The Morality of Prostitution [Archive] - Page 12

SE Asia Joe

12-06-06, 04:58

Alex,

It is very difficult to decide to be a working girl. It is scary. When I decided to start, ...........]
Oh Wow - RN - you're right - What China Lily wrote is well worth reading! Wud have missed it if you didn't point it out.
Lily - I've been with a few Passion girls in the past. Has it been re-opened now? Last time I was in Beijing it was closed down. Strange - I may very well have been with you in the past and now I'm chatting with you here! and even if I was not physically with you, I guess that you'd probably been with guys the same as me.
Yes, liaisons with WG's are so superficial aren't they? When I'm with one, its basically just to satisfy my animal needs - whether sexual, Man's pride, going along with the rest of the guys/just the thing to do, drunk and not really caring about morality/cost/repercussions/responsibilities - even sense of time when I needed to work bright and early the next morning etc etc. Yes, I engage in small talk (the same that the WG would do I think), and try to have some kind of feeling of actually being enamored by my partner of the night (the old GFE that everybody is after/talks about!) - but in the end - it was nothing but an animal act wasn't it?
And why do I go ahead and do it time and time again? Good question huh? See a good looking girl and its as if I'm again on automatic mode. When I was younger, I would relentlessly pursue girls - and it would not be a "paid for" experience - just freeby pick-ups. As I grew older - and not wanting to go down too much in my standards of female companions - I found out that just paying for it certainly takes a lot less effort, time and even money in the end - and I would still get a good enough standard girl. And as this is reinforced time and time again, I 'partook' of WG's more and more.... to the point that now I'm not only already keeping a mistress, but I also still regularly go out and get WG's of all types and all over the place. Pure animal instinct or am I trying to search for something that is not achievable? And what is this something? Actually I've got a great wife - really good looking, quite famous in my community as someone who had achieved success in her own right, caters and defers to me, a good mother and keeps the house nicely, well presented/good hostess to my friends and biz associates etc etc - in other words, actually pretty well a perfect companion for life - but here I am still out running around! OK you guys - start blazing away at me - I probably deserve it! And perhaps in the anonimity that the internet is - perhaps a good place for me to try to make sense as to what I actually am up to/want/desire etc. I've always been a high achiever and have reached a certain amount of financial success etc - is it this desire to always achieve driving me to unreasonable expectations? Like I said - blaze away!!
And Lily - are you still in Beijing now or are you somewhere else? And how come your English is so good? I only know very few girls with such good standards - one of whom was a second line actress in Beijing who appears in a few TV commercials etc - could you perhaps be her?
SE Asia Joe

Bango Cheito

12-06-06, 06:08

Rock Dog, what you are talking about is the dream of pretty much all immigrants everywhere. My grandpa came over from Italy planning to work for a few years, go back, and have enough money to be good in Italy, but it didn't work out, and he died 40 years later freezing his nuts off in Winnipeg.

50% of immigrants to Canada and the USA actually do eventually end up repatriating. Most of the rest have it in their heads at all times though. VERY few people immigrate wanting to spend the rest of their lives in their 'new country'.

Obviously as a WG you can get in and out a lot quicker and that's just what many of em do. Or many of the Colombianas you will find everywhere else in the Western Hemisphere go and work for a few months and then go back to Colombia for the other 8-9 months because life in Colombia is very cheap.

I dunno about 'unskilled', I think it does take a certain something to really make any money working off of sex, above and beyond being able to tolerate the working conditions. I have known WGs who just couldnt get arrested and got out of it!! Beyond that, being self-employed in and of itself requires a whole other level of intestinal fortitude not everybody on Earth has.

SE Asia Joe

12-06-06, 06:23

Alex,

It is very difficult to decide to be a working girl. It is scary. W
[size=-2]EDITOR'S NOTE: [blue]I certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Ple
Oh wow - Lily - your reports are dynamite!! And I hope you don't mind - but I've highlighted them in a few 'report of distinction' threads.
I've searched and read every one of your posting - and I think I'm all the better informed/knowledgeable for having done so. Thanks - and I hope that you will give us some more 'insights' into the psyche of a WG - especially one from China as I do go in quite regularly. I especially appreciate your report as I do think that in such an anonymous setting as the internet thread is, most people could be/would be completely honest. Like I said, I've been with quite a wide variety of Ladies - both professional as well as non-pro, and I do do a lot of talking with them - but there is always the lingering thought that one could never really be 100% honest in person vs/ when one is anonymous.
thanks
SE Asia Joe

SE Asia Joe

12-06-06, 06:28

Guys - in case you missed it, PLEASE go back a page (delayed Regular Member post) and read China Lily's response to Alex's question.

Lily - that was beautifully written and honestly, brought tears to my eyes. I just wanted to wrap my arms around you and hold you tight! It really does prove what I've been trying to say all along - working girls the world over, regardless of their age, race, social status or motivation for working, share SOOOOO MUCH in common with each other, on a personal level.
.
RN - from your and Lily's posting - versus what I know about Ladies in general - its not only working girls that has so much in common - I'd suggest that ALL women share so much - whether working or non working. It's just that WG's are generally forced to be so isolated from the rest of the population. Your and Lily's (and Sasha's too?) writings are so poignant and to me - heartfelt. Thank you Ladies.
SE Asia Joe

Rubber Nursey

12-06-06, 07:10

You're most welcome, Joe. :)

I should probably remind everyone though, that when Sasha, Lily and I share our personal experiences, we are only sharing our personal experiences. We can't speak for ALL sex workers.

Yes, we have similar experiences and emotions, as sex workers AND as women, but the three of us are very different people from different countries with different experiences of sex work and, on some issues, we apparently have very different views.

Sasha works in a decriminalised environment, I worked in an illegal environment, Lily works in a completely different scene altogether. Sasha and I both love sex work...Lily doesn't like her job. Lily and I protect our sex worker status at all costs...Sasha is open and honest to everyone about her profession. Lily pines for real love, Sasha seems happy to be a single 'career hooker', me...I always wanted to find a way I could have both at the same time! ;)

I'm really glad that you get as much out of talking to us, as we (or at least, I) get out of talking to you guys. This is an ideal place for frank male/female discussion - the sexually explicit nature of the forum and the anonymity the internet provides, creates a perfect environment for open and honest discussion between men and women. Maybe Jackson should be nominated for some sort of Community Service Award?! haha

Rubber Nursey

12-06-06, 07:20

Bango Cheito,

I should probably clarify that I in NO WAY think that sex work is 'unskilled' work!! I just meant that you don't need certificates or diplomas or any other formal qualification in order to start work.

I totally agree that it takes much more than an ability to moan on cue to be a successful hooker and that running a small business is, in itself, no easy task. :)

SE Asia Joe

12-06-06, 07:34

You're most welcome, Joe. :)

I should probably remind everyone - we are only sharing our personal experiences. We can't speak for ALL sex workers.
Sasha works in a decriminalised environment, I worked in an illegal environment, Lily works in a completely different scene altogether. Sasha and I both love sex work...Lily doesn't like her job. Lily and I protect our sex worker status at all costs...Sasha is open and honest to everyone about her profession. Lily pines for real love, Sasha seems happy to be a single 'career hooker', me...I always wanted to find a way I could have both at the same time! ;)
Somehow - I feel quite a bit of 'sympatico' for you girls - and had even entertained thoughts of making it a point to go to wherever you guys are to personally meet you all - especially Lily since it would be relatively simple for me to do so. But on second thought, perhaps I prefer to keep you girls as my internet friend and NEVER meet you in person. That way we can continue to be completely open and frank - and I would be able to learn ... about women, about WG's and also about myself. Mind you though, especially for Lily, it is verrrrry tempting as I do know the high standards required of a Passion girl - and Lily a Passion girl that seems to have her head on straight, is intelligent, is conversant in English (I guess I'm too much a Banana - lousy mandarin and prefer to have discussions in english) - and one who I have an 'insight' on!

. This is an ideal place for frank male/female discussion - the sexually explicit nature of the forum and the anonymity the internet provides, creates a perfect environment for open and honest discussion between men and women. Maybe Jackson should be nominated for some sort of Community Service Award?! haha
Couldn't agree more! On other chat forums - I always feel a bit conscious that I may come across as being a bit of a sex opportunist ... or even worse... some kind of pervert. Here, I know that most (!) of the participants knows what the score is all about and thus can be quite open. After all, it is not only you girls who needs to keep 2 separate lives; most mongers - I would venture to suggest - also need to keep 2 personae as it just would not do for biz associates, family, some friends etc to know what you're sometime up to!
And yes I'm all for nominating Jackson for some kind of GLOBAL award and recognition - how do you figure we could do this? Anybody concur with our idea/can come up with ideas?
SE Asia Joe

Rubber Nursey

12-06-06, 08:19

Mind you though, especially for Lily, it is verrrrry tempting as I do know the high standards required of a Passion girl - and Lily a Passion girl that seems to have her head on straight, is intelligent, is conversant in English...and one who I have an 'insight' on!

I can't speak for Lily, of course, but I would think that would be a very big invasion of her privacy and would probably make for a VERY uncomfortable booking. From her reports, she operates the way way I used to - taking on a completely different persona while working and creating a fantasy to suit her clients. That persona is very carefully constructed and maintained to protect our privacy, our heads and our hearts. To be with the 'work' her, talking about (or even just knowing about) the 'real' her, would probably really mess with her head. I know it would certainly mess with mine!

I've been on this site for years (six or seven, maybe?) and have never seen any of my WSG 'friends' as clients. The guys on this Forum know the 'real me' too well, which limits my ability to construct a working persona or create any sort of fantasy. It would be too much like having sex with a friend - and charging a friend for sex, for some reason, just doesn't seem right. I think it just blurs the boundary between paid sex and casual sex a little too much for my liking.

Bango Cheito

12-06-06, 08:48

Rubber Nursey

12-06-06, 09:12

...what happens when somebody you know from your 'regular' existence winds up as a (potential?) client...
For me - terror, panic and an immediate need to pray to the porcelain god!

I thought prostitution was legal in Aus. Is it not? I know it is illegal in China but largely ignored except for when the outside media gives them bad press.
Australia is a big country - each state and territory has it's own prostitution laws. Sex work (generally brothel work and 'registered' private workers) has been legalised in some states, and decriminalised (but under local council control, which can still be problematic) in one state. The others all have various degrees of illegality and/or toleration.

In my state (Western Australia), the act of having sex for money is not technically illegal, but most things surrounding it - such as where you do it, how you procure it, who you work with, etc - are criminalised, which means it's almost impossible to work within the law. Street work is illegal and those laws are strictly enforced. Brothels are illegal, but 'unofficially' tolerated - however, raids, threats and harassment by police are commonplace.

SE Asia Joe

12-06-06, 09:20

I can't speak for Lily, of course, but I would think that would be a very big invasion of her privacy and would probably make for a VERY uncomfortable booking. To be with the 'work' her, talking about (or even just knowing about) the 'real' her, would probably really mess with her head. I know it would certainly mess with mine!
Yes - that would be quite unfair to you guys - and something which I don';t know how you would cope with. On the other hand, isn't such situation NOT similar to what Lily experienced with her ex-husband and ex-BF?? Not that either of them turned out any good for her. On my part, my thinking is that its probably not going to be worth it to sacrfice this 'internet' friendship I have with you girls - for a roll in the hay. On the other hand, I've been friends with a few WG's who I was also having sex with - some whilst still paying them and some who had refused subsequent payments. In fact, I still maintain some of these friendships.

I've been on this site for years (six or seven, maybe?) and have never seen any of my WSG 'friends' as clients... I think it just blurs the boundary between paid sex and casual sex a little too much for my liking.
Hmmm - I've been on ISG I guess for over 3 or 4 years (not sure) but I've not noticed you girls/this particular forum prior to recently - I guess its because I've not really thought about the morality (is there such a thing - what is truly moral? who decides this? We ain't harming anybody ELSE in prostitution are WE?? oh well a topic that I'm not really interested in - whether its moral or not) of prostitution.
On your boundaries between paid and casual sex etc - is that necessarily BAD? I mean, why would it be so bad to enjoy paid sex for a WG? Perhaps it would go a ways towards making Lily a bit happier with her own life. I treat my mistress as my girlfriend in practically every way - except of course that I do pay her. Oh of course not each time we do it, rather monthly like a husband gives household expense monies to a wife - no different actually! And she tells me how much she truly loves me/worried that when we do part and she 'needs to' find a real husband, that she will really have a hard time finding anybody that she enjoys life AND sex with so much. OK OK, she may just be stoking my ego etc (I don't think so) but what is so bad about this and is it so different from what an ordinary 'non-paid' girl would say?
SE Asia Joe

SE Asia Joe

12-06-06, 09:39

I can understand that. I generally don't repeat much with WGs because of that. Part of the draw for me is for personality and friendship and all that stuff to NOT play in it, to just be getting intimate with some total stranger. If I wanted a gf I'd get a gf, well actually, I have a gf already :p but to me part of the idea of paying for sex is to deliberately bypass all the sentimental emotional shit.

Oh yeah - that's how I was when I first started with WG's - but eventually I found out that WG's are just like any other people. Oh of course there are some REAL skanks out there (even though they may be physically beautiful - which is the first reason why I would go with a WG) - and these ones - of course I just bang and pay. But then, I've come across many many Girls in my time that I've developed friendship with... even going ahead and helping them out when they were leaving/have already left the profession without asking for sex or anything else in return. Oh sure - you may think that I'm probably boasting/what a wanker this guy is/does he have a clue? etc etc - but its just something that I feel good about when I've been blessed with enough to be able to do such. Friendship with WG's USUALLY does not carry any baggage - as they can see when a person has no bad intentions and will thus NOT reciprocate with any bad intentions. just IMHO of course - and I can see your point of view
SE Asia Joe

Alex Rock

12-06-06, 09:52

I never expected you to respond the way you did. I guess it shows we guys don't know how you girls feel inside. I noticed a link was put in the "REPORTS OF DISTINCTION" - it shows people appreciate to see how you, RN and Sasha think. It helps us. Thank you.

One guy commented that you have such good English, and asked why don't you get another job? I think you answered that. My gf had good English too but not as good as yours. How come your English is so good? and are there other girls you work with with such good English?

As for the idea of a guy on this forum coming to look for you, I personally recommend to the guys here we keep what we say on this site to this site and not put the girls on the spot. I can be more open than I can with friends here and I'm sure China Lily would feel the same way as RN makes so clear.

China Lily, you talk about competition and being afraid and being 2 selves one who works and another who is the original you. I never thought about it this way before. Maybe we guys have multiple selves too. The mongers who go to working girls are different from the self we show to our families.

Best, Alex

SE Asia Joe

12-06-06, 10:48

I want to thank everybody here for all of your honesty and moral support you gave me through my marriage crisis. Although I don't know you, I feel a kind of open friendship. You all really helped change the way I looked at my husband, my marriage, myself, sex and sexual services.

My husband and I talked several nights, and when I stopped blaming him and making him feel guilty he gradually opened up. When I showed him this website and the comments from each of you, he was flabbergasted and said you were saying things he' d been afraid to admit. Then he completely opened up a

I insisted on going with him to London and meeting the Polish escort he had confessed about. she was much nicer than I had imagined and made me feel insecure.... I can understand why men like escorts like that. .... The last thing I dreamed of was that we'd end up in a threesome that night. It was an experience which I could never have imagined but I found it both unbelievably cathartic and a complete physical release....

I've learned a great deal over this last four weeks. ..... but I'd rather have this than lose all the positive things of our marriage.

I also think I understand men much better after reading the threads on this site. Men have to hide their sexual thoughts. I've also completely changed my views about sex workers. I don't use the "p" word any more.

Thank you Petemcc, Lazarro, Bango Cheito, Rock Dog, Sinanju Master, Sasha, China Lily and others who write here.

Thank you all again and again!
Hey... did you guys see this posting byVictoria 007 - or did y'all also missed it? The same way I nearly missed Lily's posting as they both are regular members and thus had their post delayed before being put up. Read it - its great and reinforces my thoughts that this forum is a very valuable source of information - without all the BS, prejudices, hatred, greed etc. GREAT, Jackson !!!
SE Asia Joe

Sasha Coffee

12-06-06, 18:27

Me a carear hooker, thanks for the compliment, not sure how it happened it just did, everyone is good at something I was just lucky enough to find mine.

I was also reading Victoria report, now I know she lying.

Woman are creatures that hunt alone and no woman I have ever met will behave like she just did, they do not share their mates. Not in that situation anyway.

Rock Dog

12-07-06, 02:20

SashaC,

I think I have to agree with you. I read that letter and it definitely sounds "a little over the top."

Going from the outraged wife with all the hurt feelings, to meeting the alleged escort and HAVING A THREESOME with her? That's a bit too much for me to believe. Maybe I'm an asshole, but that's the way things look to me.

Rock

Alex Rock

12-07-06, 04:15

Her story looks over the top to me too, but then I think back to the emotional roller coaster when I found out my gf was an escort, I remember going through hell trying to come to grips with it. The emotional turmoil I was in started my mongering, led to a threesome with one of my gf's friends (not a wg) and needless to say predominated my thinking until I settled down in my head for a couple of months. Emotions and jealousy can make you do stupid things - they can also help you learn too.

Even today I still need to ask people like Rubber Nursey, China Lily and Sasha "does it really feel different with a boyfriend and a customer?". They've all answered. I had a mistaken belief that working girls don't enjoy sex with clients. I want to believe they don't so I can fool myself that my gf didn't enjoy sex with her clients. The painful truth to me is that working girls CAN and DO enjoy physical feelings with some clients and some clients can make them feel good. I didn't want that to be true.

I didn't want to lose my girlfriend. I loved her. I hated the thoughts of her screwing clients, but I tried to come to terms with it. She liked the money too much. Maybe Victoria is going through an emotional roller coaster too and maybe it's making her behave outside her normal boundaries.

Victoria - How can you change so quickly? Wouldn't most women want to kill their husband and cut his balls off?

Levitian

12-07-06, 04:58

I especially like "her" comments on the Gangbang in the "St. Peterburg"-Section, really incredibly credible ...., exactly what I do expect from a committed working girl.

Oh my goodness, guys, somebody is really playing you well here.

China Lily, whoever you are, you probably should consider a transgender operation and then become a 2nd "Dr. Ruth".

But, I guess, you already have fun enough here, right?!

Levitian

Rubber Nursey

12-07-06, 05:39

Sasha - 'career hooker' was certainly supposed to be a compliment. I'm a born wh*re. :) I've never experienced such a feeling of 'belonging' or sense of place as I did when I was working and I always thought that I would end up a career hooker. I miss it soooooo very much. If I ever get to NZ, I would love to have a beer with you. (Would you be up for a night of [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140), pool and strippers??!! LOL)

I'm not sure where I stand on the Victoria thing. While I totally agree with Sasha that women don't generally behave like that - I also agree with Alex that people can do crazy things in this type of situation. Does anyone remember China Lily's first posts? Check them out - Lily told a similar story about a 'woman scorned' doing the exact same thing. And from memory, I think that woman even went as far as trying out hooking herself!

************************
Victoria,

I didn't respond to your original posts (I was travelling interstate at the time). For what it's worth, I didn't feel the same way about your situation as many of the other posters and would have given you quite different 'advice'. I only really agreed with one person's sentiments (I think it was George90? Sorry - to lazy to go back and check!)

I feel very strongly about trust, honesty and RESPECT in a relationship. I know that means different things to different people in different relationships - the varied opinions given on this board will attest to that. What matters here is what those things mean to YOU, in YOUR relationship.

Yes, sex with a sex worker (thank you for your change of heart on the 'P' word, by the way!) is straight sex with no emotional ties, etc. Yes, the hookers in question probably wouldn't even remember your husband after the fact. And yes, if there HAS to be infidelity, I agree sex workers are probably 'healthier' for a relationship than having an affair with someone you may ultimately develop feelings for. But do I think that makes it all ok? NO.

He lied to you. I don't care whether he was lying to you about seeing hookers or lying about who left the toilet seat up...he lied to you. Repeatedly. He played you for a fool and I don't care how remorseful he says he is about doing that. Did it stop him doing it again, after the first time? No. The only thing he's really remorseful about is GETTING CAUGHT!

I don't buy any of this crap about men needing to have sex with lots of women. I refuse to just 'accept' that such is the nature of man, so we have to live with it, no matter how much it hurts. And I got VERY annoyed reading about how you blamed yourself for this, instead of him. HE did this, not you. Maybe he wasn't getting enough attention at home, maybe he wasn't sexually satisfied by you, maybe it WAS your fault that he started thinking about having sex with other women? I don't know... but either way, that's completely irrelevant. What IS relevant is that HE, the man who made vows to be your husband and forsake all others, the man who is supposed to be your best friend you can share ANYTHING with, didn't have the BALLS to bring this up with you. If he had a problem with your sex life, he should have tried to spark it up. If he wanted to have sex with other people, he should have suggested taking you to a swingers club, etc, etc. And if none of those things worked, and he still 'needed' to sleep with other people, he should have had the common decency to say "This isn't working, I need more than you can offer me, I'm leaving the relationship". End of story.

WHY did he not say or do any of that? Because he knew, in his heart, that you would say NO, because the idea of him sleeping with someone else would HURT you. And herein lies why I'm so annoyed by the whole thing...KNOWING that what he wanted to do was going to hurt you - he did it anyway.

Tell me - do you really think this is gonna work in the long run? Can you really resign yourself to sharing your man with other women for the rest of your life? Can you ever trust him again when he says he's working late or going on a business trip? And if not - what are you gonna do while he's away from home and you just KNOW he's sleeping with someone else? Cry? Beg him to come home? Go out and find a revenge fuck? What sort of relationship is that??? And can you ever put aside that issue of sex workers (in your mind) being more beautiful/younger/slimmer/whatever than you, or will it forever eat away at your self-confidence??? You deserve more than that, girl.

Sorry, this probably isn't too coherent. My brain is going faster than I can type. :) And before anyone says it, I know there are lots of married men reading this board who are gonna want to argue their own case with me - please don't bother. Like I said, I know that every relationship is different and what works for one, doesn't work for another. This is only MY opinion on what I want in MY relationships. What you do in your own marriages is none of my business.

Rubber Nursey

12-07-06, 05:54

I especially like "her" comments on the Gangbang in the "St. Peterburg"-Section, really incredibly credible ...., exactly what I do expect from a committed working girl.
I went through a very long period of people accusing me of not being who I claimed to be (Prokofiev once said he reckoned I was a 300lb trucker from Ohio, or words to that effect!) It's really frustrating!

If you go back a page on the St Petersberg thread, you'll find I also posted rave reviews about Catalyst's photos. (And I'll admit to going back to them since then, more than once ;) I swear - if you havent' seen them, guys, check them out!!!) Gangbangs are my ultimate fetish and those photos REALLY turned me on. Why can't Lily be the same?

Bango Cheito

12-07-06, 08:48

Oh, I think Victoria really did it alright. Truth is stranger than fiction, and jealous feelings are just the flip side of horniness!

I also agree that she has every right to be mad at her husband for lying to her. Maybe they could have been doing this all along right in the open and there was no need to put the relationship into crisis mode over this. I think he owes her big time for lying to her and not trusting her.

In the case of my gf, we were very honest with each other from the beginning. Obviously I met her knowing her darkest secret, or so I thought. Within weeks she had told me EVERYTHING ;P And I did the same for her. I told her my whole crazy quilt of my sexual history and everything.

The weird thing is that in our open relationship, my biggest desire is to have sex with WGs, engage in group sex, do wild and crazy things etc. Her biggest desire is to go back and have fuckbuddy sex with her ex bf. I guess that shows a fundamental difference between me and her, or maybe even between men and women in general.

But one thing for certain, we are both doing and saying things we NEVER thought we would have done and said two short years ago.

Alex Rock

12-07-06, 10:08

I'm struggling with the honesty issue. I agree with just about all all your comments to Victoria but then I'm sure 99% of guys hide their mongering from their wives even if they've given it up.

My problem is I accepted a wg friend's hiding her history from her husband. He has no idea what she did before. After reading a post from Sasha I flipped my thinking then got confused about it. I started feeling the guy was being duped. Then again as my ex gf both said, why do you care what somebody did before as long as they are with you now?

If you are honest with someone from day 1, it's easy to keep it up and you feel relaxed. If you put on an image, there's stress of what if the other person finds out and what will their reaction be. Then we feel insecure we might lose someone. That insecurity can be multi-faceted. Insecurity a partner has sex with someone else is really fear of losing someone or something. That comes down to a sense of ownership, someone has sex with my woman or man - he's (she's) taken away something of mine.

Swingers seem to have got around this by sharing external sexperiences and removing the threat of losing each other.

It's interesting that both you and Sasha felt Victoria's husband had deceived her and a woman should not share her guy with anyone else.

It's also interesting to see some very skeptical comments from guys. This forum is great for that reason - it shows the very different mind sets people have about these issues.

Alex Rock

12-07-06, 10:18

I especially like "her" comments on the Gangbang in the "St. Peterburg"-Section, really incredibly credible ...., exactly what I do expect from a committed working girlLevitian, I'm amazed how little some mongers know working girls. I had a wg as a girlfriend for a while. She wasn't turned on at all by hard porn with no story, but she would get hornier than hell watching soft porn with multiple partners such as the Chinese movie "Golden Lotus". I had another wg friend who I went on vacation to Thailand with - not as bf/gf and not as a wg/client but as 2 friends. She wanted to watch me in a bathhouse and had fun helping me choose the girl and watched/chatted all through the process. She was turned on and wanted sex when we got back to the hotel.

Don't be surprised that working girls are girls. They are human just like us and have emotional and sexual feelings just like us. Their profession doesn't change that.

Levitian

12-07-06, 10:58

Amen!

I issued my opinion. You deal with it in the way you like. The person is not harming anybody, so ... let he or she continue.

Levitian

China Lily

12-07-06, 11:29

One guy commented that you have such good English, and asked why don't you get another job? I think you answered that. My gf had good English too but not as good as yours. How come your English is so good? and are there other girls you work with with such good English?

As for the idea of a guy on this forum coming to look for you, I personally recommend to the guys here we keep what we say on this site to this site and not put the girls on the spot. I can be more open than I can with friends here and I'm sure China Lily would feel the same way as RN makes so clear.

China Lily, you talk about competition and being afraid and being 2 selves one who works and another who is the original you. I never thought about it this way before. Maybe we guys have multiple selves too. The mongers who go to working girls are different from the self we show to our families.Most customers do not see girls do this job only for money. Girls who speak good english make more money because they can work with rich foreigners and Chinese but girls who only speak Chinese can only work with Chinese customers. Some of my classmates from university are escorts too and we make much more money than others who have good normal jobs. A girl in a very good job in foreign company gets 10,000 yuan a month, others get 5,000. Even with good English its still not easy to find a good job. Maybe half of escorts for foreigner customers are students and girls with normal jobs. 1 or 2 days with a customer gets the same money as a month in a normal job. Student escorts like long time customers so they can save rent, pay school fees dress pretty or drive a car.

I will be scared if somebody here looks for me at work. SE Asia Joe - please don't try to find me.

Alex, I am 2 people. I wear a mask when I am working. Girls say they 'shang zhuang' before working. It means to put on a make up face or a mask like in Beijing Opera. That is what I feel too. Customers wear masks. A customer in a bar or shopping with his wife is very different. When he is with is customers at a bar and with escorts he wears a mask. Customers have masks for excitement and go back to normal life after.

You told me why you can't go back to your girlfriend because you are jeolous and hurt. Why don't you try again and tell her you turst her if shes honest?

Alex Rock

12-07-06, 11:37

W'amen ! or Ah Women!

Your Shanghainese wife, the BBS girls in Hengshan road, freebies and high class English speaking escorts in Beijing. Bless them all.

It's all about opinions and views. Let's hope there is variety or this place would be boring. Good luck!

China Lily

12-07-06, 12:52

Some wives crazy if her husband has sex with other girls and they can do mad things. Women are different like men. A Chinese lady comes to Beijing with her husband from Australia and helps him find different girls. She wants new girl every time so her husband doesnt get feelings for one girl. A wife got mad at her husband for going with an escort and ask her husband to take us to meet her. She was mad but after a short time she wanted to have sex. She was very crazy. Then she wanted to come with escort to see what its like with customer. I think she wanted to make her husband mad but she opened a new door in her head and was crazy. Now she is a friend and we go shopping or for meal. A Chinese mans wife acted like she was understanding and didn't care her husband going home late after KTV with customers. He told her it is his work but after one time she saw him with girls she started divorce next day. Foreign women break up with their husbands quickly if they find out they have another girl. Young Chinese girls are same but older Chinese women open one eye and close one eye because they know it is often seen.

A foreign lady came to Beijing. Her husband didn't know. She came to hotel night club after he was with a girl. She was mad and bought champagne and drinks for all the girls and customers with her husbands credit card. Some Chinese guys don't care about what their wives think and take girls home with them. Some wives accept it and say nothing.

I dont want my husband to have sex with other girls, but it is not something to upset about. Sex and love are different. If he loves me and I love him that is important.

Alex Rock

12-07-06, 13:54

Only one escort girl managed to be successful in business. She was famous till terrible thing happened to her. I just paid attention to this at the end of your post. Was that the girl who worked in Passion one time who got rich then died one night? What happened?

Robbaf

12-07-06, 21:10

I dont want my husband to have sex with other girls, but it is not something to upset about. Sex and love are different. If he loves me and I love him that is important.
I understand this statement and I have always felt the same. I feel like a man or women is cheating if they are giving their feelings (LTR) to another.

I think the reason that man worry about their wife cheating, is because most women make love and very seldom have sex. A man can go to a massage palor and just have sex.

The reason that I started reading this thread: I may be in love/dating a wg and I am scared, because it is not bothering me, because I love her. In case you are wondering; No, I didn't meet her as a wg.

Rubber Nursey

12-08-06, 00:51

Bango: Loved your post. :) To me it's not so much about infidelity, but the lying. Even if you forgive your partner - or do what Victoria did and join him! - it's so very hard to get back that lost trust and respect. The UPFRONT openness and honesty that you described is, in my opinion, a brilliant foundation to build your relationship on. Best of luck to you both!

The weird thing is that in our open relationship, my biggest desire is to have sex with WGs, engage in group sex, do wild and crazy things etc. Her biggest desire is to go back and have fuckbuddy sex with her ex bf. I guess that shows a fundamental difference between me and her, or maybe even between men and women in general.

Not necessarily! In my current relationship, *I* am the one who likes to engage in the wild and crazy stuff. I love group sex, public sex and fast, hard, 'dirty' sex with nameless strangers. Gangbangs are my ultimate turn-on. My partner, however, is very much a 'one woman man'. I've asked him so many times what his ultimate fantasy is (so I could try and provide it!) and he's repeatedly said that he's already got it...a woman he loves, with a very high sex drive, who spoils him rotten in bed. He really doesn't like the idea of sex with no emotion. He's only had a couple of one-nighters in his life and didn't enjoy them - he would much prefer to be with someone he cares about and 'make love', with real intimacy and affection. I think if we were to have an open relationship, he would end up doing what your girlfriend does - sleeping with someone he has a bond and/or history with. I'm not sure I'd be entirely comfortable with that. Can I ask how you feel about it?

Rubber Nursey

12-08-06, 01:16

My problem is I accepted a wg friend's hiding her history from her husband. He has no idea what she did before. After reading a post from Sasha I flipped my thinking then got confused about it. I started feeling the guy was being duped. Then again as my ex gf both said, why do you care what somebody did before as long as they are with you now?

I think being a working girl BEFORE and being a working girl NOW are two very different things. If I was currently working and my partner didn't know, I would (technically, income vs infidelity aside) be being unfaithful to him. As an EX sex worker, I'm not hurting anyone. Should both partners be able to share themselves and their past completely, without shame or fear, in a healthy relationship? Ideally, yes. But, unfortunately, that's not always the case. I guess there's always the 'what people don't know, can't hurt them' factor as well, especially when it comes to something as stigmatised as sex work. Some guys go crazy with jealousy, get paranoid that every guy they see has slept with their wife, distrust everything their partner says...even go out and have 'revenge sex' themselves. Is honesty always the best option?

I think people should also have a right to put their past behind them and move on. Again, I don't think it's ideal - you should be able to tell your partner everything and if you don't, you also run the risk of having it come back and bite you on the bum one day. But if you're not doing it NOW, well, if people prefer to keep their past sex work...or drug use or juvenile delinquency or tax fraud or whatever...a secret, it probably isn't gonna hurt anyone too much. Except maybe themselves. Secrets can be a very heavy burden to bear.

Rubber Nursey

12-08-06, 01:58

I think the reason that man worry about their wife cheating, is because most women make love and very seldom have sex. A man can go to a massage palor and just have sex.
"Most women make love and very seldom have sex"? Do you really believe that? Your very next sentence is "Men can go to a massage parlour and just have sex". Who is it exactly that they have sex with? Other men??? Nope - they have sex with women who are perfectly capable of having sex without love. Working girls. (And please, don't anybody say that hookers aren't 'normal' women. What are we, aliens?)

What about golddiggers, who also have sex with someone solely for financial gain? What about mistresses or mail order brides? What about women who sleep their way to the top in big business? What about the woman who blows the landlord to pay the rent (survival sex)? What about women who PAY for sex? And, more importantly, what about all those women who pick up at pubs, shag people in the toilets at nightclubs, advertise on adult chat sites, go to swingers parties, etc...you know, the ones people call SL*TS because they aren't behaving like 'normal' women.

Before I was a wh*re, I was a sl*t. :) Sex is sex, love is love.

Bango Cheito

12-08-06, 04:08

I'd be glad to talk about it. I feel a bit threatened by it, and I have told her my feelings on the issue, but in the end, turnabout is fair play, so she is free to do what she wants. She swears up and down that they are nothing more than friends and I just have to trust her.

SHE on the other hand feels threatened by the WGs because she's worried I will meet someone who will just sweep me off my feet with awesome sex, or I will meet somebody with a nicer ass, or nicer legs, or what have you. In short, she feels she will be trumped by another girl, and the more girls I sleep with, the higher the possibility (in her mind). I swear up and down that it's just a release for me, that I LIKE the anonymity, and that on a higher-than-physical level she has a lot less competition than she thinks she does. In the end she, likewise, just has to trust me.

She really doesn't have much competition physically either, she's fucking gorgeous, she just has the same damn inferiority complex half of South America has. In my case, I could get a craving for a certain type of body like I could get a craving for food. Usually my favorite skin color on a woman is that kind of 'in between' skin color, sometimes called 'olive-skinned' in English, or 'trigueña' in Spanish, which is her color. Maybe once in a blue moon I may get a craving for a really dark black ass :P or even more rarely a real pinkish white one! Maybe once in a while I want a big girl, or a spinner. Most of the time I don't even act on my cravings, aside from satisfying them with some porn :P But the bottom line is, none of that has to do with love, and the love that I have for her is much deeper than anything on that pure physical level.

We have yet to actually have a threesome, we decided to postpone that until when we are actually both living in the same town. When we do have a threesome, it will probably be with a WG if it's a girl, because they specialize in fulfilling fantasies, so the experience can be exactly to our liking. If it's a guy, the situation is different, because there is a whole other risk factor to being penetrated by a guy who regularly takes it up the ass, so looking for a pro isn't nearly as desireable in that case IMO. We may invite one of her good webcam clients down for a trio at some point.

Bango: Loved your post. :) To me it's not so much about infidelity, but the lying. Even if you forgive your partner - or do what Victoria did and join him! - it's so very hard to get back that lost trust and respect. The UPFRONT openness and honesty that you described is, in my opinion, a brilliant foundation to build your relationship on. Best of luck to you both!

Not necessarily! In my current relationship, *I* am the one who likes to engage in the wild and crazy stuff. I love group sex, public sex and fast, hard, 'dirty' sex with nameless strangers. Gangbangs are my ultimate turn-on. My partner, however, is very much a 'one woman man'. I've asked him so many times what his ultimate fantasy is (so I could try and provide it!) and he's repeatedly said that he's already got it...a woman he loves, with a very high sex drive, who spoils him rotten in bed. He really doesn't like the idea of sex with no emotion. He's only had a couple of one-nighters in his life and didn't enjoy them - he would much prefer to be with someone he cares about and 'make love', with real intimacy and affection. I think if we were to have an open relationship, he would end up doing what your girlfriend does - sleeping with someone he has a bond and/or history with. I'm not sure I'd be entirely comfortable with that. Can I ask how you feel about it?

Rubber Nursey

12-08-06, 05:05

Thank you so much for your honest response :)

Insecurity is an interesting thing, isn't it? Probably the single biggest cause of jealousy and certainly the single biggest reason that people generally won't participate in 'open relationships' (and instead, sneak around behind their partner's back). They justify their own infidelities as being 'just sex', but say they fear that if their partner, generally the woman, did the same, she would eventually develop emotions and feelings. Sure, that could happen and I'm sure all of us are afraid that our partners may one day fall out of love with us and in love with someone else. But what I reckon they fear most is that she might sleep with a guy with a bigger dick or a better body or that he might be younger or fitter or richer...all the same crap that us girls worry about!

As I said below, my partner and I don't have an open relationship, as such. He doesn't sleep with other women and I respect his request that I not sleep with other men. However, he has no problem with me sleeping with other WOMEN. In his own words, he's "not threatened" by a woman. We've had lengthy discussions about it (with me actually arguing AGAINST me doing it, would you believe!) and he went into great detail about what me sleeping with another guy would do to his ego/masculinity/self-esteem. (He's been screwed around on a few times in the past). He reckons he feels none of that at the thought of me with a girl. If anything, he says he'd actually be more comfortable knowing that I'm completely sexually satisfied, rather than pining away for something he can't give me. (I've explained that that isn't necessarily the way bisexuality works, but he doesn't seem to believe me!) To me, his is a perfect example that in infidelity, maybe it's not so much about the sex act itself, or how the affair affects our SO, but more about the effect our SOs affairs have on our own ego.

Bango Cheito

12-08-06, 06:29

I think 'ego' is a key word here. These are all very important questions because for the first time in the history of civilization, socities are evolving to the point where tribal/religious/cultural/national identity are becoming less important than one's on identity AS AN INDIVIDUAL. Among other things, this is going to lead to the breakdown of the nuclear family as an institution. Some people see this as a bad thing, but I see it as something that is a natural consequence of some otherwise positive and progressive changes in society. It indeed has already led to a lot of chaos as socities don't know how to yet deal with this change. I actually think sex professionals will play a key role though. :P

SE Asia Joe

12-08-06, 10:01

I think 'ego' is a key word here. :P
Ego, insecurities, jealousies, etc
I believe that if one follows the following "Don't-s" that we'd all be much better

1) DON'T let the other half know, no matter what - even if caught red handed, deny deny deny
2) DON'T let the other loose face. i.e. never let any other people, especially those who knows the other to know about any affairs, WG's etc you may have
3) DON'T bring back any thing dirty - i.e make sure you don't get any STD's and bring back to your other half
4) DON'T have a second family out there. Even if its a long standing affair, you cannot have a set up which 'takeas' away from what you are able to offer your other half.
If you follow ALL the above who is going to be adversely affected? What's the difference if I'm at work or having an affair/with a WG. There is no question of jealousies, insecurities, ego, unfairness etc - it is as if it does NOT exist.
OK, you ask - what about deceit?? OK so what about deceit? Would you rather lie and keep everything 'Great" or be honest and destroy families, lives, egos, self worth etc etc. Which is better? And let's face it, even monks have desires - so if it does happen - my above DON'Ts is the only way!!
Any relationship is based upon commitment and living up to your responsiblities - and my DON'Ts - I figure is part and parcel of such responsiblity.
SE Asia Joe

SE Asia Joe

12-08-06, 10:07

I will be scared if somebody here looks for me at work. SE Asia Joe - please don't try to find me.

Don't you worry - like I said, it's rather nice to have internet friends here. Gets me kinda horny just imagining who you are etc. Strange but true and its a nice - (and different) - feeling.
SE Asia Joe

Bango Cheito

12-08-06, 10:36

I disagree Joe, I think there are deep consequences to not being honest with someone. i think it makes you less close to your wife. Besides which no matter how good of a liar you are or how discreet you are your wife will have a sense that something is wrong. She may not know it and it may come out in weird behavior on her part, but it will have an effect one way or another.

Alex Rock

12-08-06, 14:46

What about golddiggers, who also have sex with someone solely for financial gain? What about mistresses or mail order brides? What about women who sleep their way to the top in big business? What about the woman who blows the landlord to pay the rent (survival sex)? What about women who PAY for sex? And, more importantly, what about all those women who pick up at pubs, shag people in the toilets at nightclubs, advertise on adult chat sites, go to swingers parties, etc...you know, the ones people call SL*TS because they aren't behaving like 'normal' women.

Before I was a wh*re, I was a sl*t. :) Sex is sex, love is love.
Rubber Nursey - you make it so clear ! It's great to see what you write !!!

Robbaf

12-08-06, 20:33

"Most women make love and very seldom have sex"? Do you really believe that? Your very next sentence is "Men can go to a massage parlour and just have sex". Who is it exactly that they have sex with? Other men???
What I was talking about was married couples.

Thanks
Robb

China Lily

12-09-06, 03:38

I just paid attention to this at the end of your post. Was that the girl who worked in Passion one time who got rich then died one night? What happened?Alex, her story upset many girls. We call her Lingling. She was pretty and a top girl in Passion and escort for some rich guys. She was clever and put money in apartments and business. She was the model we try to copy then 3 years ago somebody kill her. They didn't take her jewels or fur coat or money from her apartment. The police came to ask all the girls if we could give idea who did it. Nobody knows. Maybe a jeaolous guy or revenge. After that a lot of girls were very sad stopped working as escort.

China Lily

12-09-06, 04:23

I laugh you think I am a man. You can read Chinese book <Give me a cigarette> by Bian Dashu who work as a KTV escort. <给我一支烟> 变大树. Her book will show you how we feel and think. Girls in China read the book a lot and after you read you will know our life. We are normal girls, we can like sex, we can love people and we can be scared when we work and we can be lonely.

I look at this site because my exboyfriend looked at it and I see what guys say about working girls and how shit guys treat girls bad and try to get sex for less price or trick girls or not use condom. In my job, I know many customers look down on me or talk down about "zuotai xiaojie" or "sanpei xiaojie". We never use the words you do. Some customers don't think I am a good thing, I don't think they are a good thing, but it's my job. I give them excitement, they pay me, I forget them, I take the money home, so I don't care what they think about me.

I also see a guy write very good story about one of my friends and another guy wrote about me but get my name wrong or maybe he purpose use different name. I like to read that and what customers like. I show my friend and we laugh.

Some photos guys show make me feel sick because the girls do not know you put the pictures on the internet. I like pictures in St Peterburg because they are very sexy and the girls and guys know the pictures are being taken. They are not tricking or cheating the girls. When I see those pictures I want to be in them and think what it feels like. I see Rubber Nursey also like them. I like sex with girls and guys at the same time and so do other girls I wrok with. It feels safer when another girl is with you.

I laugh you think I am a man. After the book maybe you think Bian Dashu is a man too. Haha

Alex Rock

12-09-06, 05:12

I now subscribe to the second paradigm, but used to believe the first.

PARADIGM 1: Sex and love shouldn't be separated. We fall in love and we marry. Women only enjoy sex with a man they love. "Good" men have sexual feelings and like looking at sexy women but suppress it. "Bad" girls and women "give sex to guys in exchange for something and dress sleazy to attract guys. "Good" girls have highr values than that. "Bad" guys only want sex and will have sex with any women they can as long as they won't suffer consequences. Women who have sex with men like this are either sl*ts or are being cheated. Women want love and security and are not really interested in sex like men are. Monogamy is the norm, extramarital sex is bad.

PARADIGM 2: Both women and men are constrained by social mores but women can enjoy sex as much as if not MORE than men. They can multi-orgasm - we can't. They can have sex with dozens of partners in succession, guys can't. Women's pain threshold during sex indicates they can enjoy sex more than men. If women are economically independent and don't need men for their livelihood, and not socially constrained they happily buy sex. (Japanese women in Guam, wealthy Chinese women in "duck" clubs). People need sexual excitement and either get it in secret or by sharing with their partners. Humans are predominantly monogamous, but frequently have sex outside their stable relationships, especially if they expect no negative consequences.

I've had some relationships with married women. Great relationships that were based on total honesty and incredibly hot sex. (That is honesty within the affair, but deceipt within their marriage) Married women can really be very different in bed when they are out of their psychological routines" Read the book "Tempted Women" if you think married women only want love and not sex.

I've also had some unplanned one night stands with women I met on business trips in the USA. Never happened when I was looking for it. These were women away from their constraining environment, in a place where they felt they wouldn't be found out. They weren't doing it for love or money!

Benchseats Rock

12-09-06, 06:38

They can multi-orgasm - we can't.

Alex,

We most certainly can.

Benchseats Rock

Alex Rock

12-09-06, 09:24

There's a 3rd "Rock" here. Hi !! My max in one night is 4 with a considerable recovery time in between. Girls/women can have 16-30. You know what I meant.

P.S. I like your Japanese language joke . . "There's never a wrong hole!"

Rock Dog

12-11-06, 04:07

The more "Rocks" the merrier!

Rock on!

Rock

Alex Rock

12-11-06, 15:17

Some photos guys show make me feel sick because the girls do not know you put the pictures on the internet. I like pictures in St Peterburg because they are very sexy and the girls and guys know the pictures are being taken. They are not tricking or cheating the girls.China Lily, I must admit I've liked a few photos, and accept your point.Would it make a difference if the guys hid the eyes or faces as some do? And by the way those St. Petersbug pics really are hot !

Bango Cheito

12-11-06, 19:39

But who would be dumb enough to let a guy they don't know well take a picture of them and not expect it to end up on the internet? Not that that absolves somebody for doing it, but still, you have to wonder about that.

I'm not much of a shutterbug myself anyways, but I do enjoy the pics on here, especially the real hardcore action pics. Sometimes I even enjoy the nature pics, I tell ya, I HAVE to go to Madagascar now :P

Rock Dog

12-12-06, 00:48

For an extra $5 or 10 bucks, I'm sure you can get exclusive photo rights from just about any girl. If she still isn't up for it, save the photo session for another time.

There's plenty of girls out there. No reason, or need, to trick anyone into anything.

Rock

Alex Rock

12-12-06, 03:53

OK, you ask - what about deceit?? OK so what about deceit? Would you rather lie and keep everything 'Great" or be honest and destroy families, lives, egos, self worth etc etc. Which is better? And let's face it, even monks have desires - so if it does happen - my above DON'Ts is the only way!!
Any relationship is based upon commitment and living up to your responsiblities - and my DON'Ts - I figure is part and parcel of such responsiblity.
SE Asia JoeI think you are hitting a core issue. Lots of guys say going with a ho*oker doesn't threaten their marriage or family because it's quickly over. They don't divert major time, emotional and financial resources away from their wife and kids to another woman whereas guys who end up in affairs or even keeping a long term mistress are definitely diverting resources to another "family".

Guys go to working girls for sexual pleasure and excitment they are not getting enough of at home for various reasons. But we (including women) get into affairs to fill emotional needs. Affairs usually starts as being highly sexually oriented and some stay predominantly sexual, but affairs become close intimate relationships. Married women usually only enter affairs after knowing a guy for several months. Affairs between a married person and a single can rip apart a marriage, but some affairs between married people seem to work very well. The partners needs are fulfilled, they meet each other have passionate sex and a great emotionally intimate encounter, then refreshed and re-charged go back to their normal lives.

Affairs and "encounters" can fill in the gaps in a relationship that might be 70%. Marriages decline because of many reasons, sometimes going outside the marriage fulfils needs the marriage doesn't (or can't) fulfill. Some people argue that a person refreshed by an extrmarital affair can be more balanced and tolerant of frictions in the marriage. (Yeah I know others argue it means energy is diverted from making the marriage work)

Deceit and dishonesty are issues I have a lot of trouble with, having been guilty of both myself. I tend to believe that if you start a relationship right it's easy to be honest later on. But can you start it honestly with most women?

If you think you can't keep sexually monogamous forever and you are honest with a woman in the beginning, most regular women won't take the relationship further. This is the irony.

Working girls seem to be able to accept that guys like sex with more than one partner, regular women a much less likely to accept it. Which brings me to a conclusion I've raised here a few times. It's easier to start a great honest relationship and avoid eventual deceit and dishonesty with a working girl than with a non working girl.

SE Asia Joe

12-12-06, 04:55

I think you are hitting a core issue. Lots of guys say going with a ho*oker doesn't threaten their marriage or family because it's quickly over. They don't divert major time, emotional and financial resources away from their wife and kids to another woman whereas guys who end up in affairs or even keeping a long term mistress are definitely diverting resources to another "family".
errr...not quite. My way of thinking is a bit of the Muslim belief that if you can afford to provide equally for 4, then you can have 4 wives! Well, I skew this a bit - if say my mistress wants a new fancy HP - OK, no problem. And its also not a problem that I then go ahead and buy a new car for the family.... and then maybe buy a little trinket for a GF. I've been blessed with being able to afford a life style like this - without diverting "major financial resources" from any parties. Now Time - welll.... yes... but what's a a couple more hours after 5-6 hours golf/travel time with the mistress? And I've got to have dinner and a bit of entertainment don't I? So what's wrong with having such with a GF?
Jeez... I know I'm gonna get crucified by the gals here!

Guys go to working girls for sexual pleasure and excitment they are not getting enough of at home for various reasons.
....Or just because the WG happens to exude the particular charm/sexual signals that attracts my eyes??

But we (including women) get into affairs to fill emotional needs. Affairs usually starts as being highly sexually oriented and some stay predominantly sexual, but affairs become close intimate relationships. Married women usually only enter affairs after knowing a guy for several months. Affairs between a married person and a single can rip apart a marriage, but some affairs between married people seem to work very well. The partners needs are fulfilled, they meet each other have passionate sex and a great emotionally intimate encounter, then refreshed and re-charged go back to their normal lives.
Or again just becasue it "feels good' with the mistress??!

Affairs and "encounters" can fill in the gaps in a relationship that might be 70%. Marriages decline because of many reasons, sometimes going outside the marriage fulfils needs the marriage doesn't (or can't) fulfill. Some people argue that a person refreshed by an extrmarital affair can be more balanced and tolerant of frictions in the marriage. (Yeah I know others argue it means energy is diverted from making the marriage work)
Actually - thats a load of BS IMHO! LOL

Deceit and dishonesty are issues I have a lot of trouble with, having been guilty of both myself. I tend to believe that if you start a relationship right it's easy to be honest later on. But can you start it honestly with most women?

If you think you can't keep sexually monogamous forever and you are honest with a woman in the beginning, most regular women won't take the relationship further. This is the irony.

Yeah deceit I have LOTS of problems with - but I've basically rationalized it all down to - what else is there?? Ooops - sorry but that's my take

Working girls seem to be able to accept that guys like sex with more than one partner, regular women a much less likely to accept it. Which brings me to a conclusion I've raised here a few times. It's easier to start a great honest relationship and avoid eventual deceit and dishonesty with a working girl than with a non working girl.
WRONG!! Women I'm sorry to say - and sorry to have found out - are just that - women!! Never mind whether they're WG's or not - they also have their insecurities, jealousies, possessiveness etc. And that a WG knows better how much of a dog a man is, they are all the more likely to be such.
And OMIGAWD - a WG (and Jebezus - mistresses!) - they are more likely to go CRAZY on you than what you and I know as being 'regular girls. OUCH!
SE Asia Joe

Petercal

12-12-06, 09:03

I laugh you think I am a man. You can read Chinese book <Give me a cigarette> by Bian Dashu who work as a KTV escort. <给我一支烟> 变大树. Her book will show you how we feel and think. Girls in China read the book a lot and after you read you will know our life. We are normal girls, we can like sex, we can love people and we can be scared when we work and we can be lonely.Please excuse my abrupt jumping into this discussion mid-thread. The gist I get from the last twenty pages or so is that WGs are human, just like everyone else. The complication arises from people having different value judgments. I don't think I can resummarize the entire thread any more concisely.

Oh, I jumped into this thread at this point because I came across a posting from a guy in another forum about his tragic (this word is truly an understatement, but I don't know what other word is appropriate) story with a service provider. He chronicles his relationship with a Thai woman over the period of a decade, from the beginnings in Macau to her final days in Thailand. It certainly gives you a deeper perspective into how both sexes feel about such a relationship.

Unfortunately, the attached story is in Chinese. Here's the title and prefacing statement from the author:

[from Chochet 之刻骨銘心]

* * 作者把私事公開是想各弟兄以此為鑑, 珍惜眼前人, 以免錯失良機, 後悔莫及 * *

I can only read elementary Chinese and am not up to task to translate it (I don't understand about a third of the text and idioms). Is there someone who may be interested in taking a shot at it?

China Lily

12-13-06, 03:31

He chronicles his relationship with a Thai woman over the period of a decade, from the beginnings in Macau to her final days in Thailand. It certainly gives you a deeper perspective into how both sexes feel about such a relationship.It is a sad story. It happens a lot for girls that don't know what they want. She wants a guy to love her, he wants her but he doesn't take her away from her job. He doesnt like her work but he doesn't help her away from it.

Guys want sex worker girls to be their girlfriend but dont give enough money so the girl stays doing the same job. Why dont they take the girl away? That is what Meow wants.

Lots of foreign guys want a girl to be their girlfriend and stop working but they dont give the girl any money to live. The girl wants to stop work but cant if she doesnt have enough money to pay her apartment. They dont give up their wife so what the girl should do?

It is easy to tell other people but not easy to do it yourself. I lose my boyfriend because I don't stop working. Next time I know what to do.

Chochet Meow story is sad. It tells if a guy want a sex worker girl, give her chance and take her away. If the girls wants a new life she should make risk.

Levitian

12-13-06, 09:01

I took some time and read through all your posts. I have to apologize to you, I now do believe that you are actually "real". I also do recall a story posted in the Beijing threat quite a while ago, which was probably about you.

I will not contribute much to the ongoing discussion here. I do consider myself as liberal, and I can believe that prostitution in an abstract way is a job like any other, that working girls can fairly well distinguish between "work" and "private", and they also can have fun in their job, like anybody else.

But, for myself, I certainly couldn't and wouldn't accept my partner to continue working as a prostitute. Yes, I know, that is contractional, but then, again, I am a pacifist and against death penalty, but if anybody would harm my child, I certainly would like to see him grill, if I wouldn't kill him myself beforehand. Man is like that, no matter which gender.

And yes, you are right, if I would urge my partner to stop working, I should make sure that she is financially secured, no matter, what job she has.

Again, pls. accept the apolgy of this ignorant here.

Levitian

Alex Rock

12-13-06, 09:03

The gist I get from the last twenty pages or so is that WGs are human, just like everyone else. The complication arises from people having different value judgments. I don't think I can resummarize the entire thread any more concisely.Hi Petercal,
The very different perspectives people bring to some of the topics especially when we can get great insights from three women here make it very interesting. Value judgments are challenged and can be modified. Personally I find the women's perspective the most thought provoking.

For example: Would you take a working girl (wg) as your girlfiend and could you accept her work? If not, could you accept a wg giving up her job to be with you? How about if you have a girlfriend and find out she is a wg? Maybe not so shocking, how about if one day you found out your girlfriend was a wg and hid it from you? Would "All guys run for the hills" as soon as they find out their gf is a wg?

If guys who go with wg's deceive their wives, is it OK for wg's to deceive their future husbands and not tell them what they did?

If a woman finds our her hubby went with a wg, how should she look at it? Do Anglo Saxon religion, Islam, Chinese, wealth, poverty or other social circumstances change they way we look at the issues. How do girls make the decision to start? How does it change them? How about guys? Why does mongering become an addiction for some guys?

If everyone had the same experiences and the same "values" this forum wouldn't be any fun.

China Lily

12-14-06, 11:27

Thank you but dont apologise. My friends think its very funny some people think I am a man. We joke for a long time if we are men what job will we do? We all say the same thing, to be a woman is better than be a man.

You are honest. Most guys dont want their girlfriend to do this job but they dont give them enough money to live. If you see Chochets story, only after Meow died of drugs he is sorry.

If a guy loves a sex worker girl it is very easy for him to take her away to a new life. Most will be a good wife.

I hope you have fun in your job.

Alex Rock

12-15-06, 01:58

errr...not quite. My way of thinking is a bit of the Muslim belief that if you can afford to provide equally for 4, then you can have 4 wives! Well, I skew this a bit - if say my mistress wants a new fancy HP - OK, no problem. And its also not a problem that I then go ahead and buy a new car for the family.... and then maybe buy a little trinket for a GF.Sure . if economics allow it, it's not a threat for a woman for a guy to have other wives. Wealth and power are attractive to women, and funnily enough I've read a couple of books that show women arew attracted to men who they see other women are attracted to (same for tigers). The issue for families of normal economic circumstances is that a woman is driven by fear that her husband will divert money away from her family and time away from her kids. If a guy is wealthy she won't have the same fear. But my experience of wealthy women is thatif their husbands foll around, it's a face issue and they look for revenge. Good luck for you if you can afford the money and time to keep everyone happy.

Yeah deceit I have LOTS of problems with - but I've basically rationalized it all down to - what else is there?? ....Deceit and honesty. This is the biggest issue - I think. How many people can be honest about sex with others and not fear losing their partners?

My hypothesis is that if you start out honest with a wg, she'll be more likely to accept your intent to dabble than if you start out saying the same thing to non wg's.
Women I'm sorry to say - and sorry to have found out - are just that - women!! Never mind whether they're WG's or not - they also have their insecurities, jealousies, possessiveness etc. And that a WG knows better how much of a dog a man is, they are all the more likely to be such.
.... they are more likely to go CRAZY on you than what you and I know as being 'regular girls.I agree. We are all people no matter what work we do. Wg's are women, mongers are guys. Some of us have double standards, other might not. I think wg's know and maybe expect men to be "dogs". My experience with 2 wg gf's is that they don't mind you having sex with their consent, but will be pissed if they think you've deceived them or made them lose face by going with a friend - or worse - competitor.

Maybe we all have double standards depending on our circumstances.

Sasha Coffee

12-15-06, 03:51

In the end all relationships come down to honesty and respect.

A clients relationship with WG is no different. The more respect a client gives me and treats me with the more he will get in return. The better service I will provide.

This is true of all service industry whether it be sexual or in a restaurant or bar or wherever. It is also true of a normal relationship. Most people see having sex outside your relationship as disrespectful and dishonest thats what they get upset about, not the actual physical sex act.

A personal relationship with a WG is exactly the same as with any other girl. If the WG is honest about her work takes her money for a service and still looks after her man, it is no different than her going to work at Walmart or in the boardroom. The trick with a working girl is if you're going to shag someone else let her know, she will handle it, we understand the difference between a shag and having sex with your partner. All men need to spread it round a bit and if the truth be told so will women given the opportunity.

If you're dating a WG and you want to shag another WG make sure you pay for it, and don't use your WG girlfriends money to do it with (thats the ultimate in disrespect) and don't shag another WG that your girlfriend doesn't like.

Come on guys this aint rocket science its just human nature.

Anyway people for those of you that celebrate Christmas may you all have lots of fun and keep the condoms full and be safe.

Don't make New Years resolution it only depresses you when you wake up on the 1st Jan with a hangover and realise you won't keep them.

Bango Cheito

12-15-06, 04:22

Everybody has a different tipping point, and different buttons that can be (sometimes inadvertently) pushed. Think of the famous union between Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo. They supposedly had an open relationship but she thought he went too far when he banged her own sister. Then HE thought SHE went too far when she banged Trotsky.

Petercal

12-15-06, 12:49

It is a sad story. It happens a lot for girls that don't know what they want. She wants a guy to love her, he wants her but he doesn't take her away from her job.

He doesnt like her work but he doesn't help her away from it.

Guys want sex worker girls to be their girlfriend but dont give enough money so the girl stays doing the same job. Why dont they take the girl away? That is what Meow wants.

Lots of foreign guys want a girl to be their girlfriend and stop working but they dont give the girl any money to live. The girl wants to stop work but cant if she doesnt have enough money to pay her apartment. They dont give up their wife so what the girl should do?

It is easy to tell other people but not easy to do it yourself. I lose my boyfriend because I don't stop working. Next time I know what to do.

Chochet Meow story is sad. It tells if a guy want a sex worker girl, give her chance and take her away. If the girls wants a new life she should make risk.The Chochet & Meow story illustrated the influence of fate on a relationship with a WG. There were things between the lines that suggest that the guy wasn't able to take the girl away (he didn't have enough money) and that the girl wasn't able to chose love over duty (she didn't choose her family; she was just saddled with them). Circumstances beyond their control ultimately wore them out. That's why this story was so tragic to me.

I tend to believe fate is a bigger influence than what much of this discussion have alluded to. I can see how someone's emphasis may be on individual free will and the belief of his/her choice making a difference. That may be true for some people, especially if they have the ample financial means. For others in more tricky situations, well, perhaps such relationships are not meant to be.

OK, that was a bit obtuse. I like to explain my situation to shed more light, but this may diverge a bit from the topic of discussion so far:

I fell in love (OK, that may be premature; perhaps infatuated is more appropriate) with a Macau sauna girl. Long story short, after a week I paid off her debt to her agent so she could choose to leave Macau (no strings attached; seriously, I did not ask her to leave even though I wanted her to). Of course, this didn't resolve the root cause of why she was in Macau in the first place so I promised her a large sum of money (I understand the need to be realistic at this point; she may or may not have feelings for me, but feelings alone will not feed her & her family). I gave her about US$12K in the last month or so. I'll likely double that by spring. Back in the Sichuan countryside that should be enough for some time.

I admit that I had bad images going through my head while she was working (especially some of things she was asked to do or else be fined). Maybe that's why it didn't seem so hard for me to come up with the money. On the other hand, I was a bit repulsed by the idea that she'll see this money as going to "keep" her (I keep thinking of the story she told me about the 58-year-old guy that wanted her as a mistress when she was 17; for the record, I'm single 36 y.o. & she's 20 y.o.). So we agreed that I'll give her enough to start her own business & that's the end of my financial support (I know, but it's too early to talk about marriage).

I guess that this arrangement required that I'm mentally prepared to writeoff the entirety of what I give her. Problem is, my brain can accept this, but I don't know about my heart. So far, what has motivated me to do all of this is my heart, not my brain. I can calm my heart so far by accepting this whole relationship as fate-driven (we have "yuan2" but we don't know about "fen4")
. This brings me back to my original point about recognizing that perhaps success in a relationship with a WG is more governed by fate than anything else (at least I keep telling myself that because I feel so powerless, oh well).

To avoid cluttering up this board, you can PM me for more details.

Petercal

12-15-06, 13:21

Most guys dont want their girlfriend to do this job but they dont give them enough money to live. If you see Chochets story, only after Meow died of drugs he is sorry.

If a guy loves a sex worker girl it is very easy for him to take her away to a new life. Most will be a good wife.I don't think that's fair to say about all the guys. My love/infatuation (see my other long post) once said to me that "it's in a xiao jie's job description to lie for money" (-sarcasm mode on- of course, she would never do that to me -sarcasm mode off-). A guy may not trust that the girl truly has feelings for him. Thus, he may be reluctant to support her without a visible sign of commitment, like quiting the WG job that bothers him. On the other hand, from the girl's perspective, it is exactly as you described. This chicken/egg problem cannot be resolved without one side taking that initial leap. Trust can then develop if the other side can recognize how difficult it is to make that blind leap.

The problem is, unless you understand how the other side thinks, it may be hard to recognize how difficult it is for the other person to make that blind leap (at least recognize it in time to cherish it meaningfully). I understand what you're saying, but I think there is something not said about balancing the perspectives.

Alex Rock

12-15-06, 16:56

A personal relationship with a WG is exactly the same as with any other girl. If the WG is honest about her work takes her money for a service and still looks after her man, it is no different than her going to work at Walmart or in the boardroom. The trick with a working girl is if you're going to shag someone else let her know, she will handle it, we understand the difference between a shag and having sex with your partner. All men need to spread it round a bit and if the truth be told so will women given the opportunity.

If you're dating a WG and you want to shag another WG make sure you pay for it, and don't use your WG girlfriends money to do it with (thats the ultimate in disrespect) and don't shag another WG that your girlfriend doesn't like.
Sasha, You put it so eloquently !! Well said

Alex Rock

12-15-06, 17:44

Sorry to labour this question. I am hovering between choosing an ex wg as a life partner or looking for a “regular” girl as a partner.

After being devastated to find my previous gf was a wg and going through months of psychological hell before I could understand that sex work is a job and that many of my previous mindsets were based on traditional male perceptions I am faced with some new dilemmas.

I could not stay with my gf after I found out her work was a “high class” escort serving clients almost every day. Even after she came clean and opened up, I felt betrayed and cuckolded. (As Chinese say to “wear a green hat”).

After I “played” with several girls, I got close to some other wg’s as friends, one or two as very close friends, now one is seriously a potential life partner.

She is totally honest with me about everything. Anything I ask she answers without hesitation. It makes me trust her. In fact I trust her completely because she will tell me anything I ask and I can say anything to her. When we sent to Thailand for a holiday, she had fun coming with me to a bathhouse and wanted to watch a girl give me full service.

This is my dilemma.

She says she will be sexually faithful. She'd had sex with over a thousand guys but says it was all business. Sometimes she had fun and could have orgasms. Often she was catering to their desires and she’d “dress to please” or role play. Now, she says she has no interest in sex with anyone else again. She also says she doesn’t care if I want sex with other women AS LONG AS I SHARE IT WITH HER. She says “All men” need to screw around, so she accepts it and as long as I don’t do anything behind her back, she will accept it, and maybe even enjoy sharing it and joining in.

My problems are that she has had sex with so many guys; maybe she thinks sex with me isn’t special. Maybe other guys were better or bigger or lasted longer or made her come more. Maybe she compares me to some super studs ?!?!?!? Maybe I'm too "ordinary".

Intellectually I’m OK with it, emotionally I’m in a dilemma.

Can you working girls help me? If you settle down with one guy, do you think about sex with super studs ?. How do you look at your mate who might not be so adventurous or skilled sexually as other guys you have had.?

Rubber Nursey, you’ve talked about your partner; saying you would like group sex but he’s happy with ordinary “normal sex” and doesn’t want to experiment. Do you fantasize for the kind of sex you had with other guys? Do you feel unfulfilled sexually with a guy who likes less “active” sex? Would this be a potential problem some day?

My question is: “If I decide to settle with the ex wg as a life partner, should I worry that for her, sex with me is not special”????? Should I worry that after months or years with one guy, who doesn’t do all the stuff she used to do, that she may crave for “wilder” or more “aggressive” sex??

As wg’s, what advice would you give to a guy considering settling down with an ex wg?? Are there things I need to ask her or to deal with?

If you were about to settle down with a guy, what would you want? How could you address a typical guy’s emotional concerns and confidence issues settling with an ex wg as a life partner?? How could you make yourselves feel confident it would be good for both of you long term?

Are there any issues wg's would be concerned about with their guys? Would you be worried your guys couldn't handle it?

Alex

Bango Cheito

12-15-06, 19:24

Sasha Coffee

12-17-06, 08:27

To answer your question.

For me I don't see any difference between sex with a client and sex with a partner. But thats just me, I think that we all take something from every sexual experience and use it in another sexual experience, some things we learn are good and some things are bad.

Perhaps what you're really trying to find out is can you satisfy her. Well thats something that you need to decide for yourself. Personally I think that your main problem is your confidence in your sexual ability.

For your girlfriend I doubt she would be with you at all if she thought you were a bad shag. As a WG she will have had some terrible ones and trust me when I say WG are very shallow when it comes to bad sex from their boyfriend. Its just not acceptable. So stop beating yourself up about whether she finds you boring in bed and whether she can be faithful. Its the same risk with a girl who hasn't been a WG.

Life is short and if you find someone that makes you happy grab it. It doesn't happen to many people all that often. So what she used to be a WG, at least you know if you loose your job your not going to starve. WG are a valuable asset in any relationship they can always make an income whatever circumstances you find yourself in.

Sorry not trying to make light of your situation just maybe open your eyes to possibilities and situations.

If you love the girl go get her, or you might miss out. Remember WG have spent alot of time with men and have an uncanny knack to see when you start having doubts and their intuitition will always tell them. Stop second guessing and just do. To overthink a situation will only show you more and more negatives.

George90

12-17-06, 18:55

Bottom line is, you have to trust in order to love. You can't have love without trust. If she says you're the man, you're the man. If you want the relationship to work you have to bring yourself to believe her and trust her.

Those are VERY wise words! I agree with them 100%. I have met many women, mostly American, who claim vows of love with a man and in the next breath say they don't trust him. Now, I could care less about love. I need a woman to TRUST me!

Petercal

12-18-06, 11:43

A couple of points:

Those are VERY wise words! I agree with them 100%. I have met many women, mostly American, who claim vows of love with a man and in the next breath say they don't trust him. Now, I could care less about love. I need a woman to TRUST me!Love can mean so many things to so many different people. You and Bango Cheito are wise point to single out trust as the important element. However, I wonder how often trust is freely given instead of earned.

Life is short and if you find someone that makes you happy grab it. It doesn't happen to many people all that often.

If you love the girl go get her, or you might miss out.

Stop second guessing and just do. To overthink a situation will only show you more and more negatives.Exactly. My regret over missed opportunities haunted me for a long time. At least it did until I realized I should turn my head around to look at the road ahead. I found that I have been much happier by keeping an open mind and a positive attitude.

I laugh you think I am a man. You can read Chinese book <Give me a cigarette> by Bian Dashu who work as a KTV escort. <给我一支烟> 变大树. Her book will show you how we feel and think. Girls in China read the book a lot and after you read you will know our life. We are normal girls, we can like sex, we can love people and we can be scared when we work and we can be lonely.

I laugh you think I am a man. After the book maybe you think Bian Dashu is a man too. HahaI'm just curious if anyone here read this novel (attached below; this version is missing a few chapters, but they can be found elsewhere on the web). I can see why it would be popular, though I wonder if it is art imitating life or the other way around. The characters, except Xiao Liu (肖琳), are very human, possessing base frailties likes jealousy, vanity, and pride that tear apart relationships. After reading this book, I don't think Bian Dashu is a man; I think she's just human.

China Lily

12-18-06, 17:42

She wont think about customers. Once I stopped work and married. I loved my husband for the half year I was with him and half year I come back to China for my visa. When I was with him I was very happy and never thought about any customers. He always wanted sex in the morning, the same position every time. It was not special sex but I always feel good even if I wanted another position. My work was never in my head.

After he dumped me for a Brazil girl, I went back to my escort work and in one day it was like I never stopped. I wear my old mask and become the escort girl. I think your ex wg girlfriend will be the same. She knows what she wants. She is more lucky than me because she can tell you everything so she has no secret. It will make her feel good that she can be honest and feel free with you.

When I found a new boyfriend. I was crazy about him but didnt tell him my work. Sex with him was different from customers. When I am with him, I take my mask off and I feel safe and warm. He would do sex the way I like it. If you do it the way she likes she will be happy and not think about customers.

My mistake was I lied to my boyfriend, so after he knew about my work he wont trust me any more.

Your girlfriend is lucky she tells you everything because it makes her feel clean inside her head with you. She is not guilty in her head. I think you are lucky a girl can be honest with you. Working girls make good wife because they know men very well.

It is not easy to feel good trust and free with somebody. Tell her what you think and what you worry about so she feels safe with you.

Some girls are afraid that one day they are with their husband and meet an old customer. I think you ask her now what you both do if it happens one day so you will both be ok.

You shouldnt ask her to throw her phone numbers away, but when she does you can feel safer and be happy with her.

Alex Rock

12-19-06, 03:29

Alex Rock

12-19-06, 03:30

I had heard about this book but not seen it. It seems to be popular among wg's.

Alex Rock

12-19-06, 03:33

Remember WG have spent alot of time with men and have an uncanny knack to see when you start having doubts and their intuitition will always tell them.I guess I hadn't realised that. Does it mean you would find it easier or harder to trust guys? Or easier to see if a guy is trustworthy?

Sasha Coffee

12-20-06, 20:01

I'm not sure really Alex. I don't think it makes me anymore aware of whether someone is trustworthy or not. I'm a softie and tend to believe everyone until they prove otherwise.

As for trusting men, to say yes or no would be making a sweeping judgement. I think that I trust certain people in situations and other people in other situations.

Sexually do I believe that men can be faithful, no I don't. Do I believe woman can be faithful, no not that either. Both sexes were put on earth to populate it. Marriage and monogamy were designed by the church to keep the masses under control. Much like welfare in modern times.

I don't think fidelity is important in a relationship I think commitment, honesty and common goals are.

Cunning 1

12-21-06, 03:05

Sasha,

I love your comments:

"Sexually do I believe that men can be faithful, no I don't. Do I believe woman can be faithful, no not that either"

and the way it differentiates between a human need (and one of my favourites) and :

"I don't think fidelity is important in a relationship I think commitment, honesty and common goals are"

That is the way my life has developed and I am sure a lot of people would consider it hypocritical, but why would partners want to lose a loving committed relationship because one partner had a quick night with a WG?

When we're old and grey it will matter not. You can take all those memories to your grave and hope that at the Pearly Gates the gatekeeper has been a monger during his or her life.

C1

Clandestine782

12-22-06, 10:19

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Where are the men in this horrific story?
It isn't just the killer who is invisible. So are the guys in cars who regard women as sex aids
Published: 18 December 2006
I was on the 207 bus on Thursday, sitting next to a fat man with a hairy face and cracked lips with The Sun in his hand. Turning the pages, he muttered: "Just effing tarts on the game." Then his eyes rested happily on the breasts of the naked Page 3 model, a treat his paper offers him daily. I said nothing, but seethed. He looked like a chap who would need to buy sex, even in these times when it is offered up for free by young women game for casual sex.

This momentary encounter clarified for me why I have felt so uneasy about the coverage of the murders of the five Ipswich prostitutes. Where are the men in this shocking story? It isn't just the killer who is invisible; so are the male pimps and the customers, the guys concealed in their cars who regard women as sex aids they buy to use as they wish. As with drug addiction, suppliers are the focus of public and police attention, not the consumers, without whom there would be no trade and destruction.

I have never understood why the purchasers of loveless sex should expect and are granted automatic anonymity while prostitutes have their lives completely uncovered and exposed when there is a crime committed against them. They, too, have mums and dads, siblings and children, who will then have to deal with the fallout of such an onslaught on their privacy.

With a gruesome murder, some publicity is essential when evidence is being gathered. The public needs to know facts essential to the cases. Last week, all parents became more aware how drugs can inject themselves into any household, leading young addicts then to sell their bodies for cash to pay for the next fix.

However, nothing explains or vindicates the way entire families of the victims are dragged into the story - as they have been for the past few days - when they have so much to deal with, including loss and guilt that their daughters were caught up in what is, and always has been, a perilous occupation. "How do you feel?", they ask a bewildered father, who hasn't seen his dead daughter since she was a little girl. What do they expect him to say that we can't imagine he will? This is emotional porn.

The appearance in the media over so many days of photographs of the murdered young women feels like an overstimulation. There are many out there excited and titillated by the story, which is both a movie thriller and a Victorian melodrama with footsteps of other real life slashers and stranglers. When Dennis Nielsenkilled his male victims, I didn't feel there was anything creepy about the coverage. Public horror was not smeared in drool. These women are dissed in death as they were in life.

To call the women "working girls" is to deny the range of risks a prostitute takes the minute she steps into a place alone with a stranger or a known punter. There are superconfident prostitutes who say they are doing a job they like and which pays well. They are a minority. All across the world, this profession demeans and endangers women and young girls. Trafficked women - big business now - have no protection at all. Few females are physically stronger than males; few of the men who use prostitutes feel genuine affection or respect for the women they paw and enter. Some users can become attached to particular providers and are thereby the weaker partners in the arrangement, but that is neither respect nor affection.

Pretty Woman is only a fantasy, and the film's undying popularity a sign of how we kid ourselves about the malign effects of prostitution. Squillionaire gentleman do not embrace prostitutes in daylight nor take them as lifelong, trusted partners. The rich have always wanted and arranged to have skilful, beautiful concubines, but with the understanding that no cultural sophistication, loyalty, sexual magnetism or intellect can ever make women who charge for their services worthy of love or commitment.

The *****s exist to keep the good women pure, that, too, is a running male hypocrisy. I have met a number of Muslim men in our northern towns who pray devotedly, hang tasbis (rosaries) on their car windows and pimp for a living. When I ask them how they can do the two they usually explain the trading girls are "bad" and their own women belong to Allah.

Pakeezah is an extraordinary old Hindi movie - an exposé of such wretched prejudices and double standards. A squire falls genuinely in love with a beautiful courtesan who lives in an enclave of sensual opulence but removed from the "decent" folk. She agrees to marry him, but only if he publicly performs all the rituals expected when a young virgin weds. That is her condition, her test, to be given the badge of honour in an uncaring society. The women who were snuffed out by the killer in Suffolk deserve and have been denied that honour and respect.

y.alibhai-brown@ independent.co.uk

Bango Cheito

12-23-06, 16:55

I agree with most of what she said, but the key point she misses is that most of the bad effects of prostitution are due to its very illegality. And if people don't except prostitutes for who and what they are that is the fault OF THE PEOPLE!

Billy Ibrox

12-24-06, 05:36

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1978487,00.html

The Independent is almost as big a rag as the Observer. Have a read ae the above article and see the amounts who have hepatitis C. See also the amount ae junkies in the UK? Fae fuck's sake. All the women on the game are junkies so most ae them have Hep C and probably even more.

The two lads lifed over these stififngs seem to be total nutters. Wright was a steward on the QE2 fae fucks sake. The other git was a supermarket storehand.
Nutters kill hookers and hoboes because there is a better chance ae nae getting caught. What we need is a place to fuck hookers with nae smack and nae nutters. Tyhe Philippines seems the best place fae LBFMs and a cum drenched Christmas.

Sasha Coffee

12-27-06, 06:15

Not all working girls are junkies or have Hep C.

Before you decide to put everyone in your tiny pigeon holes do some research.

Saying all working girls are junkies is ridiculous thats like saying all Americans are war mongers or English people like B&D. its just pathetic.

Obviously your intelligence level is sorely lacking and your experience of the sex industry is very limited, and thats before I comment on your grammer or spelling.

Victoria007

12-29-06, 17:21

I've come to the conclusion that all men, at sometime or other want sex with a variety of women, and very few men can stay faithful to their wives. I'd much rather have my husband fuck an escort or a working girl than develop a relationship with someone at work or from our local pub. What happened in Ipswich was very sad. The good thing is that the police decided not to threaten anyone who came forward and made reports of what they'd seen or heard and that the massage parlours opened their doors to street walkers.

Believe me. I once thought working girls were evil and the men that went to them were dirty depraived assholes.

Now I've totally changed my views. Working girls give men what they need and in a non committed relationship that doesn't threaten their marriages and stable relationships. We should not think of working girls as any different from hairdressers or manicurists who provide services to men. If we brush them all with the same brush we should brush all men with the same brush too.

The men that use working girls services are normal - they come from all walks of life; many are happily married me looking for a thrill or a release. The girls also come from all walks of life. Some are normal girls with normal loves, others are well educated girls who have made educated choices, others need the money desperately to support their kids. They are women just like me - it's just that I've not chosen to sell sex to strangers.

Go easy on working girls. They are cleaner than many girls you'd pick up in a pub, and they need support and friendships just like we all do.

China Lily

12-29-06, 17:46

You dont know sex worker girls. We know how to be safer than girls who do not do this work. You will get disease easier from girls who kiss you in a bar or who let you sex with them without condom but not from professional girls.

Some customers think that they can buy a girl and just because he pays her for one time she should go with him whenever he wants. I know many customers look down on escort girls, but we do not beg them to marry us. I look down on some of those customers they think a little bit of money makes them a king and we should do anything they want. Nice customers treat me with respect and polite.

Where do you think girls get disease from - you should see some customer who dont wash or clean their mouth.

Get to know some sex worker girls before you write stupid ideas

China Lily

12-29-06, 19:28

Trust seems to be difficult or impossible to recover once it's been lost. China Lily asked me why I couldn't go back with my previous wg girlfriend after I found out what she did and after she'd opened up to me. It's simple the trust had been broken and memories of the pain would sudenly spring back.

That's why I trust the wg gf I now spend considerable time with. She's so transparent, honest and accepting of all the things women don't seem to like about guys. She's great fun to be with. She doesn't blink if I date other girls but for some reason she says she feels bad if I tell her I kissed someone on the lips!!You go with working girls so why did you not trust your girlfriend when she told you she was an escort. You do the same as she does. I think you are hipocrit because you go with lots of girls but you dont accept it when you find your girlfriend did the same thing.

You say it is because she did not tell you, but I think you didnt tell her or your new girlfriend you go with lots of girls the same. Its not fair.

I think you and your girlfriend are the same, she didnt tell you and you didnt tell her. Now you can be honest with each other so why not try to go back to her?

Sasha Coffee

12-29-06, 22:11

There have been many hookers that have participated in the history of the world.

Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice Davies if you don't know who they are google their name and learn some recent English history.

Pamela Davies, a previous Miss India who worked as a hooker, her room was close to the English parliament and had a bell in it so the policticians could jump off her and race back to work,

Heidi Fleis, somehow I think she doing ok, she was making money out of superstars that the average girl would shag for free.

Xavier Hollander shes made millions from her book on her years as a WG.

And Billy I hope you don't watch porn cause they are all WGs as well, and I know for a fact that they must be checked for all diseases before any filming can commence.

I could carry naming on world famous WGs but I think you get my drift.

Sasha Coffee

12-29-06, 22:13

Welcome back.

Love the new thought process.

You have my respect and admiration for your strength, intelligence and ability to adjust to situation.

Be proud and walk tall.

Yonman

01-04-07, 04:36

A lot of the sex workers catching diseases are likely catching them on their own free time. In general people have a much lower risk of catching diseases in a 'professional' encounter then if they're in a bar getting it for free from some drunk girl or if they have an unfaithful/promiscuous partner. On the other hand there are certain practices that seem to be pretty popular now that pose a real disease hazard according to the studies I've read.

Personally I don't think sex workers are any worse or any better then any other women. They're pretty much the same whether that's a good thing or bad thing. The main difference is if the sex worker is disagreeable or doesn't like the client he doesn't have to be around her any longer then he needs to be and he's getting what he wants/needs.

Alex Rock

01-06-07, 03:56

You go with working girls so why did you not trust your girlfriend when she told you she was an escort. You do the same as she does. I think you are hipocrit because you go with lots of girls but you dont accept it when you find your girlfriend did the same thing.

You say it is because she did not tell you, but I think you didnt tell her or your new girlfriend you go with lots of girls the same. Its not fair.

I think you and your girlfriend are the same, she didnt tell you and you didnt tell her. Now you can be honest with each other so why not try to go back to her?My ex girlfriend said exactly the same thing and it's right. I can't explain my hypocrisy except to say I loved her and the discovery of deception and intense jealousy left me with scars and associations which come back.

I also felt uneasy if we'd go out and some guy would stare at her or look twice as though he recognised her, then they'd both act like they were pretending not to know each other. I felt there was some deception going on.

With the wg I am now close to, I don't feel that way at all. If we go out and she happens to bump into a client or guy she has arranged girls for, she'll tell me openly. It makes me feel she's open and honest. Maybe that's the difference!. It's how I feel, not how I try to explain it.

When my gf opened eventually told me what she did, I was obsessed with how she felt having sex with clients. I wanted to believe it was different with me compared to clients. She always said it was, and you've said the same. Her unwillingness to talk openly about sex with clients bugged me. The wg I now spend time with is open like a book. It's like she'll tell me anything I ask without hesitation which makes me trust her.

Alex Rock

01-06-07, 03:57

Boy you've changed you views quickly!. I guess that's what happened to me too after an emotional shock. I had prejudices against wg until I fell in love with one and got to know several as friends.

Sasha Coffee

01-08-07, 08:08

George90

01-09-07, 16:08

I have answered lots and lots of questions and given my opinion on many things involving sex workers. I was wondering something:

What is it that men look for in a sex worker, and what is it that she does thats makes her a good sex worker in your eyes?

I read Xaviera Hollander's book in the 70's. Judging from the wide variety of clients she had and my own mongering experience, I think you will get as many opinions as there are men.

I can say what I makes a good sex worker for me.

1) Pleasantness.

For me, she has to be a nice person to be around. Generally that means she smiles enough, she smells nice (ie. non-smoker), low key behavior and dress(ie. non-(heavy) drinker), she doesn't yell and scream at me or others, she makes me the focus of her attention (ie. the cell phone is turned OFF).

2) Good Communication.

That is mostly my responsibility since I monger in countries where most sex workers don't speak English. But given that I am making the effort, she should be clear about what she is willing to do, not willing to do, the price to be paid, the time we are going to spend together, etc. Being vague or only hinting at things is a turn-off for me.

3) Honesty.

She needs to follow through with what she agreed to. Changing her mind in mid-stream is no good. Saying that she needs to leave early is no good. ALL condition, limits, restrictions, and caveats need to be discussed up front BEFORE the deal is set.

4) Pretend to Enjoy Herself

I have been with WGs who stared at the ceiling or otherwise absented themselves mentally. I lost interest and couldn't continue performing. I have been with WGs who had unfakeable orgasms. Sex with them is a true joy! This latter group almost always showed me where and how to touch them or suggested positions in which they also were well stimulated. I have found that the impatient WGs are the most likely to lie there like lumps of coal except to ask you to hurry up. I have also found that when I talk with a WG for a while, the impatient ones leave. So my MO is to chat her up and see if her business is more the money or more good service.

This is all I have to say so far. I have not mentioned looks. That is not a mistake.

Lazzaro

01-09-07, 18:16

I have answered lots and lots of questions and given my opinion on many things involving sex workers. I was wondering something:
What is it that men look for in a sex worker, and what is it that she does thats makes her a good sex worker in your eyes?

Ciao Sasha

I agree with George90:

On my side, me too I can only say what makes a sex worker "good" for me.

1) Also fo me, she should be the typical girl you go to drink something with.
No vulgar and a little bit feminine
She should not have a "bad smell" and she should put me at the centre of her attention (ie. the cell phone is turned OFF ABSOLUTELY!!!!!).
I know, I could be accused to be a "male sciovinist", but at the end, I look for a "lover" not for a "wife" :)

2) She should be honest from the beginning.
Sometimes what it is not said in advance, there is no reson to say it (i.e.: touching breast. Not said in advance does not mean I can't touch) ALL condition, limits, restrictions, must be discussed BEFORE the deal is set.

3) I was too with WGs who saw the ceiling or she was completely absent mentally.
Everyone lost interest and couldn't continue the performance.
If I try to give her some pleasure, she should relax and try to take it, without feign.
At least, she should tells you where and how to touch them or suggested positions in which they also were well stimulated (as also written by George90).

I look for a "normal" girl (the typical closest door girl), who's able to say something on what happens in the world (not only politics or sports and neither talking about "Pussy" or "dick" or "fuck", and so on)
But overall is most important she looks at me not as a "cow to milk" and neither ask me "how many time to finish? are you ready to explode?" and so on.
In fact I'm going "quite" regularly into an apartment whre there are 2 Chinese girls.
It is nice spend some time chatting about "how to cook this" or the difference of the Italian way of life compared with the Chinese one.

Ciao

Tile Man4

01-10-07, 06:27

Ciao Sasha

I agree with George90:

On my side, me too I can only say what makes a sex worker "good" for me.

1) Also fo me, she should be the typical girl you go to drink something with.
No vulgar and a little bit feminine

She should not have a "bad smell" and she should put me at the centre of her attention (ie. the cell phone is turned OFF ABSOLUTELY!!!!!).

I know, I could be accused to be a "male sciovinist", but at the end, I look for a "lover" not for a "wife" :)

2) She should be honest from the beginning.

Sometimes what it is not said in advance, there is no reson to say it (i.e.: touching breast. Not said in advance does not mean I can't touch) ALL condition, limits, restrictions, must be discussed BEFORE the deal is set.

3) I was too with WGs who saw the ceiling or she was completely absent mentally.
Everyone lost interest and couldn't continue the performance.

If I try to give her some pleasure, she should relax and try to take it, without feign.
At least, she should tells you where and how to touch them or suggested positions in which they also were well stimulated (as also written by George90).

I look for a "normal" girl (the typical closest door girl), who's able to say something on what happens in the world (not only politics or sports and neither talking about "Pussy" or "dick" or "fuck", and so on)

But overall is most important she looks at me not as a "cow to milk" and neither ask me "how many time to finish? are you ready to explode?" and so on.

In fact I'm going "quite" regularly into an apartment whre there are 2 Chinese girls.
It is nice spend some time chatting about "how to cook this" or the difference of the Italian way of life compared with the Chinese one.

CiaoI agree you you 1000% - THAT CELL PHONE OFF . Several WG almost got that cell phone up their ass and not my dick. WG's sell themself , that means I own them for 1 hour or more. The same way my boss owns me for 8 hours a day. I don't want them conducting more business when I am trying to get my rocks off. WG's want respect and so do I. I see 6 year old kids with cell phone in China. Its crazy

tilegpc4

Alex Rock

01-10-07, 12:36

Sasha, Boy, we're all willing to tell you.

I think what makes a wg stand out from the pack are:

She focusses on you when you are with her - no phone, no disinterest, no distraction, no rush. No "hurry up"

She helps you relax - we can be nervous, especially with new girls or in a strange place. She smiles and lets you feel OK. She asks you if there's anything you'd like. Willing to do things that turn you on.

She makes you feel safe and clean and she smells good - not over perfumed.

She acts friendly, especially when it's time to go.

Bango Cheito

01-10-07, 15:22

i think most of it is what applies anywhere in the business world. being punctual (in situations where it applies), presentable, and personable. i personally don't mind at all if a girl swears or talks really dirty, i like that in a woman. most smart wgs would pick up on that, because i would be applying hints with a sledgehammer. obviously baiting and switching are never cool in business of any sort.

the one thing i don't like are girls that have lots of limits, especially really unnecessary ones. i can appreciate things like not doing anal if the girl really isn't up to speed with her ability in that area, for example. but sometimes you get real weird shit like a girl who only wants to do one position, as another example. i like lots of variety in my sex, not just in with whom i do it but also in what happens. personally i don't understand at all because if i put myself in a wg's shoes i'd be very up for anything that allowed me to have a break from the regular suck-and-fuck.

Lazzaro

01-10-07, 17:52

......I personally don't mind at all if a girl swears or talks really dirty, I like that in a woman. Most smart WGs would pick up on that, because I would be applying hints with a sledgehammer......
I don't formalize either if she speaks dirty "during" the action (or sometime...).
What I meant (these are typical problem of translation....sorry!) is: I don't look for a graduate girls, but neither an illiterate one.
I don't like person who swears like a trooper; who says a swearword every 3 words; who is coarse,........

Hope to clarify

Sasha Coffee

01-10-07, 19:07

Tile Man4

01-11-07, 01:56

Thanks guys thats a start.

I ask because I want to put your posts up in my parlour and show the girls what men require.

I'm so pleased you wrote the Cell phone one, that drives me nuts also. I hate seeing girls sitting there texting when clients are around.

Other than that now I see why I'm a good WG. Its the simple things, on time, well groomed, well dressed, well spoken

Sex in multi positions without the prude attitude.

Keep it coming I'm dying to know more.

How bout what is one thing that a WG will do that can you leave you totally turned off or something she can do that can turn you on.Kick some ass with your WG's Sasha. The cell phone game is very rude. We western men are told that Chinese women are the most polite and respectful in the world. I hope this is true , BUT , they are rude with that cell phone.

I don't think the WG will do this in front of a Chinese client , because the Chinese man will not accept this shit. True or not true?

Also , tell your WG , don't be shy to stat the action . Most western men like this. And most western men will accept NO to oral and anal if the WG does not like this. There are a million ways to make a man happy. PLAY PLAY PLAY

Chinese women are taught to pamper men and even be slaves to men. Western men like the play and pamper , BUT , most of us are not looking for a slave. Also Sasha , most western men like to give his women pleasure and many Chinese men don't care about his woman's pleasure. Tell your WG to accept pleasure. Most western men will forget about his Orgasm (high Tide)
one hour after he has his orgasm , BUT , he will NEVER forget the orgasm that he gives his woman.

I'm not bashing Chinese men , they are good men , but I have hear some stories that many of them only think about himself and not his woman. If I heard wrong , then I am sorry to all you Chinese men.

Tell your WG's that western men love to give oral , yes , even a WG. Chinese men tell you Chinese women that they will lose face if they give a woman oral. Lose face my ass. What about your face when your WG must give oral?

Tell your WG's to ask for oral , they will be very surprised how many men will give them the best orgasm they ever had. Men like to be asked and told what to do too. Being asked TURNS us on.

Good luck girl and make some money.

Tilegpc4

Bango Cheito

01-11-07, 06:21

Personally, and I think I'm also speaking in general on this one, i think WGs need to forget about the hard sell, at least on the verbal level. I'm thinking specifically of incall, strip clubs, underground parties etc. This is one of the BIG differences I noticed between Latin America and the US. The guys are there, they've paid admission, they're ready to go. They are just trying to decide with whom.

Often the best way (IMO) to close the deal for a WG is simply to rub up against the guy, sit in his lap, purr in his ear etc. Talking is a little more difficult, as Lazzaro pointed out, what would work for me wouldn't work for him. But of course as you probably already know the idea is to figure out what the guy is looking for and do your best to become that, or if you can't get close enough, just move on.

Lazzaro

01-11-07, 14:27

Thanks guys thats a start.
......
Keep it coming I'm dying to know more.
..........
How bout what is one thing that a WG will do that can you leave you totally turned off or something she can do that can turn you on.
Dearest Sasha

I think it is the same as for the other trades.
I do often a comparison (analogy, parallel. Sorry I really don't know the correct English term) with friends:
If you go to a small restaurant where you pay, all-inclusive (including drinks), 15 Euro (dollars,......) you get a 15 euro service. It means that the waiters could works in "undershirt" and slipper and with toothpick in the mouth. Food could be the best, but all around you makes you feel unconfortable as you are in a filthy restaurant
If you go to a restaurant where you pay 60 Euro, you get also a better service. Waiters are well dressed, polite, the restaurand seems clean........Even if the food is not the best, it appears you better than it is in the truth.
If you go to a restaurant where a small bottle of water it costs you 30 Euro, you expect the waiters with a white gloves, you expect they change the cutlery every time even if you have not used them, you expect a waiters who fill up your glass everytime you drink, .....In few words: you expect the best of the best and even if the food is not the best, it looks like something to die for.
The same is for a WG: On my side, when I go with a WG, it is not a simply matter of "insert/shake/spurt" (like Bam Wham thank you mom), but it is something more.
I don't say that chemistry play its game, but also that could be a good item.
If I pay a WG 25 Euro, the service will be compared with the expense.
If I pay 60 Euro, I'm expecting what I'm looking for basically.
And so on........

Ciao

Sasha Coffee

01-11-07, 18:57

here being a wg is not a crime, two years ago we made prostitution legal. yippeeeee.

ok so when a client comes into a brothel and pays for a lady he is paying at the door to the receptionist. when he has the lady of his choice and is in the room he doesn't need to open his wallet again. unless ofcourse he has negotiated with the lady in question for what we call extra services of anal etc. (you get my drift)..

therefore the wg here provides the basic service of massage, suck, f...

what interests me is that some girls have the ability to make guys turn up there every week and part with their money and other girls have no idea thats the name of the game. a regular client is worth their weight in gold.

my other recent observation is that the wg with the regular clientelle don't tend to be the young pretty thing, but the working girl in my age group (30-35). why is it that these young girls don't appeal to the clients for a regular visit?

Zing23

01-11-07, 23:33

My other recent observation is that the WG with the regular clientelle don't tend to be the young pretty thing, but the working girl in my age group (30-35). Why is it that these young girls don't appeal to the clients for a regular visit?
My experience has been that the young pretty things don't make that a super effort in the room. They may be very flirty and arousing in the bar (our legal brothels are also bars, where you mingle with the girls and drink and perhaps make a selection, or not), but in the room they are usually lacking in one thing or another: too passive, or too restrictive (no intimacy such as kissing or BBBJ or even caressing and snuggling), or even inexperienced in love making (it is a learned skill after all), too concerned about the elapsed time, etc. They sometimes seem to be saying to the client - you are lucky to be in the bed with me, accept what little I have to offer.

My theory has been that being the cutest and the youngest, they get a lot of customers anyway, so they don't have the incentive to try harder and build repeat clientele. And perhaps they have been getting what they want from men wihout much effort since they hit puberty!

I try not to be prejudiced against beautiful WG because I have had some incredible encounters with beautiful ones. But the odds say that it is less likely....

-zing

George90

01-12-07, 19:37

What interests me is that some girls have the ability to make guys turn up there every week and part with their money and other girls have no idea thats the name of the game. A regular client is worth their weight in gold.

My other recent observation is that the WG with the regular clientelle don't tend to be the young pretty thing, but the working girl in my age group (30-35). Why is it that these young girls don't appeal to the clients for a regular visit?

I agree with Zing. Very pretty girls grow up in an environment where they live on their looks. They get catered to by everyone. They get freebies from police, stores, entertainers, even teachers and parents. They are rarely asked to work for what they are getting and can get away with refusing to do so when they are asked. They develop a prima donna attitude. The name of their game is "I'm special!"

When they become WGs, they bring this attitude with them. They discover that the men who patronize WGs are not so accomodating as regular society because a pretty face and a sexy body *BY THEMSELVES* don't do squat for a man. They don't want to accept their new role of having to actually work so they push that man away expecting the next one to be more like what they have been used to. Of course, what they have been used to never arroves, so they never develop repeat clientele.

Only after they have lost some of their appeal due to age, weight gain, or other things, do they realize they need to drop their attitude.

Opebo

01-12-07, 19:45

I think any honest observer would agree that regular customers are mainly about 'GFE' - bareback sex, or at the very least BBBJ.

Mike Del

01-12-07, 20:47

I happened to see a link to the 'Rookie Opinions' (under 'Special Interests' / 'General Mongering Q&A) which is actually very good - many of the points and many answers are posted which deal with the issues being discussed now.

Sasha: perhaps you might like to select and put up some of those posts, I think. Rubber Nursey is a font of good advice as you know.

My two cents worth (for the wall):

George 90 and Zing are on the money - having dealt with WGs and non-WGs, the pretty ones in my experience always have some sort of issue: too tired or sore, won't do that, don't mess up my make-up / hair / implants etc etc. It's like a bad date, the only thing is that it might be a little shorter event though it sometimes costs the same.

Funnily enough, I've had some of the most pleasant experiences with girls about the same age as me (late 30s) and early 20s. The personality / psychology (if you will) is the key factor. Just like anyone in their job. But I've always thought that the younger WGs always think of their hunky boyfriends when they do the deed...

Turn-offs: One in particular is a motor mouth. I remember trying to chat up a WG in a parlour (unnamed) and "Essex Girl" kept on talking and talking and talking about whatever like the Energizer bunny. I like chatting and getting to know the WGs, what they do outside of work and so on. But I hate jackhammers in my ear.
Obviously another is the 'Jeckyll & Hyde' routine - sweet outside the room and the opposite inside. This is harder to get right and only experience teaches what to look for. But I would like to know what's off limits before making a choice.
Cutting in: Some WGS might well be desperate for business. Nothing pisses me off more than one trying to cut in, especially if I'm talking to someone I've seen before.
Other clients: I have no problem with it (others might) but if you have other bookings, tell us. Don't string us along, it just pisses us off.

Turn-ons: Call me a wimp, I like it when, after the girl closes the door to the room (WG or not), she gives me a hug and starts whispering in my ear. I like that a return the favour. I appreciate it when girls tell me (gently) what they do and don't like. I would like to oblige where I can - doesn't everybody ?
Eye contact: I know its hard to do when you don't like the client but it helps to get in the mood.
Thank you: I know its hard to do when you don't like the client but if I like you, I am likely to come back.

Just my thoughts...

That's not to say that I'm into the ugly of the ugly - but I guess I like regular, non-pretentious girls rather than prima donnas.

CBGBConnisur

01-13-07, 04:14

In some ways its a very liberating feeling to pay a woman for sex, no attachments and no worries afterwards. Still it seems like a bad substitute. We are living an increasingly fast paced world where relationships are difficult to maintain due to the hectic pace of life, and the fact that we are constantly running around. Its awefully easy to find a girlfriend but its hard to keep a meaningful relationship in this day and age.

Sasha Coffee

01-13-07, 19:24

Thanks for your input.

Hopefully you don't go bareback. That would be a little silly, yes to 1 client is yes to many clients.

I suppose you are right there is a certain amount of getting little perks when you are a girls regular client. For me personally thats about trust and respect more than keeping the client. For me its never bareback, it normally involves extra time at no cost (not that I take any notice of time anyway) a more relaxed service (GFE for lack of better words).

A regular client will also learn more about me, what turns me on sexually and more about me personally, my hobbies, likes, interests, lifestyle etc.

Thats just what happens when you get to know someone. Client or not.

Bango Cheito

01-14-07, 02:32

As a client I would let a girl do BBBJ on me, but I wouldn't force the issue and it's not something I actively seek. But since it's not very high-risk for me I wouldn't worry about it either.

If I were a WG I'd want to use condoms for sex AND BJs, because the reverse is VERY FAR from true and a girl can catch a lot from a guy that way. If I REALLY trusted a guy and knew him for a long time I may do it but I'd swallow, never spit or keep it in the mouth for any reason.

I find WGs are usually good enough at sucking dick that you can have a condom on and it still feels just fine. An ordinary woman generally can't perform to that level, but with a WG it's no problem.

Petemcc

01-14-07, 02:48

Sasha Coffee

01-14-07, 05:23

Oh my god,

Can people really as be stupid as this Opebo appears, somehow I think he says it all to inflame.

Well it works.

Mike Del

01-15-07, 09:43

Sasha - I think Einstein said something like "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

And before anyone gets any ideas, it applies to all of us - we've all been stupid before and no doubt we will do some stupid things in future. It's a question of degree, however....

Opebo

01-15-07, 11:45

Prostitutes are the bottom of the human barrel. We rent them to abuse them and then dispose of them.

Hopefully, Billy, you realize that 'the human barrel' is a heirarchy imposed by force, and that one's position in same in no way reflects on one personally. For example, you are also a prostitute, going to work every day and metaphorically sucking your boss's cock. (That is unless you are of the owning class, for which this whole sad charnel house is run - if so I apologize, but some how I doubt it).

There is nothing worse than a babbling sex toy.

Nor anything more pathetic than a worker filled with hubris who holds himself above his brothers (or sisters), because of sexual prudery.

So some who ppen their [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) flaps and drink sperm for an easy living are human and those of us who pay taxes and are not junkies are not?

You are all obviously precisely the same, Billy. Any small distinctions are deceptive - part of the propaganda that keeps gullible white male workers like yourself supporting a system that keeps you on your knees along with the non-whites, females, and others you despise.

Their opinions are as worthless as themselves. Just think what any self respecing Thai, the shop and hotel assistants included, thinks of your companion.

I consider opinions, like all ideas, on their own merits, Billy, and not based on the source. For example, your hatred of prostitutes seems unreasonable. I know why 'self respecting Thais' hate them - because they sell something cheaply (sex) that 'respectable women' are trying to get a high price for (monogamy). Naturally my favorite people, and most particularly my favorite women, are prostitutes. Remember, Billy, just because you are being charged more for something doesn't mean it is 'better'.

To me, the idea of having a prostitute as a friend is more bizzarre than anything I will pay them to do.

You do have a point here, Billy - the very act of paid employment brings to bear all the brutality of the social heirarchy. In the same way you can never be friends with your owner.

But do you really think they admire a sucker who treats and pay them better than the ordinary had working women of Pattaya, who work 7 days a week in stores etc. They are the ones deserve the bulk of your money. The others are only good for jerking off on.

You make a foolish distinction here Billy, based on nothing but your own prudery. These women are workers, just like you, and just like their sisters in the shops, etc. You are all on your knees, and believing you are better than another one because of a particular skill you may have, or because of some curious detail of their work, merely plays into the hands of those who own you all.

Sasha Coffee

01-16-07, 08:58

I have read many of your posts and I don't agree with most of them.

But congratulations of your precise and correct assumptions of Billy's post.

Lazzaro

01-19-07, 13:08

Oh my god,
Can people really as be stupid as this Opebo appears, somehow I think he says it all to inflame.
Well it works.
Dearest Sasha

if don't know how stupid people could be, please see these (Malaysia/Photo gallery thread):
starting tread (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=550814&postcount=1748) (pls see the photos);
my answer (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=551759&postcount=1763);
his 1st reply (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=551910&postcount=1766)
his final reply (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=552682&postcount=1774)

...and (maybe) you've an idea how much ignorance is still of this world (ignorance or eyes closed?)

Cheer

Opebo

01-19-07, 13:29

Lazzaro, ignorance has nothing to do with a difference of taste.

Billy Ibrox

01-19-07, 14:14

o****,

you are talking in circles whether you know it or not. most women, and men, do not become prostitutes because they know, intuitively or by observing, that it is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. prostitutes are bottom of the shit heap, partoicularly in thailand and the prostitutes know that as well. i pay them to suck my cock and eat my arse, and then to leave. there is no love or hate in it, just as there is no love or hate for any other spittoon or a urinal.

Randy Man

01-19-07, 20:19

Why don't the younger women get regulars? Well some do - I see women of all ages (18 up to 40s), and have been a "regular" with many across that range. I suspect that the reason the younger ones get less regulars is that they are more interested in themselves and their very narrow range of interests, and sexually they just aren't as experienced. Older women are more adept at feigning interest in the client, are more focused on pleasing him rather than playing at being a starfish, and can hide their disdain better. I believe many men see the women for far more than sex, especially those men who become "regulars". Personally I like to develop a rapport with the women which could be likened to friendship, which a few cases has developed into real friendship - identifiable when you just meet up for a coffee or to socialise without sex or money being involved, or have sex without money being involved.

Opebo

01-20-07, 10:40

You are talking in circles whether you know it or not. Most women, and men, do not become prostitutes because they know, intuitively or by observing, that it is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. No, Billy, people do or do not become prostitutes (or any other kind of worker, I. E. Powerless person) by processes beyond their control. The illusion of individual volition is a type of hubris in workers such as yourself that is very useful for your owners.

Prostitutes are bottom of the shit heap, partoicularly in Thailand and the prostitutes know that as well. I pay them to suck my cock and eat my arse, and then to leave. There is no love or hate in it, just as there is no love or hate for any other spittoon or a urinal. This segment of your posting reveals only your negative and prudish attitude towards your own sexuality. You see sex acts as comparable to urination or expectoration. Some of us see them quite differently. Certainly I consider sex one of the most pleasurable and important aspects of life, not unlike a fine meal. You seem to see sex an unpleasant inconvenience like elimination. One wonders if you eat at McDonalds.

That said, according to you, you do not actually ejaculate inside your service providers, and thus the spittoon and urinal analogies are technically inaccurate. I do ejaculate inside, but find those analogies poor as coming inside a woman is profoundly satisfying.

All prostitutes are bottom feeders. The people you should feel sorry for are those who entertain delusions about these creatures.

They should not be regarded as ordinary women. Never trust them for a single minute. Billy, are you telling us that you trust 'ordinary women'? That certainly seems more deluded than our empathy for the prostitute. The only difference between the prostitute and the ordinary woman is the price, and I can assure you I appreciate the one who offers the better deal.

Billy Ibrox

01-20-07, 15:31

o****: of course i come in hookers. but i wear a condom as i can do without their diseases. they are simply something to jerk off into, a cheap form of transitory entertainment. i cum, they go, very simple. i care nothing about them, except that they open their [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) flaps, their arse or their mouth, wherever i choose to put my dick. if we cold clone hookers, there might be a good market there but for now, we use human zombies to deposit our sperm with no emotional complications. we can compare hookers to many things like urinals, spittoons, waste/sperm disposal units. though slightly inaccurate (just as a horse is not quite a zebra and a hooker is not just a spittoon), comparing them so lets us keep them in perspective. the ones to be pitied and maybe even feared (by the cock suckers) are the nice guys who worship tjem today and kill them tomorrow. i beleive prostitutes sell sex and after we buy, it is time to do something better like play gold, work out in the gym, dive, go drinking, stuff normal people not hookers do.

i actually thing the beach road pattaya lowland clearances are good as it means there will be bargains and desperate women to be had. it’s one way to save on toilet paper anyway.

you speak about prudery and morality but you presume to lecture me. you appear to be the prude, not me and your alleged barebacking is just you in denial of your own prudish upbringing.

instead of calling you immature, i would just draw your attention to your last paragraph. (read my latest on the aw section) we do not trust all ordinary women but we try to find the one, special one, our holy grail. bottom feeders are not it.

Opebo

01-20-07, 20:58

I actually thing the Beach Road Pattaya lowland clearances are good as it means there will be bargains and desperate women to be had.No, the clearance has eliminated the bargains, Billy. Before one could go get laid well for 300 baht at any time of the day or night. Now, no.

We do not trust all ordinary women but we try to find the one, special one, our Holy Grail. Bottom feeders are not it.They are most definitely it, collectively, Billy. Enjoying prostitutes eliminates the need for that ridiculous delusion (Madonna complex) you seek. All women are prostitutes, and there is nothing 'wrong' with that. And yes, they all have '[CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) flaps', Billy.

Dodger Bulldog

01-20-07, 22:30

At least here is one good thing the U.S. did for Iraq! An article from msnbc.com: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16717237/

Temporary 'enjoyment marriages' back in Iraq
Banned under Saddam Hussein, some say they are cover for prostitution

By Nancy Trejos
Washington Post Staff Writer

Updated: 1:03 a.m. ET Jan 20, 2007

BAGHDAD — Fatima Ali was a 24-year-old divorcee with no high school diploma and no job. Shawket al-Rubae was a 34-year-old Shiite sheik with a pregnant wife who, he said, could not have sex with him.

Ali wanted someone to take care of her. Rubae wanted a companion.

They met one afternoon in May at the house he shares with his wife, in the room where he accepts visitors seeking his religious counsel. He had a proposal. Would Ali be his temporary wife? He would pay her 5,000 Iraqi dinars upfront — about $4 — in addition to her monthly expenses. About twice a week over the next eight months, he would summon her to a house he would rent.

The negotiations took an hour and ended with an unwritten agreement, the couple recalled. Thus began their "mutaa," or enjoyment marriage, a temporary union believed by Shiite Muslims to be sanctioned by Islamic law.

The Shiite practice began 1,400 years ago, in what is now Iraq and other parts of the region, as a way to provide for war widows. Banned by President Saddam Hussein's Sunni-led government, it has regained popularity since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq brought the majority Shiites to power, said clerics, women's rights activists and mutaa spouses.

"During Saddam's time, there was no religious freedom," said Faris al-Shareef, a sheik who lives in the mainly Shiite city of Hilla.

Opponents of mutaa, most of them Sunni Arabs, say it is less about religious freedom and more about economic exploitation. Thousands of men are dying in the sectarian violence that has followed the invasion, leaving behind widows who must fend for themselves. Many young men are out of work and prefer temporary over permanent wives who require long-term financial commitments. In a mutaa arrangement, the woman is entitled to payment only for the duration of the marriage.

'A cover for prostitution'
"It's a cover for prostitution," said Um Akram, a women's rights activist in Baghdad. "Some women, because they don't want to be prostitutes, they think that this is legal because it's got some kind of religious cover. But it is wrong, and they're still prostitutes from the society's point of view." Um Akram, like the mutaa spouses interviewed, asked that only parts of her name be published.

Many intellectuals consider ancient traditions such as these an obstacle to Iraq's effort to become a more modern, democratic society. In recent years, extremist religious groups have gained more power in Iraq.

"These steps are taking the whole country backwards and are definitely hurdles to the advancement of the country," said Hamdia Ahmed, a former member of parliament and a women's rights activist in Baghdad. "The only solution is to separate Islam from politics."

Shiite clerics and others who practice mutaa say such marriages are keeping young women from having unwed sex and widowed or divorced women from resorting to prostitution to make money.

They say a mutaa marriage is not much different from a traditional marriage in which the husband pays the wife's family a dowry and provides for her financially.

"It was designed as a humanitarian help for women," said Mahdi al-Shog, a Shiite cleric.

According to Shiite religious law, a mutaa relationship can last for a few minutes or several years. A man can have an unlimited number of mutaa wives and a permanent wife at the same time. A woman can have only one husband at a time, permanent or temporary. No written contract or official ceremony is required in a mutaa. When the time limit ends, the man and woman go their separate ways with none of the messiness of a regular divorce.

Temporary arrangements
Although the temporary arrangements are becoming more common, they are still controversial, and people usually conduct them secretly.

Ali had a normal marriage once. It lasted only three months because the couple did not get along. Her chances for another permanent marriage, she said, were slim. Men often prefer virgins over widows and divorced women, she said.

She welcomed Rubae's proposal because he was a well-known sheik in her neighborhood. Her family was fond of him. "He was a good guy, and he was a religious man," she said.

Rubae had been in 15 mutaa marriages before. A year ago he entered into a permanent marriage with a woman who had been his mutaa wife for a day. When she became pregnant eight months ago, she suggested he take a temporary wife but asked him not to tell her if he did. She does not know about his involvement with Ali.

"As a pregnant woman, she cannot give me my needs," Rubae said. "She treats me real good and she wants me to be happy."

He chose Ali partly because her blond hair, light brown eyes and petite figure had always attracted him. "When she puts makeup on, it destroys her beauty," he said.

He also liked that she was religiously devout, and he said he wanted to keep her from a relationship outside of marriage.

Ali didn't think of him in a romantic way at first. "After we got married, I started loving him," she said.

Money tight
The money he gave her helped. Her father owns a bakery but money has always been tight, so much so that she had to end her education after elementary school. But money wasn't her only reason for entering the enjoyment marriage. "I have needs just like any other woman," she said.

Both Shiite and Sunni Muslims allow men to have more than one permanent wife, but they disagree over mutaa.

Most Shiites believe that the prophet Muhammad encouraged the practice as a way to give widows an income. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, Iraq's most revered Shiite cleric, has sanctioned it and offers advice on his Web site.

Um Ahmed, a 28-year-old woman from Najaf, lost her husband in 2005 when he was caught in the crossfire of a fight between two Shiite militias.

Soon after his death, she had her first mutaa relationship, with a man who was in a permanent marriage. He paid her 50,000 Iraqi dinars upfront -- or $38 -- and gave her money whenever she needed it during their six-month relationship.

She said she needed it often. She is a tailor and the only one in her family of 10 who works.

"When a human being needs money, the need will make a person do anything," she said. "It's better than doing the wrong things. This is religiously accepted."

Many Sunnis believe that the practice is outdated and ripe for abuse. They also see it as more evidence of Iranian influence on Iraqi life. Mutaa is widespread in Iran's Shiite theocratic state.

'Big insult to women'
"It is a big insult to women," said Ibtsam Z. Alsha, a Sunni lawyer and the head of the organization Women for the Common Good of Women.

Women's rights activists also bemoan what they say is an increase in mutaa on college campuses. Some female students do it for money. Others do it for love when their parents forbid them to marry a man from another sect.

Amani, a 22-year-old Baghdad University engineering student, said she is a Sunni but agreed to enter into a mutaa relationship with her Shiite boyfriend because her parents disapproved of him. "I hated my family because they did not allow this marriage," she said. "I did this to spite my family."

Still, she has not told them about the relationship. "If they find out, it will be my end," she said.

A woman cannot terminate a temporary marriage before it expires unless the man agrees, said four sheiks interviewed for this article.

Once the marriage is over, she has to wait at least two menstrual cycles before she can have another relationship so that paternity can be easily determined if she becomes pregnant, they said.

Most mutaa contracts stipulate that no children be produced. If a woman were to become pregnant anyway, Islamic law would require the man to support the child, the sheiks said. But the clerics disagreed over how much power they have to impose that rule.

Rubae said the man who refuses his child would be whipped or even killed. "We as the sheiks should be sure this thing will stay legitimate," he said.

Rules enforcement
Shareef, the sheik from Hilla, said some men take advantage of their rights under religious law but refuse to accept their responsibility when a child is born. In some of those cases, he said, a sharia court, using Islamic law, is not as effective as a secular court in enforcing the rules.

"I am supporting the idea of the government regulating mutaa marriages, just like the permanent marriages, so these man cannot run away," he said. "Otherwise the women are losing their rights."

Um Akram, the women's rights activist in Baghdad, said more women are asking her organization for help in getting national identification cards for children born of mutaa relationships. Parents must present a marriage certificate to obtain the identification cards, which are required by schools and employers.

Um Akram said some single women have given up their children for adoption to married couples who can use their marriage certificates to register them.

"The men just hit and run, and they don't want to have a family," she said. "The children are paying the price."

Ali and Rubae agreed not to have children. They simply wanted to enjoy each other.

On the days he could see her, he gave her flowers, perfume, clothing and a watch. They had meals together. Sometimes he could spend the whole day with her. Other times, just five or six hours.

Ali said she cried when the marriage ended early last week. "It's just like a permanent marriage," she said. "When he leaves, I become sad."

Her sorrow did not last long. Rubae said Jan. 12 that he had decided to marry her again. This time, he said, he would marry her for a year, enough time for his wife to fully recover from childbirth.

George90

01-20-07, 23:16

Excellent post, Opebo.

George90

01-20-07, 23:28

o****: of course i come in hookers. but i wear a condom as i can do without their diseases. they are simply something to jerk off into, a cheap form of transitory entertainment. i cum, they go, very simple. i care nothing about them, except that they open their [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) flaps, their arse or their mouth, wherever i choose to put my dick. if we cold clone hookers, there might be a good market there but for now, we use human zombies to deposit our sperm with no emotional complications. we can compare hookers to many things like urinals, spittoons, waste/sperm disposal units. though slightly inaccurate (just as a horse is not quite a zebra and a hooker is not just a spittoon), comparing them so lets us keep them in perspective. the ones to be pitied and maybe even feared (by the cock suckers) are the nice guys who worship tjem today and kill them tomorrow. i beleive prostitutes sell sex and after we buy, it is time to do something better like play gold, work out in the gym, dive, go drinking, stuff normal people not hookers do.billy,

your post is disgusting. many of us spend time and energy trying to make our p4p experiences pleasurable, as in gfes. you seem to view these women as sub-human, certainly not "normal people". while i have had some wgs whom i regretted using, the vast majority were very nice people. in fact, 2 or 3 had more class in the clits than you do in your entire body.

i fear for the wgs you go with due to the huge amount of hostility you have for them. what is most tragic is that, while you vilify wgs, you fail to realize that we, their clients, are no better than they are! .

if you feel that you are better than they, then you need to stop mongering!

Petemcc

01-21-07, 00:24

i never thought i would be standing up for o**** in any shape or form, but you billy are worse than o**** could ever be, or at least that is what your posts portray. whatever your background, you are either a scumbag council estate twat, or just a twat, both of which have made good enough to travel,overseas. your obvious dislike of women makes you out as a person of interest, and i hope that the powers that monitor this site pick you up sooner rather than later.
personally, i doubt if you have ever had sex with a woman, let alone p4p because anyone with any coginative reasoning ability would have refused you service, but then again there are ladies out there who enjoy abuse.
basically,billy, you're a twat.

Billy Ibrox

01-21-07, 01:14

Gents,

Why the hostility? Is it because ye know I am right. I always treat the meat providers well and I am always politie to them. They provide a service and I use it. Other people want to get close to them, to have GFEs. They are the dangeerous ones, just like they were in Ipswich. The reason George and Pete are so angry is because they want to rescue these fallen women and are incapbable of foring a relationship with a real woman. Pete has class issues to deal with as well. By all means, fulfill your fantasy in Thailand but realise it is a fantasy. Not that it matters but hundreds of these women have hat my cum on and in them. They are just a short term cum release machine.

Billy, I must disagree with you. Curtailed opportunities on Beach Road mean the women are even more desperate. That means lower prices and the performing monkeys will do more for their peanuts. So when I offer a good or at least reasonable price, the sperm catchers will do more for it.

There are four of us going there so a gang bang will definitely be on. That is only for beginners. We work through our fantasies, pay them pat them on the arse and send them away with a nice drink of juice to keep them smiling and in their place. What would you suggest? A wedding ring?

Sasha Coffee

01-21-07, 03:38

Like most people here I have strong views on Opebos mongering style.

But in this instance I think more power to Opebo, If I was standing in a brothel looking at clients I'm sure gut instinct would pick Opebo every time.

Billy is time bomb waiting to blow, watch the papers people of Billy's town this one is going to be running round taking lives.

George 90's post that clients are no better than the girls, thats kind of right. Without the client the WG doesn't exist, but then what came first the chicken or the egg, what is marriage except church condoned prostitution.

Billy if you hate hookers that much don't pay for them, marry one instead and make it easier for yourself.

Bango Cheito

01-21-07, 05:39

Stop feeding the troll guys.

Hornyscot

01-26-07, 00:47

I hope for your soul's sake you are jesting.

If not then I have only pity for your sad empty souless life as if it is true then you have no soul. Indeed you are an empty person with no warmth and nothing in you to like. A user of women and a dillusionist that thinks themselves better than others. Sad thing is that you came into this world through a vagina born from a woman and you seem to run them down.

Prostitutes are there and they wouldnt be if there was no use for them. Ill admit that I use them and that I enjoy them but I enjoy the interaction just as much as the act of sex that happens. Wither I fuck thier ass mouth or pussy and cum over their face in their mouth or what ever I still enjoy the fact that Im doing this with another human being and not just knocking one out over a fantasy photo.

Yes I hope thay you are a troll indeed and trying to get a rise out of the readers.

Bango Cheito

01-26-07, 05:54

Let's get back to something less stupid and more interesting:

Girls, what is the kinkiest thing you have ever done with a client, and where in general do you think the line should be drawn? Do you think it is OK to kiss a client full-on on the mouth, for example? Obviously you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Billy Ibrox

01-26-07, 07:32

Sashass Coffee: Why should anyone care what your opinions are? Prostitutes are paid to perform. Just like monkeys. Performing monkeys, not to be taken seriously, to be used and dismissed, fucked and forgotten. We do not pay for their views but for their capacity to allow us cum and get on with more interesting and important things like work, play or just enjoying the company of ordinary, decent people.

Bango: If you want to put your tongue in a prostitute’s mouth, arse, gee, ear or nose, you just have to pay an agreed price. They sell their meat, just like a butcher sells his meat. You pay, you get a cut. Sometimes, like the butcher, they throw a dog a bone. You must live a very sheltered life. Talking to a prostitute about the morality of her selling her meat is just like talking to a butcher about the morality of what he does. It is a waste of time.

HornyJock writes (spelling corrected) “Wither I fuck their ass mouth or pussy and cum over their face in their mouth or whatever, I still enjoy the fact that I’m doing this with another human being and not just knocking one out over a fantasy photo.” I can’t say I fully understand what you are getting at. Is it that you cum/[CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) on their face to show them respect? Or that you prefer to fuck human prostitutes rather than non human prostitutes and/or to jerk off? Either way, I would advise you to develop some hobbies. Buy a dog, for example, not to fuck (we have hookers for that). But dogs are great ways of meeting real women. I have two golden retrievers and they have got me into the panties of more respectable women than you could imagine. You will get more enjoyment out of a pet than a fuck machine will ever bring you. Once you treat dogs right, they are ok. But fuck machines? Not worth the hassle. Fuck them and forget them. And be sure to scrub well afterwards

Sasha Coffee

01-26-07, 21:06

I'm interested, what other professions do you think just get paid to perform.

NicFrenchy

01-27-07, 04:03

Billy Ibrox,

I gotta tell you man, you really are a Class Act!

I guess you skipped school the day they were teaching "Respect" right?

Mike Del

01-27-07, 04:21

I'm NOT supporting the scotsman - I just would like to have a go at answering the question. For fun.

Performing monkeys include = Lawyers, accountants, surgeons, actuaries, babysitters, circus performers, footballers and other sportspersons (I'm watching the tennis as I type), consultants, bankers, hinest financial advisors (not many of those), chefs, waiters, housekeepers....need I go on ?

Perfoming monkeys who do not deliver however include politicians and used car and other snake oil salesmen and others of that ilk.

Jackson, sir: Time for a new forum called "Take It Outside". Like the warnings you give to the non-photo gallery posters, all such flames get booted to TIO.

Now, can we please talk about Mozart the Iguana and the penis-chopping that he is about to receive for a few posts just to clear the air !

Billy Ibrox

01-27-07, 06:44

Sashass,

Prostitution is not a profession. The only qualifications are to have a body and to be willing to be a urinal.

Mike: All those professions and careers you name take some effort. It is not just a question of dropping your knickers for the price of a fix.

Who is Mozart the iguana?

Hemi Dog

01-27-07, 08:32

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was deleted because the content of the report was largely argumentative. Please read the Forum FAQ and the Forum's Posting Guidelines for more information. Thank You!

Mike Del

01-27-07, 10:21

Billy: Kerry Packer used to say "There's a little bit of the ***** in each of us, gentlemen. Name your price". Yes, I agree - the good ones make the effort. But the s**t ones simply think it is a matter of dropping their pants and saying who wants a piece of this. They are less sophisticated than many of the prostitutes I have come across and quite a few of the WGs and former WGs are very sharp businesspeople.

Mozart is a real igauna at the Antwerp Aquatopia. He has had the misfortune to have had an erection that has lasted a week (wouldn't we all love that). Howevere, because of the risk of infection, say the vets, he will need to have his erect penis removed. That's the bad news. The good news is that iguanas have two penises. The really funny thing is the comment made by the vet who said that he believed Mozart won't be bothered as he doesn't know what amputation is. I'm not so sure about that and I don't think his vet would say the same thing it he was in Mozart's position.

Billy Ibrox

01-28-07, 09:42

George90

01-28-07, 19:07

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=556075&postcount=1162

Here is a good report by Spam Hog, the board's resident expert on the Philippines and its bands of light fingered hookers. Remember all of those women you feel sympathy for have criminal boyfriends buggering them and ost likely buggering you too if given a chance. Fuck them and forget them. Get close and pay the price for your stupidity.

Why do you monger? Why do you use prostitutes? Do you really get sexual enjoyment from having sex with prostitutes?

Your attitude towards them suggests that you would feel nothing but disgust from getting so physically close to such a 'criminal performing monkey'. I know that I would not get any sexual pleasure from sex with someone I felt such contempt for. I might get some sadistic pleasure from degrading a prostitute, though, if I felt as you claim to.

I believe there is a fetish for that sort of thing, sado-masochism. There is even a thread dedicated to that fetish. Your posts might be more appropriate there.

China Lily

01-29-07, 14:07

Billy Ibrox. You dont respect women, not just working girls. You think all people, husbands, wives and lovers are performing monkeys too. People will be performing monkeys for you in your life because they see what you deserve.

If you don't respect women, they won't respect you. Same for working girls. There are all kinds of working girls. Some have no education some are high class. Some come from the countryside, some have no choice, some are well educated and glamourous escorts. All sell customers what they want to pay for. Most girls wouldn't care what you think as long as they get your money.

Some customers want cheaper girls, others want higher class girls. Some want it quick, others want top service. If you dont think it is a profession that is your problem. Wealthy guys pay well for professionals.

Men who treat women with respect get respect back. You sound like you get no respect from people. Girls are people with feelings and pride too.

Customers who treat working girls with respect get better service. I don't think you ever get good service whatever you do, because you have no respect for other people.

Sasha Coffee

01-29-07, 19:05

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=556075&postcount=1162

In Lasos, after the Pathet Lao came to power, they rounded up all the thieves and hookers and executed them. Now I don't believe in executrions but no smoke without fire. Never trust a hooker or any other criminal.

Billy now you are really showing your lack of education and backward thinking. They executed the same people you use for your sexual favours.

OH and I forgot, not all hookers have criminal boyfriends or are criminals. In fact just to really scare you some of them actually have degrees and even multiple degrees.

Sporadic

01-29-07, 21:00

Sasha,

Be kind to Billy boy, he said "executrions" instead of "execution."

Who knows? He could be talking about extrusion. ;)

Try the "ingnore" feature, it beats feeding a troll.

China Lily

01-30-07, 04:06

Many men say bad things about us in the begining but get fasinated and keep coming back for more. Why do hipocrits want what we sell but say bad things? It is their own probelm inside their heads. They look down on you and are nervous or are rude, but why do they keep coming back?

Billy Ibrox is afraid girls make him want sex with them and he has to pay for it. He wants it for free but cant get what he wants for free. Girls have power he cant control. He doesn't have confident to admit he needs working girls. He hates it because he has to pay for it.

Working girls do what he wants only because he will pay for it. If he thinks other girls are different, he shouls ask what they want. Girls choose men. Most girls choose to be working girls for money.

Customers confident inside respect girls. Billy Ibrox is not confident inside. He is ignorant about women, sex and people. It is him who is afraid of power of girls.

Sasha Coffee

01-30-07, 18:55

alright Sporadiac I will be kind, I will use the ignore. Because you are right it is a pointless argument and I am feeding the troll. Have to remember to stay off my soap box.

China Lilly you are so right. Couldn't of put it better.

China Lily

02-01-07, 04:14

kinky can be funny because what is exciting for one guy is not for another. a customer asks for kinky but only asks to wear schoolgirl clothes. i dont think it is kinky, but he does. customers wants a girl to wear shiny skirt or play with a rope and wip. they get excitement. i dont think it is kinky but the customer does. customers wants to tie him up and wear things he has brought it makes him happy. a customer wears a nightdress. another doesnt want sex but wants to be stroked very slow. a russian customer likes two girls to [CodeWord134] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134) on him in his bath and then watch the girls licking each others pussy. i dont think it is kinky - girls dont like it but will do it. an american customer calls it kinky for girls to wear his wifes shoes and dresses.

i only kiss a few long time customers on the mouth and never do the backside. when 2 or 3 girls go together i will kiss my girlfriends. i dont like it when new customers want wet kiss on the mouth but it is easy kiss dry kiss instead.

Bango Cheito

02-01-07, 07:41

hahahahh wow what a great post on respect china lily! it makes me want to give you a big kiss (dry only)!!!!!

i could never have put it that way myself. your post also makes me want to take chinese lessons!!! :p

anal is very difficult to do i know. i wonder how girls who offer it regularly cope with it. they must spend many hours practising, at least that's what i have been told.

if you don't think two girls peeing on a guy and then licking each others' pussies is kinky, just what is??

NicFrenchy

02-01-07, 08:18

another doesnt want sex but wants to be stroked very slow.why go see a wg for that? why change the habit of a lifetime ? lol

a russian customer likes two girls to [CodeWord134] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord134) on him in his bath and then watch the girls licking each others pussy. i dont think it is kinky me neither, i think this is gross

we all have our little fantasies... we purchase an illusion, not a girlfriend.

enjoy the time you spend with the girl!! you paying for it gives you the right to basic things. chemistry has no price, you can't force a girl to like you, but if you treat her as you would treat a friend, you can only benefit.

i always had great experiences with wgs, and the few bad times.

i had were never from my being rude or disrespectful, maybe she had an "off day", we all have.

i think that prostitution is one of the most important profession, it helps people satisfy their most gruesome desire, sex.

i could not imagine a world without "escorts", women are worried enough as it is, as long as most men can quench their thirst for lust(even for a fee), the amount of "[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)" will remain on the low side.

most important thing : have fun!

Lazzaro

02-01-07, 10:19

Anal is very difficult to do I know. I wonder how girls who offer it regularly cope with it. They must spend many hours practising,
Bango Cheito,

now I'm with a girl who love anal.
She had more than one orgasm, doing it (it's unbelievable, she told me, how much pleasure she gets if I stimulate her clit in the meanwhile).
Obviously, it's impossible penetrate anal if it is completely dry or it's impossible do it completely, in few minutes the first times.
It take many patience for both the partners, and you get it step by step.
But this is not the forum to talk about it.
See the inherent forum for this

Sasha Coffee, China Lily

As I wrote some report ago, it's like any other trader activity:
Less you pay, less you get.
I wrote about a restaurant: paying few cent, you can't eat oysters but never you could eat a grilled steak or simply a "tender meat".
The grilled steak you'll eat will seems a sole of shoe.....
Usually (with the only exception fot the OTR WG) I try to have a little chit chat, informing on their life, on their willings and so on, and, for me most important, I try to "begin the games", cuddling each other a little bit: I hate just go there, "pull out" from panties, insert, shake, "spray" (or if you prefer: sprinkle) and than "ciao ciao bambina" (bye bye baby).
I really hate "bam wham thank you mom".
Obviously, I think cuddles are well accepted fron 90% of the world population, so I try to relax the lady firstly, in that way I gave her (if a little bit) a minimum of pleasure and relax, I'm quite sure to have back a better service, or at least better that the average of the customer who go with her.
I wrote "with the only exception fot the OTR WG" beacuse here in Italy the OTR WG are on the "strong earnings of money": they know that customer use them only for a quickie, but this is what they really wnat: off one customer, c'mon the next. In a night (from 11pm to 3 am) they could "do" even 20 customer

I agree 100% on what you both wrote recently.
And I admire you for the courage and for the firmness you keep all these testosteronics men at their place, but never I read something unpolite from you.
I learn a lot from you and about the pride you have.

A great kiss

Lazzaro

China Lily

02-04-07, 03:47

I thought of something. A customer so afraid he wears 2 throw away underwear and 2 condoms.

Actually every customer comes to working girl because they want things they dont get from wife girlfriend or maybe he is not attractive and it is not easy to find a girl. The customer who wants slow stroking is because he cant find a girl. His job has pressure and he has no friends around. He wants to put his face on my breasts, close eyes and me stroke him, but no sex. He is happy and pays for it.

Respect for people who are different is simple. Some customers respect you, some dont respect you but do not upset you, some dont respect you and treat girls very bad. Girls hate customers who who force them to drink, push them around force them to do things. Sick men like to feel power because they dont have it in their life, so they bully girls. I think Ibrox is like that.

If we can make a customer relax he will be nicer. If he respect me and is nice he will get much better time. When customer take you home and gives you a drink or something to eat, treats you like a girlfriend, he will get a much better time. With qucik time men all I want is to finish quick, get money and go. If the customer is nice and pays more we will stay the night and have breakfast. It is still for money but when I go home it feels good because people are nice to each other.

We see customers who want different things. You like spicy soup, I like salty soup. Working girls sell customer things they dont get from other women. Dont judge good or bad, normal or not normal. As long as nobody gets hurt everything is OK.

China Lily

02-04-07, 04:01

Lazzaro

02-08-07, 09:19

It is 2 way.
If a girl is nervous and afraid, she wont give good service. Some men will not pay till after sex, then they pay less or even not pay. So if you make her relax and feel safe she will be better. I know most men in this site dont agree and say pay after, I think most girls give better service if you pay first and offer tip after. She will not be nervous. Girls know stories of men who have sex then steal the girls money, watch and phone. The girl is afraid to call police so cant do anything. If you make her feel safe she will be better for you.
I always pay in advance.
This is for several reason: firstly to make her safe on the "money side"; but also to make her aware I'm not the one who want steal her anything.

It is same for customer. If a customer is nervous or afraid he wont relax and will be afraid the girl will steal something or will take money and go quickly.
Some customers who take you to their hotel room hide their watches and wallets because they know some bad girls do steal their things. If they are like that, it is important to make a customer feel safe.
This is why, when I'm picking up a girl (or, after rung, when I'm entered in her flat) I ask her if I could massage her a little.
It is a sort of cuddle, make her a little bit relaxed, make me relaxed (I love massage a girl, especially on her back, for not less than 15/20 minutes) and usually establish a good connection among me and she.

If people feel safe they are happier and do better work, customers are happier too. 2 way respect seems so simple
This should be a worldwide law, not only in the sexual relationships.

In the end, dearest China Lily, I agree 100% with you!

Ciao

Rubber Nursey

02-10-07, 05:39

Hi guys and gals. Been offline for a while - hope you all had a fabulous Christmas and New Year. All the best to you and yours for '07. :) While I'm playing catch-up...thanks to Mike for the compliment a few pages back, hats off to Opebo (who shits me to tears with his bare-back carry-on, but has really impressed me with his recent posts), a big smile to the girls who have really been holding their own amidst this latest 'down with the wh*res' offensive and, being the uncultured skank that I am, a middle finger salute to young Billy.

Anyway, a question from a few pages back...

I am hovering between choosing an ex wg as a life partner or looking for a “regular” girl as a partner.

I've been worried about your apparent obsession with working girls for quite a while now, Alex. In my honest opinion, I think you've put hookers on some kind of a pedestal and ...well, I think you're setting yourself up for a fall. You say that working girls are more honest and open, more understanding of men's 'urges', better in bed, more likely to indulge your sexual fantasies, etc...but that's not necessarily the case. You are in love with a stereotype. It's no different to me saying I'm gonna specifically seek out a black man because they are all well hung and sing like Barry White. :)

I think you should just be looking for a girl who understands you and makes you HAPPY. Why decrease the size of the pool by discounting 'regular' girls? You have just as much chance of finding the type of girl you're looking for outside the sex industry, as you do within it. If you're really are in love with that particular girl you've talked about, it will be because she's pretty/funny/honest/smart/understands you/turns you on/whatever...not because she is/was a hooker. I say just go for it, baby.

Rubber Nursey, you’ve talked about your partner; saying you would like group sex but he’s happy with ordinary “normal sex” and doesn’t want to experiment. Do you fantasize for the kind of sex you had with other guys? Do you feel unfulfilled sexually with a guy who likes less “active” sex? Would this be a potential problem some day?
I can assure you there is nothing ordinary or normal about our sex life - and if it was any more 'active', I'd be in traction!!!

Let me put it this way, babe. I'm sure you've dined out hundreds of times, in many different establishments, but I bet you have at least one favourite place that you keep going back to. Maybe their steak isn't quite as good as the cafe down the road, but the overall combination of good food, great service and a fun atmosphere makes you prefer that place over all the others. ;)

And yes, a hooker who becomes your girlfriend may have been with thousands of different men...but she chooses to be with you. That should be considered a compliment, rather than a threat.

Alex Rock

02-10-07, 16:39

What can I say ? Well said, Thanks

Rubber Nursey

02-13-07, 00:07

Speaking of immorality...

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/08/1/gr080112.html

Rubber Nursey

02-13-07, 07:43

Legal or not, sex trade here to stay
Nov. 13, 2006. 08:01 AM
ROSIE DIMANNO
Toronto Star

Sex is a primal urge. Yet libido rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Most humans have sex, sometimes with love, just as often without. In marriage, outside of marriage, as a side dish to marriage. It's not ours to judge.

But if you pay for it — or charge for it — a kind of atavistic wrath, from a disapproving society, will fall on your head.

Prostitutes are just about the last breed of people who can be publicly excoriated for what they are, in a language of loathing that would be intolerable if applied to anyone else. It's the argot of shaming. And the attitudes that lie beneath — their lesser status as human beings, because they trade in flesh — is precisely what permits the widespread abuse of women and men who retail their bodies, such that even their murders can pass without vigorous investigation.

In the antiquated semantics of policing and criminal code legislation, sex is still a vice. Merchandising it is a crime, soliciting it is a crime, purchasing it is a crime, in all but the most narrowly defined circumstances. But using sex to sell product —that's advertising. Using sex to titillate — that's entertainment. Using sex to snare a partner — that's courtship.

It was interesting to read an investigative report on the front page of Saturday's Star, detailing what was described as "brothels-in-the-sky'' — prostitutes working out of residential high-rise buildings in Toronto, a phenomenon that is clearly bugging the snot out of many fellow tenants who, presumably, get their own sex by more conventional means. Bully for them. Others don't have sex so close to hand. They have to go looking for it. Fortunately, there are plenty of sex-trade workers willing to provide the service. That doesn't make either prostitute or customer a monster.

The prostitutes and their clients were portrayed with ripe descriptors, variously derided for their provocative clothing, their cheap cologne, their contaminating presence. A property manager likened them to "cockroaches.'' One morally upright resident said she felt like bathing her kids in Lysol after elevator encounters with the *****s. Is this because of exposure to their moral depravity? Or the toxic aura of the stigmatized sex they make?

Insofar as any of this is a genuine quality-of-life urban issue — and I do understand the discomfort zone created by overt sexual entrepreneurship, although I don't share the repugnance — it was created by a circle-jerk dance of the deviant: The forces of good shutting down pseudo "holistic centres'' operating as de facto bordellos. Two decades ago, it was massage parlours. Only to arise anew, this time burrowing more deeply into residential neighbourhoods. Whence, it should be noted, come their clientele. Those are your husbands and sons and brothers, looking to get laid.

And what of it? Maybe sex is just an uncomplicated grunt with a stranger for them. Maybe they strike out in bars. Maybe they come from cultures where dating isn't permitted, much less sexual intimacy. Maybe they're not getting any at home.
There's no point trying to figure out motive. The groin wants what it wants.

And there's even less point trying to smother biological imperatives. It's bred in the bone, if steeped in hypocrisy. Righteous preachers who bible-thump about sin get caught with their pants down. Cops who arrest johns coerce hookers into giving them freebies. Politicians who promote "family values'' fall victim to honey-traps.

Even in our sophisticated, judgment-neutral society, there is a resistant puritan streak that thinks it can and should control lust. Apart from creating a sexual bureaucracy— the vice squads that arrest them, the Crown attorneys who prosecute them, the lawyers who defend them — nothing has changed. The sex is still there. It will always be.

Over the years, I have covered countless commissions and task forces and public consultations on prostitution. Inevitably, somebody will propose creating red-light districts — sex ghettos — where prostitutes can operate legally, under a stern regulatory eye, subject to health inspection, taxation, and otherwise treated with odious paternalism.

The implication is that prostitutes require looking after, as if they were children or morons, and the rest of us need to be protected from them. They have to be segregated. This is so palpably not the way to go. But nobody listens to the core pleading of sex-trade workers that prostitution be "decriminalized" so they can work safely from their homes, without threat of arrest, in control of their environment and their patrons.

“Here's the major problem,” says Valerie Scott, executive director of Sex Professionals of Canada (founded 1983, née Canadian Organization for the Rights of Prostitutes), and a practitioner for decades. “The existing legislation sees what we do as a vice. It doesn't see it as a legitimate business. Bawdy house rules make it illegal to work from their homes. Living off the avails, intended to curb pimping, isolates them. That criminalizes all of our healthy and normal relationships. We're not allowed to have a lover, a spouse, a roommate. We're so dirty, so morally bankrupt, that anyone who associates with us should be in jail. If I send a Christmas present to my parents, technically even that's illegal, because it comes from the profits of prostitution.”

This is what happens in most jurisdictions, such as Amsterdam, where prostitution has been legalized: The house gets 50 per cent, the government takes 25 per cent, the women work 10-hour shifts, they're not permitted to decline a client, and the brothel operator commonly extorts sex for himself into the bargain. Dutch women on the game won't accept those conditions so they work illegally. “Those women in the windows? All foreigners, from Eastern European countries” says Scott. “They're the only ones willing to put up with that level of extortion.”

The international trafficking in sex slaves, that's an entirely different problem and should not be conflated with prostitution as a legitimate career choice. “If there's extortion, charge their handlers” says Scott. “Assault, intimidation, coercion, forcible confinement — charge them. If prostitution is decriminalized, it will make it a lot easier for those girls to get away. Deal with it as an immigration matter. As it is, we can't get to her. She's terrified of the police, of being deported.”

Scott is equally contemptuous of the perception that prostitutes are unclean and need to be monitored up the wazoo. In fact, health studies in the United States have shown that sexually transmitted diseases are far less common among prostitutes than the general population. “I don't see anybody demanding that our clients be tested for STDs. See, they're morally clean. But prostitutes have been taking care of their own sexual health since before the invention of penicillin. And if the state tries to go poking around in my vagina, I won't allow it.”

It was Pierre Elliott Trudeau who famously declared that the state doesn't belong in the bedroom.
It doesn't belong in a prostitute's $-spot either.

Mike Del

02-13-07, 08:08

RN - welcome back. And thanks.

Article: interesting - but only the first paragraph and the last paragraph made any sense to me. Rather verbose, don't you think ?

MD

Rubber Nursey

02-13-07, 08:33

I agree - it could have had a lot more impact if the average person could read it without needing a dictionary and thesaurus on hand :)

But waffle and big words aside, what she said was the truth. To translate the article in simple terms...

People think sex workers are pieces of shit.
Clients of sex workers are pieces of shit by association.
People are allowed to SAY sex workers and clients are pieces of shit, without getting in trouble with the political correctness crowd.
We must protect the community from these morally degenerate pieces of shit at all costs.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

Rubber Nursey

02-13-07, 10:47

OK, serious now. This sort of thing cuts deep into my soul.

"A property manager likened them to "cockroaches.'' One morally upright resident said she felt like bathing her kids in Lysol after elevator encounters with the *****s".

I am a mother of two and (not legally, but close enough) step-mother of four. I am a GOOD MOTHER. My kids have no idea I was ever a sex worker. I have never done drugs, I've never had sex in front of my children, nor have I invited strangers into my home to have paid sex with me while my kids were in the building. Most sex-working mothers haven't. The woman in the paragraph above would UNDOUBTABLY let me babysit her children, if she knew me.

So why is it that - if she knew I'd had sex for money at some point in my life (in the privacy of my own bedroom or in a brothel) - I would suddenly become that 'other' sort of woman, that is a danger to her children's health???

Bango Cheito

02-13-07, 11:25

What scares me is how many people are open minded and tolerant about just about anything else, but sex for money causes their minds to snap shut like a steel trap. You can almost hear it SLAM!

I really think this issue is as big and as important as slavery was here 150 years ago.

Sasha Coffee

02-13-07, 19:07

I think that most of people who moan about the sex workers are uptight women. They are 40 past their prime, never had a orgasam, caught their husbands having numerous affairs, but can't leave because they were to dam lazy to get a job and are now unemployable. At 20 they went and caught a husband popped out a couple of kids and thought now I'm set for life.

They are bitter and twisted that life and living has passed them by. They are aware that husbands use hookers. They are aware their husbands would rather use hookers and they hate it.

So they parade around the media and local body governments and infect. They pass on their bitterness like the flu and smile the whole time they are doing it. They smile and waffle on about protecting the community and family values. Meanwhile their sons are at college and banging hookers and heading to strip clubs and their daughters are bonking some guy the same age as their father to get through college. Or working in a strip club for some extra pennies.

Both kids wander home at Christmas and listen to Mum about looking after yourself and you aren't doing anything to embarrass yourself. Both look at their mother laugh and lie.

The attitudes to the sex industry will slowly change. When the 20year olds of today are the 40 year olds of tomorrow and can remember the fun they had working in or visiting sex establishments. I;ve always noticed as well the
lower the socio economic group the more problem they have with the sex industry. The very rich don't give a shit. They don't care how you make your money they care what you do with it.

Besides my lawyer once said to me.

Sasha morals are expensive rubies and only Donald Trump can afford them.

Mike Del

02-14-07, 08:14

Sasha,

A former boss of mine (sadly no longer with us) once rebuked me in the early days of my career when I told him I wanted to kep a clear conscience - he asked me when I had acquired a taste for such luxuries ! I trained as a lawyer many years ago (but am now a reformed character as Woodrow Wilson said) - I still believe that you do the right thing so I missed out on the lobotomy they dish out at law school !

I agree with a lot of what you say and you are right. But, in my experience, unfortunately , a 'holier than thou' mentality (and I don't necessarily mean 'religious' - sometimes yes, sometimes no) is behind a lot of this. Those who scream the loudest usually have the most to lose or hide. It's a cause for them to get behind, it gives them something to believe in when nearly everything else has failed. Problem is, no matter how you look at it, 'evil' (of which they believe this is one manifestion) has managed to keep its head above water and always will. Is it any wonder prostitution is the world's oldest profession ? We are, no matter how you look at it, animals. We all have animal instincts, we crave certain things - air, food and sex. But we do not live in a vacuum. We do look the other way. We do have double standards. And I refer back to the Kerry Packer quote.

The point I disagree with you is whether the lower socio-economic classes have more of a problem. I don't think so - they know it is a way to earn a lot more money than the average Joe or Jane. And so do the higher echelons as well. Everyone wants the quick ladder to get to the goal - you don't analyse how many snakes there are, sometimes. And the rich DO have a problem with it when a) you get too high and mighty; b) when you encroach on their turf; and c) when property prices start to be affected. They'll always find a way to knock you down. Which is so hypocritcal.

Just my thoughts.

Opebo

02-14-07, 16:15

dear rn, thank you for your accolades of a few posts back. here you have summed up accurately public opinion:

people think sex workers are pieces of shit.
clients of sex workers are pieces of shit by association.
people are allowed to say sex workers and clients are pieces of shit, without getting in trouble with the political correctness crowd.
we must protect the community from these morally degenerate pieces of shit at all costs.

many men upon this forum fail to understand that not only the prostitute, but the john, and sexuality itself is under attack by the forces of social control, and for very good reasons. true, the prostitute bears the brunt of this attack (ultimately suffering is merely a gauge of how little power one has), but men too are, as your post and that article imply, condemned by society.

i can remember engaging in debates here years ago with mongers who believed themselves to be respected gentlemen, 'doing as boys do', and firmly ensconced in society's good graces. i have tried to remind mongers that we are a presecuted, reviled group, just like the homosexuals (who get a lot of grief on this forum), prostitutes/women, ephebophiles, ****s, workers, blacks, and the rest. i for one will always 'take the side' of the underdog (not that anything i do has any effect), and am shocked and outraged only by this - the hubris of the common man and his lack of sympathy for his brothers.

Rubber Nursey

02-15-07, 02:23

Opebo, I couldn't agree more. I am often amazed by the holier than thou attitudes a lot of the forum participants display towards myself and other sex workers - a case of the pot calling the kettle black, if ever I saw one! Do they honestly think that the 'stench' of sex work is less odourous on their own bodies, than on ours? By definition, a commercial sex transaction is an agreement between a buyer and a seller - without a buyer, there would be no seller. The monger is an intrinsic part of the sex industry.

Sex workers are, and always have been, a scapegoat. Men - particularly 'good Christian' men - have never been to blame for their own sexual desires. Read the Malleus, or the bible (pick a religion - they're all the same) or any other document used to control the masses over the ages. WOMEN are to blame for men's lust. But, of course, we can't have the good Christian wives of our good Christian men being seen as anything but asexual (otherwise it could be suggested that the man may not have complete control over his woman). So sex workers, the most wanton of all women, must be held accountable for men's lascivious nature. Good men would surely not actively seek out something as base and sinful as sexual gratification - it is us, the wh*res, who lure them in with our feminine wiles and unabashed sexuality. How can a man be blamed for giving in to a temptation that was surely created by the Devil himself?

The WSG posters who patronise us and put us down are really only perpetuating the time-honoured tradition of mongers blaming sex workers for their own weaknesses. We are an 'excuse' for men's bad behaviour.

Petemcc

02-15-07, 03:02

Opebo, I couldn't agree more. I am often amazed by the holier than thou attitudes a lot of the forum participants display towards myself and other sex workers - a case of the pot calling the kettle black, if ever I saw one! Do they honestly think that the 'stench' of sex work is less odourous on their own bodies, than on ours? By definition, a commercial sex transaction is an agreement between a buyer and a seller - without a buyer, there would be no seller. The monger is an intrisic part of the sex industry.

Sex workers are, and always have been, a scapegoat. Men - particularly 'good Christian' men - have never been to blame for their own sexual desires. Read the Malleus, or the bible (pick a religion - they're all the same) or any other document used to control the masses over the ages. WOMEN are to blame for men's lust. But, of course, we can't have the good Christian wives of our good Christian men being seen as anything but asexual (otherwise it could be suggested that the man may not have complete control over his woman). So sex workers, the most wanton of all women, must be held accountable for men's lascivious nature. Good men would surely not actively seek out something as base and sinful as sexual gratification - it is us, the wh*res, who lure them in with our feminine wiles and unabashed sexuality. How can a man be blamed for giving in to a temptation that was surely created by the Devil himself?

The WSG posters who patronise us and put us down are really only perpetuating the time-honoured tradition of mongers blaming sex workers for their own weaknesses. We are an 'excuse' for men's bad behaviour.

Rubber- that is the best posting I have seen here, thanks. Opebo, I don't hate you, I think you are a lousy low-life twat, but you also have a grasp on things and make some good points.
Love and kisses
Pete

Michelonger

02-23-07, 10:17

And talk of "Naturality".

Salutations for everybody in this thread from a Spanish guy, also involved in a serious relationship with the most beautiful, sexy but honest sexworker in the world. Well, that's my opinion after surfing the galleries, hahaah.

I've thoroughly readed nearly all the messages from this thread, very interesting points of view indeed, . Maybe only except the ones of the so called "Billy" the one minute shooter.

After making a porridge with all the ideas exposed in this thread, we get some undebateable pilars.

-Pay for sex is not a natural way of life, but imposed by religious hierarchy. (E. G. Babilonian sacred pros and all this stuff).

-Sex with pros must be protected/covered by all means in order to keep it going and stop the killing spread of STD. So it makes it again unnatural.

Agree?

Rubber Nursey

02-24-07, 01:17

On the contrary...

I think that taking advantage of the fact that there's a market for your particular talent/ability/gift/idea (in this case, sex) is perfectly natural. People who have something worth money are going to choose to profit from it. People with money are going to try and buy what's missing from their life. It's human nature.

As for condoms, the only truly 'natural' way of having sex is if you're doing it with the sole aim of procreation. With millions of women around the world on the Pill, and most people these days using condoms for casual sex, MOST sex would be considered 'unnatural' by, say, the Pope. But I would say that wanting to enjoy sex without having to suffer any negative consequences is a pretty natural choice as well. A natural desire for sexual gratification combined with a natural instinct for survival.

Welcome to the board, by the way! :)

Mike Del

02-24-07, 01:55

RN - another excellent post.

The only thing I wanted to add is that humans and dolphins are the only animals that have sex for fun (i.e. not with procreative intent in mind). So it is a natural instinct - for us, anyway.

And it is (almost) a natural instinct (in a money economy) to pay (if you afford it) for things you do not have.

Rubber Nursey

02-24-07, 02:42

And it is (almost) a natural instinct (in a money economy) to pay (if you afford it) for things you do not have.

Probably not just in a money economy. There's evidence of prostitution in some monkeys/apes (can't remember which ones) with females trading sex for food. There's those penguins who have to present a beautiful stone in order to get a mate. And in humans, the concept of 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' seems to be pretty much programmed into us from birth. The only way to get your car keys back from a baby is to offer something else in their place, and small children will only agree to lending a toy if the other person lends one in exchange. Money in exchange for goods is just another form of barter, no different to a caveman offering to swap a portion of his meat for a portion of another man's grain.

I think human beings are generally selfish creatures (natural selection/survival of the fittest at work?) We rarely do something for someone else unless we're gonna get something in return.

Bango Cheito

02-24-07, 05:49

I think quid pro quo is the way to go. Pure unadulterated altriusm is a TERRIBLE philosophy IMHO and has disastrous consequences in societies.

That's kinda what I like about the client/WG relationship, it's so uncomplicated. Obviously it's not a very trusting one, but I don't think that business and trust mix very well together. Trust is something one should extend to precious few other people and even then generally it takes time to build, or SHOULD take time to build between two sane people anyways.

Opebo

02-24-07, 09:15

Lets not get off into some Randian circle-jerk here, fellows. Socialism and the like have absolutely nothing to do with 'altruism', any more than capitalism has to do with 'selfishness'. It is all about power and control - in 'capitalism' a small owning elite has control of everyone else.

But I would say that wanting to enjoy sex without having to suffer any negative consequences is a pretty natural choice as well. A natural desire for sexual gratification combined with a natural instinct for survival.

Well, I cannot attain any sexual gratification with a condom. In fact it would be far more gratifying to sit at home and masturbate than have plastic sex.

Rock Dog

02-24-07, 10:11

Here's the plain truth.

Most men want to have sex. Whether or not they admit it, they prefer their sex with a stimulating variety of partners.

There's only two ways of having sex with a woman. One is to take what you want by force....ie. without the womans consent, against her will. Not a choice that will increase your social popularity.

The other way is to convince her to do it with you. This could be by acting nice to her. Having a desirable social status, taking her out and treating her nicely. Or it could just be to offer her enough money that she says yes. The only real differences in the convincing method are the details of how you go about obtaining her consent.

If you can see things this way, the whole idea of prostitution becomes a trivial detail. The uneducated, unsophisticated will always attempt to put negative labels on people. But this is mostly out of jealousy because they are too inhibited, too afraid, and have too many sexual hangups to let themselves partake freely of one of life's truly magnificent pleasures.

Their loss.

Rock

China Lily

02-24-07, 15:21

I like my job because I can make more than one month money to sell glamor, sexiness and a good fuck to a man who wants it and will pay me for it.

Like Rubber says, a Bonobo wants a banana so she gets it by giving sex to the male Bonobo.

I don't care that many customers look down on me, they pay me enough money so I don't care.

If more and more women sold sex and didn't care about face or people looking down on them then the price will be much lower.

Its because hipocrits look down on us that the price is high. If selling sex was "respectable" the price would come down and maybe I would do something else.

What I hate is the hipocrits who pay for sex from you then say you are bad because you sold it to them

China Lily

02-24-07, 15:28

Many men want sex so much they will pay for it. But working girls know lots of tricks to make men want it more, even if they begin not wanting sex. It's easy. Touch his leg, look at his eyes, smile sexy. Why ? because most women don't give men what they want. Womens behavior and wives cold to husband are reasons men want to pay for sex.

I think if a man gets sex and lots of sexiness first then he will be happy. If he eats good then he will have everything he wants.

George90

02-24-07, 17:24

The only thing I wanted to add is that humans and dolphins are the only animals that have sex for fun (i.e. not with procreative intent in mind). So it is a natural instinct - for us, anyway.

That statement is incorrect. Bonobo apes have sex all the time and have sex promiscuously. I think anthopologists said they use sex as a form of communication. Chimpanzees have been observed masturbating.

It is true that not many animals have sex for fun, but we humans are not the only ones. Most of the others are also primates.

Alex Rock

02-24-07, 17:24

Opebo,

Sorry to labor this point, but it's not all about the unprotected tip of your dick!. Sex can still be be great using all of your body, skin contact and visual stimulii - when wearing a condom that suits you. Maybe you've had the wrong size or thickness or don't know how to use condoms or you have only used the extra thick type or small brands that numb sensation!

The balance of risk vs. pleasure should be real simple - no matter how well you lubricate and think you are "informed", sex with hookers and one night stands will give you and the girls a higher probability of transferring STD's.

If you want the enjoyment of "unprotected" fucking, then I suggest you find regular well informed clean sex partners. If you want lots of variety, then learn to use better fitting consoms and enjoy whole body sex.

Please, please, please don't promulgate the fallicy that informed lubricated bareback sex is safe! It is not.

Please try to find condoms that suit you, and your style that you can enjoy with them for the girls as well as yourself.

Alex

George90

02-24-07, 17:37

If you can see things this way, the whole idea of prostitution becomes a trivial detail. The uneducated, unsophisticated will always attempt to put negative labels on people. But this is mostly out of jealousy because they are too inhibited, too afraid, and have too many sexual hangups to let themselves partake freely of one of life's truly magnificent pleasures.

I agree with the part about men wanting stimulating sex with a variety of partners. I disagree with the reasons you gave for the opposition to prostitution.

Certain men will ALWAYS be opposed to prostitution for a very basic reason. If women could earn enough money to support themselves through prostitution, what incentive would they have for working a sweatshop factory for the minimum wage????? THEY WOULDN'T WORK IN THOSE JOBS!!!!

Prostitution is illegal so that low-skilled women will be forced into low paying jobs. That means more money for business owners who then have a ready supply of cheap labor.

Opebo

02-24-07, 18:40

I agree with the part about men wanting stimulating sex with a variety of partners. I disagree with the reasons you gave for the opposition to prostitution.

Certain men will ALWAYS be opposed to prostitution for a very basic reason. If women could earn enough money to support themselves through prostitution, what incentive would they have for working a sweatshop factory for the minimum wage????? THEY WOULDN'T WORK IN THOSE JOBS!!!!

Prostitution is illegal so that low-skilled women will be forced into low paying jobs. That means more money for business owners who then have a ready supply of cheap labor.

Huzzah George, I couldn't agree more! Additionally I think there are other motivations - forcing men into the slave-situation of monogamy, and making them work very hard, again in jobs which benefit their owners, to make enough to please/keep a woman. If guys in the States could get decently laid for $50, it would greatly undermine a variety of behaviours which benefit the owning class (remember, every aspect of public policy must benefit this class in some way, otherwise it would not exist).

Availability of sex undermines the 'work ethic' as well as offering a powerful competitor for consumer dollars - If you could get an hour of good sex from a cute 20-25 year old for $50 a few times a week, would you place a high priority on an expensive car? A big house? I think it is doubtful.

Bango Cheito

02-26-07, 09:04

HAHAHAHHA so now we have made it to 'prostitution- BAD FOR THE ECONOMY'!

That does beg the question- DO people's priorities change in societies where prostitution is more legal/available/tolerated?

Colombia is one of the most progressive-minded countries when it comes to civil rights regarding things like prostitution, and prostitution is perfectly legal there (although in Bogota you HAVE to use a condom, sorry Obepo :P)... and their economy has been growing by leaps and bounds over the past several years.

I dunno about the legal situation in Russia but it is certainly widely available over there and they were one of the fastest-growing countries (economically) if not THE fastest-growing last year.

Opebo

02-26-07, 18:46

Colombia is one of the most progressive-minded countries when it comes to civil rights regarding things like prostitution, and prostitution is perfectly legal there (although in Bogota you HAVE to use a condom, sorry Obepo :P)

Really? Are you sure? I'll take your word for it that most girls insist on a condom, but I suspect there must be some that will go without. Heck I mongered for years in the US without a condom.

The Corn Hole

02-26-07, 21:53

There are heaps of girls in South America who don't give a shit about condoms. Some even want to have a Gringo's baby. Never been to Columbia but can't imagine the women's attitudes on this subject are so drastically different than women's attitudes in other SA countries.

In the US I've had no less than 3 escorts show up to my hotel without a single condom with them. My very first BB encounter with a hooker was a local escort. It was her idea and I was more than a little petrified of the risk. Back then I was clueless about STIs and thought if I engaged a hooker BB there was a fair chance I would wither away into nothing. The only reason I did it was because she seemed WAY more knowledgeable than me on testing and so on. She was the first person to ever tell me there were two different types of HIV tests and that she always got the more sophisticated test done. I was a little worried afterwards and went to get tested. Found out that everything she told me (about the PCR-DNA test and so on) was all 100%true.

But I still don't think it's a good idea to go on rampant bareback crusades all over the world. I'm not one to impose my thinking on anybody but recommend if you despise covered sex so much that you just curtail this activity to a select few. There are some mighty thin condoms on the market today. Try Sagami 002 from Japan. Feels very close to BB.

Availability of sex undermines the 'work ethic' as well as offering a powerful competitor for consumer dollars - If you could get an hour of good sex from a cute 20-25 year old for $50 a few times a week, would you place a high priority on an expensive car? A big house? I think it is doubtful.

If I had saved all the money I've spent on these decadent little trips of mine all over the world I probably could've bought a very expensive ride and would have enough for a FAT down payment on a luxury house. There's a certain level of pride I feel in not relinquishing most of my earnings to the stale and bloated consumer empire that is the US.

Fuck you GWB and all your corrupt, corporate elitist slime you fraternize with. :p

Wet Nose

03-01-07, 06:40

the foreign fuck

bob-sasha-tjia-0202what are your views about massage parlours in asia? my boyfriend told me that he had paid for sex while in china at a massage parlour. it bothers me to know of this. i know that often women and young girls are forced into the sex trade in asia and so i feel that paying for sex in places where we may not know if women are there of their own choice, or even how old they are, is exploitative. stacey

translation: dear sasha, please give me ammunition to fling at my disgusting boyfriend who took advantage of reluctant and cheap sex labour in a foreign country.

before you hitch up that high horse, miss stacey, you may want to look around the house at all the products you buy that were created through low-cost youth labour in third-world countries. just because you didn't finger-fuck the person who made them does not make you a barometer of moral rectitude.

like everyone in north america, i've been fed the same steady diet of images of destitute 12-year-old girls and boys being sexually exploited by slobbering first-world ****s. i have been suitably enraged by such depictions and yet have done absolutely nothing to stop it all from happening. i have, however, supplemented this information with personal anecdotes from political sex workers, and these stories are monumentally different. "what is true is that sex tourism is alive and well," says prostitution activist jenn clamen. "people come to montreal for the same reason. it is also true that there are cases of coercion in every workplace, and that is why we are working to decriminalize the industry, because these cases can be easily identified."

so yes, every country, including ours, has disinclined sex-trade workers (along with a host of others haplessly employed), but this is not the whole story. you may be surprised to know that there is an organization of prostitutes in india called the durbar mahila samanwaya committee, and one of their objectives is to get americans to stop sending them money to buy sewing machines. believe it or not, these people would rather be independent sex workers than labour in filthy, ill-paying factories sewing clothes for kathie lee gifford, and there are 60,000 of them. this same organization publicly criticized the award-winning documentary born into brothels. members of the dmsc were not aware that their children were being filmed, and many found the representation of mothers keen to usher their children into the business sensationalistic.

clamen says the perception that all asian sex workers are forced into the trade "is born out of xenophobia and complete ethnocentrism." as the thai organization empower collectively writes in an article for the prison issue of the sex-worker magazine constellation, "we are seen as empty pages that the anti-prostitution lobbyists and other misled bleeding hearts can write upon. they do not respect us as adult women with full histories, lives, skills, plans, and dreams of our own. they think we are stupid, ignorant and pity us and judge us as powerless. we are not recognized as working women and the family providers who support five to eight other adults. the way we migrant sex workers are perceived and treated as victims of trafficking reflects the attitudes towards our work."

it's the same story everywhere. anti-prostitution activists refuse to believe that anyone would want to do sex work, and their well-sustained position and tactics often present bigger problems for the workers themselves. from the same article by empower: "they force us to learn, whether we want to or not, never stopping to consider whether we already have the skills they are so anxious to thrust upon us or not. for example most of us can already sew, weave and cook. in the past the thai government gave funding to thai sex workers to start small businesses after we had been re-trained. after 3 to 6 months these businesses failed. the government learned what we already knew: that the economy is flooded with such small businesses." exit programs in north america present similarly hollow options by way of government-funded, month-long computer courses, offered in exchange for court time. the message is crystal clear: anything is better than being a hooker.

worse, many women who come to thailand from other asian countries are often deported after "rescue and rehabilitation" efforts, sometimes back to countries with military regimes like burma, countries that don't take at all kindly to their citizens leaving illegally to do sex work. you can read the entire article by empower online at www.chezstella.org/stella/?q=en/rr, and here are two other websites for you to better acquaint yourself with the diverse realities of sex work in asia: www.empowerfoundation.org and www.durbar.org. we are inclined when it comes to prostitution -- in a way that we aren't with any other business -- to railroad those with positive experiences simply because others have so clearly been hurt. i often wonder why we can't turn the same ever-vigilant eye to the business of war.

Opebo

03-01-07, 12:18

Thanks so much for the encouraging news regarding bareback sex, The Corn Hole. As for the article, Wet Nose, the most interesting aspect is that workers refuse to see that they are all coerced into their servile positions. Typical hubris - 'I'm better than you, due to <some unimportant detail> of my duties'.

Bango Cheito

03-02-07, 08:05

let me clarify. you must use a condom with a wg if you are in a brothel in bogota. if you take you to your hotel room all bets are off. the government has no right to barge in in that case, unless some other unrelated felony like a [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or murder takes place.

both colombian and brazilian girls are very very very big on condom use. is it possible to score without one? i wouldn't know, i have never asked. :p i kind of like condoms, i can totally control my orgasm with them.

Rubber Nursey

03-02-07, 13:51

Socialism and the like have absolutely nothing to do with 'altruism', any more than capitalism has to do with 'selfishness'. It is all about power and control - in 'capitalism' a small owning elite has control of everyone else.
I agree with you, Opebo, but I'm not sure that anyone was actually saying that. I was saying that the urge to swap something you've got with something you want, was perfectly natural. I reckon we're inherently selfish and we humans like to get something in return for a 'good deed', and thus I believe payment for sex (in cash or otherwise) is only natural.

Well, I cannot attain any sexual gratification with a condom. In fact it would be far more gratifying to sit at home and masturbate than have plastic sex.
You scare me, baby, you really do.

The Corn Hole

03-02-07, 21:57

This Sascha sees this issue very clearly, or at least clearer than most do in the media.

The irony of these anti-sexual exploitation campains by certain groups is they are often misdirected and place too much attention and resources on countries that actually have a much lower than perceived number of sex slaves. As someone who has spent alot of time in SE Asia I know that most of the articles written about young girls being sold into sex slavery are simply false. Most bargirls are far from slaves. Certainly compared to the ones working for Reebox or Nike. The bargirls are not obligated by management to go with anyone who pays their fine. In fact I've had a couple turn me down when I insisted LT and they only wanted ST, albeit this is far from the norm with them though.

Their attention should be redirected to the west if they really want to reduce extreme sexual exploitation. I have one word for them - SAIPAN. This is US territory and there have been many cases of girls from China and Philippines who arrive there to do work for their green cards only to be forced to prostitute themselves to pay off their debts. Further stories of forced abortions have been documented as well. This practice could've easily been abolished by the lawmakers on capital hill but the tiny, little evil man who was then Majority leader of the US house killed legislation that would've put an end to this abomination to human rights. I didn't see hoards of these groups marching on D.C. when this was going on. Before the US tries to sweep up other people's houses they had better get their own in order.

To Bango Cheito,

I can't speak of Columbian women being big on condoms but I can speak about Brazilian women. I can tell you it is not only possible to score without one with them but very easy provided you demonstrate a degree of loyalty to them and are somewhat young and healthy looking. I think it's not worth tagging them BB because they often get overly possesive and can turn into a real headache when you take the relationship to that level. Best to just stay covered and keep the relationship more casual in nature. It would be naive of you to think that 100% of the garotas you're banging use condoms 100% of the time with 100% of their clients.

I'll be in Rio in 5 weeks and am coming with an ample supply of these Sagami .002 condoms. Can't think of any better way to use them than on a plethora of round, brown bunda :)

Bango Cheito

03-03-07, 09:47

Corn Hole I was referring to WGs in Colombia and Brazil. I don't think too many people worldwide insist on using condoms with their bfs and gfs. :P

I'm gonna do a search for those Japanese condoms now. I don't need one with my gf but we do use em for threesomes and foursomes etc ;)

The Corn Hole

03-03-07, 22:45

I was referring to WG's also. Rarely do I mess around with Non Pros when I travel overseas. I just don't see the point of doing that. Why entangle yourself with only one girl when you can choose to engage in serious promiscuity? I don't get why this concept is so hard for them to understand. I also find it's easier for me to break the heart of a WG as opposed to a normal one. At least I feel alot less guilt about it. Think it's a softer blow for a WG to lose their grip on a western guy than for a NP.

I got the Sagami condoms delivered to me from a company in Hong Kong. The website is sampsonstore.com. They carry the larger size for the non- asian as well. I think they're widely distributed throughout Asia , so if you visit that continent you can probably find them cheaper.

Rubber Nursey

03-19-07, 02:53

no, i am definitely no expert on the inner-workings of these girls minds. the only way i could claim to be so is if i took everything they say at face value. i don't. i just assume at least half of everything that comes out of their mouths is total bullshit, and you should to. i judge them by their actions not their words. the p4p relationship is not like others but in some ways it's more honest and certainly more direct.
it's that honesty and directness that i love more than anything about the sex industry. there's none of that pathetic testing the boundaries and game playing (done by both sexes) of the dating scene, because you both know what you want and what you need to do in order to get it. once in the bedroom (or car or back alley!) there's no need for shame or fear, because you don't have to worry what the other person's lasting impression of you will be - you can just let go, experiment and enjoy. the sex part of p4p is raw and primal and honest and extremely liberating.

that said, that honesty often doesn't extend to the rest of the p4p relationship. traditionally, there is an inherent distrust between clients and sex workers - each of us suspects the other of stis, theft, violence, scams and ripoffs. neither of us trusts the other to tell the truth. some of that is based on previous bad experiences and some of it is based on stigma and stereotypes. but if there's a 'good side' to stigma it's that, as in any other marginalised and/or maligned community, it often leads us to form very strong bonds with our peers. that's why i can be pretty darn sure that when other sex workers are talking to me, they aren't spouting bullshit - particularly when i'm speaking to them as a peer educator/advocate, not as competition. why would they bother? would you feel compelled to hide anything from your mongering peers? i spend a whole lot of time with other hookers and there ain't no shutting us up once we get started. we'll talk about absolutely everything, because many of us need to. i respect and admire those girls who are 'out and proud' about being a worker, but a lot of us, for whatever reason, don't have that luxury. we're forced to keep half of who we are a secret from everyone we love and the freedom of being able to share stories and compare sex work experiences is vital to keeping our sanity. you guys are obviously none too different - this site is testament to that.

i'll lay all my cards on the table let's see if you'll do the same. what country do you live/work in?
that's no secret - my whole life story is on this site. :) i'm australian. since i live in the asia/pacific region, i've had a lot of contact with workers from asian countries, both as a hooker - there are many syndicates that 'run' girls from asian/indonesian countries to australian brothels - and in international advocacy and policy work. living in western australia, the indonesian cities are actually closer to me than the australian ones are ( i can fly to bali, for example, for half the cost of a flight to sydney). the australian sex worker network has strong ties with empower (thailand) and zi teng (china) and helped establish the sex worker group in png. since the introduction a couple of years ago of federal sex slavery laws, which only further marginalise 'foreign' sex workers coming into australia, migratory sex work has been one of our highest priorities and we've worked very closely with other sex workers in our region.

i'm not sure what specific cards you were wanting me to lay on the table - but there's not too many questions i won't answer. i had to choose years ago whether to come on this site as 'me' and watch i didn't say anything too personal, or keep my anonymity and be able to share explicit details of my experiences. considering the sort of personal sex worker specific questions i was being asked at the time, i figured the latter was more appropriate. so i'll answer anything that doesn't 'out' me. i write about my own hooking experiences and pass on stories i've been told by others. i comment on local and international sti/bbv policy and prostitution legislation because that's where my technical experience is. my sole aim in life is to improve conditions for individual sex workers. i can't do that properly without being able to see things from a client's point of view, which is largely why i'm still here. i've learned soooo much from you guys.

most sex workers around the world face the same challenges - limited access to health services, violence, police harassment, etc. stis are a concern for all of us in the sex industry, as is the ever-present and all-consuming stigma. the only real difference between us is our individual levels of empowerment. sex workers are disempowered by bad laws, stigma and marginalisation (the 'protect the people from the prostitutes' mentality that leads to those bad laws), policing practices and individual issues that affect agency, like the desperation of poverty. it's these things that need to be addressed. you can hand a sex worker a condom and teach her how to use it, but it doesn't mean a damn if she's not empowered to enforce it in the workplace.

i've read your posts, cornhole. you seem to be respectful to sex workers, which i'm always glad to see, and have a responsible attitude to sexual health. i wasn't criticising you at all, nor were my posts supposed to come across as a personal attack. i know i used the word 'naive', but you did too (as well as the word 'ignorant'!) and i tend to bite back a bit too quickly when someone treads on my tail. :) basically, what i meant to say was that you are from a different culture than those pi girls, so your assessment of their situation is likely coloured to a degree by preconceived notions of what they should be like. add to that the fact that sex workers often play all sorts of different games with clients (from harmless gfe acts for regular business, to outright manipulation) and you may be getting a very different picture than what's really going on in their heads. what i really took issue with, was that you were using this assessment to label sex workers as innately irresponsible/gullible/uneducated and therefore not capable of protecting themselves or their clients. that commonly held, but erroneous, belief is just one of many that further disempowers sex workers.

The Corn Hole

03-20-07, 00:01

but if there's a 'good side' to stigma it's that, as in any other marginalised and/or maligned community, it often leads us to form very strong bonds with our peers. that's why i can be pretty darn sure that when other sex workers are talking to me, they aren't spouting bullshit - particularly when i'm speaking to them as a peer educator/advocate, not as competition. why would they bother? would you feel compelled to hide anything from your mongering peers? i spend a whole lot of time with other hookers and there ain't no shutting us up once we get started. we'll talk about absolutely everything, because many of us need to.

if that's what you believe then fine. i'm sure they're willing to share more details with you than they would with me in certain areas. but i do think they wouldn't be entirely forthecoming on other matters for fear of judgement or worse. i don't know, nor am particularly inclined to find out. i don't believe their motives are always well hidden. in fact most of the time they are quite transparent in what they want. all i know is i've encountered many girls in the biz especially in asia and latin america who were not nearly as well informed about sexual health as you would like them to be. i just don't buy your theory that they are "experts" in the sex industry on disease prevention and what not. was it the organisation you're closely affiliated with who taught them that looking healthy and "clean" instantly translates into being healthy and clean? where many got that little pearl of wisdom from i wonder. you have your work cut out for you that's for sure.

stis are a concern for all of us in the sex industry, as is the ever-present and all-consuming stigma. the only real difference between us is our individual levels of empowerment. sex workers are disempowered by bad laws, stigma and marginalisation (the 'protect the people from the prostitutes' mentality that leads to those bad laws), policing practices and individual issues that affect agency, like the desperation of poverty. it's these things that need to be addressed. you can hand a sex worker a condom and teach her how to use it, but it doesn't mean a damn if she's not empowered to enforce it in the workplace.

i disagree that sti's are a concern for all in the sex industry. they are a concern for some. they are problematic for all. but how severe of a problem in which they pose for a wg can vary quite a bit. the most common ones can be easily cleared up with antibiotics and hardly "cause an interruption or end to their incomes." herpes doesn't cause a significant drop in their income either despite it not being cureable. even the most upscale brothels in the (developing) world (ie termas in rio, go-go bars in bangkok) don't screen for this and often times the girl who has it can keep on working there making the same amount of money she always did. on a side note, i just laugh at the guys that go to these high end establishments thinking they're fucking std free women. ok whatever. hiv would bar them from working at these places but that wouldn't signal an end to their career. they would just go looking for work elsewhere.

btw, you're probably aware that in se asia hiv is not nearly as commonly transmitted via sex as hep b is. i hope you're telling these girls to get vaccinated for this.

i've read your posts, cornhole. you seem to be respectful to sex workers, which i'm always glad to see, and have a responsible attitude to sexual health.
compared to who? :d

basically, what i meant to say was that you are from a different culture than those pi girls, so your assessment of their situation is likely coloured to a degree by preconceived notions of what they should be like. add to that the fact that sex workers often play all sorts of different games with clients (from harmless gfe acts for regular business, to outright manipulation) and you may be getting a very different picture than what's really going on in their heads.

it's really not that hard to figure out what they're thinking. basically she's thinking "maybe i can persuade this guy to fuck me in my pussy without a hat so i can have his baby and lay claim on him." i stand corrected these girls are thinking long term. ;)

what i really took issue with, was that you were using this assessment to label sex workers as innately irresponsible/gullible/uneducated and therefore not capable of protecting themselves or their clients. that commonly held, but erroneous, belief is just one of many that further disempowers sex workers.

didn't make a sweeping generalisation about all of them like you did. just said a big number are that's all.

Bango Cheito

03-20-07, 09:21

some thoughts on this subject....

i had a girl in rio give me a bbbj once and was surprised to see her dribble it out afterward. you'd think since the fucking federal government over there publishes a manual on sex work with a big section on safe sex practises that she'd have known to swallow. the bbbj was her idea not mine too. i don't mind cbj at all as long as the provider knows her stuff :p

in the dr, i can't personally confirm this obviously but i have heard tell of girls working with staff at the hotels to put holes in the condoms and then getting the 411 on their clients by sneaking a peek at their id. i'd imagine this would be a little more effective with a local :p

many people are carriers for herpes and never have had symptoms and possibly never will. you can never know who has it and who doesn't. also, people who have had it for a long time often don't have outbreaks anymore, or very rarely.

and finally, providers definitely lie to each other all the time, just as they lie to clients and for many of the same reasons. they lie about how much money a trick paid if it will be seen as too low or too high, they like about how much they have made or are making for the same reasons, they lie about what they will and won't do so that they won't seem like they are giving too much for too little or vice versa. given the nature of the beast, i don't think it is reasonable to expect them not to lie, it is rarely in their own best interest not to!

and if they engage in any kind of bb shit with a client they are definitely going to lie about that with just about everybody except for maybe their doctor.

George90

03-20-07, 14:50

And finally, providers DEFINITELY lie to each other all the time, just as they lie to clients and for many of the same reasons. They lie about how much money a trick paid if it will be seen as too low or too high, they like about how much they have made or are making for the same reasons, they lie about what they will and won't do so that they won't seem like they are giving too much for too little or vice versa. Given the nature of the beast, I don't think it is reasonable to expect them NOT to lie, it is rarely in their own best interest not to!

And if they engage in any kind of BB shit with a client they are DEFINITELY going to lie about that with just about everybody except for maybe their doctor.

I agree that many providers are giving BB service. I once received BBBJCIM without requesting it. In fact, when I asked her to stop becuase I was about to come, she said it was OK to CIM, and I did. This one also requested BBFS, but I rejected that. Other providers have readily accomodated my requests for BBBJ, without CIM.

My feeling is that some providers size up clients and decide to what degree they are willing to risk BB with a particular client. If he is clean, is not drunk, and seems 'safe', then I think there is a greater willingness to go BB.

I disagree that providers are undiscriminating in whether they go BB or not. I believe they are EXTREMELY discriminating. The question is whether their criteria are sound or not. One provider who allowed me BB everything, did so only after I provided negative HIV and syphillis test results. I am not sure that criteria based only on what a man looks like, without talking about habits and past behaviors, are sound.

The Corn Hole

03-20-07, 21:03

My feeling is that some providers size up clients and decide to what degree they are willing to risk BB with a particular client. If he is clean, is not drunk, and seems 'safe', then I think there is a greater willingness to go BB.

I disagree that providers are undiscriminating in whether they go BB or not. I believe they are EXTREMELY discriminating. The question is whether their criteria are sound or not. One provider who allowed me BB everything, did so only after I provided negative HIV and syphillis test results. I am not sure that criteria based only on what a man looks like, without talking about habits and past behaviors, are sound.

If you are talking specifically about providers in Brazil then I would tend to agree. But I also think they base their decision to BB on other factors too like physical attraction and how well they know the guy.

What I'm really trying to focus on here is SE Asia. This discussion began with an article on the Philippines in the safe sex section. As poor as sex education may be in Latin America it is almost non-existent in some Asian countries, particularly in the Philippines and Indonesia. There the vast majority of providers are very indiscriminate about who they have unprotected sex with, and I don't believe are aware or at least aren't really that concerned with the inherent risks involved. I really don't know where RN is getting all her information from but if it's based solely on the words of a few providers she's worked with then "Houston we have a problem." I understand what RN's motives are and actually think they're kind of noble. But I just think some of her conclusions she's come to based on all the data she's gathered are off base.

I also disagree with her on the dire need to empower sex workers around the world. I don't think they are as disempowered as she claims they are. This is a chosen profession for them and they are making more money for doing less work than most other females in their countries would be working regular day jobs. If they don't like what they're doing they can go find a job working for chump change just like everyone else would with their level of education. I just don't have them pegged as helpless victims being preyed upon by bloodthirsty wolves. Especially if they're dealing with foreigners. The people who really need empowerment are the ones working in sweatshops for next to nothing and only get one bathroom break per shift.

And finally, providers DEFINITELY lie to each other all the time, just as they lie to clients and for many of the same reasons. They lie about how much money a trick paid if it will be seen as too low or too high, they like about how much they have made or are making for the same reasons, they lie about what they will and won't do so that they won't seem like they are giving too much for too little or vice versa. Given the nature of the beast, I don't think it is reasonable to expect them NOT to lie, it is rarely in their own best interest not to!

And if they engage in any kind of BB shit with a client they are DEFINITELY going to lie about that with just about everybody except for maybe their doctor.

I agree with this entirely. I think mongers lie to each other as well on some of the same things.

Bango Cheito

03-21-07, 03:02

Rubber Nursey

03-21-07, 03:24

I also disagree with her on the dire need to empower sex workers around the world. I don't think they are as disempowered as she claims they are. This is a chosen profession for them and they are making more money for doing less work than most other females in their countries would be working regular day jobs....I just don't have them pegged as helpless victims being preyed upon by bloodthirsty wolves.

I'm the last person you need to preach that to! It's that exact concept that the entire sex worker rights movement is based on. One of the biggest obstacles in getting decent prostitution legislation is that most laws are based on the belief that sex workers ARE all victims, without agency and unable to make their own decisions - including the decision to become sex workers in the first place. Because to many people the idea of sex work is abhorrent, they can't for a second believe that any of us would CHOOSE to be a hooker; they make excuses for our behaviour, make assumptions about our characters and our motivations and then create laws and policies to effectively protect us from ourselves.

The type of 'empowerment' I'm talking about is not so much empowering individuals (although that's certainly important to me), but the big picture stuff. Freedom from police harassment and arrest, discrimination and stigma, violence and exploitation. Sex workers are disempowered by their social and political environment and often by bosses and/or clients in their workplace - for example, girls might desperately want to use condoms, but the brothel owner thinks they're bad for business and won't allow it.

Sex workers are right down there with the lowest of the low in most societies, including my own. Our human and civil rights are violated constantly, from slanderous and degrading media, to discrimination in courts, housing, employment, finance and access to sexual health services. You can't be truly empowered unless you have those basic rights. Our status in society and access to legal recourse affects every decision we make.

I can't do much to help those people in the factories (there's only so many causes one person can be involved in!) but advancing the rights of sex workers certainly does its bit in addressing poverty. Millions of women all over the world choose sex work as a means of survival, or to escape poverty completely. This is one of the very few jobs that an uneducated/unskilled woman can walk straight into, without experience, and earn a comparatively large amount of money in a short amount of time. Why shouldn't people have the right to choose sex work to feed themselves and their children? Would the Governments rather they sold drugs or stole things? Prosecution only perpetuates the cycle of poverty - women are charged with prostitution offences and fined (how are they supposed to get that extra money, if not on their backs?) or imprisoned, leaving them with a criminal record that will possibly exclude them from 'regular' employment for the rest of their lives.

Of course, if poverty were to end tomorrow, there would be many sex workers who would choose NOT to work in the industry. I'd love for that to be an option, too. But realistically, that's not gonna happen in a hurry. For now, sex work is a 'solution' to poverty for many and we should be supporting them in that decision and attempting to make it safe for them, not making them even more vulnerable.

Lazzaro

03-22-07, 14:38

There are heaps of girls in South America who don't give a shit about condoms.
Well, I cannot attain any sexual gratification with a condom. In fact it would be far more gratifying to sit at home and masturbate than have plastic sex.
You scare me, baby, you really do.
Please, don't forget to wear raincoat (http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6007/minicadore37006em1.jpg) always and everywhere

The Corn Hole

03-23-07, 18:21

It's VERY good in parts of Latin America. But it depends on what country. In Colombia and Brazil it's something the governments take seriously, both locally and federally. In the DR it's almost nonexistent and they have a growing AIDS epidemic there.

Yeah, you're right about sex education being good in Brazil, at least better than other countries in L.A. It's sort of ironic to me though. I've been to Tijuana, Mexico city, Costa Rica, Buenos Aires AR and the almighty Rio. In TJ the majority wanted to only do CBJ which is unacceptable to me, CR was the same (although it was easier to find BBBJ there), in BA about 50% would do it and some wanted extra for it. Out of all those places it was Rio where every provider I encountered had no objection to BBBJ, and there was more CIM in Rio than I've had in any other city except for maybe Jakarta. Never had any provider object to to an uncovered BJ. CBJs are an urban legend in Brazil! Three or four girls in 4x4 and a couple in Centaurus gave a clear indication that bareback sex was acceptable to them as well. The government is doing a good job promoting safe sex with regards to distributing condoms and treatment and all that stuff but I wonder how much of that message actually resonates with the population. Then again maybe it's so good in Brazil that they all know the risks from a BBBJ are virtually nil so don't feel any paranoia whatsoever about it.

RN,

I very much agree with everything you said in the fourth paragraph. I don't think very many women are charged with prostitution offenses in the Philippines but have no doubt some are in Indonesia. I believe it's a worthy cause to persue and you definitly should focus heavily on SE Asia right now because that's where sex workers face great problems. I very much believe that the most immediate and severe health risk WG's face over there is not HIV but Hepatitis B. One girl told me she knew two WGs who died from it and knew of nobody who died of Aids. This is absolute madness considering there's a vaccine for this that can render you immune to it. I think various sex work organisations should concentrate on making resources available and make sure they all know where to get vaccinated.

I also recently read an arcticle that said there is a small chance this virus can be transmitted from sweat! Pretty frightening stuff.

Bango Cheito

03-24-07, 03:54

Yeah they still do BBBJ a lot in Brazil, but not always. When they do it MOST of the time they know to just swallow and call it a day. Or just dont let the guy come there.

Rubber Nursey

03-24-07, 04:13

I believe it's a worthy cause to persue and you definitly should focus heavily on SE Asia right now because that's where sex workers face great problems.
With our position in the Asia/Pacific, Australia and New Zealand play an important role in the mentoring of health organisations and policy development for SE Asia. Most of Australia's health strategies, particularly those developed by the Commonwealth, have a whole of region focus. As you can imagine though, there's only so much we can do on our end - if it's not taken up by Governments on the other end, or if the strategies are implemented badly, SE Asian sex workers miss out. Again, this is big picture stuff, where Governments have to be convinced that the problems warrant their time and money, before anything can actually be put into practice. There's still some Governments out there who flatly deny prostitution even exists in their country!!

I very much believe that the most immediate and severe health risk WG's face over there is not HIV but Hepatitis B. One girl told me she knew two WGs who died from it and knew of nobody who died of Aids. This is absolute madness considering there's a vaccine for this that can render you immune to it. I think various sex work organisations should concentrate on making resources available and make sure they all know where to get vaccinated.
There is no denying that there are exceedingly high rates of HIV in some international sex worker communites. If you combine that fact with what I said in my last post - that most sex industry policy and legislation is based on stereotypes and misconceptions - you'll see why this terrifies world leaders and health organisations. We already had a reputation as 'vectors of disease'. As 'uneducated IV drug users, engaging in high risk sex practices', they thought we were gonna put the whole world at risk of an HIV epidemic. For once, negative stigma actually worked in our favour.

Governments worldwide started pouring money into HIV strategies. Sure, for many of us, HIV isn't really a huge threat. But all that increased funding and awareness raised the profile of health and safety issues for 'deviant ' communities (sex workers, IV drug users, gay men) - groups that nobody had previously given a toss about. With HIV funding, we can educate people about safe sex (and IDU) practices that prevent the transmission of a multitude of other STIs and BBVs, as well as HIV. Governments were also forced to examine other outside factors that increased HIV risk to these communities, like stigma and discrimination preventing people from accessing health services and increased risk of violence in 'hidden' or illegal environments. Personal empowerment of marginalised communities was finally put on the agenda.

Rest assured, just because our strategies say that we are only targeting HIV, doesn't mean we don't know the realities and understand what's really important to sex worker health and safety. ;)

With regard to your comments about Hep B in PI, I'd be really interested in finding out more, like names of cities/towns and the sort of environments these girls were working in (brothels, street, etc). You can PM me if you'd rather keep it off the board. I'd be interested in looking into the issue further. Unfortunately, this is another case where Governments need to be proactive in making vaccines accessible and promoting their availability. I don't know what the specific policy is for Hep vaccinations in the PI. In my state, 'at risk' groups can access free Hep A&B shots. Sex workers are one of those groups, BUT, walking into your doctor's surgery and announcing that you're a hooker is not as easy as it sounds. As always, disclosure of your sex worker status can have long-term negative consequences. If you aren't willing to say that you're a sex worker, you can still get the shots, but they can be pretty expensive. When I got mine a number of years ago (for free) the cost to general community members was a course of three shots at $75 each shot. If that was the case in PI, it would be out of reach to many sex workers.

Like you said, it's totally unacceptable for people to be dying from an illness that is totally preventable.

http://www.thebody.com/cria/winter06/sex_workers.html
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/bureau/inf/magazine/26/sex.htm#note1

Rubber Nursey

03-24-07, 05:02

Can I just add that there are other factors that affect a sex worker's decision to not provide bareback services, aside from a fear of catching something from her clients. One obvious one is that she may be protecting you from disease. For example, she may be in the middle of treatment for chlamydia of the throat, or just getting over a coldsore and trying not to give you herpes.

But there are other more personal reasons for enforcing condom use, for example:
- The client's personal hygiene. She may be using a condom rather than telling you straight-up that your penis is too dirty or stinky to put in her mouth!
- The risk of infecting her partner. Many hookers have boyfriends/husbands that they don't use condoms with and would not risk contracting something from a client and taking it home to their loved one.
- A psychological barrier. This is the one that actually applied to me and I've described it in this section before. Condom use often separates your working life from your private sex life in your head. It's no secret that a lot of us are extremely vigilant with clients and then throw all our education and fears out the window when we pick up some hottie in a pub. For some workers that's a conscious decision, but for most I think it's probably just our bodies and brains subconsciously trying to make a distinction between sex for money and sex for us. I think sometimes clients forget that as well as being hookers, we are also women who have lives and loves outside of the sex industry.

These things also apply for women who do not allow DATY. The personal hygiene one may be about our personal hygiene. Girls could be using antibacterial creams, have their period, have had unprotected sex with their partner a couple of hours before... We aren't gonna tell you any of those things (and would you really want us to?!) We're just gonna say no. It doesn't necessarily mean we're lazy, not into our work or afraid of disease.

The Corn Hole

03-24-07, 17:30

Can I just add that there are other factors that affect a sex worker's decision to not provide bareback services, aside from a fear of catching something from her clients. One obvious one is that she may be protecting you from disease. For example, she may be in the middle of treatment for chlamydia of the throat, or just getting over a coldsore and trying not to give you herpes.

But there are other more personal reasons for enforcing condom use, for example:
- The risk of infecting her partner. Many hookers have boyfriends/husbands that they don't use condoms with and would not risk contracting something from a client and taking it home to their loved one.
- A psychological barrier. This is the one that actually applied to me and I've described it in this section before. Condom use often separates your working life from your private sex life in your head. It's no secret that a lot of us are extremely vigilant with clients and then throw all our education and fears out the window when we pick up some hottie in a pub. For some workers that's a conscious decision, but for most I think it's probably just our bodies and brains subconsciously trying to make a distinction between sex for money and sex for us. I think sometimes clients forget that as well as being hookers, we are also women who have lives and loves outside of the sex industry.

These things also apply for women who do not allow DATY. The personal hygiene one may be about our personal hygiene. Girls could be using antibacterial creams, have their period, have had unprotected sex with their partner a couple of hours before... We aren't gonna tell you any of those things (and would you really want us to?!) We're just gonna say no. It doesn't necessarily mean we're lazy, not into our work or afraid of disease.

I can assure you these reasons don't at all apply to providers in most of the third world. They don't apply to the majority of sex workers in Brazil and most certainly don't apply to most in SE Asia. The reasons you outlined below most of the time take a back seat to pulling in the bread. Remember that many of us here have extensive experience mongering outside of N. America, Australia, and Europe.

Not that I really care what their particular reason might be anyway.

I'll probably discuss the Hep B risk a little more in the safe sex section.

Mike Del

03-28-07, 09:46

The Corn Hole is right, I figure but equally so is RN - what it comes down to is a combi of fear (of disease), education (whether you know what you can get) and greed (the money).

Funny how many jobs share that sort of thing.

Member #3404

03-30-07, 13:34

I was in a business trip in Brussels. There I met with a hooker in coming from Albania. She was working on a street brothel. She so beatiful and sweet that I visited her 4 times in a day. She kissed me several times, asked me what my job is, where I come from etc. As a professional working in a multinational firm & seen as handsome by others, she really liked me (or played I don't know). We exchanged our cell phone numbers. Even as her shift finished, we got out the brothel and walked a while on the street. I was really kind to her. Next day I headed to my country. After that she wrote me SMS saying " I really fell in love with you. Please come. ", "You are my ideal men, when I look your SMS I cry. " It is true that I also felt something in my heart (maybe because of her SMS? ) But the strange think is, she says me "my love" etc.

Is it possible that she could be in love with me? I am really confused because she knows that I am married, I have a son. I also feel something in my heart (is it lust or love not sure). The thing is I also love my wife, but don't know what to do.

Sometimes I say, OK do not answer her, forget her, he was a prostititue. But I cannot do. Please advise.

Rubber Nursey

03-31-07, 07:03

Hi there, Sikici72. Welcome to the board :)

Firstly, I would say forget the fact that she was a prostitute, because I don't think its really relevant. Yes, she could be playing you for more money or regular business (it's always great to find a client who is nice, good looking and rich!) But the same applies to 'regular' women, who may be golddiggers or just looking for a boyfriend who will spoil them.

Are you maybe feeling a little sorry for her because she's a sex worker? What would you think if a 'regular' woman told you she was in love with you after spending only one day together?

Also, is this the first time you've had sex with a sex worker? Or perhaps the first woman you've had sex with since you got married?

Here's my take on your situation: You had great sex with a beautiful woman in a foreign country - not to mention the buzz that comes from having illicit sex outside of marriage. I doubt what you're feeling is love. It probably could be lust, but even then I'm not so sure. What's probably tugging at your heart strings is the feeling of freedom/excitement/danger/passion/etc that come with having an affair, having a 'holiday romance' in an exotic foreign location, being touched by someone new or paying for sex (if that's not something you've done before).

Maybe the girl really likes you, maybe she's playing you or maybe she's just a really needy, vulnerable woman who falls for every man who is nice to her. Who knows. But you are a married man and unless you're willing to leave your wife and son for a woman you don't even know, you're not in a position to offer this girl anything. I don't think there's any harm in you responding to her SMS and keeping in touch with her, so long as you make it clear that a relationship is not going to be possible.

Member #3404

03-31-07, 10:11

Rubber Nursey,

Thanks for your free physcological session. You are right, I think the girl is vulnerable. However it was not the first time for me. I am always nice to WGs. But they exploits that, I have also faced before.

You are right, a WG is a WG and a family is a family. One should not be spent in the favor of the other. Sure I will reply her SMS but making no promises as you mentioned. I can be a good customer for her but not a lover.

Because I love my wife, when we married we started from scratch, she did not love me because I was handsome & rich. She only trusted me and our future. I think we also need WGs, they are a gift from God to us. (for the excitement and other sensualities they give us). Only for that reason they deserve to be nice. But I will be careful not to go further.

Many thanks again, if you have more advice, I will appreciate it.

Opebo

03-31-07, 19:57

Siki, do not 'decide to forget', or make a project of forgetting, just go have sex with lots more prostitutes, and you will naturally forget. Or at least she will be put in perspective.

You might also find it interesting to apply the cognitive behaviour therapy paradoxical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_intention) intention (http://www.algy.com/anxiety/mt/archives/000794.php). To do this you obsess over the thing which is troubling you - in your case a prostitute (though the classic case in the literature concerns a man with a desire to stab people in the street). After obsessing about it for a long time, the desire becomes either boring or ridiculous or both. For example when you return to see her she will be disappointing compared to your obsessive fantasies.

JackTheLad2

03-31-07, 20:40

Siki, do not 'decide to forget', or make a project of forgetting, just go have sex with lots more prostitutes, and you will naturally forget. Or at least she will be put in perspective.I found this interesting and agree with Opodo and rubbery nursery. I too had a similar experience. After 38 years of being faithful to my wife. I found myself in HK, surrounded by young, keen ladies and I am 65 years. You are flattered and it is easy to be taken in. The women are fantastic in bed and do and say all the things that your wife did many years earlier. You "fall in love" with the idea, not the person. I still exchange texts and e-mails with those I met in HK but the passion and desire is waning over time. I know deep down that one day they will not contact me and that will be that. They were really nice girls caught in the trap of using the oldest profession known to earn money to keep them back in Philippines. To be fair none has asked me for any money but they are keen for me to visit them. I only paid them for services rendered. Ironically on my return to the UK I used the services of "escorts" for the first time. At hefty prices and this helps to make you forget what happened in HK. I have however deliberately not fallen for any of them. Its F. And forget.

Its a wonderful life enjoy it!

Wanking

04-01-07, 00:40

Was watching that movie tonight. Really enjoyed it too.

Upon first meeting Bond, Vesper Lynd (the love interest) archly observes that he’s a man who views women as “disposable pleasures rather than meaningful pursuits.”

Well I guess most of us here share the same view as Bond :D

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381061/

Buko Max

04-02-07, 22:01

www.dutchamsterdam.nl/142-amsterdam-prostitution-statue

Only in Amsterdam because if it were put up anywhere else, there would be trouble!

Starchild2012

04-02-07, 22:51

Wow..I did not know any research or name has being given to this type of theraphy..but i can tell you it works wonderfully in any types of addiction..

It will sound insane but i had as people call it all sorts of addiction over eating, tv addict, net addict, sex addict, smoking, over sleeping :) anything that society consider abnormal i considered normal....but sometimes i felt i could not take it anymore and when im on the end of it..i just over did it..Yeah..just over do whatever you feel you wanna get rid of..automatically your body and mind will reject it completly....i have done it countless times and i have bounced back to life successfully...now i smoke only if i want to, i have sex if i want to and i eat when i feel it

My social and professional life is normal and i balence it with this therapy, yet enjoy all the thrills that society considers morally and medically wroung :)

Thanks for the links man..now i know being my own medicine man was right..saved 1000s at theraphy and that money went to all the good things in life thats society considers bad :D

Siki, do not 'decide to forget', or make a project of forgetting, just go have sex with lots more prostitutes, and you will naturally forget. Or at least she will be put in perspective.

You might also find it interesting to apply the cognitive behaviour therapy paradoxical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_intention) intention (http://www.algy.com/anxiety/mt/archives/000794.php). To do this you obsess over the thing which is troubling you - in your case a prostitute (though the classic case in the literature concerns a man with a desire to stab people in the street). After obsessing about it for a long time, the desire becomes either boring or ridiculous or both. For example when you return to see her she will be disappointing compared to your obsessive fantasies.

Bango Cheito

04-03-07, 07:48

Get them to study comparative religion, especially some of the ancient religion. Get them to study ancient cultures and customs. Point them towards some of the literature written on BABALON, The Scarlet Woman, the great ***** talked about in the book of Revelation.

And then don't be surprised when they mindfuck YOU because they will be spiritually WAY superior to you by the time they are done. :P

George90

04-03-07, 15:17

there is a columnist for the new york times, nicholas kristof, who often writes about prostitution. a few years ago he wrote about 2 girls he bought from a brothel owner in order to return them to their families.

today he has written another prostitution article, another horror story. i would like to get comment from the wgs here to get an idea of how common, or uncommon, these types of events are. i have a heard time believing such abuse is as rampant as some suggest when there are still so many women around the world working as prostititutes and groups of them talk so much with each other.

here are some paragraphs.

sanctuary for sex slaves
by nicholas d. kristof
meerwala, pakistan

“the first month of marriage was o.k.,” ms. parveen recalled. “and then he said, you have to do whatever i tell you. if i tell you to sleep with other men, you have to do that.”

it turned out that mr. fareed was running a brothel and selling drugs, and he intended ms. parveen to be his newest prostitute. “i said, ‘no, i don’t want to sleep with other men,’ ” she said, but he beat her unconscious with sticks, broke her bones and at one point set fire to her clothes. finally, she broke and assented.

her “husband” locked her up in one room, she said, and the only people she saw were customers. “for two years, i never left the house,” she said.

this kind of neo-slavery is the plight of millions of girls and young women (and smaller numbers of boys) around the world, particularly in asia. a major difference from 19th-century slavery is that these victims are dead of aids by their 20s.

finally, ms. parveen was able to escape and return to her family, but mr. fareed was furious and began to torment her family, saying he would let up only if she returned to the brothel as his prostitute. then mr. fareed’s gang pressured ms. parveen by kidnapping her younger brother, uzman, who was in the fifth grade. uzman says that his hands and feet were shackled, and he was raped daily by many different men, apparently pimped to paying customers.

the gang members explained that they would release the boy if ms. parveen returned to the brothel, and she contemplated suicide.

mr. fareed also threatened to kidnap and prostitute ms. parveen’s younger sister, naima, a 10th-grader who was ranked first in her class of 40 girls. panic-stricken, the parents pulled naima out of school and sent her to relatives far away. so her dreams of becoming a doctor have been dashed.

this nexus of sex trafficking and police corruption is common in developing countries. the problem is typically not so much that laws are inadequate; it is that brothel owners buy the police and the courts.

but ms. parveen’s tale arises not only from corruption, but also from poverty.

“if i had money, this wouldn’t be happening,” said ms. parveen’s mother, akbari begum. “it’s all about money. in the police station, nobody listens to me. the police listen to those who sell narcotics.”

“god should never grant daughters to poor people,” she added. “god should not give sisters to poor brothers. because we’re poor, we can’t fight for them. it’s very hard for poor people, because they take our daughters and dishonor them. there’s nothing we can do.”

Opebo

04-03-07, 16:09

Nicholas Kristoff is a right wing religious conservative neocon, George. Virtually all US 'journalists' fall into this camp, as they control the US press. And no surprisingly everything they print is a lie.

The basic problem with the story you quoted is the underlying assumption that having sex is some kind of horror for women. These rightwingers think there is nothing worse that can happen to a woman - just like the Muslims. Of course a more realistic view is that it is no big deal, and better money than other jobs. You can count on stories in the US press about prostitution to be religious yellow journalism.

Rubber Nursey

04-05-07, 05:03

I agree with Opebo, George. Yes, there are certainly men and women around the world who live these horrors, but for every one of them there are thousands of others working by choice, with complete physical and financial autonomy. Certain people (particularly flunkies of the Bush Administration) would like the world to believe that these horror stories present the 'real' face of prostitution - that ALL sex workers live like this and as such, ALL prostitution should be banned to protect the poor hookers from the inherent violence and exploitation.

But here's the thing - what the article below described is NOT prostitution. It's deprivation of liberty, sex slavery, threats and intimidation, sexual and physical assault, kidnapping, child abuse and a multitude of other crimes that have NOTHING to do with prostitution. Prostitution is the act of having sex for money - what could possibly be dangerous about that? (Aside from, as Opebo said, the 'horror' of sex itself and the apparent irreparable damage we're doing to our mortal souls!)

What makes prostitution dangerous is illegality, lack of legal recourse and being forced to operate in shadow. And guess what - those laws and community attitudes are a direct result of scaremongering and misinformation spread by articles like the one you posted. The more people try to protect us from the 'evils' of prostitution, the harsher the laws get, which only makes it MORE dangerous for sex workers.

George90

04-05-07, 19:02

i agree with opebo, george.

i am disappointed. i was ignoring opebo's post because it demonstrated complete and utter ignorance of mr. kristoff, was full of political insults, and said nothing of the issues i raised in posting the article.

mr. kristoff is not conservative, nor right wing, nor religious. he is left-wing and very liberal. he regularly attacks president bush and the neocons over iraq, iran, israel, abu ghraib, and the lack of attention to darfur, the tsunami vctims of 2004, and other needy places in the world.

one of his 'bleeding heart' projects is to save the women of the world from miserable lives of forced prostitution.

yes, there are certainly men and women around the world who live these horrors, but for every one of them there are thousands of others working by choice, with complete physical and financial autonomy.

this is the issue i want to raise and discuss. how many women are forced or coerced into prostitution versus how many women voluntarily walk into prostitution. do you have any numbers on this, rn?

but here's the thing - what the article below described is not prostitution. it's deprivation of liberty, sex slavery, threats and intimidation, sexual and physical assault, kidnapping, child abuse and a multitude of other crimes that have nothing to do with prostitution. prostitution is the act of having sex for money - what could possibly be dangerous about that?

now we are onto something! "prostitution is the act of having sex for money." if what kristoff describes is not prostitution, then what is it? [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)? then let's call it that! when a woman is kidnapped and forced to have sex for money all of which goes to a pimp or brothel owner, she is not prostituting herself. she is being raped! she is not a sex worker. she is a [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) victim!

what makes prostitution dangerous is illegality, lack of legal recourse and being forced to operate in shadow. and guess what - those laws and community attitudes are a direct result of scaremongering and misinformation spread by articles like the one you posted. the more people try to protect us from the 'evils' of prostitution, the harsher the laws get, which only makes it more dangerous for sex workers.

exactly! laws against prostitution do not protect women from kidnapping and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)! it seems that lawmakers in many countries are more concerned about women making money off of sex than about preventing women from being kidnapped and serial raped.

Rubber Nursey

04-05-07, 22:30

i am disappointed. i was ignoring opebo's post because it demonstrated complete and utter ignorance of mr. kristoff, was full of political insults, and said nothing of the issues i raised in posting the article.
sorry, george. i should clarify that i wasn't agreeing with opebo's comments on that particular journalist (i've never heard of him), but with what he said about the underlying assumption that sex is somehow horrible for women, therefore prostitution must be the worst thing we could ever do to ourselves and that many of these types of articles are simply religious and/or right-wing propaganda.

this is the issue i want to raise and discuss. how many women are forced or coerced into prostitution versus how many women voluntarily walk into prostitution. do you have any numbers on this, rn?
depends who you ask. some people would claim that every woman in prostitution had to have been forced or coerced. realistically, women who are in the sort of predicament described in your article would be unwilling or unable to seek help and will often be well hidden, so they just can't be counted. on the other hand, migrant (particularly asian) sex workers, street based workers and any other 'vulnerable' women in the industry are often described as 'forced or coerced', even when they aren't. so there are no reliable numbers.

what needs to be discussed first is how we define forced and coerced, as the terms are often misused, particularly by abolitionists and other anti-prostitution activists.

the woman your article described was quite obviously physically forced into doing something she didn't want to do. but the line is often quite blurry. contract workers are a perfect example. sex worker rights groups call them contract workers - but most of the world knows them as 'sex slaves' in 'debt bondage'. these women, usually from asian countries, choose to make big money in a foreign country. thanks to stupid laws which don't allow them to come into the country specifically to be sex workers, they have to go through middle men ('traffickers') who charge them exorbitant fees. they then have to work these debts off before they can start earning money for themselves, with their passports often kept as collateral. these women wanted to come here to work as sex workers. the 'traffickers' would not exist if girls could get a working visa and come here independently - this 'sex slavery' is a direct result of dodgy government policy. this is not to say that there's no such thing as trafficked women or sex slaves - just that it's much less common in these situations than most people think and it would happen much less often if governments would only realise that their policies are actually keeping these traffickers in business.

myself, i was 'forced' into prostitution by crippling debt - well, that's how the feminazis would excuse my disgraceful behaviour, anyway. but what if i'd chosen another means to support my family? would people feel sorry for me if i was 'forced' to start my own landscaping business, or 'forced' to work in a childcare centre?

and what exactly constitutes coercion? if a pimp says to a drug addict 'come and be one of my girls and you can earn a thousand dollars a day to support your habit', it's considered a classic case of coercion. but what if a high-profile celebrity says to that same drug addict 'come be my personal assistant and i'll pay you a thousand dollars a day to support your habit'. coercion...or fabulous, once in a lifetime opportunity?

it seems that lawmakers in many countries are more concerned about women making money off of sex than about preventing women from being kidnapped and serial raped.
now you're getting it. :)

Bango Cheito

04-06-07, 07:51

In my personal experience, which is pretty large, I have met women from all over the world all over the US Canada and in several Latin American countries. I have seen many different facets of the sex industry, I know people who work in porn, both behind and in front of the camera. I've been to underground parties, strip clubs with secret (and not so secret) back rooms, termas in Brazil, straight up brothels, even picked a girl up off the street in Montreal once.

I've NEVER EVER seen the slightest shred of evidence to even HINT that there was any sign of coercion or lack of consent on the WG's parts. This includes the girls that were brought over by the coyotes and worked in brothels here. They all knew the score before they came over. And moreover, they are allowed completely free movement when they are not working. For that matter, if they want to work off their debt waiting tables instead of having sex, they are free to do that as well. Funny thing, nobody ever chose the waitress thing though :P the coyote's fees typically take 6 months or so to pay off and after that you are BANKING.

If there are any cases of women being coerced or straight up forced into prostitution they have to be 1 in 1000 at the very most IMO.

NicFrenchy

04-12-07, 16:04

Since when is the word "Prostitute" a disrespectful word?

Prostitution describes the act of sexual intercourse in exchange for money. However, its definition may be extended loosely to include any sexual act for any type of compensation

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this words in and of itself.

It's the context that counts, it's the user, it's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad, the words are completely neutral.

You can't be affraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth. You prefer to use words that "hide" the truth? That conceal reality?

For example: It makes me smile when I hear the word "working girls". Aren't 99% of women on this Planet "Working girls"? Isn't a working girl an employed person of the feminine sex? No matter what industry?

As far as I am concerned, there are no other words than "prostitution" to qualify the type of work these ladies are engaged in, but does it mean that because I think this way I am a disrespectful person towards those same ladies? No so.

You can use any euphemism you want, you can even call the ladies "Bar Angels". It is not going to make their "work" any easier.

Rubber Nursey

04-13-07, 02:47

Since when is the word "Prostitute" a disrespectful word?

It's not that it's necessarily disrespectful. There are plenty of girls all over the world who proudly call themselves 'prostitutes'. There are also others that call themselves sex workers, wh*res, hookers, working girls, tarts, courtesans, pros and a multitude of other names.

What I feel is most important is that people use the word that the sex industry asks them to. For example, if I say that I want to be called a 'sex worker', then people should call me a sex worker. It's not so much about politics or 'hiding the truth' - it's just garden-variety respect for another person's wishes. I've noticed a lot of actresses these days prefer to be called 'actors' and I think that's quite bizarre, but the media have gone along with it and called them actors because that's what they've been asked to do.

In Australia and many other countries, the term 'sex worker' is used almost universally. The term was coined by an American sex worker activist (Carol Leigh) and serves two purposes. Firstly, it places the sex industry into an industrial framework, rather than being considered a 'lifestyle choice'. It indicates that sex work is work, not some alternative sexual orientation or deviation. Secondly, it encompasses everyone in the sex industry better than the word prostitute does. For example, a woman who gives nude massages and hand relief couldn't be accurately described as a prostitute, but she is definitely a sex worker.

I, personally, hate the word 'prostitute'. Along with the dictionary definition you cited, you'll find that to 'prostitute' yourself also means to debase yourself for financial gain or use your talents for immoral/unethical/evil purposes. When someone calls me a prostitute, that's the image the word conjures in my head, which is why I hate it. But there are plenty of other workers out there who are happy to use the word prostitute to describe themselves. It's just personal preference.

Along with the context it's used in, as you mentioned in your post, using the word prostitute (or any other term) only becomes disrespectful when someone has specifically asked you not to use it and you continue to do so anyway.

Rubber Nursey

04-13-07, 03:54

It makes me smile when I hear the word "working girls". Aren't 99% of women on this Planet "Working girls"? Isn't a working girl an employed person of the feminine sex? No matter what industry?

You'd get your eyes scratched out if you called the average employed woman a 'working girl'! Aside from the term usually being used to describe hookers - and for some bizarre reason, most regular women don't appreciate being called hookers :) - the average feminist would object to the word 'girl' as being patronising and sexist. An employed person of the female sex would be a 'working woman'.

But for some reason, the sex industry tends to use the word 'girl' to describe sex workers. And for some reason, we don't seem to see it as sexist at all! Maybe it's because the sex industry values youth so highly?

Bango Cheito

04-14-07, 06:27

I personally wish it were easier to find women aged 30+ to hire. Just when they're getting real good at it they seem to lose their value on the open market and all but disappear. In Rio most places actually have an upper age limit of 25, which I think is fucking sad.

I'm personally hesitant to hire anybody who has less than a year's experience.

The Corn Hole

04-27-07, 18:19

Bango,

In Rio at least you should be able to find 30+ working girls all over the place no problem. In Help disco you can find some, and if you are really brave you can stroll over to Villa Mimosa and find some there also. I took out someone from Help who said she was 40. I didn't believe her because she looked much younger than any 40 year old I've ever been with but she isisted she was. You definitly won't find them in Termas but in Rio there are many other options to find what your looking for. In my opinion that's one of the things that seperates Rio from other notorious mongering destinations all over the world. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is available in Rio at ANY price, including providers who are past their shelf dates. There's a very wide divide between Brazil and other other countries when it comes to p4p/sex IMO. But perhaps you're right that it should be easier. I totally understand your preferance for more mature women. My first experience with a woman who was over thirty happened when I was 24. Previously I only shagged women who were my age or younger and was astonished at the contrast between a 37 year old and a 24 year old.

Bango Cheito

04-27-07, 22:10

I was speaking in general worldwide, you're right you can go to Help or VM but the termas are just so much better, and they usually unfortunately have a strict cutoff at age 25.

Picking a girl out of Help just isn't my style... in places like the termas or any stripclub or underground party there is at least some quality control on who is allowed to work there... I just wish that the idea of 'quality' in most people's minds didn't automatically exclude WGs of more than 25 years, that's all!

Metric

05-04-07, 09:17

I just wish that the idea of 'quality' in most people's minds didn't automatically exclude WGs of more than 25 years, that's all!I agree. In fact, I'd have to say that the best pay-sex I've had has been with ladies 26+, and I believe that's because of the experience they have accumulated generally by that time - the younger ones in their early 20s don't have the same level of skill in bed.

Younger WGs may look better, but in a lot of ways I'd rather have a more mature lady who is skilled in the sex arts than a young Penthouse-centrefold type who makes it obvious that she's just going through the motions with no real idea what she's doing.

Rubber Nursey

05-07-07, 03:24

Can I just say, as a 30+ woman, those last few comments were a very nice surprise. Thanks!

Opebo

05-10-07, 20:36

I couldn't agree more about older service providers, men. I have three strong predelictions - 1) anal sex 2) very rough, extended sex, and 3) bareback sex. While I have found these things - delightfully - in sexy 18 year olds to 25 year olds, they are most reliably found in the 30-45 year olds.

Artisttyp

05-10-07, 20:53

The highlight of my last trip to buenos aires was a 45+ woman at a privado who feasted on my butthole while giving my balls a good lickin .

The biggest turn off to me is a beautiful women that is lousy in bed.

Although I must say a cute spinner is a happy medium...very pretty face but not tall enough to be taken seriously by the players..you dont know what your missing.

CarnalPleasures

05-14-07, 20:45

http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/christian.html

There was no law against prostitution for non-Hebrew women. Today prostitution flourishes in Israel and some of the world's most popular brothels are in Tel Aviv. For Hebrew women it was very important to have a husband to have children with to maintain the Hebrew people. It was never considered adultery for a man, married or single, to have sex with a prostitute, as long as she was single (not owned by another man). It was only wrong if it was for the purpose of pagan goddess worship.

Judah saw nothing wrong in hiring a prostitute for the night.

Rahab "the harlot" was praised in Hebrews 11:31 and Jos 6:17 as an example of faith. Rahab was praised because she helped Israelite spies whom she hid and helped escape but the mention of her as "the harlot" wasn't a negative reference .

In Hosea 1:3, God commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute named Gomez. In Hosea 4:15, God said he would not punish the daughters of Israel when they turned to prostitution.

In Hosea 1:3, God commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute named Gomez. In Hosea 4:15, God said he would not punish the daughters of Israel when they turned to prostitution. (Someone Commented: These passages are allegories to Gods relationships with Israel, which at the time wasn't exactly good. The Hosea 4:15 reference I believe is saying that though Israel in general is acting as a harlot, Judah (one tribe of Israel) is not. EG, all of the tribes except Judah are acting as harlots. I think some of this could possibly support the notion that there was clearly a double standard - one for men, and another for women. And it certainly seems to be stating that it's not OK for women to cheat.) And men could always cheat as long as the "other women" was not married (owned by husband).

Other prostitutes mentioned in the Old Testament were the harlot of Gaza, whom Samson visited, and two squabbling prostitutes who asked Solomon to settle a dispute. It is simply reported the fact that they were prostitutes, no big deal, nothing is ever said in condemnation of their profession.

In fact the Hebrew judge Solomon may have done more whoring than judging (Judg 16:1-4), and Jacobs son Judah, mistaking his own veiled daughter-in-law for a harlot, hired her as a prostitute (Gen 38: 13-18). The leader Gilead fathered Jephthah by a prostitute which resulted in Jephthah's half-brothers, when dividing up the inheritance, left Jephthah out (Judg 11: 1-2).

CarnalPleasures

05-19-07, 13:54

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mag/TSmgenB3.html

At the age of twelve, Jesus went down to the Temple of Jerusalem to make his “bar mitswa”, to become a “son of the commandment” like all young Jewish boys.

Marriage

From the age of twelve, to twelve and one half years, a young Jewish girl was able to be promised in marriage. Her father still had rights over her: he was able to sell her as a slave to a Jew for seven years. After the age of twelve and one half, the young girl was able to be married. Only the husband could dismiss her, give her his “writ of renouncement”. The contrary was impossible (Mark 10:12 was written in Rome and reflected the juridical situation of that village.) Adultery was punishable by death. When a woman went out she had to veil herself and she was banned from speaking to men.

The woman had to obey her husband, mill the grain, cook, wash, make the meals, nurse the infants, work the wool, and, in some cases, wash the face and feet of her husband. Polygamy was permitted. After 10 years of married life without child, the husband was permitted to take another woman. The right of divorce was exclusively on the side of the husband. The text from Deuteronomy (Dt. 24:1) was subject to different interpretations between the Hillelites and Shamaites. For Hillel, things that brought displeasure to the husband gave him the right to dismiss the woman. In case of a divorce, the husband had to return to the woman the dowry prescribed in the contract of marriage.

Women had to veil themselves when going outside, so that no one could recognize their face. In the countryside, they were able to take water at the fountain. Women worked in the fields, and sold olives by the door. However, a woman was never allowed to go to the fields alone.

To the young girls was given the duty of feeding and dressing their father, of helping him when going out or returning when they are old, of washing their face and feet. Nevertheless, from the point of view of succession, boys came before the girls. Near the age of 12 and one half, a girl did not have the right to refuse a marriage decided by her father. The father was also able to sell his daughter as a slave. Only a girl older than 12 and one half years of age was autonomous regarding her own marriage.

Bango Cheito

05-20-07, 06:34

The Greeks and Romans were actually very similar in much of this. The only difference is that especially with the Greeks, they waited a little longer before they would get married, and there was no selling a citizen into slavery under those systems.

Egyptian girls in those days got married between 10-12 years. The Inca also got married off very young and by law you HAD to be married to somebody by age 20. Both these civilizations suffered from terribly high incidences of death in childbirth because of women frequently conceiving their first child right at menarche.

I don't know of a single ancient culture that actually outlawed prostitution. Maybe I'm wrong?

CBGBConnisur

05-20-07, 10:28

CarnalPleasures

05-20-07, 19:51

POLYGAMISTS IN THE BIBLE

Abraham, Patriarch and friend of God, at least 1 wife and 3 concubines, Genesis 16:3

David, King of Israel and a man after God's own heart, 12+ wives, 3+ concubines, 1 Samuel 18:27

Jacob, , 2 wives and 2 concubines, Genesis 29

Moses , 2 wives, Exodus 2:21

Others:

Solomon, King of Israel, 700 wives and 300 concubines, 1 Kings 11:3
Saul, King of Israel, at least 2 wives, 1 Samuel 14:50
Abdon, judge of Israel, 40 sons, Judges 12:14
Abijah, godly king of Judah who opposed godless Jereboam, 14 wives, 2 Chronicles 13:21
Elkanah, *, 2 wives, 1 Samuel 1:1-2
(Ephraim), son of Jacob, at least 2 wives during his lifetime, 1 Chronicles 7:20 & 23
Gideon, *, many wives and 72 sons, Judges 8:30, 9:5
(Heman), *, God gave Heman fourteen sons and three daughters., 1Chronicles 25:4-5
Jair, judge of Israel, 30 sons, Judges 10:3-4
Jehoiachin, king of Judah, multiple wives, 2 Kings 24:15
Joash, righteous king of Judah, 2 wives, 2 Chronicles 24:2-3
Josiah, king of Judah, 2 wives, 2 Kings 23:31 & 36
Rehoboam, *, 18 wives and 60 concubines, 2 Chronicles 11:21
Abimelech, King of Gerar, 1 wife and multiple concubines, Genesis 20:17, Genesis 25:1-6
Ashur, 2 wives, 1 Chronicles 4:5
Bethuel, Rebekah's father, 1 wife and 1 concubine, Genesis 22
Caleb (aka Chelubai), *, 1 wife and 2 concubines, 1 Chonicles 2:18-19,46-48
Eliphaz, *, 1 wife and 1 concubine, Genesis 36:12
Esau, *, 4 wives, Genesis 26:34; Genesis 36:2-3, Genesis 28:9
(Hezron), Chelubai's father, at least 2 wives during his lifetime, 1 Chronicles 2:9 & 21

(Ishmael), son of Abraham, 12 sons, Genesis 25
Isshiah, son of Izrahiah, many wives and children, 1 Chronicles 7:3-4 Genesis 30
Jerahmeel, son of Hezron, 2 wives, 1 Chronicles 2:25-26
Jehoram, king of Israel, multiple wives, 2 Chronicles 21:12-14
Joel, son of Izrahiah, many wives and children, 1 Chronicles 7:3-4
(Joktan), ancestor of Abraham, 13 known sons, Genesis 10:26-29; 1 Chronicles 1:20-23
Lamech, Pre-flood descendant of Cain, 2 wives, Genesis 4:19
Manasseh, at least one concubine, 1 Chronicles 7:14
Mered, 2 or 3 wives, 1 Chronicles 4:17-18
Michael, son of Izrahiah, many wives and children, 1 Chronicles 7:3-4 Numbers 12:1
Nahor, 1 wife and 1 concubine, Genesis 22:20-24
Obadiah, son of Izrahiah, many wives and children, 1 Chronicles 7:3-4, 2 Samuel 3:7, 2 Samuel 12:8
Shaharaim, a Benjamite, 2 divorced wives and at least 1 not divorced, 1 Chronicles 8:8
Shimei, a Simeonite, 16 sons and 6 daughters, 1 Chronicles 4:27
Simeon, son of Jacob, at least 2 wives, Genesis 46:10
(Shashak), a Benjamite, 11 sons, 1 Chronicles 8:22-25, Song 6:8, 2 Kings 10:1
(Terah), Abram's father, 2 but not necessarily simultaneously, Genesis 11:26*, Genesis 20:12
Xerxes, king of Persia and husband of Esther, wives and concubines, Esther 2*, Ezekiel 23
Zedekiah, king of Judah, multiple wives, Jeremiah 38:19-23
Zerubbabel, exiled heir of Judah, 2 wives, 1 Chronicles 3:19-20
(Ziba), *, 15 sons, 2 Samuel 9:10
(Zopha), descendant of Asher, 11 sons, 1 Chronicles 7
Ahab, evil king of Israel, wives given to Ahab and 70 sons, 1 Kings 20:1-9, 2 Kings 10:1
Belshazzar, King of Babylon, wives and concubines, Daniel 5:2
Ben-Hadad, King of Aram, wives of Ahab, 1 Kings 20:1-9

Rubber Nursey

06-01-07, 04:29

mmbmmb,
for a long time, many countries in the world have worked to clearly separate church and state. countries like mine even got to the point where religion was forcibly removed from our everyday lives eg. religious instruction was removed from government schools, 'morality' clauses were removed from things like council planning guidelines and the word 'god' was removed from oaths (you can choose to swear on the bible or swear on your honour in court).

but now, talk of 'family values' is sneaking back into every speech. almost every country has a conservative party in power. the example you gave about the guy dating a single mother is exactly the sort of return to 'traditional families' i was talking about. why would they want to 'hide' the fact that she has a child? because it points to her being divorced or being promiscuous or - basically - not being a virgin before entering her current relationship. and chastity is a religious value. as you said, they would 'hide' it if she had been a hooker as well and that would be done for exactly the same reason.

great observation on the tinky winky thing, though - if the kids didn't know what gay was before, they sure will now, thanks to the very same morons trying to 'protect' them from it. :)

bango,
i knew the legal status of sex work in brazil, but didn't know it had come about via the 'unconstitutional' angle. that's very interesting! hopefully that means brazil won't be hit by the fundamentalist wave any time soon. although, like you said, people have already tried to shoot it down and constitutions can be re-written....more than that, sex industry legislation can be re-written.

sex work itself (the act of sex for money) is generally not illegal in australia for pretty much the same reason. we don't have a people's constitution, so it's not quite as black and white as in brazil, but control over our sex lives is a can of worms our governments have generally avoided opening. however, they control every single aspect surrounding prostitution - where we can advertise, where we can work, who we can work for - to the point where even though it's not illegal to be a hooker, you don't have any legal way to practice it. if the brazilian government really wanted to tackle prostitution, they could probably do it in the same way.

in oz, nsw decriminalised prostitution in the 70s. for many years, sydney has been looked to as 'best practice' for dealing with the sex industry (and for sex worker rights). 30 years later, thanks to an impending election, the nsw government has just drafted legislation to be introduced to parliament in a couple of weeks, which seeks to criminalise sections of the nsw sex industry.

as for the rest of the country, tasmania criminalised their entire sex industry last year. western australia is in the process of drafting laws to legalise parts of the industry, with the primary objective of decreasing brothel numbers and assisting sex workers to leave the industry. victoria and queensland are both in the process of reviewing their legalised sex industries because legalisation hasn't achieved similar abolitionist aims (surprise, surprise). south australia has recently started using 100 year old consorting laws to further criminalise their already illegal environment.

it's frightening.

Bango Cheito

06-01-07, 06:43

Yup, you guys have the same problems as the USA and Canada has with the religious fuckwads.

I don't see it happening soon in Brazil. Technically operating a brothel is illegal, but the legal definition of a brothel is very narrow and allows for safe clean legal incall in droves :P Certainly not all of the population is happy about it obviously.

It's real ironic because 30 years ago Brazil was ran by a military dictatorship and Colombia had a Concordat with the Vatican under the 1892 Constitution which in some ways read like it was from 1492 :P They also had some "National Security" measures that severely increased police powers and curtailed civil liberties, which lead to the BIG problems they had in the 80s. Not to mention Argentina Urugay and Chile were both under dictatorships as well.

Now the shoe is on the other foot. Center-left progressive Congresses under new Constitutions is now the norm in South America, meanwhile we here in the North seem to be in a race to see who can go back to the Middle Ages the quickest!

SE Asia Joe

06-01-07, 08:39

Most societies look down on prostitution, even in countries where it is out in the open, prostitutes hold a very low standing in their societies, it is just that some countries have different ways to deal with the problem.
Places I know -
Japan - BJ's are completely legal for sale/advertised/touted - but FS is illegal
Hong Kong (still essentially using the British common law) - Prostitution per se is LEGAL - but living off the proceeds of, touting/pimping, soliciting are definite no-no's
P R China - very illegal but very tolerated (just about) with periodical "strike hard' campaigns associated with holidays, or if some big shot is coming or it becomes too rampant. And oh - the variety - in services, gals, venues, prcing... choices choices!
Philippines - No way, we're Catholics! but HEY, we're also the fun loving Filipinos!
Thailand - We're the all wise and tolerant Buddhists - we understand needs - sexual, economics, power - and thus go ahead - but please just don't be too blatant OK?
Indonesia - We Muslims will castrate and flog all of you - but hey if you furreners want to have some fun - OK. and locals - hey youse guys also got needs and we've got too many poor people - so let the fun continue.
Australia/USA/UK - hey you guys are the expert here!
SE Asia Joe

CarnalPleasures

06-02-07, 13:18

In ancient times girls were sold off as slave girls by their own fathers to other men (Exodus 21:7). In Genesis, Chapter 29, Jacob, the patriarch and founding father of Israel, agrees to work for Laban for seven years in exchange for Labans daughter Rachel.

Samson, while he had the Spirit of the Lord in him (Judges 15:14), slept with a harlot (Judges 16:1), while he had God's Holy Spirit in him! He is not rebuked or punished for this act, and neither is she. Some claim that Samson did not sleep with a harlot, but saw an inn-keeper, or one who keeps a house for the entertainment of travellers, and he simply slept there. But there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation. Firstly, the word "harlot" here is the same Hebrew word zanah used to describe *****s throughout scripture. Secondly, the Septuagint confirms that "harlot" is the correct word in this verse. And thirdly, Samson could not have simply slept at an inn until morning, because scripture shows that he only stayed at this place until midnight (Judges 16:3).

Sasha Coffee

06-07-07, 05:08

I don't know what to say except that prostitution is a victimless crime a financial transaction between two consenting adults (hopefully adults)

While the world rallies against the degenerate morals of prostitutes the catholic church covers its horrific legacy of child molestation by its preists.

Third world countries regularly circumsise women to stop them being promisicious. The middle east still treat women like they belong to the dark ages. There are still women in every country who are beaten and killed by partners and ex partners.

Women still regualarly earn less than their male counterparts for the same job.

I firmly believe that until the churches and governements can clean up their own backyards they can keep their noses out of my bedroom.

Mock A Bee

06-07-07, 06:39

Prostitution is typically thought of as a victim-less crime, however there is still a lot of sexual slavery going on.

Granted in China, there are perhaps millions of girls who resort to prostitution on their own free will, but that is because there are not enough jobs to go around for so many unskilled laborers. Not exactly victimless. How many girls can honestly say "I want to be a prostitute when I grow up!"? not that many. How would you like to suck on as many cocks as you can per day (and risk catching a venereal disease) to make ends meet?

South Korea is an example where unsophisticated girls from the countryside can't keep up with sophisticated city life and ring up the charge card to the hilt. To pay it off they take jobs as hostesses not knowing that they are prime targets for sexual slavery.

The San Francisco Chronicle ran a multipart story on this, because a lot of the Korean massage parlors in San Francisco are filled with sex slaves from South Korea.

These girls are not victimless by any means. These unsophisticated country bumpkins are completely taken advantage of.

MAB

Sasha Coffee

06-08-07, 01:34

I agree with you on your point that there is still alot of sexual slavery in the undeveloped and developing world. Its very sad and yes it does make prostitution a crime with a victim.

Since I have never travelled to Asia or China I wouldn't comment on the state of their sex industry. Although in saying this I don't have my head in the sand either. I have worked with many Chinese and Thai prostitutes and most of them were very nice girls but with the language barrier I am guilty of not ever asking how they entered this trade.

I'm not sure but I think there is something in the Hague Convention regarding prostitution and the slavery of women for this. I'm sure someone on the forum would know more about this than me. I suppose though it really is up to each individual government and citizen to change their country. There are many places that people both female and male are taken advantage of, you only have to look at the people traders that try to get people into Australia illegally.

Its a sad old world we live in and as long as their are people trying to escape poverty, political injustice, war and lots of other things there will be people who are prepared to take advantage of their desperation.

CarnalPleasures

06-08-07, 06:07

All humans are born autonomous and have the right to sexual self-determination. Prostitution is a human right, all women should have the right to govern their body, and do what they want with their bodies. Women and men should have the right to sell and buy sexual services. Putting people to jail for having sexual relationships consitutes a crime against humanity.

Rubber Nursey

06-08-07, 06:51

Mock A Bee,

It's this lack of distinction between sex work and sex slavery in the minds of the public, that makes life so very hard for sex worker rights activists.

Sex work *IS* a victimless crime - it is simply an agreement between two consenting adults to provide sexual services for payment.

Sex slavery by definition, does not have the consent of both parties - therefore, it is NOT sex work. Children are also considered unable to give informed consent, therefore child prostitution is NOT sex work. Sex slavery and child prostitution are CRIMES and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Claims that poverty, etc, 'force' people to 'resort' to prostitution just serve to confuse the issue. If a person is tricked, conned, or forced with violence to enter the sex industry, then they are victims of crime. But being forced by circumstance alone, does not make you a 'victim'.

To use your own examples:
In China, where there are not enough jobs to go around, would you consider those who are 'forced' to work in factories to be victims?
How many people can honestly say "I want to be a cleaner when I grow up"? How would you like to scrub as many toilets as you can per day to make ends meet?

Speaking of which...more people are trafficked into affluent countries and forced into performing domestic services, than sex work. Does that make the hospitality/domestic services industry inherently dangerous? Should all maid services be closely regulated - or criminalised - to protect those few people that may be trafficked into the industry against their will?

As Sasha said, while there are desperate people in the world, there will always be someone willing to take advantage of them. However, that is very different to someone who, perhaps, compromises their own personal morals or puts up with doing a job they hate, in order to escape poverty. The difference is consent. Regardless of WHY a sex worker chooses to enter prostitution, the fact remains that they CHOSE to do it. Whether they did it happily or only as a last resort, it was still their decision.