Kyiv

[Poker Player 2]

Sir,

I wish we all made as much sense as your writing here does. Thank you for your refreshing economy of words too.

I'm an actuary with 20 years experience. Thank you for explaining to me the concept of "average". .

The cost of living is higher in major cities, such as Kiev, and accordingly salaries are higher than in rural areas and towns.

Ps. I did not state that I was "concluding from it that people in most jobs are earning $625 per month". That would be the "mode", which typically differs from the average, unless it is a normal distribution.

[Howie]

Not 100% if this is the same 'Angela' but totally agree. Was almost perfect and a real star of RP back in the day. Really petite with big, but excellent boob job. killer ass and very pretty? Had the pleasure several times LOL and still have her number somewhere so might give it a try. (Last in contact early 2012) You never know!

Hey Fox7717 that sounds like her.

Yeah, give her a call or text her for a status update. I may be heading out to Kiev in the summer so it would be nice if she is still active.

Howie

[Fijiman]

Dear Fijiman,

Thank you for bringing the Wikipedia source to my attention. However, this resource does not necessarily support what you state in concluding from it that people in most jobs are earning $625 per month.

What you apparently did is simply go to the "average wage" column for Kiev city, and note that average monthly wages in 2013 were in excess of 5000 UAH per month. Then you took the 5000 UAH number and divided it by 8 (the exchange rate was $1 = 8 UAH for a number of years prior to the present crisis period) , and you arrived at the figure of $625 per month.

Did you note, in the chart you referenced, that the figure for the average wage in Kiev city was remarkably different than the average wage reported for every other oblast and district? Most other districts had an average wage reported in figures clustering around figures in the range of between 2700 UAH ($337. 50 USD) to 3200 UAH ($400 USD) per month.

What do you suppose causes the figures in the average monthly wage to deviate so remarkably in Kiev city versus every other district, including Kiev oblast itself?

This simply illustrates that you cannot use an "average" to say anything specific about a specific real individual, whether it be average salaries, or average lifespan or whatever. The individual in question's actual experience can be totally different than the average. The real story about the individual can be masked by the statistical analysis of the concept of the "average" amount of anything. Let me give you a simple example. Let's say that we are considering the lifespan within a group of people, and this group has only a few people in it. One lived until the age of 100 years old. The other three died at the age of 50. Averaging these numbers, we arrive at the conclusion that the "average" lifespan of this group is (100 + 50 + 50 + 50 = 250, divided by 4 =) 62. 5 years. Does this conclusion that the average lifespan of this group is 62. 5 years, contain any correct information relevant to the lifespan expectation of most of the individuals in this group? Based upon this data, would you think it reasonable to tell a similarly situated small group that based on the data, they can each expect to live 60 years? Of course not! That's not what the concept of an "average" means. But this is not the time or place to go into a discussion of the "law of large numbers", or standard deviation from the mean, and other statistical concepts. But please note that if we left out the exceptional person who lived to age 100, then the average for the others would be much more accurate.

For our purposes here, we can easily notice that any "average" can easily be thrown off the true story by including data that significantly deviates from the norm and by giving that unusual or exceptional data, equal weight in the average. And so it is necessary to know what kind of data was included in producing the figure for the "average" wage in Kiev city, to cause it to be so dramatically different than the rest of all Ukraine's districts, including Kiev oblast. I suspect that the extremely high incomes of not a few oligarchs and high income government people were included in the data, which would have the effect of throwing off the "average", and raising the number. The resulting average number would therefore not bear any real relation to the average salaries of most professions, any more than the average lifespan calculation, when the exceptional lifespan of the person who lived to age 100 was included.

The information that people in most professions in Kiev earn wages of about $300 to $400 per month is anecdotal and based upon conversations and responses from various Kiev residents I have spoken to. It is actual data about what is earned by teachers, doctors, policemen, bank clerks etc, etc, people from many various types of regular jobs. These salaries are entirely consistent with the average wages reported in the resource you cited for every oblast district in Ukraine.

The sole exception is the average wage reported in the resource you cited for Kiev city, which may reflect the inclusion in the average, of high income people in government or big business, and which is therefore not accurate to the actual experience of people with regular professions and jobs.

That being said, I am relatively sure that if one asks most studentkas, even very attractive sexy ones, what budget they are living on, and what are their actual expenses, one will find that the amount is less than $500 / month.

The kind of girls who might hold out for numbers like a luxury income of $800 / month or $1000 / month are not normal studentkas, but rather professional prostitute girls, heavily engaged in the p4p profession, who have learned the value of their pussy to Western men, and know they can turn a "trick" for $300 in one night, or a couple of hours, occasionally if they are lucky. But this is not they type of girl that I would consider girlfriend material. Negotiating with a prostitute girl who is used to getting money for sex on an hourly basis, will be much more difficult, because she will be calculating in her head how much she should earn per hour, for all the hours of fucking you might want to have with her in a month. The whole thing begins and proceeds from the wrong point. And you will lose out.

I don't think you want to sponsor a prostitute girl. Because she sees her pussy like a taxi meter, generating cash per hour. Rather you should look for a student girl who would not be a prostitute, and she is a girl who is simply looking for a rich boyfriend, a benevolent sponsor who would help her with her monthly expenses, so she can achieve her goals, and get an education, and get ahead in life.

I'm an actuary with 20 years experience. Thank you for explaining to me the concept of "average". .

The cost of living is higher in major cities, such as Kiev, and accordingly salaries are higher than in rural areas and towns.

ps. I did not state that I was "concluding from it that people in most jobs are earning $625 per month". That would be the "mode", which typically differs from the average, unless it is a normal distribution.

[Fox7717]

Not 100% if this is the same 'Angela' but totally agree. Was almost perfect and a real star of RP back in the day. Really petite with big, but excellent boob job. killer ass and very pretty? Had the pleasure several times LOL and still have her number somewhere so might give it a try. (Last in contact early 2012) You never know!

I wish I had.

There was one really hot girl there called Angela. Not sure if you had ever met her CB but I'm sure you will know if you did because she was an absolute stunner. She was the only girl that I ever repeated with from my half a dozen or so visits to RP from Oct 2007 to May 2009. She would never permit me to take photos of her so I was pleasantly surprised when I saw pictures of her from Roundabout's posting in the photo section (link attached of original post) and samples below. She is the one on the left with the tanned body and amazing derriere.

I'll be interested to know if anyone knows of her current status and whereabouts.

On another note, does anyone know what caused the demise of River Palace back in 2010? Was it due to politics I. E. A crackdown from the then incoming Yanukovych government or some other financial corruption / tax evasion charges?

Also I had read recently some rumours about a possible resurrection of River Palace. Does anybody know if there is any truth in that?

Howie

[Gergiev]

Well, if the airport proves impossible then I will hop on a train and head to Lviv. From there I can simply cross to Krakow and onto to Canada, if I chose. I think Western Ukraine will be very safe. I even know people in Rivne, if necessary. However, I have friends in Budapest, Vienna, Berlin and Talllinn, as well. I might just kick it in Europe for the summer months. Lets hope it doesn't come to that.

CB, why do you feel the necessity to leave if the Russians arrive?

Or is there some particular personal reason?

[Member #4274]

Hey, what is the situation in Kiev? Some girls say Russian army coming to Kiev. This is true? It is ok to go Kiev nowadays?

You don't ask for much, do you, Kiev Freak? Well, what you're asking has been covered ad nausea by other posters already. No one knows (I am not sure even Putin knows) whether there will be an invasion or not. A Swedish expert on Eastern European affairs thinks there's a 40 percent chance of an invasion. Today it was reported that Moscow has no intention of sending troops into Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said. I am not an expert but, living here in Kyiv, I give it a coin flip. I personally believe there will be one.

As for Kyiv itself, its business as usual. The weather has been terrific and as I am writing this there are a plethora of attractive women swarming the sidewalks below my flat. They are everywhere and on many of their faces is the tension from the possibility of war with Russia. Such is life in Kyiv right now.

[LilJoey]

Wiki quotes $625 average per month (at the old 8-to-1 FX rate). But note that there is a thriving black market economy, and most workers supplement their income (either via various part time efforts, or through corruption / etc). So I'd reckon the average total wage to be closer to $8-900 a month in Kiev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ries_by_salary

If one's tastes run in the 5-7 range, then I would agree $1000 per month will get a lot of interest. But I wouldn't think you'll find an 8+ who will be on beck on call for $1000 month, unless you've already established a common interest in each other (I. E. She's into you)

Dear Fijiman,

Thank you for bringing the Wikipedia source to my attention. However, this resource does not necessarily support what you state in concluding from it that people in most jobs are earning $625 per month.

What you apparently did is simply go to the "average wage" column for Kiev city, and note that average monthly wages in 2013 were in excess of 5000 UAH per month. Then you took the 5000 UAH number and divided it by 8 (the exchange rate was $1 = 8 UAH for a number of years prior to the present crisis period) , and you arrived at the figure of $625 per month.

Did you note, in the chart you referenced, that the figure for the average wage in Kiev city was remarkably different than the average wage reported for every other oblast and district? Most other districts had an average wage reported in figures clustering around figures in the range of between 2700 UAH ($337. 50 USD) to 3200 UAH ($400 USD) per month.

What do you suppose causes the figures in the average monthly wage to deviate so remarkably in Kiev city versus every other district, including Kiev oblast itself?

This simply illustrates that you cannot use an "average" to say anything specific about a specific real individual, whether it be average salaries, or average lifespan or whatever. The individual in question's actual experience can be totally different than the average. The real story about the individual can be masked by the statistical analysis of the concept of the "average" amount of anything. Let me give you a simple example. Let's say that we are considering the lifespan within a group of people, and this group has only a few people in it. One lived until the age of 100 years old. The other three died at the age of 50. Averaging these numbers, we arrive at the conclusion that the "average" lifespan of this group is (100 + 50 + 50 + 50 = 250, divided by 4 =) 62. 5 years. Does this conclusion that the average lifespan of this group is 62. 5 years, contain any correct information relevant to the lifespan expectation of most of the individuals in this group? Based upon this data, would you think it reasonable to tell a similarly situated small group that based on the data, they can each expect to live 60 years? Of course not! That's not what the concept of an "average" means. But this is not the time or place to go into a discussion of the "law of large numbers", or standard deviation from the mean, and other statistical concepts. But please note that if we left out the exceptional person who lived to age 100, then the average for the others would be much more accurate.

For our purposes here, we can easily notice that any "average" can easily be thrown off the true story by including data that significantly deviates from the norm and by giving that unusual or exceptional data, equal weight in the average. And so it is necessary to know what kind of data was included in producing the figure for the "average" wage in Kiev city, to cause it to be so dramatically different than the rest of all Ukraine's districts, including Kiev oblast. I suspect that the extremely high incomes of not a few oligarchs and high income government people were included in the data, which would have the effect of throwing off the "average", and raising the number. The resulting average number would therefore not bear any real relation to the average salaries of most professions, any more than the average lifespan calculation, when the exceptional lifespan of the person who lived to age 100 was included.

The information that people in most professions in Kiev earn wages of about $300 to $400 per month is anecdotal and based upon conversations and responses from various Kiev residents I have spoken to. It is actual data about what is earned by teachers, doctors, policemen, bank clerks etc, etc, people from many various types of regular jobs. These salaries are entirely consistent with the average wages reported in the resource you cited for every oblast district in Ukraine.

The sole exception is the average wage reported in the resource you cited for Kiev city, which may reflect the inclusion in the average, of high income people in government or big business, and which is therefore not accurate to the actual experience of people with regular professions and jobs.

That being said, I am relatively sure that if one asks most studentkas, even very attractive sexy ones, what budget they are living on, and what are their actual expenses, one will find that the amount is less than $500 / month.

The kind of girls who might hold out for numbers like a luxury income of $800 / month or $1000 / month are not normal studentkas, but rather professional prostitute girls, heavily engaged in the p4p profession, who have learned the value of their pussy to Western men, and know they can turn a "trick" for $300 in one night, or a couple of hours, occasionally if they are lucky. But this is not they type of girl that I would consider girlfriend material. Negotiating with a prostitute girl who is used to getting money for sex on an hourly basis, will be much more difficult, because she will be calculating in her head how much she should earn per hour, for all the hours of fucking you might want to have with her in a month. The whole thing begins and proceeds from the wrong point. And you will lose out.

I don't think you want to sponsor a prostitute girl. Because she sees her pussy like a taxi meter, generating cash per hour. Rather you should look for a student girl who would not be a prostitute, and she is a girl who is simply looking for a rich boyfriend, a benevolent sponsor who would help her with her monthly expenses, so she can achieve her goals, and get an education, and get ahead in life.

[Kiev Freak]

Hey, what is the situation in Kiev? Some girls say Russian army coming to Kiev. This is true? It is ok to go Kiev nowadays?

[Fijiman]

Dear Tomux 22,

I am proceeding from the well know and often discussed fact on this forum that the average wage of most people in Kiev in the usual professions are in the range of $300 to $400 per month.

Wiki quotes $625 average per month (at the old 8-to-1 FX rate). But note that there is a thriving black market economy, and most workers supplement their income (either via various part time efforts, or through corruption/etc). So I'd reckon the average total wage to be closer to $8-900 a month in Kiev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ries_by_salary

If one's tastes run in the 5-7 range, then I would agree $1000 per month will get a lot of interest. But I wouldn't think you'll find an 8+ who will be on beck on call for $1000 month, unless you've already established a common interest in each other (I. E. She's into you)

[BrasilSoccer0]

CB,

Olga sounds like my type. Can you post photos or a link?

Nearly four years ago, I was lucky enough to visit River Palace a half-dozen times before it suddenly closed. Actually, I happened to be there the night before it was shut down for good. Anyway, I kept the numbers of the girls I had met there just in case I ever returned to Kyiv, which I did in October. Out of curiosity, I sent an SMS to a few of them when I arrived to see if they would not only respond but remember me. Of the four, no one responded until yesterday, oddly. 5 months after I sent the texts. However, with so much pussy around I completely forgot I sent those messages back in October.

Vika was a very sexy 21 year old university student back in 2010. I actually thought she looked like a brunette version of Cameron Diaz. I met her at R. P. And spent a few wonderful nights with her during the summer of 2010. One weekend when she went away I asked if she had a friend who could 'fill the gap' in her absence. She said she had a roommate who would meet with me. Her name was Olga and she was an absolute knock-out. Unlike a lot of Ukrainian women who are lean, Olga, who was 20 then, had a figure like Marilyn Monroe and a natural blonde. Her tits were immaculate. Olga told me then she never went to River Palace but would sometimes meet with men Vika liked and trusted.

Anyway, Vika is now married with a child but told me Olga would like to meet with me sometime soon. Olga sent me a SMS moments ago asking if I remembered her (how could I not?) and if I would like to meet her for a drink sometime. Definitely going to try to fit her in this weekend.

Anyone else stay in contact with girls they met at River Palace?

[LilJoey]

Don't worry CB, I would not pay her in a lump sum. I agree, it invites laziness. I see doing it weekly or maybe per meeting. But it can be a mistake to tie the $$ too closely to the service, since that makes it unmistakably P4P, instead of being an "allowance" to my girlfriend, which allows the girl to pretend she is not a prostitute.

Equally I think it is important to negotiate it as an overall package, to put the scale of money in perspective. A hot 20 year-old is not going to fuck & blow me for $50 for one night. But she might do it for 20 nights x $50 = $1000.

This is a good point. Am I "taking care" of her (by paying all her expenses)? Or am I negotiating a volume P4P agreement?

In this instance, I think I am negotiating a volume P4P arrangement.

If I was truly supporting her as a girlfriend, then I can't just send her away when I want to fuck other women.

But still, the "what are your expenses" line might be a useful way to start negotiations. Puts the ball in her court and forces her to justify the amount, rather than comparing it to nightly P4P rates.

Personally I am skeptical that I could get a hot girl for as little as $500 per month. But of course there will also be other expenses; meals, shopping, whatever.

I will let everyone know how it turns out.

Dear GT,

Even though you know that you are "negotiating a volume P4P arrangement", my point to you was that it is not to your advantage to divulge that fact to the girl while trying to negotiate the amount of the support. I think you want to be negotiating a needs based support amount for sponsorship. If you start trying to negotiate a bulk p4p arrangement, you will end up paying a lot more. That was my point. The choice of how to negotiate is yours.

But you raise a practical point when you write,"If I was truly supporting her as a girlfriend, then I can't just send her away when I want to fuck other women." Well, obviously you cannot tell her that you would like to fuck other women, so would she please leave. But since she has her own apartment where she lives, and which you are paying the rent for, in whole or in part, she does not have to be invited over to the place where you are staying every single day and moment. You are entitled to attend to your business, and obligations, and you can be busy on this or that day. It is a bit of a juggling act that, no doubt, a man like you can pull off.

[LilJoey]

How can 500$ cover girls expences on cloth and living when even pair of normal womens shose cost 500$.

Class cost even in Ukraine.

Dear Tomux 22,

I am proceeding from the well know and often discussed fact on this forum that the average wage of most people in Kiev in the usual professions are in the range of $300 to $400 per month. Families are typically two wage earner families. So the two incomes helps the family make ends meet each month. Also we are aware of the cost of renting an apartment in Kiev. Downtown the cost is higher, but in outlying districts in Kiev, an apartment can be rented for around $300 a month. So double income families earning $600 to $800 a month, can afford to rent an apartment in an outlying district for $300 to $400 per month, and then they must pay for their food, transportation, clothing, medical costs, etc, out of the rest of their monthly income. I suspect that such people are not going on spending sprees for luxury items very often.

Then there are the people from the wealthy upper class, which includes government types, and big "business", the oligarch class, who have much larger amounts of disposable income, to spend on themselves, and on girls who are lucky enough to be chosen. These are the types of locals who one might see throwing money around at girls in places like Rio strip club, or at p4p girls in D'lux nightclub. They have as much and more cash at their disposal as many Western men.

Is it that you believe that every woman walking around Kiev is wearing $500 shoes? Surely you realize that life is a struggle for most people in Kiev, who earn very little by Western standards. Or is it that you think that they don't sell shoes of more moderate cost in Kiev? I don't understand the question. The studentkas who come from poor homes which do not have sufficient money to send their daughters to university and support them there, are quite numerous. These are girls who are worried more about rent and food, rather than getting $500 shoes. Of course, if a guy buys them a pair, they will be overjoyed. But it is not typically part of the normal sponsorship arrangement, unless the girl is a top model prima dona p4p professional. A normal studentka is looking for help with her actual expenses for the things she absolutely needs, rather than things that she would like to have.

So the bottom line is, my thinking about what amount per month is appropriate for sponsorship support for the basic needs of a studentka girl, is based on what I know the actual income of most people in Kiev is, and their spending capacity. If most double income earning families are subsisting on $600 to $800 per month, does it make sense that a single student girl should have $1000 per month? With that kind of money, she would be considered from the wealthiest segment of Kiev's population. It is too high an amount for a studentka. So I feel that it doesn't make sense, in comparison to average incomes of the rest of society, that less than $500 / month should not be adequate for her actual needs. But my thinking is entirely theoretical. What is necessary is to find out the actual costs for the actual needs of the studentkas. This can only be found out by asking and investigating this matter to find out the actual facts.

You have a question, that there are $500 shoes? Or that there are designer stores all over downtown Kiev, so who is shopping in them? My friend, I have the same question when I pass the designer shops in many shopping malls in the USA and see they are always empty, and I wonder how they stay in business if no one shops there? So it remains a question. But do not let it trouble you. Apparently there are some buyers. But it is not necessary to offer such luxuries as part of normal sponsorship.

So one should ask what the girl's expenses actually are. Then one can know what is involved for sponsoring that girl, with actual knowledge.

[Jojosun]

Nearly four years ago, I was lucky enough to visit River Palace a half-dozen times before it suddenly closed. Actually, I happened to be there the night before it was shut down for good. Anyway, I kept the numbers of the girls I had met there just in case I ever returned to Kyiv, which I did in October. Out of curiosity, I sent an SMS to a few of them when I arrived to see if they would not only respond but remember me. Of the four, no one responded until yesterday, oddly. 5 months after I sent the texts. However, with so much pussy around I completely forgot I sent those messages back in October.

Vika was a very sexy 21 year old university student back in 2010. I actually thought she looked like a brunette version of Cameron Diaz. I met her at R. P. And spent a few wonderful nights with her during the summer of 2010. One weekend when she went away I asked if she had a friend who could 'fill the gap' in her absence. She said she had a roommate who would meet with me. Her name was Olga and she was an absolute knock-out. Unlike a lot of Ukrainian women who are lean, Olga, who was 20 then, had a figure like Marilyn Monroe and a natural blonde. Her tits were immaculate. Olga told me then she never went to River Palace but would sometimes meet with men Vika liked and trusted.

Anyway, Vika is now married with a child but told me Olga would like to meet with me sometime soon. Olga sent me a SMS moments ago asking if I remembered her (how could I not?) and if I would like to meet her for a drink sometime. Definitely going to try to fit her in this weekend.

Anyone else stay in contact with girls they met at River Palace?

CB,

Jogged my memory with your post.

Kept the numbers of some RP girls & few hot girls from the past.

If Vicka's last 3 digits of her number end with 455, then she is one of the first girls I met when I landed in Kiev back in 2009. From your description she does sound as the Vicka I met.

I think I even met a Olga who did look similar to what you've described her above, but not through Vicka or at River Palace. I think I stored her number on another phone, will need to look it up.

I can tell you now, few students used to advertise at the time (Kiev Post) , Acquaintance / Introduction / Relaxation section. They told me they felt safer this way in meeting the right guys.

UkeBoy posted at the time in reply to my post, that I should hang on to that copy of Kiev Post as a Pakistani Business man have just bought The Paper and the first thing he was going to do is stop the personal ads section.

LOL. He only wanted Hallal Meat advertised.

Enjoyed reading your posts and sounds as if you are having much nicer time than the time you spent in Minsk.

Keep it up.

[Gentleman Travel]

Don't worry CB, I would not pay her in a lump sum. I agree, it invites laziness. I see doing it weekly or maybe per meeting. But it can be a mistake to tie the $$ too closely to the service, since that makes it unmistakably P4P, instead of being an "allowance" to my girlfriend, which allows the girl to pretend she is not a prostitute.

Equally I think it is important to negotiate it as an overall package, to put the scale of money in perspective. A hot 20 year-old is not going to fuck & blow me for $50 for one night. But she might do it for 20 nights x $50 = $1000.

So the correct amount to offer for long term sponsorship, is the amount she actually needs to cover all her expenses, for rent, for school, for food, for medical, for clothing, etc, in supplement to whatever income she may have from a regular job, if she has one. I suspect that all of these expenses will likely cost much less than $500 / month in actuality. So it is probably better for you to approach this as a needs-based inquiry, since you are talking about a sponsorship to take care of all her actual needs. Rather than a profit-driven negotiation, where she is seeking to negotiate a p4p price for as high an amount as she can. So before plopping out an extremely high offer of $1000 / month support, simply ask her what her current income is, and what her current rent and other expenses are. Then, when you know what she actually needs, you can propose to take care of her like a girlfriend, in a long term sponsorship relationship.

This is a good point. Am I "taking care" of her (by paying all her expenses)? Or am I negotiating a volume P4P agreement?

In this instance, I think I am negotiating a volume P4P arrangement.

If I was truly supporting her as a girlfriend, then I can't just send her away when I want to fuck other women.

But still, the "what are your expenses" line might be a useful way to start negotiations. Puts the ball in her court and forces her to justify the amount, rather than comparing it to nightly P4P rates.

Personally I am skeptical that I could get a hot girl for as little as $500 per month. But of course there will also be other expenses; meals, shopping, whatever.

I will let everyone know how it turns out.

[Tomux 22]

I think it is possible to find an English speaking student girl for sponsorship and romance for $500 a month for a couple of months. But guaranteed to turn heads? I am not so sure. While not impossible, I think that would be a very good find indeed. I think some members know a different Ukraine than I or perhaps there is some exaggeration or boasting going on. I wonder if GT would report on his actual trip and let us know what he finds once he lands on the ground. $500 a month sponsorship for a decent looking, English speaking girl would be a good deal anywhere in the world and I wish those enjoying such an arrangement all the best.

Yes it is possible to find for 500$ and a good looking one. Sure there is not possible to have normal conversations with such ones. And I am talking about sponsorship girls and not a girlfiend level ones.

"What car you drive honey"

"I guess all people in your country have cars". And so on.

God save me.