General Info

[WestCoast1]

52.2 recently, the pesos-USD exchange in Manila. Found also 52.6 later.

[Engine Driver]

Ethiopian airlines is a well respected airline that has a history of high standards in maintenance and purchasing modern quality aircraft. They fly extensively into Europe where regulators are very strict on the standards airlines maintain. Boeing installed a shoddy system with minimal information and training. The aircraft have been sold extensively around the world so don't know what your point is about supposedly shithole countries.

Unless you've been living in a cave, you would agree that shithole countries have lower standards of training and certification. You can also use family connections and money to get a set of shiny aviator wings to fasten to your lapel. You can fake your log book hours. The 737 Max was particularly appealing as those shithole countries didn't need to spend more money on additional training. The bean counters would have been pleased.

The stabilizer trim runaway issue is something that all pilots should be able to cope with if they've been properly trained. No point in blaming Boeing. No western or Chinese pilot had a problem with the 737 Max.

[Shining Wit]

That is low. In the US, a pilot needs 1500 hours before being hired as a First Officer on a regional jet (although it is somewhat lower if he went through an approved flight academy).

I'm now reading that the Captain never did his MAX training. Couple that with an FO that is all assholes and elbows, and a poorly designed stall prevention system, and you have a chain of errors leading to a hull loss.

Don't British Airways and Lufthansa still run their ab initio pilot programmes? Open to correction, but I think that 200 hours is the minimum for a Multi-crew Pilots Licence (according to Wiki the European authorities issue these) which allows commercial flying as a First Officer, with conversion to a full Air Transport Pilot Licence after a further 500 hours on a multi-crew aircraft.

Again, according to Wiki (I know) the US 1500 hours can be done instructing, para-dropping or similar in small aircraft and the flight check for an ATPL can also be done on a single engine. After that, subject to a type-rating, they are legally qualified to be First Officer on a B747.

1500 hours was a knee jerk Congressional reaction to the Colgan Airways crash near Buffalo NY. Both pilots had well over 1500 hours, but the captain had a spotty record and the First Officer commuted from her parents home in Seattle, because she could not live in New York base on her salary of, at that time, probably USD 20/25000.

With regard to ED's rant, one shitehole airline tried to get a common type rating for the 737-300 (1st flight 1984) 737-700 and 800 (Next Generation) and 737-700 and 800 MAX. This cheapskate airline is HQd in Dallas TX and is called Southwest.

[SaltyPete]

I know what you mean. When the MCAS has to tell the Autopilot how to fly then that would be a worry.

Will be interesting to hear the facts of the event. The co-pilot had 200 hours. In commercial airline terms that is so low.

That is low. In the US, a pilot needs 1500 hours before being hired as a First Officer on a regional jet (although it is somewhat lower if he went through an approved flight academy).

I'm now reading that the Captain never did his MAX training. Couple that with an FO that is all assholes and elbows, and a poorly designed stall prevention system, and you have a chain of errors leading to a hull loss.

[GDreams]

It's interesting to note that only airlines from shithole countries like Indonesia and Ethiopia have managed to crash a 737 Max. Boeing marketed the 737 Max on the basis that no additional simulator time was needed for pilots when changing over from the 737-800. The only requirement was that pilots watch a 50 minute video on their iPad. This video didn't even cover the new MCAS. Most of the sales of the 737 Max have been to shithole countries with India, Mexico, Indonesia, China and Ethiopia being the largest buyers. The fact that shithole airlines didn't need to install a new simulator and converting pilots didn't need five rides with a check captain meant huge cost savings.

Ethiopian airlines is a well respected airline that has a history of high standards in maintenance and purchasing modern quality aircraft. They fly extensively into Europe where regulators are very strict on the standards airlines maintain. Boeing installed a shoddy system with minimal information and training. The aircraft have been sold extensively around the world so don't know what your point is about supposedly shithole countries.

[BrainDrain]

Actually, the MCAS only activates with the autopilot disengaged.

I know what you mean. When the MCAS has to tell the Autopilot how to fly then that would be a worry.

Will be interesting to hear the facts of the event. The co-pilot had 200 hours. In commercial airline terms that is so low.

In the Philippines context, how do those young Cebu Pacific and PAL guys get experience? There is bugger all civil aviation industry. In Australia the young guns go west to the outback, or go get their hours in the mountains of PNG. I'm sure similar in ISA and Europe.

[SaltyPete]

The theory is that many of these third world pilots flying for fast growing foreign airlines lack the experience of their counterparts in the WEST because they learned to fly mostly in simulators not in real planes. Thus, they do not have sufficient number of hours actual flight time and most particularly with these new Boeings.

Since most of the time a modern commercial jet will practically fly itself, this is not an issue, but on rare occasions when a problem or conflict with the software arises, especially on takeoff, as may very likely have been the case with these 2 recent Boeing crashes where quite likely an unlucky, inexperienced pilot who was not proficient enough or confident enough to know that he should have just turned off the god damn automatic pilot and flown the plane himself until the problem was over, thus avoiding the crash, which is exactly what most experienced Western pilots would of, could of easily done.

This has nothing to do with race. It is about training and the number of hours of actual flight time pilots receive before they are allowed to sit in the cockpit of a commercial jet carrying hundreds of people. Grounding the plane until this issue is settled is a good thing and will most likely save lives although it was/is highly unlikely any of these new Boeings would have crashed flying domestic US routes for the reason stated above.

Of course this is just a theory. Boeing will figure it out and in a year or two we may all be flying this plane into MNL.

Actually, the MCAS only activates with the autopilot disengaged. There are two switches on the throttle pedestal to cut out the electric trim, which is what the MCAS uses to trim the nose down.

If you are ever Jumpseat on a MAX, now you know.

[Member #4698]

Well, to be fair, the Lion Air Captain was Indian and not Indonesian. The Ethiopian Airline Captain looks Kenyan. I am not sure but google is your friend. Indian Airline pilots got a bad reputation because it was said that some pilots paper cockpit windows with newspapers to block out the sun during flight. .

The theory is that many of these third world pilots flying for fast growing foreign airlines lack the experience of their counterparts in the WEST because they learned to fly mostly in simulators not in real planes. Thus, they do not have sufficient number of hours actual flight time and most particularly with these new Boeings.

Since most of the time a modern commercial jet will practically fly itself, this is not an issue, but on rare occasions when a problem or conflict with the software arises, especially on takeoff, as may very likely have been the case with these 2 recent Boeing crashes where quite likely an unlucky, inexperienced pilot who was not proficient enough or confident enough to know that he should have just turned off the god damn automatic pilot and flown the plane himself until the problem was over, thus avoiding the crash, which is exactly what most experienced Western pilots would of, could of easily done.

This has nothing to do with race. It is about training and the number of hours of actual flight time pilots receive before they are allowed to sit in the cockpit of a commercial jet carrying hundreds of people. Grounding the plane until this issue is settled is a good thing and will most likely save lives although it was/is highly unlikely any of these new Boeings would have crashed flying domestic US routes for the reason stated above.

Of course this is just a theory. Boeing will figure it out and in a year or two we may all be flying this plane into MNL.

[WestCoast1]

Hence Trump telling Boeing he was going to cancel the 5 Billion new AirFoxxeOXX and creating a lot of tension.

Did not understand, can you background AirFox thing and explain that some?

[Bushes]

That was an issue pointed out by Bloomberg or WSJ. The previous admin moved the FAA inspectors to literally under Boeing's roof and staff. Hence Trump telling Boeing he was going to cancel the 5 Billion new AirFoxxeOXX and creating a lot of tension.

If I was the FAA,
Sorry for the detour!

[Bushes]

Well, to be fair, the Lion Air Captain was Indian and not Indonesian. The Ethiopian Airline Captain looks Kenyan. I am not sure but google is your friend. Indian Airline pilots got a bad reputation because it was said that some pilots paper cockpit windows with newspapers to block out the sun during flight. I remember a picture of a cockpit windows covered up and a captain with his bare feet up. Actually very hard to do.

It's interesting to note that only airlines from shithole countries like Indonesia and Ethiopia have managed to crash a 737 Max. Boeing marketed the 737 Max on the basis that no additional simulator time was needed for pilots when changing over from the 737-800. The only requirement was that pilots watch a 50 minute video on their iPad. This video didn't even cover the new MCAS. Most of the sales of the 737 Max have been to shithole countries with India, Mexico, Indonesia, China and Ethiopia being the largest buyers. The fact that shithole airlines didn't need to install a new simulator and converting pilots didn't need five rides with a check captain meant huge cost savings.

[SaltyPete]

It's interesting to note that only airlines from shithole countries like Indonesia and Ethiopia have managed to crash a 737 Max. Boeing marketed the 737 Max on the basis that no additional simulator time was needed for pilots when changing over from the 737-800. The only requirement was that pilots watch a 50 minute video on their iPad. This video didn't even cover the new MCAS. Most of the sales of the 737 Max have been to shithole countries with India, Mexico, Indonesia, China and Ethiopia being the largest buyers. The fact that shithole airlines didn't need to install a new simulator and converting pilots didn't need five rides with a check captain meant huge cost savings.

I read today that a MAX Sim won't even be available until the end of the year. I understand that the MCAS system was an add-on after the test pilots found the aircraft had "unusual" stall characteristics. Boeing didn't expand on the details but it was bad enough for them to make a crappy add-on system, without fully disclosing the new system to the pilots. In hiding this information, it is apparent that Boeing values profit over safety. If I was the FAA, I'd make Simulator training on both the MAX deep stall envelope and the MCAS system mandatory before allowing the planes to fly again. Boeing would develop that simulator really quickly if it cut into deliveries.

You'd probably get 6-8 pilots qual-ed in a four hour sim session.

Sorry for the detour!

[Engine Driver]

I don't know of too many planes designed for level flight in a "nose down" position, except maybe the Concorde. Heck, I think even superman usually flies "nose up". Maybe ironman too.

There was a news article that mentioned qualifying from 733 to max required one hour simulation on an iPad. I sure hope they were not using the same app I am.

It's interesting to note that only airlines from shithole countries like Indonesia and Ethiopia have managed to crash a 737 Max. Boeing marketed the 737 Max on the basis that no additional simulator time was needed for pilots when changing over from the 737-800. The only requirement was that pilots watch a 50 minute video on their iPad. This video didn't even cover the new MCAS. Most of the sales of the 737 Max have been to shithole countries with India, Mexico, Indonesia, China and Ethiopia being the largest buyers. The fact that shithole airlines didn't need to install a new simulator and converting pilots didn't need five rides with a check captain meant huge cost savings.

[Bushes]

I don't know of too many planes designed for level flight in a "nose down" position, except maybe the Concorde. Heck, I think even superman usually flies "nose up". Maybe ironman too.

There was a news article that mentioned qualifying from 733 to max required one hour simulation on an iPad. I sure hope they were not using the same app I am.

When they say the feature does a "nose down" that's relative to the current angle of attack. So if the aircraft is on it's way to stalling, it pushes forward to reduce the rate of climb. Pilots can override it, two of them (so far) just forget how.

[AussieGaigin]

You beat me too it! The grandmas working the flights today are the very same Party Stews from the 70's and 80's!

Used to do a bit of work with AA aircrew in Sydney a few years ago. Some looked like they had been recruited from a retirement home.

Scary part was some of them would hit me for dates. Guess the passengers weren't interested.