German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[UltraHappy]

Well for one thing: it's the only legally binding international instrument. But whatever, here's a link to a wiki site of all things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking.

For all intense and purposes THE relevant definition worldwide. If you think it 's irrelevant, go ahead. I'm not going to spend much more time "discussing" this.

Thank you for filling in the gaps. It looks like this definition is part of a UN Protocol (treaty) that has been in fact been ratified by 161 countries as you pointed out. It also looks like this UN Protocol obligates each ratifying party to implement national legislation in support of enforcing this protocol on a local level.

Still, a prosecutor in German will not look to this UN protocol when prosecuting an individual in Germany. They will look to the specific words of the national implementing legislation which will likely differ in many respects to the wording of this UN protocol. Indeed, looking to the law that HB posted, the contours and requirements of that law do in fact differ in quite substantial ways from this UN protocol. In any case, it doesn't make sense to look at the definition of [CodeWord908] in the UN protocol for determining what someone may be prosecuted in Germany for. Instead, you have to look at the actual German law. Unless you manage to show that the two texts are identical. So far, I am not convinced of that.

But I'm glad you followed up with these additional links. Very informative. Thank you for sharing your research with all of us.

[Hessen Bub]

Europeans sooooo full of shit. As if the German politicians don't go to FKK.

I don't agree with FD. The sentence ends with "for the purpose of exploitation". Which is not my purpose when driving her and maybe (maybe) getting some compensation.

HB.

[MrManGuy]

I used the official UN definition that 160 countries (including Germany) subscribe too. I'm afraid my German isn't good enough to grasp the detail that is clearly needed to understand these definitions.

If you look at the English definition (notice the many times they use "or"): "transporting or harbouring a person, that is in a vulnarable postition, for the purpose of exploitation" is traficking. This last word is only defined to include sexual exploitation, but not when your are deemed to exploit someone. Notice how "forced" is omitted when they discuss "sexual exploitation" compared to other forms of exploitation and how subsection be denotes how consent of the "victim" is irrelevant.

In other words if you receive payment from a girl for transporting her, and she can be described as being in a vulnarable position (ie poor) and working in the sex industry. The only debate in court would be whether the payment falls under the undefined term "exploitation". And honestly, if you are really meta about it, you can say anyone who has a business exploits the lack of skill that some people have (say a plumber).

Luckily most districts of attorney have better things to do than to go after cabdrivers, but this is the definition that also leads to the skewed numbers that are reported everywhere. If they would just stick to "force" being necessary for it being called trafficking (like in any other industry), things would be far more workable.

P.S. I know girls that would officially be called trafficked, and every time I see them they show me pictures of how the build of they're house is progressing and their latest car that the boyfriend drives in (pick up, drop off). Kids are planned for next year. These are of course just examples, but the way the authorities look at it: trafficking, and that makes the whole debate useless.

Europeans sooooo full of shit. As if the German politicians don't go to FKK.

[MrManGuy]

If that is the case, then wouldn't all the taxi drivers who drive the girls to the clubs be subject to prosecution for trafficking? The authorities could put a big dent in the business just by going after the taxi drivers.

It is about religion, not about logic. Religious conservative leaders don't like fucking.

Plus there is something not right about the girls to start with.

[Free Dude]

Well for one thing: it's the only legally binding international instrument. But whatever, here's a link to a wiki site of all things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking.

For all intense and purposes THE relevant definition worldwide. If you think it 's irrelevant, go ahead. I'm not going to spend much more time "discussing" this.

[UltraHappy]

I used the official UN definition that 160 countries (including Germany) subscribe too. I'm afraid my German isn't good enough to grasp the detail that is clearly needed to understand these definitions.

If you look at the English definition (notice the many times they use "or"): "transporting or harbouring a person, that is in a vulnarable postition, for the purpose of exploitation" is trafficking. This last word is only defined to include sexual exploitation, but not when your are deemed to exploit someone. Notice how "forced" is omitted when they discuss "sexual exploitation" compared to other forms of exploitation and how subsection be denotes how consent of the "victim" is irrelevant.

I don't know why you seem to be hung up on this UN definition of trafficking from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime for Southeast Asia and Pacific. Just because an office of the UN happens to adopt a particular definition under which to conduct its studies doesn't mean that this definition has any force of law in the UN member nations.

I also don't know where you are getting this 160 countries agreed-on-definition business from. If you are referring to the membership of the UN, it's now at 193 countries. And just because a UN office adopts a certain definition, that doesn't mean that all 193 UN member countries have adopted this definition in their local law. I don't see any indication that this definition forms part of a 160 country treaty. Certainly I'm no expert on the UN, but it's certainly not clear to me why this definition should be relevant to prosecutions in Germany under national or local German law. Maybe I am missing some details that you could fill in?

[Free Dude]

I used the official UN definition that 160 countries (including Germany) subscribe too. I'm afraid my German isn't good enough to grasp the detail that is clearly needed to understand these definitions.

If you look at the English definition (notice the many times they use "or"): "transporting or harbouring a person, that is in a vulnarable postition, for the purpose of exploitation" is traficking. This last word is only defined to include sexual exploitation, but not when your are deemed to exploit someone. Notice how "forced" is omitted when they discuss "sexual exploitation" compared to other forms of exploitation and how subsection be denotes how consent of the "victim" is irrelevant.

In other words if you receive payment from a girl for transporting her, and she can be described as being in a vulnarable position (ie poor) and working in the sex industry. The only debate in court would be whether the payment falls under the undefined term "exploitation". And honestly, if you are really meta about it, you can say anyone who has a business exploits the lack of skill that some people have (say a plumber).

Luckily most districts of attorney have better things to do than to go after cabdrivers, but this is the definition that also leads to the skewed numbers that are reported everywhere. If they would just stick to "force" being necessary for it being called trafficking (like in any other industry), things would be far more workable.

P.S. I know girls that would officially be called trafficked, and every time I see them they show me pictures of how the build of they're house is progressing and their latest car that the boyfriend drives in (pick up, drop off). Kids are planned for next year. These are of course just examples, but the way the authorities look at it: trafficking, and that makes the whole debate useless.

[Hessen Bub]

This is what I found on GERMAN law. As we are in the German section of the board this is what is valid for me (sorry, but it is in German):

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwangsprostitution#Menschenhandel. 2 C_. C2. A7. C2. A0180 b_StGB.

Definition

Als Menschenhandel bzw. Schwerer Menschenhandel (in über 99 % der bekannten Fälle handelt es sich faktisch um Frauenhandel) wird im Kontext des deutschen Strafrechts die sexuelle Ausbeutung einer Person unter 21 Jahren, einer Person durch Zwangsprostitution oder die sexuelle Ausbeutung (inkl. Anfertigung pornographischen Materials oder pornographischer Darbietungen) einer Person, die durch den Aufenthalt in einem für sie fremden Land hilflos ist, genannt.

Die Bundesregierung hat einen Gesetzentwurf in Arbeit, demzufolge Freier von Zwangsprostituierten mit Freiheitsentzug von bis zu zehn Jahren bestraft werden können.
International geschütztes Rechtsgut

In Erweiterung des allgemeinen Gültigkeitsbereiches des deutschen Strafgesetzbuches (StGB) werden gem. § 6 Nr. 4 StGB Menschenhandel und schwerer Menschenhandel auch dann verfolgt, wenn die Taten im Ausland begangen wurden.

(Dieser Bereich muss überarbeitet werden, da sich 2005 die Gesetzeslage geändert hat. Die neuen Regelungen zum Menschenhandel sind jetzt in §§ 232 ff StGB zu finden.)

Menschenhandel, § 180b StGB
Zwangslage, § 180b Abs. 1 Satz 1 StGB

Menschenhandel nach § 180b StGB liegt dann vor, wenn jemand zu seiner persönlichen Bereicherung auf eine Person in einer Zwangslage (z. B. Geldnot) dahingehend einwirkt, dass diese Person der Prostitution zum Vorteil des Schädigers nachgeht.

Der Täter wird in diesen Fällen mit Geldstrafe oder Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren bestraft.
Hilflosigkeit, § 180b Abs. 1 Satz 2 StGB

Ebenfalls als Menschenhandel nach § 180b StGB wird bestraft, wenn der Täter wissentlich zu seinem Vermögensvorteil auf eine Person, welche durch den Aufenthalt in einem fremden Land hilflos ist, einwirkt, sexuelle Handlungen an oder vor dritten Personen vorzunehmen oder von oder vor Dritten an sich vornehmen zu lassen. Dieser Paragraph umfasst nicht die Prostitution im klassischen Sinne (siehe unten), sondern beispielsweise die Darbietung oder Erstellung pornographischen Materials unter Ausnutzung des Opfers zum Vermögensvorteil des Täters.

Der Täter wird in diesen Fällen mit Geldstrafe oder Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren bestraft.
Prostitution einer hilflosen Person, § 180b Absatz 2 Nr. 1 StGB

Schärfer bestraft (Freiheitsstrafe von sechs Monaten bis zehn Jahren) wird, wer die mit dem Aufenthalt in einem fremden Land verbundene Hilflosigkeit einer Person ausnutzt, um diese zur Prostitution zu überreden (§ 180b). Ein eigener Vermögensvorteil ist nicht Tatbestandsmerkmal.
Prostitution von Jugendlichen, § 180b Abs. 2 Nr. 2, Absatz 3 StGB (Gültig bis 11. Februar 2005)

Ebenfalls mit Freiheitsstrafe von sechs Monaten bis zehn Jahren wird bestraft, wer eine Person unter 21 Jahren zur Prostitution überredet. Der Versuch ist gemäß Absatz 3 strafbar. Ein eigener Vermögensvorteil ist hier nicht Tatbestandsmerkmal.

Dieser Paragraph ist aufgehoben. Die Aufhebung des § 180b StGB erfolgte durch das 37. Strafrechtsänderungsgesetz vom 11. Februar 2005.
§ 180 Förderung sexueller Handlungen Minderjähriger

(1) Wer sexuellen Handlungen einer Person unter sechzehn Jahren an oder vor einem Dritten oder sexuellen Handlungen eines Dritten an einer Person unter sechzehn Jahren

1. durch seine Vermittlung oder
2. durch Gewähren oder Verschaffen von Gelegenheit

Vorschub leistet, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft. Satz 1 Nr. 2 ist nicht anzuwenden, wenn der zur Sorge für die Person Berechtigte handelt; dies gilt nicht, wenn der Sorgeberechtigte durch das Vorschubleisten seine Erziehungspflicht gröblich verletzt.

(2) Wer eine Person unter achtzehn Jahren bestimmt, sexuelle Handlungen gegen Entgelt an oder vor einem Dritten vorzunehmen oder von einem Dritten an sich vornehmen zu lassen, oder wer solchen Handlungen durch seine Vermittlung Vorschub leistet, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

(3) Wer eine Person unter achtzehn Jahren, die ihm zur Erziehung, zur Ausbildung oder zur Betreuung in der Lebensführung anvertraut oder im Rahmen eines Dienst- oder Arbeitsverhältnisses untergeordnet ist, unter Missbrauch einer mit dem Erziehungs-, Ausbildungs-, Betreuungs-, Dienst- oder Arbeitsverhältnis verbundenen Abhängigkeit bestimmt, sexuelle Handlungen an oder vor einem Dritten vorzunehmen oder von einem Dritten an sich vornehmen zu lassen, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

(4) In den Fällen der Absätze 2 und 3 ist der Versuch strafbar.

Also from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Legal_situation):

Pimping, (Zuhälterei = exploiting and/or controlling a sex worker) admitting prostitutes under the age of eighteen to a brothel, and influencing persons under the age of twenty-one to take up or continue work in prostitution, are illegal. It is also illegal to contract sex services from any person younger than 18. (Before 2008 this age limit was 16.) This law also applies to Germans traveling abroad, to combat child prostitution occurring in the context of sex tourism.

So taking a girl from club to club or from her home to a club and even taking money for gas from her is not illegal as far as I read the text. If you try to persuade a non-working girl under 21 that a job as a hooker would be great for her. That is illegal.

HB.

[Optimist]

Free Dude. Thank you for the excellent definitions of trafficking. I only wish politicians and law enforcement would stick to these definitions. If someone does a job because of poverty I don't think that makes them vulnerable within the terms of the definitions so like HB I don't get to the conclusion that it's trafficking to do a job because of poverty. Outside of the issue of trafficking you are correct in that this job is like any other. People do it for money and there are occupational (mainly health) hazards.

[Hessen Bub]

Just look up the official international definition that 160 countries have agreed on. I'm sure no one will actually take it to these extremes, but anyone arranging transport for a girl in this business and getting better because of it (the gum): a trafficker.

I can't get to your conclusion from the paragraphs you posted.

HB.

[Free Dude]

a) ... the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons, by means of threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, of deception, of the abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person, for the purpose of exploitation. Exploitation shall include, at a minimum, the exploitation of the prostitution of others or other forms of sexual exploitation, forced labour or services, slavery or practices similar to slavery, servitude or the removal of organs;

(b) The consent of a victim of trafficking in persons to the intended exploitation set forth in subparagraph (a) of this article shall be irrelevant where any of the means set forth in subparagraph (a) have been used;
(c) The recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of a child for the purpose of exploitation shall be considered “trafficking in persons” even if this does not involve any of the means set forth in subparagraph (a) of this article;
(d) “Child” shall mean any person under eighteen years of age.

Remember that being poor means your "vulnerable".

[Jimmy Boy 99]

HB I wouldn't spend too much times on these bozos who think they have it so bad; most people know better.

If you give a girl a lift from Sharks to Oase (because she heard it's so much better there) and she gives you a piece of gum along the way (let alone any real compensation): you're liable to be prosecuted for trafficking.

If that is the case, then wouldn't all the taxi drivers who drive the girls to the clubs be subject to prosecution for trafficking? The authorities could put a big dent in the business just by going after the taxi drivers.

[Free Dude]

Just look up the official international definition that 160 countries have agreed on. I'm sure no one will actually take it to these extremes, but anyone arranging transport for a girl in this business and getting better because of it (the gum): a trafficker. They explicitly make a distinction between sexwork and other businesses, otherwise every normal job recruiter would be a traficker and guys like poor Syzygies would be "victims".

Honestly, the fact they can't or refuse to differentiate between the different set ups makes the whole thing unusable.

[Hessen Bub]

If you give a girl a lift from Sharks to Oase (because she heard it's so much better there) and she gives you a piece of gum along the way (let alone any real compensation): you're liable to be prosecuted for trafficking.

Maybe with a girl being under 21 due to stricter laws, but not with girls being over 21. Even for girls 18-21 I doubt that.

HB.

[Free Dude]

HB I wouldn't spend too much times on these bozos who think they have it so bad; most people know better.

I would use a different term though, as the definition of "traficking" is so broad as to lose any meaning. If you give a girl a lift from Sharks to Oase (because she heard it's so much better there) and she gives you a piece of gum along the way (let alone any real compensation): you're liable to be prosecuted for trafficking.

If the authorities would really mind so much, they'd make it a bit easier for girls to start in this line of work (admittedly Germany isn't as bad as Holland), thus eliminating (to some extent) the need for go betweens.