Kansai: Kobe-Osaka-Nara-Kyoto

[Traveler X]

good points from both posters here. it's definitely true that collectively, we are not the best for business compared to japanese customers. on the other hand in japan every customer is valuable, and some foreigners make great customers while others do spoil it for the rest.

for every foreigner that generally won't break the rules, there's going to be a disproportionate number of us who will try to break the rules every single time. an alarming number of us even admit to it in the various threads, and i'm not trying to judge anybody but only to point out that these stereotypes are not simply spurious assumptions without experience by shopowners. it doesn't make what they do right, i'm saying it's usually not as simple as somebody being malicious.

what's malicious is a few people thinking the rules don't matter and it's okay to harass every girl every time. morally speaking that's even more reprehensible, trying to f**k someone who's trying to give you only a hj/bj and hoping they'll let you. i understand that's what you want, but you don't have a moral leg to stand on here. for all the legit girls saying no, this is the number on thing most of them hate. but i don't blame you - this is probably just a habit of people from countries where handjobs/blowjobs are illegal and and you naturally assume every woman is there to break the law and the rules are just a wink wink facade. no.

i can't speak for your specific experiences, but pulling the customer into a side room is standard in some shops. your case may well be different, but japanese customers don't like to see other japanese customers either. me neither.

in all my times speaking with shopowners, the ability to understand rules and obey them are the dominant issues. most shops i go to post warnings about not [CodeWord125] the workers because you'll go to jail and guess what, they're written only in japanese. they reserve the right to refuse someone who is too drunk and will throw them out to that end, but take a foreigner instead. i'm pretty sure they have nothing personal against alcoholism either.

while racism is a real problem, it works both ways and is more about expediency than anything else. to illustrate, in most non-mongering establishments they actually give extra service to foreigners. it's also racist, in our favor. i'll use a business example where they will quickly show a foreign businessman a price sheet but will not for a japanese businessman until he can prove he's prepared to buy. in another industry, they give guided tours of a pearl farm and if you're a foreigner (korean, australian, singaporean, etc..) they will let you haggle, but they will not let you haggle if you are japanese. i have a lot more examples as a consumer but you get the idea. there are cases of racism both ways (unlike most countries where they are simply racist against me), and in most cases in japan this is also not out of malice, simply a matter of putting business above racial morals. can't say that about my home country, and while i love it it's ironically where most of the people crying racism come from.

my whole point is not to take it personally, even if it's against moral principles. morals which ironically the majority of us fail to adhere to ourselves in terms of following shop rules or dealing with women.

i know if i ran an adult business where rules mattered, i wouldn't want a good number of foreigner customers either. but i'd take them because most are good customers and the problems can be solved simply by making sure they understand the rules. if someone simply refuses to obey rules and harasses my employees for sex without fail, i'll simply phonemail cctv footage of him to other stores rather than ban all foreigners. same as vegas - get kicked out of one casino, get kicked out of all. that's what japan should do.

i think you're missing one simple fact. like it or not, foreigners are bad for business. you can't fight this. it's part of the japanese dna and there is nothing that is going to change this. if you can't accept this simple fact then you're not understanding where i am coming from. homer

[Homer69]

The two places where it happened aren't there anymore. One was in Namba and the other was in Nishi-Kawaguchi north of Tokyo. This happened three and five years ago, respectively. As you might know, NK has been basically shutdown. The place in Namba has been converted into a Chinese esute.

Out of interest, which Healths whisked you off to the side room (if you don't mind sharing that is). I've called a lot up that said, on the day, if you come and there's a girl that doesn't mind foreigners, you'll be serviced, but haven't been as of yet. I'll dig the e-mail out for that one to let people know also.

[Jaycam]

Yoko is back in the biz, I guess money is tight. I emailed he CL add and it was her. All I can vouch for is she really is Japanese and her ad is not spam. Cheers

http://osaka.craigslist.jp/ers/1411694222.html

P.S. Post some pics if you see her

[Naniwan]

Out of interest, which Healths whisked you off to the side room (if you don't mind sharing that is). I've called a lot up that said, on the day, if you come and there's a girl that doesn't mind foreigners, you'll be serviced, but haven't been as of yet. I'll dig the e-mail out for that one to let people know also.

I think you're missing one simple fact. Like it or not, foreigners are bad for business. You can't fight this. It's part of the Japanese DNA and there is nothing that is going to change this. If you can't accept this simple fact then you're not understanding where I am coming from.

I'm not bending over backwards or taking shit from any tencho by pretending to be mistaken and bowing out for another time. I am just extending professional courtesy to make his or her job easier. A bunch of Japanese, regardless of how polite and dismissive they are will be made extremely uncomfortable to be in the presence of a foreigner. We're all there for the same reason. Everything is about saving face and this sort of thing is appreciated and avoids any chance of the tencho losing face with his customers.

I've been at healths before where I was quickly whisked into a side room. I didn't know what was going on at first but it became clear they wanted my business but didn't want me looking at the book in the lobby area. When I explained I understood what was going on they apologized profusely and were glad that I understood.

I don't see this sort of compensatory behavior as being anything but courteous and making the best of a less than optimal situation. If you've ever been to high end soaps they do this, even with Japanese customers. They'll hold you in your room for a few minutes until the halls and lobby clears so no customer ever needs to see another customer.

Regarding complaining about bad service, there is a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way is to be direct about it. The right way is to be vague and allow for saving face. That's just my opinion. I never complain about bad service, I just don't go back.

homer

[Homer69]

I think you're missing one simple fact. Like it or not, foreigners are bad for business. You can't fight this. It's part of the Japanese DNA and there is nothing that is going to change this. If you can't accept this simple fact then you're not understanding where I am coming from.

I'm not bending over backwards or taking shit from any tencho by pretending to be mistaken and bowing out for another time. I am just extending professional courtesy to make his or her job easier. A bunch of Japanese, regardless of how polite and dismissive they are will be made extremely uncomfortable to be in the presence of a foreigner. We're all there for the same reason. Everything is about saving face and this sort of thing is appreciated and avoids any chance of the tencho losing face with his customers.

I've been at healths before where I was quickly whisked into a side room. I didn't know what was going on at first but it became clear they wanted my business but didn't want me looking at the book in the lobby area. When I explained I understood what was going on they apologized profusely and were glad that I understood.

I don't see this sort of compensatory behavior as being anything but courteous and making the best of a less than optimal situation. If you've ever been to high end soaps they do this, even with Japanese customers. They'll hold you in your room for a few minutes until the halls and lobby clears so no customer ever needs to see another customer.

Regarding complaining about bad service, there is a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way is to be direct about it. The right way is to be vague and allow for saving face. That's just my opinion. I never complain about bad service, I just don't go back.

homer

I'm not sure how much I agree with You or Azure on this issue.

Don't get me wrong though, we all know why tenchos won't accept us foreigners at times. I'm not arguing that point. But it seems to me as though you guys are forgetting we're customers. We shouldn't have to bend over backwards to get serviced.

A small disclaimer before I continue my argument. I have things a bit easier than most western customers, I'm a halfie (not Japanese half though) and as such I blend in well enough that a tencho will never hide me. I'm still recognized as a foreigner, but as long as no one stares too long at me, they probably won't realize I'm a foreigner. That works well since most people avoid eye contact anyways. So considering this, I may have an easier time dealing with this industry than other foreigners.

Don't get me wrong. I'm always polite, and in general I try to be the best sort of customer. I do ask for FS from every girl I meet, meaning I break the rules constantly, but that point aside I do my best to cause as little trouble as possible. I never argue with anyone, and I understand no means no.

I think generally we're all on the same page. Show proper respect, and you're as good as gold. The issue I have with your opinions is that it seems many on these forums are advocating that we just take whatever crap they give us. I say if there is something worth complaining about, then say something. Don't let it lead to an argument though, that's just lose-lose.

Generally speaking, I find it stupid to complain over bad service. That's more the fault of the girl and the shop can't do anything about that really. But if you feel like you're getting shafted, say something. Just keep your cool when you do it. Raise the issue with an employee and maybe the issue will be resolved, if not don't head back there again. Though, again letting it lead to an argument is never helpful and detrimental to us gaijin as a whole. I'm NOT saying we should act like jerks. I'm just saying that there is no reason to get shafted.

Though as others have said, being polite goes a long way. Once you've established that you're a great customer, employees will be the ones bending over backwards to get things done for you. I know several shops that let me go with girls whether or not they will service foreigners. There's also a specific shop that I feel recruits the best girls. However, the tencho there seems to be a bit on the racist side, so rather than dealing with him, I go to a sister shop whose tencho knows me well. I usually have him set things up for me.

[Zcorps]

AK,

I have the same views as you. The racism is part of it but for the most part, I have some long-standing relationships with a few shops and the fact I can get serviced and other gaijin cannot is because of this and much of it has to do with the courtesies I extend. They know I'm discreet and I won't show up when there are many Japanese waiting around, for instance. This is professional courtesy that doesn't need to be said. I've poked my head in, saw the crowd, switched to English and just said, "Excuse me, I'm looking for shiatsu" or something like that and quickly left. Tencho really appreciate this sort of thing, especially if they know you. I don't scare off his core customer base and I simply return when I can be shuffled back very quickly.

homer

I'm not sure how much I agree with You or Azure on this issue.

Don't get me wrong though, we all know why tenchos won't accept us foreigners at times. I'm not arguing that point. But it seems to me as though you guys are forgetting we're customers. We shouldn't have to bend over backwards to get serviced.

A small disclaimer before I continue my argument. I have things a bit easier than most western customers, I'm a halfie (not Japanese half though) and as such I blend in well enough that a tencho will never hide me. I'm still recognized as a foreigner, but as long as no one stares too long at me, they probably won't realize I'm a foreigner. That works well since most people avoid eye contact anyways. So considering this, I may have an easier time dealing with this industry than other foreigners.

Don't get me wrong. I'm always polite, and in general I try to be the best sort of customer. I do ask for FS from every girl I meet, meaning I break the rules constantly, but that point aside I do my best to cause as little trouble as possible. I never argue with anyone, and I understand no means no.

I think generally we're all on the same page. Show proper respect, and you're as good as gold. The issue I have with your opinions is that it seems many on these forums are advocating that we just take whatever crap they give us. I say if there is something worth complaining about, then say something. Don't let it lead to an argument though, that's just lose-lose.

Generally speaking, I find it stupid to complain over bad service. That's more the fault of the girl and the shop can't do anything about that really. But if you feel like you're getting shafted, say something. Just keep your cool when you do it. Raise the issue with an employee and maybe the issue will be resolved, if not don't head back there again. Though, again letting it lead to an argument is never helpful and detrimental to us gaijin as a whole. I'm NOT saying we should act like jerks. I'm just saying that there is no reason to get shafted.

Though as others have said, being polite goes a long way. Once you've established that you're a great customer, employees will be the ones bending over backwards to get things done for you. I know several shops that let me go with girls whether or not they will service foreigners. There's also a specific shop that I feel recruits the best girls. However, the tencho there seems to be a bit on the racist side, so rather than dealing with him, I go to a sister shop whose tencho knows me well. I usually have him set things up for me.

[Homer69]

AK,

I have the same views as you. The racism is part of it but for the most part, I have some long-standing relationships with a few shops and the fact I can get serviced and other gaijin cannot is because of this and much of it has to do with the courtesies I extend. They know I'm discreet and I won't show up when there are many Japanese waiting around, for instance. This is professional courtesy that doesn't need to be said. I've poked my head in, saw the crowd, switched to English and just said, "Excuse me, I'm looking for shiatsu" or something like that and quickly left. Tencho really appreciate this sort of thing, especially if they know you. I don't scare off his core customer base and I simply return when I can be shuffled back very quickly.

homer

I’ve met with WG who tell me they prefer foreigners. We actually treat them like human beings and also make an effort for them to enjoy the time as well, as opposed to Japanese guys who just blow in, do the deed, and blow out. So, YMMV.

Regarding the “racism”, from what I can tell its not even really a personal thing. As most of you know, the industry is fairly out in the open here despite it technically being illegal. They have a fragile relationship with the police/lawmakers in that if they don’t bring attention to themselves, the authorities will just look the other way.

The problem with us foreigners is that we draw attention automatically. Can’t be helped, the population here is 99% Japanese. Maybe one or two would be OK, but if a bunch of foreigners started to frequent a shop, this would be very attention-bringing, and the authorities would have to act. Your 20,000 yen isn’t worth the risk of getting the business closed down.

Then of course there’s the language barrier. They don’t expect you to understand how the system works, and they don’t think they can explain it to (even if you show some level of Japanese understanding). Many girls also feel uncomfortable trying to work with a guy they can’t communicate with. And if there’s a problem they’ll be no way to resolve it. And this is an absolute worst-case scenario, but if there’s some sort of big incident and it makes international news…do you think Japan’s overseas friends would also be willing to look the other way?

As I understand it, these are the primary reasons why foreigners are usually turned away. After that, then factor in your racism - we’re too big for the girls, we play too rough, we’re riddled with STD’s, take your pick.

This doesn’t mean its hopeless for us. Its still a business, they still want your money. You just have to show them that taking your money is safe and won’t lead to the aforementioned problems. Japanese ability helps a LOT, but sometimes isn’t even necessary - I saw a guy once navigate Tobita with a 60% or so call rate, without speaking a word. Through his actions and mannerisms, he let everyone there know he was a pro - he knew what was up, and they didn’t have to worry about him messing up the system.

I think a certain amount of humility and niceness is necessary. No matter how much Japanese you know or how well you know the system, there are tencho and girls who are convinced that you’re bad for the system, and nothing you can do will change their mind. Other places may be unsure, but willing to take a risk perhaps is business is slow enough at that point. Accept the system for what it is and learn how to use it in your favor. Take rejections in stride, and if you are accepted somewhere, always show the tencho and the girls the proper amount of respect. Even if you felt the service was horrible, smile, thank them, and then complain about it here on the ISG. Complaining there won’t help your case. Maybe some random Japanese guy can roll in and be drunk and belligerent and they simply have to smile and take it - but we don’t have that luxury.

You should strive to be the best customer that shop has ever had - both in the eyes of the tencho and the girl. With system we’ll never get the same opportunities or availability that the Japanese guys do, but it would help to expand our options a bit. Even if you don’t give a rats ass about your fellow mongers (you should), it works for you too - at one of my favorite places, I’m getting a sweet deal on double the time for half the price - simply because I frequented it and was always very nice to the tencho and the girl. Even before that they always gave me freebies.

Not just for P4P but in general as well. This isn’t the 80’s anymore, where just being foreign was like having a golden ticket.

If you don’t want to or can’t do this, then you are probably trying to monger in the wrong country.

[Azure Knight]

I’ve met with WG who tell me they prefer foreigners. We actually treat them like human beings and also make an effort for them to enjoy the time as well, as opposed to Japanese guys who just blow in, do the deed, and blow out. So, YMMV.

Regarding the “racism”, from what I can tell its not even really a personal thing. As most of you know, the industry is fairly out in the open here despite it technically being illegal. They have a fragile relationship with the police/lawmakers in that if they don’t bring attention to themselves, the authorities will just look the other way.

The problem with us foreigners is that we draw attention automatically. Can’t be helped, the population here is 99% Japanese. Maybe one or two would be OK, but if a bunch of foreigners started to frequent a shop, this would be very attention-bringing, and the authorities would have to act. Your 20,000 yen isn’t worth the risk of getting the business closed down.

Then of course there’s the language barrier. They don’t expect you to understand how the system works, and they don’t think they can explain it to (even if you show some level of Japanese understanding). Many girls also feel uncomfortable trying to work with a guy they can’t communicate with. And if there’s a problem they’ll be no way to resolve it. And this is an absolute worst-case scenario, but if there’s some sort of big incident and it makes international news…do you think Japan’s overseas friends would also be willing to look the other way?

As I understand it, these are the primary reasons why foreigners are usually turned away. After that, then factor in your racism - we’re too big for the girls, we play too rough, we’re riddled with STD’s, take your pick.

This doesn’t mean its hopeless for us. Its still a business, they still want your money. You just have to show them that taking your money is safe and won’t lead to the aforementioned problems. Japanese ability helps a LOT, but sometimes isn’t even necessary - I saw a guy once navigate Tobita with a 60% or so call rate, without speaking a word. Through his actions and mannerisms, he let everyone there know he was a pro - he knew what was up, and they didn’t have to worry about him messing up the system.

I think a certain amount of humility and niceness is necessary. No matter how much Japanese you know or how well you know the system, there are tencho and girls who are convinced that you’re bad for the system, and nothing you can do will change their mind. Other places may be unsure, but willing to take a risk perhaps is business is slow enough at that point. Accept the system for what it is and learn how to use it in your favor. Take rejections in stride, and if you are accepted somewhere, always show the tencho and the girls the proper amount of respect. Even if you felt the service was horrible, smile, thank them, and then complain about it here on the ISG. Complaining there won’t help your case. Maybe some random Japanese guy can roll in and be drunk and belligerent and they simply have to smile and take it - but we don’t have that luxury.

You should strive to be the best customer that shop has ever had - both in the eyes of the tencho and the girl. With system we’ll never get the same opportunities or availability that the Japanese guys do, but it would help to expand our options a bit. Even if you don’t give a rats ass about your fellow mongers (you should), it works for you too - at one of my favorite places, I’m getting a sweet deal on double the time for half the price - simply because I frequented it and was always very nice to the tencho and the girl. Even before that they always gave me freebies.

Not just for P4P but in general as well. This isn’t the 80’s anymore, where just being foreign was like having a golden ticket.

If you don’t want to or can’t do this, then you are probably trying to monger in the wrong country.

[Traveler X]

The racism is usually base on ignorance, but occasionally a bad experience as well (foreign guy demanding FS would be that). Some shops have a no gaijin policy, but if you can speak enough Japanese you may get the girl to your door, and most likely she will do you anyway since she wants to get paid.

I can attest there are a few formerly gaijin friendly venues that decided to start refusing gaijin after several of them broke the rules. Big rules, not little ones. Taking pictures of strippers, trying FS when it's BJ only, assault, etc..

In any case, most of the time it's a matter of Japanese ability. When I couldn't speak Japanese, I was rejected from 90% of shops. Speaking perfect Japanese (grammatically, but with an accent) I've never been rejected. There are some places that will ask me to pay 10% more, most notably soaplands. I never go into them, so it doesn't matter.

I'm Asian, so it has nothing to do with white/asian either. BTW, this is so true: http://karatethejapaneseway.com/phot...sma_man_01.jpg

[Lion]

, I specifically chose one myself meaning I didn't come across a review here. To protect the identity of the people and the company involved, I will call them Club CV.

The purpose of this board is to provide info on getting sex in Japan. Although some report places without revealing the names, in those cases the poster generally provides pictures, and is willing to share the details of the place via PM.

There absolutely no reason to protect the company-they are in the businesses and it is legal. As for the girl who provided FS-that is your choice on whether to reveal her name or not. But remember, she does it to make money. By "protecting" her you are in fact denying her the chance to work.

Telling us the name of the company will help caucasians avoid wasting their time calling and help Asian mongers find it. You are not the only person of Asian decent on this board.

[Ozboy]

Goo Jun Pyo,

If you arent gonna tell us the name of the company, or post "pics" which you brag about, whats the point of posting this?

I mean you typed a ton, and reading it was nice and all but its completely useless.

Exactly. With a few unnecessary jabs thrown in for humor.

[Tokyo Nampa King]

Goo Jun Pyo,

If you arent gonna tell us the name of the company, or post "pics" which you brag about, whats the point of posting this?

I mean you typed a ton, and reading it was nice and all but its completely useless.

[Lion]

Sounds fun.

Not quite sure why a WG would care whether a guy (white black or whatever) thinks she's easy or not. Then refuse him as a customer based on that?

Could be just me mate but her reasoning sounds a bit dodgy. Its a business transaction, not a loving relationship. Sounds like garden variety racism to me. No big deal, though, I just prefer when folks are up front about it.

Why not post up the name of the place?

I suspect a lot of DH customers are "can't find a woman/my wife doesn't put out" types, and the DH girls are surprised foreign men are in that situation too.

The racism is usually base on ignorance, but occasionally a bad experience as well (foreign guy demanding FS would be that). Some shops have a no gaijin policy, but if you can speak enough Japanese you may get the girl to your door, and most likely she will do you anyway since she wants to get paid.

I agree that you should post the name-no need to "protect" them, since they won't serve non-Japanese speaking customers.

[Member #3439]

Not to be a negative nancy here but what shes telling me seems kinda believable. THe majority of my gaijin caucasian friends think that J-girls are easy and believe they can pick up anyone they choose. Whether 100% real or not, these types of stereotypes damage your chances.

It's the English teacher stereotype that ruins it. They think every white man must be an English teacher. The non-pro J-girls always ask me if I am one. Cautiously. When I tell them 'no' and my actual profession, they become more interested and break out of their shell. I'd say that if a man has a decent paying job, and a couple of spare nights to spend on the bar scene, it would be easy to make pretty J-friends with benefits in Osaka.

Thanks for the great detailed reports.

[Ozboy]

Sounds fun.

Not quite sure why a WG would care whether a guy (white black or whatever) thinks she's easy or not. Then refuse him as a customer based on that?

Could be just me mate but her reasoning sounds a bit dodgy. Its a business transaction, not a loving relationship. Sounds like garden variety racism to me. No big deal, though, I just prefer when folks are up front about it.

Why not post up the name of the place?