General Info

[Henio]

Since the FKK and Sauna clubs are all open, I am a bit worried about running into friends/business associates.

I am going to a large trade show, and a lot of my fellow businesses will be in the same town at the same time.

Any advice?

uhhh, wear a mask?
Dude, if you meet your friends in there, they will be there for the same reasons as you

[Peter Shaww]

Since the FKK and Sauna clubs are all open, I am a bit worried about running into friends/business associates.

I am going to a large trade show, and a lot of my fellow businesses will be in the same town at the same time.

Any advice?

[Vito Corleone]

I hope this is the correct section to post my question. I think it doesn't need a proper thread.

I like even black girls, round lips and asses strong like stones borned to be doggied.

I was curious to understand which is, for yourself, the best fkk or sauna club for reach pretty and hot black girls.

Thanks to all the contributions

I can only mention, for my experience, Crystal from Palace (2007) and Destiny from Oase (2008). Only black girls I tried by myself fkk experience.

On my last 3 trips to Germany this year, Oase seemed to have between 2-4 black chicks from Africa or Dominican Rep. Black women are not really my type, but I did a pretty fine Ethiopian last fall @ Living Room. Last month, I had a great time with a black/Cuban chick named Marina @ Palace. Tight bod, nice ass with a fake rack. Off the hook service! She was working during the day shift.

[Peter Shaww]

Thanks Peter and Jackyo!

I totally agree with your points regarding the clubs.

From the posts, looks like the top clubs are near Frankfurt, I am actually spending more time in the Dusseldorf/Koln area. Which fkk/sauna clubs will you recommend there? (I really hope to know your personal picks!)

[Peter]

hindenburg is now a normal restaurant. Tehy gave up the higher class thing after about 2 months.

They did pick the prettiest girls form happy and wildenrath to work there, and the higher price customers also are the type who will book a girl for 3000€ for a week vacation in Ibiza or soemting like that.

The management of Villa Vertigo still knows these types of guys, and soe fo the girls that work there can make some extra money that way.

There used ot also be a couple of guys who would have their own sex parties, and look for a coupe of girls to work these sort of parties, usually about 500-700€ for the night.

Wildenrath sort of kept the top floor for these sort of parties.....but these parties are more rare nowadays.

There is a decent FKK in Hamburg, called FKK125, and I think it is on the Sasseler Chaussee 125. It is small with only about 8-10 girls working, but the pricing is similar to FKK's in the rhineland and I have had very good service there. They also make a really good Strammer Max, whcih is 2 fried eggs on a piece of ham on a piece of toast.....it tastes really really good.

And Johnny,

I gues bosses who want to epand thier business in germany should send their employee to an FKK on the first trip, that will make them give their all to make more business happen.

I know I take internatinal business partners there, making them want to do more business here, offering better prices for the chance to fuck more girls.....

[Jackyo]

Hi there, I am new to the German scene and I am looking for more upscale clubs that offer full service. I have a few questions, I hope you can help.

Q1: What is the difference between Nachtclubs, FKK Clubs and Sauns Clubs?

Q2: I was told the the Relax Nachtclub in Hamburg is the type of club I am looking for, but from the website, it doesn't seem to offer the services like the FKK clubs? What exactly is a Nachtclub?

Q3: If FKK clubs is what I should be looking for, can you recommend any upscale clubs in Frankfurt, Dusseldorf and Koln?

Q4: Apart from the above, I also saw Sauna Clubs on Google. What are Sauna Clubs???

Q5: I also read about facilities like Pascha in Koln, what is this?

Thank you in advance for your help! Look forward to hear from you.

Peter

... are answered in the FAQ I wrote up a month or so ago.

Here is the link:

http://www.InternationalSexGuide.nl/forum/showthread.php?p=769453

I will not answer the questions answered in the FAQ but will answer questions which aren't answered by it.

A Nachtclub is a night club. Beware. This means that the women who work there do so on commission. If they can get you to order the 300 Euro bottle of champagne, they get a piece of that. They are also known as Animierungsmaedchen. They are usually available for extracurricular activities but beware. It is going to cost you.

What is this about wanting an upscale experience? What do you mean by that exactly? Do you think that if you spend more money you get better service? How about just visiting a wallet extraction service or taking your dollar bills and burning them at a fireplace?

There was a club near the Dutch border, the Hindenburg, which supposedly meant to deliver an upscale experience. Everything cost more. There was to be good food and drink, the women were to be elegantly dressed. What was it exactly? A place for folks with money to burn or with an expense account.

I was having a discussion with Peter years ago when this concept was first introduced. The women received more money but could they be more nude, blow harder, screw more enthusiastically than they do for the standard rate of 50 Euros per session? Probably not.

I don't believe the club exists any more.

To find out about Relax, do a search for it using the search button. Hamburg is not a hot spot for FKK club activity. It lives off its reputation as a destination for sex (much like Amsterdam) but it mostly preys off tourists so the women have no incentive to provide good service.

Best FKK clubs to visit? Look over the club threads and make a list of the ones with the most posts. This would give you a list of the largest clubs with the most ISG visitors. They are, frankly, not clubs I visit but if you are new or speak no German you should stay on the beaten path anyway.

This is Londonbasketcase's list, z. B.

http://www.InternationalSexGuide.nl/forum/showthread.php?p=787245

You seem to imply you want to only visit clubs which are more upscale than the ones we normally visit so I'm not sure these will meet your requirements. Again its use of the word "upscale" which has me wondering what you are looking for.

Pascha is a brothel similar the set up in the Frankfurt RLD or what they call a Laufhaus.

[Peter Shaww]

Hi there, I am new to the German scene and I am looking for more upscale clubs that offer full service. I have a few questions, I hope you can help.

Q1: What is the difference between Nachtclubs, FKK Clubs and Sauns Clubs?

Q2: I was told the the Relax Nachtclub in Hamburg is the type of club I am looking for, but from the website, it doesn't seem to offer the services like the FKK clubs? What exactly is a Nachtclub?

Q3: If FKK clubs is what I should be looking for, can you recommend any upscale clubs in Frankfurt, Dusseldorf and Koln?

Q4: Apart from the above, I also saw Sauna Clubs on Google. What are Sauna Clubs???

Q5: I also read about facilities like Pascha in Koln, what is this?

Thank you in advance for your help! Look forward to hear from you.

Peter

[Johnny Z]

Thanks for the additional comments, Peter. I didn't mean to imply I wanted "inside info" that you shouldn't relate pubically. I am just curious about the whole system. Obviously you know quite a bit, I would infer you've worked with or in some clubs.

Also don't misunderstand my followup. I'm not worried, much less paranoid, about the FKKS, to the contrary I think this system is about is good as we could hope for. A couple of my lady friends were dubious about how independently the ladies can work, but you summed it up nicely. There can be shenanigans in any kind of system. As I said in my previous post, I'm 100% sure the ladies I know well here in the US are in charge of their own affairs, and it is clear that in Germany you can work on your own terms in all types of business models.

Oh, would I love to bring a lady friend or two with me to Germany! Yes, I think I know a couple of them who would do quite well, they might find it could be a profitable trip, not just a free (albeit working) vacation.

Jackyo, thanks for the outline of the PT structure. That sounds less lucrative, but I guess taking in 600 Euros a day (for the clubs) adds up even after expenses, and 200 Euros per lady who on average are satisfying 2 men sounds reasonable.

God, I am wishing on all my lucky stars that this business to Germany which might happen in October actually comes to pass. I can hardly wait to go back.

[Peter]

Johnny Z,

I sort of misunderstood. I thought you were discussing your german exploits with non working girls.

If they re american and decent looking, they should try a 2 week stint in a top FKK, and see for themselves.

I do know quite a bit about the background working of a lot of clubs, but I am not going to divulge much of it here.

There are some clubs which are directly owned ow managed by organized crime groups like the Hells Angels, btu according to a lot of customers these are some of the best run clubs around. I have my own feelings on this, but that might just be due to personal experiences with such groups outside of this business.

I also knwo some small family type clubs which turn out to be virtual fronts for 1 or 2 pimps to offer only thier ladies.

The simple fact is that the system of the FKK pretty much makes pimps unnecessar, adn girls who choose to have them, are pretty much at fault themseleves. If you see girls with a name tattooed prominently on themselves, you can assume the name is not of thier dead brother, but ore tan likely her pimp. Whether he is exploiting her, or whether she is expressing her deep love for him is something a psychologist should be figuring out. I know a tonne of girls who work 100% for themselves. I know girls who work to support a husband and kids. I know girls who work to support thier boyfriend, adn I know girls who compete to be the best hooker for a guy who claims to have 15 girlfriends.....So it is not systematic, and people choose what they choose.

I know girls who have come from poland or blugaria or romania or brazil, and 99% of them knew exactly what the hiring agent was looking for when he was searching for "hostesses for a bar" and none that have their passports taken away.

That is more the sort of thing that happens in appartments where 3 or 4 girls work.

Whether the clubs are keeping completely accurate books and paying taxes on every cent of their recepts is a bit of a question, and probably isn't hapening, as it is a cash business. But the only club closed due to the tax issues is Atlantis....I know a couple fo others that have had multiple tax enquiries and some club anagers who have significant tax liabilities out of this.

I know a lot about clubs, and I am generally a person who doesn't do horrndously immoral things, and I feel cofortable going to clubs.

If you are paranoid, then don't go.

There used to be a guy here and I met hi and is wife at a swinger club once, and his wife used to like to go to work at FKK's on her vacation. She was a woman in her 40's from a major EU country and had a good job. She liked working there. And she worked in a club that happens to be owned by the Hells Angels.

[Jackyo]

In a Pauschalclub or Partytreff, the girls are obviously "on staff" in some way. Anyone know how they get paid. Per performance, per night, or some combination. And in general how much they might make?

Peter knows the FKK club financial picture from behind the scenes better than I do.

I've asked several times how the PT women and clubs make their money and from my understanding there is some kind of revenue sharing arrangement going on.

You pay typically 100 Euros to get in. There usually are (as least back in 2005 when I first visited PTs) six to eight women there.

My understanding is that for each guest that comes, they get something like 10 Euros per head. The rate probably varies with the type of event going on that day and the entrance fee pricing.

So if the club takes in 100 Euros and there are say seven women there, then the club has 30 Euros per guest to pay its overhead, food, drink and staff after paying the women.

If the club has 50 guests during the whole day, each chick takes home 500 Euros and the club has 1,500 Euros to pay its bills.

The women primary job to keep the guests satisfied. The well run PTs have a rule that if there is even one complaint the chick is tossed out on her ear.

This creates a team athmosphere between the women where they keep tabs on who among them isn't doing her share. At a PT like Dorsten the women double team you. They almost never take on men individually. She usually has a partner trying to facilitate the session. Its also a form of security for them should the dude turn out to be unruly. The quicker you come, the quicker they can take a break.

There are ways to offset this behavior by the way. I've spent many long hours just poking away with women I've connected well with a these clubs. I complain openly to them that I am not a cow who is there to be milked (they will milk you exactly as they would a cow if you let them - I have no doubt at all that some of them actually have milked cows, goats or sheep).

This brings to mind a sign which hangs in the bedroom near the front staircase at PT Mettmann which advertises milking equipment for a Molkerei. I laughed hard the first time I saw it.

The clubs have found a way to have the women classified as independent contractors otherwise it creates all sorts of issues for them. They are not employees. This legal distinction is important.

At the PTs with closed doors such as PT Traumland there appears to be an incentive system at work. Each time you go to a room with a chick she collects a token (or jeton) and they count them at the end of the day. I've not figured out how they fees are shared at a club such as this yet. I asked Anja the last time I was there what it was about but she wouldn't explain.

[Johnny Z]

Hi Peter, thanks for the comments. That was a nice description of the basics. I was certain this has been discussed before, but I wasn't sure how to search to get to the core of it. And the situation can evolve, so it can be good to re-visit it.

Regarding my lady friends, here in the US we have to be very careful so you tend to have to learn a fair amount about someone before you see her. Also, in a small city like mine it tends to be a small world, so many of the ladies become personal aquaintances, although (for me) no emotional relationships. Sometimes it happens I wish there was no relationship, but most of the older (30+) ladies are actually very interesting people and pretty nice. I actually don't feel like I'm exploiting them, all the ladies I know at all well are without question running their own show.

What you say makes sense in terms of what I know about the laws in Germany. And it passes the economics test, in a smaller club with lower overhead, if 50 guys came through on a busy day that could be 2500 Euros, add 500-1000 from the ladies and that sounds like a good moneymaker.

I know some of my friends would still be suspicious about how strictly on the up-and-up the clubs operate, and what percent of the ladies are exploited by the pimping and trafficking hangers-on. Be interested to see if anyone has any comments about that, or has concrete information on how the ladies are treated in any particular club.

[Peter]

Johnny Z.....You tell your lady friends about your escapades! Sweet! I am good friends with soe women who know of my obby, but I thought I was a bit alone in this. They are fascinated by the whole thng and bemoan that the same doesn't exist for women.

Well, I think I have written about ti before, but I will ut it up again about the womens finances (I don't knwo much about the party-treff area, so I will remain silent on it).

The legal situation of the FKK demands that the clubs not be involved in the financial situation that goes on between the men and women. As in England and Canada (but with a different legal system) prostitution is legal, but pimping, promoting or living off the avails of prostitution is illegal. That mean that clubs cannot be seen as earning money form prostitution or furthering prostitution. What they are is clubs where women and men pay an entrance fee,a dn what happens between the women and them men is only the business of the women and the men involved and the club has no role whatsoever in what is going on.

In clubs like Oase, World and GT the entrance fee for women is generally similar to the one for men. It is a daily fee and it usually is in the 50-75€ a day range, and that is the income that the club makes. These rates vary a bit, when clubs need more women they lower the rates, wehn they think business is going well, they raise the rates a bit, but generally they are in this range. At Oase an World there are discounts that the girl get for dancing in the striptease rotation, and extra charges if they sleep at the club, but these are usually in the range of 15€.

After this fee ALL the money that the girls get from the men for their services is theirs. The club gets NOTHING out of it! This is very important for the legal definition of most of these clubs.

Does this work out for the clubs? Well, take GT, where about 200 men a day pay 50€ each and about 60 girls a day pay 65€......that is about 10,000€ a day from the men and 3900€ a day from the girls.

Assume the 15 people or so who work their in the service area all get about 150€ a day in cash for working there, that is about 2250€. Tht leaves about 11,000€ a day and at 363 days a year that is somewhere in the 4 million € a year range. Assume they paid about 1.5 million for the property and rebuild,a nd you see that it can pay off.

Of course this math is with one fo the most successful clubs, and I know a lot of clubs that are nto cash machines like that, but still, the math can work out, without getting a cent from the women.

In a club like GT a girl who has been working there for a while (when they are brand new some earn a lot more than normal, because they are new and people try someting new) can expect about 6-8 rooms a day, and if you take an average of around 60€ per room, a normal girl at a club like that can realistically be earning 250-300€ a day after her entrance fees. If she is there on a multi-day stint, then her cost of travelling their is minimal.

Officially it is expected that she tax this moey on a normal tax return, but very few women do. Some have someone else (usually an immigrant) use their legal papers to do some sort of low paying job at a supermarket or such which is what they turn in as their tax returns. The immigrant keeps the after tax wage, and the working girl has tax identity and sometimes health care adn such. Not all girls do this, and the whole tax and health care situation is somethign that a lot of girls tend to neglect, and can sometimes get them in trouble. gain, nothign the lub really wants to get involved in.

Since a lot fo recent raids have cared more about whether the clubs an girls are paying adequate tax, there are a lot of clubs who have started charging a "tax withholding" fee of 20€ a day, which is given anonymously to the finance department in lieu of individual taxes. I am nto sure of the whole legality of this, but as I have hear the same numbers from a number of clubs, it seems to be something that the finance authorities seem to accept.

In Germany it is legal to file a tax return with the job description of hooker. Not many girls do this though. Soem get n trouble if they get too talky with the cops on a raid and claim they earn 4 times as much as the cop (I know of a girl who did this and ended up with a court case and a tax bill around 150,000€ in back taxes due to her mouthing off and making claims of high income for the past 5 years.

I know some girls who have made decent money (around 80k€ a year) doing this job and have been able to put some money to the side. I know a lot who have been in the game for a long time and hve virtually nothing to show for it. This has to do with personal decisions they have made, more than something systemic.

Pimping can be a probem. there are some clubs (some of the major ones) where I think this pimping is systemic. Where I get the feeling fo truckloads of girls coing from the same city, and where guys with TCOB and teardrop tattoos run around and keep a decent track of which girls seem to be top earners and mgith approach them about working as management. I tend to feel ucomfortable at these clubs an generally avoid any girl where I get the feeling she isn't wholely working on her own account. But it is pretty tough to figure this out.

The fact is that girls are free to choose where they want to work, the girls talk to each other and find out where the best places for them to work are, given their individual circustances. Soem like to work close to home, some far from hoe, some like to get regulars, others tink they can make more money with a more or less travelling show.

It is not necessarily a job I would want my daughter to choose as a career, but I can understand wh many choose it.

Don't feel bad about what you do. Treat the women well, pay them fairly and if you are in a situation where you think something is fishy, don't continue frequenting that establishment. You are not contributing to all the evils that some associate with prostitution, unless you are actively demanding more subservient women, an ever changing lineup, or ever younger girls or soemthing like that.

I have been in the game for about 10 years now, and I know a lot of working girls well, and I have visited some in the hospital when they have been recovering frm cancer (unrelated to the job) and have visited some privatel at home or went to dinner with some (again, just as friends). I know some of the men who run clubs, or used to run clubs,a nd I know some men who pimp girls. So my info is rather reliable.

That being said, some clubs have no or low entrance fees for the ladies and do take part of the cut, usually these are the nightclub sort fo place and not the FKK's, but places like Babylon, Atrium, Dolce Vita and others also have a system like this. But gain the girls chooe where they work, and usually based on what they think they can earn. I know a girl who was making upwards fo 600€ a day take home in Babylon, even if she was only keeping 40€ of the 65€ for each half hour.

[Johnny Z]

Since I returned from my "Virgin FKK Tour" last month it has been the prime topic of conversation with a number of my lady friends and fellow hobbyists. I live in the US, so only one of my friends even knows about the FKKs (he's a former serviceman, natch). One question which has been asked, and about which I'm curious myself, concerns the ladies' finances. My experience was of course completely from the customer's side, but I'm hoping some of you (Jackyo comes to mind) who like to know the inside story might have some insight.

In a Pauschalclub or Partytreff, the girls are obviously "on staff" in some way. Anyone know how they get paid. Per performance, per night, or some combination. And in general how much they might make?

Concerning the FKK clubs, I was even more curious. We pay the girls per session, and to the customer it appears they keep what they get. At some clubs I went to, like Oase, the receptionist was very, very insistent (without me even bringing it up) that the club had NOTHING to do with what the girls do. It almost seemed they protested too much. Does this vary between clubs, or is there some sort of standard "cut" the club gets from the women for use of the facilities? And would this be per session or per night?

I know that in US strip clubs the girls earn almost nothing until they meet some minimum, and after some point each lap dance and so on is mostly profit. A couple of my lady friends here were completely certain that the FKK establishment must take a large chunk of the ladies' earnings. Of course, they'd never been to Germany and didn't even know what a FKK club was. But they do know that "business is business".

If anyone knows how it works in general, or even just knows the specifics for a particular club, I'd be very interested. I look forward to reading the responses.

[Italia77]

I hope this is the correct section to post my question. I think it doesn't need a proper thread.

I like even black girls, round lips and asses strong like stones borned to be doggied.

I was curious to understand which is, for yourself, the best fkk or sauna club for reach pretty and hot black girls.

Thanks to all the contributions

I can only mention, for my experience, Crystal from Palace (2007) and Destiny from Oase (2008). Only black girls I tried by myself fkk experience.

[Sky Ryder]

Oase accepts credit cards as well, with a 10% surcharge. You can even use them to pay the girls at Oase, with another 10% per usage.