The Morality of Prostitution

[Cash Works]

It was interesting to watch, I guess. I still can't believe that guy who paid $20,000 to spend one night with that MILF with the fake tan at the Bunny Ranch. Then again, most of my American buddies can't believe I pay $7 USD for girls in South America, either.

Yeah, every time I hear stories or see shows about Nevada brothel's I can't help thinking the customers would be better off spending the money on a week in Rio or Bangkok, or (etc.).

[DJ FourMoney]

If anyone wants to watch the 20/20 "Prostitution in America" episode, it's now on YouTube, here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq5IM_Ur5FQ

It's about two hours total, to see the rest of it check out the related videos section to the right.

I've never *****mongered in the U.S., so I don't really have much to say about the show; I'm not sure what to think, to be honest. It was interesting to watch, I guess. I still can't believe that guy who paid $20,000 to spend one night with that MILF with the fake tan at the Bunny Ranch. Then again, most of my American buddies can't believe I pay $7 USD for girls in South America, either.

I guess I'll never understand what the big deal is with prostitution in the U.S., and I was born and raised here!

Many things to do with American culture don't make any sense...

How come many progressive European countries don't wage war and have legal prostitution and yet the largest nation has wars for profit and illegal prostitution?

How about its understood in the military that you can "monger" without official consent and no legal recourse for women impregnated by American soldiers?

Even that's a double standard, because if your in the Army, married and get caught dating or fathering another child while stationed elsewhere on the earth, you can be discharged, while the Marines have no such recourse at all.

I saw that 20/20 show, typical media sensationalizing a social issue that nobody really cares about anymore, since 30% of our population was born in another country...

[DJ FourMoney]

Yeah, every time I hear stories or see shows about Nevada brothel's I can't help thinking the customers would be better off spending the money on a week in Rio or Bangkok, or (etc.).

That's how I felt after visiting Shari's and being quoted $700 for no rush, unlimited positions and I doubt anal. $1500 for all night, same rules.

I spent roughly $500US between several visits to the Ero Center in Frankfurt and one visit each to FKK Oase, FKK Miami (do not recommend!) and FKK Palace.

[Rio Joe]

Conventional broadcast television has a vested interest in spinning sex stories in a very conservative way. They are heavily regulated by the Federal Communications Administration and influenced by a myriad of conservative factions. The broadcast networks are kind of caught between a rock and a hard place. They'd love to win back some of their viewers from cable, but they can't be as titillating without raising eyebrows at the FCC. ABC News did a similar special on the porn industry last year. One of the girls they profiled is a very cute, "All American" cheerleader type (former amateur ice-skater/Olympic hopeful, actually), Sunny Lane. The show included footage of her at the Bunny Ranch, where she occasionally works. She seemed perfectly normal; her parents, however, were bizarre with a capital B. They "manage" her career (both porn and prostitution), and expressed unadulterated pride in everything "she's accomplished." I love what many Brazilian working girls have accomplished in my bed, but I'd be a little weirded out if I heard their parents bragging about it.

Ironically, Fox (broadcast, not the News Channel) may be the biggest envelope-pusher as far as raunch, and it's owned by Rupert Murdoch, one of the Republican Party's main financial backers. (Of course, to the Religious Right there's little difference between him and Larry Flynt.)

[Bango Cheito]

I just read an interview with pornstar Monica Mattos from Brazil. There's a big controversy around her right now because she did a lot of mainstream porn and also did a lot of extreme stuff, and a lot of her fans for some goddamn reason got REALLY upset about the extreme stuff. There was some vomit, some GS, and some sex with older women, as well as one scene of her sucking off a horse.

Her parents apparently are happy with what she does. When you consider the possible outcomes of your life when you are on the wrong side of the social divide as she probably was, I don't think she did half badly myself. I'd certainly rather my daughter were a porn star than some poor fucking moron working for minimum wage!

[Rio Joe]

I just read an interview with pornstar Monica Mattos from Brazil. Is the interview avail online? I'd love to read it. Also, do you know who she works for now in the States? Is she with an adult talent agency in Los Angeles?

[Bango Cheito]

I'd have to find it again, but be advised it's entirely in Portuguese :P
I dunno how much work she's done or will do in the US, she's done SOME but once again she can't work without an interpreter because she speaks NO English.

[Rio Joe]

I'd have to find it again, but be advised it's entirely in Portuguese :PSe a entrevista estiver inteiramente no português, isto não será um problema. Se ela precisar de um tradutor nos USA, talvez posso oferecer os meus serviços.

[Rubber Nursey]

...Several times Sawyer responded to a statement from this high-end pro with follow-ups like; "Surely you can't mean ...", "I find it hard to believe ...", I don't think most women would feel ..."
I saw a doco the other night called 'The Escort Agency' from the UK. It was the strangest thing to watch - I have no idea what the doco-maker's motivation was, or what point he was trying to make.

It had some awesome interviews with working girls and every single one of them talked about sex work as their 'chosen career', expressed pride in themselves and their work, laughed and joked about different sexual experiences, etc. But the journo kept messing with the tone of the doco with all his voiceovers.

One bit focused on a mature worker called Jenny, who spent a good 10 minutes giggling and chatting excitedly about herself and her clients and how much she loved her job, while she was getting ready to do an all-night booking. As the cab drops her off and the camera watches her trotting across the road to the hotel, the voiceover says (in a low, ominous tone) "Although Jenny seems to be excited about the booking, I can't help but wonder what tonight really has in store for her". In that one sentence, he basically negated every positive thing she'd said in the previous 10 minutes.

Most of the girls' comments were followed by 'But you can't seriously be saying...', etc. He even laughed at them on occasion. It's amazing the lengths journos will go to ensure the desired message gets across to the audience - even when they get really honest, positive messages from sex workers, they somehow manage to manipulate it into doom and gloom.

[Funfor Females]

I had a conversation earlier today in Bahrain which I have had a number of times before. The subject continues to perplex me.

I lunched with a chap who believed deeply that he was in the process of "Rescuing" a PRC WG of his aquaintance.

He didn't use the word 'Rehabilitating', but I know that is what he has in mind.

He claims to have fallen passionately in love and, I think sincerely, believes that the girl has too.

There is talk of taking her out of the WG scene to become a wifely creature who he will be able to take to social events, do the shopping with and, I suppose eventually, marry and take back to England.

The deal seems to be that he will keep her in the manner to which she has become accustomed (Or aspires to) and she will be faithful to him until judgement day. I guess the economics work for her, and perhaps for him, because in some societies this arrangement is called marriage.

But is it real? And is it sustainable with a former WG who he has met as a monger? I don't know.

Does anybody have any direct and reliable experience of "Rescuing" a WG?
Did it work out?
Do we know tales of others who have succeeded or failed in this regard?
What do we think?

Maybe this is a topic worthy of opening a new thread, I don't know. But I remain uncertain of what I think on the subject.

Any thoughts?

[ManonsanBoy]

I know a few friends who strike relationships with WG. Almost all disintegrate sooner or later, especially if they met in a WG/client basis.

I also have a friend who found out that his wife was a WG a while ago. That marriage survived, just but my friend now come mongering with me. The wife knows but "accepts" it.

Rent their bodies and their company and move on is what I say. That way, the contract is clear.

[Bango Cheito]

Valeu cara, encontrei a entrevista....

http://botecosujo.********.com/2008/01/monica-mattos-estrela-porn-minha-me.html

N.B. she says she hasn't done programs in 2 years, BUT if you follow the hyperlink on that very text it shows she's full of it :P


Se a entrevista estiver inteiramente no português, isto não será um problema. Se ela precisar de um tradutor nos USA, talvez posso oferecer os meus serviços.

[Chocha Monger]

How about its understood in the military that you can "monger" without official consent and no legal recourse for women impregnated by American soldiers?

That isn't true. About 3 years ago there were some sensational stories about American soldiers mongering in South Korea. Of course, according to the media all of the prostitutes were trafficked "sex slaves" from the Philippines and other locations who were "tricked" into going to South Korea to work in the entertainment business. Some soldier's were even "rescuing" Filipina prostitutes and taking them home. Eventually, the military got tired of being portrayed as a sponsor of prostitution in the media so they developed regulations making it a crime under the Uniform Code of Military Justice for a service member to monger. Here is a memo on the military's policy concerning mongering in South Korea http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/command_policies/USFK%20CPL12.pdf

As for "no recourse" for women impregnated by American soldiers, that is not exactly true either. Upon a female foreign national's claim of being impregnated the accused soldier can expect to be confined to base pending the outcome of an investigation to verify her claims. He can expect to pay her medical expenses until she gives birth if he acknowledges having sex with her. When she gives birth and DNA testing is conducted if he is the father then his housing allowance will go to her because the child is now his dependent.

Anyway, there are many pregnancy scams involving US soldiers stationed abroad including local women who pay pregnant women to provide samples for pregnancy testing. These women literally hunt young GIs for their purposes. Many succeed winning that coveted marriage certificate, visa to the US and military dependent ID card. Occasionally, some lose the game. However, these women are very determined and know very well what they're getting into. It is unlikely that a GI would come into contact with naive innocent minded women because his geographical range is largely limited to the area surrounding the installation and women living in this area know the game very well. The women playing this game can be very convincing in their claims of having been taken advantage of even after fucking the entire garrison and having a few kids. One becomes less convinced after seeing the game being played up close.

[CBGBConnisur]

European countries tolerated prostitution for ages, even during times when they were not "progressive". Prostitution was legal in Nazi Germany. In those days social welfare did not exist, you had no job, you had no money, you had no money, you had no food to eat.
I don't want to get into a political discussion but I would not be surprised if Europeans began to become militaristic again, especially considering the way the US is losing its power and prestige around the world, if you don't think the American image is taking a big hit, you are living in a bubble. Living overseas has made me keenly aware of how negatively people worldwide perceive the US these days, and it does matter, because much of the American economy is driven by perception.
Spending more time overseas has also brought me to the realization as to how similar people are regardless of where on Earth they are. Most European countries "tolerate" prostitution, its not really legal. In fact, many countries place restrictions on the trade. Street prostitution in Germany is completely illegal and is a punishable offence, soliciting a street prostitute in Australia is a good way to spend a night in jail but brothels are legal almost everywhere else in the country. Prostitutes in these countries live on the fringes of society as they do in the US.

[Raj Funloving]

Dear all,

Just a two cents of mine of this topic. I belive that prostitution should be legalised by all the countries. I know some of my fellow brothers would argue that if it is given status of "moraly accepted profession" by countries on this planet it will create social hevoc but I believe otherwise. Right from ages, when hindu kings and than mughal badshah used to visit their private brothels to recent times people do visit brothes may be for quenching thrust of basic necessity called sex or just for fun but its accepted (even in countries where flesh trade strictly is prohibited people do visit discreetly operated sex shopsor at least they visit other neighbouring countries where flesh trade is available)fact that flesh profession does exist in each society. Socities who have legalised sex trade people of society will feel more secure while visiting sex shops than the society where its absolute banned. Banning prostitution is like suppressing one's basic necessity of getting laid down. It will prevent crimes like rapping girls etc. If prositution is legally accepted as "profession"their will way for the people those who do not have wife or girlfriend or those who belive that they are not confident enough to win heart of a girl but they can visit a sex shop and quench their thurst for getting laid.

Righht now I m not into discussion whether one should or can get married to WG and subsequent social consequences but IMHO, prositution be legalised as normal profession.

Humbly two cents of mine on this topic,

Be safe

Cheers

Raj

[Rio Joe]

I belive that prostitution should be legalised by all the countries. It's such a cliche, but it really is a "victimless" crime -- if (and it's a big IF) handled right. In which case it couldn't even be considered a "crime."

I used to work for a non-profit in NY that backed then-Mayor Giuliani's quality-of-life initiatives, including his efforts to relegate strip clubs and sex shops to specific areas. The key legal arguments were "time/place" restrictions and "secondary effects" -- in other words, strip clubs have a constitutional right to exist, but they can't operate wherever they want, or become magnets for drug-dealing and other kinds of criminal behavior.

I think the same goes for prostitution: Adults have just as much right to engage in consensual carnal commerce as they do to engage in pre-marital sex where no money changes hands. Just as long as their activity doesn't harm the community. ("Harm", of course is subjective, and a religious person will define it differently than an atheist. That's why I think each community in the US should be allowed to decide on their own whether they want prostitution. Nevada uses a system like this; some counties allow it, others don't.)

As far as marrying a WG, why the hell not? Obviously, depends on the girl. (Of course as a commitment-phobe, I think I'd prefer a WG to a non-pro, because when the time comes for me to run, I'll feel much less guilty.) Divorce rates in general are so high as it is, it's hard to imagine a WG being such a bad risk. Is a relatively level-headed WG a worse bet than a flaky non-pro? How about a non-pro "with a past" (i.e., party girl, drug user, etc.)? WGs are like stocks: Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future behavior.

[Ekliges Lauern]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/10/AR2008041003486.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2008041003484

Make me ashamed to be an American when I read this article.

Once in a while, I question my own morality participating in the "hobby". I hobby mostly in countries where it is legal. I just can't see the point of destroying ~120 womens lives for a small potatoes prosecution.

[Gedanken]

just typing this out blind drunk, trying to be careful as regards the 'no chatroom style' rule. please don't take offense at anything i say, this is just my personal take, and is obviously going to be warped by my own experiences and background etc.

anyway, i've been mongering abroad just the once (in poland last year, planning a second trip soon to africa), though before then i'd seen girls in my own country i guess maybe a dozen times at most. i'm not exactly uber experienced.

radler hit it on the head: "once in a while, i question my own morality participating in the "hobby"." how honest of him. haven't we all? surely?

how could we not have, i guess. when the girl leaves the room, or you've left hers - or even as you're cumming - along gush the panic-stricken thoughts: "god, is this what i am? what have i done to her? is this really what my life has come to? i should give her more money, that's the least i can do..." i'm only going here on what i thought after my first time; the more i do pay for sex, the less i care, which i find pretty scary, to be honest... i'm not saying i will ever be totally immune - rather i will never be able to be totally immune, i'm not a psychopath, after all - from these kinds of thoughts, but i just seem to be hardening up, and a part of me is dying over time. just my personal experiences, here, as i said.

i mean, you just have to read a few reports like those of the us state department: "few activities are as brutal and damaging to people as prostitution. field research in nine countries concluded that 60 to 75 percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70 to 95 percent were physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans and victims of state-organized torture." there are the effects of my 'hobby' laid bare, minus the layers of self-pity, self-delusion and other means of self-justification.

that's the kind of person i am, when all is stripped away; at least as far as i can see. that is what i have now helped to sustain, taken advantage of; it's what my money and actions have contributed to.

the thing which in some ways bothers me the most is my almost boundless capacity to just simply ignore what i have done, and fully plan to do again. to be sure, this capacity is amply aided by the fact that i don't really see first-hand the effects it has on these girls (i'm typing safely behind my computer in a rich, western country, i can't even remember what some of the girls i've seen even look like, let alone what they did today and how they feel over an extended period of time).

some arguments against mongerers are fairly easily dealt with. for example, the idea that it's worse to see a girl in a poor country as compared my own rich one. that argument is easy enough to refute (making obvious assumptions): it's not how much i pay that matters, it's how much they earn, that is important. $20 may not be much in the us, say, but in some places that's a week's salary. just the same as $400 for an hour is a week's salary in the us, say.

merely minimising the money i spend is a quite separate issue from the real-terms income these girls receive. simple as that, as far as i can see.

to be honest, i think for many of us that is all that mongering comes down to: minimising our expenditure. but minimising for us is not minimising for them.

again: it's what the money means to them, not us, which is important.

but at the end of it all, i just keep wondering (i've never met another mongerer): how many of us really choose this lifestyle? sure, a few perhaps do, out of sheer sadism or whatever. every group of people has it's so-called 'lunatic fringe'. but how many of us were just born too ugly or too shy, or had this abuse happen to them or that bad experience which snowballed beyond their control... i don't know. all i know is that my life is shit, their life is shit, and so we seem made for each other. that's no justification, i know, but it's all i have to hold on to sometimes.

here's to mongering, the only thing which gives me anything to look forward to in this uncaring, selfish planet. in an ideal world, maybe some future which awaits humanity, mongering won't exist anymore. for the moment, it's the only thing which keeps me going.

sorry if i offended anyone, as i said at the start, i am drunk and these are only my personal feelings, not gospel.

[Bango Cheito]

wow dude, if you don't want to pay someone for sex dont fucking do it. but feeling sorry for the girls is lame and pathetic. it's more insulting to them than a slap in the face.

i guarantee you any of these girls are far more likely to be raped or abused in any way by their own relatives/boyfriends/spouses etc. than by any of their clients.

[Chocha Monger]

gedanken,

perhaps you should get married and spend the rest of your life supporting a woman who may or may not have sex with you. if you feel so bad about mongering then don't do it. you might need some professional psychiatric help.


how could we not have, i guess. when the girl leaves the room, or you've left hers - or even as you're cumming - along gush the panic-stricken thoughts: "god, is this what i am? what have i done to her? is this really what my life has come to? i should give her more money, that's the least i can do..."
that is some deep shit man! seriously, when i'm cumming the only thing i'm thinking about is how awesome it feels and how soon i'm going get in another round. cumming is the pinnacle of pleasure not the abyss of despair, at least for normal people. however, in some twisted way, you have an intriguing dark side. in the middle of cumming you seem to be struck by abject terror yet your thoughts are on how you can make it better for her financially. if i were to take a wild guess i'd say you were a u.s. congressman, most likely a republican conservative.

paying for pussy seems to disturb you but you do it anyway. why? are you ugly, fat, short, bald, blind, lame, geriatric or smelly? don't you have options for sex with nice pretty girls who are willing to give it to you for free? i really just don't get why you're out mongering when you seem so set against it.

i mean, you just have to read a few reports like those of the us state department: "few activities are as brutal and damaging to people as prostitution. field research in nine countries concluded that 60 to 75 percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70 to 95 percent were physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans and victims of state-organized torture." actually, marriage is probably more brutal and damaging. have you looked at the statistics on domestic violence or divorce with the horrific custody battles?

anyway, if you still insist on going out and paying a girl for her pussy, pay her 50% of your income. that is what a married man pays and no one questions his morality.

[Gedanken]

Chocha Monger:

All far comments, just pretty drunk. Nah, I'm over 6' tall, slim-build, average looks, in my twenties. Promise I won't bother people with this sort of depressing nonsense again.

Could a mod delete my offending post?

In my defense, I was rather drunk after a bad week. Mongering's OK, I guess I wouldn't do it otherwise. Sex with hot girls for little financial cost to myself ain't so bad really.

Gedanken

[Chocha Monger]

Chocha Monger:

All far comments, just pretty drunk. Nah, I'm over 6' tall, slim-build, average looks, in my twenties. Promise I won't bother people with this sort of depressing nonsense again.

Could a mod delete my offending post?

In my defense, I was rather drunk after a bad week. Mongering's OK, I guess I wouldn't do it otherwise. Sex with hot girls for little financial cost to myself ain't so bad really.

Gedanken
You can ask Jackson to delete it.

[Szandor Lavey]

Hey Adler,

That's what happens when you have a country that doesn't use logic to make laws, and instead bases it on christian values that are anti-human. At the end of the day the human animal always comes out.

Hail Satan

[Jelly Donut]

i mean, you just have to read a few reports like those of the us state department: "few activities are as brutal and damaging to people as prostitution. field research in nine countries concluded that 60 to 75 percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70 to 95 percent were physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans and victims of state-organized torture."



it would be interesting to meet the people who do this research and talk with them. i have a lot of ideas about who they are and how they think about things. i'd be surprised, if i were surprised by them.

do you think there is any difference between prostitutes and non-prostitutes in terms of the numbers of bad things that happen to them in the countries surveyed?

also, it would also be interesting to meet the political appointees who vet this research and decide what will and will not end up on the state department website. i suspect they are unimaginative little weasels, as this is the case between 70 and 95 percent of the time.

have you spent any time talking to women in the sex industry? i have a lot of experience in this field. i'd give myself a phd in the area, i've certainly paid enough for it.

it's true. it's not a cake walk hanging out with me, but i don't leave any posttraumatic stress disorder in my wake. and at least a couple of these girls would tell you, i'm one of the best things that ever happend to them. they might even be telling the truth. one of these girls seems to be convinced i saved her mother's life. honestly, i believe her more than i buy those state department numbers.

maybe it is true. maybe these woman have horrible, depressing lives. if they do, to the extent that they do, i'm a few hours of easy money. i'm a free meal. the only thing i torture is the local language, something i've found most of these girls find funny. i don't treat them much differently than a 'normal' date, we both get what we want.

anyway, don't believe everything the government tells you. it's not like the government is in the truth business.

[Gangles]

I was interested to read the post from Gedanken and others about prostitution, and reports by the State Department..

I am Australian, but I have lived for 4 years in the US, so I have some experience of both. My remarks are based onfacts from Australia, but I believe apply equally to the USA.

Claims of trauma to prostitutes is a common accusation by western females, and echoes a similar assault by an eminent group of feminists intent on shutting down the bar trade in the Philippines.

They were promptly reminded of the hypocrisy of their claims.

There are more prostitutes per head of population in Australia, and most western countries, than there are in Thailand, or the Philippines.

In Australia you can get sex in any form you want, hetero, homo, sadism, bondage, young boys, young girls, phone sex, lapdances, bucks parties, anything. Almost anywhere, almost any time.

Every local paper, including my own little town, has between a half and full page of advertisements by prostitutes every day. Brothels are legal. In fact, if a developer wants to open a brothel next door to your house, as long as the legal requirements are satisfied, you have no recourse.

The worlds largest organised sex tour is in Australia. It is called the gay and lesbian festival, and it is promoted by government.

As for claims that prostitutes are disadvantaged girls, forced into prostitution by poverty, read the ever increasing stream of autobiographies written by western prostitutes. They were not impoverished, they entered the business to make more money than they ever could at a regular job.

Most bar girls in the Philippines and Thailand are there by choice. Try to talk them out of the bar. You are wasting your time. Their job is fun, they have lots of friends, they are doing something that they like and are being paid for it, they work in a workplace which is dedicated to fun and entertainment, they feel powerful, they feel glamorous and sexy when they are dancing on stage, admired by lots of men.

We have all heard the saying - "you can take the girl out of the bar, but you cannot take the bar out of the girl". We have many cases in my own little town of filipina bar girls married to respectable men, yet the girls go back to prostitution on the side.

So before the State Department, or any other western NGO goes on a crusade to fix up prostitution in a developing country, remind them to fix the same problem in their own counrtry first.

Pure hypocrisy.

Pirate Pete.

[Szandor Lavey]

I gaurantee some of the political appointees who dish out this so called research, have partaken in some mongering themselves at one point or another.

Hail Satan

[Bango Cheito]

Sure, lots of sex workers were abused as children, but lots of women PERIOD were abused as children. I seriously have never been intimately involved with a woman who WASNT, OUT of the sex industry.

OTOH I know plenty of sex workers who had a childhood like the Cleavers, but took to sex work because of the flexible hours or the money or whatever positive side it has to it. As a matter of fact, many of them love to fuck with their clients at times. You gotta be careful taking too seriously what a stripper or brothel girl etc tells you WHILE SHES WORKING especially. Their job is to "close" on you so they will say whatever they think will get them there. OR sometimes they just like fucking with people's heads :P

[Rubber Nursey]

have i told you lately that i love you, bango? :)

those statistics being bandied about by the us state department are an absolute crock. they're based almost exclusively on surveys of street-based sex workers working in illegal environments, who are already in contact with drug/sexual assault/mental health support services (it's through those services that the researchers gain access to them).

it's like asking a group of women in a domestic violence shelter whether they've ever experienced violence, then applying the findings to all women. nobody in their right mind would take that sort of study seriously ...but it's apparently ok to do it with prostitution research. they 'research' only the most vulnerable sex workers and then apply the findings to the entire sex industry. there ain't no happy and healthy german fkk girls, or english callgirls, or australian brothel workers represented in that research!

mind you, that doesn't change the fact that those women who were surveyed are experiencing horrendous levels of violence and abuse. the us state department needs to pull its head out of its arse and realise that if they decriminalised prostitution, those violence and sexual assault rates would plummet. sex work is not dangerous. having no police protection and access to legal recourse is dangerous. media and movies portraying sex workers as 'willing' victims of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and violence is dangerous. judges giving lighter sentences to people who murder sex workers is dangerous. sucking c*ck for cash is not.

and there is no such thing as 'a prostitute'. every sex worker has her (or his) own story. some stories are glamorous and exciting, others are desperate and heartbreaking. most are 'just another day at the office'. but bango is right - regardless of our personal circumstances, it's incredibly insulting to suggest we need pity or compassion or 'help'. it strips us of all agency and autonomy, questions our intelligence, robs us of our dignity. we're not starving children or cancer patients. we're independent women who charge (on average) nearly half a week's wage for an hour of our time. it really doesn't matter whether we love our job or hate it. it's the job we chose.

if you really want to 'help' the sex workers you visit, pay them a fair price and treat them with kindness and respect. even better, lobby your local politicians for decriminalisation and speak up whenever you see sex workers' (or clients') rights being violated.

[Bango Cheito]

I guess there's no reason to be shocked, this preverse mentality is getting more and more pervasive in modern societies. We can manage to guilt trip over the absolute STUPIDEST of things.

I was going to make the analogy of people going and eating a hot dog at a hot dog stand and then feeling all sorry for the pigs running around without lips and assholes and having to puke it back up. But THERE ARE PEOPLE ACTUALLY LIKE THAT when I come to think of it. :P

[DJ FourMoney]

I guess there's no reason to be shocked, this preverse mentality is getting more and more pervasive in modern societies. We can manage to guilt trip over the absolute STUPIDEST of things.

I was going to make the analogy of people going and eating a hot dog at a hot dog stand and then feeling all sorry for the pigs running around without lips and assholes and having to puke it back up. But THERE ARE PEOPLE ACTUALLY LIKE THAT when I come to think of it. :P

Yep the hypocrisy runs like a 4 alarm fire....

There is nothing to justify and plenty of women give it up freely with hopes of payment on to the back end, whatever that is. Usually in the form of a "free ride" not having to work, nice car/suv and hanging around all day at home or the coffee shop or better yet, not fucking your boring ass, somebody else is getting her pussy.

Nobody seems to feel sorry for Heather Mills....

I've said it several times, why do sex workers in the States or in other Western countries have to struggle dating "normal" men when they could have "us"? lol

Like I would care if my gf was a porn star or even a brothel girl. Many of them won't do it forever anyway and want to quit someday. In fact most sex workers quit anyway when they find a man that's worth them quiting the business and for the right man its easy for them to do.

So I agree I see no risk in dating and loving these women either, it can't be any worst than risking it on some tramp that has no intention of living up to her part of the bargain.

As I always say, at least you know what your getting; and if she turns off the sex works, then its something you have done, no guessing.

[Romano V]

http://www.wayodd.com/russian-mayor-...remism/v/4091/

The mayor of Vorkuta wants to legalize prostitution against racism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1712557.stm

Russian mayor wants prostitution legalized to fight extremism.

[Bango Cheito]

What IS the legal situation in Russia?

[Yankee 617]

i saw this article today and thought it worth passing along. the interesting part, to me, is that it appears to criminalize any advertisement or offer of material purported to include child pornography - even if it does not actually contain such child pornography. i'm curious whether law enforcement is exempt or whether this prevents them from "sting" operations which try to entice individuals with offers of such material. i vaguely recall reading a story where law enforcement put up a link offering such child pornography; although there was never any child porn behind the link, they would go after anyone who clicked on the link.

please do not construe any of my statements as defending child pornography, that is not my intent. but i do think this law is overly broad and i agree with the two justices who dissented from the majority opinion in this case.

yankee
==========================
justices uphold child porn law
case involved criminalization of 'pandering'

by robert barnes
washington post staff writer
tuesday, may 20, 2008

the supreme court yesterday upheld an expansive federal law that punishes people who peddle or seek child pornography, saying congress's remedy for a growing problem on the internet does not violate free-speech guarantees.

in its 7 to 2 vote, the court also concluded that the law that criminalized "pandering" of real or purported child pornography online or through the mail is not unconstitutionally vague.

the majority dismissed what it called "fanciful hypotheticals" that the law might make movie reviewers or even unsuspecting grandparents subject to its standards.

"we hold that offers to provide or requests to obtain child pornography are categorically excluded from the first amendment," justice antonin scalia wrote.

he said that "child pornography harms and debases the most defenseless of our citizens," and that the law was "carefully crafted" to respond to child pornography "proliferating through the new medium of the internet."

justices david h. souter and ruth bader ginsburg dissented, saying "the first amendment protection of expression . . . requires a limit" even in pursuit of a worthy goal.

federal authorities have said the law -- known as the protect act (prosecutorial remedies and other tools to end the exploitation of children today) -- is vital in targeting the trafficking of online child pornography.

the law bars not only the exchange of sexually explicit images of children but also any attempt to convince another person that child pornography is available. the law covers offers that do not contain actual pornography and even offers in which no pictures exist.

its pandering provision targets the person who "advertises, promotes, presents, distributes or solicits . . . any material or purported material in a manner that reflects the belief, or that is intended to cause another to believe," that it depicts children engaged in sexual activity.

the provision is needed, authorities said, because it is often difficult to prove that pornography on the internet involved real children.

but challengers said such language was overly broad, an argument that the u.s. court of appeals for the 11th circuit in atlanta had upheld. it would apply to "any promoter -- be they a braggart, exaggerator, or outright liar -- who claims to have illegal pornography," the appellate court said, even if the person had nothing more than "a video of 'our gang,' a dirty handkerchief or an empty pocket."

that was not the situation with the defendant in the case, michael williams, who sent an undercover agent in an internet chat room a link to images of minors engaged in sexual conduct. a subsequent search of williams's florida home turned up additional child pornography. he is serving a five-year sentence for possession of the material but is contesting the additional five years he received on the pandering charge.

the american booksellers foundation for free expression and other groups had asked the court to overturn the law, saying it would restrict protected speech and allow for prosecution even if actual child pornography did not exist.

but scalia methodically dismissed each of the hypotheticals raised by challengers and the appeals court, including whether movies that purported to show **** sex -- or even advertisements for such movies -- would violate the law. "we think it implausible that a reputable distributor of hollywood movies, such as amazon.com, believes that one of these films contains actual children engaging in actual or simulated sex on camera; and even more implausible that amazon.com would intend to make its customers believe such a thing," he wrote.

similarly, scalia said, examples of grandparents swapping photos of their grandchildren in the bath or of sleeping toddlers titled "good pics of kids in bed" would not run afoul of the law. no reasonable juror, he wrote, would find that the speaker meant the pictures would show "actual children engaged in 'sexually explicit conduct' as defined in the act. the prosecutions would be thrown out at the threshold."

scalia was one of the dissenters in 2002 when the court struck down parts of an earlier law, the child pornography prevention act of 1996, saying they were written so broadly that, as justice anthony m. kennedy wrote, they could apply to a production of "romeo and juliet."

justice john paul stevens had worried during oral arguments that a documentary of atrocities in foreign countries that showed soldiers [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) children might violate the new law. but he joined the majority and wrote a concurring opinion saying he was convinced that congress intended the law to apply only to material with a "lascivious purpose."

he said advertising, promotion and distribution of a documentary would not be captured by the law.

but souter said that "the government does not get a free pass whenever it claims a worthy objective for curtailing speech" and that prosecutors had not shown a single case in which the law was necessary to prove a defendant guilty. "perhaps i am wrong, but without some demonstration that juries have been rendering exploitation of children unpunishable, there is no excuse for cutting back on the first amendment and no alternative to finding overbreadth in this act," he wrote.

the case is united states v. williams.

[Bango Cheito]

I'd be more worried about it being used to go after people like Max Hardcore who dresses the actors up like schoolgirls.

[Opebo]

we see how long it takes to shred the constitution once the court is packed with right-wing thugs. say good bye to freedom of speech.

[Jake993]

What IS the legal situation in Russia?

I do believe that prostitution is categorically illegal in Russia. Having said that, there is no shortage of sex for sale in Russia in a variety of forms. Anyone else know for sure?

I am certain that 80 years of communism had an impact on attitudes toward promiscuity and sex in general. Not to say that communism condoned prostitution OR promiscuity, but I get the impression that sex in general did not have the same social taboo in Russia throughout the 1900's as it did in Western Europe and CERTAINLY in North America.

[Bango Cheito]

I dunno about that, from what I've heard during the Soviet era they were absolutely puritanical, as they also were in Mao's China.

[Jake993]

I dunno about that, from what I've heard during the Soviet era they were absolutely puritanical, as they also were in Mao's China.

I have to admit that I really never gave it much thought before.

Take a look at this recent post.
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=740458#post740458
I think Hecker does an interesting job of examining the social change in Russia and how it MIGHT translate into the mindset of Russian girls nowadays. I'm not saying he's correct as I don't have anyway of verifying the accuracy of his statements, but it all seems pretty plausible. In fact, it explains the situation of some of the Russian women I know who are now late 30's or early 40's who married at 19, had their first child at 20 and have been divorced for 10+ years. Oh, and BTW - this is waaaay off topic but there is not much mention of "Russian Cougars" on this site, but I have it on good authority that there are more than just a few very successful, well heeled Muscovite women out there trolling for younger men to have sex with..... not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Yankee 617]

i dunno about that, from what i've heard during the soviet era they were absolutely puritanical, as they also were in mao's china.

i visited leningrad in 1985 on a bus trip with a bunch of finnish guys. their whole purpose was to get drunk and visit their russian girlfriends. such bus groups visiting russia from finland were common and they were known as "vodka tourists".

upon arrival at our intourist hotel, there was much bartering of goods with the hotel staff. each floor of the hotel had a 24 hour staff person with a desk in the hallway; the staff person was there as much to keep a watchful eye on the foreigners as to provide hotel services. the guy i roomed with (only one in our group who spoke decent english) had a couple pair of blue jeans and was bartering with a reasonably-attractive maid. initially, she wanted an all-cash (rubles) deal but he pressed for part-cash and part-sex, which she considered, but eventually he decided to take all-cash and look elsewhere for sex.

i left with a couple other guys (who spoke no english) via black-market taxi to visit their russian girlfriends... plus another one for me. we arrived, well after after sunset, at a tenement and went around back to take the ancient elevator upstairs. there we were greeted by 3 young women and the one "for me" was a redhead who spoke some french along with a few bits of english. my french was better than her english so we used that. unfortunately, her finnish boyfriend was arriving on another bus tour and she was to meet him in a couple hours... so we left her behind and the 5 of us headed to a local nightspot popular with east germans and other eastern bloc tourists. there we ate and drank very well: red & black caviar, soviet champagne, smoked fish and other delecacies. we paid in rubles that we had purchased on the black market with finnish marks; the dollar was strong at the time and, translating the cost back into dollars, it came to a total of $16 for all five of us together (not each). i asked a russian woman to dance which she eagerly accepted but i pushed too soon for her to return to my hotel with me and she took offense.

later i joined up with a couple other finnish guys from our group and we went to another restaurant. we barely touched any of the food that had been laid out (they would lay out food on offer, which was only to be paid for if you took some) but started flirting with some attractive russian girls at the next table. they were from moscow and thought they were "all that" but i eventually negotiated a fair price for a tryst with one at her apartment. as we started to go, the waiters told us an enormous price (by their standards) for our consumption... pointing to one finnish guy in our group who was stinking drunk (true, but he was stinking drunk when we arrived) and claiming he drank a lot of booze. we argued and demanded a written bill, which they did not want to provide as the penalty for taking advantage of foreign tourists was a stiff jail term. ultimately, we got the price way down, paid and left... me in a separate taxi with my russian girl.

we arrived at her flat. my girl was proud of her athletic body saying she was into the sport of rowing. she undressed, admiring herself in the mirror, and was indeed very appealing with well-toned muscles... but she was not very enthusiastic about the sex. before we finished, her roommate arrived... a more petite and feminine young woman who i found more attractive. i started negotiating to have round two with the roommate. initially i got a flat "no" because the roommate was a couple months pregnant... but eventually i got the green light after the athletic one admonished me not to penetrate her petite friend. we took our time gently and sensuously caressing each other in bed, with our hands and our tongues, until we were both horny as hell and she guided my stiff cock into her dripping wet pussy as i cuddled her from behind. what a lovely feeling.

we finished and dressed. i gave the girls the money i promised them (all i had except what i need to get back to my hotel). at this point there was a loud knock on the door with a male voice booming something in russian. the girls whispered that i should keep perfectly quiet, gave me all my money back, and told me this was the police. they yelled back at the persons behind the door, arguing with them in russian, but never permitted them to enter the flat. eventually, whoever was there left. after hanging out about an hour, i again gave their girls their money and went outside. its now about 4 am, the streets were dead quiet/empty, and i'm lost... eventually a car sees me and speeds along to reach me... i gave him my remaining few rubles along with the name of my hotel and (thankfully) he took me there.

in the morning, our stinking drunk finnish friend was missing from the group. but in short order the police came by to inquire if we were missing anyone. they had found him without any id or money and too drunk to be coherent so they kept him jailed overnight. they simply returned him to us later that morning.

our bus was assigned a russian intourist guide who took us to various cultural places but the guys mostly just drank vodka and champagne, caring little about cultural pursuits. when the guide learned there was an american in the group (me), she went out of her way to arrange a brief whirlwind visit to the famous hermitage museum... bypassing all the normal long waiting lines. that was a nice gesture.

in addition to trading a few finnish marks for black market rubles, i also sold a small solar-powered calculator to a persistent (but pleasant) young man who we encountered at a marketplace. i really didn't bring stuff to sell as my finnish colleagues had... but this young man was extremely eager to acquire something from this american, so i ultimately relented.

thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

[Rubber Nursey]

I was under the impression that Russia operated under similar laws as my own state, where 'organised' prostitution is technically illegal but generally tolerated. I could definitely be wrong, though! The most common legal framework around the world criminalises living off the earnings and keeping premises (third party profits) and usually soliciting in public, but doesn't criminalise the sex act itself.

_______________________________________________
If nobody minds, I'm going to use this space for a bit of a post-relationship debrief. I usually blog about this sort of thing to get it off my chest, but seeing as we have so many questions about relationships with working girls on this thread, I figured some people might benefit from me doing it here instead.

I've recently split with my partner of two and a half years. I should clarify from the beginning that my sex work history was by no means the CAUSE of the breakup, but it certainly contributed to the bad feeling that eventually welled up and smothered us both.

This guy is the first partner I've ever told about my work. I've been officially 'retired' for a number of years now, so I wasn't working when I met him, but I still do a LOT of sex worker activism/advocacy. There's no 'right time' to tell your partner that you used to be a hooker - too early and you risk public humiliation as he dumps you and tells all his mates. Too late and it feels like a breach of trust (Why didn't you tell me earlier?) But when he eventually asked me if I had a personal interest in the work I do, I answered him honestly.

To his credit, he was totally amazing about it. He's taken more than one walk on the wild side himself, so he didn't automatically judge or condemn me. He likes people to look past the mistakes he's made and see him for the person he is, so he afforded me the same courtesy. In principle, that is.

In practice, that wasn't as easy as he probably thought it would be. At some point he started to think about it and then he started to dwell on it. He began to relate just about everything to my work (usually implicitly, not explicitly). For example, a few weeks ago I got back from an interstate trip, exhausted, and he pestered me for sex. I could barely keep my eyes open. In the end I laughed and said he could go for it, but not to expect too much participation on my part. He launched into a tirade about me 'switching off' and having sex with no emotion like he was 'just some stranger'. All I meant was that I was likely to fall asleep half way through it.

He suspected me of cheating, worried that I was comparing him to other men in bed, worried that I wasn't satisfied with just one man. I never gave him any cause to think any of that. Before he knew my 'secret', he was proud of the advocacy work I did - eventually I couldn't share any of it with him, because he would get this hurt look on his face. I confronted him once and his response was that he 'didn't want to think about that part of my life'.

Why? I'm not still working. I don't have any diseases. I wasn't emotionally damaged or scarred by my experience. And I had a lot of UNPAID sex before we met, which doesn't seem to bother him at all. He's just blaming all HIS insecurities and prejudices on MY sex work past. The interesting thing is that I think it might have been different if I had regretted my past; considered sex work a mistake that I'm trying to put behind me. Repented. That attitude occurs across the board - ex-sex workers who denounce the sex industry are absolved from guilt, but those who refuse to repent retain the stigma.

So I guess the moral of this ridiculously long post is...if you want to have a relationship with a current or ex working girl, YOU need to be clear on how YOU feel about her work and whether you can handle it with maturity. It's all very well to say "You can take the girl out of the brothel, but you can't take the brothel out of the girl" and various other adages that suggest it's all HER fault if it doesn't work out, but that's not necessarily the case. If YOU look at her and see only a wh*re, that's all she'll ever be...to you, and eventually to herself. You can't imagine how much it hurts to know that when the man you love looks at you, he's imagining you fucking filthy old men in squalid hotel rooms or some other equally offensive stereotype.

I have no issues with my past and I don't see why it should impact on my future. I really loved being able to be completely honest with my partner, but now I'm not so sure it was a good idea and I'd be reluctant to do it again. Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems.

[Yankee 617]

He's just blaming all HIS insecurities and prejudices on MY sex work past. The interesting thing is that I think it might have been different if I had regretted my past; considered sex work a mistake that I'm trying to put behind me. Repented. That attitude occurs across the board - ex-sex workers who denounce the sex industry are absolved from guilt, but those who refuse to repent retain the stigma.


That sounds about right to me. I'm regularly amazed but the amount of hostility/disrespect some mongers display toward the hookers they patronize. I think that, to some extent, their behavior actually issues from their own feelings of guilt and/or need for self-flagellation.

Even worse, in my opinion, are those that accuse the monger of oppressing the poor defenseless hooker who, in their view, "couldn't possibly" have chosen this "horrible" profession of her own volition. [Of course, its no doubt true that some women have been forced/tricked into this vocation. But I feel that most have made the choice for themselves and many are happy with the choice.]

I've been with many women. Some paid and some not. For the most part, I've enjoyed being with them... and I have some very fond tender memories of women I've paid to stay with me for a few days.

Perhaps we should refer to military and police personnel as "violence workers" and put some social stigma on them. If they retire and repent, we could forgive them... if not, we could damn them to hell. Perhaps we could devise organizations to save those violence workers from themselves and get medical treatment/counseling for them... after all, who would knowingly choose a profession whose purpose is to kill and maim others? Either they were forced/tricked/brainwashed into this profession or they must be sick.

Make Love Not War. Peace To All.

[Rubber Nursey]

Perhaps we could devise organizations to save those violence workers from themselves and get medical treatment/counseling for them... after all, who would knowingly choose a profession whose purpose is to kill and maim others? Either they were forced/tricked/brainwashed into this profession or they must be sick.
LMAO! That's an absolute classic. :) We should probably consider criminalising them as well... for their own protection, of course.


Even worse, in my opinion, are those that accuse the monger of oppressing the poor defenseless hooker who, in their view, "couldn't possibly" have chosen this "horrible" profession of her own volition.
I agree, 100%. And that view denigrates ALL women, not just sex workers. It reinforces the belief that women have no agency or autonomy over their own bodies - that they're 'controlled' by men. The ridiculous notion that sex work is driven by demand and that if we stop the demand (ie. lock up clients) the supply will magically dry up, is based on the same principle.

They paint this pathetic picture of a man waving a hundred dollar bill in a desperate woman's face; she caves because she needs the money and the man 'exploits' her desperation. Why can't we look at it from the other angle? The woman waves her booty in the horny man's face: he caves because his desire is overwhelming and she 'exploits' his weakness? Because again, that suggests women might have control over their own sexuality.

Personally, I don't believe either party is being oppressed or exploited. There's no automatic assumption of exploitation in any other commercial transaction! If women have a commodity that men are willing to pay for, they should have every right to sell it. And men should have every right to purchase it, without guilt.

[Dickhead]

I don't want to have an exclusive relationship but I have had a lot of long-term relationships with hookers. What do I mean by a relationship? Spending the night, traveling, going out to plays and shows and dancing and such (I don't do movies), playing cards, blah blah blah, same stuff any guy would do with any girlfriend. The longest one of these lasted four years. I recently chose to end that but it had nothing to do with her being an ex-hooker.

The remaining one I have now has lasted three and a half years. She is married (pretty much, not legally but she lives with him and calls him her partner and sometimes her husband) and runs her own (non-sex related) business now but she was a hooker when I met her and I still give her money every time I see her.

Then there are a few who I don't see regularly any more but still stay in contact with, see once in a while, call them on their birthdays, blah blah blah. Never once did it occur to me to throw back in their faces that they were or had been prostitutes. Of course I am a full-time mongerer so that would be rather hypocritical. I don't think I could ever have an actual "girlfriend" who continued to work as a hooker, and maybe I could never have an actual "girlfriend" ever again after all I have seen and done. But I did consider (but ultimately rejected) having some of these ex-hookers as an official girlfriend, and I know their previous employment would not have bothered me down the road.

However, I am equally convinced that for 90 or 95% of most American men, this would not be true and the woman would, at some point, get the fact that she had been a hooker thrown back in her face.

I like having relationships with hookers because I know I am going to get sex every time I see them. I never get "turned down" and I never have to play games to get sex. I view this whole arrangement as being highly moral. No one is lying about being faithful, expectations don't get out of hand, and I don't have to report where I am at all times. One of them did fall in love with me, and wished I would quit whoring around and be her boyfriend, but we got past that and got another couple of good years in before it went kablooey for reasons unrelated to me whoring around or her being an ex-hooker.

Too bad it didn't work for you, Rub. Sorry to hear that. Maybe don't live with the guy next time. I know that can be tempting for purely economic reasons but it actually sort of sucks.

[Rubber Nursey]

Maybe don't live with the guy next time. I know that can be tempting for purely economic reasons but it actually sort of sucks.
I didn't. We both have our own houses. We spent an awful lot of time together and often he slept at mine or me at his, but we never fully 'merged' our households. We both have kids (he's a single Dad) so the needs of our respective families came first. Plus, I'm not so sure I could ever live with a man again. Just the thought of it makes me feel claustrophobic.

[DJ FourMoney]

That sounds about right to me. I'm regularly amazed but the amount of hostility/disrespect some mongers display toward the hookers they patronize. I think that, to some extent, their behavior actually issues from their own feelings of guilt and/or need for self-flagellation.

Even worse, in my opinion, are those that accuse the monger of oppressing the poor defenseless hooker who, in their view, "couldn't possibly" have chosen this "horrible" profession of her own volition. [Of course, its no doubt true that some women have been forced/tricked into this vocation. But I feel that most have made the choice for themselves and many are happy with the choice.]

I've been with many women. Some paid and some not. For the most part, I've enjoyed being with them... and I have some very fond tender memories of women I've paid to stay with me for a few days.

Perhaps we should refer to military and police personnel as "violence workers" and put some social stigma on them. If they retire and repent, we could forgive them... if not, we could damn them to hell. Perhaps we could devise organizations to save those violence workers from themselves and get medical treatment/counseling for them... after all, who would knowingly choose a profession whose purpose is to kill and maim others? Either they were forced/tricked/brainwashed into this profession or they must be sick.

Make Love Not War. Peace To All.

Love solves everything, easy...

The girl I was with at FKK Oase I would have easily became her boyfriend and not thought anything about what she was doing. She gave me GFE, it wasn't like the Polish girl I had after that...

She fucked me better than any GF I've had, she just didn't squirt like the last one did...

[Jake993]

RN,
Sorry to hear it didn't work out. That's a bummer . Hope yer ok.
Keep your chin up and don't give up on us blokes altogether.
There's plenty of us here on ISG who know where you are coming from and respect you for who you are and the good work you are doing.
Good luck and happy trails.....
Jake

[Excess]

It happens but when it does to you it is always worse.

Sigh, never ceases to surprise me how we males have such fragile egos but it goes with the XY, I guess. Hunters and gatherers, yes, but silly woosies too.

Easy for me to say but true, it is his loss in the end not yours.

Up and at 'em girl.

May I suggest what I find to be a antidote as you move along the way?

A large glass of your favorite tipple, oh hell, make that 2 or 3 one quiet evening and afternoon. And a loud dose of Dr. Boudleaux Bryant expressed best by Nazareth in 1975 with "Love Hurts". Try it, at worst you'll come out of this therapy session with a big smile.

Shine on, girl.

[Bango Cheito]

RN, only thing I can say is PLEASE PLEASE for your own sake, don't start dissimulating. The world needs more sincere people, and in the end you will be doing yourself a big favor by standing strong. Besides, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of. NOTHING. If a guy can't handle it, FUCK HIM. That's HIS problem.

[Warbucks]

....Of course I am a full-time mongerer so that would be rather hypocritical. I don't think I could ever have an actual "girlfriend" who continued to work as a hooker, and maybe I could never have an actual "girlfriend" ever again after all I have seen and done. But I did consider (but ultimately rejected) having some of these ex-hookers as an official girlfriend, and I know their previous employment would not have bothered me down the road.

I like having relationships with hookers because I know I am going to get sex every time I see them. I never get "turned down" and I never have to play games to get sex. I view this whole arrangement as being highly moral. No one is lying about being faithful, expectations don't get out of hand, and I don't have to report where I am at all times.

I have a steady who has never been involved in the trade and despises it for the most part. She does know about my whoring past because before we were lovers we were friends. That being said I am starting to think I can never be in straight committed relationship. Fucking various women with no strings for me exhilarating.....Call me a sex addict or what you will.

As for dating a hookers or ex- I just couldn’t deal with that. For me the mental images of what she has done with various men just for a financial transaction and not out of love for that man would be too much for me to stomach. I mean if you had non-working girl spouse or girl who was three times married it still means something to me that she was with her exes because she loved them not for purely financial transaction.

Take It Sleazy

[Dickhead]

Show me a woman who has been married three times and was in love with all of her husbands. I certainly have not ever met any. But then I can stomach a lot of mental images now that I have been with 450 hookers, some of whom we were passing around among our social circle, some of whom I fucked immediately after someone else I knew fucked her, and so forth. I just don't care any more.

[Rubber Nursey]

Fucking various women with no strings for me is exhilarating.....Call me a sex addict or what you will.
*** For me the mental images of what she has done with various men just for a financial transaction and not out of love for that man would be too much for me to stomach.
Wow - I think that's probably the best example of blatant double standards I've ever seen! :)

That's a very old-fashioned notion of women's sexuality you have there, D'Etat. We should only do it for love? What if she hadn't had sex for money, but just for fun? Do you feel the same way about girls with a history of non-P4P casual encounters?

Not that I'm knocking you. The main point of my post below was that men should be aware of how their girlfriend's sexual past may impact on the relationship and it's good that you're very clear on what you will and won't tolerate. But I do find it interesting that a well-travelled, sexually liberated 'modern man' would view women's sexuality in such a 'traditional' way.

[Warbucks]

Wow - I think that's probably the best example of blatant double standards I've ever seen! :)

That's a very old-fashioned notion of women's sexuality you have there, D'Etat. We should only do it for love? What if she hadn't had sex for money, but just for fun? Do you feel the same way about girls with a history of non-P4P casual encounters?

Not that I'm knocking you. The main point of my post below was that men should be aware of how their girlfriend's sexual past may impact on the relationship and it's good that you're very clear on what you will and won't tolerate. But I do find it interesting that a well-travelled, sexually liberated 'modern man' would view women's sexuality in such a 'traditional' way.

Yes RN I am a bit archaic when it comes to women. Do not think it’s an age thing I am in my late 20s. It’s definitely not religion either as I am a devout Atheist. I ask a how women could give up something that is priceless (Self-Respect) for a few dollars.

Casual encounters in my opinion is worse then P4P from a woman's stand point when I look at the situation in retrospect. I had a buddy in high-school whose little sister was what we called a "dick fiend." She was fucking everything in the school. My football teammate felt like shit but could do nothing. Half of us had fucked her. We need to get around this there nothing wrong with this act. I know if someone told me my mother was turning tricks or my daughter or was randomly having casual sex (Don’t have a daughter yet but speaking hypothetically) I would be disgusted.

Yes we all know and scientist have proven that males of various species of life forms like to fornicate. While women on the other hand tend to be more emotional about that matter. That being said sex is taken if you will more serious by women then men. So for me a woman who throws her self around with wild abandon hooking like its going out of style is damaged goods. I think irreparable damage is done in a short time to her body and mind. I certainly could not be in relationship with a lady if she told me she had let a stranger fuck her anally for 10 bucks. Do I think WGs should be exiled from normal relationships? No. But for me that is a venue I want no parts of.

[Member #4214]

Wow - I think that's probably the best example of blatant double standards I've ever seen! It's not double standard. Sex is a mental pursuit, and if the 'back story' on a girl doesn't stroke the guy just right, its not going to work.

Fucking a dirty wh*re for a nickel can be great once in a while. But it is hard to imagine that girl is an untouched princess in love, while it is always easy to play 'dirty wh*re' with that same princess when the inspiration hits.

RN - with that break-up experience. I would just suggest you control your back-story more, FOR HIS ENJOYMENT. You don't necessarily need to deceive him, but perhaps be coy about your past and ask/invite him to lock away from scrutiny that part of your life. Telling him that you 'regret' isn't a lie or cop-out, but think of it as a sweet thing you say.

First and foremost, sex is mental for men. Physical second. In both of your posts you seem oblivious.

[Rubber Nursey]

Mike, DH, Excess, Bango, Jake...thanks so much for the kind words. I didn't write that post to extract sympathy, but I do appreciate your support all the same. :)

[SE Asia Joe]

I have no issues with my past and I don't see why it should impact on my future. I really loved being able to be completely honest with my partner, but now I'm not so sure it was a good idea and I'd be reluctant to do it again. Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems.
RN - my take on your ongoing saga.
Do NOT, NEVER disclose your past to anybody.
I've lived in many parts of the world - both West as well as the East and opines that Western society is just so much more hypocritical when it comes to Sex - especially paid sex. In the East, prostitution is a fact of life that is out in the open - and thus we in the East deal with it more prgmatically.

A very large number of Eastern women have had to resort to P4P to survive, to better themselves, to use it to go on to another phase of their life - and when they do so, I would say that the large majority of them would NEVER disclose such history to anybody. They'd go back to their own village or move elsewhere and assume the guise of a "decent" girl.... and rebuild their lives as such. In many cases, they even make themselves deny that they were actually hooking in the past. the past is dead and totally buried. THAT - is the only actual way they can go on with life.

You say damned if you and damned if you don't - WHY? How could you be damned if you've actually erased all memories of your days as a worker? And the first thing you oughta do is quit your prostitution activism - why even touch this - when you got nothing more to gain from it? What, your conscience and altruism and repaying your debt to society - at the expense of your own life?? That's nonsense. You've gone out of prostitution, now just get out of it totally...... and restart your life.

Conscience...your obligation to be totally honest to your partner....come clean on everything..???? All hypociritical Western concepts of correctness. We in the East do whatever it is necessary to survive first and foremost - forgettabout conscience and doing the right thing etc - all Bs compared to each individual's need to first survive.

Just IMHO

SEAJ

[Rubber Nursey]

It's not double standard...if the 'back story' on a girl doesn't stroke the guy just right, its not going to work.
You're mixing the two posts together. My double standard comment was in response to D'Etat saying that he loves no-strings sex, but that women should only have sex for love. He casts no judgement on himself for his sexual behaviour, but defines a woman's worth according to hers. THAT'S the double standard.

The fact that he's turned off by a woman with a colourful past is an entirely different matter. It's no different to him saying he won't date women of a particular race/age/height/weight. I have no problem with that. Whatever floats your boat (or in this case, sinks it).

[Rubber Nursey]

Do NOT, NEVER disclose your past to anybody....assume the guise of a "decent" girl.... and rebuild their lives ...make themselves deny that they were actually hooking in the past. the past is dead and totally buried.
I have no need, nor desire, to forget anything. I have nothing to rebuild, because my life was never shattered. And I can assure you, I'm as 'decent' as they come. Why should I bury my past...because it might make it easier for OTHERS in my life? Don't I have the right to happiness with a man who loves me for who I am, not who he *thinks* I am? Doesn't HE have the right to have a partner who is completely honest with him?


And the first thing you oughta do is quit your prostitution activism - why even touch this - when you got nothing more to gain from it? What, your conscience and altruism and repaying your debt to society - at the expense of your own life??
I worked hard, paid my taxes, raised my children to be upstanding citizens. And what did I receive in return? No employee protections, no police assistance if things went wrong, no respect for making the tough decisions and paying my own way. My reward was debilitating stigma and discrimination. A lifetime of shame and vilification. I owe society sweet f*ck all.

What do I have to gain? The hope that future hookers won't ever have to live like that. And don't think for a second that this doesn't affect me, just because I'm no longer working. I can't go into politics or television or write a book...anything that might put me into the limelight and make people look into my past for dirt. I can't work as a teacher or a police officer or in any other position of authority, especially with children. I've been audited by the tax department and social security because they assume I'm doing cash work (even though I declared all my earnings when I was hooking). And obviously, it's affected my personal relationships.

Everything society 'knows' about sex work is based on myths and stereotypes and every time a hooker stays quiet and/or denies their positive experiences in the sex industry, they give those negative stereotypes more power. I can't 'restart my life' because society won't let me. I will not forget and I will not repent...the only option I have left is to fight.

[Rubber Nursey]

I ask a how women could give up something that is priceless (Self-Respect) for a few dollars...sex is taken if you will more serious by women then men. So for me a woman who throws her self around with wild abandon hooking like its going out of style is damaged goods.
I had this debate in the Thailand thread just the other day. You're confusing how YOU think a woman should feel about sex, with how the woman herself may feel about it. Your theory on self-respect and 'damage', for example, relies on the idea that women 'take sex more seriously' than men. If she closely relates sex with love and compromises that belief by having sex for money, she will lose self-respect. If she loses self-respect, she will eventually be damaged by the experience. That makes sense. But what if she DOESN'T equate sex with love? What if she sees sex as just another fun, healthy activity? What if she sees sex work as just another job?

What you're actually saying is that YOU would lose respect for her. It doesn't automatically follow that she would lose respect for herself.

[SE Asia Joe]

I have no need, nor desire, to forget anything. I have nothing to rebuild, because my life was never shattered. And I can assure you, I'm as 'decent' as they come. Why should I bury my past...because it might make it easier for OTHERS in my life? Don't I have the right to happiness with a man who loves me for who I am, not who he *thinks* I am? Doesn't HE have the right to have a partner who is completely honest with him?

RN - your retort and thinking is precisely what is wrong with "values and morality" in the west and for Westerners. You think more about what is RIGHT rather than what is going to be the BEST WAY FORWARD.

And why should you bury your past? Are you THAT proud of having been a hooker - for if so, then I really feel for you. Forget about the pride you feel for having survived, for paying the taxes or ..... whatever. SO WHAT???!!

There are all sorts of things that one is - or should be - ashamed of in the past - why proclaim for all the world to know your shame?

Your RIGHT to happiness???!!! Why do you think that the world OWES you the right? As far as your ".....because it might make it EASIER FOR OTHERS in my life..." @@@@ YES Precisely!@@@ And Why not? Why throw your past at all and sundry and then throw this nonsense about that you still have the right! You're practically saying you've got the right to punch me and then I must take it in stride and.....give you back happiness. What BS! You don't punch me, I won't punch you back - its as simple as that.

And NO he does NOT have the right to have a partner who is completely honest with him - Its nice if he does have a partner who can be completely honest with him - but he certainly does NOT have the right to expect so.


I worked hard, paid my taxes, raised my children to be upstanding citizens. And what did I receive in return? No employee protections, no police assistance if things went wrong, no respect for making the tough decisions and paying my own way. My reward was debilitating stigma and discrimination. A lifetime of shame and vilification. I owe society sweet f*ck all.
AND society owes you precisely the same thing; Sweet F*ck all. And YES, your reward IS debilitating stigma and discrimination - that is precisely it. That is just natural human reaction - LIKE IT OR NOT - nothing less nothing more. And it is precisely because of this, that Eastern EX- Hookers would turn a totally new leaf. they know they cannot change the world. YOU??!! You really think you can?? Good luck to you my dear girl - but wake up - smell the coffee and recognize the world for what it is and..... make your way forward in the best way UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCE.


What do I have to gain? The hope that future hookers won't ever have to live like that. And don't think for a second that this doesn't affect me, just because I'm no longer working. I can't go into politics or television or write a book...anything that might put me into the limelight and make people look into my past for dirt. I can't work as a teacher or a police officer or in any other position of authority, especially with children. I've been audited by the tax department and social security because they assume I'm doing cash work (even though I declared all my earnings when I was hooking). And obviously, it's affected my personal relationships.
The HOPE???!!! Get real RN - you and what army gonna make society change their perception of Sex work? What are you smoking???
And if it's affected your personal relationship - well its because its the only natural thing to happen when you disclose to anybody that you are, were or had been a Sex worker. THAT my dear IS reality. Not hope, not wishes, not some fanciful idea as to how the world should be.


Everything society 'knows' about sex work is based on myths and stereotypes and every time a hooker stays quiet and/or denies their positive experiences in the sex industry, they give those negative stereotypes more power. I can't 'restart my life' because society won't let me. I will not forget and I will not repent...the only option I have left is to fight.

EVERYTHING???? Come of it young lady - even you cain't be that idealistic!
Positive experiences??? OHMIGAWD - to me.... and i would venture to say - for the vast majority of people....including sex workers/ex-sex workers - the amount of POSITIVES in hooking is miniscule when compared to the negatives. THAT is just the way it is. Sorry - but you'd be better off accepting this.... and start figuring out your life based on this rather than trying to change the world.

Your whole approach to life seems to be based on that you really think that you've done everything 100% correct. Well, news flash for you dear girl - there's no such person! worse, you'd been in a profession that the vast majority of the world DOES look down upon - THAT is the reality - so what have you got to gain from justifying, justifying and even pontificating about the merits of prostitution?

Life is more than just being right - its more about how to make the best of any situation and to try to improve oneself in the process.

Like I said, all of this is IMHO only - but I do feel that I do need to be a bit harsh for you to realize that your approach to life may - perhaps may - warrant a second look.

And BTW - I ain't got nuthin to gain from my trying to convince you one way or the other - right? But its the Ole Western part of SEAJ that's doing the typing - idealistic, of no personal benefit and probably even causing myself possible harm (I'll probably get flamed here!!) - but HEY Its right!! (IDIOT ME!!! and errr..... howzabout you?)

Good luck RN

SEAJ

[SE Asia Joe]

AND.... BTW RN -
yes I do note that you do always have a retort, an answer, a "look at it from the hooker's point of view" etc etc - but for every single person you manage to convince on the "Merits and Glory of Happy Hooking" welll..... I can tell you that there are probably gonna be zillions who just think you're full of it.

The world just ain't what it ain't!

So please, before you come back to me with some of the witty and challenging come backs that I sometimes applaud you for - please - you're writing about YOUR LIFE and not some mythical and/or ideal third person and certainly about the world as it is and not an idealisitic one.

You yourself know your own heart breaks - why even go on the same path when the other path I'm trying to point you towards is going to be soooooo much easier and soooooo much more rewarding. Righteous indignation is...... just that. It won't give you happiness. NOPE!

SEAJ

[Member #4214]

You're mixing the two posts together. My double standard comment was in response to D'Etat saying that he loves no-strings sex, but that women should only have sex for love. He casts no judgement on himself for his sexual behaviour, but defines a woman's worth according to hers. THAT'S the double standard.

The fact that he's turned off by a woman with a colourful past is an entirely different matter. It's no different to him saying he won't date women of a particular race/age/height/weight. I have no problem with that. Whatever floats your boat (or in this case, sinks it).Perhaps you've just been fucked too many times RN. In the quote you specifically referenced, DEtat says he is turned off by mental images, not the colorful past per se. But again I understand, the difference is too subtle for you.

Originally Posted by D Etat

Fucking various women with no strings for me is exhilarating. Call me a sex addict or what you will.

*** For me the mental images of what she has done with various men just for a financial transaction and not out of love for that man would be too much for me to stomach.

[Rubber Nursey]

Ok, SEAJoe...firstly, I'm not gonna flame you. You have every right to your own opinion and I appreciate your honesty.

You're right. I'm talking about MY LIFE. If I got on here and talked about the realities of being an accountant or a police officer or a newsreader, people would tell me to shut up because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But I know about hooking. It's MY LIFE. You said that I would probably come back with a retort like 'Look at it from the hookers point of view'. Well, who else's point of view really counts in this debate? Is there someone else more qualified to talk about sex work than a sex worker? You're doing exactly what I just accused 'society' of doing - denying my personal experiences and telling me how I should feel.

Worse, you're saying not only should I have to live with this stigma ...I should feel guilty about transfering it to my partner???

"Why proclaim for all the world to know your shame?" I'm not ashamed of anything.
"Why throw your past at all and sundry..." If you go back a few pages on this thread, you'll see me asking for advice whether or not to tell my partner about my past. I was reluctant, thinking that the average man probably wouldn't want to know. Surprisingly, most posters told me I was wrong and that I should definitely tell him. This is the first time I've 'thrown my past' at a partner and that was only after he asked me outright. If I had my time over, I'm not sure I'd do things the same way.
AND society owes you precisely the same thing; Sweet F*ck all. I don't expect anything. I was just responding to your comment that I was 'repaying my debt to society'. I don't recall racking up any debts.
Your whole approach to life seems to be based on that you really think that you've done everything 100% correct.
LOL! Gawd no! I've fucked up more times than I can count! I've never claimed that I've done everything right - only that I've done what was right for me at the time and that I have no regrets.
And it is precisely because of this, that Eastern EX- Hookers would turn a totally new leaf. they know they cannot change the world.
That's a shame, because I really believe they can.

[Rubber Nursey]

I should add: I know my hopes of a sex worker-friendly Utopia sound ludicrous to you, but not so long ago women weren't allowed to vote or drink in bars, black people had to sit at the back of the bus, unmarried mothers had their children forcibly taken from them, mixed marriages were unthinkable and gay marriages? God forbid!

These basic human rights were won through the tireless work of loud and proud activists. In my country and many others, sex work is a legal occupation and like any other law-abiding citizens, sex workers deserve access to justice, health services, finance, employee protections and freedom from discrimination in their everyday lives. I really don't think that's too much to ask.

[Dickhead]

First and foremost, sex is mental for men. Physical second. In both of your posts you seem oblivious.

Not for this man, it isn't.

[Dickhead]

Well, Rub, I did a lot of drugs in my youth. And I enjoyed it, and I don't think it was morally wrong, and I never hurt anyone with it, and I am not ashamed of it. But I don't tell my women friends about it. It is a different culture and most of them have never even tried marijuana and to them marijuana is no different from heroin. That's ridiculous, of course, but that is what they think.

I mean, if one were to ask me if I had tried marijuana or cocaine or whatever (none of them ever has), I would say, yes, sure. But I would not then volunteer the information that I smoked pot every god damn day for thirty years, or that I sold it, or that I got busted for it (not for selling). I would not say I tried cocaine hundreds of times or that I did drugs at work or that I took Quaaludes and LSD hundreds of times and used nitrous oxide and Locker Room and Blue Cheer and that I tried every god damn thing I could get my hands on, multiple multiple times until it bled out my ears.

My best friends' son, who is an adult, asked me how many women I had slept with so I acted like I actually remember them all and was counting them, and I told him "8."

Nobody is entitled to the whole truth about your past life. I would never ask a hooker how long she had been doing it or how many clients she's had, or anything like that. I would never ask a girl friend how many lovers she's had (partly because I don't give a shit).

To quote Shakespeare, "What is past is prologue."

[Bango Cheito]

I take the opposite tack. I PROUDLY tell people what I've done in the past (which DOES include marijuana and doesnt include heroin!) and if they can't tell the difference, they can pretty much GO FUCK THEMSELVES.

WHY should we the more intelligent among us pander to stupid stereotypes perpetuated by morons? Specifically WHY on earth should a bright and articulate person like RN make the choice to bottle up her REAL feelings and her REAL knowledge? In what sense would this be the "best way forward"? For her personally? I fucking doubt that very much! For the greater society? Maybe in the short-term..... the defition of "best" in that context seems to me like it's representing "most orderly" or "most harmonious" and I ABSOLUTELY don't think that order and harmony are the summum bonum. That's silly Confucian logic. I recommend putting down Confucius and reading Lao Tze instead!!

The "best way forward" for ANY human society at this point IMO is to start seeing the forest and not the trees, ripping cultures apart and trying to put them better together for our own good before we all choke on our own waste and air pollution or run out of food and water or all three. That's kind of out in left field as far as this topic goes, but to me it seems a little spurious to put forth "well, that's just the way it is" in a fucked up world like this one is.

[Rubber Nursey]

I mean, if one were to ask me if I had tried marijuana or cocaine or whatever (none of them ever has), I would say, yes, sure. But I would not then volunteer the information that I smoked pot every god damn day for thirty years, or that I sold it, or that I got busted for it (not for selling).
I think people might have the wrong idea about what I told my partner. I didn't regale him with bawdy tales of group sex and kooky escort clients! He asked me if I used to work. I said yes. That's about it. He never asked me for graphic details and I certainly didn't volunteer them. Anything he thinks he 'knows' about my work has come from his own imagination.

I never wanted to tell him in the first place. I really had no idea how I would respond to that question, right up until the moment he asked it. He was waiting for an answer and I realised I couldn't lie to his face, so I told the truth. I should add that he has some pretty serious past issues of his own that he shared openly with me, right from the start. I felt like NOT telling him the truth would be a huge breach of trust.

[SE Asia Joe]

RN and Bango:

the way that you think and act..... is precisely what I am pointing out to as far as a Western Mentality is concerned. IDEALISTIC even if it kills ya!

Come on guys - its YOUR life - why do you feel it purposeful to sacrifice everything just to fulfill your idealism? OK, I have lots of respect for Martin Luther King - but would I rather be Martin (who died young, very young) or Barrack Obama who is actually reaping the rewards of Martin's efforts. And I mean on a personal level...one life only to live..YOUR life!

If I had stayed in the West, I probably would be like you guys as I did do most of my growing up during the vey idealistic flower power 60's. Coming back to the East and abosrbing the philosophies of Eastern practicalities and pragmatism, I soon realized that the most important thing in life is to first and foremost love oneself - and in most cases, idealism for the world's greater good just cannot play any part at all in such a pursuit. It's precisely this that as you rightly point out have contributed to the degradation of many parts of the world - but hey, my oriental way of thinking tells me that its more important for me NOT to starve to death rather than worry about what my actions is going to do to the environment.

The same w/RN - why are you putting your own chance at happiness just because idealistically its not the right thing to do? Survive first before you should worry about others!

SEAJ

[SE Asia Joe]

Ok, SEAJoe...firstly, I'm not gonna flame you. You have every right to your own opinion and I appreciate your honesty.
Thanks - and please understand that I am not in any way trying to put you down or denigrate your opinion etc. Rather, my real intention is to hopefully convince you to subscribe a bit to my way of thinking and in the process perhaps get a shot at happiness in life.
As an side, do you remember that it was you who taught me how to be able to 'quote' passages as I am now doing? Ij ust thought of that.


You're right. I'm talking about MY LIFE. If I got on here and talked about the realities of being an accountant or a police officer or a newsreader, people would tell me to shut up because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But I know about hooking. It's MY LIFE. You said that I would probably come back with a retort like 'Look at it from the hookers point of view'. Well, who else's point of view really counts in this debate? Is there someone else more qualified to talk about sex work than a sex worker? You're doing exactly what I just accused 'society' of doing - denying my personal experiences and telling me how I should feel./{QUOTE]
NO NO NO! You are NOT a hooker any more (you said so yourself) - so why do you still think and talk and feel like a hooker?
I was a boy once, do I at present still go about talking, thinking and feeling as a boy? You were a hooker once - but you are not now. Hooking was a PAST phase of your life, now get on with this phase from the perspective of what you are at present - not what you were.
And no, I'm not suggesting that you deny anything about yourself or your past - but why concentrate only on the hooking part of your life? Yes, it was what you were, yes, you learned lessons from it, but thats all it should be.... and in the past.
[QUOTE]Worse, you're saying not only should I have to live with this stigma ...I should feel guilty about transfering it to my partner???
Of course I say that you should not live with this stigma - do you really like/enjoy living with it?? And the way to do that is for you NOT to tell anybody about your past. Nobody knows, you don't live with the stigma.

And your partner - Yes damn right you should feel badly about having told him what you were and giving him problems of how to handle such a fact about you. Relationships are hard enough without you dumping more problems - and telling him about your hooking past is one helluva big problem - and for what?? Just to satisfy yourself that you don't tell no lies?? How stupidly idealistic. Be practical is what I am telling you. Be practical, and get on with life without creating your own problems - which is exactly what you're doing by "disclosing" - Oh wow - how noble!! but OH - how stupid!!


"Why proclaim for all the world to know your shame?" I'm not ashamed of anything.
"Why throw your past at all and sundry..." If you go back a few pages on this thread, you'll see me asking for advice whether or not to tell my partner about my past. I was reluctant, thinking that the average man probably wouldn't want to know. Surprisingly, most posters told me I was wrong and that I should definitely tell him. This is the first time I've 'thrown my past' at a partner and that was only after he asked me outright. If I had my time over, I'm not sure I'd do things the same way.
The world like I said is the way that it is. You KNOW that there is stigma with hooking - and that stigma is the shame that is showered upon you by society. OK you're not ashamed - but society dictates that you should be shamed. That's the way it is - sorry.

And as far as your previous advise on the matter - 1. you now know damn good and well that it was BAD advise 2. If now you know that its a bad idea - why even think for a second if you should disclose in the future? 3. My advise - be practical, and get on with your present life and not obsess about your past - which is what it SEEMS to me is what you're doing even by always writing on ISG.


AND society owes you precisely the same thing; Sweet F*ck all. I don't expect anything. I was just responding to your comment that I was 'repaying my debt to society'. I don't recall racking up any debts.
Your whole approach to life seems to be based on that you really think that you've done everything 100% correct.
LOL! Gawd no! I've fucked up more times than I can count! I've never claimed that I've done everything right - only that I've done what was right for me at the time and that I have no regrets.
And it is precisely because of this, that Eastern EX- Hookers would turn a totally new leaf. they know they cannot change the world.
That's a shame, because I really believe they can.
Your proclamation that you were a hooker.... and then expecting that society is gonna say - "oh well, that is OK, you are still very much part of society" - is that not "expecting?" - and expecting foolishly?
And if you can blithely say that you've fucked up in the past - and then say that it was right for you at the time - then I really think that you're an extremely confused person! Jeez - look at the ridiculousness of your statement! If it is wrong now then it was wrong then.

RN - you're starting to make me rant....and that ain't good!

Let me just get back to my central advise - be practical, do whatever is required to live and and love yourself....and stop grandstanding useless grandstands!

SEAJ

[Rubber Nursey]

OK, I have lots of respect for Martin Luther King - but would I rather be Martin (who died young, very young) or Barrack Obama who is actually reaping the rewards of Martin's efforts.
Obama would never be in the position he is now if generations of passionate black activists hadn't done the groundwork. What you're saying is that we should focus on our own lives and let someone else do the hard yards. But who? If every one of us thought that way, nothing would ever change! It's like that By-stander Syndrome, where people just stand around and wait, assuming that someone else in the group is going to go to the dying man's aid. If EVERYONE thinks that, nobody helps and the man dies. Somebody has to think outside the square.

Advocacy/activism isn't for everyone. Most of the time, it's like banging your head against a brick wall. But it works eventually. I had my own win just a few weeks back when my Govt finally decriminalised brothels in my state. In a couple of months, they will be subject to the same rules as any other business, employees will have the same rights as other workers and clients will have the same rights as other consumers. The next step is anti-discrimination protections, which will protect people like ME from future persecution based on past employment. (See...my motives aren't entirely altruistic).

[Rubber Nursey]

NO NO NO! You are NOT a hooker any more (you said so yourself) ...You were a hooker once - but you are not now ....why concentrate only on the hooking part of your life? ...get on with life without creating your own problems - which is exactly what you're doing by "disclosing"
Again, I should probably qualify my degree of disclosure. Obviously I identify as an ex-hooker on this site, because it's a prostitution site. I started posting here when I was working and continued because it keeps me up to date with local and international sex industry trends, which is helpful in my advocacy work. If I'm asked advice or whatever on this site, it's usually a P4P perspective the poster is looking for, so I draw on my sex industry experience to answer it.

But in the real world, I'm not 'out' as an ex-hooker. Only one of my oldest friends knows I used to work. My last partner was the only partner I've ever told. Most of my advocacy work is done under the strictest of confidentiality, or completely anonymously. And when I'm not working or posting on this site, I'm just your ordinary, everyday woman. I cook, I clean, I read and write and paint and pull weeds and help with homework. It's not like I run around with a big scarlet letter on my forehead!

My problem (and the main reason for my continued advocacy) is that I don't have complete control over my disclosure. My name is on a police register of sex workers, which doesn't distinguish whether you're still working or left the industry 20 years ago. That register is the biggest threat to my future happiness and while it exists, I'll never be able to just 'forget about it' and 'move on'.


If now you know that its a bad idea - why even think for a second if you should disclose in the future?
I said in my original post that I'd be reluctant to do it again. I also know it's impossible to be happy in a relationship when you're hiding a big secret - I've done that for the past ten years. I've tried both, neither works. Best to just stay single.

[SE Asia Joe]

Obama would never be in the position he is now if generations of passionate black activists hadn't done the groundwork. What you're saying is that we should focus on our own lives and let someone else do the hard yards.
Advocacy/activism isn't for everyone. Most of the time, it's like banging your head against a brick wall. But it works eventually. I had my own win just a few weeks back when my Govt finally decriminalised brothels in my state. In a couple of months, they will be subject to the same rules as any other business, employees will have the same rights as other workers and clients will have the same rights as other consumers. The next step is anti-discrimination protections, which will protect people like ME from future persecution based on past employment. (See...my motives aren't entirely altruistic).
THAT is precisely what I am saying. Let somebody do the hard work - why should YOU be the one? That is what I mean by being practical and pragmatic.

On top of that, idealism in your ex-world - hooking - is really a pipe dream ANYWAY that you try to make it. Decriminalize brothels?? So what if a hooker is no longer a criminal - just a hooker? She's still a hooker and subject to all the stigma and prejudice and....... And you gotta be dreamin' if you think that laws are gonna protect you from bigotry and ignorance. Its still gonna exist no matter how you legislate or not.

Like I said, the world is what it is. Accept it, ignore things you don't like, even forget those parts of yourself that you don't like or causes you rpoblems - and get on with life. Otherwise I see visions of all those 60 year old grannies still in their vivid floral skirts, braided and beflowered hair camping out besides their old beat up VW combies singing "Imagine or Puff the Magic Dragon". Pathetic

SEAJ

[Warbucks]

I had this debate in the Thailand thread just the other day. You're confusing how YOU think a woman should feel about sex, with how the woman herself may feel about it. Your theory on self-respect and 'damage', for example, relies on the idea that women 'take sex more seriously' than men. If she closely relates sex with love and compromises that belief by having sex for money, she will lose self-respect. If she loses self-respect, she will eventually be damaged by the experience. That makes sense. But what if she DOESN'T equate sex with love? What if she sees sex as just another fun, healthy activity? What if she sees sex work as just another job?

What you're actually saying is that YOU would lose respect for her. It doesn't automatically follow that she would lose respect for herself.

How would you feel if your child told you they wanted to be a prostitute? Can you look me in the eye and tell me it’s ok if your daughter told you she was gang bang by 10 guys and thought it was fun. You keep trying to turn this around like it’s something to be proud RN. Then you said “I” lose respect for them. Tell me RN what do you call a respectable lady or man.

Where I grew up at in the states a lot of young men sale drugs you know blow, crack cocaine etc...They feel its an means to an end. They respect the hell out of themseleves and feel justified in their actions...but others think different...

[George90]

Obama would never be in the position he is now if generations of passionate black activists hadn't done the groundwork. What you're saying is that we should focus on our own lives and let someone else do the hard yards. But who? If every one of us thought that way, nothing would ever change! It's like that By-stander Syndrome, where people just stand around and wait, assuming that someone else in the group is going to go to the dying man's aid. If EVERYONE thinks that, nobody helps and the man dies. Somebody has to think outside the square.


THAT is precisely what I am saying. Let somebody do the hard work - why should YOU be the one? That is what I mean by being practical and pragmatic.

This is a VERY short-term and immature way of thinking. Ultimately, it is self-defeating. In feeding yourself and keeping yourself alive today at the cost of the environment, degrades your ability to continue feeding yourself and staying alive in the long run. At the point when the environment can no longer support farming, breathing, etc., your ability to feed yourself and stay alive fails. You and everyone else dies! Congratulations!

As for this attitude being part of some sort of Eastern philosophy, I have my doubts. China in the past few years has reversed its policy regarding tolerating the theft of intellectual property. (According to your way of thinking, let someone else do the hard work of coming up with new ideas and inventions, then you just steal and copy them.) China was finding that NO ONE in its society was coming up with any new ideas to solve its problems because they were so used to stealing them from others. But others' ideas may not be so good for China. In addition, the Chinese who came up with new ideas ALWAYS LEFT FOR THE WEST so those ideas would not be stolen!

The Chinese government finally realized the harm their shortsightedness was causing to themselves and is now enforcing patent and copyright laws.

I pity anyone who is foolish enough to become your business partner, and even worse, your life partner. How many Asian women would tolerate such a lazy husband?????

[Dickhead]

Why is Obama "black" if his mother was white and his father was black? Why does that make him any more black than white? I don't understand this. Also I promise not to comment on the politics of any country I have never even been to. Now back to the regularly scheduled topic.

"How would you feel if your child told you they wanted to be a prostitute? Can you look me in the eye and tell me it’s ok if your daughter told you she was gang bang by 10 guys and thought it was fun."

These statements show ignorance. Getting "gang bang" by ten guys does not mean any prostitution was involved. And, what is wrong with a woman enjoying being fucked by 10 guys? I would enjoy fucking 10 women if I were actually capable of doing so. What does that have to do with prostitution? Is an orgy prostitution? No.

Everybody always bring up this "what if your daughter" shit. It is ridiculous because gay or straight, pro or not, male or female, very few people talk about their private sex lives with either their parents or their children. I think that for deep seated cultural reasons, when parents and children discuss sex it should be in general and de-personalized terms. I think parents should talk about sex with their kids, and frankly, and often, but not in terms of who did what with which and to whom.

But if my daughter (I don't have kids) said she had been gang banged by 10 guys and thought it was fun, the first thing discussed would be birth control, the second thing safe sex, the third thing would be was she under the influence, the fourth thing would be did she consent every time. I would try to do all this non-judgementally and keep an open mind and an open dialogue.

[Warbucks]

Why is Obama "black" if his mother was white and his father was black? Why does that make him any more black than white? I don't understand this. Also I promise not to comment on the politics of any country I have never even been to. Now back to the regularly scheduled topic.

"How would you feel if your child told you they wanted to be a prostitute? Can you look me in the eye and tell me it’s ok if your daughter told you she was gang bang by 10 guys and thought it was fun."

These statements show ignorance. Getting "gang bang" by ten guys does not mean any prostitution was involved. And, what is wrong with a woman enjoying being fucked by 10 guys? I would enjoy fucking 10 women if I were actually capable of doing so. What does that have to do with prostitution? Is an orgy prostitution? No.

Everybody always bring up this "what if your daughter" shit. It is ridiculous because gay or straight, pro or not, male or female, very few people talk about their private sex lives with either their parents or their children. I think that for deep seated cultural reasons, when parents and children discuss sex it should be in general and de-personalized terms. I think parents should talk about sex with their kids, and frankly, and often, but not in terms of who did what with which and to whom.

But if my daughter (I don't have kids) said she had been gang banged by 10 guys and thought it was fun, the first thing discussed would be birth control, the second thing safe sex, the third thing would be was she under the influence, the fourth thing would be did she consent every time. I would try to do all this non-judgementally and keep an open mind and an open dialogue.

Ignorance in terms of what? No need to become condescending and say one party is ignorant or showing ignorance. We disagree Dickhead simple as that. You would be alright with your child allowing herself to be used and discarded like toilet paper I would not.


But then I can stomach a lot of mental images now that I have been with 450 hookers, some of whom we were passing around among our social circle, some of whom I fucked immediately after someone else I knew fucked her, and so forth. I just don't care any more.

Man I think you are just past caring and thats cool but I am not.


Prostitution may not include gang bangs. But does include multiple sex partners from all walks of life. An increased risk of STDS and violence. We all know some mongers are not distinguished gentlemen such as ourselves. Also when some one told me or others around me to act like man I know what that meant so what is it to act like a lady? Fuck the wheels off anything moving?

On this forum there was a guy who made a young lady eat the semen off some bread he and some guys had ejaculated on. I guess some of you find that to be just fine? :) I have slept with women from Tashkent to Tokyo but maybe just maybe I have not lost all my virtue just yet.

[Dickhead]

Ignorance in terms of "fucking women from Tokyo to Tashkent" but then discarding the possibility a woman might enjoy fucking ten guys, or fucking men from Tokyo to Tashkent. Ignorance in terms of "fucking women from Tokyo to Tashkent" and not seeing the similarity between this and an increased risk of STD due to fucking women from all walks of life. That kind of ignorance.

So what is "condescending" about that?

Now as to the bread thing. I have never made any woman do anything she did not want to do. If a woman asked me to come on bread so she could eat it, I might, if it was nice soft fresh bread. I don't come on a woman's clothes or in her hair or in her food without prior permission. Now if she is sucking my cock, she should know what the ultimate outcome might be, and I don't ask permission. But if she says, "Don't come in my mouth," then I don't.

I did not read the bread post and don't plan to but it does not sound like anything I would be interested in.

You have an obvious and blatant double standard, which many men do, and which I do not respect. You can't see that criticizing a woman for "fucking the wheels off anything moving" when you have "fucked women from Tokyo to Tashkent" is total hypocrisy. There are a lot of guys like that. That whole attitude just makes it harder for everyone to have lots of good, healthy sex.

I had sex with a prostitute today. I think it worked well for both parties. We have known each other for years. So I fucked her, then I came in her mouth (which she enjoys), then we chatted a bit about this and that, then I fucked her some more, then she blew me some more. Then our allotted time was up, so we disregarded the knock and kissed for another five minutes. Then I paid her, said good-bye, and left. I did not use her any more than she used me, and I don't think of her as toilet paper to be discarded. In fact I have not discarded her. I will fuck her again although I don't know when. She is tremendously good at sex and she cannot make $12 an hour at any other job in this country right now, so I think it is an honest, fair deal that benefits both parties. She is a nice, honest, attractive, fun woman. I don't see where toilet paper enters the equation.

Me, for my $30, (the difference between the $30 and the $12 being the house cut), I can't see how I could have spent it more wisely. I am not hurting for money but I am not rich either, so I spend my money wisely. Unless of course I had been able to come twice but that gets harder and harder as the years go by. She sure as hell wanted me to, and sure as hell tried, and I sure as hell wanted to, and sure as hell tried. We both had big smiles on our faces as we said our good-byes. I have not asked her why she chose this particular job but she appears to enjoy the work. Fifteen of my friends have fucked her too and say the same thing.

You don't understand = ignorance. Not an insult. Maybe you will come to understand one day.

Cheers,

DH

[SE Asia Joe]

This is a VERY short-term and immature way of thinking. Ultimately, it is self-defeating. In feeding yourself and keeping yourself alive today at the cost of the environment, degrades your ability to continue feeding yourself and staying alive in the long run. At the point when the environment can no longer support farming, breathing, etc., your ability to feed yourself and stay alive fails. You and everyone else dies! Congratulations!
Again a perfect example of the idealistic nonsense coming out of someone who has, perhaps, had the benefit of a coddled existence. I don't know where you live at or what your station in life is - but I'd rather suspect that your thinking could only have been formed from at least a basic poverty safety net and government welfare mechanism.

The majority of the world does NOT have such a safety net - and the majority of the world's population can only rely on their own initiative and labour. These are the same people you and I compete against - for the same resources, the same farm produce, the same water, the same energy etc that we all need. What chance do you and your idealistic mind set have against such forces in this our world? Yes, I've watched "Inconvenience Truth", read up as best as I can about the problems - and solutions - for the world and even been moved to despair about the present state of the world - but I still need to keep my eyes firmly fixed on a more immediate and pressing need: that of my own family.

THAT is the reality of the world as it is now - and it is precisely the reason why I predict that the Western world will soon decline and pale in relative importance. Too damn many bleeding heart liberals, environmentalists and other assorted "The world is coming to an end" proselytizers who don’t instead go out and start working – who are unfortunately more than adequately coddled and provided for by the Nanny state.

Do the oil producing countries give a damn about how the West squanders energy and degrade their own environment? Not likely, I'd think - and are instead just concentrating on getting ever higher oil prices....and accumulating the wealth - and control - of the world. Does China care what the social ramifications to the Western world are, of whatever policies that they decide upon at any given time? NO is the resounding answer as all they care about is the survival AND empowerment of their own country.

No…. the West has become too damn idealistic. Very unfortunate I say. And going back to the topic you bring up – No – YOU die, I’ll survive. Sorry – but that is how it is in the REAL world.
....continued.....//

[SE Asia Joe]

As for this attitude being part of some sort of Eastern philosophy, I have my doubts. China in the past few years has reversed its policy regarding tolerating the theft of intellectual property. (According to your way of thinking, let someone else do the hard work of coming up with new ideas and inventions, then you just steal and copy them.) China was finding that NO ONE in its society was coming up with any new ideas to solve its problems because they were so used to stealing them from others. But others' ideas may not be so good for China. In addition, the Chinese who came up with new ideas ALWAYS LEFT FOR THE WEST so those ideas would not be stolen!

The Chinese government finally realized the harm their shortsightedness was causing to themselves and is now enforcing patent and copyright laws.
This is again a perfect example of the foolishness of most Western Thinkers. You point out rightly that China has supposedly started to enforce copyright laws – but the reality is – Has it? Sure it enforces copyright laws when it protects THEIR own products and patents – but for the Western companies?? You gotta be kidding! Walk down any street in china and you’ll be able toget any variety of copy DVD’s, computer programs, fake LV, Gucci and whatever popular Western brand you can think of….with only the occasional “show raids” being conducted (and Oh yeah – there’s gonna be lots more of these shows leading up to the Olympics – good Press!!). Meanwhile all these fake Viagra, Rolexes, Marlboro, brake parts etc etc still flood the West – on your streets, in your e-mal inboxes, and nearest china Towns. Yeah – copyright protection! The Chinese government attitude is “Why should we as a country spend our own money to hire on custom staff, to go on raids paid by us, to be contested at our expense in our courts – just so that Bill Gates can earn a few more billions? Hell, he’s got more money than us, why should we do his work at his beck and call – screw him. What do we get out of this nonsense?” And then reverse – “Oh we’d better protect that Hangzhou entrepreneur who has that G2000 brand registered in China in 2002 (never mind that G2000 had already been in business in Hong Kong since the 1970’s and that they started stores all over China in the late 1980’s!). And the latest salvo just announced today – that China is going to go after Microsoft for possible violation against their anti-Trust laws!!
YES – probably short sightedness on a lot of things happening in this world – but that sight is sooooooo far away (at least in China and and the rest of the still developing world’s eyes) that it’s ridiculous to even worry about it. First, our own survival, forget about everything else until there is a real and immediate need – we’ll take care of it then.


I pity anyone who is foolish enough to become your business partner, and even worse, your life partner. How many Asian women would tolerate such a lazy husband?????

Is there really a need for you to express such bile and denigration? Look – you have your opinion I have mine – nothing more nothing less; is there a need for name calling and the such just because we have differing opinion?

SEAJ

[SE Asia Joe]

Again, I should probably qualify my degree of disclosure. But in the real world, I'm not 'out' as an ex-hooker. Only one of my oldest friends knows I used to work. My last partner was the only partner I've ever told. Most of my advocacy work is done under the strictest of confidentiality, or completely anonymously. . It's not like I run around with a big scarlet letter on my forehead!

My problem (and the main reason for my continued advocacy) is that I don't have complete control over my disclosure. My name is on a police register of sex workers, which doesn't distinguish whether you're still working or left the industry 20 years ago. That register is the biggest threat to my future happiness and while it exists, I'll never be able to just 'forget about it' and 'move on'.

.
Hey RN - I understand now and do feel for you. BUT, and this is a big BUT, it still does not justify/give rise to a need for you to disclose your past to anyone. I still say your past is your past - of course UNLESS you yourself keep bringing it up again and again.
As for the Police Register - please let me apologize first but I still do need to give you my hard nosed take on the situation.
- Why should your name NOT remain on the register? You've committed a crime having been a prostitute. The law was on YOUR country's statute books (whether correctly or not) but laws - especially in the Western World - usually reflect the majority's collective thoughts on all matters. If the majority think that stealing is a criminal act, then there will be laws against stealing - the same as hooking. As an example of the ridiculousness of the law - but that it is what it is because the majority (or at least who the lawmakers think are and/or are lobbied by) wants it - in Japan, providing Oral sex for pay is NOT considered against the law whilst intercourse is definitely a no-no.
- Anybody who had committed a crime rightly belongs in a police register. Too bad - you did the crime, you do the time - or in this case, you get your name kept on.
- Having said that though, I would still strongly suggest that you leave this arena totally and get on with your life as if your hooking experience never happened. Get on with your life without any guilt about suppressing such experience and/or memory of such. tha's the only way I see that you can move on in life and this is precisely the method employed by most Eastern ex-WG's
- If it so happens that your "past' comes back to haunt you - say your next BF finds out and challenge you - then you ask him - is this anything I should have been proud of and disclose to you? I am what I am right now and not what I was. What am I to you now? Not what I was - which has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Just IMHO

SEAJ

[Warbucks]

Ignorance in terms of "fucking women from Tokyo to Tashkent" but then discarding the possibility a woman might enjoy fucking ten guys, or fucking men from Tokyo to Tashkent. Ignorance in terms of "fucking women from Tokyo to Tashkent" and not seeing the similarity between this and an increased risk of STD due to fucking women from all walks of life. That kind of ignorance.

So what is "condescending" about that?

Now as to the bread thing. I have never made any woman do anything she did not want to do. If a woman asked me to come on bread so she could eat it, I might, if it was nice soft fresh bread. I don't come on a woman's clothes or in her hair or in her food without prior permission. Now if she is sucking my cock, she should know what the ultimate outcome might be, and I don't ask permission. But if she says, "Don't come in my mouth," then I don't.

I did not read the bread post and don't plan to but it does not sound like anything I would be interested in.

You have an obvious and blatant double standard, which many men do, and which I do not respect. You can't see that criticizing a woman for "fucking the wheels off anything moving" when you have "fucked women from Tokyo to Tashkent" is total hypocrisy. There are a lot of guys like that. That whole attitude just makes it harder for everyone to have lots of good, healthy sex.

I had sex with a prostitute today. I think it worked well for both parties. We have known each other for years. So I fucked her, then I came in her mouth (which she enjoys), then we chatted a bit about this and that, then I fucked her some more, then she blew me some more. Then our allotted time was up, so we disregarded the knock and kissed for another five minutes. Then I paid her, said good-bye, and left. I did not use her any more than she used me, and I don't think of her as toilet paper to be discarded. In fact I have not discarded her. I will fuck her again although I don't know when. She is tremendously good at sex and she cannot make $12 an hour at any other job in this country right now, so I think it is an honest, fair deal that benefits both parties. She is a nice, honest, attractive, fun woman. I don't see where toilet paper enters the equation.

Me, for my $30, (the difference between the $30 and the $12 being the house cut), I can't see how I could have spent it more wisely. I am not hurting for money but I am not rich either, so I spend my money wisely. Unless of course I had been able to come twice but that gets harder and harder as the years go by. She sure as hell wanted me to, and sure as hell tried, and I sure as hell wanted to, and sure as hell tried. We both had big smiles on our faces as we said our good-byes. I have not asked her why she chose this particular job but she appears to enjoy the work. Fifteen of my friends have fucked her too and say the same thing.

You don't understand = ignorance. Not an insult. Maybe you will come to understand one day.

Cheers,

DH

Yeah it is a double standard. I feel women should be held to higher standard then men. I am not trying to change anyone views I don’t care if a six was nine. I am going to keep doing what I do and I hope everyone do what they do. Everyone got their own life to live.

[Opebo]

Yeah it is a double standard. I feel women should be held to higher standard then men... Everyone got their own life to live.

Well, according to your scheme, men do; women not so much.

[Dickhead]

Hey South East Asia Joe, the sex worker registry RN is on has nothing to do with criminal behavior and prostitution is not illegal where she lives. But it is regulated and she has to register, just like barbers in my state. So you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

[George90]

Again a perfect example of the idealistic nonsense coming out of someone who has, perhaps, had the benefit of a coddled existence. I don't know where you live at or what your station in life is - but I'd rather suspect that your thinking could only have been formed from at least a basic poverty safety net and government welfare mechanism.

The majority of the world does NOT have such a safety net - and the majority of the world's population can only rely on their own initiative and labour. These are the same people you and I compete against - for the same resources, the same farm produce, the same water, the same energy etc that we all need. What chance do you and your idealistic mind set have against such forces in this our world? Yes, I've watched "Inconvenience Truth", read up as best as I can about the problems - and solutions - for the world and even been moved to despair about the present state of the world - but I still need to keep my eyes firmly fixed on a more immediate and pressing need: that of my own family.

No…. the West has become too damn idealistic. Very unfortunate I say. And going back to the topic you bring up – No – YOU die, I’ll survive. Sorry – but that is how it is in the REAL world.
....continued.....//

It is precisely the lack of the safety net you denigrate which forces most people living near the edge to focus so intently on the short-term at the expense of the long-term. You are correct that I did grow up in a country with extensive government 'coddling'. I received free primary and secondary education, subsidized university education, and free health care. (These things were not really 'free', they were paid for through taxes. But since my parents were not wealthy, I received more value in government services than my parents paid in taxes.)

An example I offer is the case of Haiti. Haiti is the poorest nation in the western hemisphere and one of the poorest in the world. Why? Well, that can be debated. I say that the Duvalier family, looking out for only itself, as you advocate, looted the country and left it unable to support its population. So the people did exactly what you describe. They looked out for their own survival and worried about the long-term implications only when the long-term came up and hit them in the face. Too poor to buy oil, the people cut down trees for firewood. Soon almost all the trees in Haiti were cut down. Its mountains were bare with nothing to hold the soil. When it rained there were mudslides that demolished houses below.

The came the hurricanes Katrina and Rita. And boy! Did the long-term ever come up and hit the short-term thinking Haitians right in the face! The downpours caused MASSIVE mudslides that buried an ENTIRE town and pushed 3,000 Haitians into the Caribbean sea or buried them under tons of mud. 3,000 DEAD IN ONE FELL SWOOP!!!!

That is the realism of which you are so proud. I'll take idealism, thank you!

[George90]

To make this post relevant to the thread, I will offer another example of young prostitutes.

How long is the useful working life of a prostitute? Can she (or he) be expected to have rising earnings to age 55, as do lawyers, accountants, doctors, teachers, police officers, etc? Clearly, no. A young prostitute must prepare for a time when she retires or retrains to do something else.

If you are correct, Asian prostitutes do not do this, but simply work in the moment. Therefore, I imagine that there are a rather large number of unemployed and depressed older prostitutes degrading themselves for a few dollars a week. In the US, the idealists like Jenna Jameson and Traci Lords, (Yes, pornstars, but they are still getting paid to have sex.), marketed themselves and created careers after sex work. There was also the actress in 'Behind the Green Door' who made some mainstrem movies but her name escapes me at the moment.

In Mexico, there is an assisted living facility for old former prostitutes. The news article descrbing it said that it was started by young prostitutes who saw these women homeless and correctly said to themselves 'But for the grace of God, there go I.' They didn't wait for some else to do the heavy work. Before their very eyes was the result of that strategy and that didn't working out very well. They planned for the long-term by starting this facility now. Some of them may need it in 30 years.

[SE Asia Joe]

Hey South East Asia Joe, the sex worker registry RN is on has nothing to do with criminal behavior and prostitution is not illegal where she lives. But it is regulated and she has to register, just like barbers in my state. So you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
OK - even presuming you are right about RN and her country/State - what I say still remains correct.
If the LAWS of her country states that such a register is to be kept - then her name stays. I have had licences and registrations for quite a few of my endeavours in the past - and records of such licences remains on the books. It doesn't matter if some of my ventures were succesful or not - or perhaps even disastrous and thus a "blot' on my name - the record remains.
Like I said, in many cases the Law is an ass - that is not even worthy of discussion - but the law is the law and it was promulgated and enforced with the suppossed wishes of the majority. Citizens of each jurisdiction should be well aware of what the law says.... and either stick within the law, try to rally support to change it OR break it with knowledge that "you do the crime, you do the time" or in the case of RN - have ner name in the Prostitute register as that is the law. Sorry to be hard nosed about it - but that is the way it is.

SEAJ

[Dickhead]

Although you did not know what you were talking about and were completely wrong, I don't have a problem with Rubby having to stay on the register; she knew the deal going in. I too have to remain on the rolls as a former professional (whatever) even after I surrender my license; I am not sure that is right or wrong but I knew it when I applied for the license. It is obvious reading your posts here and elsewhere that you are just plain not a good person. Karma will get you sooner or later.

[SE Asia Joe]

To make this post relevant to the thread, I will offer another example of young prostitutes.

How long is the useful working life of a prostitute? If you are correct, Asian prostitutes do not do this, but simply work in the moment. .
Pragmatism and practicality - that is the by-word that I would venture to offer as being the mantra of young ladies in Asia who are forced by circumstances to prostitute themselves. And in that context, most of these prostitutes will work only to such time as they've already earned what they set out to do in the first place - whether to build up a nest egg, or to put a younger sibling thru school or to help the family through a rough patch or even another economic plane. After such, they would usually resume their 'normal' lives.

OK you may well say that this is total BS - that there are a lot of old gals still working away at trying to sell their body - but I'd be bold enough to say that this certainly would not have been their game plan when they first started it. Could be greed, wanting to continue the good life, a bad BF or pimp who just force them to continue, gambling or drug habit etc - could be any number of things - but when have you actually seen OLD Eastern/oriental hookers - except perhaps in some Western countries - where these older WG usually go to when they pass their "shelf life" in Asia!
SEAJ

[SE Asia Joe]

Again you resort to talking about "crimes" where none exist. I don't have a problem with Rubby having to stay on the register; she knew the deal going in. But your bullshit about crime, crime, crime is ridiculous. But it is obvious reading your posts here and elsewhere that you are just plain not a good person. So fuck off.
Such bile - where is this from?? You have an opinion and I have one - do you really need to resort to expletives and name calling??/ Tsk Tsk Tsk

SEAJ

[Dickhead]

You don't even know an expletive from name calling. Where did I call you any names? Fuck off.

[SE Asia Joe]

Although you did not know what you were talking about and were completely wrong, I don't have a problem with Rubby having to stay on the register; she knew the deal going in. I too have to remain on the rolls as a former professional (whatever) even after I surrender my license; I am not sure that is right or wrong but I knew it when I applied for the license. It is obvious reading your posts here and elsewhere that you are just plain not a good person. Karma will get you sooner or later.
NOW what are you talking about??? Who said you had any problem with Ruby (who is this? RN?) having to stay on the register - it's RN herself who exporessed such - not you.
And how is it that I am "just a plain not a good person??" and your best wishes for Karma to get me sooner or later.
Look-it - if you have a problem with me elsewhere and for whatever reason - please handle it at the relevant time and on the relevant thread/forum/ scenario - and quit trying to slag me off here. This is not only juvenile behavior, it is really stupid.

SEAJ

[SE Asia Joe]

You don't even know an expletive from name calling. Where did I call you any names? Fuck off.
And...... what pray tell.... is the Fxxk word you are so fond of using?
And to have to resort to grammar and English word usage etc..... Tsk Tsk Tsk.... like I said, just goes to show what you are - doesn't it?
SEAJ

[Dickhead]

Fuck you, fuck your dog, fuck the horse you rode in on. You post all over the place and it is never about pussy. My guess is you've never had any.

[Piper1]

Fuck you, fuck your dog, fuck the horse you rode in on. You post all over the place and it is never about pussy. Don't beat around the bush.

[SE Asia Joe]

It is precisely the lack of the safety net you denigrate which forces most people living near the edge to focus so intently on the short-term at the expense of the long-term.
An example I offer is the case of Haiti. That is the realism of which you are so proud. I'll take idealism, thank you!
First I think I'll just ignore that appropriately named Dickhead - after all, the best way to handle ignorance is just to ignore it.
On "safety net" NO, I do NOT denigrate it nor do I think that it is a bad thing. It's a good thing and it's really required in just about all situtations - but it is the actual fact of the matter that I refer to - in that it really does NOT exist in many parts of the world.
On Haiti - yes, I do agree 100% that is the eventual and natural course of events when most people do what I suggest - but what I am talking about is - what other choice is there?? For the Haitians who either starve or cut down the trees, who either resort to actions that they cannot be proud of - or see their family perish?? What other choice do they have?? Be idealistic like you suggest?? And die? Or survive first and worry about the future after they've had their meal? You being coddled wherever you are can AFFORD idealism - those of us who actually lives in such conditions do NOT have that luxury.
SEAJ

[Warbucks]

Well, according to your scheme, men do; women not so much.

Call me what you want a hypocrite or a double standard spewing dragon. I visit sex workers but I wouldn’t want a family member doing the shit same as I wouldn’t want a family member hooked on drugs or addicted to gambling. To me prostitution is a dire career choice the same as drug dealing. That’s my opinion. For me it’s not a social stigma or a religious idiosyncrasy it’s my damn opinion. As I said people can live their lives how they see fit but as I said and I am saying again I hope to never hear “D’état your cousin is giving blow jobs for 10 bucks.” Any one who would be ok with that is a heartless mother fucker..

[Warbucks]

Okay, I'll give her 12 bucks, but that's my last offer.

It's an emotional issue, whatever people say. I think D'Etat is in love.

PS - is your cousin cute?

Exactly... Thanks for making my point...

What does love have to do with thinking prostitution is NOT an excellent career choice?

[Rubber Nursey]

re The Vice register: DH was right when he said prostitution is not illegal in my state and sex workers are being added to what amounts to a 'criminal register', even though they are not criminals. But he is incorrect about it being a regulatory obligation. While some other Australian states have laws requiring registration, in MY state there is NO legal requirement for sex workers to register. In fact, the register itself is ILLEGAL. It violates several privacy and information laws and many lawyers, human/civil rights advocates and even some politicians have demanded the practice be abandoned.

I agree that if I had voluntarily handed over my personal details as a condition of employment, fully aware of the consequences of that action, I wouldn't really have a right to complain. But that's not how it happens here. I found myself on the register after Vice ran my license plates in a brothel carpark, then came inside and demanded my drivers license to confirm ownership of the vehicle. That's just one of many sneaky tactics the cops use to get us onto the register. Sometimes they're so sneaky that girls don't know their name has ended up on it at all. Other times they use outright harassment and bullying, with threats of disclosure to the girl's family or university or non-sex industry employer. We don't have the right to refuse, we have no control over where the information is kept or who has access to it, we can't be removed from it and we have no legal protections when the information is used against us.

[Rubber Nursey]

Why is Obama "black" if his mother was white and his father was black?... Also I promise not to comment on the politics of any country I have never even been to.
If that was a cheeky shot at me, DH, I wasn't commenting on the politics but the principle. Rightly or wrongly, Obama is being touted as the first 'black' presidential candidate and I don't believe he would be in that position if black activists hadn't laid the foundations for him. Californian gay couples are getting married today, thanks to the gay activists who fought for the right to legally recognised unions. I got pissed in the saloon bar of my local pub the other day, thanks to my 'sisters' who fought for equal rights for women.

My point was that social change doesn't just magically happen of its own accord. Someone has to stand up and say 'I can't live like this any more' and set the wheels in motion. SEAJoe said he would rather reap the benefits of emancipation/equal rights (like Obama) than die young fighting for a cause (like Martin Luther King). I'm just saying that without people like King, people like Obama would have no benefits to reap.

[Rubber Nursey]

how would you feel if your child told you they wanted to be a prostitute?
honestly...i would make sure they weren't being forced or coerced into making the decision, i'd question them about their chosen working environment to make sure it's safe, i'd put them in touch with the relevant health and support services and then i'd step back and be ready to catch them if they fall. like most parents, all i want for my children is happiness and safety. if they were fully informed (including all the bad stuff, like stigma and discrimination, etc) and still believed they would be safe and happy in prostitution, then i would back them 100%.


can you look me in the eye and tell me it’s ok if your daughter told you she was gang bang by 10 guys and thought it was fun. you keep trying to turn this around like it’s something to be proud rn.
like dh said, i doubt my kids would share specifics of their sexual exploits with me! but if i had a daughter (which i don't) and she did say that to me, i'd do exactly what dh said...make sure she wasn't coerced or raped, make sure she used protection, make sure she doesn't feel bad about herself for what she did. if she really was happy with her decision and didn't put her sexual/mental health at risk by doing it, then i'd be totally fine with it.

you're confusing my being 'ok' with it, with being 'proud' of it. i'm hardly gonna say "you had a gang bang with ten guys? oh, i'm so proud of you, baby!" but, as unpopular as this opinion seems to be, i would be proud that she wasn't afraid of her sexuality, that she took 'ownership' of her behaviour and her choices and that she enforced condom use or whatever for her own protection.

it's the same for me and prostitution. am i 'proud' that i spent my days having sex with strangers? not really - that was just part of the job description. but i am proud that i financially supported my family alone, that i conducted my job professionally, that i was loved by my clients, workmates and employers, etc. and that i never compromised my own morals and ethics in my work (ie. i never did anything i didn't want to do, i never did it for less money than i thought i was worth, i never lied, cheated or stole from anyone).


tell me rn what do you call a respectable lady or man.
as above. someone who doesn't lie, cheat or steal. someone whose decisions don't negatively impact on others. someone who is honest, loyal and true to themselves.


where i grew up at in the states a lot of young men sale drugs you know blow, crack cocaine etc...
drugs are an illegal substance that (no offence to the users amongst you) can have devastating effects on the other person involved in the transaction. the test is when you take the money out of the equation - drugs are still illegal and dangerous; sex is perfectly natural and unregulated. a sex worker takes on personal risk and a drug dealer sells personal risk. it's a completely different thing.

[Dickhead]

I don't know what Coup d'Etat does for a living. I have done a lot of things for a living. I was a cook for many years. Was I proud of that? Not really, but I wasn't ashamed of it, and I was a damn good cook. Coup d'Etat seems like a guy who would order two eggs over easy with hash browns, get a perfect plate of over easies and hash browns, and then go tell his homeys how much better he was for eating the food than the cook was for preparing the food. But I am not surprised. I have met hundreds of American men with these horseshit sexual attitudes. A lot of them are OK guys who have just been brainwashed by the system, and are not particularly perceptive or intelligent. RN is very intelligent and perceptive, and thinks things through at a higher level. Me, I just drink a lot of beer and basically think with my dick, but I don't have a double standard like Coup d'Etat. And, chances are I have fucked his cousin.

[Warbucks]

Fuck you, fuck your dog, fuck the horse you rode in on. You post all over the place and it is never about pussy. My guess is you've never had any.

This says lot about you.



Show me a woman who has been married three times and was in love with all of her husbands. I certainly have not ever met any. But then I can stomach a lot of mental images now that I have been with 450 hookers, some of whom we were passing around among our social circle, some of whom I fucked immediately after someone else I knew fucked her, and so forth. I just don't care any more.

450 huh? :) a stunning achievement. Perhaps your fucking with reckless abandone and life as a cook has took its toll. You are poster boy for mental unstableness.


I don't know what Coup d'Etat does for a living. I have done a lot of things for a living. I was a cook for many years. Was I proud of that? Not really, but I wasn't ashamed of it, and I was a damn good cook. Coup d'Etat seems like a guy who would order two eggs over easy with hash browns, get a perfect plate of over easies and hash browns, and then go tell his homeys how much better he was for eating the food than the cook was for preparing the food. But I am not surprised. I have met hundreds of American men with these horseshit sexual attitudes. A lot of them are OK guys who have just been brainwashed by the system, and are not particularly perceptive or intelligent. RN is very intelligent and perceptive, and thinks things through at a higher level. Me, I just drink a lot of beer and basically think with my dick, but I don't have a double standard like Coup d'Etat. And, chances are I have fucked his cousin.

What I does what I do for living has to do with any of this. I am a civilian worker for the United States Government. Horseshit attitude....? No its my opinion.

I measure intelligence by a person ability to do intricate work. You measure intelligence by a person's ability to shine shit and call it gold. My homies? Was that a shot at wit or is the bigot in you shinning through? I live in PI in a upscale gated community and I left my "homies" back in the US sometime ago.

If you did fuck my cousin I really feel sorry for her and men like you are definitely why I think prostitution is a raw deal any women that has to lay under you for a few dollars I pity her...

[DJ FourMoney]

If that was a cheeky shot at me, DH, I wasn't commenting on the politics but the principle. Rightly or wrongly, Obama is being touted as the first 'black' presidential candidate and I don't believe he would be in that position if black activists hadn't laid the foundations for him. Californian gay couples are getting married today, thanks to the gay activists who fought for the right to legally recognised unions. I got pissed in the saloon bar of my local pub the other day, thanks to my 'sisters' who fought for equal rights for women.

My point was that social change doesn't just magically happen of its own accord. Someone has to stand up and say 'I can't live like this any more' and set the wheels in motion. SEAJoe said he would rather reap the benefits of emancipation/equal rights (like Obama) than die young fighting for a cause (like Martin Luther King). I'm just saying that without people like King, people like Obama would have no benefits to reap.

Obama is only being touted as "Black" by the Media because in this country there is the ONE DROP rule that applies only to Black People.

If your Caucasian and Asian, your Euro-Asian.

If your Caucasian and Latino/Latina, your still considered "White" in many circles.

Have one ounce of Black blood and you are considered of Black ancestry which is ridiculous.

If you really wanna be frank, we're all from Africa, making us all Africans but Caucasians have successfully buried that notion.

They say Obama is black to scare that small but no less easily led part of the population that is not ready for any man of a dark skin tone than his own to be President.

Don't get me started there's plenty wrong with this Presidential Campaign. Plenty wrong with US based Multi-National Companies I know some members of this board are EMPLOYEES of that are guilty of CRIMINAL misconduct around the world.

There is nothing wrong with RH being an activist and I praise her for it, its better than many of you have done lately and DH is apart of that sect of men in Argentina that help some of the poor children in that area of BA.

What do poor countries have in common?

They have the Russians, Americans or Europeans involved in their history somewhere guilty of CRIMINAL MISDEEDS, the beheading of millions of men, women and children and forcing women and young girls with no job skills and little education to sell their bodies.

More than 70% of the threads on this forum are dedicated to the plundering of these countries and people.

You expect sex to be downright cheap and give you the pleasure of the Girlfriend Experience for the least amount of outlay.

Then try and convey some holier than now attitude about the P4P game and who chooses to do what and the nerve to have an opinion about it.

People choose what they want to do ultimately and you have no right to look down your Western nose at these people.

I have family members that have been involved in P4P and SO FUCKING WHAT, that's what they felt they wanted to do, nobody forced it on them.

That's what being lucky enough to be born in a country that is not constantly struggling or war-torn, or what is effectively known as a "3rd World Country"

[Rubber Nursey]

RN is very intelligent and perceptive, and thinks things through at a higher level.

I measure intelligence by a person ability to do intricate work. You measure intelligence by a person's ability to shine shit and call it gold.
Gee, thanks.

[Dickhead]

I was not aware "homeys" was a bigoted term. I don't know Coup d'Etat's ethnic background. To me homeys are just whoever you hang out with in your neighborhood, i.e., kicking back with your homeys. Your group of local friends.

If this is a "bigoted" term please enlighten me as to what it means and to whom it is offensive, and why, and I won't use it any more. The first time I can remember hearing it was from a female longshore worker who told me she was a "home girl from San Pedro (California)." She was white. Later I had a friend who would leave messages on my answering machine: "Home boy! Are you home, boy?" He was white. I am white. So I don't understand this. I thought it just meant neighbors or people who are from the same place.

[Dickhead]

I measure a person's intelligence by the ability to avoid intricate work.

[DJ FourMoney]

I was not aware "homeys" was a bigoted term. I don't know Coup d'Etat's ethnic background. To me homeys are just whoever you hang out with in your neighborhood, i.e., kicking back with your homeys. Your group of local friends.

If this is a "bigoted" term please enlighten me as to what it means and to whom it is offensive, and why, and I won't use it any more. The first time I can remember hearing it was from a female longshore worker who told me she was a "home girl from San Pedro (California)." She was white. Later I had a friend who would leave messages on my answering machine: "Home boy! Are you home, boy?" He was white. I am white. So I don't understand this. I thought it just meant neighbors or people who are from the same place.

Maybe he's confused...

Homey is not bigoted, its a term from Urban Culture but that's not the point, if he took offense too it, he has issues.

[Chocha Monger]

She's a very kinky girl
The kind you don't take home to mother
She will never let your spirits down
Once you get her off the street, ow girl
She likes the boys in the band
She says that I'm her all-time favorite
When I make my move to her room it's the right time
She's never hard to please
{Refrain}
That girl is pretty wild now
The girl's a super freak
The kind of girl you read about
In new-wave magazine
That girl is pretty kinky
The girl's a super freak
I really love to taste her
Every time we meet
She's all right, she's all right
That girl's all right with me, yeah
She's a super freak, super freak
She's super-freaky, yow
Super freak, super freak
She's a very special girl
The kind of girl you want to know
>From her head down to her toenails
Down to her feet, yeah
And she'll wait for me at backstage with her girlfriends
In a limousine
Going back in Chinatown
Three's not a crowd to her, she says
"Room 714, I'll be waiting"
When I get there she's got incense, wine and candles
It's such a freaky scene
{Refrain}
{Bridge}
Temptations sing!
Ohhhhh
Super freak, super freak
That girl's a super freak
Ohhhhh
She's a very kinky girl
The kind you don't take home to mother
She will never let your spirits down
Once you get her off the street, ow girl
Blow, Danny!

[Warbucks]

Maybe he's confused...

Homey is not bigoted, its a term from Urban Culture but that's not the point, if he took offense too it, he has issues.

I am not the one cursing people on a forum for having a difference of opinion. As in terms of "homies" being a bigoted term its depends on how it is used and by who. One night in Phuket ran into some Caucasians who went to throwing up the W with their hands and saying "what up what up" Now if I wasn't what I was I doubt they would have did this. Same thing happens to me in PI all the time by native Filipinos who watched a little bit too much MTV.


Marriage makes sense, even in America, just don't marry an American woman...

A grown ass American man who sits and dogs American women on a daily basis I would say has issues. What’s behind this hatred? My relatives are American women. Their not that bad. :)


You expect sex to be downright cheap and give you the pleasure of the Girlfriend Experience for the least amount of outlay.

Then try and convey some holier than now attitude about the P4P game and who chooses to do what and the nerve to have an opinion about it.

People choose what they want to do ultimately and you have no right to look down your Western nose at these people.

I have family members that have been involved in P4P and SO FUCKING WHAT, that's what they felt they wanted to do, nobody forced it on them.

That's what being lucky enough to be born in a country that is not constantly struggling or war-torn, or what is effectively known as a "3rd World Country"

Expensive or cheap makes no difference to me. I have mongered most in Dubai where on average an LT caper will run about $200. I am not a fan of the GFE. If I want that I have a GF.

Not holier then thou attitude... but just like I think selling drugs is ok I think buying certain drugs for use is terrible. Double standard...? You bet.

I don't look down but I don't look up to certain individuals either.

Yeah I have a lot of family members who were gangsters and nobody told them to do join a gang but I still thought it was fucked up.

Corrupt police, interclan warfare, drug dealing, prostitution, homeless children, no medical care available, indifferent local politicians, Extreme violence. I didn't experience any of that in a third world country. I experienced it all in the US in the city where I was born and bred.

[Dickhead]

"as in terms of "homies" being a bigoted term its depends on how it is used and by who."

bullshit. this might not be the place to discuss it but i don't care. there is one word, we all know what word i am talking about, and black people can use it to refer to each other with impunity, and (some) do so quite regularly, but if a white person uses it, all hell breaks loose. that is bullshit. if black people don't want it to be used, then black people shouldn't use it either. after a while maybe it would just die out.

there is another word that sounds like that word: "niggardly." look it up. it has no connection to race, color, creed, or national origin. it means "cheapskate." but racial hysteria has made its use unacceptable regardless.

so either everybody gets to use "homey" and that other word, or nobody gets to use it. you can't have it both ways. nobody owns those words. i use a certain allegedly derogatory term to refer to my ethnic background, and you can use it too. or, if i don't want you to use it, i need to stop using it myself.

now to get back to the subject. if we throw out forced prostitution and ****d prostitution and we get back to prostitution as in: do you want to fuck for money?; i have money and you have pussy, i need pussy and you need money, what exactly is immoral about that?

or what about the reverse? consider an ugly woman, or a woman in a foreign country where she can't speak the language. maybe she needs cock and has money and i have cock and need money. difference, of course, being that a woman can physically have sex without being sexually excited whereas a man cannot. advantage woman. i don't need money but if i did, could i fuck an ugly woman? i don't know. probably the answer depends on how long i have gone without sex. where i live now sex is readily available, similar to potato chips.

so then the argument is that sex becomes a "commodity." no. a commodity is an undifferentiated product, where all units are "fungible" or indistinguishable from one another. wheat, sugar, barrels of oil, ingots of metal are common examples. they only differ in grade. sex, even in the instance of prostitution, is not like that unless you make it like that. i have sex with prostitutes all the time. they are not the same. it is human interaction. some become friends. some i don't like and never want to see again. some i see for years. some are better than others. one teaspoon of sugar is not better than another teaspoon of sugar.

maybe for some guys, having sex with a prostitute is like putting a dollar in a vending machine and getting a can of soft drink. it isn't that way with me. to me it is a fun, enjoyable pastime. a hobby. i know how to play chess but i don't enjoy it that much. but if you offer me $100 to play you a game of chess, i might play you and i would try to give you a good game. and, i will try to enjoy myself while we play.

i don't have a daughter either but if i did i would not want her to become a prostitute, or a dishwasher, or a soldier in iraq, or a republican, or a pickpocket, or an ironworker, or a hare krishna. but in the end that is not my choice once she becomes an adult. it is her choice.

[Bango Cheito]

Back on topic....

I think truly SEAJ, no offense, that your attitude is one of abdicating our RESPONSIBILITY and DUTY as human beings. We are not just cogs in a massive machine, we are endowed with thinking minds and creatives wills and are SUPPOSED to use them.

I don't know of a single human civilization that wasn't created by and for humans, that is to say that wasn't the product of human willpower. It didn't happen by accident and it sure as hell didn't happen by nature. Hunter-gatherer people live within nature, all the rest of us live in UNNATURAL environments.

I actually think the human race WILL extinct itself if it doesn't seriously OVERHAUL all its major civilizations within the next 2-3 generations. We are at a very crucial point in our evolution. And everybody who just goes along for the ride and doesn't do anything proactive is WORSE than just a waste of space, they are helping to bring about the end of themselves, their children, and the whole human race. There's nothing "pragmatic" about the way we are carrying on right now. It's just downright DESTRUCTIVE.

And in a weird way, I think that re-organizing our sexual morality is a BIG part of what needs to be changed in civilization. People in general need the release of sex to be contented peacful creatures instead of creatures filled with an imbalance of energy and acting on it. And i think the "lowly" ***** plays a HUGE part in all of that.

As for my kids being prostitutes, I'd have no problem with them doing it, aside from worried about them being fucked with by pigs. Hopefully they'd have the sense to go somewhere where it's legal if that's what they really want to do.

And as far as I'm concerned the corner drug dealer may be an idiot, but the even BIGGER idiot is some idiot who works his or her life away at minimum wage and has NOTHING but misery and struggle to show for it. THOSE people get my REAL contempt.

[Dickhead]

People in general need the release of sex to be contented peacful creatures instead of creatures filled with an imbalance of energy

Precisely!

[Opebo]

The meaning of terms obviously comes from the identity and relationship of speaker, object, and listener. But more pointedly, the sting of racist, sexist, classist, and other pejorative terms comes from the very real power relationship between speaker and object.

For example, when a white says N., it is tremendously insulting, as it carries with it the actual power that whites have over blacks, as well as occasioning reminiscence to hundreds of years of abuse and murder actually perpetrated upon blacks by whites. By the same token it is impossible to create a really insulting word for white persons - honkey or WASP have no sting, as blacks have no power over whites.

[Jelly Donut]

What do poor countries have in common?

They have the Russians, Americans or Europeans involved in their history somewhere guilty of CRIMINAL MISDEEDS, the beheading of millions of men, women and children and forcing women and young girls with no job skills and little education to sell their bodies.



Americans have never been involved in "the beheading of millions of men, women and children". Beheading is something the French took up because they felt it was the most painless, effective way to deal with, generally, other Frenchmen.

Europeans and Americans have a mixed record on human rights, which makes them unique, in the sense that pretty much everyone on the planet else could not manage even a "mixed" record. The very idea of human rights across races and countries was developed considerably by Europeans, mostly in the wake of the first encounters with America. Check out Sublimis Deus (1537) or the life of Bartolome de Las Casas (1474-1566).

Americans invented the science of culture, along with the idea that you could look at a group of people without either assuming they needed to convert or idolizing their culture - "noble savage", "ancient Chinese wisdom" and all that.

Using these ideas against Americans and Europeans has a circular quality about it; it's useful to remember these concepts were developed in the West. You can chat humanism with Montezuma as much as you like; he's still going to cut out your daughter's heart with that obsidian knife. You are using Western ideas to attack with a very sweeping brush, without reflecting on the lack of alternatives.

The largest genocides so far are people killing other people who really are not that different from them in the first place - Germans killing other Germans and Eastern Europeans, Chinese killing other Chinese, Russians killing other Russians, Africans killing other Africans, Cambodians killing other Cambodians.

Prostitution "the world's oldest profession" it's been around since before recorded history - as was slavery and beheading. These and other brutal things can be found nearly everywhere, through history. The idea that things were morally and legally wrong was often created and moved forward by Europeans and Europeans in America.

[Dickhead]

Well spoken, JD. I don't think consensual prostitution is any more "brutal" than being a fry cook, though. So I don't know about that particular juxtaposition. I am not a WASP but if someone called me a "honky" I'd probably just laugh. But, I don't know the etymology behind that term. If somebody called me a WASP I'd be fairly insulted even though they would be wrong.

[George90]

there is another word that sounds like that word: "niggardly." look it up. it has no connection to race, color, creed, or national origin. it means "cheapskate." but racial hysteria has made its use unacceptable regardless.

i have seen the word 'niggardly' used quite often in the literature i had to read in high school. i agree that it had no connection to race, creed, or ethnicity. the context in which i saw it used was to describe something of poor quality, a poor performance, a lack of effort, and sometimes poor morals or values. for example, a factory worker who comes to work late, or drunk, does sloppy work, etc. would be descrbed as 'a niggardly worker' or 'had niggardly habits'.

that said, my dictionary does state that a 'niggard' is a miser or stingy person. i will also say that the literature in which i read that word was by british authors.

i strongly doubt there is any modern racial hysteria connected with the use of that word. rather, i strongly suspect that the ending 'd' was not well enunciated or not heard so it was mistaken for the insulting word.




i am not a wasp but if someone called me a "honky" i'd probably just laugh. but, i don't know the etymology behind that term.

i have been told that the word 'honky' came from the vocal tone of europeans' voices as heard by africans when the europeans were colonizing africa. i also read this in some african literature; i remember one book by chinua achebe in which the protagonist marvels at how whites sounded when they spoke.

the voices of europeans, as compared to africans, seemed to resonate more in the nasal cavity giving them a nasal twang to their speech. that sound quality was likened to the sound made by geese, hence 'honky'.

[Dickhead]

I work in higher education and I can guarantee you a lot of people have gotten in trouble for using the word "niggardly," include one I know personally who was fired and made to apologize in order to get her job back. Similarly I can assure you the person in question enunciated it very clearly. I have never heard it used to refer to things of poor quality. "Brummagem" is an interesting word I have heard used in that context.

I researched "honky" and it appears to be a corruption of "hunkie," short for "bohunk" which was a derogatory term for Hungarians and similar Eastern Europeans. These and blacks comprised the two main ethnic groups working in the Chicago slaughterhouses and meat packing plants in the early twentieth century and blacks used this word similarly to the n-word, possibly retaliatorily.

[Dickhead]

Here is what Coup d'Etat posted in the Philippines section after a typhoon where at least 155 people died:

" A Drag
That ferry disappearing really fucked with me too. Yeah I have some water coming into the house and the cable TV is all but dead. What a drag."

I suggest a very brief moment of silence for poor Coup d'Etat, trying valiantly to survive without cable TV. Imagine the horror. How can the cable possibly go out in an "upscale gated community"? Plus he used a curse word.

[SE Asia Joe]

back on topic....

i think truly seaj, no offense, that your attitude is one of abdicating our responsibility and duty as human beings. we are not just cogs in a massive machine, we are endowed with thinking minds and creatives wills and are supposed to use them ………
i actually think the human race will extinct itself if it doesn't seriously overhaul all its major civilizations within the next 2-3 generations. we are at a very crucial point in our evolution. and everybody who just goes along for the ride and doesn't do anything proactive is worse than just a waste of space, they are helping to bring about the end of themselves, their children, and the whole human race. there's nothing "pragmatic" about the way we are carrying on right now. it's just downright destructive.
.
none taken as i do know that differing opinion is just that and does not have to be offensive or be construed as trying to offend any body…. unlike some people!!

but are you not being self contradictory when you further state


and as far as i'm concerned the corner drug dealer may be an idiot, but the even bigger idiot is some idiot who works his or her life away at minimum wage and has nothing but misery and struggle to show for it. those people get my real contempt.
you state that one must think and act only for the good of the world at large…and then say that those who are just cogs in this world of ours are idiots. in this i believe you imply that they should get off their ass and get ahead in the world.

can you not subscribe to the idea that whenever one of us try to get ahead in life, that one is actually affecting someone else adversely? most people, when they get a promotion, would they refuse it and tell the boss to give it to someone else? when a humble priest gets “promoted’ to become a bishop or a cardinal – would he turn it down? even though there are other priests in his parish who would also want to be a bishop etc?

your statement about the idiot at minimum wage pretty well reflects the true state of the world – one of a dog eat dog world. that… is the reality – whether you and i like it or not. yes – i do have a responsibility to the world and would like to think that i do try my best to fulfill such responsibility – but certainly not at the expense of abdicating my responsibility first to my own family and myself. one can only do so much – and anybody who bleats that one must/does take total responsibility for all that goes on is either an idiot or fooling himself.

i am not saying that we all should [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and pillage the world just to get ahead – but i certainly am not going to advocate myself laying down “taking it all in” whilst all those around me is [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) and pillaging. i’m not even advocating taking part in such [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and pillage – but just that i do what is needed to first survive myself.

have you ever taken a plane ride? if so, why did you do so? did you not consider your carbon foot print when doing so? couldn’t you make it to wherever by walking? ahhh yes, ridiculous – but that is the point i’m trying to make – a person can only do so much to live up to his civic responsibility etc. i would even suggest that anybody who totally denies that they are actually quite forced to also take a part in the [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and pillage of the world cannot be anything but a hypocrite.

it’s all a matter of degrees…all a matter of degrees … and in the case of rn – which is how i got into this discussion in the first place, i suggest that she should first and foremost be practical – that her idealism does have a place – but not at all times and over riding all other considerations.



as for my kids being prostitutes, i'd have no problem with them doing it, aside from worried about them being fucked with by pigs. hopefully they'd have the sense to go somewhere where it's legal if that's what they really want to do.
this…. i do not agree with at all…. and i would think that most rational people would also disagree. as a parent, one’s main duty and responsibility is to provide for and teach one’s progeny values, help them to build up their own character and try one’s best to allow them to economically get on with life. what does it say about you and your responsibility if your kids do become prostitutes?

just imho – and certainly not to cause offense to any body.

seaj

[Warbucks]

This…. I do not agree with at all…. And I would think that most rational people would also disagree. As a parent, one’s main duty and responsibility is to provide for and teach one’s progeny Values, help them to build up their own character and try one’s best to allow them to economically get on with life. What does it say about you and your responsibility if your kids do become prostitutes?

JUST IMHO – and certainly not to cause offense to any body.

SEAJ

I thought I was losing my fucking mind because of the last few post. Thanks SEA for bringing the sanity back to this thread.

[Mill Millz]

I've decided to confront my prejudice against johns/ punters and prostitutes. After reading some of the reports on this forum I realize you are all not deranged, pathetic, misogynistic quasi- sociopaths as I thought johns/punters were and a lot of you seem quite level headed. However I still see those who advocate prostitution and buy sex as hypocrites based on how many johns/punters would be completely accepting of a female family member working as a prostitute and even more so if that person were their partner in life. If prostitution is just sex therapy then why the qualms about life partners and daughters becoming prostitutes?

[Mill Millz]

First of all checking to see if at all this works as I tried to post and it didn't go through.

[Mill Millz]

I am writing to see if this goes through, try 3, if it does I'll edit this post.

[Dickhead]

Why don't you fuck a hooker, see what you think, and then report back? Until then, you really don't have anything to contribute, do you?

[Warbucks]

I've decided to confront my prejudice against johns/ punters and prostitutes. After reading some of the reports on this forum I realize you are all not deranged, pathetic, misogynistic quasi- sociopaths as I thought johns/punters were and a lot of you seem quite level headed. However I still see those who advocate prostitution and buy sex as hypocrites based on how many johns/punters would be completely accepting of a female family member working as a prostitute and even more so if that person were their partner in life. If prostitution is just sex therapy then why the qualms about life partners and daughters becoming prostitutes?

Derange, pathetic, misogynistic, quasi-sociopaths? What John and or hooker gave you that impression? I am dying to know.

Second thing the debate was some say the trade is ok while others disagree. The partners and daughters came up when it was asked if it was an ok occupation for family memeber. What would feelings be toward it then?

[Mill Millz]

Why don't you fuck a hooker, see what you think, and then report back? Until then, you really don't have anything to contribute, do you? I am not interested in ever visiting one. I am here merely to try and understand the morality of those who do visit prostitutes.


Derange, pathetic, misogynistic, quasi-sociopaths? What John and or hooker gave you that impression? I am dying to know. It was a prejudice. Most men I've encountered who visited prostitutes seemed to lack a conscious as to exploiting women or for that matter anyone else and just seemed to generally not be very caring as to the suffering of strangers.


Second thing the debate was some say the trade is ok while others disagree. The partners and daughters came up when it was asked if it was an ok occupation for family memeber. What would feelings be toward it then? I am guessing your asking me how do I personally feel about the question I posed and that is I would never marry a person who prostituted themselves because I find prostitution a rather repulsive thing because I find it wrong to take something thats quite beautiful and degrade it by treating it like a physical addiction that need placating, though I fully support its legalization and regulation and If a family member became a prostitute, I'd accept it as it is their body and they have a right to do what the please with it but I would probably be distant from that family member because I still find prostitution repulsive.

[Warbucks]

Reason: Anti-prostitution proselytizing.

Deleted already?

[Mill Millz 1]

Which part of all that I said did you get ,I want to recruit against prostitution? In fact I said I was for its legalization and regulation. I find prostitution very repulsive but I am not here to preach about that, I merely want to understand your morality. I am writing an article on the sex industry and I don't want first hand experience in it and instead of writing something prejudice, I think its better I confront some of the stereotypes I have of the industry. Which I am doing by being here and one of the things that keeps coming up, is why do you johns/punters not care about how degrading prostitution is to I'd wager the vast majority of prostitutes. I am sure there are many prostitutes that want to be in this industry, but there are many more especially in the non-western world where prostitution is a last resort in gendered poor economy. And lastly there have been a number of johns/punters even here that have said they'd not be happy with their daughters or spouses being prostitutes and doesn't this in fact validate the fact that prostitution is a vice?

[SE Asia Joe]

Which part of all that I said did you get ,I want to recruit against prostitution? In fact I said I was for its legalization and regulation. I find prostitution very repulsive but I am not here to preach about that, I merely want to understand your morality. I am writing an article on the sex industry and I don't want first hand experience in it and instead of writing something prejudice, I think its better I confront some of the stereotypes I have of the industry. Which I am doing by being here and one of the things that keeps coming up, is why do you johns/punters not care about how degrading prostitution is to I'd wager the vast majority of prostitutes. I am sure there are many prostitutes that want to be in this industry, but there are many more especially in the non-western world where prostitution is a last resort in gendered poor economy. And lastly there have been a number of johns/punters even here that have said they'd not be happy with their daughters or spouses being prostitutes and doesn't this in fact validate the fact that prostitution is a vice?

You're persistent aintcha? Mill Milz 1?? Why don't you take on more appropriate handles like "Holy Shit," "Better Than Thou" or perhaps even "True Dickhead?"

And I really cain't wait to read your article on the sex industry to enlighten me. Give it up man and tackle easier fields OK?

SEAJ

[Mill Millz 1]

Oh boy, I am basically giving you a chance to tell your side of the story and debate against the current view most society has of you. From what I've so far read most of you don't see yourselves as exploiters and prostitution as wrong but.

If prostitution isn't a vice, why the hang ups on female loved ones being prostitutes?

If you can't handle the question and prefer to avoid it by concentrating on my personal feelings on prostitution. Despite my clear support for its legalization. Then fine. Your just affirming the negative stereotype of johns as indeed exploiters.

[Jelly Donut]

Oh boy, I am basically giving you a chance to tell your side of the story and debate against the current view most society has of you. From what I've so far read most of you don't see yourselves as exploiters and prostitution as wrong but.

If prostitution isn't a vice, why the hang ups on female loved ones being prostitutes?

If you can't handle the question and prefer to avoid it by concentrating on my personal feelings on prostitution. Despite my clear support for its legalization. Then fine. Your just affirming the negative stereotype of johns as indeed exploiters.

I don't know much about you, except your life here is going to be short. You show up throwing out a bunch of inflamatory words for the members and then claim "I am writing an article on the sex industry and I don't want first hand experience in it and instead of writing something prejudice". You are no Nicholas Kristof. You sound young and a little vulgar - there may be hope for you yet.

At any rate, it just seems to me you should write about the sex industry from your own perspective. You have a strong prejudice (your words) I think it's fair to say your prejudice is stronger than the norm in most societies. Why don't you write about that? Nathaniel Hawthorne made a buck or two off The Scarlet Letter - exploring puritanical ideas, the kinds of social environments they create and how they impact people. Why don't you read that, reflect on your own opinions and write from there?

[Mill Millz 1]

Whats so difficult about answering this question?


If prostitution isn't a vice, why the hang ups on female loved ones being prostitutes?
I think it's fair to say your prejudice is stronger than the norm in most societies. Obviously not since most societies outlaw prostitution and stigmatize all those involved with it. Whilst I am for its legalization.

[Rubber Nursey]

If prostitution isn't a vice, why the hang ups on female loved ones being prostitutes?
It's not about prostitution. They're opposed to female promiscuity, period. They subscribe to the idea that women should consider sex sacred and save themselves for the one they love...therefore, there is something inherently 'wrong' with a woman who would fuck strangers for money. They grade a woman's respectability according to her chastity/purity and nobody likes to think of their own mother/sister/daughter/wife as anything less than respectable, hence they wouldn't want them to work in the sex industry.

That said, I firmly believe that these men would treat the women they pay for sex with respect and kindness. I highly doubt they would see themselves as 'exploiters' and I don't think they look down on individual sex workers, as such ...they just see them as a different 'type' of woman. That age-old male double standard of 'Some you fuck, some you marry'.

And I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I have to say it: Please, for the love of whatever God you do or do not believe in, DON'T WRITE THAT ARTICLE. As someone who has never been a hooker or a client, you're about as qualified to write about the sex industry as I am to write about neurosurgery. The only reason we still have people like yourself talking about 'exploitation' and 'degradation', is because other people like yourself are constantly writing papers and articles about something they have absolutely NO understanding of. Sex workers can tell their own stories.

[Dinghy]

Morality - by "morality" it's meant as a "judaeo-christian-muslim extension of dogmatic adherence to what is considered correct under that tradition". (After all, it all boils down to RELIGION at the bottom line.)

I know that's a lot of words, but pure and simple it boils down to this - "One shouldn't assess any more of a moral code to prostitution than any other type of employment"

The "morality" is assigned based on the repressed sexual nature of certain puritanical religious groups. THEY chose to assign what might be considered a "moral quotient" based on THEIR religious values.

Remember - "homo sapiens" is little more than a slightly evolved ape, a primate with cognizant ability. That ability has the power to assign "right" and "wrong" designations to what is nothing more than a basal urge ("to reproduce" - or at least to "enjoy trying") as an "employment" (it isn't called "the world's oldest profession" without cause)

Now if we want to address "morality", let's ask "what about the PIMPS?" - those who would live off the earnings of another human being. Is it "moral" to prostitute one's self if there is little else that one can do for "employment"? Is it wrong to expect that someone who provides sexual services to support someone who isn't a family member with the proceeds from those services? That's a MORALITY question - not the morality of "basic" prostitution.

Is it "immoral" to sell sexual services? Does anyone get physically harmed by those services? (and I would probably include transmission of STD into the "harm" category) If "no harm no foul" then WHY is there such a hubbub about a matter of individual commerce? Are the legal prostitution services offered in parts of Europe IMMORAL?

[Rubber Nursey]

Well said, Dinghy! Although, I would disagree with you on one point...pimps. If sex work really is a job like any other, then why do we question the 'morality' of a person who earns third-party profits from prostitution?

A hairdressing salon contracts hairdressers to work for them. The hairdressers do all the work, but a large chunk of the price of each haircut goes to the salon. Those hairdressers could run their own businesses from home if they wanted to, but they choose to work in the salon.

I see brothel owners as no different to any other contractor. I've worked for brothels and independently and my personal preference is definitely brothels. Brothel work allows you to simply walk in, do your job and walk out at the end of the day with a paypacket. My employers provided me with a safe working environment, advertising, clean laundry, established clientele, power, water, phone, etc - all of which I would have had to arrange and pay for myself if I was working independently. Running your own small business can be hard work.

(Obviously the stereotypical street-corner pimp who beats girls and takes all their money is a whole other story. But for me it would be his violent tendencies and the fact that he treats other human beings as slaves that makes him 'immoral', not the sexual nature of the job he's profiting from).

[Mill Millz 1]

It's not about prostitution. They're opposed to female promiscuity, period. They subscribe to the idea that women should consider sex sacred and save themselves for the one they love...therefore, there is something inherently 'wrong' with a woman who would fuck strangers for money. They grade a woman's respectability according to her chastity/purity and nobody likes to think of their own mother/sister/daughter/wife as anything less than respectable, hence they wouldn't want them to work in the sex industry.

That said, I firmly believe that these men would treat the women they pay for sex with respect and kindness. I highly doubt they would see themselves as 'exploiters' and I don't think they look down on individual sex workers, as such ...they just see them as a different 'type' of woman. That age-old male double standard of 'Some you fuck, some you marry'. Well that's the hypocrisy I denote as a sign of awareness (on some level) that johns do indeed objectify. degrade and commodify women. They just don't care as long as its not happening to one of their own. Isn't what they do then the definition of exploitation?


And I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I have to say it: Please, for the love of whatever God you do or do not believe in, DON'T WRITE THAT ARTICLE. As someone who has never been a hooker or a client, you're about as qualified to write about the sex industry as I am to write about neurosurgery. The only reason we still have people like yourself talking about 'exploitation' and 'degradation', is because other people like yourself are constantly writing papers and articles about something they have absolutely NO understanding of. Sex workers can tell their own stories.I completely disagree with you, writers are constantly writing articles on subjects they don't have first hand knowledge of, like war and yes even neurosurgery. Difference between a good and a bad writer is how much they're willing to confront their prejudice and set aside their bias for the truth. In my perfect world, prostitution wouldn't exist - my perfect world would also not be religious as I adhere to no faith btw - but the reality and truth of the matter is that prostitution will always exist and its better for the safety and well being of everyone that it be legalized and regulated. You should be happy, there is a writer that is concerned primarily with the truth of the industry and not trying to enforce their utopia on others.

[Mill Millz 1]

Thank You also Rubber Nursey for answering my question. At least someone had enough balls to truly confront the morality of prostitution, instead of pretending to be able to debate it honestly.

[Jelly Donut]

Whats so difficult about answering this question?


It's like having a child who tells you they are gay or evangelical. You may not have anything against gays or evangelicals in the abstract. You may even respect certain aspects of thier respective lifestyles. Colorful parades, family picnics. Whatever.

But it's different when it's your kid. You know enough about the lives of gays and evangelicals to know they are at odds with simple conventions in society. Some people have strong negative feelings about gays; some folks can't stand evangelicals. You see your child is going down a path in life that's hard, difficult. Why would you wish that on someone close to you?

I can't believe you have not gone out and purchased The Scarlet Letter. "my perfect world". Good God. Maybe a copy of Tom Sowell's The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy for good measure. You remind me of Eliot Spitzer.

[Mill Millz 1]

It's like having a child who tells you they are gay or evangelical. You may not have anything against gays or evangelicals in the abstract. You may even respect certain aspects of their respective lifestyles. Colorful parades, family picnics. Whatever.

But it's different when it's your kid. You know enough about the lives of gays and evangelicals to know they are at odds with simple conventions in society. Some people have strong negative feelings about gays; some folks can't stand evangelicals. You see your child is going down a path in life that's hard, difficult. Why would you wish that on someone close to you?So in a world where prostitution was legalized and not stigmatized, you'd have no problem with your partner or daughter being prostitutes?


I can't believe you have not gone out and purchased The Scarlet Letter. "my perfect world". Good God. Maybe a copy of Tom Sowell's The Vision of the Anointed: Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy for good measure. You remind me of Eliot Spitzer. Well since you've insisted I have put it on books to get when I head to the library next. As to the Eliot Spitzer comparison, that's stupid, he was against prostitution and persecuted those involved in the industry but engaged in it. I am not against prostitution, legally speaking, and never have (and NEVER will) engaged in it, and I am not interested in persecuting anyone involved in it either unless they're not consenting adults. Lets keep the debate on the morality and not on trying to box me with you guys, ok? OK

[George90]

Why is everyone giving so much credibility and article fodder to this troll Mill Millz 1? All of your responses will be quoted or paraphrased for said article.

In the meantime, he or she has effectively hi-jacked the thread by throwing out provocative bombs to which everyone reacts.

Stop ceding control to the troll! Ignore Mill Millz 1!

[Chocha Monger]

Why is everyone giving so much credibility and article fodder to this troll Mill Millz 1? All of your responses will be quoted or paraphrased for said article.

In the meantime, he or she has effectively hi-jacked the thread by throwing out provocative bombs to which everyone reacts.

Stop ceding control to the troll! Ignore Mill Millz 1!
I thought she was banned?
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?t=2585

[Bango Cheito]

I think it's right on topic.

Well, I've already gone on record as saying I don't object on any moral grounds to people close to me, even my own family, working in prostitution. My current wife works on the webcam sites as I've also said before, and I have ZERO problem with it, beyond the fact that business seems to be way off this year (but that's not the only industry in the shitcan right now). BTW it seems to me that a good 50% of the worlds countries have legalized prostitution by now.

RN as usual is right on the money when she points out that the REAL problem is that society just seems to have a big stick up its ass when it comes to women behaving in an overtly sexual manner. It MAJORLY saddens me because a lot of times women are the ones who denigrate other women (and THEMSELVES) much more so than do the men IMHO.

SEAJ, what I'm saying is that BY DINT OF being a cog in the wheel you are not doing anything good for greater society, because every society on the planet is SEVERLY FUCKED UP and NEEDS AN OVERHAUL. So the only people IMO who are acting for the greater good today on this planet are those who are trying to take societies apart and put them back together again. The status quo at this moment in time is a sure path to the destruction of the human race, perhaps with many of the other higher-functioning species being taken with them. I think that by standing out from the pack and leading instead of following you take a greater risk but also stand to gain a lot more, and you have a much more satisfying life doing such, instead of just doing what society wants you to do.

I've basically rejected societies' values WHOLESALE, and don't subscribe much to any of them. To me, they really are just one big steaming pile of shit. I don't think my kids should have to be subjected to them either, beyond knowing where the boundaries are and being PRUDENT with them, while always looking for a way around them. When one says a kid must be raised with "values" I ask myself what are those fucking values supposed to BE? What's valid anymore? To me absolute morality is a crock of shit to begin with. What you should do DEPENDS on CIRCUMSTANCES and there can be no blanket statements regarding what is "right" and "wrong." That's the narrow-minded view of the monotheists!

[Jelly Donut]

So in a world where prostitution was legalized and not stigmatized, you'd have no problem with your partner or daughter being prostitutes?


That's not what I said. I would have all kinds of issues with my children, that's just the nature of parenting. I'd try to keep most of those issues to myself.

However, for what it's worth, in my experience, having gone out with both prostitutes and writers, the prostitutes have more interesting stories and are often more stable partners.

As for Thomas Sowell, while I like the title of the last book I tossed out there, if you are actually going to read him I'd recommend A Conflict of Visions.

[Brazil Specialist]

There is a lot of confusion in this topic.

Well, there are double moral standards. Men want to father their children with a virgin girl friend, and want to fuck everyone else with no maior commitment. I am one exception, I respect girls with loose sexual morals and don't mind relating to them.


On the other hand, would you want your son to be a champion boxer, a freestyle fighter, a foreign legion soldier of fortune, or a toilet cleaner? Would you want your daughter to be a lawyer that defends genocidal dictators or mafia bosses? People can legitimately have wishes.

Now this absurd notion of prostitution work being demeaning uttered by people who have never done it or seen it, is ridiculous.

Of course, sex slaves exploited by the mafia, or Thai 11 year olds sold to a brothel by dad in exchange for a water buffalo or to pay off a gambling debt, that is a criminal problem that does not have much to do with prostitution. If the 11 year old is sold into 18 hours a day housework with daily beatings is pretty much the same problem.

I think it is demeaning for a poor sap to put up a few weeks savings to go to a cold men-hating prostitute in the US or Europe. I have pity on the exploited Johns. Paying too much for a lousy service. Even if it is a good service, for most men it is a financial sacrifice.


It is also very demeaning for nerdy, socially clumsy or plain ugly and dumb guys to spend a life yearning for sexual release and having no chance to do so. I read that in Denmark (?) social security pays 2 brothel visits a year for mental hygiene. Even if it were a false rumor, it would be good policy.

I think it is demeaning to have to spend one's life staring into people's dirty stinking rotten mouths. Still it is a honored profession: dentist. Cleaning toilets is fairly demeaning. Serving in the army without having chosen to do so is extremely demeaning.


Luxury prostitutes who make much more money as they would make otherwise, and who apply their money well, who meet guys well above their social level, I don't think that is a big problem. Whatever problem arises stems from society's prejudices, from lack of social support, discrimination, etc.

Personally I think it is great for a girl to earn her college money doing a little luxury prostitution. Much better then to stay without a college education and slaving in demeaning badly paid jobs.


It seems our friend Millz has some honest concerns and at least a somewhat open mind. Are you male, Milz?

If I had an expense account and took you to termas Centaurus in Rio de Janeiro, offering you a free session, would you resist? Or better to to Cafe Foto in Sao Paulo, where all girls come totally voluntarily and whenever they want in total freedom, where some girls arrive in BMW cars (in Brazil the price and status equivalent of a Rolls Royce in Europe or US), you might actually get corrupted and change your mind. Having the opportunity of having a tryst with a girl that is more gorgeous then you ever dreamed, would you resist?

If someone, unbeknownst to you, paid 400 dollars to a Cafe Foto girl to go out with you, would you not? And if you met such a girl in a bar, would you not take her to great restaurants and spend a few hundred dollars in the hope of getting laid?

And if you are like a typical Brazilian, you might even want to have a wife at home, but twice a month go to a luxury brothel where the girls do things your wife would not want to do with you.

[Rubber Nursey]

Well that's the hypocrisy I denote as a sign of awareness (on some level) that johns do indeed objectify. degrade and commodify women. They just don't care as long as its not happening to one of their own. Isn't what they do then the definition of exploitation?
You may think that you're insulting clients with those words, but you're not. Every term you've used to describe prostitution thus far - exploitation, degradation, objectification, suffering, etc - completely denies sex workers' agency and autonomy. You make it sound like sex is something that's done TO a woman, not WITH a woman. Like we're just pathetic playthings, blow up dolls, staring at the ceiling while some selfish, uncaring misogynist pounds away on top of us. That's not how it is at all. You've got the power dynamic all wrong.

If you understood how it all works, you'd know that clients aren't predators or exploiters. They don't 'objectify' women or 'commodify' sex, either - if anything, sex workers themselves do (that's why the feminazis hate us!)

You know, I'm one of the few people on this site who can say they've been both hooker AND client. The first time, I was still working as a hooker myself and paid another female hooker for a service. I'd be interested to know how that fits with your ideas of exploitation and objectification?

[Rubber Nursey]

JD: I'm starting to develop a serious crush on you. If Bango didn't keep stimulating my activist erogenous zones and distracting me, you'd have a serious stalker on your hands. How do you feel about writing ex-prostitutes? ;)

[Dickhead]

They just don't care as long as its not happening to one of their own.

I completely disagree with you, writers are constantly writing articles on subjects they don't have first hand knowledge of, like war and yes even neurosurgery. Difference between a good and a bad writer is how much they're willing to confront their prejudice and set aside their bias for the truth.

Some other differences between good writers and bad writers are that good writers know how to use a semi-colon and understand the difference between its and it's, and the difference between your and you're.

[Metric]

"Law does the trick" - Five years ago prostitution was decriminalised

A fairly balanced look at the decriminalisation of prostitution in New Zealand.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4600063a6482.htm


A Justice Ministry review committee that completed an assessment of the legislation in May found no discernible increase in prostitute numbers.
A re-estimate by the Christchurch School of Medicine has put the figure at 2332, though that estimate covers only Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Hawke's Bay and Nelson.

"The effect of excluding the smaller urban centres and rural districts in the current estimates is considered to be minimal," the committee said.

"The committee endorses the findings of the [school of medicine] that the enactment of the [law] has had little impact on the numbers of people working in the sex industry," the report concluded.

Committee chairman Paul Fitzharris, a retired police assistant commissioner, said decriminalisation had in effect removed prostitution from the police agenda.
"The police basically lost interest in the sex industry in terms of their work."

Is the industry now safer for workers?

It is now a requirement for condoms to be used and for safe sex to be promoted in brothels.

Decriminalisation has also meant sex workers now have the weight of the law behind them when dealing with violent clients or punters who do not want to use protection.

Ninety per cent of sex workers now felt they had rights and 65 per cent felt able to refuse a client, Mr Fitzharris said.

Associate Justice Minister Lianne Dalziel said: "It is positive that 65 per cent felt able to refuse a client since the law change but I would like to see that increase over time."

"If clients don't want to wear a condom, sex workers say they find the law quite effective in dealing with that," Ms Healy said.

[Tarius Shinobi]

Miami's South Beach is under the gun again. Check out this link before you hop on the bus:

Http://www.MiamiHerald.Com/459/Story/582458.Html

[Bango Cheito]

HAHAHAHAHAH it's all in the interest of preventing stalking innit? :P

[Jelly Donut]

HAHAHAHAHAH it's all in the interest of preventing stalking innit? :P

Yeah. Thanks a bunch buddy.


JD - always the stalker, never the stalked

[Rubber Nursey]

Don't panic. I don't have the time, nor the patience to stalk anyone.

Fantasy is always better than reality, anyway. Unfortunately for JD, his posts conjure up an insanely sexy image of Sean Connery in front of a fireplace with a glass of red and a good book. Ohhhhh yeahhhhh.

Then again - Antonio Banderas, freedom fighter and bike-riding eco-terrorist, is pretty hot as well...

DAMN my overactive imagination and underactive sex life! :)

[Jelly Donut]

Don't panic. I don't have the time, nor the patience to stalk anyone.

Fantasy is always better than reality, anyway. Unfortunately for JD, his posts conjure up an insanely sexy image of Sean Connery in front of a fireplace with a glass of red and a good book. Ohhhhh yeahhhhh.

Then again - Antonio Banderas, freedom fighter and bike-riding eco-terrorist, is pretty hot as well...

DAMN my overactive imagination and underactive sex life! :)

Well, I respect an imagination that can make the leap from "Jelly Donut" to "insanely sexy image of Sean Connery in front of a fireplace with a glass of red and a good book". But it wasn't really what I was going for when I picked the handle.

Really.

Still, I appreciate the suggestion of stalking. The idea of being shaddowed by Naomi Watts sure made my day move a little lighter. Thank you.

[Rubber Nursey]

Wow! How did you know I look like Naomi Watts? In fact, I'm a dead ringer.
Except I'm only 21. And I'm much bustier. And I'm a virgin...

[Warbucks]

There is a lot of confusion in this topic.

Well, there are double moral standards. Men want to father their children with a virgin girl friend, and want to fuck everyone else with no maior commitment. I am one exception, I respect girls with loose sexual morals and don't mind relating to them.


On the other hand, would you want your son to be a champion boxer, a freestyle fighter, a foreign legion soldier of fortune, or a toilet cleaner? Would you want your daughter to be a lawyer that defends genocidal dictators or mafia bosses? People can legitimately have wishes.

Now this absurd notion of prostitution work being demeaning uttered by people who have never done it or seen it, is ridiculous.

Of course, sex slaves exploited by the mafia, or Thai 11 year olds sold to a brothel by dad in exchange for a water buffalo or to pay off a gambling debt, that is a criminal problem that does not have much to do with prostitution. If the 11 year old is sold into 18 hours a day housework with daily beatings is pretty much the same problem.

I think it is demeaning for a poor sap to put up a few weeks savings to go to a cold men-hating prostitute in the US or Europe. I have pity on the exploited Johns. Paying too much for a lousy service. Even if it is a good service, for most men it is a financial sacrifice.


It is also very demeaning for nerdy, socially clumsy or plain ugly and dumb guys to spend a life yearning for sexual release and having no chance to do so. I read that in Denmark (?) social security pays 2 brothel visits a year for mental hygiene. Even if it were a false rumor, it would be good policy.

I think it is demeaning to have to spend one's life staring into people's dirty stinking rotten mouths. Still it is a honored profession: dentist. Cleaning toilets is fairly demeaning. Serving in the army without having chosen to do so is extremely demeaning.


Luxury prostitutes who make much more money as they would make otherwise, and who apply their money well, who meet guys well above their social level, I don't think that is a big problem. Whatever problem arises stems from society's prejudices, from lack of social support, discrimination, etc.

Personally I think it is great for a girl to earn her college money doing a little luxury prostitution. Much better then to stay without a college education and slaving in demeaning badly paid jobs.


It seems our friend Millz has some honest concerns and at least a somewhat open mind. Are you male, Milz?

If I had an expense account and took you to termas Centaurus in Rio de Janeiro, offering you a free session, would you resist? Or better to to Cafe Foto in Sao Paulo, where all girls come totally voluntarily and whenever they want in total freedom, where some girls arrive in BMW cars (in Brazil the price and status equivalent of a Rolls Royce in Europe or US), you might actually get corrupted and change your mind. Having the opportunity of having a tryst with a girl that is more gorgeous then you ever dreamed, would you resist?

If someone, unbeknownst to you, paid 400 dollars to a Cafe Foto girl to go out with you, would you not? And if you met such a girl in a bar, would you not take her to great restaurants and spend a few hundred dollars in the hope of getting laid?

And if you are like a typical Brazilian, you might even want to have a wife at home, but twice a month go to a luxury brothel where the girls do things your wife would not want to do with you.

That was probably one of the best letters I have personally read advocating prostitution though I still hold my stance on the subject matter. But your writings struck a cord as my work frequently takes me to the Islamic nation of Afghanistan where the local male population sometimes begs us American guys for any type of porn. It’s almost impossible for these guys to get laid without being married due to lack of funds and due to lack of opportunity being women are treated like valuable property.

[Opebo]

Each and all of us who must turn his hand to toil out of necessity is humilated. The reason is that we are under the power of another (the owner or generally the owning class). This is really no different if you are giving blow jobs or merely getting up early and spending all day doing whatever unpleasant task they demand of you - ditchdigging or computer programming.

Let us set aside our indoctrination by misogynistic propaganda and consider its source and purpose - just like the racism we are all fed from birth, it can only serve the interests of those who control us.

[Rubber Nursey]

Let us set aside our indoctrination by misogynistic propaganda and consider its source and purpose - just like the racism we are all fed from birth, it can only serve the interests of those who control us.
Oh, bugger! I agree with Opebo again.

[Rock Dog]

Everybody can say whatever they like about this subject.....blah blah blah.

All it really comes down to is this...... what would you rather do, pay for it?

or beg for it?

Rock

[George90]

there is an interesting letter to the editor in today's new york times. i am pasting it below. i am very glad there is at least one sane person close to the policy/power levers! too bad there are so many more crazies who actually control those levers.


to the editor:

john r. miller advocates several major reforms in the government’s enforcement of trafficking laws, changes that at first glance seem quite sensible.

yet the devil is in the details, as many of the changes would violate citizens’ rights, undermine the established principle of criminal intent and shift the burden of proof away from the state. one example is the notion of prosecuting americans who buy sex abroad, even when they do so in a country where prostitution is legal. it is no wonder that the justice department is opposed, as mr. miller reports, to some of these departures from justice.

ever since he was appointed to run the state department’s trafficking office, mr. miller has made sweeping generalizations about sex workers that reflect a staunch prohibitionist ideology, myths that are not supported by research.

it is not the case, as mr. miller claims, that the average age of entry into prostitution is 14, nor is it true that “most prostitutes are poor, young, abused, harassed, raped, beaten and under the control of pimps against their will.” such claims are based on unrepresentative samples of the most desperate sector of the sex trade, and are meant to shock the reader and to generate support for zero-tolerance policies and stiff penalties for those involved in sex work.

to call prostitution the “oldest form of abuse” is a catchy slogan but a fallacy, as decades of research show.

ronald weitzer
arlington, va., july 11, 2008

the writer is a professor of sociology at george washington university and author of “sex for sale: prostitution, pornography and the sex industry.”

[Goga Fung]

Can someone explain why while prostitution is illegal in USA, but porn is legal?

In porn obviously somebody gets paid for sex. If they want prohibit "immoral" behavior they must prosecute porn first.

It is obvious that porn replaces sex for many people. They have no other choice except buying/watching porn. Technically they do pay money for sex!

And in addition to that, porn promotes perversions and many crazy and stupid things one would never come up with if living in a normal healthy free society. I guess people who watch that are really sick. Why is it legal to watch a sick movie, but illegal to have sex with a nice real woman and compensate her for her time and effort?

Of course everything must be allowed, prostitution and porn. But if they got a reason prohibit prostitution, then they must prosecute porn too including all the actors, photographers, directors, agents(pimps!) and viewers!

Could it be because that porn industry is more controlled and they are getting more money out of it, as opposed to if prostitution were allowed the USA porn industry would suffer?

If the "government/church" cares about "moral", in reality they make it worse, prohibiting natural sex, and allowing sick stuff.

[Goga Fung]

Now this absurd notion of prostitution work being demeaning uttered by people who have never done it or seen it, is ridiculous.


I think many people in the USA associate prostitution with crack*****s/drug addicts/alcoholics. Which is right, it looks like in the USA the majority of prostitutes are really nasty. And they probably do it not because they like it or because of some good reason, they do it to get another doze of narcotics.

Most USA people cannot imaging that sex with a stunning girl is ever possible. well, bad for them;)



I think it is demeaning for a poor sap to put up a few weeks savings to go to a cold men-hating prostitute in the US or Europe. I have pity on the exploited Johns. Paying too much for a lousy service. Even if it is a good service, for most men it is a financial sacrifice.


Yes, Europe is overpriced now. The golden days (no euros era) are over. Now even Czech, Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan are ridiculous.

I've heard there are cheap($25) places for Mexicans in the USA, where they go and have sex on regular bases no matter what. They get busted once in awhile.




It is also very demeaning for nerdy, socially clumsy or plain ugly and dumb guys to spend a life yearning for sexual release and having no chance to do so.


Well, it is demeaning for me too! Although I am none of those! I still have big problem meeting girls I want in the USA!



I read that in Denmark (?) social security pays 2 brothel visits a year for mental hygiene. Even if it were a false rumor, it would be good policy.


Sounds good. And makes lots of sense. Also give economic stimulus to the brothel as well;) I am really sorry to many American guys who have never had and will never have a chance to be with a descent woman, or any woman at all in their life! I know at least one such person. He is almost 60. I believe he is a virgin! His mind was so screwed up that he refused to pay for a girl in Prague! he did not believe that she would fuck him for his money! It makes me almost cry when I think about these guys. They would rather spend their money for shopping, buying stupid tools and home improvements.. instead of taking a little risk and see what else is available in this life.



I think it is demeaning to have to spend one's life staring into people's dirty stinking rotten mouths. Still it is a honored profession: dentist. Cleaning toilets is fairly demeaning. Serving in the army without having chosen to do so is extremely demeaning.


Most of jobs can be considered demeaning. If you stare at a computer for a whole day, you sell you body! you hurt your eyes. why is it legal? Women do construction work, they also go to army, to war risking their lives! At the same time they are prohibited to have sex for money. This is ridiculous. Does not make any sense at all.




Luxury prostitutes who make much more money as they would make otherwise, and who apply their money well, who meet guys well above their social level, I don't think that is a big problem. Whatever problem arises stems from society's prejudices, from lack of social support, discrimination, etc.


I had one luxury girl in Czech Republic.(600 euros/4hours i think) Well, in contrast to what USA people think of prostitutes, she also owns a beauty salon, she also studies at a university. It is not like she needs to do to feed herself. She enjoys company of descent men. She gets clients in UK, Italy. I guess she earns a few K over a weekend. And she's free to refuse if she does not like the client. And there are many girls like her.



Personally I think it is great for a girl to earn her college money doing a little luxury prostitution. Much better then to stay without a college education and slaving in demeaning badly paid jobs.


Exactly. Otherwise she would fuck around anyways. and would get married early or get pregnant, etc... That's what also is hapening in the USA.




It seems our friend Millz has some honest concerns and at least a somewhat open mind. Are you male, Milz?
If I had an expense account and took you to termas Centaurus in Rio de Janeiro, offering you a free session, would you resist?


Brazil Specialist, can you save the Millz's credit for me?;) I'm planning to go to Brazil. It's on my list. I'm planning to move to SA someday.

Do not be surprised if some USA guys refuse to fuck a pussy! I was shocked first to hear "how can you do this? to have sex right away? oh no, i can't do it, i have to know her better...". Or they may start saying some things about feelings, love, etc... it is funny, but it ain't joke. I heard this form real guys! I think women/feminism brain-washed them too much.

[Goga Fung]

I am sure there are many prostitutes that want to be in this industry, but there are many more especially in the non-western world where prostitution is a last resort in gendered poor economy.

Mill Mills sounds similar to that TV idiot O'Reilly. But anyway, let's say prostitution is bad. Of course there are can be negative things in it.
But it is the last resort for some people (in USA - the land of opportunity!??! for drug addicts too). Do we wanna take the last resort from those people away? Will they have to starve to death? Or they will have to find other forms of getting money. In many countries regular jobs do not provide sufficient income. If not prostitution, they they must do robbery, killing, etc... what is more moral?

[Dickhead]

Every time you have sex with a prostitute, God kills a kitten.

[Yankee 617]

To follow-up on my post #3284, I wanted to warn everyone that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) can, and sometimes does, "detain" and search your laptop computer (or any other analog or digital storage device, including written documents or thumb drive or camera or...) when you enter the United States. This applies to everyone (including US Citizens).

See article below...

===========
Travelers' Laptops May Be Detained At Border

No Suspicion Required Under DHS Policies

By Ellen Nakashima
Washington Post Staff Writer

Friday, August 1, 2008; Page A01

Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop computer or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.

Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

"The policies . . . are truly alarming," said Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), who is probing the government's border search practices. He said he intends to introduce legislation soon that would require reasonable suspicion for border searches, as well as prohibit profiling on race, religion or national origin.

DHS officials said the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including U.S. citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism. Officials said such procedures have long been in place but were disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter.

Civil liberties and business travel groups have pressed the government to disclose its procedures as an increasing number of international travelers have reported that their laptops, cellphones and other digital devices had been taken -- for months, in at least one case -- and their contents examined.

The policies state that officers may "detain" laptops "for a reasonable period of time" to "review and analyze information." This may take place "absent individualized suspicion."

The policies cover "any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form," including hard drives, flash drives, cellphones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover "all papers and other written documentation," including books, pamphlets and "written materials commonly referred to as 'pocket trash' or 'pocket litter.' "

Reasonable measures must be taken to protect business information and attorney-client privileged material, the policies say, but there is no specific mention of the handling of personal data such as medical and financial records.

When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed. Copies sent to non-federal entities must be returned to DHS. But the documents specify that there is no limitation on authorities keeping written notes or reports about the materials.

"They're saying they can rifle through all the information in a traveler's laptop without having a smidgen of evidence that the traveler is breaking the law," said Greg Nojeim, senior counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology. Notably, he said, the policies "don't establish any criteria for whose computer can be searched."

Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy." In a statement submitted to Feingold for a June hearing on the issue, he noted that the executive branch has long had "plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border without probable cause or a warrant" to prevent drugs and other contraband from entering the country.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that "the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

With about 400 million travelers entering the country each year, "as a practical matter, travelers only go to secondary [for a more thorough examination] when there is some level of suspicion," Chertoff wrote. "Yet legislation locking in a particular standard for searches would have a dangerous, chilling effect as officers' often split-second assessments are second-guessed."

In April, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in San Francisco upheld the government's power to conduct searches of an international traveler's laptop without suspicion of wrongdoing. The Customs policy can be viewed at: http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel/admissability/search_authority.ctt/search_authority.pdf.

[Dickhead]

I ran into this issue in February in Los Angeles, returning from a trip to Thailand and Cambodia. I had a laptop in my checked luggage but since it had been ruined by American Airlines on the way out, I had never used it on the trip. Really, re-entering the country I was more worried about the prescription sleeping pills for which I did not have a prescription. I knew I was in trouble when the first customs agent directed me to "Line B" or "Line 2" or some such.

Had an aggressive, hostile, rude, very large agent to deal with. He told me to boot up the computer and I explained to him that the battery was dead and I thought the computer was pretty much dead. He said, "You know I can take this computer for as long as I want?" and I shrugged and said, "Like I said, I think it's dead anyway." Then he asked me about pictures. I had deleted all the pictures before the trip. I said, "I think if you plug it in it will at least start up and then you can see I have absolutely no pictures on it."

So he said, "What, you don't take pictures when you travel?" I said, "Yes, I do but I've got a pretty big memory stick in my camera so I don't need to put them on my computer until I get home. If I want to save them I put them on my desktop because this laptop really doesn't have much memory." Remember now, I am thinking about the pills I have in my watch pocket. I know I don't have any porno pictures.

So he says, "Oh yeah? Let's see your camera." I show it to him and he starts going through it. It has years' worth of pictures. Shit like cemeteries and cathedrals and castles and pictures of the train tracks in Chile. He goes through like 100 and says, "These ain't from Asia." I replied, "No, I think those start at about #185 or so." Finally he gets to the Asia pictures and they are all of temples and Buddhas and some just strange street scenes in Cambodia.

He says, "You ain't got no pictures of no girls. What are you, funny?" I said, "No, I am straight. I like women but I am not into girls and I am into history and architecture so that's what I take pictures of."

He was doing his job in a very aggressive fashion and I did resent it a lot and it reminded me of why I don't live in my country any more. But, I stayed calm and very polite and got away with the pills I had. He was an asshole, for sure.

Reason #56 I am glad I am not into porn or photos of women.

[Warbucks]

To follow-up on my post #3284, I wanted to warn everyone that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) can, and sometimes does, "detain" and search your laptop computer (or any other analog or digital storage device, including written documents or thumb drive or camera or...) when you enter the United States. This applies to everyone (including US Citizens).

See article below...

===========
Travelers' Laptops May Be Detained At Border

No Suspicion Required Under DHS Policies

By Ellen Nakashima
Washington Post Staff Writer

Friday, August 1, 2008; Page A01

Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop computer or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.

Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

"The policies . . . are truly alarming," said Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), who is probing the government's border search practices. He said he intends to introduce legislation soon that would require reasonable suspicion for border searches, as well as prohibit profiling on race, religion or national origin.

DHS officials said the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including U.S. citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism. Officials said such procedures have long been in place but were disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter.

Civil liberties and business travel groups have pressed the government to disclose its procedures as an increasing number of international travelers have reported that their laptops, cellphones and other digital devices had been taken -- for months, in at least one case -- and their contents examined.

The policies state that officers may "detain" laptops "for a reasonable period of time" to "review and analyze information." This may take place "absent individualized suspicion."

The policies cover "any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form," including hard drives, flash drives, cellphones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover "all papers and other written documentation," including books, pamphlets and "written materials commonly referred to as 'pocket trash' or 'pocket litter.' "

Reasonable measures must be taken to protect business information and attorney-client privileged material, the policies say, but there is no specific mention of the handling of personal data such as medical and financial records.

When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed. Copies sent to non-federal entities must be returned to DHS. But the documents specify that there is no limitation on authorities keeping written notes or reports about the materials.

"They're saying they can rifle through all the information in a traveler's laptop without having a smidgen of evidence that the traveler is breaking the law," said Greg Nojeim, senior counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology. Notably, he said, the policies "don't establish any criteria for whose computer can be searched."

Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy." In a statement submitted to Feingold for a June hearing on the issue, he noted that the executive branch has long had "plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border without probable cause or a warrant" to prevent drugs and other contraband from entering the country.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that "the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

With about 400 million travelers entering the country each year, "as a practical matter, travelers only go to secondary [for a more thorough examination] when there is some level of suspicion," Chertoff wrote. "Yet legislation locking in a particular standard for searches would have a dangerous, chilling effect as officers' often split-second assessments are second-guessed."

In April, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in San Francisco upheld the government's power to conduct searches of an international traveler's laptop without suspicion of wrongdoing. The Customs policy can be viewed at: http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel/admissability/search_authority.ctt/search_authority.pdf.

Back in 06 I was jammed up at LAX coming from Tokyo. The lowly TSA worker saw the numerous stamps of different countries in my passport and asked “Does your job pay well.” I responded “If it did not I wouldn’t be able to travel like this now would I?” I am a young black guy TSA worker was a middle age white guy. You could instantly see the mood change in the whole situation. He went all through my luggage found hard copy photos of a non-nude freelancer from Thailand. Found my porn stash I forgot I had which he tried to make out to be child porn (Natural Asshole). Asked all type of personal questions like about the pictures of the freelance because I told him my ex-wife was waiting on me.

Then I asked to speak to a lawyer because they started to ask how I got my government job. They said “Why you need a lawyer you are not under arrest.” Finally after I answered their questions they let me go. Only damage wasted time and my pride because of the porn stash being found. Put I still get some pleasure out of seeing those fools pathetic response to me being young black with some expendable cash….

Just like rapper Mos Def said: “They say won’t you to be successful but that’s not the case your skin is dark you living large they shine a light in your face.”

[Goga Fung]

He was doing his job in a very aggressive fashion and I did resent it a lot and it reminded me of why I don't live in my country any more. But, I stayed calm and very polite and got away with the pills I had. He was an asshole, for sure.

Reason #56 I am glad I am not into porn or photos of women.

I think many of them are aggressive because they really envy guys who travel to other countries and do what they like. I've been bugged a few times in customs, but not that badly. The worst two times were in Aruba! They were 100% sure that I was caring narcotics in my luggage.

Also last time on the trip from Colombia, I was asked lots of stupid questions, like who I know and Colombia and how I know them. They looked at my laptop, asked why it is so dirty even though it is pretty new... I told them because when i eat , food gets on the laptop... Then they asked which store I bought it from... etc... The guy was actually very polite but annoying. And he was Spanish(latin).

They did not ask about any pics, and anyways I never take porn pics. But I would hate if they scan my laptop! I think next time I'm gonna encrypt stuff. I have my personal and work stuff i do not wanna other scan or copy.

Check out the program TrueCrypt. It is free. You can hide all you important files in one file. and it opens as an additional drive of you provide a password.

[Dickhead]

I am a young black guy TSA worker was a middle age white guy.

I'm a middle aged white guy and my customs guy was a younger black guy and I think he was also jealous. This wasn't TSA, though. This was Customs. Now TSA hires some real unqualified losers.

[Chocha Monger]

The math on the Paul McCartney-Heather Mills divorce is as follows:
After 5 years of marriage, he paid her $49 million. Assuming he got sex every night during their 5 year relationship (which would NOT have happened!) it ended up costing him $26,849 per time.

On the other hand, Elliot Spitzer's call girl, Kristen, an absolute stunner with a body like no other, charges $4,000 an hour. For anything!

Had Paul McCartney 'employed' Kristen for 5 years, he would've paid $7.3 million for an hour of sex every night for 5 years (a saving of $41.7 million).
Value-added benefits are: a 22 year old hot babe, no begging, no coaxing, never a headache, plays all requests, ability to put BOTH legs around you (!!!), no bitching and complaining or 'to do' lists. Best of all, she leaves when you're done, and comes back when you ask her. All at 1/7th the cost, with no legal fees.
Sometimes renting makes far more sense.

[Rio D]

Back in 06 I was jammed up at LAX coming from Tokyo. The lowly TSA worker saw the numerous stamps of different countries in my passport and asked “Does your job pay well.” I responded “If it did not I wouldn’t be able to travel like this now would I?” I am a young black guy TSA worker was a middle age white guy. You could instantly see the mood change in the whole situation. He went all through my luggage...

Probably the facetious way you answered the first question set him off, more than the race factor.

[Tarius Shinobi]

Check out: www.fitblackbeauty.com

[Lazzaro]

Every time you have sex with a prostitute, God kills a kitten.
..ehm.. I'm allergic to the cats...... :):):):):)

[Warbucks]

Probably the facetious way you answered the first question set him off, more than the race factor.

He can spend his life going through people luggage I will spend mine going through exotic women pussies :)

[A158]

I think many of them are aggressive because they really envy guys who travel to other countries and do what they like. I've been bugged a few times in customs, but not that badly. The worst two times were in Aruba! They were 100% sure that I was caring narcotics in my luggage.

Also last time on the trip from Colombia, I was asked lots of stupid questions, like who I know and Colombia and how I know them. They looked at my laptop, asked why it is so dirty even though it is pretty new. I told them because when I eat, food gets on the laptop. Then they asked which store I bought it from. Etc. The guy was actually very polite but annoying. And he was Spanish (latin).

They did not ask about any pics, and anyways I never take porn pics. But I would hate if they scan my laptop! I think next time I'm gonna encrypt stuff. I have my personal and work stuff I do not wanna other scan or copy.

Check out the program TrueCrypt. It is free. You can hide all you important files in one file. And it opens as an additional drive of you provide a password. Well a little advice and from personal experince. If you go on vacation to monger, never take a laptop with you. If you are dying to check your e mail or do a little work (I don't know why? ) there are internet cafe's everywhere you go and they are cheap compared to the hassle you may get yourself into if you travel with your laptop and it gets searched or worse, scanned.

As far as porno or revealing photos of girls, with the digital age I recommend you take two memory cards with you. One you load with pictures from the place you are visiting. Lots of things tourists shoot while on vacation and keep that card in your camera when going throug customs. The other card, fill with all kinds of Chica pictures and keep in yur pocket when going through customs. It doesn't beep in metal detectors so you are home free my friend. They can check yor camera as much as they want and with no laptop you are good to go.

Just my two cents

Cheers

A158

EDITOR'S NOTE: I would suggest that the author or another Forum Member consider posting a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please Click Here (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?) for more information.

[Goga Fung]

As far as porno or revealing photos of girls, with the digital age I recommend you take two memory cards with you. One you load with pictures from the place you are visiting. Lots of things tourists shoot while on vacation and keep that card in your camera when going throug customs. The other card, fill with all kinds of Chica pictures and keep in yur pocket when going through customs. It doesn't beep in metal detectors so you are home free my friend. They can check yor camera as much as they want and with no laptop you are good to go.


I guess it's a good idea, but to be 100% safe it is still better to encrypt your "sensitive" data. You can encrypt and save all your pics and movies to a file with any name you like, for example "tomywife.doc" or any other stupid name, and there will be no way anybody would read it(of course you need to set a good password). As I wrote earlier I use the free program TrueCrypt. When you provide your password it opens the "dummy" file as an additional drive on your PC and you can use it exactly the same as a regular hard drive. Then you can close it(dismount), and the drive disappears. I believe it is very safe and convenient. You can always keep such files on your PC without worrying that you wife or GF would realize what it is. And you do not have to do anything like ZIP/Unzip/copy/delete.



Well a little advice and from personal experince. If you go on vacation to monger, never take a laptop with you. If you are dying to check your e mail or do a little work (I don't know why? ) there are internet cafe's everywhere you go and they are cheap compared to the hassle you may get yourself into if you travel with your laptop and it gets searched or worse, scanned.


I do not want to ruin anybody's fun.. but when you use somebody else's computer there is a chance that that computer has a program that reads and saves all keystrokes.

So whenever you use a public PC, I would never get into anything you do not want other's to see, such as banking, paypal, ebay, online trading etc..
To check some hotmail email is probably ok, but I would not use a public PC for anything important. They may save all your logins and passwords. I hope in most cases they do not do it, but I'm sure there have been such cases. At least you wanna select some "good" Internet cafes. I'd avoid some shady looking places. It is very simple to setup such program.

Therefore I think having a personal laptop is actually safer.

[Sgt Perv]

Why not just put them in like a yahoo picture account online? Send them there and then erase your memory. This seems the safest to me unless your pics are really illegal like kiddie stuff. When I travel I always send them there as fast as I get them. When I get home I download them to free up space. Am I missing why this is not the best way to go?

[Gangles]

I have my own views on the morality of prostitution, but I was having a conversation about it a couple of days ago, and the question was asked, is paid phone sex prostitution?

If it is, then the rates of prostitution inAustralia are very high.

Does anyone have an opinion?

Gangles

[Goga Fung]

I have my own views on the morality of prostitution, but I was having a conversation about it a couple of days ago, and the question was asked, is paid phone sex prostitution?

If it is, then the rates of prostitution inAustralia are very high.

Does anyone have an opinion?

Gangles

Dude, everything is prostitution! When I work on my computer, I sell my eyes for money, the eyes and myself get abused and fucked up! This should be illegal!

I do not know why inserting a dick into a vagina for money is illegal here, although it is designed by nature...
but selling other body parts is legal. Does not make any sense.

[Rubber Nursey]

... is paid phone sex prostitution?
do you mean legally or 'morally'?

phone sex falls into the legal definition of prostitution in many states of australia (and probably most other parts of the world). in wa, for example, any kind of sexual gratification for any sort of reward constitutes prostitution, so getting someone off over the phone for $4.95 a minute would technically qualify. in some states, things like penetration by foreign objects or allowing masturbation changes services from 'adult entertainment' to 'prostitution' - eg. watching a peep show is ok, but if you're allowed/encouraged to masturbate in the cubicle, it becomes prostitution. in victoria, a standard strip is adult entertainment, but it's prostitution if she pulls out a vibrator (to masturbate herself and/or penetrate herself). again, phone sex would fall foul of this definition.

of course, the likelihood of a phone sex operator being charged with prostitution offences is slim to none. she may be a 'sex worker', but most people wouldn't consider her a 'prostitute'. i doubt the cops would even know they could charge a phone sex operator with prostitution offences.

that's what happens when you try and make a crime out of something that's indistinguishable from 'normal' sexual behaviour. the definition either doesn't go far enough to include every sort of sex service, or it goes so far that everyone gets caught up in it. in wa's (failed) effort at law reform in 2003, the govt tried to broaden the prostitution definition so much that it would take in strip clubs. then they added a clause that when engaging in 'an act of prostitution', a condom must be worn. i pointed out in my submission that that would mean every strip club patron would need to be wearing a condom while they watched the show. :)

[Snake27]

can someone explain why while prostitution is illegal in usa, but porn is legal?

in porn obviously somebody gets paid for sex. if they want prohibit "immoral" behavior they must prosecute porn first.

it is obvious that porn replaces sex for many people. they have no other choice except buying/watching porn. technically they do pay money for sex!

and in addition to that, porn promotes perversions and many crazy and stupid things one would never come up with if living in a normal healthy free society. i guess people who watch that are really sick. why is it legal to watch a sick movie, but illegal to have sex with a nice real woman and compensate her for her time and effort?

of course everything must be allowed, prostitution and porn. but if they got a reason prohibit prostitution, then they must prosecute porn too including all the actors, photographers, directors, agents(pimps!) and viewers!

could it be because that porn industry is more controlled and they are getting more money out of it, as opposed to if prostitution were allowed the usa porn industry would suffer?

if the "government/church" cares about "moral", in reality they make it worse, prohibiting natural sex, and allowing sick stuff.

i think the main difference is that porn is protected in the usa by the first constitutional amendment that protects free speech, although there are limits on that. there have been several legal attempts to ban porn, but they generally fail the constitutional test. prostitution does not enjoy a similar protection.

regarding your comment that porn "promotes perversions" and that "people who watch that are really sick". first of all, i don't see a problem as long as porn is consumed in moderation. in that case it can be beneficial, relaxing, tension-releasing, etc. and porn is generally cheaper, safer, and more reliable than prostitution, in my experience.

secondly, if such people are sick, there must be a lot of sick people, because porn is a multi-billion dollar industry. a lot of people watch porn who don't admit it. however, i do think it would be much healthier if porn were not one's only sexual outlet. porn should not become a subsitutute for meaningful sexual relationships.

[Warbucks]

Its important to realise that its a girl's character that matters.
Labelling as either decent or *****s is too simplistic.
Sounds like old religious programming to me.
Not simplistic and not religious I am a devout atheist. But I would in no way shape or form call a prostitute decent. I am not a hypocrite. I would not call myself decent; via prostitution and the third world I use my money to take advantage of people who are uneducated, financially strapped young SE Asian women. People say these girls are in dire financial situations I was also once in blue. I was cash strapped on the mean merciless streets of America’s most murderous city. If I had become a criminal would my actions would have been justified since I don’t have anything to sale.



Whether a girl has ever resorted to P4P in desperate financial times is not that relevant to her overall character.
Some P4P girls have far better character than some officially non-P4P.
I disagree again. If I become a criminal because of a need of money then change once I don’t need the money no more again would that be reflection of my character?



Some girls get horny and want to have sex. Its not so evil to accept money for it too when desperate for money. The disturbing part really, is how low a standard of man she is willing to accept for the cash. ?
Ok Mick I agree and disagree here. So if your daughter came to you and said Dad I am horny and I need some money to buy these new sneakers so I am going to fuck the mail man would you be ok with this would tell her go get that money honey?

Now I agree with what you said about the punters. When I go in some Go-Gos and see some of these punters I really feel sorry for these girls. I am no Blair Underwood (said to be the most handsome black man in America) but I hit the gym 4 times a week. I wear the Armani etc…I do my best to look presentable. I remember sitting in a bar in Angeles and all the girls told me I look nice and I smell good telling me the last punter who left smelled bad. I was shocked to say the least. Isn’t personal hygiene just a normal routine?


If everything was turned around backwards, I would fuck for money if I could choose which girls were good enough. ?
Become a porn star Mick. Easy enough to do so.



Some free-lancers and bar-girls have some class and will be choosy about which guys they are willing to go with. I have met bar girls who rarely accept a customer and only go occasionally with some guy they really like.
But on any given night they still go home with various men. This is not what I call a classy woman.



Its a lot tougher for MP girls to knock back customers but does happen. She can always claim he wanted sex with no condom.
We all know condom-less sex is obtainable in SE Asia another problem I have with the biz.



Is every guy that supports a girl financially, sleeping with a *****? If the financial support was not there would she stay?
Nope. She is sleeping with only that guy in “most” situations. Which is the big difference from a *****. Also this whole debate about financially dependent women being *****s is weak. Like I said most of time she is only messing with that guy and in most situations she would hang tough if the guy fell on hard times or less he found a lady that wasn’t devoted…and if that happens then that is the guy’s fault in not taking enough time to settle on a decent mate.




How do you feel about girls that are ex-P4P and don't want to do it anymore and are now doing regular jobs. Are these still *****s?
Nope. They are not still *****s. I use to be a soldier I am not anymore.

PS:

Anybody in Bangkok where are the reports...this belongs in another thread...morality of prostitution maybe?

[Bango Cheito]

I have a different take because I don't see anything wrong with a woman having multiple sex partners, even in the same day. It's HER choice and HER body to use however the fuck she wants, and nobody else should have anything to say about it.

I really don't know why anybody would WANT to have fewer sexual partners, or what the fuck the benefit is supposed to be of such. I just don't see it.

[Warbucks]

Your problem is you see a girl sleeping with multiple guys as comparable to a crime where the guy is forgiven for sleeping with multiple girls.

Why should a girl be devoted to a single guy. Its her choice.not work. I would just encourage my daugther to choose a nice guy and take precautions. I would suggest perhaps that buying gym shoes was

Some of us question the "morals" that we programmed in since childhood and can actually see that they no longer make sense in the modern world.


So now the point that remains is "Is it O.K. for sexual favours to be sold?" "Is it O.K. to pay for them?" two sides of the coin.


Is there anything intrinsically wrong with a girl skilled in sex, charging money for providing this skill. In my opinion no. There is no victim of this supposed "crime".

The true undesirability of prostitutes surely comes from the undesirability of the customers that they have to work with.
So I able to respect bar girls who knock back many potential customers.

I have witnessed a girl in the Thermae knock many guys but finally agree to go with me. Other times I have been knocked back. I respect their choosiness.

If you want sex for free, you just find a girl who is willing. Its as simple as that.
But don't look down on girls who need it as their profession in order to eat. Otherwise stay well away from them.

I have standards. I would never go with a girl unless I like her and think she is O.K. without necessarily being perfect. If she is a b****, then there is no way.

Perhaps you don't understand that many Thai P4Ps are supporting both parents and several brothers and sisters to get a better education.

You won't find many Thai guys supporting an entire family in this way. Many are just unreliable spongers.

When I pay good tip to a P4P, I am not taking advantage of her. I am giving a fair return for her excellent service. I am helping support her and her family. Could be supporting the higher education of her daughter.

Tourism and P4P is greatly helping redistribute wealth though BKK to all poorer regions of the country.

Wrong again Mick. I don’t compare women fucking around with criminal acts just used it as an analogy. I think all people men, women who fuck around with reckless abandon including myself are also clinically sick especially those men who chase prostitutes. You are propagating that mongers are the majority and we are not. I am not saying it is wrong morally or emotionally and I am an advocate I am glad I found the mongering side of life but it’s something most people hide for a reason. A couple of post back on the Thailand board cats were bragging about some bar where girls swallow cum and spit it in a bucket just to go and knock down the next customer and some posters thought this was cool…I don’t know I am only in my 20s but maybe I am just old-fashioned :D

[Warbucks]

I think DW, that you're still a little wrapped up in what society and religion in the US define as "right" and "wrong" or perhaps moral and immoral would be better terms. If, however, you subscribe to the point of view that sex is not only thoroughly enjoyable, but absolutely normal, and that you're only doing what other men (maybe women too) wish they could be doing, you get over the perception of yourself as clinically ill extremely quickly. The fact is that, for most species, polyandry is normal, and monogamy for humans is essentially an invention of human society--primarily religion--developed in an effort to control sexuality and behavior. My rule is much simpler and less agonizing--if it feels good, and if I'm not hurting anyone by indulging in sex, and the young woman is a legal adult and consenting, then it's fine.

Just my take of course.

GE

Hmmm GE you seem to miss the stuff about the cum bucket bar and how some members thought that was great. :) I am not saying sex or prostitution is immoral. I have bought my fair share of pussy over the last few years. I told you guys I am an atheist I don’t think prostitution is immoral. I do think it is poignant. This whole fucking around shit is normal I just don’t buy it man sorry. It’s like Bush for a third term I am not even trying it :) I know a lot of guys who wouldn’t dream of fucking around on their ole ladies. It’s a select few of us myself included who just can’t keep it in the pants no matter what….

There was guy on this site who in his own words fucked a beach road (Pattaya) girl up the ass until he injured her and her bargirl friend start to attack him who was watching the whole act… I guess no one is ever getting hurt…. Victimless crime… yeah ok.

[Lazzaro]

is paid phone sex prostitution?
do you mean legally or 'morally'?
phone sex falls into the legal definition of prostitution in many states of australia (and probably most other parts of the world). in wa, for example, any kind of sexual gratification for any sort of reward constitutes prostitution, so getting someone off over the phone for $4.95 a minute would technically qualify. in some states, things like penetration by foreign objects or allowing masturbation changes services from 'adult entertainment' to 'prostitution' - eg. watching a peep show is ok, but if you're allowed/encouraged to masturbate in the cubicle, it becomes prostitution. in victoria, a standard strip is adult entertainment, but it's prostitution if she pulls out a vibrator (to masturbate herself and/or penetrate herself). again, phone sex would fall foul of this definition.

of course, the likelihood of a phone sex operator being charged with prostitution offences is slim to none. she may be a 'sex worker', but most people wouldn't consider her a 'prostitute'. i doubt the cops would even know they could charge a phone sex operator with prostitution offences.

that's what happens when you try and make a crime out of something that's indistinguishable from 'normal' sexual behaviour. the definition either doesn't go far enough to include every sort of sex service, or it goes so far that everyone gets caught up in it. in wa's (failed) effort at law reform in 2003, the govt tried to broaden the prostitution definition so much that it would take in strip clubs. then they added a clause that when engaging in 'an act of prostitution', a condom must be worn. i pointed out in my submission that that would mean every strip club patron would need to be wearing a condom while they watched the show. :)
rn,

maybe you'll be surprised, but in italy it is not prostitution
it has been qualified as a "service" (pls don't laugh!). and, given that it is a "service", you must specifically ask to your provider, to be qualified for call them, otherwise you can't.
this is for "save" people ****, which, often in the past, have been seduced by tv adv. to call these numbers and the telephone bill at the end of the month was more than 10.000 euro (for 20 or 25 minutes of talk).
now, given that it has been qualified as a "service", there must be a clear voice adv., at the beginning of the call (the voice adv. must be free of charge!) which inform you about the rates, and, also, the call must not be longer than 9 minutes and 59 seconds (why not 10 minutes? boh!) and, also, given that it is a service, should be the owner who should choose if and when use it.
from this, the possibility to preevnt to call these numbers from your telephone (in italy these tel.numbers begins with: 199...; 899...; 898...;...)
workers (male or female) of these "hot lines" are not made equal to prostitutes

[Chocha Monger]

Hmmm GE you seem to miss the stuff about the cum bucket bar and how some members thought that was great. :) I am not saying sex or prostitution is immoral. I have bought my fair share of pussy over the last few years. I told you guys I am an atheist I don’t think prostitution is immoral. I do think it is poignant. This whole fucking around shit is normal I just don’t buy it man sorry. It’s like Bush for a third term I am not even trying it :) I know a lot of guys who wouldn’t dream of fucking around on their ole ladies. It’s a select few of us myself included who just can’t keep it in the pants no matter what….

There was guy on this site who in his own words fucked a beach road (Pattaya) girl up the ass until he injured her and her bargirl friend start to attack him who was watching the whole act… I guess no one is ever getting hurt…. Victimless crime… yeah ok.
Some feminists claim that the woman is always a victim whenever sex occurs between a man and a woman. They base their argument on the position that a hard erect penis penetrating a vagina is patently an act of violence.

Wearing jewelry made of precious metals can be considered a crime with countless victims if one were to account for Third World inhabitants who have their air and drinking water poisoned by the toxins released in the mining process. For all I know I may be unknowingly victimizing the cute undocumented Chinese waitresses at the restaurants that I patronize. They work long hours for little pay and who knows what they must do during their "off hours" to repay the people who brought them here. Someone was probably victimized in the process of manufacturing the clothing that I'm wearing right now. Given the global nature of things you'd be hard pressed not to find victims attached to most goods or services.

This is not to say that abusive behavior is acceptable. Socially well-adjusted people know where to draw the line. That line is drawn before fucking someone up the ass to point of injury.

[Opebo]

There was guy on this site who in his own words fucked a beach road (Pattaya) girl up the ass until he injured her and her bargirl friend start to attack him who was watching the whole act… I guess no one is ever getting hurt…. Victimless crime… yeah ok.

Thanks for the recognition, DW! But I don't see how an unusual accident makes something 'immoral'. And anyway I wasn't really hurt that badly - I mean I didn't get to orgasm, but it only cost me 1,000 baht.

[Warbucks]

Thanks for the recognition, DW! But I don't see how an unusual accident makes something 'immoral'. And anyway I wasn't really hurt that badly - I mean I didn't get to orgasm, but it only cost me 1,000 baht.

I repeat again…prostitution is not immoral but it is poignant and I was not concerned about "you" being hurt but the girl who had a dick shoved up her ass in barbaric manner.

[Opebo]

I repeat again…prostitution is not immoral but it is poignant and I was not concerned about "you" being hurt but the girl who had a dick shoved up her ass in barbaric manner.

As I always endeavor to do, I shoved my dick up her ass in a poignant manner, DW, not a barbaric one.

From Mirriam-Webster's Dictionary:

Poignant

1 pungently pervasive <a poignant perfume>
2 a (1) : painfully affecting the feelings : PIERCING (2) : deeply affecting : TOUCHING b : designed to make an impression : CUTTING <poignant satire>
3 a : pleasurably stimulating b : being to the point : APT

[Piper1]

As I always endeavor to do, I shoved my dick up her ass in a poignant manner ...You gotta admit - that's damn funny. :) Good one O'P. (The dictionary reference is not lost in me either, you sarcastic mofo).

DW - when are you next in Dubai, the land of love?

[Warbucks]

As I always endeavor to do, I shoved my dick up her ass in a poignant manner, DW, not a barbaric one.

From Mirriam-Webster's Dictionary:

Poignant

1 pungently pervasive <a poignant perfume>
2 a (1) : painfully affecting the feelings : PIERCING (2) : deeply affecting : TOUCHING b : designed to make an impression : CUTTING <poignant satire>
3 a : pleasurably stimulating b : being to the point : APT




This is not to say that abusive behavior is acceptable. Socially well-adjusted people know where to draw the line. That line is drawn before fucking someone up the ass to point of injury.


Opebo even though I don’t agree with you most of the time… I respected you. Now that’s gone out of the window. I can’t believe you can be this damn silly/callous for a guy your age. But any western guy who moves to Thailand to teach English, work for peanuts, live paycheck to paycheck, slum it and for no other reason only to bottom feed off Thailand’s infamous trade well…that speaks for itself.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

poignant

SYLLABICATION: poign·ant

PRONUNCIATION: poinynt

ADJECTIVE: 1a. Physically painful: “Keen, poignant agonies seemed to shoot from his neck downward” (Ambrose Bierce). b. KEENLY DISTRESSING TO THE MIND OR FEELINGS: poignant anxiety. c. Profoundly moving; touching: a poignant memory. See synonyms at moving. 2. Piercing; incisive: poignant criticism. 3a. Neat, skillful, and to the point: poignant illustrations supplementing the text. b. Astute and pertinent; relevant: poignant suggestions. 4. Agreeably intense or stimulating: poignant delight. 5. Archaic a. Sharp or sour to the taste; piquant. b. Sharp or pungent to the smell.

Happy New Year

[Kpmgey]

http://apocalips. Wordpress.com/2007/03/12/what-happens-when-men-stop-loving/


What happens when Men stop loving?

Empowered women and men who pretend to be fair have erected a global concentration camp of political correctness that has left the average male depersonalized, bitter and even deformed. Look around honestly. The 21st century man is right there laughing like a ******* at the Hugh Grant matinée. He shares the kitchen sink chores at home and changes nappies. He has been domesticated after being lured into marriage by something called love. It is in reaction to this decimation of the natural male, this creation of a comical character called a good modern husband, that an increasing number of boys and men are rejecting romance all together.

No more wooing the average girl in the office, succumbing to her good words, then putting up with her inevitable tantrums. Not when they have discovered ways of satiating their carnal needs — exotic sex lands and high-end prostitutes. One may think it is all too simplistic. But that’s what the male brain ranging from Albert Einstein’s to Salman Khan’s has always craved for — simplicity of theory.

Shashwat Srivastava, a 27-year-old advertising professional from Delhi, is one such male who believes in hard work, hard cash, and holidays in Thailand, Amsterdam and Rio. He says with the excitement of a new convert, "Earlier, I would meet a pretty girl in the office and try to strike up a conversation. It would take considerable effort to cut through her airs and graces and get talking. The topic of the conversation would be a pain to me, but I would pretend to enjoy every moment. After a few days she would be ready to go out for coffee. This would be followed by a mind-numbing movie. Then another round of coffee. A month would have passed by now. I would still be in hot pursuit. A few weekends later would come the big day for dinner. After the dinner I would, chivalrously, drop her home. And the next day, just when I would expect my big moment to come, I would find her chatting animatedly with the idiot from marketing. What a waste of effort. "

But success in love brings a new set of obstacles. "Many a times you do succeed. And you also end up making love. But then, very quickly, you also fall out of love and start fancying other girls. And then it gets damn difficult to break free from the woman, " says Soumik Naskar, an 18-year-old undergraduate student of information technology at the Government Engineering College, Kalyani, West Bengal. "It’s being unfair to the woman. You know you are in it for sex. So why keep up the pretense? Why not go straight for the nookie by paying for it? "

The new experiment of Indian men with breaking away from social norms and finding love in the commercial place is at a higher state of evolution in the First World. According to a report which appeared in the British Medical Journal in 2005, the percentage of British men who paid for sex had increased from 5. 6 in 1990 to 9 in 2000. But the element of surprise lay in the details. It was not just the fat slob, the sex worker’s client stereotype, who was visiting brothels. The study found an increasing number of successful, attractive men in their mid-twenties to mid-thirties opting to pay for intimacy.

Clare Spurrell, a reporter for The Times of London, interviewed some of these men wondering why "the sort of young man of whom most mothers would approve", paid for sex. "It is difficult for a woman to understand what it is that a prostitute can offer these perfectly attractive men that a free sexual encounter cannot, " Spurrell wrote. The answer Spurrell got was obvious — "lack of any emotional obligation". "It’s happening in the vicinity, " says 41-year-old Vijay Swami, a senior vice-president of a communications agency in Mumbai. "Conversations with friends and acquaintances reveal that quite a few of them are paying for sex. " Ramesh Kaul says that a trend may have started in which men are no longer interested in the women around them. "Flirting used to be and still is the norm when it comes to interaction between men and women at the workplace. But in my previous organization there was this guy who just did not interact with the women apart from in a strictly professional capacity. I found his behavior a bit odd. It emerged gradually that he believed in hard work and earning good money; he did not believe in asking women out, in forging relationships or in love. He preferred chasing exotica. He would go on planned sex tours abroad. "

Radical feminists call the phenomenon a systemic "objectification" of women. But is this objectification really so repulsive to women? Could it be that love was always some sort of a material transaction between a man and a woman? Shekhar Verma, a student of advertising and public relations at the Indian Institute of Mass Communication, New Delhi, says, "In my institute, the boys are out to get the prettiest girls, while the girls are out to get the guys with the best bikes, best mobiles and rich dads. And there’s no such thing as love. So if some men have stopped being hypocritical, what’s wrong with it? "

The tragedy is, says Srivastava, "that though men appreciate the needs of women, women don’t of men. They expect us to listen to and understand everything they say, but don’t realize they are driving us crazy. Women simply rob you of your happiness. So why shouldn’t men make the dealing straight? "

Even among men who like relationships with regular women, there is now a rise in the lure of brothels. That is tied to another fundamental male need — variety. One must understand that being respectable was not, at any point in human history, a fervent male wish. Now men are encashing in on the liberal times.

Marita McCabe, one of the psychologists who conducted a study in Australia in 2000, concluded that men visit sex workers, "not only for sexual activities that their partners do not provide, but also to fulfill certain psychological needs, such as the need for intimacy and excitement. "

Even as an increasing number of men are dismissing monogamy as an unnatural societal condition, what is interesting is that they are conducting this rejection not with any nebulous guilt, but with the conviction of a virtuous ascetic. As Kaul says, "When my son grows up, I will expect him to have fun too. "

[Warbucks]

http://apocalips. Wordpress.com/2007/03/12/what-happens-when-men-stop-loving/

Thats some powerful stuff...That part when it said women rob men of their happiness…that stuck with me.

[DJ FourMoney]

Daddy has some interesting points, I don't agree with most of them however.

Being paid for a sexual favor by definition is Prostitution. Just because her fake name isn't Jasmine and you met her at the office instead of a brothel doesn't change that definition.

It only changes after you put the ring on her finger and even THAT IMHO is iffy at best.

Western Women have successfully fooled you into believing what they do as single women is totally legit whatever the result.

Us "Modern Men" are tired of it and call their bluff, it is what it is. If you get jewels, a car, a phone, clothes, expensive dinner whatever and you then fuck the man that made it possible as a reward for his deeds, unless that is your husband or long term boyfriend (which is part of your job description as a wife/gf) then your a Prostitute!

I am not talking about women involved in relationships, women take advantage of that too, how many women do you know have given the engagement rings back???

Please explain to me even if your hypthical (sp) daughter was as honest as Mother Teresa that she would actually ask her father if its okay to fuck the Mail man for a new Iphone, that's ridiculous!

The reality is she suckers a nerdy student at her high school to provide the phone with the promise of sex and she never keeps her part of the bargain. Who's her gunna tell? Who would believe him? If your daughter was hot and considered to be nice by other students and facility they would think Mr Nerd was lying.... even in the face of facts like a receipts and proof of purchase.

On top of that, you wouldn't even know, do your parents know everything you did in school???

Even when the truth is presented people tend to dismiss it as poppycock...

I actually know a thing or two about "becoming a porn star" and believe me its NOT EASY. If you can have effective sex without any help from drugs with a hot naked woman that wants you to fuck her, but with up to 100 people standing around with bored looks on their faces as they have seen such acts a thousand times then you should be a porn star!

[Warbucks]

Daddy has some interesting points, I don't agree with most of them however…


My hypothetical question is not ridiculous it goes back to the old adage if you feel its ok then you would not have a problem with your kids doing it. That’s the point I was trying to make home boy.

I have never in my life had a western women ask to me to buy her something and she may consider giving me sex. Most western women I knew growing up had their own damn money. Where you be at?

Tell me again why you disagree with what I wrote without providing gold digging bitches as examples :D

I am sorry I can’t even respond to you properly being that your post is so discombobulated.

[Opebo]

...discombobulated.

Love that term.

But the fact is that if your kids have to work for a living in our capitalist system, you probably shouldn't have had them, DW. I think our prudery causes us to make a false dichotomy between sex work and other work - viewed in the hard cold light of a clear understanding of the economic hierarchy, if you're working, you're trapped and powerless. It hardly matters if you're sucking dick or just kissing ass.

[Kpmgey]

Thats some powerful stuff. That part when it said women rob men of their happiness. That stuck with me. Thanks DW,

Yeah a very powerful article. Since I am indian and this article is written in indian context I really connected with it, I have seen this happening with me and my frens many times. I dated women, took them to dinner spend money with no tangible results coming out of that. After I was robed of my happiness like this many times, I got into paid sex. At least things were simple and both parties took care of each other needs. It was easy and comes with no strings attached. After becoming an active monger I really do not feel like getting married. At 28 I am feeling pressure from friends and families to settle down. I just wonder whether I will be happy in a married life. I don't think its for me and really hate the idea of getting married. May be mongers here can throw more light on this whole thing of marriage, men and mongering.

Anyways taking cue from this article I have already planned my trip to Bangkok/Pattaya. Will be in Pattaya on coming 22nd Jan for a short trip of 5 days and would love to catch you up if you are in BKK or Pattaya during that time.

Regards,

Kp

[Piper1]

It hardly matters if you're sucking dick or just kissing ass.If it came down to it, Opebo, I'd prefer to kiss a bit of ass than suck dick. But whatever turns you on.

Is there something you'd like to tell us?

[Erik The Viking]

I have heard Americans say that Europeans accept prostitution in their countries as socially normal. This is false, we just tolerate it, we realize that certain aspects of human nature cannot be easily changed and therefore we just let it go rather than make something small into a criminal offense.

[Gedanken]

apologies in advance if i offend anyone, it's not my intention. do of course feel free to disagree with what i say, their only my opinions after all.

it's fascinating reading through people's feelings and views on mongering. i can't believe that no monger is completely insensitive to the moral issues involved in our hobby. people like daddy warbucks are what i might call a 'nice' monger. i like to think of myself as a 'nice' monger. i've read through a number of posts on this thread and they seem to deploy a handful common methods that we all seem to use to enable us to partake in mongering without killing ourselves from all-consuming guilt:

1) denial about the nature of what we do.

2) denial about the reasons the women have for letting us do it to them.

3) disliking or chastising the women we do it to: if you hate someone, or think that they deserve it, you won't feel guilty about hurting them - just ask the nazis.

4) hating women generally.

5) comparing our mongering to the mongering of others: we are not as bad as other mongers who nastily abuse the girls, since we only abuse the girls nicely.

6) separating ourselves from the negative effects that our mongering has on the girls: the only time you see the girl is the occasion you fuck her, you don't see her when she's back at home pondering and crying about the miserable deal life's dealt her.

7) avoiding situations which will burst the bubble we use to justify what we do to ourselves: for example, i do not tell my friends or family that i do this, so they can't ever call me a piece of shit and point out the grim reality of what i do, all the immorality of it.

8) simply just not thinking about what we do.

9) the girls do get money out of it, so it's not all bad for them.

10) no fear of life after death (thank you, god, for not existing; atheism for the win)
etc.

personally, i use 6), 7) and 8). i think the best definition of prostitution i read was "being paid to let yourself be raped. " that's of course a contradiction (how can you let someone [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) you? ), but you get the point. i guess the rest of this post will only interest mongers who, like me, choose not to indulge in the fantasy of 1). yes, let's avoid fantasy: we go to poor countries to pay for sex with poor women, many of whom will have had little or no education. and even if they are educated, they have no other opportunities to avoid a life of grinding, unending poverty for themselves, and quite possibly their families too. for the girls, it's getting paid to be fucked by all and sundry or a life of even more abject poverty. that's a hard choice for a woman to make, i'm rather glad i was born a man in a rich country. and yes, what we do does have a profoundly negative effect on many, maybe most, of the women we fuck. but still we do it, and enjoy it.

and it's also strange, because many of the guys on here are genuinely bothered about the poverty these girls live in (just trawl the forums for rep001tered comments here and there), and i'm sure if they were pushed on it they would prefer a world in which this poverty didn't exist. but while the poverty's about, and even while we think it's sad, we are still going to take full advantage of it to empty our balls into the kind of girls we can only dream about knobbing back home. it's an amazing (terrifying? ) human capacity which enables us to do such contradictory things.

what examples 1) to 10) show is the requirement for us mongers to justify to ourselves what we do and, crucially, to avoid having anyone take that justification away from us. and that's crucial because, as those of us who have ever met up with a fellow monger for a beer have found, most of us are perfectly-nice, regular chaps. that is to say that your typical monger is not a psychopath, and that means we have to be able to justify to ourselves what we're doing to avoid the guilt. psychopaths aren't capable of feeling guilt, so it doesn't matter whether they knowingly do something wrong. if you can forgive me being slightly pretentious, i'd like to quote harvard psychologist/biologist marc hauser:


there are some questions that are open questions that the behavioral sciences are unlikely to answer. for example, there's a real question right now we're focused on--we know that emotion plays a role in our moral psychology in general. the question is, does emotion follow from the moral judgment or is it the inspirational source of the moral judgment? take people who have been caught and convicted of serious crimes that involve harm to others. the classic clinical diagnosis is: these are people who have very limited emotional development. they don't feel guilt, shame, or remorse. because of those deficiencies, they just don't know what's right or wrong. that may be what's going on, but here's an alternative: they know what's going on, they just don't care. this brings us back to that distinction between the intuitive systems that allow us to make judgments as opposed to those that allow certain kinds of behavior. the alternative is that when we test, we're now in the process of doing, when you test psychopaths in a wide variety of moral dilemmas, our predication is that they'll make judgments very much like normal non-psychopathic individuals, but when it comes to behavior, they will do the wrong thing. emotion failed to check the behavior, but did not affect their moral knowledge. that has some very serious implications for how the law works. this is a case where the richness of the philosophical discussion that's been going on for hundreds of years married with new technologies in the neural sciences will greatly enrich how we understand how the brain makes moral judgments. hauser's book moral minds is supposed to be pretty interesting, i think i'll take a copy with me to read between fucks on a beach somewhere in west africa.

for non-psychopathic chaps like us, it's hard because not only do we know (if we are honest with ourselves) that what we're doing is bad, we do actually care about doing bad things. how, then, to avoid the guilt? well, i think it seems obvious that each of us is going to have to dehumanise the women we do this to, in some way. there's no way any normal man can purposefully go to some poor country to pay very little money to poor women to fuck them, and not hold a slightly dehumanised version of them. my course of dehumanisation was a long, gradual one, starting unintentionally with lots of porn while i was growing up, then intentionally (but subconsciously) moving onto prostitutes in my own country. only once i'd been through that process could i go mongering abroad and not kill myself from the guilt of doing so. the level i have dehumanised women to only allows me to fuck the hottest women, i can't pay to fuck a 'normal' girl and not feel bad about it. but the really good-looking ones i can fuck silly and feel like a king.

and i think this is where we have to be careful not to take our required dehumanisation too far, because if we do then we will end up justifying real, real horror to themselves. me, i'm happy fucking smoking-hot women, so that's all the dehumanisation i need!

i've been mongering just once so far, in poland at the end of 2007 (though obviously i'd seen prostitutes in my own country before then). going to poland was at once the most exhilarating and worst thing i've ever done. i can still remember sitting on the train to the airport, slightly in disbelief, thinking to myself, "shit, i'm actually doing this, i'm actually going to do it. " i can remember the impatient nerves as i picked up the phone in poland for the first time and headed out to see my first polish girl. and i can remember the excited guilt when i thought to myself how much cheaper it was compared to the uk when i handed over that 200pln to fuck a gorgeous 24-year-old.

and it was the worst thing i've done. but i'll do it again as soon as i have the money, this time somewhere in africa for a change of scenery and even lower prices. and quite possibly some freebies from girls desperate to fuck their way out of the poverty they were born in. never been to west africa, looks beautiful.

sorry this was so long. as i said at the start, i just find it interesting how all of us regular guys can do this and live with ourselves. i just love fucking hot, exotic women so much.

[Jan 156]

8) Simply just not thinking about what we do.
Personally, I use 6), 7) and 8).

Errmmm . . . excuse me, but don't you maybe think you think about it quite a lot to put all that on here?

There are one or two holes in your theory too. It totally ignores the top end. Escorts that make a bundle of dosh and take a great pride in what they do and the choice they've made. They are a minority, but I know one or two quite well and they are not the stereotype of poor abused girl, they are the Diary of a Call Girl types only more secure.

I think you can also be influenced by the climate you monger in. Most of the Asian women I've met have been just as you say once you scratch the surface. Compare that to Brasil and - well there's not much comparison. I'd say they still cover the range of f*cked up to not particularly f*cked up, but not much more than women generally if you'll excuse what might appear a sexist comment though I don't think it is (women score higher on neuroses than men - men's screw ups tend to be more towards pyschotic and so more hidden).


Of your reasons, I think I only use 7 and that only part of the time. Some of my friends (not all guys or p4p women) know and see nothing wrong with it.

[ManonsanBoy]

Prostitution is a commercial transaction. If donw with a free will and without too much pimping, it is OK. Just about everything else is morally wrong.

[Gedanken]

Errmmm . . . excuse me, but don't you maybe think you think about it quite a lot to put all that on here?Yes, I think that's a fair criticism. So perhaps I actually do indulge in one of the other numbers, or some other fantasy, and am deceiving myself.


There are one or two holes in your theory too. It totally ignores the top end. Escorts that make a bundle of dosh and take a great pride in what they do and the choice they've made. They are a minority, but I know one or two quite well and they are not the stereotype of poor abused girl, they are the Diary of a Call Girl types only more secure.Yes, this is a fair criticism and I agree with you about the high-end escorts making megabucks. I meant only to talk about girlies in poor countries earning enough to support themselves and their families.


I think you can also be influenced by the climate you monger in. Most of the Asian women I've met have been just as you say once you scratch the surface.Again, a fair point. My only experience is limited to rich-world prostitution and one trip to Poland; hardly extensive. Others will surely have different views etc. based on their own experience, as you say.


Compare that to Brasil and - well there's not much comparison. I'd say they still cover the range of f*cked up to not particularly f*cked up, but not much more than women generally if you'll excuse what might appear a sexist comment though I don't think it is (women score higher on neuroses than men - men's screw ups tend to be more towards pyschotic and so more hidden).I can't comment on this, no first-hand experience of Brazil.


Of your reasons, I think I only use 7 and that only part of the time. Some of my friends (not all guys or p4p women) know and see nothing wrong with it.OK. Well, we all have our different ways, though I think many would not own up to being honest about the reasons they use so that they can continue to justify what they do to themselves, what we all justify to ourselves. And I think reason 7) means that some readers might get angry with me, for seemingly trying to burst their bubble (though that's not my intention).

Thanks for your reply.

[Gedanken]

Prostitution is a commercial transaction. If donw with a free will and without too much pimping, it is OK. Just about everything else is morally wrong.Thanks for your reply. It's good to get feedback, it forces you to rethink things. Maybe some day I will come around to your viewpoint. I don't know. I'm happy with the views and justifications I have at the moment. They let me fuck uber-hot women whilst stopping me from turning into some kind of monster.

[Warbucks]

It's fascinating reading through people's feelings and views on mongering. I can't believe that no monger is completely insensitive to the moral issues involved in our hobby. People like Daddy warbucks are what I might call a 'nice' monger. I like to think of myself as a 'nice' monger. I've read through a number of posts on this thread and they seem to deploy a handful common methods that we all seem to use to enable us to partake in mongering without killing ourselves from all-consuming guilt:

1) Denial about the nature of what we do.

2) Denial about the reasons the women have for letting us do it to them.

3) Disliking or chastising the women we do it to: If you hate someone, or think that they deserve it, you won't feel guilty about hurting them - just ask the Nazis.

4) Hating women generally.

5) Comparing our mongering to the mongering of others: We are not as bad as other mongers who nastily abuse the girls, since we only abuse the girls nicely.

6) Separating ourselves from the negative effects that our mongering has on the girls: The only time you see the girl is the occasion you fuck her, you don't see her when she's back at home pondering and crying about the miserable deal life's dealt her.

7) Avoiding situations which will burst the bubble we use to justify what we do to ourselves: For example, I do not tell my friends or family that I do this, so they can't ever call me a piece of shit and point out the grim reality of what I do, all the immorality of it.

8) Simply just not thinking about what we do.

9) The girls do get money out of it, so it's not all bad for them.

10) No fear of life after death (thank you, God, for not existing; atheism for the win)


Sorry this was so long. As I said at the start, I just find it interesting how all of us regular guys can do this and live with ourselves. I just love fucking hot, exotic women so much.

....You said everything I wanted to say in a clinical-educated manner that I could never conjure up. Glad to see it's some guys out there who think like me instead of the sadistic guys who couldn’t give a rat’s ass who they hurt or infect….

Hope to read more from you.

[Opebo]

Gedanken,

The one problem with your analysis is this - there is no difference between prostitution and any other form of employment, except that you assign a special value or meaning to sexual acts. Of course all interactions between humans in our hierarchical society are based on power and exploitation, prostitution neither more nor less.

[Dickhead]

Sex is a basic human need. Food is a basic human need. Let's juxtapose the two. I want food so I go to a place that sells food and I pay for food. Now the average brainwashed, guilt-ridden, imperialist-apologist Western man sees nothing wrong with that. Right?

When I want sex I go to a place that sells sex and I pay for it. Or I call a friend who is a prostitute and she comes to my house and gives me sex and I give her money. I view these transactions as identical to grocery shopping or getting my laundry done. Except, they are more fun.

Certainly prostitution can be structured in an exploitative form, such as promising some young, ignorant girl a job and then trapping her into working in a brothel. I don't participate in any such activities, and I'm experienced enough to know the difference. Some of the women I see are poorly educated and some are not. Most have other career alternatives but those alternatives require more effort for less money. When I was young and dumb I worked very hard for very little money. Now I work about ten hours a week as a year-round average, make about $50k US, and spend about $25k US, and fuck about five times a week. I could have stayed in the US and married some hag who would get fatter each year and give me less pussy each year, while working at a stressful job. If I did that I could probably make $100k a year and I would still be spending every dime on bullshit like linens and lawn fertilizer and I would be pussy whipped and miserable.

Most of my hooker friends are fairly young and as young people everywhere in every profession do, they blow most of their money on stupid shit. But, not all of them. One of my hooker friends bought her own apartment, and then another in the same building, and then another. She is a slumlord as would be said in the US. Is that wrong? Is that exploitative? Don't know, don't care. Another owns her own barbershop. She cuts hair for people who don't have the ability or desire to cut their own hair, and she takes money for it. Shockingly exploitative of those poor helpless people who don't have barbering skills, isn't it?

I could get a pair of scissors and two mirrors and cut my own hair, and I would save money, but it would not look as good as if a professional barber had cut it. I could masturbate and take care of my basic needs, and I would save money, but it would not feel as good as sex with a professional prostitute. Instead I have a professional barber who is a professional prostitute come over and cut my hair and fuck the snot out of me. On the days she cuts my hair I give her the going rate for a haircut on top of what I give her for sex, even though I am sure she would cut it for "free," because I don't want to exploit her.

It all goes back to the doctrine of comparative advantage. The hookers I see have pussy and need money. I have money and need pussy. Both parties benefit. End of story.

[Gangles]

Reading through Gedanken's analysis, which is all about western males and asian or other female prostitutes.

Does the same analysis apply to white western women who go to african countries for paid sex with young black men?

Are these young men prostitutes or gigolos?

G

[Gangles]

Another question in the same vein.

Is phone sex prostitution?

G

[Dickhead]

Then suppose every time you were hungry you had to find someone who had food, buy them drinks and dinner, and then maybe they would give you some food if they felt like it, or not. And if they did decide to give you food, it would be the food they liked, prepared the way they like it. Then after giving you the food, they would blackmail you with promises of possible future food at some future time to be determined by them.

Get the picture?

[Dickhead]

Reading through Gedanken's analysis, which is all about western males and asian or other female prostitutes.

Does the same analysis apply to white western women who go to african countries for paid sex with young black men?

Are these young men prostitutes or gigolos?

G

Gigolo is just a synonym for male prostitute. The words mean the same thing.

[Dickhead]

Another question in the same vein.

Is phone sex prostitution?

G

Of course it is.

[Gedanken]

i'll reply to dickhead tomorrow, but thanks for your post!


does the same analysis apply to white western women who go to african countries for paid sex with young black men? i would say so, yes. i can't stand the way many western women portray their sex tourism as innocent 'summer love'. at least we guys don't fuck around with silly nonsense like that!


. you said everything i wanted to say in a clinical-educated manner that i could never conjure up. glad to see it's some guys out there who think like me instead of the sadistic guys who couldn’t give a rat’s ass who they hurt or infect.

hope to read more from you. thank you for your kind words, i'm glad we agree!


the one problem with your analysis is this. there is no difference between prostitution and any other form of employment, except that you assign a special value or meaning to sexual acts. of course all interactions between humans in our hierarchical society are based on power and exploitation, prostitution neither more nor less. yes, i agree with what you say here. certainly the current setup we have in a our shitty, selfish, materalistic, capitalist societies in western europe and north america are highly exploitative. we rent ourselves to our employers, the girls rent themselves to us.

you can read some interesting stuff by a guy called george fitzhugh, a 19th-century intellectual who argued in favour of slavery. if you can forgive me, i'll quote him briefly (this is from his book cannibals all! , http://reactor-core.org/cannibals-all.html). my understanding of his argument is that while a black slave was sold to a master, a white slave (an employee) was rented by his employer. and not just that, a white employee (a white slave) goes without any of fitzhugh's alleged 'benefits' that a black slave would get. for example, when we've finished renting ourselves out for the day and knock off work, fitzhugh argues that we've still got to perform all the other myriad tasks necessary to live:


we are, all, north and south, engaged in the white slave trade, and he who succeeds best, is esteemed most respectable. it is far more cruel than the black slave trade, because it exacts more of its slaves, and neither protects nor governs them. we boast that it exacts more, when we say, "that the profits made from employing free labor are greater than those from slave labor. " the profits, made from free labor, are the amount of the products of such labor, which the employer, by means of the command which capital or skill gives him, takes away, exacts or "exploitates" from the free laborer. the profits of slave labor are that portion of the products of such labor which the power of the master enables him to appropriate. these profits are less, because the master allows the slave to retain a larger share of the results of his own labor, than do the employers of free labor. but we not only boast that the white slave trade is more exacting and fraudulent (in fact, though not in intention, ) than black slavery; but we also boast that it is more cruel in leaving the laborer to take care of himself and family out of the pittance which skill or capital have allowed him to retain. when the day's labor is ended, he is free, but is overburdened with the cares of family and household, which make his freedom an empty and delusive mockery. but his employer is really free, and may enjoy the profits made by others' labor, without a care or a trouble as to their well-being. the negro slave is free, too, when the labors of the day are over, and free in mind as well as body; for the master provides food, raiment, housing, fuel, and everything else necessary to the physical well-being of himself and family. the master's labors commence just when the slave's end. no wonder men should prefer white slavery to capital, to negro slavery, since it is more profitable, and is free from all the cares and labors of black slave-holding. fitzhugh goes on to criticise the wealthy "good and respectable people" who do no work at all, simply living off the back of other people's work. our rich people are rather like pimps, really.

i was reading that when waged labour first came in, the people at the time thought it totally degrading as it literally meant renting yourself out. how degrading is it to rent yourself out like some pseudo slave? nowadays waged labour is all pervasive, i mean it's all we've ever known, so that we just accept it without criticism.

and so with my detour finished: yes, i'll agree with you certainly that essentially all economic activity in our society is exploitative, but i'll also state clearly that the exploitative nature of the capitalist employer-employee relationship cannot justify the exploitative nature of the sex industry. both are wrong, we're not allowed to use the omnipresent exploitation we experience at work to justify the exploitation we perpetrate on the women we fuck. not to mention the fact that there's no way the negative effects of us renting ourselves to our employers can be seriously compared to effects on these poor-country girls renting themselves to us.

i'm very hesitant to post this last bit: i think it takes a good amount of a perverse sort of strength to do what we do and enjoy it. sections of that **** himmler's famous poznan speech spring to mind: "i want to mention a very difficult subject before you here, completely openly. it should be discussed amongst us, and yet, nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public. to have gone through this, and at the same time. apart from exceptions caused by human weaknesses. to have remained decent, has made us hard, and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned. " well, not mentioned to our friends and family, at any rate! and of course you can't meaningfully compare mongering with genocide!

**gedanken**

p.s. no, i'm not pro-slavery, just to be perfectly clear. renting yourself out in today's regulated fashion is not as bad as being sold in an unregulated fashion. not that i actually have any more choice about renting myself out than a slave had about selling him/herself. though i suppose i could sit on government hand-outs for my whole life. actually, i said "unregulated fashion, " but does anyone know if there were ever laws in force and which were actually policed that set out minimum standards for masters to treat their slaves by? slave rights? today, of course, we have employment/labour laws, health and safety legislation etc. just wondering if there were ever 'equivalent' (using that word really loosely! ) laws in slave societies.

[Gedanken]

No offence intended at any point, Dickhead. Please feel free to disagree with what I've written below. And finally, thanks very much for taking the time to share your thoughts.


Sex is a basic human need. Food is a basic human need. Let's juxtapose the two. I want food so I go to a place that sells food and I pay for food. Now the average brainwashed, guilt-ridden, imperialist-apologist Western man sees nothing wrong with that. Right?

When I want sex I go to a place that sells sex and I pay for it. Or I call a friend who is a prostitute and she comes to my house and gives me sex and I give her money. I view these transactions as identical to grocery shopping or getting my laundry done. Except, they are more fun.You asked the question, "Right?" but I will have to give the reply, "Yes, but I disagree with what you say afterwards."

'Paying for sex = Paying for food' is your equation. It's important to remember that when we are equating two things we must be able to equate each of the relevant qualities. For example, a colourless rectangle has two variable qualities**: its length and its width. If I state the equation 'colourless rectangle 1 = colourless rectangle 2' to mean that 'the two rectangles are the same shape', then I must be able to equate the relevant qualities of length and width - both qualities. If the length of each is the same, but they have different widths, then our equation is not valid since they will have at least one differing quality and so will not be the 'same shape'.

** That's not strictly true, but I'm hoping the third is subtle enough for me to get away with ignoring it!

So we've got to be careful when making comparisons. For this and other another reason I'd actually like to restate your argument in more detail.

Our final end (or goal) in each case is satisfying some inescapable human desire. In our first case the end is to satisfy hunger; in the other it's to satisfy sexual desire. The means by which the first end is obtained is eating food; the means by which the second is obtained is ejaculation.

Eating food satisfies hunger.
|-MEANS--|--------END--------|
Ejaculation satisfies sexual desire.

In your scenario, there is also a second means-ends situation to consider: namely the method by which the means are procured. In both cases the means of satisfaction are acquired via the payment of money:

(I) Pay money to buy the means.
(II) Use that purchased means to satisfy the desire.

Or to use our specific examples:

(I) Pay money to buy some food.
(II) Eat the food to satsify the hunger.

(I) Pay money to buy an opportunity to fuck a hot girl.
(II) Actually fuck the hot girl and cum to satsify the horn.

That is the situation, two steps rather than one. Without this clarification it enables you to slip in a sneaky step which is otherwise hard to point out. What you tried to sneak in was the following shorter version:

(I) Pay money to satisfy the desire.

Or to use our specific examples:

(I) Pay money to satsify the hunger

(I) Pay money to satisfy the horn

The act of handing over money, the act of making a payment does not satisfy hunger or horn. Eating food and fucking do respectively satisfy hunger and horn. That should be clear enough.

Your argument then proceeds as follows:


Sex is a basic human need. Food is a basic human need.First, you correctly note that hunger and sexual desire are both perfectly-normal, inescapable human feelings which will only go away if they are satisfied. Again: there is nothing wrong with feeling hunger or sexual desire, since they're perfectly normal and unavoidable, and they will return again and need to be 're-satisfied'. In this sense, you are right to say that hunger and sexual desire can be validly compared, and so we'll accept that comparison as legitimate for argument's sake and proceed.


I want food so I go to a place that sells food and I pay for food, [nothing wrong with that]. Right?This is where your sleight of hand sneaks in. The reason there is nothing wrong with what you describe is because there is nothing wrong with any of the two steps I pointed out above. You've used the shorter version of the argument in which payment of money is the means, rather than the method of acquiring the means. You can then claim (via this shorter, straightforward argument) that satisfying sexual desire (which we've already agreed is just like hunger) is also done by paying money, therefore there is nothing wrong with paying for sex.

Over all, your logic is follows:

a) There is nothing wrong with feeling hungry.
b) There is nothing wrong with eating food.
c) There is nothing wrong with paying for food.
d) Therefore it's OK to satisfy hunger by eating food bought with cash.

a)-d) is actually perfectly OK, but then you generalise this conclusion to all human desires, without any attempted, valid justification for such a generalisation:

It's OK to satisfy any normal human desire by using a means of satisfaction bought with cash.

Having assumed your generalisation to be correct, you then simply proceed to work backwards:

i) It's OK to satisfy any normal human desire by using a means of satisfaction bought with cash.
(ii) Sexual desire is a normal human desire.
(iii) A prostitute is a means of satisfaction bought with cash.
(iv) Therefore it's OK to satisfy sexual desire by fucking prostitutes.

Such a straightforward comparison just won't do because the whole question is whether there is anything wrong with the means of satisfaction in the case of prostitution - and the means is not paying money, as I've already explained. At no point did you justify assuming that general conclusion to be true.

I've criticised the logic of this argument, but there are other possible approaches that can be made by recalling our above discussion of qualities. I'll just give two of them:

Firstly, hunger and sexual desire are not human needs of the same sort. You will die if you do not satisfy your hunger, but you will not die if you do not satisfy sexual desire (though it feels otherwise). So your comparison of the two is not acceptable from this point of view.

Secondly, while there is only one way that a person can satisfy hunger (eating), there are two ways a person can quell sexual desire: wanking or fucking. So your comparison of the two is not acceptable from this point of view.

If I could be so brave, Dr. Gedanken will diagnose justification 1) in your case, Dickhead! It's not grocery shopping as you would like to believe. Rather it's the case that we all like that cheap, hot, exotic pussy, and can get away with enjoying it if we can justify it to ourselves. Personally I know it's wrong, but I can live with myself all the while I stick to paying for smoking-hot women and abusing them nicely.


Certainly prostitution can be structured in an exploitative form, such as promising some young, ignorant girl a job and then trapping her into working in a brothel. I don't participate in any such activities, and I'm experienced enough to know the difference. Some of the women I see are poorly educated and some are not.I think Dickhead's a 'nice' monger!


The hookers I see have pussy and need money. I have money and need pussy. [Snip!] End of story.Yeah, I agree, very succinctly put. That's what it comes down to for all of us, really. No justifying what we do, but then we don't care to justify it, do we? We just want to avoid feeling guilty about it so we can enjoy it. Or at least I know I do! =)

[Warbucks]

Yes I agree to some extent and purposes all jobs are exploitive but comparing whoring to other “normal” jobs is ludicrous. Man put yourself in these girls’ shoes. That is your body and to give to someone else to use and abuse for few bucks and hour not in a labor-type manner. I mean all you have to do is read through a couple of these threads you will find some twisted individuals around here pissing on girls (R. Kelly wanna Be’s) and shit… then they say shit like well she asked me to do it….if she asked you to drink her blood or punch her face because it gets her off are you going to do that too?

One guy said well prostitution is where you should push sex to the extreme but here is the catch these prostitutes are still women, human beings. So you got some guys who tell the girls you must take it up ass, you must fuck me all night because I am paying you. Dehumanization of the worst kind. Go back to the Bangkok thread to the month of October I was in Bangkok at that time if you want to see why sometime I think this is a shit business.

All you mongers got mothers I know and some of you got daughters.

I had an 18 year old working girl in Thailand started crying profusely on me one night I felt like shit. I didn’t do anything out of the ordinary to her just basic sex, didn’t force her or anything but she was new to game, lack of sex skills, zero English, big tell-tell signs.

All I could do was put a few Baht in her hand which I knew that money couldn’t console her dignity that had been lost by having some strange black man in her bed. I had another Filipina in Dubai tell me how she was duped into coming to Dubai by friend who told her you need to pay back your plane ticket and visa money…was it a con or was she telling the truth :confused:

It’s a dirty game.

Most of us are devout proponents of prostitution simply because we are consumers. I mean you got guys who move to foreign countries for no other reason but to partake in the sex-trade. It’s no different than people complaining about Obama may take our War-jobs by ending the wars. You know they are totally oblivious to the suffering of the nations at war just as mongers are oblivious or try to be working girls.

Guys trying to shine shit and call it gold I am not buying it. It’s like Bush for a third presidential term I am not even trying it.

[Bango Cheito]

Yeah, *****s put their bodies and psyches on the line in their profession at times, but they aren't the only ones. And besides, who's to say living a live in some suburban bubble in middle America is any better? It may be comfortable, and human beings tend to seek comfort, but in America we have a real false notion at times of comfort being the summum bonum...there's something to be said for lifestyles which promote improvement of CHARACTER, which is something we sorely lack due to the overdose of comfort.

[Dickhead]

Well Gedanken I think you are a very intelligent, complex person and I am just a dickhead but I think the flaw in your logic is comparing masturbation to actual sex with an actual woman. Yes, it produces an ejaculation but to me it is not satisfying. The analogy I would make in response to that is a corn-based diet versus a wheat-based diet (and I mean corn in the American sense, not in the British sense). In the short run one can survive on either. In the long run, a corn-based diet (or a manioc based diet) leads to malnutrition (specifically pellagra), poor vision, and a shortened life span. One survives but one doesn't thrive.

Daddy, you seem very conflicted. You monger but you put down mongers. What is up with that? I hear what you are saying and I've met a few of these weird, freaky mongers but there are weird, freaky people everywhere. I don't ever make a woman do anything she does not want to do. If she doesn't like sexual practice X I will not enjoy sexual practice X and I won't do it with her. Of course, since I know several chicas who will do any god damn thing I can think of, and happily, that sort of takes all of this out of the equation.

In a mongering situation, essentially the monger is the boss and the chica is the employee. I'm sure we've all had good bosses and shitty bosses. I try to be a good one. I also avoid young, inexperienced, hesitant hookers; that eliminates a lot of problems.

Guilt is a useless emotion. We all know right from wrong so stick with right and forget all the Judeo-Christian morality/guilt bullshit.

[Gangles]

we are told that the ideal job is to be paid for doing something that we really enjoy.

if prostitutes enjoy sex, then they have the ideal job.

for the not many times that i have been with a prostitute, i can think of none where the woman did not enjoy herself, more or less.

i treat them with respect. i try to make sure that the woman has one or more orgasms, and i cannot think of a time, except once, when she did not want to stay. i think i am sensitive enough to know if she is faking it, or not enjoying our sex.

and she gets paid a very high rate compared with her peers.

i also suspect that they are getting out from under the opressive sexual mores which severely restrict their ability to be as sexually active as they want to be.

the autobiographies of australian prostitutes now coming onto the market do not speak of opression, or abuse, they speak of being in a position of power, they can choose who they want to have sex with, and for how long, how much, and what type. they get paid large amounts of money. none of them disliked sex, and generally enjoyed what they were doing.

g

[Dickhead]

However, in many types of prostitution the hooker cannot chose with whom she wants to have sex and must "take all comers," so to speak. Or, it can be the case that they can refuse to a limited degree but will get canned if they do this very often. This is the case where I live, under certain structures.

Do I have a problem with that? Not really, as long as they weren't forced into the job to begin with. There have been some cased of forced prostitution where I live, but they are the exception and not the rule.

I just think the issue is a lot like abortion. If you think abortion is morally wrong, don't have an abortion. If you think prostitution is morally wrong, don't participate in it. Gedanken is a hypocrite. He does it and feels guilty about it. I do it and I don't feel the least bit guilty and I never have.

[Gedanken]

Well Gedanken I think you are a very complex person.Thank you for your kind words, Dickhead. I would like to make clear my belief, and I'm sure you'll agree with it, that the words of people who come across as thoughtful deserve no more special attention or praise than anyone else's. I hope you did see that at no point did I insult you or criticise your arguments by attacking you personally. I simply explained what I felt the problems were with your argument, just as others, like yourself, have explained what they felt the problems were with my arguments. Thanks again for your feedback.


Gedanken is a hypocrite. He does it and feels guilty about it. I do it and I don't feel the least bit guilty and I never have.Awww, and I was so nice and polite to you all the way through my post! Then you call me a hypocrite! :(

Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion of me, but I would ask you to also read one of the other posts that I made, as you'll find that I did say that "I fuck smoking-hot girls and feel like a king," or whatever my words were. I do not feel guilty about mongering now, I've found a way to do it and not feel guilty about it. I just think it's a remarkable situation many of us regular guys are in, in that while we do not feel guilty about it, we do know that what we do is wrong. We're not psychopaths, but we know it's wrong and we don't feel guilty. Crazy! What many seem to argue is, "I don't feel guity, therefore it's OK," which is not an acceptable argument. After all, a psychopath could say the same thing about murdering someone: "I don't feel guilty, therefore it's OK."


All I could do was stick some baht in her hand...Yeah, I've been there, I'm sure others have too. You feel like the biggest **** in the whole world. I remember visiting an average-looking Thai girl here in London, and we got about half-way through before I realised she really, really wasn't enjoying it. It wasn't that she was in physical pain or anything, but you could just see from the glazed look on her face that in her mind she didn't want to be there. I just finished up straight away after realising that and, like you, felt so guilty I handed over some more cash to try to soothe my conscience and cheer her up. I mean, what else can you do in that situation? She feels shit, you feel shit, and the pair of you can't undo the encounter or magic her life better... But at least you can give her a bit more money so she can buy something to try to cheer herself up with later. I don't know...

Anyway, that's why I now stick to only fucking uber-super hotties. Real hotties do at least get a shit-load more cash for their time. It's also pretty easy to objectify/dehumanise a girl who you almost come over just by looking at her. Dehumanising and objectifying an average girl is much harder, at least in my one-off experience. But then why would anyone want to pay to fuck anything but red hot girls? You can go to a pub or club and pick up an average girl easily enough, so it seems pointless - just my opinion, though.

One last obvious thing I might have mentioned before: It is no better and no worse to go mongering abroad purely because it costs you less. I know the fact that handing over such a small amount (for us) of money to gain access to her body makes you feel like an exploitative bastard. In some situations it might be true, but we've got to be careful about making wild generalisations. At the end of it, as Dickhead rightly points out, the thing which every girl gets out of it is money. That is always true. Given that, it's what the money means to them which is the important thing. I did feel a little bit guilty handing over those 200 zloty to fuck a hot Polish girl, but afterwards I thought how little sense that made. 200 or 300 zloty to her in Poland is like £200 or £300 to a girl in central London. Always keep in mind that it's what the money means to her in her poor country, not to us in our rich country, which is the important thing. Again, I'm not saying paying hot-but-poor girls for sex is OK, it's just in most cases it's no worse than seeing a gorgeous, rich-world prostitute. Though I'm open to being convinced otherwise!


Guys trying to shine shit and call it gold I am not buying it. It’s like Bush for a third presidential term I am not even trying it.Loving those rhyming skills!

Treat them nicely, guys!

**Gedanken**

[Opebo]

Gedanken,
Interesting response, and yes, I've read of Fitzhugh. However let me just point out that I do not consider the exploitation inherent in our brutal, hierarchical ape-society to be 'wrong'. It seems unreasonable to me to claim that 'objective morality' exists. I was just trying to be accurate about the situation, not make any ethical claims.

I think one may only reasonably say 'I don't like A', not 'A is wrong'. Because obviously some other people may like A, and there is no reason they should adopt or accept your preference. For A insert what you like - prostitution, making girls cry, mass murder, etc.

[Dickhead]

Gedanken says: "I do not feel guilty about mongering"

Then in the same post he says: "felt so guilty I handed over some more cash," followed by "I did feel a little bit guilty handing over those 200 zloty to fuck a hot Polish girl."

Just a tadly bit contradictory.

But I'm not in the camp of "we know it's wrong and we don't feel guilty." I don't think it's wrong. I've been doing it since I was 15 and I never thought it was wrong. If I thought it was wrong, I wouldn't do it, because I am not a hypocrite. Then Daddy Warbucks will say, "How would you feel if your sister was doing it?" and I will say I wouldn't give a shit unless some pimp was forcing her into it. I hate pimps.

Hey Daddy, if a woman asks you to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) on her and you do it, is that wrong? Because I've done that. It doesn't turn me on but I aim to please (so to speak). I had a woman ask me to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) up her ass once, in fact.

[Gedanken]

Dickhead,

I can see what you're saying, just like you see what I'm saying, and so I think we will just have to agree to disagree about whether mongering is wrong or not. And apologies, I didn't mean to imply that you thought mongering was morally OK simply because it felt OK to you.

Likewise, Opebo, I think opening up whole branches of philosophy and science for discussion, which is where we'd have to go from here in discussing human morality, is rather too ambitious, and so I reckon that we also must agree to disagree!

All my best wishes to you both!

**Gedanken**

[Warbucks]

Daddy, you seem very conflicted. You monger but you put down mongers. What is up with that? I hear what you are saying and I've met a few of these weird, freaky mongers but there are weird, freaky people everywhere. I don't ever make a woman do anything she does not want to do. If she doesn't like sexual practice X I will not enjoy sexual practice X and I won't do it with her. Of course, since I know several chicas who will do any god damn thing I can think of, and happily, that sort of takes all of this out of the equation.

I am conflicted DH. I enjoy having multiple young women in my bed but the way in which it has been happening does disturb me from time to time. Because some girls like it does not take everything out of the equation. Because you spend your time with true blue probably mentally disturbed sluts there are lot of WGs out there who only do this line of work to survive.



In a mongering situation, essentially the monger is the boss and the chica is the employee. I'm sure we've all had good bosses and shitty bosses. I try to be a good one. I also avoid young, inexperienced, hesitant hookers; that eliminates a lot of problems.

That’s bullshit. A monger relationship is like a business partnership you are not the boss you can’t demand her to do what you damn well please just because you paid her. That’s why it’s good to agree what is done before the deal is sealed. I have had different ages and it doesn’t matter. I had an 18 year bar girl in PI damn near fuck me to death. So “young” has nothing to do with it.



Guilt is a useless emotion. We all know right from wrong so stick with right and forget all the Judeo-Christian morality/guilt bullshit.
That’s a true “Dickhead” attitude” guilt is useless emotion.” So I should commit crimes, create mass mayhem and not feel anything after doing it. Morality for me has nothing to do with religion I am a devout atheist I think all theist need their head examine but I still know right from wrong. You sound like a real nut job here.


Gedanken,
I think one may only reasonably say 'I don't like A', not 'A is wrong'. Because obviously some other people may like A, and there is no reason they should adopt or accept your preference. For A insert what you like - prostitution, making girls cry, mass murder, etc.

Wow this is stupid. Using this logic I should rob O (insert any name for O you like) when I see him since I think robbing him is right. I mean it’s not wrong because I think so but O may not like it but I like it so no harm. No reason for me to accept you guys preference that robbing is wrong.

You guys are hilarious.


Gedanken says: "I do not feel guilty about mongering"
Then in the same post he says: "felt so guilty I handed over some more cash," followed by "I did feel a little bit guilty handing over those 200 zloty to fuck a hot Polish girl." Just a tadly bit contradictory.
He said he felt guilty about young girl crying not about mongering same as me. Pay attention to what you read.


don't[/b] think it's wrong. I've been doing it since I was 15 and I never thought it was wrong. If I thought it was wrong, I wouldn't do it, because I am not a hypocrite. Then Daddy Warbucks will say, "How would you feel if your sister was doing it?" and I will say I wouldn't give a shit unless some pimp was forcing her into it. I hate pimps.

No you may not be a hypocrite but given your tenure with prostitutes and your level of denial I would say you are something else. I don’t think prostitution is wrong but it is disturbing to me and I shudder to think if one of my seeds or relative became one. Maybe I have not been mongering long enough to destroy my own humanity don’t know :confused: as I fear some of you have.

Why you hate pimps? They are only profiting off others suffering… according to some of those on this thread who feel society as a whole is. If a prostitute is stupid enough to sale herself then hand a pimp her money way do you care? Using your logic when you buy a burger at McDonalds it’s not going into the pocket of the cashier who makes “slave wages” but into the pockets of someone that is more than likely already well off. A pimp right? It’s ok as long as the pimp is the boss right? I mean most pimps do take care of their girls.


Hey Daddy, if a woman asks you to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) on her and you do it, is that wrong? Because I've done that. It doesn't turn me on but I aim to please (so to speak). I had a woman ask me to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) up her ass once, in fact.

I bet a month’s pay you would put on pig’s mask and fuck her with a plunger if she asked you to also :confused: Has anyone on ISG every met these guys in person? I mean I just wrote about this on the Pattaya thread the most perverse guys on ISG seem to hide…why?

[Opebo]

Wow this is stupid. Using this logic I should rob O (insert any name for O you like) when I see him since I think robbing him is right. I mean it’s not wrong because I think so but O may not like it but I like it so no harm. No reason for me to accept you guys preference that robbing is wrong.

The catch is - can you get away with it, DW? I was talking philosophy, not politics (please excuse me). We mostly obey because it is easier to obey, due to punishments and so forth.

[Dickhead]

I'm okay with the pig's mask but not the plunger. I haven't got any desire to hurt anyone. I've met literally hundreds of mongers from these boards, mostly in the country where I live but in other places as well. Some of the more well-known ones I've met (besides from where I live) are Freeler, One Tree Hill, David33, Waterboy, and once I even met Nibu Raphael. Lots of mongers come and stay at our house. Believe me, plenty of people on the board know me personally. I like to stir up shit on the board but I'm nowhere near the most perverse monger on the board. In fact I'm really not very perverse at all. Sucky fucky suits me just fine. But, I'll try most things once or twice. I mean, if a woman asks you to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) up her ass, why not do it? This was before AIDS of course; I wouldn't have anal sex without a condom nowadays and I'm not that into it anyway.

DW, I think you monger in different places than I do so you have a different take on it. Ain't nobody where I live being forced into anything.

[Wanking]

This could be an option for those who dont feel comfortable having sex with prostitutes.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3710987618964917848

[Warbucks]

This could be an option for those who dont feel comfortable having sex with prostitutes.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3710987618964917848

Wan Queen I hope you are being sarcastic.

[Bango Cheito]

I personally think that human beings are predatory creatures, we have been for a long time, that is our inheritance and our place in the natural order of things. We are supposed to fiercely compete with not only our environment but each other in order that evolution may be served. So in light of that, things like prostitution fall right into the way nature intended it. Quid pro quo, and competition for the best resources on both sides of the equation. Some get left behind, those that go on are stronger and better than ever before. That is what we observe in all of nature wherever we may look, why would anybody think we are any different?

[Gentleman Travel]

Yes I agree to some extent and purposes all jobs are exploitive but comparing whoring to other “normal” jobs is ludicrous. Man put yourself in these girls’ shoes. That is your body and to give to someone else to use and abuse for few bucks and hour not in a labor-type manner. I mean all you have to do is read through a couple of these threads you will find some twisted individuals around here pissing on girls (R. Kelly wanna Be’s) and shit… then they say shit like well she asked me to do it….if she asked you to drink her blood or punch her face because it gets her off are you going to do that too?

One guy said well prostitution is where you should push sex to the extreme but here is the catch these prostitutes are still women, human beings. So you got some guys who tell the girls you must take it up ass, you must fuck me all night because I am paying you. Dehumanization of the worst kind...

It’s a dirty game.

...Guys trying to shine shit and call it gold I am not buying it.
The problem with the prostitution guilt-trippers in this conversation is treating all kinds of prostitutes as if they were the same - there for the same reasons, performing in the same circumstances, suffering the same costs and reaping the same benefits.

Whereas in truth there are many different kinds of prostitutes.

Certainly there is a tier of genuine sex slaves. Personally I am astounded that Western governments don't care more about this happening in their own countries - if we were still forcing blacks to pick cotton in the fields or chaining galley slaves there would be a genuine outcry. Yet all Western countries all guilty of receiving or harbouring a large number of women who are either forced or strongly coerced into sex against their will and with little or no benefit to themselves.

There is another tier of coerced sex workers that may fall short of slavery, but not by much. Girls forced into it to support their families, or girls who travel overseas to work as "hostesses" or "models" and being forced to work to pay off their travel or visa costs.

Then there is the level of economic necessity - prositution is by far the most lucrative employment available to girls in some circumstances. They have some choice in the matter, in that they could quit tomorrow, but maybe starve. Not much of a choice.

So tochka girls (in Russia) usually fall into one of these categories and I guess many bar girls throughout Asia (not my field). And I suppose junkies fall into the third category. So these conditions of prostitution are not exclusive to third world countries, they exist everywhere, to different degrees.

Somewhere along the food-chain we move from economic necessity to choice. Prostitution is easy money for many women. Beats working. This is a whole different dimension. Yes it is exploitation of a sort, but there is a strong element of free will and self-interest. Two additional factors come into play - cultural norms and laziness. Personally, if a girl would prefer to rent out her body rather than work in a grocery store, then who am I to tell her it is wrong? I don't think I am exploiting anything other than her laziness. Also, in many countries, some forms of prostitution are not shunned the same way they are in the West. So the "cost" to these women is not as high as it is in our culture - and conversly the degree of "exploitation" is less.

Then we get to tiers of women making positive choices to be prostitutes.
Girls who simply find it to be a profession that provides them with the lifestyle they desire. Many enjoy being the objects of lust of men. It is the same with strippers - some do it because it is a practical (if degrading) solution to their problems, and others do it because they earn good money flashing their "hot bods" and drive guys wild with desire - what's not to like? In this category come a lot of the semi-pro and amateur girls - they have real jobs or are in school, but hey, it would be cool to have a cellphone or new shoes or a sunny vacation, and they know how to get what they want! So I don't know why any guy would feel any guilt about fucking the brains out of any of these girls. I mean, who is exploiting whom here?

I fucked my Ukrainian interpreter for new shoes. Except we didn't have time for shoe shopping, so I just gave her the money. She probably didn't even think of herself as a hooker - just a part-time girlfriend getting her due. Of course, that is BS, but she can rationalize it any way she wants. And I sure did not feel guilty - she likes shopping and I liked fucking her. A mutually rewarding relationship.

Each country has a different mix of these categories of prostitutes. Maybe in Asia and Africa (I am guessing, not my field) it is primary the first few groups - from coersion to economic necessity. This is one set of moral circumstances. But I would somewhat support the argument that some have made - "If not me, it would be someone else - so why worry?" and add to it - better for them to be sexually servicing clean and careful Westerners for a few bucks than to be servicing bare-back disease-ridden Kenyan truck drivers for pennies.

In Eastern Europe there is quite a mix of motivations with lots taking the economically easy road and many doing it as a lifestyle choice - but also doing so in a culture where it is not a big deal. Sex is normal, sex with lots of guys is normal, performing sexual acts simply to please guys is normal. So no big deal to wake up with some guy you just met and hey, if he is a clean-cut, semi-sober Westerner who bought you dinner and did not beat you, maybe it was a better-than-average Saturday night date.

In the West, while there are clusters throughout the continuum, most women are in it by choice - often to achieve a certain lifestyle (or to capitalize on their physical assets as compensation for laziness or lack of education). However, in the West there is a higher moral cost to be paid, so there must be a degree of moral degradation to be endured in many cases, which is not true everywhere in the world.

My point is that for most of us, there are places on this continuum where we can get what we want without feeling any guilt about exploiting (or dehumanizing) girls, or where we can feel that a fair trade has taken place. And there are some places at the low end of this continuum that most of us would feel some guilt, even if we do indulge from time to time. And then there are some guys here that will never feel any guilt, or are looking to exploit and humiliate working girls.

I won't say "to each his own" because I think there are moral choices (and immoral ones) to be made. But I will say that we are not all equally guilty (or necessarily "guilty" at all) and that the degree of "guilt" is somewhat subjective and dependent on cultural norms.

... and besides, I like cute chicks rubbing big hooters in my face and then cumming all over them!
But in a mutually consensual economic relationship...

[Bango Cheito]

Yeah but it's not even that cut and dried.

The vast majority of women working in sex work are just like people in any other profession, they are not exactly fulfilling their last whim and desire in the workplace.

Most of them are women who like the extra money working in sex gets them, which allows them to do things like send their kids to good schools instead of shit public schools, allows them to buy property, maybe a nice little car, things like that.

I don't see the difference between that sort of thing and the difference between somebody who goes to university and gets a Masters degree and then a decent job and somebody who goes to work straight out of high school and winds up making shit money their whole lives. And I applaud the women who enter into what is really not an easy industry (easy money MY ASS), in order to achieve their goals and provide for their children.

[Rubber Nursey]

I don't even know where to start, so I'm gonna resort to dot points:

* Every employed person, in the entire world, is working out of 'economic necessity'. Sex workers are no more 'forced' to work than anyone else is. FORCED is being kidnapped, beaten, locked in a brothel and made to service men against your will. Going into sex work for any other reason - whether it's to save your children from starvation or to buy a brand new BMW - is a CHOICE. Yes, for some it's a choice they did not want to make and, perhaps, one they regret making. Yes, some sex workers hate their job and wish that they could leave it... but so do millions of other people in millions of other occupations.

Right now, there are tens of thousands of lawyers, teachers, barstaff, soldiers, etc, crying themselves to sleep because they're desperately unhappy in their work, but can't leave because they have to feed their families. Do we pity the doctor who hates his work, but is 'trapped' by his $500,000 mortgage? Do we feel guilty about 'forcing' the broke waitress to serve us our food, or 'abusing' the hotel cleaner who scrubs our toilets? Why is job satisfaction only critical when the work involves naked genitals???

* Foreign sex workers are not 'cheap pussy'. In their own country, in their own currency, theirs is one of the highest-paying jobs available. You, as a foreign buyer with foreign currency, may FEEL like you're only paying her $10 for sex, but that doesn't make her a $10 hooker. In her own money, you probably just paid her more than 'respectable' workers earn in a week.

* Sex workers do not 'sell their bodies' and you do not become her 'boss' for the duration of the transaction, any more than you become the 'boss' of your hairdresser. They will both do what you ask to a certain degree, but there are professional boundaries that must be respected. Paying a hairdresser for a haircut does not entitle you to play with her boobs...just as paying a hooker for a blowjob does not entitle you to ram it up her arse. Sex workers offer a service and clients purchase that service. They are not 'bought' and 'used'.

* Sex work is NOT inherently degrading/abusive/dehumanising/etc. As I've said many times in this forum, the most degrading and dehumanising thing about being a wh*re is listening to academics, feminazis, religious zealots and other armchair experts talk about us like we're something other than living, breathing human beings with hearts and minds of our own. The mechanics of paid sex are no different to regular sex. Contrary to popular belief, having a penis inside you is not psychologically damaging! It's the shame and revulsion and stigma heaped on sex workers that does the damage. It's your words, not your dicks, that perpetuate the 'abuse'.

Truth is, many clients don't WANT to believe that wh*res have control over their own destinies, because that changes the power dynamic of the transaction. As a tragic victim of poverty or coercion, you get to do it TO her and her fee is just a token gesture of thanks and/or pity. As a professional sex worker, she is making you pay for something that many men believe they should have the 'right' to take for free.

The idea that you're dehumanising or degrading sex workers is a reflection of your own beliefs about women and sex. You're just projecting your guilt and self-loathing onto us. If you went into every P4P session honestly believing that the woman you're paying is smart, strong, skilled and simply providing a service like any other, I think you'd feel very differently about your own role in the transaction.

[Rubber Nursey]

"Because you spend your time with true blue probably mentally disturbed sluts, there are lot of WGs out there who only do this line of work to survive".

Sorry to single out this quote in particular, Daddy W (there were a LOT to choose from!) but this is exactly what I was talking about: under no circumstances must a sex worker be considered to be in control. She's either a tragic victim of circumstances, or too f*cked up to know what she's doing.

[Rubber Nursey]

However, in many types of prostitution the hooker cannot chose with whom she wants to have sex and must "take all comers," so to speak. Or, it can be the case that they can refuse to a limited degree but will get canned if they do this very often. This is the case where I live, under certain structures.
This is the case in ANY employment. If you consistently refuse to perform what's in your job description, you will be fired. A sex worker doesn't get to be fussy about who she has sex with, any more than a checkout chick gets to pick and choose whose groceries she will and won't scan. If you're only willing to have sex with blonde, blue-eyed 25 year olds, perhaps sex work isn't for you. :)

[Giotto]

...
If you're only willing to have sex with blonde, blue-eyed 25 year olds, perhaps sex work isn't for you. :)Rubber Nursey,

I am impressed. Great reports!

Keep control :)!


Giotto

[Warbucks]

"Because you spend your time with true blue probably mentally disturbed sluts, there are lot of WGs out there who only do this line of work to survive".

Sorry to single out this quote in particular, Daddy W (there were a LOT to choose from!) but this is exactly what I was talking about: under no circumstances must a sex worker be considered to be in control. She's either a tragic victim of circumstances, or too f*cked up to know what she's doing.

RN when wrote this I was referring to the working girls who get off on those things that most people would consider strange like biting, pissing, slapping, hair pulling etc. Once again you made some great points and I thank you for your time and energy.

[Gentleman Travel]

* Sex work is NOT inherently degrading/abusive/dehumanising/etc. As I've said many times in this forum, the most degrading and dehumanising thing about being a wh*re is listening to academics, feminazis, religious zealots and other armchair experts talk about us like we're something other than living, breathing human beings with hearts and minds of our own. The mechanics of paid sex are no different to regular sex. Contrary to popular belief, having a penis inside you is not psychologically damaging! It's the shame and revulsion and stigma heaped on sex workers that does the damage. It's your words, not your dicks, that perpetuate the 'abuse'.

The idea that you're dehumanising or degrading sex workers is a reflection of your own beliefs about women and sex. You're just projecting your guilt and self-loathing onto us.
Well said! Yes it is the schizophrenic and hypocritical culture that is the problem, rather than any inherent danger or risk or unpleasantness that degrades.

[Redfield10]

Hi,

I am going to the Phils in two weeks for 10 days and planned mongering. However I met this woman locally in San Fran area I really like. Just known her two weeks but seen her 5 times and we really hit it off and lIke each other. Of course she would wonder where I'd disappeared to in two weeks so said I was travelling to the Phils. She told me not to lie and since we'd had sex several times already she had a right to know if I had sex with a girl while I was there.

I can see her point but she said if I did she'd end our relationship. And she expected me to tell the truth.

I'm torn. I'm still going, but should I just see women and lie and hope I'm a goodliar? (I'm not). Or should I just up and be a good boy. If I cancel, she will probably know for sure I was going for the girls.

Any advice?

[Fuzz Bucket]

Red,

Math is pretty simple here in my mind. If your goal is a long-lasting relationship with one person, and you think she might be the ONE, you cancel. How would you like it if she said she was going to Chippendale Island (fictitious of course) for two weeks...........and we all know what happens on Chippendale Island? Now you might say......"fine by me." But she doesn't sound like the "open relationship" type based on what you've said.

Conversely, if you're still into the hobby and don't want to give it up, it's time to "cut bait" with her.

Remember, this is the morality page. And if you really do like her like you've stated, then it's the right thing to do for HER!

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to here, but........ Just one man's opinion.

Dr. Phil (who I think is a d-bag by the way!)

P.S. Cancel for work reasons if this is the direction you take. And good luck!

[Redfield10]

Thanks for the opinion. I've only known her for two weeks. And have another week to decide.

You make excellent points, though.

I hadn't run into this before because I hadn't met someone I thought there was a chance for a Long term relationship with but I can't ignore the feelings so far.


Red,

Math is pretty simple here in my mind. If your goal is a long-lasting relationship with one person, and you think she might be the ONE, you cancel. How would you like it if she said she was going to Chippendale Island (fictitious of course) for two weeks...........and we all know what happens on Chippendale Island? Now you might say......"fine by me." But she doesn't sound like the "open relationship" type based on what you've said.

Conversely, if you're still into the hobby and don't want to give it up, it's time to "cut bait" with her.

Remember, this is the morality page. And if you really do like her like you've stated, then it's the right thing to do for HER!

Sorry if this is not what you wanted to here, but........ Just one man's opinion.

Dr. Phil (who I think is a d-bag by the way!)

P.S. Cancel for work reasons if this is the direction you take. And good luck!

[Mmlouie]

I'm torn. I'm still going, but should I just see women and lie and hope I'm a goodliar? (I'm not). Or should I just up and be a good boy. If I cancel, she will probably know for sure I was going for the girls.

Any advice?I think that you already have your answer to your own question within yourself. are just trying get other to justify the answer? stop taking the easy way out, you cannot have the cake and eat it too.

There are always consequences to everything that we do in life, as long as you understand the score and can live with the consequences. Just one person humble opinion.

Best of luck to you but I know what I would do if I was in your shoe.

[George90]

Hi,

I am going to the Phils in two weeks for 10 days and planned mongering. However I met this woman locally in San Fran area I really like. Just known her two weeks but seen her 5 times and we really hit it off and lIke each other. Of course she would wonder where I'd disappeared to in two weeks so said I was travelling to the Phils. She told me not to lie and since we'd had sex several times already she had a right to know if I had sex with a girl while I was there.

I can see her point but she said if I did she'd end our relationship. And she expected me to tell the truth.

I'm torn. I'm still going, but should I just see women and lie and hope I'm a goodliar? (I'm not). Or should I just up and be a good boy. If I cancel, she will probably know for sure I was going for the girls.

Any advice?

Yes, I have some advice. (Since you asked.)

You have been together for only 2 weeks and already she is giving you ultimati and ordering you about on what you can and cannot do on your free time and with your money. And what did she say the basis of this control over you was? You had sex with her therefore she OWNS you??!!??!!??

That woman has given you a crystal clear view of what married life will be like with her.

My advice is to tell her that you plan on (safe) mongering to your heart's content in PI. You are not married nor engaged, you do not have any long-term committments to each other, and therefore you have no such obligations to her. If she likes you for your values and company then she should so state and offer a comittment on mutual terms. If she is not yet prepared to offer a committment on mutual terms, then you do whatever you like until that time. If she walks then she walks. Frankly, you will be better off for it.

[Redfield10]

Really? And what would that be?

QUOTE=Mmlouie]I think that you already have your answer to your own question within yourself. are just trying get other to justify the answer? stop taking the easy way out, you cannot have the cake and eat it too.

There are always consequences to everything that we do in life, as long as you understand the score and can live with the consequences. Just one person humble opinion.

Best of luck to you but I know what I would do if I was in your shoe.[/QUOTE]

[Mmlouie]

Really? And what would that be?This is not about me, but yourself. You already know what to do deep down, none of our responses would be any help to you cause you already know.

Listen to your heart, what does it say? Follow your own gut feeling.

[Chocha Monger]

Red,

Do you really believe that this woman has a right to know about your hobbies simply because you had sex with her several times in two weeks? I'd be willing to bet that you are not the only one taking liberties with her. Come on man grow some stones! It has been only two weeks, 14 days, and she is already laying down the law on access to her pussy. You should be outraged that she even had that conversation with you. Go on your trip and have as much fresh pussy as you can handle. It'll help you grow some big strong stones. If that woman really likes you she'll still give you some ass when you get back. I'm warning you, if you let her start ruling you with her pussy it's not going to stop there. Based on what you wrote I'd say that your relationship wouldn't last in any case. Claim your freedom and go. You're not married. This woman is almost a one night stand Red. Think about it then pack your bags.

Hi,

I am going to the Phils in two weeks for 10 days and planned mongering. However I met this woman locally in San Fran area I really like. Just known her two weeks but seen her 5 times and we really hit it off and lIke each other. Of course she would wonder where I'd disappeared to in two weeks so said I was travelling to the Phils. She told me not to lie and since we'd had sex several times already she had a right to know if I had sex with a girl while I was there.

I can see her point but she said if I did she'd end our relationship. And she expected me to tell the truth.

I'm torn. I'm still going, but should I just see women and lie and hope I'm a goodliar? (I'm not). Or should I just up and be a good boy. If I cancel, she will probably know for sure I was going for the girls.

Any advice?

[Rubber Nursey]

Redfield,

If you think there's a chance that she may be 'The One', DO NOT start out by lying to her. Don't stuff it up before it begins. If you believe this relationship has possibilities for a future, cancel your trip and see where it leads (you can always go another time, if things don't work out).

If you're unsure about the relationship and/or don't want to feel committed to someone after only two weeks....I challenge you to tell her the TRUTH and give her the same opportunity that you are asking for. You have no right to ask her to 'wait' for you, while you run off to have sex with countless other women. Tell her that you intend to see other people in the Phils and that she should feel free to sleep with other men while you're away. If you CAN'T give her those same freedoms, then you, too, are expecting fidelity after only two weeks.

[AColonizer]

In my own experiences, with "regular" girls and long-time prostitutes, I am sure about women's behaviour, they stop cheating gentlemen's feeling only when, one day, they hear the alert "game over" and, at that time, they are worn up in every part of their mind and body Unfortunately, there are no women like our mothers or our grandmothers anymore.

[Dickhead]

This is the "Morality of Prostitution" thread. The "How to Act Like a Complete Pussy" thread is somewhere else.

[Artisttyp]

Really? And what would that be?

QUOTE=Mmlouie]I think that you already have your answer to your own question within yourself. are just trying get other to justify the answer? stop taking the easy way out, you cannot have the cake and eat it too.

There are always consequences to everything that we do in life, as long as you understand the score and can live with the consequences. Just one person humble opinion.

Best of luck to you but I know what I would do if I was in your shoe.[/QUOTE]


These other guys are giving you good advice. She should be banging as many men as you *hopefully will be women. If you two connect when you get back then you know it's for real. IMHO you are in the driver's seat. Steer the car in your direction but look out for the bumps in the road !

[Piper1]

RN - in an ideal world, your advice is good. In the real world, you know it's totally unrealistic.

Redfield - my advice: Do not tell your girl the truth. If you do, your new 2 week relationship will be over in 2 minutes. Cancel the Philippines trip (due to "The Economic Crisis" of course), and enjoy your new relationship and the compulsory sex while it lasts. If it doesn't last, re-book your Phils trip ASAP.

My invoice is in the mail.