Rants and WTF are you talking about and Coronavirus!

[Pistons]

My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthca...ce-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes....ct-scientists/

But if you read my post again, I don't say there is no human made global warming. I just say cloud seeding is the reason for it. Not co2.

I have read too many papers on this to count, and all the co2 gang does is to pull up parallel charts. The same way Erasmus Montanus compares his mom to a stone. Since they both cannot fly. They must be the same!

But the only thing that has been tested with proof and shows warming effects are clouds!

The main reason for the CO2 being demonized are peak oil. Since we are about to run out of the cheap to extract resource. Thus we have to tax it in order to diversify our energy mix. It is a long term safety strategy. Just like the CCP safety tactics in order to hide the corona virus.

[Pistons]

What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 , you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

Bugatti is Volkswagen. So it is a German company now, and has been since 1998. It doesn't matter that they band themselves as french. Same with Seat and Skoda.

[Pessimist]

Yes this is a rare evolutionary development and many things are not fully understood about it. But where does it say in any of those articles that it was man made?

Viruses do occasionally evolve in an unpredictable manner, the explanation isn't that complex, the more humans intrude into previously untouched natural realms, the higher the chance of something like this happening.

We are not sure how this happened, eating exotic animals or a study of bats, but this is far from unimaginable.

All the major diseases we have today, tuberculosis and so on, came from the agrarian revolution and were passed from animals to humans.

So these articles do not contradict the scientific "consensus". Also we don't need to get to the exact source to understand a lot about the virus, there are numerous viral samples whose RNA can be sequenced as McAdonis pointed out.

If this is a biological weapon it is a very ineffective one with a shockingly low mortality rate.

I am glad you and Mr McAdonis are convinced of the existence of the scientific "consensus". Is it an article of faith? The papers I included do not say they are man made, and I did not say they do. They say work needs to be done to establish the origins of the virus. Which means the origin is still inconclusive. You say there is already a consensus Re: how it came about. But active research work is going on to investigate those origins.

It seems to me that the people claiming it is "not man made" have already made up their minds. Hence this rush to claim a scientific consensus, and an urgency to shut down alternate voices by minimizing them as "conspiracy theories with loony political motives". Be that as it may, the normal scientific process including a proper investigation by real scientists that one can trust was blocked. I am amazed that you think a consensus was formed in the absence of an independent investigation. If you truly believe in science and more importantly in scientific process, how is any conclusion and consensus formed when investigators are blocked?

As for bio weapon. The objective need not be the death toll. From the beginning I said it was to narrow the economic gap between China On one side and traditional western societies on the other, and to help perpetuate Xi atop China. That objective has been achieved to some extent.

[Sirioja]

What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 , you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

Japanese Honda NSX was really interesting for perfect architecture for balance, formula 1 architecture. Mitsou lancer evo was the only one which could compete with Escort RS Cosworth before Ford killed her very fast, when Ford don t know much about European standards for car quality, even Mustang is legend from Bullit but can t compete in Europe. Nevertheless Ford improved on 2 last decades, when building some dangerous cars before. We don t drive under 60 miles in Europe, when adrenaline is trying to pass full speed, over quattro and super soft tires grip, in new curve built on new autobahn before Neuss, I think Holz. Also great curves around Ulmen Nurburgring and between Kaiserlautern and Trier where I needed more than the 2 lines to control electronic quattro on 15 March, I don t understand how it work on rear wheels, xdrive is much easier to feel grip. I miss these weekly runs, maybe more than brothels. Also great curves around, between Carinthia and Zoncolan. Wish to go to Frioul, when I starting my Summer on this week end for at least 4 months for climbing, when couldn't ski on this Winter, just killing skis on Christmas.

[McAdonis]

Climate change:

There is no denying that humans have had a hand in climate change, but the question is if this was planned or not. Or just a result of water shortages around the world:

https://www.etcgroup.org/content/chi...l-or-otherwise

We know that lower clouds cools down the temperature, and that higher up clouds warms the temperature. This is undisputed. So guess what happens when we drain all the water away from the lower cloud layers.

My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthca...ce-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes....ct-scientists/

[McAdonis]

The point of this: There is a lo of work being done as we speak. To claim that the origin of virus is already settled science, "there is broad scientific consensus it is not man made" is not accurate when researchers are saying work needs to be done to investigate the origins.

"The virus's ability to bind protein on human cells was far greater than its ability to bind the same protein in bats, which argues against bats being a direct source of the human virus."

"While it has been suggested by some Chinese scientists that the COVID-19 virus might have been transmitted to humans from pangolins, currently available data does not support this idea," Professor Petrovsky says.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.01.073262v1

As Delta Indigo noted, the papers you linked do not contradict the scientific consensus. The authors appear to make two assertions: (1) that bats are not the "direct source" and (2) the pangolin was not the intermediate host. This aligns with the scientific consensus of bats being the indirect source. When they write "origins", the focus of their investigation is the exact path the virus took from bats to humans and at what point this virus evolved to its current pathogenic state. Scientists are not sure whether this mutation occurred while inside an animal host or a human host.

Also your link comes from a pre-print server. Please go to their home page: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/recent.

There you will find a disclaimer at the top of the page "bioRxiv is receiving many new papers on coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. A reminder: these are preliminary reports that have not been peer-reviewed. They should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice / health-related behavior, or be reported in news media as established information."

"Further evidence arises from the analysis of the overall molecular structure of the virus. Here the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differs significantly from previous coronaviruses known to infect humans. Instead, the molecular structure more closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins. Had the virus been artificially created, the developers would have used a virus already known to infect humans and modified this in order to increase the infectivity or severity.
According to lead researcher, Dr. Kristian Andersen: By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/science/essential-science-coronavirus-was-not-genetically-engineered/article/569127#ixzz6NvBcSMN9

Research paper: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9.

This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2s backbone its overall molecular structure. If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness. But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

These two features of the virus, the mutations in the RBD portion of the spike protein and its distinct backbone, rules out genetic engineering as a potential origin for SARS-CoV-2 said co-author Kristian Andersen, PhD, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research.

https://news.tulane.edu/pr/study-coronavirus-pandemic-sparked-nature-not-bioengineering

[Delta Indigo]

But how and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery that requires intensive further scientific investigation, the researchers conclude.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-...d-mystery.html

In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected. The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.01.073262v1

Yes this is a rare evolutionary development and many things are not fully understood about it. But where does it say in any of those articles that it was man made?

Viruses do occasionally evolve in an unpredictable manner, the explanation isn't that complex, the more humans intrude into previously untouched natural realms, the higher the chance of something like this happening.

We are not sure how this happened, eating exotic animals or a study of bats, but this is far from unimaginable.

All the major diseases we have today, tuberculosis and so on, came from the agrarian revolution and were passed from animals to humans.

So these articles do not contradict the scientific "consensus". Also we don't need to get to the exact source to understand a lot about the virus, there are numerous viral samples whose RNA can be sequenced as McAdonis pointed out.

If this is a biological weapon it is a very ineffective one with a shockingly low mortality rate.

[Sirioja]

I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.

What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 €, you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

[McAdonis]

As for the virus itself, saying something like "scientists believe" is not a particularly compelling evidence or conclusion. Virus origination is an issue which can be established with a good amount of accuracy as I understood. It is not something which scientists "need to believe" - if they are able to investigate, they can actually trace it all the way back. We are not able to do it because the country of origin has blocked all efforts in that direction. And I will also point out that this is a fast evolving situation. Our understanding of the virus, what works and what doesn't, what it is or not, are all evolving. Till a few days ago, children were thought to be fairly safe and then they found some symptoms along the lines of Kawasaki syndrome. CDC did not think masks were super helpful and then they changed their recommendation.

My understanding is the CDC asked the public not to buy N95 masks, because they were in limited supply and needed to be prioritized for medical workers who were most at risk. If science truly believed masks provided zero defense to airborne viruses, then medical workers would not have worn them either. The CDC flip-flopped on the idea of the general public wearing cloth masks. There was never a consensus reached on that subject. In fact, there is still an open debate on the efficacy of cloth masks, especially if people do not wear them properly or care for them. So the CDC might flip-flop on this again in another three months. Even if scientific consensus is reached, politicians can still override scientific recommendations if it does not adhere to their political, moral, religious viewpoints, or economic interests.

I also wonder why it is that you are more eager to find faults and shortcomings in the acceptance of science in US society while it is the rogue regime in China that is blocking an investigation which is of enormous help and interest to all humanity. Regardless of what you think of science and it's acceptance in the US society, if you see the technology or healthcare industries, the market share of US companies and the wealth generated by US based companies in these sectors has continually increased over time.

I never questioned America's scientific prowess. Quite the contrary, I said that science was what made America great and hopefully science continues to make America great. The sheer number of American Nobel Prize winners in science validates this. The world's best universities are in the USA. The world's best minds continue to immigrate to USA (over a third of Nobel Prize in science winners since 2000 are immigrants). I am starting to get the impression that you believe that I am anti-American, and I suspect your opinion is partly due to me saying that the virus was not man-made. You are free to believe this. But let me also say this. My opinion that the virus is not man-made is also shared by US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Mark Milley, who has over 40 years of military service. Also my opinion could change, as new evidence is disclosed. Maybe I am just brainwashed. Maybe I am too deferential to experts.

[Beijing4987]

The administrator determines what is allowed. A poster on the Thai forum was allowed a special thread: "stupid shit" for his boasting. But it migrates to other threads. Nobody knows the difference any more. Administration does. Steve Stills wrote in his song For what it's worth: "Step out of line, the man, the man he comes and takes you away".

[Pistons]

Climate change:

There is no denying that humans have had a hand in climate change, but the question is if this was planned or not. Or just a result of water shortages around the world:

https://www.etcgroup.org/content/chi...l-or-otherwise

We know that lower clouds cools down the temperature, and that higher up clouds warms the temperature. This is undisputed. So guess what happens when we drain all the water away from the lower cloud layers.

[Pessimist]

Here are a couple of counter examples.

The second one has 3 authors of which 2 have Chinese sounding names.

The point of this: There is a lo of work being done as we speak. To claim that the origin of virus is already settled science, "there is broad scientific consensus it is not man made" is not accurate when researchers are saying work needs to be done to investigate the origins. The Flinders team is one of the leaders in a vaccine development in Australia, per media articles. I don't know how good are the second paper's authors. But how do we know their research is less valid? As I asked "who is included in this broad scientific consensus"? And who is excluded? How did scientific consensus rush to reach such broad based consensus so fast?

The study, led by Flinders University scientists, compared the modeling to the virus's ability to bind to human cells and found the SARS-CoV-2 virus targets humans more potently than any of the tested animal species.

"The results clearly show that the COVID-19 virus is exquisitely adapted to infect humans," says Flinders University Professor Nikolai Petrovsky, lead author of a new paper just published online in arXiv, a leading US preprint server for researchers.

"The virus's ability to bind protein on human cells was far greater than its ability to bind the same protein in bats, which argues against bats being a direct source of the human virus."

The team's computer modeling shows the SARS-CoV-2 virus also bound strongly to cells of pangolins, an exotic ant-eater illegally imported into China.

"While it has been suggested by some Chinese scientists that the COVID-19 virus might have been transmitted to humans from pangolins, currently available data does not support this idea," Professor Petrovsky says.

How and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery, the scientists conclude, adding that finding the origins of the disease will help efforts to protect people against future coronavirus pandemics.

The research points to a number of reasons why the virus became so well adapted to humans, such as convergent evolution after exposure to human cells, rare mutations that mix two species genes, and exposure to human cells very early in the pandemic.

But how and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery that requires intensive further scientific investigation, the researchers conclude.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-...d-mystery.html

In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected. The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.01.073262v1

[Pessimist]

I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.

I wish Europe was stronger. Or more united. In this bipolar world, we increasingly need a stronger Europe. I find the work life balance they have achieved more attractive than what I find in the US with its never ending treadmill. But if anything, Europe has continuously lost ground since 2009 and the gap between US to Europe or China to Europe has gone against Europe in 12 years. If I could make my pay check in the US and spend it in Europe, that would be a most attractive life, that's what I want. I bet a lot of American men would take such a deal.

As for the companies you mentioned, here are some numbers: Sony had revenue of $84 be in fiscal 2011, now it is at $75 be. It is actually one of the stronger tech companies in Japan and has a market value of $80 be now but that is compared to Apple at $1,380 be as an example. Panasonic had sales of $99 be in fiscal 2012, now it is $69 B. Toshiba had sales of $75 be in fiscal 2012, now $32 be. Canon has revenues of $32 be now, vs $44 be in fiscal 2011 (Canon makes very good office products such as the main parts of printers that HP sells, strong in imaging systems, medical equipment, etc). Toyota is still strong, $200 be sales in 2010, $275 be now. Softbank is extremely indebted, Masa Son had the good fortune of investing in Alibaba early but his luck has run out now, too many mistakes of late.

[Pessimist]

China is most likely hiding that there was some sort of accident at the lab. I posted a link from Dot Gov website, not some liberal rag. This link from the Director of National Intelligence states that the scientific consensus believes the virus is not man made. There is consensus on climate change amongst the scientific community as well, yet some politicians continue to discredit climate change. This is a recurring theme. The tragedy is that science is partly what made the USA the most powerful nation on earth. Internet, space program, etc. Here is a opinion piece from American astrophysicist:

"Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...70467619886266.

I do not think it is appropriate to expand the topic of discussion to include some other topic to support a particular point of view. I do not think throwing in a second topic into the mix in anyway provides evidence to a particular side of the argument in the first topic. However, you are obviously welcome to bring in all these additional topics such as global warming into the mix.

As for the virus itself, saying something like "scientists believe" is not a particularly compelling evidence or conclusion. Virus origination is an issue which can be established with a good amount of accuracy as I understood. It is not something which scientists "need to believe" - if they are able to investigate, they can actually trace it all the way back. We are not able to do it because the country of origin has blocked all efforts in that direction. And I will also point out that this is a fast evolving situation. Our understanding of the virus, what works and what doesn't, what it is or not, are all evolving. Till a few days ago, children were thought to be fairly safe and then they found some symptoms along the lines of Kawasaki syndrome. CDC did not think masks were super helpful and then they changed their recommendation. To think that some consensus has already been established is just not credible. Who are the scientists included in this consensus poll? To take a snippet from a particular website and present it does not mean that argument has gained any great amount of credibility. The US government has several dozens of agencies and each with their own websites, and each site has thousands of pages. Not all of these pages are updated in real time and not all of them are consistent. If you want to "prove your pov" by posting a snippet from a particular page that says "scientists believe this is not man made", yes you will find a page I am sure. But I wonder how any consensus is already formed in less than a few months of virus outbreak, when these scientists were not able to conduct the sort of investigation that they normally do to come to such conclusions and consensus, and why is it necessary to believe anything as if it is an article of faith instead of doing a thorough investigation. I also wonder why it is that you are more eager to find faults and shortcomings in the acceptance of science in US society while it is the rogue regime in China that is blocking an investigation which is of enormous help and interest to all humanity. Regardless of what you think of science and it's acceptance in the US society, if you see the technology or healthcare industries, the market share of US companies and the wealth generated by US based companies in these sectors has continually increased over time.

[Pistons]

Seems Softbank is not Japanese. It is registered in Bermuda.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...s-sources-say/#. XtDcyGmxVzA.