I can be sitting at the computer trying to find another girl to fuck and she will help me. She will call them for me if they do not speak good english and help me to meet them.

When I go to her city, she basically lives with me, going to work during the day. I see the girls I can see during the day and if I have to see a girl in the evening, I tell her I will call her and tell her when she can come "home".

She has found a bra and panties in the bedsheets from 2 different 18yr olds I had at the same time. (I swear women do this on purpose so you get busted by the next girl). What did she do? Threw them in the trash, changed the sheets on the bed and I fucked her that night. Off to work the next morning, leaving me to see my other girls.

I think there are 3 major levels in the brain and I think the quality of the relatinship depends largely on how well you connect on these levels.

I have read about the "triune" brain. Briefly, there are 3 centers of the brain. The body (sex), the heart (emotions) and the mind (intellect).

I think most of these sex encounters we all have are with women we connect with, of course, with the body, or sexual desires we all have. If you start connecting on an emotional and/or intellectual level, I think the interest in each other beyond sex develops and this is where we start having deeper or more serious relations, if that is what you are looking for or want. I think even if it is something you are not looking for, it happens if you meet that right combination in any particular girl.

I think if I find a girl I connect with on all three levels, I'll run off with her and live near the sea in crimea or something and fuck her brains out until I die. Preferably of a sudden heart attack during sex.

[Hecker]

I have also noticed that american girls behave much differently. Once an american girl left me because she said in USA I was treated as a queen by my boyfriend and american boys know how to treat women like princesses. These girls have certain guidelines and are influenced by feminism.

In Ukraine, Russia somebody has to understand the slavicorthodox mentality of giving and being generous, that is the girl gives plenty of love and expects you to give plenty of emotion, or even financial help, whatever you have. She offers and waits for offer, if you offer she will offer you back. (Now westernization changes it gradually). This is not the case in catholic countries (Poland) where there are strong ethics and rules. It does also not regard protestant countries (free beahaviour, atomic responsibility). In catholic countries the girl will punish you if she does not like your behaviour, in orthodox countries she will give more love to compensate for something she thinks she has done wrong.

I noticed in Carribean club an american starting to speak with the girl I had picked up there. I was amazed, he knew russian phrases and was doing exactly the right thing, asking the right questions, etc. However it was very mechanical, he lacked the soul. On the other hand british guys who completely lack any pick-up skills and just cannot talk and behave the right way to girls get laid all the time. It is impossible to pick up girls when there are british guys around. I think their attitude brings it, arrogance, british charm, they seem more interesting, extraordinary. Italians are also good they can talk to girls very well, they are dressed in fashion, are superficial and very pleasant. They tend to bring girls to larger companies where they create a lot of fun with their friends. Arabs, Turks are dangerous, they just try to not let you approach the girls they want to hit and like Latins have a pretty much macho attitude.

EDITOR'S NOTE: I certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please Click Here for more information.

[Spanish Fly]

I just got to Kiev for a 5 days bussinpleasure trip.

Arrived at Midnight, got a ride from my regular driver (well, saying regular is maybe too much, it's my third trip to Kiev), and off we go to my apartment. Close to K street, newly renovated, jacuzzi, fast internet, nice tv and stereo, etc. (of course in a SHITTY soviet building) 140USD a day. Maybe a little bit too much, but not so bad for a last minute reservation. Certainly a much better value for the money that my last visit to Ukraine Hotel in Moscow at 220USD a night.

After the necessary shower, I ask my driver that I want to have a beer and he takes me to Pa-Ti-Pa, but they are closing (2: 30 am on a Wednesday) and we go to a small club called "DISCO" (appearently it just have changed the name). Almost no people at all (3-4 girls dancing, 7-8 guys looking them ansxiously from the bar. I decide to leave after the first beer and no better expectations.

Let's hit RP! (something like last chance at 3: 00am, especially if you have to work in the morning and you just landed). We got there, the usual crowd, and some good material. Some familiar faces (girls) from my last visit, and after drinking the first Jack Daniels and watch the scene from one of the dance floor small tables, I got up and go to the bar. I feel surprinsingly selective tonight, and I am about to leave the place with empy hands when I spot this gorgous Masha girl (blond, 1. 70m, around 20y. O. PERFECT tits, close-to-perfect eyes, next-door type girl, just the way I like them.

But, too bad, she is talking to this american guy who seems to be trying to convince her of something. After a few seconds she spots me and makes me a signal of waiting while she gets rid of the guy (after that, she claims she have been almost harrased by this guy, for two years, she says, wanting her for free.)

To cut a long story short, her first offer is 300USD for 1 hour (I almost die from laughing) quickly droping to 150 for 2 hours (hey, it's 3: 45am! ). Thanks to this forum fot the never-to-miss hint of negotiation EVERYTHING before, because when we were almost leaving the place, I say that BBJ is a must for me, and she backs up. (No, no, no. Blah, blah, blah.) In a desperate moment, I rise the offer to 200USD and even 250USD (actually, my little friend took over during this part of the negotiation, and to my shocking face, she REFUSES. Hey, when has this country gone to hell?

I left her my number in case she changes her mind (I don't actually expect a call, but hell, who knows.), and leave the place, half shocked, half upset, half frustrated. Actually too frustrated to pick another girl, so I am writing you this report, back at my apartment, ALONE!

Strike One. All right, don't panic! I am cutting my losses, and keeping my forces for tomorrow, Thursday, when I will be sampling the freebie market. I will keep you posted.

If anyone in the forum is around and want to share a table and a few beers at some local facility, PM me.

By the way, it's 16 ºC and dropping. Lousy choice for a mongering weeking.

One last question to the forum. Better alternatives for normal/semi-pros on a wednesady night?

Regards from the chilly Kiev.

[Robert1110]

Half the girls on K Street already have that phone crusier. ;.)

Seriously. I did see one girl who had one. I see some real good phones, sometimes 2, in the hands of these girls. It is a cool phone.

It is hit or miss here. I went to k street to meet a girl from the internet. While I was waiting for her, I need to move the bench seat back as they were pushed too close to the table. I had to ask the girl on the seat behind me to move hers up so I could move mine back. She was young, spoke english and she and her friend were pounding back the tequila. I was impressed. And it was only 16: 00

Long story short, got the number of the one I asked to move her seat. She flirted with me when she would go to the bathroom and come back. In a way that the girl I was meeting would not see.

After my meeting was over, I turned around, chatted them up a bit, was invited to sit and drink with them. The other girl lives with her extemely rich 30yr old BF, a ukrainian who apparently owns several companies and builds factories. She was chunky by my standards and maybe a 6-7 in the face. I thought a rich ukrainan could do better. But she says she only sees him early in the morning and then at midnight so. Her friend, the one I have the number, is the company translator. The rich BF is out of the country so the girls are partying. They left to go to avalon. And I know they were feeling the effects of at least 5 rounds or more of tequila. I'll give her a chance to SMS me and if not, I'll sms her in a couple days and see if she wants to meet. She told me a few times I was a nice man or something like that. I can talk in the right situations and have a small game going for me.

All you have to do is be in a situation where you can strike up any conversation. I think it is 109 that says something about most americans do not have any "game" and that was the my case. I had to devlop my game here and it came with a better understanding of the culture and the woman here. I was one of those men who would come here for a month and meet the agency girls. You bet I got played until I saw what was going on. I only would get taken adavantage of once in any particualr manner, but they have many methods.

In the USA, it was easy for me. I know the rules. I got laid so much over the years I quit counting. I also agree with whoever said that american girls are far easier to score with on the first meeting or date. I also agree with whoever posted about the russian men having it easier for the same reasons we have it easier at home (of course, the american girls would fall for the accent and the unusualness, just as some women do here). They have the language, the knowledge of what's going on. And they well. Live here. I have found it is a distinct advantage to tell these ladies I live here and intend to stay for some time.

Back to the games they will play. (this happened about 2 years ago. I have learned a lot since then)

I have been contacted by a lady I met maybe a year ago at some agency party. She will sms me and tell me she is at a club (carrabean).come join her. Stupid me. I go, we drink, I have to pick up her prior tab (along with her GF), I find this out as I am getting our coats to leave. The bartender comes up presenting me with her bill. I turn to her, understand what she is doing and I basically make her promise me sex for getting the bill. She is holding on to me, agreeing. We had talked about sex back at the table while drinking. So she was "playing" along.

We get the taxi. We drop her friend off on k street. It is only a 2 blocks from my flat at the time. She will not get out of the taxi. Says it is her "woman's days". I know this is BS. In fact, if I ever hear it again, I am going to tell the girl to prove it. And I'm serious.

So I say. "ok, but as soon as you are ready, you're coming to me". Of course she says ok.

Next day I get sms. "all you want is sex".

Never saw her again and last I heard, she is married to the mule she used to get the the USA and nearer to her sister in ohio.

What first amazed me is how much some of these girls will do to get so little. The effort and time they put into getting a $30 handbag.

So. I have learned. Unless she is really special, I spend next to nothing but cafe's, drinks, small meals, maybe a inexpensive gift for the the ballet. But until they are steadliy fucking me, they are not getting anything more.

With girls I just want to fuck. I will do first meetings in the center. I live (to the girls) "far away". But if I can, I do first meetings close to my flat. Certainly second meetings.

In fact, lack of good english can be good. I use the "let's use my notebook back at my flat" trick.

EDITOR'S NOTE: I certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please Click Here for more information.

[Cruiser D]

Where have I seen that phone before? You can buy the N93i in the US. But the real question is who bought you a $800 phone and WHAT did you have to do for it. That phone is sexy. I remember bringing a Razr to Kiev in May of 2004 - no one knew what it was - girls were lining up just to touch it. I remember my main gf of the time telling me she didn't like my phone because it was too big. We went to Fellini's for dinner and she saw some model on F TV licking a Razr. Oh, is that your phone she said? Who's your daddy now...Kiev is so priceless, I love it. Where else can you get laid because of your cell phone? In the US you have to have at least a hot car. Seven months later every other person with a mobile phone in Kiev had a Razr. I almost left my Razr with someone when I left Kiev last week but I doubt she would have took it. Besides, the SIM card is full and there are another 250 phone number in the phone memory. The phone - an original V3 is worth about $5. But the numbers and the pictures it has taken are priceless.

Yes, yes, Hecker, quite right, quite right.

I think the editor is just taunting me now.

[One O Nine]

Speaking of sexy phones, 109 are you waiting for someone to sponsor you and buy you one? For a Russian your attitude towards mobile phones is very American. :P

I'm a proud owner of a fancy new Nokia N93i, a Europe-only model. I may be the only one in California to have one. 3.4 Megapixel, 1 gig of memory, video camera, etc.

When I twist it around and turn it into a video camera, people do a triple take. Chances are, when I walk down K-street and whip it out, I'll be knee deep in girls within minutes.