American Women

[Joe Zop]

Dickhead, while I agree with you to some extent about the value of people who speak from massive direct experience, people with brains as well as dicks (and, in the case of RN and USbabe, with alternatives to the latter) are in short enough supply that I'm loathe to scare any of them off

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by Fedup
Hey Dickhead... I'm still young and inexperienced in life, mongering, and dating. At what point do my opinions, and the opinions of others, become of significant value to this discussion? Are peripheral ideas and thoughts invalid? Should I leave and come back in 20 years?

The more experience you get, the more valuable and valid your opinions will be, I personally think. It's one thing to be "inexperienced in mongering" and another thing to be hanging around on a prostitution board when you've NEVER been with a hooker.

[Fedup]

Hey Dickhead... I'm still young and inexperienced in life, mongering, and dating. At what point do my opinions, and the opinions of others, become of significant value to this discussion? Are peripheral ideas and thoughts invalid? Should I leave and come back in 20 years?

[Fedup]

CBGB also said... "USBabe, you mention that there is an "exocitism" to European women that is a factor in play with many men's attraction to them. You say that there is something attractive about a foriegn accent. I've never heard such bunk,..."

Sorry... but I agree with USbabe. Hearing my German friend's breath whispering in my ear as I slipped my cock into her was enough to send a ripple down my spine. It's not just the accent, it's the slight differences in mannerisms and inflections that make a foreign girl seem more attractive.

[Fedup]

CBGB... As a Canadian I can tell you that you are, in my estimation, only half right about Canada. Yes... there are more fat slobs in the US (and the largest in Canada cannot compete in the same class as the largest in the US) and I think the reasons are that 1) Canadians are better educated (as you mentioned) and 2) that Canadians are actually embarrassed to be slobs (whereas Americans have the arrogant "I am who I am and fuck you" attitude). I don't agree with you when you say that generally Canadians are better looking though. I see just as many hot girls walking around Tampa as I do in Toronto... the difference is that, statistically speaking, there are more slobs per capita in the US to which our eyes are drawn. I have also found that there is most definitely an exoticism in Toronto and Vancouver. White folk are a minority in these towns. When I enter Toronto from the US I'm stunned by the amount of colours I see on the street.

The more I pay attention to peoples ideas and values in the US the more I realise what a fucked up country it is. It has natural beauty (and money) but, as Stranger pointed out, it's BORING. The same bland restaurants, the same bland architecture, and the same bland (brainwashed, xenophobic, and paranoid) people from east to west. I mentioned before about finding the diamond amongst the lumps of coal and I think I can expand on this metaphor a bit further. The problem with American Women is not that there are no diamonds to be found: the problem is that there is too much coal to sift through to find the diamonds. There's a simple economic principle involved here. Why should I mine diamonds in the US, where the cost is $20 per tonne of coal vs profits of $100 per diamond, when I can go to Europe where the price is $10 per tonne of coal vs profits of $100 per diamond.

At this point I'm not totally bitter about American Women... I'm still able to pick up easily enough so I'll keep trying to sift through all that coal and find the diamond. Yes, the cost is higher, but apparently I'm either a glutton for punishment or too much of an optimist.

[CBGBConnisur]

USBabe, you mention that there is an "exocitism" to European women that is a factor in play with many men's attraction to them. You say that there is something attractive about a foriegn accent. I've never heard such bunk, its interesting how you try to deconstruct and analyze everything. Are you writing some kind of dissertation on this or something? Let me just rip your 'exoticism' argument to shreds. Look up north at our neighbor Canada, on the surface, Canada isn't too different from the US, in fact in many ways its similar. Yet in contrast to the USA, in Canada relationships between men and women are far more harmonious than they are in the States. Case in point is that Canada has a lower divorce rate than the US. I have spent time in Vancouver and find that there is no exoticism at all to Canadian women yet I find them to be on average, very attractive. They tend to be on average more attractive than their US counterparts. On a side note, to anyone on the East coast looking to meet women out West, forget about LA, go to Vancouver instead!! Its much better in Vancouver. The real factor in play is how a women takes care of herself. And European women on average are easily healthier than their American counterparts. After spending a over a year in Europe and returning to States I just couldn't help but notice how overweight and pale so many people were, and then when I returned to Europe for a brief visit with my fiancee, I noticed how healthy and attractive people looked. What this all boils down to is economics, in the US there is WIDE disparity between economic groups and therefore people in the lower economic spectrum don't have access to high quality healthcare, a healthy living environment, and nourishment and such. There is also more egalitarian access to education in Europe than in the States, where college students pay minimal or no fees to get an education. There have been studies that prove that individuals who have access to high quality healthcare and education tend to be overall healthier and, in addition, they tend to maintain their health better than those who don't have such access. So with more social equality people are better able to care for themselves. In addition, they have higher self-esteem as well. But lets face the result, USBabe, the proportion of physically attractive European women is much higher than the proportion of physically attractive American women. Even a good number of friends from Europe who live in the States keep reminding me of this.

[David]

Originally posted by Dickhead
I'm not saying that David (or anyone else) doesn't have the right to be here (my country and your country, at least, are REASONABLY free countries and I don't know or care what country he is from). I'm just saying 1) the opinions of people with no experience in the matter are considerably less valuable than those of people with experience, IMO; and 2) I wonder why such people have an interest in the subject other than seeking cheap thrills.

*Smiles*. I never thought this would cause controversy. Well, I'll respond (just this once) and hopefully this "thread" will die soon thereafter.

1) My inexperience is a large part of the reason I post so infrequently. I post on issues I can discuss intelligently, Morality, and American Women. While my perspective might not be the same as a ... john's, it is still (I believe) typically relevent.

2) Hey, don't knock cheep thrills *smiles*.

David

P.S. Thanks for the defense RN. It's a pity to clutter the board though. I'll send you an e-mail.

[Dickhead]

I'm not saying that David (or anyone else) doesn't have the right to be here (my country and your country, at least, are REASONABLY free countries and I don't know or care what country he is from). I'm just saying 1) the opinions of people with no experience in the matter are considerably less valuable than those of people with experience, IMO; and 2) I wonder why such people have an interest in the subject other than seeking cheap thrills.

Maybe the subject is of considerable "academic" interest to some people. I am willing to consider that possibility. BUT, if I had an interest in let's say skydiving, I wouldn't just participate in a chat room devoted to skydiving; I would JUMP OUT OF AN AIRPLANE!

Now maybe some of the people without experience in prostitution, who are participating on this board, are talking to people who have "jumped out of the plane" to decide whether or not they want to jump as well. That is fine, but eventually if you don't have the guts to jump out of the plane, you should leave the board to the jumpers. This is my opinion, but of course whenever one is judging my opinions, one must remember that I am, of course, and remain, and will probably remain, pretty much of a

Dickhead

It's a tough job, but someone has to do it!

[Rubber Nursey]

Dickhead,

Ok, so attack was maybe a strong word to use I didn't mean to attack YOU either with my post, but I wanted to defend David's right to be here. I wasn't really going to say this....but then I figured it's documented in the archives for all to see so I may as well....originally David came to this forum asking questions of a personal nature that were very much to do with the purpose of this board. He was looking for information on commercial sex services. Then from memory, he stayed around for a little while longer to defend me in a very volatile situation with some extremely cruel flamers. By that time he had become "part of the group" and joined in our conversations.

I was not saying that you don't have a right to believe he shouldn't be here...because of course, you do...but I felt I needed to defend David as he has done for me in the past.

And as for the Morality of Menstruation...there is none! That was a very cruel and spiteful stunt pulled by the God In Whom We Do Not Believe, and I for one am very pissed off at him!!

[Dickhead]

Originally posted by RN CBGB and Dickhead,
...I think your attack on David was pretty harsh. He has been posting here for a long time, from memory longer than both of you, and has always had something positive and interesting to say. If this board is only for "men looking for sex with prostitutes"...does that mean I should also leave? I have been here for a long time too, with Jackson's blessing. At least David has a penis!! LOL

Dickhead, you said: "All these philosophical discussions are well and good but if the input is coming from a bunch of fucking sorority girls or naive frat boys with Coppertone tans who wouldn't know a hooker from a kick in the ass, what relevance does it have?"

I hardly think what I said qualifies as an attack. I am just amazed that someone who has no experience with prostitutes would hang around on this board and I question their motives. I don't know anything about cricket, so when I am hanging around with Ozzies and Kiwis and they are talking about it, guess what I do? I shut the fuck up. YOU can stay because you have knowledge of prostitution. I mean, David posts in the Morality of Prostitution section as well as the American Women section. At least USBabe sticks to the latter. Anyone who has no experience with prostitution knows as much about the morality of prostitution as I know about the morality of menstruation.

This is my opinion and I am sticking to it. You won't find me in the Africa section, cuz I've never been there and you won't find me discussing the morality of homosexuality, or heroin use, or bashing Martha Stewart.

[Joe Zop]

Originally posted by RN
Why do men say "Oh yeah, I love kids" to a single Mum when they really can't stand the sight of them?

Because they really do love the concept of having kids and would like to be in a relationship where they do so -- it's the reality of dealing with someone else's (meaning walking hip-deep into a nest of responsibility) they can't handle. No, it's not nice or fair, but it's not intentionally dishonest. As always -- and unfortunately -- there are several levels of truth, and everyone speaks the one they see best. It's the gods of relativity at work.

And Joe....I think I just answered my own question to you in the other section!

And with devastating accuracy, as always...

[Rubber Nursey]

And, to get myself back on topic...

David re: being brutally honest about what you want out of a relationship.

You're completely right about being TOO honest. If a man I just met told me he wanted to marry me and have ten kids, I would freak out and run! LOL What I was really getting at though, was honesty about OURSELVES. Dating has traditionally meant a lot of lying and trying to be someone we aren't. Why shouldn't we discuss issues of prostitution or politics or religion when the topics come up in the first stages of a relationship? Why should we tell someone that we love them just so we can get them into bed? Why do men say "Oh yeah, I love kids" to a single Mum when they really can't stand the sight of them? I'm not saying that we should be brutal...just honest.

You know, if a man I was attracted to kissed me at the end of a date and said "I can't make any promises about tomorrow, but right now I really want to sleep with you"...I would do it in a flash. I would appreciate his honesty and I would know where I stand. (And feel free to take that line and make it your own, boys...LOL)

I wish you wouldn't all post at once...it takes so long to catch up!

[Rubber Nursey]

Stranger,

"For RN: while working did you ever think of one of your clients as a potential partner for your life. I know it is kind of a "Pretty Woman" situation but I am just curious to know if you had ever thought of imagining some of you private life coming out of your professional one".

That's a really tricky one. I would like to have dated someone who, as a client, knew about my past...there's never a good time to say to a prospective partner "Oh yeah, and I've worked as a hooker for the last 5 years..."
BUT, it is also frightening to have a partner who DOES know about your past. If you break up badly they can ruin your life by telling everyone, they can throw it in your face in arguments and having them around is a permanent reminder of "what you were".
As far as Pretty Woman goes though...No. I was never looking to be "rescued".

And here is a strange thought, (one that really should be taken to the Morality section, rather than here)....just as he may view me as "damaged goods" or a sl*t or untrustworthy because of the stereotype of hookers, I would be just as likely to hold the stereotype of a client against him too. I would be unlikely to trust a man who I know has tasted the "forbidden delights" of the sex industry...I would always wonder if he was still seeing hookers behind my back, just as he would wonder if I was still secretly hooking!

And Joe....I think I just answered my own question to you in the other section! LOL D'oh!

[Rubber Nursey]

CBGB and Dickhead,

Now c'mon guys...I think your attack on David was pretty harsh. He has been posting here for a long time, from memory longer than both of you, and has always had something positive and interesting to say. If this board is only for "men looking for sex with prostitutes"...does that mean I should also leave? I have been here for a long time too, with Jackson's blessing. At least David has a penis!! LOL

Dickhead, you said: "All these philosophical discussions are well and good but if the input is coming from a bunch of fucking sorority girls or naive frat boys with Coppertone tans who wouldn't know a hooker from a kick in the ass, what relevance does it have?"

That's what these sections are...philosophical discussions and opinions. As far as I know, David doesn't post in the field report sections, and neither do I (other than a few bits of local info in the Oz section). But these opinion pages are for people interested in the subject of prostitution. Maybe David doesn't have any specific experience in the field to talk about...but does that make his thoughts on American women invalid? Are hookers and wh*remongers the only ones who have an opinion on the Morality of Prostitution?

There are two reasons why we should be more willing to allow "outsiders" into the Opinions and Editorials section of the forum....
a) We need to have opposition to create a debate, and we need to be questioned in order to create discussion. How mundane would it be if we all had exactly the same level of experience and the same opinions? and
b) Because the more "outsiders" learn about the industry, and pass that info onto others, the more chance there is that one day prostitution will be accepted by the community and sex workers will be able to work without the soul-destroying stigma that currently comes with the job.

Ok, I'll step back off my soapbox now.

[Rubber Nursey]

USBabe,

"I haven't read any other forums here, so I hope you'll forgive me when I did a double-take upon reading that you're a sex worker".

Don't worry...it happens all the time. I guess it seems strange to most to have a discussion with a sex worker, because a) most people presume that all hookers have very little education or intelligence (otherwise they would have a "real" job) and b) most sex workers do not speak out in the public arena, so it is odd to have a conversation with a woman who actually readily identifies as one. I'm not saying that you thought either of these things...just that it would be pretty commonplace if you did.
"This is a very personal question, and if you feel comfortable answering, I'd really appreciate it (and if you don't, I understand and hope that you aren't offended).... In no way am I trying to insult you, but the concept is completely foreign to me".

Please don't feel that you have to walk on eggshells around me. I am not easily offended, and I'm more than happy to answer any questions. As a matter of fact I appreciate when people ask questions, rather than just relying on myths and ugly stereotypes.

"How did you become a sex worker? I mean, was it a conscious choice or the best of your options at that time?"

Both. I was newly divorced with two children to support, and in severe financial difficulty, so I guess it was the best option I had at the time. BUT, it was also something I consciously chose to do to solve my problems...I figured it was a way I could get out of debt fast and still have the time to spend with my kids, at a time when they really needed their Mum (to adjust to the divorce). I could have just got a "normal" job if I'd wanted to, but that would have meant longer hours to make the same amount of money. Once I had started I found that I actually enjoyed it...and stayed in it for 5 years. I am not working at the moment, but I know it will always be an option for me in the future.

For the record, I have never done drugs, never worked the streets and never been arrested or involved in any other crime.