East China - Shanghai

[Lemurian]

I am really surprised how naive some people are.

Just to emphasise: The PRC is a one party system police state. Just because Shanghai looks modern and like a global city, it isn't. People her do not enjoy real freedom and privacy, instead, they are under permanent surveillance. If one thing works in the PRC than it is LE. Unfortunately, LE is not so much taking care of real problems but rather focus on some horny guys who need to get a relieve. Nevertheless, as long as you don't have the permission to be jerked off from the very top level, you better do it by yourself.

[Member #4505]

Alright boys, I was one of the fellows that fell into the mess at the end of August, using sng. Everyone that was caught that night had contacted the girls via Judy within at least the last TWO weeks. Steve and Judy were both caught. From what I know they got to Judy first and used her wechat to find some of us. Also a couple of the girls were being trailed by LE for at least two weeks. The order for these busts came from up high, beyond the police chief of shanghai. Bribes did not work, one person claimed to of tried a 100 k rmb bribe.

Once caught we were detained for 24 hours then issued a 10-15 day "Administrative Detention" only 1 call allowed prior being sent to detention location where embassies were contacted in around 3-5 days, no other outside contact beyond that. While there more shanghai locals came in, we were the only foreigners. During the 8th or 9th day, rumors of more raids came in from spas, MP, and saunas, a total of 80-100 detained.

The Administrative detention is considered a slap on the wrist and as far as I know will not impact employment directly unless your employer has connections and decide to dig deep but you will have to explain going missing for 10-15 days..

Just curious, could you go over in more detail how they apprehended you? What time of the day was it? How much longer after the deed was it?

[Member #4505]

Glad to hear that the independents that were on SNG are still free.

Though even if someone never used Judy's hotline and went to the independents I would still be wary of considering oneself safe. What if the LE is looking to get more of SNG's girls to gather even more evidence?

If Judy's wechat and contacts are in the hands of LE why would they not also go after the freelancers advertising on SNG? I would feel pretty certain the freelancers were in contact with Judy and / or Steve to arrange fees so they could advertise on SNG, or even worse give them a commission.

It would just be more evidence and confessions they can use to build a case against Judy and Steven.

I would stay away from Shanghai if I had any contact with anyone associated with SNG.

This crackdown has proven to be dangerous and especially unpredictable. Seems like some posters, and even Steven on SNG, were certain contacting freelancers would be safe.

Where are they now?

This is China, The LE don't need real evidence to detain you. They just need to have any reason to believe you had something to do with it.

All I'm saying is, prepare for the worst. Over last few years all cities in China have gone through this "sex trade purge" and as far as I can tell the trade never returned in these places.

Be safe and if you have to stay in Shanghai then go for an airbnb or something like that. At least you might not have to register with the local police that way.

[The Guy]

I'm all about mongering while minimizing risk in every way possible.

If using Judy, here's what I do:

- use fake name.

- use untraceable phone no wechat account.

- do not reveal exact address. (I meet the girl on the street on arrival.).

These measures are not foolproof, but they minimize risk. Cops would have to question girl, and she'd have to remember I live in apartment 2301 (or is it 2203?).

Some guys brag to girl about where they work, even give her a business card. Not me. No unnecessary risk.

[Fifty Shades]

Don't apply USA laws to China. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't necessarily work in China. Obviously Judy kept a log or something saying SAMCAN was at the ritz. You have to use your real name because they call the hotel and call the desk and ask to be transferred to SAMCAN's room to ensure you are there. Too many guys have a girl come and don't use their name and are not there after the girl gets there.

If the police have a real name and a date, they can check cameras. I am sure a girl going to your room that was on the SNG Log to the hotel you went to would be enough to close the deal in China.

Definitely agree that the international rules of evidence don't apply here. But were they even relevant at all? Question did LE get confessions or admissions of guilt before releasing the people detained? I would be surprised if they didn't. If they got confessions or admissions, there was never a real need to establish a solid trail of evidence. This is the usual LE playbook all around the world. The confessions could then be used against the business operators. The people arrested may have been just supporting actors in a drama involving some bigger fish. The fact that they were only given administrative detention after all that effort also suggests that they were just bit players. Just guessing, of course.

[Boag11]

First, thanks a lot for this report. This was very insightful.

However, I still want to break this down to calm some nerves and clarify as some people might be freaking out.

Given what I read, if you a) Avoid talking to Judy (as that's how some people got lured in by the police) or any other manager, you are partly safe. We all need to do that anyway going forward.

Now, for retroactive activity, you also mentioned that, "If you contacted Judy in the last month I suggest staying away from shanghai, at least 2 foreigners were brought in and detained TWO weeks after the fact. They will go to your hotel to pick you up and look up hotel security cameras for proof of girls entering and leaving your room" - When you say contact, I think you mean you both contacted and agreed on a meeting. If it's just contact to inquire information, I don't see why it would justify getting detained. Also, how would they find the hotel? Perhaps this assumes that they will go to the same place that you arranged the meeting at? I guess they would need to check the details from Judy's phone and go to your exact hotel that you're staying in today? What if you're not in the same hotel / room anymore? Maybe they can look up information somehow via your phone number?

Even if you agreed on a meeting, they would need proof of illegal activity. Security camera evidence of a woman coming in and out of your room shouldn't be cause but together with a text message confirming a meeting might be enough depending on the contents of the text message. Can't you say you met up and never actually did anything or got a massage? Maybe that's just not convincing enough.

For western standards yes, they would need more proof. But apparently not for Shanghai police. They questioned both parties and if inconsistencies arises then you will get more days in detention. As long as they get the statement they want from you or the girl then both will get detained. They also claimed at the beginning if you are truthful you will get a slap on the wrist, 10 days detention was the slap on the wrist. One person was told, if he rejected the girl and she left within 10-15 minutes then the LE wouldn't of bothered with him but since she stayed for much longer they took him in based on that alone.

[SamCan]

First, thanks a lot for this report. This was very insightful.


Even if you agreed on a meeting, they would need proof of illegal activity. Security camera evidence of a woman coming in and out of your room shouldn't be cause but together with a text message confirming a meeting might be enough depending on the contents of the text message. Can't you say you met up and never actually did anything or got a massage? Maybe that's just not convincing enough.

Don't apply USA laws to China. Innocent until proven guilty doesn't necessarily work in China. Obviously Judy kept a log or something saying SAMCAN was at the ritz. You have to use your real name because they call the hotel and call the desk and ask to be transferred to SAMCAN's room to ensure you are there. Too many guys have a girl come and don't use their name and are not there after the girl gets there.

If the police have a real name and a date, they can check cameras. I am sure a girl going to your room that was on the SNG Log to the hotel you went to would be enough to close the deal in China.

[MArcade]

First, thanks a lot for this report. This was very insightful.

However, I still want to break this down to calm some nerves and clarify as some people might be freaking out.

Given what I read, if you a) Avoid talking to Judy (as that's how some people got lured in by the police) or any other manager, you are partly safe. We all need to do that anyway going forward.

Now, for retroactive activity, you also mentioned that, "If you contacted Judy in the last month I suggest staying away from shanghai, at least 2 foreigners were brought in and detained TWO weeks after the fact. They will go to your hotel to pick you up and look up hotel security cameras for proof of girls entering and leaving your room" - When you say contact, I think you mean you both contacted and agreed on a meeting. If it's just contact to inquire information, I don't see why it would justify getting detained. Also, how would they find the hotel?.

I agree with this and wanted to add on top of that. I don't think they are targeting the clientele. Like it was said, there's hundreds of thousands of clients. I think the customers who got picked up this time were 'collateral'. The evidence they took from the hotel camera's I suspect wasn't meant to put the customer in jail, but the escort girl. Before the site went dead, the number of active girls reporting under judy was 14 (Hu Jing, Purple, Baby, Susan, Alisa (R), Pia, Tessa, Baobao, Tina, Daisy, Alia (R), Maria, Kiki, Malena). Though statuses might have changed, and I know Hu Jing is still free and Jessica is in jail. All the independent escort girls are still free as well.

It would be interesting if Boag can tell us of the 14 foreigners who got picked up; which girl they believed got them in jail. Gives a clue as well which girl is likely now in jail.

My guess is is as Boag11 said. They got onto Judy, followed her and her girls for awhile until they had hard evidence all her girls were escorts, also got to Steven & then started arresting them on Aug 31st.

But again, since it's not mid October yet; the police still can have more tricks up their sleeves. I would not do anything in Shanghai right now.

[Ikksman]

{S N I P}Even if you agreed on a meeting, they would need proof of illegal activity. Security camera evidence of a woman coming in and out of your room shouldn't be cause but together with a text message confirming a meeting might be enough depending on the contents of the text message. Can't you say you met up and never actually did anything or got a massage? Maybe that's just not convincing enough.

Do Chinese Police need proof? And there are also stories of them 'finding' a condom in a waste bin and using that as sufficient evidence, whether it be in a sauna or a hotel room.

Anyway, SNG may have been specifically targeted. I understand Steven had close contact with a very senior GA official. The recent change of guard in Shanghai may have been the trigger for his demise.

Ikks.

[Keric333]

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. Glad to know you seem to be okay and able to give us some insight about what happened. I don't quite understand how they caught people from Steven or Judy's wechat acct. Did LE use Judy's acct pretending to be her and entrap people? Or did they just show up at your place of residence and charge you based on things said on wechat?

If this is the case, I don't see Judy or Steven being treated lightly. Considering that they were the organizers, they should be in some serious trouble regardless if they cooperated or not with LE.

[TheTrooper21]

Everyone that was caught that night had contacted the girls via Judy within at least the last TWO weeks. Steve and Judy were both caught. From what I know they got to Judy first and used her wechat to find some of us. Also a couple of the girls were being trailed by LE for at least two weeks. The order for these busts came from up high, beyond the police chief of shanghai. Bribes did not work, one person claimed to of tried a 100 k rmb bribe.

As far as I know the raids might go on for a bit longer and might extend into November. If you contacted Judy in the last month I suggest staying away from shanghai, at least 2 foreigners were brought in and detained TWO weeks after the fact. They will go to your hotel to pick you up and look up hotel security cameras for proof of girls entering and leaving your room.

GL.

First, thanks a lot for this report. This was very insightful.

However, I still want to break this down to calm some nerves and clarify as some people might be freaking out.

Given what I read, if you a) Avoid talking to Judy (as that's how some people got lured in by the police) or any other manager, you are partly safe. We all need to do that anyway going forward.

Now, for retroactive activity, you also mentioned that, "If you contacted Judy in the last month I suggest staying away from shanghai, at least 2 foreigners were brought in and detained TWO weeks after the fact. They will go to your hotel to pick you up and look up hotel security cameras for proof of girls entering and leaving your room" - When you say contact, I think you mean you both contacted and agreed on a meeting. If it's just contact to inquire information, I don't see why it would justify getting detained. Also, how would they find the hotel? Perhaps this assumes that they will go to the same place that you arranged the meeting at? I guess they would need to check the details from Judy's phone and go to your exact hotel that you're staying in today? What if you're not in the same hotel / room anymore? Maybe they can look up information somehow via your phone number?

Even if you agreed on a meeting, they would need proof of illegal activity. Security camera evidence of a woman coming in and out of your room shouldn't be cause but together with a text message confirming a meeting might be enough depending on the contents of the text message. Can't you say you met up and never actually did anything or got a massage? Maybe that's just not convincing enough.

[TheTrooper21]

I guess the question at this point is: If you have contacted a sauna via Wechat at anytime in the past, are you in danger? If people who contacted Judy from SNG were in danger, then certainly it means the higher ups are indeed targeting actual clientele, not just the establishments. Does anyone have any stories or info about being apprehended solely based on evidence of being in the contact lists for a sauna manager (or having a chat history with one)?

I cannot imagine they would try to catch everyone who has ever contacted a sauna. That would be hundreds of thousands of people!

Agree with you.

Haven't heard of anyone getting apprehended because they're in contact with Judy or other sauna managers. I think to actually charged a person requires harder evidence as even if you commit to a sauna appointment or appointment, it's not enough evidence to prove that you paid for illegal services rendered.

However, if you're actually in a sauna during a raid, there's more circumstantial evidence to charge you. What if you're in the waiting area, for example? Is it illegal to just be in an sauna at all? Is one able to play dumb and say you didn't know what this was & thought you were getting a massage?

[Optional]

The Chinese govt wants everyone to link their sim card to their identity. In fact, it's now the law. The phone number connected to the sim card is used to establish a wechat account. In that manner, the govt always knows who has said what on wechat.

If you establish the wechat acct with a foreign number, or better yet, use a Chinese sim card in someone else's name, that's safer. Some of the 5 star hotels sell sim cards for tourists (as a convenience). Those are a good option.

I guess the question at this point is: If you have contacted a sauna via Wechat at anytime in the past, are you in danger? If people who contacted Judy from SNG were in danger, then certainly it means the higher ups are indeed targeting actual clientele, not just the establishments. Does anyone have any stories or info about being apprehended solely based on evidence of being in the contact lists for a sauna manager (or having a chat history with one)?

I cannot imagine they would try to catch everyone who has ever contacted a sauna. That would be hundreds of thousands of people!

[MArcade]

Which of the girls were they tracking exactly? Were any of them Viets?

Should you be fine if you contacted the girls directly, not through Judy?

All the independent girls that were not using the hotline are still free. Though doesn't mean they're safe, maybe police is planning a second wave. Though I assume they knew the girls would start running for the hills the moment Steven disappeared.

[Ikksman]

The Chinese govt wants everyone to link their sim card to their identity. In fact, it's now the law. The phone number connected to the sim card is used to establish a wechat account. In that manner, the govt always knows who has said what on wechat.
If you establish the wechat acct with a foreign number, or better yet, use a Chinese sim card in someone else's name, that's safer. Some of the 5 star hotels sell sim cards for tourists (as a convenience). Those are a good option.

Thanks, I understand. I was hoping that you had discovered a way to have total anonymity on your We Chat account.

I actually have one WeChat account (established late 2011) that is associated with a SIM / phone number purchased in 2010, and no longer used, and an anonymous email account. So, there is no link to me AFAIK. But I am still cautious!

Ikks.