General Info

[BigBuddy69]

I have heard this sentiment before as well from older Romanians, or younger Romanians telling me about what their parents and grandparents sometimes say in passing.

You can also find some East-Germans complaining about the good old days. There was food and housing for everyone. Problem, the country had a tremendous and continuously growing debt towards the West-Germany and basically it was not sustainable. And although the regime was not as authoritarian as in the neighbor countries, the lack of freedom was really getting on the nerves of the younger generation.

[Sirioja]

I think we are all confused about your point. What is it exactly? Succinct without digression to other topics would help clarify.

In summary, responses to what I've read:

No, Romania has never reached 30 million people and has not been anywhere near 15 million since the fall of communism.

Using 200-300 e hotels in a resort area full of western holiday goers to demonstrate high cost of living is misleading and is a poor and inaccurate representation of Romania's cost of living and thus quality of life. I stayed at a modest but comfortable hotel in Central-Sibiu for less than 20 E per night. The Hilton hotel in my city costs over 200 euro tonight, it's 70 e in Sibiu tonight. Even dining out Sibiu costs about half of German prices. It's even much less if you visit local establishments outside of city centers. I had a soup, pork, Pommes, and a beer at a restaurant near Transfagarasan for less than 25 lei, that's like 5 euro.

Of course people left Romania after communism as there would be transition pains. Communist societies do not have the infrastructure to suddenly switch to capitalistic economies at the turn of a dime so of course people left in search of western income..

Do you know Romanians who knew before the wall? When WGs don't know. Most of Romanians are poorer now compare to increasing prices there than they were before the wall, and same in Bulgaria, Moldavia, Ukraine and big part of Russia, when not even minimum salary in Hungary. Do you think most attractive places now in Romania are Sibiu? Ask WGs with their 15000/20000 monthly earning when average for Romanians will be below 500, about around Brasov resort for ski, or black sea and they will tell you: very expensive there, for them, so what about so many Romanians now living in misery which was not so important before the wall. DDR was lucky to return to Germany, Czech Republic managed not so bad, but most of behind the past wall, fell in misery after the wall fall, why so many and many others than WGs left their country, even they love their country and send or bring back money to their family, when I don't plan to leave France, to go to work abroad, despite we have the highest tax. I didn't write they had better life, even those I work with didn't seem to suffer so much before the wall when Romania was different for culture than others behind the wall, despite crazy Ceacescu, but they were less poor than now when became expensive to buy a roof to live when for almost free before, when foods became expensive according to low salaries there, must be a reason so many left to find work abroad and I don t see most of them living in luxury but mostly working low level jobs but better paid than at home. New freedom, but can you really enjoy when You are in misery? When Romanian women make FKK land to be fucked by richer guys, when most will choose a Romanian to marry and make baby.

How many percent of Chinese can access to new luxury?

[PaulInZurich]

I have heard this sentiment before as well from older Romanians, or younger Romanians telling me about what their parents and grandparents sometimes say in passing. It surprised me at first, but it happened too many times to be a one-off. Sometimes people just look back at their youth with nostalgia. Other possible explanation is that not everybody was persecuted to the same degree, at least not at the same time. I believe many of those dictatorships delivered on their promise to improve the quality of life for the average citizen, it was just not sustainable. Severe food shortages and not having heat in the winter happened towards the last years of the regime. Did not read these, maybe will later, but just skimmed, but one seems to suggest the downward spiral started in 1982 and lasted until the fall of regime in 1990:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can...ia-in-romania/

http://www.balkanalysis.com/romania/...for-communism/

Good post, you are elevating the discussion level here.

Ceausescu was initially seen as relatively progressive, he got in power in 1965 after Gheorghiu-Dej who was Romania's leader during Stalinist times. He publicly objected to the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 which made him quite popular at the time. As well, economically situation was improving even if from a low starting point, but seeing some progress people were optimistic. He got some support from Western countries, loans, visits from Nixon and de Gaulle, de Gaulle gave him the Légion d'honneur (Romania started manufacturing Renault licensed cars), got a horse carriage ride through London with Queen Elizabeth (Romania was supposed to build licensed BAC 1-11 jets). Unfortunately for Romania a visit to North Korea and China gave him lots of bad ideas so any progress started to be reversed. The decision to pay off foreign debt in a few years brought the economic suffering of the 80's.

My contact with Romanians (excluding WGs) is with people in their 30's or 40's with a university degree. It's a different perspective than one would get from construction workers or lettuce pickers.

[McAdonis]

I find it very hard to believe that somebody who really lived under communism says that life was better then.

This was life under communism in Romania in the 80's. Food rationed (cooking oil, eggs, flower, sugar, meat, etc) and on top of the rationing people had to stand in line for hours to actually get them. Shops with rows and rows of empty shelves. Electricity and heat rationed in the winter for the public. Political dissidents either in jail or in mental health institutions. Women sent to jail for abortions.

I have heard this sentiment before as well from older Romanians, or younger Romanians telling me about what their parents and grandparents sometimes say in passing. It surprised me at first, but it happened too many times to be a one-off. Sometimes people just look back at their youth with nostalgia. Other possible explanation is that not everybody was persecuted to the same degree, at least not at the same time. I believe many of those dictatorships delivered on their promise to improve the quality of life for the average citizen, it was just not sustainable. Severe food shortages and not having heat in the winter happened towards the last years of the regime. Did not read these, maybe will later, but just skimmed, but one seems to suggest the downward spiral started in 1982 and lasted until the fall of regime in 1990:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can...ia-in-romania/

http://www.balkanalysis.com/romania/...for-communism/

And 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism, while only 23% attested that their life was worse then. Some 68% declared that communism was a good idea, just one that had been poorly applied.

[Mursenary]

You are such a follower who doesn't even try to understand the meaning. Can't you understand difference between level of life when they had house for free and cheap price foods, when life is expensive now in many places in Romania and they have low salary, when I didn't write they got better life under crazy Ceacescu. Why do you think, when they got freedom after the wall, so many left their country? Because they had a good life? Because they don't like their country? When all WGs tell me Romania is beautiful and Romanians who work with me are so happy to return home for holidays, they even took 5 weeks on last Summer, even they told they didn't make enough money because of covid. A bit like I love to go to climb Zoncolan or Mortirolo or many others, every year for my holidays, motivated by my passion, when most of professionnal racers, even they are under doping, find my spots very difficult and would prefer races avoid Zoncolan and I doubt they will love new Loze. FR. Same like being innocent as long you are not judged guilty, from proves against you.

I think we are all confused about your point. What is it exactly? Succinct without digression to other topics would help clarify.

In summary, responses to what I've read:

No, Romania has never reached 30 million people and has not been anywhere near 15 million since the fall of communism.

Using 200-300 e hotels in a resort area full of western holiday goers to demonstrate high cost of living is misleading and is a poor and inaccurate representation of Romania's cost of living and thus quality of life. I stayed at a modest but comfortable hotel in Central-Sibiu for less than 20 E per night. The Hilton hotel in my city costs over 200 euro tonight, it's 70 e in Sibiu tonight. Even dining out Sibiu costs about half of German prices. It's even much less if you visit local establishments outside of city centers. I had a soup, pork, Pommes, and a beer at a restaurant near Transfagarasan for less than 25 lei, that's like 5 euro.

Of course people left Romania after communism as there would be transition pains. Communist societies do not have the infrastructure to suddenly switch to capitalistic economies at the turn of a dime so of course people left in search of western income.

I don't think food and housing is the metric to consider when looking at Romania's quality of life. Sure they had housing back then and rationed food. But is that any worse now? Sure, communism provided the bare necessities, but in 2021 those basic necessities are not an average Romanian's concerns. They go west to pursue a more extravagant life, not to just barely make enough to pay for food and housing. In short, they are only poor in comparison to their new western expectations but not in comparison to the life communist society previously provided.

The only people I have ever heard support 20th century communist life are the young ones who have never actually lived through it. 21st century communism in China is a whole other story. It's not a true communist society as the economy and culture is very capitalistic so the people there actually enjoy a fair degree of luxury and upward social mobility.

[Sirioja]

I find it very hard to believe that somebody who really lived under communism says that life was better then.

This was life under communism in Romania in the 80's. Food rationed (cooking oil, eggs, flower, sugar, meat, etc) and on top of the rationing people had to stand in line for hours to actually get them. Shops with rows and rows of empty shelves. Electricity and heat rationed in the winter for the public. Political dissidents either in jail or in mental health institutions. Women sent to jail for abortions.

You are such a follower who doesn't even try to understand the meaning. Can't you understand difference between level of life when they had house for free and cheap price foods, when life is expensive now in many places in Romania and they have low salary, when I didn't write they got better life under crazy Ceacescu. Why do you think, when they got freedom after the wall, so many left their country? Because they had a good life? Because they don't like their country? When all WGs tell me Romania is beautiful and Romanians who work with me are so happy to return home for holidays, they even took 5 weeks on last Summer, even they told they didn't make enough money because of covid. A bit like I love to go to climb Zoncolan or Mortirolo or many others, every year for my holidays, motivated by my passion, when most of professionnal racers, even they are under doping, find my spots very difficult and would prefer races avoid Zoncolan and I doubt they will love new Loze. FR. Same like being innocent as long you are not judged guilty, from proves against you.

[PaulInZurich]

Romanians I work with tell me they had a better level of life under communism, when life is much more expensive now.

I find it very hard to believe that somebody who really lived under communism says that life was better then.

This was life under communism in Romania in the 80's. Food rationed (cooking oil, eggs, flower, sugar, meat, etc) and on top of the rationing people had to stand in line for hours to actually get them. Shops with rows and rows of empty shelves. Electricity and heat rationed in the winter for the public. Political dissidents either in jail or in mental health institutions. Women sent to jail for abortions.

[Sirioja]

The population was at its peak under the leadership of Nicolae Ceausescu but declined after he was deposed?

When the wall fell, when people were not paid anymore by government, all ex CCCP countries fell in misery, millions of Romanians left to go to Italy, Spain, France where I work with some. DDR was included by Germany. Romanians I work with tell me they had a better level of life under communism, when life is much more expensive now. Hotel room in Mamaia on black sea is 150/200 € , when my best FKK girl, and she was interesting to chat with at this time, told me on end of 2016 , she made 200/300/ month, working in the biggest restaurant of an average town, not so far from Bucharest, not in far deep Moldavian part. Fortunately, she got tips to get a bit more, but she told: I can t live with only this, and she was I think advised to go to brothels and she could buy a new car with her first month earning, but not for her, and when she told me she returned to family for 1 month and I was happy for her, even we just started, meeting only on 2 visits but already 4 rooms, but she was back after only 10 days, angry to have to return so fast she said, she could become angry quite fast, so I answered: why didn't you stay with your family? Because I need money, when she spent her money to buy a car for somebody, also planning to buy kind of business really not for a princess type. They got freedom, and misery, when they had house for free under communism. Different times, different life, but less than half population 30 years after. Also heard from some girls, they lost money trying business, maybe from peste advices.

[PaulInZurich]

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...L?locations=RO

Max: 23,2 M.

Now: 19,3 M.

Strange, ceaucescu made them fuck like rabbits.

Ceausescu banned abortions in the late 60's, that brought a bump in the number of births until mid to late 70's. After 1990 and the post communism economy crash many people were leaving. That was made easy when Romania joined the EU. https://www.oecd.org/countries/roman...ac53150-en.htm.

1. 1 million Romanians living in Italy, 700 k in Germany, more than 600 k in Spain 450 k in UK etc.

Most of the population decline is due to emigration.

[Turgid]

When I learned at school in 80's, Romania had 35 millions citizens, but fell to 15 millions in 2000's.

The population was at its peak under the leadership of Nicolae Ceausescu but declined after he was deposed?

[Pistons]

No sport is pure. Sure, the most skill is involved in a sport, the relative importance of doping decreases, but it's still there.

Diving: Ilya Zakharov.

Snowboarding: Matt Hamilton, Nikita Avtaneeve.

Kayaking: Andras Redl, the strange case of Yasuhiro Suzuki and Seiji Komatsu maybe a different type of cheating.

Heck how weird is what is done in paralympics? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-p...0T61VS20151117.

It's not done for money only.

Fine, though your Canadian snowboarder is a Paralympian slalom expert. And the Russian is just a part of a national doping program. I don't feel like those two examples are that great. But there have been rumors of some doping in order to get higher up in the quarter pipe. Then again, maybe that's why quarter pipe is not an Olympic discipline yet.

[Pistons]

Saw a video on YouTube a week or two ago from Bucharest regarding the boom in girls on the street trying to make money there. Police and even the minister of labor was defending sex sales even if by law it is illegal.

Don't know what to say to that, but it is what it is.

[The Cane]

With their return, I wonder if all of that money earned in the West is now actually being spent in Romania. I keep up with one Romanian WG who seems to have saved up a decent bit of cash from her five years working. She's been home for over a year now and has been living her best life shopping and going out all of the time. If all of the non-WGs who have been abroad for so many years are doing the same, I can see all of that Western money stimulating Romania's retail sector.

Same here with one of my hot, blonde Romies. She's been home for more than a year now, and doesn't look the worse for wear. Always smiling and enjoying life and going with the flow. Good for her.

[PaulInZurich]

When I learned at school in 80's, Romania had 35 millions citizens, but fell to 15 millions in 2000's.

It must have been a pretty weak school, but I am not surprised in this case. Max Romania population was 23 millions.

[BigBuddy69]

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...L?locations=RO

Max: 23,2 M.

Now: 19,3 M.

Strange, ceaucescu made them fuck like rabbits.