East China - Shanghai

[Keric333]

First off, sorry to hear about your ordeal and thankful for you sharing it with us.

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. I'm just curious as to where LE picked you up from. Is it from the current hotel you are staying in? Is it the same hotel where you did the deed? While you were detained, did they go through your phone?

I don't think the johns were collateral if LE went out of their way to pick up the johns and detain them. To be honest, I'm a bit worried considering that I've had previous conversations with saunas on wechat and qq. Granted, they don't have my addy but knowing I exist as a client gives me the chills.

[Member #4505]

Once caught we were detained for 24 hours then issued a 10-15 day "Administrative Detention" only 1 call allowed prior being sent to detention location where embassies were contacted in around 3-5 days, no other outside contact beyond that. While there more shanghai locals came in, we were the only foreigners. During the 8th or 9th day, rumors of more raids came in from spas, MP, and saunas, a total of 80-100 detained.

The Administrative detention is considered a slap on the wrist and as far as I know will not impact employment directly unless your employer has connections and decide to dig deep but you will have to explain going missing for 10-15 days. 2 were let go with a 500 rmb fine, I do not know the reasons why.

As far as I know the raids might go on for a bit longer and might extend into November. If you contacted Judy in the last month I suggest staying away from shanghai, at least 2 foreigners were brought in and detained TWO weeks after the fact. They will go to your hotel to pick you up and look up hotel security cameras for proof of girls entering and leaving your room.

GL.

Now that you have done the 10 - 15 days detention, will your visa be blacklisted for some time? I thought that was the standard.

Also, how do you know the raids will go on into November? Did the LE tell you?

[Fifty Shades]

I don't think that is true. When they picked up me they already had the girl I was with as well as Judy and her laptops and phones. They got the camera for me I am pretty sure.

The admissions of guilt from everyone arrested will likely be used against the people that LE regards as the "kingpins", aka Stephen and Judy. In fact, even Stephen and Judy might not have been the real targets. It could be the officials who were paid off. If the customers arrested were not actually shown the hotel videos, LE may not have even bothered to get them. All LE needed were the admissions of guilt. To get those admissions, they can say anything, including claims of having videos, DNA evidence, surveillance from satellites, etc, and an offer to let everyone off easily if they admit guilt. It would have worked the same way in most cities in the world.

[Boag11]

I think the customers who got picked up this time were 'collateral'. The evidence they took from the hotel camera's I suspect wasn't meant to put the customer in jail, but the escort girl.

I don't think that is true. When they picked up me they already had the girl I was with as well as Judy and her laptops and phones. They got the camera for me I am pretty sure.

[Boag11]

I agree with this and wanted to add on top of that. I don't think they are targeting the clientele. Like it was said, there's hundreds of thousands of clients. I think the customers who got picked up this time were 'collateral'. The evidence they took from the hotel camera's I suspect wasn't meant to put the customer in jail, but the escort girl. Before the site went dead, the number of active girls reporting under judy was 14 (Hu Jing, Purple, Baby, Susan, Alisa (R), Pia, Tessa, Baobao, Tina, Daisy, Alia (R), Maria, Kiki, Malena). Though statuses might have changed, and I know Hu Jing is still free and Jessica is in jail. All the independent escort girls are still free as well.

It would be interesting if Boag can tell us of the 14 foreigners who got picked up; which girl they believed got them in jail. Gives a clue as well which girl is likely now in jail.

My guess is is as Boag11 said. They got onto Judy, followed her and her girls for awhile until they had hard evidence all her girls were escorts, also got to Steven & then started arresting them on Aug 31st.

But again, since it's not mid October yet; the police still can have more tricks up their sleeves. I would not do anything in Shanghai right now.

I won't give you the names of the Chinese girls that were detained because I feel it isn't fair for them. [Deleted by Admin] There were either 5 or 6 of Judy's Chinese girls there and 1 were released for sure and maybe another one but 100% not sure, don't know the reason but I am 100% sure at least one was released.

[Sinofaguo]

Considering the current campaign, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to hit some agencies whom advertise on the internet too (they busted some chinese agencies a few months back, at some point they can aim foreigner oriented ones too). Since they have chinese phone numbers or wechat, how hard can it be for the authorities to listen to these booking requests and bust meetings at hotel rooms?
When you think about it, its very easy to do.

I guess this warning from a month ago wasn't so far from the truth after all.

[Msukc]

I checked it out. It's 590 rmb for non members. And there were no extras. But maybe I got unlucky with a nervous provider. Massage wasn't great either. Waste of money and 2 hours.

I got a great massage. Worked from fingers to toes. They gave me the member special too. Your math is correct A tad expensive perhaps. But great massage. And really nice girl. I guess ymmv.

I am not an expert on China massage. But I have yet to not get a he with a massage in China. I've gone to probably 15 places and they all provided at least a handjob. At varying prices. They all upsell when you are vulnerable.

[TheTrooper21]

For sake of clarity on the likelihood of "getting in trouble", the only genuine cases (not speculation) that we've heard of customers getting detained are:

A) During the time the police controlled Judy's phone or trailed some SNL girls (from late August), you contacted Judy or SNL girl, agreed on an arrangement, and went through with the service and you're in a hotel where there is security camera evidence of woman coming in and out of your room.

Appears that you can get detained anywhere from zero to 14 days after the deed. Even longer than that, it's not clear yet.

So far I've yet to hear any real evidence of people getting detained if:

1) You moved to a different location since you did the deed.

2) You arranged a meeting, did the deed, but the hotel did not have security camera evidence.

3) You made inquiries to Judy but didn't arrange a meeting.

4) You arranged a meeting with another manager (not Judy).

5) You arranged a meeting with someone at Judy's, Manhattans, etc.

6) You got a he at a massage parlor that still allows it.

**This is not to say that you can't in trouble if you do the above, but we haven't heard anything concrete yet. If you have, please report it so we can safeguard ourselves.

As others mentioned, it's simply not safe in Shanghai. It's probably best to stay away from everything until things become more clear.

Although Judy / Manhattan's seem safe, I'm concerned that the police has some of those girls as bait. I don't want to scare anybody off, but if the police are continuing to escalate things, then we should expect more tricks.

[Sinofaguo]

if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?

What will they do? Noone knows.

What can they do? They can follow you and the girl from the bar to the hotel. Ask the hotel security for access to CCTV to discretly determine which room both of you went in. And then wait for the "perfect moment" to break in and arrest the both of you.

Deport the girl and blacklist her visa for 5 years if she's a foreigner.

Is it common? Not that much in Shanghai, more common in Beijing in the past but has been done in the past in Shanghai too back in the expo days and mainly for 3* hotels. In Beijing there were many events shown on TV of Russian WG being followed from the bar to the hotel in 2011 anti yellow fever or however they called it campaign, .

[Ikksman]

I am really surprised how naive some people are.

We are all naive in some areas.

Just to emphasise: The PRC is a one party system police state.

It is also a 3 faction party, whose factions try to eliminate members of the other factions. There have been instances of planes exploding, PLA naval ships being fired at by other PLA vessels attempting to kill a senior leader, and poisonings. Under Pooh Bear's regime (and he has survived a number of assassination plots), he has used corruption charges to eliminate government officials who support rival factions (over a million have been disciplined in some way).

Just because Shanghai looks modern and like a global city, it isn't. People her do not enjoy real freedom and privacy, instead, they are under permanent surveillance.

Just like many countries, but over the past few years, the measures in China have become more draconian and been aided by greedy American corporations willing to do anything that might help them get a bigger slice of the gigantic Chinese pie. For example, American software companies handing over all their source code to the CCP. There are many, many more examples.

If one thing works in the PRC than it is LE. Unfortunately, LE is not so much taking care of real problems but rather focus on some horny guys who need to get a relieve.

I have no real criticism of the LE. Their 'focus' is partly determined at the provincial level whose Party Secretary may very well have his own agenda. And ever hear of the "3 Vices Campaign", sometimes referred to as the Great Yanda? Prostitution is only one of those 3 'vices' that is being targeted to cut the cash flow and facilitate corruption charges against Pooh Bear's opponents (mainly the Jiang Zemin Shanghai Faction rather than the China Youth League faction).

The case of SNG is unusual. I witnessed the takedown of the mongering scene in Shenzhen and Dongguan, and read of the demise of other cities in the south. During these periods, I have never heard of police examining an agent's records and days later going to hotels or apartments to detain foreigners for the crime' of having invited a visitor. They probably only needed the hotels' video recordings to verify the room number.

One last thought. Just imagine the mongering scene in China today if Bo Xilai rather than Xi Jinping had been appointed Chairman in 2012!

Ikks.

[Lemurian]

Another question (sorry if it is stupid):

I am not interested in Sauna or Barber. I would go to a Bar, mainly to take a drink or two and watch the scene and people. If I will be in a bar like MH or Judy, is this already a crime? Will these bars as well be observed and focused at the moment?

And: if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?

I am serious, I am a greenhorn, I had been once in shanghai, took a girl from MH to hotel and spent wonderful time, Dec 16. I would like to repeat, but now: I am frightened to repeat. She was Viet. I will be back in SH in Nov.

What do you think pros? Ich.

There is no such thing as a guarantee that you are safe, however, it's not forbidden date girls.

As I said; the PRC is kind of a police state. If they want to take you in, then you are fucked. Don't be naive, they know exactly how to inquire. Personally, I always stick to the law of the country I stay and never made experiences by doing so. But this Steven will face big trouble, lucky him that the capital penalty for arranging prostitution is no longer applied. But several years in prison up to a life sentence seems realistic if found guilty. Good luck.

[Lando1906]

Another question (sorry if it is stupid):

I am not interested in Sauna or Barber. I would go to a Bar, mainly to take a drink or two and watch the scene and people. If I will be in a bar like MH or Judy, is this already a crime? Will these bars as well be observed and focused at the moment?

And: if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?

I am serious, I am a greenhorn, I had been once in shanghai, took a girl from MH to hotel and spent wonderful time, Dec 16. I would like to repeat, but now: I am frightened to repeat. She was Viet. I will be back in SH in Nov.

What do you think pros? Ich.

[Lando1906]

Another question (sorry if it is stupid):

I am not interested in Sauna or Barber. I would go to a Bar, mainly to take a drink or two and watch the scene and people. If I will be in a bar like MH or Judy, is this already a crime?! Will these bars as well be observed and focused at the moment?

And: if I talk to a girl there and we will go to my hotel, what will the hotel do? Block me and her? Call police? And will they break my door and catch me or what may happen?

I am serious, I am a greenhorn, I had been once in shanghai, took a girl from MH to hotel and spent wonderful time, Dec 16. I would like to repeat, but now: I am frightened to repeat. She was Viet. I will be back in SH in Nov.

What do you think pros?

[Boag11]

Just curious, could you go over in more detail how they apprehended you? What time of the day was it? How much longer after the deed was it?

1 day after the deed, came at 2 am. Used security camera to see the girl coming and leaving and Judy's wechat.

[Sinofaguo]

For western standards yes, they would need more proof. But apparently not for Shanghai police. They questioned both parties and if inconsistencies arises then you will get more days in detention. As long as they get the statement they want from you or the girl then both will get detained. They also claimed at the beginning if you are truthful you will get a slap on the wrist, 10 days detention was the slap on the wrist. One person was told, if he rejected the girl and she left within 10-15 minutes then the LE wouldn't of bothered with him but since she stayed for much longer they took him in based on that alone.

LE can keep you up to 15 days as Administrative Detention to question you.

But past that they'll need evidence to charge you in order to keep you for a longer time.

Unless they found evidence (used condom with your DNA / the receiving party), or got you or the other party to admit, they can't charge you.

Very often they'll scam you saying that the other party already admited this, that if you cooperate they'll be more leniant. Some Japanese guy was asked when coming out of a MP what he had done and told that if he said the truth they'd be lenient. He said I just got a massage and HJ there... booom the shop was closed, all girls taken away for 15 days, the jap guy still got 10 days...

Truth is by admitting things you are only incriminating yourself.

It is also true that for mass events like these, they'll rarelly charge you and will use mostly the administrative detention as a standard punishment if its your first offense. And yeah, being 10 to 15 days in jail is already a big punishment and a complicated thing to explain to your employer or wife. Especially if they've been told why you were in jail by the police.