Kyiv

[Kozerog]

A report of the trip will be posted shortly.

Looking forwards to reading it. Regardless of any disagreements, I always enjoy reading your posts.

-use public transport when feasible. Negotiate with the taxis. A 100 UAH fare is a third of the way to the airport, not 1 Km.

Ukraine is a developed country. Taxis are not interested in bargaining for standard services. (Special services, like introductions to brothels, is another story.) Just use Uklon (what I use), Uber or one of the other taxi apps. Besides, if it's really 1km, why not just walk? About 12 minutes on foot.

By the way, she can only pick up her cash after the deed.

I'm also a big believer in this. Spread the money neatly on the table so she can count by eye. Point to the table and say: "You can put your purse and clothes there, but please don't pick up the money until afterwards. It's very low class to expect payment in advance, like at McDonald's." If you want, replace the word "money" by the word "gift". By having the money/gift next to her purse, she is reassured that you actually have money and plan to pay. On the other hand, since she hasn't yet picked the money up, you could take it back if she refuses to carry though with the agreed upon sex acts. It is my belief that money lying openly on the table acts as a powerful aphrodisiac to young women, similar to how tip money lying on the table at a restaurant acts as a powerful incentive to get good service there. Ignore what women say about not wanting to be treated like prostitutes: this is just a psychological defense mechanism. Truth is they consider it an honor to be paid for sex versus giving it away for free.

Note that I had to fight with agency mamasan to get them to agree to leaving money on the table until afterwards. Probably not as important with agencies and pros as with semi-pros, especially beginner semi-pros, who are more likely to get nervous about carrying through with the sex.

The average salary in Kiev is around 10,000 UAH per month, which yields 2500 UAH per week, or 500 UAH per weekday. ! Cashier girls likely make a lot less. In any case, even at 10 K, two or 3 days' wages would be would be 1000 to 1500 UAH. Sure enough, ads start at about 300 UAH, and local men would never pay more than 500 UAH. Girls would never agree to that much money from a foreigner, just because they know we can pay more. However, double the normal rate seems more than reasonable. My acceptable price range was from 1500 to 2000, with 2500 UAH as an absolute maximum.

And cashier salaries in the mid size town which is my official domicile in the USA is under $8/hour, less taxes, plus they often get less than 40 hours work, so maybe $250/week or $50/day. But college girls would be insulted by offers of $50 from a man 30+ years older. More like $150 minimum. Maybe a younger man could get away with $50, especially if a long-term continuing relationship. Sex work everywhere is highly paid, assuming you want quality young women and you are seeing the girl occasionally at most and possibly just once. 3-4 days cashier wages, or about 1500-2000 uah in Kyiv is about right.

That is also what locals pay. Your 300 uah rate is absurd, unless you are talking about brothels with very low quality women. Equivalent of a $30 truck stop prostitute in the USA. Please show me reports from https://www.kiev-x.in where the woman is high quality, young, outcall and under 1000 uah.

As I pointed out previously, locals may not be preferred clients. First, locals might know the girl, which would be very embarrassing for young semi-pros. Second, with someone like Stevie69, there is the possibility of marriage to a relatively rich, attractive and charming westerner, whereas local clients probably either already married or else neither rich nor attractive nor charming. Third, even if foreigners are from Muslim countries or India, so that girls rule out marriage because of low status of women in those countries, this didn't mean they will also reject clients from those countries. Fact that man travelled all the way to Ukraine and is paying for sex is strong compliment to Ukrainian women, and so natural to want to repay the compliment and bring honor to Ukrainian women by leaving a good impression on the man. Assuming he acts like a gentleman, of course, versus some village goatherd who saved for 6 months to afford his trip to Kyiv and doesn't bathe and then acts like he never before had sex with a human female. In other words, it would not surprise me if foreigners, especially those like Stevie69, get better service and rates than locals.

[Member #4623]

Greetings,

This is essentially a re-post of a previous post, updated after my most recent trip. A report of the trip will be posted shortly.

Some rookie mistakes.

-First timers might have some trouble adjusting to this new reality, where most of the women look and dress like fashion models, are actually flattered by male attention, and can be had for a reasonable price. When you arrive in Kiev, do not be constrained by behavioral norms or gynocentric societies. Feel free to approach women, to propose to them, to chat with them, to look, to make eye contact, to smile, to act like a man.

-Do not go to see the girl's place. By the time you get there and find the place, you have wasted an hour or two, the taxi driver has ripped you off, and the girl might be disappointing, or you might decide that you have already spent so much time and money that you will agree to anything (Concorde fallacy).

-Do not agree to have sex with a girl who is not even close to the one on the photo..

Thank you.

[Stevie69]

Greetings,

This is essentially a re-post of a previous post, updated after my most recent trip. A report of the trip will be posted shortly.

Some rookie mistakes.

-First timers might have some trouble adjusting to this new reality, where most of the women look and dress like fashion models, are actually flattered by male attention, and can be had for a reasonable price. When you arrive in Kiev, do not be constrained by behavioral norms or gynocentric societies. Feel free to approach women, to propose to them, to chat with them, to look, to make eye contact, to smile, to act like a man.

-Do not go to see the girl's place. By the time you get there and find the place, you have wasted an hour or two, the taxi driver has ripped you off, and the girl might be disappointing, or you might decide that you have already spent so much time and money that you will agree to anything (Concorde fallacy).

-Do not agree to have sex with a girl who is not even close to the one on the photo.

-Do not agree to too much without talking specifics. One of the fun aspects of dealing with professionals is that you can be open about sex, what she likes, what she will do, and for how much. If you want to gamble, you can try a non-pro.

-do not drink too much, and if you do, do take performance enhancing pharmaceuticals, just in case.

-use an apartment, not a hotel. Cheaper, no hassles, etc. If you are concerned about security but a portable little safe with a cable.

-use public transport when feasible. Negotiate with the taxis. A 100 UAH fare is a third of the way to the airport, not 1 Km.

-avoid the scammers, girls who want to meet you at a restaurant of their choice. You choose a restaurant, one that is public, popular, with a menu, and with a good view of the street.

-Before you let girls in, ANY girls, sanitize your apartment. Everything should be put away. This includes keys, phones, wallets, watches, cash, sunglasses, hell, even expensive ties. I use a little safe for all my valuables. When a girl enters, the only accessible items are condoms, latex gloves, lube, her cash in UAH, and a large camera. By the way, she can only pick up her cash after the deed.

Preparation.

As usual, I had done a lot of preliminary work both scouting some pro sites (top models, GIA and others), and actually making contacts on dating, semi-pro sites (lucky lovers, Elena's models, mamba, Tinder, Badoo). The pro sites carry some of the same pros, and the non-pros are also found in several sites. I was interested in the whole range, from potential marriage material to just really good sex (actually, you cannot have the former without the latter). I was open to meeting full-time pros, semi-pros and hard core amateurs, if there is such a beast.

My general philosophy.

Briefly, in my opinion, an apartment is better to a hotel, and the much talked about Rio is too expensive. If I were willing to pay 300 USD, I would just stay at home. On top of the usual venues (bars, clubs, cafes, and the street), I shall add conventions (there are many, some to your interest, and maybe you can get your employer to pay for your trip), English teaching forums, and when the weather is favourable, beaches and parks.

Money and prices.

Exchange only a small amount at the airport; the rate is not very good. You do not have to know the rate when you land; just check the spread. 10 cents is very good, anything over 20 cents is a rip-off.

If I wanted to pay 200-300 Euros for one hour of sex, I could easily just stay home.

The average salary in Kiev is around 10,000 UAH per month, which yields 2500 UAH per week, or 500 UAH per weekday. ! Cashier girls likely make a lot less. In any case, even at 10 K, two or 3 days' wages would be would be 1000 to 1500 UAH. Sure enough, ads start at about 300 UAH, and local men would never pay more than 500 UAH. Girls would never agree to that much money from a foreigner, just because they know we can pay more. However, double the normal rate seems more than reasonable. My acceptable price range was from 1500 to 2000, with 2500 UAH as an absolute maximum.

I think this is more than fair.

Pros and semi-pros.

I get the impression that nearly all normal girls are potentially "semi-pros" in Kiev. Actually, I like to think of marriage minded girls are "long-term pros". "Semi-pros" to me are girls who have regular jobs and supplement their income with a little sex. I like to think that they do not have too many customers and I am the only persons with whom they have had sex that day, and maybe that week. "Real pros" are the ones who do not have any other job. They can be low class apartment girls or high priced travel girls who like to go to Dubai.

The game with Pros and semi-pros.

After a few minutes of conversation, and if I saw her responding appropriately, smiling and giggling, I suggest going back to my place for some private fun, pause for a second to gauge her reaction, and then add that I could "give her a gift", or "show some appreciation for her", or "help with her expenses", and "make it worth her time with you". They all understand what I mean. If they are really offended and walk away, I just talk to the next girl I see. If they pretend to be offended and keep talking to you, then they are not really offended. I apologize and withdraw the money, but I say that you only have a couple of weeks to get to know her. Eventually, she will decide to take the money. The third option is when they give you a counter offer. Then you know you are talking to a real pro, and you can be open about prices and details.

Negotiate in local currency, never dollars or Euros.

THE ART OF THREESOMES.

Do not agree to a threesome unless you already have had a mind-blowing experience at least one of the girls. Ask her if she has a friend, and tell her to bring her for you to meet or to send you some photos. If you like her, go for it.

Actually, if there is not girl-on-girl action, a good threesome is hard work. Okay, the double BJ is great, but after that most of us have a tendency to focus on one girl at a time.

Also, I practise safe sex, but not for oral, but it can become troublesome during a threesome. Every time you switch you have to switch condoms. Not only does it slow everything down, but you might end up running out of condoms half way through. If you switch to a mouth, you can keep it on, but then your BJ is covered, not quite the same.

WEB SITES.

As I said, Gia (now KEC) is my upper end, and I avoided it this time. However, the photos are real, and the service is good.

Top models is tricky. I imagine the ones asking for 2000 UAH and more use real photos; the rest do not. Most of the photos are fake, even if it says they are real. They do not speak English, even if it says they do. They often disconnect the moment they realize you do not speak Russian. However, after a lot of trial and error, and stern warnings that girls with fake photos will be sent home, it is possible to get some good girls. Just use some common sense. If the photos look like they are from professional models, then they probably are. If there are several girls with the same number, then it probably an agency and they will just send you any girl, not the one you wanted. I tried for girls in the middle (1200-2000 UAH), with a variety of photos in different settings, and not from agencies. I figured the ones with their faces blurred are more likely to be real. I asked to send me photos or warned them that final approval would happen when we meet. I ended up meeting a few cuties that in their photos, looked like real girls.

http://prostitutki-kieva.biz/ and http://sexkiev.net/ and others. Same idea.

Tinder is full of pros too. One weird angle was girls who claim to want to meet someone to "Learn and practice ENGLISH". I suspect it is just a euphemism, but I did not bite.

Badoo was a an okay source of a few numbers, but nothing materialized this time.

Mamba turned out to be my main source of semi-pro, other than previous contacts (many of whom also came form mamba). Lots of pros, semi-pros and girls thinking that they can meet someone special from a far-away land. It is easy to pick the pros. They are the ones that are looking for sex, with anyone 60 or younger. \.

Miscellaneous.

For crying out loud, do not pay so much.

I told all the girls that I would be there for 2 weeks, even up to my last day, and that I would return in 2-3 months. I figured that would encourage them to do their job well, thinking that I might become a repeat customer. I also told everyone I was the on business, which was partially true, so I had more details ready, if they asked. You do not want girls to think you are just a sex tourist.

Maximize your exposure, to pros and semi-pros, and long-term pros. Conferences, shops, restaurants, hair salons, English forums, and the street are perfectly good places to make some contacts. I saw some foreigners acting like desperate sex tourists, hitting one every girl out on the street. I assume that is not the best technique. Just be cool, smile, and if a girl makes eye contact or sits or stands close to you, say whatever comes to mind. Feel free to approach them, as if you were a man in North America back in the 50's. A simple "Hello," makes a perfectly good opening line.

Treat them well and appreciate their beauty.

Money is not a substitute for charm.

[PhotoSlider]

I guess I could, but that would be a bit weird. Kinda comes off as a bit "thirsty", I don't think she'd respect me after that. I'm probably better off giving someone else a shot at the title LOL.

Someone else is surely a much better idea, than expecting respect from an apartment girl.

There are hundreds of girls available in Kiev, and that's the beauty of it. At the very hint of doubts with any of them, switching to other candidates is the best way to heal the restless soul.

Maybe I am mistaken, but I get a feeling you may over-complicate the matters. The approach in Kiev is as simple as "lather, rinse, repeat". Send the message via Viber, have a few girls delivered to your door, choose (or send them back), then pay, and for an hour she is yours. If you like her, try to get her personal number. Mamba, Tinder and other resources aren't that much different.

Agencies dispatchers and apartment mamasans like it straight-forward. Otherwise they loose the interest quickly and ignore.

Rules become more elaborate when your females progress into the role of regular, or GF, or move in with you for a period of time. Dealing with apartments is very transactional.

[ShawMan74]

Why not call the place and make an appointment for outcall and see her in your flat? They don't do outcalls?

I guess I could, but that would be a bit weird. Kinda comes off as a bit "thirsty", I don't think she'd respect me after that. I'm probably better off giving someone else a shot at the title LOL.

[DramaFree11]

I love those comments. Not! I have been to Kiev in the last year about 6 months in total. I live here almost. I have some girls I hang out with and made some friends. I walk in the Night drunken from BoraBora Beach towards Hydropark to get a taxi, I visit concerts at Art Platforma (left bank) which is a shity district, I drive out to Dymer to hang out at the Dinpr, I walk in the Night in dark alleys, etc etc. I never had any problems in the past 8 years. Of course you will always find trouble in a big city but I feel here much more safer then in some US cities or Berlin for example. I was in Kaszakhstan and Kyrgistan 2 months ago and the internet is full of warnings. In my one month trip I had no bad experience and asked so many people why it is said it is not safe. Just rumors and some tourists who wants to be important, saying they made a trip to a dangerous country.

I have many of the same stories, never had any issues. We would walk home drunk 2-3 nights a week, no issues. I would never try that in the states. I do miss that part of Kiev.

[DramaFree11]

Do they charge the same rates as your Warsaw contacts at US $ 200/250 an hour?

Ukraine girls are a lot of things, but they are not prejudice. Russian do discriminate.

[Jojosun]

Just returned from 3 days in Kiev, the girls were plenty and as expected, aged 20 to 30, but I have to admit they prefer no turks, no indians, no israelis, pm me for contacts.

Do they charge the same rates as your Warsaw contacts at US $ 200/250 an hour?

[Kirch]

I love those comments. Not! I have been to Kiev in the last year about 6 months in total. I live here almost. I have some girls I hang out with and made some friends. I walk in the Night drunken from BoraBora Beach towards Hydropark to get a taxi, I visit concerts at Art Platforma (left bank) which is a shity district, I drive out to Dymer to hang out at the Dinpr, I walk in the Night in dark alleys, etc etc. I never had any problems in the past 8 years. Of course you will always find trouble in a big city but I feel here much more safer then in some US cities or Berlin for example. I was in Kaszakhstan and Kyrgistan 2 months ago and the internet is full of warnings. In my one month trip I had no bad experience and asked so many people why it is said it is not safe. Just rumors and some tourists who wants to be important, saying they made a trip to a dangerous country.

Somehow I missed those. Lucky me for sure.

For the sake of visiting Forum members safety, could you please provide few examples?

What parts of the city, what time of the day, what do raiders target? Some of us inevitably better understand certain matters than others and vice versa.

It seems for organized prostitution it is more beneficial to keep milking the customers without any unnecessary petty crime. Streets of Kiev, that's a completely different matter.

Would be great if you could provide helpful specifics. Thank you in advance.

[Stefan 7]

Day 5

Thanks for your reports, after reading them I would rather stay in my flat, write the agent what I want and order girls for outcall, I know photos are fake and probably won't keep the girl.

[Stefan 7]

Kyiv is not safe. Safety? That's an illusion. People are friendly because it's about making money.

You do not understand the language. This is the mistake. Otherwise, you would understand what is often spoken about.

Are there raids on tourists? Yes. Every day.

Not just pickpocketing. Raids.

I travel to Kiev every summer, I heard about 10 yrs ago, some guys pretended to be police offices raided a tourist, maybe that's why some of you are scared of ordering girls from relaxkiev to your flat, don't know if there have been other raids, I've never had any problems.

[Stefan 7]

Another interesting thing I noticed. I tried to pass alissya my contact info, to which she had pen and paper in the kitchen (you know, where mamasan is). I asked if that would be ok, she said that it would be totally fine (well I wrote her my name and number, and I haven't heard from her since. (sarcasm) gee I wonder why. They probably threw it away the moment I wasn't looking. But I don't know if I'd be welcome back, or if it would just be weird. (especially if alissya happens to be working there when I show up.) something to think about.

Why not call the place and make an appointment for outcall and see her in your flat? They don't do outcalls?

[Michi T]

"but where's the beef?" (70's babies will know that reference.) that's how m....
If you want to know what all that ended up looking like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUbmmI5utBc that was pretty much my pecker in her hole, except that I was on top, and all the cute squeaking noises were coming from her.

Oh man, dude, are you still there? Sorry to learn about your bad experience. Maybe I will have the opportunity to stop again in Kiev in August on the way to Dnipro.

[PhotoSlider]

...A much better way to go about things for the next two months, and I don't have to pay him for the evening. He had a point. (he made a suggestion against his own commission, that's a good cabby right there.).

This cabby wants your business, because you are honest and treat him nicely. Kiev taxi market is quite competitive. So he made the smart move to keep you.

Another interesting thing I noticed. I tried to pass alissya my contact info, to which she had pen and paper in the kitchen (you know, where mamasan is). I asked if that would be ok, she said that it would be totally fine (well I wrote her my name and number, and I haven't heard from her since. (sarcasm) gee I wonder why. They probably threw it away the moment I wasn't looking. But I don't know if I'd be welcome back, or if it would just be weird. (especially if alissya happens to be working there when I show up.) something to think about.

It is easier for a girl to take your number and forget about it, rather than give you hers, or even explain she doesn't want to. Do not overthink it. Agency most likely will not contact you, as they are busy. Indies sometimes do send a short message "How are you? When the well gets dry.

To keep it straightforward, I give my smartphone device into the girl's hands and ask to dial her number, promising I will not bother her, and explaining that I would rather pay her directly instead of splitting the earnings with the agency. This way I get her number, and she has mine. I do it only with the girls I like. 50-70% of the girls refuse for the fear of their phone checked and being penalized. They suggest to call the agency directly, requesting her by name.

If she dials, I ask or check what messengers she actively uses, and after she leaves, immediately send her a message setting up our next meet. Then she either doesn't answer at all (25-30% says she is busy (another 30-40% or we arrange for continuation. Keeping the first meeting is important for converting the girl into a regular. If the first meeting falls through because I am double booked, she will consider me unreliable and will stop answering, or even block and erase the contact without me knowing anything.

Think of it as a business transaction, and setting up a regular supplier, provider, where you are the paying customer. Her liking you only means that she is comfortable making money with you, as there are other customers, sometimes abusive and dishonest. One of my Ukrainian GFs explained it plain and simple: "I am not scared with you."

[PhotoSlider]

Are there raids on tourists? Yes. Every day.

Not just pickpocketing. Raids.

Somehow I missed those. Lucky me for sure.

For the sake of visiting Forum members safety, could you please provide few examples?

What parts of the city, what time of the day, what do raiders target? Some of us inevitably better understand certain matters than others and vice versa.

It seems for organized prostitution it is more beneficial to keep milking the customers without any unnecessary petty crime. Streets of Kiev, that's a completely different matter.

Would be great if you could provide helpful specifics. Thank you in advance.