Mombasa

[LustyHombre]

So what did you set out to prove? Was it that malayas are as susceptible to deception and lies as are regular civilians, and that they are often willing to accept you at face value. Until proven otherwise?

I find it strange that you would sacrifice 7 days of your precious vacation time to play mind games with WG's. It seems you derived a good deal of satisfaction out of tricking them into giving up their wares for free.

I take it, from the way how you express yourself, that you are a well educated person. Does it not offend your sense of fairplay to engage in a battle of wits with young girls who are most likely from a socially disadvantaged background and have never been taught how to reason logically. Shame on you!

[Cheupe]

It's just basic econ 101. She has what you want. She wants to get as much as she can for it. You want to get it as cheaply as possible.

In Kenya, no mzungu can manage "as cheap as possible". There are girls doing it for 20/=! But someone might find himself looking for a gas mask first.

[Woef Woef]

You are having a laugh, aren't you. So it's Willyboy and you who are actually trying to eradicate prostitution by paying less, so that other choices of job can become more attractive? Well, that's by far the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard

No, I always want to pay the right price for the right product / service. I guess you don't waste dollars on most other products / services you buy so why you are willing to do it on hookers?

Seems you have a moral issue with the fact that your over-paying creates more prostitution in Kenya. Or you saw your mongering and over-spending as an act of helping those poor African women?

[Naughty]

It's just basic econ 101. She has what you want. She wants to get as much as she can for it. You want to get it as cheaply as possible. You negotiate. If you reach a mutually satisfactory agreement, the transaction is consumated. If not, negotiations continue or are broken off and both parties seek other business partners.

Everything else is just posturing and swag or bribery. Chat. Reach a compromise. Go do the deed!

[Bareback Jack]

What do you think would be the probability that your young daughters are going to end up doing? Working in a hotel? Or spreading legs?

I don't know and I don't really care. I'm certainly not influencing my children's choice of job. Nobody is forced to choose the path of more money. It's a conscious decision.

Customers who are consistently overpaying are a very important factor why prostitution keeps growing in Kenya. It's not the only factor off course, but it's a very important one. And it is one which we ourselves create

You are having a laugh, aren't you. So it's Willyboy and you who are actually trying to eradicate prostitution by paying less, so that other choices of job can become more attractive? Well, that's by far the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard

[Bareback Jack]

Looking for these two very different women I am sure we could never agree on what price we pay.

Exactly! We possibly wouldn't even agree on who is beautiful or lovely for that matter and we don't need to. You're happy the way you're rolling and I'm happy my way.

[Cheupe]

Using "average income" is misleading if it is true bottom 80% possess 6% of the wealth in Kenya (15% in USA?) In such a hopelessly schewed picture, the more realistic measure is the median. Or mode, which will of course refelct a very squalid state of affairs especially in Kenya. The girls are very poor. Am sure the "Average" income figure lies somewhere in the top 10th centile group.

And the Mzungu who can afford a holiday in Kenya are probably on the favourable side of their native median. The girls know this, so I would expect them to haggle. Who wouldn't?

[Pete Benetar]

I saw your other post where you quoted statistics from sources like IMF, CIA Factbook etc. You seem to like those statistics a lot. I'm sure you are aware that a simple arithmetic average isn't a very representative measure. We could take a deeper dive into stochastic calculus but that would surely be beyond the scope of this topic. However, even in the US it's a pretty irrelevant number as it doesn't even account for regional differences.

Anyway, we can go on about this forever and end up with no conclusion at all

Stochastic calc? LOL, that's why I made the original qualifier with respect to using price parity stats etc. These numbers and my simple arithmetic are no substitute for what real people are living on. I've posted pics of the girl I brought home with me from Accra on a Study visa. Most comments on the Ghana board appreciated this woman's beauty. I have pretty high standards physically and I would rate her as an "8", but her non physical attributes (intellect, honesty, personality, libido, values) take her solidly into the 9-10 range in my book.

This woman from Accra was thriving on 100-150 USD per month and I am reasonably certain NBO or MBSA are not substantially more expensive than ACC if at all. But she's not a professional working girl and never conducted herself as such.

So your last comment is the only thing I think I could possibly agree with you on, as we are interested in much different partners. Personally I do not travel to 3rd world nations to support a woman there living in a 1st or developed world lifestyle. I seek a lovely woman who is content with her station in life and is happy to have male companionship and to be treated lavishly. Gifting and whoring are optional, but of course you want to be generous with a woman you befriend and care for.

You suggest we should be making sex a highly profitable enterprise whereby the woman not only exceeds the national per capita by a large multiple but also profits (e. G."barely breaks even" on 20, 000 shilling per month?) such that she might support her family, friends or perhaps invest her profits in a well balanced investment portfolio for retirement.

Looking for these two very different women I am sure we could never agree on what price we pay.

[Willyboy]

I saw your other post where you quoted statistics from sources like IMF, CIA Factbook etc. You seem to like those statistics a lot. I'm sure you are aware that a simple arithmetic average isn't a very representative measure. We could take a deeper dive into stochastic calculus but that would surely be beyond the scope of this topic. However, even in the US it's a pretty irrelevant number as it doesn't even account for regional differences.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, CIA for instances quotes GDP per capita at $48, 500 which should not be mistaken for income. If you were to arrive at average income numbers in Kenya, or anywhere in Africa for that matter, it would be mostly guess work. Many workers are in unofficial employment, without registration and tax payments and small businesses are allowed to pay a 2% turn over tax on what they file as turnover. KRA has not yet developed the capabilities of the IRS or HMRC for that matter.

If you have asked around, you will of course hear what people tell you they earn, but have you really ever seen a payslip here in Kenya? Most waiters will tell you they work for 6k, room maids for 7k, etc. If you speak or know senior management in hotels, they will tell you another, quite different story. The truth might be somewhere in between. Earnings for police officers have been published officially. Police and army are usually among the lowest earners in almost every country. If you take that for instance you get a much better idea of what the earnings at the lower bracket of unskilled workers are. The official figure of the government for a minimum wage employment for a house girl for instance is 7, 000.

We all know that these wages are too low to make a living. Police spice up their wages by open bribery and most employees have some kind of money generating mini business on the side. If you really care to take a look around you will get to understand real prices as well. The cheapest 1-bed home with electricity for example somewhere deep inside the non-tourist side of Mtwapa goes for about 4k per month, on the other side you will pay a minimum of 10k, hardly something someone could afford from a 5k / month income.

So, let's add together: 10k for a bedsit. 1k for electricity, another 6k to bring food on the table, clothes and hair salon (for women) add another 3k, so even the most cost conscious babe will need at least 20k a month to barely break even.

A while ago I spoke to one of those mzungu "Marondo". He lived here in Kenya off a 800€/month pension. He had a small flat for about 12k in Mtwapa. He said he found it hard to get around with the money. According to his own account he had to cut down on girls and would afford himself only 2-3 girls per week for short time (1k) , as otherwise he wouldn't be able to maintain himself, given the real cost of living.

If you believe that 5, 000 is the average income in Mombasa or Nairobi, you will also believe in Santa Claus. Do you really think the dramatic expansion of brands like Nakumatt, Tukys etc has been fuelled by tourists only? Far away from the truth.

Anyway, we can go on about this forever and end up with no conclusion at all

I will not giving food for persons renting UNDER 5k / month. In Mtwapa. Very nice appartments for 8k / month. (just after kendas, new appartments) yes, for kenya kimbo is 800 euro. Small money to survivel in mtwapa. Special if this guys drinking like fouls in cheers. Likoli (after ferry) staying +1000 rooms (4 wals +bed) for 1000ksh / month.

I now waiter in one hotel in town. 8k salery (having one not working wife end 2 kids) hi survivel from this money)

[Cheupe]

Average per capita income. Rather tricky. In Kenya, bottom 80% have 6% of net worth, and in the USA it is about 15% So in such ridiculously skewed situations, we should probably think median or mode. Which is much more "squalid" than artificial "average". These girls are poor. Forget average.

Just that, someone coming from the first world just looking to get laid, or on business trip is likely to be coming from the favourable side of the median. He will more likely run into women who belong to the same side of the native median. They have an idea, so they will inevitably haggle.

[Willyboy]

Thanks for the explanation you give about your opinion on prostitution payment in kenya. I can not explain better in my cramped english. But this is what I've always wanted to write.

[Bareback Jack]

But I think a multiple of 5 or 10 times the average per capita income is not too shabby, no?

I saw your other post where you quoted statistics from sources like IMF, CIA Factbook etc. You seem to like those statistics a lot. I'm sure you are aware that a simple arithmetic average isn't a very representative measure. We could take a deeper dive into stochastic calculus but that would surely be beyond the scope of this topic. However, even in the US it's a pretty irrelevant number as it doesn't even account for regional differences.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, CIA for instances quotes GDP per capita at $48, 500 which should not be mistaken for income. If you were to arrive at average income numbers in Kenya, or anywhere in Africa for that matter, it would be mostly guess work. Many workers are in unofficial employment, without registration and tax payments and small businesses are allowed to pay a 2% turn over tax on what they file as turnover. KRA has not yet developed the capabilities of the IRS or HMRC for that matter.

If you have asked around, you will of course hear what people tell you they earn, but have you really ever seen a payslip here in Kenya? Most waiters will tell you they work for 6k, room maids for 7k, etc. If you speak or know senior management in hotels, they will tell you another, quite different story. The truth might be somewhere in between. Earnings for police officers have been published officially. Police and army are usually among the lowest earners in almost every country. If you take that for instance you get a much better idea of what the earnings at the lower bracket of unskilled workers are. The official figure of the government for a minimum wage employment for a house girl for instance is 7, 000.

We all know that these wages are too low to make a living. Police spice up their wages by open bribery and most employees have some kind of money generating mini business on the side. If you really care to take a look around you will get to understand real prices as well. The cheapest 1-bed home with electricity for example somewhere deep inside the non-tourist side of Mtwapa goes for about 4k per month, on the other side you will pay a minimum of 10k, hardly something someone could afford from a 5k / month income.

So, let's add together: 10k for a bedsit. 1k for electricity, another 6k to bring food on the table, clothes and hair salon (for women) add another 3k, so even the most cost conscious babe will need at least 20k a month to barely break even.

A while ago I spoke to one of those mzungu "Marondo". He lived here in Kenya off a 800€/month pension. He had a small flat for about 12k in Mtwapa. He said he found it hard to get around with the money. According to his own account he had to cut down on girls and would afford himself only 2-3 girls per week for short time (1k) , as otherwise he wouldn't be able to maintain himself, given the real cost of living.

If you believe that 5, 000 is the average income in Mombasa or Nairobi, you will also believe in Santa Claus. Do you really think the dramatic expansion of brands like Nakumatt, Tukys etc has been fuelled by tourists only? Far away from the truth.

Anyway, we can go on about this forever and end up with no conclusion at all

[Wenzman]

So, where exactly Mr. Wenzman has anyone said anything about "do-good"? No one here claims to have noble intentions as far as I can see. It is only that a few individuals like myself have voiced the opinion that prevailing market rate is nothing more but an orientation guideline. Treating everyone the same doesn't seem to be logical to me. A standard rate awards the same to a less attractive or overweight woman as to a very attractive woman in perfect shape. Proof that not all women fall into the second category can be seen plenty in the photo gallery.

For arguments sake, you might say that your gold member doesn't know the difference when it's inside the punany. Then, of course it would be money wasted. However, if the packaging is important, which after all is again a matter of personal preference, then it seems to be logical to award a better rate to an individual that offers the overall better package in the eyes of the client.

Welcome to kindergarten.

Incidentally, yesterday I have paid in a German FKK Club for 30 min full sex with a beautifull lady by your standards 50 €. Hopefully that was enough for you. Get a life and go *ucking

[Pete Benetar]

True, but why the comparison to average income? Where in this world would a prostitute work for average income and why should she?

First, I'm not referring to professionals. Second, the 5, 000 shilling number was based on ONE week and I did not seriously propose that as a sole source of income for an able bodied woman looking to support herself. If you include 4-5 weeks that would come out to over 20, 000 shilling per month so I am guessing that would still be much more than the AVERAGE kenyan earns.

Moreover if you go by what most, myself included, would consider fair based on present exchange rates and national income numbers providing 1000-2000 a day then you can multiply 1500 shilling by 6 day work weeks. If she "worked" full time at that rate, you are closer to 40, 000 shilling per month.

I doubt anyone in this thread who spent a week with a lovely and genuinely liked her would gift her with a scant 5000 shilling. So I am not in any way recommending 5000 shilling per month for a lovely woman working for average pay. But I think a multiple of 5 or 10 times the average per capita income is not too shabby, no?

[Woef Woef]

True, but why the comparison to average income? Where in this world would a prostitute work for average income and why should she?

A comparison towards the average income is a good comparison in my humble opinion. Imagine the average income of the average prostitute in a specific country to be much higher than the average income of a worker?

Normally this will lead to a dysfunctional society. Cause why should you work in a hotel for a month, if you can earn the same money by hanging around at bars and spreading your legs LT twice a month?

So one would assume that this would lead to a high (er) amount of prostitutes (be it pro, non-pro or however you categorize them). It's all supply-demand in the end in fact.

I don't know if demand is increasing in Kenya so for the hypothesis I will assume it stays equal. In that case if supply goes up, then normally prices should drop. However there is an alternative scenario in fact. It's also possible that the supply side will decide to work less per average worker but for the same price.

Let's compare the situation to brothels in red-light districts in Europe. I think in most West-European countries the rate a girl has to pay per shift of 12 hours is about 200 euro rent for the window. Let's say the average cost for a fuck is about 50 euro. This means that she will have to finish 4 customers a day to break-even.

The average working girl behind windows will make about 1500-2000 euro a month after rent of her working place and taxes. This is is higher than the average income but not much, so comparable.

As most of these girls are foreigners, why would they suffer this much only to make some more than the average income? Because they often send euro money home where the value of it in the destination country is much higher than at the source. And mostly the first years they have all-most nothing left in fact, as they need to pay of their pimps who brought them to Europe (cost about 25-50K euro) which equals about 1-2 years of work. After that they are break-even. That's also often the time when you see them stop working behind windows in fact, or working less, and start to live full-time on European social security benefits which is about 1000-1200 euro a month.

Now we are not talking about high-class prostitutes here. The same is the case in MBA, Mtwapa, etc. And we are talking in general. An individual can off course always be an exception, but that we can consider as statistical noise.

So the average windows prostitute in Europe makes max. 25% more than the average income for a lot of hard work. While the Mtwapa street prostitute can make much more than the average income while her working conditions are easier and she will have to do less fucks for more money in relative numbers.

The only conclusion from a socio-economical perspective is that prices are too high there which creates a high probability that the average kenyan young woman will prostitute herself.

I don't know where you live. But I assume it's a rich country towards Kenya. Now imagine from next month social security becomes less, unemployment increases and on top of that thousands of foreigners enter your country for sex holidays throwing a multitude of the average income to pussy. What do you think would be the probability that your young daughters are going to end up doing? Working in a hotel? Or spreading legs?

BTW this scenario was basically what happened in world war II at the top of the german power. It created thousands of white young prostitutes to german soldiers.

Customers who are consistently overpaying are a very important factor why prostitution keeps growing in Kenya. It's not the only factor off course, but it's a very important one. And it is one which we ourselves create.

That's why I agree with Willyboy, etc. In these conditions there is a lot of room for getting what you want at lower prices also. And mostly that will occur later in the night or with fixed contacts, when the heavy spenders are already sleeping like a bear after they spread their seeds.