Bangkok Reports

[Phordphan]

Well yes and no (to the best of my knowledge). If those pictures are on a laptop or digital camera it depends on which court circuit you live in. For example, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (covering California, Oregon, and Washington among other states) recently ruled to search a digital device customs and immigration needed "reasonable suspicion" they would find something criminal. Previously, Custom and Immigration officers in the states covered by the Ninth Circuit had been one of the most aggressive in conducting arbitrary searches of digital devices without any justification. Certain other Circuits have ruled customs and immigration has unbridled discretion to search though a digital device. I'm unaware of any ruling from the Supreme Court on this so right now the law varies at different ports of entry (unless I am incorrect that the Supreme Court hasn't ruled recently on this issue).

Yes, the Supremes ruled on this in January and again in March. To be exact, they denied the appeal, letting stand the 9th Circus' ruling. They sort of carved out this doctrine of "reasonable suspicion. " Basically CBP can do as the please once they have "reasonable suspicion. " Of course, much like "probable cause," I suspect "reasonable suspicion" can be manufactured at will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Cotterman

The above is a good summary of the rulings in question. It now appears that this how the law is to be applied at all ports of entry.

[Goatscrot]

Extending such "courtesies" to people of all races is by no means a colonial mentality, but expecting reciprocation and judging them for non reciprocation is. That is what I was referring to. I wasn't bought up in the Western construct and there was no influence of the western acceptance mentality in my childhood but it was always embedded in me that we should extend such traits to all people, regardless of race, ethnicity, etc. If this is a Western construct then it may have grown from the mass immigration from third world to first world countries. The practice of tolerance, but is tolerance really acceptance? A lot of first world countries face very grueling social and race issues. I guess that's for another day, another time.

BTW, I am with you on the Islam thing. There is no way anyone, even muslim women can convince me that they actually like being covered head to toe with a metal plate to cover their face.

Actually not. Most of it has its root in European philosophy of the 18th century. Folks like Rousseau. Yes, Western nations face race issues, but discrimination in Western nations is illegal. Take Malaysia, discrimination is not only tolerated, it is law.

Tolerance is not acceptance. Not in any sense. And in fact, it should not be. I would never preach acceptance.

[Goatscrot]

Really. Then I must be mistaken in tuning that Whiteheads and Neo-Nazis are a Islamic phenomenon No one is debating that treating women like property is prevalent in a lot of Middle Eastern countries. But then you have similar stuff playing out in a lot of western countries as well in the garb of trafficking etc It's unfair to paint a whole race / religion in one color.

And BTW I am not from a Middle East country and nor I am Muslim. In case you were wondering.

Um, well neo-nazis are not endorsed by the gov. No are there Neo-Nazi Republics as there are Islamic Republics where the oppression of women is law.

Similar stuff? Again, trafficking is illegal. Unfair? Not at all. It is their doctrine. When people are free to leave the religion as they please and women are allowed to dress as they want then your argument will have some merit.

[Lion55]

Hope I'm posting this question in the right place.

I have an overnight layover in Bangkok in December, staying at a hotel in Lat Krabang near the Paseo Mall. Any action there (lady bar with possibility of take-out or massage w / extras) or is it necessary to go into the city?

Any advice from experienced Bangkok mongers would be most appreciated.

[LA Guy 5]

Has anybody here actually had their computer or camera searched going through Thai, PI, Singapore, EU, British, Canada or US Customs or are we just talking theoretically?

Yes, they once went through my video tapes of Bangkok and am sure they were disappointed when all they saw was the river and some temples. And they did this after seeing conference materials from a major professional conference showing that I had attended it for a few days. I also was carrying a lot of xrays showing I had sought medical care in Bangkok. And they looked through my hard copy pictures taken in Japan of some meetings I had (in suit and tie) with other businesspeople. So after seeing all this I was pretty much the last person you would expect them to scrutinize, along with my digital data, other than that I had been in Asia. But being male and returning from Asia was sufficient to trigger this invasion of privacy.

A friend of mine had his computer scanned in San Francisco and he told me they did this to every unaccompanied male with a computer or camera on his flight from Asia.

Laptop searches in particular became such a serious problem some business trade organizations lobbied Congress to stop this as it potentially exposed their trade secrets as well as attorney / client communications. As a result Mary Cantwell (a former CEO) and Russ Feingold introduced legislation in the Senate to require at least reasonable suspicion (the same standard the Ninth Circuit eventually adopted) before such a search could be conducted at the border. Their bill did not pass. Many companies forbade their employees from travelling overseas with laptops that had trade secrets stored on them owing to the practices at the US Border.

No, the problem was far from theoretical and I'm sure still exists to some extent at certain ports of entry. However, all the above examples occurred during the Bush administration. I suspect things may have eased a bit since then, but other than the Ninth Circuit decision I'm not sure about this.

One other thing. Customs and Immigration had computers with powerful forensic software on them to scan laptops with and likely still does. This often was done in a back room while the arriving traveler was asked to wait. So I'm not sure about the 1 in 10 million chance of them finding something.

[Member #4698]

Has anybody here actually had their computer or camera searched going through Thai, PI, Singapore, EU, UK, Canada or US Customs or are we just talking theoretically? In all my travels I have never experienced this invasion of my privacy. And since I do not have anything to do with under (umbrella) age girls I give off a natural not very concerned attitude when questioned by a customs official upon returning to my beloved country. I have done nothing wrong. The typical short conversation goes something like this: Agent- "Were did you go? Have you been on a farm or near any livestock" ME- "I went scuba diving and surfing in Thailand and the Philippines. I did not go to any farms" Agent- "Welcome back to the USA." ME- "Thanks, it is good to be home." End of story.

It wasn't always this way. Back in my wild younger days I spent a lot of time travelling around South America for long periods with long hair and a taste for certain illegal substances, yada yada yada, I liked the girls too, but they were not my main focus. Back then Miami customs officials used to give me a hard time. I fit a certain drug profile and they nearly always searched my suitcase. All that nonsense stopped after I reached a certain age, cut my hair short and started looking more "respectable." What a joke!

But yeah to be extra safe or to put your mind at ease, put your trip photos on the cloud or encrypt a portion of your hard drive. The odds of a custom official checking your data that deep is 1 in 10 million.

[LA Guy 5]

Oh, and checking for pictures, when entering the USA, is most definitely NOT illegal. There are court rulings upholding this. Don't make ignorant statements such as this before you know the facts. It may, or may not, be legal in Europe, but it is most certainly permitted when entering the USA.

Well yes and no (to the best of my knowledge). If those pictures are on a laptop or digital camera it depends on which court circuit you live in. For example, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (covering California, Oregon, and Washington among other states) recently ruled to search a digital device customs and immigration needed "reasonable suspicion" they would find something criminal. Previously, Custom and Immigration officers in the states covered by the Ninth Circuit had been one of the most aggressive in conducting arbitrary searches of digital devices without any justification. Certain other Circuits have ruled customs and immigration has unbridled discretion to search though a digital device. I'm unaware of any ruling from the Supreme Court on this so right now the law varies at different ports of entry (unless I am incorrect that the Supreme Court hasn't ruled recently on this issue).

[Traveler1234]

I would not trust my pictures to the cloud. If your provider has even one server in the US then the US government has the right, using the infamous "Patriot Act", to snoop around on all its' servers, where ever they may be located around the world.

You're absolutely right, clouds are not be any means snoop proof. But as long as they are not child porn related, you're ok from the Law [but not the Mrs ].
The worst that can happen is the cloud service shuts down your account. Better than having your pc or device confiscated while they conduct a search.

YMMV

[Moris54]

Aren't we being a little paranoid here?

Immigration officials are not likely being bossed around by feminists. I suppose you imagine these women all being dressed in overalls and having short hair?

If you're afraid of having your phone checked for pictures (which is illegal under privacy laws) then transfer them to a memory stick or memory card.

Relax.

Ko.

There can be a hint of paranoia of course, but there is also a large degree of truth. Most people think of feminists as nazi like women with a bad fashion sense and an even worse hair dresser. In reality, most feminists are your boss, your neighbor, you lobbyists, your congresswomen. Don't be fooled by appearances.

[Ethan Hunt123]

Any suggestions on A-Level Escort? Debating between going to a FL club and trying my luck there or getting a Escort. So far tried Cherry (Very happy), Nataree (OK) and a Go-Go in Nana (Bad).

[LA Guy 5]

Dude, the change in demographics in lower Suk over a 10 year period has been shocking. For a visitor, it really does not matter, but some of us live here full time.

No way I would even visit most of the nations those folks come from.

BKK is still the best food city on the planet.

Seattle is way to wet. San Diego, Boulder, drier climes for me.

How about the change in demographics in the patients at Bumrungrad Hospital over the last decade? That has been significant. In any event Bangkok Hospital is better.

Bangkok does have great food.

But New York City, and many many other USA Cities, have significantly more annual rainfall than Seattle despite Seattle's reputation.

[Ethan Hunt123]

FYI, I was not referring to Africans, who I have always found to be polite and nice.

There are many cultures that do not value the traits that you stated above. In fact, extending those traits to all and not just folks of a certain status is really a Western construct and a rather recent one at that. Many cultures still only extend those courtesies to those of their "caste" or to those of their faith. Many believe that showing those courtesies to all demeans them and brings them lower status. You see that played out on lower Suk every day.

Sorry if extending those courtesies to everyone shows my "colonial" mentality, then I will gladly show it. And yes, you are correct. Many Thais are xenophobic and racist. They seem to base it on skin color as opposed to behavior, which I find quite abhorrent.

A quick note: I consider myself very far to the left politically. That being said I am appalled at those who are attacking Maher and Harris for their spot on assessment of Islam. Seeing some of my fellow progressives defend a culture that treats women as property makes me ill.

Really. Then I must be mistaken in tuning that Whiteheads and Neo-Nazis are a Islamic phenomenon No one is debating that treating women like property is prevalent in a lot of Middle Eastern countries. But then you have similar stuff playing out in a lot of western countries as well in the garb of trafficking etc It's unfair to paint a whole race / religion in one color.

And BTW I am not from a Middle East country and nor I am Muslim. In case you were wondering.

[Moris54]

Here here, and I'm not a racist by any definition. But the older I get and the longer I live, I see evidence everywhere that some cultures are simply too retarded by modern standards and will be forever incapable of assimilating into a modern, tolerant, peaceful society. I will leave it to the reader to decide which cultures.

Styk.

FYI, I was not referring to Africans, who I have always found to be polite and nice.

There are many cultures that do not value the traits that you stated above. In fact, extending those traits to all and not just folks of a certain status is really a Western construct and a rather recent one at that. Many cultures still only extend those courtesies to those of their "caste" or to those of their faith. Many believe that showing those courtesies to all demeans them and brings them lower status. You see that played out on lower Suk every day.

Sorry if extending those courtesies to everyone shows my "colonial" mentality, then I will gladly show it. And yes, you are correct. Many Thais are xenophobic and racist. They seem to base it on skin color as opposed to behavior, which I find quite abhorrent.

A quick note: I consider myself very far to the left politically. That being said I am appalled at those who are attacking Maher and Harris for their spot on assessment of Islam. Seeing some of my fellow progressives defend a culture that treats women as property makes me ill.

Extending such "courtesies" to people of all races is by no means a colonial mentality, but expecting reciprocation and judging them for non reciprocation is. That is what I was referring to. I wasn't bought up in the Western construct and there was no influence of the western acceptance mentality in my childhood but it was always embedded in me that we should extend such traits to all people, regardless of race, ethnicity, etc. If this is a Western construct then it may have grown from the mass immigration from third world to first world countries. The practice of tolerance, but is tolerance really acceptance? A lot of first world countries face very grueling social and race issues. I guess that's for another day, another time.

BTW, I am with you on the Islam thing. There is no way anyone, even muslim women can convince me that they actually like being covered head to toe with a metal plate to cover their face.

[Goatscrot]

Things like respect for your fellow human, graciousness, gratitude, generosity. These are traits are universal. They are not relegated to western culture only, and the fact that such behavior is regarded as "western" is downright bigoted.

FYI, I was not referring to Africans, who I have always found to be polite and nice.

There are many cultures that do not value the traits that you stated above. In fact, extending those traits to all and not just folks of a certain status is really a Western construct and a rather recent one at that. Many cultures still only extend those courtesies to those of their "caste" or to those of their faith. Many believe that showing those courtesies to all demeans them and brings them lower status. You see that played out on lower Suk every day.

Sorry if extending those courtesies to everyone shows my "colonial" mentality, then I will gladly show it. And yes, you are correct. Many Thais are xenophobic and racist. They seem to base it on skin color as opposed to behavior, which I find quite abhorrent.

A quick note: I consider myself very far to the left politically. That being said I am appalled at those who are attacking Maher and Harris for their spot on assessment of Islam. Seeing some of my fellow progressives defend a culture that treats women as property makes me ill.

[Moris54]

Superior? Never said I was superior. Different? You mean treating others with contempt? Walking around with a superiority complex? Treating the locals poorly? Walking in the middle of the street? Blocking the sidewalks? Making no attempt to observe what the local customs are? Those kind of things? Sorry, one of the big issues we have on this planet is the push for everyone to accept everything. And many of these folks expect the rest of the world to kowtow to them.

Here here, and I'm not a racist by any definition. But the older I get and the longer I live, I see evidence everywhere that some cultures are simply too retarded by modern standards and will be forever incapable of assimilating into a modern, tolerant, peaceful society. I will leave it to the reader to decide which cultures.

Styk.

Sadly this is not a true representation of the cultures of the people that you are referring to. Let's assume, that you were talking about the Africans hanging out in Lower Sukhumvit. The ones that like to get into your face, full of the holier than thou attitude, rude, condescending, etc, etc. This is not the case in most real African cultures. They are respectful, tactful, decent and accepting. I should know. I have lived in Africa on and off for over 10 years in 6 different countries. The guys that come here know that in a way they will have it tough. The general complaint is that some races do not know how to behave in a modern standard that is universally accepted, but who sets these standards? The Westerners?

Even if they adhered to these standards they will still be discriminated against. Such is the nature of people. They will find some excuse. So now a bunch of guys from Africa show up in Bangkok, they know inherently, regardless of how they behave the Thais will always look down on them, so they put up a front, a hard shell, an attitude of sorts as a defense mechanism for coping. If you ask me I would say that Asian cultures both South and East Asian are very xenophobic and regardless of how you behave or are "expected" to behave to a certain standard they will always look down on you with a sense of contempt. They do it to their own people. Thais hate other Thais that are a shade darker than them, calling them thieves, slanderers, pimps etc, so what prejudged attitudes will they have towards an African? Or an Indian? Or a Cambodian? He / She could be the highly educated, well to do, well respected. But that won't matter.

If the standard model is western behavior what gives anyone the right to deem this as the zenith to what all cultures should adhere to? This is a colonial mentality. There are universally accepted modes of behavior that transgress culture and race. Things like respect for your fellow human, graciousness, gratitude, generosity. These traits are universal. They are not relegated to western culture only, and the fact that such behavior is regarded as "western" is downright bigoted.