Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[PedroMorales]

My regular, who is the Ukrainian I know best, argued with me when I said last year

Show levels of understanding, intelligence and reflection far higher than that of XPartan and the other Stupid Shit trolls. It is a pity their debar us getting insights.

Your girl friends are fully right from their points of view and from the view of very many others.

[Kozerog]

I would love to know when exactly did "Ukraine decide to take on a bully".

2013-2014. EU will eventually be same thing as NATO. If corruption was the issue, why elect Yanukovych in the first place? Why wait until 2013 and the rejection of the EU agreement to revolt? Why not revolt in 2011 or 2012? Why change language laws the very first day the new government was in office, instead of first focusing on corruption and changing language laws later? Why re-arm, which forces Russia to invade soon or face a more difficult invasion later?

Lots of countries live next door to dangerous bullies. Mexico lost half its territory to the USA in 1848, then was forced to sell another slice to accommodate the railroad, then had to put up with USA meddling during the Mexican revolution. Mexicans had the sense to recognize that USA would simply seize their entire country if they resisted, so they didn't resist.

[Xpartan]

The reason I posted the link was as a contrast to those who focus exclusively on one individual, Trump or Biden or whoever, as being the primary or proximate cause of the current situation. Whether you agree with Ferguson isn't important. The point is to engage in a discussion that casts a net wide enough to hopefully capture all (or most) of the possibilities and probabilities.

There are "experts" with opinions (and that's all they are) all over the place. The ones I ignore are those who are overly dogmatic, think they've got it all figured out, and fail to acknowledge how much is uncertain and how much they don't know. IMO, experts, real or self-styled, will be debating and analyzing these issues for years.

I agree that neither Biden nor Trump are the primary sources of this. The primary and the only source of this situation is Putin.

Everyone has over played there hands on this one and media is making everything even worse. Ukraine decided to take on a bully and is getting absolutely destroyed as result. Any deal is good deal at this point, nobody is coming to help them and if thought that was going to happen, maybe one of the biggest miscalculation of all time.

I do feel sorry for the people that could not leave, but I have very sympathy for Ukraine government, they are completely delusional, but this should not be surprise.

I would love to know when exactly did "Ukraine decide to take on a bully".

When they decided to join the EU?

When they kicked out their monstrously corrupt president?

When they "dared" to express their displeasure with Russia annexing two of their regions?

Do you have any other events in mind?

What do you believe the Ukraine government should've done and when?

[Xpartan]

Do you have any evidence he had any arsenal?

Please read my previous post if you're interested.

[Xpartan]

You seemed to be describing the Putin end game that he has achieved or will achieve. The problem is at what cost for Russia. As long as Putin rules Russia, I don't see the West reestablishing normal ties with Russia. Do the Russian people want to go back to isolation and a stagnant economic outlook?

From what I'm seeing this guy is simply parroting Russia's official line, and I really don't understand if he's just a fool or if there are more sinister motives. The truth is that Putin's goal is not to ensure Ukraine's NATO neutrality. Maybe, one day, many many moons ago it was about NATO neutrality, but right now his goal is to destroy Ukraine as an independent state and subjugate its people. Simply put, Ukrainians are fighting for their survival, and there're only three choices: Fight, run, or die. Putin made it easy for them.

As to your last questions, there is a very effective informational blockade in Russia. The independent media have been pushed off line and off air. The official media don't show any horrors that the army is inflicting on Ukrainian population. All major VPN providers are blocked. There is a new law that provides for up to 15 years in prison for just calling Putin's so called "special operation" a war. And, quite frankly, a lot of Russians have been zombified in the last 10 years by the relentless propaganda machine.

[PhotoSlider]

Most of the girls I saw before meeting this regular were from similar poor backgrounds, and similarly apathetic about politics, national identity, language. All they cared about was a better life: more money, easier working conditions.

Kozerog, as you know by now, I have utmost respect for your analytical ability.

I am far from the thought that you consider those girls you met, representative of the true spirit of the whole society. Especially the spirit of those fighting today.

[Kozerog]

Hard disagree. Keep in mind that, Russian speaking enclaves aside, the only thing Ukrainians agree on is that they don't want to be under the control of Moscow again, whatever that costs them.

Freedom and repression are relative terms, yes, but to suggest that Russians are worse off than, say, Belarusians, because the Belarusians are once removed from Putin's control because Lukashenko is some sort of moderating force is both absurd and patently uninformed.

My regular, who is the Ukrainian I know best, argued with me when I said last year that Ukraine was better than Belarus because it is a democracy. She and her family are from a small town south of Kyiv and they have typical peasant mentality: there will always be crooks in charge; democracy is a farce; best thing you can do in life is adapt to the system; what matters is the final result, not the process. According to her, people like her and her family would be better off economically in Belarus and that's all she cares about.

She also said she didn't care if Donbas went back to Russia: "What's it to me? My family doesn't live there. " If fact, I don't think she or anyone in her family would much care if the whole country went back to Russia. She grew up speaking Ukrainian, then learned Russian after she moved to Kyiv because people in Kyiv laughed at Ukrainian speech then (before 2014). No emotional ties to language, or to national identity, or to political system, or to native village. Only thing she cares strongly about is economic well-being of herself and her family (parents, grandparents, sisters, cousins, etc).

Most of the girls I saw before meeting this regular were from similar poor backgrounds, and similarly apathetic about politics, national identity, language. All they cared about was a better life: more money, easier working conditions.

[Jmsuttr]

The single most important thing we can do is precisely to analyze, etc. Ukraine got into this mess because it didn't think. To get out of the mess, it has to start thinking or get help thinking, especially from those of us comfortably sitting outside Ukraine and thus able to keep our minds from getting carried away by emotions.

First, I think most Ukrainians, in or out of the country, would say that the single most important thing is for those in Ukraine not to die. Survival being one of those fundamental Maslow's Hierarchy kinds of things, not much else is going to capture their attention.

So far, my attempts to talk sense to Ukrainians have resulted mostly in furious accusations that I'm a Russian troll, followed by banning me from forums.

Wow, I'm shocked (sarc)! Did you really expect any other reaction? There's such a thing as timing, and the time to instruct a mother on how her child should have safely crossed the street is not when the kid is in the ICU after being hit by a car.

Any Ukrainians you personally know will likely take the view that you're not there, and can't know what they're going through, and should therefore STFU. And, since the vast majority of forums (that I've seen) are pro-Ukraine, it's not surprising to see the same reaction.

Wringing one's hands about the suffering of the unfortunates is women's work. Men can either fight or think. I don't pretend to be much of a fighter myself. However, I respect those who can and do fight, and I expect them in turn to respect me for my contribution, which is to think.

From what I've seen, BOTH Ukrainian men and women are fighting AND mourning, as those two activities are not mutually exclusive. As far as respect is concerned, it has to be earned. Right now they're busy trying to save their country, so it's not surprising if they don't have time or patience for comments from the peanut gallery. And, as far as your contribution is concerned, that leads to my next point.

Prior to the invasion, I was thinking and advocating that Ukraine simply capitulate to all of Putin's demands and I still think that's the best way forwards,

One big problem with your comment is that it's nothing Ukrainians haven't heard, and rejected, from a host of different sources. Are you really surprised at not getting a positive reaction? I'm certainly not. Another problem is assuming Putin's list of demands is static, rather than dynamic. Ukrainians would prefer not to find out.

I'm just doing here in this thread what comes naturally to me. Much easier to speak my mind and be condemned for it than be silent.

And I think that's perfectly fine, which is why I'm doing the same thing. But right now, in all the Ukrainian and pro-Ukrainian forums, I'm doing nothing but expressing support. They're understandably in a siege mentality, and perceive anyone who isn't for them as being against them. Whether they're right or wrong is immaterial, that's simply their current (and understandable) mindset.

[Edward5]

Kyiv UkraineAs shells have begun exploding in the heart of Kyiv, museums have rushed to protect their most prized, valuable pieces: the original artwork of once-in-a-generation talent Hunter Biden.

Funny post. From what I can determine is that there were vast oil and gas reserves in Eastern Ukraine, the 2nd largest in Europe. The only problem is that the separatists and Russia were in that area.

I believe that Hunter Biden was on the board to deal with these issues and to get NATO in Ukraine to basically kick out the Russians and get to this oil and gas.

I really believe that this conflict on interest, having Biden Son paid for influence, made Biden not act independently and what was best for USA and the World. Instead, Biden acted on the money he was getting through his son. He then did what he was paid to do, say NO to Russia and get NATO into the country.

Putin would not have this and this is the cause of the problems.

[DramaFree11]

The single most important thing we can do is precisely to analyze, etc. Ukraine got into this mess because it didn't think. To get out of the mess, it has to start thinking or get help thinking, especially from those of us comfortably sitting outside Ukraine and thus able to keep our minds from getting carried away by emotions.

So far, my attempts to talk sense to Ukrainians have resulted mostly in furious accusations that I'm a Russian troll, followed by banning me from forums. If everyone talking sense is accused of being a troll (and that's what I'm seeing), then Ukraine is truly in bad shape and will likely be dealt with like a stupid, strong and rebellious bull: beaten senseless, a ring put through the nose, maybe castrated to permanently calm it down.

Wringing one's hands about the suffering of the unfortunates is women's work. Men can either fight or think. I don't pretend to be much of a fighter myself. However, I respect those who can and do fight, and I expect them in turn to respect me for my contribution, which is to think. Prior to the invasion, I was thinking and advocating that Ukraine simply capitulate to all of Putin's demands and I still think that's the best way forwards, unless someone can convince me that a coup is going to happen very soon, and that suffering now will be compensated for by a safer and more prosperous future after Putin is gone. I'm ready to believe a coup MIGHT happen, but I have my doubts about it happening soon or that those who take over after Putin will be significantly nicer than him.

Everyone has over played there hands on this one and media is making everything even worse. Ukraine decided to take on a bully and is getting absolutely destroyed as result. Any deal is good deal at this point, nobody is coming to help them and if thought that was going to happen, maybe one of the biggest miscalculation of all time.

I do feel sorry for the people that could not leave, but I have very sympathy for Ukraine government, they are completely delusional, but this should not be surprise.

[Jmsuttr]

I just saw that Bolton said. If Trump would have won his re election. He would have pulled the USA out of NATO.

And that is what Putin wanted. So, he could put the USSR back together. WOW.

First, he and the Trump administration did not part on good terms, as I recall, so there's the disgruntled ex-employee thing. Second, it's always bothered me that he tends to talk in hyperbolic terms, and seems to think that he's the smartest guy in the room and everyone else is an idiot.

For (at least) those two reasons, I'd take his comments with a huge shaker of salt. Also, as I checked today's news I briefly scanned an article about Bolton that characterized the statement about pulling the US out of NATO as something he (Bolton) thought or felt would happen. I didn't see a reference to any definitive statement to that effect. If I missed something, or if more clarifying info has surfaced, I'm certainly open to correction. But it also strikes me that something as momentous as renouncing our NATO treaty obligations is not something that any president could do unilaterally.

[Jmsuttr]

He's contradicting himself all the time. First he admits that Ukraine is a special project for Putin who's trying to restore the empire. Then in the same breath, he blames Biden for lifting objections to Nord 2 as if that emboldened Russia to invade. Makes no sense. That's not an analyses, that's a collection of soundbites.

The reason I posted the link was as a contrast to those who focus exclusively on one individual, Trump or Biden or whoever, as being the primary or proximate cause of the current situation. Whether you agree with Ferguson isn't important. The point is to engage in a discussion that casts a net wide enough to hopefully capture all (or most) of the possibilities and probabilities.

There are "experts" with opinions (and that's all they are) all over the place. The ones I ignore are those who are overly dogmatic, think they've got it all figured out, and fail to acknowledge how much is uncertain and how much they don't know. IMO, experts, real or self-styled, will be debating and analyzing these issues for years.

[Ozzie1451]

But what else can I do?

You can keep your mouth shut.

[PedroMorales]

The single most important thing we can do is precisely to analyze, etc.

True enough. But thought is beyond the feeble minds of XPartan and other Dixiuecrat yobs who spew their bile like the loud, ugly, ignorant Americans they are. "Analyze" away but know most Dixiecrats here are brain dead and many of them were involved in war crimes in Syria, EyeRak and Afghanistan.

I saw an ad that Ukrainian mail order brides are 50% off. Maybe they could get more XPartan gran papas to volunteer if they gave 99% off? Just a thought.

[Jojosun]

What news I watch has not had media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. I watch major news orginzations like Reuters and BBC and there is not media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. None. I do not know where others get their news. All people are saying is that Ukrainians are putting up a better fight than Russian thought they would but not under any delusion that they are are winning. The foreign fighters who go there are doing so on moral grounds and I hope they have some understanding that what they will need to do is guerrilla warfare because that is what needs to be happening right now. Ukrainians cannot hope to match the Russians on convententional terms. No one I read is saying they are winning.

I was ultralight infantry and we studied guerrilla warfare. Yes I should not be armchair quarterbacking because I am not ont he ground, but I heard that the Ukraine military called for their forces to go guerrilla warfare. I was light infantry for 6 years. We studied and practiced how to operate and move in small groups to be undetected and then link up and do larger operations. Although that depends on woods for cover too. They need to send them some on-off road scooters, or dual sport motorcycles (muffle the shit out of them) and have a guy on the back with a rocket launcher. And do fast attack and stick and run techiniques. Smaller quicker agile groups can do damage with those Javelins (shoulder operated missile) we are sending them and some RPGs. They could do link up operations where 30 or 40 of them meet up near the Russian formation on On-off road dual sport motorcycles and hit them hard and then escape cross country throught the trees. If I was 20 years younger I would conisder going there myself.

Interesting video, US Military Veteran on the war in Ukraine. https://video.foxnews.com/v/6299099588001/#sp=show-clips.

The decorated combat veteran says the USA Should stay out of the conflict in Ukraine, adding it will create a far more severe humanitarian.