Kyiv

[Hot Diggidy Dog]

Member 2001,

A Schengen visa is a visa that allows the holder to visit more than one of the Schengen agreement countries -- Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden.

It is at least as hard to get as a regular visa to any one of those countries. It's useful if you plan to travel around. You get the visa through the normal procedures from a consulate of the Schengen agreement country that is your primary destination.

It doesn't help you visit Ukraine, and it doesn't help your Ukranian sweetie visit you unless you live in a Schengen country.

Comparing Swiss visas with other western countries doesn't really make sense. The Swiss can be generous about letting people get visas, they keep tabs on everyone and hunt down people who overstay visas or work illegally. Countries like the UK, Canada, US, etc. that pretty much leave you alone once you're in the country have to be more vigilant at the visa-issuance level.

[Vegamars]

Yeah, I love to entertain, but that has nothing to do with the facts.
An average Ukrainian requires some sort of connection to the embassies even for getting a short-term touristic visa for Schengen countries, British visa and American visa. Otherwise, there would be no chance of getting it for lifetime.
Isn't it weird that most Ukrainians can get a long-term Swiss visa in just a week, not to mention how easy it is for Polish, Hungarian, Slovak and Czech visas.
All my knowledge is derived from simply experiences and research through girls and actual life in Ukraine beyond the visible screen.
In Ukraine, there's a common expression as '' anything is possible as there's always a backdoor '' whether it's for business or sex.
As for visas, I've had my own concrete experiences where we had to wait for a couple of months for nothing on several occasions and then did it in the other way in just half a day.

There's really no kind of comparison between SA and Ukraine, whether it's for the culture, economic situation, quality of girls.
Why the girls wouldn't agree on very unbelievably low prices simply lies on the fact that they belong to one of the most educated and intelligent countries in the world.
There are about 50 universities only in Kiev and most girls attend higher education of a min of 5 years, which makes real effect to the mental quality of the girls in addition to the physical properties. That's why, unlike the common misbelief, it's not so easy to persuade them to obey for little sums, when they're pretty sure that they could get much more.
Though SA is a heaven compared to the States, the quality of agencies mentioned on the board is not so high as the ones in Ukraine. Even the cheapest one in Kiev, namely gia.com.ua, enables some girls with a much higher quality and full service including anal for about $50-60 for 1-2 hrs ( This price is an exception for some who are capable, whereas the regular price is as high as $90-100 for those who accept anything at once!!---
don't forget that agencies are also owned by intelligent women as most businesses in Ukraine)
What is more, the most attractive thing for me is to always keep in mind that there could always be the opportunity to have it for almost free on the long term for top quality.

[Member #2001]

Chuponalgas,

You will see when you get there and I will say that if your links to those sites are any indication then I have to believe that the quality and the price is more reasonable where you monger in SA.

I someday would like to go down there, but I am not into the escort thing. Once in a while its ok, but I enjoy the hunt and the edge that looking for sw's provides me. How much are the sw's where you are at in in SA?

I have not met too many sw's in Kiev though. I heard of a club somewhere outside of the center wehre it was like a brothel, but I dont think they are open anylonger. However if you go outside of Kiev you can find cheaper prices of escorts and sw's. Its been my experance that when calling a escort service that its hit or miss also. Alot of them do not have pictures of the girls that they provide. then only say do you want blond or brunette and tall or short etc. I had one experance with a girl what was a college student and she was really bad sexually. She was also not too attractive for me because she had a little bit of fat on her stomach. You might have better luck though. I would be interested to know what your impressions are of Ukraine.

What is a schengen visa? I have never heard of it. Is it something new from the goverment? I would be interested to know.

[Rabo Verde]

Just for comparison, you guys might want to take a look at

www.ciaplus.com

(Funny name, huh?) This is a very reliable agency in my usual stomping grounds, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, the photos are real, GAROTA means girl, the exchange rate is about 3R=$1, so 100R for 2 hours in your hotel = $33, COMPLETA means anything goes (anal, etc.) There are many cheaper options but this is one of the top level agencies. Most of the CIA girls are college students earning tuition money, mostly model quality.

For a similar look at what goes on in Buenos Aires, my other stomping ground, check out

www.platynum.com.ar

Average price for 2 hours in your hotel room in BA for a top-end model quality chica is about 150 Pesos = $50.

I gather I am not going to find anything comparable in Kiev?
I am coming anyway, just kinda baffled why, with similar economics, no similar availablility or pricing. There is not much religious influence or legal obstaclein the Ukraine, is there? LOL, all comments re underground economy apply equally to Brazil and Argentina, tax evasion is also a national pastime in South America. Anyway, aside from loving the hobby, I am fascinated by the social and economic aspects.

[Uke Boy]

Vegamars,

You are entertaining but I am not sure why you keep wanting to give out more misinformation.

Most so-called middle class Ukrainians who qualify can get a Schengen or UK visa with nothing more than a wait in the queues. The wait can be long and spread over several days but most who apply are successful. You are correct that it amounts to a tourist visa for the stated length of the visit. However it does not take 1-2 months but is a matter of a few weeks for those who are applying for the first time or even days or even that day if someone has had visa before and returned to Ukraine on time, and has never illegally overstayed a visa. It really all depends on the consulate and their rules. They are all different despite the fact that it is one "visa."

According to recent official Ukraine government statistics there are about 6 million Ukrainians working and living abroad mostly illegally) who return several billion dollars of their earnings to relatives back home.

If there is a "visa sale," many more people would be ready to hand in their money for this opportunity! These are relatively low prices for documents that I assume are handed out the "back door." There have been isolated cases of such consulate employee corruption. Do you know something we do not?

If you are referring to private companies that claim they can get such visas for a fee, these are also scams. You will not be issued a visa in 99.9% of any situation unless you qualify.

Of course there is no kind of trouble with Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, China since they were former Soviet bloc countries or allies and are still major trading partners, with some being crucial border neighbors. Visa issuance here is just a formality but for now this is not a Schengen visa.

Rocky V

Ukrainians of all types now need visas along with their international passport to get to all the countries of the European Union, along with most other countries of the world. That also includes Switzerland, China, Korea, etc. There are a few countries where visas are issued on the spot such as Egypt and Turkey.

Each country's foreign ministry and the consular websites tell you who needs a visa. These are the people who set the rules and these are the people you should try first and also believe. They are the ones who say yes or no and their decison is final.

It is very simple. Anyone from the former USSR needs a visa to get into all EU counties. No exceptions. EU citizens going to the former USSR also need visas and that includes Ukraine and Russia. Also no exceptions.

[Rocky V]

Hi Vengamars!

I have a question about visas. Is it possible for a Ukrainian girl to reach Prague with only the international passport? And, what about Switzerland?

Can you tell me a good web site on visa policy for Europeans going to Eastern European Country and/or Eastern Europeans coming to EU?

I would like to propose Jackson a forum where people can discuss visa's problems and strategies all around the world.

Thanks for your help,

Rocky V

[Vegamars]

Let me tell you what is all about the embassies in Ukraine!

If you're an Ukrainian citizen and apply for a Schengen,British or American visa and even if all your documents are in order, the most you can do is to get a touristic visa for a max period of ten days after waiting for 1-2 months and most of the time you'll have to wait for all your life!

This is a deliberate policy cause visas are on sale!
Just get ready to give $1000 for the Schengen visa,$1500 for the British visa and $2500 for the American visa and you'll have any type of visa of a period of at least 6 months ready at your hand in just 1day!!

How can anyone expect any kind of sympathy against these embassies(enemies??) while on the other hand no kind of trouble is involved with embassies like Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Switzerland, Lihuania, Latvia, Estonia, China, Korea,etc?

[Uke Boy]

Member #2001

Apartment prices and income levels give you an idea of the overall economy but nothing beats what locals pay since this would be the true market value. That price is, as I said earlier, $40 to $50 for the first hour. Two hours is $60 to $70. These are one-time visit rates and prices are much lower if you become a regular. Anything higher is a premium you pay for the privilege of being a "rich" foreigner.

Take this same local lady and put her in London (and many are there!) and she will cost you 150 Pounds for an hour, or about $270! Paying $70 to Gia for the first hour seems a bargain by comparison.

Unfortunately, police harassment exists, especially if you do not look like a local. Complaining to the embassy may make you feel better but is useless in terms of results. They do not have the power to change anything since the USA has not yet invaded Ukraine, they only listen to you and say some words of possible sympathy. I am also not so sure you would get any true sympathy since most of the staff of the American Citizens Unit at the embassy is staffed by local Ukrainians! Maybe Ukraine has invaded the USA!

[Member #2001]

Uke Boy,

I think your are absolutly right on most of your points, but that figure is only an estaimate and in the small villages of which there are many of and alot of them are not even on any ukrainian map are empoverished. I know many people in Kiev for many many years and most of them dont own the 5,000 per year that is on those websites. However there are some people that are very very wealthy.

Who buys these apartments and new homes that are outside the city on the way to the airport? The very very rich that have had political contacts before the fall of the Soviet Unioin and wealthy busnessmen, Polititicans, foriegn companies that want to put up thier employees in western style accomodations, and mafiaosa. People like Ukertelecom and Texas Instruments, and some of the executives of the telecominications companies there. People that own the downtown shops are also called "the new russians".

These people are very wealthy since the tax code is only 20 percent for any business its not difficult to see why they are so rich in Kiev. The have a special police in Ukraine that is in charge of making sure that shop owners and bussiness men pay thier full share. It was instutituted to illimanate graft and bribery which is an old costom in the soviet union. That is not to say that there could be a duel form of payment for employees. These are the people that inflate the cost of housing in Kiev. The gap of the haves and have nots is extreame in Ukraine with most of the nations wealthey elete centered inKiev.

While prices for real estate have risen all over In Ukraine and all over the fomer Soviet Union, but it has not risen so much as it has in Kiev. and some other cities in Russia.

Ofcourse you are more then welcome to spend 100 dollars on a escort in Kiev, but for me its is certianly not worth it when you could find pussy, where there is more variety in other parts of the country for alot cheaper.

As far as the American Embassy, I see no reason for them to lie about what they told me. I know this type of behavior exists from my personal experances and from first hand knoledge of other people I have talked to in regaurds to police harresment on the streets.

While I am not in Ukranie at the present time, I am in constant contact with friends that I have there. I base these observations on my personal travels to Ukraine, frends that I have met, and the online version of the Kiev Post (online version), even thought the information from the Kiev Post is some what limited.

[VoodoDick]

Hi Guys,

I will be in Lugansk from the 8th for a week. Would like to meet any fellow brother for a drink or two.

VoodoDick

[Vegamars]

A few interesting remarks:

There's the 5-10% upper top class of Ukraine especially in Kiev,Dniepropetrovsk and Harkov which is surprisingly and unbelievably rich compared to the rich class in Europe.
What's more the real treasure of the country lies abroad,which has flown away to mainly Australia during the last 15 years as it's a country that's even more suitable than Switzerland for regulations of tax exemptions and huge bank accounts.
There's no real good reliable banks in Ukraine at the moment and all the international money transfers are carried out off the record via illegal change offices.

[Uke Boy]

Member #2001

All these statistics are great but they only tell part of the story. In Ukraine, you have the official economy and then you have the gray market economy. For example, many businesses officially pay their employees on the books 100 or 200 Grivna, $20 or $40, approximately. Why? Because this is the amount the employer then pays very high social security and medical benefits on to the government. The employee then gets a cash salary from the employer of $100, $200, $300 or more, with no further deductions. These monies are never reported to the government and never show up in any statistics. While the government tries to force businesses to use cash registers in order for the tax people to be able to follow a paper trail, many transactions are cash with no register receipt. This also makes statistical information about Ukraine notoriously wrong or just plain "educated guesses."

Also, here in Kiev there has been a real estate boom over the last 2-3 years. Prices have soared. One bedrooms in Pechersk, unrenovated, are now going for $50,000 or more. More importantly, there is no mortgage system here and people are paying these amounts and more with full cash payment! So how does someone who makes 5K per year be able to afford a 50K flat and pay all cash?

If you are here to see what is happening as I am that is one thing. If you are going to use statistics, then they will lie to you each and every time, or at the very least, anyone can use the statistics to make their own case, even if it is directly opposite of yours.

While Ukraine's economy may be one that is statistically that of a third world nation, the people still see themselves as former superpower citizens as well as cultured and sophisticated Europeans, and that includes the working ladies. Now we are looking at how people value themselves.

For all these reasons and more you cannot compare the prices of Brazilian ladies with that of Ukraine.

This place is far, far different from what it was in 1990.

Finally, the most useless place for help or information for any American, in Kiev or any other country of the world, is the embassy. They are, in fact, the least credible of all sources.

[Kanitha]

Could anybody tell me where I can find girls other than in River Palace or Bar 111? Does anybody know some websites of recommended agecies?

Please help!

[Member #2001]

According to lonelyplanet.com the GDP for Brazil is 4060$ and the GDP for Ukraine is 4500$. In the cia factbook (online version) the GDP for Brazil is 7600$ and the GDP for Ukraine is 5300$. Now given that people outside of Kiev earn alot less then the people that live in Kiev, I would say that the average person in kiev earns about 500$ per month and the average wage outside of Kiev is about 200$ per month. In my previous experance that sounds about right. While I have never been to Brazil I can only estamate that the two economies are the about same and so the price of the girls should also be about the same. However I know I can get girls alot cheaper then the 100$ or 50$ in Kiev. I am not sure about what the prices are outside of the capital of Brazil. Sounds like that girl got a bargin. You can get a bargin on rent there, but it takes time and you have to be willing to rent for 6 months or more. The longer you rent, the cheaper the rent becomes.

Having said that I think that the prices of apartments in the center of town are about 350$- 400$ minimum for a one room apartment and as much as you want to spent for something more luxurious. Just do a search for apartments rentals in Kiev and you can see how much you can spend in Kiev.

As for me those prices are really bazzar from what I remember of Kiev. I remember people selling thier 2 room flats for 10 or 15 thousand dollars in the Podol and Perchersk areas. Its like renting an apartmtent in any downtown city in America.

I once heard of an American that sold his Levi's blue jeans on the street for 100$ back in the day. I think my freind told me that it was about 1990. That was when the price of Levi's were about 15 or 20 dollars. He apparently had to go back to where he was staying in his underware and get another pair of pants to wear.

Finnaly, to the gentlelman that wanted to know who told me the American embassator was harrased in Kiev? Well it was the embassy staff when I went there to file a complaint when the cops harassed, me and I was getting tired of it. I think they would be credible source.

[Goldfinger]

I will be in Kiev for 7 days from wednesday if I am deemed suitable for a visa. PM me if you are around. This could be a tricky trip for a non-Russian speaker so may have some questions.