General Info

[GoodEnough]

Hi GE and RK,

Thanks for your many posts and insights, USA politics notwithstanding. Other than your work there (and the steady availability of sweet young things and a Filipina wife / family) what would you says are the main draws? Economy, of course, but what else keeps you there, please?

It's a good question D, and I'm not sure I can provide a succinct set of responses, though I'll try. I've spent most of the last 35 years or so overseas, and most of that time was spent in what are euphemistically called "developing countries," mostly in Africa, and Southeast Asia. During the time I spent in Africa I was actually based in France and during downtime spent most of my vacations either traveling through France or other Western European countries. Thus, I've not actually lived in my country of birth for a long time.

Generally, I've observed that long-term expats develop a worldview, or perhaps a loose set of perceptions or beliefs that evolve, over time, into a mindset that's different from those who remained in their countries of birth: not better necessarily, but different. In my case, which I'm sure is not unique, I found that I could adapt readily to new cultures, could be comfortable in a variety of cultures, but of course didn't belong to any of the cultures in which I was living or working. I also found that, having been away from the US for so long, I did not really fit in there either, and the longer I remained outside of the country the less comfortable I felt when I did return. This has little to do with politics per se, as my alienation started well before the election of Trump or Obama. So, the bottom line for me is that I felt, and still feel, more comfortable, more challenged and more fulfilled I suppose, in cultures that are not my own. I also feel less constrained.

Turning to the more specific question of what I find appealing about the Philippines, I'the have to start by stating that I've always enjoyed SE Asia, particularly Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines, which are the countries in which I've spent most of my working time. I could have been happy living in any of them, and in choosing the Philippines, I can't separate the reasons underlying my choice from the. Fact that I found here the best relationship with a woman that I've ever had, since this relationship figured hugely into my reason for remaining. Without it, I might have opted for a different country in the region. Having said that however, I have no problems citing factors that reinforce my choice of countries:

1. My academic interests lie in the study / understanding of different cultures and societies and ethnic groups. The Philippines offers an incredibly rich pastiche of languages, tribal cultures, ethnic groups and potpourri of customs that would take a lifetime to try to understand. I've been fortunate as well to have spent more than a decade in various Muslim areas of Mindanao, and working with highly differentiated Muslim cultures throughout the region, and this too has reinforced my interests.

2. I find the people of the Philippines among the most friendly, open and welcoming nationalities I've ever encountered, and I've made a lot of close Filipino friends. I'm not sure this would have been possible in other countries in the region that tend to be less permeable.

3. I think, to some small extent, my work here has made a positive difference in the lives of the people with whom I've worked. This has been for me, if not unique, then rare. I've worked in the field of Development almost my entire professional life, often believing that the programs I helped to design and / or implement had little or no impact. That's not been the case here, and it's highly satisfying to know I might have made a small contribution to the lives of several thousand Filipinos.

4. As absurd as this may sound, I've grown accustomed to the chaos, to the quasi-anarchy; the shrugging at rules, the impishness, the joie de vivre and the genuine joy that Filipinos seem to find in each other's company (and sometimes even in my company.).

5. The older I become, the more I appreciate the deference paid here to age. I like the preferences given to senior citizens. I like the fact that there are special lines for me in supermarkets and pharmacies. I appreciate the fact that I can jumpwithout incurring any resentmentto the head of a queue at the airport because of my senior citizen status. From this standpoint, the Philippines may be the best country I can think of in which to grow older.

Thanks for raising the question. You've made me think about the major aspects of life and culture here that cause me to stay. I hope my response wasn't too boring.

[D Cups]

Hi GE and RK,

Thanks for your many posts and insights, USA politics notwithstanding. Other than your work there (and the steady availability of sweet young things and a Filipina wife / family) what would you says are the main draws? Economy, of course, but what else keeps you there, please?

RK is again correct. I find much more that I like. I find that when I do return to "civilization" in the West, 3 weeks is about enough for me and I start to miss this place after being away from it for brief periods.

[Omega 3]

Your good old friend's philosophy is misplaced Om.

Thailand's structure and economy has outstripped the Philippines and yet their sex industry is many times larger than the Philippines, because there are literally millions more foreign visitors each year. These surplus foreigners with money are also attractive to Thais. KL (Malaysia) and Jakarta (Indonesia) also are much more advanced than the Philippines and foreigners with money attract women there too.

I have said many times before on this board that any guy using the exclusive criterion of "lots of available and willing women" as the primary basis on which to make a decision to live here will end up a sad and sorry person, especially if everything else irritates him. I originally came to work in Manila for 3 months and liked it enough to extend my contract to 2 years which has since morphed into 20 years. At no time was ease of mongering a factor in my decision-making although, of course, it is a nice sideline benefit. There are so many other aspects that I enjoy and for me, life is good.

Yeah right, RK.

If the Philippine economy were like Japan, then Walking Street, Burgos, and the 3,000 peso bar fine would just be distant memories of the good old days.

And the simple reality is that many, although not all, of USA Are here because there are "lots of available and willing women".

OM.

P.S. Who said anything about living here.

[GoodEnough]

I have said many times before on this board that any guy using the exclusive criterion of "lots of available and willing women" as the primary basis on which to make a decision to live here will end up a sad and sorry person, especially if everything else irritates him. I originally came to work in Manila for 3 months and liked it enough to extend my contract to 2 years which has since morphed into 20 years. At no time was ease of mongering a factor in my decision-making although, of course, it is a nice sideline benefit. There are so many other aspects that I enjoy and for me, life is good.

RK is again correct, the ready availability of sexual partners is a poor criterion for making the decision to live here. As many thoughtful expats would substantiate, it all gets rather old rather fast, and it's just not enough to sustain a meaningful lifestyle here or anywhere in SE Asia including Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia, and I've lived and worked in two of the former three. I came here originally on a four-year contract to manage a program, and it's now 16 years later. Obviously, I've found more to my liking here than readily available sex and while I'm mildly bothered by some aspects of life, I find much more that I like. I find that when I do return to "civilization" in the West, 3 weeks is about enough for me and I start to miss this place after being away from it for brief periods.

Yes, the SWT availability is a lovely side benefit, but it's simply not nearly enough of a basis on which to relocate to this part of the world.

GE.

[XXL]

(1) Only one person handles the cash register which will make it harder for employees to skim money.

(2) The wait staff are assigned numbered charge slips which they use for each transaction. This will discourage skimming and pilfering.

(3) The system has deliberate redundancies which seem to be aimed at preventing employee theft.

(4) The inefficiencies in the system never seem to be intended to serve the consumers' interests but rather to protect the owner from his own employees.

(5) The method of transacting business seems to be nationwide and not just in Angeles or Cebu. It is probably taught in accounting programs nationwide where its practices are integrated into an entire business model. It is part of the national psyche as much as is driving on the right side of the road.

(6) Where did the PI get this system? Is it is a throwback to Spanish colonialism? Did the Americans teach them this business model along with instruction in English? Or is it a homegrown Philippine chestnut?

What is being described here is pretty much what goes on in black Africa. Plausibly for the same reasons (preventing theft by staff).

[MrWoolyBooly]

Your good old friend's philosophy is misplaced Om.

Thailand's structure and economy has outstripped the Philippines and yet their sex industry is many times larger than the Philippines, because there are literally millions more foreign visitors each year. These surplus foreigners with money are also attractive to Thais. KL (Malaysia) and Jakarta (Indonesia) also are much more advanced than the Philippines and foreigners with money attract women there too.

I have said many times before on this board that any guy using the exclusive criterion of "lots of available and willing women" as the primary basis on which to make a decision to live here will end up a sad and sorry person, especially if everything else irritates him. I originally came to work in Manila for 3 months and liked it enough to extend my contract to 2 years which has since morphed into 20 years. At no time was ease of mongering a factor in my decision-making although, of course, it is a nice sideline benefit. There are so many other aspects that I enjoy and for me, life is good.

May I respectfully disagree if we change the comparison from local sex industries to finding ordinary local ladies willing to satisfy? I've been to Malaysia and many other countries covering most of the Northern Hemisphere. I've found no country yields better results with the ladies than the Philippines when comparing against the same time / money / effort expended elsewhere. Whether it's poverty, English proficiency, culture, extreme wealth inequality, low expectations of men, or what I don't know.

[Cunning Stunt]

Fuckin' hell guys. I now remember why I seldom delve much further than the PG these days😩.

[Red Kilt]

<SNIP>

For what it's worth, I have a good old American friend who retired to the Philippines 35 years ago, and who started and has run for many years a thriving, low-overhead business here. He still gets pissed off (in a manageable way) at similar daily experiences, and swears at the execrable traffic. He calls the Philippines "The Land of the Not Quite Right" among other things. But in his more philosophical moments, his view is as follows: Because things don't work efficiently or effectively, the country has not progressed economically as fast as many other countries in Asia. Because of this depressed economic situation, foreigners with some money are still attractive to Pinays.

Your good old friend's philosophy is misplaced Om.

Thailand's structure and economy has outstripped the Philippines and yet their sex industry is many times larger than the Philippines, because there are literally millions more foreign visitors each year. These surplus foreigners with money are also attractive to Thais. KL (Malaysia) and Jakarta (Indonesia) also are much more advanced than the Philippines and foreigners with money attract women there too.

I have said many times before on this board that any guy using the exclusive criterion of "lots of available and willing women" as the primary basis on which to make a decision to live here will end up a sad and sorry person, especially if everything else irritates him. I originally came to work in Manila for 3 months and liked it enough to extend my contract to 2 years which has since morphed into 20 years. At no time was ease of mongering a factor in my decision-making although, of course, it is a nice sideline benefit. There are so many other aspects that I enjoy and for me, life is good.

[Member #4566]

I keep telling myself that it's a rational business decision weighing the cost of labor over the cost of whatever automation they'd pay otherwise. I have no idea. Drives me crazy in any small store to have them write with pen on paper an itemized receipt on carbon paper. Regardless of (in) efficiency, there is simply no culture of hustle on the job. While in the Philippines we need to just psychologically get over it or leave.

The commercial / accounting system in retail businesses which has been the subject of recent posts. Here are a few more observations on this issue.

(1) Only one person handles the cash register which will make it harder for employees to skim money.

(2) The wait staff are assigned numbered charge slips which they use for each transaction. This will discourage skimming and pilfering.

(3) The system has deliberate redundancies which seem to be aimed at preventing employee theft.

(4) The inefficiencies in the system never seem to be intended to serve the consumers' interests but rather to protect the owner from his own employees.

(5) The method of transacting business seems to be nationwide and not just in Angeles or Cebu. It is probably taught in accounting programs nationwide where its practices are integrated into an entire business model. It is part of the national psyche as much as is driving on the right side of the road.

(6) Where did the PI get this system? Is it is a throwback to Spanish colonialism? Did the Americans teach them this business model along with instruction in English? Or is it a homegrown Philippine chestnut?

American business practices underwent a revolution in the 1940's with the promulgation of the Uniform Commercial Code. This new vision of contract law call Legal Realism did away with Legal Formalism where a contract could be voided by peccadillos like forgetting to put in the date. Legal realism looked beyond the form of the contract to the actions of the contracting parties to find evidence of things like the effective date of the contract. Did Legal Realism come too late be implemented by the PI? Interesting question.

[Omega 3]

*** So I'm in the province for a few days with my pinay. We are having the usual lovely time. Her youth, vigor, and continuously growing appetite had earned her a new phone and some shopping. ***

I was not thinking straight, and I got in the long line. I read on my phone for a few minutes, and then it became a bit like torture. 10 minutes on I had closed half the distance to the register, in order to hand over 1. 75 pesos. Tick, tock. One's blood should boil, right? I just didn't have a fight in me, so I just waited. Bit like torture defined: Its like sticking a sewing needle into one of your testicles, but just 1/20th the way. Every 60 seconds, stick it in 1/20th more. Painful, but in drawn out doses. ***

She said that she would talk with each of the employees that I had mentioned, and also one of the managers in the management office (whom the guard was speaking with) to find out why they did not direct me to the complaint desk. I said that I would be back tomorrow to follow up with her on her 'imbestigasyon'. Of course I didn't go back. ***

Condolences, Westy, most of the rest of us mortals have suffered through a number of similar painful experiences, and can empathize with you.

For what it's worth, I have a good old American friend who retired to the Philippines 35 years ago, and who started and has run for many years a thriving, low-overhead business here. He still gets pissed off (in a manageable way) at similar daily experiences, and swears at the execrable traffic. He calls the Philippines "The Land of the Not Quite Right" among other things. But in his more philosophical moments, his view is as follows: Because things don't work efficiently or effectively, the country has not progressed economically as fast as many other countries in Asia. Because of this depressed economic situation, foreigners with some money are still attractive to Pinays.

In other words, if things worked efficiently and effectively here, and if the economy were booming, the local women would not find us so attractive any more. Given this perspective, we should be thankful for this Kafkaesque condition here.

I know, this may seem like a BS rationalization. But, still, it is food for thought.

As I posted just a few minutes ago, don't try to do all the small stuff yourself. Try to delegate as much of the small stuff as possible. Pay an eager local person some modest (to us) sum to be your "gofer". They will be happy, and you may be happier too. Lean back and maximize your time relaxing and enjoying the lovely young lasses. That's the reason, after all, that most of us are here.

Good luck!

OM.

[Omega 3]

After 15 years here, I've learned that it's always better to have your asawa undertake these tasks, while you wait for her in a nearby coffee shop. And if you think commercial transactions are fun, try the whole business permitting process.

GE.

As noted by some posters on this thread and elsewhere, things can get extremely frustrating here, especially when encountering the prevalent "petty bureaucratic" approach.

Also, as pointed out by some others, "It is what it is" and we don't really have the power to effectively change or improve this condition.

One possible solution I have also found is to delegate the relatively minor but potentially annoying chores. If not to Asawa, then delegate to a GF or a local "gofer" and pay them the P300 daily minimum wage or whatever. They will be happy to wait in line for hours (or whatever) and you will be happy not to have to put up with the frustrating nonsense aka BS.

Sometimes, however, easier said than done.

OM.

[Red Kilt]

The bottom line in all these chronicles of inefficiency etc is that it's the Philippines and it's the residents' right to run it as they wish.

Non-filipinos are merely visitors who may choose to stay here (as I have done) despite unfavorable or frustrating experiences, leave and never return or keep on coming back again and again to satisfy their masochistic tendencies.

The country is what it is.

I have no problem with first-time visitors who think "WTF" and then skedaddle out of the Philippines as fast as they can and who will not return. I am troubled by those who have either lived here for an extended period or who return again and again as short-term visitors and yet feel compelled to document every single negative thing that they experience in order to pour derision on both the people and the processes.

You only need to live here for a very short time to know both what's wrong with the country and what is attractive about it. Most of the negative things that are continuously documented here have been in place for all of the 20 years I have lived here, but the other positive experiences of living here outweigh the negatives, otherwise I would have left long ago.

If you want to live in the Philippines peacefully and in good health, leave all your expectations and western hang-ups at the airport as you arrive and just enjoy the ride.

[GoodEnough]

The Globe Express counter in Ayala, Cebu) was never express and could be an hour before being served for something very simple. Worse if there were Koreans in queue which for me meant for me "come back another day".

After 15 years here, I've learned that it's always better to have your asawa undertake these tasks, while you wait for her in a nearby coffee shop. And if you think commercial transactions are fun, try the whole business permitting process.

GE.

[MrWoolyBooly]

But this provides employment and at around 300 pesos a day maybe the owners don't care.

I keep telling myself that it's a rational business decision weighing the cost of labor over the cost of whatever automation they'd pay otherwise. I have no idea. Drives me crazy in any small store to have them write with pen on paper an itemized receipt on carbon paper. Regardless of (in) efficiency, there is simply no culture of hustle on the job. While in the Philippines we need to just psychologically get over it or leave. I flirt with the staff or use wait times to arrange my next meeting with a lady friend. It's actually more frustrating when accompanied, requiring forced conversation.

Worse if there were Koreans in queue which for me meant for me "come back another day".

I've seen this very line at the Globe Express counter at Ayala Mall in Cebu. The line consisted of one Korean and one Filipina in front of me. Long lines, whatever. Waiting for the comedy of a Korean without English / Cebuano / Tagalog and a Filipina cashier without Korean to explain a transaction, excruciating.

[MvuLane]

I was calm through this.

Well, I believe we all know the PIs are quite unlike Switzerland. Then again, they are more fun, warmer. And cheaper.