The Morality of Prostitution [Archive] - Page 15

Gentleman Travel

02-09-09, 02:33

Well, quite a diversity of advice. Here is my take.
I agree mostly with Piper, but think you do have some other options...

Option 1: A real GFE
You have the possibility of real freebie GFE - go for it!
Put off the Phillipino experience for another day.
But so long as you have the Phillipino option in your back pocket (or front zippered one, as the case may be) you can stay in control of the relationship. If you are not getting what you want from the girl, then you know where and how to get it! That is the beauty of mongering, other than the splendid sexual gratification - it is knowing that another world and path in life exists for you - you are not trapped in sex prision USA (or wherever).
Use this to your advantage. Demand (sweetly and romantically) great sex including luxurious blowjobs - or whatever turns your crank. Most guys are afraid to be sexually aggressive, and everyone suffers for it - because many women (not all) respond to the demanding, confident, manly approach.
Make hay while the sun shines out of her pussy.

Option 2: Have your dessert and eat her too
"Darling, I wish I had met you before I made non-refundable travel plans. It will be torture to be away from you(r sweet pussy) for so long! But it has been my lifelong passion - before I met you - to study Early Buddist Temple Architecture (or the spiny green tree frog, or whatever other interests you can fake) and this is my chance to fulfill that dream. Next time we will go to Paris (or Vegas or Tuscany) together for a truly romantic experience."
Millions of tourists go to south east Asia for reasons other than sex tourism. Chances are she does not even have a clue about that. I know my wife has no clue about this stuff! Tell her you are going to be exploring rain forests or coral reefs, or whatever the hell the Phillipines has other than cheap pussy.

Make sure she gives you a good send-off and welcome-back sex party.
It is the least she should do to satisfy and keep her man faithful!
If she doesn't then she is too stupid and hopeless to worry about.

If you are not a good liar, and you think you are not, then you need to simplify and internalize your story. Simplify by not telling any unnecessary lies - focus on telling her true things that she can hear - how long your flight was, your hotel was a dump, but the beaches were great, the food wierd, whatever. Send her a postcard every day (while recharging your batteries) and bring her an armload of cheap souvenirs and give her a half-hour travelogue and dozens of clean photos on your return and she will be bored stiff of your travels without even probing into the prospect of bikini-clad girls on the beaches or in sleazy bars.

The internalizing part is to actually do some of these things - visit temples or markets or Imelda Marcos' shoe collection or whatever tourist attractions blight your particular locale and tell her all about them, in excruciatingly dull detail. The best liars are bores.

Option 3: Honesty is the worst policy
Whoever told you to lay it all on the line and tell her to take it or leave it lives in a different world than the one I do. And maybe that is your world - you are a lot younger than I am and probably in a different sphere of life.

Maybe you can do that while casually dating at college, but most women would draw the line at sharing your affections and sexual favours with pox-ridden wh*res in brothels in Manilla.

No woman I know would stand for that approach - which is fine if you are trying to drive away "nice girls". But if you like the idea of a steady, lovely girlfriend then you will have to be a liar or at least a hypocrite. Get used to it. Hypocrisy and white lies are vastly underrated qualities in life.

However, backstopping any of these options is the knowledge that, as a monger, YOU DO NOT DEPEND ON HER FOR SEX. You can get it in the Phillipines or from the phone book any time you want! That gives you the confidence to demand what you need and cut bait if you are not getting it. That is the key to happiness (or at least sexual satisfaction) for not only will you be prepared to gamble (and often win) but your confidence and assertiveness will dramatically increase your chances of success.

So decide your best strategy and pursue it with confidence and determination.

Good luck!

GT

Redfield10

02-09-09, 02:34

Thanks for the advice folks. I still have about 8 days to make up my mind and it isn't made up yet. I should correct myself. I've now known her for 23 days. 5 dates. Slept together now three times. Very nice. We do hit if off, but, of course, the first few weeks and months are always easiest. No glaring "dealbreakers" obvious. So that's the deal.

RN, she's not the kind of woman who is going to go out and screw as many guys as she can if she has the freedom.

If I cancel the trip, I'm out about $1300. If I tell her I'm going to go to the Phils and will undoubtedly have sex with women, she'll drop me, I'm sure.

It's true, I shouldn't start out the relationship with a lie. (telling her I didn't see anyone in the PI, if indeed I do). But if I return and we hit it off and continue our relationship, I won't be mongering anytime soon.

I understand that she should have the same right as me. But I'm not sure it's worth cancelling my trip over someone I like a lot. And she maybe even be "the one". But it's certainly too early to tell.

And as far as getting some "balls". I have 'them. I am probably just a little more considerate than some of you who are criticizing me for not just saying "who cares about what she thinks? " and go anyway. But I do understand and respect how you feel about what I should do. It's perfectly understandable.

Red

Redfield,

If you think there's a chance that she may be 'The One', DO NOT start out by lying to her. Don't stuff it up before it begins. If you believe this relationship has possibilities for a future, cancel your trip and see where it leads (you can always go another time, if things don't work out).

If you're unsure about the relationship and/or don't want to feel committed to someone after only two weeks....I challenge you to tell her the TRUTH and give her the same opportunity that you are asking for. You have no right to ask her to 'wait' for you, while you run off to have sex with countless other women. Tell her that you intend to see other people in the Phils and that she should feel free to sleep with other men while you're away. If you CAN'T give her those same freedoms, then you, too, are expecting fidelity after only two weeks.

Mmlouie

02-09-09, 03:37

Gentleman Travel

02-09-09, 04:57

It's true, I shouldn't start out the relationship with a lie. (telling her I didn't see anyone in the PI. If indeed I do).
But if I return and we hit it off and continue our relationship, I won't be mongering anytime soon.
Don't say "if I do see anyone in PI" - fuck your brains out while you are there!
It may be your last chance to party like that for a while, if this relationship works out. I made that mistake when I went on a pre-planned sailing trip in Hawaii shortly after meeting my wife. This was well before my mongering days, but even so I had a chance with a couple of nice looking women, but I let the opportunities slip by as I sat there writing "I miss you" postcards to my new girlfriend back home. I have regretted it for 20 years!

Redfield10

02-09-09, 17:24

It's ok, Louie. I wanted everyone's opinions! And I appreciate each and every one.

Happy hunting, guys.

Is enough, gentlemen. Poor guys is confused enough already, lets give him a break. Red, you will do what is right for you and for you only. No one here should tell you what you should do and thats that!

When you look back in life, things always happen for a reason.

Bango Cheito

02-10-09, 07:45

I will refrain from commenting on that particular situation as I don't think I have enough information....

Somebody please tell me something though, why is it we think there is something WRONG with people if they are into kinky sex, like slapping each other around, pissing, whatever.... I personally think people are fucked up if they are NOT into these things, I think there must be something repressing them preventing them from enjoying sex FULLY... but hey, to each his own. I just think that that's a really fucked up assumption to make, that "there must be something wrong with you" if you like rough or kinky sex. And not just fucked up, but totally unfounded.

I can also say from very direct personal experience, that RN is RIGHT ON THE MONEY with her observation. There are TONS of girls here in Colombia who have ZERO compunction moral or otherwise about going to other countries and working in sex, but they would NEVER want to do it anywhere they might get recognized, because of what people might say. I personally long for the day when nobody gives a flying fuck about that anymore. These girls need to realize they aren't less of a person just because of what a bunch of small-minded people think!

And just to let you know, a very close friend who just got back told me she used to think older guys were gross, but after working in sex she has a whole new respect for the older guys who are REALLY good in bed. So there :P

Rubber Nursey

02-10-09, 09:48

RN - in an ideal world, your advice is good. In the real world, you know it's totally unrealistic.

Redfield - my advice: Do not tell your girl the truth. If you do, your new 2 week relationship will be over in 2 minutes. Cancel the Philippines trip (due to "The Economic Crisis" of course), and enjoy your new relationship and the compulsory sex while it lasts. If it doesn't last, re-book your Phils trip ASAP.
I only told him to tell her the truth if he DIDN'T want to continue the relationship...and even then, I wasn't entirely serious. I was really only challenging him to consider whether or not he could give her the same freedoms that he was expecting. A lot of guys have criticised this woman for demanding fidelity after only two weeks, but at least she's being upfront and honest about what she wants. What many here have suggested - leading her to believe she's in a secure relationship, so that she 'waits' for him while he's off banging others - is just a sneaky, gutless way of demanding exactly the same thing.

Personally, if I was Redfield's girl, I would rather know exactly where I stand. Actually, I've been in exactly that position before and I respect my man for being up front with me about it. In infidelity, it's not the sex that hurts the most - it's the dishonesty and disrespect. You can get over the physical aspects of being cheated on, but it's very hard to regain lost trust.

Redfield10

02-10-09, 21:36

Rn,

I actually agree with you. I'm just not sure I'm going to do it. I have about 6 days to decide and will be seeing her at least twice before then. Also, I haven't told her she can't see anyone. She just told me she doesn't want to. Of course, I'm rationalizing, but I do think that because I'm unsure about her and because I'd lose $1300 if I didn't go and because I've only known her for 25 days, that the moral dynamics are a bit more complicated than a regular truth or lie thing. But maybe not.

I appreciate your perspective and the sharing of it.

I only told him to tell her the truth if he DIDN'T want to continue the relationship...and even then, I wasn't entirely serious. I was really only challenging him to consider whether or not he could give her the same freedoms that he was expecting. A lot of guys have criticised this woman for demanding fidelity after only two weeks, but at least she's being upfront and honest about what she wants. What many here have suggested - leading her to believe she's in a secure relationship, so that she 'waits' for him while he's off banging others - is just a sneaky, gutless way of demanding exactly the same thing.

Personally, if I was Redfield's girl, I would rather know exactly where I stand. Actually, I've been in exactly that position before and I respect my man for being up front with me about it. In infidelity, it's not the sex that hurts the most - it's the dishonesty and disrespect. You can get over the physical aspects of being cheated on, but it's very hard to regain lost trust.

Dickhead

02-11-09, 15:40

Redfield10

02-11-09, 19:49

Then let's just say there's $1300 I cannot recover.

However, even you must understand that when the money you spend to purchase something is non- refundable, it's generally more satisfying to consume what you purchased than to not consume it.

You won't "lose $1300 if you don't go." You have already spent $1300 regardless of whether you go or not. The $1300 is a sunk cost that can never be recovered so it should be irrelevant to your decision of whether to go or not.

George90

02-11-09, 20:29

You won't "lose $1300 if you don't go." You have already spent $1300 regardless of whether you go or not. The $1300 is a sunk cost that can never be recovered so it should be irrelevant to your decision of whether to go or not.

I see someone has taken, and passed with an "A+", a course on decision analysis or managerial accounting, and thereby has injected logic and reason into this discussion!!!!

In stark contrast, we also see the confused, muddled, and rambling thought process of the decision maker in this situation.

If there was ever soap-opera material ...

Redfield10

02-11-09, 21:16

Georgie,

I've already decided I'm going. I don't entirely use a "linear" model to arrive at final decisions. I employ people who have those lower level, "linear" skills because they are good at lower level tasks.

When I make higher level decisions, I use a more wholistic approach (which I'd be happy to explain to you sometime if I thought you had the capacity to understand it).

Have a nice day.

I see someone has taken, and passed with an "A+", a course on decision analysis or managerial accounting, and thereby has injected logic and reason into this discussion!!!!

In stark contrast, we also see the confused, muddled, and rambling thought process of the decision maker in this situation.

If there was ever soap-opera material ...

Rubber Nursey

02-12-09, 01:01

And just to let you know, a very close friend who just got back told me she used to think older guys were gross, but after working in sex she has a whole new respect for the older guys who are REALLY good in bed. So there :P
There are only three choices when it comes to clients you're not physically attracted to - refuse to see them (not good for business), lay back and think of England (not good for repeat business), or find something about them that appeals to you. After working for only a short while, I could find something genuinely attractive about every single person that walked in the door. I think that's something more people should do in their everyday lives. By sticking to only one 'type', you're really limiting opportunities to broaden your sexual horizons. Anyone seen the movie 'Yes Man'? The granny blowjob scene is a case in point! LOL

Rubber Nursey

02-12-09, 02:40

I appreciate your perspective and the sharing of it.
My opinion is only my opinion. Nobody here can tell you what's right for YOU. If you go and then this new relationship ends up working out, you may find yourself ravaged by guilt. If you don't go, you may end up kicking yourself for not taking the opportunity while you had it. It's up to you to decide which is the lesser of two evils. But I will leave you with one observation and one piece of advice.

You would not have posted on this thread if there wasn't some aspect of this decision that bothers you. Either you really like this girl and you know in your heart that it's the wrong thing to do, or you really want to go on this trip and you're looking for validation/confirmation that it's ok to go ahead and do it. Only you know which of those is closest to the truth.

And if you do end up going, please use protection (especially if your new girl is under the impression that you're being faithful).

Jelly Donut

02-12-09, 02:42

Rn,

I actually agree with you. I'm just not sure I'm going to do it. I have about 6 days to decide and will be seeing her at least twice before then..
Red -

Be careful with RN - she's a coy minx - her wordsmithing a siren song.

Honesty is not always in your best interest. You have a biological imperative to screw as many women as possible. Remember human beings were f*cking long before they invented religion, morality or language.

But since you seem so enthusiastic about honesty - you should invite this girl along with you. If she turns you down, and odds are she will, at least you will have been honest about who you are and what you desire. If she accepts, you'll have the foundation for an honest relationship, the prospect of a lifelong partner who has real insight into, and acceptance of, your totality...and you have the freedom to chase exotic new tail.

I know sounds a bit strange, but I'm convinced this is the only way round your dilemma. Not going on the trip simply puts off dealing with the issues in play here. And this the only way you can keep yourself honest and get everything you desire.

For extra points. Ask her on Valentine's Day.

JD - manifesting himself as a little devil on your left shoulder

Rubber Nursey

02-12-09, 04:54

Be careful with RN - she's a coy minx - her wordsmithing a siren song.
Coy? Moi??? LOL Can't say I've ever been accused of that before. :)

Rubber Nursey

02-12-09, 05:04

Honesty is not always in your best interest.
PS. I said what I said in HER best interest! (Which, in the long term, could also be in his best interest ;))

Dickhead

02-13-09, 15:40

I see someone has taken, and passed with an "A+", a course on decision analysis or managerial accounting, and thereby has injected logic and reason into this discussion!!!!

In stark contrast, we also see the confused, muddled, and rambling thought process of the decision maker in this situation.

If there was ever soap-opera material ...

Actually I learned about sunk costs in introductory microeconomics. Thank you, Professor McKernan, even if you were a right-wing Republican swine. This concept enabled me to throw away a $750 ticket to México a few years back, when I realized I honestly wanted to stay in Ecuador.

Chocha Monger

02-14-09, 00:04

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29184929/

George90

02-15-09, 20:53

Georgie,

I've already decided I'm going. Have a nice day.

Well, if my lower level 'linear' skills are sound, then tomorrow is the BIG day.

Redfield has posted that he is going to PI. I am curious if he has told his ladyfriend of one month about his decision. And if so, what was her reaction?

Is he going to stay faithful to this woman while in the PI? Or is he going to fuck his brains out and lie to her about it when he returns?

Then again, a whole 4 days have past since he made the post I quoted and he could have changed his mind in that time and decided to stay in the US. Or the lady in question could have changed her mind and dumped RF, making this entire discussion moot.

Well, Redfield? Can we have the next installment please? Inquiring minds are impatiently waiting.

Redfield10

02-16-09, 07:36

Your lower level linear skills are sound. It should be noted that my woman friend never asked me not to go to the Phils, but rather to be good.

I am still going to the Phils. So, the question here really involves whether I am going to tell her that I may be seeing other women (or something similar) or whether I will tell her that I am not going to see other women.

I've already told her a couple of days ago that I wasn't going to see other women. However, last night she told me that she'd just as soon me tell her that I was going to see other women if that was indeed what I was planning on doing.

Stay tuned

Well, if my lower level 'linear' skills are sound, then tomorrow is the BIG day.

Redfield has posted that he is going to PI. I am curious if he has told his ladyfriend of one month about his decision. And if so, what was her reaction?

Is he going to stay faithful to this woman while in the PI? Or is he going to fuck his brains out and lie to her about it when he returns?

Then again, a whole 4 days have past since he made the post I quoted and he could have changed his mind in that time and decided to stay in the US. Or the lady in question could have changed her mind and dumped RF, making this entire discussion moot.

Well, Redfield? Can we have the next installment please? Inquiring minds are impatiently waiting.

Redfield10

02-17-09, 03:23

Ok, saw her tonight. We didn't talk about it much. I think she's cool with knowing that whatever happens, happens. I'm certainly not putting any demands on her either.

I mean, noone ever really k nows if their gf or bf is going to see someone else. They might think they know, etc. But they don't really.

I'm seeing her again on Wed. Before I leave on Thursday night and will give a final "report" then.

I apreciate your letting me share a bit here. I know some of you think I"m a "wuss". Whatever. It's just been kind of fun sharing and also getting people's opinions.

Red

Rubber Nursey

02-17-09, 03:38

However, last night she told me that she'd just as soon me tell her that I was going to see other women if that was indeed what I was planning on doing.
This is exactly what I was trying to say before. Women are not fragile little princesses, nor are we idiots. Even if the truth hurts, most of us would prefer to know exactly where we stand.

By the sounds of it, she's been trying to give you an opportunity to tell her the truth. You should take it. Of course she doesn't really WANT to hear you say that you might see other women - and if you do say it, there's every chance she'll be hurt and furious - but in the long run, it really is the best thing for both parties. You won't have to live with any guilt and she WILL respect your honesty, eventually. I know fidelity is important to most relationships, but I don't know too many people who prioritise it above honesty and trust.

You don't have to be brutal. Something like "I'm not planning on seeing other women, but I don't want to make any promises" might soften the blow a bit. (Like I said, we aren't stupid. She'll know full well what that really means). And if she's still around when you get back and asks you whether you slept with someone else ...SAY YES. Again, this will probably hurt her, but she will respect you for it in the long run.

The fact is, SHE KNOWS what you're planning to do in the Phils. And even if she was wrong and you had no intention of sleeping with other women, she would still believe that's what's going to happen. The only way you could successfully allay her fears at this point, is to cancel your trip. If you go, she will think the worst, regardless. She WILL assume that you've been unfaithful. So the question is...do you want her to think you're unfaithful but honest, or unfaithful AND a liar?

Dickhead

02-17-09, 14:52

I'll tell you what I always wonder about. How can guys go on these mongering trips and still have enough jam to pretend they missed their wives? I mean, the guys who stay here have 26 women in a week and 4 the last night and then fly home and have to act all lovey-dovey. I guess it's easier when you're younger but I just don't have that much jam, as Mick Jagger once said.

All my regulars know I have other women; in fact, some of my regulars know each other. So for example a woman I see once a week will generally ask if I've seen so-and-so and I always lie and say no. So then supposedly I have not had sex in a week. But when I (finally) cum it's three drops and they know I am lying. But that is all part of the fun of it. It makes me laugh how 90% of the women down here check the condom afterwards. I wonder if they are merely checking for volume or if there are other qualitative characteristics they are looking for. I had a woman yesterday tell me I needed to eat more fruit and then I would have more "leche."

Opebo

02-17-09, 17:27

This is exactly what I was trying to say before. Women are not fragile little princesses, nor are we idiots. Even if the truth hurts, most of us would prefer to know exactly where we stand.

I couldn't agree more. I always tell the truth, other than occasional omissions. The reason is - I don't care what she thinks. If you care what someone thinks about you you've already lost the battle. Another way to put this is that if she thinks ill of me for fucking prostitutes then I'd have to say she's an idiot and I have no interest in her.

Chocha Monger

02-18-09, 01:27

I hope that Redfield doesn’t drink RN’s Kool Aid no matter how well intentioned the offer of that refreshing beverage may be. While women may not be fragile little princesses or idiots they are vindictive devils. William Congreve’s opinion that hell has no fury as a woman scorned did not gain widespread popularity without good reason. Only a fool would tell a woman that he is off on a journey to indulge in the pleasures of exotic pussies rather than stay at home and enjoy her own. The female ego cannot, and would not, accept that. I know someone is probably going get on here and talk about some hedonistic female that happens to be perfectly fine with that sort of thing but we are talking about mainstream American women here.

Of course, they would like to know the truth but not for any noble purpose. An outright declaration on the part of the man that he is about to exercise his right to copulate with multiple foreign attractive young women is akin to Saddam Hussein’s mad provocation of America’s war machine. Saber rattling and cock rattling can both be invitations to disaster. Removal of all doubt concerning Redfield’s intention to randomly fornicate with other women will only give a sense of righteousness to this woman’s acts of vengeance. When I say vengeance I don’t limit it to potential acts of violence like casting a brick through the windshield of his automobile or slandering him as a sex tourist. I am taking into account other passive aggressive actions like constantly reminding him how he wronged her should the relationship continue after his return or maybe even cheating on him after the relationship becomes sexually exclusive. In her mind, his sexual meandering will make her a martyr, a nagging force to be reckoned with for as long as they stay together.

I know that I could tell this man to go with the slogans like, “Honesty is the best policy” but then the corporate and political institutions of this country would call me a liar along with all the American women who married millionaires for love. There are plenty of men out there who can tell you how their demure little sweethearts promised not to be angry if only they were told the truth only to find themselves confronted by an enraged banshee upon a full confession. Women can’t handle the truth. We live in a society where sex travel is seen as a perversion regardless of its legality in the country of destination. Anyone, who is willing to identify himself as a sex tourist to a potentially vindictive lover, may as well hand her a sword beseeching her to cleave him in two from the crown of the head to the sack of his bollocks.

Redfield10

02-19-09, 03:20

Ok, I'll go ahead and post this because I know it kind of livened up this thread and I don't mind reporting back.

Well, after quite a bit of thinking about what to do, I decided to go to the Phils and also to tell my new friend that I couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't see anyone else. As expected, she was angry and says she doesn't want to see me anymore.

I know there's a lot of you know that are thinking "what a dummy" or "I told you so" or "what did you expect? ". And that's fine. Let me explain my rationale and also how I'm feeling about it.

I really didn't want to pretend that I cared a lot about her, then go to the Phils and see women and then come back and carry on with her as if I'd been completely faithful. I was also a bit surprised that I really still wanted to go and know (I'm leaving in 27 hours) that unless something very unforeseen happened, that I would sleep with women in the Phils....

So, not wanting to postpone my trip and still havng the desire to see women in the Phils hinted to me that I must not be "all that 100% excited" about her. At least not yet. And I do see a few warning signals with her. Nothing major, but enough so that I didn't want to postpone the trip. Also, I'd only known her for 30 days. And I felt, for me, this was too short a time to base any longer term decisions. Even exclusive dating, etc. Given that, I still wanted to go, the only choices, really, were to 1) tell her (in some form) that I might see women or 2) just do it and not tell her. You see, she was being exclusive with me (as was I.... I didn't see anyone else. Hell, w ho has time in the USA? ). But I didn't think I'd feel good about myself by making her think I was being faithful to her and having her wait for my return when I still don't find myself head over heels for her.

Now, one more thing. She is sort of naive about the mongering scene, and I really "do" think she would have believed me. I really do... despite what most of you might think.

I just figured that I should be honest with her and give my rationale to her. The rationale being that I hadn't known her long enough, that I didn't have a specific gf, but that I couldn't guarantee my fidelity, etc. I also told her that she could, of course, do what she wanted to do in the 10 days I'd be gone,but that I still wanted to see her when I got back. I also told her that I still cared for her, etc. and would still like to see where it'd go with her once I returned.

She said she was disappointed in me and that I obviously didn't want the same things she wanted and she said didn't want to see me any more.

So, that's the story.

I'm satisfied with my decision. I can go guilt free. I told the truth. There may still be a chance to see her again at some point. Noone knows how life will unfold a few weeks from now. But I guess I just maybe wasn't "into" her enough to postpone the trip or to guarantee I'd be faithful. I can understand how no woman wants to hear that.

That's about it.

Now, it's onto the Phils. I feel a little melancholy. But not a whole lot. I think I'll be fine once I'm there. And I think I took the action that reflects where I am at the m ment. If I'd known here three months or 5 days, the decision would probably have been easier. But I was kind of stuck in "relationship" no-man's land. 30 days. Long enough, but not long enough.

Have a good one folks. If we happen to get back together or something else transpires between us, I'll give a report on this thread. Otherwise I hope to post some escapades on either the Manila or Cebu threads.

P.S. Please don't flame RN. She did a good job of saying how she felt and I think I would have done the same thing regardless of any input from her. (or from anyone else, really). We all have to do what we have to do.

EDITOR'S NOTE: I would suggest that the author or another Forum Member consider posting a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please Click Here (http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?) for more information.

Warbucks

02-24-09, 08:22

This is NO way intended to be a Flame, Or a An Argumentive Reply, Or a Judgement Of Peoples Choices.

Its Just MY VIEW !

Nothing More .. Nothing Less ...[/b][/size]

First Off let me say I am Divorced....

I was married to Pinay for 12 years , with her total 14 yrs.
When dating and married, she gave me EVERY THING I WANTED !
( Sex , Love , Companionship, Headache , And a Feeling I cant Describe )
Took Damn good care of me and the house.
Good with the finances, Fair cook, Great in Bed. !
I had No Reason to Stray....

Now im Single ( long story) By my choice.
We still see each other for Family Functions, Have dinner together 3 times a week.
Im Still Good friends with her Family and me and her are also still Good Friends.

Ok so now why did i Type all this Dribble ??

When i was married i could see no reason to stray or go looking for Other Pussy...

So i have a hard time Understanding why anyone that Loves his Wife would be in Angeles city for the purpose of finding a companion for sex.
( Unless She is Also with you for the Same Reason )
IMHO.. if your looking for other sex outside of the Marriage, then its time to call it Quits.!

How would You feel if you found out your wife was Intimate with a Gigalo ??
But Honey it was just for the sex .. i love you ...
I bet 94% would divorce her; The other 6% would want too join in.

Like I said in the Beginning.... Just My Thoughts....

Jim

Any thoughts...

Shamuc

02-24-09, 11:13

Gentleman Travel

02-24-09, 16:07

I just figured that I should be honest with her and give my rationale to her. The rationale being that I hadn't known her long enough, that I didn't have a specific gf, but that I couldn't guarantee my fidelity, etc. I also told her that she could, of course, do what she wanted to do in the 10 days I'd be gone,but that I still wanted to see her when I got back. I also told her that I still cared for her, etc. and would still like to see where it'd go with her once I returned.

She said she was disappointed in me and that I obviously didn't want the same things she wanted and she said didn't want to see me any more.

.... I can understand how no woman wants to hear that.
Well, you can't say we didn't warn you.
Still, its your life and if you feel better for having been honest with her, compared to having possibly months of funfilled and joyful GFE with her after your return, then maybe you did the right thing.

But I think you are young and made a young man's mistake.
Lilfe and love are not always black and white and navigating the gray bits is one of the tricks to a successful life.

Anyway, I hope you have enough fun in the Phillipines to sustain you through the romantic drought you will experience on your return.

Gentleman Travel

02-24-09, 16:35

IMHO.. if your looking for other sex outside of the Marriage, then its time to call it Quits.!

How would You feel if you found out your wife was Intimate with a Gigalo ??
But Honey it was just for the sex .. i love you ...
I bet 94% would divorce her; The other 6% would want too join in.

Any thoughts...
Well, I can only answer for myself, having been married for 18 years and mongered for the last few.
Marriage, at least a lasting marriage, is about many things, not just love and sex.
It is about building a family, financial security, social belonging, companionship, status, conformity to societal norms, etc.
And these factors play in dfferent mixes for different people, and in different mixes over the life of your marriage - at some points
love and sex may be the driving factors, but later maybe is is financial security and certainly at some stages raising kids is paramount.
And eventually comfort and complacency take over...

So to base your total marriage decision on your current sex life is like basing your employment decisions entirely on this week's
pay packet - with no consideration for stability, benefits, enjoyment of the work, colleagues, convenience, future, etc.
It's an important factor, but it is not the whole show.

So I think mongering is a useful outlet to having some of the things that are lacking in a marriage.
And it is mostly in American (including Canadian) culture that this is viewed as incompatible with marriage.
In many cultures, include some European ones, extra-marital affairs, if not exactly accepted,
are at least viewed with less trauma and drama. Same is true with prostitution generally
- it is illegal in most the US, but not many other places in the western world (or third world for that matter).

To get back to Gemi's question - how would you feel if your wife did this to you?
For me, I think I monger because my wife does not fulfill my basic needs at home,
not simply because I cannot keep it buttoned up, or because I want endless variety.
So I would be upset if she was stepping out at the same time she was limiting my access.
But if I stopped servicing her, and she sought joy elsewhere, then we would be in the same boat...
So to my mind, she is driving (or has the option of limiting) my mongering activities.

However, I expect there are many here who would monger regardless of home comforts,
and maybe I would too. I would be interested in hearing their points of view.

Jelly Donut

02-25-09, 01:25

Any thoughts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_of_Imperial_Consorts_in_China

"In Chinese History, polygamy was not prohibited until recent times. As a result, different dynasties have different systems of ranking for their palace's inner harems."

i have a hard time Understanding why anyone that Loves his Wife would be in Angeles city...

It sounds like you had a very good and unique relationship and I'm not making light of it. This may help toward understanding or shifting perspective.

"King Solomon loved, in addition to the daughter of Pharaoh, many foreign woman, Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian and Hittite women, from the nations concerning which the Lord had warned the Israelites. "You must not cohabit with them, nor they with you, for they will certainly turn your hearts to their gods". Solomon held fast to them in love. He had 700 official wives and 300 concubines...." Bible 1 Kings 11:1-3

Bango Cheito

02-25-09, 02:20

As far as I'm concerned I do and always will crave the variety. I just don't think monogamy is very natural. Maybe it is for some but not for me.

Warbucks

02-25-09, 08:41

However, I expect there are many here who would monger regardless of home comforts,
and maybe I would too. I would be interested in hearing their points of view.

My ole lady cooks, cleans, is attractive and is the perfect companion. I still monger and chase square women. I like "strange" pussy every once in a while. Not something I am proud of but a fact....

VilunyaChert

03-09-09, 21:19

Hi, RN, I wanted to reprint the newspaper article below, and am mainly using something from your post just as a hook.

* Sex work is NOT inherently degrading/abusive/dehumanising/etc. As I've said many times in this forum, the most degrading and dehumanising thing about being a wh*re is listening to academics, feminazis, religious zealots and other armchair experts talk about us like we're something other than living, breathing human beings with hearts and minds of our own.

Two women vie, in the article below, for the "feminazi" label. On the other hand, the "moderator of the pastor's association" sounds very reasonable--not a fire-breathing Calvinist wowzer at all. And my impression from some quick Googling is that the "uproar" is pretty much a minority thing. By and large the Genevans are acting damned civilized, and good on them, I say.

===begin===
March 9, 2009
Swiss Uproar: Prostitute Buried Near John Calvin
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 3:27 p.m. ET

GENEVA (AP) -- A well-known prostitute who campaigned for the rights and dignity of sex workers was given an honored place of rest on Monday, in the same cemetery where Protestantism's John Calvin is buried, and some women activists criticized the decision.

Griselidis Real, who died in 2005, was buried in the presence of 200 people at the Cemetery of the Kings, which is reserved for individuals that have profoundly marked Swiss or international history. Argentinian writer Jose Luis Borges and child psychologist Jean Piaget are among the luminaries interred there.

The body of Real, who was 76 when she died only 10 years after she is said to have given up prostitution, was exhumed from another cemetery in Geneva for the ceremony that some -- particularly women -- have called offensive.

''If every woman that had children to raise alone turned to prostitution, the city of Geneva would be a bordello,'' said Amelia Christinat, a feminist and former member of the Swiss parliament who opposed Real's reburial.

Jacqueline Berenstein-Wavre, the first woman to head Geneva's parliament, also objected.

''No woman should rejoice at this transfer, which is nothing but the elevation of a prostitute and of prostitution in general by its male protectors,'' she told the daily Tribune de Geneve, which noted the scarcity of women buried in the honored ground, less than a quarter of the 350 graves.

Prostitution is generally legal in Switzerland, with red light districts in some cities. But Real worked for years to improve working conditions.

She helped found Aspasie, an association which describes itself as promoting solidarity with sex workers. Aspasie says she compiled a massive collection of newspaper clippings, films and other documentation about prostitution over 30 years and that her four children donated the database to the association on her death.

Geneva's Protestant Church has been reserved in its criticism about the reburial, even though the former fighter for prostitutes' rights now rests near one of the central figures in the history of Christianity.

The city once known as the ''Protestant Rome'' is honoring Calvin's 500th birthday this year with publications, exhibitions and performances. The celebrations, however, have been somewhat muted, perhaps in deference to the 16th-century theologian's stern views on life and excess.

The cemetery is ''not a sacred place,'' Roland Benz, moderator of Geneva's association of pastors, was quoted by the Ecumenical News International as saying.

Real was born in 1929 in Lausanne. A divorced mother of four children, she began working as a prostitute in Germany in the 1960s and later moved to Geneva, becoming a leading campaigner for prostitutes' rights.

In her autobiographical books ''Black is a color'' and ''Dance card of a courtesan'' she denounced the hypocrisy of a society that condemns prostitutes while using their services.

Patrice Mugny, a local politician who championed the transfer, said the city was ''in no case apologizing for prostitution, but honoring an individual who distinguished herself by battling for human dignity.''

''This shows that human dignity is not a question of social status, that it is not limited by moral prescriptions,'' he said at the ceremony.

Ruth Morgan Thomas, a leading European campaigner for prostitutes, said the burial was an important recognition for sex workers ''who demand simply to be treated without discrimination and valued as an integral part of society.''

----------

Associated Press writer Bradley S. Klapper contributed to this report.

===end===

Be careful with those Klappers!

VC

Meat Loaf

03-24-09, 20:37

Hi fellas',

I'm Meat Loaf in Nicaragua and I've noticed taht a lot of posters on this thread are also posting on Meat Loaf in Nicaragua. So I'm just saying hello and invite you to join in on my thread with similar topics of communicae.

Keep it up!

Chocha Monger

05-14-09, 16:06

Attempts to moralize sexual behavior, including prostitution, are part of a larger agenda on the part of state and religious bodies to control sex and reproduction among the masses. Monogamy was created to protect the ruling social classes from the disruptive effects of bastards. Bastards created challenges to the concept of birthright.

“Amongst the ‘respectable’ sort – soldiers, sailors, wh*res and so forth would form striking exceptions – sexual intercourse was permissible within marriage and where expectations of marriage had been created and signaled amongst courting couples. Upon pregnancy, marriage would then normally and ideally take place, and community sanctions were leveled against those who took or gave sex beyond the customary norms. In a tight-knit face-to-face community, the loose woman would lose her reputation and perhaps her chance of finding a marriage partner; and the man who brought bastards into the world would be forced to marry, or flee. The value of sex was inscribed within rules and norms, and it was subject to an exchange economy in which the ultimate regulator was the balance between production and reproduction in an age which did not possess reliable means of contraception and which did not systematically attempt its practice. Like other commodities, sex held its value because demand outstripped supply.
Reputation for virtue was valuable, particularly in a woman, and public pressures were applied to limit sexual activity. But it was also the business of the public to ensure that sufficient children were born for economic prosperity, or at least survival. Too many mouths to feed was an obvious disaster; too few, and shortages of labour, ratepayers, and soldiers would follow. And while a wailing chorus of moralists in the later years of the seventeenth century and the early years of the eighteenth condemned England as a nation of fornicators and harlots, there was equal concern amongst political arithmeticians about the decay of population, a lack of hands to the plough or sailors and soldiers for Her Majesty’s forces. As we shall see, there was no contradiction in complaining in a single breath about sexual license and about population decline, for sinful sex was widely assumed to be procreatively unproductive. Overall, the sexual life of the pre-Victorian lower orders still awaits proper research. Suffice to say that the early advice literature shows that individual sexual expression was routinely subordinated to the procreative strategies presupposed by wider moral and national agendas.” (Roy Porter, Lesley A. Hall, The facts of life, pp. 15-16)

World Travel 69

05-16-09, 06:15

The only time I was stopped was in 1976 in Texas, my girl was stopped for carrying Hash in a toilet paper roll. Someone in Europe gave it to her and she forgot,because it was no big deal. I was let go, because they had nothing on me. I did not know what was in her suitcase.
So, Wake up if there is nothing in your bag, there is not any reason for anyone to stop you, unless YOU MOUTH OFF. So the F___ Shut UP!
About what you did away from Home. It is not any of their business, unless they need what we needed?

Be Polite! Smile and say Thank You. And Do Not say anything Else.
If you need more info let me know?

Back in 06 I was jammed up at LAX coming from Tokyo. The lowly TSA worker saw the numerous stamps of different countries in my passport and asked “Does your job pay well.” I responded “If it did not I wouldn’t be able to travel like this now would I?” I am a young black guy TSA worker was a middle age white guy. You could instantly see the mood change in the whole situation. He went all through my luggage found hard copy photos of a non-nude freelancer from Thailand. Found my porn stash I forgot I had which he tried to make out to be child porn (Natural Asshole). Asked all type of personal questions like about the pictures of the freelance because I told him my ex-wife was waiting on me.

Then I asked to speak to a lawyer because they started to ask how I got my government job. They said “Why you need a lawyer you are not under arrest.” Finally after I answered their questions they let me go. Only damage wasted time and my pride because of the porn stash being found. Put I still get some pleasure out of seeing those fools pathetic response to me being young black with some expendable cash….

Just like rapper Mos Def said: “They say won’t you to be successful but that’s not the case your skin is dark you living large they shine a light in your face.”

Warbucks

05-16-09, 09:27

Chocha Monger

05-21-09, 01:21

31 phone #s

26 made contact.

11 fucked, 2 threesomes.

5 nights at the Marriott's Executive Suite.

I shot 122 pictures (will post later) many porn-style; crawling on all 4 fours from dining room to living room to bed, foot on face (sickening/repugnant to me too) while doggie, fist in the mouth (it fit!) and other depraved acts.

Analized 2, both mothers. One MILF was oh, so charming it was very hard to follow my rule of fuck and kick-out quick. She was just oozing womanliness!

Game: invited them to the Executive Lounge where I encouraged them to feed their faces with the complimentary afternoon tea, hors d'oeuvres, dessert, cocktails and non-alcoholic beverages. If they hummed and hawed, I dropped them, some called back and agreed.

Next I headed to my suite with the mark, casually, not saying where we're going. A few were surprised when they reached the door. They paused and I just walked in. One chic had the door shut in her face, I made no attempt to hold it open, she knocked, I opened and before she could um/er, I said come-in. She did.

Next, I sat them down, sat next to them and went for a kiss, not looking in her eyes, not seeking validation. 3 freaked out, I kicked them out.

Next, my hands in their blouse. Most of them slid to the floor. I sat on the floor with them, too. Picked them up to the couch, started again. Paid no attention to their song and dance. Slightest resistance and kicked them out. Lost a few to that.

Next, spread their legs, carressed their pussies and licked them dry. Once I got them to point of spreading legs, it was a home-run, none backed out.

3 knew that we were going to fuck even before we met.

The threesumers also knew it was going to happen, but didn't think it was together; they figured 1 at a time, dumb chicks! Took some game to get them in the nude in the presence of the other. And the act sucked; I did all of the doing!

1 ladyboy offered to pimp his chic friends. I called, he sent, they were ugly and I just ignored them. They hung around in the lobby when there was no answer from my suite, looking lost and I sent them a message "get lost". They didn't get it, and my next message was "I'm out, will be back in 3 hours". That got rid of them.

Twice, I them kept waiting for 2 hours while I did my thing with the one I was doing.

Money: offered each one of them 1,500 pesos. Some took it and thanked me, some looked offended, some I guess they wanted more but said nothing, some refused (shy).

Sticky-icky: Told them that I would never see them again, bluntly. That didn't help at all. They were coming tomorrow, show me around, bring a friend to do it again, take me to the airport, wait for me outside.

Phone: I called, never answered, never texted. Lost a few to that deal, but it kept everything very simple.

Condoms: for all vaginal & anal penetration.

The last 3 days, I never stepped out of the Marriott.

Tomorrow, Kuala Lumpur. Indo hookers, most likely.
Is assembly line fucking and sadism wrong when it comes to dealing with Third World hookers and non-pros? On ISG, just as in offline society, there exists a segment of deviants and perverts. Some mongers need to commit sadistic acts, humiliate, shit and/or [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) on their sex partners. Others want to score as many fuck points as possible within limited vacation time. Some mongers express indignation at such behavior but is it really unethical, or is it all fair game between consenting adults?

Bango Cheito

05-21-09, 03:21

I´ve never really done anything overly kinky during p4p. The kinkiest I have ever done was ATM. I have done MUCH raunchier shit with non-pros.

Rubber Nursey

05-25-09, 08:08

Is assembly line fucking and sadism wrong when it comes to dealing with Third World hookers and non-pros?
Assembly line fucking? It is what it is, for third world AND first world hookers. We like to make it FEEL like you're the only man in our lives, but the reality is that you're just one in a loooooong line. Any client who thinks otherwise is a fool.

I admit, I have a 'dirty wh*re' fetish and I totally loved to be treated like a piece of you-know-what by a client. But only by agreement. I don't much enjoy being physically hurt, but there are plenty of hookers who do and if they're able to set boundaries and they're getting paid for it ...what could possibly be 'bad' about it?

Sex work allows you to act in a way that you may not usually act in your private life. Women, especially, are often not 'allowed' to experiment with this sort of stuff. I got to try soooo many things in P4P that I may not have had the opportunity to try at home. Hooking is awesome. :)

Rubber Nursey

05-25-09, 09:19

RN Please see someone.
LOL. Because I love the fact that I got to experiment with different sexual activities in a safe, lawful and respectful environment?

Warbucks

05-25-09, 09:43

LOL. Because I love the fact that I got to experiment with different sexual activities in a safe, lawful and respectful environment?

This board goes in circles. Even though I consider myself a certified monger (many photos and reports over the last 4 years) this whole “prostitution is cool" shit is really old. I don't like to tell people how to live their life but your words “prostitution is awesome" is really disturbing especially coming from a female.

Your a first world woman with many a career opportunity but you throw your self to the lions and proclaim it to be great. I think you like abuse. Is this not a sickness? What I mean by the lions? I just posted a report in the Cebu thread about a guy who proudly proclaimed how he molested a group of unsuspecting Filipinas....(which in that country (I live there) a lot of women do not have a another way of making money but to open their legs mostly to foreigners they are hoping will marry and support them). Add to the fact a lot of them are dumb as a box of crayons.... recipe for disaster.

For you this is not the case......you remind me of drug dealers( had a lot of experience in that lifestyle) who say selling narcotics is great. “I am not working for minimal wage" etc...) and they rave on about all the benefits of being a drug dealer and don't try that well... selling drugs is illegal shit. So is prostitution in most countries it's just tolerated. As for prostitution being safe, one criminal type John or one broken condom.....well....

There have been guys robbed for thousands, assaulted, threatened in some establishments....just read these boards.

Piper1

05-25-09, 09:55

Even though I consider myself a certified monger (many photos and reports over the last 4 years) Grasshopper, three more posts brings you to the 1,000-mark. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to ensure post number 1,000 is a depraved photo-filled extravaganza.

This message will self-destruct in five seconds.

Piper1

05-25-09, 10:02

...this whole “prostitution is cool" shit is really old. I don't like to tell people how to live their life but your words “prostitution is awesome" is really disturbing especially coming from a female. ... I think you like abuse. Is this not a sickness? Illogic my friend, you're being true to your username. Consensual sex between adults is not abuse.

(Forgive me if I have quoted you out of context, as I have not followed this debate - I just like popping in occasionally whenever I see your posts, and those of RN).

Piper1

05-25-09, 10:03

I will be in Dubai in next week. :)Cool, I'll bring the camera to help you celebrate your post number 1,000. :D

Piper1

05-25-09, 10:12

I see your point now - the WG *lifestyle* can be an abusive lifestyle if dependent and desperate, just like someone crossing the line from occasional recreational drug use, to desperate drug dependence and abuse.

Second time I stand corrected today, and I'm usually always right - damn!

Rubber Nursey

05-25-09, 10:48

I don't like to tell people how to live their life but your words “prostitution is awesome is really disturbing” especially coming from a female. Your a first world woman with many a career opportunity but you throw your self to the lions and proclaim it to be great. I think you like abuse.
I get where you're coming from, Illogic, but it really depends on your personal perception of prostitution. If you see it as 'abuse', then ...YES, I would look like a complete victim, asking to be abused by all and sundry. But *I* don't see it as abuse. I look back on my time in the industry as fun and empowerment and (sexual) exploration and experimentation.

Yes, I had a number of alternative career options open to me. My sex work funded my training/certification in many of these other career options...then after a while, I went back to sex work because the hours (and the money) suited me and I had a lot more fun doing it. I never felt abused or exploited or any of the other negative things that people associate with prostitution.

I understand that you may have preconceived notions of how the sex industry operates, which will influence your ideas of how I must feel about myself. But you're wrong. I don't feel that way at all. In my private life, I demand respect from my partner or I move on. I rarely engage in anything sexual that I don't enjoy and if I do, it's after comprehensive negotiation (something I learned from my time as a hooker) and I'll make my boundaries very clear. I do NOT 'like' being abused. As I said, I love PLAYING the 'dirty wh*re' role... but when that's clearly negotiated and agreed on, it hardly constitutes real abuse. It's a game.

I stand by what I said. Hooking gave me the opportunity to explore my sexuality in a safe, legal, non-threatening environment. It was awesome and I don't regret it for one second.

Piper1

05-25-09, 11:20

RN, if I may step in (well I already did ) ;),

I think a reasonable analogy is the 'recreational drug' analogy. You managed to keep hooking as an enjoyable activity, just like a non-dependent recreational drug user. For many hookers it's only a small step to becoming hooked (pardon the pun) into the lifestyle - becoming desperate and dependent. I'm sure you've seen your share of women in that position (pardon that pun also).

I saw your post in Perth Australia today - good to see you are still working to protect those involved in the sex industry (WGs *and* players).

Rubber Nursey

05-25-09, 11:39

For many hookers it's only a small step to becoming hooked (pardon the pun) into the lifestyle - becoming desperate and dependent.
Piper: I'm sorry, but I really don't get the 'desperate and dependent' argument. Let's say a lawyer - who is used to earning $150,000 a year - is asked to quit his job and work for a pro bono organisation. If he says no ...do we consider him 'desperate and dependent'? Does he have some major character flaw because he refuses to give up his $150,000 a year and do his job for free?

Because, realistically, that's what people are asking of hookers. They're saying that we should give up being paid $300 an hour and start doing it for free (or 'for love'!)

Yes, some sex workers spend their income on drugs. But so do some lawyers and doctors and hospitality workers and truck drivers, etc. Sex work is not a 'lifestyle'; it's a job. That job CAN provide for a particular lifestyle (although, not always) ...but why is that such a bad thing? Being a doctor provides for a particular lifestyle, too. Do we begrudge a doctor's choice to earn heaps of money doing something he loves? Do we attempt to control what he can and can't spend his doctor's income on? Do we criticise him if he refuses to perform his job for free?

Piper1

05-25-09, 13:04

Piper: I'm sorry, but I really don't get the 'desperate and dependent' argument. Let's say a lawyer - who is used to earning $150,000 a year - is asked to quit his job and work for a pro bono organisation. If he says no ...do we consider him 'desperate and dependent'? Does he have some major character flaw because he refuses to give up his $150,000 a year and do his job for free?

Because, realistically, that's what people are asking of hookers. They're saying that we should give up being paid $300 an hour and start doing it for free (or 'for love'!)

Yes, some sex workers spend their income on drugs. But so do some lawyers and doctors and hospitality workers and truck drivers, etc. Sex work is not a 'lifestyle'; it's a job. That job CAN provide for a particular lifestyle (although, not always) ...but why is that such a bad thing? Being a doctor provides for a particular lifestyle, too. Do we begrudge a doctor's choice to earn heaps of money doing something he loves? Do we attempt to control what he can and can't spend his doctor's income on? Do we criticise him if he refuses to perform his job for free?Sorry RN, I don't follow your illogic. ;)

The drugs analogy was purely an analogy (I wasn't talking about junkie hookers). The analogy is: some people get hooked into an abusive drug lifestyle, some people get hooked into an abusive hooker lifestyle. Both are often caused by desperation and dependence (not necessarily drug dependence).

Rubber Nursey

05-25-09, 13:56

The drugs analogy was purely an analogy (I wasn't talking about junkie hookers). The analogy is: some people get hooked into an abusive drug lifestyle, some people get hooked into an abusive hooker lifestyle. Both are often caused by desperation and dependence (not necessarily drug dependence).
Sorry, Piper. I probably shouldn't have confused the issue and mentioned drugs in my post. That wasn't what I was getting at.

What I'm asking is...what, exactly, are you suggesting that 'desperate' hookers become 'dependent' on?

The money? I think it's safe to say that ALL of us become dependent on our income, however that money is earned. Some people call hooking 'easy money', but I can assure you, it ain't! Either way, it's no more 'easy' than the dude that earns $120,000 sitting at the base of a mine directing traffic, or the political policy advisor who gets paid to ask other people to find and collate information for them.

The sex? The flexible hours? The inhouse camaraderie? If so, that's a good thing, right? To become hooked on a part of your work that you love?

As I've said many times in this thread, when it comes to job satisfaction, hookers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we hate our work, we're victims of circumstance...or, worse, exploitation or abuse. But if we love our work, we're addicted to, or dependent on, an unhealthy 'lifestyle'.

I'm the first to admit that I found it quite hard to assimilate into 'real life' employment after working in the sex industry. I was used to working my own hours and deciding my own service, with little or no supervision (and for a lot more money!) But I felt the same way long ago, after working for myself as a part-time house and office cleaner. And now, after another self-employed stint, the thought of doing what I'm told by an employer makes me shiver. Surely I'm not the only person here who feels that way?

DJ FourMoney

05-26-09, 12:51

Sorry, Piper. I probably shouldn't have confused the issue and mentioned drugs in my post. That wasn't what I was getting at.

What I'm asking is...what, exactly, are you suggesting that 'desperate' hookers become 'dependent' on?

The money? I think it's safe to say that ALL of us become dependent on our income, however that money is earned. Some people call hooking 'easy money', but I can assure you, it ain't! Either way, it's no more 'easy' than the dude that earns $120,000 sitting at the base of a mine directing traffic, or the political policy advisor who gets paid to ask other people to find and collate information for them.

The sex? The flexible hours? The inhouse camaraderie? If so, that's a good thing, right? To become hooked on a part of your work that you love?

As I've said many times in this thread, when it comes to job satisfaction, hookers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If we hate our work, we're victims of circumstance...or, worse, exploitation or abuse. But if we love our work, we're addicted to, or dependent on, an unhealthy 'lifestyle'.

I'm the first to admit that I found it quite hard to assimilate into 'real life' employment after working in the sex industry. I was used to working my own hours and deciding my own service, with little or no supervision (and for a lot more money!) But I felt the same way long ago, after working for myself as a part-time house and office cleaner. And now, after another self-employed stint, the thought of doing what I'm told by an employer makes me shiver. Surely I'm not the only person here who feels that way?

Your not....

As productivity has increased, wages have been pushed down (specifically in the United States). There are some worker protections against this in other countries or they have solidarity as a way to fight back against "greed", a bit off topic but I totally understand what your saying about the advantages of being self employed and I don't think sex work is easy, especially mentally and physically.

That's all I wanted to add :)

Chocha Monger

05-26-09, 19:10

Here is an interesting paper on prostitution:
http://economics.uchicago.edu/pdf/Prostitution%205.pdf

Some surprising facts pointed out are:

1. Prostitutes appear to do better when managed by a pimp in terms of earnings, avoiding arrest, abuse by clients and being less vulnerable to demands for free service from police and gang members.

2. A prostitute is more likely to have sex with a police officer than get officially arrested by one.

According to DOJ estimates a pimp managing six women can make over $806,000/yr.

Rubber Nursey

05-30-09, 05:07

1. Prostitutes appear to do better when managed by a pimp in terms of earnings, avoiding arrest, abuse by clients and being less vulnerable to demands for free service from police and gang members.
That makes complete sense. This is why we argue for decriminalised brothels and to allow private/independent workers to employ receptionists, or security, or work with another sex worker. Hookers are already disempowered by stigma and a lack of access to legal recourse, which encourages clients to rip them off and/or bully them into lowering their prices. Isolation only makes it worse. If there's a potential witness, or backup, or a big beefy dude waiting to smash someone's face in, clients are much more likely to play nice.

Legislators and do-gooders think they're protecting sex workers by criminalising 'pimping' activities (like living off the earnings or keeping premises), but they're actually making it a whole lot more dangerous.

2. A prostitute is more likely to have sex with a police officer than get officially arrested by one.
Ain't THAT the truth!

Thanks for posting that paper, Chocha. It was really interesting.

Bango Cheito

06-08-09, 04:19

I don't get why more people don't like incall. It seems to me to be the least risky. Outcall is risky for the guy and risky as HELL for the girl. Walking the streets is even riskier for both parties.

Gentleman Travel

06-08-09, 15:54

Anyone have comments on "Taken" an action movie based on kidnapping girls and forcing them into prostitution in France?

While the movie has a aura of gritty reality, I find the premise a bit preposterous. I mean, I'm sure there is some forced prostitution in France, just as there is in America, but this is not Turkey.
In the film there is a scene where a French policeman explains that the Albanian gangs used to import girls from Eastern Europe, but now find it easier just to snatch girls off the streets
(or out of airports, as is the case here).

It seems to me there are still legions of girls willing to earn their living on their backs. How could it be cheaper and easier to force them into it, instead of just recruiting them from poor countries in the first place?
I cannot imagine it is worth anyone's while abducting wealthy American girls - the consequences are just too great, when there is a world full of girls from countries where life is cheap.

The reason for my question is that if the film is remotely true, it is very disturbing.
Pay 4 Play with a willing seller and willing buyer is one thing.
Forced prostitution is a whole other nightmare.

Chocha Monger

06-09-09, 00:23

Goga Fung

06-09-09, 01:01

DJ FourMoney

06-09-09, 05:07

Chocha Monger

06-09-09, 15:26

I do not know about France, but some type of "slavery" is almost a norm in countries such as Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Lebanon.

Well, in the US a type of slavery is the norm with most forms of employment. It's called "credit." You need it to get housing and to purchase expensive items like cars. Most Americans are forced to work and keep their bills current or they face threats of being given a bad credit rating. This means that they can't rent an apartment or get a mortgage, their car insurance rate may increase and they may be refused a job based on a background check of their credit history.

So, most people are slaves to the financial institutions in this country. Yes. Everything is relative.

Lazzaro

06-15-09, 10:36

Gentleman:

The plot is highly unlikely in reality. As you mentioned, there are millions of women from poor countries willing to sell pussy voluntarily due to economic motives. It is far less trouble to recruit prostitutes from those countries. Many women enter into agreements with human smugglers. They agree to prostitute themselves for a period of time in order to repay the cost of being smuggled over the border. Why in the world would an organized criminal syndicate choose to call attention to itself by kidnapping women in the street or other public places in Europe or North America? It doesn’t make a bit of sense.
I do not know about France, but some type of "slavery" is almost a norm in countries such as Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, Lebanon.

Some girls see advertisement for overseas jobs (bar/restaurant), then they sign a contract in a foreign language without understanding it.

Then after they arrive to the workplace, their passports are taken away and they have no other choice but to work as prostitutes. Because now they owe lots of money for the job arrangement, ticket costs, agency "fee" etc. Also they are threatened that their family can be hurt back at home if the do not comply with the work rules and contract.

Of course some girls go to this work realizing everything (and actually ending up making some good money), and some get conned.

One girl said that it is actually much better for them to work in a club/*****house overseas than standing on a highway back at home.

So everything is relative.
I did save, 3 or 4 years ago, a post of a colleague, who posted in the Russian section the "russian black saturday" practice, to slave girls.
Here you are:

Quote
Not sure that this is the right place to get into specific details? The facts are there, and any who have used lineups very often will see what I mean. I'll give it a shot, but email me (xxxxx@mail.ru) if you have any specific questions.

The mafia "train" a new girl by what they call a "black Saturday" which is nothing more than a long weekend at a dacha where the girl is fucked constantly non-stop by 8 or 10 men. If you buy a girl and she has a scab on her lower spine, you will know that she has been through a black Saturday. She has been gang banged seriously enough that her back was rubbed raw from having her legs strung up over the men's shoulders. When she is rocked back and forth on her spine you get this abrasion. I've seen dozens. Others will show you burns from the sauna. By the way the general "excuse" will be "I fell down" or a dog "scratched" me, etc. Just point to the bruise and say "bad client" (ploha cleent) and they will generally agree and open up the truth.

Also, you will see bruises on their arms where the guy squeezes hard while he is doing her, or on her breasts. I've seen backs scratched up by finger nails, throats with burn marks, wrists and ankles with rope burns. Some girls you will find have bruises from spanking with a clear hand print, still others with a belt or paddle. I must admit I've enjoyed slapping an ass once or twice while riding her in the night.

If you buy a girl and she won't kiss you -- they often try to tell you that they don't kiss, just lift your hand as though to slap her and she will (nearly 100% of the time) become soft and pliable, and French kiss you all night long. She will respond to strength, and what amazes me is how they get excited and aroused when you show yourself strong. Then they come like banshees.

At other times, with an upraised hand, they will act like a dog does who has been beaten. You can put two and two together to realize what she has been through.

The bottom line is -- if she is talking back at you, or acting too much like a pro -- then she is taking you for a ride. She is totally bluffing her way through you. Working on the lineups is often brutal as the girl has no idea where she is being taken, or how many men will be there when she walks in the room. She thinks you don't know what you are doing if you put up with her tough talk. If she were in fact a "pro" she'd be working at night flight, not on the street.

If you like anal sex, lineups are the place to go. I generally shower with the girl, or even take a long hot bath and lay with her in the water drinking wine and kissing. Then I soap her up good and make sure she is clean, including putting my finger up her ass to let her know what to expect. I've had them ask me not to do it, but I've never had them tell me they will not do it. They know that whatever you are going to do to them will be done. Turks and Russians are often so brutal, that a firm man who treats her decent is her knight in shining armor.

I've done Greek on girls who were obviously not enjoying it who then cuddle with me and kiss -- reminding me exactly of how a child gives their love after being disciplined. One girl literally was crying the next day because I had to leave her and go to the airport. My driver was laughing his head off about the Ukrainian girl crying because I had to go away. He still laughs about it.

Also remember this, if you ever buy a girl and she is on the rag, you can take her back and get another, or you can lay her down and do Greek all night. They make the girls work when they are having their period, simply because they expect the guy to do anal.

You will also find that deep-throat is very common. Slide the girl's head off the edge of the bed and go deep. She'll take it wonderfully.

You may ask, how do I know all this? Two sources -- Russian guys I've hung around with and partied, and second, talking to the girls themselves. You ask the questions and they start talking about being gangbanged, tied up for days, and other horrors. Realize what you are buying. Not all were willing at the start, many have their passports stolen, others are forced by their own parents (yes, it's true) and still others just desperately need money. There is a dark side to the lineups that I don't recommend you jump into.

I prefer meeting the young MGU student who needs rent money or whatever, and is willing to do what it takes. No bruises, fresh bodies, and real affection are the general result.
Unquote

That's it: nothing more than my little comment

Bango Cheito

06-16-09, 06:19

ime most of not all of those girls are in it voluntarily. of course, when they get busted the first thing they are gonna do is cry [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908), they aren't stupid, they know it's their only chance to avoid prison and deportation!!

CastOnThis

06-16-09, 19:08

I did save, 3 or 4 years ago, a post of a colleague, who posted in the Russian section the "russian black saturday" practice, to slave girls.
Here you are:

Quote
Not sure that this is the right place to get into specific details? The facts are there, and any who have used lineups very often will see what I mean. I'll give it a shot, but email me (xxxxx@mail.ru) if you have any specific questions.

The mafia "train" a new girl by what they call a "black Saturday" which is nothing more than a long weekend at a dacha where the girl is fucked constantly non-stop by 8 or 10 men. If you buy a girl and she has a scab on her lower spine, you will know that she has been through a black Saturday. She has been gang banged seriously enough that her back was rubbed raw from having her legs strung up over the men's shoulders. When she is rocked back and forth on her spine you get this abrasion. I've seen dozens. Others will show you burns from the sauna. By the way the general "excuse" will be "I fell down" or a dog "scratched" me, etc. Just point to the bruise and say "bad client" (ploha cleent) and they will generally agree and open up the truth.

Also, you will see bruises on their arms where the guy squeezes hard while he is doing her, or on her breasts. I've seen backs scratched up by finger nails, throats with burn marks, wrists and ankles with rope burns. Some girls you will find have bruises from spanking with a clear hand print, still others with a belt or paddle. I must admit I've enjoyed slapping an ass once or twice while riding her in the night.

If you buy a girl and she won't kiss you -- they often try to tell you that they don't kiss, just lift your hand as though to slap her and she will (nearly 100% of the time) become soft and pliable, and French kiss you all night long. She will respond to strength, and what amazes me is how they get excited and aroused when you show yourself strong. Then they come like banshees.

At other times, with an upraised hand, they will act like a dog does who has been beaten. You can put two and two together to realize what she has been through.

The bottom line is -- if she is talking back at you, or acting too much like a pro -- then she is taking you for a ride. She is totally bluffing her way through you. Working on the lineups is often brutal as the girl has no idea where she is being taken, or how many men will be there when she walks in the room. She thinks you don't know what you are doing if you put up with her tough talk. If she were in fact a "pro" she'd be working at night flight, not on the street.

If you like anal sex, lineups are the place to go. I generally shower with the girl, or even take a long hot bath and lay with her in the water drinking wine and kissing. Then I soap her up good and make sure she is clean, including putting my finger up her ass to let her know what to expect. I've had them ask me not to do it, but I've never had them tell me they will not do it. They know that whatever you are going to do to them will be done. Turks and Russians are often so brutal, that a firm man who treats her decent is her knight in shining armor.

I've done Greek on girls who were obviously not enjoying it who then cuddle with me and kiss -- reminding me exactly of how a child gives their love after being disciplined. One girl literally was crying the next day because I had to leave her and go to the airport. My driver was laughing his head off about the Ukrainian girl crying because I had to go away. He still laughs about it.

Also remember this, if you ever buy a girl and she is on the rag, you can take her back and get another, or you can lay her down and do Greek all night. They make the girls work when they are having their period, simply because they expect the guy to do anal.

You will also find that deep-throat is very common. Slide the girl's head off the edge of the bed and go deep. She'll take it wonderfully.

You may ask, how do I know all this? Two sources -- Russian guys I've hung around with and partied, and second, talking to the girls themselves. You ask the questions and they start talking about being gangbanged, tied up for days, and other horrors. Realize what you are buying. Not all were willing at the start, many have their passports stolen, others are forced by their own parents (yes, it's true) and still others just desperately need money. There is a dark side to the lineups that I don't recommend you jump into.

I prefer meeting the young MGU student who needs rent money or whatever, and is willing to do what it takes. No bruises, fresh bodies, and real affection are the general result.
Unquote

That's it: nothing more than my little commentThat makes me so sad:( You shouldn't have posted such a thing.

Gentleman Travel

06-17-09, 19:18

Forced prostitution and pimping are horrible things and if you go back to my earliest postings we had quite a discussion on that: "I hate pimps."

Pimps are lazy freeloaders...
DH
I am cross-posting this from the American Women thread because it fits in here better.

I saw this item on pimping recently in the Economist, which I thought might be of interest. This study of prostitution finds that pimps increase the earnings of "ladies of the evening", even factoring in their commission.

Word on the street
“Trading tricks: the economics of prostitution”
By Steven Levitt

It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it. In a collision between the otherworldly analysis of the dismal science and the real world of Chicago's streets and brothels, Steven Levitt, an iconoclastic economist, offers “a rare glimpse” into the workings of the prostitution business. In Capital Ideas, he explains where prostitutes are found—they cluster on certain streets (like drug dealers)—and looks into how prices are set: non-whites get a discount, police (for obvious reasons) go free, and punters pay less if they use a condom. The risk of arrest is also slight, he discovers. For the women, he notes that unprotected sex is a common risk, but hiring a pimp can make work safer and ultimately it pays back. At $25-30 per hour, the earnings may not seem worth it, but it's more lucrative than, say, babysitting. “Prostitution doesn’t seem to be a stark moral choice,” says Mr Levitt. “It’s like a job. When it pays better, women will quit other jobs to do it.”

Here is a fuller version of the article from the Chicago Booth biz school:
www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/apr09/4.aspx

Member #4285

06-30-09, 03:04

Anyone have comments on "Taken" an action movie based on kidnapping girls and forcing them into prostitution in France?

I enjoyed every second. The best thing with the movied is the rage and vengeance. The movie shows why prostitution should be legal and they should try to work away all the bad things around this.

See the movie "The Brave One" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0476964/ for more vengeance.. (but its not about prostitution though)

-----
I re-post what I sad in a FKK-thread when this forum-section seems to fit better. The subject is about when a girl seems to not enjoy the scene anymore or are tired of this business. I wrote:

And then it's when you should do something els in your life, but I know, it's not always easy. Maybe ther is another section on this forum to discuss this, but when it's mention I just whant to say a few words.

Every job has its advantage and disadvantages and not everyone could/should work with everything. The sad thing with an exampel like this is that if she dosent want to be there any more and are tired of the scene but still struggling around it could easy end up in something really bad. For many years I was against prostitution just because there are so many bad sideeffects and there are to many girls that should do something els. But with the worldcup in Germany 2006 I changed my opinion when I saw what legal laws could do to the scene. The best thing with FKK's is that the girl keep all the cash she earn and with laws that makes this legal the pimps is kept further and further away. Plus all the social care and protection. I know after reading this board that the girls in the FKK's sometimes have some kind of pimp anyway, but even if you cant reach zero in this, the visit to Artemis after some friends invitations opend my eyes. I changed side about this. If, if there is THE way to do this, the FKK concept must be closest.

Maybe a bad comparison, but in my early workingdays I worked as a bartender and doorman in hot nightclubs with many celebs, many girls and much party. After 2 years I almost became an alcoholic and left the glamour partyscene whith all the fun and well payed jobs for a non-glamour 9 to 5 job in a storagefactory.

Dickhead

06-30-09, 03:22

I left a non-glamor 9-5 job to become an alcoholic. The work is much easier and I don't have to commute.

Member #4285

06-30-09, 03:38

I left a non-glamor 9-5 job to become an alcoholic. The work is much easier and I don't have to commute.
And with that you want to say that you are a.. dickhead? =)

Member #3439

07-01-09, 06:14

I did save, 3 or 4 years ago, a post of a colleague, who posted in the Russian section the "russian black saturday" practice, to slave girls.
Here you are:

Quote
[i]Not sure that this is the right place to get into specific details? The facts are there, and any who have used lineups very often will see what I mean. I'll give it a shot, but email me (xxxxx@mail.ru) if you have any specific questions.

The mafia "train" a new girl by what they call a "black Saturday" which is nothing more than a long weekend at a dacha where the girl is fucked constantly non-stop by 8 or 10 men.

That's it: nothing more than my little commentWe have a black friday in the US, where people start doing Christmas shopping the day after Thanksgiving. Perhaps this 'black' Saturday is the Russian allusion, where the mafia ledger balance finally goes from red losses to black profits due to the increased sales?

We don't love them.

PP

Rubber Nursey

07-03-09, 03:09

We need to be very careful with trafficking and sex slavery discussion. Trafficking and sex slavery used to mean kidnapped and/or coerced young girls from poorer nations, smuggled into underground brothels by organised crime syndicates. These days, it seems to include anything from migrant sex workers working in legal brothels, to hookers who don't really enjoy their jobs! In Australia they couldn't secure any trafficking convictions (surprise, surprise...all the girls said they'd CHOSEN to come here to work), so they simply changed the sex slavery laws and removed a migrant sex worker's ability to consent. They also changed the trafficking laws, so you don't even have to come from another country in order to be trafficked.

Trafficking, sex slavery and sex work are constantly being conflated (movies like the ones mentioned below are prime offenders). People can no longer see any difference between sex workers and sex slaves; trafficking victims and migrant labour; commercial sex and sexual abuse. All over the world, migrant sex workers are being dragged out of brothels in raids. Abolitionist laws are making a comeback, in the name of 'protecting women from slavery' (ie from prostitution). Visas are being denied to young single women, on the basis that they might engage in sex work while abroad. Constant media and political attention is forcing lawful and/or openly tolerated brothels underground, which significantly impacts on workplace safety and access to legal recourse. Billions of dollars are being diverted from sexual health and support programs and put into heavily flawed anti-trafficking strategies.

Worse, the media saturation is hurting the very women the do-gooders claim to be protecting. The other day, I read an article about a young woman who claimed she was tricked into a brothel, locked in a room working 24/7 for no payment and put through the sort of abuse detailed in Lazzaro's recent post. In the comments section underneath the article, someone had written "Seriously, who cares. I'm so over hearing about this sex slavery shit. Just leave the stupid wh*res there to rot. Natural selection". In response, someone else wrote "That's a bit harsh. They're human beings as well. Although, I must admit I'm getting angry about how much money is being spent on this stuff. And what happens after they get rescued? Does the taxpayer just support them for the rest of their lives? I mean, it's not like they're ever going to be contributing members of society".

All this anti-trafficking crap has done is add yet another layer of stigma to sex work.

Dickhead

07-03-09, 05:06

Hi, Rubbie. Long time no ?

"Seriously, who cares. I'm so over hearing about this sex slavery shit. Just leave the stupid wh*res there to rot. Natural selection". In response, someone else wrote "That's a bit harsh. They're human beings as well. Although, I must admit I'm getting angry about how much money is being spent on this stuff. And what happens after they get rescued? Does the taxpayer just support them for the rest of their lives? I mean, it's not like they're ever going to be contributing members of society".

This is exceptionally disappointing to read. The first comment I will not dignify, but:

"Does the taxpayer just support them for the rest of their lives?"

I would have to point out that the presumption would certainly be that the paying clients were taxpayers so regardless of anything else, weren't the taxpayers supporting them to begin with? I mean, who was supporting them? Non-taxpayers? I doubt it. Overall your country is one of the harder countries in which to evade taxes.

Or am I missing something here?

Bango Cheito

07-03-09, 05:33

Rubber Nursey

07-03-09, 06:54

Rubber Nursey

07-03-09, 07:02

I don't know, Bango. I'm a Gemini. Talkative, fickle, easily bored, always looking for more knowledge, variety, stimulation....yep, I was probably born to be a wh*re. :)

Chocha Monger

07-03-09, 07:17

hiya dickhead. :) i've been busy. and my computer is possessed by the devil.

in this particular case, nobody was supporting this woman. she wasn't being paid. for regular sex workers, though - i get what you mean, but isn't everyone technically supported by taxpayers if that's the case? isn't that what employment is ...income-earning consumers paying for services provided by people who earn income from providing those services? (lol sorry. i confused myself with that as well).

i'm not sure what made me more angry about that comment - that helping a victim of sexual violence is considered a waste of money, that she will never be anything other than a who*re, or that sex workers can never be contributing members of society. we don't apply that reasoning to, say, [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) victims, do we? it's the anti-trafficking strategies - and the constant long-winded justifications of their existence - that have caused comments like this. if the public are 'over' hearing about kidnapped, beaten and raped women being rescued from their captors, there is something seriously wrong.

and yes, in australia it's pretty damn hard to avoid paying tax. illegal brothels, even drug dealers, are expected to pay tax on their income!
it's unfortunate rn but it's human nature to ignore cries of "wolf" upon discovering that there was no wolf on several occasions. that is what happens when activists depend on sensationalism to shock the public into paying attention to a cause. you see this not only in [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) but environmental concerns like global climate change. i know people who refuse to believe that the earth's is climate is changing. of course there is ample evidence that it is getting warmer is some regions. the only thing that can be disputed now from a scientific point of view is what's causing the change and how much human activity may have contributed to this. but decades of alarming reports that countries would disappear like atlantis and snow would fall in the caribbean has resulted in the present apathetic state of the majority of the population.

Lazzaro

07-03-09, 07:19

I'm on a bit of an astrology kick so excuse the total derailing of the thread, but I think we all agree this sex trafficking shit is 99.99% witch hunt:

What do you guys think, especially you RN, about any influence one's sign might have on choosing to be a sex worker or not. For example, I'm a Leo and we Leos seem to have a real easy time separating love and sex, whereas SUPPOSEDLY for other signs such as Taurus they are inextricably linked. Of course, a lot of my RL experience goes against this; I know a couple Taurus who are close friends and serious sluts (of both sexes).

So do you guys think that this plays any part in sex work?IMHO, it is unbelievable that in 2009 still exist people who believe that signs and stars could have any influence on the human life and/or human character
I'm Gemini, I was born on June 6th, but it is simply out of head believe that all the people born on June 6th in the same year I was born, have the same character
You (like all of us) are a combination of genes (half from your Mom, half from your Dad); it means that it is simply unthinkable think that all the people born in the same day, are all killer or politicians or pacific or......

It is like believe that all the people of a certain religion, are all niggardly (tight-fisted) or idiot or....

No, please!

Rubber Nursey

07-03-09, 07:31

it's unfortunate rn but it's human nature to ignore cries of "wolf" upon discovering that there was no wolf on several occasions.
i completely agree. it's like modern sexual harassment laws. it used to be that if you were groped or raped in your workplace, you were being sexually harassed. now if your male workmates put up posters of naked women in the kitchen, you can claim sexual harassment! is it any wonder that these days when women claim sexual harassment, the response is "yeah. whatever"?

the saddest thing is that it's the laws, not the women themselves, that are crying wolf when it comes to trafficking and sex slavery. the laws force them to admit to being victims, even if it's quite obvious that they aren't, and that makes people less sympathetic to their cause. that's what i mean about the laws doing more harm than good for women who are real victims of trafficking and sex slavery. public sympathy is gone.

Gentleman Travel

07-03-09, 15:33

Yeah, we hear a lot about girls being forced, tricked or otherwise coerced into prostitution, but not a lot about girls who deliberately and happily choose to work in the field.

I don't know many hookers, but I have recently had the experience of connecting with a couple of amatuers who are experimenting with P4P. I met these girls through Craigslist with a sponsorship-style ad. Both girls are mid-20s cute, educated and have jobs, albeit not the jobs of their dreams. Both just want to earn a bit of extra cash by banging nice older guys, or maybe just me.

I think I am the first paying BF for one of the girls, and maybe both, although the hotter one has probably screwed her bosses and profs (in fact it is something she fantasizes about).

The hot girl, who is pretty and charming and well-educated, feels her greatest personal skill is in giving blowjobs (and I can attest to the excellence thereof) so she thinks she should use this as the foundation of her career path. She is thinking about turning pro, or at least going into escorting in a serious way. Alternatively she might like to become a porn star, but feels she would need to get a boob job first. Or maybe just become mistress to one or several sugar daddies.

My point is, here is this delightful girl that any guy would LOVE to have as a girlfriend (and several do), comes from a conventional family (Dad is a retired cop!) and is probably okay at whatever her job is, who is contemplating various sex-industry career options, based on a rational assessment of her skill strengths and her enjoyment of the work (sex), the same as other girls think about becoming accountants or policy analysts. There is not an ounce of coersion or exploitation here. Maybe other girls drift into prostitution in a less deliberate way, or have fewer attractive choices, but really many are making the same choices.

Rubber Nursey

07-04-09, 09:36

Yeah, we hear a lot about girls being forced, tricked or otherwise coerced into prostitution, but not a lot about girls who deliberately and happily choose to work in the field.
There's plenty of us out there. It's just that when we try and put our opinions and experiences out there, we are generally:
a) accused of bias and ulterior motives,
b) accused of lying,
c) attributed psychological/sexual dysfunctions and shamed into silence,
d) told we're so degraded and victimised that we don't know what we're saying,
e) all of the above.

DJ FourMoney

07-04-09, 11:45

Warbucks

07-05-09, 06:46

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=900839&postcount=1989

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=900843&postcount=1990

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=900846&postcount=1991

Chocha Monger

07-05-09, 09:49

Illogic,
That was a fascinating question. What does all this mongering do to us? I think it makes men cynical when it comes to notions about love. Somewhere on the inside a monger has to build up walls, limits and rules to prevent himself from falling for a prostitute. Some guys start seeing women as just another furry hole to be sniffed, fingered and poked. It can be nothing but a game of numbers where the monger tries to score as many fuck points as possible. It is nothing more than sport fucking really. Instead of heads guys take pictures of their trophies. The worst effect of mongering though is the one that causes previously held prejudices to be reinforced and amplified. This is evidenced by the manner in which mongers develop disdain for the entire race or ethnicity of the people they happen to be fucking for a bargain.

In many cases it is not the mongering that brings out the ugliness in these men. They were already criminals or sexual predators before leaving their home countries. They’re just taking advantage of extreme poverty and/or weak law enforcement abroad. Consider the story of the old American expat who forces his young virgin Filipina sister-in-law to suck his wrinkled geriatric cock. He would never be so bold back in the USA. http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=900404&postcount=208

Some of these old perverts start thinking that it is their god given right to fuck girls half or even a third of their age. They delude themselves into thinking these girls can love them for anything more than their money. While such relationships may occur in their homeland it is hardly the norm. These guys enter some sort of alternate reality and they can never return to a normal life in their country of origin. When they can no longer live in a hooker heaven like Thailand they often choose to end their lives. If anyone has any doubts about this they can look at the number of Western men killing themselves in very creative ways in The Land of Smiles.

On the other hand you have some balanced guys who can keep their feet on the ground. They may have tried regular relationships with women and decided that it was not what they wanted. These guys have no illusions about their relationships with hookers or much younger women. For them prostitution is simply a practical way to get sex and maybe some temporary companionship from a woman. They keep things simple, don’t lead the women on, don’t mistreat them and don’t try to reform them. However, these guys are a minority.

There are a lot of guys out there tonight fucking some poor bargirl up the ass until it bleeds or holding the back of her head down so they can cum down her throat. They think because they paid a few dollars it gives them the right to do that. But mongering didn’t make these guys this way. No. They were bastards long before that.

Rubber Nursey

07-06-09, 05:05

They think because they paid a few dollars it gives them the right to do that. But mongering didn’t make these guys this way. No. They were bastards long before that.
Beautiful post, Chocha. Just beautiful. :)

Actually, I'd probably go one step further. They're not just bastards...they're f*cking cowards. A 'real' bastard would treat EVERY woman that way. He would go out on the hunt at nightclubs, etc, looking for someone to victimise and degrade, or force his wife or girlfriend into doing things she doesn't want to do. But these cowardly bastards wouldn't risk targeting a woman who might fight back. Abusing hookers is consequence-free.

Thankfully, in my country, those men are the exception to the rule. Most Australian men would never dream of treating a sex worker like that (and tourists learn very quickly that it won't be tolerated!) The thought of what these cowardly bastards do to women in poorer places, like Thailand, makes me physically ill.

Rubber Nursey

07-06-09, 06:13

They like to screw or suck dick, why not be selective about it, instead of giving it away for free and charge a fair amount for services done with a smile?
There's certainly many women who feel this way about sex work (myself included), but it's rarely the primary motivation. Sex work is more than just having sex. Even those sex workers who are not totally into the sex factor, often still love the job due to the other, non-sex related perks.

I always enjoyed the sex side of the job, but if I had to prioritise what I liked most about sex work, I'd say
1) More money for less work: Most of the year, I worked less than 20 hours a week - only during school hours, so I was always home for my kids - but I was still earning at least the average full-time weekly wage. For the record, this is NOT about greed. It's about being able to plan your job around your life, rather than the other way around (like it is for most other working people).
2) Flexible working hours: I could take time off whenever I wanted (school functions, sick kids, etc) or, alternatively, I could pick up extra work whenever I wanted (I always used to work hardcore when my kids went away for school holidays).
3) Flexible job description: I only provided the service I was comfortable with, at the times I was comfortable with it. How many other jobs allow you to do that? Imagine being a cleaner and saying "I'll sweep floors and wash windows, but I won't scrub toilets or clean up vomit". LOL
4) Social/educational/self-esteem benefits: Way too many to mention....camaraderie with the girls, friendships with regular clients, playing dress-ups, being told you're gorgeous every day, lengthy conversations with clients and workmates, raw honesty, learning sooooo much about men and women and sex and relationships.
5) Sex: I love having sex with strangers - it's one of my biggest turn-ons. Sex work also allowed me to experiment with sex (and my sexuality) in a totally safe environment, where personal boundaries are fully negotiated and adhered to, and neither party is ever made to feel ashamed of their desires.

Yes, women (and men) who enjoy screwing around and/or think they're pretty good at it, might consider sex work a viable alternative to doing it for free. But if the rest of the job was hellish, they wouldn't stay in it for long. Just like if you had an awesome sexual relationship with a partner, but the rest of the relationship was awful...eventually, you would have to leave.

Chocha Monger

07-06-09, 19:35

See full story here:

http://www.theantifeminist.com/?p=430

Bango Cheito

07-09-09, 00:24

IMHO, it is unbelievable that in 2009 still exist people who believe that signs and stars could have any influence on the human life and/or human character
I'm Gemini, I was born on June 6th, but it is simply out of head believe that all the people born on June 6th in the same year I was born, have the same character
You (like all of us) are a combination of genes (half from your Mom, half from your Dad); it means that it is simply unthinkable think that all the people born in the same day, are all killer or politicians or pacific or......

It is like believe that all the people of a certain religion, are all niggardly (tight-fisted) or idiot or....

No, please!

I was born on Napoleon's birthday and I have a close friend who was born on Hitler's birthday. Neither of us are dictators and tyrants. But the point is this sort of thing may have a DEGREE of influence, not ABSOLUTE influence.

I ask people like RN in order to determine if there really IS any kind of a connection between sex work and the circumstances of one's birth, not assuming there is one. Do you see the difference?

I personally think that everything has an INFLUENCE on you, not just the starts, but your DNA, your environment, perhaps even something you bring into this life from a past one. All of those are possible influences. I think however that willpower is the the biggest deciding factor, and could negate any and all other factors at play.

On another note, I'd hate to try abusing the girls in any of the places I've been in here in Colombia. They would likely cut you up into little pieces and feed you to the dogs for that, or grind you into the meet for those hamburguers they sell on the street at 3am.

I'd also like to add, why are we so worried about sex workers getting "old and hardended".... I've said it a million times before, what about women in abusive long term monogamous relationships? I GUARANTEE you no matter WHAT country you are in this is a more serious problem for women's health and safety than ANY amount of sex work under ANY actual conditions. I beleive it's something like in the US today, a woman is twice as likely to be killed by a jealous husband, bf, or ex, than a sex worker is likely to be killed by a client. And that's in the US where sex work is risky and illegal!!

Speaking from personal experience, I know a girl who just got back together with her crazy obsessive death-threat-making ex bf who she SWORE she'd never get back together with. Why she did it, probably fear, but who knows? My jaw dropped when I heard the news, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

Does sex work inherently make one tough and hard and ruin the capacity for love? I'd say absolutely not. It often takes a girl who has only been with 3 or 4 guys and gives her exponentially more experience, and a much better perspective on human sexuality. The business end of it tends to make people a lot more astute and savvy. This could be interpreted as "hardness" and undesirable by people who want to take advantage of people or don't want to know their own real place in the universe.

Dickhead

07-09-09, 00:45

Yeah, we hear a lot about girls being forced, tricked or otherwise coerced into prostitution ... a couple of amatuers who are experimenting with P4P.

Well, if you take money for sex you are a hooker, end of story. I don't believe in amateurs or semi-pros. But I just talked about this today with a hooker I've known for a few years. She uses her real name and puts her face (and everything else) on the internet and her family knows what line of work she is in. "When I was getting out of high school I thought about what I wanted to do for a living. I like to fuck and I can't get enough sex and everybody said I was good at it so ..."

And boy is she good at it!

Dickhead

07-09-09, 00:59

What does all this mongering do to us? I think it makes men cynical when it comes to notions about love.

In my case it was the opposite. I was cynical about notions about love, so that made me monger, not the other way around. Well, it didn't make me monger; nobody makes me monger! I monger because it's easier and more fun, the sex is better, and it's cheaper.

Yes, it's cheaper even without thinking about divorce, and without considering children. Consider the following equation: Birthday gift + Christmas gift + anniversary gift + flowers a couple of times a year + [(engagement ring + wedding ring + wedding) / average life of a marriage)] > cost of mongering the number of times a week the average married woman puts out.

Let's say twice a week, at my age. For me to monger twice a week, including two condoms per session, bus fare to the privado, and a little chocolate bon-bon or something for the chica, costs me about $60 a week so say $3000 a year. A WC professional is going to have a hard time getting away for less than that just on the 3 main gifts alone. Maybe you could get away with $1500 (of course two of the three main gift occasions require an expensive dinner out as well). Then you amortize the cost of the rings and the wedding (and honeymoon) over the twelve years the average marriage lasts, throw in the flowers, and at best it's a wash.

And that twice a week of married sex? Is it what you want when you want it and with whom you want it? No, it is not. And you can't put a price tag on that.

Of course if you are a Dickhead the cost of your wedding was virtually zero
and there was only one ring involved, and you married a sex fiend, but still.

Chocha Monger

07-09-09, 01:06

Well, if you take money for sex you are a hooker, end of story. I don't believe in amateurs or semi-pros. But I just talked about this today with a hooker I've known for a few years. She uses her real name and puts her face (and everything else) on the internet and her family knows what line of work she is in. "When I was getting out of high school I thought about what I wanted to do for a living. I like to fuck and I can't get enough sex and everybody said I was good at it so ..."

And boy is she good at it!
I agree Dickhead, when it comes to hooking a woman can either be a hooker or not be a hooker. Hooking isn’t like sports there isn’t any such thing as amateur, semi-pro or pro. It’s not like if the hookers have to go through qualifying series to be certified into a given class. A woman becomes a bona fide hooker the instant she accepts cash for ass. How many times she sells her ass is of no importance. Still some guys attach importance to whether they are number 100, 500, 1000 or 200,000. Some guys do the same thing with their girlfriends. They want to know how many guys she fucked before them. If they fucked better or longer? Were their dicks bigger? It’s really just insecurity.

Dickhead

07-09-09, 01:09

"personal boundaries are fully negotiated"

Sure glad they don't do that here. I never negotiate anything like that. You don't want me to do it, I don't do it but negotiating what is going to happen before the session? What fun is that?

Today I got offered a 2 for the price of 1.6 discount so I took two ladies. That's not my thing but I find it hard to resist a bargain. One I knew quite well (X) and the other I had never been with (Y). So Y is sucking my dick and X is performing unspeakable acts and I am getting ready to come in Y's mouth and X whispers in my ear, "DH, don't do that; she doesn't like it." Now that was kinda strange. I guess X was looking out for the newby?

So obviously I came in X's mouth instead and then X grabbed Y and made like she was going to kiss her and Y screamed and giggled. Now that was fun!

Dickhead

07-09-09, 01:21

Right on CM. However, I do not subscribe to "once a hooker, always a hooker." I did get into a little trouble with one of my favoritas last week; she is no longer on the open market and is living with a guy and has another BF on the side like any normal Latina, but she still takes money from me. She said something about "back when I used to be a prostitute" and since I like to live dangerously, I said, "You are still a prostitute." "No, I am not!" "Okay, I won't give you any money then." "um er um uh." Later I said, "You have pussy and need money and I need pussy and have money so don't worry about it."

I confess I do give her birthday gifts, though. Never give a woman a practical gift. Three years ago she was always complaining how hot her house was so I gave her a big electric floor fan and had it delivered to her house. Wrong. "I want a pair of shoes." "How many pairs of shoes do you have?" "[some number equivalent to the entire number of pairs of shoes I've bought in my entire life]" "Doesn't the fan make you more comfortable?" "Oh yes."

So two years ago she got shoes, and yes, I had to go shopping for them with her. "How do these look?" "Fabulous." "You are just saying that because you are tired of shopping." "Honestly they do look great on you and honestly yes, I am tired of shopping."

They do look really good on her, especially with stockings and a garter belt and nothing else.

Bango Cheito

07-09-09, 02:19

I can say definitely that my capacity to love has not disappeared AT ALL since years of mongering. As a matter of fact here in Colombia, there are quite a few women, and one especially, that brought back all the stupid feelings I had when I was in high school. Not sure if that's such a good thing either :P

As a matter of fact, one of the things I like about mongering is it puts me in good perspective, it stops me from putting women on a pedestal and being all unrealistic about them. The scary thing is that in that particular regard, it seems to have stopped working :O

As far as neogtiating beforehand goes, I've been actually called out as the guy who wants to plan ev everything. Obviously with non-pros that's usually not even possible nor desirable, but when paying, I like to do things that way. I don't want to be disappointed after having plunked down cash. And when I go in paying for it I usually have a certain act or acts I want to do, it's like if I go to the restaurant one day I know I want the big salad, the other day I might want a nice piece of chicken or something :P It doesn't ruin it for me at all.

Dickhead

07-09-09, 05:11

I get exactly what you are saying but after 37 years of mongering, I figure if they won't do act X they will do act Y and that will be okay. Really, I have two advantages in mongering. #1 is I don't seek a certain physical type. Tall, short, dark, light, a bit skinny or a bit chubby; it's all good to me. Now, I don't take this to extremes: no fatties, no anorexics, anything over 6'4" I have to go up on and anything under 4'2" where I can set my beer on their head, I don't go there.

#2 I don't seek a certain act. I understand some guys need a certain thing to get what they need, sexually, and I agree those guys may need to negotiate this in advance. I am glad I do not have these constraints.

It's possible that I am a complete ****. What gets me off is when she gets off and whatever occurs in the process I normally like.
The great thing about Latina America is that most prostitutes are pretty horny and thus don't set a lot of limits so you can pretty much do whatever you want. And what I want is pretty normal so I have no real problems.

Warbucks

07-09-09, 05:14

Still some guys attach importance to whether they are number 100, 500, 1000 or 200,000. Some guys do the same thing with their girlfriends. They want to know how many guys she fucked before them. If they fucked better or longer? Were their dicks bigger? It’s really just insecurity.

I guess I am insecurse because I would never accept a woman who has slept with a lot of men. I just wouldn't want a relationship with a woman who gives out the pussy like government cheese. A woman should show some restraint that's just me.

Comedian Chris Rock said it best. "It's hard for a man to get pussy. But its easy for a women to get dick."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMiyg87UhL4

I can say definitely that my capacity to love has not disappeared AT ALL since years of mongering. As a matter of fact here in Colombia, there are quite a few women, and one especially, that brought back all the stupid feelings I had when I was in high school. Not sure if that's such a good thing either :P

Before I started mongering all I wanted was a woman to call my own a wife (had one of those already) a house in the suburbs and kids. The American dream. Now all I want is the Nacirema dream. Nothing but endless supplies of young, fresh nubile women to fuck. I have become insatiable sex wise and women wise.

I was always insatiable sex wise but before I didn't want to change women like socks. I was content with one woman. This is no longer the case.

All these guys talking about they are the same since they became a monger....

I just love the denial that is so prevalent on this forum.

Chocha Monger

07-09-09, 05:59

I guess I am insecurse because I would never accept a woman who has slept with a lot of men. I just wouldn't want a relationship with a woman who gives out the pussy like government cheese. A woman should show some restraint that's just me.

Comedian Chris Rock said it best. "It's hard for a man to get pussy. But its easy for a women to get dick."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMiyg87UhL4
I understand what you're saying but how in the world would you know how many miles of cock she has had run through her? Studies show that most women lie about how many miles of cock they've had. They usually under report the mileage. So if the woman is not a virgin with an intact hymen you just have to accept her word for it.

Gentleman Travel

07-09-09, 15:34

I agree Dickhead, when it comes to hooking a woman can either be a hooker or not be a hooker. Hooking isn’t like sports there isn’t any such thing as amateur, semi-pro or pro. It’s not like if the hookers have to go through qualifying series to be certified into a given class. A woman becomes a bona fide hooker the instant she accepts cash for ass.
Well, I have to disagree there.
Maybe it varies by culture, but in my experience I see a difference between a dedicated pro, a semi-pro with a day job or going to school, and a girl a girl who is just experimenting around the edges, or who takes a trick or two to meet a specific financial need. Maybe there is not a big difference between pros and semis, except the latter would rather she didn't have to do this - maybe she is hoping she will meet someone who will "take her away from all this" or at least sponsor her, so she doesn't have to sell her ass to all cummers. Someone she can pretend is her boyfriend (who also happens to pay for her apartment and clothes). I have met semi-pros like that.

Then there are "dates" whom you do not pay in cash, but in presents or treats (like nice dinners or trips). These range through a large area of grey from substantial gifts (like trips or clothes) down to normal girlfriend/wife arrangements, where the man is still providing lifestyle enhancements. I have seen some guys here say "all women are wh*res" because of this. I have to disagree strongly with that concept.

Sure, sometimes there might be no difference in how the girls feel, behave and provide service - but sometimes there are. The "amatuers" I reported earlier in this thread both needed to meet me first and get comfortable before taking the plunge into P4P. I presume they would not fuck just anybody, although that could change with time. So they are being selective both in who they meet and what services they provide. Pros usually are not selective, except for safety considerations.

It may have to do with culture. Certainly in Eastern Europe there is not the same kind of shame associated with fucking for rewards and there are a lot of non-pro girls there, who fuck for fun, profit or lifestyle. And they don't see themselves as wh*res, which is really the essential point - how does the girl see herself? Because that is going to dictate how you have to interact with her. If she wants cash on the night-table she is some version of pro. If there is some delicate dance before buying you way into her bed, then it is some variation of non-pro. Personally I like the delicate dances better.

If I were looking for an Eastern European woman for a wife, I wouldn't want one that had worked as a pro. But I would be crazy to think that I could find one who had never fucked another guy just because he bought her a nice dinner, or she hoped he would do something for her in the future. That's not prostitution, that's just life.

Dickhead

07-10-09, 02:50

Inherently moral because you don't have to lie your way into anyone's pants. Inherently moral because when done correctly there are no false expectations. Inherently moral because it does not violate any of the Ten Commandments. I am an atheist but the Ten Big Ones are OK by me.

Look at all the people whose lives have recently been ruined by pussy: Elliot Spitzer, Steve McNair, Senator Ensign, Governor I Forget His Name, and the list goes on and on.

Only Spitzer got ruined by commercial pussy. McNair by all accounts was a good man. He needed some strange and it cost him his life. This is not correct. He bought this woman an Escalade (although apparently he only made the down payment? Not that good of a gift especially since modern GM products are terrible); how many hookers could he have bought/rented instead with the same amount of cash? And he'd be alive today.

Spitzer was a good man too, although consumed by ambition. If someone can explain to me how this mongering that he did affected his ability to do his job, I am all ears.

Governor I Forget His Name, now he is guilty of dereliction of duty and lying to the people who elected him. He would be just as guilty of dereliction of duty if he had flown down here and mongered, but he wouldn't have gotten caught. He probably wanted to get caught and was consumed with guilt. Again mongering would have been the more moral choice. Much less impact on his family and 98% of the hookers down here don't speak English (the other 2% I avoid assiduously) and so would not be giving interviews.

Senator Ensign was not involved with hookers. Yeah right. His family gave her what was it? $100k? = hooker and a way overpriced one at that. The guy grew up in Las Vegas for goodness' sakes. Are there hookers in Las Vegas? Is a frog's ass water-tight? I do believe there are since I have fucked several in that obnoxious shit hole. Could he have gotten a few for $100k? I believe so. Would he still have gotten blackmailed? Maybe so but the payoff would probably have been cheaper.

Then there is this gay theater professor from the University of Northern Colorado who put a hidden camera in his bathroom to view people pissing, which he would then watch on closed-circuit TV. This is a strange fetish to me but whatever you need. Wouldn't he have been better off hiring a qualified professional to satisfy this fetish? Wouldn't that be more moral than taping unsuspecting people?

I rest my case.

Chocha Monger

07-10-09, 04:56

Dickhead,
It was Governor Mark Sanford who flew down to Argentina to peddle his conservative cock. That is an excellent piece you wrote. It's true pussy can ruin a man, sometimes even kill him.

Yellow Fever #2

07-10-09, 05:49

John Dough

07-11-09, 01:44

Ever Google your handle?
http://www.walnet.org/csis/groups/swav/johndoe_50.html

$JOHN DOUGH
IT'S A BUSINE$$
DOING PLEASURE

MARK YOUR MONEY! -- SWAV's self-inking $JOHN DOUGH money stamp lets you tell people, banks and the government that the sex trade is an important part of our economy.

Jelly Donut

07-11-09, 01:57

the Nacirema dream..

Thanks for this reference. I found Body Ritual among the Nacirema because of it. Enjoyed it very much and recommend it.

Dickhead

07-11-09, 06:46

first i should note that here in buenos aires, if you were to call the police, an ambulance, and a hooker at the exact same time, the hooker would undoubtedly arrive first, and do a much better job. in fact, forget about 911 as a phone number but consider it more as the number of hookers available within a five block radius of my apartment. that's a low number so i am moving tomorrow.

as an impressionable youth i began to fuck my older married neighbor. this would now be [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) on her part, but way back then it was all my fault. we ran off together and had eight weeks of drug fueled hot sex before she abandoned me in a foreign country. while this was a challenging experience to say the least, i learned all about pussy and became a man at an early age.

but then i had a monkey on my back. having experienced pussy, it became a need rather than a mere want as it was for most of the masturbating maniacs in my age group. fortunately there were puerto rican hookers available at affordable prices or i might have become a serial killer. or maybe even a cereal killer because a lot of times i was so broke i might have killed for cheerios. the tender ministrations of these latin ladies may have saved my life, or the lives of the innocent victims i might have randomly strafed under a different set of circumstances.

subsequently i bought into the conventional bullshit of marriage and monogamy and so forth and became marooned in that for a number of years. fortunately my wife was a sex freak so that really helped, but the truth is that women are way too neurotic to actually live with. hence we divorced and i dedicated myself to work, career, ambition, and similar futility. pussy was rare but i had been brainwashed into thinking that was relatively unimportant.

upon becoming cynical about capitalism and seeing my ambition begin to wane, i began to monger extensively in foreign countries and i discovered that, in fact, renting is superior to owning. that applies to any depreciating asset. pussy is a depreciating asset because women age more quickly than men, and because the more times you fuck a women the less exciting it becomes. the fourth doughnut is not as pleasurable as the third doughnut. this is known as the "doctrine of declining marginal utility."

so at some point i had a chat with myself and i knew i had to either continue with the dating scene in the yew ess or immerse myself in latina hookers regardless of the consequences. before i did this i had to think about "the morality of prostitution."

was it moral of me to stay in the yew ess and say whatever bullshit in a desperate quest to get occasional pussy? was it moral of the yew ess government to limit my options to the degree that it did? and, more importantly, was it moral for me to trade my yew ess dollars for latina pussy? these hookers are normally seeking to support a child although the one i banged today

http://www.gozanos.com.ar/escort/roc%c3%ado/

has no kids and so would be representative of rubbie's theory that this career can be freely chosen. also her pussy tastes really good but that is beside the point. or not.

i conclude that it is moral of me to screw these latinas for a modest amount of money because if i don't, someone else will, and i treat them very well and will not get them pregnant, which is the root cause of most of their problems in the first place.

furthermore if www.gozanos.com.ar had franchises world-wide, the world would be a better, safer, and more moral place. oh my god this is a very good wh@rehouse.

hence i conclude the most moral choice is to try to fuck myself to death as quickly as possible but that is proving to be harder than i thought it would be.

Rubber Nursey

07-11-09, 07:39

Interesting that everyone agrees about the inherent 'morality' and honesty of the sex trade...yet most still think hookers themselves are inherently immoral and untrustworthy (in the context of relationships). hmmm

re: the semi-pro discussion
To me, saying you're 'semi-pro' is like saying you're a little bit pregnant. The hours you work and the type of clients you see, make no difference whatsoever. An accountant might work full-time, part-time or once a year at tax time...but they're still an accountant. A high-class fashion house may cater to an exclusive thin, rich Hollywood clientele, but they're still a clothing retailer, just like Target and Kmart.

That said, I believe 'wh*re' is a state of mind. If it makes her feel better to say she's just earning a bit of extra cash, "but I'm not a prostitute", that's fine by me. I don't blame her for wanting to distance herself from the shame and stigma that's always heaped on us. Plus, if she has a day-job that she identifies with and is proud of, it makes sense that she'd consider that as her occupation and sex work as just a bit of fun on the side - if I was a pro-bono lawyer working parttime at Maccas to supplement my income, I'd introduce myself to people as a lawyer, not a kitchen hand. But just because she doesn't identify with the sex worker community, doesn't mean she isn't a sex worker. She sucks cock for cash, just like the rest of us.

Rubber Nursey

07-11-09, 07:57

re: The quality of service from newbies or part-timers, compared to that of 'hardened hookers'.

I'll let you guys in on a (rather open) secret...hookers who have been around for a while understand the benefits of saying that we're new to the industry, or studying part-time, or just doing this for some quick cash and then getting out fast. WE KNOW that's what you want to hear. We know it makes you feel special and safer (disease-wise) and more experienced in the ways of the world than we are. We also know it's more likely to make you come back for another round, because we're available for a 'limited time only'. (And if I'm still seeing you in five years, I can tell you it's because "beautiful/special clients like yourself made me feel like staying").

New girls, on the other hand, often feel scared and lost and completely out of their depth. They're paranoid that clients are gonna rip them off or abuse them or take advantage of them. They often DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW that they're new or inexperienced.

If a client comes in and asks "How long have you been doing this", a long-time worker will recognise the significance of the question and start with the "Not very long. I recently got divorced and need to support my kids and I want to put myself through university, but I couldn't balance kids and study with a normal job, so I thought I'd give this a go for a short while..." spiel. Newbies will fall over themselves to say they've been doing it for ages and they love sex and they think maybe they've found their calling and they might do this for the rest of their lives because sex for money is just sooo awesome...

The sex (and often, the emotional/physical intimacy) in sex work is raw and honest and real. The rest is carefully constructed fantasy. Don't ever forget that.

Rubber Nursey

07-11-09, 08:31

... but a woman who chooses this career should be able to do this freely. This would drive down prices and drive up service levels.
I think we should encourage prostitution to become an essential service, on the same level as police, fire, ambulance.
FYI: As someone who lives in a country where sex work is mostly lawful (and/or openly tolerated), I can assure you prices don't necessarily go down. In fact, P4P is ridiculously expensive here. In my opinion, it's not sex itself - the value society places on it, the availability of it, etc - that influences sex industry prices. It's the stigma involved. Nobody with half a brain is going to subject themselves to the lifetime of discrimination and punishment that comes with being a wh*re or ex-wh*re, without adequate compensation.

Even if sex work itself became stigma and criminal penalty-free (which I don't see EVER happening), former sex workers are still seen as 'damaged goods', thanks to society's sexual double standards. Hookers have sex with lots of people and that impacts on their ability to secure normal, loving relationships after leaving the sex industry. Unless society's double standards around sex also disappear, sex workers will ALWAYS want adequate compensation for the financial/emotional damage it will do to their future security.

And for the record, people with disabilities in Australia can currently claim sex industry services as part of workers compensation packages, etc from their health insurance provider and even, in some cases, from the national health system. Ok, so that's not exactly 'emergency services'. But it's a start. :)

Yellow Fever #2

07-11-09, 10:39

And for the record, people with disabilities in Australia can currently claim sex industry services as part of workers compensation packages, etc from their health insurance provider and even, in some cases, from the national health system. Ok, so that's not exactly 'emergency services'. But it's a start. :)

Several years ago I met a monger in Shenzhen China who was from Denmark and worked in the social services in that country.

He told me that if a person is on social assistance in Denmark, that they get an allowance to visit escorts.

Although I will never be on social assistance in Denmark, can anyone in this forum verify this claim? Just out of interest.

Gfe Finder

07-11-09, 11:53

FYI: As someone who lives in a country where sex work is mostly lawful (and/or openly tolerated), I can assure you prices don't necessarily go down. In fact, P4P is ridiculously expensive here. In my opinion, it's not sex itself - the value society places on it, the availability of it, etc - that influences sex industry prices. It's the stigma involved. Nobody with half a brain is going to subject themselves to the lifetime of discrimination and punishment that comes with being a wh*re or ex-wh*re, without adequate compensation.

Even if sex work itself became stigma and criminal penalty-free (which I don't see EVER happening), former sex workers are still seen as 'damaged goods', thanks to society's sexual double standards. Hookers have sex with lots of people and that impacts on their ability to secure normal, loving relationships after leaving the sex industry. Unless society's double standards around sex also disappear, sex workers will ALWAYS want adequate compensation for the financial/emotional damage it will do to their future security.

Interesting point. I always wondered why prostitution in Nevada (and the rest of the USA to a lesser extent) was so expensive in particular compared to Western Europe. Now, I think I may have my answer. Thanks, RN!

Dickhead

07-11-09, 14:51

No, brothel sex in NV is ridiculously expensive because of Economics 101: supply and demand. It's only available in certain bum fuck counties where no one wants to live so the supply is extremely limited. And, since it's the only legal venue in the whole country, demand is wide-spread.

Additionally RN lives in the most conservative part of Australia and I really didn't think P4P was "ridiculously expensive" in for example, Melbourne, where there are many Asians who will clean your whole system for 70-80 Ozzie dollars. Now when I was there the exchange rate was 2 Oz to 1 US and sadly that is no longer true.

Ham Yai

07-11-09, 15:26

WOMEN

PROSTITUTION

The word has become sexist in itself because the Oxford dictionary differentiates between a Prostitute and a Male Prostitute. A nurse is a nurse, unless it’s a male nurse? So I will take the sexism out of prostitution and refer to it as a “person” who “engages in sexual activity for payment”, but is there not a reasonable argument that all woman want payment for sex. It is just what you define as payment?

“Sex is the price women pay for marriage.

Marriage is the price men pay for sex”

“Whereas a woman needs love to open up to sex, a man needs sex to open up to love.”

So what causes the demand for women prostitutes? One argument put forward by women prostitutes, is women themselves. Those who fail to understand or give their husbands what they want. I realize women who sell her bodies also need to justify her way of life too.

However it is a reasonable argument on the basis that most prostitutes’ customers are married men, who have access to sexual gratification with their wives. The kind of sex most married men want from a prostitute is oral sex. They like to have their penises sucked and often explain that the only reason they like it is that their wives refuse to do it. A blow job as it is known in the trade is fast easy and clean. No dirty linen, no washing up either and in most cases the girl doesn’t even need to get undressed. Fellatio is not the only “request”. Next comes cunnilingus, or going down on a woman, but prostitutes don’t like that so much. (I wonder why).Other “tricks” I will pass here but straight sex or intercourse can be included.

I don’t think I have completely explained why men visit prostitutes but I think it can be fairly certain to be the next stage of self masturbation. I have always understood that men masturbate to empty that full feeling apart from the obvious pleasure. This full feeling occurs regularly in men, whereas self masturbation by women is not that urgent, as their excitable sexual cycle tends only to occur during and within the menstrual cycle.

So men get bored with self masturbation and cannot find a willing partner when the “urge” arises. I would call it a biological urge need rather than more “fun”. As maturity proceeds, masturbation gradually recedes and copulation takes over.
“Men have only one thing on their minds—sex” contains only a germ of truth. Some men do and some do at certain times in their life. I started at 16 but some say 21. It is relevant because erections become a “problem” at different ages for different men, but “curing” a man’s virginity is where many prostitutes come in. I make no excuse at this stage by saying that loosing ones virginity to a prostitute should be avoided at all costs.

Men and boys who visit prostitutes are not realizing their feelings for love, and women who sell their body for sex either has no love for her client or is unsatisfying her need for love.

Sex in a loving relationship is exquisite. Don’t be shy as love can come in all shapes and sizes and does believe me.

Whereas the average man is capable of about one ejaculation per session without straining himself, a woman can and prostitutes do service a regiment in the same interval.

I have never been satisfied by a prostitute until I arrived in a country where selling her body for sex was a natural for a woman as eating 6 times a day, and then only certain women prostitutes, who don’t see themselves as *****s but subscribe to the saying,n no money no honey.

Western society has gone mad.

For many men sexual arousal is the key for helping them to connect with and realize their loving feelings, so what has happened?

Society itself has become the obstacle to problem free lovemaking.

“Prostitution is a violent act” says Mary Senior STUC

“ Women living in fear” -- Thousands of desperate women still walk the streets every night, living in fear of meeting the same fate as the five women murdered in Ipswich

“Women demand an end to prostitution” says Feminist Coalition Against Prostitution co founder Finn Mackay. “ As long as men are allowed to buy and sell women in prostitution, the industry will continue to grow.

A government –commissioned survey, also published on 4th Sept 08 found that the majority of men and women would support legislation making it illegal to pay for sex if it would help tackle sex trafficking”

Sweden’s prostitution law makes it illegal to buy sex, but not to sell it.

I could go on and I will if you ask but until prostitution is either made legal or an acceptance that women sell their bodies for money not love, of course men will react in an unnatural way that offends what is not socially accepted in one country but is not an issue in another.

Women’s groups in the West pressure their governments to “see prostitution for what it is”. Sane men continue to ask women what is prostitution.

It isn’t rocket science for women to discover that sex sells, and poor women, some who have experienced sexual abuse become “sellers of sex”

Many men believe, as I do that in a civilized society lust has a place.

Society is not solely based on the repression of instinct in general and lust in particular. People need the release of pleasure but if this Western society depends on the wholesale repression of instinct for its future, then the possibility of a sexual tolerant, humane and democratic society is slim indeed.

Two very simple steps would be to solve the problem in a democratic and humane way, as for drug addiction, is to legalize prostitution, and register prostitutes, but whether the worlds oldest profession can control themselves, is debatable.

When did prostitution begin? Harlots are mentioned 44 times in the Bible,*****s and *****mongers is mentioned eight times. Obviously love for money was well established by 2000BC. From its origins until relatively recently,prostitution has been a more or less respectable profession.

The trouble started with the ancient Hebrews who condemned *****s. Most were directed toward their own who took up the trade. Foreign prostitutes were relatively well tolerated among them. Where the New Testament begins, as the Old one left off, a religious campaign against prostitution, which took on the attributes of the Crusade and which continues with its original fervour even today in Western society.
So now you know who is to blame!

The ancient Chinese, Greeks,Armenians,Syrians and Cypriots, to name a few, considered prostitution a noble calling and included it in their religious ceremonies. Temples had official prostitutes and intercourse with them was considered an acceptable form of worship, for a small fee of course. ( early corruption or religious profiteering). Many of these ladies were volunteers in the sense that they only worked for a year or so, donating ALL the proceeds of their labours to the church.
Missionary work? No, not my joke, but this WAS considered the equivalent of modern missionary work. How times change! (And so do missionaries.)

When their time was up the part time prostitutes returned home to their husbands and families with greatly enhanced prestige. ( I would like to think and support it as a learning curve for girls today) ( says he, with tongue in cheek).

Among certain groups, sacred prostitution has a more practical twist. Armenians and Cypriots encouraged their daughters to earn their dowries by working as freelance prostitutes before marriage.

I have a Telegraph newspaper article here dated 10/10/07 “Cambridge University students are working as strippers, prostitutes and escorts,” according to the University newspaper. “Cash strapped students who found taking their clothes off a “quick and easy” way to make money”. Nothing changes then except that these students wanted GBP 50 an hour. (It doesn’t say if they either enjoyed doing it or found it an additional hands on, experience) my words.

Even through the Middle Ages prostitution was accepted as a way of life and the more elegant *****s moved freely in upper class society. ( The rich gets all the pleasures?) Among the lower classes, the prostitutes life was harder,but not necessarily unrespectable. (No change there either.).

In Modern times prostitution has remained socially acceptable in most places, but after the Soviets took control in Eastern Europe following WW2, prostitution was outlawed. France Italy ,Belgium and Japan followed.However most of Asia recognizes or tolerates prostitution as do the Arab world and Latin America, where with certain exceptions, allows unrestricted prostitution. Mexico has considered prostitutes legal for a long time.

Isn’t prostitution a terrible thing? A lot of people think so. But the facts don’t necessarily bear out their emotions.

Prostitution

Questions

a)spreads VD,
b) increases sex crimes,
c) corrupts young people and
d) is morally degrading are the main objections.
Answers
a)Not true as those working STD clinics will tell you.

b)Not true as where the trade is legal sex crimes are almost non existent

c) Not true, but corruption is a loaded word, but here in Thailand the moral fibre of the nation doesn’t seem to be adversely affected.

d) True, definitely because we make it that way by looking down on those who sell their sexual favours, by making them criminals, by shutting them off from society, we succeed in alienating them completely. Some of the bitterness and contempt rubs off on to the customers, who are more than willing BUT WRONG to pass it on to the lady on their arm.

Prostitution is a fact of life. Neither good nor bad . Indiscriminate sexual intercourse for money goes against my moral grain, but that’s the way I have been brought up. I have been indoctrinated, ( the Victorian attitudes do remain) as have the politicians of the Western society.

“If there wasn’t the demand, there wouldn’t be the supply” as the old saying goes.
Jennifer, as she was then, aged 11, told me in Junior school how much she wanted to kiss me and our holding hands blossomed until my mother found out from Jennifer’s mother and suggested I bring Jennifer home. The result was that I left home, and Jennifer, but that’s another story. Fortunately I was no longer a virgin at just 16 because an older girl who liked sex invited me into a hay shed. At 17 a holiday romance with Catrina ( I am sure she won’t mind now she’s 65 either ) gave me so much pleasure, so much puppy love and so much understanding of how girls work, that my need for prostitutes has been limited to the hard times in my life.

So what causes the “demand”

That is the story for part two..

In the meantime lets here from you and your experiences. Write to me in confidence that I promise not to reveal your name (unless you say otherwise) I have a professional reputation to maintain. I will tell you about that too in another time.

Continued Part 2

So what causes the “demand?”

In part one I gave you the demand that men like fellatio and their wives refused to do it.

But that is only part of the story as you are aware.

If casual sex were more available to men then there would not be a need for prostitutes, but women just aren’t like men.

Oh really? Is this the big “equality” lie then? The sixties generation thought everything should be free, including free love and those of us who will now have retired will remember them as the best years of their lives.

Women were born into a world which encouraged young women to explore their sexuality. It was presented as the feminist act. How these feminists have changed their tune now.

Cosmopolitan future editor Helen Gurley asked “Can a woman have sex like a man? Yes, she said, because “like a man, a woman is a sexual creature”.

However far from bringing the lasting relationship to the women it made marriage a more distant prospect. Many became dissatisfied daughters of the sexual revolution. Women now realize that casual sex is a con and are choosing to remain chaste.

Equally damaging is a legacy of the Victorian era a century ago. Back then doctors and psychologists agreed that women had no sexual feelings, and therefore men had no responsibility to provide what “everyone knew” women could not appreciate.
During Victorian times, the only women who acknowledged their sexuality were prostitutes. Since “ladies” were considered incapable of sexual arousal, whereas men were “ruled by animal lust”, the idea that making love involved intimate sharing between two equally arousal lovers made little sense.

Men “took” their wives or hired ladies of the evening, and all women –both wives and prostitutes- “submitted” to men. Wives experienced sexual submission as their religious duty; professional women saw it as a business commitment.

Domination and submission were built into sexual relationships and sex meant asserting power over women, not making love with them.

Today we understand that men and women are equally capable of appreciating sexual experiences and that lovemaking involves give and take.

Old notions still have a considerable hold in lovemaking. Note James Bond films, TV programming and popular music.

Many men still subscribe to the “feel them, fuck them and fuck them again and forget them” (FFFF) approach.

My wife and I subscribe to all forms of love play which includes domination and submission by both of us. We talk about everything we do. In the privacy of our home we are completely relaxed about all the situations I have referred to.
So there you have it all nicely wrapped up.

Women are responsible for the demand for Prostitution and the “lasting relationship” that marriage brings.

That, my friend in a nutshell, is the madness of this matriarchal Western society.
Women are now against Prostitution and are the cause of destroying the”lasting relationship”, they alone seek, that is….. marriage.

(Far more women file for divorce than men. I don’t know the exact figures but someone can remind me about the subject?)

There is nothing wrong with a marriage as long as it is a contract with a pre nuptial agreement and men recognize that 1 in 3 will end in divorce and recriminations brought mainly by the women.

Back to the subject that is Prostitution.

We have talked more about the “demand” now we look at the “supply”.

How does a girl get started?

Most girls become prostitutes because they like it!

Don’t look so surprised!

Those B films showing white slavery and helpless virgins were big at the Saturday matinees, but the real life story is different.

It starts with run of the mill promiscuity, maybe a divorce or two, then a job in a night club, a waitress or a barmaid, freelance sex with customers on a small scale. The girl puts two and two together and finds it’s an easy way to make money. Poverty is a factor, but many a high class prostitute does it because she gets wined and dined without the washing up etc...

I said most girls become prostitutes because they like it but in prostitution nobody is really happy.

It’s a hard life.

Men want their tricks too.

Two girls, anal sex and all the sadism and masochistic things people do for kicks.
Of course most prostitutes don’t pay tax but sometimes they don’t get paid.
What happens to these women when their looks go and it is too late to “pull out?”
There are health risks for the women’s sex organs.

However on the flip side some prostitutes love to see men beg for it.

All prostitutes have at least one thing in common-they hate men.

The main reason I have not married any of the Thai girls, I spent time with.

How does one tell the difference here?

The full answer lies somewhere within an underlying emotional problem that drove them into the “game.”, but basically prostitution (and lesbianism) is an ironic form of revenge against all men.

“They think they are screwing me” said a prostitute but that is all wrong. “I am the one screwing them” “I put on a great show but I never feel a thing, not even from those “great lovers”.

So prostitutes don’t enjoy sex? Not with customers but they do with their boyfriends who sometimes become their pimps.

In every large city there are male prostitutes, but as they won’t perform intercourse with women I will pass on them, but remind you that women will perform on other women.

As their looks fade they take jobs in the porno industry or finish their career by coming full circle, working as a “mamasan” or working as barmaids and waitresses, which is probably the best way out for them too.

I hope you have enjoyed these words on Prostitution and will want to add your own comment. No names will be divulged.

References have been taken from so many places and added to my own work that they are too numerous to list but I apologise now if I have offended anyone else’s work.

Part of my work on www.rightsandwrongs.co.uk

Rubber Nursey

07-11-09, 16:01

Additionally RN lives in the most conservative part of Australia....
Yes, I do live in the most conservative state. It's also the state with the highest number of wh*res per capita and some of the highest paid wh*res in the country. Interesting, no? Conservatives = horny rich hypocrites. :)

I wasn't trying to explain the current high prices - only (my opinion on) why prices don't necessarily go DOWN after decriminalisation. Stigma also contributes to sex industry prices in other ways. Across the board in Australia, sex industry businesses pay around ten times more to advertise than any other business. Insurance companies charge at least seven times more to cover sex industry businesses (if they agree to cover them at all!) In WA, brothels and private workers pay obscene amounts in rent. Private workers often have to rent separate premises to work from, so they're paying rent on two houses. In some states, brothels and private workers have to pay licensing fees, two or three times higher than other business licenses. And most people really don't want to tick 'prostitute' on their tax form, so they can't take advantage of tax rebates for all those work expenses. Until people start treating sex businesses the same as other businesses, overheads alone will keep the prices high, even in a decriminalised environment.

Gfe Finder

07-11-09, 21:58

Jelly Donut

07-11-09, 22:28

First I should note that here in Buenos Aires, if you were to call the police, an ambulance, and a hooker at the exact same time, the hooker would undoubtedly arrive first, and do a much better job. ....

Despite crude anti-doughnutism in the 5th paragraph - it's clearly an insightful post and deserves an A+

Bango Cheito

07-14-09, 21:47

Illogic seems to have implied that I think mongering hasn't change me. I think it has made a POSITIVE change in me in fact. I'm much more knowledgeable about my own body and even MORE knowledgeable about women's bodies and the great variations in them. In short I'm a much more capable lover than I ever was before. You could be 100 years in a monogamous relationship but you'll never get that without sleeping with a variety of women.

I think it's the same thing for women... the more variety they have and the more sex they have in general, the better they are at it. Stands to reason, practise makes perfect.

But even beyond that, I think I have a much better understanding of human nature now than I did several years ago.

Warbucks

07-14-09, 21:59

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=40708

Warbucks

07-14-09, 22:10

In short I'm a much more capable lover than I ever was before. You could be 100 years in a monogamous relationship but you'll never get that without sleeping with a variety of women.

So you fuck yourself not masturbation but I mean literally fuck yourself? Now I know that is impossible. So maybe someone told you were a good lover. Prostitutes? I find it hard to believe anything they say.

I think it's the same thing for women... the more variety they have and the more sex they have in general, the better they are at it. Stands to reason, practise makes perfect. . Its man’s job to school a woman in “sexpertise.”I been in contact with a lovely Filipina who told me her last Filipino boyfriend said she didn’t know how to kiss. How this came out because she told she was a bad kisser. When I am done with her she probably won’t be saying these things.

But even beyond that, I think I have a much better understanding of human nature now than I did several years ago.
LOL. I think there are better ways to understand human nature.

Dickhead

07-14-09, 23:01

Illogic, you are just so illogical. But then I'm such a dickhead. You say, "lol I think there are better ways to understand human nature." That is such a weak statement. Can you give an example? You have such a complete double standard about mongering it's actually fairly humorous. It's obvious you are extremely conflicted about mongering.

But, I agree with BC on most points. I won't say that mongering has made me a better person but getting laid a lot makes me a better person. Sexually frustrated people are crabby and prone to blow-ups. Here if a woman is very crabby she is referred to as a "malco" which is short for malcogida or poorly fucked. One time in grad school one of the female TAs was unusually b!tchy and another female TA said, "What's the matter with her today?" I said, "She needs a horse cock" and several people were a bit shocked but that's what it is.

Better judge of human nature from mongering, definitely. Now perhaps this has more to do with associating with lower socioeconomic strata in general than with mongering in particular, but I think there are elements of both. I can't speak to being a better lover from mongering, because I had the advantages of being seduced by an older, experienced woman and then being married to a sex freak who would try anything. But, in general I understand women 1000% better now after fucking five hundred of them (so I am up to 3% understanding).

One important point is that through mongering, I have gotten to know women from so many different cultures. That in and of itself provides a better understanding of human nature. Yes, you can get to know people from many cultures by traveling, but not in the same depth. Of course, in order to do this, you have to value your hookers as human beings and not just as semen receptacles, and some people on this board can't seem to do that.

If it weren't for mongering I would never have spent a week in the small town of Chachapoyas, Perú, in the Amazon district, living under local conditions. You could say that the same thing could have happened under regular dating circumstances, but in reality it would not have. If a woman from Chachapoyas would have come to Buenos Aires for some other reason, which she would not have, the chance of me ever getting to know her would be minuscule.

If it weren't for mongering I never would have spent six weeks in Medellín, living in an apartment like a local. I could go on and on. I tell people I am pursuing an imaginary self-directed PhD in Latin American Sociology. I probably won't bother to write the dissertation but the field work has been very interesting and broadening. While it hasn't directly made be a better person as far as I know, it's made me a more tolerant and more interesting and more humble person and I'd say those are all good things.

But perhaps once Illogic has mongered for 37 years (if he chooses to continue to monger), he will have a different take on things. As BC says, "practice makes perfect."

Dickhead

07-14-09, 23:22

"Its [sic] man’s job to school a woman in 'sexpertise.'" I think you'll find that historically, in most cultures, the opposite has been the case. But, I'd love to hear your attempt at a logical explanation of why this assertion might be true.

Bango Cheito

07-15-09, 00:09

You know you're doing a good job in bed if the woman lubricates. If she floods the mattress you've done a GREAT job. It ain't exactly rocket science.

It's also a good clue in non-pro situations if she follows you around like a lost puppy afterwards. If she changes her phone number after having sex with you it's a good sign she's not down for a repeat :P

As far as I'm concerned sex workers are among the smartest most teacious and FEARLESS people I know, people who aren't afraid to step outside the boundaries. Those are the kind of people I want in my sphere. Normal people seem like a waste of oxygen to me.

As for it being a man's job to "school" a woman, that my friends is pure male chauvinism.

Dickhead

07-15-09, 01:21

I know one gal who said her ass lubricates when she is anally horny. I told her that was impossible because there are no Bartholins glands back there. She says well I don't know what those are but play with it for a while and check it out. Sure enough, it lubricated. I was like huh you learn something new every day. So she says, "Well?" and I say "Well what?" and she says, "Well, what are you going to do now?" Nothin' baby. That ain't my thang.

One problem can be that when you are screwing three or four women regularly plus a whole bunch of other strange here and there, sometimes you confuse what Mary likes with what Suzy likes and that really pisses 'em off. This is more true if Mary and Suzy know each other and even more true if Mary and Suzy have been in bed with you at the same time, and even MORE true if Mary and Suzy have gotten it on together.

But some women don't lubricate even when horny. I know one like that, too. One of her ovaries is dead even though she's only in her early 30s. We have to use lube, but she's definitely horny. She was on hormones to correct this but they made her "fat" (like she went from 98 pounds to 104) so she quit taken them. Stupid, but her mind is made up on the subject. I kinda like it for the eating her out part. It's a nice change and sometimes if I eat out a wet pussy I get little fissures at the corners of my mouth.

Bango Cheito

07-15-09, 05:59

Sometimes girls naturally don't lubricate much, if at all, but if she floods the room, you know you did something right :P Of course there are some girls who squirt with very little provocation but that's EXTREMELY rare.

That's a great story about the anal lube though, just when you think you've experienced it all....

Warbucks

07-15-09, 07:47

Illogic, you are just so illogical. But then I'm such a dickhead. You say, "lol I think there are better ways to understand human nature." That is such a weak statement. Can you give an example?

Wow! You guys have used this Illogical joke so much it is past boring. DH as I have stated here countless times. I have worked in one of the most dangerous countries on earth for over four years. I have met people from all over the world and from all walks of life. Lithiuanians, SE Indians, Poles, Japanese, Koreans, Turks, various ethic Afghanis, Uzbeks, Tajicks, this is not all but it will take me a whole page to name the rest.

I have looked into the eyes of the Taliban. I have spoken to the sheep herder who lives an existence reministic of a caveman. Only tending to his flock. This guy has never seen a computer or an IPod etc. This has given me a better understanding of human nature than paying some random prostitute/women to fuck me.

You have such a complete double standard about mongering it's actually fairly humorous. It's obvious you are extremely conflicted about mongering.

What is the double standard? What is humorous? That I find some aspects (not all) of prostitution disturbing. I am not conflicted about mongering. I like mongering if I did not I would stop. I use to smoke Marijuana but I stopped cold turkey back in 02’ after smoking since I was 13. I have been drug free every since. You are not talking to some weak willed individual mayne.

But, I agree with BC on most points. I won't say that mongering has made me a better person but getting laid a lot makes me a better person. Sexually frustrated people are crabby and prone to blow-ups.

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=757490&postcount=3353

Fuck you, fuck your dog, fuck the horse you rode in on. You post all over the place and it is never about pussy. My guess is you've never had any.

LOL. You remember this? You blew up but yet you always remind of us of how close you live to “Privados.” I am sure I was in at work at this time riding around bullet-proof vest, armored vehicle no pussy in sight while you was in Argentina maybe but who kept their cool?

I can't speak to being a better lover from mongering, because I had the advantages of being seduced by an older, experienced woman and then being married to a sex freak who would try anything. But, in general I understand women 1000% better now after fucking five hundred of them (so I am up to 3% understanding).

I don’t understand women and maybe never will. In your own words they are neurotic and every woman has different wants and needs. I find it comical that you would make such a statement that “I understand women better.” Also I find that prostitutes mentally are very different from normal women.

One important point is that through mongering, I have gotten to know women from so many different cultures. That in and of itself provides a better understanding of human nature. Yes, you can get to know people from many cultures by traveling, but not in the same depth. Of course, in order to do this, you have to value your hookers as human beings and not just as semen receptacles, and some people on this board can't seem to do that.

Again I have learned more just by talking to different people than by buying a woman for sex. In a sexually charged environment who is really interested in a cultural background etc.

Yes there are lot of guys that can’t bring themselves to treat WGs as an equal this is what about the business that disturbs me especially when mongering is carried out in the uneducated third world.

If it weren't for mongering I would never have spent a week in the small town of Chachapoyas, Perú, in the Amazon district, living under local conditions. You could say that the same thing could have happened under regular dating circumstances, but in reality it would not have. If a woman from Chachapoyas would have come to Buenos Aires for some other reason, which she would not have, the chance of me ever getting to know her would be minuscule.

If it weren't for mongering I never would have spent six weeks in Medellín, living in an apartment like a local. I could go on and on. I tell people I am pursuing an imaginary self-directed PhD in Latin American Sociology. I probably won't bother to write the dissertation but the field work has been very interesting and broadening. While it hasn't directly made be a better person as far as I know, it's made me a more tolerant and more interesting and more humble person and I'd say those are all good things. .

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=374328&postcount=16

I started mongering because of my job simple as that. I bought my first piece of pussy in Tashkent, Uzbekistan from a 5’9” Russian sitting by herself in a bar. I was one of the first posters on the Uzbekistan/Tashkent thread. Would I have become a monger if not for my job? Probably not. So we are reversed. It seemed you traveled just to monger and met people along the way. I traveled because of work and mongered along the way.

But perhaps once Illogic has mongered for 37 years (if he chooses to continue to monger), he will have a different take on things. As BC says, "practice makes perfect."

I don’t know DH I think the longevity of having been a monger or the number of women under your belt is nothing to brag about. Maybe I will monger until I am in the grave. Or maybe I will just get tired of the game who knows?

"Its [sic] man’s job to school a woman in 'sexpertise.'" I think you'll find that historically, in most cultures, the opposite has been the case. But, I'd love to hear your attempt at a logical explanation of why this assertion might be true.

http://uk.askmen.com/love/love_tip_300/376_love_tip.html

So you let a women lead you around the bedroom? LOL. Maybe you are into that Sadist dominatrix type shit :confused:

Sorry but I have found women to like a man to take charge in the bedroom at the same time being courteous. That’s why when I hear a lady say she can’t fuck or can’t kiss because some guy told her so I wonder why? I can see if it’s a one nighter but if you been around this women any length of time and she still can’t fuck then you need to take a look at yourself.

Could you please get some data or something to back up your statement? A pie graph or something I love pie graphs.

You know you're doing a good job in bed if the woman lubricates. If she floods the mattress you've done a GREAT job. It ain't exactly rocket science.

LOL. I have had girls soaking wet before I have even touched them. Some girls are just natural juice producers. Some are dry as a Afghani desert. Means nothing in most cases. Even DH just pointed this out to you.

It's also a good clue in non-pro situations if she follows you around like a lost puppy afterwards. If she changes her phone number after having sex with you it's a good sign she's not down for a repeat :P

I have had girls follow me around in PI even when I have not fucked them. Read my report from Feb PI Manila thread. LOL. Again means nothing.

As far as I'm concerned sex workers are among the smartest most teacious and FEARLESS people I know, people who aren't afraid to step outside the boundaries. Those are the kind of people I want in my sphere. Normal people seem like a waste of oxygen to me.

LOL. I guess soldiers and people who work in warzones for a living are cowards, dumb and a waste of oxygen.

Most sex workers I have encountered were plum stupid( had one girl ask me how could I be black and American) and I highly doubt if they were smart that would be in their profession of choice. The only intelligence they seem to show is scamming customers to pay a high price for the services :D

A sex worker is now a hero because they are not afraid to step outside the boundaries. LOL. People go against society norms all the time. The black guy who dyes his hair pink (Dennis Rodman) stepped out of the boundaries. Doesn’t make them no better or more courageous than anyone else. Everyone just chooses their own path bruh.

As for it being a man's job to "school" a woman, that my friends is pure male chauvinism.

On this forum I have been called a jewelry wearing braggart, a hypocrite, misogynistic, and now I am being accused of male chauvinism because I think man should school women in the arts of sex. Teach them what they like and ask them what they like. If this makes me a chauvinist then OK. :)

Rubber Nursey

07-15-09, 09:14

Maybe you're waiting on comment for me, but I can't. I'm too shocked and don't know where to start.

All I will say is, DH and Bango - everything you've said in your posts, *I* would say from the other side of the coin. I've learned soooo much about sex, culture, gender, etc from sex work. And yes, I believe it has made me a better person/lover.

To Illogic - anyone who says they 'bought their first pussy' (as opposed to first paid for sex, hired their first sex worker, paid their first woman, etc) quite obviously has an issue with sex workers and/or women. I worked as a hooker for a long time and - surprise surprise - my pussy is still exactly where I left it. I didn't 'sell my body' and nobody 'bought' my pussy. The sex I had with my clients was exactly the same as I've had with my lovers, only my clients paid cash for it.

Warbucks

07-15-09, 11:53

yes, I believe it has made me a better person/lover.

Lover part maybe. The better person part :confused:

To Illogic - anyone who says they 'bought their first pussy' (as opposed to first paid for sex, hired their first sex worker, paid their first woman, etc) quite obviously has an issue with sex workers and/or women. I worked as a hooker for a long time and - surprise surprise - my pussy is still exactly where I left it. I didn't 'sell my body' and nobody 'bought' my pussy. The sex I had with my clients was exactly the same as I've had with my lovers, only my clients paid cash for it.

RN ok you are right I should have said the first time I paid for sex that is the politically correct phrase to use.

I have friends who say that they will never pay for pussy or such this is just how "we" people in my circle talk. Turning the pussy into an object. It has no connotative tone expressing my hatred for women whatsoever.

I am sorry but I am laughing myself off the keyboard at this statement

The sex I had with my clients was exactly the same as I've had with my lovers, only my clients paid cash for it.

Dickhead

07-15-09, 16:52

Now Illogic is doing a better job of supporting his argument. I would think his experiences would lead to a better understanding of human nature. Although, I really don't want to go to any of those places.

But I didn't mean that the woman should dominate the man in the bedroom. I just mean traditionally in a lot of cultures an older woman teaches a younger man about sex. I don't have any pie charts but I think this is more common in more cultures than the reverse. Tahiti is an example that comes to mind.

Here, what's very common is your uncle takes you to a privado for your fifteenth or sixteenth birthday, and an experienced hooker guides you through your first experience which, of course, often involves premature ejaculation and other embarrassments that perhaps are best not experienced with a girlfriend.

My first lover was fifteen, almost sixteen, and I had just turned thirteen, and she was very patient and taught me a few things. She loved to pop cherries but of course she moved on after three sessions. As far as I know I have never been with a virgin and I never want to be.

Now the Morality of Working a War Zone When the War is Bullshit is probably another thread for another forum.

Rubber Nursey

07-15-09, 19:59

Lover part maybe. The better person part :confused:
It taught me patience and tolerance, exposed me to other cultures and gave me a better understanding of the men in my life, amongst other things. I think that makes me a better person?

And you're right, I over-reacted to you saying 'buying a piece of pussy'... although, considering what else you wrote in your post (hookers are dumb, hookers are 'mentally' different to other women, etc) a general lack of respect for sex workers was a pretty safe assumption to make. I tend to get a little snappy when people call me a deranged imbecile. :)

Warbucks

07-15-09, 21:00

It taught me patience and tolerance, exposed me to other cultures and gave me a better understanding of the men in my life, amongst other things. I think that makes me a better person?

And you're right, I over-reacted to you saying 'buying a piece of pussy'... although, considering what else you wrote in your post (hookers are dumb, hookers are 'mentally' different to other women, etc) a general lack of respect for sex workers was a pretty safe assumption to make. I tend to get a little snappy when people call me a deranged imbecile. :)

RN if you pay close attention I said most of the prostitutes I have encountered have been dumber than a box of rocks that does not mean all.

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=803488&postcount=1994

Hell I met a bar girl back in October 08’ who had a degree in Accounting. I knew something was up because her English was flawless and she was discussing things like racism, financial and social ills in the States way out of the norm for your run of the mill typical Pinay bar girl. She just said working the bar paid her more than an accounting job. I still regret not taking her home for the night to this day.

Hookers mentally are different than normal women. If a guy walks up to a normal woman with a fist full of Dollars, Pesos, Dirhims etc and say hey can you blow me and fuck me for a pre-determined amount? This might turn-out uglier than a pair of bowling shoes, with the requester being beaten sued, sexual harassment charge or fired. With a prostitute you don’t have worry about such matters.

Second thing about four weeks ago I picked up a bargirl and I asked couple questions like did she have baby, where is the boyfriend etc…She said no boyfriend. Boyfriends are trouble and if she needs sex she just go with a customer in the bars while getting paid for it.

Now is that a prostitute talking or what? :D

Dickhead

07-15-09, 21:16

Goga Fung

07-15-09, 21:54

Hookers mentally are different than normal women. If a guy walks up to a normal woman with a fist full of Dollars, Pesos, Dirhims etc and say hey can you blow me and fuck me for a pre-determined amount? This might turn-out uglier than a pair of bowling shoes, with the requester being beaten sued, sexual harassment charge or fired. With a prostitute you don’t have worry about such matters.Yeas they kinda different, they are more understanding:)

I actually often respect much more hookers(honest ones) than "normal' women. Often "normal' women use you and take advantage of you much more than hookers.

Prostitutes know what a man needs and what to do to make him happy. While many 'normal' woman demand that a man makes them happy, both sexually and materialistically.

In many cases also "normal" women are much dumber than prostitutes and do/say very stupid things.

One my friend says "The most honest woman is a prostitute".

So why would "normal" women be better than prostitutes?

In many cases they look worse, they demand more, more dishonest, do not know shit about fucking, they fuck mostly your brains, get upset or pissed easily(often to make you do more stuff for them) etc..

And one from Rodney Dangerfield, it looks like some people never heard this:

'A man approaches a beautiful woman in a bar, and without any small talk, asks her "If I give you a dollar will you sleep with me?" The woman is instantly angry and tells the man "Absolutely not!" Before she can get away from the man he asks her a second question. "Will you sleep with me for a million dollars?" Now the woman pauses and after some thought says "Yes, I will." The man responds "How about for twenty dollars?" Again the woman looks indignant and says "Of course not. What kind of a woman do you think I am?" The man replies "I thought we just settled that. I was just negotiating the price." '

Member #4214

07-16-09, 00:36

It taught me patience ...

The first thing a prostitute learns is ... patience. Now that is funny!

Rubber Nursey

07-16-09, 15:44

If a guy walks up to a normal woman with a fist full of Dollars, Pesos, Dirhims etc and say hey can you blow me and fuck me for a pre-determined amount? This might turn-out uglier than a pair of bowling shoes, with the requester being beaten sued, sexual harassment charge or fired. With a prostitute you don’t have worry about such matters.
LOL, Illogic! Could that be, just perhaps, because it's her JOB to accept money for sex? ;)

The first thing a prostitute learns is ... patience. Now that is funny!
Ever worked in customer service and had to smile and chat and be nice to every customer? It's hard to maintain, especially if you're in a bad mood or the customer is a complete a**hole. Well...imagine if you had to not only smile and be nice to that person for an hour or two (or more), but you also had to cuddle them, caress them, have sex with them and kiss them goodbye. Imagine listening to their entire life stories. Imagine having someone dictate your every move, every word, every position, down to the most minute detail, because he wants to get his fantasy just right. Imagine hearing the same patronising crap, every single day..."why is a girl like you doing this; you're too smart for this; you're better than this; you just need a nice man to look after you". Or worse, fending off clients who think they ARE that nice man!

I've always had a very quick temper, but sex work honestly taught me a lot about self-control and tolerance. Strange, but true. :)

Piper1

07-16-09, 16:02

... Imagine listening to their entire life stories. Imagine having someone dictate your every move, every word, every position, down to the most minute detail, because he wants to get his fantasy just right. Imagine hearing the same patronising crap, every single day..."why is a girl like you doing this; you're too smart for this; you're better than this; you just need a nice man to look after you". Or worse, fending off clients who think they ARE that nice man!Then ...
The sex I had with my clients was exactly the same as I've had with my loversDamn RN, you've had some high-maintenance boyfriends! ;)
__________

Illogic - Do you have nothing else to do but dodge bombs and bullets in Afghanistan and stir up ISG members? Get thee back to Dubai and get laid young man!

Rubber Nursey

07-16-09, 16:16

LOL, Piper. :P That sex with boyfriends thing was very badly articulated. I would have removed it, except everyone started quoting me before I had the chance! What I meant was that the sex I had at work was just the same as regular sex - that is, it didn't leave me damaged or different or somehow less 'whole', just because I was paid for it. Sex is just sex.

But now that you mention it, there ARE some depressing similarities between high-maintenance clients and many of my ex boyfriends.... ;)

Gedanken

07-21-09, 01:37

You've changed your name, Illogic! Good to see you still fighting the good fight, and steering clear of self-deception and lazy logic.

I guess I am insecure because I would never accept a woman who has slept with a lot of men. I just wouldn't want a relationship with a woman who gives out the pussy like government cheese.Ditto, though I think context for me would depend. Despite the reams of denials to the contrary here, you and I both know the women we use don't like their 'work' (I'm excluding rich world girls making megabucks here). On a per capita basis, just compare how many American girls enter prostitution there are compared to Thai ones. How many semi-pros are there in England compared to Ghana? Do semi-pros even exist in rich countries?? Poverty forces girls to make a terrible decision: sell myself, or live my life struggling to survive? The only reason 99% of girls do this work is because they are poor. Simple as, I don't delude myself otherwise, though of course I take full advantage to fuck hot girls at low cost. This said, I wouldn't actually have a problem marrying a former working-girl because I know that though she's had a lot of sex, she's not really enjoyed it. A silly rich-world **** who spreads like peanut butter is a no-no. Just my personal opinion, as always.

Before I started mongering all I wanted was a woman to call my own a wife (had one of those already) a house in the suburbs and kids. The American dream. Now all I want is the Nacirema dream. Nothing but endless supplies of young, fresh nubile women to fuck. I have become insatiable sex wise and women wise.

I was always insatiable sex wise but before I didn't want to change women like socks. I was content with one woman. This is no longer the case.You took the words out of my mouth. The more women I fuck, the more women I want to fuck. It's crazy, though I'm sure there's a rational explanation.

I started off in my early twenties wanting a wife, kid etc. - but then after I'd had a few average-looking girlfriends, I was curious what hot girls are like... So I started paying to fuck hot women... and it's a slippery slope thereafter! After I'd seen a dozen girls, I already realised my life was on a different course, and that wife and kids just wouldn't happen.

For me now, there's no going back because of the simple fact that mongering does change you - and change you for the worse. I'm a harder man these days because I've had to close down the caring side to me to enable me to live with what I've done and continue to enjoy it. Don't get me wrong, I've only shut down as much of the caring side as I've needed to, I'm not some sort of psycho doing anything I god-damn please. It's just that I'm not as caring as I used to be, you know? I just can't see me making a marriage last when I've had to change myself for the worse in such a way.

Are the effects of mongering a price worth paying? Well, I guess you can't clone yourself and then run an experiment - one clone mongering, the other living a normal life - and then compare the two lives at the end. I guess it's a pointless question then. At the very least, my lifestyle is uncommon and requires a peculiar sort of strength to carry out. When I look back as an old man, I can't say I'll be proud of my life, but at least I'll have had the courage to go my own way.

The way I see it sometimes, in two-hundred years' time I'll be dead, the girls I've fucked will be dead, everyone on this forum will be dead, and no one will give a shit. Nothing will remain, not even a memory. Does anyone give a shit about the guys who saw prostitutes back in the eighteenth century, or the prostitutes themselves? Does anyone give a shit about ANYONE who lived in the eighteenth century?? Nope, indeed I don't even know who 99% of them are. That's maybe a callous way to look at human life, but from time to time that's the way I feel I need to look at it. If I wasn't a convinced atheist there's no way I would be mongering ;D

All these guys talking about they are the same since they became a monger... I just love the denial that is so prevalent on this forum.Yeah, I agree, lots of denial, though I don't mean that as a harsh criticism. I don't think denial is good, cos it opens the door to reall horror, but it's inevitable for a good number of guys to need to use denial as a defence mechanism.

It's pretty remarkable after you start mongering how everything which was normal before you started, everything that is normal for everyone else who's never mongered, becomes completely abnormal and second-rate. Likewise, the extraordinary becomes the routine.

I do wonder sometimes what it's like to go through life like my grandparents did, to just have one partner your whole life. Sometimes I regret my choice to monger rather than concentrate on building a quality, long-term relationship - but then I just look at a hot girl and my dick takes charge. No, there's no going back for me now! Life's too short for regrets.

I'm off to West Africa before long, Illogic. I'm enjoying winking at all the hot Black girls I see about town now, and watching them shun me with disgust. Before too long, those hot Black girls won't be looking at me with disgust, but with lust! Here's to being from a rich country! Watch out for my first report, with photos!

Warbucks

07-21-09, 07:35

You've changed your name, Illogic! Good to see you still fighting the good fight, and steering clear of self-deception and lazy logic.

I'm off to West Africa before long, Illogic. I'm enjoying winking at all the hot Black girls I see about town now, and watching them shun me with disgust. Before too long, those hot Black girls won't be looking at me with disgust, but with lust! Here's to being from a rich country! Watch out for my first report, with photos!

All I can say is thank you man. Yeah I will be changing back to Warbucks as it had a nice ring to it and it fits me. Good luck on the trip. At any rate I don’t know why these guys just won’t knock it off with the bullshit. (Mongering improved me, I am not a sex addict blah blah.)

Illogic - Do you have nothing else to do but dodge bombs and bullets in Afghanistan and stir up ISG members? Get thee back to Dubai and get laid young man!

Pipe I have never been any danger whatsoever since I have been working in ME. I am under constant threat of dying of boredom though which why I post so much. As for bombs and bullets, in my contrastingly rich/poor American city I have had guns and other weapons brandished my way by racist/overzealous police and street gangs etc….

LOL, Piper. :P That sex with boyfriends thing was very badly articulated. I would have removed it, except everyone started quoting me before I had the chance! What I meant was that the sex I had at work was just the same as regular sex - that is, it didn't leave me damaged or different or somehow less 'whole', just because I was paid for it. Sex is just sex.

RN you are a first world woman so you was not always this nonchalant about sex at least I think, so what was it that gave you this attitude what changed you? Clearly this is not the thought process of the community at large.

Sex is just sex?

I don’t fuck prostitutes like I would a GF and I would love to hear if any of the married mongers do? There are precautions and restraints once must adhere to. For example condom with WG. No condom with GF. Beat the pussy like it stole it something with WG girl because you want to get your money worth your on "rented time." This is not a problem with a GF. No kissing WGs at least not me. So you see sex is not just sex. Some sex is based on a mutual understanding, respect etc... feelings other sex is purely a financial transaction.

But now that you mention it, there ARE some depressing similarities between high-maintenance clients and many of my ex boyfriends.... ;)
Please expound.

Yellow Fever #2

07-21-09, 08:58

You took the words out of my mouth. The more women I fuck, the more women I want to fuck. It's crazy, though I'm sure there's a rational explanation.

I started off in my early twenties wanting a wife, kid etc. - but then after I'd had a few average-looking girlfriends, I was curious what hot girls are like... So I started paying to fuck hot women... and it's a slippery slope thereafter! After I'd seen a dozen girls, I already realised my life was on a different course, and that wife and kids just wouldn't happen.

For me now, there's no going back because of the simple fact that mongering does change you - and change you for the worse. I'm a harder man these days because I've had to close down the caring side to me to enable me to live with what I've done and continue to enjoy it. Don't get me wrong, I've only shut down as much of the caring side as I've needed to, I'm not some sort of psycho doing anything I god-damn please. It's just that I'm not as caring as I used to be, you know? I just can't see me making a marriage last when I've had to change myself for the worse in such a way.

Are the effects of mongering a price worth paying? Well, I guess you can't clone yourself and then run an experiment - one clone mongering, the other living a normal life - and then compare the two lives at the end. I guess it's a pointless question then. At the very least, my lifestyle is uncommon and requires a peculiar sort of strength to carry out. When I look back as an old man, I can't say I'll be proud of my life, but at least I'll have had the courage to go my own way.

The way I see it sometimes, in two-hundred years' time I'll be dead, the girls I've fucked will be dead, everyone on this forum will be dead, and no one will give a shit. Nothing will remain, not even a memory. Does anyone give a shit about the guys who saw prostitutes back in the eighteenth century, or the prostitutes themselves? Does anyone give a shit about ANYONE who lived in the eighteenth century?? Nope, indeed I don't even know who 99% of them are. That's maybe a callous way to look at human life, but from time to time that's the way I feel I need to look at it. If I wasn't a convinced atheist there's no way I would be mongering ;D

Yeah, I agree, lots of denial, though I don't mean that as a harsh criticism. I don't think denial is good, cos it opens the door to reall horror, but it's inevitable for a good number of guys to need to use denial as a defence mechanism.

It's pretty remarkable after you start mongering how everything which was normal before you started, everything that is normal for everyone else who's never mongered, becomes completely abnormal and second-rate. Likewise, the extraordinary becomes the routine.

I do wonder sometimes what it's like to go through life like my grandparents did, to just have one partner your whole life. Sometimes I regret my choice to monger rather than concentrate on building a quality, long-term relationship - but then I just look at a hot girl and my dick takes charge. No, there's no going back for me now! Life's too short for regrets.

I'm off to West Africa before long, Illogic. I'm enjoying winking at all the hot Black girls I see about town now, and watching them shun me with disgust. Before too long, those hot Black girls won't be looking at me with disgust, but with lust! Here's to being from a rich country! Watch out for my first report, with photos!

Although I don't have even the slightest tinge of Jungle fever, I agree with everything you have written. Well said.

Unfortunately (fortunately?), I've become a hardened monger too. I really don't think I can be successful in a(nother) marriage. Even many girls want to have a relationship with me, I am just not ready and probably never will be. I don't want to break any more hearts. Life is too short, live free and be happy.

It is cheaper, more fun and interesting to rent rather than to own.

Yellow Fever #2

07-21-09, 09:04

Sex is just sex?

I don’t fuck prostitutes like I would a GF and I would love to hear if any of the married mongers do? There are precautions and restraints once must adhere. For example condom with WG. No condom with GF. Beat the pussy like it stole it something with WG girl because you want to get your money worth your on "rented time." This is not a problem with a GF. No kissing WGs at least not me. So you see sex is not just sex. Some sex is based on a mutual understanding, respect etc... feelings other sex is purely a financial transaction.

Please expound.

I don't consider sex a financial transaction, even if I pay for it. I get lots of free pussy.

I try my best to treat a WG as my GF. My goal is to make her happy, if I can make her happy, I will be happy too. I've had only great experiences this way. It is a wonderful thing to get reference sex, when her friends want to try you too.

That being said, sometimes I pick up so dubious girls that honestly I should not have taken. In those cases, I just can't get it hard and the whole point is moot. I'll still pay them as agreed to meet my side of the bargain.

Chocha Monger

07-21-09, 09:42

I decided that the whole marriage economic slave package was not for me after a few years in the military. I saw how military wives used the regulations and the commanders to keep their husbands in line. These women treated these guys like kids and always ran to tell daddy (the commander) if these guys were being bad. Being bad could mean a suspected affair or not giving them as much money as they thought that they were entitled to. In the military a wife can break a man's career. If she got traffic tickets or wrote bad checks the guy was likely to get pulled on the carpet since he was the sponsor. I thought it was foolish for a man to allow a woman to have that much control over his life.

Later on I realized that it wasn't just the military but American law at large opened a married man up to a host of liabilities. These liabilities went beyond child support and alimony. Some states allowed a man's property to be attached if his wife was sued for debts or causing injury to a third party. The whole thing was just unpalatable, a very raw deal. Then one day I discovered the hobby by accident. I never thought the same about relationships again. There is something quite liberating about being able to bang a 9.5/10 chick without having to cater to her whims. Knowing that I can have access to that for a pittance pretty much knocked pussy off its pedestal as far as I was concerned. The result is that I now hold women to the same standards as men when it comes to work, the law or anything else. I guess you could say that the hobby has made me more egalitarian.

Rubber Nursey

07-21-09, 10:34

RN you are a first world women so you was not always this nonchalant about sex at least I think so what was it that gave you this attitude what changed you? Clearly this is not the thought process of the community at large.
I'm not sure what you mean...are you saying that as a 'first world woman', I should have inherently negative views about sex? LOL Nothing changed me. I was never uptight and precious about sex in the first place. I've always enjoyed sex for what it is - whether it's for payment, for fun, or for love.

Sex is just sex? I don’t fuck prostitutes like I would a GF..... So you see sex is not just sex. Some sex is based on a mutual understanding, respect etc... feelings other sex is purely a financial transaction.
You're talking about emotions and feelings attached to sex. I'm talking purely about the physical aspects - penis in vagina, tongue in mouth, skin on skin, orgasm, etc. Sex means different things at different times and with different people, but it's still sex.

Please expound.
??? Some of my ex boyfriends have been needy and/or dominating and/or sucked the (emotional) life outta me. That's why they're exes! That's all. No big mystery.

Frannie

07-21-09, 15:09

For me now, there's no going back because of the simple fact that mongering does change you - and change you for the worse. I'm a harder man these days because I've had to close down the caring side to me to enable me to live with what I've done and continue to enjoy it. Don't get me wrong, I've only shut down as much of the caring side as I've needed to, I'm not some sort of psycho doing anything I god-damn please. It's just that I'm not as caring as I used to be, you know? I just can't see me making a marriage last when I've had to change myself for the worse in such a way.

Are the effects of mongering a price worth paying? Well, I guess you can't clone yourself and then run an experiment - one clone mongering, the other living a normal life - and then compare the two lives at the end. I guess it's a pointless question then. At the very least, my lifestyle is uncommon and requires a peculiar sort of strength to carry out. When I look back as an old man, I can't say I'll be proud of my life, but at least I'll have had the courage to go my own way.

The way I see it sometimes, in two-hundred years' time I'll be dead, the girls I've fucked will be dead, everyone on this forum will be dead, and no one will give a shit. Nothing will remain, not even a memory. Does anyone give a shit about the guys who saw prostitutes back in the eighteenth century, or the prostitutes themselves? Does anyone give a shit about ANYONE who lived in the eighteenth century?? Nope, indeed I don't even know who 99% of them are. That's maybe a callous way to look at human life, but from time to time that's the way I feel I need to look at it. If I wasn't a convinced atheist there's no way I would be mongering ;D

Yeah, I agree, lots of denial, though I don't mean that as a harsh criticism. I don't think denial is good, cos it opens the door to reall horror, but it's inevitable for a good number of guys to need to use denial as a defence mechanism.

It's pretty remarkable after you start mongering how everything which was normal before you started, everything that is normal for everyone else who's never mongered, becomes completely abnormal and second-rate. Likewise, the extraordinary becomes the routine.

I do wonder sometimes what it's like to go through life like my grandparents did, to just have one partner your whole life. Sometimes I regret my choice to monger rather than concentrate on building a quality, long-term relationship - but then I just look at a hot girl and my dick takes charge. No, there's no going back for me now! Life's too short for regrets.

One of the best posts I have seen on this board, or on the subject in general.

I have a similar outlook. You are in an airplane thousands of feet in the air, and layed out below you is a city teeming with people--only at this point you can't even see them, because they are miniscule as ants. And you think God is watching the sex life of billions of individuals and passing judgement? No, our sex lives are no more significant in the grand scheme of things than the sex lives of the fire ants in my back yard.

Mongering has changed me, and for the better, and I am not ashamed of that, and even if I cannot discuss it with most of the people I meet in my work and daily life, I know that it affects all my relationships. Mostly I feel sorry for the other guys and impervious to the manipulative wiles of the women. I am very popular with women and can get attractive, younger girlfriends if I want, but I don't want to get into relationships based on delusory and temporary affection governed by lust, that will inevitably turn to dross over a period of time.

Gedanken

07-22-09, 00:50

One of the best posts I have seen on this board, or on the subject in general.

I have a similar outlook. You are in an airplane thousands of feet in the air, and layed out below you is a city teeming with people--only at this point you can't even see them, because they are miniscule as ants. And you think God is watching the sex life of billions of individuals and passing judgement? No, our sex lives are no more significant in the grand scheme of things than the sex lives of the fire ants in my back yard.Thank you for your kind words, Frannie. Yeah, I like to take a more philosophical slant to mongering too. Like yourself I imagine all the girls I'll meet whilst I'm circling before landing, somewhere far below. Even as I sit here now the girls I'm going to fuck in Ghana are busy doing whatever - I wonder who they are...

And I agree: each of us has to accept that eventually we will die, and this world will carry on just fine without us. That sounds harsh, but it's true for everyone who ever lives, so I don't lose any sleep over it. I think it's good to value human life whilst accepting the things humans do aren't of any eternal significance. Even if human beings don't kill themselves off with climate change or nuclear war (which is looking decidedly unlikely, to be honest), it will still be the case that one day, far, far into the future, the conditions for any life at all will still become impossible.

But again: what do I care? We're all in the same boat: me, you, the girls we fuck, Barack Obama, the richest man on earth, the babies who are being born as you read these words...

Anyway, the point is I don't think mongering is something to regret as some kind of 'eternal crime'. Plus it's ALWAYS good to keep in mind that famous human delusion called the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. If I were married with kids, I'd get one set of good experiences and miss out on others; if I continue to monger, I get to fuck really hot women on a regular basis but miss out on being a Dad. I consciously choose the latter, and I'm man enough to live with the choices I make.

The grass is always greener, never forget that!

Although I don't have even the slightest tinge of Jungle fever, I agree with everything you have written. Well said.

Unfortunately (fortunately?), I've become a hardened monger too. I really don't think I can be successful in a(nother) marriage. Even many girls want to have a relationship with me, I am just not ready and probably never will be. I don't want to break any more hearts. Life is too short, live free and be happy.

It is cheaper, more fun and interesting to rent rather than to own.Again, thanks for your kind words. It's interesting to hear from a guy who looks at things the same way I do. If I stopped mongering right now, with time I could surely 'recover' and get married. But you'll notice that word 'if'; I am not going to 'recover' because I fully intend to do this for the rest of my life and don't regard the plus sides to marriage as worth it. Just my personal opinion, which I'm perfectly entitled to.

I'm sure at some point I'll naturally start to desire a long-term relationship, rather than continue with endless mongering, but as I said above, I'll simply remind myself that the grass is always greener.

Besides, if I want to taste a loving relationship I merely need to find a girl who likes me in whatever country and who's after a husband, then go with her for a little while. Trouble is, before long, my dick would be demanding to add to the tally of smoking-hot girls and I'll end the relationship. I know that's callously using a girl to steady my nerves, but is that really any worse than paying to fuck her like a piece of meat? Hardly, she'll get over me soon enough and meet someone else.

Life's too short for regrets; the grass is always greener. I think those two principles will serve me well enough during my mongering career!

The wine's starting to kick in, so I'll leave you with the words of a Christian intellectual of yesteryear which I think sum up the human condition brilliantly:

Look at the universe we live in. By far the greatest part of it consists of empty space, completely dark and unimaginably cold. The bodies which move in this space are so few and so small in comparison with the space itself that even if every one of them were known to be crowded as full as it could hold with perfectly happy creatures, it would still be difficult to believe that life and happiness were more than a byproduct to the power that made the universe.

As it is, however, the scientists think it likely that very few of the suns of space — perhaps none of them except our own — have any planets; and in our own system it is improbable that any planet except the Earth sustains life. And Earth herself existed without life for millions of years and may exist for millions more when life has left her.

And what is it like while it lasts? It is so arranged that all the forms of it can live only by preying upon one another. In the lower forms this process entails only death, but in the higher there appears a new quality called consciousness which enables it to be attended with pain. The creatures cause pain by being born, and live by inflicting pain, and in pain they mostly die.

In the most complex of all the creatures, Man, yet another quality appears, which we call reason, whereby he is enabled to foresee his own pain which henceforth is preceded with acute mental suffering, and to foresee his own death while keenly desiring permanence. It also enables men by a hundred ingenious contrivances to inflict a great deal more pain than they otherwise could have done on one another and on the irrational creatures.

This power they have exploited to the full. Their history is largely a record of crime, war, disease, and terror, with just sufficient happiness interposed to give them, while it lasts, an agonised apprehension of losing it, and, when it is lost, the poignant misery of remembering. Every now and then they improve their condition a little and what we call a civilisation appears. But all civilisations pass away and, even while they remain, inflict peculiar sufferings of their own probably sufficient to outweigh what alleviations they may have brought to the normal pains of man. That our own civilisation has done so, no one will dispute; that it will pass away like all its predecessors is surely probable.

Even if it should not, what then? The race is doomed. Every race that comes into being in any part of the universe is doomed; for the universe, they tell us, is running down, and will sometime be a uniform infinity of homogeneous matter at a low temperature. All stories will come to nothing: all life will turn out in the end to have been a transitory and senseless contortion upon the idiotic face of infinite matter.

If you ask me to believe that this is the work of a benevolent and omnipotent spirit, I reply that all the evidence points in the opposite direction. Either there is no spirit behind the universe, or else a spirit indifferent to good and evil, or else an evil spirit.

Raptor 09

07-22-09, 11:03

It is cheaper, more fun and interesting to rent rather than to own.

I agree, but I personally like the combination of both ways.

After spending quite a bit of time mongering in the past years (I think my track is now @ about 250 girls), I have a hard time to envision going back to a normal life without renting girls twice-a-month.

Yes, I do have a nice, caring, average looking girlfriend at home and it is a happy relationship. However our ideas of sex are not fully matching. She is now coming to age (42) and I am always tempted by younger girls (18y-22y).

I do not want to split at all, because life is fun when I am at home (I am travelling a lot), but I continue to play with the devil side while I am away.

The combination of being at home (friendly environment) and abroad (lustful environment) works pretty fine for me. I hope this stays for quite a bit of time like that.

Raptor

Dickhead

07-22-09, 15:54

"Beat the pussy like it stole it something" is pretty indicative of IL/DW's double-standard and obvious problems with mongering.

But becoming "impervious to the manipulative wiles of ... women," now that has a lot to do with why I personally monger. Women have no power over me any more, and I'm very happy about that.

Gentleman Travel

07-22-09, 18:32

I agree, but I personally like the combination of both ways.

After spending quite a bit of time mongering in the past years (I think my track is now @ about 250 girls), I have a hard time to envision going back to a normal life without renting girls twice-a-month.

Yes, I do have a nice, caring, average looking girlfriend at home and it is a happy relationship. However our ideas of sex are not fully matching. She is now coming to age (42) and I am always tempted by younger girls (18y-22y).

I do not want to split at all, because life is fun when I am at home (I am travelling a lot), but I continue to play with the devil side while I am away.

The combination of being at home (friendly environment) and abroad (lustful environment) works pretty fine for me. I hope this stays for quite a bit of time like that.

Raptor
I'm with you 100%.
Even when my wife is not putting out the way I would like,
I am still getting it say 2-3 times per week, every week, all year.
Then I get to party (or try to) whenever I travel. Best of both worlds.

Of course, I would be able to monger more if I was not married, but the
pickings are so slim in my city that it would be tough to beat the comforts of home.

The other downside is if she finds out, then the whole structure comes down.
But I reconciled myself with that some time ago and am prepared to defend my choices and freedom.

But the idea of only having sex while away at a mongering destination, or when I am prepared to drop $200-300 per poke, seems awfully bleak...

Dickhead

07-22-09, 19:44

Yeah, if I were paying $200-$300 per poke, that would be pretty bleak. Today I chose one of my $26 options. Other days I choose one of my $21 options. Occasionally I also like my $45 TLN option but not more than once a week.

Morally, since I moved from a wealthy neighborhood to the exact geographic center of hookers ten days ago, I face a lot of these decisions. I suppose I could try the $18 option that is a block away. The women there are old friends of mine. But, after knowing them for almost seven years, the problem is they are too old.

The $39 "off-peak" package of a drink, professional massage, BBJ, sex, and shower is also a fine value, but only available 10P-10A. 10A-10P this is $52 which is not going to happen. www.gysell.com; she advertises in the Argentina forum.

I believe paying less is the more moral thing for me to do, because I am going to spend the same amount monthly in pursuit of the hobby. Therefore, by paying less, I pay more. More chicas, that is. My goal is to do the greatest good for the greatest number. It's altruism in its purest and most moral form. That's particularly true when in any given week I can stimulate the economies of not just Argentina, but Perú. Colombia, Uruguay, and especially Paraguay. My mongering alone probably comprises 2% of Paraguay's GDP.

The favorita did have to do the walk of shame up Suipacha past all the hooker bars last week, and was worried about me becoming a bit too altruistic living in such close proximity. I explained to her that although there were indeed a lot of hooker bars in the neighborhood, she didn't need to worry about them since there were also so many streetwalkers and privados in the neighborhood. Strangely, this did seem to re-assure her.

Piper1

07-23-09, 05:42

"Beat the pussy like it stole it something" is pretty indicative of IL's double-standard and obvious problems with mongering.

Dickhead - that's Afro-American English for "I like to please my woman". Sounds scary to old white men, but it's why girls like young black men. ;)

Women have no power over me any more, and I'm very happy about that.I don't understand why women have power over you. Are you scared of women? That's sad. Personally, I like women.

Warbucks

07-23-09, 08:03

Dickhead - that's Afro-American English for "I like to please my woman". Sounds scary to old white men, but it's why girls like young black men. ;)
I have not seen an Afro in years. Well at least since Bone Thugs in Harmony. Don’t know if you being sarcastic or serious with your last comment but I think Opebo is an old white guy and we all know how he and few others treat the hired help.

"Beat the pussy like it stole it something" is pretty indicative of IL/DW's double-standard and obvious problems with mongering.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beat%20it%20out%20the%20frame

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beat%20it%20up

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beat%20it%20like%20a%20cop

DH it simply means to fuck, long and hard, touch the cervix all the while being cordial and pleasing the woman. I don’t know how this is indicative of my problems with mongering could you explain?

"But becoming "impervious to the manipulative wiles of ... women," now that has a lot to do with why I personally monger. Women have no power over me any more, and I'm very happy about that.
Women should not have power over you anyway whether you are single or married. You are a man.

Piper1

07-23-09, 19:36

DH it simply means to fuck, long and hard, touch the cervix all the while being cordial and pleasing the woman. See, I told ya so. Damn, why do I always have to be right?

Dickhead

07-23-09, 21:11

Chocha Monger

07-23-09, 21:30

I was unaware of that bit of urban lexicon but I don't think I'd be comfortable using it, myself. Not afraid of women. But, they had sexual power over me, when I wasn't mongering. That led to making some decisions with my dick that should have been made with my brain, a couple of times. Things like live in City A vs. City B, take job A vs. job B, go to school A vs. (much better) school B (I did that for sure), for reasons of pussy. I'm thinkin' I'm not the only one out here who's done that kind of shit.
Guilty as charged! lol That is very common in the USA. It all has to do with how we were socialized and American women's mastery of, "Honey if you love me you'll do A instead of B so we can be together." Now my attitude is more along the lines of Nightrider's girlfriend. I try to save my virginity for that special someone but I constantly find myself waking up in hotels in some foreign country with my cock up some cute stranger's pussy without a clue as to how it ever got there. But I always give the stranger some money and forget to report the incident to the authorities. I don't think that they'll believe me anyway.

Warbucks

07-24-09, 03:51

I was unaware of that bit of urban lexicon but I don't think I'd be comfortable using it, myself. Not afraid of women. But, they had sexual power over me, when I wasn't mongering. That led to making some decisions with my dick that should have been made with my brain, a couple of times. Things like live in City A vs. City B, take job A vs. job B, go to school A vs. (much better) school B (I did that for sure), for reasons of pussy. I'm thinkin' I'm not the only one out here who's done that kind of shit.

DH as Michael Jackson once said you are not alone. I did a lot of shit and put up with a lot of shit because of my Ex but did you do that because of sex or did you do that because you loved and cared about them? Now a lot of guys have moved overseas and put up with all the calamities of living in a foreign country for sex only which I think is madness.

ThatGuy865

07-24-09, 13:01

Goga Fung

07-24-09, 21:33

DH as Michael Jackson once said you are not alone. I did a lot of shit and put up with a lot of shit because of my Ex but did you do that because of sex or did you do that because you loved and cared about them? Now a lot of guys have moved overseas and put up with all the calamities of living in a foreign country for sex only which I think is madness.
You have just summed up a lot of guys on this forum who move/vacation from 1st world luxury to 3rd world inadequacies. Strictly chasing the all mighty pussy. It can be just as strong as any drug.I guess I understand what you are saying, but what is wrong to move to another country?

Do you say that USA is 1st World luxury? It's only for somebody, sometimes, in some places. Mostly its only overall impression.

Many so-called "3rd" world countries can be much more luxurious than USA. For example, many if not most bars/clubs in USA look like shitholes with trashy people and music. If you compare to night clubs in Eastern Europe and South America, USA looks like 5th world country.

Anyway, what is wrong if a person prefers to have access to a lot of girls (who are also more beautiful and friendlier), so he chooses a "3rld World" country for that. Instead of staying home where the only choice he's got to work hard, eat a lot, watch TV, getting sick, maybe have a buttugly gf, getting pissed, go to doctors, and work even more to pay for his bills. For me it looks insane to be like that.

So some people chose all this materialistic crap and stay safe in "1st world". And some prefer to be able spend time with women in the "3rld world"

Dickhead

07-25-09, 01:13

Warbucks

07-25-09, 16:09

I was in love with my wife but I refused to move with her. I did once for a school term but then I left her there and she came back. The others were after and I was not getting enough pussy so when I did, it made me loco. I wasn't in love with the ones I did the stupid shit for. So, it was for pussy.

DH was in love. I find that amazing :D Woman must have been a damn Superhero :D I can honestly say I have never done crazy stuff for pussy “with a woman I was in a relationship with.” If I was in a relationship with a woman then it meant that I cared for them above and beyond pussy.

A few inconveniences living here but no "calamities." It must really suck where you are, IL. You just did that for the money.

The word calamities I learned from a Filipina in Dubai while discussing running a business in PI. It is too strong of a word to use in this situation yes? I think your word inconvenience is appropriate. Actually I live a life some would call a dream back in the West. Sex on demand from various young women. Personal drivers, a maid etc.

While the Philippines itself is still struggling to pull itself up from the Third world image… no it does not suck.

I didn’t move here for money. Actually I was living in Japan when I moved out to PI. Some things came up I found myself in PI and just said fuck it and chilled. The US was out the door for me. I was having too much fun on this side of the planet.

You never fail to point out how racist your adopted country is? Why would you want to live around people like this? I am thinking of dropping in just to see what the fuck is up. I am wondering maybe I will be treated like 1800s US. It’s fucking 2009. I know some brothers have been down there already. We are not new anywhere.

You probably figure you'll do it for a few years and save up a bunch of money.

Oh yes I am saving a ton of money by living in PI on taxes, goods, pussy and other random things.

But even though women are the number one reason I'm here, there are a lot of other reasons.
The woman are a big reason I decided to stay in PI as I was thinking about leaving but they are not reason I moved here.

I think most guys who move to a country just for the pussy will not be happy.

Agreed.

I like the pussy here much more than the pussy in the US but I also like most other things here much more. Some guys come here for pussy and try to avoid other aspects of the culture but I've immersed myself in the culture since day one, not just the pussy.

I honestly must say besides the low cost of living, beaches and the pussy for me there isn’t much to like. :(

I guess I understand what you are saying, but what is wrong to move to another country?
Nothing.

Do you say that USA is 1st World luxury? It's only for somebody, sometimes, in some places. Mostly its only overall impression.
Come on man you cannot compare the infrastructure and services in the US to a third world country. As Mike Tyson would say it’s ludicrous.

Anyway, what is wrong if a person prefers to have access to a lot of girls (who are also more beautiful and friendlier), so he chooses a "3rld World" country for that. Instead of staying home where the only choice he's got to work hard, eat a lot, watch TV, getting sick, maybe have a buttugly gf, getting pissed, go to doctors, and work even more to pay for his bills. For me it looks insane to be like that.
I am saying you need to have something more than pussy to sustain you in another country. You can’t live off pussy alone. I have been fucking bar girls like 90 (mph) going north but now since I have started meeting girls who are worlds away from that lifestyle I am starting to feel better about the place.

So some people chose all this materialistic crap and stay safe in "1st world". And some prefer to be able spend time with women in the "3rld world"
Third world women for reasons of socioeconomic factors, lack of education are nothing but the least path of resistance.

ThatGuy865

07-26-09, 01:53

I guess I understand what you are saying, but what is wrong to move to another country?

Do you say that USA is 1st World luxury? It's only for somebody, sometimes, in some places. Mostly its only overall impression.

Many so-called "3rd" world countries can be much more luxurious than USA. For example, many if not most bars/clubs in USA look like shitholes with trashy people and music. If you compare to night clubs in Eastern Europe and South America, USA looks like 5th world country."A countries standard is not based upon its bars/clubs. And there isn't a place in this world that can compare to Las Vegas. So it makes all you stated look like shitholes.

But forget clubs. You tell where you can go to the poor neighborhood in a country and find Big screen HD TV's in just about everyone's house, a car in every drive way, if not 2 cars. Decent housing, clean running water.

This in the POOR neighborhoods. I don't even have to talk about the rich. US poor can stand up against most 3rd world middle class and even in some other 1st world countries.

Now I didn't pass judgement on a person moving to another country. I only noted how desireable pussy must be to make a person leave these luxuries. I never said it was a good or bad thing to do. You must feel like its not the best thing to do being you are so defensive about the comment.

DirkDingy

07-31-09, 06:22

A countries standard is not based upon its bars/clubs. .

News to me:)

Chocha Monger

07-31-09, 10:49

A female point of view on why men monger.
http://www.askmen.com/dating/vanessa_60/91_love_secrets.html

Warbucks

08-01-09, 04:15

A female point of view on why men monger.
http://www.askmen.com/dating/vanessa_60/91_love_secrets.html
Nice article CM especially the end part. I have had many a WG ask me why I am mongering. “You’re young why you don’t have a girlfriend?”

Dickhead

08-01-09, 04:59

That's funny cuz here the WGs all assume you're married. The first year I was here I had this chilena who was built like a brick shit house. About the seventh or eighth time she was at my apartment she asked me where I lived. I was like, uh, here? Buenos Aires? I don't understand the question. She said, "No, I know you live here in Buenos Aires, but in what neighborhood?" We are in my fucking apartment. I am completely confused.

I say, "I live here in this apartment. Are you drunk or high on something?" "No, I just figure this is your bulo." A bulo is like a fuck pad. Common here for several guys to go in and rent one and I have it on Mondays and you on Tuesdays and Joe on Wednesdays and shit like that.

I ask, "Why the hell would you think that?" "Because there aren't any pictures or anything or personal stuff and there are hardly any clothes in your closet." So I explained that this was all the clothes I had and that all my personal pictures and stuff like that had been destroyed when my storage unit in Germany was flooded the previous year. 100% true but I know she never believed me and is probably still sure I was married.

The next time I saw her she asked me, "Do you really only have three pairs of shoes?" I have four pairs now so I am moving up in the world. I don't have to move again for another five months so I might even buy another pair, or not.

Gedanken

08-02-09, 02:07

The next time I saw her she asked me, "Do you really only have three pairs of shoes?" I have four pairs now so I am moving up in the world. I don't have to move again for another five months so I might even buy another pair, or not.Hahaha! Geez, I own only two pairs of shoes at the moment: my Nikes and my smart black shoes for suit-and-tie occasions.

I don't know how anyone can honestly say they can live only for pussy and be happy.

Dickhead

08-02-09, 02:43

"I don't know how anyone can honestly say they can live only for pussy and be happy."

Probably English isn't your first language but I don't see where anyone on this thread ever said anything like that.

Obviously you can't be happy living only for pussy. You need beer and weed and a high-level career with steady money coming in and a good gym (and a good pair of gym shoes). You need intellectual and cultural stimulation from time to time as well.

I don't know how anyone can live without sex and be happy. I know a lot of people who live without sex and none of them seem very happy to me. Perhaps we could do a study correlating perceived happiness with the number of pairs of shoes owned. The results could be quite interesting.

Carmex

08-02-09, 16:16

Ok, so I read the report written by the chick in the link, and yes, probably at some time I will feel lonely about only seeing young, hot pussy willing to take it in the mouth for 1200 php.

On the other hand, I, (like the guy in the article), have neither the time nor the patience to go on 3 dates (my limit) with chicks for mediocre sex at best with a chick that doesn't know how to give a good BJ or take it in the ass.

Add up all the dates you have been on in your life, then add the money you spent, and subtract the times you got fucked. Then do the same with all the SP you have been with and see which number is bigger.

Doing different pussy each time gets my dick hard. Even same old/same old providers get boring after a while, no matter how hot they are. That is just me. Honestly, right now, I don't think you could pay me to get married. Unless she was an ultra rich, bisexual, multi-orgasmic, super model with a PhD in Astrophysics. Then, maybe then, I would last for a couple of years.

Just ask Hugh Hefner.

I rest my case.

Bango Cheito

08-03-09, 22:22

Wow, I've not had time to reply for a while...

Just to say, IMOE, mongering has NOT made me any harder. In face, since I moved to Colombia, my heart chakra has been blown WIDE open. Living in North America made me hard and cold and lacking in perception. That's all been corrected now. I mongered in both places, ergo, mongering had NOTHING to do with it.

I'm currently in love with a girl I may never be more than friends with (although God and Satan both know I will do what I can to change that).... and in the meantime I'm still mongering AND seeing other girls casually. Being in love hasn't lessened the joy of that, but at the same time, the joy of that hasn't lessened the pain or longing of the unrequited love. But if the girl ends up deciding she does want to be with me and demands monogamy in return, I will even give it a try. I don't know if the sex will be the most mind-blowing sex ever or just mediocre. I personally doubt I could be this into the girl and not have great sex, but the proof is in the pudding. I honestly really don't know just how much experience she has, I haven't been able to pry it out of her yet. But also, even if she's inexperienced there is always the possibility that she will learn fast and be down for everything!!

If you want to talk about quality of life here, the ONLY area in which an American city beats Bogota would be access to cars, and I fucking hate cars and I hate to drive anyways. The water here is better quality than ANY American city's water, and 99% of the city has good access to it. Not to mention medical care. And trust me, there are a lot of plasma TVs in the poorest neighborhoods here too! Not that I think that's a good thing either!

There are also food stamps, other programs for infants and children, besides the aforementioned medical programs, TONS of shit to help the bottom 20% of society here. The women who work in prostitution here do it by and large by CHOICE..... meaning 99.9999% of the time by choice.

The last girl I had here only works one day a week... hardly sounds like coercion to me!

Lastly, Illogic, you yourself said it, the problem is THE WAY PEOPLE LOOK AT PROSTITUTES. We change THAT, and the problem goes away!!

Gedanken

08-07-09, 01:28

Probably English isn't your first language but I don't see where anyone on this thread ever said anything like that.My good sir, I must insist that I was merely agreeing with you. In a recent, previous post you said, "I think most guys who move to a country just for the pussy will not be happy." That statement was what I was agreeing with, I apologise for not making myself clearer.

Perhaps we could do a study correlating perceived happiness with the number of pairs of shoes owned. The results could be quite interesting.This sounds like a worthwhile research project! Given the apparent relationship between numbers of pairs of shoes that many silly, shallow, money-motivated, rich-world women insist on owning and their levels of happiness (and mine), I'd be unsurprised if the study found that that owning lots of shoes means you are not very happy (and unable to make a man happy). You and I, with our mere handful of pairs of shoes, are the people to emulate, Dickhead!

Gedanken

08-07-09, 02:01

Ok, so I read the report written by the chick in the link, and yes, probably at some time I will feel lonely about only seeing young, hot pussy willing to take it in the mouth for 1200 php.Such times will happen - and for me that's when the beer comes in! I get some beers into me to drown my sorrows, or better still go out drinking with friends or a fellow monger. The bad time will not last forever. Better still, go get yourself some GFE! Nothing like some loving GFE to cheer up the melancholic monger!

I love stating the obvious: life is all about making decisions and living with the consequences. I foresee quite well most of the likely and inevitable downsides to this mongering lifestyle which we all follow, but for me it's worth it. I know that I can't have my cake and eat it: mongering has downsides. I don't think throwing yourself headlong into mongering without consideration of the impact that it will have on yourself and your life is particularly wise. Sure, sometimes feeling lonely about only seeing young, hot pussy will happen; it's just a downside to mongering. On the other side of the fence, which always looks greener, you could be chained to a wife who could leave you at any moment and so leave you in an emotional and financial ruin. My fear of commitment (i.e. fear of rejection) plus my non-existent desire to bring children into this shitty world makes choosing mongering a reasonably easy decision (though I am mindful that this choice has its downsides).

On the other hand, I, (like the guy in the article), have neither the time nor the patience to go on 3 dates (my limit) with chicks for mediocre sex at best with a chick that doesn't know how to give a good BJ or take it in the ass.Again I find myself agreeing with you. What's the point in wining and dining your typical girl and all the effort that dating requires (with no guarantee of a lay even at the end of it), when you can just make a phone call or go to a club, pay a sum of money and fuck the kind of pussy that you could otherwise only dream about?

Doing different pussy each time gets my dick hard. Even same old/same old providers get boring after a while, no matter how hot they are. That is just me. Honestly, right now, I don't think you could pay me to get married.Ditto: the more women I fuck, the more women I want to fuck. It also helps with the dehumanisation process if you only see the girl once. If you see them a few times, spend some time chatting with them, I find it much harder - if not impossible - to treat them like fuck-meat.

Gedanken

08-07-09, 02:16

[t]he problem is the way people look at prostitutes. we change that, and the problem goes away!!i strongly disagree.

prostitution, particularly if we ignore rich-world girls earning good money and instead focus on poor countries, is extremely harmful to the women engaged in it. there's been study after study of this, i can't believe it's even up for debate. let me cite again the state department's 2005 trafficking in persons report which summarised some of these studies: "field research in nine countries concluded that 60 to 75 percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70 to 95 percent were physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans and victims of state-organized torture." nearly 90% of the girls interviewed wanted to leave prostitution.

the results of such research not withstanding, there are ways and means of avoiding feeling guilty about enjoying yourself at the expense of others (just ask the nazis or ariel sharon), but please let's not kid ourselves about the bleeding obvious: prostitution is a profoundly negative activity for most of the girls involved in it.

Gedanken

08-07-09, 02:29

Nice article CM especially the end part. I have had many a WG ask me why I am mongering. “You’re young why you don’t have a girlfriend?”Ditto. I've lost count of the number of times a girl's remarked her surprise about my age. "You're very young..." she'll often say. The first time a girl said that to me, I myself was surprised about her surprise and so I asked her back, "Really? So how old are most of the guys who come and see you?" "Fifty. Sixty," was her reply. I guess seeing a guy in his twenties must make a change then!!

Dickhead

08-07-09, 02:45

"let me cite again the state department's 2005 trafficking in persons report"

like the state department is a good, unbiased source of information about prostitution. they don't know shit from apple butter. earlier i said you probably weren't a native english speaker (i based that on your screen name, which sounds teutonic to me); i think i was wrong about that but from your spelling you certainly aren't from the us so here's a secret: the us state department sucks, and has an agenda.

"field research in nine countries concluded that 60 to 75 percent of women in prostitution were raped"

yeah, well, i've done field research in way more countries than that, and although a lot of hookers (and non-hookers) were sexually abused in their youth, usually by a relative, i have yet had one tell me about a forcible [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) that occurred while they were hooking.

"70 to 95 percent were physically assaulted,"

any study that can't narrow it down any further than that extremely wide range isn't worth shit. i've talked to one who got hit on the head with a bottle and one who had a guy pull out a knife and talk about what he could do with it (but did nothing and was too coked out to fuck her, but paid her anyway). i've talked to many more who say nothing like that has ever happened. i'm sure it depends on the country. knowing the state department's proclivity to disseminate bullshit, they probably cherry-picked the nine most dangerous ones.

"and 68 percent met the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans and victims of state-organized torture."

interesting they can come up with an exact percentage figure for meeting these highly subjective criteria, as opposed to the earlier 25 percentage point range. i'll throw the bullshit card here as well.

"nearly 90% of the girls interviewed wanted to leave prostitution."

a) it would not surprise me if nearly 90% of the women interviewed would say they wanted to leave prostitution, if they thought that's what the interviewer wanted to hear.
b) nearly 90% of all dishwashers, refuse collectors, bill collectors, hospital orderlies, and so forth probably want to leave those jobs, too. hell, i have a good job and i'm sick of it and i want to leave it. i left a couple of careers. proves nothing.

"prostitution is a profoundly negative activity for most of the girls involved in it."

women, not girls, unless you have something wrong with you. just last night i had a hooker tell me how much she liked the job and how much better she's able to provide for kids than her neighbors are able to. i have heard other comments like, "if i hadn't done this i never would have had the opportunity to travel"; "i've learned a lot about my own sexuality while doing this"; "i've met so many interesting people from so many places"; and so forth.

this is all coming from hookers i've known for years so they are not telling me what i want to hear. this is all coming spontaneously and not in response to questions about it (i don't ask these kinds of questions but if they volunteer things i find it interesting).

listening to the us state department is liking drinking jim jones' kool aid. they same the same shit about don't go to (insert whatever country is currently out of political favor) because it's too dangerous.

i'm not saying there is no forced prostitution and no [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) but those figures are blown way out of any reasonable proportion and those clowns have no idea how to conduct a statistically valid survey.

Gedanken

08-07-09, 04:08

Like the State Department is a good, unbiased source of information about prostitution. They don't know shit from apple butter.Come along! As well you know, these are mere ad hominems, Dickhead!

Earlier I said you probably weren't a native English speaker (I based that on your screen name, which sounds Teutonic to me); I think I was wrong about that but from your spelling you certainly aren't from the USYou are quite correct: 'gedanken' is the German word for 'thoughts' (I don't speak German, I just like the word for various reasons). As for the spelling, you're reading English as it ought to be spelt! You filthy Yanks butcher it with your use of 'z' instead of 's' and your removal of the letter 'u' from such words as 'colour' - not to mention the endless mispronunciations which preceded such barbarism! The Queen is not amused with your continued abuse of the English language. Even those wretched Canadians can spell properly (even if they can't speak properly)! ;D

... so here's a secret: the US State Department sucks, and has an agenda.Mere ad hominem, my good man! I'm tempted to ask, "What agenda?" but such a question invites yet more discussion which I'm not that interested in (see below). Instead I'll ask you to cite me some research which suggests that poor-country prostitution is something other than that described by the research cited by the State Department. If you can't, will you agree that it is you and I who have the agenda (see my next remark).

Yeah, well, I've done field research in way more...I must insist that this is mere personal experience, not field research. You and I are the people with the agenda, Dickhead, since we are the ones who partake in the demand side of prostitution and so have to justify to ourselves what we do. If your way of avoiding feeling guilty about what we do is to shower inconvenient facts with ad hominems, please do continue to go for it. I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm not out to make anyone feel guilty about something which I do myself. It's just that stirring things opens up an opportunity to discuss the various ways in which humans can do something immoral yet avoid feeling guilty. It's this that I find interesting.

Any study that can't narrow it down any further than that extremely wide range isn't worth shit.Only under the assumption that there isn't a causal explanation for such a range: begging the question.

I've talked to one who got hit on the head... I've talked to many more who say nothing like that has ever happened.Personal experience again.

Knowing the State Department's proclivity to disseminate bullshit, they probably cherry-picked the nine most dangerous ones.Another ad hominem, and I'd also remark that the Office of Special Plans operated under the Department of Defense.

Interesting they can come up with an exact percentage... as opposed to the earlier... range.Only under the assumption that there isn't a causal explanation for the difference: begging the question again.

A) It would not surprise me if nearly 90% of the women interviewed would say they wanted to leave prostitution, if they thought that's what the interviewer wanted to hear.This sort of argument can be applied to every question asked in any survey: "It would not surprise me if nearly ___% of the _______ interviewed would say _______, if they thought that's what the interviewer wanted to hear." Underpinning the whole think are the assumptions that the women interviewed a) knew that the interviewer wanted to hear them say horrible stuff about prostitution, and b) that the interviewer wanted to hear horrible stuff be said about prostitution. You offer no verifiable evidence which suggests either assumption is valid.

B) Nearly 90% of all dishwashers... Proves nothing.It shows that given the option they'd do something else, proves that they don't enjoy prostitution.

Women, not girls, unless you have something wrong with you.Ah, come on, Dickhead! I've no doubt you've used the terms 'girls' and 'women' interchangeably on occasion, just like myself and many other guys.

Just last night...Again, personal experience.

Listening to the US State Department is liking drinking Jim Jones' Kool Aid. They same the same shit about don't go to (insert whatever country is currently out of political favor) because it's too dangerous.More ad hominems. Who is Jim Jones?

... those clowns have no idea how to conduct a statistically valid survey.We start where we left off: ad hominem!

Dickhead

08-07-09, 15:52

When I talk about field research, I'm not just talking about fucking them. I am working on a book. No, I do not use "woman" and "girl" interchangeably. Jim Jones was a cult leader whose followers committed mass suicide by drinking Kool Aid in Guyana some years back (early 80s, maybe).

Specialise or specialize, I don't care, but clearly color is more efficient and thus better than colour. What, back in the days of the Domesday Book they had u's on sale at 2 for 1 so you blokes bought a whole bunch of extra ones and had to use them up somehow?

Opebo

08-07-09, 18:29

The results of such research not withstanding, there are ways and means of avoiding feeling guilty about enjoying yourself at the expense of others (just ask the Nazis or Ariel Sharon), but please let's not kid ourselves about the bleeding obvious: prostitution is a profoundly negative activity for most of the girls involved in it.

So is all paid employment in a capitalist society, Gedanken.

Warbucks

08-08-09, 04:32

Ditto. I've lost count of the number of times a girl's remarked her surprise about my age. "You're very young..." she'll often say. The first time a girl said that to me, I myself was surprised about her surprise and so I asked her back, "Really? So how old are most of the guys who come and see you?" "Fifty. Sixty," was her reply. I guess seeing a guy in his twenties must make a change then!!

G had no idea you were a young lad such as myself due to your writing style. Maybe we see something these guys don't. What's that old saying you can't teach a old dog new tricks. Just like the hooker the monger also becomes hardened delusional and full of excuses.

So is all paid employment in a capitalist society, Gedanken.

Here we go again with the stupid prostitution is just like any other job debate.

A typical shit job in the States:

DHL, Fed Ex or UPS Package Handler

Mostly employs low socio-economical Blacks and Mexicans and third world imports.

Pros:

1.Promotions are readily available depending on the time you put it in.
2.Things are in place to protect the worker from injury or abuse. Not because they care about the worker but the worker is of no use to the company if the worker got hurt. Might be also be grounds for a lawsuit.
3.Even as the lowly package handler there are programs you can take advantage of for example in-house management training, tuition assistance etc
4.Paid time off.
5.Retirement package

Cons:

1.Pay is low starting out.
2.On you feet all day.
3.Managers may harass you asking you to work faster, accusing you of theft. Susceptible to searches upon leaving work daily etc.
4.Vulnerability to the elements. In the winter it is cold in the summer it is hot.
5.Susceptible to injury from moving heavy boxes. Bending and turning multiple times a day.

Prostitution:

In the first world we can safely assume this is a career of choice. In the third world we can assume in most cases the girls don't have or don't “see” a better option.

Pros:

1.Potential to make a lot of money early and fast.
2.Flexible work hours you are the boss if are a freelancer.
3.Getting paid to have sex. What could be better?
4.Getting gifts and trips from lonely customers.
5.Can quit and start this career at your leisure

Cons:

1.Great potential for mental, emotional and physical trauma (Aggressive customer. Such as one who likes to fuck up the ass poignantly).
2.STDs. Unwanted pregnancies. Condoms are not 100% and can pop at a moments notice.
3.Nothing is there to protect the provider from abuse or vice versa
4.There is no guaranteed promotion opportunity. In PI the girls might get lucky and meet an old , lonely guy who will support them from abroad (Western Union/sponsor) or marry them and take them back home.

Some of the girls become Mamasuns or managers for younger providers once their shelf life expires. Most though end up right back in the poverty from whence they came only with no hope of marriage or a stable life. Alcohol and sex which they have grown accustomed to something easily obtained over the years is no longer there. They then push their offspring into this lifestyle dooming them to almost certain similar fate. ( I have seen this with my own eyes.)
5. Naive third world providers. No condom...no problem.

In Closing:

I must be fair and say I have only two good hard core prostitute friends. One is Go-Go dancer in Makati the other is freelancer who hangs out at a well known spot in Manila. They both know nothing serious can come of our time spent together so they tell me everything about the good and bad of their lives. Mentally and emotionally they seem to be together still but one is 21-the other 24 so they are relatively still young. I hope they or I am around to see them in 10 more years.

On the other hand in Japan I befriended a lot of hostess workers. Now contrary to popular belief hostesses do not sale sex. They are though in a bar. Talking to various men and drinking hours on end. One Hostess I know came from the Philippines with nothing but the clothes on her back but due to a divorce and investing her money wisely has amassed a fortune in real estate and liquid assets.

Two other hostesses I know sadly didn't turn out so well. They blew all their money on bullshit, clothes, electronics helping family members etc. Now they are old, lonely, used up, (various real but short relationships with Japanese men) poor and now their daughters are forced to repeat their mistakes all over again.

Opebo

08-08-09, 15:27

That's very interesting about the swarthy porters Illogic, but I didn't perceive any clear argument that their servitude was 'better' (or rather less bad) than that of our dear girls.

ThatGuy865

08-08-09, 22:27

ditto. i've lost count of the number of times a girl's remarked her surprise about my age. "you're very young." she'll often say. the first time a girl said that to me, i myself was surprised about her surprise and so i asked her back, "really? so how old are most of the guys who come and see you? " "fifty. sixty, " was her reply. i guess seeing a guy in his twenties must make a change then! they are saying this because a man in his twenties should be able to meet women without paying. its only a reflection of how desperate or strange you are. most (not all) guys in their twenties wouldn't consider paying for pussy. the only exception to this is being in the military where they are out on tours (mainly out of the country) and influenced by older more senior peers.

its easy for the average man in his twenties to get laid by babes in their twenties. its ridiculous. quite ashame that you have to resort to p4p to get yours.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 03:25

Shoot a sans-condom movie with my favourite Euro pornstar... Sounds intriguing!

G had no idea you were a young lad such as myself due to your writing style. Maybe we see something these guys don't. What's that old saying you can't teach a old dog new tricks. Just like the hooker the monger also becomes hardened delusional and full of excuses.Nice to see another youngster gracing these boards, we seem to be a minority! With regard to your first sentence, I love to be silly and type like a stereotypical, pompous, daft, English gentleman. It's harmless enough and there are far worse ways to address someone than calmly, politely and faux-pompously! Do you ever see me insult someone or behave aggressively, for example? With regard to the rest of what you wrote, I find myself in full agreement with it. I wonder what I'll be like after a couple of decades of mongering...

Here we go again with the prostitution is just like any other job debate.So it seems!

It's really hard trying to move many mongers beyond debates about the nature of our hobby, since just like me they have to justify to themselves what they do if they aren't to feel guilty about it. Imagine the unpleasant, all-consuming sensation of guilt which would be induced in a monger who allows his eyes to be opened to the true nature of our hobby if his way of justifying it to himself is that there is nothing wrong with it.

That said, life's both easier and more difficult when you don't deceive yourself about the immorality of the actions you take. Easier, because you don't unintentionally get yourself into a pickle at a later date; harder, because you still have to find some way of living with yourself!

That's very interesting about the swarthy porters Illogic, but I didn't perceive any clear argument that their servitude was 'better' (or rather less bad) than that of our dear girls.Forgive me for answering a post which was explicitly directed at Illogic, but could I suggest that your post was perhaps beside the point. Unless we're going to throw sane moral-logic out of the window, I could say that just because all employees are exploited by their employers as wage slaves, it doesn't make it OK for me to become the exploiter of the girls we see. I'd make the same remark about your post to me:

So is all paid employment in a capitalist society, Gedanken.And so I would say again: just because company employees are exploited in capitalist countries, it doesn't make it OK for me to become the exploiter in another context. Without indulging in hypocrisy, one cannot lament exploitation on the one hand whilst engaging in it on the other. My exploitation is not OK just because others exploit.

I am an exploiter, and I live with the effects my exploitation has on both me and the girls. Dealing with the negative effects on the girls is pretty easy most of the time, to be honest. I know that sounds terrible, but there you go. I make sure to treat the girl as nicely as I can; I stick to seeing hot girls because dehumanising hot girls is very easy, even reflexive; I only see the same girl again very rarely (i.e. if she is especially hot) so as to avoid getting to know her at all; I tell none of my friends or family about what I do; I avoid situations where someone can (rightly) condemn me for what I choose to do; I am convinced beyond psychological doubt that there is no god, and so have no fear of 'paying for my crimes' in this life or the next; I do my best to be a decent person in every other area of my life so I can say to myself that I'm not a complete arsehole; I chat to you guys here which always reminds me that there are others doing what I do; and so on.

Avoiding seeing the consequences of my actions up close and personal is the really critical one. If I'm brutally honest, even reading about the effects of it in State Department reports doesn't really bother me, since it's just a bunch of percentages, a bunch of faceless numbers. It's like when the media sanitises their coverage of war, including the most recent Iraq War: it stops the full horror of what your country is doing from hitting home, so you don't feel that guilty about it, you're not that outraged about it.

As I said before, I think that thinking through your actions is important; to me it's crucial. I prepared myself gradually for my first WG (lots of porn); I prepared myself for Poland (saw a reasonable number of WGs in London); and I'm preparing myself for Ghana (repeatedly seeing a smoking-hot, eighteen-year-old sweetie who I desperately wish wasn't in prostitution). Once I've gone to West Africa, my mountain will have been climbed and I can just relax and get on with my mongering.

I know all that sounds so cold and calculating, but I just have to make sure I'm careful not to bite off too much in one go. I like fucking hot girls; I want to minimise the cost of it; and I don't want to feel guilty about it. That's the goal, and above is my way of having gone about it. I can't believe there's a regular guy in the whole world who's never seen a prostitute in his life before but who would be capable of going mongering in a dirt-poor country and not feel guilty about it, maybe to the point of suicide. Me, I'm just a regular guy, that's my working assumption, and so I prepare myself. As a result, I felt no real guilt about fucking the hotties of Poland, and I will have the time of my life in West Africa in the not too distant future.

I can't see why my course of action could not be replicated by any other regular guy who is thinking about taking up mongering. As I said before, there are downsides to mongering which you'll need to give consideration, just the same as with anything else, but two of those downsides need not be self-deception and feeling guilty.

I must be fair and say I have only two good hard core prostitute friends... Mentally and emotionally they seem to be together still but one is 21-the other 24 so they are relatively still young. I hope they or I am around to see them in 10 more years.

On the other hand in Japan I befriended a lot of hostess workers. Now contrary to popular belief hostesses do not sale sex. They are though in a bar. Talking to various men and drinking hours on end. One Hostess I know came from the Philippines with nothing but the clothes on her back but due to a divorce and investing her money wisely has amassed a fortune in real estate and liquid assets.

Two other hostesses I know sadly didn't turn out so well. They blew all their money on bullshit, clothes, electronics helping family members etc. Now they are old, lonely, used up, (various real but short relationships with Japanese men) poor and now their daughters are forced to repeat their mistakes all over again.I hope your WG friends pan out OK in the end, though of course you've got to fear the worst for them. I feel so sorry for the girls who fritter their hard-earned money away on trying to live the Western ideal of shallow, empty, mindless materialism and consumerism. Why can't they see that they won't be young forever? I saw a Thai girl here in London once: she was well clued up, saving every last penny she could and sending it back home rather than splashing out on a lavish, London lifestyle. I have absolutely no doubt that things will work out for her. It's also wonderful to hear that you've met some girls who see through the Western 'ideal' and manage to leave for good the poverty into which they were so unfortunately born.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 03:39

what are your thoughts on this, opebo?

psychologists use the term "socialization" to designate the process by which children are trained to think and act as society demands. a person is said to be well socialized if he believes in and obeys the moral code of his society and fits in well as a functioning part of that society.

the moral code of our society is so demanding that no one can think, feel and act in a completely moral way. for example, we are not supposed to hate anyone, yet almost everyone hates somebody at some time or other, whether he admits it to himself or not. some people are so highly socialized that the attempt to think, feel and act morally imposes a severe burden on them. in order to avoid feelings of guilt, they continually have to deceive themselves about their own motives and find moral explanations for feelings and actions that in reality have a non-moral origin. we use the term "oversocialized" to describe such people.

oversocialization can lead to low self-esteem, a sense of powerlessness, defeatism, guilt, etc. one of the most important means by which our society socializes children is by making them feel ashamed of behavior or speech that is contrary to society's expectations. if this is overdone, or if a particular child is especially susceptible to such feelings, he ends by feeling ashamed of himself. moreover the thought and the behavior of the oversocialized person are more restricted by society's expectations than are those of the lightly socialized person.

the majority of people engage in a significant amount of naughty behavior. they lie, they commit petty thefts, they break traffic laws, they goof off at work, they hate someone, they say spiteful things or they use some underhanded trick to get ahead of the other guy. the oversocialized person cannot do these things, or if he does do them he generates in himself a sense of shame and self-hatred. the oversocialized person cannot even experience, without guilt, thoughts or feelings that are contrary to the accepted morality; he cannot think "unclean" thoughts.

and socialization is not just a matter of morality; we are socialized to conform to many norms of behavior that do not fall under the heading of morality. thus the oversocialized person is kept on a psychological leash and spends his life running on rails that society has laid down for him. in many oversocialized people this results in a sense of constraint and powerlessness that can be a severe hardship. we suggest that oversocialization is among the more serious cruelties that human beings inflict on one another.

Rubber Nursey

08-09-09, 03:53

gedanken: as someone who has been directly involved in the tip data collection process, i agree with everything dh said about the tip report. in most cases the 'data' is not data at all, but a collection of opinions from selected agencies that claim to be stakeholders in sex industry/trafficking debate. tip researchers do not ask for supporting evidence or quantifiable statistics to support any of those opinions. moreover, the tip report is inherently biased. the us state department condemns all forms of prostitution (not just trafficking) within the document - they can't afford to contradict themselves and include any 'positive' opinions or experiences.

the statistics you quoted (75% of women in prostitution are raped, 95% are physically assaulted, etc) are actually a bad case of chinese whispers - each time they're published, they grow and change and move further away from the truth. those studies never intended to describe all 'women in prostitution'.

the original studies involved street-based sex workers. in most developed countries, street-based sex workers account for less than 10% of all sex workers. they are much more likely to come into contact with police, drug services, homeless shelters, etc than private or brothel workers, who generally operate under the radar and are difficult for researchers to access. the street workers surveyed in those studies were only accessible because they were already in contact with police, courts and/or welfare support services...that is, they were in crisis, in need, or in trouble. applying the findings of those studies to all sex workers, is like surveying women in a domestic violence shelter about their experience of marriage and violence and applying the findings to all women.

studies conducted on 'indoor' sex workers have completely different results. a recent australian book called call girls by roberta perkins, which studied mostly independent escorts and private workers, showed very high levels of education, job satisfaction, workplace standards, etc. experiences of drug use, violence and mental illness were found to be no different in those women, than in non-sex workers. (unless they're working in heavily criminalised environments, in which case they're more vulnerable to theft or violence, because they have less access to justice). informal surveys conducted by australian sex worker organisations echo these findings.

don't get me wrong - i'm not questioning the validity of the street work studies, nor am i denying the horrendous personal experiences of the women surveyed. what i'm questioning is the assumption that 'prostitution' was the cause. street workers have sex for money and often experience violence, mental illness and drug addiction. private sex workers have sex for money and often don't experience any of those things. surely if prostitution was the cause, the effect would be universal? if you interviewed other homeless or street-present people who have never been hookers, you would also find high levels of mental illness, drug addiction and violence. the logical conclusion to draw from that would be that street-living, not sex work, is responsible.

Dickhead

08-09-09, 03:58

"I only see the same girl again very rarely so as to avoid getting to know her at all"

Which is exactly why you have no idea what you're talking about. But, you're young (like IL/DW) and seem fairly bright (like IL/DW) so there may be hope for you.

"I tell none of my friends... about what I do"

Then your friends don't know who you really are, and probably aren't really your friends at all, only mere acquaintances. All my friends know what I do. Some of them don't agree with it, but we can discuss it and I haven't lost any friends over it. Here it is; take it or leave it. You have guilt issues so you are living a lie. If that makes you feel better, that's fine. Again, as you mature, you might see that is not the way to go.

"Avoiding seeing the consequences of my actions up close and personal is the really critical one ... reading about the effects of it in State Department reports doesn't really bother me, since it's just a bunch of percentages"

Replace "percentages" with bullshit, and also this does make you seem like an arsehole (and a gullible one at that), another word we Americans have shortened and made more efficient.

However, I do think your course of action, for a beginner, is well-thought out and likely to be effective. Don't dive into the deep end of the pool if you don't know how to swim kind of thing. You might even have the potential to get to know a few women on a personal basis, and it might open your eyes. You will eventually need to see and think about the consequences of your actions in order to become a mature adult.

Just because we kicked your asses in a couple of wars and bailed your sorry asses out of a couple of other ones doesn't mean it's acceptable for you to swallow the bullshit propaganda our State Department spews out. But traveling leads to mongering, and mongering leads to traveling, and both of those activities lead to increased cultural awareness (which is one reason why mongering is inherently good). So, for a youngster you are mostly on the right track (as is IL but being American he suffers from more ethnocentricity).

Cheers,

DH

Dickhead

08-09-09, 04:08

I wrote my previous post while RN was posting and didn't see hers before I wrote mine. But pretty much what she said. The State Department nonsense is similar to saying "100% of all people in jail have been arrested."

However, where I live, "street" prostitutes are often the same people as "private" or "brothel" workers. They might hang out on the street before the club opens, or might hang out on the street on Sundays when most brothels are closed, or might hang out on the street if they don't feel like following the club's rules on any given night. Or, they might be "private" in that they have an internet presence but hang out on the street while waiting for the phone to ring. I am constantly giving RN shit for only knowing one part of one country.

Partly I do that to point out to her that her experiences may not be representative of the world wide scene and partly I do that to try to convince her to come visit me :<)

Dickhead

08-09-09, 04:14

Funny that Gedanken asked me who Jim Jones was. Who's this Kaczynski guy? He makes some good points. It reminds me a bit of Alexander Portnoy saying, "You have no idea how some people will react to a lifetime sentence of doing what they're supposed to do" (or words to that effect).

But hey Gedanken, I went back and read up on Jones (it was 1978 BTW) and I thank you because I found out a lot of stuff I did not know. I thought he was some right-wing Christian fundy and nothing could be farther from the truth. So you made me learn something.

Rubber Nursey

08-09-09, 05:13

However, where I live, "street" prostitutes are often the same people as "private" or "brothel" workers ... I am constantly giving RN shit for only knowing one part of one country. Partly I do that to point out to her that her experiences may not be representative of the world wide scene...
I already ramble long enough in my posts, without adding lengthy disclaimers! Of course I realise that many sex workers move from one sector of the industry to another throughout their working life - actually, one of the most interesting findings in the Call Girls book was that lots of so-called 'high class call girls' had also worked on the streets at some point. Maybe I should clarify ...those particular street workers surveyed, were experiencing particular problems in their particular personal lives that were particular to their circumstances at that particular point in time. Better? :P

When I talk about my own personal experiences, I've always admitted they come solely from a West Aussie, white, female, private/brothel worker point of view. Analysing national and international sex work policy, research and legislation, however, has been my JOB for 11 years. I live and breathe it. When I talk policy, I'm talking across the board. That said, the TIP stats that Gedanken quoted came from mostly Australian research, which I feel pretty qualified to comment on. The ethics and impartiality of those studies is constantly questioned, and yet the findings still appear in every anti-prostitution document ever produced. It's an ongoing pain in my arse.

Rubber Nursey

08-09-09, 05:28

...and partly I do that to try to convince her to come visit me :<)
I'd love to come visit you, DH, but studies have shown that I'm likely to be kidnapped by armed men and ransomed to my Government if I set foot in your country. I'd like to go to America, too, but studies show that the Yanks all carry guns and I'm highly likely to be shot while doing my grocery shopping. Probably by a black man, because studies show that black men are much more dangerous than white men. I think I'll stay here, where I'm statistically more likely to drink myself to death, because studies show that most Australians are apathetic pissheads.

Chocha Monger

08-09-09, 08:16

This is an interesting debate indeed. The way I see the whole monger vs. prostitute issue is that there is some exploitation on both sides. The mongers aren’t necessarily the apex predators in this ecosystem. True. The mongers usually have the advantage but they don’t always come out ahead. Even the lion, king of the jungle, can sometimes suffer a broken jaw from being kicked by a fleeing wildebeest. This means a slow painful death for the lion who is condemned to starvation as a result of his injuries. There are many reports here of cases where mongers were overcharged, robbed, assaulted or cheated out of promised services by prostitutes. Many mongers marry prostitutes only to get fleeced after taking them back to their home countries. Guys get fooled into sending scheduled cash remittances to their prostitute girlfriends who usually have multiple mongers providing a stream of cash. Foreign mongers also get charged several times the going rate that local mongers pay for the same service.

I don’t see why anyone would feel guilt about paying for a root. When a woman decides to sell pussy, unless she is coerced, she has already decided that doing so is the best course of action compared with the alternative of not doing so. Some of these women prefer selling pussy instead of doing a regular job. Once I offered to help some poor women start their own business by financing the venture. Instead they wanted the money as a gift and came up with all kinds of reasons why they couldn’t run a business including fears of being robbed. I soon realized that they were not interested in putting in the effort to better their situation. As Westerners we often assume that these women share our same drive to continually earn more through our own efforts. We’re often surprised when they have no ambition beyond having enough to eat and a place to sleep. Even in the US people spend their entire lives washing dishes or doing other menial labor.

From our point of view we see them as being exploited but what about their point of view? Do they really want to do something different? We keep hearing that you can take the girl out of the bar but not the bar out of the girl. This is a common refrain from those who have attempted to save bargirls by marrying them or giving financial support. The truth is that many of these women prefer to lie on their backs rather than break their backs in sweatshops or on subsistence farms. I think they simply choose between the risk of getting fucked poignantly up the ass or having to do some other type of labor.

Warbucks

08-09-09, 10:02

you pay for it anyway whether through time invested or money.

they are saying this because a man in his twenties should be able to meet women without paying.
not so. what if that guy is socially inept fat or just plain ugly? in the states even if you do get sex/relationships it is not the same as fucking yourself into a stupor with various women (sport fucking) as can be accomplished with p4p.

its only a reflection of how desperate or strange you are. most (not all) guys in their twenties wouldn't consider paying for pussy. the only exception to this is being in the military where they are out on tours (mainly out of the country) and influenced by older more senior peers.
yeah i also was a part of the not “paying for pussy” brigade until i found myself in a bar in tashkent, uzbekistan confronted with a 5-9 red-headed russian who i was salivating over who told me if i wanted to screw her it was going to cost.

it’s easy for the average man in his twenties to get laid by babes in their twenties. its ridiculous. quite ashame that you have to resort to p4p to get yours.
this is a fallacy especially considering the western world. who wants to go on dates and pretend to be interested in whatever they are talking about only for a mere chance you might get to enjoy them for a few hours or days?
p4p is not the only route but it is the most convenient for me and others i know.

i have a friend in his 20s two years younger than me who is considered handsome by a lot of women and he had no problem getting them in bed back in the states he said he would never pay for sex but after taking a trip to thailand that was a resolution he habitually broke.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 15:45

I'd like to go to America, too, but studies show that the Yanks all carry guns and I'm highly likely to be shot while doing my grocery shopping.Highly likely? Come along! US gun problems are real enough, but highly likely?! God bless America!

Probably by a black man, because studies show that black men are much more dangerous than white men.Please feel free to shoot me down as pedantic, but can I make a request to have things phrased a little less freely: "black men are much more dangerous than white men." Come on, RN. I don't know of any studies which suggest that a man who is Black contains genetic code which results in him behaving more aggressively than that of a man who is White. There are plausible explanations as to why so many young, Black men reside in US prisons, but none of them have the root cause as their being Black.

Analysing national and international sex work policy, research and legislation, however, has been my JOB for 11 years... That said, the TIP stats that Gedanken quoted came from mostly Australian research, which I feel pretty qualified to comment on. The ethics and impartiality of those studies is constantly questioned, and yet the findings still appear in every anti-prostitution document ever produced. It's an ongoing pain in my arse.I have only your word regarding your career, so appeal to your own authority, I'm afraid to say, just can't cut too much ice here where anyone can be anyone they want. So I feel I must make a few requests:

i) Aside from yourself, who "constantly questions" the ethics and impartiality of the Australian studies? Please can you provide verifiable, preferably online, sources for me to check.

ii) What are your verifiable, preferably online, sources which state that the State Department's figures come from Aussie researchers of the variety criticised by your sources in i)? In other words, do you know where on the State Department's website one can find its sourcing for the report mentioned? If not, how do you know that the State Department does indeed use the Australian sources which you dislike? If you can point me to the relevant section of their website, I can probably then trivially check for myself via Google as to whether your claims about its Australian sourcing are accurate.

Dickhead

08-09-09, 16:51

A) Rubbie was being sarcastic about the guns and the blacks and being kidnapped in my country
B) Why don't you look up the fuckin' cites of the study yourself since you're the one running around quoting it!

Member #4214

08-09-09, 17:13

gedanken: as someone who has been directly involved in the tip data collection process, i agree with everything dh said about the tip report. in most cases the 'data' is not data at all, but a collection of opinions ...

the statistics you quoted (75% of women in prostitution are raped, 95% are physically assaulted, etc) are actually a bad case of chinese whispers - each time they're published, they grow and change and move further away from the truth ...

the original studies involved street-based sex workers. in most developed countries, street-based sex workers account for less than 10% of all sex workers ... studies conducted on 'indoor' sex workers have completely different results ...

well said rn.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 17:33

At the outset here, Dickhead, I must impress on you the fact that I have had regular girlfriends.

So you made me learn something.Now you in your turn have got me curious as to who this Jim Jones character was, so you're going to make me learn something.

Who's this Kaczynski guy?Theodore Kaczynski (Wikipedia has the prounciation of his surname wrong: he has a Polish surname, so the 'cz' is like the 'ch' in 'church', not like the 'z' in 'zebra' as they state) was also known as the Unabomber. To save myself some typing, I'll point you to his entry on Wikipedia. Incidentally, I disagree with the way Kaczynski views the nature of morality, but seeing it the way he does serves his cause well.

Which is exactly why you have no idea what you're talking about.I disagree. Let me give an brief review of my thinking:

1) I have had regular girlfriends, one of whom I came fairly close to marrying. I have had normal relationships, I know what it is like to know a woman in the very fullest sense of that term.

2) I then, to mind my not unreasonably, assume that the overwhelming majority of women are not unlike the girls I've had relationships with: they want to meet and make love to a guy who loves them, makes them feel special, etc. I said 'make love', but even if we talk about sexual activity in a more general sense, they still don't want to have sex for money. Sure, girls just wanna fuck sometimes, wanna have one-night stands - but not for money. Is anyone here going to claim the existence of a large cohort of semi-pros in rich countries? Has anyone here taken back rich-world girl for a one-nighter and have her ask for 'taxi money' in the morning? Is anyone here going to argue against me if I claim that, generally speaking, levels of prostitution are incomparably lower in rich countries? Assuming not, I think it's fair to state that most WGs in poor countries would not be in the trade if they'd been born in a rich country, and so do not really want to be doing what they do.

3) I assume that human beings are fundamentally the same the world over, regardless of vanishingly small differences due to race, culture, etc. From this assumption it follows that WGs are just like my ex-girlfriends.

4) I read about the effect that prositution has on most girls, and therefore on some of the girls I see if I were to go mongering. Those effects will be something I contribute to.

5) 3) and 4) then tell me that if I am going to lovelessly fuck a poor girl and not feel guilty about it, I am going to have to find some way of not seeing the girl as being just like my ex-girlfriends who I loved and cared for. If I can't find such a way, there is no way I could ever see a WG and not feel guilty about it. I hope that's all clear enough.

6) The method I used, unconsciously and unintentionally to begin with, I have already described.

The difference between myself and many mongers here on the board is that they choose to fill their hearts with hate or delusion. Personally, I find neither of those particularly appealing when compared with my alternative.

Then your friends don't know who you really are, and probably aren't really your friends at all, only mere acquaintances.Perhaps that is a fair statement, perhaps not. If you define friends to be people who know every darkest detail about you, then yes I agree. Personally, I wouldn't define friends in such a narrow sense, and would call such people 'close friends'. Anyway, this is (perhaps) all a matter of personal definitions of words, so while I disagree with you, I can see why others would agree with you. I forgot to say that I have told one of my friends about my hobby since he sees rich-world escorts himself (though he's not been mongering; I'm working on him...). Also, I could add that my brother has, I'm pretty sure, guessed about what I get up to. Using your definitions, I therefore have at least one 'friend' and, well, what do you expect from your brother? From his reactions to things I say, I know he doesn't like what I do, but we still get on fine - I'm best man at his wedding next year!

You have guilt issues so you are living a lieI do not have guilt issues, for the reasons and the method that I outlined before. If I had guilt issues, I would not - could not - do mongering. The reason you do not have guilt issues is because you are seem wedded to the idea of prostitution not being "one of the most destructive activities human beings can be involved with." I have no need to gloss over this fact, I accept it and work around it. You and I are no different, Dickhead, though at face value you seem like the nicer person.

... this does make you seem like an arsehole (and a gullible one at that), another word we Americans have shortened and made more efficient.I appreciate your honesty, respect your opinion about me, and condemn your continued use and praise of American English. Well, I can't help it if being honest and avoiding self-deception makes me sound like a total ****! Look on the bright side, Dickhead. At least I'm not going to end up as one of these guys who dehumanises women to the point that he ends up engaged in paedophilia. I cannot even see average-looking girls without feeling horrendously guilty about it. I take no shame in setting clear limits and a strong safety-net for my mongering activities.

However, I do think your course of action, for a beginner, is well-thought out and likely to be effective.I thank you for your kind words.

You might even have the potential to get to know a few women on a personal basis, and it might open your eyes.You will eventually need to see and think about the consequences of your actions in order to become a mature adult.I send you to my very first sentence of this post. I feel it is the mongers who engage in self-deception and facile hatred of WGs (or even women generally) who are immature.

Just because we kicked your asses in a couple of wars...Damn you, sir.

... and bailed your sorry asses out of a couple of other ones... I thank only the Russians for defeating the Nazis!!

... doesn't mean it's acceptable for you to swallow the bullshit propaganda our State Department spews out.I'm still waiting for something more than ad hominems with regard to the State Department. In the continuing absence of substantive criticism, all I can say for certain is that the studies cited by the State Department clash badly with your views about (i.e. self-justifications for) mongering.

[M]ongering is inherently good.I don't know what to say to this.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 17:36

A) Rubbie was being sarcastic about the guns and the blacks and being kidnapped in my countryApologies, the shame is mine. I'm not familiar with RN's posting enough to know if she's being sarcastic about such things.

B) Why don't you look up the fuckin' cites of the study yourself since you're the one running around quoting it!Yes, OK, I'll accept this, though I want to reiterate my request i) about RN's allegations of criticisms about Australian research. If she can't provide me with sources for that, looking up the citations for State Department report is not necessary.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 17:37

gedanken: as someone who has been directly involved in the tip data collection process, i agree with everything dh said about the tip report. in most cases the 'data' is not data at all, but a collection of opinions ...

the statistics you quoted (75% of women in prostitution are raped, 95% are physically assaulted, etc) are actually a bad case of chinese whispers - each time they're published, they grow and change and move further away from the truth ...

the original studies involved street-based sex workers. in most developed countries, street-based sex workers account for less than 10% of all sex workers ... studies conducted on 'indoor' sex workers have completely different results ...again, i'll ask you for some verifiable sources.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 17:40

B) Why don't you look up the fuckin' cites of the study yourself since you're the one running around quoting it!And again, just to make sure no one is allowed off the hook, if RN doesn't know where a list of the citations are for the State Department are (either on the State Department website or elsewhere), how could she know that the State Department does indeed use the Australian sources which she dislikes?

Dickhead

08-09-09, 19:17

"Originally Posted by Dickhead
You might even have the potential to get to know a few women on a personal basis, and it might open your eyes"

By this I wasn't implying you hadn't had girlfriends. I meant get to know some of the prostitutes on a personal basis, in addition to criticising (he he) your continued use of "girls" to refer to adult women. I should have been more specific.

The problem with your #4, of course, is that you're reading bullshit. Because I was born and raised in the Yew Ess, I don't need a lot of cites and statistics to know that the Yew Ess State Department is full of shit. Just like you probably don't need to research what a crumpet is. Once you see some of the same hookers for years and years, you begin to realize they aren't that much different from anyone else.

I know who Kaczynski is. I was letting the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) out of you. But the family doesn't pronounce the name with a "ch" sound; they've "Anglicized" it as is very common in the Yew Ess. The Unabomber is currently residing in my former home state in the Yew Ess in the notorious "Super Max" prison. I essentially agree with his point of view but his tactics are indefensible. He probably didn't get laid enough. Although, it appears Jim Jones got laid plenty and he killed way more people than the Unabomber, arguably. I think you'll find him interesting. He was an atheist but he created a religion strong enough to convince I believe it was 982 people to commit mass suicide.

I really don't know if there is more prostitution or less prostitution in wealthy countries. Unfortunately it's illegal in my country. But the UK and Germany are wealthy countries (I lived in both) and it was certainly my experience in both countries that there was a lot of prostitution. Maybe there is a correlation between a lot of prostitution and extremely bad food, based on those two countries. Of course in the UK you not only have the world's worst food but the world's worst weather and the world's worst teeth, so those could also be factors.

Well, okay, the food in Ireland might be just a bit worse than the food in the UK, and there is almost no prostitution there (believe me, I looked) so that analogy doesn't hold water. Shit.

I haven't been to Japan but it's a wealthy country and has a lot of prostitution. The Netherlands is a wealthy country. I don't know if it has a lot of prostitution or whether it's just that whatever level of prostitution it has is out in the open.

I've been to about as many relatively poor countries as I've been to relatively wealthy countries (I've been to 30-32 countries so far, depending on exactly how you define "been in" and "country") and I can't say I see a correlation. Plus to me, if a woman marries a man for money, that's prostitution as well.

I have fucked hookers in the following countries (this has nothing to do with the debate; I just like bragging about it): Yew Ess, Canada, México, The Bahamas, Costa Rica, Colombia, Perú, Chile, Argentina (412 and counting), Uruguay, UK, France, Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and Cambodia, as well as in the non-countries of Puerto Rico, Hong Kong, and Macao.

I've also fucked hookers from several other countries including: Dominican Repulic, Cuba, Poland, Bulgaria, Paraguay (which produces the finest hookers in the world in my opinion), Bolivia, Nicaragua, Panamá, Jamaica, Brazil, and Syria.

I consider this to be my contribution to international relations. All Brits out there especially take note that according to the Monroe Doctrine I have an innate right to fuck all of Latin America and you Brits do not. Out of the kindness of my heart I will give you Guyana and I will even throw in Suriname although you don't deserve it.

So to keep this in a light-hearted spirit I will close with a joke:

Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Because they all have Lucas refrigerators.

Opebo

08-09-09, 19:35

What are your thoughts on this, Opebo?

I like it. But then I'm a sociopath.

Regarding exploitation - just because I always try to note its existence doesn't mean I am opposed to it in some way.

But I was wondering about one line of your post - why is it easier for you to 'dehumanize' 'hot' girls? I never dehumanize anyone, but I also haven't noticed any difference in this area based on appearance.

Gedanken

08-09-09, 19:45

We keep hearing that you can take the girl out of the bar but not the bar out of the girl. This is a common refrain from those who have attempted to save bargirls by marrying them or giving financial support.Perhaps the reason such relationships fail is in fact because you can take the monger out of the bar, but you can't the bar out of the monger.

Seriously, I don't know how any guy can expect a relationship to work out with a girl who he'd previously been paying to fuck silly. Let's go to another time and place: supposing I'd been a slave trader during the eighteenth century. Would I really expect a woman I'd traded to ever be able to love me after what I'd done to her? I'm amazed that every guy who decides to marry a WG doesn't get screwed over: he and I deserve it. If I were a WG, I'd take the opportunity to get revenge on a monger if one presented itself. It's a testimony to how nice most WGs are that they don't try to fuck us over.

I'm of a mind with Hesekiels when it comes to WGs: fuck them, then fuck them. I don't see how why sane person would take a different approach.

Dickhead

08-09-09, 19:59

I wouldn't marry a hooker. But then, I wouldn't marry anyone. It's an anachronistic concept, similar to slavery in many regards. I am not sure men and women were ever meant to live together.

Just to give one example, why I am supposed to put the toilet seat back down? Why isn't she supposed to put it back up? I think the reason Bolivia has a low divorce rate is because there are no toilet seats.

Chocha Monger

08-09-09, 20:33

I wouldn’t call prostitution the most destructive activity known to man. Many other activities such as environmental pollution, warfare, slavery, genocide and political oppression can claim that honor. Prostitution has existed as long as man’s history. In ancient Rome the state licensed and taxed prostitutes. It was one of humankind’s earliest forms of free enterprise and it has continued to flourish in spite of attempts to stamp it out. The exchange of goods for sexual services is not any more harmful than other forms of human commerce. The negative things associated with modern prostitution tend to come from other activities such as [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908), child exploitation, drug addiction and organized crime. All of these illicit activities are now presented as part of prostitution by those who want to extinguish the trade. They ignore the fact that these activities exist apart from prostitution. [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) occurs to supply cheap captive labor unrelated to sex commerce. Take a look around. Many of the Chinese workers you see at restaurants or dry cleaning services probably got here in a shipping container. Mexicans, Hondurans, Salvadorans and Guatemalans are also trafficked into the country to work on farms, construction projects, meat packing plants and landscaping projects. Trafficked prostitutes get more attention because it sells more newspapers and gets more viewers.

How many normal college girls in the US would say no to sex if you offered them $5,000 for an hour of sex with assurances that no one would ever find out? Some may get a little greedy and ask for more but if you showed them the hard cash most would have a price. That’s just reality, if you bid high enough most women will sell you what you want based on what they perceive the value of that thing to be. It is true that most American women don’t ask for cab fare home after you root them because they have a car or you do and can take them home. However, try rooting an American woman and then stop taking her out for dinner, don’t buy her flowers, don’t buy her gifts for her birthday, Valentine’s day, Christmas or any other occasion. You’ll soon see whether or not your relationship is just based on love without any kind of material or monetary exchange. Even one night stands involve the cost of a few drinks. Sex is rarely “free” if ever.

As for all this talk about coping with mongering it makes one wonder if we have a bunch of preachers like Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart and Coy Privette on this forum. As far as I’m concerned every encounter is a love story. One simply decides to fall in love for a pre-determined period of time. When that time is up the relationship ends and a gift is given to the woman. You can choose to fall in and out of love as many times as you like with the same woman or a different one. Break ups are more often amicable than not, lies are unnecessary and the absence of vindictiveness is downright refreshing. That’s more than can be said for more socially accepted boyfriend/girlfriend break ups and divorces. Maybe the desperate and strange people are the ones who think the only acceptable means of obtaining sex is to mislead women into thinking some kind of long term bonding will result from the sexual encounter. Most American women expect a call the next morning after getting fucked and become very emotional disturbed when it doesn’t come. It’s also immoral to sit at a bar plying someone with drinks and pretending to be interested in their inane babbling when what you really want to do is poignantly fuck them up one or more body orifices. Is being married and lying about getting a divorce an acceptable means of convincing a young woman to fuck you? We all saw how that worked out for McNair. What about getting into relationships with women just because you want a steady root and then dumping them when you get bored of rooting the same hole in order find a replacement? How about players with lots of game who string along several woman and has to lie several times a day just to keep the game going? Are these guys more honorable and less of an embarrassment than a twenty-something young man who pays for a root with a hot girl under no false pretenses?

What we call “game” today is actually seduction. Seduction was actually a felony.

"Seduction n. the use of charm, salesmanship, promises, gifts and flattery to induce another person to have sexual intercourse outside marriage, without any use of force or intimidation." - Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill.

Rubber Nursey

08-10-09, 02:13

Firstly, I want to apologise to Gedanken and anyone else I may have offended yesterday with my sarcastic 'statistics' post. I was just having a bit of fun with gross generalisations and stereotypes, and how easy it is to find 'supporting evidence' for just about any outrageous claim you feel like making. Obviously I don't believe any of what I said! (Except maybe the apathetic Australian pisshead bit, which appears to be supported by my own personal research).

Gedanken: Don't you find it just a little bit strange that you have the TIP report sitting right in front of you, yet don't know where any of the quoted statistics came from? As I said in my first post, the TIP researchers don't ask for supporting evidence for people's claims and the TIP report doesn't cite sources because in most cases, they aren't given any (and they can't note the ones they are given, or their failure to support the rest would be too obvious). The TIP report is nothing more than a cheap political stunt and not worth the paper it's written on.

I can't tell you exactly which studies the TIP report used, because they probably didn't use one particular study. Like I said before, those stats are a major case of Chinese Whispers. They are constantly being lifted from one 'report', conflated and expanded, and then plonked into the next 'report'. All I can say is that I recognise the 'stats' as the combined works of Melissa Farley (US), Sheila Jeffreys (AUS), Kathleen Barry (US), Catherine MacKinnon (AUS), Mary Lucille Sullivan (AUS) and Janice Raymond (US, but studies AUS). You can search all of these names individually and those same stats will pop up. Or you can find the whole lot of them in one place at the anti-prostitution site http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/faq/000008.html

As for the ethics (or lack thereof) of prostitution research, there are hundreds of critiques to be found online, but this is one of my favourites http://www.woodhullfoundation.org/content/otherpublications/WeitzerVAW-1.pdf

For alternative stats on prostitution, search for Basil Donovan, Sandra Egger, Barbara Sullivan, Roberta Perkins, or go to the Australian Institute of Criminology http://www.aic.gov.au/en/publications/previous%20series/lcj/1-20/working.aspx

Also, for another critique of the TIP report methodology, go to http://www.nodo50.org/Laura_Agustin/tip-trafficking-in-persons-the-no-methodology-report

Gedanken

08-10-09, 02:15

I like it. But then I'm a sociopath. I thought you would! ;D

Regarding exploitation - just because I always try to note its existence doesn't mean I am opposed to it.So it seems my accusations of hypocrisy were also beside the point! You just couldn't care less across the board (I don't mean that as a criticism, see below).

But I was wondering about one line of your post - why is it easier for you to 'dehumanize' 'hot' girls? I never dehumanize anyone, but I also haven't noticed any difference in this area based on appearance.Before answering your question, I’d like to ask if you are sociopath by nature or by force of logic? Do you have a medical condition which inhibits your ability to act morally, or do you abstractly regard the idea of moral prohibitions as a farce and act accordingly? Within my personal, human limits, I’m in the latter category. The reason I ask which category you are in is your assertion that you “never dehumanize anyone.” I find this incredible if you are not a sociopath by nature.

It’d be interesting to have a few critical eyes cast over what I say from this point onwards.

Turning to your question: For me, dehumanisation is the process of viewing a fellow human being as something other than my equal, something other than fully human. In the most extreme cases, a human being may be so dehumanised in a person’s eyes that they lose all their humanity, viz. slavery, the Jews in Nazi Germany. Less extreme dehumanisation can be achieved by either downplaying or ignoring particular qualities about a person, or else overemphasising particular qualities. The effect of either of these lesser modes of dehumanisation is to create a distorted view of a person. Such a distortion is immoral, but does enable immoral behaviour to be inflicted upon a person with feelings of guilt being induced (more on this later).

Applying the less extreme dehumanisation in our specific context gives us this:

The person dehumanised is the girl; the dehumanisation consists of overemphasis of one of her qualities; and the particular quality overemphasised is the girl’s sexuality. Over all, this means that instead of seeing a girl as my equal, I have distorted my view of her so that she becomes a mere object of sexual gratification. I don’t dehumanise her to the point where I’d be happy “fucking her up the arse poignantly” or other even more extreme stuff.

I said that dehumanisation allows immoral behaviour to be inflicted upon a person without feelings of guilt being induced in the inflictor. To see why I said this, I’ll need to briefly outline my views regarding moral behaviour, in other words the basis of moral knowledge.

I subscribe to Harvard’s Marc Hauser’s inchoate conception of a ‘moral faculty’. (You can Google for ‘moral faculty’ to see what I’m talking about, and Hauser’s website has a large number of his research papers on it; you can also check out stuff by people like MIT’s Liane Young). I therefore reject the position of Kaczynski et al. (do correct me if you think I’ve mischaracterised Kaczynski) that moral knowledge originates from mere socialisation - see my previous post on Kaczynski for the definition of socialisation. (From your expressed agreement with what I quoted from Kaczynski, would it be unfair to assume that you too, Opeba, subscribe to the idea that all moral knowledge stems only from socialisation?).

According to Hauser - actually, let me just quote a fairly recent paper:

Recent work in the cognitive and neurobiological sciences indicates an important relationship between emotion and moral judgment. Based on this evidence, several researchers have argued that emotions are the source of our intuitive moral judgments. However, despite the richness of the correlational data between emotion and morality, we argue that the current neurological, behavioral, developmental and evolutionary evidence is insufficient to demonstrate that emotion is necessary for making moral judgments. We suggest instead, that the source of moral judgments lies in our causal-intentional psychology; emotion often follows from these judgments, serving a primary role in motivating morally relevant action.To strip that quote down, emotion is only the proximate cause of moral persuasion.

Urgh, let me try and explain that again. The over all process (according to Hauser) is this: You consider a particular situation or course of action; your brain's moral faculty forms a moral judgment about that situation; if your moral faculty analyses it as immoral, it prompts another area of the brain to produce an emotional response; in the presence of an emotional response, we are dissuaded from taking that (immoral) course of action. (Again, please anyone correct me if you feel I’ve misunderstood Hauser’s proposal).

Regarding psychopaths, Hauser elsewhere argues they are not unable to form moral judgments - i.e. he argues that a psychopath’s moral faculty works just fine - it’s just that the part of their brain which produces the emotional response is not working. Assuming that’s the case, a psychopath correctly judges a course of action to be immoral, but just doesn’t feel any inhibitions about acting immorally because he receives no emotional response.(I liked a quote used in one of Liane Young’s papers: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. Luke 23:34”).

With this outline of my position regarding the origins of moral knowledge completed, let’s remind ourselves of my goal: I want to sexually exploit extremely attractive women and not feel guilty about it. I have had a normal upbringing; I possess a perfectly-functioning moral faculty; my brain produces an emotional response when my moral faculty judges a course of action to be immoral; and so the problem is surely to somehow prevent my moral faculty from analysing hot women as human beings. If I can solve this problem, then I can prevent the normal emotional-reaction being produced when I inflict immoral behaviour on an extremely attractive woman (the immoral behaviour in this case is, as we said, sexual exploitation).

The problem is solved by the above-mentioned, lesser dehumanisation of exaggerating a girl’s sexuality to absurd proportions. The answer to your question, “Why is it easier for you to 'dehumanize' 'hot' girls?” now follows from the fact that with a more attractive girl, her sexuality is already exaggerated, so exaggerating her sexuality further to the point where it is her dominating feature is easier than that for an average girl. In other words, when it comes to dehumanising very attractive women, I’ve got a head start. If I am not especially attracted to a girl, then exaggerating her sexuality to the point where my view of her is sufficiently distorted is much harder (actually, for me at the moment, it’s impossible), i.e. dehumanising an average girl is far harder since more distortion is required. For me at the moment, it’s impossible to sufficiently distort my view of an average-looking girl so that she is so dehumanised that the emotional response from sexually exploiting her is prevented from occurring.

There is still the question of why I view morality as a farce, and so purposefully seek to engage in immoral behaviour; however, that’s a question which involves an answer not directly related to answering your question, and so I’ll leave it.

I've accepted that it’s likely I'll only ever be able to fuck very attractive WGs, but then I don’t feel the poorer for it since I'm not interested in fucking average girls. All I want is to enjoy fucking as many hot girls as I can.

According to the test on this website, I am "moderately psychopathic":
http://www.damninteresting.com/the-unburdened-mind

Gedanken

08-10-09, 02:22

I've also fucked hookers from several other countries including: Dominican Repulic, Cuba, Poland, Bulgaria, Paraguay (which produces the finest hookers in the world in my opinion), Bolivia, Nicaragua, Panamá, Jamaica, Brazil, and Syria.

I consider this to be my contribution to international relations. All Brits out there especially take note that according to the Monroe Doctrine I have an innate right to fuck all of Latin America and you Brits do not. Out of the kindness of my heart I will give you Guyana and I will even throw in Suriname although you don't deserve it.

So to keep this in a light-hearted spirit I will close with a joke:

Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Because they all have Lucas refrigerators.Damn you, sir, damn you I say.

Gedanken

08-10-09, 02:27

Just to give one example, why I am supposed to put the toilet seat back down? Why isn't she supposed to put it back up?Another example, why do you hear phrases like, "The missile killed 44 civilians, including 15 women and 13 children." I could understand it if they'd said, "The missile killed 44 civilians, including 13 children." Why the distinction between men and women in this context? Is it somehow more of a crime to blow up a woman with a missile than it is a man? I guess as a man I just don't matter so much.

I think the reason Bolivia has a low divorce rate is because there are no toilet seats.Hahaha!

Rubber Nursey

08-10-09, 02:36

I have only your word regarding your career, so appeal to your own authority, I'm afraid to say, just can't cut too much ice here where anyone can be anyone they want.
I realise that and I don't blame you for doubting me. Short of having someone come around to my place and check my credentials, I can't really 'prove' that I am who I say I am (although, a couple of the 'Perth, Australia' ISG posters met me in person when I was working in a brothel). All I can say is that if you click on my name, it will show you that I became a member of this site on the day that this site was created. My membership was transported to the ISG from the original WSG, of which I was also a long-time member - all-up I've been posting here for about 10 years. That's a long time to sustain a lie.

Dickhead

08-10-09, 02:38

So I am going through Rubbie's links and I am ROTFLMAO. I particularly like this one:

"Negotiate a price with a stranger. Agree. Pull down one pant leg. Come and take me. Finished. Next, please."

One pant leg? What kind of pants are these? How far can you pull down one pant leg without pulling down the other one? One reason I like Paraguayas is because they can undress completely in under three seconds. I know in the US there are such things as fully clothed blow jobs. I know in The Netherlands and Mëxico it is customary to negotiate how much clothing will be removed. Thank god here it all comes off! Butt fucken naked we do it here! Now if the stockings are sexy, they can stay on.

"Women in prostitution are purchased for their appearance." I personally choose based on performance and attitude.

"80% of prostitution survivors at the WHISPER Oral History Project reported that their customers showed them pornography to illustrate the kinds of sexual activities in which they wanted to engage." Yeah, I carry around a picture of a blow job just in case the hooker doesn't know what one is. Uh huh. Hey Rubbie, you ever run across that?

"Many of the health problems of women in prostitution are a direct result of violence. For example, several women had their ribs broken by the police in Istanbul" Umm, isn't that police brutality and not prostitution-related brutality? Very confused here.

"I am a firm believer that all women are prostitutes at one time or another." That's from Shere Hite! Hey Gedanken, ever heard of her?

Pretty clear to me where Gedanken got most of his imaginary statistics!

Gedanken

08-10-09, 03:01

My dearest RN, I thank you for your sources and ask forgiveness for my laziness. I'm now more convinced that your job is what you say it is.

Firstly, I want to apologise to Gedanken and anyone else I may have offended yesterday with my sarcastic 'statistics' post... Obviously I don't believe any of what I said!My apologies again for my misunderstanding.

Gedanken: Don't you find it just a little bit strange that you have the TIP report sitting right in front of you, yet don't know where any of the quoted statistics came from?Next question.

As I said in my first post, the TIP researchers don't...Yeah, well you can prove anything with facts, can't you RN? For the time being, I'll just say, "OK" - BUT I'LL BE BACK, mark my words, Rubber Nursey! Gedanken does not take kindly to having his demands met. The correct response would have been for you to have been unable to produce any sources of any description. I mean, I've actually got to read the things now. Perhaps I'll even need to modify my views... Not yet, though! I'll let you know what I think once I've read your links in due course.

Thanks again and best wishes.

Rubber Nursey

08-10-09, 03:04

"80% of prostitution survivors at the WHISPER Oral History Project reported that their customers showed them pornography to illustrate the kinds of sexual activities in which they wanted to engage." Yeah, I carry around a picture of a blow job just in case the hooker doesn't know what one is. Uh huh. Hey Rubbie, you ever run across that?
Oh, totally. All the time. It's like bringing a magazine cut-out to the hairdressers. "Not sure which one I should go for this time, luv. What do you recommend? The Hugh Grant, or the George Michael?"

The women on that site are all raving loonies. Sheila Jeffreys, for example, describes ALL heterosexual, penis-in-vagina sex as 'VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN'. Coming from that position, how can anyone take her prostitution findings seriously?

Dickhead

08-10-09, 03:13

"I guess as a man I just don't matter so much."

A couple more examples of this bullshit:

1) In Sweden it is legal for the woman to sell the pussy but illegal for the man to buy it. Hello??? "It takes two to tango."
2) In my (ex) home state in my (ex) country, if a 17 year old boy fucks a 15 year old girl the boy faces criminal penalties. If a 15 year old boy fucks a 17 year old girl the boy faces criminal penalties. In neither situation does the girl face criminal penalties.
3) Here in my adopted country women can retire at 60 and men must be 65. Hello??? Women have longer life expectancies so it should be the other way around.
4) In the Yew Ess women can tell dirty jokes in the workplace and if I do it I get fired and blacklisted.
5) Nobody seems to want to buy my dick.

Gedanken

08-10-09, 03:28

So I am going through Rubbie's links and I am ROTFLMAO. I particularly like this one:

"Negotiate a price with a stranger. Agree. Pull down one pant leg. Come and take me. Finished. Next, please."

One pant leg? What kind of pants are these? How far can you pull down one pant leg without pulling down the other one?Hahaha! Laughter aside, I can tell you that I have jeans with an extremely flexible crotch area. 80% of guys I know have similar trousers, which would account for the figures.

I personally choose based on performance and attitude.Personally I don't care much for performance; so long as she's got the goods, I'll give her a good pounding. Personally, my performance is the only one I'm interested in.

I carry around a picture of a blow job just in case the hooker doesn't know what one is.So do I, and so do 80% of the guys I know.

Umm, isn't that police brutality and not prostitution-related brutality? Very confused here.This is nothing but an ad hominem, begging the question, affirming the consequent, a package-deal fallacy, an appeal to probability, a proof by example, affirmative conclusion from a negative premise - and so on. It's not warranted, Dickhead.

"I am a firm believer that all women are prostitutes at one time or another." That's from Shere Hite! Hey Gedanken, ever heard of her?I have indeed! ;D

Pretty clear to me where Gedanken got most of his imaginary statistics!Lies.

Dickhead

08-10-09, 03:35

oh, totally. all the time. it's like bringing a magazine cut-out to the hairdressers. "not sure which one i should go for this time, luv. what do you recommend? the hugh grant, or the george michael?"

the women on that site are all raving loonies. sheila jeffreys, for example, describes all heterosexual, penis-in-vagina sex as 'violence against women'. coming from that position, how can anyone take her prostitution findings seriously?

andrea dworkin is the worst. i went to junior high with her brother. all sex is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). all men are [CodeWord127] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127). i committed another [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) today and that's like the tenth time i've raped this same woman. i keep moving to different "flats" (apartments for those who don't waste u's and prefer z's to esses) and she keeps coming back and i keep [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) her. today i raped her orally and she kept trying to escape but even though the door was unlocked she was unable to, until she came and i came and i fed her pasta with mushroom sauce and gave her 170 pesos. plus she is 5 cm taller and a well-proportioned 75 kg and 20 years younger so continually [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) her is getting to be very physically taxing. i think next time she is going to have to [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) me.

i don't mean to make light of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) but prostitution isn't [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). in the us prostitutes are often raped and are frequently the target of serial killers. it's not funny. it is, however, at least to me, an argument for legalization.

Rubber Nursey

08-10-09, 04:31

yeah, well you can prove anything with facts, can't you rn? ...i mean, i've actually got to read the things now. perhaps i'll even need to modify my views...
lol! sorry to let the facts get in the way of a good story. :) i don't care which conclusion you end up coming to, so long as it is the result of educated and informed consideration. on the surface, the anti-sex feminazis appear to be making reasoned suggestions, which subscribe to the commonly believed stereotypes of what hookers are/do/feel, so people are quick to support them. (they also have access to copious amounts of govt and church cash that pro-sex work advocates can't touch, so their position is very well resourced). but if you peek behind the curtain, you'll see they have an agenda and it is not to 'protect' sex workers. it's to abolish the sex industry.

ps. if you're going to read up on the tip report, you also need to look up 'pepfar' and/or the 'global prostitution gag'. they go hand in hand, one supporting the other. to cut a long story short, together they constitute the us administration's plan to wipe out prostitution across the globe (the old administration, that is, but the new one hasn't made any steps towards changing it).

Rubber Nursey

08-10-09, 04:44

I carry around a picture of a blow job just in case the hooker doesn't know what one is.
So do I, and so do 80% of the guys I know.
Omigod...are you serious? (We REALLY need a 'sarcasm font' on this forum!)
Let me just clarify that my other post was a joke. I have NEVER had a client come to me with pornography that he wanted me to emulate. NEVER. There was the occasional mention of things like "I saw a girl do so-and-so in a film and I was wondering..." but I could count those requests on one hand.

Do you really take pictures with you? If so...what sort of pictures????

Rubber Nursey

08-10-09, 04:55

andrea dworkin is the worst. i went to junior high with her brother.
wow. dworkin has a brother? i can't imagine how fucked up that poor man must be.

i don't mean to make light of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) but prostitution isn't [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). in the us prostitutes are often raped and are frequently the target of serial killers. it's not funny.
no, it's not. the saddest thing is that the rad-fems actually contribute to this situation by insisting that all sex work is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). if we're already raped and beaten down and abused, how can it hurt to actually [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) us? this is the position that most judges take in cases of sex worker [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)...it didn't really violate you, did it? not like it would violate a 'regular' woman? surely wh*res should be comfortable with being used and abused? it's just part of the job description, right?

Opebo

08-10-09, 11:26

Before answering your question, I’d like to ask if you are sociopath by nature or by force of logic? Do you have a medical condition which inhibits your ability to act morally, or do you abstractly regard the idea of moral prohibitions as a farce and act accordingly? Within my personal, human limits, I’m in the latter category. The reason I ask which category you are in is your assertion that you “never dehumanize anyone.” I find this incredible if you are not a sociopath by nature.

I'm only talking about belief, Gedanken, not action. Of course like most people my actions, at least on the surface, are perfectly conformist. But I don't take 'morality' seriously in any sense. I refrain from dehumanizing people simply because it would be a ridiculous pretense - they are humans after all.

Turning to your question: For me, dehumanisation is the process of viewing a fellow human being as something other than my equal, something other than fully human.

I don't see why one would need to do this just in order to pay someone for sex, or fuck them in the ass, or something like that. I guess I just don't consider those things to be so bad.

Anyway just because someone is 'an object of sexual gratification' from my point of view, it doesn't mean she isn't all those other things she may be. I'm just naturally more focused on the sexual aspect (though not totally to the exclusion of other aspects). I just don't see this as 'dehumanization' or even particularly negative for the other person.

As for 'morality', sure it can't be anything more than socialization, unless you believe in god or ghosts or that sort of thing.

my goal: I want to sexually exploit extremely attractive women and not feel guilty about it. I have had a normal upbringing; I possess a perfectly-functioning moral faculty; my brain produces an emotional response when my moral faculty judges a course of action to be immoral;

I never feel guilty about this, nor do I find it to be 'immoral'. I really don't find it to be a big deal at all. To worry about it as much as you do, I suspect requires a traditional puritanical view of sex. For me its no different from ordering a nice meal in the restaurant.

ThatGuy865

08-10-09, 13:48

My goal: I want to sexually exploit extremely attractive women and not feel guilty about it. I have had a normal upbringing; I possess a perfectly-functioning moral faculty; my brain produces an emotional response when my moral faculty judges a course of action to be immoral;
I never feel guilty about this, nor do I find it to be 'immoral'. I really don't find it to be a big deal at all. To worry about it as much as you do, I suspect requires a traditional puritanical view of sex. For me its no different from ordering a nice meal in the restaurant.Then you guys wonder why beautiful women are so hard to approach. When there are guys like you two, who think sexually exploiting them is no big deal.

Gedanken

08-10-09, 21:09

Omigod...are you serious? (We REALLY need a 'sarcasm font' on this forum!)Not serious!!

Gedanken

08-10-09, 21:17

I'm only talking about belief, Gedanken, not action. Of course like most people my actions, at least on the surface, are perfectly conformist. But I don't take 'morality' seriously in any sense. I refrain from dehumanizing people simply because it would be a ridiculous pretense - they are humans after all.OK, then you and I are the same.

I don't see why one would need to do this just in order to pay someone for sex, or fuck them in the ass, or something like that. I guess I just don't consider those things to be so bad.I guess our view about it being immoral or not is different. If you honestly do not regard it as immoral, then you've no inertia to overcome. I do regard it as immoral, so have to avoid the guilt.

Anyway just because someone is 'an object of sexual gratification' from my point of view, it doesn't mean she isn't all those other things she may be. I'm just naturally more focused on the sexual aspect (though not totally to the exclusion of other aspects). I just don't see this as 'dehumanization' or even particularly negative for the other person.OK. I'd like to emphasise that I still see the girls as humans, just like you do, I just have a distorted view of them for the period that I see them. I still treat them nicely.

As for 'morality', sure it can't be anything more than socialization, unless you believe in god or ghosts or that sort of thing.See Hauser's work. He'd argue it isn't necessarily just down to socialisation.

I never feel guilty about this, nor do I find it to be 'immoral'. I really don't find it to be a big deal at all. To worry about it as much as you do, I suspect requires a traditional puritanical view of sex. For me its no different from ordering a nice meal in the restaurant.I don't feel guilty about it, but I do regard it as immoral. Yep, I had a hardcore Christian upbringing. I used to be a real radical when I was growing up, so perhaps I STILL have hang ups from my upbringing.

Gedanken

08-10-09, 21:22

then you guys wonder why beautiful women are so hard to approach. when there are guys like you two, who think sexually exploiting them is no big deal.the idea of moral prohibitions is a logical farce. i believe there is such a thing as right and wrong, but i see no reason why my behaviour should be subject to mroal constraints. that's on an abstract level. in the real world, i behave the same as anybody else; i'm appalled by poverty, [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and murder and all the other horrors of this world. i just see no reason not to go mongering because it's immoral. exploitation exists; exploitation is wrong; but on an abstract level, it doesn't matter.

opebo and i are not psychopaths, i'd ask you to re-read what we've posted.

Bango Cheito

08-10-09, 21:31

Here in Colombia (supposedly "3rd world") I just don't see the gross exploitation and misery of the sex workers. I see them only working one day a week by choice, I see them not showing up for work because they are lazy sows on occasion, and the only consequence they face is being let go just like in any other job. I also see them making more than the average income here, sometimes much more. Furthermore, I see them making money in direct proportion to how responsible and serious they are about their work. What a concept!

I am close to many sex professionals, and have even dabbled a bit in the industry myself. I know from direct personal experience that it is NOT emotionally or mentally damaging from EITHER end of the spectrum. If anything, I know some university age spoiled fucking BRATS here who would benefit from building their characters working a year fucking and sucking for money.

RN has already said it in spades, that data is far from being good data AT ALL. People sponsoring those studies have a clear agenda and are going on a witchhunt.

If you want to look at things realistically MARRIAGE is far more dangerous for women than prostitution. The statistics could blow your head off!

Gedanken

08-10-09, 21:52

then you guys wonder why beautiful women are so hard to approach. when there are guys like you two, who think sexually exploiting them is no big deal.sorry, but i find it hard to swallow that you're on an active member of sex-travel website and are telling two guys off for sexually exploiting good-looking women. what do you call fucking red-hot girls with no other real choice for $20 lt?

the depths of self-deception and straight delusion on this thread almost leave me speechless. opebo, you and i are exactly the same, thatguy865: we all fuck hot girls and don't feel guilty about it. i'm sorry if me explicitly expounding the process that we all use leaves you feeling uncomfortable. just because i follow the routine explicitly and consciously, whilst you opt for lashings of self-deception, it doesn't make you a better person.

Gedanken

08-11-09, 00:40

i'd like to scrap me previous response to this:

to worry about it as much as you do, i suspect requires a traditional puritanical view of sex. for me its no different from ordering a nice meal in the restaurant.i've had another think and i'm not going to let you steal the language from me here. this is not really to do with whether i have traditional views about sex (i have no problem with sex before marriage), since we are discussing prostitution. this is not just regular sex, but bought sex, and should be described as such.

when it comes to sexual relations: there are broadly three categories: sex (or substitute whatever term you want to use to describe consensual sex without payment), prostitution, and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).

we are discussing only the second category, thus your statement ought to be, "to worry about it as much as you do, i suspect requires a traditional puritanical view of prostitution." that sounds rather less credible. describing prostitution as immoral is hardly puritanical.

the way you phrased it allows you to compress the first two categories together and so sneak in your dismissal of my views about prostitution as "puritanical." the first two categories are distinct from each other, so my views on prostitution tell us nothing about what my views are about sex. what were are discussing is the morality, or otherwise, of the second (distinct) category. the language ought to reflect that fact.

Bango Cheito

08-11-09, 01:01

I think sex for money or other material benefits is much more natural than the institution of marriage; I agree wholeheartedly with Dickhead. Fucking shame it took me two marriages to realize :P

The sex for food thing was going on millions of years ago, LONG before there was ever such a thing as husband and wife. It's pretty much hard wired into our nature by now. Nor is there any good reason to fight it, except for to curb sexually transmitted diseases, which has now been largely nullified by modern medicine.

Chocha Monger

08-11-09, 02:05

Sorry, but I find it hard to swallow that you're on an active member of sex-travel website and are telling two guys off for sexually exploiting good-looking women.
Hmm... maybe it's because "he" is really a she in masquerade. We get quite a few of those on here trying to conduct studies, research for articles, or disrupt the forum.

Opebo

08-11-09, 09:42

Yes, I consider the view that prostitution is 'immoral' to be puritanical.

Chocha Monger

08-11-09, 14:21

Consensual sex without pay is like a six-legged frog in the Everglades. It happens but it is exceedingly rare. Sex is by nature a self serving activity. Men usually have sex solely for the pleasure and occasionally for other reasons. Women usually have sex for economic benefit, security, reproduction, companionship, social advancement and only incidentally for pleasure. I'm not even sure that altruistic sex even exists.

For clarity let me point out that I don't limit "pay" to mean monetary instruments or tangible goods. Pay can be other benefits like promotions or access to social groups. It can even be offspring from someone having desirable characteristics if broken down to a biological level.

Gedanken

08-11-09, 14:24

For me [prostitution] is no different from ordering a nice meal in the restaurant.I dealt with this at length here: http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=839310&postcount=3465

Warbucks

08-11-09, 15:13

No offence intended at any point, Dickhead. Please feel free to disagree with what I've written below. And finally, thanks very much for taking the time to share your thoughts.

You asked the question, "Right?" but I will have to give the reply, "Yes, but I disagree with what you say afterwards."

'Paying for sex = Paying for food' is your equation. It's important to remember that when we are equating two things we must be able to equate each of the relevant qualities. For example, a colourless rectangle has two variable qualities**: its length and its width. If I state the equation 'colourless rectangle 1 = colourless rectangle 2' to mean that 'the two rectangles are the same shape', then I must be able to equate the relevant qualities of length and width - both qualities. If the length of each is the same, but they have different widths, then our equation is not valid since they will have at least one differing quality and so will not be the 'same shape'.

** That's not strictly true, but I'm hoping the third is subtle enough for me to get away with ignoring it!

So we've got to be careful when making comparisons. For this and other another reason I'd actually like to restate your argument in more detail.

Our final end (or goal) in each case is satisfying some inescapable human desire. In our first case the end is to satisfy hunger; in the other it's to satisfy sexual desire. The means by which the first end is obtained is eating food; the means by which the second is obtained is ejaculation.

Eating food satisfies hunger.
|-MEANS--|--------END--------|
Ejaculation satisfies sexual desire.

In your scenario, there is also a second means-ends situation to consider: namely the method by which the means are procured. In both cases the means of satisfaction are acquired via the payment of money:

(I) Pay money to buy the means.
(II) Use that purchased means to satisfy the desire.

Or to use our specific examples:

(I) Pay money to buy some food.
(II) Eat the food to satsify the hunger.

(I) Pay money to buy an opportunity to fuck a hot girl.
(II) Actually fuck the hot girl and cum to satsify the horn.

That is the situation, two steps rather than one. Without this clarification it enables you to slip in a sneaky step which is otherwise hard to point out. What you tried to sneak in was the following shorter version:

(I) Pay money to satisfy the desire.

Or to use our specific examples:

(I) Pay money to satsify the hunger

(I) Pay money to satisfy the horn

The act of handing over money, the act of making a payment does not satisfy hunger or horn. Eating food and fucking do respectively satisfy hunger and horn. That should be clear enough.

Your argument then proceeds as follows:

First, you correctly note that hunger and sexual desire are both perfectly-normal, inescapable human feelings which will only go away if they are satisfied. Again: there is nothing wrong with feeling hunger or sexual desire, since they're perfectly normal and unavoidable, and they will return again and need to be 're-satisfied'. In this sense, you are right to say that hunger and sexual desire can be validly compared, and so we'll accept that comparison as legitimate for argument's sake and proceed.

This is where your sleight of hand sneaks in. The reason there is nothing wrong with what you describe is because there is nothing wrong with any of the two steps I pointed out above. You've used the shorter version of the argument in which payment of money is the means, rather than the method of acquiring the means. You can then claim (via this shorter, straightforward argument) that satisfying sexual desire (which we've already agreed is just like hunger) is also done by paying money, therefore there is nothing wrong with paying for sex.

Over all, your logic is follows:

a) There is nothing wrong with feeling hungry.
b) There is nothing wrong with eating food.
c) There is nothing wrong with paying for food.
d) Therefore it's OK to satisfy hunger by eating food bought with cash.

a)-d) is actually perfectly OK, but then you generalise this conclusion to all human desires, without any attempted, valid justification for such a generalisation:

It's OK to satisfy any normal human desire by using a means of satisfaction bought with cash.

Having assumed your generalisation to be correct, you then simply proceed to work backwards:

i) It's OK to satisfy any normal human desire by using a means of satisfaction bought with cash.
(ii) Sexual desire is a normal human desire.
(iii) A prostitute is a means of satisfaction bought with cash.
(iv) Therefore it's OK to satisfy sexual desire by fucking prostitutes.

Such a straightforward comparison just won't do because the whole question is whether there is anything wrong with the means of satisfaction in the case of prostitution - and the means is not paying money, as I've already explained. At no point did you justify assuming that general conclusion to be true.

I've criticised the logic of this argument, but there are other possible approaches that can be made by recalling our above discussion of qualities. I'll just give two of them:

Firstly, hunger and sexual desire are not human needs of the same sort. You will die if you do not satisfy your hunger, but you will not die if you do not satisfy sexual desire (though it feels otherwise). So your comparison of the two is not acceptable from this point of view.

Secondly, while there is only one way that a person can satisfy hunger (eating), there are two ways a person can quell sexual desire: wanking or fucking. So your comparison of the two is not acceptable from this point of view.

If I could be so brave, Dr. Gedanken will diagnose justification 1) in your case, Dickhead! It's not grocery shopping as you would like to believe. Rather it's the case that we all like that cheap, hot, exotic pussy, and can get away with enjoying it if we can justify it to ourselves. Personally I know it's wrong, but I can live with myself all the while I stick to paying for smoking-hot women and abusing them nicely.

I think Dickhead's a 'nice' monger!

Yeah, I agree, very succinctly put. That's what it comes down to for all of us, really. No justifying what we do, but then we don't care to justify it, do we? We just want to avoid feeling guilty about it so we can enjoy it. Or at least I know I do! =)

Genius type fucking (rebuttal) post. You from Germany and I am from one of Americas most notorious ghettos but we see eye to eye on a lot of shit.

These forums are good for something.

Gedanken

08-11-09, 16:42

yes, i consider the view that prostitution is 'immoral' to be puritanical.opebo, your repeated accusation made me sit and have a think. as expressed, my assertion that prostitution is immoral is indeed puritanical, and so i accept your criticism. so let me now take my own advice and be more precise about the language i'm using.

we started with the broad categories: regular sex, prostitution and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). only religious nuts regard regular sex outside of marriage as immoral. everyone agrees that [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) is immoral.

let's now create some further distinctions for the second category of prostitution:

1) pimped prostitution
2) pimp-free prostitution

i think 1) is immoral if the pimp is a trafficker or treats her/his girls in a nasty or controlling fashion. if the pimp is ok, i.e. if the pimp just takes her/his cut of the girl's income and treats them ok, then i don't regard pimped prostitution as immoral. i want to emphasis that i don't like any pimps any more than i like the capitalists. making a living on the back of other people's hard work is not something to be admired.

having expressed such noble, fine-sounding sentiments, i confess that most of the girls i've seen have had pimps and in only one case can i say that i knew for certain that the pimp was an ok person. that said, i'm not a total hypocrite because if the option ever presents i do intentionally take the pimp-free option. for example, i've previously mentioned a thai girl who i'd seen for whom i knew things would work out. (she might already be back in thailand now in spite of the fact that her website's still functioning). she used to advertise on escort agencies, but i looked her up and found she also had her own site: http://www.bonnie-escort-london.co.uk. i know if i call her via her site i cut out the pimp and she gets every last penny of her hard-earned money. so i contacted her direct. i do not regard seeing a girl like bonnie as immoral, though i regret that we live in a world where girls like her have to bite the bullet and become a wg to make a life for themselves. a good-looking, poor-world girl working in the rich-world is the best in my view: if she doesn't [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) her money down the drain on silly shit like clothes, ipods and plasma-screen tvs, then after a few years she'll take back a large stack of pounds (which translates to a large stack of baht) to start up her own business or whatever, plus be able to care of her family.

so anyway, let's expand category 2), though i'm ignoring some sub-categories and casting nuance to the wind:

i) rich-world girls earning good money
ii) poor-world girls earning relatively good money
iii) poor-world girls earning shit money

i have no problem with i), that is a pimp-free, rich-world girl earning good money. i don't have a problem with ii), that is a pimp-free, poor-world girl earning an income that is good for her country's standards.

so let's expand iii):

a) semi-pros
b) pros

i regard a) as ok; fucking a girl who chooses to fuck, pimp-free, for a bit of extra cash is ok in my books. i regard b) as not ok. i guess this is where the god-awful street-walking statistics come in. i don't see how any sane person can deny that prostitution in some, desperate circumstances is immoral.

well, looking at what i've just written, i guess i'm not as much of a puritan as i first thought... i guess i still have a few hang-ups about putting the above into practice. i just think it's sad that any girl chooses to make herself a fuck stick. still, perhaps i need to remember that in lots of circumstances it is the girl's choice.

Gedanken

08-11-09, 17:09

Genius type fucking (rebuttal) post. You from Germany and I am from one of Americas most notorious ghettos but we see eye to eye on a lot of shit.

These forums are good for something.Thank you, Illogic! You're right to guess at my being German on the basis of my username, but I am in fact a middle-class, White guy from London, England. I agree, it's weird how you and I, two people from such different backgrounds, can have such similar views on these things! Maybe it's a shame that I can't ever see myself going to the Philippines, perhaps it would have been interesting to have a beer one time!

Rubber Nursey

08-11-09, 17:45

For me its no different from ordering a nice meal in the restaurant.

Firstly, hunger and sexual desire are not human needs of the same sort. You will die if you do not satisfy your hunger, but you will not die if you do not satisfy sexual desire (though it feels otherwise). So your comparison of the two is not acceptable from this point of view. Secondly, while there is only one way that a person can satisfy hunger (eating), there are two ways a person can quell sexual desire: wanking or fucking. So your comparison of the two is not acceptable from this point of view.
Ok, so maybe it's a bit extreme to compare the need to eat, with the desire to copulate. Opebo's restaurant meal, however, is a perfect comparison.

I won't die if I don't eat dinner at a restaurant (have sex), because I can cook my own food (wank). However, if I choose to dine out (pay for sex), I don't have to do the grocery shopping (dating), cook the food (relationships), or clean up the mess (break-ups). The chef (hooker) is a professional who will cook my food exactly how I like it (two girls, a boy and a side-serve of DATY, thanks). And I can just kick back and selfishly enjoy the feast. :)

There is nothing inherently exploitative about purchasing a freely offered service. Nothing. Some people cut hair, draw up legal documents, service cars, design clothes, unblock toilets, build houses, write music, nurse the sick, etc etc etc. Other people sell sex. All employees have varying levels of job satisfaction, workplace standards and diverse reasons for choosing the occupation they chose. All jobs have their upsides and downsides. Some jobs pay high wages to unskilled workers (mining, defence, crayfishing); some highly skilled workers are paid a pittance (nurses, teachers, authors). Some occupations are unfairly stigmatised (loggers, abortionists, abattoir workers) or disliked (politicians, bankers, police). Many employees spend most of their working life wishing they were doing something else. I'm sorry, but I fail to see how sex work is any different, IN ANY WAY, to any or all of these occupations.

Rubber Nursey

08-11-09, 18:11

I just think it's sad that any girl chooses to make herself a fuck stick.
Let's just make one thing very clear. YOU think she is "choosing to make herself a fuck stick", because that's how YOU see sex workers. YOU think she's degraded, because YOU think sex work is degrading.

SHE, on the other hand, may see herself as empowered, or financially independent, or a sex goddess, or as simply doing the best she can for her family. In HER mind, she is not degrading herself. YOU are degrading her in YOUR mind. That's what's sad.

You have issues with prostitution and are transferring those issues onto the women you have sex with. You feel guilty and ashamed and can't reconcile your actions with your personal beliefs, so you assume she must feel the same. (Or perhaps you blame her for facilitating your behaviour?) But those feelings are yours, not hers.

Gedanken

08-11-09, 18:26

Consensual sex without pay is like a six-legged frog in the Everglades. It happens but it is exceedingly rare. Sex is by nature a self serving activity.I'm sure some people find it annoying that I pick up on everything said on this thread, but I have a crusade against self-deception to wage!

Chocha Monger, I really must insist that something does not become true because you say that is so. Contrary to what you assert, human culture generally suggests the opposite: sex at its best is a loving activity between two emotionally mature humans. Most people want to meet someone who they love and who loves them back. I did not, nor did anyone I grew up with, grow up dreaming of handing over money to girls to fuck them. Sheakespeare did not have Romeo handing over a couple of hundred euros to Juliet. Romeo and Juliet loved each other from across the barricades; they loved each other so much that they were prepared to risk everything for each other - so much so, in fact, that they killed themselves rather than carry on living without the other. That is the kind of male-female relationship I see desired and celebrated by the overwhelming majority of people, including intellectuals.

If what you are saying were true, one of the greatest things about humans - the capacity for deep, meaningful, romantic love for each other - would not exist, let alone be great. It would be good to acknowledge and keep in mind that many of the guys on this forum, myself included, have forsaken falling in love and instead opted for a life of lovelessly fucking smoking-hot girls. I know that I'm never again going to hear a girl genuinely say the words, "I love you," to me. Sure, some hot-but-poor girl who wants out might say them to me, but I'm not naive and so I know to just ignore them. She doesn't love me, she just wants a British passport. Once she's got that passport, she'll leave me. I don't deceive myself, any sane monger doesn't either.

Men usually have sex solely for the pleasure and occasionally for other reasons. Women usually have sex for economic benefit, security, reproduction, companionship, social advancement and only incidentally for pleasure. I'm not even sure that altruistic sex even exists.I'm going to have to insist for some independent reviews of the bulk of academic studies of such questions which allow you to say such things. Men and women both have sex sometimes for carnal pleasure, sometimes for a deep connection with someone they love.

For clarity let me point out that I don't limit "pay" to mean monetary instruments or tangible goods. Pay can be other benefits like promotions or access to social groups. It can even be offspring from someone having desirable characteristics if broken down to a biological level.I think this can again be applied both ways: I don't think it's controversial that some women get 'payment' by going for wealthier guys, and that some men get 'payment' by going for prettier girls. Perhaps I've misunderstood you here, but I think men and women are not as different as I think you're suggesting. I'm just warying of making a point by excessive generalising.

Gedanken

08-11-09, 18:48

Let's just make one thing very clear...Always nice to meet someone who makes you think, Rubber Nursey. Let me think about what you've said, much of which seems fair at face value... It's killing me not knowing whether you were once an escort! Suspicions obviously arise that you a monger who's out to convince others, and so himself, that mongering is OK.

Dickhead

08-11-09, 18:56

Yes, I consider the view that prostitution is 'immoral' to be puritanical.

Me too. The view that any kind of sex between two consenting adults is immoral is the very definition of puritanical.

Dickhead

08-11-09, 19:03

Gedanken for Christ's sakes do a search of Rubbie's posts. Yes, she was an escort, a hooker. She's also an advocate/activist. And, she's also very bright and not a complete hypocrite like you are.

Bango Cheito

08-11-09, 19:11

Exactly. I do something for a living (music) that most people would WANT to do and envy the fact that I can do something creative for a living. And certainly I'm proud of it and would never do anything else. But the average person has NO IDEA how hard my life is. Many people get out of it for ironically many of the same reasons people get out of prostitution.

Rubber Nursey

08-11-09, 19:46

It's killing me not knowing whether you were once an escort! Suspicions obviously arise that you a monger who's out to convince others, and so himself, that mongering is OK.
LOL. It's no secret ...half my life story is on this site! I've sold sex and I've paid for sex. I've worked in brothels, privately with other girls, privately in my own home and as an escort (both privately and for an agency). The only thing I've never done is street work, mostly because it's highly criminalised where I live and also because this city is too small not to be recognised. If I'd lived in Sydney, though, I totally would have tried it out. ;) I officially 'retired' a few years ago - and for the record, I left because my life circumstances changed, not because I wanted to leave the industry. I'd go back to it in a flash.

Carlos Primeros

08-11-09, 19:55

Hi Gedanken,

It is nice having somebody on the board with so noble thoughts (Gedanken).

Can you accept that love and sex are two different things and that it is the nicest thing in the world to make sex with somebody you love. But making sex with somebody you just met and which you pay for the service is also ok if you do not get "love" thrown in (and this happens only rarely and absolute voluntarily)

I accept life as it is. If you are lucky and meet a girl which is smoking hot and which you love and the love is returned. Congratulations then. Then you have done everything right in life and life was good to you.

If you are not so lucky. Make the best out of life. Like Monty Phyton. (Allways walk on the bright side of.) Then you have to pay for the sex. You might be lucky having a partner which loves you and which gives you good sex as well. I personally am a monger, I have a good partner but I like to enjoy also other skin, other smell and other sexual acts. It is like eating in a good restaurant all the time an excellent dish. I like the variaty and therefore I monger.

Therefore girls which provide me with these services have my respect. They have their thoughts about why they work as a prostitute but I am really not in the faintest interested why they do it. For me it is ok that they do it. (Why designe a new car when the old type is running well? ) I am not a pholosopher. As you appear to be and I do not have these nobel thoughts. (in German: ich mache mir keine GEDANKEN)

Otherwise I enjoy your reports. Keep on with it.

Carlos

Opebo

08-11-09, 20:32

YOU think she is "choosing to make herself a fuck stick", because that's how YOU see sex workers. YOU think she's degraded, because YOU think sex work is degrading.

You have issues with prostitution and are transferring those issues onto the women you have sex with. You feel guilty and ashamed and can't reconcile your actions with your personal beliefs, so you assume she must feel the same. (Or perhaps you blame her for facilitating your behaviour?) But those feelings are yours, not hers.

Men like our Gedanken are, I think, attached to the idea that sex, as it is normally performed, is degrading to the woman or feminine partner(s) - that 'being fucked' is by nature degrading. I believe they see this as acceptable within a 'relationship' because the degraded party gets something she wants out of the arrangement - security, 'love', etc. This is just what society has taught us.

Of course part of this is misogyny - the view that femininity, and its practice in a sexual role, is inferior or degraded. I don't think the reason traditional prudes disapprove of prostitution is so much because of prostitution itself as because they actually disapprove of sex, and particularly sex for women, accept in situations where a great deal of pretense has been made to 'make up for' the hideous imposition of being fucked (such as marriage, relationships, etc.)

Chocha Monger

08-11-09, 20:57

Dear Gedanken, ever the romantic. I assure you that I have loved every woman that I have ever fucked, even the ones who wanted a direct transfer of currency. You see, Gedanken my love is very short but sweet. You see the longer I am with a girl the more likely I am to notice her faults. When I love her for a few hours the perfect memory is captured in my mind forever. I will never lose my love for her and become disillusioned because she has grown fat, old, wrinkled, gray and toothless. Neither will I ever complain about her laziness, nagging and squandering of money. Surely, you cannot doubt me because love is an emotion which cannot be measured. It is subjective. Love cannot be quantified by any scientific units of measure. When a woman says that she loves you, you take her word for it. Perhaps, you try to judge her sincerity by her actions but actions can be misinterpreted. So it’s really her word. Maybe the poor girl loves you and has no wish to serve the queen only you. However, since you have no foolproof way of verifying this you look upon her wretched circumstances and assume that most probably she is being insincere out of desperation. That is not always the case is it Gedanken?

Now, Gedanken, you said “human culture” suggests the opposite. Are you sure that you didn’t mean to say Western culture suggests the opposite? I ask this because according to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook, of the 1231 societies noted, 186 were monogamous. 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had more frequent polygyny, and 4 had polyandry. So one man loving one woman is not the predominant model of things aspired to unless we choose to recognize Western societies only and reject the others. Please consider the following study by Baker and Bellis.

“In a block of flats in Liverpool, they found by genetic tests that fewer than four in every five people were the sons of their ostensible fathers. In case this had something to do with Liverpool, they did the same tests in southern England and got the same result… Like birds, women may be – quite unconsciously – having it both ways by conducting affairs with genetically more valuable men while not leaving their husbands.” – The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature, Ridley

So am I deceiving myself, Gedanken? Pray tell why these good English women from a wealthy industrialized nation are cuckolding their husbands? Could it be that everyone including the intellectuals are saying one thing but doing another. The story of Romeo and Juliet is a tough yarn to live up to isn’t it? How many of these kind of relationships have you see in reality? If the majority of people are aspiring to this kind of love the quantifiable results are not very encouraging. I dare say that the wh*remasters are living with much more integrity and honor than the romantics.

“The renowned anthropologist G.P. Murdoch, in his classic study Social Structure, found that of 238 different human societies around the globe, monogamy was enforced as the only acceptable marriage system in a mere 43. Thus before contact with the West, on average more than 80 percent of human societies were preferentially polygynous, meaning that male harem-keeping was something that most men sought to attain. It is safe to say that institutionalized monogamy was very rare.” – The Myth of Monogamy, Barash and Lipton

Even now, Gedanken, young men are training to strap high explosive vests unto themselves and commit suicide attacks against both our countries in the hopes of spending eternity fucking 72 perpetual virgins. That is the reality of the world sir, not Romeo and Juliet.