Kyiv

[Evilz632]

You are 100% correct SS, Some of the most intelligent PH.D's in Ukraine, I mean the people that, during the USSR, really helped advance medicine, science, technology, weapons development, education and so on, are now working in State Universities and Hospitals making 400 dollars a month, it is ridiculous, and I mean career academics, with multiple degrees. At the same time you have hookers making 2000 US a month or more, or government officials lining their pockets through corruption and bribery.

The sad thing is, to those that travel the world, we see this EVERYWHERE, Latin America, the US, all over Easter Europe, Europe, Asia and so on. Same shit different day.

The " Orange " revolution was a joke. It only traded greater Russian influence and integration for greater EU and US influence and interference. Only time will tell which is better and which is worse. So far these Orange cronies are looking to be worse and much more likely to suspend the constitution and quickly hurl the country into political chaos in order to maintain power. But, we will see.

Regards,

E-Z

Uke, Evils has contributed some very useful information but personally I think he's a wanker. Luckily my opinion doesn't count for anything.

The feeling is mutual, the difference is I don't have to send harassing emails and continuously repeat the same sentiments over and over again.

[Street Sleuth]

the name is victor pinchuk, and he is ex-president kuchma's son-in-law and robber baron big time.

now you understand how he made his grivna. it did not come by working for it and earning it the honest way.

then again, no one here is honest so why should he be any different.

the gallery is known as the pinchuk art centre, his way to a small measure of legitimacy. he is trying to emulate the russian merchants of the 19th century such as tretyakov and others but they had intelligence and good taste, culture and education, something he and his colleagues lack big time and will never have.

that's it! pinchuk!

someone explained that all to me, but in russian, so i missed the finer details (i understood it was somehow related to kuchma, but that was all....).

i don't know i'd agree that everyone is dishonest here - but it is certainly the case that hard work and honesty aren't the typical path to success in these parts, unfortunately.

the 'orange revolution' aside, i think the general populace needs to be more vocal and aggressive with their leaders. kiev parliament gives $10 billion of kiev land away to themselves/their friends for huge bribes, and not a peep out of anyone, except for the kyiv post (in english!)?!

there should be riots in the streets!

[Uke Boy]

The name is Victor PINCHUK, and he is ex-president Kuchma's son-in-law and robber baron big time.

Now you understand how he made his grivna. It did not come by working for it and earning it the honest way.

Then again, no one here is honest so why should he be any different.

The gallery is known as the Pinchuk Art Centre, his way to a small measure of legitimacy. He is trying to emulate the Russian merchants of the 19th Century such as Tretyakov and others but they had intelligence and good taste, culture and education, something he and his colleagues lack big time and will never have.

[Street Sleuth]

CD - you mean the 'Petuchark' (or something like that) gallery?

I've avoided it altogether - there is always such a long line, I figure it must truly suck!

[Street Sleuth]

CD,

I'm beginning to take to your posts, even if they are a bit on the aggresive side.

Worldwide, I'd say true 'class' has little to no connection with wealth and/or societal position. You can be rich, with zero class, or dirt poor, with a very respectable level of class. In the FSU, I'd tend to agree - the majority of people with class generally tend to come from the struggling lower economic echelons.

As for Bush, and the Republicans in general, It seems odd that they lay claim to be economically conservative, yet everytime they gain power, the economy goes into tailspin, and the Federal debt skyrockets.

Wasn't the whole idea of going into Iraq to get cheap oil? What the hell happened with that?

[Cruiser D]

Hecker, there hasn't been a Russian/Ukrainian 'elite' since the last Tsar got offed. Since then it's been a long line of one thug replacing another every 20 or so years usually followed with massive purges of the 'elite' so that the ruling thug could install those loyal to him.

The 'elite' generally dislikes the middle class because before they became rich thugs they were generally poor thugs. Not only that but a large and strong educated middle class is a direct threat to their criminally amassed fortune and power. And Hecker, real style and culture in the FSU comes from the middle class. Case in point, have you been to the art house in Mandarin Plaza founded by whats his name. I've seen more taste and culture at a New Jersey flea market.

Street, up until Spring 2005 you could still get a hot semi pro at RP for $100 for the night. I'd be happy if the price of oil went back down to pre war levels. Look for it to drop when the petro president leaves office next year (good riddance to that pile of crap and his administration). It’s too bad slick Willie got impeached and he didn’t.

Uke, Evils has contributed some very useful information but personally I think he's a wanker. Luckily my opinion doesn't count for anything.

I totally agree with Evilx.You simply do not understand slavic and russian-ukrainian mentality(with all their differences) as Evil does.Russian and ukrainian elite simply hates the middle class,they represent in their view the most low class taste,average mass lack of style,lack of culture etc.They like freedom a lot more than their western counterparts even if it involves violating the rights of common people that in the west are taken for granted.

[DoctorOral]

I called Geisha Massage yesterday and had lola come visit. Fund time, very intimate massage and fun. She stayed longer than she should have. And enjoyed her massage, too.

Has anyone tried caif in kiev? I have seen their ad in a russian magazine, the place looks great and the girls do too?

[Ash1001]

... fewer rich Ukrainians to compete with, more unemployed girls ...

Aah, such stuff as heaven is made of..

[Street Sleuth]

May I also add in the "needs" column that the price of the Stunner over in the corner drops to $75 for LT overnight? Oh yes, and that to include all requested services. Thank you.

Its a complex mathematical equation - but both are substantially equal.

$8/barrel oil = $75 all-night stunning hot girl of your choice....

[Hecker]

In my opinion money to Kiev comes mainly from Russia,so until oil prices drop, the real estate prices,inflation etc will be on the rise.The same is true with ukrainian arrogance.It is fueled by the high oil prices that have a multiplied effect on their russian neighbours.There are agreements between the countries,for example Ukraine sells low quality steel produced in Donbass to Russia and the prices are fixed.I think they have contained many terms in agreement,how much will everything cost,how the price will vary according to oil price and maybe there is a kind of product change,fixed,not normal price determination according to laws of offer and demand.The russians and ukrainians are so tricky that is difficult to understand them.

I also think that high prices in real estate are not only due to speculation but they come naturally from the lack of available places to build modern buildings due to existence of heavy previous communist constracture.They cannot demolish every old building and so they have to pay astronomical prices for a small piece of land to build.So it is like generation of a super modern city within the oldest and most antiproductive environment.

Elite in these countries does not care about spending.They have different sense of economics.Even in tsar times the russian palaces were the most luxurious in the world although most of the population was starving.They do not care about the middle class and they do not give a damn about democracy or human rights as people mean it in the West.

[AColonizer]

I am not sure but I heard the International Monetary Fund said that the world economy will be slowing more than expectations.

I hope nobody will be poorer than now. If Europe and USA and Japan will be poorer, I am afraid what could happen in Ukraine.

[Evilz632]

uke,

did you even read my post or answer the questions found therein ? i agreed with many of your assumptions and disagreed with many others, i didn't say i was write or that you were wrong, i simply stated that i disagreed with your analysis.

i also simply stated that real estate was a good investment for most 3-5 years ago, but for many reasons, it just doesn't make sense today. and i won't go on and on about bullshit, it is plain and simple roi ( return of investment ) if i invest in a property worth 5000 a sq meter, do i have a realistic chance of that property appreciating to 10,000 a sq meter in the next few years ???? hell no, and that is why i am no longer investing in kiev real estate, i have moved on.

but, it is simply false to say that it wasn't a good investment 3-10 years ago. and i will repeat my initial question to you ( forgive me if it sounds arrogant ), other than simple observations what actual real estae experience have you had in kiev during the last 15 years ?? all i know is this, property used to cost 900-1500 a sq meter when i purchased it and it is now worth 5000-10000, i have sold some of it, recoopped my initial investment and made a killing and even if the prices on the remainder drop 50% ( which i don't find to be an accurate figure, i would conservatively put the figure at 20-30%, but i could be wrong, there is no way of actually knowing since we are all just guesstimating and shouldn't get bent out of shape if someone guesses differently, ) it will still be worth many times what i purchased it for.

and i already stated the prices will drop, everyone with half a brain sees this is a bubble, and they are bursting all over the world, look at the us, california and florida used to be some of the most attractive places to invest, and look at them now. condos in florida that used to sell for 1 million, you can't give them away now for 500k. houses in california that used to be valued at 1.2 million are down to 900k today. you are talking about a 25% drop in 18 months, and there is no end in sight, people are talking about how prices could drop another 20-25%. look at london, does no one see that bubble ? how do 100 year mortgages sound ? reasonable ?? well they are becoming standard in europe.

kiev real estate is not a good investment for simple roi reasons today, but if you had the cash, the balls and the connections a few years back, you could have easily quadrupled your money in a couple of years. and many people did, and i think alot of this is sour grapes. from some of the posts here i sense a bit of resentment towards the ukrainians who have become multi millionaires and billionaires overnight, it seems middle class westerners that could travel to many parts of the world and feel and appear rich by local standards are hard pressed to appear middle class in kiev. sorry, just an observation based on many previous posts and certain bellicose comments made by some. but again, maybe i am wrong.

and yes you are right, ukraine, like the us, like latin america, like many countries is filled with contradictions and either you take the good with the bad or you learn to enjoy valium, because it is what it is, it isn't perfect, but what in life really is. i also see turbulent times in ukraine, the first sign of this was the " orange revolution ", it was marketed as a cure all that would stamp out corruption, bring all the poor into the middle class, strengthen the economy, bring ukraine closer to europe so on and so forth, this never happened. corruption continued and even increased, the only thing that changed was the spectrum of corruption broadened, you no longer had the russian backed politicians getting paid, you had us and european backed politicians getting paid as well, does anyone think they will ever give this up ?? why should they ?? look at the us, politicians are owned by multinationals ( they should wear decals ), everyone knows this, someone please explain what exactly " lobbyists " in the us do ? isn't it basically legalized corruption and bribery? how many politicians have gone to prison or lost their jobs in the last few years in the us because of excessive corruption ?? so i don't want to sound cheesy and say maybe the pot is calling the kettle black but come on guys, corruption greases the political wheel everywhere and makes the world go round. so yes you are right uke, ukrainians are good at exploiting corruption, almost as good as the us, and as long as it exists, they will continue to be good at it and profit from it.

very interesting commentary uke, and you are right about many things and i value your insight, but as you said in your post you are not the sole expert ( no matter how much cd insists ) and neither and in no way am i, i just bring a different perspective and as long as we respect our differing views, we can have thought provoking and constructive debate.

and to cd, i will not directly reply to any of your comments, you have quickly become a sad, bitter little figure in my mind and i just basically wish you would stop directing your anger and insecurities towards me.

regards to all the thinking individuals on here,

e-z

[Excess]

On that note, what we really need is for oil to drop back to $8/barrel!

May I also add in the "needs" column that the price of the Stunner over in the corner drops to $75 for LT overnight? Oh yes, and that to include all requested services. Thank you.

[Maverick1]

As far as the corruption. History teaches me that John F Kennedy's Dad made his money off of whiskey. Some say the real money was bootlegging during prohibition. History also teaches me that JFK's Dad showed the stock exchange how he turned that fortune into a Mega fortune by selling short when the stock market went down. JFK's Dad helped change the laws so short sales can only be done on the uptick. (when stock is rising in price)

My point is that 95% of the wealth in America is owned by 5% of the population, and they did not get it by being "Ethical" by the highest standards at the time. Ukraine is no different in that regard.

However, Goverment worries me. At one time the oil companies of the world put mega money into Mexico. Mexico then repaid them by nationalizing Mexican oil. Now Mexico owns the Oil and the National Oil company. The oil companies of the world got screwed.

Not only am I scared of Socialism of one form or another changing course and taking what ever investment I may have made away, the property boom in other areas of the world, such as California, before the fire, are already going down hill. What was worth $1,000,000 18 months ago was only worth $650,000 6 months ago.
Nothing ventured nothing gained, but I see more down side in Keiv Property prices than I see upside in comparison to parts of the EU and US because Ukraine is less stable and higher per meter.

Sooner or later the music stops and some are left without a chair, such as the Savings and Loans in the US during the oil glut. If the financial institutions are the ones without a chair, does the Goverment of Ukraine have the financial strength to prop their financial institutions back up without screwing the depositors? I don't think so, but if I am wrong, I would like to hear how.

[Street Sleuth]

On that note, what we really need is for oil to drop back to $8/barrel!