Thread: Stupid Shit in Kyiv
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04-06-23 04:22 #1865
Posts: 1340A pathway to democracy: Banned: languages, opposition parties, opposition mass media, exit out of the country, church. All checked.
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04-05-23 22:39 #1864
Posts: 516Thoughts from a real General (ret) about the coming Ukrainian offensive
https://mickryan.substack.com/p/the-...ian-offensives
No armchair in sight. It's most definitely his own opinion, nothing more, but he has expertise and experience that regular schmucks (myself included) will never have. He's pro-Ukraine, but that doesn't invalidate the facts he presents and observations he makes. People are free to disagree or debate the issues, but they should do so on the basis of countervailing facts and competing arguments.
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04-05-23 22:27 #1863
Posts: 516Better Quote of the Day: Russian Imperialists, Go Fuck Yourselves!
Originally Posted by Questner [View Original Post]
Putin is essentially saying "I want to possess Ukraine. Let me have it or I will rattle my nuclear (WW-III, OMG!) saber". The problem with giving in to such blackmail is that the blackmailer has no incentive to stop. In fact, showing weakness actually incentivizes the blackmailer to keep going. So the next demand could be Poland, or Latvia, or another (fill in the blank) country.
No one in the West is playing the nuclear brinkmanship game. It's all coming from Little Vlad. Which means only he can unilaterally stop it. The West has a choice between displaying weakness or strength. From Putin's past behavior, we know he despises weakness and respects only strength. Not really a difficult call to make, IMO.
Also, the elephant in the room is Russia's newly acquired master, China. From the CCP's various statements, it's rather clear that any nuclear transgression would incur China's wrath. Russia would, at a minimum, likely forfeit China's support. The last thing China wants is nuclear instability and proliferation, as Japan and Korea would almost certainly move to develop their own nukes.
To use your own imagery, allowing Putin to dictate the terms of the nuclear debate would be like letting the inmates run the asylum. Putin could certainly benefit from some ("Here, Vlad, bite down on this") electro-shock therapy.
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04-05-23 21:39 #1862
Posts: 516The blame for the horrible disaster lies squarely on LilliPutin, no one else.
Originally Posted by Questner [View Original Post]
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04-05-23 21:32 #1861
Posts: 516Depends on your definition of provoke, doesn't it?
Originally Posted by Elvis2008 [View Original Post]
Russians have already conjured up enough "provocation" to justify their military aggressions against Georgia and Moldova. And anyone paying attention will have noticed they have ready-made "provocations" against Poland and the Baltics that can be taken off the shelf and used when needed.
Any clown can say that they "feel threatened," but the proof of whether a true threat exists depends on an assessment of objective facts.
Objective Fact #1: Ukraine has never posed a military threat to Russia. Had Ukraine ever attempted military action against Russia they would have received zero support from the West. They also would have been trounced by Russia since, as the current war demonstrates, it's much harder to attack than it is to defend.
Objective Fact #2: NATO posed zero offensive threat to Russia. Not only is NATO defensive in nature and by charter, but it would take unanimous consent of all 30 (now 31) members before an offensive action (against anyone) would be approved. Before the Feb 24th invasion, because several NATO members were friendly to Russia (Hungary, Germany, France, etc.), not only would Russia have had advance notice of any significant developments but any single one of those (formerly) friendly nations would have had veto power they could exercise.
Objective Fact #3: The myth of so-called promises re NATO expansion has been debunked by no less than Mikhail Gorbachev, himself. He stated in an interview that discussions on that topic centered on German reunification and the territory of former East Germany. And, not only was there no formal agreement on that subject, during Yeltsin's tenure Russia was even contemplating joining NATO. So the about-face and demonization of NATO is a feature of Putinism and his need to find excuses for his own aggression abroad and repression at home.
Oh yeah, and your entire post ignores the agency of Little Vlad, himself. Nobody forced him to order the invasion. Prior to Feb 24th he had all kinds of diplomatic and geopolitical cards he could have played, all from a position of strength. Now he's flushed every one of those options down the toilet and is no longer the master of his own (and Russia's) fate.
And you've also pointedly denied agency to the Ukrainian people, who simply want to keep their land, prevent their women from being raped and their children from being kidnapped, and to stay alive.
But sure, it's all the USA's fault, isn't it?
P.S. As to the future, unlike some I don't pretend to have a crystal ball. But I'd simply note how many "expert" predictions have already been proven wrong. And how many surprising turns of events (rapid NATO accession for Finland, EU decoupling from Russian energy supplies, etc.), have come to pass. So, if I had to place a bet, it'd be on a Ukrainian future as part of the EU (for sure) and NATO (likely). And I'd lay long odds on Russia becoming a vassal state of China, just a bit higher than North Korea in the pecking order.
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04-05-23 15:46 #1860
Posts: 690Take me to your leader
I'm Gort. I can destroy your planet.
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04-05-23 11:08 #1859
Posts: 361The Real Ostrich
Originally Posted by Questner [View Original Post]
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04-05-23 05:23 #1858
Posts: 1680Yep
Originally Posted by Jmsuttr [View Original Post]
But fuck, I covered all this a year ago and at least twenty times since then so I'm taking a very long vacation from the discussion. And fact is I'm a South America guy so likely will never make it to Kyiv, as far as the other thread goes. Though I'll never say never. Wink.
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04-05-23 03:47 #1857
Posts: 1680Facts
Originally Posted by Jmsuttr [View Original Post]
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04-05-23 03:47 #1856
Posts: 1340Quote of the day, 'To paraphrase former Secretary of Defense Bob Gates, any American president or politician who is willing to risk a high-end conventional land war with Russia should have his head examined, or at a minimum, deserves serious psychiatric care. The same must be said of anyone in Washington who wants to engage in nuclear brinksmanship with Moscow. '.
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04-05-23 03:40 #1855
Posts: 1340Originally Posted by ReinerOtto [View Original Post]
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04-05-23 00:04 #1854
Posts: 2041Originally Posted by Beijing4987 [View Original Post]
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04-05-23 00:02 #1853
Posts: 3371Originally Posted by Locamotive [View Original Post]
https://www.cc.com/video/y1wxc3/the-...sis-in-ukraine
https://rumble.com/v1m0df8-the-colbe...-02242014.html
The guest on the Colbert report, back when Steven Colbert was funny, even said we wanted to prevent Russia from attacking Ukraine. So fear of provoking a Russian invasion was present back in 2014 and the soothing words to keep back an invasion apparently were no longer spoken. Biden said to Putin he would not rule out Ukraine joining NATO, and Russia invaded shortly after that.
Matt Taibbi, one of the few journalists I trust, has said that there are now two parties in Washington. They are not Republican and Democrat but pro-war and anti-war. Trump and Bernie Sanders are anti-war and HRC and Biden are in the pro-war party. If you are in the antiwar party, you can expect what Trump got today and what Bernie Sanders got in the primaries.
The setup is the same. Build up a guy or guys to be the epitome of evil. And then give the military industrial complex trillions to knock him out of power and watch as things get even worse in said country. We have seen this movie before with Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi, and the Taliban. And anyone who objects to that money being spent on this nonsense abroad is told, "What is a matter with you, you love Hussein, Gaddafi, the Taliban, or Putin?
And you are right. The Ukrainian people will suffer the same fate as those in Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan while the military industrial complex lines its pockets. If you oppose them, well, you end up dead like JFK or charged like Trump. Biden was building up for war on literally the first day he was in office.
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04-04-23 23:59 #1852
Posts: 516The coup myth is dead and buried, except among the perpetually deluded.
Originally Posted by Beijing4987 [View Original Post]
https://bitterwinter.org/myth-of-the...kraine-2-2014/
Article highlights:
1. Little Victor already had a sketchy political history in Ukraine.
"Viktor Yanukovych, the politician whose presidential election was annulled by the Supreme Court for electoral fraud in 2004".
2. Little Victor won the 2010 election with less than 50% of the vote. And he ran on an electoral platform that was specifically in favor of integration with the EU.
"Yanukovych ran again for President in 2010, with a platform that included Ukraine's request to become part of the European Union. He won the election by obtaining in the second turn 48.95% of the vote against 45.47% of his opponent Julia Tymosenko".
3. After his election, not only did Little Victor arrest his political rival (Tymosenko) but he completely reneged on his commitment to EU integration.
"On November 21,2013, Yanukovych abruptly announced that he would not sign the Association Agreement with the European Union that had been agreed upon, and would rather enter into a treaty of economic cooperation with Russia. This was a complete about-face with respect to the program on which he had been elected".
4. Little Victor cemented his reputation as Putin's lackey when he adopted the Russian whitewashed view of the Stalin-orchestrated Holodomor famine.
"When Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper during his visit to Ukraine went to pay his respects to the victims of the Holodomor, many of whom were ancestors of Canadian Ukrainians, at the Kiev memorial of the genocide, Yanukovych declined to participate and told Harper there had been no genocide. As some scholars have noted, many non-Ukrainians failed to understand the enormity of Yanukovych's claim. It was as if a president of Israel would publicly deny the Holocaust".
5. If 1-4 (above) are thought of as the kindling, this next highlight is what actually lit the fire.
"What started in Maidan Square as a small and peaceful protest mostly by university students escalated to violence and to a revolution, which was called Euromaidan or the Revolution of Dignity. What changed the course of the events was the brutal repression of the students by police on November 29. Dozens of students were badly beaten. Many who went to Maidan Square after November 29 would probably not have protested for the European Union, but took to the streets to denounce police brutality, which they regarded as evidence of the authoritarian drift of the Yanukovych government".
One final point made in the article is that the estimates of protesters in Kyiv range from 400,000 to 800,000. So, in order to believe in the "CIA" myth, you have to deny each of those protesters their individual agency. Each one of those people made an individual decision to actively join the protests. If you think the CIA can mind-control hundreds of thousands of people, then I have a bridge across the Kerch Strait to sell you.
Or, one can take the "Occam's Razor" approach and consider the plain facts of the matter. Little Victor did not have a large base of support and, after reneging on a key campaign promise and adopting a Holodomor-denial position, flushed the remainder of his support down the toilet. Then, thinking he could stay in power using brutal and repressive tactics, he lit the match that sent him crashing, burning, and fleeing to Russia.
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04-04-23 22:23 #1851
Posts: 690Scream
Henry the K and Tricky Dick's "Make the Economy Scream" (in Chile). Would not have worked for Putler in "influencing" Ukraine. CIA sponsored coup ousting Victor Y ?
Possible. So what now, 400 pound incels living in mom's basement? Does Finland in NATO raise your hackles? Putler could care less, he says. Too bad Fat Nixon is being neutered. Could have ended the Special Military Operation in a day.