Kyiv

[Kozerog]

Cannot say anything about Moscow, as luckily (tongue in cheek) I wasn't there since 2002.
.

And I've never been there myself. Also, I'm not really questioning DramaFree11's views. It's just seeing how he flips from black to white when going from Kyiv to Moscow is mind-boggling. I should have read the Moscow thread long ago, and highly recommend that thread to others here, just to get some perspective, even if you never plan to visit Moscow.

My own views about the mongering scene in Kyiv are much closer to those of PhotoSlider, with the caveat that he has a lot more energy and experience than me and probably most average guys. That is, I believe there exist very high quality girls In Kyiv, at half the price of Moscow, but they don't come handed to you on a silver platter. You have to work for them. If you don't put in the work, you get the bad results DramaFree11 complains about in this thread and CzarNicholas complains about in the Moscow thread.

[PhotoSlider]

...sounds like PhotoSlider here in this Kiev forum: mostly successes with a few failures. Meanwhile, another guy named CzarNicholas trashes Moscow the same way DramaFree11 trashes Kiev: websites all hidden agencies, fake photos, girl that finally arrives is fat pig who he only accepted because tired of fighting for something better, constant upselling and other ways to extract more money from clients, etc.

Cannot say anything about Moscow, as luckily (tongue in cheek) I wasn't there since 2002.

As far as upselling in Kiev, I see it no more than 1 in 10, and shut it down right away. In September of 2016 there was one highly intelligent and extremely hot student girl named Brittany that sold her DFK for 20 USD fifteen minutes into intercourse, and I wanted her so badly, that didn't even think twice. At that time in my life I did not push for extras and has been content with with whatever was on the menu, but she was so sweet and desirable, and I felt that she wanted to kiss, but deep down in her mind there was a price sticker for that!

Afterwards she was laying there under the blanket, covering half of her face, not believing her own eyes of what just happened with this guy 33 years older than her. And few minutes later she tried to explain her doubts about herself being a worthy person, to which I objected wholeheartedly and in the most convincing manner, as indeed she made me very happy.

Was this upsell a failure? Cheating?

Anyway. What is the trustworthy criteria for success versus failure? Certainly not 1-10 rating. Punctuality, on-time delivery seems important. I value my time, as there are things aside form mongering that make my schedule rather tight in Kiev. More than once I told my consolidation dispatchers to cancel the girls in-route, as I waited too long, and driver or somebody else lied about the estimated time of arrival. Couple times it pissed me off and affected decision making when the girls were finally at my curbside for casting, to the point of being too irritated to accept anybody.

At the same time one particular lady made a big deal about my demands and encroachment on her personal time. She took her sweet time to order taxi, and arrive, while texting all the usual Kiev lady lies about traffic and such. And yet I was happy with her. She is a great kisser, and even better in other matters. Once, after a few weeks of typical excuses, cancellations and no-shows, I had her beautiful derriere in my hands, and as we were already no less than 30 minutes into a great doggie style, I asked her in the most serious voice:

- Why you did not arrive earlier? What took you so long!

And breathing heavily, she sincerely exclaimed:

- I'll be better! I'll fix myself! -- Ya ispravljus'.

Was it a failure? I had her repeatedly for 3+ hours sessions and paid 2000 UAH for each. To me she is top 5 for the last 14 months, and not because of price, but as a perfomer. Met her by pure luck, when around 1 am one night she arrived as a roommate of my friend's girl. Yesterday received warmest NYE wishes from her and request to meet ASAP.

It is all subjective. I am sure ladies in Moscow are what you make of them. Mistreat and suspect, tell them they are cheaters, and service quality will deteriorate. AFAIK, Ukrainian ladies have stronger character, are less submissive, more independently minded, and that's the way I like them. Free spirited, feminine and after good foreplay no lubricant required.

[DramaFree11]

Feeling bored, so poked around and read DramaFree11's posts in the Moscow forum, first time I've done that. Sure enough, DramaFree11 sounds like PhotoSlider here in this Kiev forum: mostly successes with a few failures. Meanwhile, another guy named CzarNicholas trashes Moscow the same way DramaFree11 trashes Kiev: websites all hidden agencies, fake photos, girl that finally arrives is fat pig who he only accepted because tired of fighting for something better, constant upselling and other ways to extract more money from clients, etc.

Sorry, zero comparison. Moscow is great and Kiev is below average, and full of scams. There is an actual night life in Moscow, yes there are fake profile and pictures, but nothing like Kiev. Czar would fail anywhere. As far as the other gentlemen you are talking about I disagree with most of his discrimination of Kiev.

The bottom line if I was hanging out in Kiev, I would be meeting 5-6's, bored. Moscow 7-8's are attainable, even higher. Hot girls are everywhere. Even when Kiev was good 10 years ago I could have never had the high quality girls I am meeting in Moscow.

If you have s budget above $300, a day and any game, the sky is the limit. Sorry this the truth. Glad to help, if you have questions.

[AntonySun1996]

And I don't mind when guys richer than me pay more than I can afford. Word gets out that there is big money to be earned from sex tourists and that makes more girls willing to be semi-pros, which is good for all of us. Yes, the rumors of $1500 for 3 days might cause some girls to raise their rates, but they will soon find the supply of big spenders is not that large and so lower their rates back to a level I can afford.

What I mind is when market participants encourage bad behavior, which exactly what paying in advance does. Losses due to bad behavior cause the marketplace to shrink as everyone adjusts prices to compensate (girls raise their prices, mongers lower theirs) so that the market no longer clears. Fine example is DramaFree11. Wants to monger, can afford going rates, assigns very high cost to feeling of being cheated, and since cheating is so common in Kyiv, finally abandoned the market entirely.

There is absolutely no reason to pay for three days in advance, and also no reason to delay payment until the third day. I wouldn't accept such delay if I was the girl. Pay one day at a time, money on the table until end of day. You were lucky this time, but you really need to put your foot down in the future..

Thanks for the advice. I pay advance only to the girls I trust. We have already met a lot of times and we know each other quite well.

[Kozerog]

Feeling bored, so poked around and read DramaFree11's posts in the Moscow forum, first time I've done that. Sure enough, DramaFree11 sounds like PhotoSlider here in this Kiev forum: mostly successes with a few failures. Meanwhile, another guy named CzarNicholas trashes Moscow the same way DramaFree11 trashes Kiev: websites all hidden agencies, fake photos, girl that finally arrives is fat pig who he only accepted because tired of fighting for something better, constant upselling and other ways to extract more money from clients, etc.

[DramaFree11]

Just finishing my second trip to Moscow in the last 2 months. I probably met 40-60 new people throughout my trips. Probably 8-10, where from Ukraine. Even though I am trying to avoid Ukraine like the plague it follows me everywhere.

All said that Ukraine was finished and there is no future there. One of the girls told me that 70% of her friends had left the country, some come back for Visa reasons, but are trying to leave the country full time now. She said that the people that our left can not leave because of age, have figured out how to make a decent living in Ukraine or have failed in there travels. Take this for what is worth, but you need to think about this when you are planning a trip to Kiev, it is only going to get worse.

When I lived in Kiev all people talked about was leaving the country, that was 4 years ago, I can only imagine what it is like now.

[DramaFree11]

Could you explain? Is SA = seekingarrangement (changed to seeking.com in the USA)? Do you mean western European guys set up accounts pretending to be women or else have access to real women's accounts, so that these men do all the messaging on behalf of the girls, but actually arrange for real sex rather than just asking for wire transfers of money for travel expenses, etc?

IMO, the big money is imitating DreamConnections. $5000 per male client for 10 days and almost all of that goes to the promoter, with just a few crumbs thrown to the girls. Such is western men's aversion to paying girls directly for sex that they don't think twice about paying vastly more to a man for the mere hope of sex, just as long as the girl gets nothing.

I have had great success with Seeking Arrangements in Mexico and I have heard of other being Successful in Colombia and other destinations. Limited success in Moscow, but would not recommend, it here or in Kiev. I real do not think SA will work in Kiev, I do not feel $90 a month is a good investment. Just call an Escort. SA girls are going to want far more then regular price in Kiev.

[Riina]

Could you explain? Is SA = seekingarrangement (changed to seeking.com in the USA)? Do you mean western European guys set up accounts pretending to be women or else have access to real women's accounts, so that these men do all the messaging on behalf of the girls, but actually arrange for real sex rather than just asking for wire transfers of money for travel expenses, etc?

IMO, the big money is imitating DreamConnections. $5000 per male client for 10 days and almost all of that goes to the promoter, with just a few crumbs thrown to the girls. Such is western men's aversion to paying girls directly for sex that they don't think twice about paying vastly more to a man for the mere hope of sex, just as long as the girl gets nothing.

Yes, exactly. I never heard of DreamConnections, but it makes sense that it exists.

[Kozerog]

I've been using SA in Kiev. I've concluded it's corrupted by Western dudes trying to pimp. Makes me realize where all the conflict comes from. If I was living in Kiev without resources, I'd probably try to pimp some girls too to get myself by. Then it would be Riina in Kiev paradise.

Could you explain? Is SA = seekingarrangement (changed to seeking.com in the USA)? Do you mean western European guys set up accounts pretending to be women or else have access to real women's accounts, so that these men do all the messaging on behalf of the girls, but actually arrange for real sex rather than just asking for wire transfers of money for travel expenses, etc?

IMO, the big money is imitating DreamConnections. $5000 per male client for 10 days and almost all of that goes to the promoter, with just a few crumbs thrown to the girls. Such is western men's aversion to paying girls directly for sex that they don't think twice about paying vastly more to a man for the mere hope of sex, just as long as the girl gets nothing.

[Tigers12]

Getting the girl in Kiev is interactive. Hence smartphone messengers. Difficult to arrange in advance. Only established well known contacts may provide some guarantee, and even that is with 80-95% certainty. Most of the girls will have 2-3 questions:

- How are you?

- Are you in Kiev?

- What do we agree upon?

The last question may be asked about sex options, but it doesn't matter. Ultimately all they care about is money- how much will be earned and kept.

If there is no smartphone, there will be no interaction, even if in the beginning she (a girl or dispatcher) was interested in you. Easier to find someone else compliant and convenient.

Few comments about AirBnb:.

Given the limited time I will spend in Kiev and my current housing situation, it pretty much doesn't make much sense to neither dream nor expect a good score. This is the conclusion I ve reached based on the responses. Lets say I connect via internet, than I will need my own prime place. I call this Kiev visit expeditionary. Maybe next year I would put together a real mongering trip with an apartment etc.

No disrespect regarding to AirBnB. Honestly though you get the impression of whole city being a meat market, where money talks, you cut your deal and roll. Mostly because what I read on the internet perhaps. Or maybe things are changed as some of you guys pointed out.

Rio: I believe its a strip joint right? What I understand is you pick a girl, pay some to her and some to the establishment and you take her out. In this case a hotel may work do I need apartment?

How about this: Since I lowered my expectations, maybe I can check few hotel lobies and take someone upstairs if someone catches my eyes.

[Riina]

I've been using SA in Kiev. I've concluded it's corrupted by Western dudes trying to pimp. Makes me realize where all the conflict comes from. If I was living in Kiev without resources, I'd probably try to pimp some girls too to get myself by. Then it would be Riina in Kiev paradise.

[PhotoSlider]

...You have evidently developed a good system and good instincts for screening girls within first few minutes of the session...

Obviously the system is not perfect, but good enough for me in Kiev. I do get incompatible ones admitted to my bedroom, and 1 out of 15 or so is kicked out. On two occasions I even pulled the dick out, and threw the condom away in a rather foolish manner. Not a classy move on my part.

Sometimes, when the girl starts upselling extras, I say with a smile: "Vygonyu seichas! Will kick you out right now!" and they always stop. Also, I ask consolidation dispatchers if they want my feedback on visiting girls, and they always say yes please. They do like when I am happy, a matter of a personal pride for dispatcher. At the same time, the usual response to my complaints is a fake surprise:

- Strange to hear! She has only good responses from the customers.

Never heard about the girl blamed after the fact. Sometimes and very seldom, prior to cab delivery to my door for casting, dispatcher may politely suggest to pick a different girl, saying that the one I fancied is either tired, or even having a "star fever", getting too popular and feeling a little entitled.

Other than that it is the statistical game of random numbers. In Kiev it is in my favor sufficiently enough.

You also mentioned that I recover quickly. This last visit I wasn't so happy after three strike outs in a row, and stayed away from the agency for a about a week, enjoying visits from regulars. But my last 36 hours in Kiev worked out beautifully, 5 girls total, and the final delivery accord from the agency was truly an icing on the cake.

It started with a succession of 3 long term girls, that I knew very good, they trusted me, and those were quite affordable arrangements with pleasant interactions.

One of them decided to stay overnight, which I welcome, because I like taking them fresh and warm in the morning, not cold from the cab and snow outside. There was a funny moment in the morning. While she was taking the shower after sleepover, I prepared good breakfast. She exited wrapped in the towel, and I asked if she would like to have the breakfast first? She looked at me in a curious manner, almost saying:

- Don't you know what I want first?

Took me by the hand, and led away from the kitchen into the bedroom.

At midnight I was done with these three long term classy ladies, and had my Kiev friend asking to get a girl for himself. That was 7 hours before the departure to the airport, and I was not done packing yet.

I ordered two hours from consolidators. Picked a 20 year old with a very nice body and attitude for my friend, because this visit I only had one bedroom and did not want for myself to perform in the kitchen or a shower. But I knew the rejected girl from prior trips, and actually enjoyed her very much. She exclaimed in mutual admiration, but did not complaint when casting did not play out good for her. I went to Avalon on my own, and an hour later ordered her anyway. She returned in a very affectionate way, while my friend was finishing her roommate and a bottle of champagne.

And for some stupid reason I just couldn't come this time. We tried doggie, BJ, everything to no avail. Time ran out, I gave her all the condoms left in my drawer, including lubricant, she was very thankful, excused herself and left around 2 am. I packed suitcases for departure, and at 4 am said to myself:

- No, I am not jerking off! Not in Kiev!

And wrote to consolidators. They sent 2 girls. One of them I knew. In fact she is my at least top 20 all time, if not higher. At 4:30 am she arrived, freshly awoken, and visibly surprised to see me. The other girl did her best to be chosen, but in vain.

We went upstairs, and when the door closed, started with a long hug, then very sweet and tender kissing, and love making, eventually finishing with her trembling orgasm in missionary, and me simultaneously having no problem. As I said earlier, miracles happen in Kiev, especially with the right woman.

I extended, has been dizzy myself trying to find in the dark where the money is. Then she slept for an hour in my arms. I caught maybe 15-20 minutes of rapid eye movement deep sleep and much needed relaxation followed by 69 with a BBBJ and nice doggie, coming again (not so easy for me, but with her femininity and sincerity it was). Gave 1000 UAH tip, which she did not expect, and in about 10 minutes my driver arrived into the apartment. We ordered her a separate cab per agency policy, I went out to see that she departs safely (again something I do selectively), and upon arrival to her own bed she wrote me on Viber with lots of hearts and kisses. What a sweetie!

Great way to depart! I can recall maybe 3 of those in the last 15 years in Kiev.

[Kozerog]

Airbnb is a great idea, some hosts looks really inviting judging their pictures. Almost makes you thing they are providing something more than the bed and room but there seems to be no way of knowing if she is a better half of a couple trying to make few extra bucks.

Guys have been permanently banned from AirBnb, with no right of appeal, because of allegations, backed by flimsy evidence, of having sexually propositioned their hostess. Don't shit where you eat.

I didn't notice him being that aggressive in the past though,

Only shouted at the mamasan like that once. This was my first time with an agency and I wasn't aware girl would have the bad manners to immediately pick up money lying on the table, ready for counting by eye (500 uah notes). I asked if this was agency policy or hers. She said agency, so I ordered her to call them, then bellowed furiously into the phone that I wanted money to remain on the table into end of session. Thereafter, I was careful to specify in the viber negotiation with agencies what I expected.

That whole experience was quite memorable. As noted, that was my first agency girl in Kyiv (previous girls had been true independents). I was stressed out from Soviet style customer service by various agencies I was concurrently texting with. Probably a lot of the stress was my own fault: working myself up over nothing, as I often do. Then when the girl arrived, she was literally quivering from stress of her own when I met her outside. I noticed this and some demonic impulse took over inside me. Instead of trying to placate her, I approached without smiling and said gruffly: "I said on street, this yard. " I'm translating directly from Russian, since she didn't speak English. As everyone can see, basic Russian sounds very crude, caveman-like, due to the lack of articles like in English. There are ways to soften Russian with diminutives particles (nu, zhe, etc), negative questions, conditional mood, etc but at that time I didn't know all that. So indeed my speech was caveman like.

I grunted and walked ahead to the entrance. Up six flights of gloomy stairs, smelling of garbage as usual in these cheap apartment blocks. Then bellowing at the mamasan about the money. When the girl came out of the bathroom, I was holding a bottle of vodka a previous girl had asked me to buy but which she never drank. I never drink myself, but in this case I pretended to take a big swig, then coughed, and roared in bad Russian: "yobannoe ajenstvo colgalo, kak kupeetch turyrtsky covyor! Meaning something like "fucking agency lied, like buying turkish rug!" Meanwhile, there I was putting on a good imitation of the stereotype brutish patron of a Turkish sex slave brothel, or perhaps brutal drunken Cossack. Girl lay down stiffly on the bed, continuing to tremble all over, trying to numb herself out for the ordeal that awaited.

At this point, I changed tactics. Started the music, one of Morton Feldman's quiet multi hour late pieces, while lightly caressing her. She continued to tremble for a while, then gradually relaxed. After about an hour, I noticed her nipples swelling, so I put on a condom and pushed her legs apart. Teased her for a long time, just penetrating a tiny bit until I could sense she was coming, then finally thrust all the way in as she came.

Afterwards, she was much friendlier, though she never allowed kissing on the lips. Didn't matter, since she was a smoker. I asked if she liked escorting. "I hate it," she replied. I laughed long and loudly: "Yes, that obvious. " She was about 22, or almost 40 years younger. Some junky university degree in business. Pretty enough because of her youth, but the sort of slavic beauty that fades fast and hard with age.

I prefer not having clearly visible money around in my apartment, neither with new acquaintances and complete strangers, not with repeat visitors. Doing transaction in taxi allows me to get the sales aspect out of both minds. Mine and lady's, and focus on seduction so to speak (she seduce me, and the other way around).

Well we differ, and that's good. What a boring world if we were all the same! I specifically prefer money clearly visible because I think it is the best aphrodisiac for the girls I am compatible with. My jewel, for example, is very business oriented. Always has schemes going to earn money other than from escorting: buying land in the village, internet arbitrage sales (buy trinkets cheap in China, sell for slightly more in Ukraine), etc. I know nothing touches her heart more than the sight of crisp 500 uah or 100 usd notes neatly lined up on the table. Reminds me of myself when I was her age and obsessed with getting rich quick. The daughter I never had.

More seriously, reason I am so adamant about money on table until end of season is as follows. Escort girls are fundamentally lazy, that's why they picked that profession. Until money is actually in their purse, at the back of their mind is the idea that client might possibly refuse to hand over money and raise a big stink with the agency if she doesn't please him. Yes, agency has enforcers to deal with troublesome clients, but that involves time, during which girl is earning nothing, plus agency will likely blamed her as being the source of the trouble and perhaps not give her as many bookings in the future. Easy way out is thus to cooperate with the man.

I am less worried about American-style snatch-and-run, meaning taking money and leaving without providing any service, than about bad service.

Similar logic is why I also strongly advocate only contracting for sessions of one hour, but with option to extend session to multiple hours of all goes well. You have evidently developed a good system and good instincts for screening girls within first few minutes of the session. I doubt I'd be able to equal you in this respect.

As for girl staying overnight as bonus for giving her extra money, that seems like a booby prize to me. I enjoy my sessions with my jewel, maybe I even love her, to the extent I am still capable of that emotion, but after fours hours I want to be alone again. Solitude is my natural and happiest state.

[PhotoSlider]

I do lot of homework with my laptop before I travel, take notes, print out directions, bookings etc. One big downside is if you mess up, lets say miss a flight or reservation cancelled, you become pretty much stranded with limited search ability. No problem so far, I just go with the flow. Tablet sounds like a decent idea. I figure, that approach of employing the technology for the benefit of mongering is one notch ahead of me. Don't give me wrong, I am putting many hours to locate targets (locations and establishments) but still not ready to step up my game and set up appointment etc. With that hostel booking, its almost impossible anyway.

Getting the girl in Kiev is interactive. Hence smartphone messengers. Difficult to arrange in advance. Only established well known contacts may provide some guarantee, and even that is with 80-95% certainty. Most of the girls will have 2-3 questions:

- How are you?

- Are you in Kiev?

- What do we agree upon?

The last question may be asked about sex options, but it doesn't matter. Ultimately all they care about is money- how much will be earned and kept.

If there is no smartphone, there will be no interaction, even if in the beginning she (a girl or dispatcher) was interested in you. Easier to find someone else compliant and convenient.

Airbnb is a great idea, some hosts looks really inviting judging their pictures. Almost makes you thing they are providing something more than the bed and room but there seems to be no way of knowing if she is a better half of a couple trying to make few extra bucks.

Few comments about AirBnb:

Quality of apartment is judged by the pictures (of the apartment, not the host).

More important are reviews. Read them carefully, all of them.

I prefer superhosts.

Host may flirt with the customer a little bit, but it is highly unlikely to go any further. Again, the reason are reviews, and general attitude. Hosts are not in business of selling themselves, in fact usually they are too busy managing multiple properties. Even massage girls do not provide the actual sex, and take certain pride in that.

Street pimps. Possible to get the shitty end of the stick? I am far from being a paranoid person, I am not asking if I am going to wake up without my kidney or anything but the honey trap is one of the oldest trick on the book for the crooks right? Again it is probably the only source for me, I'll check to see if I can get a few good address from a local first. If not, I would be willing to take more risk and follow a pimp to a unknown location.

Risk is not so much crime (that happens too, but not as frequently as say in China). The problem is services quality, price and your time.

I would do AirBnB and KEC or Rio. These are two somewhat reliable options. They are not cheap, but within your reach. Perhaps Rio, as you can test drive the candidates before committing.

[Tigers12]

I do lot of homework with my laptop before I travel, take notes, print out directions, bookings etc. One big downside is if you mess up, lets say miss a flight or reservation cancelled, you become pretty much stranded with limited search ability. No problem so far, I just go with the flow. Tablet sounds like a decent idea. I figure, that approach of employing the technology for the benefit of mongering is one notch ahead of me. Don't give me wrong, I am putting many hours to locate targets (locations and establishments) but still not ready to step up my game and set up appointment etc. With that hostel booking, its almost impossible anyway.

Airbnb is a great idea, some hosts looks really inviting judging their pictures. Almost makes you thing they are providing something more than the bed and room but there seems to be no way of knowing if she is a better half of a couple trying to make few extra bucks. Still, it would beat the hostel and probably better cultural experience. I hesitate it because I may go out and return very late. I may disturb them.

Street pimps. Possible to get the shitty end of the stick? I am far from being a paranoid person, I am not asking if I am going to wake up without my kidney or anything but the honey trap is one of the oldest trick on the book for the crooks right? Again it is probably the only source for me, I'll check to see if I can get a few good address from a local first. If not, I would be willing to take more risk and follow a pimp to a unknown location.