German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[NNC1701]

After spending some time in FKKs recently I don't think this could ever work in the USA. Germany is a very civilized society. You would figure a lot of douchebags in America would ruin a good thing very quickly.

Considering the tipping and bragging culture, it would quickly become prohibitively expensive for the general public, because fat spoiled rich lovesick brats would try to outbid each other in paying more than the going rate in order to demonstrate how rich they are.

[Polyamorist]

Any attempt to challenge a prostitution law on the basis of the law's interference with one's Constitutional right to the "pursuit of happiness" will only get one laughed at in court. Sorry.

Na-uzo-billah! You may be right, but it shows how far the country has slid from its founding principles.

Take the admirable Benjamin Franklin. At only 18 he was sick enough of Ye-Olde-Sex-Prison-USA to make the arduous trip to Europe. From his teens to his seventies he cavorted in the RLDs of Paris and London. The brothels of those days were more like FKKs than brothels as we know them, because you could hang out and mingle a lot. An avid blogger, Ben Franklin would be 100% behind Phallus's idea to have an American FKK were he alive today. Though in practise, like me he would probably continue to favour sophisticated European beauties over Louisiana skanks.

"God grant, that not only the Love of Liberty, but a thorough Knowledge of the Rights of Man, may pervade all the Nations of the Earth, so that a Philosopher may set his Foot anywhere on its Surface, and say, 'This is my Country. '.

Thomas Jefferson was less interested in what the envious call "sex tourism". For the most part he preferred to stay in Virginia and contented himself with fucking the brains out of his slavegirl Sally -- every day, alles ohne, for about 20 years.

But both of them were so committed to this principle of the "Pursuit of Happiness" that they made sure it got into the Declaration of Independence, not as a footnote but right up there in the first few lines.

[Ortos]

Mainly rich / drunk / entitled guys and frat boys.

Sorry to inform you: But you are now banned from White House Press Briefings, because of your obvious reference to the President in your statement quoted above.

Have a nice day.

[ExpatLover]

After spending some time in FKKs recently I don't think this could ever work in the USA. Germany is a very civilized society. You would figure a lot of douchebags in America would ruin a good thing very quickly.

Obviously this can only work with educated and civilized guys, unfortunately a long way to go for numerous US guys but not only it is also true for the guys who are not eating pork.

[Member #4722]

Like some religious zealots?

Mainly rich / drunk / entitled guys and frat boys.

[Lefeu]

After spending some time in FKKs recently I don't think this could ever work in the USA. Germany is a very civilized society. You would figure a lot of douchebags in America would ruin a good thing very quickly.

Like some religious zealots?

[Member #4722]

After spending some time in FKKs recently I don't think this could ever work in the USA. Germany is a very civilized society. You would figure a lot of douchebags in America would ruin a good thing very quickly.

[Mongerer88]

My understanding is that FOSTA is being challenged Constitutionally, but that takes a while. One problem is that several groups shut things down because of it, including symposiums that were merely discussing sex work and providing resources to the hundreds of thousands of sex workers, but the government may argue that the cases should continue because FOSTA was never applicable to them. This is a trend in lawmaking, including Canada's version of the Nordic Model. Pass a ridiculously broad law and then never enforce it. Difficult for a court to hear a challenge to a law if a clearly damaged (arrested) party doesn't exist. But the mere existence of the unenforceable law with draconian penalties intimidates many from possibly running afoul of it. It is Orwellian.

There actually was a short-held belief that a Pursuit of Happiness argument would legalize prostitution throughout the country after a decision, I think it was the Martin case, held that two guys had the right to commit sodomy upon each other. A policemen went to arrest one of them on another charge, encountered homosexual sodomy, and also cited them for that. The Court held that they had a Constitutional right to sodomize each other.

There was a ton of writing that this principle would apply to consensual adult prostitution, but the argument went down in flames. The government has an enormous right to regulate commerce, and prostitution is commerce. You really can't sell what you can give away for free if the government says so, because the selling is commerce. The other argument presented is that significant trafficking exists in prostitution, so it is different than private sodomy. Most of us think that is a myth, but it may have swayed the courts more than we realize. There is also more of a public aspect to prostitution since it is often advertised and it has been argued that makes it different than private sodomy.

After these arguments were rejected following the sodomy case, the court outlook in the US seems pretty grim. As others have mentioned, state legislatures are free to regulate prostitution by legalizing it, but those efforts have failed.

As I have mentioned several times, the police largely leave a large section of the industry alone, and that is the section of the market where most of the transactions occur. But it is the farthest away from an organized FKK style system you can get. It involves two people contacting each other and privately making an arrangement. The German FKK system involves a tremendous number of people being involved long before a condomed penis goes in a vagina, and that just doesn't seem to be the current trend elsewhere in the world, especially the USA.

[UltraHappy]

I meant to ask literally about that phrase, "the Pursuit of Happiness". How many cases have been brought before the US Supreme Court defending it?

I see that the Pursuit of Happiness is only priority number 3 in the Constitution, but that's still not bad. For example, it's not "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Cash. "

If you go to the link I provided and type in the phrase "in the pursuit of happiness," in quotes, you will see that there are 95 US Supreme Court cases that mention the "pursuit of happiness. " This will provide some nice leisurely reading for you the next time you are on the beach.

Challenging a law on the basis that the law interferes with one's "pursuit of happiness" is in general not successful as the burden that a government must show to be able to regulate within those areas within its jurisdiction is very low.

States regulate prostitution on the basis of their "police power" and the Federal government regulates prostitution on the basis of its "Commerce Clause" power (that is, trafficking women across state lines for the purpose of prostitution). The Federal Government right to regulate prostitution that occurs across state lines derives from the Commerce Clause, which is one of the enumerated powers delegated to the Federal government in the US Constitution. The Eleventh Amendment states that all powers not delegated to the Federal Government remain with the States, hence the right of the States to regulate within their "police powers. ".

Any attempt to challenge a prostitution law on the basis of the law's interference with one's Constitutional right to the "pursuit of happiness" will only get one laughed at in court. Sorry.

[Polyamorist]

There are quite a lot of US Supreme Court opinions dealing with prostitution in some fashion.

Shukram (thanks) Sayyid Happy, but my question didn't mention prostitution. I meant to ask literally about that phrase, "the Pursuit of Happiness". How many cases have been brought before the US Supreme Court defending it?

If the answer is zero, in modern legal practice is this now classed as a partially alienable right, a fully alienable right, or what?

I see that the Pursuit of Happiness is only priority number 3 in the Constitution, but that's still not bad. For example, it's not "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Cash. " That would suggest that stuffing tight 19-year old Romanian pussy is a bigger right even than investing in stocks and bonds. Which leaves me baffled as to how FOSTA got out the door without a constitutional challenge.

[Bfsie]

... to the extent that prostitution is not legal at the national level but is legal in a specific state like NV, it is clear that our justice system has taken the stance this is a state matter, and that precedent has been set. Courts, especially the conservative high court we currently have as UH said don't like to legislate but interpret and rule on established law, and unless the law is changed at the national level, we are not likely to have nationwide legal prostitution through courts alone.

As for state legislatures OK'ing prostitution NV is a special case. Smaller state, somewhat libertarian mindset of the population, etc. I think it is only possible in similar such states. Something in the West, sparsely populated where the people have more libertarian view points. East of Mississippi this is almost impossible in my view. Perhaps Montana, or Wyoming or some other state like that? I don't know how it will be any different or better than what we already have in NV at the moment. So, I come back to the view that US is unlikely to see development of FKK style systems for at least dozens of years. May be with an entirely different generations of people in future?

I agree with you.

[Mongerer88]

Even in Nevada, prostitution is only legal in a limited county. For example, even though WGs are plentiful in Vegas or Reno, don't get caught soliciting. As for the possibility of Montana or Wyoming, I think that you are off base as these areas are still quite red, even given the heavy migration from crowded states like California. I think I will settle down in Washington or Oregon and start the campaign. It has to be in a poor county outside the major city economic sphere and run the campaign at the county level instead of state or national. Then if it passes I will start a club using the German model.

I believe you will go quite bankrupt.

For guys who like the comfort of legality, they can get to Germany or similar foreign place as easily as some place in rural Montana or Wyoming.

Most USA Mongers have been finding the online webpage of an independent escort, giving her screening information, and booking a session with her for years. Phallus's description of how to be sure she isn't the police was overboard. The police don't send undercover cops into the room's of johns, and they don't set up a webpage of a fake escort and run it for years, and they definitely don't (and can't) use an existing escort and deputize her to go do a regular session and arrest the guy afterward. What is shown on be movies isn't realistic. Stings involving guys involve new, fake, low-price ads, with lots of obvious solicitation, no screening, and the arrest made after he walks into a room full of cops after committing solicitation on the phone and via text / email. They have no trouble finding guys who fall for it, though.

These ladies make a lot of money because their rates are high, and they ain't going to Montana or Wyoming. To get the guys who have been refusing to participate in the high-priced, screening-heavy illegal system and instead traveling to Europe, Canada, Tijuana, various places in South America, etc. , you have to give him low-prices and similar service to hit the back roads to Wyoming. Your new local law is going to likely have a lot of restrictions on what they can offer, including mandatory CBJs that no one is going to feel confident will be ignored. The American independent prostitutes aren't going to head out west in covered wagons to work at your new place for less than they make now, so good luck getting the federal government and even that local county to let you bring in ladies from Venezuela and Cuba and other places south of the border to work. Now a thinking man would recognize that distributing the wealth back to those poor countries is a good idea, but that has not been the way of thinking in the USA For a long time, if ever. And if "legality" occurred in this USA County due to terrible future economic conditions, as some have suggested, that anti-immigrant sentiment would be even stronger.

Sorry. It is just not going to work. If you like the legal German FKK system, go there. It hasn't been successfully replicated in countries a lot more welcoming to prostitution than the USA In fairness, you would have to admit that having a lot of primarily immigrant women walk around naked and work for relatively low wages (by western world standards) and live at the facility isn't exactly a public relations bonanza. If the many countries that largely decriminalize prostitution, including the United Kingdom and much of Western Europe and some of Latin America, will not accept this model, there is no way a country with full criminalization will take that kind of leap.

[Member #4581]

Even in Nevada, prostitution is only legal in a limited county. For example, even though WGs are plentiful in Vegas or Reno, don't get caught soliciting. As for the possibility of Montana or Wyoming, I think that you are off base as these areas are still quite red, even given the heavy migration from crowded states like California. I think I will settle down in Washington or Oregon and start the campaign. It has to be in a poor county outside the major city economic sphere and run the campaign at the county level instead of state or national. Then if it passes I will start a club using the German model.

No one is off base as your guess is as good or as bad as mine. At this point, it is all guesswork since it is illegal in all states except NV which is not exactly deep blue either. And Dems win heavily in Clark county NV where prostitution is illegal but GOP wins by huge margins in all the rural thinly populated counties of NV which is where brothels are located.

It is not about being red or blue but being libertarian. The mountain and plains northwestern states tend to be libertarian. "Your business is yours, mine is mine".

The redness of those states in the West is quite a different hue of red from the Bible thumping red states of SC or Bama. Also, those states are sparsely populated, and it is easier to get a movement started and petitions signed. Will not happen in big (blue or red) states which are full of families, white collar suburbanites, and easily offended folks of all stripes.

[Mr Ho]

I believe the interest groups and social workers were the ones in DE and NL that triggered legislative action. This ultimately led to the legalization of prostitution. Their motivation was to improve the working conditions of WGs. Stop pimping. Stop trafficking. They considered it a human rights issue. Just as is the case whenever a marginalized group is exploited.

In return or as a result it benefited us mongers as well state.

[BaltiX]

We have a better chance of seeing the OWO ban overturned in DE or repeal of Swedish model that bans sex purchase than see the US legalize prostitution in next few decades, but anything possible. Keep in mind that prostitution has been illegal in USA for well over a century outside of Nevada.