Kyiv

[Stevie69]

Perhaps we should move this conversation to the currency transaction discussion board. People might be asking.

Not always. I have seen places with entire spread below XE currency mid-market (what you call the real rate). In theory, someone could make a profit changing uah to dollars there, then changing back to uah somewhere else. But what happens is they simply refuse to change uah to dollars. Clever scam.

Almost as easy as checking spread size is to check mid-market rate on XE currency, then compare with uah buy rate. Should be off by only 1/10 uah.

[DramaFree11]

KEC should not be used under any circumstances, way too much money for those type of girls. The picture of the girl posted most guys could have for free or $100 max, if you have any game at all.

[Kozerog]

...whatever the spread, it always includes the "real" rate. The real rate is the rate you get on google, or XE, or transfer wise.

Not always. I have seen places with entire spread below XE currency mid-market (what you call the real rate). In theory, someone could make a profit changing uah to dollars there, then changing back to uah somewhere else. But what happens is they simply refuse to change uah to dollars. Clever scam.

Almost as easy as checking spread size is to check mid-market rate on XE currency, then compare with uah buy rate. Should be off by only 1/10 uah.

[PhotoSlider]

Just clarify, it is well known that KEC / Gia house cut is / was 60%, so girl gets 40%. Stated clearly at the recruiting agency website: https://www.aemal.org. House percentage for hidden agencies (agencies working mamba and tinder, relaxkiev, etc) is usually 50%, but they also hit girls with fines and other charges so that girls get less than 50% (which is why they hate those hidden agencies).

KEC also adjusted GIA progressive scale in an interesting way. Take a look at their discounts, currently running:

https://kievescort.club/girl/eva14

1 hour $200 regular, no discount. About 5000 UAH / hour with the girl getting 40% = 2000 UAH.

2 hours $300 regular, $250 after discount = $125/ hour.

3 hours $350 regular. $300 after discount = $100/ hour.

10 hours $750 regular. $700 after discount = $70/ hour, translating into about 1800 UAH / hour.

As they say, "the more you pay, the more you save".

Paying in UAH, as Stevie69 suggests, makes it even better. Discount starts right away:

1 hour 5 K UAH regular, 4 K UAH after discount. With the girl getting 40% = 1600 UAH.

2 hours 7 K UAH regular, 6 K UAH after discount = 3 K UAH / hour.

3 hours 9 K UAH regular. 8 K UAH after discount = 2. 7 K UAH / hour.

10 hours 16 K UAH regular. 15 K UAH after discount = 1500 UAH / hour.

50 USD or 1 K UAH discount is applied only once, and not progressively.

And the girl herself IMHO is average. 156 cm = 5'4", smokes, 26 years old on paper, maybe older in reality, has an OK list of offerings, and seems overweight even on photo-shopped pictures.

For 15 K UAH paid to KEC after 10 hours with mediocre girl, one can have 7-10 hourly girls, with at least 3 to 5 of them being better than Eva.

Surely there are much more attractive KEC ladies, but they are never discounted, and are not readily available. As a result, despite the progressive scale and occasional discounts, KEC doesn't make sense anymore, especially with significantly lower quality of service since May 2018 police bust.

Stevie leaves out an important metric while mentioning 1500-2500 UAH range. I assume his quotes are not per hour, but rather per one meeting with indie from Mamba, etc. Mamba girls and indies from other resources usually establish price per meeting, not an hour. Either way that's how we should negotiate it, in UAH, and definitely not per an hour, but rather per multiple hours.

One of my favorites agreed to 1 K UAH per an hour, and to me she is better than even the best GIA girls that I had before finding her. I never pay her more than 5 K UAH, even when we stay together for 7-9 hours. I do provide good wine and very good food + entertainment. This all adds up quickly, even though she prefers not to stay overnight. Fortunately she likes what we do together, and lately we started meeting without direct payments for her services, sometimes without sex, sometimes with, I greatly enjoy her company regardless.

Other regulars staying with me for multiple days incur wining+dining and entertainment also get 3-5 K UAH per visit departure envelop without discussing or even opening it. There is also occasional shopping or beauty salon services, but nothing outrageous, definitely no jewelry. Those girls that objected going to fast food like "Puzata Hata" when time is of essence, have been terminated. I do eat home frequently, and certainly enjoy good romantic dinner at the fancy restaurant.

Warning, I am digressing now and going on the tangent. The following is somewhat relevant to competitive nature of Ukrainian ladies that Stevie69 mentions. Anyway:

One thing I strongly despise is a dinner that I know will not end up in bed, when I want that to happen. Even if it's not a scam, and I can afford it, I detest being treated as an ATM. I do not mind at all paying for my GFs, when it's all good fun, when we are staying together, or I run into them and invite. But being invited to a date with a single reason to pay is above my level of tolerance.

One of my all time favorites has been retired this June precisely for trying to lure and milk me. I had great relationship with her 2-3 years ago, and she's a true beauty in many ways. We met again in May, despite my intuition telling me not to. Subconsciously I didn't pursue her aggressively, didn't ask for dates, as she has countless admirers, and I decided not to be one of many hundreds of begging males around her Instagram. That intrigued her, because she is used to being chased after.

First she sent me few beautifully edited pictures of herself walking around Kiev. I didn't react as expected. She started inviting me.

First dinner was at the very fancy place of her choice. She did say that there are much more expensive places in Kiev, and to her credit kept the menu choices reasonable. We even shared plates, but there was no chemistry between us, she noticeably changed, became more calculating. I stayed calm, because my mind was with couple other much more willing and better behaving ladies. But I still remember how sweet her pussy was in many ways, and how skillful she was in bed. Surprisingly it didn't affect my decision making, and she didn't suck any energy out of me this time.

She invited me again after I didn't contact her for couple days. I insisted on fast food "Puzata Hata", we certainly ate there before during her University days. She didn't object. Next day she smiled and said we can do better.

Next one was fancy, expensive, very romantic, lots and lots photos of her were taken, as she has a selfie addiction and hypertrophied narcissism. We grew closer to each other, certainly my vanity was satisfied. That's where I should have stopped, but she is a great actress masterfully pushing all the right buttons. I do not remember which is one of seven deadly sins, Vanity or Pride, and she surely fed mine well.

I kept going out with other girls, two of them at different times staying at my place, and others going in and out. Life was great, except the above Lady in Question (let's call her Elizabeth) wanted to be treated as a Princess, going to Theaters, receiving expensive gifts and most importantly unwavering attention. I didn't comply. That's when she switched to full frontal attack, and asked why I do not invite her to Theater. I explained that I am busy with business meetings. Indeed I was busy with 20 years old music college student, who was departing at 5 pm, while at 5:30 pm another beauty was expected at Mafia restaurant. The latter one I already had the pleasure to have in my arms, and appreciate how vigorously she loves to fuck despite being only 19.

It was Sunday afternoon and bored Elizabeth asked me straight via Viber if we can go to Theater. My 19 years old wasn't fully confirmed, and I decided on keeping Elizabeth as a backup option, telling her maybe. That's where her high self-esteem and many years of playing love games went into full gear. She countered with a demand of telling her yes or no, otherwise she would go to visit her parents in suburbs. I replied sure, go as you please. She wasn't satisfied, asking if I already bought the tickets, and can she go with her mom instead if I cannot. I laughed detecting a cock / pussy-blocking maneuver. She was trying to eliminate the rival that she implicitly sensed, but not yet asked about. That's when I made up my mind, and said again yes please go see your parents, I have no tickets. But I already had them.

Then another drama played out with 19 years old no-show, I sold great tickets at half cost to two different dressed-up older ladies in their 50's, the first of them tried to insist on me going with her. I declined. Then no-show materialized out of thin air, and I bought almost the same tickets, losing only about 100 UAH.

Forgive my rant and too much detail. If you are already bored, please stop reading.

Next day we spent few hours together with Elizabeth, drinking wine from plastic glasses on the bench in one of the downtown parks and laughing enjoying each other company. She asked even more openly why I do not take her to Theater anymore. We used to go in the past every few days many many times. That's how we met in the first place. I explained that tonight I am busy, and tomorrow Monday there are no performances. Let's go to cinema then, was her immediate response. I ignored, and foolishly suggested Tuesday. So, I left Maria, my faithful and very accommodating girlfriend at our apartment yet again, and went to Theater, dressed in decent jeans, black T-shirt and Ralph Lauren blazer. Elizabeth showed up in all her Glory, semi-transparent classy dress, push up bra, six inch stiletto high heels, hair-do, eyelashes and more. She criticized my outfit, because in the past she used to choose my shirts for going out, even ironed them. These 2-3 years certainly made her more jaded and motivated in a particular way. I laughed and explained that the ushers will let me in as I am.

During the performance she grew more and more affectionate, thanked me, said how much she liked what she watched on the stage. Performance was definitely outstanding. We had the best seats, and I was thinking how to get away from her and return to my Maria waiting at the apartment only a block away.

Why stupid me got myself into this predicament? Can not blame Elizabeth, as she couldn't agree with me not fully appreciating her beauty. That's why she said let's go have a dinner after the show. So we did. I texted Maria saying that I am getting delayed. Maria sent back hearts and kisses and asking not to worry, finish what I had to do, and she has no problem.

Restaurant was sufficiently upscale. Again, Elizabeth didn't choose the most expensive items, it was decent though. I had good tea, she shared her glass of Chardonnay with me. And just when I thought it was over, she turned and asked:

- Let's go to your place now, and have some champagne! You have some left, don't you?

For many days she avoided inviting me to her downtown apartment. Maybe that was the condition dictated by her sponsor, maybe something else. I never went to girls places before cautiously avoiding meeting their significant others and such. Yet this time my answer was:

- Let's go to yours instead.

That's when I saw how short her fuse is. She walked out sternly, and said good-bye. I politely insisted on taking her home in the cab, as it was only 10 minutes ride. Upon arrival I apologized and explained that I couldn't even dream about staying with her, and that unfortunately I cannot tonight. She was visibly displeased, but mostly behaved. Kiev ladies have class. She did accuse me of doing all this on purpose. I do not know how much of this drama was played, and how much was sincere. Obviously her ego was hurt by losing significant source of income and fun, and I was an idiot for taking the matters that far. I suggested meeting tomorrow, and she said yeah right when you become free from your obligations.

I arrived home completely exhausted. Elizabeth sent me a nasty good night:

- Have an energetic and restless one!

Maria went out to meet my cab outside in the new lovely dress I haven't seen before radiating with smiles and I thought what a lucky man I am to have her, and why do I create these problems out of nothing? We went around the corner to Avalon, and after an hour or two I eventually returned back to life.

Next day was full of pure happiness and joy with Maria. She is one of those Ukrainian ladies enjoying life, not asking any unnecessary questions, ready to join me any time, but not submissive at all, there's good dignity in her for sure. I prefer dealing with equal partners.

We had few conversations with Elizabeth after I departed from Kiev. We do have certain arrangements that we carry on regardless. She didn't quite kick me out completely, yet the trust that we managed to build this May has been damaged significantly. I am happy to know that she is not bitter at all. She is strong and smart young lady with good manners and firmly set objectives in life.

What is the conclusion?

Kiev ladies are very competitive and know the game inside out, as that's their primary occupation.

I should have had more respect for both Elizabeth and Maria. After all they are Human Beings.

Keep it simple, gentlemen. Do not let your ladies overlap too much.

[Stevie69]

I respectfully disagree, and agree.

Yes, changing your left over UAH back into USD is more difficult. (1) Some places may not have small bills, as we all change 100's only. Some places may have 50's and less likely, 20's, but you definitely should not expect to get 10's, 5's or 1's. (2) if you want to change money early in the day and on a weekend (say your flight is on noon on Sunday), you might be out of luck. You may have to check several places, and your last chance would be at the airport, where the rate is really bad.

So my strategy is not to change too much USD on my last two days or I may have to go home with a handful of useless UAHs, until the next time I visit. Second, I use only one place, where, by the time I change a little money back into USDs, I have been going daily and changing hundreds of USDs for a couple of weeks or more. They usually help as much as they can. Finally, I am okay with keeping as much as 500 UAH as I head to the airport, maybe buying a burger there, and leaving the rest in the "save the kids" charity box.

However, the reason why I look at the spread, not the actual rates, is that, whatever the spread, it always includes the "real" rate. The real rate is the rate you get on google, or XE, or transfer wise. If the spread is only 10 UAH cents (0.1 of about 25 UAH per USD, or about 0. 4%), they are making only 5 UAH cents on either side (that is 0.2 % on either side), so they cannot screw you too much. Places with a narrow spread change track the real rate more closely and change more often, or they could get screwed. Places with a wide spread have a larger buffer and do not need to check the real rate as often. If you trade currency professionally you will know that the rate changes per second, and the spread is minuscule.

One trick I noticed several years ago was that some places tried to trick unsuspecting foreigners. For example, if everyone had a rate of around 26.50 per USD, some places had the middle or the last two numbers transposed (25.60 or 26.05 per USD). Also not that at night, on weekends, and near arena city, the spread is larger.

If your bank does not charge too many extra fees for using your card in Ukraine, and the rate spread is small, and you trust Ukrainian ATMS's, then it is also an option, I suppose.

No! Exchange places that focus on converting from foreign currency to uah often refuse to exchange the other direction, using some flimsy excuse (they don't have enough foreign currency at the moment, you need receipts of some sort). So they can make the spread as small as they want but still give a terrible rate on buying uah. Ignore the spread and focus on the uah buy rate (more uah per dollar, the better).

Anyway, ATM cards should give good rates, 1% from mid-market for USA banks like Schwab or CapitalOne. Raiffeisen bank on Pyrohova near the University in central Kyiv has 6 ATMs stocked with nice crispy 500 uah notes. They charge a 50 uah fee per withdrawal, but you can withdraw 20000 uah at once, so fee is negligible percentage. Plus Schwab bank refunds ATM fees..

[Stevie69]

Sorry. Thank you for that out, which further supports my argument.

Regular girls, semi-pros, or even pros after that have developed a good rapport with you, should be happy with about 1500 to 2000 UAH.

Just clarify, it is well known that KEC / Gia house cut is / was 60%, so girl gets 40%. Stated clearly at the recruiting agency website: https://www.aemal.org. House percentage for hidden agencies (agencies working mamba and tinder, relaxkiev, etc) is usually 50%, but they also hit girls with fines and other charges so that girls get less than 50% (which is why they hate those hidden agencies).

[Kozerog]

prices you see on Kiev Escort Club (KEC-maybe the old GIA), which is an elite agency, range from 4 K to 6 K, but they include 50% for the house.

Just clarify, it is well known that KEC / Gia house cut is / was 60%, so girl gets 40%. Stated clearly at the recruiting agency website: https://www.aemal.org. House percentage for hidden agencies (agencies working mamba and tinder, relaxkiev, etc) is usually 50%, but they also hit girls with fines and other charges so that girls get less than 50% (which is why they hate those hidden agencies).

[Kozerog]

exchanged another $500 USD. I know a place with a good rate. Do not look at the exchange rate but rather at the buy-sell spread.

No! Exchange places that focus on converting from foreign currency to uah often refuse to exchange the other direction, using some flimsy excuse (they don't have enough foreign currency at the moment, you need receipts of some sort). So they can make the spread as small as they want but still give a terrible rate on buying uah. Ignore the spread and focus on the uah buy rate (more uah per dollar, the better).

Anyway, ATM cards should give good rates, 1% from mid-market for USA banks like Schwab or CapitalOne. Raiffeisen bank on Pyrohova near the University in central Kyiv has 6 ATMs stocked with nice crispy 500 uah notes. They charge a 50 uah fee per withdrawal, but you can withdraw 20000 uah at once, so fee is negligible percentage. Plus Schwab bank refunds ATM fees.

Finally, if you are a regular visitor to Kyiv, don't bother converting extra uah back to foreign currency, assuming just a small amount, as it should be if you planned well. Just save it for next time. Suppose you have 1000 uah excess, worth about $40. Even with 10% inflation between visits (actual inflation currently much less), you lose just $4.

[Stevie69]

Hello,

I have a quick report of Kiev. But first, I will deal with a few recent issues on this thread.

First, the naysayers. I do not understand. Maybe they are trying to keep you from visiting so you do not overpay and ruin the market. The best way to keep the prices down and the quality is to prevent newbies from coming and throwing around money like assholes. So, yes, it is really horrible in Ukraine!! Please stay home!

Second, there was a recent report of high numbers of girls over an entire month, with reasonable prices. If you know what you are doing, that will be your experience. I pay 1500 to 2000 UAH, and on rare occasions I can be persuaded to pay up to 2500 UAH. There is no reason to pay 3 K or 4 K or 5 K. There is no reason to pay in USD, or worse in USDs by the hundreds. The prices you see on Kiev Escort Club (KEC-maybe the old GIA), which is an elite agency, range from 4 K to 6 K, but they include 50% for the house. So, even your best fantasy girl costs only 3000 UAH.

Third, about the newbie going for one day, I think in September. It is unlikely that he will find anything good for a reasonable price. Whatever you do, do not tell the girls that you are leaving the next day. Tell them you are there for a month, and if she does not get a good vibe immediately, move on to the next girl. Just read the forum and get some insight, but if you are staying for one day, you will likely have to pay top dollar. Actually, top Grivna. Do not let them discuss prices in foreign currencies.

Fourth, about Caribbean Club. The only problems are (1) the overpriced and watered down drinks, and (2 Turkish sex tourists. They should change the name to Club Bosphorus (get it? It is in Turkey and it is body of water! Actually, I do not know their actual nationalities, as I did not check their passports, but that is how it looks to me. Anyway, they keep the prices high. However, the girls are fantastic; it is a great visual feast. They are overpriced, of course. I pointedly go with no intent to take out, but only to enjoy the view. You can chat with some girls, practice your negotiation skills, and learn to walk away. You can take a few numbers and call them during weekdays. When they go to the Caribbean, the competition forces them to invest a lot (cover charge, fancy dress, shoes, nails, hair, etc.), so they will charge you 50-100% more than on weekdays during the day.

Anyway, on to the report.

I was there for 3 weeks in June and July. I was there for 4 nights, then I had to go to a conference elsewhere in Europe for 5 days, and then I returned for another 2 weeks. I had a list of long-term pros (from marriage sites) and semi-pros (from previous trips). I had communicated with most of them and had various degree of commitment to meet and either have a coffee, or have a little more than just a coffee, respectively.

One of the first questions girls ask is how long I would be staying. I cannot figure why they ask that. They should all be willing to meet me as soon as possible, and if they like me, for as many times as possible afterwards. I give vague answers or just say a couple of weeks, even if it is my last day there and I am already packing or at the airport about to board my plane.

I told the girls that I met on the first round that I was going to Odessa for 5 days. I figure that built a little more pressure. During the second part of the trip, I spent a couple of nights in Dnipro, and one night in Zhytomyr.

Anyway, starting at the airport, I avoided the taxi sharks. I do not know what they charge, but I heard one guy shout 30 dollars (780 UAH! For comparison, Uber taxi costs 320 UAH. I had a girl look it up on my way back. Of course, the price might vary. This was from the centre to the airport, on a Monday, in the early afternoon. It is not the money; I truly hate being ripped off and thought of as a fool.

I headed straight for the money exchange. I only exchanged 20 USD. Bring USD, even if you use EUR. USDs are used more than EUROS, so the exchange spread is slightly tighter and there are more bills of different denominations circulating (more important when you want to exchange your left over UAH back into USD). Make sure this money is in your wallet. You do not want to go digging into your luggage for cash in the middle of the airport. I got a SIM card for 315 UAH form the pretty girl, tested it, and went to the airport shuttle area. While I waited, for only 15 minutes, I started contacting some girls and the apartment people. Make sure you come off the airplane with your phone fully charged!

I took it only to Kharkiv station (60 UAH), not because I am cheap, at least not only because I am cheap, but also because that metro took me directly 150 m from my apartment. Going to the train station (100 UAH) would have technically closer but taken as long in traffic, and still would have required a taxi or another metro ride with a transfer.

During my 150- m walk to the apartment, I stopped at an exchange place know and exchanged another $500 USD. I know a place with a good rate. Do not look at the exchange rate but rather at the buy-sell spread. Fifteen cents is good, ten is better. At the airport, the spread was over 70 cents. Make sure this money is in your wallet. You do not want to go digging into your luggage in the middle of the street looking for your USDs. The $500 was enough to pay for the first few days of the apartment and the at least one night in the city. By the way, I got the apartment using Dobovo.

Anyway, I settled in the apartment without any problems, paid the money, and had to make a decision: search for options from the comfort of my apartment, or head out to the streets and enjoy the view.

I will go off on a tangent and point out the real reason to visit Kiev. Mere seconds after stepping out of your building into the streets, you see a gorgeous woman wearing a nice, feminine, short, often tight, or even transparent dress or skirt, and usually high heels. That continues every 30 seconds for the rest of the day. In contrast to North America, the women in Kiev are slim, they wear dresses and skirts, and many are extremely elegant. Even if I were 90 years old, impotent, and with no chance of ever scoring with any girl, I would still enjoy the view and consider Kiev one of my premier vacation spots. Same goes for St Petersburg, Odessa, Moscow, or any large Eastern European city where the downtown has good foot traffic.

On to the girls.

I had over 25 long-term pros and 8 semi-pros lined up. I had been texting and walking on video with the long-term pros for a couple of months. I had occasionally contacted the semi-pros form previous trips and informed them that I would be back in town.

I arrived on a Friday afternoon / evening and had a date with a semi-pro on my first night, at 22:00 h. She wanted to come with a friend, like last time, but I insisted that I might be tired and only wanted her.

Before her, however, I had three regular first dates. One flaked out; the next one wanted to go to some fancy restaurant, so I ditched her, and the third one was great. I made it quite clear, however, that I was tired and wanted to go to bed early. I doubt I would have scored on a first date, so one hour was plenty of time. When there is no attraction, 5 minutes is plenty of time. We agreed to meet on a couple of days and I went to my other "date". Total cost for my date, less than 300 UAH. Cost for my girl afterwards: 1500 UAH. She offered anal for 500 UAH more, like last time, but I figure I would save it for the next time. I saw her 4 more times during my trip, once alone, and thrice with some of her friends.

She is about 35 and I have known her for about 6 years. She still looks great, almost as good as when we met, but I am sure everything was firmer when she was 22. Over the years, she has introduced me to 5 other girls, who themselves have introduced me to some of their friends. This time, the friends were another 30 something, a new introduction, very cute and enthusiastic, and a 22 year old, whom I have known for 3 years, still absolutely perfect, but she takes a little longer to warm up. Apparently, this young girl is a friend's daughter, and her "aunt" is secretly teaching her the ways of a Kiev woman. Both threesomes were excellent in all accounts! The cost? 1500 UAH per person, 2000 UAH when anal was included.

The first 4 days in Kiev were a tight scheduling puzzle. Fourteen first dates, and 8 second dates with long-term pros. Luckily, I had Saturday and Sunday to sift through most of these.

On Monday and Tuesday, I packed as much action as I could late in the afternoon or early evening, and tried to schedule some semi-pros or real pros early in the afternoon or late in the evening. Actually, it is great going on a date knowing that you just had sex a couple of hours before, and / or that you will likely be having sex a couple of hours later. It makes you fairly relaxed and completely eliminates any hint of desperation, which girls interpret as confidence.

One of the girls was being difficult and said that she could not meet me immediately after work because she had to go to her English class. Never mind that she would learn a lot more English with me in 10 minutes than in one hour with her Ukrainian English teacher. I turned the tables on her and offered to give her class a free conversational English lesson. By the way, I am experienced public speaker and I do have a TEFL diploma, even if it is from over 20 years ago. I have actually done that a few times in Kiev, during vacations; they usually throw a few hundred UAH your way, and more importantly, it is great way to meet girls! Anyway, her class was packed with gorgeous women (and a few guys, yes). These are the women who you want to meet, the smart ones who are trying to improve themselves. They had all just come from work, so they were in their sexy office outfits and high heels. Jesus fucking Christ! I do not know how Ukrainian men do any work at the office! I basically flirted with them for 90 minutes. At the end, the original girl was impressed by my performance, but some other hotter girl had been giving me the eye, so I invited her for a drink instead.

That is another good strategy: expose yourself (not in that sense!) by giving English classes or giving a talk at a local university. You can access the smart hot office girls and the smart hot student girls. They can all see your personality and your status, and surely some of them will be attracted.

Wednesday I had to take off. I returned Sunday night.

Leaving town for a while.

I used the 5 night absence to my advantage. I told some girls that I was going to Odessa and others just assumed that I remained in Kiev. I kept the apartment because I wanted to travel light and I knew that I would return to Kiev late at night. I put my Ukraine sim card in an old phone and I left it there, in case anyone called. So, as far as anyone knew, I was still in Kiev, or at least Ukraine, but I was too busy to answer my phone. I also kept receiving messages on Viber and Whatsapp on my regular phone number using my regular phone. Most girls only communicate via viber and whatsapp, not a regular phone. This allowed me to adroitly postpone some dates for several days and arrange news ones for when I returned.

For girls, scarcity makes you more attractive. If you do not answer the phone, they think that you are with someone else, and hence more attractive. It is technically known as "mate choice copying". I have also noticed that when you walk alone during the day, girls largely avoid eye contact, but when you are walking with a girl, other girls shamelessly check you out, check her out, and even smile at you. Another example is when you schedule first dates, and you say something like 11:00 am, 3:00 pm And 5:00 pm Are open. They would all prefer it if you go to Ukraine to visit ONLY her, and they pretend to be offended, but their competitive nature takes over. A couple of girls pretended to get offended, told me "good luck", but then called some time later, willing to take one of the free times. Of course, by that time, I had to say that he times were taken and I had to push them on to the next day. One last example: on one occasion, I was having a beer at an outdoor bar near golden gates and some young girl 3 tables away kept looking at me and smiling. No, I am not that good looking anymore. She gave me a huge smile as we were leaving. I should have dumped my date, because she ended up leading nowhere. Idiot! What are they thinking? I do not know. Sometimes I imagine that they are thinking that they are better than the girl I am with, and sometimes they are, or maybe they are telling me that I could do better, and maybe I could. However, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the Bush". But then again "variety is the spice of life".

Nearby cities.

When I came back for the second leg of my trip, I spent one night in Zhytomyr (Monday) and a couple of nights in Dnipro (Tuesday and Wednesday). After spending the night in Kiev, and having a lunch date the next day, I headed to Zhytomyr, for only one night. It is only 150 Km. I met two girls, both young and child-free, and although they were nice enough, there were no sparks. It was a nice city; it was good to get out of Kiev for a change and to have two friendly tour guides. I had been in Dnipro before and had found it a waste of time. I returned specifically to meet 5 long-term pros. I had chatted with them online for several weeks, so they were promising. I think smaller cities sometimes have better girls, at least when it comes to potential marriage. Three of the girls were under 30 and without kids; 2 were single mums: one was over 30 and one under 30. I met all five, two of them twice. One came to Kiev the following weekend to close the deal. I tried to hit the pro scene but did not succeed.

Online sites.

In Kiev, all dating sites are quickly overwhelmed by pros. In addition of a marriage site, on which I had been for a couple of months, I went on Mamba, Badoo, and Tinder. I got the premium service on Tinder and mamba. Long-term pros require a little online seduction before you ask for a date. A week or two is enough. Again, you do not want to seem too desperate. Pros do not require any seduction, of course. Their first question is "are you in Kiev?" By the way, tinder in Kiev is completely different. Unlike North America, there are not uglies or fatties. They might as well eliminate the "swipe left" option.

Let's meet outside McDonalds.

I use it as my first test for long-term pros. Some girls are immediately offended by the suggestion. Thank you; you have revealed yourself. I am not interested. Others counter with some fancy restaurant. That is okay, but I do not know where that restaurant is. We can meet at McDonalds, a place I do know, and then, if we like each other, go somewhere else, a place of MY choice. I like places where there are lots of local people, where I can sit and watch people (girls) pass by, and where there are not too many foreign sex tourists (so, not Arena City). The gold-diggers prefer the exact opposite: otherwise empty restaurants or bars, you know it will either be a partial scam (you will buy her an expensive dinner and never see her again) or a total scam (she is in collusion with the restaurant to bring you in and charge you exorbitant prices). Going to a place with a good view of passers-by is also good because it keeps your date humble. They see that there are MANY options in Kiev. If she ever complains about you looking at other women, you have a troublemaker in your hands.

Non-pros or long-term pros.

The problem with long-term pros (marriage-minded girls, or "non-pros") is that they take up a lot of time. Sure, the first meeting can be limited to one hour, but the second tends to be a little longer, particularly if there are signs of interest. Meanwhile, other long-term pros, semi-pros, and hard-core pros are calling and texting. The third date has to be in the closer to the evening and involve drinks. At best, you can schedule two during the night, and if the first one works out, then you blew your chances with the second one. If I cannot close after 3 dates, I move on.

I had over 20 girls lined up in Kiev, but only 14 materialized into actual first dates. As usual, girls are suddenly unavailable when you are actually there, in their city. The dog is sick, they are out of town, the friend is having surgery, the grandmother I missing, etc. They are as creative as undergraduate students coming up with excuses for missing a test. Of the 14, for 5 there was no real connection. In a couple of cases, the date lasted no more than 15 minutes. Why waste each other's time? Either they were clearly not interested, or I did not find them attractive in person. Why do they put up photos from 10 years ago?! In all instances, I made it absolutely clear that I only had one hour. Some pretended to be offended at the fact that I might be dating other girls, but deep down, it is better if they are aware they are competing against other girls. Several tried to stick around to check out their competition but I changed locations and left 30 minutes between dates.

Of the 9, I managed to schedule a second date with only 8. These were a little longer: a walk in the park, skating, the beach, the circus, lunch and a walk, a museum, etc. Of those, 5 made it into a third date and I closed the deal with 4. Actually, one of them took a fourth date. I gave her leeway because I blew it a little on the second date by jumping the gun.

I have not done an analysis of the cost, but I am going to suggest that whether you pay for or not, you usually pay about the same. How much? I will go back to the old standards: the price of your hotel room, the price or three dates, or 10 times the price of a haircut. I wonder if the second one includes the cost of dates that do not lead to sex?

Sometimes I think I should hire an administrative assistant. There is an old report of some guy who not only had the balls to hire a secretary to schedule his dates, but informed her that the job also included sex on demand. I guess that is an incentive for the secretary to be good at her job, or she will have to do all the heavy lifting. Someone should find it and make it a report with distinction.

Nightlife.

Even if you do not like nightclubs, it just seems like a waste to be in Kiev on a Friday or Saturday night and not enjoy some of the nightlife. I do not really like clubs other than to check out girls dancing while wearing their sexy dresses and high heels. However, I found myself at Caribbean club a three times and Sorry Babushka once. One evening, I found myself at some club by the beach, but we left as the sun went down. I am sure there are better places.

I am not a dancer, and I am not 25 anymore, so for me, clubs are not the best place to pick up girls. Nevertheless, it is still possible to look at pretty girls, collect a few phone numbers, and have a little fun. I was at the beach club with a girl, and it was great, but I would certainly not go alone.

At Caribbean, a mature man is not out of place, and despite your determination not to pay inflated prices, there is always one girl that makes you want to throw away all your principles. To me, it was a beautiful little blonde, the perfect combination of cute, sexy, feminine, and elegant. Luckily for me, she was with some guy all night. Maybe she was not even a pro. For her, I might have broken my rules. I went back another two times specifically hoping to find her. Luckily (or not? I did not see her again. The Caribbean is one of the few places open and not completely empty Sunday to Thursday. Monday and Tuesday, it is free!

I am sure the best nightclubs are where there are no foreign sex tourists and plenty of oligarchs and their kids. I was told about Queen, and the-Fleur.

First time in Kiev. Very strange!

I had a weird situation. During my first 4 days, I had 2 dates with a girl: single mum, 33, extremely beautiful but not pretentious. On the first date, we just talked for an hour and a half, sitting on a bench. On the second date, we walked around the centre and talked for 2 or 3 hours. Then, I had to leave for 5 days.

When I returned, I waited a several days to call her again. I had been a little too aggressive at the end of the second date, and I thought I had blown it. I had not. One day, another date cancelled, and I gave her a call. She was happy to hear from me. We went for a couple of drinks, and I thought she was ready, but to compensate for last time, decided not to push too much. On the fourth date (broke my rule! Which happened the next day, we went to the beach (fantastic body!) and she drove me back home. The sex was incredible. I spend a lot time with her during my last few days.

The odd part is that I did not spend a cent on her, before or after sex. She insisted on paying for her own stuff. I had never seen this on a Kiev girl! Well, twice before, but not to this extend. In one case, she did not spend anything and in the other one, she started accepting after we had sex. Anyway, this girl sometimes she even paid for my drink! She drove us where we had to go, and dropped me off at my place. She drove a luxury SUV, had fake boobs, and on occasion referred to a driver who used to take her kid to school and other activities. Her kid had all the usual activities, like a western kid, but with personal coaches. One day, I said I could use some exercise, and suggested we go to her gym (it was clear that she worked out! Well, her "gym" was actually a luxury social club with a restaurant, an outdoor sunning area, indoor and outdoor swimming pools, Jacuzzis, tennis courts, and yes, a gym. I assume the guest pass was not free, but whatever the cost, she took care of it. How do you say "put it on my tab" in Russian? Of course, she also had the latest iPhone. We ate together thrice. Well, actually, she waited while I had a basic "meat and potatoes" type of meal at a normal restaurant, and then we would go to a fancy restaurant where she would order and pay for her own ridiculously priced weird food. One night, she was having dinner and drinks for a friends' birthday at some luxury restaurant that turned into a nightclub at night (she sent me photos), but about midnight she took a cab and came to my apartment, all dressed up! At the end, she drove me to the airport, and on the way, blew 1000 UAH on gas. She vehemently refused to accept any money. She claimed to have some sort of internet job. I saw her web site (NO, not a sex site! But I did not see how it could generate enough money to support her lifestyle. Did I stumble on some oligarch daughter who thinks of me as a toy boy? Or rather, a toy middle-aged man? Did she divorce the only man in Ukraine who pays alimony and child support at North American levels? Did she somehow fall in love with me? It was weird situation.

The last several days, I spend most of my free time with her. She partially curtailed my other activities, but I was okay with it. She had to go home to her kid most nights and she did not come back to my place until the mid-afternoon. It was enough time to schedule a few dates late in the evening. However, all the other long-term girls who could only meet me in the early evening were squeezed out of contention.

In summary.

Of over 25 long-term pros that I had set up from before, 5 eventually paid out. Well, maybe 4, as one was definitely not a long-term pro. She had no interest in money! Four were from Kiev and one from Dnipro, and I completely struck out in both Dnipro an Zhytomyr, but one girl came to see me in Kiev. I also had three new first dates with "non-pro" girls from Tinder and mamba, but they did not progress, and one girl form the English class. I continued my relationships with 5 semi-pros that I knew from previous trips. They added two of their friends to the regular rotation. Finally, I found another 6 pro or semi-pro girls, 2 or 3 of whom I hope to meet again. The new girls came from Mamba and Tinder. The prices were from 1500 to 2000 UAH, with two at 2300 UAH.

Whether I am paying for it directly or indirectly, or not paying for it at all, it seems I am moving towards long-term relationships.

[Stevie69]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I did not say 300 UAH would be any good. Any 300 UAH girl would have to pay ME a lot of money before I agreed to have anything to do with her. I would say that NO amount of money would be enough, but maybe we all have a price.

Nor did I say that successful local men pay only 300 UAH. There are plenty of bankers, IT professionals, engineers, and businessmen that probably have all the girls they want. Yes, and they can be fat and ugly and they can treat women like crap, but there you go. Local women always complain that local men cheat, but they do not cheat with 300 UAH girls. They probably do not pay, at least not directly. Successful local men in Ukraine are prime marriage material.

But local men, the ones who have to pay for sex, pay under 500 UAH.

For us, foreign sex tourists, a reasonable price would be 1500 to 2500 UAH.

And yes, in the USA, for example, 150 to 250 USD is a reasonable price. Three days' wages, 10 x the price of a haircut, or the price of 3 dates.

The difference is that in the USA, women can get jobs to cover their basic expenses. So, the supply is smaller, which keeps prices up, but the fact that they give it up "for free" so easily has the opposite effect. I write "for free" in quotes because it is seldom really free.

Looking forwards to reading it. Regardless of any disagreements, I always enjoy reading your posts.

And cashier salaries in the mid size town which is my official domicile in the USA is under $8/hour, less taxes, plus they often get less than 40 hours work, so maybe $250/week or $50/day. But college girls would be insulted by offers of $50 from a man 30+ years older. More like $150 minimum. Maybe a younger man could get away with $50, especially if a long-term continuing relationship. Sex work everywhere is highly paid, assuming you want quality young women and you are seeing the girl occasionally at most and possibly just once. 3-4 days cashier wages, or about 1500-2000 uah in Kyiv is about right.

[PhotoSlider]

This is essentially a re-post of a previous post, updated after my most recent trip. A report of the trip will be posted shortly.

-Do not go to see the girl's place. By the time you get there and find the place, you have wasted an hour or two, the taxi driver has ripped you off, and the girl might be disappointing, or you might decide that you have already spent so much time and money that you will agree to anything (Concorde fallacy)....

Sharing pure wisdom! This should be a report of distinction, we didn't have one for almost a year.

Lots of these thoughts resonate, and while I do some of the things differently, there are absolutely no controversies in the above approach. The criteria is simple. Practice in the field and consistently high degree of success.

[Michi T]

Greetings,

This is essentially a re-post of a previous post, updated after my most recent trip. A report of the trip will be posted shortly.

Some rookie mistakes.
...
Money is not a substitute for charm.

Dude, your report is very well written and I fully agree with it. It reflects my own experience in the Ukraine!

[ShawMan74]

Do you feel your trip is likely to be a success?

I'm not in ameriKa for the rest of the summer. Whether I find the love of my life, or whether I only manage to write two more lines of my screenplay, it's already a success.

[ShawMan74]

So I threw a hand party! AKA I felt like a kid again! LOL.

Ok not really, I was actually looking into quality methods to craft my own prison Fi-Fi for when I get back to the usa. (honestly, whatever the scene is here, its a damn sight better than back home).

I have to pace myself for at least the first stretch of my time here or risk getting "pulled from the game", so I took it easy for a few days. So by now, I had a nail in my pants that just won't go away.

I didn't feel like going for a swim at the apartments (already tired), and I was going to be damned if I burned a slidenifil if it the apartments turned out to be bunk. I wanted a more relaxing experience, something different. And I wanted to do something guaranteed about this nail. So I decided this would be a good day to check out some of those massage parlor websites I posted about earlier.

Cabby had some advice. He mentioned to try the apartments first. We did, and they were bunk. Back to the backup plan hehe. He said to take the menu with a grain of salt. The nuru and the 4 hands and the hot tub and all that was most likely going to fall through the minute you get there. Those are mostly sales gimmicks. But we went to a higher-end place called vip relax, so at least the quality and level of service was guaranteed. And the minute I walked in, I knew everything was going to be alright.

The hostess is in a nightie looking every bit as sexy as the girls who work there (she is off the menu, I tried). Speaking of which, the girls who do this are entirely on another level compared to the apartment incalls. These girls are STUPID SEXY! I stayed with Maya, a perfect 10 stunner that's going to have me making that Fi-Fi before the trip is over (I mean everytime I think about her, another nail finds it way in my pants).

An immediate benefit to this option is that you have more time with her for much less than you'd pay at the apartments for quality like this (1900 UAH for 1 HR 20 min). Once we both got completely naked it started with an up close and personal body to body dickrubbing, the middle was punctuated by an actual massage, finished with another exquisite tugjob, and we showered together after. She was working the entire time, I got my money's worth out of her.

Oddly enough on the way out I saw a room with a hot tub in it. I asked about it and she said it was only on some of the time, very arbitrary when they want to do that.

Of course I tried for the connection, so I gave her my number, she hasn't called, so I'm out. One chance per girl, for life. That's the way it is. But just because I struck out that doesn't mean you will, so get over there and see for yourself what I mean.

Day 13, got another nail in my pants. Lets grow from the apartments, this is going to take more than a hand-party, titty bars are out of the question, so I finally got around to an outcall! The girl's name is nastya and the review is coming later.

[Riina]

I fly in tomorrow, wish me luck boys,

Do you feel your trip is likely to be a success?