Kyiv

[AntonySun1996]

As for AntonySun1996's disappointment with his sponsor girl, I think one problem might be that he wanted love, not just good behavior, however love cannot be bought. I was very happy with my non-monogamous sponsor girl this past summer, and one reason is probably because I don't ask what she can't give. In particular, I only saw her about twice weekly for 4 hours each meeting. Asking a girl to behave perfectly for that amount of time is realistic. Overnight and multi-day sessions another story.

It seems that paying thousands of bucks to your Ukrainian girlfriend when you are not around is not a smart approach. When you are not in the same house, it becomes even more difficult to control her bad behaviours caused by her deep-rooted terrible personalities. The only reason I pay the monthly allowances to keep her is that I thought this relationship would last long-term, as I planned to either move to Kiev or bring her to my country. She also did agree to marry me. However, considering the fact that her behaviors have barely changed, such marriage would be a disaster, especially since I am from a cultural background where the nuclear family is closely connected to the parents of both spouses, the troubles she would cause in our marriage would be probably even beyond my imagination. How could I expect her to respect my parents when she is often disrespectful to me.

I am wondering if it is just me, or the abusive manners are quite common among the post-soviet generation of Ukrainian girls, as I sometimes notice that her misbehavior are sometimes also targeted at her close relatives instead of just at me. It seems that the mental health is a serious issue for them.

[SuperLove]

I was in Kiev for a business trip for 7-8 days beginning early last week. Messaged on forum, got 4-5 replies. 1st I did not like the way he talked and messaged so said no. 2nd he gave his no wrong so could not get in touch with him. 3rd we missed each other on dates. 4th he is a silent reader of the forum met with him and exchanged notes but he was shy in fucking together. So parted our ways. I was ready with my contacts from previous travels. Met friends, friends of friends, friends of friends of friends and so on. I say be shameless, go and talk to the girls on the road. At best she will refuse and abuse you in local language and walk off. No harms at least for me. Met one such girl, walk and talk, wine dinner and great banging. Amazing in fact, everything on platter no money discussed but I left $100 bill in her pocket in the morning after breakfast. Left a message on her mobile afterwards, of course she was delighted. This was amazing fishing exercise but took a lot of my time. Not worth it when you'are short on it. I was working for my boss from morning to early evening. 7 pm onwards scotch on the rocks followed by 2 sessions every night with a girl to die for. Story of every day and double on weekends. Had 8-9 chicks in this period of 7-8 days. Blondes, red heads, and brunettes. Milfs, students and indies. My worst performer was a 5 on looks. Others averaged 8 and one was a pure 10. In fact more. Some gave attitude, they had to be convinced or shown the door with no money. Only 1 bad incident of gifts, cash and no service. I say not bad at all. Almost all BBBJ and French kissing, half of them with ass. Few of them public sucking and kissing and fooling around. Visited a number of bars. Great time. My average was an easy $150-200 for every girl this included food drinks taxi and cash gifts. I take this any time. Some gave me just a few hours while others offered a whole night. Again a good fraction. Spent $1400-1800, overall I must admit if one wants to see pure beauty Kiev is the place but the city and country is changing every week. Scamsters present on every turn. Just be careful visiting this beautiful country. Again I am off to China in a few days. Will report on the respective forum soon. Kiev takes your breath away. Hope does to you as it did to me. Keep fucking and remember to make them scream hard. Its music to my ears.

[SuperLove]

Hello bro,

I am back in my homeland after a hectic trip to Ukraine. Scored many homeruns, posts coming soon.

Please read my previous posts time and again I posted about different scams in Ukraine, chicks are greedy lazy and will do anything to cheat you. Service levels are low.

But they are so beautiful and gorgeous that one takes the plunge. But 300 is a small no could have been bigger. I hope lesson learnt and you will be more careful. We all have got duped sometime or the other, idea is not repeat the same mistakes.

Its a learning curve always, have fun.

My Kiev sex trip experience.

I have been going to Kiev as a sex tourist several times a year for 6 years now. Clubs, apartments, everything.

I'm experienced. But also good of heart. I am not afraid to be the first to give or show kindness.

I am writing this story not to get comments like: "you are stupid", or "you should never do that".

If you give a reply to my story like that, you totally do not understand why I am sharing this story with you.

So again, please refrain from stupid comments. What has happened is already bad enough for my ego as it is now.

So here is the story:

Contacted a girl on tinder. Some chatting, she wanted to know what I do for a living. Her tinder profile said only gentlemen. She proposed to have diner at a Georgian restaurant, I proposed something more fancy, but she replied that she was bored with the restaurant I proposed in Gulliver. So we met each other at 5 o'clock in the Georgian restaurant (next to dolls)..

[David42]

Hi all,

My trip isn't over yet. Still one week to go.

But I wanted to add / clarify information about 93 k and the Tourist hotel Gentlemans / Strip Club.

93 K-.

Facing Mcds in Maidan, go up the street along the right side of Mcds, roughly called Mala Zhytomyrska St (there is a kebab place on the right side as you enter it).

Keeping walking up this street until you come to a junction (with the 24 HR shop mentioned by others on the opposite side of the junction). Turn left at this junction onto Mikhailivski Lane (not to be confused with Mikhailivska St (where O'Briens pub is).

Once you turn left, stay on the left hand side for 50 m or so. You will see the much talked about archway. There is a large hotel directly opposite (Hyatt regency)..

P.S. Correction for 93 k. The street I said to walk up doesn't have the kebab shop.

The one to walk up is 2nd to the right of Mcds.

Alternatively put 9 mikhailivski Ln in google and it is about there.

[David42]

Hi all,

My trip isn't over yet. Still one week to go.

But I wanted to add / clarify information about 93 k and the Tourist hotel Gentlemans / Strip Club.

93 K-.

Facing Mcds in Maidan, go up the street along the right side of Mcds, roughly called Mala Zhytomyrska St (there is a kebab place on the right side as you enter it).

Keeping walking up this street until you come to a junction (with the 24 HR shop mentioned by others on the opposite side of the junction). Turn left at this junction onto Mikhailivski Lane (not to be confused with Mikhailivska St (where O'Briens pub is).

Once you turn left, stay on the left hand side for 50 m or so. You will see the much talked about archway. There is a large hotel directly opposite (Hyatt regency).

Going through the archway there are two buildings that are in front of you. Go to the right hand one. And dial 93 k etc etc.

Best time to go is 8 pm onwards, otherwise there may be only one or two girls working. I saw 5/6 in the evening.

Tourist Hotel-.

This is labelled on maps as Tourist / Turyst Hotel Complex.

It is just outside the metro stop Livoberezhna (4 stops from maidan). Or 70/120 Uah using Uber.

There is a building adjacent to the right of the hotel, with Gentleman's Club labelling. And an ATM on left side of its entrance.

Go up the stairs, 3 floors, and the entrance is right in front of you.

Hope that helps, I will add a report later.

[SkinnyMan]

My report is indeed emotional. And I also exaggerated about the level of English of people in Ukr.

[Kozerog]

Huge difference between Skinnyman's and Photoslider's reports. (Photoslider's deserves to be added to posts of distinction thread, not sure how that works). Related posts by Michi and AntonySun1996 in the Stupid Shit in Kiev thread.

I don't see any conflict in these reports. Photoslider reports success whereas the others report failure, but then Photoskider is very clear about the methods he uses to guarantee success. In particular, he goes through agencies as a repeat customer, so no risk of being drugged or robbed by a freelancer, or encountering girls who refuse sex altogether. He pays for at most an hour initially, so loss is capped at 2000 uah or so if bad service. When he encounters a quality girl, he often repeats, which reduces risk further. And so on. Read his report and imitate him and thereby avoid the problems others report.

As for AntonySun1996's disappointment with his sponsor girl, I think one problem might be that he wanted love, not just good behavior, however love cannot be bought. I was very happy with my non-monogamous sponsor girl this past summer, and one reason is probably because I don't ask what she can't give. In particular, I only saw her about twice weekly for 4 hours each meeting. Asking a girl to behave perfectly for that amount of time is realistic. Overnight and multi-day sessions another story.

And if you have found a good girl, then she also will disappear off the market more quick than you wish for.

Which is why I gave a generous bonus to my girl this past summer. But no need to be as generous as AntonySun1996. Just position yourself to be the sort of client the girl is always interested in seeing again (unless she marries an oligarch, which few do).

In Ukraine tourists are now treated like everywhere else in Europe. Like pigs. Almost everybody speaks English in Ukr,

You're discrediting the rest of your report, which sounds like a typical EE scam, with the above extreme exaggerations.

[PhotoSlider]

...After 1 hour talking, she said she had a present for me. It was a men's perfume of Chanel. Of course I was charmed by that. Afterwards, I think the perfume might be fake, I have no idea, I never use perfume or buy it. Anyway, I thought it was very kind of her. Nevertheless the present would not increase her changes of becoming my GF, she was not my type. We both drank tea. I got hungry and ordered some food. She did not wanted any food. She only drunk 1 cup of tea. She told that she worked as a trainer in a spa center. And proposed to visit a spa center if I wanted. Since that would be something new for me I agreed, even though I am not into spa stuf...

Friend of mine has been in a similar situation: he was given a present of perfume upon meeting the girl, and later on during the walk invited to swimwear shopping. Except he found prices too high, and said that he doesn't mind if she buys expensive, but he doesn't think the price is good. She went ballistic, accused him of being cheap, he smiled and suggested to return her perfume, wishing her all the best.

Might have been the same girl, or perhaps they have online training classes "Scammers 101" and more advanced ones.

Trick with the second exit is a known one in a variety of situations, not only with girls.

Thank you for sharing your experience and warning Forum members, perhaps we should have done it ourselves sooner, saving you from aggravation, but I personally wasn't hit by that.

[SkinnyMan]

My Kiev sex trip experience.

I have been going to Kiev as a sex tourist several times a year for 6 years now. Clubs, apartments, everything.

I'm experienced. But also good of heart. I am not afraid to be the first to give or show kindness.

I am writing this story not to get comments like: "you are stupid", or "you should never do that".

If you give a reply to my story like that, you totally do not understand why I am sharing this story with you.

So again, please refrain from stupid comments. What has happened is already bad enough for my ego as it is now.

So here is the story:

Contacted a girl on tinder. Some chatting, she wanted to know what I do for a living. Her tinder profile said only gentlemen. She proposed to have diner at a Georgian restaurant, I proposed something more fancy, but she replied that she was bored with the restaurant I proposed in Gulliver. So we met each other at 5 o'clock in the Georgian restaurant (next to dolls).

Afterwards I realized that she definitely was not the girl from the tinder pictures. Not as beautiful. I would say she was a 7. Not bad, I would do her, but no girl friend material. Anyway, I like to meet new people and have them show me around new places. And that also was both our mindset of the talk. Relaxed, we talked about Ukraine, and my country and the differences. She told me she broke up with her BF because she gave him presents, but he never gave her much attention, support or presents. After 1 hour talking, she said she had a present for me. It was a men's perfume of Chanel. Of course I was charmed by that. Afterwards, I think the perfume might be fake, I have no idea, I never use perfume or buy it. Anyway, I thought it was very kind of her. Nevertheless the present would not increase her changes of becoming my GF, she was not my type. We both drank tea. I got hungry and ordered some food. She did not wanted any food. She only drunk 1 cup of tea. She told that she worked as a trainer in a spa center. And proposed to visit a spa center if I wanted. Since that would be something new for me I agreed, even though I am not into spa stuf.

No alarm bells ringing whatsoever.

Just a normal girl, hard working, good English, friendly, smart.

I paid the check for 300 grievnas. (10 euro). And we agreed that we needed to buy some swimming wear for the both of us for the spa center. So we went to a mall, nothing special. In the mall we went to some basic fashion shop and there she quickly found 2 swimming wear suits. She let me choose which one to buy. At the counter I told her I would pay for her swimming suit. Then I noticed the suit costed 300 euro. Quite steep. But that is no problem for me, I have enough money, no worries. She would not be my GF, but I do not mind giving a present to somebody. Giving a present to somebody normally gives a good feeling.

So, after buying her swimming wear we quickly also searched a swimming pants for me, but they were all to big, so we agreed that we would pick up my swimming wear in my hotel.

Then she said she needed to go to the toilet.

She went to a toilet, with a sign that was in Cyrillic, but I did could distill something like corridor be or something, so, there was an exit. I waited, 4 minutes, and then I got messages from her that she accidentally met het ex BF and that he is crazy and angry and that we will meet again at my car. I went to my car, and there she sent me a message that she would take a taxi to my hotel and we would meet there. When I arrived at my hotel, she had already blocked me on tinder and whatsapp.

Ok, I think by now you guys know what happened.

So, Kiev is changing.

I told it already on this forum.

Girls are becoming fatter, adapting western lifestyle, dressing less sexy.

6 years ago, being a tourist in Kiev, would give you credit, because you were really special. Wow. He is from Europe!

No longer.

Also, the grievna is sky rocketing. Prices are no longer cheap. I paid 5000 grievna (170 euro) for a BJ of 30 minutes in a dirty dump without any luxury. In a luxurious German FKK the price for that would be 50 euro.

Yes, there are still beautiful girls walking on the streets, but they are just difficult to contact, either they already have a BF or they don't even respond or stop walking when you start talking with them. They lie, they cheat, they don't keep their promises. Girls in Ukraine are actually describing themselves when they are explaining how they see Ukrainian men: unreliably, only interested in money, rude.

Yes, I still will go to Ukraine. Because there are of course also good experiences. But it is getting really fucking hard to find some. And if you have found a good girl, then she also will disappear of the market more quick than you wish for.

In Ukraine tourists are now treated like everywhere else in Europe. Like pigs. Almost everybody speaks English in Ukr, they have all learned this during the past few years, because they now all are allowed to travel freely into Europe. And they have picked up our bad habits while doing so.

Woman in Ukraine are still slim, yes, but they are getting fatter quickly. And crabs, Turks, Americans, Germans, dutch, Italians, Indian guys are swarming the streets, strip clubs are full with tourists. Its Prague 2. 0.

This story is just to warn you guys that there are so many ways girls will scam you in Ukraine. The scams are applied with an extreme art, very sophisticated. You will not know what hit you before you will be lying on the ground. Done on a way, you could never imagine a girl would be able to do such a thing to you.

The girls in Ukraine have passion, just like gypsies. And will cheat on you, just like gypsies.

[PassinThrough]

No and yes. Kiev action is certainly not dead, but it has evolved yet again. Back in 18-19th century girls have been forced to move from Upper Town to Andreevsky Descent, and then to Kanava on Podol. It went through another transformation in 21-st century.

Therefore the answer to RFI is simple: take any online resource like iwait. Biz or kievlady.com and start rolling through their multiple numbers. That's how I found them while visiting Kiev from 2011 onward after River Palace shutown.

Thanks for the insight and the help.

PIT.

[PhotoSlider]

The question is being asked repeatedly if there is a replacement for River Palace. When the answer is "No", the question is repeated again: Caribbean? Arena? Apartments?

The answer is simple and the same: there is no replacement for River Palace. Apartments are more or less the same as they were for decades and centuries, except pictures are forwarded via Viber, Telegram, WhatsApp and Web.

You do not trust web? Neither do I, but I do not like going to an apartment either. I only do it for an occasional massage, because there is more consistent quality there, and I do not expect full service or even oral there.

Instead of going for a line-up at the apartment I allocated lots of time and have the girls delivered to me. This way agency is interested in saving time, while delivering to a trusted customer.

Going through Kiev without much preparation for a few days and expecting to score is an illusion and self-deception.

Are there great girls in Kiev? You bet!

Are they available? Yes they are.

What does it take to get them? Time, effort, persistence, smarts and money.

What is the probability to score a great one in couple days? I have no idea. There is no FKK, no Thai girls hunting you down, and definitely no replacement for River Palace.

Arena City and Rio will take your money, and they are trained to. That's the whole purpose of their existence. Taking the most money from sex tourists within the shortest time interval. Satisfaction level IMHO is the lowest.

The city used to have a wall in X-XI century, the remnants can still be seen. It guarded Kiev treasures and citizen from intruders. Right now locals have much easier access to internal resources. High class ladies hiding behind messengers, local language and certain degree of mistrust towards strangers.

[PhotoSlider]

So should I take that to mean that there is no good action in Kiev? There are no good bars for freelancers or I am just on my own? I was just hoping replaced River Palace even if not as big or as good. Thanks.

PIT.

No and yes. Kiev action is certainly not dead, but it has evolved yet again. Back in 18-19th century girls have been forced to move from Upper Town to Andreevsky Descent, and then to Kanava on Podol. It went through another transformation in 21-st century.

River Palace has been closed mid-2010.

WhatsApp released in January 2009 (by Jan Koum, originally from Fastov / Kiev and sold to Facebook for $19 billions in stock. About 20% GDP of Ukraine). Viber released in December 2010. Instagram in October 2010.

What a coincidence!

My opinion, River Palace was more difficult to milk for profit than a network of apartments and strip joints.

These days marketing in Kiev is performed mostly online. IG, Mamba, Tinder, Telegram channels, and all kinds of web portals.

IMHO free market regulates a certain degree of reliable providers as well as cheaters. Market is dynamic and girls that were available to me during 5 weeks trip this past May / June were almost all gone during 7-weeks in August-September. In fact I didn't want to meet those that stayed, as I prefer fresh incoming students and visiting freelancers starting their career in our industry.

Therefore the answer to RFI is simple: take any online resource like iwait. Biz or kievlady.com and start rolling through their multiple numbers. That's how I found them while visiting Kiev from 2011 onward after River Palace shutown.

[Riina]

So should I take that to mean that there is no good action in Kiev?

There's action in Kiev, but the good stuff is hard to find.

[PassinThrough]

. A few hardened pros work in a fringe area of a few bars. Basically skanks without better options. But if you want to look at the eye candy on the streets and then go back to your place and rip one off with your own hand, Kiev is awesome.

So should I take that to mean that there is no good action in Kiev? There are no good bars for freelancers or I am just on my own? I was just hoping replaced River Palace even if not as big or as good. Thanks.

PIT.

[PhotoSlider]

The following pseudo-statistical analysis contains observations on my 7-weeks August-September stay in Kiev. Be forewarned, - it is lengthy, and cannot be used to find girls, as I provide no contacts. I did it mostly for vanity sake, as first month away from Ukrainian beauties is tough, but I manage, just like I did in the past.

In those 7 weeks I had a total of 28 girls.

24 are mostly hourly girls from various downtown apartments remotely managed by multiple agencies.

4 are my LT (long term) GFs. The more I think about them, the more I want to call them "rental girlfriends". I essentially buy my time with them, explicitly or indirectly doesn't matter.

One of these 4 is newly found at the downtown massage parlor, which has been subsequently shutdown.

9 deliveries with a total of 14 girls have been rejected. 5 rides had a selection of 2 girls for curbside casting, and didn't pass due to looking tired or being rude or not pretty enough or smoking. 4 rides had only 1 girl delivered, and rejected for similar reasons.

One of those 14 girls was actually paid 2000+100 UAH upon arrival, we had a drink, she stripped, went into my bed, and has been subsequently swiftly kicked out for thinking too much of herself.

Some of the 24 hourly girls have also been delivered with an alternative option, that is 2 girls delivered, and when I was "home alone", only one was taken. When the order has been placed for a visiting friend, and myself, we kept both of the girls, as I had two landing spots in my apartment, and we performed in parallel simultaneously. I never took curbside delivery for threesome, even when some of the girls explicitly proposed it, or were difficult to reject. Threesome is next to impossible with strangers. BTW, dispatchers quoted 4000 UAH to have sex with two girls at once, and 6000 if lesbi show between the girls was requested. I didn't bite.

Therefore the above count of 14 rejected is not exactly 33% or 50% of all 28 girls I had. Still 14 seems high, but my 7 weeks stay in Kiev was the longest ever.

4 out of 24 hourly girls I gave a lower rating of 5-7 for face and 5-6 body. 2 had excessive weight but were eager to accommodate, and while very much enjoyable once, I had no desire to repeat any of these 4 due to relatively easy availability of better resources.

The other 20 out of 24 hourly girls I considered "good" core, and looked into them further with analytical magnifying glass, as it interested me in terms of statistically representative set, characterizing average girls available in Kiev for 1400-2000 UAH per hour.

1 girl out of those 20 I had on 3 separate occasions. 3 out of 20 were delivered twice.

9 out of 20 I extended for the second hour. 3 out of 20 received 500 UAH bonus.

Age spanned from 18 to 26.

3 out of 20 were 26 years old and all 3 were gorgeous 9 face and 9 body. One of them looked no older than 20.

Two were sweet 18. Six were 19 years old.

Average age was 21.

Average rating for face was slightly under 8. There were none equal to or higher than 10's. But Seven girls were 9's, Six 8's, Six 7's and even one at 4 (I kept her because body was 8, I was horny, and she tried so hard! Sex was 9, and complimentary DATY at 10 for sure!

Average rating for body (again for core 20) was slightly under 9. Two were 10. Eleven girls at 9.

The latter is a major observation about Kiev girls. They have better bodies than faces.

Kiev girls work hard on improving and maintaining their bodies. Competition is fierce! Unlike dressed up beauties in the club, or face makeup, not much can be done about naked body, except eating right, working out at the gym religiously, and having good genetic material. I despise enhanced body of any sort, and there were none in this price segment.

Average attitude was slightly above 10. That's a tricky one. Only one girl got 6 for attitude, because she tried to squeeze from me a payment for DATY, after visibly enjoying it, and with my prior denial of any upsells. Otherwise her performance in bed (sex) was rated 9. Go figure!

I never pay extra for DFK or DATY or BBBJ or any extra service for that matter. Attempts to upsell quickly diminish the probability of earning a bonus, or even getting extended. BTW, bonus is never announced, it just happens when I feel like giving it. Any whining about hungry kids at home, or surgery needed for favorite dog, leads to shutdown. I also consider 1-hour extension as a bonus of sorts, even though I do it primarily for my own selfish reasons, but I always ask the girl if she wants to stay longer.

The very first hourly girl, that I had after checking in into AirBnB upon arrival, gave me Greek for free, and insisted that I go to completion, even though she wasn't totally comfortable, I asked if she wanted me to switch to more conventional, and after a short discussion she explained that she wanted me satisfied. The archetypical pinnacle of Ukrainian service! It happened to me 1 year ago with another girl, who definitely enjoyed it, and didn't even blink while doing it on two separate occasions. I personally do not care about Greek so much, but in the heat of the moment things happen)).

Going back to attitude.

6 out of 20 rated at 9.

4 out of 20 rated at 10.

4 out of 20 were definitely statistical outliers subjectively rated 12, 15, 19 and 21.

I use linear rating scale. 10 means better than 90% of population. But then there are girls that are out of this world! They make up a very slim fraction within that 10% of the best, and I give them rating above 10.21 (as in blackjack) is outstanding. Still on my subjective scale no outlier can go above 30.30 is Goddess.

Performance (sex) somewhat correlates with Attitude. Three 19 years old (out of 20 core girls) rated at 6 for lack of experience or being overworked and tired. There were no 8's. Otherwise six 9's, seven 10's, and four outliers.

Second major observation about Kiev girls: their attitudes are noticeably better than their looks (facial features), but their performance in bed (sex) is even better than attitudes. Most of the Kiev girls in the above 1400-2000 category like sex without a doubt. Surely treating them nicely is a must. So is getting them fresh, when they just start their shift. And I made a conscious effort to have fresh ones. Waited for 9-10 am and 7 pm shift starts.

I had a separate rating category. Would I go with this girl to Theater? As Kozerog stated: "Would I be proud of her?" That category didn't score as high as performance / sex, but still there were Eight 9's, Four 10's, 3 outliers at 12, 15 and 18 rating, but also three girls rated 7 and even one lowly 4 (the above mentioned hard-trying girl with ugly face and nice body). Good performer isn't always the best eye candy for going out with.

Subcategories in performance are Kissing, Vaginal, Oral / BJ, Anal and DATY.

My opinion of BJ is simple: if it's great I am happy, if there's none then I don't care much. If the girl tries and fails it can be because of poor attitude (bad rating) or genuine lack of skill for newbies (not as bad, especially if she listens and improves as we go, but still not as great).

Kissing, vaginal intercourse, and DATY are much more important to me, than BJ covered or not. BTW few hourly girls did BBBJ for free. One asked not to tell anybody, as agency forces girls to charge for extras.

I already scored sex / performance in general, so breakdown for DATY vs. DFK shows that 6 girls refused the former, but out of 14 that enjoyed cuni, only one was at 9, there rest were above.

Five were at 10, and eight outliers went above 10. Understandably this is perhaps the most subjective category, because I mainly rated my level of enjoyment during the DATY process + how responsive and delicious the young lady was. Average DATY rating over 14 girls was 13 (higher than 10, due to highly rated outliers).

It is worth mentioning that out of 28 girls total, 14 went for DATY without extra pay. Including 4 LT GFs that makes 17 = 14+3 as 1 LT "rental" GF was new, and we didn't learn each other enough yet to go all the way)).

Difficult to believe that it was well over the half 17 out of 28, but that's a hard fact. True, most of them had a drink or few, and some were evasive in the beginning, but then succumbed to the desire. Maybe Kiev girls rarely get DATY. I didn't dare to ask.

Kissing picture was interesting: slightly more girls (7) refused it, and there was a higher dispersion. Three girls were rated low at 6, 3 and 1 respectively. The other 10 out of 20 were: Three at 8, Four at 10, and 3 outliers at 17,18 and 19. Average DFK rating over 13 girls was almost 10, again due to outliers, and yet lower than average DATY of 13.

There are two observations: Kiev girls either enjoy kissing and do great (8, 10 and above), or they refuse and pretend. The other observation: Kiev girls enjoy DATY more frequently and to a greater extent than DFK. Most of DATY cases are rated high, DFK ratings distribution is more spread out.

Price range has been stated at 1400-2000+100 taxi fee. I refused to pay higher. Total money spent on 20 core girls was 71000 UAH or about 2850 USD over 37 hours.

Now the most interesting parameters:

Average hourly rate for the above 20 core girls was 1920 UAH (many were 2000+100).

Average charge per one shot on target was even higher 2125 UAH, because some of the extended sessions had only one completion. I was not in a hurry. Handling hourly girls that way (as opposed to fuck them as much and as hard as possible) helps me to convert the best ones to LT GFs more easily, or at least to get their phone numbers.

BTW, be super careful while exchanging messages with girls. I know stories of apartment enforcers checking all the messengers on premises and imposing heavy penalties of a few hundred dollars per occurrence. All they need to see a phone number of a customer.

Another example of slavery is web-camera at one of the apartments and no allowing the girls to sleep, even when they aren't engaged in primary activity one way or the other.

Anyway, since these hourly girls were on the clock by their dispatchers and mama-sans, 1920 and 2125 are dancing around my 2000 UAH / hour target price.

Same analysis for my 4 LT "rental" GFs showed even higher average rating for body and marginally lower for face, as I do not value looks that much. Their attitude, performance (sex), DFK and Style (going to Theater) are obviously rated much higher than hourly girls, because that's how I chose these GFs in the first place. DATY is slightly lower, and I attribute this to lack of novelty, fading away freshness factor, so important in DATY.

These 4 girls stayed with me an equivalent of nineteen 24-hour periods (day and night included). Yes, I like to go to sleep with a young 20, 22, 23 years old in my arms, and then make love to her at 6 in the morning, then let her sleep till 10 or 11 am, and bring her breakfast in bed.

Total expense on these 4 GFs was 100 K UAH, with one of them getting slightly more than half of it and staying over 14 days total, with some of her individual stays as short as 2 hours, and none longer than 3 days for her specifically. She is not from Kiev, but visited frequently.

Resulting individual hourly rates for rental GFs varied from 165 UAH / hour over 14 days up to 850 UAH over 2 visits 7 hours each. Significantly lower than hourly girls, even after factoring in expensive and cheap eating out, drinking at will, Theater, decent shopping, transportation and envelopes with cash.

Now the main number for LT GFs: Average charge per one shot on target was exorbitant 4000 UAH. Yes, I surely enjoyed our time together, and didn't mind extra expense as it was happening. Inevitably approaching my 60 in a few years, I do not recover that quickly, and do not pretend to have another honeymoon marathon in bed. But still, hourly girls are soooo much cheaper, if bang for the buck is most critical.

I like having a young woman next to me all the time, and lower overall hourly rate is beneficial. Hence I constantly work on updating my Harem.

There was one more reason for outrageously high 4000 UAH / shot number. Here is why it is skewed.

I delayed the arrival of my rental GF#3 due to unexpected overlap / arrival on the commuter train of the favorite GF#1. In fact I was triple booked, but Vitrea helped with offloading a great one by taking care of her. Later on after 2 days delay GF#3 finally arrived into my bed, her perfumes unpacked from the suitcase into my shower, many of her dresses hanging in the wardrobe, my hand reaching down her panties, and that's precisely when she said that she has period! Why the fuck did she arrive then? I asked myself silently but kept my cool. Well surely she wanted to be one and only, and it took me 3 days before I politely asked her to depart. That's when she said that tonight and tomorrow morning she is all mine. I used both opportunities, and watched her leave anyway. Discipline is paramount in Harem.

In the meantime the favorite GF#1 announced the same predicament. And as an icing on the cake, the 3rd one newly converted GF#4 said that we can meet today after she is done at the gym but she is also in the same condition. The luck of the draw! All three at once! I managed to have 8 hourly girls while waiting over. That is why the above 4000 number is definitely skewed.

I also thought hard about retiring GF#3 after this loosely disguised cock-blocking of hers, but she is such a good lay, very feminine, smart, and most importantly, as the best Ukrainian girls, she doesn't ask unnecessary questions. She lets me seeing other girls without any fuzz. Would be difficult to replace her. I am not sure yet.

What is the conclusion? If the main objective is to have an illusion of returning to Youth with a beautiful 20-something by your side, then hourly girls (including GIA) over longer periods of time are out of the question due to quickly accumulating costs. Out-of-town girlfriends have much lower rate. The same applies to Mamba, Tinder and other indie sources.

But the bang for the buck with LT GFs is at a much higher rate. It becomes similar to wives and lovers under permanent sponsorship. For that purpose hourly girls at 2000 UAH or perhaps 150-200 USD per few hours and 2-3 shots are the best.

Hope this was partially informational at least for some of us.

P.S. How did I find these girls? Again do not ask me for contacts. The secret is simple. Cast the wide net frequently, define the requirements clearly, have adequate funds, do not be afraid to reject and recharge, speak local language, and stay in Kiev for multiple weeks, or visit frequently.