The Morality of Prostitution

[Rubber Nursey]

I had to confess to committing almost all of the Class A 'Physical' sins listed - and that was just over the course of New Years Eve!!! :)

[Joe Zop]

Rock Dog, I'd agree that women are generally more selective about who they will have sex with, which makes sense given that they're the ones most at risk for things such as disease, social scorn, and of course pregnancy. There are tons of guys over in the American women thread who complain about having to pay child support, but the bottom line is that they're writing checks and the woman is feeding, dressing, and worrying, and that's a rather larger "burden" to shoulder if you're out randomly fucking. As RN notes, there are certainly those who do, but for men one orgasm doesn't necessarily mean a major change in life circumstance, since they're giving and not receiving.

I don't buy your better deal argument -- men do the same thing, they just define "better deal" differently. And I know plenty of women who aren't holding out for a "better deal" -- they're just hoping not to get treated like crap again. If there's a better deal women are seeking, it may well be the assurance that it's gonna be more than a ten-minute walk-in-unzip-fuck-and-head-out-the-door experience, since in most cases it's going to take more than that for them to cum.

To answer your question RN (and of course I was just yanking your chain) yes, an emotional affair is also a far greater issue if the shoe's on the other foot and it's the woman out and about, because the bottom line is that if you're out shagging a sex worker you're not necessarily strongly considering whether it's time to call a halt to the existing relationship and move into another, whereas an emotional affair very much does ask the question of who's staying with who. Yes, it's damaging to the ego if your partner feels the need to get some on the side because their physical needs aren't being met, particularly if it's from someone younger and more attractive, but that doesn't necessarily indicate a forthcoming call to the moving company or divorce lawyer by your partner.

Good to hear you had a wild New Year's eve, though!

[Daddy Rulz]

Daddy's been sober a long time and was discussing the TERRIBLE SIN OF ADULTERY with his sponsor who happens to be a Catholic priest or Priest. (don't want to run afoul of the standard caps rule) His experience in the confessional is thus, Men and Woman seem to have affairs in pretty much the same proportion. Allowing for standard deviation the majority of men actually do seem to have your basic one night stand, either with loose floozies (God bless um, I do love easy woman so much more than your prim and proper types) or providers. Most are consumed by guilt and feel the need to confess to their spouses. There generally was a large amount of intoxicants involved and they don't plan on repeat engagements.

The majority of women on the other hand have affairs when they feel they are entitled to IE, their spouse has been unfaithful or not giving them the love and support they feel they deserve. Given that they feel justification for their decision they generally lack remorse and intend to continue. (I've never understood why they would be in confession if this were the case though)

I understand this is not a random cross sampling, but rather Catholics in one town that actually utilize confession.

RN I'm interested in your experience about married men you have seen professionally. Did the majority become repeat customers? Did many seem to feel remorse after the act?

[Pokey]

RN says:"But how could I excuse my partner risking a long term relationship just for a bit of variety in the bedroom? It says a lot about how much respect he has for me, if an hour with a hooker is more important to him than our marriage."


Typically women thinking. The relationship with a hooker has nothing to do with the wife or girlfriend most of the time. Hugh Grant proved this, afterall he had that hot model girlfriend Elizabeth Hurley, yet he still wanted a BJ from the nasty streets of Hollywood.

If women want to use the threat of ending a relationship if caught cheating them with a girlfriend or hooker, that's fine. But, they need to get over the ego part and realize some men even if they have steak at home every night, will still at times want to grab that nice tasty juicy hamburger, especially if it's young and tender. Most of the time it has nothing to do at all with the current wife or girlfriend, in fact at the time they are not even thinking of the wife back home.

[Sun Devil]

RN: Dear, sweet RN, as wise as you are, you seem to have forgotten some simple truths.

1. Every man knows that they alone are the maximum expression of the species, equipped with unique charm, appeal and the finest example of the male member since the origin of bipeds.

2. The rules are different for men, since all we are doing is allowing a wider cross-section of the female population to sample pure male perfection.

3. Cheating by a woman is an obvious expression of her mental instability, why on earth would she look for second best?

4. While it could be construed that we were less than perfect (perish the thought!), two rationalization techniques are sometimes used:

A. I will now go and spread my seed far and wide, to prove to the world that I am still King of the hill.

B. I may actually feel pity for the poor confused woman who has spurned perfection, and simply was conquered by a fellow male, who was just proving his studliness. Indeed, we can understand how the other guy wanted to have "our" woman, after all, we picked them FIRST.

If you just keep these sage truths in mind, you would realize what a silly question you posed.

Of course it is not the same.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Ps. those of you lacking the sarcasm gene, try reading the post again with tongue firmly in cheek. ;)

That is funny line towards the end because I thought that you were being serious, since to me, what you just said throughout your message is true. This would explain why I have not ever felt any sense of jealousy when a woman I am with falls for another man.

I just have a sense of feeling that it is her fault and who am I to stop her for making a major mistake. After that, I just drop her and look for another woman because there are just a ton of them out there to have me feel a sense of anger.

I follow the dictum of that great philosopher, Donald Kaufman in the movie "Adaptation". He said that it is more important in who you love than who loves you. This is just a philosophy that I have developed due to my own sense of self-worth, plus my sense of what I can control in life.

[Dickhead]

Anybody who would cheat on their wife and then confess is more of a dickhead than I could ever be. I've known a lot of guys who did it, though. I worked with a guy who cheated for the first time after about twenty years of marriage and not only felt compelled to confess but to confess all the prurient details such as how he removed her panties the first time, etc. What a yutz. His wife cut him off completely and forever. I was raised under the dogma of never admit anything. Deny, deny, deny, whether you have plausible deniability or not. Especially when women or cops are involved.

Me, I was faithful to my wife and now I am faithful to my prostitutes, all thirty of them that I have currently available. I don't fuck anyone who is not a prostitute as that would be cheating.

[Rock Dog]

Pokey,

Well said! That example you gave about Hugh Grant is the perfect illustration of how men are. You can have the greatest woman in the world, but there's just something about the idea of fucking a strange woman that you just met.

Someone once said " Quality is quality, and quantity is quantity, but sometimes quantity has a special quality of it's own." This helps explain why some guys need to get some on the side, even when other women aren't as attractive as the one they've got at home. Women just don't undertand that getting a little extra something on the side is just that, it's on the side. We aren't going to leave them for another woman. We probably don't even like the other woman.

A lot of guys might even go nuts if they could only do it with the same woman all the time for the rest of their lives. Getting some on the side would help them feel like they're not "missing out" on anything. Otherwise, there might actually be a higher risk that they would leave to try and find someone new.

What's worse anyways, doing it with a pro once or twice every few months (with virtually zero emotional involvement). Or thinking about your wife's best friend all the time and fantasizing about her while you fuck your wife. How do you think most women would react if you told them something like that? Cheating is cheating, but when you get right down to it, it's what's going on in your heart that counts most.

Rock

[Joe Zop]

LOL, Pokey, regarding the Hugh Grant situation. To my mind what that proves is that when guys want sex their brains can go waaaay out the window (as is proven by the number of weddings which should clearly never take place.)

OTOH, how well did the things work out with Grant and Hurley? She sure seems happier personally than he at this point, from what I've read. Or she's hired better publicists!

[Sporadic]

Dickhead: Most certainly you are correct. The chant is "Lie and Deny." It is the last refuge of the almost cornered, and if done with sufficient conviction, will leave that lingering "reasonable doubt" needed to salvage the relationship.

Daddy: Does this Priest usually chat about confessions with all and sundry? I do appreciate that he probably did not provide personal information, but I find it a little troubling, his discussions with you, even under the circumstances of twelve-stepping. Seems like psuedo-anonymous market research to me. Three guys go into a bar, a Priest, a drunk, and a child molestor, and that was just the first guy! ;)

Sun Devil: I must admit I am slightly surprised by your comment. I added the caveat in case some humor-impared person took my "maxims" as something other than satire. Then again, all satire (and humor for that matter) must have a base in fact.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Daddy Rulz]

1. The Parish is 100's of miles from where I live and I do not know a soul in it.

2. My question to him was very specific, "What are the differences you see between men and women when they have an affair and do they both seem to do it with about the same frequency?" He answered exactly as I said, I don't think it would be possible to extract any personal info from his answer. It was a very general over-view of 15 years in the confessional regarding that topic. So no, I don't believe He violated the seal of the confessional.

Now when He told me about the Bishop that was fucking chickens now THAT was pretty inappropriate and I told the reported I had to a deep cover source.

Those of us in the rooms are pretty good at mantaining anonimity even if I can't spell it.

[PsyberZombie]

Pokey writes =


" The relationship with a hooker has nothing to do with the wife or girlfriend most of the time. Hugh Grant proved this, afterall he had that hot model girlfriend Elizabeth Hurley, yet he still wanted a BJ from the nasty streets of Hollywood. "

Reminds me of a Conversation I had with a Hooker not long ago , right after a .4 BBBJTCIM =

SW : " Are you married ?? "

PZ : " Yes "

SW : " That sucks "

PZ : " No... if it sucked , I wouldn't be here with You !! "

[My Alias]

If you plan to monger, be safe. And to help you out, Consumer Reports recently tested and rated the performance of condoms. Here's a link to a story about the top performers, http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/01/04/best.condoms.reut/index.html

[Dickhead]

I thought my vocabulary was pretty good but I admit I had never heard of felching. At least there's one sin Rubbie didn't commit on New Year's Eve.

So if premarital sex is a sin and so is masturbation, aren't guys going to get a little bit "backed up"? Of course in Biblical times many people married shortly after puberty so it was less of an issue.

And as far as "using artificial birth control" is concerned, did felching develop as a method of birth control? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Sporadic]

Dickhead: Felching

A good friend (!) introduced me to this term (only the term, not the practice!) quite a few years ago, and to be honest, it almost sounded like an urban legend (indeed it may be, like the gerbil stories.) After our discovery of this term, we coined one of our own: "Scutch." This is defined as the mark left behind on the carpet after the dog scoots his arse, hind legs up, as they are want to do. ;)

I swear (har!) that the online confessional was a throw away, I really never expected you or anyone else to plumb it´s depths as it were.

You, Mr. Dickhead, obviously are in need of something better...

Try this link: http://www.ulc.org

Look for the "instant ordination" link. You could be Rev. Dickhead in no time!

They also offer "instant absolution" for those of you who require that particular service.

Daddy Rulz: Excuse my poor attempt at levity, no offense intended. I seriously doubt any clergyman, of any faith, would betray the trust of their office.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[PsyberZombie]

here's the dictionary definition =

1. felch

(1) verb. the act of sucking or licking ejaculate (or other
substances mixed with ejaculate) out of the orifice in which they
were deposited. most commonly used to refer to sucking out semen
after anal sex, but technically sucking the semen out of your
girlfriend's pussy is also felching

(2) noun, referring to the substance ingested during the act of
felching--generally a mixture of semen and other bodliy fluids
([CodeWord113] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord113), sweat, vaginal fluid, etc.)

usage:

i couldn't believe it. after nigel packed my ass, he felched me!

dude, you've got felch all over your face.

2. felch

(1) verb. to suck your own cum out of another persons ass.

usage: i felched your mom.

if you wish to substitute a 'benign' word in place of 'felch'
[ as in using the terms 'frick' or 'fork' for f**k ] , use the verb
'flense'

[My Alias]

Be careful, guys, that SW you pick up may be more than advertised, http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/aliens/61245

[My Alias]

Broward County pro turns in a man after noticing child porn on his computer, http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0107HookerTip07-ON.html.

[Gorilla69]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000742061

This reporter posed as a SW as part of a sting...

[Gorilla69]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/15/1058035012641.html

Australia seems to be quite a place to live...

[Gorilla69]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1271301,00.html

Seems Spanish women are setting themselves up for this one...

[Sporadic]

Lady and gentlemen,

Anyone game for crafting a "Code of Ethics for mongering?" While it is rather difficult to truly apply morality to this question, certainly we can be ethical in our amorality?

We have had some cute suggestions in the past, but I would be interested in the collective opinion.

Suggestion 1: Pay the agreed price.

Suggestion 2: Respect Privacy.


Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rock Dog]

Sporadic,

What amorality are you talking about? Why does P4P have to be immoral? That's the real question here. It's funny how "society" (as a whole) tries to impose it's values on certain issues when privately everyone (as an individual) tries to do the exact opposite.

Rock

[Joe Zop]

Nice idea, Sporadic:

Suggestion 3: Respect Boundaries.

[Sporadic]

JoeZ: A question sir. Do you mean sexual, behavioral boundaries? or more in a privacy context?

While I think I know exactly what you intended to say, there are lots of folks here who speak English as a second language. I was going to expound upon my two suggestions (everyone has there own definitions,) Could I ask you to elaborate on yours?

Cheers,

Sporadic

Ps. Hopefully, when everyone has weighed in, we can post a compilation.

Pay the agreed price. Failing an early bailout, or complete non-performance (this does NOT include "not clicking") this point should be self evident.

Privacy: This includes respecting names (if they want to be called "Breezy" then so be it) Not prying, and above all, not posting personally identifiable material (text or photos) that could prejudice the provider. Included here would be not passing on the contact without permission from the provider. Any more to add here folks?

Obviously, a complete rip-off artist deserves a write up as fair warning to others, but I am talking about normal service here.

[Joe Zop]

Ok, following your lead:

Boundaries. If a provider specifies a particular sexual act is off-limits (anal, kissing, whatever) then the option is either to call the encounter off or to respect the provider's limits. In addition, unless it's something directly agreed to by the provider, rough handling, striking, or verbal abuse is unacceptable. (Note that this is different from dirty talk or vigorous sex, but one should also be clear that the provider is ok with these.)

[Daddy Rulz]

Pay after the act always:

I know in sex prison this is hardly the norm. However I will always believe that it is us, not the provider that holds the Aces. Ultimatly this market is driven by demand not supply. If nobody agreed to pay until after the act rip off's would become a thing of the past. If we "the johns" simply refused to pay until the service was given quickly the norm would change.

[Sporadic]

Rock Dog
What amorality are you talking about?

Well, without getting into sematics here, I think that most people and societies would describe prostitution as an immoral act. Compounded by the fact that many punters are also married.

I am not defending the hypocritical attitudes of society as a whole, and this is hardly the only example of stunning hypocriticality in modern society, but since our topic is prostitution, it is where I will hang my hat.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[PsyberZombie]

In the Rock·Climbing World , there is frequent talk about Ethics , just like you guys are discussing here

... but Cynics in that little sub·culture wisely point out that 'Ethics' is just another word for Rules , but that rock climbers are way too cool and 'un·conventional' to ever agree to follow 'Rules' , so they call them 'Ethics' instead

As Sporadic notes = What , exactly , is Ethical about leading a Secret Double Life , which is what every Monger is basically doing ??

I'll bet you guys thought you were leading this Secret Double Life mainly because you were Horny or just wanted a little Variety in your life , right ??

**WRONG** !!!

Psychiatrists now know that , in fact , YOU are a much more Complex Person than you ever imagined !!

Just read this for furthur details =

http://*******.com/53jex

[Sporadic]

PZ: While I appreciate your concern for my psychosocial development, I was simply looking for collective wisdom. My, we have progressed greatly since the topic was felching!

I define the terms thus...

Ethics: A set of principles of right conduct.
In this case, how to be a decent John.

Morals: Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character.
In this case, to each their own.

Where is RN when we need her most? ;)

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

Hey, there have been plenty of discussions here about whether or not prostitution is moral or immoral, and while I'm certainly up for more, Sporadic's topic is something new, and seems worthy of considering.

Any mafia film (or the Sopranos) ends up focusing a lot on standards of ethical behavior within essentially immoral subcultures. Most professions have codes of ethics. It's at least interesting to look at, with either one of our secret lives. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

"Any mafia film (or the Sopranos) ends up focusing a lot on standards of ethical behavior within essentially immoral subcultures".

Honour among thieves - something I've always found to be true within the sex industry.

IMHO, 'immorality' is nigh on impossible to define, as it's entirely subjective. Many people on the 'outside' would classify everyone involved in the industry as immoral, because they provide sexual gratification to strangers. Massage only workers often consider hookers immoral, because they have actual intercourse with strangers. Hookers would obviously not consider sex with strangers to be too sinful, but may see stealing as immoral. A poverty-stricken homeless sex worker may see stealing as simply a survival tactic, but may think lying is immoral...etc, etc.

Ethics and honour, however, are things that everyone in the industry should have and abide by.

The three 'rules' you have so far are great - but at the core of each of those suggestions is one simple word. RESPECT. Respect the fact that she is a service provider and as such, she has the right to set her own prices and dictate what that service does and does not include. Respect the fact that she is working in an industry that is looked down on by society (and in some cases, is a criminal act) and that she has friends and family and a future that could be destroyed if her privacy is compromised. Respect the fact that you are not 'buying' her body - you are purchasing a specific service and as such, you do not have the right to do something to her body that she hasn't agreed to (or force her to do things to you).


PS. Daddy Rulz - "However I will always believe that it is us, not the provider that holds the Aces".

It's no secret that this comment really shits me - I've whined about it often enough! ALL retail and/or service transactions are driven by demand, but that doesn't mean the person demanding it necessarily holds the power. Restaurants only cook meals because people are hungry, but do you have the right to tell them what should or shouldn't be on the menu, or how much they should charge for it? Or WHEN they should charge for it? I live in a rural area and if I want to purchase something by mail order, I have to pay for it up front (credit card or money order) before they will put it in the post for me. Too bad if the product is the wrong colour or size or it's broken when it gets to me - that's something I have to fight about with them later. I could settle for an inferior product from another company that will send it COD or I could wait a few months until I'm heading to the city next - but if I want that exact product and I want it now, then I will have to pay up front, because that's how that company chooses to do business.

The service provider is the one who defines the service, sets the price AND dictates the conditions of sale. If you want anal and she doesn't, find a girl that offers it. If you don't want to go to a brothel, call an escort. And if you don't want to pay up front, find a worker who doesn't require it. But I don't believe that you, as the consumer, have the right to set the conditions of sale.

[Rubber Nursey]

By the way, I should add that there is a very good reason for demanding payment up front - and that is the lack of legal recourse. If you go into a restaurant and eat and then do a runner without paying, they will be straight down to the local copshop to report your thieving ass. If you do a runner on a sex worker after she's just had sex with you for an hour, she has nowhere to go for help. The money from that booking is gone, the money she could have earned in that time from another honest client is gone and...well, she just had sex with a complete stranger (and potentially exposed herself to disease, pregnancy, etc) for nothing.

I realise that clients don't have a whole lot of legal avenues in these matters either, but when it comes down to it, clients DO sometimes report sex workers who rip them off and police DO usually side with the client, regardless of what actually happened. In many countries where prostitution is illegal, there are no laws that punish the client for engaging in it, only the sex worker who solicited it - so you CAN call the cops. But even in places where prostitution is not illegal, like here, sex workers do NOT have full access to the law.

If you have a problem with paying up front, don't demand change from the sex workers. Demand legislative change from your Government.

[Rock Dog]

All this talk about ethics!

It's funny because certain high-minded individuals would like to set up some kind of code by which we can operate and then evryone will live happily ever after.

Yeah right! That's like two guys getting ready to fight. One of them is gonna go by "gentlemans boxing" rules, and the other one is going to scratch, bite and kick balls. My point is, it's good to be ethical but that doesn't mean much if the person you're dealing with is a rat (female or otherwise).

I've run into all types. Some girls took my money and then tried to bugger off on me. Others gave me an excellent time and things worked out great for both of us. I'm sure there's a lot of Johns out there who are dirty fucking bastards to the women they meet but that doesn't mean I should become one to protect myself from getting ripped off.

RN has it right. A little respect goes a long way. The simplest thing to do is find a girl (or a few girls) that you like, trust, and have good dealings with. If someone tries to scam you, warn your friends, leave them in the dust and never look back.

Just my 2 centavos,

Rock

[My Alias]

Owner of FKK Happy to donate part of proceeds to tsunami relief fund, http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3153869a4560,00.html#121

[Travis Bickle 2]

RN, I definately have to side with you on the issue of paying up front. I've heard from countless sex workers just how hard it is to get a guy to pay the agreed amount after the sex act is completed. One thing I often do to attempt to get good service, is to agree to a slightly lesser amount for service with the promise to tip if I recieve good service. That way the gal is taken care of up front and she usually tries hard to get the tip. I do believe in tipping. Its just like any other service industry (like waitressing), if you recieve good service you should reward it.

So that'll be my contribution to this discussion: REWARD GOOD SERVICE

Civ2000

[Daddy Rulz]

RN,

I regret that my opinion gives you the shits. We of course look at this hobby from completely different sides. I understand, accept and am willing to defend your right to set your terms regarding what act's your willing to preform, what prices you demand and when you expect payment to be made. You have made some excellent points, please allow me to respond.

In a restaurant if I don't like the menu, price, preparation, presentation or taste of the meal at any point up to consuming the meal I have the right to refuse service and leave without paying. If I consume the meal and on the last bite find somebody's gold tooth in it I would refuse to pay at this point as well. However if I eat it I pay for it. There have been times when I didn't like it but ate it anyway because I was hungry. I paid but didn't patronize again.

Ordering by credit card, here in the States (it may be different in OZ) if something is delivered broken, wrong size, color etc I would return it, and then ask for a refund. If a refund was not given then I would take recourse through the credit card company, most of them would use their pressure to refund the charges.

I agree, that it is the providers provonse (I probably spelled that wrong) to set whatever conditions He or She desires. I would never argue with them to try and deny that right, just as I would never argue with a waiter about what a Restaurant charges for it's food. If I don't think the price, service or payment options are to MY liking I have several options, I can try a counter offer for price (I rarely do this because I'm not into cut rate service, if I'm strongly attracted to a woman I pay it or pass) I can offer a better price for extras (more money for anal, CIM etc. This must be done respectfully but I don't believe it's out of line to offer) I am adamant however in payment terms, I always pay after and never before. In BsAs when a bunch of us started doing this it was very unusual and most of the girls wouldn't go for it, now however it has become more common place and most do.

Why do I insist on this? Since I stopped paying in advance I no longer have clock watchers, I no longer have "Oh I didn't understand you, I never do that!" I don't get rushed, lackluster sessions because I still retain the only leverage I have, payment. If any provider declines to accept these terms (I tell them in advance, in the club or to the person setting the appointment on the phone, not the hotel) I respect them. I thank them for their time talking to me, kiss them on the cheek (I really am sweet to them) and tell them if they have a change of heart I would still be interested.

I understand your comments about lack of legal recourse because I have none as well. If some girl promises a BBBJ and then changes her mind after my money is in her purse what am I to do? A long time ago I picked up a SW and we agreed to a price for a CBJ, as soon as she started to do it she looked up at me and said "you have 5 minutes" Then she said "four" then "three" with the obvious result. What was I to do, call a cop?

I don't force anybody to accept my terms, I don't belittle them if they choose not to. What I do, is not use their service and that is the reason that I feel that we, not the providers ultimately hold the aces. They decide what and how they will offer what they may, but we decide to purchase or not. This is not about a lack of respect just market forces at work.

We may never agree on the issue, but I think we can agree that both parties have the same right to decide on what terms they will enter into this agreement. And both parties have the right to decline if any of the terms or conditions are not suitable to them.

RN Love if you take any of this as a flame please don't, as I said several times I respect your right to conduct your business how you see fit. I'm only asking for the same in return.

Besos, DR

[Joe Zop]

RN, while in many ways I agree with you, the essence of supply and demand is that both sides have control -- the provider has the control of offering service in a specific manner, and the customer has control in accepting or declining such an offer. There is also equal pressure on what follows -- the customer can accept that what the provider offers is standard and change his/her requirements or can seek another provider to get specifically what is desired. In the latter instance, a provider has lost business based on the package offered, the provider can see they are getting lesser business than desired and then has the ability to adjust their services to the going rate or set of options. Both maintain control, which is the supply/demand dynamic.

As far as the payment process -- I've never ripped off a provider and always pay what is agreed upon, but the simple truth is that I've never had a bait and switch or rip-off experience in an instance where I pay later, and I have had them with alarmingly high frequency when I pay up front. If I pay up front then I am surrendering all control.

[Rubber Nursey]

"If I pay up front then I am surrendering all control".

And if you pay after, WE are surrendering all control. So either we end up with a stalemate where nobody gets any sex at all OR someone has to set the ground rules and the other has to follow them. And as the person selling the product, I believe the sex worker should be the one setting the terms of the transaction. The customer always has the right to refuse.

"...but the simple truth is that I've never had a bait and switch or rip-off experience in an instance where I pay later, and I have had them with alarmingly high frequency when I pay up front".

Obviously, it's the other way around for our side of the equation! Like most working girls, I learned the hard way never to leave payment until after the booking. Not only do you have the guys who specifically set out to rob you blind, but there are a lot of clients (and it's written ALL over this forum!) who decide they will only pay what THEY believe the service was worth. 'Good sex' is also highly subjective - there could be a million reasons why the two of you didn't click. (And they could be all HIS fault!) And don't forget that this decision is being made AFTER sex, when the rose-coloured glasses have come off and cold, post-orgasm reality has set in. You think he's gonna hand over two hundred dollars when he's just realised that he's promised me his wife's birthday present money?

I would always prefer to turn a client away and lose income, rather than risk being ripped off after the fact.

[Sporadic]

Suggestion 1: Pay the agreed price.

Suggestion 2: Respect Privacy.

Suggestion 3: Respect Boundaries.

Suggestion 4: Pay after the act always.

Suggestion 5: Reward good service.

It would appear everyone in on-board with numbers 1,2 and 3.

Number 4 seems to depend upon your point of view. Like Joe, I have never ripped off a provider, but I have been ripped off.

Where I do my hobbying, pay after is a well established policy, for me at least, but is actually a moot point unless this is a new (to me) provider. I appreciate that Dubai has a rather unique scene in that respect so my experiences are probably not an entirely valid contribution to this discussion.

Suggestion 5 has been a personal hobby-horse of mine for years. I try very hard to have a relaxed, enjoyable experience with sex workers. Better for them, and way better for me. A tip is an excellent way of expressing your pleasure, for any service.

May I suggest that numbers 4 and 5 are actually more of a "best practices" kind of thing vice ethical standards?

Keep those cards and letters coming in!

Cheers,

Sporadic

[PsyberZombie]

Did you guys hear that it fricken Snowed in Las Vegas this week ??

So I guess Hell really has frozen over , which explains why I actually *agree* with RN for once !!

To wit : the girl should be paid first

I also do what Civ2000 does = offer less up front , but promise a good tip for excellent service . And if the price isn't outrageous , I pay the entire sum first and also offer a tip after·wards
[ a decent looking SW gets .4 for a BBBJ here where I live , Rhode Island , USA ]

A side benefit to this Tip Routine is that tossing a girl a Jackson tip will almost always get her to offer you her digits [ I don't even ask any more because if the girl doesn't offer them , that usually means she doesn't have any to offer ]

In my humble experience , if you follow this routine , the next time you pick up the same chick she will A.) Remember you , and B.) NOT ask for the money first . So those of you who don't like paying first should try it Civ's and my way , and then every·one will be :) Happy :) !!

[Joe Zop]

RN, I agree that the provider has the right to set the rules and I have the right to refuse. At the same time, I, as a customer, have the right to state the terms of service I'm interested in and willing to accept. And if I were to go into a restaurant that asked me to pay before I received my meal I would simply go to another restaurant. And if I order a specific dish, it is not acceptable for me to be brought another one without my express agreement simply because that's what the restaurant decides to serve me. The same is true with most service providers in other fields -- I don't pay doctors, plumbers, gardeners, electricians, mechanics, or any other professionals before they do their job, and it's a process of mutual agreement about what is to be done as part of the contract.

Now, there are plenty of situations where I've no difficulty in paying up front. If I'm at a brothel, a massage parlor, or any establishment where I've got some degree of recourse or a clear location where I can find the provider if I'm scammed then it's no issue. If I've got some kind of report or testimonial that this specific person or service is reliable then I'm generally confident enough to pay first.

The times I've had problems and when I am hesitant about paying up-front are almost exclusively with outcall services or pickups or in third-world countries. In those situations it can be almost a programmed script that ten minutes after the money is handed over a "problem" arises and a) I need to go see my driver b) I need to leave to deal with my kids, c) I have a brand new set of rules that are completely different from the ones we discussed ten minutes ago before cash was handed over. And because my money is gone my avenues of response are limited. I have in fact three times called in hotel security because the "provider" decided she needed to leave immediately upon receiving my cash (with no services provided and less than ten minutes elapsed) and refused to return it or leave it there until her return, and I once had a knife pulled on me in that situtation. I have also called women's services several times when such a scenario arose, and in those situations it was generally much less than a toss-up as to whether anything positive would happen. And in places like Thailand or Kenya handing over the money up-front is tantamount to announcing that a) the session is over and it's time for the woman to leave or b) you're new at this and ripe for being scammed or ripped off -- and eight out of ten times that's exactly what will happen. I haven't dealt with streetwalkers for decades, so I have no comment on the scenarios there.

I appreciate that the provider also feels at risk in these situations, and generally go out of my way to demonstrate I understand that and am not going to be a problem. I generally show that the money is there and set aside and I've got no problem having it in plain sight. In most of these situations (other than the third-world ones where it's absolutely customary to discretely pay as the provider is leaving) I'm going to have it discreetly put aside in an envelope but clearly evident. But once it's put away I know there's a far, far higher percentage chance I'm gonna get screwed, and not in the fashion I'm counting on. I completely agree with making clear that I tip for superior service, and that can help, and obviously most of these issues are with first-time as opposed to return engagements since in the latter there's a degree of history and trust. But I would rather walk away horny (or, generally more accurately in these scenarios, send the woman away) and have done so, than risk being ripped off.

PZ, the first time I went to Vegas, it did nothing but snow. I had naturally packed nothing appropriate and froze my ass off most of my time there. I was forced to stay in casinos almost my entire trip, simply to make sure I had enough nickels to rub together to keep me warm! :D

[Freeler]

RN,

Do you pay the man before you enter his shop? Do you pay the painter before he finishes the job on your house? Do you give the garage your car and your money?
I think not!

I make a point of paying after the deed. The money handover time is part of the talks. Any woman who changes her mind on that subject may change her mind on other things as well.
There is one place where I do pay in advance. Right here, at home in the Lowlands. Prostitution is a legitimate business here, so the ladies have to comply with certain simple rules. If the lady doesn't deliver, I can walk away and come back with the police.
Tho (female) coppers may find the situation awkward, their presence alone will fuck up business in the area for at least an hour.

[PsyberZombie]

You guys keep using the analogies of Legitimate Businesses to justify why you shouldn't pay the girl until after the Act

BUT = Prostitution is ILLEGAL , and any·time an Illegal Act is performed for Money , the Customer pays *first*

Better analogies here would be hiring an Arsonist to burn down your business ; or a Hit Man to snuff your spouse ; or in the old days , arranging for a criminal Abortion

[ If your Hit Man agrees to paid from the Insurance Money after you collect , you can be sure that it's an Under·cover Cop you're dealing with ]

The reason seems fairly obvious = there's no legitimate recourse if the act is performed but then the customer refuses to pay

Do you risk getting ripped off ??

Of course , but because not every Monger has the gentle nature and excellent Impulse Control that we here have , these Con Artists Chicks are usually the ones that end up beat up or murdered , if it's any consolation

[Rubber Nursey]

You know...I drank quite a lot over the weekend, so when I woke up feeling kinda strange, I just blamed the vodka. But it wasn't the booze, was it...I WAS OBVIOUSLY ABDUCTED BY ALIENS AND TRANSPORTED TO SOME SORT OF ALTERNATIVE REALITY!

How else can I explain PZ agreeing with me??? *grin*

Like he said, it's all about legal recourse. Here, clients can go to the cops (without fear of arrest) and report me for ripping them off. I don't have the same luxury. Even if I managed to follow all the ridiculous guidelines and be one of the few girls actually working 'legally' here, I would still end up worse off if I went to police. (Better to be a couple of hundred bucks out, than become 'known' to the police and deal with the ensuing harassment).

Sorry, but I need that cash up front or it's just not worth me taking the risk. PZ's criminal analogies were right on the money.

Hey...was that a pig flying past my window? :)

[El Aleman]

RN:

There are 2 places that I personally know, where payment afterwards is the established procedure, but for quite different reasons:

- German FKK's
Here, everybody has his / her peace of mind with it. On one side, it leaves the actual time spent together open (usually it is charged in 30 min. increments). Good for the girl, because if she makes me happy, I rather often like to enjoy this state of happiness for a longer time than the originally planned half hour.

The customer can refuse payment in case of a total denial of service, but will be politely but VERY effectively be reminded of his duties by the club's "security" staff if he should just try to run away. The girl is sure to get her money as long as she adhers to the standards the club considers appropriate. The rules here are neither set by the girl nor the client - they are established by the club.

- Buenos Aires
I don't know, if it was "us" (the WSG mongers) who in fact changed rules down there, but I agree with him that it is usually accepted if brought up during the initial negotiations. If this rulechange is the case, maybe "we" also established a reputation as reliable clients who usually keep their promises. It should not be forgot, that "we" usually consume in the high end of the market and often pay a premium compared with locals.

Interestingly, in both places, prostitution is NOT illegal.

What can happen in a different setting, can be read in my recent post in the Nexico City section, http://www.*************.info/forum/showthread.php?t=433 . I don't know any other business, where an offer, that has ben explicitely published (on a website) could be changed after payment is received. So much to business ethics.

Terms of any transaction are open to negotiation, and in a situation of high supply, the buyer's chances to set his terms grow, with high demand those of the seller. BA is a place of high supply.

I have never denied a girl payment afterwards, not even in situations where I was rather unsatisfied. I am always willing to concede that just the "chemistry" was not there which is necessary for something as intimate as sex, paid or not, even if I suspected that it was not lacking chemistry but just plain bad service, not even trying from the girls side to establisch that "chemistry". I did however throw girls out of my room, with taxi fare, when I got the impression that things would go sour after (advance) payment.

just 2 cents,


El Alemán

[CBGBConnisur]

I don't see any crime in prostitution, there are worse things that human beings have done to one another in the past, and continue to do today in the 21st century. People will continue to have and enjoy sex in the next 1000 years. Human nature will never change. The best solution is to accomodate prostitution in the most humane manner possible, keeping out unsavory elements such as organized crime. Most of Western Europe, Canada, and Australia regulate the trade. The only developed nation that still keeps the trade underground is the US.

[Sporadic]

In the inimitable words of Mr. Carlin:

"Selling is legal; Sex is legal. So why isn´t selling sex legal?"

It seems to me that the only way to minimize the exploitation-slavery aspect (the real downside to prostitution IMHO) would be legalisation and regulation.

Sin taxes have been working wonders for decades.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[My Alias]

If an unemployed woman doesn't report for a job interview at a brothel, she can lose her benefits. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml

[Mikster]

The decline of Europe continues. My brother lives in Germany and told me something about this but I didnt believe him, thought he was joking. An unbelievable article. What if the girl was married or engaged? This is insanity gone amuck. I love working girls as much as the next guy, but I never want to fuck a girl who doesnt want it, or for that matter, a girl who is practically forced into it or face serious financial problems. Even more unbelievable in a first world country like Germany (for now). Im not a moralist or religious, but this breaks the common decency of a civilized country, if they are one anymore.

Milkster

[El Chapin]

That story ran through German media as well, a couple of weeks ago. It soon turned out to be complete nonsense. Although prostitution is perfectly legal, it's still considered to be an "immoral ocupation", and no one will be referred to this kind of employment by the state-run job agencies, let alone be "forced" to work in the trade.

[Your Guest]

Dear Joe and RN,

Remember me? Now we have a level playing field. Jackson mailed me that I was a senior member one privilege being that my posts appear as soon as they are posted.

Yogesh

[Joe Zop]

Congrats on your upgrade -- use it wisely! :D

[Domino]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../30/wgerm30.xml

I agree this is bad; sexual discrimination of this sort has no place in today's enlightened age. Why do German men not have to report for this kind of work as well? And what about immigrants and refugees? They too could spread their legs for chump change to make Germany a happier, more tolerant place.

That is, of course, mho, but the Neo Nazis do not agree: http://www.stormfront.org/archive/t-179616Is_Segregation/t-139623Fahrenheit_9/t-181826Germany:_%27Work_As_A_Prostitute_Or_Risk_Losing_Benefits%27.html

Takes all types, I guess.

[Your Guest]

Thank you very much Uncle Joe, I will try to be as wise as my IQ allows me to be. Sir.

[CBGBConnisur]

Prostitution is either legal or tolerated in every western society except the United States. Its not that in other countries that people are more accepting of the trade, its just that in these countries lawmakers understand human nature and that it can't be changed. In many ways prostitution carries a negative stigma worldwide, no one is proud to prostitute themselves for money.

[Sporadic]

CBGB.

I agree with you 100%.

When I was a wh*re to a fortune 50 corporation, I was never really proud of myself.

We all have something to sell, and I personally, have a hard time distinguishing between one type and another.

Care to defend used car salesmen? Sure, there are good ones, like ANY profession.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Your Guest]

Dear Sporadic,

The metaphor that you have used proves CBGBc's point, I am sure you did not sell your sexual pleasures when you worked for a Fortune Fifty company, you were made to feel expoloiated, dehumanised etc., so you say you were a whor*.

Yogesh

[Sporadic]

Yogesh,

The point I was trying to make, obviously not very effectively, was that there is no real difference.

I wonder if providers (wh*res in the vernacular) would be pleased to be compared to used car salesmen?

Or corporate folks who sell their SOUL rather than rent their affections?

I was not characterising myself as being like a wh*re as much as was pointing out that a provider has many traits in common with any worker.

It is interesting (I am not picking on you Yogesh!) that we still (generalising again) choose to revile sex workers and not the people who sacrifice family relations (to give you an example) for their work.

I put it to you that a person who puts their work above family responsibilities (as most do... think about it, do you work for food, or a new car?) are commiting a more grave moral crime than one who provides a service that is in demand to meet their temporal needs.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

Well, we all make choices regarding how far we're willing to go to get what we need/want, but in most cases it's a pretty blurry line. In most cases one works not for food or for a new car, but for both -- for a "better life" however one defines that. It's rare and priviledged circumumstance that allows one to do that in an absolutely free way, without needing to do this or that one finds disagreeable. And even if one finds it disagreeable, it hardly makes the choice an immoral one. I don't think many of us would disagree that volition is a key aspect -- is someone is literally and forcibly compelled to do something they do not want to do there's a pretty clear aspect of immorality present (though not on the person who's forced.)

I generally find morality a series of grays rather than a black and white, but I've simply never understood why the sex act is somehow a holy line that, once crossed, renders one morally suspect. I generally find the human attitude toward sex to be gibberish. To me, something like boxing, where the intent is to use your body to inflict physical damage on your opponent, and which has clear long-term negative impact, is far more morally suspect than is using your body to provide someone else relief or pleasure.

[Cash Works]

Sporadic,

I get your point. In the company I used to work for, many of my colleagues thought of themselves as wh*res. This was primarily due to the large number of people who would quit (usually in disgust over some crap that management was trying to pull) - swearing they'd never return, then after a month or two away, they'd show up on the crew again - sometimes in the same position they had before they quit, sometimes in a more junior position (demotion), usually for the same pay - I can only think of one or two people who came back to a higher position than they had when they left. There were a couple more who submitted their resignation, but were enticed to stay for more money - they were definitely not proud of themselves, but enjoyed the fact that they were making more money.

One distinction that I think should be made, whether right or wrong, is between the term "prostitute" and "wh*re" - Prostitute generally describes a profession - regardless of what you may think of the profession, the Prostitute may have thier own standards & may not cross certain lines - the Wh*re will cross the line, if the price is right. So, all Wh*res are Prostitutes, but not all Prostitutes are Wh*res. It's up to the individual to decide which one they may be.

Semantics? Maybe. I personally don't like the term "Wh*re" due to its derogatory (intentionally insulting) nature.

CW

[Long Stroker]

I saw what you were getting at, Sporadic. We're all wh*res in some way or another. Some simply more than others, right?

In Jack Welch's new book, "Winning", the former CEO of GE recounts that his top level executives were expected to attend meetings *every* single Saturday during his tenure. He viewed Saturday morning/early afternoon as an ideal time to "wrap up" the events of the preceeding week and plan for the week ahead. By his own admission, not *once* did it cross his mind that his execs might have someplace more important to be on a Saturday. Welch acknowledges, in retrospect, that his relationship with his wife (1st wife) and kids did certainly suffer as a result of his choices.

[Sporadic]

Gents,

You all make some excellent points. I too do not like the word wh*re, for exactly the same reasons Mr. J bans the word.

In a purely moral sense, I supoose that I am worse than any provider since I spend income on my "hobby" that could be put to "better" use.

Yogesh, Where are you? I would be interested in your opinion.

JoeZ,

For me, the best thing a provider sells is not just sex. It is company, hopefully mutually enjoyable, physical and intimate, but company. I agree that the band of grey is very, very wide.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

I don't disagree with you in the least, Sporadic, regarding the company, and that is one of my primary concerns unless it's simply an hit-and-run encounter (though often even then.) And spending money to spend time with someone is never a moral issue -- people do that all the time in innumerable incarnations -- it's the whole sex aspect that seems to somehow slide it over the line society draws.

[Sporadic]

JoeZ,

I have no doubt we are roughly on the same wavelength here, sorry if I gave you a different impression.

I suppose I was suggesting that the services I enjoy (excluding those hit and run encounters) could be judged to be as much therapy as anything else.

To be honest, a decent encounter with a good provider beats the heck out 45 minutes with a Freudian. ;)

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

to be honest, a decent encounter with a good provider beats the heck out 45 minutes with a freudian. ;)

lol -- well, getting hit in the head repeatedly with a sharp stone beats the heck out of 45 minutes with a freudian. give me a rogerian (or better still a cognitive restructurist) any day :d

actually, a session with a provider acutally has a lot in common with a hour or so with a rogerian, come to think of it ... how is it described? entering into the client's unique phenomenological world? focusing on the immediate conscious experience? sure sounds like a good therapeutic boink to me!

[Sporadic]

Joe:
Give me a Rogerian (or better still a cognitive restructurist) any day I personally prefer a modified version of TA (no, not tits and ass you evil thinkers!)

It is known as "I´m OK, you´re F*cked up!" ;)

Seriously, I am not much for "therapy" although I recognize that many benefit from it... My stock answer is "pop your head out."

In my experience, showing a little respect for fellow human beings, and understanding that everyone is a little bit screwed up/twisted and or steeped in "sin" puts things in perspective.

It does gall me that my peccadillos are seen as being particularly bad by most in society (the sex taboo thing again.) I suggest that I have met more "decent" people in the hobby, both providers and clients, than in society at large.

Of course (to steal the line) I could be wrong. :)

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Bez Bezarra]

Prostitution is either legal or tolerated in every western society except the United States. .

Don't kid yourself- Its plenty tolerated in the US.
If the politicians and police wanted to, they could shut down every escort serivce and jack-shack massage therapy place tomorrow.
The only ones you hear about getting busted are the ones that aren't paying
off the cops, judges, and elected officials.

Is it just a coincidence that there are more than 200 escort service ads
in the South Florida yellow pages? That's a whole lot of advertising revenue
for Bell South. You think their CEO is going to let some mayor say he has to give that money up? You think as many male tourists and conventioneers would come down here, if it wasn't so easy to p4p? You think the state of Florida depends on tourist dollars, its half the fucking economy!!!!
Same story in Vegas, Atlantic City, etc.

Mickey Mouse is what they want american soccer moms to picture in their minds when they imagine a vacation in FL, not "Exotic Latin Girls Hot Hot Hot Total Relaxation Agency Open 24 Hours $180 Outcalls". With flowing booze, sun and the beach, racetracks to gamble and now the Seminole casinos to boot, the only sin left is "la chocha".

On the other hand, how many escort services advertise in Lincoln Nebraska or Keokuk Iowa or Hibbing Minnesota. No offense if you live there.

Rule number one is always always always- FOLLOW THE MONEY!
And there is no rule #2.

[Smut Villain]

Rule number one is always always always- FOLLOW THE MONEY!
And there is no rule #2.

Yes, there is a Rule #2:

Rule #2 - See Rule #1

[Domino]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4482913.stm

I was going to put in a bid myself. Maybe next time.
Good post Mangus Man.

[CBGBConnisur]

Escort services exist in the states but they never explicitly state that they offer sex, it might be implied. There are spot checks from time to time and if you do get caught you can be subject to some draconian measures(one twon in California puts your name and photo on the internet and cable tv station to tell the world that so and so visits hookers). Some escorts will charge you a fee then tell you what happens between you two is between you and the girl. Go to Europe, and the girl will ask you straight up "Do you want a fuck and suck???". Its more legal in other places that people could be that explicit.

I have gone to countries where a can of soda can cost 5 dollars but a good sex session with a 20 year old nordic blonde would only cost you 25 bucks.

[Rock Dog]

CBGB,
Only 20 bucks? I'll skip the soda and take the girl!!!
What country is that anyways??

Rock

[Rock Dog]

I have this theory that I'm working on.

It goes like this; There is no difference between so-called prostitutes and so-called "normal" women. There is only a spectrum of behavior that follows a common principle. This principle is self-benefit.

Most people will do something (or not do something) according to the perceived potential gain (or loss) resulting from that action. So I think that most women operate on this same principle. None of them will associate with a man, putting in their time and effort, unless they perceive that there will be some kind of benefit from the relationship.

Some women will try to get a little benefit from numerous men (prostitute). Some will try to get more benefit from fewer men (eg. social wh*res and serial divorcers). Some will try and receive all benefit from just one man (faithful wives). But, in reality, all of them are working according to the same fundamental principle of self-benefit. They just employ different strategies.

Therefore, to me, a woman who marries a guy for his paycheck isn't really that much different than the one from the escort agency who fucks you for money. Is this idea too radical? Am I crazy to think this way or does anyone else think the same?

Rock

[Sporadic]

Rock Dog
I have this theory that I'm working onYou are not the first on this case, RD. Are you suggesting that this is conscious behaviour, or genetic instinct? Social anthropology has beaten this subject to death already.

I personally doubt that providers are making a "well-being" choice when they enter the profession (excepting bonafide economic needs or personal emotional / sexual desires.) I fear you oversimplify.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Daddy Rulz]

Ex wife divorced second husband two months before my child support ran out. She is now set to have her income supplimented until one year short of retirement. Same thing I think.

[Domino]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4532617.stm
An interesting global report here from the ILO, complete with nice graphs. It looks like Africa is bearish on the hooker industry and that Asia under performs too. The link has a link to download the entire report in PDF and to express your opinion about this trade.

[Rock Dog]

Daddy Rulz,

Thanks for the example. According to my theory, she is a perfect example of category #2 (social wh*re/serial divorcer). I hope you don't take any offence from my labelling your ex-wife in this category :).

Rock

ps. Sporadic, it's true that I may be oversimplifying. However, simple
explanations often work the best.

[Cash Works]

RD,

I think your theory goes back to the discussion I started last year about prostitution being the only truely honest way to have sex (or something along those lines).

Sporadic, I personally believe this to be an evolutionary behavior (genetic instinct).

In this modern age, straight forward personal gain through sex (prostitution) is frowned upon so most women (and society as a whole) go through the convoluted process of socially acceptable sexual relations (the dating/marriage game), which ultimatey winds up being far more expensive for the man than hiring a pro when he has the urge.

CW

[Cash Works]

Domino,

Interesting that this type of article only seems to report on women who are "coerced" or kidnapped into prostitution. They never seem to mention all the women who enter the trade of their own choice - one of the comments after the article, however, from a woman in Bulgaria did address this. I can't say I read all of the other comments, though hers was the only one that I saw that acknowledged many prostitutes enter the trade of their own accord.

Some of the comments & the article itself used "economic coersion" as a factor for women entering into prostitution. What's wrong with that? The only reason most people choose to work is "economic coersion". Let's face it, if we didn't need money to live, how many people would bother getting jobs?

Kidnapping women, luring women from their home countries with promises of other sorts of employment and then forcing them into prostitution is definitely wrong & the trafficer of this sort of operation should be hunted down and punished.

Economic Coersion? If she can make $20K/year selling her ass or work in an office/factory for $2K/year (and be forced to provide sexual favors for the bosses in order to keep her job), where is the moral dillema? Prostitution is the way to go.

CW

[Domino]

CW: I am sure coercion is widespread and that there are a lot of tough, bad guys (and women) involved in trafficking that you would not want to cross. The only current inflow/outflow I know are Thailand/Philippines <--> Japan and the little I know of that is:

1. Lots of Thai hookers know the money to be made in Japan and they know the downside as in sex slaves etc. I often speak Japanese to them in Bangkok.
2. This is more the case in the Philippines who have a good intelligence network. Many kow what the deal is but as they are young, they probably get screwed over by the yakuza.
3. Lots of Thais and Filippinas married in Tokyo to Japanese guys are hooking as hubby goes out to the work he has been coerced into.
4. I would like to know how big an industry the NGO industry is. Again, I am sure there are lots of good guys out in the trenches. But I know there is a massive gravy train there. If you take, as a neutral example, last year's tsunami collections. I would like to see independently audited accounts of how all that money was spent and why the WHO needed so many new 4WDs to flit around Sri Lanka etc. It is like the sex slave trafficking business: because no one can morally oppose them they have to be suspect. Hard figures from a neutral source would help. But the big players are not neutral: theur jobs depend on exposing and milking all of this.

[Sporadic]

Domino: Bingo forum mate.

There are do-gooders and PROFESSIONAL do-gooders.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

The nonprofit do-gooder sector is an industry just like any other, and there are excesses and abuses in the same way there are in the for-profit sector. And, yes, the media loves to highlight the CEOs who are pulling in big bucks. In general, though, workers in the nonprofit sector are vastly underpaid compared to their for-profit counterparts. In Califronia, for example, someone who runs a for-profit company with revenues between 5 and 9 million a year makes around $200k per year, not counting stock options, etc., that nonprofits can't match, whereas someone running a same-size nonprofit would make around $90k.

I've spent time doing hiring for nonprofits, and there are plenty of possible candidates from the for-profit sector who end up bowing out because the bottom line is that they would have to take truly a massive cut in pay to do essentially the same job in the nonprofit world. In the 90s I helped with a study, for example, of people who ran nonprofit artist-run organizations. We looked at a couple hundred, and the average director of such an organization had a masters degree and made around $22,000 a year while working around 60 hours a week. By and large these people burned out and left at a tremendous rate, and were replaced by people who went into the same situation and did the same thing. People at the lower rungs feel it even more -- I know any number of people in non-profits who have worked for the exact same salary for the past five years. Even people with highly technical jobs make substantially less -- any of the lab techs I worked with at the Red Cross could make a third to half-again as much by moving to a for-profit, and in fact during one period there was a staffing crisis in the lab for precisely that reason.

So while, yes, there are abuses, smearing a whole industry of people who generally sacrifice financial gain and time for whatever "cause" they choose to work for is rather like smearing a specific ethnicity for this or that trait -- it's going from the specific to the general without much reason, support, or truth.

[Domino]

Anywhere the UN go - Rwanda, Burundi, East Timor off the top of my head - the hotel and other prices (sex included) sky rocket. Third World relief is a major industry with all kinds of vested interests in it. And politicians cannot oppose them.
Greenpeace is a good example: my quibble with them is a financial one.
I do not see why the people running the tsunami relief and other gigs morally deserve big financial rewards; it strikes me as perverse to draw down big checks for such work. There is a gravy train and they all want to be aboard. Some, like religious organizations and the Red Cross, have the basic infrastructure in place and should probably be supported. Others are real do gooders. To a lot more, it is a job and a very well paid job without auditing or external checks.

Arts organizations should sink or swim on what they can do themselves. Their game is to get funded from the public bourse and thus the poor (who buy lottery tickets) end up subsidizing the rich (who go to the operas funded by the public funds).

They are only small beans. The big money is on Third World Relief. Because sex slave trafficking and similar stories make good copy, they allow the parasites suck the situation. There is something very immoral in fat cats getting big checks to help people who have no money and no resources.

[Joe Zop]

So the UN is corrupt and so are many of its minions -- what a shock. That hardly means that all the huge numbers of NGOs who work at helping people in distressed places are automatically and by definition also corrupt simply because you haven't looked at their audit materials. There are plenty, such as Doctors Without Borders, who can't be praised highly enough, or a group such as PEOPLink, which works with third world artisans to allow them to promote and market their handicrafts themselves at a fair price as opposed to simply being exploited by companies such as Pier One or Wal-Mart, who do fabulous work. Or localized groups like Thailand's EMPOWER Foundation, which works with women in the sex industry -- not trying to "rescue" them but to give them post-industry skills, and to try to improve their working conditions.

Most foundations who support nonprofits require fund accounting as well as yearly audits from them as proof their money's getting spent as designed. Fund accounting, used by nonprofits to keep track of money coming from different sources, is very restrictive and a major pain. Many require line-item audits, which match up the initially proposed spending of such money with the actual expenditures.

Yeah, that 64 cents of your taxpayer money annually going to the NEA is certainly a major waste. Especially compared to the $6-plus it cost you to pay annually for sexual harrassment settlements from the military. Or compared to the huge amounts taxpayers end up paying for football or baseball stadiums so rich owners won't take their toys and move away. Or compared to the $150 billion or so taxpayers have paid for farm subsidies over the past decade, large portions of which has been given to huge corporations or folks like David Rockerfeller, Bob Dole, Ted Turner, Scottie Pippin, Birch Bayh and Kenneth Lay.

Yup, Third World relief can be a big can of pork. But that doesn't automatically mean that everything in the can is pork -- there are a lot of organizations who work in the trenches with little money, down in the dirt, right beside some of the big boys in new cars. I know a lot of those folks, and they don't make doodly-squat. If you want to smear, kindly be specific.

Fucking women who are coerced into prostitution is not something I'm in the least interested in, so I'm quite happy to have it be an issue. I'm obviously not happy that it becomes the only way prostitution is looked at, but that's rather typical of the United States' tendency to see the world only in terms of black and white as opposed to other places understanding of grays. But Christian religious organizations such as the International Justice Mission are the biggest pains in the ass, presuming that everyone who's a sex worker is there because they've been forced, and proceeding to "liberate" them whether they want it or not.

[Sporadic]

JoeZ:
There are plenty, such as Doctors Without Borders, who can't be praised highly enough,Sorry, on this one, I cannot remain mute. I researched how NGO´s spend their money before donating (try the make a wish foundation, VERY low overhead) and I supported Doctors without borders for over ten years. I was forced to withdraw my support when, a couple years ago they eliminated their charter requirement to not take any political positions.

The strength of that group was always its single-minded concern for health care, anywhere. When they decided to get politically active, they lost some opportunities to help, some nations restricted activities, others refused entry.

I agree it is not good to paint everyone with the same brush, but my opinion is that many NGO´s have become too big and lost the grassroots.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

Well, we differ here, as I personally agreed with Doctors Without Borders' position on, for example, linking humanitarian aid with military operations in Afghanistan and I've got no problem with their position on availability of cheap HIV/AIDS drugs. Regardless of the charter issue, they've pretty much always taken the same position -- that anyone or any country that interferes with humanitarian aid or rules of conduct that protect civilians should be criticized. I'm fine with that. And I know a number of doctors who've put in a lot of time for them and who have done a lot of good. I also like the fact that they alone among all the relief organizations actually told people to stop sending them money for tsunami relief because they had enough, and to send it instead for some of their other projects. (Naturally, they were roundly criticized for this by other groups.)

I don't disagree that there are NGOs who've gotten too big and lost touch with their mission. I simply object to painting everyone with the same brush, especially since there are far more small ones who operate on a wing, a prayer, and lots of sweat, than there are large ones with the staff driving fancy new cars.

[Sporadic]

JoeZ,

I think you make my point precisely. While you may agree with their positions (MSF) not everyone will. I feel they were more effective when they took an agnostic stance towards politics. Small point I admit, but when so many "charites" have serious (even hidden) political agendas, it can be important. To me anyway.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Daddy Rulz]

I've been following this post with interest and it remindes me of M Crieghton (sp) new book "State of Fear" though that's about enviromental issues not humanitarian relief. Joe, Sporadic and Domino from reading your posts you might enjoy the book.

Thanks for the debate, you guys are a great example of how gentlemen should disagree and discuss.

[Cash Works]

JZ, et al,

I have to agree that I'm not interested in having sex with a woman who is "forced" to be there. My comments were about the term "Economic Coersion". Just to make sure that I wasn't misunderstanding the term, I pulled out the dictionary & looked up "Coerce" - "Force" was used in each example of the definition.

To me, coersion would apply to the girls in the article who were kidnapped or lied to (promises of jobs as models or domestics & then forced into prostitution after their traffickers stole their passports, etc.). As I stated, or tried to, I'm definitely against this sort of thing & these Traffickers should be hunted down and punished severely.

Economic Coersion? Maybe I just don't understand the term. If she sits on the corner with a cup, begging for change, she might be able to buy enough food to survive. If she gets a job working in an office getting fucked by the boss in order to keep her shitty job, she may earn enough to pay rent on her apartment. If she goes into the business & sells her ass to whoever has the cash to pay for it, she earns enough to live comfortably and take care of her family (and if she has any sense, puts some money away or invests). Is that "Economic Coersion"? My experience in the business world (primarily oil & gas, but have many acquaintances in other businesses) seems to be pretty much the same - it all boils down to what you're willing to do for cash. Typically, the lower paid jobs are populated by people who do enough to get by, higher pay by those who take charge of a group (middle management) & highest pay goes to those who take the most risk by working as an idependant contractor for many clients. Seems to me that our entire society is based on Economic Coersion. Or, I may just misunderstand the term.

CW

[Sporadic]

CW, I appreciate your comments, and I agree that there is a big difference between slavery and trying to make what you can, where you can.

To put things in perspective, I , a reasonably private citizen, would be willing to blow Dan Rather on CNN worldwide for 3 million dollars tax free.

For someone who only makes $30 a month, the prospect of bonking old Sporadic for $100 a night does not sound too bad. Particularly since CNN does not cover the event, and I am discreet. Now if I could only get Cristianne Amanpour to join us in a threesome... ;)

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Sporadic]

Daddy Rulz:
are a great example of how gentlemen should disagree and discuss.at least in the case of Joe Z and Domino, they make well reasoned arguments. It is easy to maintain civil debates when the points made are valid and well expressed.

I read the book (aiport time-filler), but thanks for the tip. The poor author did make some new enemies on the left with that one though!

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

Well said, Sporadic -- we certainly don't have to agree (that would be rather boring!) but civil discussion means we can better examine things.

Daddy Rulz, been a very long time since I've read a Crichton book; thanks for the reminder I'm overdue.

And Cash Works, I think most of us would agree with you as far as economic coersion goes. I mean, where exactly does one draw the line at what that would and wouldn't be? Would people go to hotels and clean toilets if they weren't convinced to do so by being given money? Isn't getting someone to do anything that they wouldn't do without being paid coersion?

[Domino]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1484211,00.html

The above link from today's London Observer shows how the British "artistic" community have been scamming big bucks on a very regular basis. I am sure the Third World "helpers" are the same. It is strange that nothing can ever be done about these apparently widespread and flagrant breaches of human rights. I am sure they go on but I am more sure they would be easier to solve if the parasites were not milking the cow so much. I have been told as much by those in the trenches on the front lines in the Philippines.

[Cash Works]

Would people go to hotels and clean toilets if they weren't convinced to do so by being given money? Isn't getting someone to do anything that they wouldn't do without being paid coersion?


Well said, JZ, Thank you! That's pretty much the point I was trying to get across, but I still wonder if people who use the term "Economic Coersion" have some other meaning in mind.

I know a couple of people who are wealthy enough that they don't need to work, but choose to do so because they feel they need the "discipline" of answering to a boss. I know a few others who are truly interested in the work they do & while they're not independently wealthy, they would probably be in the same job if they didn't need the money they're paid. The vast majority of people I know, myself included, work because we need money to survive/pay for our lifestyle...aren't we, of the last group, "Economically Coerced?"

CW

[Joe Zop]

Well, the Observer article makes it very close to imperative that I find a way to go rent "Sex Lives of the Potato Men" which sounds so dreadful I'm sure it's got to be worth seeing simply because it's hilariously bad. Though what British tax abuse has to do with anything I'm not sure -- it's not the "artistic" types who are doing the scamming but the financiers.

CW, considering that every trade sanction is economic coercion, as is a threat against your job unless you do something as ordered, it's not like it's something that's all that black and white in terms of good or bad. The underlying agenda *does* inform the process. Some of the prostitution arguments seem like they're coming from that character in Python's "Search for the Holy Grail" who yells out, "Now we see the violence inherent in the system -- come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" Except that here, those yelling are not involved, repressed (other than perhaps sexually) or affected, which makes it even more absurd.

[Domino]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4584003.stm

Here is a BBC report on the parasite NGO industry in Cambodia. Some amazing figures there. Of course, the parasites have to justify themselves and their rifling of the various cookie jars they have their sticky fingers in. Thiis applies to "artists" as much as it does to NGOs.
We all know that all kinds of sexual and other abuses go on in places like Cambodia. We all feel for people who subsist in shit conditions in China, Indonesia etc making us the Reeboks etc we crave. Most of us - the exceptions know who they are - despise the exploitation of children etc. But: the NGOs have no right to lecture anybody on any of this and the lies they tell do not help those they purport to help. What kind of amoral shithead would drive around Cambodia in a paid for SUV? The answer is one of these parasitic, hypocritical NGO types who regard the tsunami and other other mishaps as being good for their business which is robbing the rich and giving to the poor but taking a sizable chunk off to pay for their pampered lifestyles. Sinecured shitheads. Why do the media etc not run stories on these people. We know the politicians are scared of them but why the media?

[CBGBConnisur]

Some countries have "tolerated" prostitution and have lowered the "costs" making it less profitable for the unsavory elements like pimps and the mafia. I'm in Australia, and in very state in this country, prostitution is legal and common in one way or the other. You will meet college students working part time in brothels who see it as nothing more than a part time job to earn extra income, brothels are legal in all states except Queensland, and except for street prostitution the law generally tolerates it. I have seen the same thing in many Western European countries and Canada. In Germany, the German government itself has constructed red light districts and eros centers, the idea is to keep women from working on the street and give them safer indoor locations which are kept under surveillance by the authorities, to the Germans its better to just tolerate it because some aspects of human nature cannot be changed.

[Daddy Rulz]

Went to a strip club at Kings Cross one time thinking it was dancers like here in the States. Cute girl sits down at the table and starts chatting me up. After a bit she asks if I've ever been here before. When I told her no she lists whats available like a waitress reciting the specials of the day. "70 for a manual, 100 for oral and 150 gets me the lot". I told her thanks but I didn't expect this to be a brothel because it was my first trip to Oz but asked her if I could buy her a drink to chat a bit. The place was empty so she agreed.

We talked for about 20 minutes or so and I'll never forget what she said when I asked her how she got into the life "Well I love to fuck, and I don't have to go with anybody I don't want to and I make money doing it". She went on to say how much she was going to miss it. I asked her if she liked it so well why was she quiting. Her reply "well I'm getting married in a month and it wouldn't be proper to keep doing this after." Turns out her fiancee thought she was waiting tables because she "leaves the house in me blacks and me whites and change here, hes going to wonder why my pay goes down after though"

I found her delightful, charming and intelligent. So much for prostitution forcing women into subjugation.

[CBGBConnisur]

The openess that many Australian women have towards sex have earned them the label of being "immoral", of many nationalities(except certain Europeans) Australian women are more likely to bare their tits in public than just about any other group on the planet. It is indeed true that compared to most Western women, Aussie Sheilas are very fond of sex but calling them immoral is bullshit. A lot of other nationalities like to talk about their "virtues" particularly Asian women, I heard some Thai chick talk about how "immoral" Australian women were, like Thai women are candles of virtue, or whatever the hell that means.

[Rubber Nursey]

Sorry, CBGB, but what you said about the prostitution laws in Australia isn't correct.

In Western Australia, the act of having sex for money is not illegal (nor is it actually legal - there are just no laws that specifically criminalise it). However, pretty much every aspect surrounding prostitution IS illegal (living off the earnings is illegal, girls can't rent an apartment to work from, two girls can't work together, you can 'legally' work in your own home but you need a council permit to do it and there ain't no way the council will ever give you one, etc). Street prostitution is illegal and brothels are illegal. Police 'unoffically' register sex workers like criminals, even though they are committing no criminal offence and brothels are raided and harassed with monotonous regularity.

In Queensland, brothels ARE legal, as are a certain number of private workers. The ACT has similar (but better) regulations. In Victoria, brothels are legal and private workers are registered and monitored like sex offenders. In all three states, street work is illegal.

In New South Wales, sex work is DECRIMINALISED. Brothels are treated like any other business, private workers can work pretty much whenever and however they want and street work is subject to a couple of guidelines (eg. can't work near a school or church, etc) but is otherwise accepted.

The Northern Territory and Tasmania are currently reviewing their laws, but at the moment they are similar to Western Australia's, including the police registers. Brothels are illegal.

Up until recently, South Australia was the only state in Oz where prostitution itself was actually illegal. I have a funny feeling there were moves to change that, though. Brothels are also illegal.

And I'm not sure where you heard that Oz 'lowered the costs' in order to keep out organised crime - in fact, the opposite has happened in states where prostitution is legalised. The licensing conditions in Queensland and Victoria are so strict (and BADLY designed) that they actually ENCOURAGE organised crime involvement, because they are the only people who have the money and the connections to buy their way into the industry. And the Government takes so much money from the legal brothels (is there any other reason why they would legalise sex work in the first place??) that prices are forced UP, not down, to cover costs.

But thanks for all the nice things you said about Aussie chicks - that stuff was ALL 100% CORRECT!! lol :)

[Peaceful]

Hi,

This is my first opinion sharing so I'll try to be brief and not focus on everything so we can debate.

My opinion on prostitution is that, as any other controversial subject, what does not harm others and society shouldn't be forbidden/illegal. As prostitution by itself (the concept of one woman who sells her body to those who buy it) doesn't harm others it shouldn't be illegal - the only reason why prostitution is illegal is because it's considered imoral by the values and standarts of outdated societies where Church and State where closely related, that's where the imorality of prostitution comes from.

There are many factors beside prostitution that are closely related which are and should be illegal but are factors that should be judged independently being some of them:

a) Married people going to the bitches, that should constitute a crime because someone who is married is linked to a contract where you accepted to have sex only with your wife. (Most of the times) It was your choice to get married in the first place. This is a matter outside of prostitution.

b) Kidnaping or forcing someone to have sex for money, which is punible by law too

c) Using minors since some or mostly of them has no free will nor clear judgement.

So, prostitution is illegal because it's imoral due to standarts of Church, Church which condemn pleasure in sex, bigamy, poligamy, homosexual relations, and everything that was related to sex for reasons that I'm not fully aware of. In this modern society I think that Church hasn't a great impact anymore. So, let individuals do whatever they want until they start to harm others, law shouldn't be to restrict just to restrict, there should be some sense in it and I don't see sense in turning prostitution illegal.

[Sporadic]

Peaceful
a) Married people going to the bitches, that should constitute a crime because someone who is married is linked to a contract where you accepted to have sex only with your wife. (Most of the times) It was your choice to get married in the first place. This is a matter outside of prostitution. Contract? Do you mean pre-nup? ;)

Marriage is a recognized civil state in most countries. Yes, adultery is a crime, again, in most places, but if you want to talk about our-of-date concepts, remember originally this was to ensure proper paternity and passing on of property.

By the way, sex between unmarried persons is illegal in many, many places.

Your other two points are well understood and supported almost universally.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Peaceful, we also try make a real effort to avoid the B*tch word. Unless of course we refer to a canine.

[Dickhead]

Marriage is a contractual relationship under common law (the system upon which US law is based) regardless of whether or not there is a pre-nup.

[Peaceful]

Yes, that was what I meant, the same happens in my country.

Sporadic, yes there are many theories trying to explain the origins of marriage, and the one that I agree most is the one you mentionated (mechanisms to create legitimate childs and ensure they get the heredities, etc) but I wasn't trying to discuss the morality of marriage because if I was then I would say how outdated I think it is.

This might not be accurate as I'm speaking what I remember I saw on TV but not a long time ago a catholic judge that was appointed by the President of EU comission Durão Barroso as a high importance person in the juridic department of EU said something like "Homosexuality is sin but not crime, and all that matters to me is crime". The same applies to prostitution. In the eyes of Church sex outside of marriage is considered sin, but there isn't any logical reason for making it crime. The criminization of prostitution is not racional, only moral.

PS: About the b**ch term okay I will try not to forget that. What are the right terms? SW, pro (from prostitute or provider?), AMP and escort?

[Sporadic]

Peaceful:
that should constitute a crime because someone who is married is linked to a contract where you accepted to have sex only with your wife. (Most of the times) It was your choice to get married in the first place. This is a matter outside of prostitution.and then
sex outside of marriage is considered sin, but there isn't any logical reason for making it crime. The criminization of prostitution is not racional, only moral.Am I being thick here? Am I a bad guy for going outside matrimony for sex now and then, or for going to prostitutes for this sex? Both? Neither?

Personally, seeking gratification without the serious emotional treachery of an illicit affair is what P4P is all about.

You can look in the FAQ for the banned words. There are only two or three, and the rationale is that they are by definition degrading.

DH
Marriage is a contractual relationship under common law (the system upon which US law is based) regardless of whether or not there is a pre-nup.I guess you did not notice my tongue firmly in cheek when mentioning the pre-nup. ;)

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rock Dog]

Sporadic,

Bingo! You got a bullseye when you mentioned the following.... Personally, seeking gratification without the serious emotional treachery of an illicit affair is what P4P is all about.

That's exactly it! Has anyone ever noticed the difference in men's and women's reactions to the whole p4p thing? Men will usually give a little look of disapproval and say something like "no way I'd ever do that". Usually for their woman's benefit ( especially if she's standing right there!)

Try ask the average woman what she thinks. They HATE it! Why? Because it represents exactly what sporadic was calling it.... an easy way to get some gratification without the serious emotional treachery of an illicit affair. Because it's so easy, it reduces our dependence on them for sex, thereby reducing their level of control over us.

Just my rant for today,

Rock

[Chocha Monger]

In 3rd such case, judge nabbed for solicitationThe Associated Press
Updated: 9:11 a.m. ET June 17, 2005STOCKHOLM, Sweden - A Swedish judge has been fined for soliciting prostitutes, the third such case to rock the country's legal system in little more than a year, a prosecutor said Friday.
The judge, who was not identified by name, has admitted to trying to buy sex from three prostitutes at an illegal bordello that posed as a tanning salon in Malmo, southern Sweden, prosecutor Mats Svensson said.

Last month, in another highly publicized case, a Supreme Court judge was fined after admitting he solicited a male prostitute. And last year, a judge on the Malmo District Court went into early retirement after admitting he bought sex from a prostitute.

Sven-Erik Alhem, director of the Public Prosecution Authority, said Thursday that the three cases added up to "a disaster for the confidence in the justice system."

"It's deeply worrying now that it's several cases," Alhem told newspaper Expressen. "It can lead to a mistrust of all of us who work in the justice system."

Buying Is Illegal

Buying sexual favors is illegal in Sweden, although it is legal to sell them.

In the latest case, the judge solicited sex during a phone call to the salon, but the purchase was not completed because he was unable to get to the salon before closing time, Svensson said.

"The salon closed at eight, and he couldn't get in to Malmo in time," Svensson said. "That's the only reason it didn't happen."

The judge agreed to pay a 21,000 kronor ($2,741) fine, but will keep his job on a district court in southern Sweden.

Svensson said 67 people were suspected of soliciting prostitutes at the salon, of which 23 have admitted to doing so.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press.

[Rock Dog]

Chocha,

I read your post with a great deal of interest. It seems to fit in with a pattern that I have noticed over the last few years.

What I've noticed is that men who achieve above average status usually exhibit some very consistent behavioral patterns. One, they seek to maintain this status. Two, they become very territorial. Three, they almost inevitably use their status to have sex with a wide variety of women.

There is a strong correlation between status level and the number of women a guy can get. Movie stars, professional athletes, musicians and political leaders would be some good examples of this. So it doesn't surprise me one bit that judges, being high status members of society, would be any different.

There was an escort agency story here a few years ago. They were operating without a proper licence and the whole business was just a front for high class prostitution. Of course, everybody knew it at the time. Eventually they got busted. It just so happened that they kept pretty good records of their "business transactions", including client names and credit card numbers. Guess what? Lot's of high status members of society including judges, lawyers, doctors, school principals and various high ranking members of the municipal government.

It all reeks of hypocrisy! They say prostitution is a bad thing. Then they turn around and make full use of it when they think nobody is watching.

The truth is this. A normal, healthy man needs variety. Nobody should be surprised when they go out and get it.

Rock

[Deep Wet]

prostitution is often a inequitably misunderstood word! to most of
us, prostitutes are exclusively sex workers.

in its true meaning, prostitution is the "selling of one's honor". so
befittingly, a prostitute can be a professional – let's say – who
take bribes to compromise or shirk his duties. a prostitute is the
ordinary person who compromises on virtues and honor for monetary
gains or in kind! he / she could take money to stand as false witness
or to hush-up! it could be somebody who takes money to frame another.
or he could be an assassin! these are the prostitutes of the world
and they hail from all corners of society.

the bible for instance makes reference to the "great prostitute" in
the book of revelation. obviously this refers to the "great
corrupter" of mankind and not a supreme fucker whom you wait in line
to pay $1,000 to have mind-blowing sex with. so there are many
prostitutes amongst us and perhaps on par in numbers, if not
exceeding, the number of sex workers. are you a prostitute?

as for sex workers, they can be considered as being in the personal
service industry. service obviously pertains to sex. are they in the
right or in the wrong? neither, i guess, as they are just humans like
any of us. i personally have seen the humanism in some of them and
have been a recipient of sincere kindness and hospitality from sex
workers. it wasn't that i was patronizing their services but rather
when as a youngster, i needed help from strangers and they were the
ones who answered. on the other hand, i got quite a dressing-down
when i asked a "priest" (no not a christian one) for 40 cents.

sex workers have hearts too. perhaps humility has taught them so much
as against wealth making some of us arrogant, degenerated and
oblivious. i don't discriminate sex workers. in fact i have respect
for them and at times sympathize with them!

there is honor in the sex service too! firstly they don't force
themselves upon you against your will. robbers and kidnappers do.
most of them earn an honest (albeit illegal) living. they rarely hide
the fact that they are sex workers. we have our scruples and values
and they have theirs. is just that theirs may be different – as with
some of our priorities are different.

selling sex, though illegal in many countries, is not a heinous
crime. they don't cut you up because they want your wallet. they
don't drop bombs on you while you sleep. sex workers hail from
different backgrounds and causes for choosing such a profession can
differ from person to person. most of them are "victims of
circumstances". some are lured into it while some are tricked and
some are forced. some see it as a sure way of getting out of abject
poverty. a good number of them willfully chose this profession.

just as you have humans diving into the sewer to unclog it,
sanitation workers who take care of filth, cadaver collectors and
funeral directors who take care of human "carcasses". they make life
better for us for without them, we have to co-exist with ever-
mounting filth.

sex workers serve the clientele who at least have a place to go where
they can have their sex – either as a side adventure or for plain
relief. there is no need to let our animal selves go out and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)
women for sex services are available.

why do people derogatorily "brand" sex workers as "prostitutes"
and "illegitimate" children as "bastards"? yet they use such services
and constantly produce such children. shouldn't there be a mark of
appreciation instead?

some sex workers are nymphomaniacs. they reckon to themselves, why
should they do it for free when they can get paid and still enjoy it.
furthermore they can also choose their clients. some women fell like
they are their husband's exclusive prostitute. after all, he puts the
food on the table, hardly talk to her and mount her each time he
feels like it. on top of that, she cannot have other man if she so
desires, expected to bear him children and care for them as well as
put up with the occasional abuse. then there is the housework,
cooking and cocking! instead of a prostitute, she may feel more like
a sex slave - since prostitutes are paid and she is not! why does she
take all this shit? well because he takes care of her (and the family
he created) by providing a home and the necessities that come with it.

so, it just a question of finances? now, why can't she be independent
and not allow herself to be "owned" by any man. via prostitution, she
has her sex and still can earn a lucrative income and she can take
care of herself – minus his children and abuses! what about morals,
values and decorum? "well, i am not hurting anyone but myself". now,
does that make practical sense? you can expect that a good measure of
these sex workers are downright practical and smart women.

sex workers are on level ground as women especially if they lack
looks, education and wealth. they contend with the fact that they
still have a decent pussy as compared to the lady doctor, accountant
etc. and can feel not shortchanged or deprived! she appreciates that
she also has something of "universal demand and monetarily value"!

so why can't society be respectful of sex workers? why can't men who
use their services be respectful and appreciate them for what they
do? in fact, it's us that need our morals and values scrutinized.
are we bigots and prejudicial that we compartmentalize and brand
humans? where did i hear that famous saying: "let he who has not
sinned cast the first stone"?

on the downside, sex workers may receive constant harassment,
mockery, degrading jibes and snares of disapproval from the public at
large. if it's illegal they get harassed by the authorities and are
victimized by corrupt officials. they risk bodily harm each time they
ply their routes or accept a customer's offer. they risk getting
murdered by deranged people who see them as easy prey. all of jack
the ripper's victims were sex workers.

they get harassment from violent and blood-sucking pimps. if they are
freelancers, they still can get harassment from their competitors'
pimps. ultimately, they run high risk of contracting fatal diseases
especially when customers refuse to use protection.

usually when they pray to god, they ask for understanding and
forgiveness. how many of you ask for things instead? when you want
your kids to pass exams, get somebody who is dying to become well –
no matter if he has been a sob all along. some ask to strike the
lottery or a high paying job to ease their financial woes. "i know i
am a sinner – but please grant me this one request"!

prostitution is also a phd that acts like a lowlife!

who's the prostitute now?

[James D 2004]

Paying for sex, is it moral? It dawned on me that I have never seen arguments for or against. Maybe the discussion about this was closed soon after the thread started.

Are there religion references to prostitution and the morality of it? I don't know.

From the natural selection viewpoint, even apes developed very different form of societies in term of sex. In general in the animal kingdom, some pair up for life, some only pair up briefly during mating, some try to spread their sperms as much as possible, and some have sex with everyone else. And men invented money. And men specializes. So prostitution could be a rather natural thing to do. And if intelligent design were true, what would be the morality of it?

The least I want to do is try to argue about the morality of prostitution, but I expect arguments like this if I do.

Given that prostitution isn't going to go away, what do we do? The US system is a bit immoral in a way - that girls cannot choose to work in safe brothels (except for a few counties in NV). Cracking down on them drives them to work harder and take more risks. When SW are caught, their money on them and in their cars are taken. Legalization is also a bit immoral - that more girls are tempted to enter into the profession, which is a bad profession in many ways leaving the morality aside. And you have no way to get rid of your neighbor who is a prostitude. It's hell to bring up a family with that.

With systems across the spectrum across the world, from the everything goes in Japan to the everybody does that in Thailand, to the ultra conservatism in USA, we can learn good lessons in dealing with prostitution. Say if you legalize prostitution, you almost solve the problem of illegal trafficking of women. If you allow the stripper to do what they want, the price will become reasonable, the need for several MPs around each strip club is much reduced. Japan can, but doesn't, import a lot of Asian women.

So in discussing anything other than the morality of paying for sex itself, we are talking about problems and solutions, social studies, social experiments. Therefore I would have started a thread called the Social Science of Prostitution if I could. But actually I can start a thread in USG, so I did. But I think a thread here would be more appropriate as people from across the world can contribute.

[James D 2004]

Competition - E European girls are all over W Europe. I have used the agency Euro hostess, based in Europe, for a Czech girl in LA. E Euro girls are easy to find on and off the net, but I don't know the percentage of the market. You should know. If you don't know anything, you may not even break even. That comes to the 2nd point.

Knowledge - if you do not have local knowledge, it's not easy. Where to advertise? Where to set up shop? The law? If you are thinking to bring them to Thailand, don't, don't bring them anywhere.

Is it worth it? It's worth it for them, but not you. In LA a grand each a day for several month, half of it for you is worth the trouble. But the risk is a lot higher. If you are thinking of making friends and helping them out, that's OK. But just take a smaller cut. The risk of being busted as a pimp, and that they will take advantage of you will be lower. That's also help with the morality bit.

You are vulnerable. There's no guarantee that they will honor your cut, or they will even pay back the tickets and rent. You can not do anything about that.

[Sporadic]

dirk,

well, you asked...

1. if you are bringing ladies to a place for prostitution, in exchange for a % of their income from this business, you are de facto and de jure, a pimp. as an extra bonus, you are also now a human trafficker!

2. the standard way to ensure you are getting your cut, and that they don´t run away, is to confirep001e their passports. obviously, you will need to schedule their appointments (so as to keep your eye on the money) so it may take a rather large proportion of your time.

my take, it is not a great idea. i appreciate the hypocrisy of my statement as i have availed myself of providers who had to "pay a cut" to a "boss."

having said that, ask yourself if being a slave owner, human trafficker, and pimp is a good career move on moral grounds?

i sincerely suggest you watch the movie "lilja 4-ever." not exactly the circumstances you describe, but it may open your eyes a bit.

after knowing many, many working ladies, i personally would not want to be involved any more than i already am. lame moral excuse, i know, but it is all i have.

cheers,

sporadic

[Piper1]

Dirk - Sporadic and James make some good points. Let me add my POV.

Interesting timing. I had drinks with a good Dubai mate the other night (married guy - family overseas). We'd mongered together a couple of times before, but he has just revealed to me that for the past few months, he has a WG semi-living with him as a GF, and she wants to move in full-time. She is also trying to get him to "sponsor" a few girls into Dubai. He knows I have some understanding of the economics and psychology of the WG profession here, so he asked me to be part of it. (I have also been asked many times by WGs to bring girls and organize them, for a cut). The immediate answer has always been a definite “no”. Why?

Morality?: It can be argued that if you don’t do it, someone else will anyway, plus the girls will be working anyway. (Sporadic has addressed morality issues already).

Morality aside, there’s a big difference between enjoying the company and sex with the WGs, and being in a working relationship with them. Sure, there’s some short-term money to be made. But do you want to make a few thousand quick dollars in return for being enmeshed in the industry forever? If so, be prepared to deal with the police, as well as threats by customers, competing pimps and other WGs. It’s not a clean business, and is full of desperate people, some of them with little value for life.

Dirk, If you are a peacenik, you are also easy prey. It is not an industry for "nice guys". The WGs who want you for your “clean” status in society will charm you (that's their expertise, remember), but in the end, it’s the money that counts. If you cross them (even if they *think* you crossed them), take care. I’ve helped a few girls out of prison in the past, and the thanks I got were nice, but the threats from “mysterious phone calls” (pimps and customers of the gals) when I eventually refused to continually bail them were not so nice. Luckily I lived a wild life a few years ago (mixing with some "not so nice" people), and made some connections with guys who could deal with the threats on my behalf. Keep life simple my friend.

Also, due to the nature of their work (and sometimes their personalities) many WGs are drama queens, and their small problems escalate into big problems, dragging in everyone within gravitational pull, like a black hole. (Sporadic and I both know this first-hand). You don't often see this side of them as a customer, where it's all good sex and good laughs, until you've been with them a few times and they start to form an attachment. Nowadays, before this can happen, I disengage and move on. (Nowadays I have a family to care for first).

And keep in mind that you would not be "helping" the gals much anyway – only a small percentage of them make good money in the long term – most of it goes on fines, bribes, flights and payments to bosses. Any cash left over tends to be spent quickly on clothes, perfumes and many unnecessary consumables. They seem not to be able to handle the sudden "big salary". They tend to "live for the day". Befrore they know it, they are back in their home country with little to show for their relatively well-paid months or years of work, often with their reputations back home in tatters, so it's difficult for them to find legit work, husband etc.

A lot more I could say, but you get the idea. Also, just my point of view. My points don't apply to all WGs, but I think it's safe to say it applies to most.

Cheers

Piper

[Sporadic]

dirk (and the rest of you as well!)

if you are living in e. europe, you can appreciate the circumstances many of these ladies face.

let me add some first hand reality to this "pimping."

a large % of wg´s i have dealt with, and have spoken about the business, explained things this way.

yes, there are seriously exploited women.

and yes, most of them choose to travel knowing full well what they are doing. they have seen a recently returned girl from the hometown, who has money, gold, nice clothes etc. they want a little of that action.
this is where pride comes in, and the returnee does paint a possibly rosy picture of what goes on, in the interest of not looking too stupid themselves.

those that indeed did make good money, some return, eyes wide open, fully aware of the risks, for more money. indeed some turn into pimps, paving the way for these provincial girls into the business in places like the gulf.

others, vow to return home and spread the word far and wide that it is a bottomless pit. pay the rent, eat, clothes (yes, quite a few do fall into the better lifestyle trap) and can save nothing. all the while hiding like mice from the police and hoping they do not get an out-call customer who is planning a gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) with his four buddies.

morally, who knows where we stand, that is a personal decision, but ethically, i am a good punter. i wonder how it would feel to be a "good" pimp.

i would not cross that line, but then again, you could be "the pimp with the heart of gold."

the practical side of the equation as outlined by piper is another very important factor. do you really want to see, and participate in, the sordid underbelly of society?


what do you all think? will i go to hell if i do this?wrong forum for this question ;)

cheers,

sporadic

[James D 2004]

My suggestions have been on the practical side first. I don't know what they want you for. If for your language skills, you will be holding the phone all day long. If only for your money to pay for the transport and initial rent, then you can easily be taken for a ride.

Your working girl model is rather conventional. At least in USA you can find the youngest (legal), most beautiful, and cleanest who walk the streets. Common to most places, like consumer electronics, the most expansive models don't make money. The same thing in supermarkets, the deli, seafood and steak butcher sections loss money. Most so called higher end escorts don't make much money. That's why they have a day job and can only take one or two each day max. Before they import Central East Europeans, W Europe has already unlimited supply of these escorts. The imported C/E Europeans are better looking, do more and cheaper.

To make big or enough money, you have to work full time, like in an apartment. You have to sell via all channels - high end outcall agencies, busy incall location, and quickies and massages. At least if you want quick money, you need that sort of thing. To the johns, it make little difference whether they are slaves or not. The price is about the same because you just cannot charge a lot more for the same pussy. Even for 'slaves', they are given good incentive in W Europe, USA and other developed world. Often they know what they are getting into. And they work off certain amount of debt. And they get extra for each client and they get to keep the tips. So they behave as any good escorts would, and want you to come back just the same. Telling you their misserable life story doesn't help.

[TweedleD]

It's it twenty four hour a day seven day a week job that involves being a practical psycholigist, nurse maid and ***** slapper.Personally,I think i'd rather keep my day job!

[CBGBConnisur]

Legalizing or politically tolerating the trade definitely has an effect on lowering prices. In some European countries where consumer products like TVs, Playstations, and cars are more expensive than in the US, visiting a hooker and a good one is very cheap. Been to a German FKK? You can have sex with gorgeous women for peanuts.

[Furiouz]

From some young girls in Mexico. It got me thinking, but the risk /reward factor was not in my favor. HOWEVER, what if instead of escorting, the girls stripped? It's legal, danger is minimal, girls still make a pretty penny and there is always work.

Hmmmmm

Cheers

F

[DirkDingy]

SPOTSYLVANIA, Virginia (AP) -- A Virginia sheriff said Friday he will no longer allow detectives to receive sexual services while investigating suspected prostitution.

Spotsylvania County Sheriff Howard Smith made the announcement after his officers spent $1,200 at massage parlors last month and sparked a public outcry.

Smith defended the practice as necessary to obtain a conviction but told his department he was suspending it.

"As sheriff, I understand the feelings and concerns the citizens of this county have expressed," Smith said in a statement on Friday.

"And I empathize with those feelings," he added. "Because of the public's express response, I have suspended this practice."

Court documents show that four times last month, county detectives allowed women at Moon Spa to perform sex acts on them -- once leaving a $350 tip. A total of $1,200 was spent during the visits, Smith said. (Watch the officers that always get their woman -- 2:39)

He said multiple visits were necessary so detectives could build trust with the operators.

Detectives shut down Moon Spa last month. The two suspected operators and three women accused of working there face several charges, including prostitution and sodomy, Smith said.

Smith maintained the sexual contact was necessary to obtain a conviction. But law enforcement officials say undercover officers only need to get an offer of sex for money to move the case forward.

The practice has been used in Spotsylvania since at least 2003.

Earlier this week, Smith told The Washington Post that sexual contact is needed during the investigations because most professionals know not to say anything incriminating. And conversation is difficult, he said, because masseuses at the Asian-run parlors in the northern Virginia county speak little English.

But several members of Spotsylvania's Board of Supervisors have spoken out against the methods used in the investigation.

"All of us ... have been worried about this episode tarnishing the county and making us a laughingstock of the nation," board chairman Henry "Hap" Connors said Friday. "That's why I came out early on and asked the sheriff to cease using these tactics."

Spotsylvania Commonwealth's Attorney William Neely said he respects Smith's decision to end the practice, but refused to apologize for the officers' tactics.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/17/sex.cops.ap/index.html

[Buko Max]

For those of you who break it down to dollars and sense!

http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/11/economics-prostitution-marriage_cx_mn_money06_0214prostitution.html?partner=netscape

[Rock Dog]

Here's a poem, taken from Fred Reed's most excellent website. It was written by a long-time member in the Bangkok scene.

The Silly Old Man with the Young Thai Girl

He must be twice her age at least
With mottled, wrinkled skin
His hair is dyed a bottle-black
His face is wintry thin

Blue veins snake down his bony hands
Like roots of ancient trees
He wears a pair of checkered shorts
Above his scrawny knees.

The girl he’s with is beautiful
Her shoulder-length black hair
Surrounds and frames her dark brown face
Her shoulders soft and bare

He drinks his Mekhong whiskey down
And orders yet again
The girl he’s with just sighs and sneaks
A smile at other men.

They sit in silence, the silly old man
And the girl who stole his heart
Someone should whisper in his ear
“Too many years a part!”

Someone should whisper in his ear
“Your girl is bored to death!
Your eyelids droop, your shoulders stoop
There’s whiskey on your breath!”

Someone should whisper in his ear
That if he didn’t pay
He might just find his lady love
Would soon be on her way.

He wallows in her loving gaze
So puppy-dog serene
Serenity for her of course
His ATM machine.

But he might whisper in our ears
“Well, don’t you think I know?
I made my choice and so will you
With fewer years to go.”

I’m not so sure what to make of him
There is no guiding rule
I wonder if he could be both
A wise man and a fool.

He turns his head to pay the bill
And suddenly I see
It’s a mirror on the wall
The silly old man is me.


I hope you guys enjoyed this poem as much as me.

Rock

[Wanking]

This is a new mainstream movie about a guy with a "sex addiction", who fucks loads of hookers.
Doesnt look like its totally serious, and seems to be an off beat sort of comedy really.

http://www.iamasexaddictthemovie.com/

[HectorG]

What happened to this thread? I was quite enjoying the conversation.

Here in the UK, the government has started equating prostitution with [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) slavery. Advertisements and posters warn punters that by hiring working girls, they are directly funding slavery. Thoughts?

[Buko Max]

Hello Bob,

Yes there is a lot of truth to those ads, not so much in the UK but in countries like China, India, Philippines, etc. it is widely practiced. In the west, it is not as prevalent because it is more difficult to smuggle women. But the reason why this thread is dead is because most mongers would rather just sweep this subject under the carpet and forget about it. If you want to discuss this further, by all means lets do so!

Mattrick

[Starchild2012]

Well...It's all good that the morality issue has come up again...ahhh !! its all over again....we got to remind ourself's that..prostitution is the oldest profession....now that slavery, crime against women has being going on for centuries...do we think that banning prostitution is the solution...

The more you try to supress it,, the more henious it becomes...look at germany and holland..they have regulated prostitution and everything is fine..its just that UK, India, philiphines , USA etc have not come to terms with the realities of this world that we are facing these so called problems on prostituion...

and please guys don't believe UK crap...they are just old dog with a mean age of 56...they are not able to control the migration, islamic fandamentalist are ripping apart their society..yet they are as soft as silk on them....im from india and i know third world mentality....they will just take take take ..never ever give back anything back to the country..just go to any area in east london and ask about osama bin laden and many will tell you very "OPENLY" they support him....

what did the UK goverment did when minorities were showing the placard wriiten "europe you will suffer" on cartoon controversy...fundamentalist have the teeths to show off only in UK not in any other country..not only prostitution, if given to rule the world again, they willl very well say that all women ..should wear "burkha"..in sympathy with their minority sisters.

common guys britain is just too old pig to even eat on itself sooo it goes around were the big bad daddy...bush takes them ....

and, i have just one question to the US..why don't you pick some one of your own size ??

first afganistan, then iraq and now iran..common guys...we know u guys are bullys...but for once...pick some one of your size..for how long you will go around bulying small nations..pick china, india , russia once...then we will have real match on our hands...super duper bowl anyone ?? :)

welll...i know its off topic...and i do not mean to be rasict..but i do not want the west to give even one inch of sysmpathy to the fundamentalist....This crap about protititution slavery..if given enough depth..will find that..it is meant to please the minorities in UK...im sure of it....

No western mind can think prostitution as slavery, clearly the undertone of this kind of statement will have something to do with an eastern mindset....we are incapable of thinking anything on prostitution..atleast the west can come up with some answers and solution....but please no banning stuff..we here have enough of it...if you guys go the banned way....then you giving up to the fundamentalist be it the muslims, christians or hindus....

guys ...if done enough research on this statement from UK....the background might very well be either the cause of minority relations or religious fundamentalism...may be christian or muslims or hindus or budhists....

never a cool dude....forward thinker will come up with such statements...he will try to find ways to get a solution not ban it...what will you do ??

[Buko Max]

Born Loser 5,

You start to make some good points about the subject but you quickly digress into a lot of nonsense. What does politics have to do with it? We are talking about human nature here. Under no circumstances will I discuss politics on this board. Heck I can't even agree with my friends and family on the subject let alone some punter from cyberspace. Yes you are very off topic.

It is well documented that people are not only sold into slavery(prostitution) but even born into it. Places like India, Pakistan, Nepal, etc. have 3rd and 4th generations of families in the business. Thats all for now, I have to go.

Excelsior,

Mattrick

PS: Help me out here Bob

[Starchild2012]

NOTHING...has anyone ever being able to do anything for the sake of others to the extent of going beyond one's call...no one....but i can remember one name for today... jesus christ, and the last time i read da vinci code, he married a prostitute called magdalene....now where would a normal mortal like an ISG monger would get that much power and sacrifice to lift a ***** to the leval of divinity...

What i can do or what we all can do is just except the fact of this world..and that is ..it is an evil, eveil, horrible, horrible place to be...and we can only hope and pray that jesus comes again and saves us all...we can do as much we can...but not try to change this world..not to the extent of being fanatical to get rid of the evil of this world in one day...


now what we gonna do..ssuppose tommarow all slavery(prostitutes) are saved from this earth....whats next...how are we going to save women from drunkun, insurance driven husbands or for that matter the other way around...even in todays worlds marriages are not perfect we got like 50 percent divorce rate and some 20 percent domestic abuse ..and even if we save all the marriages from this planet earth...what about the horrible horrible deseases of mankind....what about proverty, education, water problem , old age and last of all death.....why stop at prostitutes..why can't we just go and find a way to conquer death it self or better find a pill to kill this hunger..then all our problems will be over in one day.....

Loser.

[Rock Dog]

Born(again?)Loser5,

Awesome post! You are speaking from the heart with lots of emotion. I respect when someone does that. I also agree 100% that there's SO many bigger problems locally and in the world in general. Yet, these armchair do-gooders still find time to get worked up over the fact that someone out there might be getting laid because they PAID for it. Big fucking deal!

It's funny because you get these BIG-TIME crooks like the folks at Worldcom and Enron etc. who ruined the lives of thousands of people. You get genocides like in Darfur where more thousands of black people are being pushed of their land and killed by arabs.... and where are these same do-gooders? Hell, they're too busy chasing after illicit sexually activity.... kind of makes you wonder why they're so obssessed with it. Who's the REAL pervert? Sometimes I wonder.

One other thing, this whole DaVinci code business. What a load of crap. People on both sides debating whether Jesus survived or not. Whether he had offspring or not. The real truth is that this whole religion thing is the biggest scam ever. There's not one shred of GENUINE evidence to prove that such an individual ever really existed. If you aren't too scared of this possibility, go to the following website... www. jesusneverexisted. com
and try to have an open mind. There are 2 excellent books on this topic as well.... The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur (a Christian minister no less) also, The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.

I guarantee you'll never again look at things the same way.

Rock

[Starchild2012]

RockDog,

You ROCK man, You are absolutely correct, I couldn't agree more... why are these so called do gooders after us, when all we do is go out and PAY for some pleasure in a perfectly sane way....is that a big deal ?? as you said there are bigger problem in this world than pay for pleasure and caring about prostitutes thing...

I think ..thinking of being doing too good to the world is insane.

As you mentioned about enron and darfur..what have these organisations and authorities have done so far....millions are getting crushed everyday from the power of the biggies and yet nothing has being done so far and in the end we all are on ourselfs...

Dan brown made his millions and left others to fight amoung themselves for christs sake ....smart man indeed....:)

The site is well researched and i think if we conclude on that also, it takes us no where, jesus or no jesus, I believe in fact of the world and that is it would remain the same let one millons perish for the good or evil...the nature has its way of doing things..it does not care of what we think....or what we want...its her world and she does it how she may please to do it....

Thanks mate for now i'm aware, im not the only one, who can think against the so called do-goody "system"

Loser.

[Rubber Nursey]

Reinforcing the message that prostitution is slavery is part of an American Government initiative to completely abolish prostitution all around the world. Some time ago, the US President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR), which distributes money to NGOs in America and around the world, began forcing those agencies to sign an "anti-prostitution pledge requirement" in order to continue recieving that money. The gag order prevents NGOs in receipt of PEPFAR funds from talking about - and addressing - harm-reduction strategies that are politically contentious in the United States, including needle-exchange, abortion and prostitution. Any agency that supports sex workers and the choices they are making, is considered to be "promoting prostitution".

The US Government makes no distinction between sex work and sex slavery. In it's eyes, there is none. The thought that some men and women might CHOOSE to be a sex worker and, God forbid, actually ENJOY it, is abhorrent to them. Therefore, it simply refuses to see that as a possibility. It MUST be sex slavery - those men and women MUST be being forced against their will. Unfortunately, there are all too many people in countries all around the world who agree with that premise and they are all too eager to jump on the US bandwagon.

Sex slavery exists. It always has and, unless some pretty radical changes are made by Governments around the world, always will. Of course, due to the nature of it, it often coexists alongside prostitution. But it is NOT prostitution. 'Voluntary' sex work is a business. Sex slavery is a crime. No self-respecting sex worker or brothel owner would ever condone sex slavery. And yet, the media and Governments refuse to separate the two, so in the eyes of society, ordinary sex workers and brothel owners can only be seen as either victims of sex slavery, or the perpetrators of it.

[Trixer]

Poverty is the worst form of violence.

Mahatma Gandhiji

[VilunyaChert]

Reinforcing the message that prostitution is slavery is part of an American Government initiative to completely abolish prostitution all around the world. Some time ago, the US President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR), which distributes money to NGOs in America and around the world, began forcing those agencies to sign an "anti-prostitution pledge requirement" in order to continue recieving that money.

I'm very pleased to be able to report that this week Judge Victor Marrero of the US District Court for the Southern District of New York issued a preliminary injunction against enforcement of the gag order against two NGOs that had brought suit in his court. It's a small bit of comforting news, and I fear it won't last, but it's something.


Sex slavery exists. It always has and, unless some pretty radical changes are made by Governments around the world, always will. Of course, due to the nature of it, it often coexists alongside prostitution. But it is NOT prostitution. 'Voluntary' sex work is a business. Sex slavery is a crime. No self-respecting sex worker or brothel owner would ever condone sex slavery. And yet, the media and Governments refuse to separate the two, so in the eyes of society, ordinary sex workers and brothel owners can only be seen as either victims of sex slavery, or the perpetrators of it.
And what the ratbastards in the US federal government (I'll let you speak for your own ratbastards :) ) and various local governments--I'm thinking particularly of state and city governments in Waterbury, Connecticut, and Providence, Rhode Island, USA, who are close to home for me--constantly do, DELIBERATELY, is fill the newspapers after every bust of an Asian massage parlor brothel with UNSUBSTANTIATED and UNSUBSTANTIABLE (because false) claims of sex slavery. Yes (as you say), there *is* sex slavery, and there have been well-justified busts of genuine sex slavers in New York, southern California, and so forth. But all the cases in my neck of the woods, as far as I can tell, are prostitution pure and simple. The United States already has laws on the book against slavery. Hell, we even have a constitutional amendment against slavery. *If* the brothel-keepers are slaving, then why are they not arrested and brought to justice on those charges? Anti-slavery laws have been used successfully (although far too rarely) against gangs that have enslaved migrant farm workers in the southeastern US, and even (although even more rarely) against middle-Eastern minor royalty who have enslaved maidservants from the Phillipines and elsewhere.

The deliberate conflation of sex-slavery with prostitution is a cynical ploy by the sick and slimy puritan wowsers who infest my country.

[Rock Dog]

Those bullshitters will say anything to push their own moral agenda down our throats.

What pisses me off the most is that half of them make regular use of the things that they'd deny everyone else. There's a girls that I see every now and then who told me the name of a judge right here in town..... he pays her for sex every week or so. I'd like to be there to see that hypocrite when he sentences some guy to John School for doing the same thing he does.

I just wish we could all get over our sex hang-ups and just have a good time.

Pardon me but I'm gonna go get stoned on some good opium..... and maybe tomorrow I'll pick out a girl I like and have some good dirty fun. Fuck you all you bible thumping, John Law hypocrites.

Rock

[Rubber Nursey]

Trixer: Absolutely. According to an ad that's currently appearing on our TV screens here, 70% of the world's poorest people are women. Prostitution is, for many women (obviously not all), a viable means of escaping poverty. Decriminalising sex work - and making the sex industry a legitimate form of employment for migrants and/or foreign visitors on working visas - would give many women around the world a chance to pull themselves and their children out of these desperate financial situations. Instead, Governments fine and incarcerate sex workers, increasing their personal debts and decreasing their chances of ever obtaining 'respectable' employment in the future.


Vilunya (welcome back to the Rest Of The World :) )

I'm very pleased to be able to report that this week Judge Victor Marrero ...issued a preliminary injunction against enforcement of the gag order against two NGOs that had brought suit in his court.

I HAD heard that and I'm very glad for the two agencies involved. Unfortunately, an American court ruling that the American Government denying an American NGO American funds is a violation of the American Constitution, won't help the other countries around the world who rely on that funding. :( The saddest thing is that those countries include some of the highest risk sex industries in the world. Dubya should be ashamed of himself.


And what the ratbastards in the US federal government (I'll let you speak for your own ratbastards :) ) and various local governments...constantly do, DELIBERATELY, is fill the newspapers after every bust of an Asian massage parlor brothel with UNSUBSTANTIATED and UNSUBSTANTIABLE (because false) claims of sex slavery.

Our ratbastards are no different to yours. :) Some reporters blatantly LIE and say straight out that these women are kept as sex slaves - but most just HINT at it and the community hears what the reporters want them to hear. They describe the workers as 'Japanese/Thai/Korean nationals' or 'Asian students' or 'illegals' (even if they're not) and they are almost always referred to as 'girls', not women (to make them sound more vulnerable). The Asian brothels are always run by 'syndicates', the girls always speak 'little or no English' and much is made about the fact that they work seven days a week and sleep in the same bed that they work in. They are always 'discovered' or 'uncovered' (or other similar words that make you picture 15 Asian girls found locked in a cupboard) during 'raids' (not routine police visits) and the Dept of Immigration is always 'called in to deal with' the girls (confirming that they are illegals). This is usually followed by some general comment about the 'seedy underbelly of society' that is Perth's sex industry.

What the newspapers fail to print is that the Dept of Immigration grab these 'sex slaves', put them in detention and generally deport them within 24 hours - for working contrary to their visas. The 'syndicates' who hired them are inconvenienced for a short while until they replace their workers, but aren't charged with anything, because they didn't commit a crime. (And if they DID commit a crime, nobody would know anyway, because the victims have already been deported!)

I'm not sure whether its all a ploy to make us think that the Government cares about the welfare of women, or as a means of justifying their new sex slavery laws or just another way to slander the sex industry and incite anger towards sex workers and brothel owners (or all of the above), but it sure as hell aint stopping sex slavery!! As with all their ridiculous, uninformed laws, all this does is push REAL sex slaves further underground, where nobody will ever be able to find them.

[Sinanju Master]

Before I ever frequented a house of "erotic professionals" I DID NOT KNOW of their complexities. After several years of lurking on this particular board and contributing to another, I feel I can say that the "need" to abolish prostitution is a need for control. That control is sought by the bible-thumping hypocrites who are more than likely draining their nut sacks in an erotic professional instead of their wives. Think about the religious purpose of its outright ban: removing a financial avenue for many women who may otherwise have none, since, in Biblical times, a woman was mere chattel and earning money on the up and up was extremely difficult if not impossible. The woman controls something the man can NOT. ALL the major religions decree that a man must lord over the woman. (Good luck on that! LOL) Prostitution is something that, if a woman is not married (a form of slavery in those times, in my opinion) can engage in and CONTROL without the permission of a man AND do well for herself. The difference between sex SLAVERY and prostitution is that the first party is doing it under duress and against her will. That doesn't make for a fun coupling AT ALL. After reading the last few posts on this particular board, I'm SERIOUSLY considering becoming a private investigator in order to FIGHT BACK against these hypocritical sleazebags who would ORGIASTICALLY engage in behavior that would land the rest of us in jail AND ON TV! Last but not least, I know it's gonna inflate her ego to the size of an aircraft carrier (hehehehe), but RubberNursey got me to see the many sides (and reasons) of erotic professionals.

[Organicgrowth]

Sinanju Master

Very well put. Control is the key here. I recall a scene from the recent Da Vinci film which reminded me of something I had read many years ago: the grand meeting which took place at the “putting together of the bible” ensured men would be people whist women would be chattel.

As naive as it may sound, it’s our duty as mongers to stop sex slavery.

Regards,

Havanaman

[Elberto]

BUYING SEX IS NOT A SPORT:

http://catwepetition.ouvaton.org/php/index.phpFrom the PDF file: "From June 9 - July 9, 2006, 12 German cities will host the World Cup Games. Approximately 3 million football fans – mostly men – will attend. It is estimated that 40,000 women will be “imported” from Central and Eastern Europe into Germany to “sexually service” the men."

Isn't capitalism great? 40,000 women who were otherwise unemployed / underemployed will now have a high-paying job providing a valuable and needed service.

What makes the Coalition think this is a bad thing? Are they pro-unemployment? Do they think women should be destitute? Why do they hate women?

These same do-gooders probably have no qualms with using the government to forcibly extort money from taxpayers to redistribute to the unemployed or destitute, but God forbid a woman be able to support herself by renting out her pussy.

[Organicgrowth]

Elberto,

Very well said! As long as these women have the freedom of choice to "rent out" or not its OK with me. If this is a sex-slavery device then we all must offer a protest. But if it is movement of "trade" across Europe than so be it!

Regards, Havanaman

[Rubber Nursey]

From the PDF file: "From June 9 - July 9, 2006, 12 German cities will host the World Cup Games. Approximately 3 million football fans – mostly men – will attend. It is estimated that 40,000 women will be “imported” from Central and Eastern Europe into Germany to “sexually service” the men."

Just another example of the sensationalist language we were discussing a few posts back.

Sex worker-friendly translation: "From June 9 - July 9, 2006, 12 German cities will host the World Cup Games. Approximately 3 million football fans – mostly men – will attend. It is estimated that 40,000 destitute women from Central and Eastern Europe will flock to Germany to earn more money than they've ever dreamed of."

Yes, pimps and traffickers will probably take advantage of the huge amounts of money to be made and perhaps smuggle girls in against their will.THIS IS A CRIME AND SHOULD BE DEALT WITH AS SUCH WHEN, AND IF, IT HAPPENS.

Yes, some pimps and syndicates will probably smuggle girls in who WANT to be there to earn the big bucks, but can't get into the country legally because sex work is not considered a legitimate form of labour in most countries when it comes to obtaining working visas or permits. These women will probably end up handing over most of their profits to the 'traffickers' who assisted them in entering the country - 'TRAFFICKERS' WHO WOULD NOT BE INVOLVED AT ALL IF GOVERNMENT POLICY HAD ALLOWED THESE WOMEN TO ENTER LEGALLY, AS SEX WORKERS, BY THEMSELVES.

And, as a side note, the petition mentions the squalid conditions in which the sex workers will be working (tents, no toilets and showers, etc). This is nothing to do with trafficking or prostitution. This is an industrial relations/workplace safety/city council issue. Rather than circulating a petition to ban sex work altogether, why don't these people get together with the local prostitute's union (yes, Germany has one) and help them LOBBY LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE AN ACCEPTABLE WORKING ENVIRONMENT FOR THESE WOMEN?

Awesome post, Elberto. Welcome to the board. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

Tomorrow, June 2nd, is International *****s Day. It celebrates the actions of 150 French prostitutes who staged a sit-in at a church in Lyon, France on June 2nd 1975, to protest against police brutality and corruption and improve sex workers' legal/employment/social status. Their protest did not see any laws changed - and after a week, the sit-in was brought to a brutal end when police stormed the church in an early morning raid - but they managed to attract enough attention, both locally and internationally, to effectively kick-start the worldwide sex worker rights movement.

(For further info: http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/ch5-2.html , http://www.smmirror.com/Volume1/issue6/hooker.html , http://www.scarletalliance.org.au )

So if any of you are out there mongering tomorrow - give your girl a kiss on the cheek and say "Happy International *****s Day"! :)

[Rubber Nursey]

If electricity comes from electrons - does morality come from morons? :)

[Rubber Nursey]

I found this online petition against Dubya's 'No money for naughty NGOs who support prostitution and abortion' funding policy (as discussed a few posts ago). Stop Bush from forcing his brand of puritanical paternalism on the rest of the world - and on America, for that matter!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/271287763?ltl=1151288106

[Rock Dog]

Not sure where to post this one, but this forum seems like the best place..... so here it goes.

I have a major situation here. Once or twice a month, I go to my favorite massage parlor here in town. It's the ONLY one I care to visit. I got off work early this afternoon and went over to see if the were any hot looking girls working.

I leaf through the book with all the girls photos. Then, !shock! I see a picture of my WIFE'S BEST FRIEND. Number one, I don't want her seeing me there. Number two, I didn't have any idea that she was doing that kind of work... and I think my wife would be fairly stunned as well. Number three, I think don't think she'd like people knowing she works there.

What to do? I like going there..... it's one of my favorite things to do, a special treat. If I go back, sooner or later she will see me there.

I have considered going back sometime and telling her "let's keep each others secret." But who knows? Someday she might get pissed off at my wife and use the knowledge as a weapon. On the other hand, she's not a bad looking girl and there's been many a time when I'd imagine having sex with her. Now all I have to do is grab a hundred bucks and go visit her at work.

Has this ever happened to anyone else around here? This is totally fucked up. One way and I'm taking a huge risk. The other way and I lose out on all my variety. If anyone has some good idea about how this situation could be handled, I'm all ears!

Rock

ps. This girl is single, and I'm married.....so I have more to lose if people find out about me going to the massage parlor, than if people find out she works there.
pps. RN, if you're reading this.... I'd especially like to hear your thoughts seeing as you will have a valuable female perspective on this situation.

[Ray Black]

Not sure where to post this one, but this forum seems like the best place..... so here it goes.

I have a major situation here. Once or twice a month, I go to my favorite massage parlor here in town. It's the ONLY one I care to visit. I got off work early this afternoon and went over to see if the were any hot looking girls working.

I leaf through the book with all the girls photos. Then, !shock! I see a picture of my WIFE'S BEST FRIEND. Number one, I don't want her seeing me there. Number two, I didn't have any idea that she was doing that kind of work... and I think my wife would be fairly stunned as well. Number three, I think don't think she'd like people knowing she works there.

What to do? I like going there..... it's one of my favorite things to do, a special treat. If I go back, sooner or later she will see me there.

I have considered going back sometime and telling her "let's keep each others secret." But who knows? Someday she might get pissed off at my wife and use the knowledge as a weapon. On the other hand, she's not a bad looking girl and there's been many a time when I'd imagine having sex with her. Now all I have to do is grab a hundred bucks and go visit her at work.

Has this ever happened to anyone else around here? This is totally fucked up. One way and I'm taking a huge risk. The other way and I lose out on all my variety. If anyone has some good idea about how this situation could be handled, I'm all ears!

Rock

PS. This girl is single, and I'm married, so I have more to lose if people find out about me going to the massage parlor, than if people find out she works there.
pps. RN, if you're reading this. I'd especially like to hear your thoughts seeing as you will have a valuable female perspective on this situation.In casual conversation, ask your wife what her friend does for a living. She may already know about her 'other life'. Follow up with " why do you think that she is she not married?" If your wife does not already know, I suggest that you do not tell her the truth.

I would probably try to find another massage parlour for visiting. Your wife's friend could be very dangerous to you in many ways. Do not risk having to pay 'hush money" etc.

Ray

[Chocha Monger]

Rock Dog,

Please think with the big head and not the little one. How many women can be trusted to keep a secret like that from their BEST FRIEND? Women are unpredictable and act on emotion. Let's say that you let this girl in on your dirty little secret then one day your wife (her best friend) does her a really big favor, she starts to feel guilty about accepting your wife's kindness and breaks down and tells her the truth about Rock Dog and his appetites. Get the picture? Another scenario might be that your wife already knows and is keeping her best friend's secret from you. Are you willing to risk that?

Plain and simple, you did not see that picture. Find somewhere else to get your massages. Don't even fantasize about sessioning with your WIFE'S BEST FRIEND. The convenience of getting stress relief close by will seem insignificant in retrospect if you get divorced or end up begging your wife's forgiveness. Just think about it for a moment.

[Rock Dog]

Chocha thank you for the advice.

I definitely won't be pursuing such a high-risk adventure. However.... since yesterday, I've figured out one other option. All I have to do is call ahead and ask who's working. If she's there, I won't go. If she's not, I can!

This might not make that much sense to you. But you have to understand that the other MPs here are really gross. One of them is located less than a block from where I work. It would only be a matter of time before someone saw me if I tried going to that one.

Anyways, these places seem to have a fairly high turnover. I'm going to cool things off for a couple of months and see if she quits.

Rock

[Roguesta]

I hope you took note of her 'stage' name, for when you call, because I'm sure she isn't using her real one.

[Rubber Nursey]

I have considered going back sometime and telling her "let's keep each others secret." But who knows? Someday she might get pissed off at my wife and use the knowledge as a weapon. On the other hand, she's not a bad looking girl and there's been many a time when I'd imagine having sex with her. Now all I have to do is grab a hundred bucks and go visit her at work.

pps. RN, if you're reading this.... I'd especially like to hear your thoughts seeing as you will have a valuable female perspective on this situation.

Rock - sorry I didn't read this sooner. I'm guessing you've already made up your mind by now, but here goes anyway.

Like everyone else here has already said, this is a situation you need to stay the hell away from!! DO NOT, under any circumstances, let on that you know where she works, for BOTH your sakes. You both stand to lose a lot if this information was to ever get out. You risk being outed as a monger - with her telling your wife either now, in the best interests of her friend, or later if her and your wife have a fight - and she risks being outed as a sex worker. (She's obviously not 'Out and Proud' about being a sex worker, or you would have known about it already).

I've seen MANY occasions where clients have come into brothels and have known one of the workers and almost all of those situations end in disaster. You are so very lucky that only ONE of you knows the situation - nobody else needs ever know a thing if you keep your mouth shut. You are going to have to make a concerted effort to behave exactly the same way around this woman as you would have before - otherwise she will know something is up and, more importantly, your wife may get suspicious that there's something going on between the two of you. PLEASE try to forget you ever saw that photo.

It might be wise to call ahead and check to see if she's working - BUT - don't forget, brothels, etc, can be very flexible with the truth when it comes to getting clients in the door. What if they lie and say she's not on when she is? What if you make a booking to see one girl and they do the switch and send in your wife's friend instead? What if she comes on shift or turns up to get her pay packet, just as you're walking out the door after a booking? Unfortunately, you may have to just cut your losses and find another place to go - like I had to do when my EX-HUSBAND found ME working in a massage parlour!!!

[Starchild2012]

Rock,

Buddy, Just wait for few weeks, these MP's change their stocks in couple of weeks or at the most in a months time or two...depending upon the customers flow....if customers are more ..she will stay for a longer time...if less she will stay for few weeks and pack her bags and go to another MP..

This is the standard norm all over the world....as you are a regular in there..just keep enquiring..when will the new girls arrive......as you will know the date of her departure....:)

Just give a window of one month for her and she will be gone by itself...

[Rock Dog]

BL5 and, especially, RN

I read over both of your posts carefully. Thanks to both of you for your advice, I really appreciate that you took some time to think about this situation and write down your thoughts.

Born L 5, I'd considered this possibility as well. The average time a girl works at this particualr MP seems to be a matter of months, although there are a few who have been there for years.

RN, after reading your post, I've decided to keep this secret to myself. As long as I'm the only one who knows, I'll have the 100% advantage. I'm going to reduce my visits to a bare minimum. I know this place well.... they never do a bait and switch. When you pick a girl, that's the one you get. However I will DEFINITELY call ahead on the SAME day and make sure she's not working.

One nice thing about this place, they have a policy of keeping the girls in the back room when they aren't in a session. Nobody is supposed to be hanging around the front desk. I'm thinking that reducing my visits to once every couple of months, and checking to make sure she isn't working should reduce the risk to near zero.

Remember, the important thing for me is that my wife does not find out. Even if her friend finds out what I do (and that I know what she does for a living), that does not mean that my wife automatically gets informed about my recreational activities. One thing I WON'T be doing is booking a session with her.

You know, it's funny that you mentioned how your ex-husband got all upset when he found out about your job. I actually used to think it would be nice to have a girlfriend that worked in a massage parlour. High-quality BJs and handjobs, she makes her own money, and neither of us would have any reason to get mad/jealous over the others sexual activities.

May I ask how he found out? I'm assuming you either told him, or he somehow found out by accident.

Rock

[Rubber Nursey]

May I ask how he found out? I'm assuming you either told him, or he somehow found out by accident.

For the record, he was already my EX husband when it happened, which was kinda good because there wasn't any jealousy/infidelity issues to worry about - but kinda bad because we were in the middle of a very bitter divorce at the time!

It was an absolutely BIZARRE coincidence that he found me. I was working in a tiny massage parlour out in the middle of nowhere, hidden in a back street amongst factories in an industrial area on the outskirts of Perth. There were about five girls on during the day and every lunchtime we would take turns walking about thirty metres down the road to the cafe to pick up the lunches. One day, it just happened to be my turn to get lunch and I just happened to walk out onto the street at the exact moment that my ex husband just happened to be driving out of the secondhand tyre place across the road!!!

Obviously, all hell broke loose and he tried to destroy me with the information. Funny thing is, fate may have been cruel to me in the way I got discovered, but it was even crueller to HIM when he tried to use it against me! He went straight back to our hometown and told anyone who would listen about where I was working. I KNEW he would do that, so I left the massage parlour straight away and started working in an inner city brothel. But in another bizarre coincidence, a new girl started at the massage parlour within days of me leaving - who apparently not only fitted my physical discription, but she was using my REAL name as her working name! So for the next two or three months, all these guys from my hometown were visiting/calling the massage parlour (at my ex's insistence) and asking for me (by my real name) and this other girl was walking out to meet them - making my ex look like a total liar!! LOL

[Rock Dog]

RN,
You know, when I read a story like that..... it proves that reality can be stranger than fiction!

Also, no matter how bad one might wish to keep something secret.... things have a way of leaking out eventually.

I was thinking, with regards to my own situation, that even if I called ahead to make sure that girl was NOT working.... the staff might get curious and ask her why some guy wanted to avoid her so bad. If she had half a brain, she could probably put 2 and 2 together and figure out it was me.

Ah well, I can always avoid the place completely for a couple of months and console myself with the thought of how much $$$ I'm saving.

Hey, about your ex-husband...... did you ever get married again afterwards?

Rock

[DJ FourMoney]

I'm watching it now, but it will be on again at 11pm PST or 2am EST

Interesting.... Was done in Nov 2005, so the information is pretty RECENT.

[Rubber Nursey]

Hey, about your ex-husband...... did you ever get married again afterwards?

Hell No! I learned my lesson the first time!!! ;)

[Alex Rock]

I live in Beijing.

I originally started off totally naive about mongering till my long term girlfriend dumped me. I drowned my sorrows at Passion - a high class KTV/ pick up place for working girls (I didn't know they were working girls at first). After a few times chatting, a great looking girl there asked me to be her boyfriend. I thought the girls only made tips for talking and drinking with clients. She was great. Super looker. She treated me great and moved in with me. When we’d go out she was always holding my arm and would kiss me often with her big lips. In the evenings she’d work late and tell me she only made money from tips. Whenever she cam home she'd always look happy to see me, but often I was horny and she'd be too tired.

Then after a while I got suspicious, I found condoms in her bag, and she'd take calls making sure I didn't hear. After I found out how she made so much money, went through some troubled times. She opened up and told me everything. It turns out quite a number of these working girls have boyfriends like me who don't know what they do. (Some guys do know and don't care - they like the money) I oscillated between intellectually understanding and accepting the profession, but inside, uncontrollable jealousy would kick in, and I eventually broke up with her.

I couldn’t handle having such strong feelings for her and knowing she was (later past tense “had”) slept with so many guys. Some nights, I would wait awake for hours thinking what she was doing, where was she, what kind of guy. Images of guys kissing her or sucking her nipples drove me crazy. One day she came back after a night with a client, who took her and bought a nice fur jacket. I cut the jacket into pieces - I was so jealous.

Trying to understand how working girls think, and if my girlfriend had been telling me the truth that it was very different with a boyfriend than with a client, I went to talk to and sometimes to try other working girls. I was totally honest with them about everything. After that I found it is actually quite easy to pick up working girls as freebies, especially if they have failed to get a client and want someone to be nice to them, or if they see you as accepting their job and willing to be their boyfriend. I think it was because having had a working girl as a girlfriend and understanding their lives, they felt some kind of empathy from me. Several Passion girls who knew my ex-girlfriend wanted to be my girlfriend. Don’t ask me to explain why. It’s not easy.

With some working girls, I’d pay the first night, then they’d come back for free – “to take it easy for a few days” – sometimes for 3-4 days at a time at my place. They’d like shopping for food and cooking together and would have sex in the kitchen, living room or bedroom. Several of these girls became friends and are still friends. One of them a super looker from Shanghai came on holiday with me to Thailand. No strings – no cash – she even went with me, for fun, to watch me have a bath and body massage, with sex. She helped me choose the girl and was chatting to the Thai girl as she was screwing me.

I miss my original gf. I remember good times, but then suddenly get sick feelings when I remember the suspicion and jealousy.

How would a working girl in her situation THINK about her boyfriend, if she didn't want to give up the money of her job.?

If you were me, would you bother about her work? Would you break up with her ? or find ways to deal with it?

[Alex Rock]

When I got to know a few sex workers as friends in China, I gradually learned of the insecurity many of these girls have. Will the guy pay, will he be rough?, will he be coarse and rude.?

Some girls told me horror stories of things that happened to them. One had her mobile phone taken, all her money and watch and kicked out, the guy said "go ahead call the police".

Some clients don't pay - or say they'll pay a few days later then don't pay.

Others treat working girls like shit and order them around and bully them.

Maybe that's when guys are nice and respectful to these girls, it's very easy for these girls to look for a "warm place to stay".

[Rubber Nursey]

Alex,

First things first... "How would a working girl in her situation THINK about her boyfriend, if she didn't want to give up the money of her job?"

Working girls think of their boyfriends like any other girl thinks of their boyfriend - they love them. Your girlfriend was telling you the absolute truth. Sex with your boyfriend is VERY different to sex with a client. It's really hard to explain (I've tried it many times over the years in this thread) but when you work, it's like it's not actually you doing it. It's a whole other woman...your working persona.

I guess the closest thing I can think of to compare it to (and it's not really very close, I'm sorry) would be if you were a Gynocologist. You would spend every day with your head between women's legs and your fingers and hands inside their vaginas. You wouldn't feel any sexual excitement - every time it would be just another patient with just another pussy. But I'm sure Gynos don't feel the same way when they get a woman in their bed! They touch their patient's vaginas as a doctor and their partner's vagina as a lover. Does that make any sense? A working girl touches her clients as a professional sex worker - but she touches her partner as a lover.

That doesn't mean she doesn't ENJOY the sex with her clients though...and that's where your next question comes in, that there is really no simple answer for. Yes, when she's enjoying sex with her client, in HER mind it's her work persona having the fun. It's not her. It has no impact on her, emotionally. Her work persona may be having a great time, but the 'real' her is hiding deep inside and has absolutely nothing to do with what's going on. (Again, I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's really hard to describe what goes on in your mind in that situation and that's the nearest I can get!)

Thing is though - in YOUR mind, she is still having sex with another man. And she is, simple as that. The jealousy and fear and anger you feel about that, is TOTALLY VALID. That's why most sex workers either stay single or don't tell their partners what they do for a living. In our heads, we feel we're not doing anything 'wrong' for our relationship. We don't class it as infidelity because we know that there is no emotion involved, like there would be in an affair. As silly as it sounds, a hooker with a partner could have sex with five men a day at work and feel nothing- but if she went to a party OUTSIDE of work and fooled around with someone else, she'd be consumed with guilt for being unfaithful to her partner.

But that doesn't make it any easier on you, as her partner. You don't see her work persona performing a service for a living - you see your girlfriend having sex with strangers. It takes a certain kind of person, and a certain kind of relationship, to deal with that situation. Don't feel bad if you can't live with it - the majority of men couldn't. I can't tell you whether you should be with her or not. That's something only YOU can decide. But be honest with yourself...it WILL bother you. You WILL have trouble dealing with your feelings and there is a very good chance that you could become bitter towards her because of it. If you feel really strongly about the relationship and want to try again, then TALK to her about the way you feel...but don't try and make her quit. This is her income we're talking about, not some promiscuous lifestyle that she should give up to settle down. Eventually it will come down to one of you making a huge sacrifice - either she stops working, or you learn to live with your girlfriend being with other men. It CAN work, but it's a tough one and I wish you the very best of luck. x

[Lazzaro]

......I KNEW he would do that, so I left the massage parlour straight away.......So for the next two or three months, all these guys from my hometown were visiting/calling the massage parlour (at my ex's insistence) and asking for me (by my real name) and this other girl was walking out to meet them - making my ex look like a total liar!! LOL
RN,

It means that if a man come into a "massage parlour" or into a "brothel" asking for a specific girl, she hasn't the chance to give an eye BEFORE meet him?
There is no "secret" hole in the wall where look at the man who is asking for the girl?
I think it should be, because if a girl look in advance, could avoid "strange" encounters. It doesn't mean your boyfriend/hus, but also an unpolite man, a strange person and so on.......

If she recognize him, and she doesn't want meet him, someone could tell him "sorry she's working/busy at the moment" or "she's not in, today".
It means that girls are forced to lie with customers, even if she doesn't like him?

[Lazzaro]

That's why most sex workers either stay single or don't tell their partners what they do for a living. In our heads, we feel we're not doing anything 'wrong' for our relationship. We don't class it as infidelity because we know that there is no emotion involved, like there would be in an affair. As silly as it sounds, a hooker with a partner could have sex with five men a day at work and feel nothing- but if she went to a party OUTSIDE of work and fooled around with someone else, she'd be consumed with guilt for being unfaithful to her partner.
True!
A couple friends of mine, are very deeply in love each other, but sometime (once per month in average) they go to a swinger club.
I know it is a little bit different on what you wrote, but the meaning is that both of them enjoy sex with several different partners, and during those night they cum several times, but it doesn't mean that both of them don't like the partner.
No mind involved during these session, only the body.
But I know that he was (one or two years ago) with another woman for 2 night consecutive.
He told her and she forgive him, but still now he hate himself for being unfaithful to his partner.

[Alex Rock]

Thank you - you've really helped me. It helps me understand. One night I went to the place she worked just after it opened, she was sitting alone and looking at her glass of soda. She didn't see me, I just watched. After 10 minuted she started working the room. Later she tole me she needs the time to get into a different mode - to get into the bargirl and out of her real self.

You've helped me understand what she meant. I loved her, I still do. She made me very happy for a while, but I gues it my hang ups. Porbably genetic make up rather than rationale thinking.

Flipping the question. Could you have a boyfriend who was a sex worker? How would you feel? Do yo think women feel different about these things?

You seem to be really well balanced and self confident. I bet lots of guys confide in you.

Thank you again - x

[Rubber Nursey]

It means that if a man come into a "massage parlour" or into a "brothel" asking for a specific girl, she hasn't the chance to give an eye BEFORE meet him?...If she recognize him, and she doesn't want meet him, someone could tell him "sorry she's working/busy at the moment" or "she's not in, today". It means that girls are forced to lie with customers, even if she doesn't like him?

I've worked in quite a few different brothels and been a visitor in many others. In most of them, there was usually a way that the girls could see who was coming in. Not all of them, though. Plus, it depends on what sort of brothel you're working in. I always worked in houses with an 'intro' system - where the clients would come into a separate lounge or one of the bedrooms and the girls would go in, one by one, to introduce themselves. If you are in a house where you can see the clients as they come in, you can just refuse to go out for the intro. But other brothels have a 'lounge' setup, where the workers are sitting in a lounge and guys come in and mingle with all the girls before choosing one. There is nowhere to run in that situation - if someone you know comes in, you're stuffed!

As for whether sex workers have freedom to choose whether or not to sleep with a client - that's something I can only answer from MY personal experience in MY country. In all the places I've worked, and in the majority of brothels around Australia, sex workers have TOTAL CONTROL over who they book with and who they don't. I have never been forced to see a client I didn't want to by a brothel owner - and if I ever had been, I would have left the place immediately. Same goes for workers I've spoken to in New Zealand, Canada, England and the US. However, workers in these countries are generally older, better educated and more aware of their rights - in many other countries, workers are very strictly 'controlled' by management.

[Rubber Nursey]

You are most welcome, Alex. And thank you so much for the kind words. :)



Flipping the question. Could you have a boyfriend who was a sex worker? How would you feel? Do yo think women feel different about these things?

Haha - that's something I've been asked MANY times on this forum and I don't think I've ever been able to answer it properly! Plus my opinions have changed constantly over the years...I guess it depends on what I'm looking for in a relationship at the time, or how I'm feeling about myself.

I would prefer to have a boyfriend who was a hooker, than one who had affairs or wanted to be involved in swinging or an 'open relationship', but could I have a successful relationship with a male sex worker? No, I doubt it. Does that make me a hypocrite? Yes, it does - but I just know that I couldn't deal with the situation. And not just because I'm a jealous, possessive b*tch who doesn't like to share. :) All my insecurities would kick in - Are his clients prettier than me? Younger? Hotter? Do they do things to him that I don't do? Do they do it better than I do? - and I just wouldn't be able to stop my mind ticking over. Even if I was working myself at the time, I just know that I would go crazy with jealousy.

And I KNOW that it's just my petty insecurities talking, because I know that I could date a FEMALE sex worker and not have the same problem with it. I was actually seeing a working girl for a short time a couple of years ago. The fact that she was having sex all day with men, never crossed my mind. She was just 'at work'. So basically my problem is not so much with my partner having sex with other people, but with ME comparing myself to other women.

I don't think women would necessarily feel any different to a man in this situation. I think some people are just emotionally equipped to deal with it, and others aren't. And, unfortunately, I'm one of the latter!

[Alex Rock]

Once again, thanks. You have given me great insights.

[Organicgrowth]

RN,

As always your candor is refreshing. Thank you. I enjoyed your answer to Alex Rock’s question.

Regards, Havanaman

[Bill Bradsky]

Here is a recent quote from the Malaysian police in the Star newspaper regarding the women working in KL.

"KUALA LUMPUR: Police claim foreign and local prostitutes charge between RM200 and RM300 per customer per session.

Police also found that most women had become willing sex workers, contrary to the commonly held notion that they had been forced into the flesh trade"

Of course NGOs hate to have the truth come out like this because they have a vested interest in the "forced" story. That is the story they use to collect funds so they have a job protecting the "misfortunates".

BB

[Lazzaro]

...Same goes for workers I've spoken to in New Zealand, Canada, England and the US. However, workers in these countries are generally older, better educated and more aware of their rights - in many other countries, workers are very strictly 'controlled' by management.
RN,

As even, you're so gentle, never beyond the lines.......
Thank you indeed!
A virtual kiss on your nose!

Reading your reports, you turned on to me a new light on a dark side (for me) of this world.

I'd like to know more about it, but I feel the risk to be seen as a sexual maniac, while, in the truth, I'd like to know better the thoughts either of the sex workers and the customers.

It could sound strange, given that I'm a customer myself, but I know ONLY my thoughts, not the ones of the other customers; the same for the sex worker.

My idea, some time ago, was to film the life in a "normal" brothel (no sex scenes: I don't care about them. There are too many porno movies), and/or 24/24 7/7 with one or more sex workers (either men or women): what he/she does before and after the work? his/her "problems" with the homeworking, and so on, but in Italy there are more problems in making this movie than hairs on my head.
Maybe lot of people will see this world under another interesting point of view.

Even though I don't know you (and the same for you) and none of us mongers know you, we all are sure about you.
You are a sort of "virtual" or "invisible" friend of each one of us where everyone of us could ask and find nice words and a good suggestion from you.

Thank you once more!

L.

[Alex Rock]

- of brothels I mean.

In my very limited exposure to the trade and some girls from very different backgrounds, I'd suggest there'd be a huge difference between brothels where the women who are in the business from their own choice, v.s those who have little choice to those who have been (or maybe once) forced into the business with no choice.

I think you have a good idea because prostitutes are most often depicted in a very negative way, though say in films like "Waterloo Bridge", "Suzy Wong" or the "White Countess", they depict prostitues in a more glamourous light.

I believe they're just like everyone else. They have normal feelings, normal friendships and normal competition with others. Something RN said made me think - they switch into a "working" personality - but after thinking about it, I think we all do too. We have different "selves" when we are acting different roles.

Nuff said.

[Lazzaro]

Something RN said made me think - they switch into a "working" personality - but after thinking about it, I think we all do too. We have different "selves" when we are acting different roles.Nuff said.
AR,

Try to understand what I'm saying.

I'm working for an International Insurance Company, but often some friends of mine call me (they are working for several different Insurance Brokers) asking for a favour for underwrite a policy.
In THAT moment, I'm not their friend, but a simply Insurer who's working.
My final decision, doesn't depend on my relationship with them, but only if the risk is profitable or not for my Company.
I could be a different "self" if I'm at work or I'm at home.

I agree:
Nuff said.

[VilunyaChert]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1840101,00.html

An article about women sex tourists.

[Bart9000]

Ms. Bindel mistakenly conflates prostitution with destitution; i.e., that no one actually wants to be a prostitute, and that all prostitures are thus victims of poverty. This is untrue. Firstly, many horny young men leap at the chance of being payed to do what they are desperate to do anyway, 24/7: have sex. Secondly, the idea that prostitution is demeaning is a peculiar one, born of guilt about sex inculcated by the nonsensical Abrahamic religions. In ancient Rome, prostitution was regarded as a high-class occupation, with top prostitutes of both sexes being garlanded by a the emperor himself. It is only when we disentangle the economic imperative from the biological drive, and cease to conflate sex for cash with immorality per se, that any meaningful examination of the phenomenon of prostitution can begin. It is inherently illogical rants such as Ms. Bindel's that hinder such examination, and thus, in writing her article, Ms. Bindel is in her own small way contributing to the very practice she perceives to be a problem.
Recent advances in neurobiology have shown that the sex drive is only ever short-term towards one person, anyway, so an ethos based on recognising this fact is inevitable in the long run--unless thwarted by those like Ms. Bindel, who mistakenly view prostitution through the twisted prism of her own parochial mores as mere exploitation, as if it can never have an upside. Thank you for contributing to the ill-informed majority who strive constantly to keep us all mired in the Dark Ages.

[DJ FourMoney]

You can take my post seriously or lightly, its up to you.

I have no formal experience with either FKK's in Germany or Brothels in Nevada other than passing them on I-80 on my way back from the east coast when I was driving a truck.

So Im not going to pretend I know how they function.

What I'm going to deal with is how you can fly under the radar, operate a sucessful business and insure that even the most staunch "right winger" won't even make flippant comments about you or your business.

Joe Public is not scared of the Mob, through Hollywood's love affair with originized crime in movies and on TV. Just look at how many people (including yourselves) rush home to watch " The Sopranos"....

What Joe Public is scared of is "Urban Culture" mainly because it involves African-Americans, Latinos, White Trash and Poor Asians. All things Joe Public tries to sweep under the rug when trying to make a case for how great living in America is.

For an American FKK to work, you have to soak it in Hip-Hop/Urban Culture. I know some of you detest rap music and everything that comes with it, but that's the beauty of it. You don't like it, but its popular enough that you can't do much about it and there's nothing illegal about it.

You can put a "figure head" as your bogus CEO even if the key owner is white as rice. Have thump'in rap music on your web site and employ providers that are comfortable with this theme.

Afterall, there are plenty of providers that on their "off days" are out there shaking their butts to Busta Rhymes anyway. Your playing into their comfort zone.

As I said elsewhere - Keep it Street and you'll have no problems. Especially with it being 50-60 miles outside of Las Vegas. Are you really going to have people protest in the hot desert?

Afterall, its another form of a brothel, just the rates are fixed and you're employing mostly Europeans, South Americans, Asians, Africans (all on work visas), and select Americans and Canadians.

Your doing this is ensure GFE or PSE for 90% of your clientel as Americans and Canadians from what I have read have a problem providing this kind of service but the women from South America, most of Europe (especially Eastern Europe, et all don't seem to have that problem...

Feel free to take my idea and run with it, all I ask is that you allow me free access at all times and free service. :D

[Chocha Monger]

DJ,

I believe that anyone coming to the US to work as a prostitute will be immediately denied a visa. Prostitution is one of the many disqualifying factors on a visa application. The providers will be considered inadmissible aliens just on those grounds alone. If that wasn't the case SA pros would be wealthy after one six month tour of the US business hubs.

AW has got the competition locked down real tight!

[DJ FourMoney]

DJ,

I believe that anyone coming to the US to work as a prostitute will be immediately denied a visa. Prostitution is one of the many disqualifying factors on a visa application. The providers will be considered inadmissible aliens just on those grounds alone. If that wasn't the case SA pros would be wealthy after one six month tour of the US business hubs.

AW has got the competition locked down real tight!

That's where you need to get creative...

[Chocha Monger]

When mongering abroad Western mongers sometimes experience the "rock star" effect where local non-pros are willing to give it up for free in hope that the monger will fall in love, marry and take them to the promised lands of North America or Europe.

Should mongers accept these "freebies" when they have no intention of marrying the girl? Does accepting freebies fly in the face of the rules of pay-for-play and is it unethical?

[Sinanju Master]

If you're overseas and looking for some trim, then, at the very worst, it's: "I'm gonna get mine, and that's all that matters". The best situation would be to make the situation symbiotic (for lack of a better phrase). Admittedly, I'm in between the two schools of thought. If someone wants to "save" a prostitute, then he/she should enter the priesthood and dive into it FULL STEAM AHEAD and not be a hypocrite by getting their "needs" met on the side. In other words, if you commit the aforementioned situation, the you're half-stepping and being hypocritical to one of the two schools of thought.

[Chocha Monger]

Sinanju Master,

You're right, I really can't see a monger taking the moral high ground. The whole concept of mongering deals with the finding of women to fuck at the lowest possible cost to the monger. Men travel to monger specifically because they gain an advantage not found on their home court. At the end of the day it all boils down to the fact that you're going to FUCK these women! It doesn't matter whether the price of access is a meal or cold cash, the objective is the same.

If the woman has 50 stars in her eyes and opts to gamble on the monger carrying out a rendition then she has no one to blame but herself for not having stated her price up front and ensuring that she is duly compensated. She can either get paid on the spot or wager on cashing out at the back end with the Rule of Two Thirds. The latter option is a high risk investment but if she can pull it off the rewards will be far greater than any guaranteed immediate payment. These girls all know someone who hit the jackpot by marrying some old lecher and getting a one way ticket out of poverty. When they give it up for "free" what they're really doing is wagering the pussy for a shot at the grand prize.

The idea of humane mongering is laughable; one cannot be a monger and a saint at the same time. You can't straddle the line without being a hypocrite. In conclusion, as long as both parties agree to the terms of the engagement there should be no objection. These women can't be helped by fucking them for dollars.

[Opebo]

There is no such thing as objective morality, only subjective preference.

[Hairyguy6]

Sid raised an interesting observation when he was in Pattaya recently. He noticed an increase in the more british father's bringing their young sons along to play. Some of them were around 15 or 16 yrs old and barfining the ladies... It caused me to reflect on how I felt as a 16 yr old lad, hormones raging, dying to get laid etc... For many cultures, including thai, many of the young bucks had their first go with a prostitute. I don't think it will harm the lads. In fact it may help them in pursuing the pussy at home. It must be a western vs asian culture thing. What do you guys think?

Still love patts anyways.

[George90]

It must be a western vs asian culture thing. What do you guys think?

No, it's not. Xavier Hollander wrote in her book, The Happy Hooker, that many of her clients were the teenage sons of her regulars. She gave me the impression that it was normal for well-to-do fathers to introduce their sons to sex through prostitutes. Given that XH was a high class one, I think it is a class thing that is common to all cultures.

[Rock Dog]

Personally, I think that's the greatest idea. It's not something you'd want to state out loud if there were any women around, but still....

What a great way to have your first experience. None of the fear or hesitation that comes from being an inexperienced teenager trying, for the first time, to convince a girl to have sex with you.

If my dad would have taken me out and set me up for my first woman it would have been the greatest thing in the world! It would probably be an enjoyable thing for the girl as well, getting the opportunity to be the boy's first woman.

Not just that, but also the chance to learn how to do things right instead of learning by trial and error. There would also be the benefit of self-esteem that goes with getting laid..... as opposed to going several years past puberty wondering when and how it's ever gonna happen. If I could have got my first fuck with a good looking woman when I was 14 or 15, I would have been like a fox in a henhouse all the way through high-school!

Of course, even now, that's one of my favorite aspects of P4P.... knowing when and where it's gonna be!

In case anybody's wondering.... yes, I would definitely offer this kind of opportunity to my own son.

Rock

[Wanking]

Most men over 30 are not getting much sex

I am 36 and I have had sex with over 50 women this year, but I often have to go up to 6 weeks without sex, and then I go on a trip and shag 10 or 15 hookers. I am sex obsessed and would obviously love to have more sex if I could. My ideal situation would be at least twice a week, with different women. When I meet up with my mates for a few drinks, talk usually comes around to my sexploits, and the lack of sex most of them are having.

Lets look at my ten closest mates and sex what they are getting. Most are married now, and some are still single, and for one reason or another most are getting very little sex. So if this is the average it would seem that most guys in their 30’s must be very sexually frustrated. I also reckon that my married friends are not getting any extra “external” sex.

Mate 1:
He is 35 and has been married for 8 years now, and the sex life was pretty good until they had a baby earlier this year, and they still have not got back to it yet. He hasn’t had a shag in over 6 months now.

Mate 2:
He is 37, and also has been with the same girl for 15 years now. He used to two time her regularly until they got married 2 years ago. They had a baby late last year, and he claims they now fuck about once a week, which means once a month cos this guy is know to seriously exaggerate.

Mate 3:
He is 36, married for 4 years now, but has been with the girl 10 years. His wife is a cute little thing who I would love to shag. This guy has only fucked 2 or 3 women in his life, and I’d say he has a low sex drive. He gives away very little information about his sex life but Id say he only does it twice a month max.

Mate 4:
He is 37, and has been with the same woman for 13 years now, and she is older than him. I believe she is almost 50 now. Despite a good regular sex life in the early days, things have become very bad in the relationship over the last 5 years. He says they haven’t had sex in 18 months now.

Mate 5:
This 36 year old guy married a right old minger 2 years ago, and they had twins one year ago. He says they have only done it 4 or 5 times in the last year, and he says he is completely turned off performing oral sex after seeing his wife give birth

Mate 6:
This 35 year old is an all round cool dude in his own eyes. He is a cokehead and lives in a Scandinavian country with his local babe, who is also a cokehead. He claims to be a big horny stud, but I reckon all the coke and dope has taken it toll on his Libido. Still he has only been with his blonde girlfriend 18 months, so I am sure they manage it once a week or so.

Mate 7:
His nickname is “3 times”, because the joke is that he has only had sex 3 times and he has 3 kids. He has been with the same woman 15 years, and is married 8. He claims to be totally turned off his wife. He wont give exact details about his sex life but I’d say a few times per year is the max these days.

Mate 8:
Like mate 7, this guy has been with his woman for 15 years. They recently had 2 kids but he told me 10 years ago, that they usually would go for months without doing “it”.
He also claimed that he was totally turned off her 10 years ago. Still he managed 2 kids with her so maybe they are not his. I think this guy would more interested in fixing a car than having sex.

Mate 9:
This guy is 34 and has been single most of his life, and I mean single without a girlfriend. This guy claims to have not had sex for the last 2 years. He also brags that he wanks 2 or 3 times per days, and is always on the lookout for new porn. I recently brought him to an FKK club in Germany, and despite bragging about all he was going to do he only managed 2 very quick sessions.

Mate 10:
This 35 year old is a quiet and odd little guy to say the least. To my knowledge he has never had any sexual relations with a woman. He is a farmer and it is suspected that he may fuck sheep!!! Seriously.

So there ya go, these guys are not really been sexually blown away are they? I think I am having the most sexual fun by a long shot. Any comments??

[Rock Dog]

Sounds like typical married life to me. Seriously!

Deep down inside, I suspect that it's going against our (men's) biological nature to limit our sexual activity to just one woman. After a while you just get used to the way they look and it's just not that much of a turn-on anymore.

Women completely do NOT understand this. The only women who DO have some partial comprehrension seem to be the ones who take advantage of the fact by working in the sex industry.

To give a good example that proves my theory, take a normal guy in his mid 30's...... put him in bed with an attractive woman 21 yrs old. He can probably do it with her 2 or 3 times over a fairly short period of time. But, after that, it becomes difficult to keep getting aroused and perform more sex. When the guy reaches this point, swap out the girl he was doing it with and give him a new one. 9 times out of 10 his dick will be up and running no problem.

This is the principle behind harems, FKK clubs, termas and just plain having multiple girlfriends. Most of the guys out there who are buying viagra, levitra or whatever else probably don't even need that stuff. The reason their dicks aren't getting hard is because they've been shagging the same old pussy for too long!

Rock

[Toni Ten]

Sounds like you guys are growing up nicely, but I bet there nothing better than coming home from work to a well cooked dinner then a nice rub down and a little foreplay to get jr up and cumming. Ps that would be after years and years of what you are doing (future or not) the spencerd one TT.

[Alex Rock]

There's obviously a need, and like Wang King's mates many of my mates have miserable sex lives. Women too go outside their marriage or relationship for either one night stands or for emotional affairs. I know several so-called sexless wives of friends who are completely different - wild - when they're out with their girlfriends.

Living in Beijing, I see many guys come here and go crazy at least one or two nights a week, then they go back to their "normal" lives as husbands and fathers. Many guys might choose not to have sex with girls, but they need a fix of "sleaze", sexy women and lots of touching.

Why? It seems that many people don't get the sex and sleaze side of a relationship worked out or they don't fix the relationship problems and let irritations build up and let a vicious cycle of no-sex - no communication become a habit. Some guys feel they don't want to "lose face" by asking their women for sex.

Women say their husbands don't shave, don't brush their teeth, don't talk, watch a ball game, drink beer, then come to bed and want sex. They say they need some attention and "respect". My point is - it's a 2 way thing.

Prostitutes are people like us and they provide a service. Some people argue that sex with a prostitute doesn't threaten a marriage since it is physical and the relationship is over with no risks of someone running into you in a restaurant and creating hell. Prostitutes can often be good friends or even good shrinks - there is almost nothing you can say that shocks them. They seem to understand and can even give you advice about relationships without any vested interests.

Many people say that professional girls are actually safer than freebies. They are very careful about hygiene, whereas non professional girls might be more risky.

I know some Chinese women who don't care if their husbands have sex with working girls. Some even arrange for them. Why? maybe they're dumb, maybe they're smart. Those guys don't complain.

[Wanking]

(I know this article doesnt necessarily belong in this thread, but I couldnt see anywhere else to put it)

At this point in my life, I just want to have sex with lots of different women. I am not interested in a steady relationship right now. I wish I could go out and pull a different hot woman every night, but I cant. I am just not good-looking enough, among other things.

Was out for a few drinks with a mate last night, and as always talk came around to sex. This guy is married 8 years, and has 3 kids. He rarely shags his wife anymore, because he is severely turned off her, and he is also very jealous of my regular adventures around Europe. We got into a deep discussion about what options a man in his thirties has when it comes to having sex with women. And it really comes down to the following three.

Option 1:
Do like most guys in their 30’s, either be married or in a steady relationship. The big problem with this option is that after a while the sex gets stale, especially after kids come along. An absolute tiny % of these guys are lucky enough to find a wife who agrees to some swinging, or will let her man shag other women. (like lucky Shiatsu)

Option 2:
Prostitutes and Swingers clubs. At the moment I belong exclusively to this category. I have not had sex with a “regular” woman in 18 months now. I usually go on a sex trip to Europe every 6 weeks, and generally have sex with 5 – 15 women in a few days. If I had the money, I would have much more paid . The big advantage here is that it doesn’t matter how physically undesirable you are as long as you have enough money. Ok with swingers clubs you need to be at least not hideous.

Option 3:
One night stands. Most guys belonging to option 2 including me, dream about being to able pick up regular FREE one-night stands. The idea of going into a bar and picking a beautiful girl, and then having a night of sex with her is the ultimate dream. The problem with option 3 is that there are certain rules, and rule number one is that you must be physically attractive. Intelligence, charm, style, and money help as well, but if you are not good looking in the popular perception, well forget about it unless you are chasing very ugly girls. Variations on option 3 are Internet dating, and personal ads in the newspaper, but if you are planning to meet women for a one night stand using these methods the same rules apply i.e. you must be good looking.


But how many guys are there in their 30’s that can trawl the bars and clubs, and really pick up and have sex with women on the first night of meeting them. Well not that many I think. Often guys will go to same club and get to know a girl over a couple of nights before he fucks her. Also its only a small majority of women that want to have sex with a man just hours after meeting him. In an average bar or club, women are there for many reasons, girls night out, staff do, looking for a husband, and a very small number who actually want to meet a guy for completely no strings casual sex. But those women are out there.

I knew a few guys who were very good at picking up women when they were in their 20’s, and all these guys were very good looking and slim. But I have only ever known one guy in his 30’s that was very good at it. He was an area manager for a company that had outlets in every major city, and he was in a different place far way from home and his long-term girlfriend every night from Monday to Friday. This guy was a very good-looking player. For about 4 years from 2001 – 2004, he used to spend almost every tues, wed, thurs trying to pull women. And he had some major success; he really fucked some gorgeous babes in that time. I met many of them, but he also ended up fucking some right mingers. I was so Jealous of this guy, I would have given anything to be like him at the time. There were two types of women he tried, complete strangers in bars or clubs, and either the employees in the branches where he visited or their friends. If he scored with a woman, he usually tried to meet a couple of more times before dropping her, but this presented hassle in itself. In order to meet up with a girl again he would have to exchange mobile numbers and then some girls were very hard to get rid of, because they were constantly texting him and calling him. Then he had hassle with Jealous ex boyfriends, he also caught some STDs, and occasionally encountered girls with yeast infections or other vaginal problems. Often he would bring women back to his hotel with the expectation of sex, and end up getting nothing except a hug. But on the whole he got a lot of pussy, probably averaged 1-2 women a week.

He had one strategy when trying to chat up strangers. He would wait for good eye contact, and when that was confirmed he would move in for the small talk, and dancing. He was also generous with drinks, as he reckoned there was no point in being mean over £10 worth of drinks, and then not get laid. And the reason why he got some much pussy? He was a handsome Bastard. It all came to an end at the end of 2004 when the company went into liquidation, and he ended up getting a job in his home city under his girlfriends watch.


Conclusion: I wish I was a guy who could go out and pull a different woman almost every night. I really am envious of those guys. I am just not good looking enough among other things. Oh well at least I’ve still got my hookers, and I am not stuck in some sexless marriage !!!

[Euro100]

I respectfully disagree with your post below. I do not at all envy the guys that score amateur women in bars. Having sex with pros is much preferable. I am saying this after being in the other camp for a long time. I have had some successes and some failures when going to bars and trying to pick up regular women. In particular when I traveled to different countries is was easier to work this. Some women are attracted by foreigners. This was/is in particular true for me in South America. Women there really dig men with blue eyes and blond hair; so it always has been relatively easy to get laid down there.

However, here is the big problem: often it is hard to get rid of them after the deed. This is where it is preferable to be with pros. We pay the women not necessarily to sleep with us, but we pay them to make sure that they leave without complaining and getting clingy.

Now I almost always go for the pros and the sure thing. Here and there I try my luck with amateurs, but in the end they are usually more expensive than the pros, once you add up all the costs and headaches. ;)

euro

[Snake27]

Wan King, you made some interesting observations. From what I've seen, there are very few men 30+ who are playboys. I've met a few, but they are rare, and I'm not one of them. As you said, stunning good looks are crucial to making a playboy.

Like a lot of men, sometimes I just want to F&%K with no strings attached. For whatever reason (and I have my scientific theory but I won't explain it here) women are less likely to feel that way, though a small percentage are indeed nymphomaniacs -- and some of those turn pro ! As a slightly older guy who is basically average looking (maybe above average "for my age"), I find it much more efficient to just pay for it occassionally. And by "occassionally" I mean it's a part-time leisure activity for me.

In order to maximize my pleasure, I do the following: 1) I work hard to stay in shape. I don't have control over my genetics but I do control my diet and exercise regimen. Of course, I stay in shape for lots of other reasons too.; 2) I am clean (i.e. I take a bath) and practice safe sex; 3) I am generous, kind and courteous to all escorts.

Doing those things greatly increases my chances of getting at least a positive response from the escorts and possibly having the desirable and elusive GFE ("girlfriend experience"). Now, some girls will always be cold-hearted hustlers and hence no fun and a waste of $$. But a certain percentage (which no doubt depends on the guy) can get turned on and even be "freaks". Those wonderful episodes are what keep me in the game.

[Tommasini]

I hear and fully agree with you!

[Alex Rock]

I have a good friend who believe it or not is in his late sixties, but he does the same i.e. 1) works hard to stay in shape.2) Is very clean and well groomed 3) Is generous, kind and courteous to all females including escorts.

Believe it or not I've seen him pull some great freebies - like singers in jazz bar, that all the younger guys drool over. He has a fun, charming style, buys them drinks, compliments them. Maybe they like his fatherly appeal, maybe it's his style, but he's less shy about approaching great looking girls than younger guys who seem to try to act cool..

He enjoys paid for sex and has had some great long time girlfriends in their 20's who are not working girls. Maybe they see him as a potnetial sugar daddy, but they seem to really get into the romantic style and fun he gives them, which I think younger guys can't seem to pull off the same way.

[Snake27]

Yes, Alex, I forgot to mention that a happy, charming personality can work wonders.

But back to the topic (morality of ....): This has probably been said before, but here's my take. If a man is single and has no dependents, there is NO moral problem with adult prostitution. Who is he hurting ? Even if he puts himself at some risk, he should be educated on how to mitigate those risks. In a legal environment, like Germany, everyone knows how to manage the risks, and both clients and escorts enjoy legal protection. In an illegal environment like the USA the risks and expenses are sadly much higher.

Now if a man has a "significant other" (wife/gf/whatever), it becomes more tricky. I'd almost agree with those who'd say prostitution should be avoided in that case, but I think it is not always realistic. At least when compared to having a love affair, sex with a prostitute is preferable because there are typically no emotional ties.

One of the biggest problems is the risk of giving a STD to one's S.O. without her knowing -- it's less of problem if one is informing the S.O. of one's activities, but that's usually not the case, I think. This is a hard problem to solve, but I can at least suggest frequent health tests and full awareness and practice of safe sex procedures. But the risks are not zero unless you're getting a handjob while wearing a condom from a woman in a full-body spacesuit.:)

A second potential problem is the risk of spending too much money. This is like the problem of gambling. As with anything else, moderation is the key. I recommend spending no more than 2% of income on this leisure activity.

My 2 cents on morality.

[George90]

I missed that article, but I agree with it 100%. You would think that the war on terrorism, our undefended birders, and the unsecure ports, that our government could find more productive things to do with law enforcement than police our sex lives.

[Rock Dog]

There was a man named Pierre Trudeau. He was the prime minister of Canada a long time ago and once he said something that made a lot of sense.

I quote: "The government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation."

He said that over 30 years ago and it makes as much sense today as it did then.

Rock

[George90]

There was a man named Pierre Trudeau. He was the prime minister of Canada a long time ago and once he said something that made a lot of sense.

I quote: "The government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation."

He said that over 30 years ago and it makes as much sense today as it did then.

Rock

A long time ago?????? Wasn't he PM for almost 20 years starting in 1967? I remember him being the PM in the early 1980's. That is only 20 years ago.

[Rock Dog]

Well, 20 years ago is a long time to me. The early 80's was 25 years ago now.... and I'm pretty sure the comment I quoted was made over 30 years ago.

I was just a kid back then so it seems like a long time for me. But even if I was 60 years old right now, that would still be half a lifetime ago. Fair enough?

It's funny, but sometimes those days seem more advanced and enlighted than the way things are now. Back then it was free love and man on the moon. Today we've got sexually repressive laws, sexual harrassment and censorship disguised as political correctness.

Doesn't sound much like progress to me.

Rock

[Genius]

.....It's funny, but sometimes those days seem more advanced and enlighted than the way things are now. Back then it was free love and man on the moon. Today we've got sexually repressive laws, sexual harrassment and censorship disguised as political correctness.

Doesn't sound much like progress to me.

RockUnfortunately the era of free love wasn't all that enlightened. Talk to any of the women who during the "free love" period of their lives had some STD (most are w/o symptoms) and ended up with scarring of their fallopian tubes and not able to have kids when they wanted that in their lives. Also HPV and cervical cancer - something like >90% are directly related. Finally, the crowning touch is HIV. Without sexual promiscuity this plague may not have been possible or maybe have been reduced or at least delayed and manageable.

There is an expression "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch". Perhaps free love's price may be much higher than we thought.

[ManonsanBoy]

The first time I paid for sex, I was 21. It was in Bangkok. I am now over 50. I have had sex with over 1000 women and all but 15 I have paid for. Here are my observations over the 32 years I have indulged.

Commercial sex is getting better. I think the society attitude towards commercial sex is more tolerant than before and there is less corruption, especially in the western countries.

The worst place for commercial sex is USA; tough, cold and expensive.

The greatest pretense is probably Argentina and if you have time, probably the most elegant.

Commercial sex keeps a lot of people above the poverty line. It gives some a start. It also kills a proportion, most from drugs. Chicken or egg? There is a woman in Bangkok who is worth at least 50 million USD. She got her start in the early 70's servicing Vietnam R & R. She was one of the first sex workers I banged. Somehow, we kept in contact over the years. We still have sex but I have stopped paying 20 years ago. She said she had sex with over 1000 men over 10 years.

In places like China right now, commercial sex is very much underestimated. For example, in a brothel, all activity may be captured in statistics like electricity, rent etc but the most important part, the cash transaction between man and girl is not. Given the massive scale of the industry,there is probably a decimal point there in their GDP figure.

Around 50 % of the woman I have banged at least have a physiological response (their vagina dilate, as do their ass holes, they take short breaths etc; moans are mostly fake) to the sex and around 10 % could not have been faking the enjoyment. I get spontaneous hugs or kisses from around 20 %. I always treat them gently and affectionately.

I am all for the commercial sex industry unless it is forced. In that case, those who force it should be lined up against the wall and shot.

[George90]

Great post, MB.

Can you tell us more about your experiences around the world? What were the best countries for you? The best cities? What type of women gave the best service? Younger? Older? Had kids at home? Didn't have kids yet? Kept their work a secret? Didn't keep it a secret? Was religion a factor? Was race/ethnicity a factor? How much impact did money have on the things they were agreed (or didn't agree) to do?

Thanks in advance.

[Bimbo Boy]

...

The worst place for commercial sex is USA; tough, cold and expensive.

The greatest pretense is probably Argentina and if you have time, probably the most elegant.

Commercial sex keeps a lot of people above the poverty line. It gives some a start. It also kills a proportion, most from drugs. Chicken or egg?

...

Around 50 % of the woman I have banged at least have a physiological response (their vagina dilate, as do their ass holes, they take short breaths etc; moans are mostly fake) to the sex and around 10 % could not have been faking the enjoyment. I get spontaneous hugs or kisses from around 20 %. I always treat them gently and affectionately.

I am all for the commercial sex industry unless it is forced. In that case, those who force it should be lined up against the wall and shot.

I have a more limited experience than yours, but I agree completely with what you say.

[Sasha Coffee]

To put a moral standard on prostitution is like a putting a morality standard on a used car sales person. It just doesn't work.

Its a victimless crime in a what is now a violent world.

To take away a womans right to do with her body as she pleases and tell her and her clients that it is illegal is ridiculous. There is no proof that prostitution leads to the decay of the client or society. In fact for some strange reason its seems to be the working girls themselves that bear the brunt of the damage.

I believe that more countries should follow the lead of Holland, New Zealand and other countries that have legalised this business. Its amazing how a legal brothel in a country that allows prostitution will be owned by a respectable business person. This in turn means thats the staff who work there will be of a better quality, provide a better service. I think that is both far more sensible and morally mature.

Anyway thats my two cents worth. From a working girl who loves her job is proud of what she does and has provided a service and put a smile on alot of peoples faces.

[Rubber Nursey]

Welcome, Sasha! It's always nice to smell sweet perfume amongst all this testosterone every now and then. :)

[Artisttyp]

A friend of mine put it this way.

" Would working the rice patties for 12 hours a day be more humane."

[Sinanju Master]

I remember reading a story in a major newspaper about an Iraqi woman whose husband had died as a result of the violence (her hubby was an innocent bystander) and she now had to provide for her kids as a single mom. As a result of oppressive Islamic laws (redundant statement) she basically couldn't work and no man would marry her. She had to resort to prostitution (she was as discreet as she could be, occasioanally catering to American GI's) and some nosey religious zealot walked up to her and started quoting the Koran, basically telling her that she had to accept her fate and let her kids starve instead of taking the initiative and keeping them fed. It's bullshit like THAT which makes me boil at the hypocrisy of the "devout". If you drive such consenting behavior underground, it'll FIND a way to thrive out of the public eye. I could NEVER understand why some will try to FORCE their views on others instead of living their own lives and setting an example they want to set for their own children instead of bashing a Koran or Bible over another's head...

[Dolphin12]

... I think the society attitude towards commercial sex is more tolerant than before and there is less corruption, especially in the western countries.

Commercial sex keeps a lot of people above the poverty line. It gives some a start. It also kills a proportion, most from drugs.

I am all for the commercial sex industry unless it is forced...

Good call MB, and I would say that there is a hughe advantage for our own wallet too: As far as my exprience goes: at the end of the day the most expensive services are the non pro services. This matters all over the world. Africa, asia and at home. And marriage is the ultimate financial overkill. Go pro or go broke !

[Alex Rock]

Actually the bible has many instances of prostitution, and it's not frowned upon. Drinking is OK too. It's OK to sleep with other non married women and prostitutes, but not OK to sleep with another man's wife.

[Alex Rock]

To add to a couple of posts here. It seems people - guys and women who make friends with working girls get to understand they can be great friends and often more understanding than hung-up "so called normal people. Some do it for choice - and they should be respected for it. Others for survival or because they've been forced into it - they need help.

It those who have problems with themselves that look down on those girls and don't respect them

Look at all the hypocrisy! Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives, Labor, presidents, priests (with boys) and even a they all act so holier than thou - but then they get found out and get so shamed. How different it would be if we all admit we like sex and the people who choose to sell it are providing a service we like.

[ManonsanBoy]

Great post, MB.

Can you tell us more about your experiences around the world? What were the best countries for you? The best cities? What type of women gave the best service? Younger? Older? Had kids at home? Didn't have kids yet? Kept their work a secret? Didn't keep it a secret? Was religion a factor? Was race/ethnicity a factor? How much impact did money have on the things they were agreed (or didn't agree) to do?

Thanks in advance.


The best scenes at the moment are southern China, Thailand, Philippines.

There is an endless supply of poor, eager farm girls in southern China. They come from all parts of China to the factories but from there, it is only a short step to the sex industry. They earn 5 to 20 times what they can from factory work. Usually, girls in this industry are 18-25. These women have also fanned out across most of Asia and increasingly the world. Very cheap for what you get.

Thailand was like China now about 25 years ago. It is now more mature literally; as prosperity comes, the girls are older but there are still a lot around 20. Better because it is foreigner friendly most of the time. It is not easy in China if you are black. Big fat 60 yo with 18 yo GF in places like Pattaya is one of life's more bizarre visions. Cheap.

Philippines is more user friendly if you speak only English. Otherwise comments apply same as Thailand.

Rio and BA are very good cities for mongering but the style is different to Asia. The women are much more proactive. Thery also tend to be a little older. I spent a week with a classy lady in BA not that long ago. I swear at the end of the week, I was better mannered and cultured because she was so herself. But it costs were high. We went to concert, opera etc etc. She was also a striking 35 yo who hung around at 5 star lobbies.

I liked Prague 10 years ago. Now it is overran by Russian Mafia. Beautiful city. Spain has a big industry. Barcelona in summer is a riot. Lots of latin americans there.

I personally do not like the look of girls from Mexico down to above Rio. So I do not go for them. Just personal thing. USA is a waste of time. If you have a LOT of money, places like LA has a lot of action but I do not like the style.

In general, I prefer women who have not had children. I have seldom met any muslim sex worker.

Personally, I like f**king Asian rather than Nordic size women. I am over 6 feet tall but som e of the northern European and Americans are huge.

[Sinanju Master]

I didn't mean the occurences in the bible (I'll be the first to admit I've read very little of it, but I DO know a lot of fornication went on), I meant the present, and the so-called devout of Islam and Christianity, who would take away my choice to "do" or NOT "to do".

[Alex Rock]

I agree - it's the holier than thou bigotism and hypocrisy that's the problem.

[Sasha Coffee]

To add to a couple of posts here. It seems people - guys and women who make friends with working girls get to understand they can be great friends and often more understanding than hung-up "so called normal people. Some do it for choice - and they should be respected for it. Others for survival or because they've been forced into it - they need help.

It those who have problems with themselves that look down on those girls and don't respect them

Reading this post made me smile.

Thank you Alex for a very insightful and correct observation.

I have been a working girl for some time and I have to admit that the only time I have found people to have an issue with my occupation is when they have an issue with their own sexual identity or performance or want to preach a religious moral stand point. (BORING)

In saying that I have also found that my best female friends have never been in the sex industry and some of my best male friends have been previous clients. The male friends not because I look at them as easy mark for a bit of extra cash ( i am quite capable and financially secure enough) but because our business relationship has been built on trust and mutual respect and slowly developed over time to be a friendship.

For the world to stop putting a stigma on the sex industry the sex industry has to stop behaving like we deserve it. In any circumstances people will treat you the way they perceive you. As a working girl if you appear to hate what you do and have no respect for yourself or your clients this is exactly how the world will see you. lacking respect and not deserving respect.

However if you have a sense of pride in your occupation, treat it seriously and like any other job. The people in your life will treat it exactly the same way.

I believe that as long as governments and religious bigots keep this industry illegal it will always attract the wrong sort of providers and pimps. I will be forever grateful to the New Zealand government to see the sense in legalising my industry. They somehow had enough brains to realise that the longer it is illegal the more that the gangs and so called want to be pimps will try and control it. As soon as it is legal you will find that these people have no interest anymore as there is no way for them to launder their filthy drug money and gives the prostitues rights under employment law and so forth.

[Pedrassi]

Well Sasha the problem with making the sex industry legal is that the government then piles regulation and taxes on it.

The legal brothels in the US offer an expensive, mechanic service with no perks. Ask one of the working girls there about BBBJ or DFK and they'll laugh in your face.

I presume the situation is similar in New Zealand?

[Sasha Coffee]

I don't think I've ever laughed in a clients face unless they've told me a hiliarious joke.

BBBJ I wouldn't laugh if I was asked at that either. In fact I've been known to give a few. The problem with these that here in New Zealand the PC police have deemed them unsafe so therefore illegal. But in my experience if you build up a bit of a relationship with the girl she will normally oblige.

Its about respect. I respect my clients I find 95% of them to be good fun and intelligent men. From them I have learned about a wide range of subjects. Even learnt how to play the stock market. (mmmmmmm). I have learnt about different cultures, places and lifestyles.

I figure as long as treat them with respect and courtesy and provide an experience and service that they can recommend and be comfortable paying for it. There is no problem with what we do as consenting adults.

I hope don't come across as stuck up or difficult. I am proud to be a working girl pride myself on giving a good service. I do understand though that isn't the norm and to often clients are left feeling ripped off and belittled.

[Alex Rock]

I've asked other people this question. If you have a boyfriend, how different is sex with your boyfriend vs sex with a client.? And could you have a boyfriend who worked as a sex worker - would it bother you?

Reason I ask is; I had a working girl (escort) as a girlfriend, naively not knowing what work she did, then when I found out, I got all screwed up. I couldn't take it and couldn't accept her explanation that she saw it as just a job and sex with her bf was different from clients.

After talking with other working girls who have boyfriends, I found it's not unusual for working girls to have boyfriends who don't know their jobs, and some have "working guys" as boyfriends who do know and accept their work, but the girls generally don't seem to be emotionally attached to those guys.

Flipping the issue to the other side, many guys have sex with working girls or even "freebies" outside their marriages (or steady relationships) and it doesn't threaten their relationships with their wives at all. Why shouldn't the other side be the same?

[Sasha Coffee]

The boyfriend question.

I don't currently have one, but thats because I came out of a 8 year relationship 6 months ago and I don't want another relationship at present. Did I tell him what I did, obviously yes. Was the sex different, NO NO NO NO. not unless you count using condoms. Now I'm not sure if thats just me but the physical aspect of the sex was no different, its the emotional connection that is different. Even then, you can have an emotional bond with a long term client. Sex is sex no matter where its from. Lets face it men have sex with different partners to their wives and it doesn't affect their marriage. So why can't a working girl.

As for the question of dating a sex worker, could I, would I, ofcourse. Could I handle it, yes. Its only sex. I know I can handle I watched my ex have sex woman, it didn't bother me.

Just before you all jump on the band wagon and say ex, and i bet I know what split them up, It wasn't my job, it was taking each other for granted being to busy for each other, and basically we were just over the whole relationship scene. lucky for us both, we split at the right time and have been able to remain friends.

I snickered at that question, cause you are right, working girls will not put up with their boyfriend being unfaithful, and they use the excuse its only work to condone their own actions. Well thats a lie, its impossible to have sex with the amount of clients we have sex with and not enjoy some of it. Sooner or later someone is going to push the right buttons and your going to enjoy it. Why shouldn't we, every job has it perks.

[Sasha Coffee]

Alex you say you have spoken to working girls who don't tell their boyfriends what they do, and that you've been in this situation yourself and didn't handle it well

Question: If she had told you openly and honestly what she did would you have dated her?

I hate the thought of working girls not telling their partners what they do for a job. But I understand the thought process that the girls use.

If I don't tell, we will date me. The future planning is not there. Cause eventually the male will find out, then the girl promises to stop working. (LIE LIE LIE) then the male doesn't trust her. This pattern carries on for about 2-3 months then finally the man runs for the hills.

Surely if she was honest and told him from the start, equiped him with knowledge and the biggest thing answered his questions honestly. Trust the man to be mature and intelligent enough to make their decision. If the decision is I don't want to date a working girl, thats his call. Lying to him about what you do is not fair. Its disrespectful and pathethic. How can you hold your head up while your whole relationship is a lie.

There we go. I think its only fair to give any prospective partner an honest description of your life.

[Sinanju Master]

I gotta admit that in this particular discussion (dating a working girl) I'd be the personification of close-mindedness. I used to know a stripper (we were college classmates and friends), but I don't think she was NEARLY as open minded as Sascha. If I were involved with such a woman, there's a strong possibility that even though she may look at it as a "job" and numb herself to the process, she MAY come across a guy who'd be wittier, more charming, better-looking, and god forbid, a WIZARD in bed. That would be sufficient cause for the wheels to turn in her head with the purpose of eventually giving me my walking papers. I couldn't deal with that pressure on a daily basis. That being said, I couldn't give her the "Keys to the city".

[Sasha Coffee]

Believe me you are right. Do you know how many men I've met that were wittier, smarter, better looking and better in bed, than my ex. Well it numbers in the 100s. The difference was when its all said and done they would have their own faults.

The question really becomes is the grass always greener on the other side of the fence. NO. It never really is.

So as often as clients say Whats a nice girl like you doing working in this industry. The reply is whats a nice guy like you doing using sex workers.

Yes I'm open minded, but not entirely stupid. I have looked at many clients and thought their wives, girlfriends etc are lucky to have them. But then are they, after all life can't be all roses for them or they wouldn't be there shagging me.

The basis of a good relationship is always honesty, I suppose that was my point if you're dating a working girl. And I say that knowing thats its normally the working girl who is the liar.

In my entire working career I have only known two men (one was my ex and one co-workers husband) who have honestly understood and accepted the working girl. I understand totally the difficulty in dating a working girl and to man considering it. I would say don't. You will get hurt.

But also if you have the personal strength, and patience of a saint to do it. I take my hat off to you.

Also I have noticed that the best working girls and most financially successful ones ( i mean the ones that have something to show for all that money and hard work) have the support of a understanding and clever man in the wings ( I don't mean a pimp). The only reason I am financially secure and have a clue how to balance my cheque book and pay for my Amex is because I was taught to look after my money and invest it carefully.

[Pedrassi]

What about DFK? Is that a regular practice in New Zealand?

As to the topic of being "proud of one's work" I find that difficult to understand. Sure enough, prostitution does have its perks and there are occasionally men who can give pleasure.

But being a working girl one has to have sex with all clients, irrespective of their age and physical appearance. Now to carry out something so intimate with every guy that appears can indeed be very repulsive and degradating.

I've read a couple of articles on that matter. Many prostitutes wash themselves vigorously in the shower after having sex with a particularly disgusting man. It can be extremely traumatising and cause deep emotional damage to the girl.

No working girl I've been with has given any signs of such behaviour. The vast majority treated me affectionately and gave me DFK, and some even gave me BBBJ purely out of their own initiative (not something I usually ask for). And yes, one even asked me what I was doing in such an industry and was genuinely surprised I didn't have a girlfriend.

But given that I'm in my very early 20s, I'm hardly the typical stereotype for a client. I presume most would be middle-aged men trying to liven up their sex-life. I am aware my behaviour is not the most ethical, even treating the girls with the utmost respect and consideration (and trying to give pleasure as well as receive it). I'm taking advantage of their personal pitfalls to satisfy my own desires. But given society's abject failure to cater to my own physiological needs, the distinction between who's a victim in this relationship and who's not may not be as clear-cut as it may first seem.

To go to developing countries as a sex tourist is a considerably more morally dubious proposition. To have sex with girls who do so solely in order to survive remains one of the most telling situations about the cruelty of humanity.

[Alex Rock]

sasha coffee,

you hit the nail on the head when you said honesty is the key. i couldn’t agree more.

to answer your question, “no”, i wouldn’t have dated and got into the relationship with the working girl if she had told me up front. but subsequently, i found i could accept it with another working girl who was honest and open up front from the very beginning.

with the girl who wasn’t honest up front, things were great for a while, i fell for her and she was really nice to me, but gradually things made me suspicious. at first, i believed her explanations, but then more and more things happened till i confronted her and the whole thing blew up. the deceit was what hurt. she decided to tell me everything and brought 2 of friends around for emotional support. one was a working girl, one was an old schoolfriend who didn’t know what she did till that night. it was devastating for me to hear her tell me everything and answer my questions honestly. one thing that shocked me was how much money she was making from a combination of regular high paying clients, and guys who would call when they came to town. i was also shocked to realize how little i knew about the world that working girls live in and how the business works.

after breaking up for a few weeks we tried to get together, on the basis she’d be honest. i found i could handle it as long as i knew where she was and what time she’d be back. i couldn’t handle it if she didn’t come home all night and wouldn't be reachable till noon the next day. i would wake up with all kinds of images going on in my head. i was jealous and crazy. i found i could accept her having sex if it was over quick and she didn’t enjoy it, but i found it harder if it lasted a long time and she enjoyed it. something she said was she would sometimes give guys “gfe” to get them to buy her expensive presents. she’d only do this with guys she thought were nice to her. she’d sometimes come home with expensive watches, fur jackets or handbags that clients had bought for her the “morning after”. to try to “help me” understand, she arranged for me to have sex with one of her friends to demonstrate she had no hang ups about me enjoying sex with other women as long as i did it with her knowledge. i still had some hang-ups. we eventually broke up but have stayed good friends.

i was working things out and realizing many of the hang-ups were inside my own head, but honesty, trust and deceit were factors.

i had a good friendship with another working girl and talked to her about my thoughts and hang ups. one day she phoned and asked me to be her boyfriend but said she would working most nights and i was free to do what i wanted while she was working, as long as i told her. she was incredibly open and matter of fact and had absolutely no hang ups about me going with other girls. the honesty was incredibly refreshing. i never felt threatened or jealous, but you might say maybe i didn’t love her. her terms were simple – honesty and trust we’d be together one or 2 days a week and we’d be there for each other if either needed someone. we drifted apart, because i decided to look for a different type of partner. i was totally honest about it and we had a friendly “re-adjustment” of the relationship. we’re still close and i find she is someone i can trust totally, i think because the basis of honesty was there. she also told me she liked having someone she could be totally open with. in a way it was therapeutic for her not to play games or as she said to “wear masks”.

from my experience, you have to start being honest from the very beginning. it’s not easy to come clean if you’ve started to paint a false image of someone you are not or if you hide parts of yourself. for guys, it’s not easy to admit they like “sleaze”, porn or “one night stands” if they have pretended to be “mr. nice” for a long time.

working girls are no different from non working girls. some working girls make great girlfriends (and i assume wives) if the honesty and caring for each other is there. that is no different from women in other professions. others don’t, but that’s no different to other women.

sasha, curious. do you have any hang ups? i assume you’d not be threatened if you man had sex with other women, but would an emotional attachment be threatening?

[Petemcc]

Welcome, Sasha! It's always nice to smell sweet perfume amongst all this testosterone every now and then. :)I have just started reading Sasha's postings, and was almost thinking it was Rubber under a different name, however I can see the difference in the styles.

You are both incredibly bright, articulate and considerate women, and I hope you can continue to add the female perspective to this forum, especially the female working girl perspective. The ethos of this forum is the exchange of information for paying for sex, and let's face it, the bottom line is that women are women, and you all think the same- or at least you all think differently than we do.

I think that most men here really want to have meaningful sex with working girls, not just use her as a fuck bag, so any insight you can give us into the thoughts, fears, hopes and expectations of a female sex worker are definitely welcome.
Keep up the good work girls- you have my profound respect and admiration.

Pete

[Sinanju Master]

If the geography of the playing field were laid out up front for me (being honest about her status as a working girl) it would be much less traumatic than if I were to discover outright deceit, only later to hear her tell me that she'll be honest "from now on". The lack of trust would be a HUGE weight that I couldn't banish from my mind. If she were honest from the get go, it would test the boundaries of my worldview. If it still were an unpalatable situation for me, THEN it would be MY problem, not hers. Gee, I dunno... this conversation has me actually THINKING about this type of situation if ever I came across it...

[Rubber Nursey]

Thanks, Pete! I can assure you, you'll never catch me posting under another name :) but you're right, it is great to have another woman posting here.

I don't know that women all think differently than men do (and we certainly don't all think alike!) Sasha and I will surely have different opinions on many things - I've always made it clear over the years that everything I've said in here has been my own opinion or my own personal experience and doesn't necessarily reflect the opinions or experiences of every working girl (or woman in general). I guess we will have found ourselves in similar situations and Sasha and I appear to have similar work ethics and positive views on sex work, but every girl's experience of the industry is different.

Another thing worth keeping in mind is that Sasha and I are from countries with comparatively 'empowered' sex industries, with national sex worker organisations (Scarlet Alliance and NZPC), local sex worker networks/projects and ready access to specialised education and support. Our experiences of sex work are probably not going to be the same as that of, for example, a young Indian girl sold into a brothel by her parents. In the same way, men who have experienced that 'other side' of prostitution, should not tar us all with the same brush, either. When we tell you 'how it it' for us, as individual sex workers, then that's how it is. It may not be the case for every other working girl out there, but it's OUR truth.

[Rubber Nursey]

As to the topic of being "proud of one's work" I find that difficult to understand.
Why wouldn't she be proud of her work? If she considers herself a professional, enjoys her job and - most importantly - knows that that job is providing something meaningful and beautiful and necessary to somebody else's life (and perhaps to society as a whole), why shouldn't she be proud of that?

I most certainly took pride in my work. As for it occasionally being 'repulsive and degrading' - yes, sometimes I had sex with men that I really didn't enjoy being with. Sometimes I would walk out of the room afterwards and shiver and think 'Oh god, that was awful'. On the VERY odd occasion, it was repulsive (but NEVER degrading - I made the choice to be in the room with those men and, whether I enjoyed it or not, I was still in control the entire time). But in most cases you can always find something nice about a person, whether its something physical, like kind eyes or strong arms or soft skin, or whether it's something about their personality, like their laugh or their gentleness or a sense of mischief in their smile.


I'm taking advantage of their personal pitfalls to satisfy my own desires....To have sex with girls who do so solely in order to survive remains one of the most telling situations about the cruelty of humanity.
When that homeless guy washes your windscreen at the traffic lights for some small change to buy food, do you feel like you're taking advantage of him? What about the girl who was abused and thrown out of home and forced to support herself - do you feel like you're taking advantage of her when she serves you your burger in McDonalds? We all do what we have to do to survive and we are often 'forced' to do jobs that we may not have chosen to do under other circumstances. Sex work offers good money, flexible hours and needs no previous experience or skills, which makes it a viable choice for anyone in a dire financial situation, needing immediate income. It's no better or worse than any other employment option and you, as the consumer, really shouldn't beat yourself up about 'taking advantage' of a sex worker's situation, any more than you would that burger girl or the windscreen washer.

And as for who is the 'victim' in a commercial sex transaction - car manufacturers know that you need a vehicle in order to do your job, so they slug you $60,000 for a new car. Women have to use tampons once a month, so tampon manufacturers keep upping the price and we just have to keep paying it. Who is the 'victim' here? The consumer. If someone has a commodity that others are willing to pay the big bucks for, then it is the CONSUMER who is ultimately taken advantage of. So why is it that in sex work, the SELLER is always seen as the victim? Clients often fork out half their weekly wage or more, for ONE HOUR of a sex worker's time. Who exactly is being victimised here? If anything it's the client - but I don't really see either party as a victim. Sex work is a win-win situation...the client gets the service he needs and the sex worker earns a living. (Of course, if somebody is being forced to participate against their will, that is not sex work, it's a CRIME and should be treated as such).

[Rock Dog]

I'm a bit surprised at some of the comments about guys being unable to accept it if they found out a girl they knew was a "working girl". Huh? It doesn't make sense.... not to me anyways.

I know a lot of these girls from the local massage parlor. Many of them, if not most, have boyfriends, husbands or "significant others" and they seem to be getting along just fine. Some of the more attractive girls are continually having to turn down offers from guys who want to go out with them all the time.

Personally, I enjoy talking with these girls. Out of all women, they seem to be the ones who are most open, honest and most accepting about how guys are. Of course, this is probably because they benefit financially from men's need for variety. Also, because they see a bunch of different guys everyday, so they can't really complain as much when their BF gets a little on the side. Yes, it's true..... that one is business and the other is personal. But for most men, sex is a kind of business so it all works out the same in the end. Working girls seem to have a better grasp of this concept.

Maybe that's why so many guys get attracted to these girls.... it might be because we've found someone who's a little more understanding and accepting than average. Of course there's always the insecure type, who can't stand the idea that "his girl" might be looking at another guys dick... even if it's just for the money. But a lot of guys can appreciate a girl who makes her own money.

I remember there was one girl who used to work at my favorite MP. She would have made an awesome girlfriend. It wouldn't have bothered me one bit if she wanted to keep on working there. I'd have a beautiful girlfriend and I wouldn't have to keep any big secrets about my massage parlor hobby.

Best of both worlds.

Rock

[Alex Rock]

Think about it. Why shouldn’t a working girl choose to provide a better service to her clients and be proud of her work ?

Many working girls seem to prefer regular clients. It’s safer and easier than worrying about new guys who might not want to pay or might have “quirks”. With regular clients they don’t have to compete with other girls, they don’t have a hassle negotiating and they develop friendships. To get regular clients, especially to make them happy, they need to provide top services.

A working girl (friend) went on holiday with me to Thailand. She wanted to see how the service was in the top bathhouses to learn some new services for clients. It was great fun for me to be bathed and sexed by a great looking Thai girl while my friend was watching and chatting with the girl about techniques. She is very proud of her work and considers herself to provide top services. She would also be very explicit about what would turn her on – and ask for it

I’ve been in situations in China, where an experienced girl was teaching a novice. There was no doubt that some girls take a pride in their skills and abilities. They have lots of poetic names for different techniques and build up a repertoire.

Flip it. Don’t we guys like to learn how to be better lovers so we make women happier in bed? I do. Working girls can actually teach you techniques.

[Petemcc]

Yep, right again mate.

What do you think of the situation in Thailand? Is that more like Aus/Nz?

It's strange because even though prostitution is legal in Aus and Nz, and as you said, workers are empowered, there is still a huge stigma, certainally in Australia about prostitutes and prostitution.

The one place I've been to in Thailand, Pattaya- well, it just seems to be so socially accepted and yet, but I could be wrong, these girls have no powers or bodies to protect them.

It is the oldest profession, and has been tolerated throughout time, so I wonder why it is not socially accepted? Is it religeous morals, values or something else?

This may sound like a ridiculous thing to say, but if every city in Aus had a red light area with bars, like a mini Pattaya, and there were thousands of working girls ( and the price gets driven down a bit- just a punter's POV!), there would be a lot more happy and well adjusted men out there!

I remember when I was young, actually I even remember a last year when I was old, going out with mates, in a different city/town to put my charm to the test with the local girls. Naturally I'd fail, and go home depressed and with little self esteem. Imagine if it were like Pattaya. You'd never go home by yourself, girls could earn a bit more cash to help them out, and everyone would be happy. Wouldn't that be heaven? or heaven ii as Pattaya is heaven!

I know it's a very simplistic view, and it's never going to happen, even after 5000 years or more, but I think it's time some societies woke up to themselves.
Again, simplistically, safe sex never hurt anyone, so where is the moral problem? Drug dealers, thieves and the other fuckwits whom like to go around bashing people are the ones who corupt society.
'We don't want our children growing up in a society where women sell themselves, exposing them to moral danger' is a quote I can imagine. Hello, it's the 21 century, moral dangers have gone well beyond sex.

I'm starting to dribble and talk nonsense so I'd better quit while I am almost ahead!
Best regards mate, and keep up the good work.

Pete

[Alex Rock]

I am aware my behaviour is not the most ethical,


It’s great to have two very articulate girls posting here. It’s great for me to read their posts and I hope great for other guys to see their perspectives.

Regarding the concept of ethics and that paying working girls for sex is unethical. If two people willingly enter into a transaction for a service, what’s wrong with that.? I don’t believe it is unethical at all, unless you are hurting someone or someone is forced to do something they are unwilling to do.

Having sex with a girlfriend is OK right? Now, how do you define girlfriend? A girl who is a girlfriend for one month, one week or one night? What difference – ethically - is there; if you buy dinner, give a gift, pretend you might marry her, give her a job, help her get a promotion, or pay some cash?.

With girlfriends or working girls, you can be in a relationship for the time you are together. That can be for an hour, for a night, occasionally or regularly.

Another service that some working girls provide - as Rock Dog seems to agree with - is psychological counseling or just keeping you company. When you’re down or screwed up, they can be great listeners and have perspectives that other girls don’t.

The great thing about going with working girls is that there is no ambiguity. You want sex – you get it. No hassles, no fear of rejection, no moods or sulking, no fear the girl will come up to while you in a public place and scream at you with jealousy if you are with another woman.

Many bible thumpers claim drinking and prostitution, fornication, adultery and polygamy are against the teachings of the bible. Read the bible! And please tell me where it says prostitution is "unethical". It’s full of references to prostitution and fornication. The commandment requires you do not covet another man’s wife. Apart from that it’s OK for men to have sex with prostitutes, maid servants (or slaves – yes – but the word for slave is translated differently in later translations of the bible to be acceptable to modern conservatives).

In nature primates are not monogamous. Bonobos are matriarchal and freely sexual. In humanity, wealthy powerful men have lots of women. Powerful women can also have lots of men. I think we are predominantly monogamous with a tendency to seek sex outside the monogamous bond.

I draw the line at whether a girl is in the business voluntarily or forced into the job. Poor girls who choose go into the profession to change their lots – that’s OK for me - but not as acceptable as girls who choose to make a profession out of it. – We should be respectful to them all. But girls forced into it against their will or controlled by pimps – that’s outside my personally acceptable ethics.

I started out looking down at working girls, and actually I realize now, in some ways I was AFRAID of them. I was afraid of the power they had to get men so easily. I was afraid of my desire for them and my need to pay them to get them. I was proud of my ability to get some girls for free.

I found my view of ethics about this subject change as I got to know working girls – especially when I found my girlfriend was one. As I got closer to some great friends who are working girls, they helped me see thing much more clearly. There’s no right and wrong except what’s inside your own head as long as you don't hurt anyone.

Would you like it if some women wanted to have sex with you from time to time? How about if they were willing to pay you for sex?

[Sinanju Master]

Flip it. Don’t we guys like to learn how to be better lovers so we make women happier in bed? I do. Working girls can actually teach you techniques.

When I was frequenting brothels, I never had the common sense (or balls) to come straight out and ask a sex worker for pointers. I lucked out when two things happened: A] I located my partner's G-Spot and B] I started taking Kung Fu and mapped out a minefield of nerve ending and clusters and tested them out on ANOTHER partner.

[Alex Rock]

I'm a bit surprised at some of the comments about guys being unable to accept it if they found out a girl they knew was a "working girl". Huh? It doesn't make sense.... not to me anyways. Rock, in my case I had a problem because I didn't know my girlfriend was a working girl until I'd been with her for several months. This wasn't just a girl I knew, it was a girl who was living with me most of the time and someone I had developed very strong feelings for. Actually I was crazy about her, she made me very happy. She was super looking, very warm passionate about things and fun to be with. It was the shock of finding out she was sleeping with other men - almost every day - that screwed me up. I was intensely hurt and jealous. I went through 6 weeks of hell trying to deal with it and exploring all the feelings and rationale and trying very hard to deal with it. It's very different when you have strong feelings for someone.

As Sasha said in this thread - working girls can't keep it a secret for long unless they quit their work and when guys find out after the fact, they feel deceived.

In my case, after breaking up with the first working girl girlfriend, I did have a relationship with another working girl where it was all open and honest up front. That was different because there was no deceit and I felt free and unconstrained. We were together because we chose to be. The basis for the relationship was honest with no deceit.

To take your point a little further. It would be great if it was a socially acceptable profession. Why not be able to go to a party or business function and introduce a woman as a professional sex worker? I think we still have a long way to go. I've fanticised about taking a friend to business functions and when people ask her what do you do, she says, "I'm a prostitute".

[Alex Rock]

When I was frequenting brothels, I never had the common sense (or balls) to come straight out and ask a sex worker for pointers. For fun, I tried asking working girls to imagine they had paid me for sex and it was my job to make them feel good instead of them servicing someone. Some girls really like it and get into asking for specific techniques or stroking or biting their favorite spots. Everyone is different, and at different times they like different things. Generally they seem to like someone to be very gentle and slow rather than going straight for it. In other words they usually ask for "BFE" and like to be treated with care.

Funnily enough a couple of girls I did this with came to stay with me for a few days - for a "holiday" - no cash, just a rest.

[Sinanju Master]

For fun, I tried asking working girls to imagine they had paid me for sex and it was my job to make them feel good instead of them servicing someone. Some girls really like it and get into asking for specific techniques or stroking or biting their favorite spots. Everyone is different, and at different times they like different things. Generally they seem to like someone to be very gentle and slow rather than going straight for it. In other words they usually ask for "BFE" and like to be treated with care.


See? It's that kind of "thinking outside the box" that I never experienced when I was younger. I did the BFE and took things slow with my ex after I had learned of the "nerve map" of the human body. The results had the voice in my head saying: "Holy SHIT!! This stuff WORKS!!"

[Sasha Coffee]

well gentleman,

like rubber nursery says the both of us are lucky enough to be in countries that the government has chosen to support the sex worker. pity there are countries in the world you can carry a gun but its illegal to pay for sex.

as for being proud of my job. i see no reason not to be. if people ask me what i do i tell them. by being open and honest about it i have the opportunity to educate and break stereo types. i don't look like the average hooker either. i've always found most people to be curious about the industry. funnily enough they have serious questions and concerns. so like anything education is the key.

as alex rock says lots of girls prefer to work with a regular clientelle basis. and to get these regular clientelle you have to provide a better service. you are a smart man. this is how i prefer to work. not because its easier (cause sometimes its so mentally draining, more than physical). but because when i go to work on a monday i want to know that i'm earning at least 1500 for the week. you can't guarantee that money in a city the size of christchurch (300,000) without having regular clients.

i am like any other business and have a target market. my target market does not include doing the hard hours of drunks late on a friday and saturday night. to smart for that. this is the regular clientele are wonderful they know how to treat you, they know what you expect and vice versa and its a comfortable trusting relationship.

as for some clients being repulsive of course they are, but i'm sure my dentist, doctor, beauty therapist, electrician etc has repulsive clients also. the fact that i get personal with them has no bearing on it. besides i only have to spend 1 or 2 hrs with them, some poor woman probably married the beast.

[Alex Rock]

This thread is technically about morality, but I have a couple of questions for Rubber Nursey and Sasha. Please read my comments and preface below before answering.
Q 1: How do working girls get affected by their work? Positively and negatively?
Q 2: How long after giving up the profession do girls return to some concept of so-called “normality”?
Q 3: We all seem to live life as different personalities. How many working girls do you know that can balance their working life (past or present) with the rest of their life.?

Let me preface those questions. Firstly I don’t mean that working girls are not “normal”. One of my good friends told me that after time it’s harder for some working girls to enjoy sex – and that some working girls don’t get wet anymore so they use lubricants or saliva to help. She told me it takes 2 months after giving up for girls to be able to respond “normally” to guys. Some become mercenary and see almost all men as “machines” that pay for sex and that sex is something that is sold. They expect men to pay for everything and even going out for a drink they expect to be paid. Some can't trust men and think that all guys are untrustworthy or unreliable.

Some girls new to the profession, get over their initial phobias and hang-ups and seem to really enjoy sex – they get wet and excited - for a while, but then after a time they get jaded. I’ve experienced that with a new girl at a MP, she really enjoyed herself at first but over time her enthusiasm visibly declined. Maybe routinely serving clients even when she was tired or not feeling great dulled the excitement.

Some older professionals, like my close friend told me that they try to teach new girls to differentiate between clients and boyfriends and not to use drugs. However they tell me some new girls – switch into a new uninhibited life and “go crazy for a while”. They will escort for money, they’ll pick up guys for one night stands and they will even hire young male prostitutes. Some clients take drugs and like to screw all night – maybe 2-3 guys will screw each girl – most pros don’t go for those clients, but some girls will.
From your posts and from some experiences of my own, I’ve found that working girls can enjoy sex with clients and they may or may not develop some attachments.

One girl who works in a hotel MP, told me she and some girls gradually get more turned on throughout the day and might have been aroused but not satisfied by one client, but then they can get more aroused with the second client and by the time they are with the fourth client they can get it off and come much more easily. Another told me it depends totally on the guy.

Preface Q3 above by the acceptance that guys live different lives too – fathers, husbands, business friends, tennis partners and sex clients. In one role they switch off the other roles. I’d argue it takes different people to fulfill all the needs we have.

Would appreciate your insights if you have time.

[Sasha Coffee]

This is where you all will see the Rubber Nursery and I aren't the same person. I will bet our answer vary quite a bit.

I can only answer these question on my experience personally and what I have observed.

Question 1. Postive and negative. Lets start with the positive, its far more fun. For me personally being in the sex industry has given me confidence. The confidence to deal with men, it has given me a huge understanding of men both their physical and emotional thought processes and feelings. It has taught me that no two people will ever be the same and no one person will be the same twice. It has taught me to treat everyone as I find them, don't judge. I have learnt to be open minded and respectful of other peoples opinions. I have learnt if you can dream of a sexual situation or particular kink someone out there is into it and someone out there will cater to it. I have learnt how to handle money, pay my bills, get a mortgage, invest money. I have learnt how to spend money (quickly and huge sums). I have travelled and done things that most people would never get the opportunity to do. I have met people that have opened my eyes and my mind. I have learnt learnt learnt learnt. I have formed bonds with women that no office lady will every form with even her bestest friend. I have discussed things with these women that would make most women blush and faint, and I have discussed them with no prejudice and been heard and listened with no prejudice. I have laughed and laughed. thats the best bit. I have laughed and lived with no regrets. I have not missed and opportunity to experience life and the people in it.

The negative. The amount of money that girls earn that will never be used to make their lives better. The amount of drugs that I have seen some consume and ruin their lives with. The way most working girls are unprofessional and just huge scam artists that make a used car salesman look like a angel. I hate seeing people get ripped off.

Question 2 Normality

This one is a hard one for me. I am still actively working. I can only answer on my observations. I think for everyone it is different. For 1 lady I can think of it was instant. She normalised, I think this happened for her because she had prepared herself well. She had invested her money and was financially secure enough to make it work. She also bought a business and was kept busy. For others I don't think they normalise till they have no choice and are basically to old for the industry. Even then they tend to become receptionists.

In saying this I think of myself as pretty normal. I live a peaceful life outside of my work and don't do drugs or any of the things you would stereotypically expect of me. I take pride in being a normal working mother. (remember only the poor have morals. the rich are to busy making money) To be honest I could move in next door to you and it would never cross your mind that you were living next door to a tart.

Question 3. Balancing life. Well I think balancing life is something everyone strives to do. Balance between work, home, social etc. We all try and get and equal balance. I don't really think anyone succeeds totally. We all work to hard, forget to smell the roses. For me I balance my life by working afternoon early evening. I find this works best for me. It gives me balance. I don't feel a need to balance two different personalities (I'm not schizophrenic). The working girl me is the same as the other me. I've never known a secretary to balance her secretary personality and her home one. For me if I tried to have two personalities they would of locked me up in a looney bin by now. When I'm working different aspects of my personality will be more pronounced eg my sexuality, but they are always there. Like everyone different behaviours are acceptable at different times. to fit into society you must learn what behaviours are acceptable at what times. Thats just what everyone does. You can't pinch the secretary's butt in the office but if shes your wife you can do it in the kitchen at home. Thats the balancing act in my opinion.

Hope that helps Alex.

Its really nice to see that you are taking an interest in this side of the ledger. Any questions will be openly and honestly answered, but always based solely on my opinion (which is known to be debated often)

[Sasha Coffee]

Ok the DFK. Mmmmmmm. This is a toughy.

This is an personal thing and relates to hygiene. I personally don't have a hard and fast rule on it. Most of the girls I know in the industry don't either. Its a case by case situation.

I am not DFK with roger rotton breath. Same as I wouldn't expect anyone to do that if my breath stunk (yuk yuk yuk)

But given the right situation of course I will.

[Rubber Nursey]

Alex,

Q 1: How do working girls get affected by their work? Positively and negatively?
Qualifier: every working girl has different experiences of the industry and I can only answer for myself (although, I know in this case that I'm answering for a huge number of girls that I've worked with, as a working girl and as an activist).
Positives:
- Financial security and independence.
- I learned a lot about how other people tick, both male and female. I am now a much better judge of character, my intuition/insticts are VERY finely tuned and think I was given a unique insight into the needs/desires/insecurities/etc of others, especially men.
- I learned a whole lot about my own sexuality. Sex work gave me the freedom to experiment with things that I maybe wouldn't have had the confidence to try in my private life. Every client you see (and other workers you do doubles with, etc) has different turn-ons and different techniques, and you take a little bit of that away with you every time.
- It gave me confidence in my body, my brain and my sexual ability.

Negatives:
- I discovered what it was like to be black, gay, HIV+, a junkie, or any other marginalised group in our society. I experienced hatred and condemnation from religious groups, loss of human rights and civil liberties by Governments and police and general disgust and revulsion from the 'Average Joe' in our community. I've been insulted, stereotyped and discriminated against, in the media, in law and in everyday life. And even as an ex-worker, I still experience those things. HOWEVER, I can't class that entirely as a negative, because those experiences lead to my involvement in the sex worker rights movement (my greatest passion) and gave me a better understanding of, and compassion for, minority/marginalised groups.
- Living with the constant fear of someone finding out you are/were a worker and using that information to destroy your life.

Q 2: How long after giving up the profession do girls return to some concept of so-called “normality”?
I don't feel any different now than I did when I was working. I don't believe that sex work had any negative impact on my sexuality, then or now.

Q 3: We all seem to live life as different personalities. How many working girls do you know that can balance their working life (past or present) with the rest of their life?
I'm not really sure what you mean by this question. Balancing work with life is balancing work with life, whether you work in a brothel or in a supermarket.

[Rubber Nursey]

Pete (this reading back looking for Regular Member posts is tricky stuff!)

I can't speak with any real authority on the Thai scene, although I do have some communication with the activist network in Thailand (FYI: www.empowerfoundation.org) I think you'll find that Thai sex workers are no more 'accepted' or respected than sex workers in Oz. Any perceived difference you noted is probably only because you're not a local. I've had hundreds of international clients over the years comment on how fabulous it's been to indulge in Perth's 'legal, regulated and respected' sex industry and how nice it must be for me to work in a legitimate brothel, with rights that most foreign workers could only dream of. Little do they know that prostitution is actually criminalised in Western Australia (and much of the rest of the country) and the brothel they were in was actually illegal.

An illegal but tolerated sex industry can SEEM legitimate and accepted to an 'outsider' or a client, when advertising is done openly, brothels have flashing neon lights above their doors and there are no police raiding the place half way through your booking. But the tourists don't see the laws we operate under, the police harassment, the discrimination in employment and housing and the courts...the list goes on.

All the activism in the world is not going to make prostitution 'morally acceptable' to most people. I guess the best we can ask for are laws (and community attitudes) that legitimise sex work as an occupation and don't marginalise and discriminate against us as individuals.

[Petemcc]

Pete (this reading back looking for Regular Member posts is tricky stuff!)

I can't speak with any real authority on the Thai scene, although I do have some communication with the activist network in Thailand (FYI: www.empowerfoundation.org) I think you'll find that Thai sex workers are no more 'accepted' or respected than sex workers in Oz. Any perceived difference you noted is probably only because you're not a local. I've had hundreds of international clients over the years comment on how fabulous it's been to indulge in Perth's 'legal, regulated and respected' sex industry and how nice it must be for me to work in a legitimate brothel, with rights that most foreign workers could only dream of. Little do they know that prostitution is actually criminalised in Western Australia (and much of the rest of the country) and the brothel they were in was actually illegal.

An illegal but tolerated sex industry can SEEM legitimate and accepted to an 'outsider' or a client, when advertising is done openly, brothels have flashing neon lights above their doors and there are no police raiding the place half way through your booking. But the tourists don't see the laws we operate under, the police harassment, the discrimination in employment and housing and the courts...the list goes on.

All the activism in the world is not going to make prostitution 'morally acceptable' to most people. I guess the best we can ask for are laws (and community attitudes) that legitimise sex work as an occupation and don't marginalise and discriminate against us as individuals.Rubber,

Thanks for that. I really thought it was legal all over Australia, just shows how much I don't know. I know prostitution is legal here in Darwin- prostitutes register with the police. However brothels are not legal, only out calls are allowed, but then again you'd know about this, so why am I telling you?

I think you are right. Overcoming the morals of society is a losing battle. Even if someone proved tomorrow that God, Jesus, and the rest of the myth was in fact a myth, people would go on believing, and live by their moral codes. Not to say that I am singling Chirstians out as those against prostitution, I know other religeons think the same.

Legislation is the way to go. I suppose it is often true that what people know won't hurt them. I would guess that many people in society do not even hink about prostitutes, so perhaps outright legalisation is the way to go, I mean, how many people actually go to the Casinos in various states/territories? If it's not your thing, you don't care about it!

I think though that some of what Sascha said in her last post is why there is a bad view of prostitution- drugs. I know when I was a cop in Manchester, and I won't put a % on this, but the majority of working girls were serious drug adicts.

I was very friendly with someone who was an iv drug user, and when she couldn't steal or beg for her drugs, she went on the game- illegally, as with a criminal record she couldn't register.

Like anything, as long as it's illegal, it will attract the wrong people, pimps etc, and drag the whole thing down into the gutter. Don't get me wrong, I am totally anti drug, and legalising illicit substances will help nobody. Sometimes legislators do act in our best interests. However, a totally unregulated sex industry is open to many abuses, as you also know.

I just find it sad in the enlightened 21 century that society cannot accept that, the second strongest driving force in nature ( after the need to survive) cannot be accomodated other than by a monogomous everlasting relationship. Morality dictates that the inept, ugly, shy, gay, or scared will never be able to experience one of the strongest forces in nature-sex, just because they cannot find a long term partner. Sex, although biologically about procreation, moved from that sole activity ever since humanity existed. Even primates have sex for pleasure. A medical fact is that if the male prostate gland is not emptied regularly, all sorts of complications can occur. Wet dreams may take care of some of the problems, but prostate cancer and severe discomfort have been linked to infrequent ejaculations.

Men have to have sex to remain not only healthy, but sane. The alternative is masturbation, which is frowned upon as much as prostitution. WTF is going on in this civilised, enlightened society?

I'm sorry Rubber, it sounds as if I am preaching to you. I know that you know all this stuff, I am just unloading my head full of shit onto the forum. I'll read your link to the Thai girls, and see how it changes my mind, if indeed it does.

Finally, I have to say that it is only in recent years that my thoughts about working girls have changed. Perhaps my Manchester experiences lead me to believe that only hideously ugly drug addicts were on the game, who knows? Perhaps I grew up, who knows? All I know is, and I say it again, I have the upmost respect for you as an ex-prostitute, Sascha ( sorry if I am spelling the name incorrectly), and all the working girls who provide the oldes and most valuable service in the world.

Thanks girls.

Pete

[Alex Rock]

I really appreciate your responses. It's really interesting - and food for thought.

Thanks again.

[Pedrassi]

If prostitution lost its social stigma, we'd see an exponential explosion in clients. Marriage as an institution (already in decline) would literally collapse overnight making the traditional family unit a rarity. More poor girls from developing countries would be to pressured to enter the industry to respond to the price spiral.
Together with all the other unmentioned subsequent consequences, the world as we know it today would change drastically. Not to mention that the perceived gap separating the rich and poor would widen substantially. For the unprivileged, it would no longer be just a question of being incapable of buying luxury goods, like a sports car. It would also mean not being able to satisfy one's sexual desires because of financial restrictions.

Perhaps society should in that case arrange for state-subsidised brothels in order to cater to the needs of the very poor. But whether there would be enough willing girls to satisfy such booming demand is a pertinent doubt.

Anyway, prostitution objectifies women as sexual objects. Surely there is more to the way men and women interact than just sex? I'm not so sure given some of the posts I've read in other parts of this forum. Rampant cheating on their significant others, a profound disregard for women in general, all this I have read between the lines. The world has become a modern Gomorrah it seems. But no God will save our souls this time.

[Rubber Nursey]

Pedrassi,

You said it yourself ..."Surely there is more to the way men and women interact than just sex?" Of course there is. There's the desire to have children and provide a loving, stable home to bring them up in. There's the emotional fulfillment of finding your soulmate and growing old together. There's friendship and support and LOVE! Do you really think that easy access to prostitution is going to change all that? That men will suddenly lose their inate need for the security and love and affection (and children) that a relationship with a soulmate provides? And what about women - are we just going to stop searching for a mate, or stop having sex with men altogether, because prostitution is freely available?

Statistics say that around one in six men visit a sex worker at some point in their lives. That means that FIVE out of every six DON'T and for most of those men, its probably because of finances, geographical isolation, monogomous relationships or straight out moral opposition to the concept. Legalisation and legitimisation of the sex industry will not change anything for those men. The long-term need for love will always be stronger than the short-term desire for sex, for most of 'mainstream' society.

As for your comment that "prostitution objectifies women as sexual objects"...you're wrong. MEN objectify women as sexual objects. Your own comments in your last post, claiming that access to prostitution will cause moral destruction of the world as we know it, suggests that you see women as having no other purpose than to service the sexual needs of men (and, to be honest, paints men as pathetic creatures who think with their dicks and would be willing to lose everything for a quick shag). If a man sees all women as sexual objects, just because a few women in the world choose to sell sex for money, then there's something very wrong with his wiring.

However, if you meant that prostitution objectifies PROSTITUTES as sexual objects, then....ummm hello? Of course it does! What else is a sex worker for if not for sex???? The problem is that you see that as MEN dictating our behaviour - a situation you obviously see as degrading. Give us some credit. Why is it so difficult to believe that we are empowered in that decision? Why can't you see us as intelligent businesswomen, who meet (and exploit) a need in order to generate income, just like any other commercial enterprise?

[Rubber Nursey]

I think though that some of what Sascha said in her last post is why there is a bad view of prostitution- drugs. I know when I was a cop in Manchester, and I won't put a % on this, but the majority of working girls were serious drug adicts.

I'll give you some trivia on drug use in the Australian sex industry.

- An estimated 80% of street based sex workers use illicit drugs. These workers are the 'visible' side of prostitution and unfortunately, this leads to society basing their opinions of the entire industry on what they see on the streets. HOWEVER, street based workers only account for around 2% of the Oz sex industry. So what those statistics really show is that 80% of that 2% of the sex industry are illicit drug users.

- Studies (Roberta Perkins, from memory) found that across the entire Oz industry, illicit drug use is around 16%. Keep in mind that that figure includes the street based workers, who we already know are more likely to be users. Also keep in mind that 'illicit drug use' includes marijuana which, although illegal, is pretty commonly used by the general community.

- The drug of choice for the average drug using Oz sex worker ...amphetamines (not heroin!) Why? To stay awake on 14 hour shifts, just like doctors and truckies and nightclub staff - NOT to help them 'deal with the job' or because sex work has screwed them up emotionally.

- A recent article in the West Australian newspaper said that around 17% of the general community are regularly using amphetamines and up to 30% smoke marijuana (a pretty conservative estimate, in my opinion!)

Obviously, there ARE sex workers who use drugs, just as there are people in the general community who use drugs. But unfortunately, people seem to think there is some sort of special 'connection' between drug use and sex work itself. I don't believe there is - the average sex worker would prefer to remain sober and alert while naked and in the company of a complete stranger! But when it comes to a connection between drug dealers and the sex industry, that connection only exists because of our legal status. Much of the Oz sex industry is forced to operate in the shadows and while we continue to work in the dark, drug dealers and people smugglers and all the other undesirables are gonna continue to sneak in and hide amongst us. If the industry was decriminalised, the flood lights would come on and we would be exposed for all to see and the 'connection' between the sex industry and organised crime would be severed.

[Member #3409]

- Studies (Roberta Perkins, from memory) found that across the entire Oz industry, illicit drug use is around 16%. Keep in mind that that figure includes the street based workers, who we already know are more likely to be users. Also keep in mind that 'illicit drug use' includes marijuana which, although illegal, is pretty commonly used by the general community.

- The drug of choice for the average drug using Oz sex worker ...amphetamines (not heroin!) Why? To stay awake on 14 hour shifts, just like doctors and truckies and nightclub staff - NOT to help them 'deal with the job' or because sex work has screwed them up emotionally.

- A recent article in the West Australian newspaper said that around 17% of the general community are regularly using amphetamines and up to 30% smoke marijuana (a pretty conservative estimate, in my opinion!)

Obviously, there ARE sex workers who use drugs, just as there are people in the general community who use drugs. But unfortunately, people seem to think there is some sort of special 'connection' between drug use and sex work itself. I don't believe there is - the average sex worker would prefer to remain sober and alert while naked and in the company of a complete stranger! But when it comes to a connection between drug dealers and the sex industry, that connection only exists because of our legal status. Much of the Oz sex industry is forced to operate in the shadows and while we continue to work in the dark, drug dealers and people smugglers and all the other undesirables are gonna continue to sneak in and hide amongst us. If the industry was decriminalised, the flood lights would come on and we would be exposed for all to see and the 'connection' between the sex industry and organised crime would be severed.

Those figures surprise me greatly. It is saying that drug use is LOWER in the sex worker community by half. Using the figure that 30% of the general population smokle dope regularly, but only 16% of sex workers use any drug. Doesn't stack up.

Also the comment about there being no special connection between sex work and drug uses. Well sorry I would say that sex workers are disproportionaly drug users and the reason being the money to buy the drugs. This I would gather to be two way. Firstly those who get into work to pay for existing habbits and secondly those who either a). need drugs to put up with the hours and/or the nature of the work, or b). because of the relativly higher income can afford drugs. Again just like the normal population where higher income earners are more likley to use say cocaine compared to lower income people.

Clearly a great number of ladies get into sex work for reasons other than drugs, but many also do to pay for their drug addictions. I would say if you compared male and female drug users you would find a disparity between the relative innvolement in crime with males more likly to turn to crime to pay for drugs compared to ladies, but more ladies using prostitution compared to guys.

All that said there can be no doubt that a large proportion of working ladies are not users and choose work for a variety of good reasons.

My evidence of this, well just keeping my eyes open for the past 15 years and being at times friends with a number of working ladies.

[Martians]

[QUOTE=Jc373] I would say if you compared male and female drug users you would find a disparity between the relative innvolement in crime with males more likly to turn to crime to pay for drugs compared to ladies, but more ladies using prostitution compared to guys. [QUOTE]Crime everywhere is generally the last great male preserve. Women don't have the bottle and/or genetic make up for it. True you have some female gangs, killers and what not but males tend to dominate. It is a glass ceiling for women hoods.

[Rubber Nursey]

actually, i should have put a qualifier against the perkins research - it's not as recent as the stats published in the newspaper and there's every chance that amphetamine use has gone up within the industry by now, because it's also rising in the general community.

but the pot smoking comparison, although it might look totally out of whack, is probably correct. in my experience (in my home state, that is) weed is not really as popular within the sex worker community. it's a depressant and it makes you sleepy and slows your reaction times - not good when you're walking into a complete stranger's house on an escort job. drugs that dull your instincts or alter your perception of reality are dangerous. drugs like speed (not that i'm condoning it at all!) keep you awake, alert and paranoid.

the average brothel in this state (and most of the country, as far as i've been told) will not hire drug users. obviously some of the seedier establishments will allow it - some even encourage it - but the majority of brothels have a very firm 'no junkies' rule. in illegal environments, like perth, having drugs and/or drug addicts on premises is a surefire way to attract unwanted police attention. in all the raids i've been involved in, police have always gone straight for bags and lockers looking for drugs and they're more likely to check your arms for track marks than check your id.

i have access to a lot of information on sex work around this country and i can assure you, the perceived drug problem is exactly that - a perception. there are definitely drugs within the industry, but they are no more prevalent than they are in any other section of the community. drug addicts (as opposed to people who experiment with party drugs on their days off) in brothels or private workplaces are the exception, not the rule. however, i know that is not the case for street workers and, before anyone calls me out on it, i know that none of this applies to any country other than my own.

as for sex workers' disposable income - most hookers aren't making the sort of money that people think they are. the appeal of the sex industry for someone like me (a single mum) was that i could earn a large amount of cash in a short amount of time...that is, i only had to work very few hours to earn a 'regular' wage. i usually only worked about 4-5 hours a day, 4 days a week. i had a lot of regulars, so i generally made money, but some days you can go in and earn nothing at all. the money is there if you really wanna work for it, but most of the girls i ever worked with just wanted to earn a normal wage and still be home before their kids got out of school.

[Lazzaro]

In saying that I have also found that my best female friends have never been in the sex industry and some of my best male friends have been previous clients. The male friends not because I look at them as easy mark for a bit of extra cash ( i am quite capable and financially secure enough) but because our business relationship has been built on trust and mutual respect and slowly developed over time to be a friendship.
After some time I went to a WG, we beguns to chat a little (20/25 minutres) "before".
One day I pass there (she told me that she finish her "shift" at 7:30 p.m.), rung the bell saying "what's about an aperitif? Just an aperitif for half hour, than each of us go on his/her way"
Her answer I can't write here, because was erally rude. A sort of "who do you think I am?" or "stay away from me. I have no time to waste with man".....

Boh.....


I believe that as long as governments and religious bigots keep this industry illegal it will always attract the wrong sort of providers and pimps. I will be forever grateful to the New Zealand government to see the sense in legalising my industry. They somehow had enough brains to realise that the longer it is illegal the more that the gangs and so called want to be pimps will try and control it. As soon as it is legal you will find that these people have no interest anymore as there is no way for them to launder their filthy drug money and gives the prostitues rights under employment law and so forth.
Totally true!
But.....think a bit: ours (ours for "me" Italian) great-great-great-......-great-great-grandfather (the latins) said "qui prodest?", in few words: who takes advantage from this situation?
For sure, several lobbies who "import" young and unaware girls from the East Europe are strictly connected with politician (whichever color they are!), so...why kill the hen of the golden eggs?
Also, don't forget that here in Italy there is the State of the City of Vatican. It means that their power is very strong at least here in Italy.
For these reason, Policeman aren't so often involved against our poor customers and often they close more than en eye....
Obviously, when the situation became intolerable, they MUST take care for few day, and during "election time" suddenly all the girls (included shemales) disappear from the streets, from massage parlors, ..........
There are some politician (usually of the Left Party) who ask for some regulation, but money involved in thi business is an huge amount and Mafia don't want lose so much big amount of money (whcih often they turn to other politician)

As you can see, it is not easy legalize "the job".
Some time ago, a little group of WG's wanted to be legalised, giving some extimate amount of taxes paid by them if prostitution became legal: the money is so much that every year we could build sevral hospitals here in Italy and abroad.....quite for free......

[Lazzaro]

Why wouldn't she be proud of her work? If she considers herself a professional, enjoys her job and - most importantly - knows that that job is providing something meaningful and beautiful and necessary to somebody else's life (and perhaps to society as a whole), why shouldn't she be proud of that?
RN I love you!
Sometime I am shy about my job, more than maybe one time you could of your: I'm working in the insurance market and everyday I feel bad thinking all the money we steal to the people....

Ciao
Lazzaro

[Lazzaro]

Pedrassi,

I have to agree totally once more with Rubber Nursey and Sasha Coffee

As for your comment that "prostitution objectifies women as sexual objects"...
Try to se the matter from another point of view:
Why cannot be that "prostitution objectifies, for girls, men as sexual objects (like cow to milk)?"

On more if you're claiming that access to prostitution will cause moral destruction of the world as we know it, please define better what do you mean with "PROSTITUTION"
IMHO (and only in my humble opinion!) prostitution is "have sexual relationship to achieve something; is it money or is it "get on", or simply to have a part, even if small, in a movie, or........
From above, you can see that also men are "prostitutes" especially in the "office's world", where someone of us is (quite?) ready to kill the neighbor to have a little bit of salary increase.........
Really, I'm not proud of me, when I get it; BTW this is the hard law of the Offices: if you don't kill, you will be killed

However, if you meant that prostitution objectifies PROSTITUTES as sexual objects, then....ummm hello? Of course it does! What else is a sex worker for if not for sex????
Here, I disagree with RN
Often (ok, not so often, but not so rare) happens that a Client pay a prostitute without have sex with her, but only to talk with her about his problem, his wife, his job, and so on.....
Only to have a person who listen to you, who are feeling down.

Rubber Nursey and Sasha Coffee:
Never happened to you that?

[Alex Rock]

I wish I had more time to get involved with these threads. I think it's great that Sasha and Rubber Nursey are here to help us see how WG look at these issues.

Drug abuse was not caused by the sex industry, PERIOD.
Drug users turn to the trade to make more money, but I can bet the reverse is not true.

You just need to go to discos where younger people hang out to see that drugs are prevalent everywhere. It not because some girls take drugs that we brush all girls with the same brush.

Happy sex!

[Sasha Coffee]

i understand the scene in italy is incredibly different to new zealand for me and australia for rubber nursery, and i agree also that many countries won't make it prosititution legal for reason you state, that the crooked policiticians and cops will lose a source of income.

unfortunately this has been true of new zealand 30-40 years ago. maybe not the politicians but the police. after all what is a policeman. he is a member of a legal gang.

as for the last part of your post about clients sometimes not using me for sex but as person to talk to. it happens regularly. funnily enough, listening to someones problems like that is harder work than just having sex. it can leave you feeling very drained.

i don't mean the "my wife doesn't understand me" line either. i've heard some sad things. men aren't good at talking about problems generally and i'm not sure why some men find it easy to talk to wgs. i have pondered this question before and i think its because there is no way we can tell their wife, their kids, their job. its a totally private conversation. maybe also its because councilling is not the thing to do (if you're a man), we make good councillors.

quote:
originally posted by rubber nursey

however, if you meant that prostitution objectifies prostitutes as sexual objects, then? of course it does! what else is a sex worker for if not for sex?

this is so true, but we are also part time councillors, sex therapist, best friends and confidante.

[Sasha Coffee]

While its true that the sex industry does not cause drug abuse.

I have seen many young girls turn to drugs to cope with the mental aspect of the sex industry. Sadly the amount of money they earn and lack of knowledge of how to use that money successfully, sees many young girls as targets for the scum that push drugs.

Here in New Zealand the general rule amongst licenced brothels is not to hire drug users, (but they slip through the net). Most of the girls that work in these brothels will ostrasise drug users and they will leave to work on the streets etc.

Recently I have had the horrible experience of a watching a young girl go this way. I have known this girl since she was 18 (the legal age for sex work here) and started in this business. She was the sweetest kid and I spent many hours working with her and keeping her under my wing. Sadly she left our brothel and began working elsewhere for a couple of years. At 21 she turned back up in our brothel so drug f*****. We were unable to employ her.

While working in this industry did not cause her to turn to drugs the company she kept and money she earned led her down a sad path. Then being a IV user and working became a cycle. She couldn't work unless she was high and she couldn't get high unless she worked.

Its a sad sad thing and broke my heart to see her like this. But this story has a happy ending (although it might not be the end of her story). After 6 months of hard work and hand holding she has managed to kick her habit and has been clean for a couple of months.

God knows wether it was the industry that led her to drugs or whether she would of found them anyway I have no idea. But the kind of money these girls earn leaves them wide open to be taken advantage of.

[Alex Rock]

sasha,

i hope your friend can stay clean. i can understand that some girls need to be high to work. but i wonder if wg are more likely to become drug users than others or that certain “profiles” would make them part of the groups more susceptible to drug taking or to be seen as easy targets for those drug dealing bastards you mention.

i’ve seen all types but in the end my sampling is limited to personal anecdotal experience rather than scientific sampling. i’ve seen many people, including wg who take drugs casually and who get addicted – screwed up and even die of overdoses. some people i know get down for one reason or another and start drinking heavily or taking drugs which starts a vicious downward spiral. i’ve also seen girls get drugged up and basically gang raped by a series of guys without knowing who and how many did it.

drugs can be used to force girls into prostitution or to numb them into docility. it’s well known that in marseilles that some gangs would take in young arab girls and deliberately get them addicted to force them into prostitution to pay for the habit. but then, i guess forced prostitution is a different subject. a malaysian businessman/politician once took me to see a brothel for forced – under-aged prostitutes in southern thailand. it was sickening. young girls between 10 and 14, doped up and paraded like meat to be sold. the asshole “keeper” brought them down and as part of the “sale process” showed their “pussies”. these girls were probably kidnapped or sold into the business and were slaves. i was sick and couldn’t get the images out of my head for a long time.

i’ve been told of wg who take amphetamines and other performance enhancing drugs and enjoy it, though i’m told by my wg friends that most will steer away from drugs. i had one experience when my ex wg girlfriend was trying to get me to understand that she could accept sex and love/emotion could be separated. she arranged for me to have sex with one of her married friends. she and her husband wanted to spice up their lives for a jist and for 3 days she was high on some drugs – i don’t know what. she was happy to screw for hours, day and night but after 3 days they got exhausted and went back to their normal routine.

some people have said to me that drugs and prostitution always go together. that suits the bigots. it’s clearer and clearer to me from talking to wg friends and people like you and rubber nursey, that wg can be girls from diverse backgrounds.

i think most people in this forum agree that prostitution should not just be legalized, it also needs to be recognized as a valuable service to society – and has been around as long as we have recorded history. protection of the rights of working girls will make it easier to protect the vulnerable sex workers from drugs. it’s going to be a long time since bigotry and hypocrisy seem deeply embedded in most cultures.