Thread: Rants and WTF are you talking about and Coronavirus!
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04-25-21 03:48 #4763
Posts: 2073Originally Posted by Pessimist [View Original Post]
It might take them 15-20 years to hit their retirement number. That is 15-20 years of practicing a minimalist lifestyle, and I suspect by that time those money-saving habits will have become second nature, and continuing the minimalist lifestyle even after they hit their retirement number should not be an issue. Ofc, some people will do FIRE for three years, and then return to consumerism. But that will happen with any lifestyle change. To me it is sort of like saying a large portion of obese people who diet, always gain 100 percent of their weight back. It's hard to predict what will change in 15-20 years: salary stagnation, stock market, higher taxes, inflation. Like any financial plan, the couple practicing FIRE would need to continually reassess.
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04-25-21 03:32 #4762
Posts: 2344We're talking about First Gen immigrants, not you or I
Originally Posted by Pessimist [View Original Post]
No one is saying 1 million is wealthy. It is just a milestone point. Again, this conversation started with immigrants coming over to the US. And for someone whose family had nothing, $1 million is a big milestone that certainly signals that you are not living in poverty. That's all.
Yes living that frugal sounds miserable to you and I, but that's because we grew up with certain expectations. But we are talking about people who grew up shitting outside where cleaning your ass means spraying it with a garden hose. Hell that's how I cleaned my ass up til the age of 6. Different expectations for people from different backgrounds.
To understand, you have to change the lens in which you view life. Regarding people immigrating here to make 7 figures and old first generation retirees, why are we even talking about dating upper middle class white women and home property values? Pulling upper middle class women is not the top concern for immigrants. Home depreciation is not either. Hell, we had a lawn that was 50/50 dirt and grass. There were no trimming of hedges, just a chain linked fence keeping the neighbor's pit bull from chomping on a kid's neck. First gen immigrants are not exactly dating McKaylas and Britneys with Gucci sunglasses and Patagonia vests. Hell, even if he spent the cash, social class intangibles makes that not likely anyway.
As for 200 K having to live frugal to get to millions, that's not even necessary. Literally, a 30 year old married couple making 200 K annually only needs to save 10% per year invested at a modest 7% annual return, that alone is $2,600,000 by the time they are 65. And that's not factoring any rise in income whatsoever. That's millions by saving only 10%.
Are you saying that 10% savings is too much to ask for the 200 K couple? Does that even require frugality? If you are saying it does, that's quite a truckload of bull-fertilizer.
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04-25-21 01:41 #4761
Posts: 1385Originally Posted by Mursenary [View Original Post]
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/14/the-...an-family.html
As CNBC says:
"And here's the median net worth of USA Families based on the age of the head of household:
Age 35 or younger: $11,100.
Age 35-44: $59,800.
Age 45-54: $124,200.
Age 55-64: $187,300.
Age 65-74: $224,100.
Age 75 or older: $264, 800."
Another link:
https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/F...rman-paper.pdf
This paper is a bit old but the data presented in various tables shows (a) married households and married households w / children tend to be 3 to 5 times richer than households headed by unmarried / singles. Home ownership follows a similar pattern.
All these media stories about FIRE etc feel good. In reality, when observing data accumulated over decades, you will see otherwise.
Anything is *possible*, especially when talking at the individual level. At the population level stratified by groups, changes are more glacial.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/14/the-...an-family.html
As CNBC says:
"And here's the median net worth of USA Families based on the age of the head of household:
Age 35 or younger: $11,100.
Age 35-44: $59,800.
Age 45-54: $124,200.
Age 55-64: $187,300.
Age 65-74: $224,100.
Age 75 or older: $264, 800."
Another link:
https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/F...rman-paper.pdf
This paper is a bit old but the data presented in various tables shows (a) married households and married households w / children tend to be 3 to 5 times richer than households headed by unmarried / singles. Home ownership follows a similar pattern.
All these media stories about FIRE etc feel good. In reality, when observing data accumulated over decades, you will see otherwise.
Again, you can present exceptions, say "I am single, never married, I have $10 M" - fine. Good for you. But at a group level, trends are very obvious.
I have not done the research, I am not a social scientist, I can't say why numbers showcase the above trends. Perhaps singles lose motivation to keep making huge amounts of money over time, and seek ways to splurge and have fun. Having a family responsibility is a powerful motivation to cut down on personal fun and splurging and provide for others, and you tend to work more, maximize income and savings? Work longer?
And BTW, a million dollar house may look like splurging to you but it is actually a wealth transfer from the government to the rich through a large tax break. Likewise, 401 K limits keep going up every year another $500 or $1000 and that is a big break to the wealthier strata. Many people in the sub $100 K struggle to maximize their contributions, far from it.
And while you think from the perspective of a single man, which is appropriate for this forum, the average person in the country is more like married, or divorced (with alimony and child payment responsibilities). So, all those #s you present need to account for a higher level of expense.
You can present exceptions, say "I am single, never married, I have $10 M" - fine. Good for you. But at a group level, trends are very obvious.
I am not a social scientist, I can't say why numbers showcase the above trends. Perhaps singles lose motivation to keep making huge amounts of money over time, and seek ways to splurge and have fun. Having a family responsibility is a powerful motivation to cut down on personal spend / splurging and provide for others; you tend to work more, maximize income and savings? Work longer?
And BTW, a million dollar house may look like splurging to you but it is actually a wealth transfer from the government to the wealthy through a tax break for mortgage interest. Likewise, 401 K limits keep going up every year another $500 or $1000 and that is a big break to the wealthier strata. Many people in the sub $100 K struggle to maximize their contributions, far from it. Fidelity publishes median account balances and you can see that. It is also likely the larger company 401 K matches accrue to those who are already wealthy.
And while you think from the perspective of a single man which is appropriate for this forum, the average person in the country is more likely married or divorced (with support and child payment responsibilities). So, all those #s you present need to account for a higher level of expense.
The examples you present sound Utopian: very few work diligently to accumulate $200 K by the age of 32, leave it serenely in an investment account untouched till it grows to $2 M and then retire to a low cost location. In between life happens, unexpected expenses happen, job losses happen, other crap happens and they raid the $200 K piggy bank vowing to put it back as soon as they make the money back.
If it was so easy to accumulate wealth, all the data tables would be saying so and not such sorry net worth numbers at the median for every age group.
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04-24-21 23:22 #4760
Posts: 1184To all the idiots
Originally Posted by PaulInZurich [View Original Post]
Unemployment up, national debt way up, bankruptcies up, mental health problems up and COVID-19 related deaths way up.
That's what we call an epic failure.
I can't believe that some idiots want the Indians to starve to death.
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04-24-21 21:00 #4759
Posts: 2344Originally Posted by McAdonis [View Original Post]
There's a growing movement toward this mindset comprised by many strategies. Obviously you would have to shed expectations of owning a pool, having a lawn guy, a house cleaner, or living in a Karen-operated HOA community. Taking on a mortgage for a 3000 sq foot home would probably be a bad idea. Anything meant to Keep Up with Karen Jones would be prohibited.
Basically the point is to save, save, save, save until you reach a modest threshold principal for long term investing. Say when you reach something very doable like $150-200 K at a younger age, say by your early thirties. At that point, you can leave the "rat race," let your investment grow conservatively over the next two decades or so. Meanwhile, you live a minimalist life, earning only what you need to fund that lifestyle. No more looking to advancing your career, no more working towards raises, but also not taking on debt that traps you into payments which requires a higher income. The point is to avoid higher ticket items and expenses that traps you into the perpetual luxury item-monthly payment cycle. You spend on what truly makes you happy, for me $20 K per year on hookers actually makes me happy. $4 K per month on mortgage / tax payments on a giant home would bring no more happiness than a modest $1500/ mo mortgage on a 1800 sq foot home. That 8 year old luxury sedan still looks and runs great. Purchasing a $100 K AMG does not provide any more happiness. If those high ticket items pull more women, are those the high maintenance women that I want?
End goal is once your first investment reaches an acceptable amount, then you live off of the dividends or growth of your investments. And like McA mentions, retirement does not have to be in an expensive western country. If in 25 years, your now $ 2 million retirement balance pays a 5% dividend of 100 K per year, imagine the live that affords you if spending your golden years in Belize or Indonesia.
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04-24-21 19:00 #4758
Posts: 22412Originally Posted by Turgid [View Original Post]
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04-24-21 18:10 #4757
Posts: 1385Originally Posted by McAdonis [View Original Post]
Also, millennials chose to rent and not buy because they saw what happened with housing debacle; they also did not have as much trust in stocks as prior generations did. So, they did not benefit from the booming market of last decade, as much as they could have.
"Caucasians at $1 M, I could see living frugally. Seems like there are enough millennial (mostly Caucasians) attempting this for it to be classified as a movement. " -Yes, but they are not there yet, are they? When they get to that level and still live frugally, we can have a discussion. Even as they reach half that level, their temptations will kick in and mindset will change. "Ah, I have $500 K in the bank, let me buy this or that" -- it starts with small purchases, feels good, they rationalize it and before you know it new habits are formed.
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04-24-21 17:48 #4756
Posts: 1385Originally Posted by Mursenary [View Original Post]
The rest of the items on my list: if someone already had millions, they would not live that frugal lifestyle, unless extremely miserly. Low six figures as unmarried or even $200 K as a married couple with possibly one or two kids living normally will not cut it to become a millionaire. Here millionaire is someone who thinks they are reasonably wealthy, not about strictly having one million which in most urban and semi urban settings in the US no longer qualifies as any real wealth. Yes, making $200 K as a couple, living a frugal life, can accumulate a million by the time they are in 60's if they stay disciplined.
Taxes alone subtract so much. If you did not buy a reasonable sized house and don't have deduction benefit, what else helps? Even w / 2 kids and just the standard deductions, might end up paying a good chunk to the tax man, especially if you also have a high state tax.
BTW, lawn maintenance, fertilizer, pool maintenance etc are not luxuries. If you buy a decent house, they come with it and then unless you maintain them well, your house value degrades fast; if your lawn has weed and spreads to your neighbor's, he will pick a fight. In my neighborhood, we do have a fair number of owners that do their own thing. They may be saving money, have more time, or enjoy doing it. I don't and I pay. But that work has to be done by you or some paid worker. You could live in a condo but that goes back to my point about if you and your spouse make decent money, wanting to live so frugally is not a natural instinct. Even if one of the two is inclined that way, the other has to agree which rarely happens. A woman who is making very nice money on her own will not put up w / that; it is not just keeping up w / Joneses, more a natural evolution of thinking and circumstances. You can't make these statements unless you have experienced the situation. Akin to some old lady that never had much of a sex drive claiming that mongering is unnecessary because no person needs this much sex.
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04-24-21 15:47 #4755
Posts: 5704Originally Posted by RockyV [View Original Post]
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04-24-21 14:43 #4754
Posts: 2073Originally Posted by Mursenary [View Original Post]
Originally Posted by Mursenary [View Original Post]
Migrant workers who work in a rich country and send money back home are probably the ultimate money-saving hack. Since they are transient it makes no sense to accumulate material possessions. So they can live in a high-wage city, then share cramped quarters with their countrymen to offset the high-rent. Food can also be purchased in bulk to cut costs. Just make a trip to Frankfurt main station and you can see this immigrant communal mindset at work: old Sprinter vans with Romanian license plates, workers trying to get a ride back home or to their next job location in Western Europe, people picking up sending packages. The difficulty for the migrant is just figuring out how to safely and cheaply get their cash back home.
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04-24-21 14:20 #4753
Posts: 2385To all the idiots
Take a look at what is happening in India and see what happens when you let the number of cases go up uncontrollably.
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04-24-21 13:48 #4752
Posts: 6732Currently I am scouring the woods in search of the Agarikon mushroom. I truly believe this mushroom will save me from covid or herpes!
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04-24-21 13:44 #4751
Posts: 2385Originally Posted by Clodius1 [View Original Post]
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04-24-21 13:02 #4750
Posts: 6732It went so parabolic a couple of weeks ago that fed just gave up:
https://www.kitco.com/news/2021-04-0...eve-Hanke.html
LOL!
Looking forward to getting a 1:1 trade on the usd!
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04-24-21 12:59 #4749
Posts: 6732That Asian dude must be a smart fella saving all that money for the times when all that money becomes worthless!
This is why smart people goes to FKKs and loose all their cash on Romanian pussy:
https://inflationchart.com/spx-in-m1