Kansai: Kobe-Osaka-Nara-Kyoto

[Zcorps]

On my birthday my friends once took me to one of those places before. I don't remember the name of this place or the prices exactly, but here's how the system worked at that specific place.

THe girls would come around, and you could get a lap dance from them. If you liked them, you could go in the back with them and get a handy. It was a 10 minutes session. You could get some oral if the girl liked you enough, but basically the girls were only supposed to give you a HJ. Anything other than a HJ was between you and her.

At the end of the night the tencho asked if I wanted mochi-kaeri, literally take-out (He actually used that phrase). He never said I would get FS, but he did imply it. I paid him a fee, met the girl, headed to a hotel and did get FS. I don't remember how much time I had (or if there was in fact a time limit) because I was supposed to meet my friends soon after that.

So, to answer your question, there are a few of those places where you can get FS. A quick note, the girl told me that since I had stayed until closing that next time I should ask her directly to go home afterwards instead of the tencho. She'd charge me a lower rate, and she would make more money. I'm sure that's frowned upon by the establishment though.

Anyways, I can't remember the price, but I remember thinking that it would have been cheaper to call a nice Deli health. If I wanted FS, I'd go somewhere else, however if I ever happen to be in one of those places, I think it's pretty fun since you get to try out the girl, then get some FS from her if you like her.

Oh, and a note. You shouldn't go to these places and demand FS, that will only get us foreigners in trouble. Not that I'm accusing you of it.

Went to a Sekushii Kyaba once (where the girls come around and sit in your lap in rotation, you feel them up, suck their titties, etc. ) when I was in the waiting area just before having a tea or whatever some Japanese guys were also waiting (in a group.)

They were obviously pumped up and having a good time. They talked to me a bit and I remember saying (I was a little drunk) "Honban dame desho" to let them know I wasn't going to go in and act like an idiot.

They protested and said "Daijyobu daijyoubu. Dekiru zo" and nodding. This meant of course you could have FS with the girls there. And this wasn't even a HJ/BJ place, much less a FS place. I asked them again "Dekiru no?" and they kept sayind "dekiru dekiru" (Can you? Yes, yes.)

Dunno if they were just winding me up or what. I didn't try, but who knows. I have my doubts. Maybe they were first timers?

[Lion]

Went to a Sekushii Kyaba once (where the girls come around and sit in your lap in rotation, you feel th I asked them again "Dekiru no?" and they kept sayind "dekiru dekiru" (Can you? Yes, yes.)

Dunno if they were just winding me up or what. I didn't try, but who knows. I have my doubts. Maybe they were first timers?

Hard to really know. But being the Pink industry, it would be pretty likely a girl might allow take-out after hours. Even during hours, depending on if the ten-cho is looking to make a little and take a chance.

[Homer69]

I think you got my point. It does only take one or a very few incidents by foreigners to spoil it for the rest of us. Japanese customers can do whatever they want. They will never get turned down for being Japanese. This should be very obvious to anyone but I guess it's not.

If you're a foreigner, be aware that there is a double standard and your dumb ass behavior can ruin it for everyone else.

<snip>
By the same token, the girls generally have as much issue with pushy Japanese customers (who are generally more pushy in my experience), than foreigners; They're saying NO to Japanese customers as much as foreign customers. Of course, again, I see your point. It only takes 1 incident with a foreign customer to bring it all down but the J customers are always going to be accepted.

I guess it's based on reputation. Foreigners have to build a certain amount of trust with the shops they frequent. I'm pretty sure that even if a bad incident occured where I go, they may not stop me personally from going any more. I still don't have the balls to try and visit shops that state clearly on their site that foreigners aren't accepted but someday. Maybe.

[Ozboy]

Went to a Sekushii Kyaba once (where the girls come around and sit in your lap in rotation, you feel them up, suck their titties, etc. ) when I was in the waiting area just before having a tea or whatever some Japanese guys were also waiting (in a group.)

They were obviously pumped up and having a good time. They talked to me a bit and I remember saying (I was a little drunk) "Honban dame desho" to let them know I wasn't going to go in and act like an idiot.

They protested and said "Daijyobu daijyoubu. Dekiru zo" and nodding. This meant of course you could have FS with the girls there. And this wasn't even a HJ/BJ place, much less a FS place. I asked them again "Dekiru no?" and they kept sayind "dekiru dekiru" (Can you? Yes, yes.)

Dunno if they were just winding me up or what. I didn't try, but who knows. I have my doubts. Maybe they were first timers?

[Naniwan]

No, I totally get it, and I have to say I was surpised to see a guy in my regular Health getting serviced that spoke very little (if non at all) Japanese. How often are guys like that even accepted? I doubt it's common? I get it though, I'd hate to see myself suddenly getting rejected from my regular haunts.

In fact, I spoke to the girl I see often as we were walking to the hotel if it was really OK. The girl was asked before hand if she didn't mind accepting a foreigner that spoke very little Japanese. Apparently she was fine with it, so it's not like they're thrown in the deep end. Worryingly the guy did say to "No sex, right? " to me in the waiting room.

A word for sex and vagina etc? I take a similar (Japanese? ) approach. Yaru, asoko, etc. When I do ask for honban I ask using negative forms and even Osaka-ben to lighten it up, "yatte akan na? ", etc. Tbh though, I see the same girl now anyway but still I always ask if it's OK.

By the same token, the girls generally have as much issue with pushy Japanese customers (who are generally more pushy in my experience), than foreigners; They're saying NO to Japanese customers as much as foreign customers. Of course, again, I see your point. It only takes 1 incident with a foreign customer to bring it all down but the J customers are always going to be accepted.

I guess it's based on reputation. Foreigners have to build a certain amount of trust with the shops they frequent. I'm pretty sure that even if a bad incident occured where I go, they may not stop me personally from going any more. I still don't have the balls to try and visit shops that state clearly on their site that foreigners aren't accepted but someday. Maybe.

See my previous response. You guys missed my point. You are obviously conversational in Japanese and can respond and understand her responses. My target is a foreigner who goes in thinking he can just ask straight up with no real knowledge of the language or nuance of saving face. Those types are trouble, especially if they go in with an attitude. You have to remember that there are a ton of foreigners reading stuff here and think they can get by learning a few words or phrases while forcing the issue. It doesn't work that way. I'm not even sure if there is a word in Japanese for sexual intercourse. Is there? Maybe seikoi or something like that. Anyway, words like sexual intercourse and vagina are usually referred to via some nickname or nuance (asoko is my favorite). I just can't imagine a foreigner with little or no Japanese skills being able to do this without losing face.

I can imagine the conversation of the lady and the tencho after a session with a foreigner. Tencho asks curiously, "do desu ka? " Lady proceeds to tell him that the guy couldn't speak Japanese and was asking for sex. It is her prerogative to say this or keep quiet about it. The only thing the tencho is thinking is, "Oh brother, they are too much trouble, aren't they? "

Can you not see the plausibility of this? I've had many conversations with ladies and tencho. I know they don't like foreigners who are pushy and don't understand the rules. They have come out and told me as much. The ladies don't like to be put into situations where they have to say NO and lose face, too. Put yourself in their place.

Like I said, if you're conversational, you can pick up on the mood and try to decipher her feelings before you start breaching the line.

If you don't think that this is one of the principal reasons that we are cut off from many shops then I think you are delusional. I'll say it again. In general, foreigners are bad for business. If foreigners behaved knowing these things would not be so grim as they are now.

[Homer69]

See my previous response. You guys missed my point. You are obviously conversational in Japanese and can respond and understand her responses. My target is a foreigner who goes in thinking he can just ask straight up with no real knowledge of the language or nuance of saving face. Those types are trouble, especially if they go in with an attitude. You have to remember that there are a ton of foreigners reading stuff here and think they can get by learning a few words or phrases while forcing the issue. It doesn't work that way. I'm not even sure if there is a word in Japanese for sexual intercourse. Is there? Maybe seikoi or something like that. Anyway, words like sexual intercourse and vagina are usually referred to via some nickname or nuance (asoko is my favorite). I just can't imagine a foreigner with little or no Japanese skills being able to do this without losing face.

I can imagine the conversation of the lady and the tencho after a session with a foreigner. Tencho asks curiously, "do desu ka?" Lady proceeds to tell him that the guy couldn't speak Japanese and was asking for sex. It is her prerogative to say this or keep quiet about it. The only thing the tencho is thinking is, "Oh brother, they are too much trouble, aren't they?"

Can you not see the plausibility of this? I've had many conversations with ladies and tencho. I know they don't like foreigners who are pushy and don't understand the rules. They have come out and told me as much. The ladies don't like to be put into situations where they have to say NO and lose face, too. Put yourself in their place.

Like I said, if you're conversational, you can pick up on the mood and try to decipher her feelings before you start breaching the line.

If you don't think that this is one of the principal reasons that we are cut off from many shops then I think you are delusional. I'll say it again. In general, foreigners are bad for business. If foreigners behaved knowing these things would not be so grim as they are now.

I have to agree with ZCorps here. I will ask for FS every time but one no is enough. I've only been turned down twice in the few healths I visited well over 20-30 times now.

The best reply I've had was "well you don't get FS from the other girls, right? ", you can't answer that. I was utterly owned.

[Homer69]

I guess you don't understand what I'm trying to say. There are ways to ask for it and there are ways to ask for it. The way I'm talking about asking for it is directly which results in both people losing face when it's turned down. If you speak Japanese and have been here for awhile you know very well that you can ask for it without really asking for it. There are very subtle ways to do this through hint and innuendo. The problem I have is someone with very limited Japanese skills is going to read something here, learn the term "honban" and then ask directly. Did you ever stop to think how uncomfortable this would make a lady who has no intention of ever saying yes? She has no way to communicate with this guy to save face for him because he can't understand what she's saying. So, she just says, "NO" which is not the optimal way things are done in Japanese.

If you say you've had conversations with Japanese ladies about this then you must certainly know it's not OK to come out and say, "Is it OK if we screw?" which would be the equivalent of asking for honban directly. Even in English, you probably wouldn't ask this way if you were in an English-speaking country, but that's what it is if you only know "honban" and nothing else. You would ask if she has anything extra to offer or what sort things can she offer, etc. You give her a chance to say nothing else to offer. You might even ask her again, "honto desu ka?" in an innocent way so she can affirm her "NO" without losing face. But most foreigners with limited Japanese do not know how to dance around the edges and use metaphor and suggestion.

So, you misunderstood me. I am only talking about direct and pushy encounters. It's very appropriate to ask indirectly but I personally feel that asking so directly is improper.

Have you ever had a discussion with these ladies about the subject of men asking for FS? Almost every girl will tell you that customers REGULARLY ask for FS. I know you're all about obeying everything, keeping your head down, and knowing that not causing trouble will get you far. To an extent, it's true. I make sure to do nothing but show respect to employees and the girls. I'm never pushy, and overall everything works great for me. As foreigners we have to make sure we don't hurt our image as a whole in hopes of continuing to get service from this industry.

However, whether you like it or not, asking for FS is not overstepping any boundaries. Now, simply sticking your meatstick inside the girl, I highly advocate AGAINST that. You should always be sure it's ok with the girl before you proceed. My rule is to ask, one or twice, and if I get a no, then I stop. The worst that will happen is the girl says no and continues with what she was doing. No girl will immediately stop what they're doing and make you leave because you asked. Most won't even care you asked, there are many girls I've met who have even given me their contact details after they refused FS. Being pushy and demanding FS is what will get us in trouble though. All shops have a no FS policy, but most will turn a blind eye towards this, as long as you're not demanding FS. I can't tell you how many well established healths and deli healths I've been to that told me no less than 5 times that FS was illegal, however soon after meeting the girl I was offered FS.

It's not just the random rule breaking macho foreigners who doesn't understand the social norms that break this particular rule too. Many Japanese men will do it too. Ask the girls, the more popular girls will tell you most every man will ask for it, they'll usually follow up that they'll only do it for their special customers though. Regardless of how many special customers the girl has, the point is that FS at this point is generally left up to the girl. Hell, whether or not the girl will service you is her choice too.

Getting back on track, I don't know who your friends are Homer, but the acquaintances I know who frequent fuuzoku shops were the ones who suggested I ask girls from non-fs places for FS. I'm sure there are many Japanese customers who, like you, follow the rules no matter where they go, but there are many Japanese customers who ask for FS. Yes, we're not Japanese, we're foreigners, but we're also customers.

[Naniwan]

I have to agree with ZCorps here. I will ask for FS every time but one no is enough. I've only been turned down twice in the few healths I visited well over 20-30 times now.

The best reply I've had was "well you don't get FS from the other girls, right? ", you can't answer that. I was utterly owned.

[Zcorps]

Have you ever had a discussion with these ladies about the subject of men asking for FS? Almost every girl will tell you that customers REGULARLY ask for FS. I know you're all about obeying everything, keeping your head down, and knowing that not causing trouble will get you far. To an extent, it's true. I make sure to do nothing but show respect to employees and the girls. I'm never pushy, and overall everything works great for me. As foreigners we have to make sure we don't hurt our image as a whole in hopes of continuing to get service from this industry.

However, whether you like it or not, asking for FS is not overstepping any boundaries. Now, simply sticking your meatstick inside the girl, I highly advocate AGAINST that. You should always be sure it's ok with the girl before you proceed. My rule is to ask, one or twice, and if I get a no, then I stop. The worst that will happen is the girl says no and continues with what she was doing. No girl will immediately stop what they're doing and make you leave because you asked. Most won't even care you asked, there are many girls I've met who have even given me their contact details after they refused FS. Being pushy and demanding FS is what will get us in trouble though. All shops have a no FS policy, but most will turn a blind eye towards this, as long as you're not demanding FS. I can't tell you how many well established healths and deli healths I've been to that told me no less than 5 times that FS was illegal, however soon after meeting the girl I was offered FS.

It's not just the random rule breaking macho foreigners who doesn't understand the social norms that break this particular rule too. Many Japanese men will do it too. Ask the girls, the more popular girls will tell you most every man will ask for it, they'll usually follow up that they'll only do it for their special customers though. Regardless of how many special customers the girl has, the point is that FS at this point is generally left up to the girl. Hell, whether or not the girl will service you is her choice too.

Getting back on track, I don't know who your friends are Homer, but the acquaintances I know who frequent fuuzoku shops were the ones who suggested I ask girls from non-fs places for FS. I'm sure there are many Japanese customers who, like you, follow the rules no matter where they go, but there are many Japanese customers who ask for FS. Yes, we're not Japanese, we're foreigners, but we're also customers.

I believe most of the foreigners here with bad attitudes either don't understand the social norms or are, as you say, reverting back to the norms in their home country.

I don't think I've ever asked a lady for FS until she started sending smoke signals to that effect. It's actually never crossed my mind to ask. I don't even like asking them if I can put my finger in unless I know it's on the menu. I wouldn't do it because I know how much Japanese people find saying no to be distasteful. I think many foreigners don't understand this concept. I've really wanted FS from some ladies but unless you're in the old days of NK, FS at a legitimate place is definitely bad for the lady, bad for the shop and bad for you because it is technically illegal for licensed shops.

Being a macho man is not really the way Japanese men operate. If you come in acting macho it's just not worth the trouble to keep you in line. I've heard this from tencho. Often, they look at your appearance, body language, grooming and Japanese skills (if you can speak in polite Japanese or not) and make a quick call right at the door. I've had much better luck when I wear a suit as opposed to casual clothes.

I agree about the Vegas idea. They should have a book, I think it's called the Griffin Book or something like that in Vegas.

[Homer69]

i believe most of the foreigners here with bad attitudes either don't understand the social norms or are, as you say, reverting back to the norms in their home country.

i don't think i've ever asked a lady for fs until she started sending smoke signals to that effect. it's actually never crossed my mind to ask. i don't even like asking them if i can put my finger in unless i know it's on the menu. i wouldn't do it because i know how much japanese people find saying no to be distasteful. i think many foreigners don't understand this concept. i've really wanted fs from some ladies but unless you're in the old days of nk, fs at a legitimate place is definitely bad for the lady, bad for the shop and bad for you because it is technically illegal for licensed shops.

being a macho man is not really the way japanese men operate. if you come in acting macho it's just not worth the trouble to keep you in line. i've heard this from tencho. often, they look at your appearance, body language, grooming and japanese skills (if you can speak in polite japanese or not) and make a quick call right at the door. i've had much better luck when i wear a suit as opposed to casual clothes.

i agree about the vegas idea. they should have a book, i think it's called the griffin book or something like that in vegas.

good points from both posters here. it's definitely true that collectively, we are not the best for business compared to japanese customers. on the other hand in japan every customer is valuable, and some foreigners make great customers while others do spoil it for the rest.

for every foreigner that generally won't break the rules, there's going to be a disproportionate number of us who will try to break the rules every single time. an alarming number of us even admit to it in the various threads, and i'm not trying to judge anybody but only to point out that these stereotypes are not simply spurious assumptions without experience by shopowners. it doesn't make what they do right, i'm saying it's usually not as simple as somebody being malicious.

what's malicious is a few people thinking the rules don't matter and it's okay to harass every girl every time. morally speaking that's even more reprehensible, trying to f**k someone who's trying to give you only a hj/bj and hoping they'll let you. i understand that's what you want, but you don't have a moral leg to stand on here. for all the legit girls saying no, this is the number on thing most of them hate. but i don't blame you - this is probably just a habit of people from countries where handjobs/blowjobs are illegal and and you naturally assume every woman is there to break the law and the rules are just a wink wink facade. no.

i can't speak for your specific experiences, but pulling the customer into a side room is standard in some shops. your case may well be different, but japanese customers don't like to see other japanese customers either. me neither.

in all my times speaking with shopowners, the ability to understand rules and obey them are the dominant issues. most shops i go to post warnings about not [CodeWord125] the workers because you'll go to jail and guess what, they're written only in japanese. they reserve the right to refuse someone who is too drunk and will throw them out to that end, but take a foreigner instead. i'm pretty sure they have nothing personal against alcoholism either.

while racism is a real problem, it works both ways and is more about expediency than anything else. to illustrate, in most non-mongering establishments they actually give extra service to foreigners. it's also racist, in our favor. i'll use a business example where they will quickly show a foreign businessman a price sheet but will not for a japanese businessman until he can prove he's prepared to buy. in another industry, they give guided tours of a pearl farm and if you're a foreigner (korean, australian, singaporean, etc..) they will let you haggle, but they will not let you haggle if you are japanese. i have a lot more examples as a consumer but you get the idea. there are cases of racism both ways (unlike most countries where they are simply racist against me), and in most cases in japan this is also not out of malice, simply a matter of putting business above racial morals. can't say that about my home country, and while i love it it's ironically where most of the people crying racism come from.

my whole point is not to take it personally, even if it's against moral principles. morals which ironically the majority of us fail to adhere to ourselves in terms of following shop rules or dealing with women.

i know if i ran an adult business where rules mattered, i wouldn't want a good number of foreigner customers either. but i'd take them because most are good customers and the problems can be solved simply by making sure they understand the rules. if someone simply refuses to obey rules and harasses my employees for sex without fail, i'll simply phonemail cctv footage of him to other stores rather than ban all foreigners. same as vegas - get kicked out of one casino, get kicked out of all. that's what japan should do.

[Naniwan]

Saw a fellow gaikokujin monger in Freajia today that said he found Freajia from a forum (was it you? .), I didn't have much time to speak to him since he was out the door but he did mention he didn't speak (or at least read) Japanese and still got serviced! Awesome! He also mentioned it was his first time. He asked me if I was a regular and we both laughed. In fact I am I guess.

[Traveler X]

good points from both posters here. it's definitely true that collectively, we are not the best for business compared to japanese customers. on the other hand in japan every customer is valuable, and some foreigners make great customers while others do spoil it for the rest.

for every foreigner that generally won't break the rules, there's going to be a disproportionate number of us who will try to break the rules every single time. an alarming number of us even admit to it in the various threads, and i'm not trying to judge anybody but only to point out that these stereotypes are not simply spurious assumptions without experience by shopowners. it doesn't make what they do right, i'm saying it's usually not as simple as somebody being malicious.

what's malicious is a few people thinking the rules don't matter and it's okay to harass every girl every time. morally speaking that's even more reprehensible, trying to f**k someone who's trying to give you only a hj/bj and hoping they'll let you. i understand that's what you want, but you don't have a moral leg to stand on here. for all the legit girls saying no, this is the number on thing most of them hate. but i don't blame you - this is probably just a habit of people from countries where handjobs/blowjobs are illegal and and you naturally assume every woman is there to break the law and the rules are just a wink wink facade. no.

i can't speak for your specific experiences, but pulling the customer into a side room is standard in some shops. your case may well be different, but japanese customers don't like to see other japanese customers either. me neither.

in all my times speaking with shopowners, the ability to understand rules and obey them are the dominant issues. most shops i go to post warnings about not [CodeWord125] the workers because you'll go to jail and guess what, they're written only in japanese. they reserve the right to refuse someone who is too drunk and will throw them out to that end, but take a foreigner instead. i'm pretty sure they have nothing personal against alcoholism either.

while racism is a real problem, it works both ways and is more about expediency than anything else. to illustrate, in most non-mongering establishments they actually give extra service to foreigners. it's also racist, in our favor. i'll use a business example where they will quickly show a foreign businessman a price sheet but will not for a japanese businessman until he can prove he's prepared to buy. in another industry, they give guided tours of a pearl farm and if you're a foreigner (korean, australian, singaporean, etc..) they will let you haggle, but they will not let you haggle if you are japanese. i have a lot more examples as a consumer but you get the idea. there are cases of racism both ways (unlike most countries where they are simply racist against me), and in most cases in japan this is also not out of malice, simply a matter of putting business above racial morals. can't say that about my home country, and while i love it it's ironically where most of the people crying racism come from.

my whole point is not to take it personally, even if it's against moral principles. morals which ironically the majority of us fail to adhere to ourselves in terms of following shop rules or dealing with women.

i know if i ran an adult business where rules mattered, i wouldn't want a good number of foreigner customers either. but i'd take them because most are good customers and the problems can be solved simply by making sure they understand the rules. if someone simply refuses to obey rules and harasses my employees for sex without fail, i'll simply phonemail cctv footage of him to other stores rather than ban all foreigners. same as vegas - get kicked out of one casino, get kicked out of all. that's what japan should do.

i think you're missing one simple fact. like it or not, foreigners are bad for business. you can't fight this. it's part of the japanese dna and there is nothing that is going to change this. if you can't accept this simple fact then you're not understanding where i am coming from. homer

[Homer69]

The two places where it happened aren't there anymore. One was in Namba and the other was in Nishi-Kawaguchi north of Tokyo. This happened three and five years ago, respectively. As you might know, NK has been basically shutdown. The place in Namba has been converted into a Chinese esute.

Out of interest, which Healths whisked you off to the side room (if you don't mind sharing that is). I've called a lot up that said, on the day, if you come and there's a girl that doesn't mind foreigners, you'll be serviced, but haven't been as of yet. I'll dig the e-mail out for that one to let people know also.

[Jaycam]

Yoko is back in the biz, I guess money is tight. I emailed he CL add and it was her. All I can vouch for is she really is Japanese and her ad is not spam. Cheers

http://osaka.craigslist.jp/ers/1411694222.html

P.S. Post some pics if you see her

[Naniwan]

Out of interest, which Healths whisked you off to the side room (if you don't mind sharing that is). I've called a lot up that said, on the day, if you come and there's a girl that doesn't mind foreigners, you'll be serviced, but haven't been as of yet. I'll dig the e-mail out for that one to let people know also.

I think you're missing one simple fact. Like it or not, foreigners are bad for business. You can't fight this. It's part of the Japanese DNA and there is nothing that is going to change this. If you can't accept this simple fact then you're not understanding where I am coming from.

I'm not bending over backwards or taking shit from any tencho by pretending to be mistaken and bowing out for another time. I am just extending professional courtesy to make his or her job easier. A bunch of Japanese, regardless of how polite and dismissive they are will be made extremely uncomfortable to be in the presence of a foreigner. We're all there for the same reason. Everything is about saving face and this sort of thing is appreciated and avoids any chance of the tencho losing face with his customers.

I've been at healths before where I was quickly whisked into a side room. I didn't know what was going on at first but it became clear they wanted my business but didn't want me looking at the book in the lobby area. When I explained I understood what was going on they apologized profusely and were glad that I understood.

I don't see this sort of compensatory behavior as being anything but courteous and making the best of a less than optimal situation. If you've ever been to high end soaps they do this, even with Japanese customers. They'll hold you in your room for a few minutes until the halls and lobby clears so no customer ever needs to see another customer.

Regarding complaining about bad service, there is a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way is to be direct about it. The right way is to be vague and allow for saving face. That's just my opinion. I never complain about bad service, I just don't go back.

homer