General Info

[McAdonis]

Somehow I think I'm the only one who read McA's report and understand it the way I do. My understanding is that the foreign Bears from the US and Asia will continue to fly in until the price in FKK / Sauna Clubs in Germany hits the 250 mark. If that time arrives it's more economical to search elsewhere and less tourists will be found.

Yes, this is what I intended to convey. Each nation has a paid sex scene that varies based on price / quality / availability. Also each nation has different travel costs, travel times, and sometimes exchange rates that need to be taken into consideration when visiting German FKK. So they would each have different price points where it makes sense for them to (a) cut back on FKK, (b) monger closer to home or (c) switch to alternative countries or mediums (escort, RLD).

I would like to bump a theory from myself and some local friends that we believe has resulted in lower attendance by locals in clubs as well as a reduction in the amount of sessions per visit. I'm willing to hear from any others regarding the theory as well.

Our theory is that there is less untraced money in the hands of local men due to increased effort of local nations to capture black market spending. Many nations have started demanding all purchases above certain prices to be conducted via bank transfers. This results in the government tax authority to be able to trace the money. A secondary effect is that wives now see this money on the husbands books, making it harder for the man to hide spending cash in clubs.

Hadn't considered increased scrutiny of cash transactions and taxes as a cause for decreased FKK attendance. This theory makes sense for Germans and Italians who have been slow to go cashless, but have been inching toward it the last five years. Germany would be the biggest category of mongers. However, some of the main nationalities represented at FKKs have been quite cashless for a while: https://gomedici.com/which-countries-are-close-to-a-cashless-world/

But I can throw in another technology-related observation: smartphones and 4G networks. Nowadays if the wife or GF is away on business or visiting her parents, she might expect you to video chat. She may want to see your face. What if you are supposed to be at home, but she cannot see the walls of your living room in the background? Level of impact may be different depending on age demographic. This technology may have not penetrated the 50-70 age monger demographic. But the tech-savvy younger mongers, or mongers with younger significant others will see greater impact.

[Chongmal]

The limit for most of the rest of Europe to travel to FKK's is at around the price level of Wellcum: entry 85 and 70 for half an hour. And at that level lineup needs to be heavy strong with lots of good options, fantastic food, great management and absolutely no upselling. Those are the limits I have calculated. Although a smarter price would be 70/30 min and 120/1 HR. Otherwise nobody will go for the 1 HR rooms unless stupid. Or 70 e entry, and they could up it to 75/30 min and 130/1 HR. Anything less, or with higher prices, and other hobbies / destinations becomes superior in a heartbeat for any European not living within a 1.30 HR driving range.

Pistons,

You've been around the scene for some time and seem quite in tune with local trends. I would like to bump a theory from myself and some local friends that we believe has resulted in lower attendance by locals in clubs as well as a reduction in the amount of sessions per visit. I'm willing to hear from any others regarding the theory as well.

Our theory is that there is less untraced money in the hands of local men due to increased effort of local nations to capture black market spending. Many nations have started demanding all purchases above certain prices to be conducted via bank transfers. This results in the government tax authority to be able to trace the money. A secondary effect is that wives now see this money on the husbands books, making it harder for the man to hide spending cash in clubs.

[Chongmal]

There is a big difference between 150/ HR and 250/ HR. The former is already here -- well almost; at least some Oase girls will not even agree to DFK etc in a 100 E60 M and I wrote up my own mea culpa about how I contributed to price destruction in my session with Adele. Granted 150/ HR is not common yet, but with some guys tipping the effective price with all goodies included is definitely more than 100 an HR.

250/ HR is something else. I don't have any hard numbers to back me up but I would think that would stop a lot of fly in tourists from US (and perhaps Asia). Those who are still passing through DE might take a few hours off and get in a quick fuck or two. But one characteristic that marks a lot of fly in sex tourists is that in a few days they take several sessions. 20 sessions in 5 days at 250 an hour could be a minimum of 2500 E if all of them half HR, and 5000 or more with extras. Of course the fly in tourist can cut down his sessions to just 10 in 5 days, but then he would feel like the fixed costs of airfare and hotel etc were not fully amortized.

However, I don't think the price rises to 250/ HR anytime soon. To me, the prices (averaged over sufficient number of sessions) seem to be rising somewhat gradually and not at several orders of magnitude faster than local inflation. I will leave to the experts if that is true or not.

Somehow I think I'm the only one who read McA's report and understand it the way I do. My understanding is that the foreign Bears from the US and Asia will continue to fly in until the price in FKK / Sauna Clubs in Germany hits the €250 mark. If that time arrives it's more economical to search elsewhere and less tourists will be found.

[Member #4581]

There is a big difference between 150/ HR and 250/ HR. The former is already here -- well almost; at least some Oase girls will not even agree to DFK etc in a 100 E60 M and I wrote up my own mea culpa about how I contributed to price destruction in my session with Adele. Granted 150/ HR is not common yet, but with some guys tipping the effective price with all goodies included is definitely more than 100 an HR.

250/ HR is something else. I don't have any hard numbers to back me up but I would think that would stop a lot of fly in tourists from US (and perhaps Asia). Those who are still passing through DE might take a few hours off and get in a quick fuck or two. But one characteristic that marks a lot of fly in sex tourists is that in a few days they take several sessions. 20 sessions in 5 days at 250 an hour could be a minimum of 2500 E if all of them half HR, and 5000 or more with extras. Of course the fly in tourist can cut down his sessions to just 10 in 5 days, but then he would feel like the fixed costs of airfare and hotel etc were not fully amortized.

However, I don't think the price rises to 250/ HR anytime soon. To me, the prices (averaged over sufficient number of sessions) seem to be rising somewhat gradually and not at several orders of magnitude faster than local inflation. I will leave to the experts if that is true or not.

[Member #4581]

Just because average worker sees increase in real wages, does that mean that everyone in all sectors, should automatically get an increase?

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Average may not be perfect but is more reflective of the whole population than any selective anecdotal info. One could also ask, what is the relevance of manufacturing wages being stagnant when it comes to FKK girls. The point is, the German working population as a whole has experienced some "real" wage growth, where as FKK girls have seen flat prices even in nominal terms, let alone real terms.

As for the pole dance crew vs others and who is getting business and who is not -- no doubt there are always disparities between girls in terms of # of sessions, # extras etc. But as in the post below, it is more about the effective prices having increased.

When the club mandated a flat nominal price in the face of non zero inflation in the broader society and real wages appreciating for the nation's working population, it was inevitable that girls would raise prices effectively. And they have.

[Member #4581]

I think prices increased within clubs. If you could be a fly on the wall, and witnessed a few thousand sessions say 8 years ago and now, in a base 50 E ticket I think you would see fewer number of dfks and datys, pre couch sessions, sessions lasting the full 30 m, perhaps even fewer bbbjs, fewer goodies likes BLS / rim job / etc and more bulk discounts (goodies in one hour but not half HR). To compute price, you have to average over all those sessions and all those goodies. Numerator stays the same because price is ostensibly the same 50 E, but denominator has declined. Just as you have to compute RevPar or Rev per passenger mile to answer what happened to hotel prices or airfares over time, one has to average over a large sessions to understand what happened to FKK prices and to me the trajectory appears upwards, gradually and constantly.

I have no clue about non FKK scene. I will take your word for it. But over there too, it is important to make comparisons on a like for like basis. Is the quality of the girl, session, other parameters consistently the same along with price? In my opinion, it is tough to make an accurate assessment of price stability outside clubs because it is not organized, not in a small setting, unobservable except of one's own usage patterns, and the range of girls and services is too vast.

Even if there is price stability outside the clubs, it s clear that these two markets are effectively segregated. If they were not, then the price disparity could not have widened over time like this.

You did not say if the cause and result of your fewer sessions in FKKs is more sessions outside the clubs. If so, then that would indicate somewhat of a substitute for you. But for others, RLD and streets may not be a substitute regardless of continued price hikes in the clubs. In those instances, price hikes could just lead to fewer sessions within clubs (as you indicated has been happening in Hessen and NRW clubs). For me and some other fly in tourists, streets and even RLD are never options. We have street h00 kers even in my own city, why bother?

The paid sex scene outside of FKK clubs is too big, so the range of services, optics, and prices is too wide. One person can only sample so much, but yes I do believe it has remained stable outside the clubs. Also at FKKs, I am meeting many regulars who share information, so I feel it is easier to obtain a more complete snapshot that encompasses more than just my own experiences.

I am not a big spender, but when I perceive value, I tend to go on more of a shopping spree. So while effective prices increased (price demands increased, attitudes worsened), my per visit spending Sharks is about half what it used to be. Same thing happened my last ten visits at Oase, before I just stopped attending completely. Not sure how many others fit my profile.

I do believe FKKs are losing customers. Certainly none of the clubs are consistently as busy as they once were. Oase was the busiest Hessen club in 2013. Multiple mongers have told me that attendance has decreased or stayed flat the last few years, even with Oase introducing entry discount promotions and improved food offerings. World is reportedly a ghost town compared to years past. The emergence of Sharks in 2014-2016, we all know caused both Hessen incumbents to lose customers. But in my opinion Sharks in 2018 is not as busy as 2014-2016 either. I will admit though, that of the three, Sharks' attendance levels would be the hardest to gauge. Simply because Sharks added rooms, lockers, and parking spaces in the last two years. So is it a case of male attendance decreasing at Sharks or did their infrastructure improvements just make it feel less congested?

Attendance is down at just about every NRW club. GT might be the lone exception. Chongmal, BB69, Siri have been vocal about LR's attendance issues. Acapulco attendance drop-off was dramatic the second-half of 2017, there has been a rebound, but still not at pre-2017 levels. Recently, RN remarked that Stuttgart Paradise dropped its price from 79 EUR to 69 EUR, and suggested "business must be slow". As far as I know, there hasn't been a new FKK venue opening in Stuttgart area in over a decade, so can't see why they'd be losing business, unless customers just lost interest in paid sex or chose paid sex alternatives.

[Pistons]

One point we haven't looked at in our equations is the currently far too overvalued american dollar. Looking at the US trade imbalance and salary levels, taking away their reserve currency status (could happen with the trade war), and the currently far too high us interest rate, the US dollar could fall by 20-30% to the euro and a euro would be at around 1.5 usd. Thus lowering the american tourist spending power while in Europe.

(The reserve currency status will probably hold, so a 1.40 is more normalized).

(Credit card loans and small credit loans in order to get mortgages in USA along with unpayable student loans will soon enough cause a new interest rate drop in america, normalising the usd). The yen is also at massive pressure due to ageing in Japan and a shrinking workforce and slowing down on new patents / inventions).

[Kosher Kowboy]

Certainly no locals or Europeans in any sort of number will pay these prices. FKK and Sauna Clubs will consequently close.

I have occasionally met some Spanish FKK customers. Probably more common than Irish though! certainly not come for Euro 150 or Euro 200 per hour. Just you North American guys!

Yes indeed, I may be a jaded curmudgeon. But I don't live in dreamland or is that the USA where you dream about sex in other peoples countries because you have wrecked your own!

I will hopefully see some of these Spanish putaeros one day and get some good inside tips for Spain 2019. I have met plenty of Irish in my few years, or perhaps having lived in Chicago so long I confuse any inebriated gentleman to be an Irishman. (Great tippers, at least at the bars).

Sex in the USA since the good ole days of the old west or even middle 1900's is garbage. We have no choice but to travel. However I sense you are a little frustrated or upset with North Americans and it might not be fair to toss the Canadians in with us. It is not their fault we are disliked. I think the real issue you have is our President. He is an idiot. American mongers are not.

Our President's disrespect for the EU and it's leaders is uncalled for and unwarranted and he has insulted all of Europe calling them the enemy. So I understand the anti- American sentiment all too well. We are not all like our President in fact most of us did not vote for him. I think you are confusing politics and mongering but the real culprits are the Basket of Deplorables that put this schmuck in office.

However I think many idiots go and overpay and am in agreement, but I think idiots come from America, Asia and other parts of Europe as well and occasionally one from the Lone Star State may show up. I am sure there are a few German idiots too, albeit a tiny percentage that would be close to negligible.

I met a guy at Mainhatten last trip. He paid 200 for an hour with BBBJ. Got clipped for the 50 upsell X 2. He was not from Asia nor America. He was an Italian. And his breath stunk.

I feel bad for Italian hookers.

[Pistons]

The limit for most of the rest of Europe to travel to FKK's is at around the price level of Wellcum: entry 85 and 70 for half an hour. And at that level lineup needs to be heavy strong with lots of good options, fantastic food, great management and absolutely no upselling. Those are the limits I have calculated. Although a smarter price would be 70/30 min and 120/1 HR. Otherwise nobody will go for the 1 HR rooms unless stupid. Or 70 e entry, and they could up it to 75/30 min and 130/1 HR. Anything less, or with higher prices, and other hobbies / destinations becomes superior in a heartbeat for any European not living within a 1.30 HR driving range.

[Pistons]

Agree with DerAuslander on the pricing. Absolutely no European from outside of Germany would visit FKK's if prices for 30 minutes standard session reaches 100 euro like some girls even have started asking for. Just adding in transport cost and club entries would make the calculations not worth it. Where I live I can get the same rate (100-110 e for 30 min) and with zero nothing in entry cost, and optics at the same level. Just a bit less options available at any one time.

[Der Auslander]

1. Americans and Asians will still fly into DE. The price for comparable white WGs in their home countries is minimum five times the price. So I don't think these mongers will taper off unless rates in FKK clubs reach 250 EUR per hour.

Not sure that fly in North American or Asian business alone will keep a single one of these FKKs open. Its only the very hard up who would pay Euro 150 or Euro 200 per hour. Did you seriously mention Euro 250 per hour! You were joking right? Certainly no locals or Europeans in any sort of number will pay these prices and remember the Canadians have been smart enough not to completely wreck their sex industry. So they wont be coming for those prices! FKK and Sauna Clubs will consequently close.

2. Belgian, French, British, Italian, and Dutch may have already tapered off slightly. They can get decent sessions from white WGs in their home country for much less than the Americans, so I believe customers from the aforementioned countries would just stay in their home countries to monger (assuming the price/quality for pay sex in their home country has remained stable).

Agreed. They will all stay at home and the locals will also not come. Just ask them if they would be prepared to pay Euro 150 or Euro 200 per hour! Locals will look at you as if you have two heads! FKK and Sauna clubs will consequently close.

3. Spanish will continue to NOT come. Their pay sex has always offered comparable price / quality to Deutschland, and that is probably why I have never met a Spanish monger in the FKK.

I have occasionally met some Spanish FKK customers. I agree that they are not as common as Belgian, Dutch, British or Italian. Probably more common than Irish though! Along with North Americans, East Asians and Irish, the Spanish won't keep the FKKs open and certainly not come for Euro 150 or Euro 200 per hour. Did you also mention Euro 250 per hour! You were kidding right!? Just you North American guys prepared to hand over the mulah and pay for trans Atlantic flights! Oh yes and some East Asian guys as well who have a thing for Caucasian ladies!

4. Germans will continue to attend because FKKs are local to them. But perhaps only to the point that their basic sexual needs are met. They may not motivated to spend more than they have to if they are not getting bargains. Also, they are likely exploring other forms of paid sex available in Germany.

The locals won't be visiting FKK and Sauna Clubs in any number if prices rise to Euro 150 or Euro 200 per hour. FKK and Sauna clubs will consequently close. Ask any German and he will tell you! Should be easy to find one they are more common than Spanish! Its no wonder so many locals despise foreign sex tourists! Why not log onto a German FKK Forum and ask them will they pay Euro 150 or Euro 200 per hour and you will get your answer. Did you also mention Euro 250 per hour! Jeez you guys are a Romanian pimps wet dream!

Yes indeed, I may be a jaded curmudgeon. But I don't live in dreamland or is that the USA where you dream about sex in other peoples countries because you have wrecked your own! In fact the US is so pussy whipped that websites such as this cannot even be hosted in the country and have to be based in Europe. As we say in the old country "Sorry for your troubles". But dont do a Donald Trump and take out your problems on us poor Europeans

[Kosher Kowboy]

3. Spanish will continue to NOT come. Their pay sex has always offered comparable price / quality to Deutschland, and that is probably why I have never met a Spanish monger in the FKK.
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Very good impressive observation as I have mentioned the same to many folks. I have never met one either although I am sure ' one or more' have ventured over the years but I have to agree, unless they want the club atmosphere they have no reason to come. Spain has everything from an active street scene to seedy and upscale brothels and agency girls and indies to fancy clubs and a slew of personal ads on top of some great message boards; Barcelona's being the one of the best in the world that I have come across. It even has a ' cheap charlie' forum within the format for those who only want to pay less than 100 euro an hour and great 50-60 e options. Slum it or live it up or anything in between. Ukrainian, Russian, E European, many Romanians, Mexicans, Central Americans and South Americans are all there as are plenty of Asians and Arabians and any type of woman, age, size, beauty etc. They also have AO forums and a huge percentage of the girls bareback as well. Spain is my escape hatch should prices in Germany dictate a move over there.

But they don't have the Gypsies or an adequate day care center to my liking so Germany and you guys are stuck with me for now!!



The above message was approved by the Spanish Foreign Ministry and the Spanish Department of Tourism for publication.

[Sirioja]

You must travel a lot of kilometers. Hope you will find your new Eve (before New Year's Eve).

I m pretty sure nobody works like me, to find and build Eves. I would be happy to find the sophisticated, natural beauty with good manners and GFE behavior, new one, to go only for her. Seems more real like this, in my mind.

Not found at Venus, nor Freudenhaus, but I keep on working hard.

[McAdonis]

You do notice the more sharky nature of the Frankfurt clubs when you move away from the Hessen area (and to some extent when you also move away from Dusseldorf NRW) and visit second tier FKK and Sauna Clubs where you won't necessarily have the same quality level of casting but where your euros will probably go further and where demands for optional extras are less frequent. There can be more fun to be had and more bang for your buck or euro away from Frankfurt but overall throughout FKK Land the price of pussy has increased whilst at the same time the amount of fun to be had is less. I think this is a reason why the numbers visiting FKK and Sauna clubs are generally down.

You might get dismissed by some as a jaded, curmudgeon who was spoiled by the "good old days". You are stuck living in the past!

Some fly-in mongers, particularly the more inexperienced ones, are obsessed with optics. So moving away from Hessen to smaller clubs might result in disappointing visits for them.

If "effective pricing" in FKK clubs continues to increase as Jnpr predicts:

1. Americans and Asians will still fly into DE. The price for comparable white WGs in their home countries is minimum five times the price. So I don't think these mongers will taper off unless rates in FKK clubs reach 250 EUR per hour.

2. Belgian, French, British, Italian, and Dutch may have already tapered off slightly. They can get decent sessions from white WGs in their home country for much less than the Americans, so I believe customers from the aforementioned countries would just stay in their home countries to monger (assuming the price/quality for pay sex in their home country has remained stable).

3. Spanish will continue to NOT come. Their pay sex has always offered comparable price / quality to Deutschland, and that is probably why I have never met a Spanish monger in the FKK.

4. Germans will continue to attend because FKKs are local to them. But perhaps only to the point that their basic sexual needs are met. They may not motivated to spend more than they have to if they are not getting bargains. Also, they are likely exploring other forms of paid sex available in Germany.

[Pistons]

Well optically sharks was a bit below average for me, white Oase was above average in optics. However, upsells were slightly down at sharks compared to this last winter, while it was slightly up at Oase.