Stupid shit in Medellin

[JjBee62]

Are you stupid or are you just dumb? Forced quarantine of actual TB PATIENTS you compare to forced discaharge of people with nothing wrong with them, people with no disease to spread. But I guess we are going by they MIGHT get a disease to spread around. So if calculations are correct, now that the noncompliant selfish morons are gone we should see nobody in the military come up with the disease to spread around. If there was a Nobel prize for stupid you would be a repeat winner. But since there is not you will just have to keep settling for being a loser.

I don't recall anyone refusing the forced vaccinations I went through. Pretty sure they would have quickly been removed. Either that or, someone would have helped hold them down and they would have been vaccinated anyway.

This is pure speculation. What if the Pentagon mandate has less to do with spreading the disease and more to do with minimizing the serious illness cases? If 20% of your crew is incapacitated with Covid, you've got a problem. If 20% of your crew has a mild cough and fever, you're still able to operate.

[JjBee62]

Or, they survive as a paraplegic, and you, JB, taxpayers in general, and I have to support them in a vegetative state for years. I'm old enough to admit that I only started wearing my seat belt when my employer required it. It became a habit. Then it became a law.

So how others' behaviors affect the society in which they live does actually matter. A lot of the stuff I hear opposing vax mandates is the exact same crap from 40 years ago about seat belt laws. Now, I'm quite sure that seat belt usage is lower among the un vaxxed. I'd bet my own money on it if anyone can prove it. So it's the same kind of people saying it's personal choice to get thrown through the windshield who are saying it's personal choice to run around un vaxxed. And the non-seat belt wearers affect society inexorably in the long run via health care costs, but the anti vaxxers are affecting society more and faster because their inactions affect and infect everyone around them, all the time, all day long.

This is why Singapore now refuses to pay healthcare costs for any voluntarily unvaccinated person.

[JjBee62]

Your portrayal of me could not be further from the truth. I would consider my position to be somewhere between conservative and libertarian. It would also be fair to say 90%+ of the democrat party turns my stomach. But what you cannot say about me is that I follow a party line. Clearly you misinterpreted my last point about Dem vs Rep. Or maybe I wasn't clear; it works both ways. The vast majority of political discourse is party driven. That is a sad fact. Gone is independent thought. It is my side vs your side at all costs. Ideas? They don't matter. And as I have said repeatedly now, my only interest in this whole vaccine argument is to challenge people to think for themselves.

I often hear the vaccine has become a political issue. That is so sad. I don't quite agree entirely but yes, there are many that make their decisions based on our political hacks, be them elected or on MSNBC, FoxNews, CNN etc.

What gave you the impression I 'declare I have a closed mind, my positions are totally dependent on politics. ' . I am baffled. Call me wrong. Call me an idiot. You can call me a lot. LOL But I greatly value my independent thought. Sean Hannity makes me just as nauseous as Rachel Maddow.

My opinions are founded on principles. I have a strong bias towards freedom and with that, personal responsibility. Only recently has a "freedom thumper" become a dirty phrase. I could go on about my perspective, but pretty sure no one gives a shit. But suffice to say, you could not be more wrong in your assessment.

If you value your independent thought, why aren't you using it? Our entire discussion started with my response about some anti-vax propaganda. You've repeatedly defended that propaganda and the anonymous people who are responsible for it. Merely 5 seconds of independent thought will clearly show it for what it is. If you want a more detailed approach, read ptrbrgr's post on the CCCA video. He covers the same points I covered, in greater detail and with a high level of knowledge.

This gave me the impression you have a closed mind and base your decisions on politics:

Perhaps you need to research what a "right" is. The left seems to have a real challenge with that.

When people phrase things as left, right, liberal or conservative, they're making a political declaration. If one side "has a real challenge" with something, it's black or white thinking. Add in that 90% of Democrats turn your stomach and the summation is a closed mind guided by politics.

What is a right? Time for another quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Recognize that? All men? Unalienable rights? Liberty? Are you wondering "what about all those slaves?" Right in the US Declaration of Independence.

"Rights" are subject to change. 200 years ago, most people didn't have the right to vote. Until 100 years ago women didn't have the right to own property. It wasn't too long ago when a woman didn't have the right to choose a husband.

Let's apply the concept of rights to your open mind. Every year rights get changed. Some go away, some new ones take their place.

What is your argument against healthcare as a right? Do you believe that wealth is the determining factor on who receives medical care?

[Dcrist0527]

First, allow me to say kudos on a well thought out response. I would agree with most of your points and disagree with a few.

the video also contains falsehoods and at least one blatant monster lie, which is that the trial deviated from the 'plan' as they put it. Every clinical trial has a protocol. This is the gospel. Every T is crossed, every I is dotted. For those with a masochistic bent, you can find the protocol for this trial in the supplementary material of the NEJM paper, all 376 pages thereof. Every protocol has a detailed plan for interim analyses, and has exactly defined rules for stopping early. This can happen for example if you find early on that the vaccine is highly effective, or if there are adverse outcomes and safety issues. This trial was stopped early, exactly following the protocol, because it hit all primary efficacy endpoints and safety checks. This was reported in all media outlets at the time. The CCCA knows this. When they say the trialists deviated from the protocol, they are blatantly lying to you. There is no other way of putting it. And when you stop early, the trial is over, you unblind, and offer the vaccine to all participants, also according to protocol. If you have a highly effective vaccine, it would be unethical to do otherwise

I could not disagree more. As I said earlier in the thread, this was arguably the most important human trials of our lifetime. You contradict yourself when you say everything went as planned. And then detail how they moved the mark. It's like a 100-question exam. If you answer the first 10 questions correctly, you can stop there and claim a perfect score? I concede there is an ethical argument that can be made. (I don't necessarily agree with it on balance.) But to pull the plug 2 months in because you like the early results? That's borderline unethical. We lost any ability to track longevity. And lo and behold, one of the biggest problems we have today is the vaccine waning. Let's not mention long term side effects. But this is where it gets ugly and sinister. We allowed Pfizer to grade their own test. Granted, that's normal. But the FDA and CDC were waiting with their rubber stamp. The reality: they got a 100% on those first 10 questions but boy, they sure didn't earn a perfect score.

Onwards to the RRR versus ARR mambo jambo (if numbers aren't your thing, you might want to skip this section). Dcrist0527 pointed out in his post there is indeed an important difference. A clinical trial is always comparative, treatment versus placebo arm. Therefore you always report the outcome as a relative measure such as efficacy. There is nothing special about COVID trials. It's always been that way, always will be that way. That was the 95% cited in the NEJM paper. Now if you are a policy maker, and you want to know for example something about the basic reproduction number R0, you want to know something about absolute risks and reduction of those through interventions. But this is pretty complicated stuff and hard to estimate, because things constantly change.

I'm ashamed to admit to being a numbers nerd. LOL. Again, I don't disagree with much of what was said. Both RRR and ARR are valid metrics. And you were very effective in summarizing their worth. But what I strongly object to is selling RRR as efficacy. Or even the false definition spread about efficacy. Use your example. If that old lady got a flier saying you are 95% more likely to stay free of covid if you take this shot, would she? Because that's what happened to the masses. And that is not at all accurate. So I suppose my beef is more with the marketing vs the actual math. Here again, I blame CDC and FDA as much as I blame Pfizer. And I blame our policy makers even more. They put the politics over science anf clarity.

I'll agree to disagree with you on these points. But I appreciate the dialogue.

[JjBee62]

It's equivalent to over for some. It's based on a different thinking. It is possible if this continues for another 10 years. Many more will just move on to live normally.

Why a bar is packed with people without masks? I see plenty of them. I know some just decided they want to live normally and not live in fear. That is why you see some people change their tune in this thread, although they gave a different reason.

For me freedom is a collective right. In that, I mean I have no problem going into a packed bar right now or every night, but I won't go back to my family before I quarantine myself for 2 weeks. LOL. I will do the quarantine for my family in this case because they don't think like me.

For anyone traveling internationally, the pandemic isn't over, no matter what they think. If you're required to have a negative test to enter a country, telling the airline that your positive test doesn't matter because the pandemic is over for you, won't get you on the plane. Taking off your mask on the plane will still have you in legal trouble, if you refuse to put it back on.

Not just bars, but entire stadiums are packed with maskless people. I don't know any people who have been living in fear. Mostly they are people who recognize the risks and base their actions on whether or not the risk is worth it.

Freedom is a collective, or community right. If the exercise of your freedom has a negative impact on others, then you're not exercising freedom, you're imposing tyranny.

I am also willing to take risks for myself, but I try not to put others at risk.

[JjBee62]

Thank you for this. I found the video, and managed to watch almost ten minutes of it before I threw in the towel. Oh dear. Well, to those who got so upset about the video: as they told Cheese Wagstaff in the Wire after the dog fight: "I think you have been played". I'll see if I can find a bit of time later today to type up a brief summary.

I enjoyed your summary. Although you went into more detail, I've been over all of those points several times. It's an exercise in futility. Either people see the easily verified truth immediately, or they will defend the easily debunked lie until the day they die.

[JjBee62]

One thing about JBee. Agree with him or not at least he researches his comments using reputable sources and doesn't just get his BS off of some conspiracy theory website or podcast.

BTW I think I recognize you two guys. Didn't they make a movie about you, starring Jeff Daniels and Jim Carey?

Shhh. Don't tell them my secrets.

[JjBee62]

+1. And everybody sees it but him and his senile sidekick paulie.

Another excellent example of not knowing what you're talking about.

Paulie and I had a big public, knock down fight right here over 3 years ago. It might have been the reason this thread was started. We haven't really talked since then. We're not sidekicks, friends or buddies.

Here's something you might understand when you reach emotional maturity. I agree or disagree with what is posted. It doesn't matter who posted it. Bullshit (for example, declaring the pandemic is over) is bullshit, regardless of the source. Good advice is good advice regardless of the source.

As for the rest of what you agreed with, I suggest you go read the other threads. There have been a few people over the years who might have agreed with me at one time or another.

[RamDavidson84]

Everyone has "common sense" after the fact which is the classic Monday morning quarterbacking angle. But the very nature of science is to amend conclusions and policy as more information becomes available. Homemade cloth masks were useful, depending on weaves, layers, and thread counts. Not all are created equally, and they were only promoted for a time due to the shortage of N95 and surgical masks. The former are the best, the latter still rather effective depending on the grade.

Be careful when you start accusing someone like Elvira of common sense, as there's surely more to the story, while you are swallowing some barstool analysis full of omissions. See above. Wink.

P.S. The same kicked, cried, and screamed because he was denied access to a supermarket in Mexico for not having a mask. He has also posted YouTubes of 4th rate shock jocks who discouraged mask wearing, while he predicted that less than 80 k Americans would die of Covid. So if you are looking to suck up you need to keep looking.

With hundreds of thousands of cases of Omicron daily, should we still have to take a covid test to re-enter the country? Hmmmmm.

Vaccines were supposed to be 95% effective. More people die in 2021 than 2020 when there were no vaccines available. Why are Vaccines mandates and Boosters are still being discussed? Why is no one talking about the false effectiveness of the vaccines? Hmmmmmmmmm.

How does China, a nation of 1.3 billion people, not have more cases of Omicron? Hmmmmm.

The answers to these questions seem like common sense to me, but half the country will cry murder if I were to state my opinion publicly. Hmmmmmm. Freedom of speech? Hmmmmm. LOL let the name calling and slandering begin! Jaja.

[Elvis 2008]

Next came the ballyhoo about the evidence of harm.

Given what's at stake, of course lots of people looked at the 20 deaths in the vaccine group from every possible angle. The final FDA report concluded not a single death was due to the vaccine.

All the BS aside, at the end of the day, you are left to trust the FDA. Fauci said 70% and we get to herd immunity, and we are there now. Was there a decrease in deaths due to Covid in 2021? Nope, so vaccine rates went through the roof and Covid deaths went higher. Fauci said that you were 11 X more likely to die from Covid if you are unvaccinated. Well then how come deaths from Covid went up and not down with 70% of the population being vaccinated?

Did the study predict the increased death rate? Yes or no? And if it did then you have to look at how the FDA determined that these deaths were not related to the vaccine, but you did not touch on that at all. When the government was shut down, half the FDA was still open because that is what % of the FDA is supported by big pharma. The government shut off funds to the FDA and they were still going.

And do you know when FDA / Pfizer / Moderna wanted to release safety data on the vaccine? 75 years from now. A judge rejected that and told them 8 months:https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/j...-cuts-8-months.

That is not exactly confidence inspiring is it?

The #1 killer in America is heart disease, and it is known the vaccine harms the heart. So if someone dies of a heart attack after getting the vaccine, how do you say the heart attack was or was not related to the vaccine? I do not even know how you would do it. Do you?

What I could certainly say is this person had atherosclerosis and say "Eh, that had nothing to do with the vaccine. He was a goner anyway" and blow it off.

That is not science. Science is showing us the method you used for blowing it off and seeing if it is valid.

This is part of what informed consent is about. Do you think most people who get the vaccine are told "the death rate was higher with those who got vaccinated but the FDA said it was no big deal" or are led to believe the vaccine is a life saver?

I keep reading about how these vaccines saved millions of lives. My question is where are they?

You can argue about whether the vaccine does increase deaths or say it may increase deaths. My question to you is where does anyone get off mandating or advocating for a therapy that may increase death rates?

[Elvis 2008]

Common sense goes like a long way and you have it down. I plan on doing the same and will keep an N95 with me in case I get in a crowd but will avoid them. No Metro this visit and will miss going to Arvi on the cable. Yes, exposure time is critical and ignored. Remember when you couldn't touch anything or needed to have everything sanitized because the virus would live for days and your hands would pick it up? The masks were BS because only the n95 is any good or the Korean or European counterparts but low supply and had to go to hospitals etc. So they have everyone wearing worthless paper or cloth but that was great for cheap mask makers. Anyway, stay healthy with your common sense approach that works.

CL, what is frustrating to me is that it is the number of droplets that cause disease, and the government has just emphasized the mask when that is a small part of the whole picture. Yeah, N95 probably works better than cloth. I think both are helpful though. Thing is that it is just not masks but length of time with someone and talking to them and also the force of the particles expired so more with singing, laughing, coughing, or the force of someone's voice. The goal is to limit the exposure of those particles.

And handwashing was a complete joke. Social distancing was pretty arbitrary as well.

The NFL did some great Covid studies. It was thought that you had to be present with someone for 10 minutes indoors to catch Covid from them. The NFL found that if people were talking to each other and not wearing masks, there could be transmission of the virus in as little as 5 minutes.

But like I said, you can throw that all out the window now. You have teams that are 98% vaxxed and half the team has Covid. I do not know what the time frame is with catching Covid now. It seems like it may be down to a minute or two and now the people do not look sick. Outside of doing what Paulie does and living in a bunker, I do not know how someone does not catch omicron.

[Elvis 2008]

How does Elvira do it? Well he lies a lot which is very easy to do on the internet. But yea it's ironic those complaining about CNN and MSNBC while immersing their brains in Tucker and Hannity, textbook pot calling the kettle black. Such is barely a step up from Alex Jones.

Nice insult but you did not answer the question. What have you been doing the last 2 years since the pandemic began? All I hear from you is your criticizing anyone else while talking nothing about yourself. Mr. E has been travelling so has JJBee, JustTK, Nounce but you have been mum. I repeat, what have YOU been doing?

[Paulie97]

Common sense goes like a long way and you have it down. I plan on doing the same and will keep an N95 with me in case I get in a crowd but will avoid them. No Metro this visit and will miss going to Arvi on the cable. Yes, exposure time is critical and ignored. Remember when you couldn't touch anything or needed to have everything sanitized because the virus would live for days and your hands would pick it up? The masks were BS because only the n95 is any good or the Korean or European counterparts but low supply and had to go to hospitals etc. So they have everyone wearing worthless paper or cloth but that was great for cheap mask makers. Anyway, stay healthy with your common sense approach that works.

Everyone has "common sense" after the fact which is the classic Monday morning quarterbacking angle. But the very nature of science is to amend conclusions and policy as more information becomes available. Homemade cloth masks were useful, depending on weaves, layers, and thread counts. Not all are created equally, and they were only promoted for a time due to the shortage of N95 and surgical masks. The former are the best, the latter still rather effective depending on the grade.

Be careful when you start accusing someone like Elvira of common sense, as there's surely more to the story, while you are swallowing some barstool analysis full of omissions. See above. Wink.

P.S. The same kicked, cried, and screamed because he was denied access to a supermarket in Mexico for not having a mask. He has also posted YouTubes of 4th rate shock jocks who discouraged mask wearing, while he predicted that less than 80 k Americans would die of Covid. So if you are looking to suck up you need to keep looking.

[Mr Enternational]

You nor anyone else has a right to spread disease. Nor was any such notion ever envisioned in the Constitution, thus you are just chasing your tail in a hooker forum.

Forced quarantines of TB patients have been rightly upheld by the SCOTUS. Non compliant selfish morons are being removed from our armed forces, and that's a very good thing.

Are you stupid or are you just dumb? Forced quarantine of actual TB PATIENTS you compare to forced discaharge of people with nothing wrong with them, people with no disease to spread. But I guess we are going by they MIGHT get a disease to spread around. So if calculations are correct, now that the noncompliant selfish morons are gone we should see nobody in the military come up with the disease to spread around. If there was a Nobel prize for stupid you would be a repeat winner. But since there is not you will just have to keep settling for being a loser.

[ChuchoLoco]

I avoided sick people and when talking to someone with Covid kept the conversations short. With all the talk of social distancing, hand washing, and lockdowns, what was missed was how the virus is actually spread. It was prolonged exposure to someone with Covid with alpha. With delta, the exposure was even shorter.

As of today, though, you can throw that out the window because of how contagious omicron is. I do not think I have had omicron but even if I get it, it is no big deal. With omicron, I would rather have the disease than the vaccine.

Common sense goes like a long way and you have it down. I plan on doing the same and will keep an N95 with me in case I get in a crowd but will avoid them. No Metro this visit and will miss going to Arvi on the cable. Yes, exposure time is critical and ignored. Remember when you couldn't touch anything or needed to have everything sanitized because the virus would live for days and your hands would pick it up? The masks were BS because only the n95 is any good or the Korean or European counterparts but low supply and had to go to hospitals etc. So they have everyone wearing worthless paper or cloth but that was great for cheap mask makers. Anyway, stay healthy with your common sense approach that works.