Kyoto

[Romannose]

He was taken advantage of by a piece of filth. This piece of filth knew that there was nothing that Mr Kopf could do about it.

I'm happy he was able to enjoy himself and he shouldn't feel that he has made any grevious mistakes.

I'd love to know how to identify the trap that he fell in. Does anyone have any advice?

[Homer69]

Unfortunately, in cases like this, the damage has been done. The Japanese society has social norms that are based on individual sacrifice for the good of the group. This concept is extremely difficult to grasp for foreigners. It is also whacked in the opinion of myself, but that's the way it is. It is considered rude and totally out of line to complain in a way that anyone might lose face, which is the most important thing (saving face) to any Japanese. But there's another dimension to this. The Japanese derive great pleasure in seeing others lose face, just not of their causing if others can see it. They are masters at sabotaging each other if they can do it undetected. If there is any risk of detection they avoid the risk.

This is all very complicated and takes time to figure out. The outward politeness and civility is actually conflicted by an inner rudeness, cruelty and disdain for strangers. Honne and tatemae - look it up and you will see what I mean.

One thing you have to realize is that if you don't behave in the fuzoku world, there will be consequences. The primary consequence is that foreigners are not allowed in. That's very unfortunate but that's the way it is. In the worst case, the local association representative is brought in to deal with the situation. In the best case in that event, they scare the bejesus out of you and let you go, sometimes just slapping you around (no marks left). In any event, the matter gets taken care of in private and you are sent on your way.

Regarding your comment about your "right to complain," I think it should be better said that you have a right to voice your concern. "Complain" is far too strong of a word because it means that you were wronged, which means the business loses face. This is the wrong way to go about seeking remedy. Your first duty when voicing concern should have been to thank the tencho for letting you get service as a gaijin. This sets up your right to voice some concern.

Making any kind of threat immediately causes you and the business to lose face because it's gotten to the point where there is little chance for a successful solution where both parties would be able to save face. They had no choice at that point but to call the local representative to take care of the situation.

Thanks for all the helpful, informative posts. I realise I did not deal with the situation as a local would, but:

1/ I am obviously a tourist, although I speak a tiny bit of Japanese.

2/ I was offered 'oral sex' both verbally, in English and also in sign language.

I still think I had the right to complain, although I agree I did so to the wrong person.

Thanks again.

[Romannose]

I have had a 50% refund when given terrible service (HJ not BJ). The girl even spit in the kleenex to show the guy, but he didn't believe her.

The whole scam was show picts of girls not there, get in a tiny room and have the gals push you to go to the "big room" for special service.

Egad!

It might make an interesting post if you told the tale.

[Richard Kopf]

Thanks for all the helpful, informative posts. I realise I did not deal with the situation as a local would, but:

1/ I am obviously a tourist, although I speak a tiny bit of Japanese.

2/ I was offered 'oral sex' both verbally, in English and also in sign language.

I still think I had the right to complain, although I agree I did so to the wrong person.

Thanks again.

[Homer69]

as long as we're telling ripoff stories, i'll add one, albeit it turned out ok because i was polite with the tencho and explained my situation. i found a chinese esute in tokyo shitamachi (i'd rather not say where it was but it's a very small station and it's the only fuzoku place in the neighborhood so that rules out ueno, okachimachi, etc.) once that looked promising. the japanese website had nice photos, the service was fs and the cost was 10k. i went to the place, talked to the tencho and he seemed anxious to have me as a customer. my first thought was, "great, a place that takes gaijin in tokyo, pretty nice..." i asked him about what service was offered and he said very clearly, "everything" which includes fs.

so, i paid my money, ended up with a self-shower that i had to walk naked wrapped in a towel to through the front area. no real complaints but anyone experienced knows this is probably the worst setup for a shower. i cleaned up and was met by the lady. she was ok, maybe early 30's or mid 30's, i'm ok with that. so we get into the room which was more like a booth with a curtain and a bunk. she undresses and starts giving me a hj, once little homer becomes big homer she slips the raincoat on and i'm thinking, "great, this is not that bad." i can't wait to experience her cbj skills.

except then she climbs up on the bed and mounts big homer and starts pumping away. she's not bad and it was quite enjoyable, however, i missed out on the cbj (i didn't expect bbbj). well, after i finished, i asked her about why there was no bj. she pretended to only speak chinese at that point so i left it at that. she led me to the shower and i cleaned up and then she went in the shower to clean herself up. i waited for her in the roomlet and then she escorted me out.

the tencho asked my opinion and i said it was ok and thank you for servicing a gaijin, etc. i also told him that i expected a bj and he looked puzzled and said it's part of the service. he went back and talked to the lady and then came back and apologized profusely to me and asked me to please come back again soon and gave me a handwritten discount ticket for 7k. he said that the lady thought that because the hj was so successful that a bj would have finished me and that she felt it was best to mount right at that point. i told him that was a little bit out of line and that i was disappointed.

i asked for a business card and he didn't have any. i asked for their phone number and he gave me his keitai. at that point, i figured the place was a bit shady, operating on the edge and i figured i needed to find a different place, even though this one was good for fs. their website disappeared shortly thereafter.

i just revisited the place a few months ago and it's still there but a different tencho is running it with a different keitai. i'm guessing that this is some sort of rental or temporary operation rented out to a tencho on a contract basis (given they use a keitai for their phone number, even though they have a real phone and fax there). i didn't try the service but he said everything is offered with a chinese lady for 10k. i wouldn't recommend this place. there are better korean fs places around for the same price that are far better.

if it makes you feel any better, i still remember the best ripoff i ever got nailed for - a japanese nozoki-beya (peepshow) that offered "extra special service" for 20,000 yen. in most places, that amount of money is virtually a guarantee of fs - in this place it was a lackluster covered hj from a grouchy young woman who was irritated that i wasn't finishing in the first 30 seconds, and tossed me out (instead of off) after 5 minutes. needless to say, i haven't been back.

[Lion]

The "Japanese way" seems to be to throw temper tantrums, bully and intimidate. Once your money is taken you'll NEVER get it back, so it is best to just accept it and be on your way. You have ABSOLUTELY no recourse, especially as a tourist.

I have had a 50% refund when given terrible service (HJ not BJ). The girl even spit in the kleenex to show the guy, but he didn't believe her.

The whole scam was show picts of girls not there, get in a tiny room and have the gals push you to go to the "big room" for special service.

[Sudsy]

as homer and aussie have both pointed out, you actually didn't handle the situation as well as you could have.

1) looking through your backposts, you're based in oz and seem to be most familar (in asia) with the thailand scene. you don't mention if you can speak japanese, but i would hazard a guess that you didn't bargain for what you thought you were bargaining for in the first place. just because most of the shops in the road were pink salon type establishments doesn't mean that that one was. there are establishments (tekokiya) that specialise in handjobs, and there are also establishments that simply allow kissing and groping. from your description (she was drinking with you, kissing and groping) it sounds like you may have hit the latter.

2) the tout out front is not the person to complain to. there is always a shop manager (tencho) and in a legitimate shop, they are usually quite forthcoming about making things right, be it with discount tickets on your next visit, an apology from the girl, or a replacement girl right away.

3) threatening to call the police is dicey with a legitimate service establishment, and downright dangerous with an unlicensed one. even the legitimate shops are not popular with the authorities, but the illegal shops are usually not run (directly) by the japanese mafia - most often they're run by koreans or chinese, and they're much more violence prone than the japanese. you were right to leave quickly when you realised that slip-up.

4) assuming that the police would take your side in any event. in disputes between japanese and foreigner, the police will almost invariably take the side of the japanese national.

so, basically, you may not have been defrauded at all, but even if you had, you take your lumps and you learn your lessons. once your money is in their hands, it's not coming back. make your displeasure known quietly and politely to the shop manager, and if compensation is forthcoming, be thankful and polite, if it is not forthcoming, be polite as you leave and don't go there again.

if it makes you feel any better, i still remember the best ripoff i ever got nailed for - a japanese nozoki-beya (peepshow) that offered "extra special service" for 20,000 yen. in most places, that amount of money is virtually a guarantee of fs - in this place it was a lackluster covered hj from a grouchy young woman who was irritated that i wasn't finishing in the first 30 seconds, and tossed me out (instead of off) after 5 minutes. needless to say, i haven't been back.

i'm sure it's not the japanese way to quote for a service and then not deliver it. i refute that i did anything incorrect. i did not lose my temper, just threatened to call cops if they refused to complete the transaction after i had paid. how would you suggest to deal with a situation where you had been defrauded of money?

homer69- it wasn't the police i was scared of. as an infrequent visitor, i am unaware of the ways of the japanese but wouldn't take the risk of organised criminals expressing their displeasure at a gaijin.

editor's note: i certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the reports of distinction thread. please click here for more information.

[Homer69]

In the fuzoku world, it often occurs that you do not get the service you think you are entitled to. That is especially true for Chinese places, although it does happen at legitimate Japanese places, too. The fact that you made a threat to call the police was wrong. That is definitely not the Japanese way. The Japanese way is to take your lumps, be quiet about it, voice your concerns quietly, smile and be on your way. If you don't believe this, others here will back that up. Japanese are very docile in this way, unlike foreigners. That's one reason why foreigners are shut out of the fuzoku world.

Second, the police have no primary jurisdiction in the fuzoku world unless a crime has occurred. Your matter is civil and not considered a serious crime, even though you deem yourself defrauded. Lawsuits are infrequent in Japan and the business owner is holding all of the cards in these matters.
The local association representative is the primary enforcer. Once he shows up, you're committed to closing the matter with him. If you are polite and civil, he will be polite and civil. If you make threats to call the police, he will escalate his tactics in the matter. This is the Japanese way.
My only advice is to use common sense and stay safe.

I'm sure it's not the Japanese way to quote for a service and then not deliver it. I refute that I did anything incorrect. I did not lose my temper, just threatened to call cops if they refused to complete the transaction after I had paid. How would you suggest to deal with a situation where you had been defrauded of money?

Homer69- it wasn't the police I was scared of. As an infrequent visitor, I am unaware of the ways of the Japanese but wouldn't take the risk of organised criminals expressing their displeasure at a gaijin.

[Romannose]

While you were probably entitled to be grieved by your treatment at this shop, your response to the staff (anger and threats) is one of the reasons that many places do not want to accept foreigners. This is not the "Japanese way".

The "Japanese way" seems to be to throw temper tantrums, bully and intimidate. Once your money is taken you'll NEVER get it back, so it is best to just accept it and be on your way. You have ABSOLUTELY no recourse, especially as a tourist. NO ONE will help you. And don't expect honesty or fairness from people who make a living bilking drunks and the unwary out of their money. At least they don't try to take more than the advertised price.

Does anyone know of the newest place Mr Kopf describes?

[Richard Kopf]

After some shopping, this morning, I found myself at Kawaramachi and Shijo so I walked the alley again. The touts in the alley I described last night, even in the same bars, didn't want gaijin customers in the daytime.

I went around the corner to a place across from the Rainbow Bar - it had no English sign and greeted the tout. He invited me in - last night I was ignored there.

The price was 5000. I ordered a Coke, which never came, but no. 20, Yukari, did. She was tiny and thin and around 35-40, but cute in the dark.

She stripped allbut her panties and gave a great BBBJ. Left me with a smile on my face.

[Richard Kopf]

While you were probably entitled to be grieved by your treatment at this shop, your response to the staff (anger and threats) is one of the reasons that many places do not want to accept foreigners. This is not the "Japanese way".

I'm sure it's not the Japanese way to quote for a service and then not deliver it. I refute that I did anything incorrect. I did not lose my temper, just threatened to call cops if they refused to complete the transaction after I had paid. How would you suggest to deal with a situation where you had been defrauded of money?

Homer69- it wasn't the police I was scared of. As an infrequent visitor, I am unaware of the ways of the Japanese but wouldn't take the risk of organised criminals expressing their displeasure at a gaijin.

[Homer69]

I doubt they were going to call the police right away. That's not the way things work. They were probably going to contact the local association representative to remedy their situation and get you into an area where you wouldn't run their customers off. Once the representative listens to both sides' stories and dispatches his justice, then and only then will he call the local police to write a report and clean up. I watched this happen once at a bar. From when the guy sent the text message to when the representative in the black suit showed up must have been less than 30 seconds.

I stood to leave and said I was going to talk to the boss. She followed me out where I complained angrily to the tout and threatened to get the police. He started to SMS on his phone so I cut my losses and moved off quickly in case trouble was on its way. I felt very confined in that place, too so I wouldn't recommend it as it's hard to get comfortable with the girland at least one of them is a scammer.

[AussieGaigin]

I stood to leave and said I was going to talk to the boss. She followed me out where I complained angrily to the tout and threatened to get the police. He started to SMS on his phone so I cut my losses and moved off quickly in case trouble was on its way.

While you were probably entitled to be grieved by your treatment at this shop, your response to the staff (anger and threats) is one of the reasons that many places do not want to accept foreigners. This is not the "Japanese way".

[Romannose]

I stopped at the last tout on the left. He quoted me 7000 for 40 mins. I pointed a a sign that said 6000 and he said that was for only 30 mins. Good enough.

Is this shop located half way down the street? And is there a large white building on the right?

When you enter the alley from the river side you pass the touts and there is a small street on the right and then a large white building? The left side is all restaurants. So the good place is on the right near the Coke machine and the crappy place on the left near the white building?

Only my opinion, but it is better to take a photo of the piece of offal than to argue with him. The police would almost certainly NEVER assist you in something like this. Better to take a quick photo, scram and post it here.

There used to be a pretty good place BJ place that would accept foreigners on the other side of the river and on the Hankyu Department store side, but it has closed. It seems like these shops don't close, but relocate.

Does anyone know where it is now?

[Richard Kopf]

thanks to those who pointed me in the right direction. i had a short amount of free time on christmas night in kyoto and took a cab to shijo dori and the corner of pontocho.

i scoped out the area and add my details below:

walking on the right side of the street along shijo dori from the river, turn right onto kiyomachi dori. kiyomachi is split into 2 sides by a narrow canal. take the left side for about 50 metres past some bars/restaurants. you can see the side of a red coke vending machine as you approach bj alley. continue past the row of vending machines and turn left into bj alley. it is very obvious with half a dozen touts in the doorways.

i was greeted by all of them, except at one place where there were two 'too cool' young touts chatting only with each other.

as i didn't want to seem indecisive, having walked past them all, i stopped at the last tout on the left. he quoted me 7000 for 40 mins. i pointed a a sign that said 6000 and he said that was for only 30 mins. good enough. i asked for a younger girl. he said 26. i agreed and paid him the money and was escorted up to the bar area, as described by others and ordered a beer.

mami came to sit with me. she said she was 26...maybe so. she was not ugly but quite chubby, although with pleasant breasts, which she let me touch and suck. she chatted with me in english as i touched her. i also touched her between the legs but i had to dig under the panties as she wouldn't remove them. she was happy to french kiss why was very pleasant and let me touch her but that was about it. after she had had 2 beers in a short time, i told her it was her turn to work. she asked for 7000. i told her i had already paid. she said i could have a handjob for that price even though the tout had offered bj for 6000. i tried hr a few more times and she just kept giggling and saying 'no'.

i stood to leave and said i was going to talk to the boss. she followed me out where i complained angrily to the tout and threatened to get the police. he started to sms on his phone so i cut my losses and moved off quickly in case trouble was on its way. i felt very confined in that place, too so i wouldn't recommend it as it's hard to get comfortable with the girland at least one of them is a scammer.

i walked around the block to cool down and tried again, at the first place on the right, as i didn't want tout number one to spot me, again. the price was 8000 but i had no problem there. i was shown to a booth and 2 mins later, a woman of around 30-33, with a good body and medium sized, firm breasts with huge nipples brought me a drink.

we didn't talk at all. she pulled her dress down over her boobs and removed the bra for me to play. when i reached below her dress, she stood to remove her panties. she let me play and made the right little moans and shudders. after a few mins of touching, she reached down for a condom but put it down before i even had the chance to exhale my first breath of disagreement.

she sucked and played until i was ready and i took her hand off me and pumped her head a little with my hand behind her head. i came in her mouth. she took every drop, spit into a kleenex and cleaned me off with a wet towel while i finished my drink. not the most exciting time of my life, and not the cheapest, but i would probably repeat, especially after wandering the streets perving at all those cute j-girls. it's not [CodeWord901]'s in bangkok, or a soi 6 bar in pattaya, but it was a pleasant end to christmas day.