The Morality of Prostitution

[Jelly Donut]

I think it's fair to state that most WGs in poor countries would not be in the trade if they'd been born in a rich country, and so do not really want to be doing what they do..

Prostituion exists in all countries regardless of per capita income. It would not go away even if everyone in your country earned twice-over what they do. It's not like demand vaporizes just because you cross a border or double your income.

The supply and transactions about it become more nuanced. Most people (and social scientists and an un-or-under-employed 20-something guy) do not see it because it's more costly and abstract to follow. It's easy to gain interviews with many prostitutes in most poor countries. In contrast, in the United States, for instance, girls like Ashley Dupre or Julissa Brisman - they don't want the attention. They want the money and, at the same time, they want to present themselves to young men as a "regular" girl. Not much point to talking to the media, lovers and researchers about the dirty details when you have those balls in the air.

So to speak.


Sheakespeare did not have Romeo handing over a couple of hundred euros to Juliet.

The important take-away from R&J is both of them end up dead. If either Romeo or Juliet had any experience with life they would not have been so quick to pull the trigger. Romeo and Juliet is a cautionary tale, not a love story. Old Yeller is a love story. I think you will find this is true in most classic lit - the man/hero hardly ever gets married. Love is not the most important thing. Think it through - Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, King Lear - these men have problematic situations with women. I don't care if your reading anything from Don Quixote to The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn to The Invisible Man - the goal is not to 'fall in love'. Only in Crime and Punishment do you have reciprocal love and a 'happy' ending - a hero and a hooker, they end up in hard Siberia. Guy de Maupassant. You can learn something from these stories.

You may be thinking of Walt Disney adaptations of famous tales. Boy meets girl, falls in love, they fly off into the sunset. Be careful. Those will f*ck up your life (except, of course, Old Yeller).


I thank only the Russians for defeating the Nazis!!

If you are British you should be proud of it. Newton. Darwin. That large-breasted German woman who runs the country. As an American, I can't even express the full scope of what the sea of white stone at the St. Laurent Cemetery in France means to me. It makes me feel pretty lucky and humble.


j.d.

[Dickhead]

"Not much point for p4p when you can score on your charms."

I disagree. If you "score on your charms" there can still be a lot of undesirable fallout. Collateral damage, if you will. Look at Rick Pitino, Kobe Bryant, etc. Unwanted pregnancy comes to mind as well (see: Pitino, R.)

Of course, p4p is dangerous in the Yew Ess: Look at Spitzer, Dumb Fuck Redneck Hypocrite Governor From Whatever State We Should Have Let Secede 150 Years Ago, etc.

But that is a knock on the Yew Ess and not on prostitution.

[Rubber Nursey]

I really burned out on commercial sex in the past few years, I'm dating regular girls for the next little while to see what it's like. So far I'm finding it to be a bit of a pain in the ass :P
I reckon it's just a 'grass is greener' issue. When we're running around having sex with strangers (paid or otherwise), we start craving the friendship, romance, security, etc of a relationship. When we're in a relationship, we start craving the freedom, excitement, variety, etc of shagging strangers.

Once you tire of the mind-fuck of emotional relationships, you'll probably run back to the simple honesty and freedom of P4P. After a while you'll probably start feeling empty and unloved, and head back into relationships. I've spent the last 20 years doing much the same thing. I'm never happy with what I've got.

[Chocha Monger]

Jelly Donut,

I wasn't referring to Gedanken when I mentioned disruption of the forum. I was referring to a pro-American woman poster whose posts are inconsistent with those of someone who is actually a monger. There were a number of contradictory posts from this individual that lead me to believe that it is actually a woman masquerading as a guy in an attempt to study mongers on the forum for some lame thesis or just to be a pain in the ass. That's the guy I was referring to.

[Chocha Monger]

Chinese prostitutes more trustworthy than government officials.
http://www.fijilive.com/news/2009/08/05/18950.Fijilive

[Jelly Donut]

I wasn't referring to Gedanken
Playing catch-up on the thread. I struck that bit.

[Tuxsmasher]

Naturally, travelling is often necessary in this hobby, and with it comes much unwanted attention. I've only started this year, but as time passes, people's curiousity will take the better of them, and start to wonder why is this guy travelling all the time? 'why is he going to so many places or the same place? There's only so many excuses one can make. Obviousely, not all of us want to share what we do with our family/friends. I've only told one friend. Even if they found out, I'm not going to stop. I absolutely love it. But I'll do my best to keep it my little secret.

I'm wondering if any of you had problems keeping this a secret and how do you deal with it? Please share.

(mod I wasn't sure where to post this, feel free to move it to it's rightfull place, if so)

[Dickhead]

I don't see why the sheer volume of trips would be a problem. Just tell them you like to travel. If it's recent that you started travelling, tell them you've "been bitten by the travel bug." If the issue is that you are going to famous/notorious mongering places (to me only Thailand would raise eyebrows for very many people), just lie about where you went. Download some pictures of the Eiffel Tower off the internet, read some bullshit about the Arc d'Triomphe, and tell 'em you went to Paris. Of course there are plenty of hookers in Paris but really, once you get outside of the US and (most of) Canada, there are hookers pretty much everywhere. But most people in the US/English-speaking Canada are too naïve to know this. I can't tell for sure from your post whether you're American/Canadian or not but by the writing style my guess is yes.

I am very open with everyone I know except those connected with my job. If they don't like what I do they can go fuck themselves. There have been a few conversations but I haven't lost any friends over it. If I would have, they probably weren't very solid friendships to begin with. But work is a different story. As they say here: "Si no hay trabajo no hay plata. Si no hay plata no hay comida. Si no hay comida no hay vida." No work, no money; no money, no food; no food, no life. And that holds true if you substitute "hookers" for "food."

My co-workers constantly ask me why I live in Argentina and I say it's because it's cheap and has good food. Before that it was why I went to Costa Rica all the time. "Ecoturism and lepidoptery." Before that it was why I went to México all the time. I'd give them some crap about Mayan archeology and they'd get bored pretty quick and stop asking.

[Goga Fung]

Naturally, travelling is often necessary in this hobby, and with it comes much unwanted attention. I've only started this year, but as time passes, people's curiousity will take the better of them, and start to wonder why is this guy travelling all the time? 'why is he going to so many places or the same place? There's only so many excuses one can make. Obviousely, not all of us want to share what we do with our family/friends. I've only told one friend. Even if they found out, I'm not going to stop. I absolutely love it. But I'll do my best to keep it my little secret.

I'm wondering if any of you had problems keeping this a secret and how do you deal with it? Please share.

(mod I wasn't sure where to post this, feel free to move it to it's rightfull place, if so)I think the best is tell only the truth, never lie. If you lie about the place where you go, then when you eventually get caught, its 100% (passport stamps, sharing stories to others, sun tan, etc..), people would know you do something wrong.

But the truth does not mean to tell everything. Get some friends there, learn their language, and better do some business. Then it's gonna be simple you go there to see friends, learn foreign language and do biz.

when I lived with one GF, I was still going to Curacao and Central Asia like i was visiting friends and family. She was not dumb, and one or two times she told me "I know you go there just to fuck other girls". And I told her "Are you out of your mind, if I wanna fuck another girl, I can go to a massage parlor here and do it for $150. But for each trip I spend at least $2000-$3000. If i wanted to cheat on you I could do it in a much cheaper and easier way". After that she stopped asking, she also knew I never go to massage parlors, so she was satisfied with my reasons. Like I was faithful to her.

Also soon another girl is going to move in for a few months, and she already knows i got some biz going on in Curacao and South America. I warned her I'm gonna travel, I'm like a busy person have some shit going on there, and she said that's fine.

So if its possible to travel while living with a GF, then it should be even much easier to explain it to your friends and family. Just always tell the truth, take lots of nice pictures, visit museums, don't do only whoring around:) Always worked nice for me.

If somebody tells you "we know there are some hot women, that's why you go there". Reply "of course, and here too, hot women are everywhere in the world".

So it never been a problem for me. When you go somewhere you can check out some local events, like you go for some show, expo, concert or carnaval. I went to Rio for the Carnaval and of course for lots of garotas. But who is gonna blame me for that? They can fuck themselves.

[Jelly Donut]

Please share.

In the past, I've used recreation to explain things. For instance, if you want to spend a lot of time in Venezuela or the Dominican Republic there are places in those countries which are very popular for windsurfing. You'll find far more windsurfers in Cabarete, than sex-tourists, but it's got plenty of opportunities for meeting girls and is just down the road from Sosua. So, if windsurfing is your thing, you don't have to lie to take a vacation in a place that happens to be good for womanizing. If you couple this with, say, an interest in learning Spanish (which is, of course, entirely normal in the USA) you've got two true stories you can talk about, ahead of the true story you do not want to talk about.

Praia De Alvor is a popular wind spot just south of Lisbon; I don't know Portugal, but it seems like you've spent some time there.

Learning many of the so-called 'strategic languages' (Chinese, Russian, Thai, Indonesian; see the National Language Service Corps USA) might also interest you and generate the image of an industrious man, moving forward through history, etc. Still, to echo DH, spending a lot of time in Thailand and Brazil is going to raise eyebrows; most people will assume you are a sex tourist. You can't do anything about that.

If you have folks in your family that are likely to bluntly ask about your travels over a holiday dinner, you have to anticipate that situation and how you will respond. It's a difficult situation when you want to be honest with people you are close to, but simply don't want their judgment or interference.

With time, I gave up with most pretense and simply admitted to having a girlfriend overseas. This is the truth, of a stripe, and enough to slow down most 'judgmental' conversation. Curiously I've found that being an implicit sex tourist makes me more attractive to women in the United States. I don't know why this is the case, maybe I'm a more interesting and difficult project. I can't recommend spilling your adventures as a dating tip.

At any rate, I'm lucky my family is not as mechanized and judgmental as some. Only one ancient aunt who is outwardly concerned to stop my indiscriminate ways and settle down. I don't know your circumstances, but ultimately, this "moral question" is probably only your problem to the degree to which you want it to be your problem.

[Gedanken]

a brief aside on language, logic and self-deception:

many people on this thread, and elsewhere, fail to note the an obvious distinction between a choice made under some kind of duress and a free choice. their failure to note this distinction is part and parcel of their self-deception.

imagine a situation where an armed man has broken into a woman’s home. the man gives the woman a choice between being raped and being murdered. her choice is obviously made under duress, since the man is armed and dangerous. confronted with these two options, the women thinks that being raped is her least bad option, and so she chooses to be raped instead of murdered. does any sane person then argue that being raped was her choice, and therefore she wasn’t actually raped at all?

why, then, do i forever see arguments like this one, regarding poor-world girls who are in prostitution under the duress of poverty: “sure, she’s only in prostitution because it’s her least-bad option; but it’s her choice to be a prostitute, so everything’s ok.”

throwing the word ‘choice’ about allows some people to deceive themselves into thinking all poor-world mongering is morally acceptable; alas, self-deception makes no sense.

“but the girl often gets really wet during our time together!” yes, and some [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) victims have orgasms: does that mean some [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) victims actually enjoy being raped? “i would never, never want to deliver the message to anyone that they have the right to take away a woman’s autonomy over her body. i hammer home with my students, ‘arousal is not consent.’” ( http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all) that being the case, a girl’s arousal during a mongering session tells us nothing definitive about whether she genuinely enjoys her work.

the flawed assertion, “she’s wet, so she must be genuinely enjoying it,” allows some people to deceive themselves that poor-world mongering is morally acceptable because the girl (seemingly) enjoys herself.

end of aside.

---

wow, this really is turning into gedanken vs. isg!! there is too much to reply to here in one go, so i’ll have to do it in batches.

i must say that i’m feeling a little bit more heat behind some of the responses to my politely arguments, and sarcasm levels are most certainly increasing! anyone would think my lone, dissenting voice posed some kind of unwelcome challenge to mongers who opt for self-deception!! it was chekov who observed that, "love, friendship, and respect do not unite one another as much as a common hatred for something."

maintaining my usual composure, i will begin at the following post by rn and deal with the more recent ones later - apologies in advance if i’ve misunderstood anything someone’s said or what i say comes across offensively:


lol. it's no secret...i guess i meant more that at the end of it all, anyone can say anything they want on here. in an anonymous setting such as this, there’s just no way to definitively prove that you are who you say you are. as a result, i always entertain a healthy minimum of scepticism. thus my view of rubber nursey must remain: “she might not be a former escort.”


i do something for a living (music) that most people would want to do and envy the fact that i can do something creative for a living.you are indeed very lucky to be doing a creative job! pity those who don’t.


yes, [rn] was an escort, a hooker... she's also very bright and not a complete hypocrite like you are.i must again insist that rubbie’s posts can tell me nothing definite about her.

i take issue, dickhead, with your accusation that i am a hypocrite. let me repeat my position: morality meaningfully exists; morality is not solely a product of socialisation; and morality is a farce. so it is that if i can get something i want by acting immorally without feeling guilty and without getting caught, then i see no reason not to act. this is not to say that i act immorally all the time, or even that i act upon every immoral impulse.

in most respects, i am perfectly normal: helping people makes me happy, so often i help people; and, generally speaking, making people feel sad makes me sad, so i don’t treat people badly. the overall situation is this: i always satisfy moral desires, and i satisfy immoral desires if i can get away with doing so and would not feel guilty. all this is hardly a saintly manner in which to conduct oneself, but i couldn’t care less. it is this cold-hearted selfishness which is not normal.

i said that i tend not to do something immoral if i know i’ll feel guilty about it. sometimes, however, i desperately want to behave immorally in a way which would unavoidably result in feelings of guilt. mongering in poor countries is such a thing. in such circumstances, i will condition myself so that i can act immorally without feeling guilty. it is the many on this thread who have the need - yes, need - to see all prostitution as morally acceptable, for otherwise they would feel guilty about it; i have no such need.

i regard most poor-world mongering as immoral, but i really want to enjoy cheap mongering, so i have conditioned myself so that i can do it and not feel guilty about it. if i want something badly and that thing happens to be immoral, i just work around the fact. i have no need for self-deception, and so in particular i have no need to convince myself that something which is immoral actually isn’t. you deceive yourself and see something immoral as something morally acceptable; i manipulate myself so i can do something immoral without feeling guilty. the result is the same: we both fuck hot girls and neither of us feels guilty about it.

self-deception is irrational and based on flawed premises. it brings us things like the iraq war which is something immoral and something that i didn’t want. in most ways i am normal, so i didn’t want to see people blown to pieces by western missiles or brutally tortured to death by the radical muslims such missiles create - and i’m not a hypocrite because of that.

think of me as a less needy, non-suicidal svidrigailov. behaving this way means people will condemn me, and of course the lovely dunya could never love me; however, my response to condemnation and rejection consists not of pulling the trigger, but of two words: “so what?”

i accept that morality is a farce; i accept that i like to be free; i accept that i am not a psychopath; and i accept that there is no god. with those four things in mind, i live my life. i am not a hypocrite for not acting immorally all the time, or for sometimes feeling guilty when i do something wrong; if such an accusation is made then i’d suggest that the accuser has misunderstood what i’ve said. at any given moment i’m just doing what i want. i am not a hypocrite if i merely point out that such and such an action is immoral.


me too. the view that any kind of sex between two consenting adults is immoral is the very definition of puritanical.just like opebo, you’re begging the question ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/begging_the_question).

i promise i’ll get back to you about those sources you so kindly took the trouble to post, rn!! i want to juxtapose two things you said:

quote 1: let's just make one thing very clear. you think she is "choosing to make herself a fuck stick", because that's how you see sex workers.

quote 2: you have issues with prostitution and are transferring those issues onto the women you have sex with. you feel guilty and ashamed and can't reconcile your actions with your personal beliefs, so you assume she must feel the same. i’d argue that these are two contradictory accusations. on the one hand, if i viewed wgs as mere fuck sticks, i wouldn’t feel guilty for treating them as such. on the other hand, if i felt guilty about prostitution, it would be because i felt that the wgs were not mere fuck sticks and so didn’t deserve to be treated as such.


she, on the other hand, may see herself as empowered, or financially independent, or a sex goddess, ...what if she sees herself as a piece of fried chicken? by that i mean that an examination has to be made of the overall nature of the relationship. just because one party in some relationship thinks that the relationship is ok, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is. indeed, just because both parties in a relationship think that the relationship is ok, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is. let me give a hypothetical example to help explain what i mean more clearly.

consider a slave in roman times who was treated well by her master. slavery in her society was widespread, socially acceptable and so on. the master did not feel guilty for owning a slave since he did not see himself as an exploiter; the slave accepted the apparently ‘natural order’ of things and so did not feel exploited. does that mean that under such circumstances slavery is ok? just because a well-treated slave doesn’t regard herself as exploited, and her exploiter feels no guilt (because he does not see himself as an exploiter), it doesn’t mean that she isn’t being exploited. it doesn’t matter how the slave or the master feel about things: she’s still a slave. (if you don’t like this hypothetical, historical example for whatever reason, do just say; there are non-hypothetical, contemporary ones i can use instead).

now, the only difference when we move away from nicely treated slaves who aren’t fully cognisant of their situation, and consider poor-world wgs who are trapped in the trade by poverty, is that such wgs are fully cognisant of their situation: they know perfectly well that they are being exploited. i say exploited because in such cases the girl participates only grudgingly: she feels prostitution is her least-bad option. she can see the bleeding obvious for herself: the rich, foreign guys who fuck her are taking full advantage of her unfortunate situation in life - and their own fortunate situation - to gain cheap access to the most personal, private parts of her body. surely no one would seriously suggest that such a girl “feels empowered” or “like a sex goddess”, i.e. that such a girl feels empowered by being rendered so utterly helpless and submissive by poverty? under such conditions, any girl who sees herself as empowered is nothing more than a contented slave.


... or as simply doing the best she can for her family.i can’t help but automatically admire any girl who puts herself through last-resort prostitution so she can take care of her family.


in her mind, she is not degrading herself. you are degrading her in your mind.whether sex work is degrading in all circumstances depends on whether it is true that for a girl to be treated as though she were a fuck stick is degrading in even the best of circumstances.

leaving that as an open question, you are quite correct: i see sex workers as human fuck sticks during the time i am with them. i turn up; i pay them; i fuck them; i leave. sure, you can mention the inane small talk we make between rounds, but the primary reason to see a wg is to fuck her. perhaps i’m misunderstanding the definition of prostitution, but the nature of a punter-wg relationship is, by definition, what i described: punter turns up; punter hands over money; punter fucks escort; punter leaves escort (and he will probably never see her again). for the majority of their time spent together, the interaction between punter and escort is loveless fucking.

yes, loveless fucking. from the girl’s point of view, if you love someone, you don’t charge them access to your body, you give it to them freely (i can’t recall a case where a wife charges her husband money on their wedding night, or any other night for that matter). from the guy’s point of view, i’ll remark that as a child i learnt to judge people by their actions, not by empty words: the molotov-ribbentrop pact declared the brutal partition of poland to be “a sure foundation for a lasting peace in eastern europe.” anyone can say anything they want. the guy’s actions consist of paying, fucking, and then leaving a girl - the overwhelming majority of the time never to see her again. such perfunctory, one-off encounters are not the tell-tale signs of one’s love for another. when a guy loves a girl, having sex with her is simply one part of a much fuller, rounded, deeper relationship. with a wg, fucking her is the relationship. again, when a guy sees a girl it’s because he wants to fuck her; anything else that happens is the merest coincidence or piffling irrelevance.

unless we are to entertain the most farcical delusions about the very definition of prostitution, for the period of time that a punter sees a wg she is primarily there to be fucked. listening to some of what’s said on this thread, anyone would think guys go to a prostitute to enjoy some stand-up comedy or to discuss the haussmannisation of paris, and wouldn’t even be bothered if they didn’t have sex. maybe i’m wrong, maybe guys really are after witty, intelligent conversation when they’re emptying their balls down a girl’s throat, but frankly i don’t find the idea particularly credible.


[p]erhaps you blame her for facilitating your behaviour? as kant insisted, ‘ought’ requires ‘can’: you and i are responsible for what we do and what we can do; we have no responsibility for things which other people do which we can’t do anything about. take the women in, say, china who will be raped today: there is nothing i can do about it, so my moral responsibility for their them being raped is zero. take the poor people who died in the recent typhoon-related devastation in taiwan: there’s nothing i can do about natural disasters, so i am not responsible for their deaths. as my final example of this elementary principle being applied, i’ll state clearly that it is i who am responsible for going to see wgs, nobody else.


ok, so maybe it's a bit extreme to compare the need to eat, with the desire to copulate. opebo's restaurant meal, however, is a perfect comparison. [snip]i feel that opebo’s analogy was no better or worse than dickhead’s. it think it might, perhaps, be the case that you've misread my criticism of dickhead’s analogy, since opebo’s analogy really was logically the same as dickhead’s: opebo’s analogy replaces the word ‘supermarket’ with ‘restaurant’, and uses the words ‘nice meal’ instead of ‘food’. my criticism of dickhead’s analogy (and opebo’s) was that it begged the question; i didn’t claim that dickhead’s analogy was wrong by virtue of an extreme comparison. with these observations in mind, i feel there’s no need for me to go through everything else that you posted about opebo’s analogy (everything that i snipped).


there is nothing inherently exploitative about purchasing a freely offered service.i agree. i not regard rich-world wgs, or their poor-world equivalents earning relatively good money in their poor country, as exploited. see the opening discussion about free choices. if you intended your statement to apply for the other categories of prostitution, then i’ll say that, like dickhead and opebo, you’re begging the question.



... reading about the effects of it in state department reports doesn't really bother me, since it's just a bunch of percentages.[t]his does make you seem like an arsehole.i’m going to insist that the overwhelming majority (all?) of humans are also arseholes; indeed, our dear leaders know this only too well. for example, you can check out the most recent bulletin of the atomic scientists, specifically hugh gusterson’s article hiroshima and the power of pictures (http://thebulletin.org/web-edition/columnists/hugh-gusterson/hiroshima-and-the-power-of-pictures).

thirty-one days after the blast, a team of u.s. scientists flew over the city. “there was just one enormous, flat, rust-red scar, and no green or grey” philip morrison told the new yorker in 1946, “because there were no roofs or vegetation left. i was pretty sure then that nothing i was going to see later would give me as much of a jolt.” the world has very few photographs of what gave morrison that unforgettable jolt. this is no accident. on september 18, 1945, just over a month after japan had surrendered, the u.s. government imposed a strict code of censorship on the newly defeated nation. it read, in part: “nothing shall be printed which might, directly or by inference, disturb public tranquility.”not seeing, or choosing not to see, the effects of your immoral actions is crucial for any normal person if you are going to live without guilt. why do we think us governments were able to drop a total of 2,756,941 tons ( http://www.yale.edu/cgp/walrus_cambodiabombing_oct06.pdf) of ordinance on cambodia, more than ten-percent of it completely indiscriminately? do you think they’d have been able to go through with it if they’d have chosen to see and listen to the effects of it on ordinary cambodians?

we heard a terrifying noise which shook the ground; it was as if the earth trembled, rose up and opened beneath our feet. enormous explosions lit up the sky like huge bolts of lightning; it was the american b-52s.a single b-52d “big belly” payload consists of up to 108 225-kilogram or 42 340-kilogram bombs, which are dropped on a target area of approximately 500 by 1,500 metres. in many cases, cambodian villages were hit with dozens of payloads over the course of several hours. the result was near-total destruction. one us official stated at the time, “we had been told, as had everybody... that those carpet-bombing attacks by b-52s were totally devastating, that nothing could survive.”

to put the 2,756,941 tons into perspective, the allies dropped just over 2,000,000 tons of bombs during all of world war ii, including the bombs that struck hiroshima and nagasaki: 15,000 and 20,000 tons, respectively. cambodia may well be the most heavily bombed country in history.


more soon, folks...

[Dickhead]

"Sometimes, however, I desperately want to behave immorally in a way which would unavoidably result in feelings of guilt. Mongering in poor countries is such a thing. In such circumstances, I will condition myself so that I can act immorally without feeling guilty."

I would argue this is some combination of hypocrisy, self-delusion, or sociopathy.

"It is the many on this thread who have the need - yes, need - to see all prostitution as morally acceptable, for otherwise they would feel guilty about it; I have no such need."

I haven't really heard anyone argue that all prostitution is morally acceptable. For example, my opposition to any form of prostitution involving pimps is well-known and long-standing. I am also opposed to any form of forced prostitution such as what's commonly known as "white slavery."

Furthermore, I'm opposed to any form of prostitution that costs me one hundred dollars or more, ha ha.

"the radical Muslims such missiles create"

Totally the wrong thread for this but which chicken came before which egg? Have you read the Qora'an? Because I have, in its entirety, and would argue the religion is inherently radical.

"Just because a well-treated slave doesn’t regard herself as exploited"

What makes you think such a situation ever existed?

"such WGs are fully cognisant of their situation: they know perfectly well that they are being exploited."

Not true in my experience. I've spoken with some who are being exploited by pimps or their family and are too ignorant to realize it.

"I must again insist that Rubbie’s posts can tell me nothing definite about her."

You're assuming my statement is merely based on ISG and not on personal knowledge. I'd be careful about making assumptions!

"I see sex workers as human fuck sticks during the time I am with them."

And I don't, and this makes you a basic, garden-variety asshole, albeit an articulate one. So now you go on my ignore list.

[Jelly Donut]

Anyone would think my lone, dissenting voice posed some kind of unwelcome challenge to mongers who opt for self-deception!!
...
I don't follow how you are a victim, you made a "free choice" to fight your battle here. Your views are conventional and popular television fare; there are plenty of people who eat your thinking right up, it's more interesting conversation when you post in a place like this. You are here because you enjoy the friction.

That "free choice" banter. You are running a circle around yourself; for you "free choice" involves the freedom to limit other people's choices. "Oh well, I'm all for free choice except when I decide the choice is not really free". This the same sort of argument that pops in the US to fight, say, gay marriage, gay rights ~ people have the right to associate freely.....except if they are having sex with each other, in which case there needs to be a lot of fine print.

[Warbucks]

Wow, this really is turning into Gedanken vs. ISG!!....

Nah all of ISG is not against you and again excellent fucking post. When I have some kids I really have to send them to England to get an education if a 20 something year old can debate like this :D


I must say that I’m feeling a little bit more heat behind some of the responses to my politely arguments, and sarcasm levels are most certainly increasing! Anyone would think my lone, dissenting voice posed some kind of unwelcome challenge to mongers who opt for self-deception!! It was Chekov who observed that, "Love, friendship, and respect do not unite one another as much as a common hatred for something."!!....
Maintaining my usual composure, I will begin at the following post by RN and deal with the more recent ones later - apologies in advance if I’ve misunderstood anything someone’s said or what I say comes across offensively:!!....

G don't let the name calling get you down.

Like I said members should attack the post not the poster but I have been guilty of doing it myself....I am working on it though and I have apologized to members in the open and via PM if I felt I got out of line.

[Rubber Nursey]

What JD said. :) We're not ganging up - we're debating. That's what this thread is for. Don't take it as an insult. If we thought you were an unworthy opponent, your posts would have been ignored. (That's certainly happened before).

...an obvious distinction between a choice made under some kind of duress and a free choice.
The 'choice' debate is too big for a forum like this, so I'll just say this:
a) There is a VERY big difference between a choice made under duress (threats, actual violence) and being 'forced by circumstance' to make a choice between the lesser of two evils.
b) Choosing between the lesser of two evils is still a choice.
c) You're making the assumption that prostitution is an 'evil', that people would never choose unless the other option was even more 'evil'. What about those qualified, educated wh*res (like me) who choose hooking over nursing, or accountancy, or real estate? Or (like me) choose between working two jobs and never seeing my kids, and working four hours a day for the same money and always being home when school finishes?
d) The suggestion that hookers are unable to make valid choices is patronising and insulting and denies our agency and autonomy.
e) FYI: Public perception limits my choices AFTER prostitution. Your idea of who I am and your assertion that I'm tainted/dishonest/degraded/immoral/etc impacts on my future ability to marry, be employed in non-sex industry work, be famous, be political...pretty much every aspect of my life.

Throwing the word ‘choice’ about allows some people to deceive themselves into thinking all poor-world mongering is morally acceptable...
I'm really tired of the poor-world vs rich-world debate. A wh*re is a wh*re is a wh*re. We all do it for the same reasons and, on the whole, have largely the same experiences. The definition of 'poverty' is based on the minimum wage and living standards of the particular country you live in. Rich-world poverty DOES exist. I challenge you to go and find a homeless woman living under the Tower Bridge and tell her that she's not as 'poor' as someone in, say, Bangladesh! Similarly, poor-world affluence and choice also exists. To suggest that hookers in poor countries have even less agency and autonomy than rich-world hookers is not only patronising and insulting...it's RACIST. Go to http://www.durbar.org/index.html (India), or http://www.empowerfoundation.org/ (Thailand), or http://wnu.womynsagenda.org/ (Cambodia) for starters. I've personally met women from these organisations and I can tell you right now...they are NOT pathetic, impoverished victims.

...I’m feeling a little bit more heat behind some of the responses to my politely arguments, and sarcasm levels are most certainly increasing!
That will happen when you call sex workers "fuck sticks" in front of a self-professed wh*re. I tend to bite back. While I do respect your opinion and your right to air it, I'm sure that if I threw gross generalisations in your direction - say, that mongers are pathetic perverts who are too ugly/awkward/socially inept to secure a root in the real world - you'd get a little bit snappy, as well.

In an anonymous setting such as this, there’s just no way to definitively prove that you are who you say you are. Thus my view of Rubber Nursey must remain: “She might not be a former escort.”
You can think that if you want. You're not the first to doubt me and you won't be the last. By the sounds of it, my opinion would carry more weight with you if I *wasn't* an ex-hooker, so maybe it's a good thing.

I want to juxtapose two things you said: I’d argue that these are two contradictory accusations. On the one hand, if I viewed WGs as mere fuck sticks, I wouldn’t feel guilty for treating them as such. On the other hand, if I felt guilty about prostitution, it would be because I felt that the WGs were not mere fuck sticks and so didn’t deserve to be treated as such.
Ok, let me clarify what I *really* wanted to say. You have a problem with sex. If I was a qualified sports masseuse, you would respect my training and skills, assume that I was working there out of 'choice' and chat away to me like a normal human being. If you rolled over and I started playing with your dick, I would suddenly become an exploited victim who can't make my own choices and needs to be 'dehumanised' in order to enjoy your time with me. So...what exactly is so bad about YOUR DICK, that simply touching it can change me from empowered employee to exploited victim? Do you REALLY think your penis holds that much power????

Surely no one would seriously suggest that such a girl “feels empowered” or “like a sex goddess”, i.e. that such a girl feels empowered by being rendered so utterly helpless and submissive by poverty?
I see 'empowerment' as two different things.
1) In this world that we live in, money means power. YES, a hooker earning $250 (or the national equivalent) an hour has more power than a woman living in abject poverty. YES, it gives her the power to educate herself, buy nice things, support her family and feel like a productive member of society. In every country, in every section of society, having a high-earning job = having more power. I used to earn FOUR TIMES the average hourly rate. Over $120 per hour. When I desperately needed the cash, I slashed(?) that to $50 for a 15 minute service. Do you really think that's not empowering?
2) YES, having someone pay half their weekly wage to spend one hour with you makes you feel like a sex goddess. If you're like me and have always had serious doubts about your physical appearance, you simply can't describe the feeling of being picked out of a line-up and having someone hand over huge wads of hard-earned cash to be with you. When they come back and do it again, without going through the line-up process, the feeling multiplies. Every time someone picked me or came back to me, I felt hot and smart and sassy and sexy and YES, that was TOTALLY empowering.

Whether sex work is degrading in all circumstances depends on whether it is true that for a girl to be treated as though she were a fuck stick is degrading in even the best of circumstances. Leaving that as an open question, you are quite correct: I see sex workers as human fuck sticks during the time I am with them. I turn up; I pay them; I fuck them; I leave.
When you go to a hairdresser, you turn up, pay, have your hair cut and leave. You don't see her hair-cutting abilities as the be all and end all of her existence. You don't see your hairdresser as a giant pair of scissors. You shouldn't see a sex worker as a giant hole to stick your dick into.

Yes, loveless fucking. From the girl’s point of view, if you love someone, you don’t charge them access to your body, you give it to them freely. Blah, blah, blah.
Hookers sell a lot of things, but love isn't one of them. Hookers sell sex. Sometimes, the sex experience mimics the BEST aspects of love - intimacy, companionship, laughter, support - but it's not the real thing. Clients know that, hookers know that, so nobody is being fooled or exploited.

...for the period of time that a punter sees a WG she is primarily there to be fucked. Listening to some of what’s said on this thread, anyone would think guys go to a prostitute to enjoy some stand-up comedy or to discuss the Haussmannisation of Paris, and wouldn’t even be bothered if they didn’t have sex. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe guys really are after witty, intelligent conversation when they’re emptying their balls down a girl’s throat...
Yep, you're wrong. At least a third of my clients came for something other than penetrative sex. In some cases, sex was just a bonus and in others, sex wasn't even on the agenda. In order to understand the motivation behind that, you need to be more broadminded about what men are really looking for in their relationships (long or short-term) with women. It's not always about sex.

...Opebo’s analogy really was logically the same as Dickhead’s: Opebo’s analogy replaces the word ‘supermarket’ with ‘restaurant’, and uses the words ‘nice meal’ instead of ‘food’.
So, why do YOU go to restaurants, Gendaken? Can you not cook your own food? Is restaurant food better than what you get at home? Or do you just like to hand the job over to the professionals once in a while?

I [do]not regard rich-world WGs, or their poor-world equivalents earning relatively good money in their poor country, as exploited.
Interesting. So you have to be rich (and white?) in order to make choices? Or do you just have to be earning good money to not be exploited? So a lawyer is making free decisions, but a checkout chick or hotel cleaner is exploited? The wife of a low-income husband is expected to bear children and clean the house for next to nothing - are we now saying that women have no choice in ANYTHING??? Or only if their husbands are highly paid? Hang on...hookers are amongst the most highly paid of ALL women, all around the world, so that can't be right. So what exactly is it that defines exploitation - their richness or their 'whiteness'?

[Rubber Nursey]

Not really.
You would if I meant it (which I wouldn't, of course).

[Opebo]

Yes, loveless fucking.

But the point is that 'loveless' fucking is perfectly fine and really a very nice and enjoyable thing. I would even go so far as to say that your apparent acceptance of the age-old canard that 'love' and fucking should be intertwined is naive and foolish. Why should fucking and love be interdependent in any way? To continue my restaurant analogy, we might say 'oh woe is me because the lady that cooks my dinner does not love me'. Or 'oh, the poor lady who cooks my dinner must hate to do it because I do not love her'. What rot. Who on earth cares? I'm loved by and love all sorts of people, but that same set of people is not necessarily the same set of people I fuck.

(however I will admit I have a high degree of friendliness and fondness, though not 'deep intimacy' with many of my regulars).


From the girl’s point of view, if you love someone, you don’t charge them access to your body, you give it to them freely (I can’t recall a case where a wife charges her husband money on their wedding night, or any other night for that matter).

Well actually most relationships do involve some monetary support, even today, and certainly in the old days they almost always did.


From the guy’s point of view, I’ll remark that as a child I learnt to judge people by their actions, not by empty words... Anyone can say anything they want. The guy’s actions consist of paying, fucking, and then leaving a girl - the overwhelming majority of the time never to see her again. Such perfunctory, one-off encounters are not the tell-tale signs of one’s love for another. When a guy loves a girl, having sex with her is simply one part of a much fuller, rounded, deeper relationship. With a WG, fucking her is the relationship. Again, when a guy sees a girl it’s because he wants to fuck her; anything else that happens is the merest coincidence or piffling irrelevance.

Yes, and that is all as (usually) both parties prefer and there is nothing 'bad' about that at all. The idea that women who engage in prostitution would prefer some 'loving' relationship is ridiculous. For many of them a closer to connection to any of their customers would be precisely what they don't want. I think you're falling prey to the ancient idea that men are 'more naturally promiscuous' than women or that women 'naturally want' monogamy.


Listening to some of what’s said on this thread, anyone would think guys go to a prostitute to enjoy some stand-up comedy or to discuss the Haussmannisation of Paris, and wouldn’t even be bothered if they didn’t have sex. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe guys really are after witty, intelligent conversation when they’re emptying their balls down a girl’s throat, but frankly I don’t find the idea particularly credible.

What makes you say that? My point is precisely that the sex is the purpose for the interaction and this is perfectly acceptable. The fact that you think that meeting someone for a sex act is inferior, degrading, or somehow harmful compared to meeting them for conversation, etc., shows that you are a puritan. Sex is not 'worse than' any other activity. Why should it be?

Lastly, you mention the issue of whether the girl 'enjoys' her work. I've certainly never enjoyed any work I've ever done (at least not as much as I would have enjoyed leisure). For most of us work is an unfortunate necessity, and to place the requirement of enjoyability upon any job is to condemn it, at least for most participants.

I have to say you seem to go to great lengths to make rationalizations for feeling guilty about having sex. There's no need, Gedanken. It is quite simply not a big deal.

[Chocha Monger]

I know some radical feminists who claim that all heterosexual sex involves men exploiting and degrading women. It starts with the man pursuing a reluctant female, pushing his unwanted attentions upon her with free drinks, dinners, frequent phone calls and other forms of communication. Eventually, the female folds under pressure and the chase ends with the woman on her back or on all fours with the man triumphantly above thrusting away at her pussy with his hard spear like penis. It is a raw scene of pure animalistic dominance.

Fucking is basically something a man does to a woman in the West. The man fucks the woman! The woman receives the action, in this case fucking, she is passive. She is the object that gets fucked. In fact, getting fucked is so traumatic that married women and girlfriends insist that their significant others do not fuck them. No. They make love to them. Making love is good. Fucking is bad. You don’t do it to someone you love. Can you make love to a prostitute? Wives don’t have to ask for payment because they sign a marriage contract which establishes the price sex as half of the man’s assets.

Not all prostitutes are involved in kind of sex where a cock penetrates them in any manner. Sometimes it’s the man getting fucked. There are super dominatrixes who do not even permit the man to touch them during encounters. The dominatrix will restrain, beat, humiliate, [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) on, torture and even shit on the client. The client may find himself trussed up like a chicken getting his rear end brutally stuffed with a nine inch strap-on dildo. For this she receives a large sum of money since the clients are often rich and wealthy men willing to pay a premium for secrecy in addition to service. Who is exploited in this situation?

[Warbucks]

You would if I meant it (which I wouldn't, of course).

No I would not. If you read these posts and take a look at some of these photos you would know that a generalization like that has some merit.

[Nickc]

Dear Opebo
I love you.
Love Nickc

[Macheath]

even now, gedanken, young men are training to strap high explosive vests unto themselves and commit suicide attacks against both our countries in the hopes of spending eternity fucking 72 perpetual virgins. that is the reality of the world sir, not romeo and juliet.i seem to recall that like much in the great religions this is open to interpretation, so that the martyr might be surprised to receive 72 raisins as his eternal reward. or maybe the female martyr gets the raisins.

on the same theme the much derided danish cartoons included one where the virgins are at the gates to greet the new martyr to paradise, and are met with a pair of smoking boots - pretty funny i thought.

i was educated in the catholic system, so like many of my peers have a residual kernel of belief that sex and the body is somehow dirty. i think the better view, to misquote woody allen when asked if he thought sex was dirty - "only when done correctly which is why i've always been jealous of the catholics".

the self regarding and wordy thinker gedanken also seems to have a degree of self hatred, but more disturbing to me on an aesthetic level is his reference to women as "fucksticks". this is the terminology that one might expect from a psychopath.

[Rubber Nursey]

...reference to women as "fucksticks". This is the terminology that one might expect from a psychopath.
Or a woman.

[Warbucks]

Or a woman.

RN first let me start by saying I respect what I know about you on these forums and I repsect what you trying to do by advocating knowledge and fighting for the legalization and destruction of useless discrimination of sex workers.

Having said that..... Your logic that a sex worker is what she thinks she is a fallacy. I know mafia types back in my American slum who think they are businessmen this does not mean they are.

I am from a murderous slum, G has told us he is a middle-class English cat but a lot of his views I share. Now religion has nothing to do with my views as I am a proud devout Atheist and think all Theist need to their head examined and might as well believe in Leprechauns and the Tooth-fairy etc....



The self regarding and wordy thinker Gedanken also seems to have a degree of self hatred, but more disturbing to me on an aesthetic level is his reference to women as "fucksticks". This is the terminology that one might expect from a psychopath.

You guys are attacking Gedanken because he said he see prostitutes as fucks sticks? Man you guys need to wake up and smell the fucking latex. Just read these posts and you can see the level of respect the average monger has for the average WG.

Some guys have about as much respect for these women as a person has for an insect but yet you guys attack G because he telling it to you guys straight. Is fuck stick any worse a word than *****, *****, ****, Pro, sex worker? They will all cause frowns.

We go to them for sex nothing more nothing less. I do believe there is a level of dehumanization that happens on both ends. The provider sees the consumer is as nothing more than capital and the consumer sees the provider as nothing more than a means of relief.

Guys Pissed Off About Name Calling?

I have been called every damn thing under the sun on this forum.

Hell I have been called a trick by co-workers when tales of Dubai were overhead. That word trick AKA a man that pays for pussy outright is grounds for ostracization..... where I am from.

Gedanken keep it up man your a (I would say godsend but I am Atheist).

About time the prevalent self-deception was challenged with a little bit of eloquence.

[Opebo]

Or a woman.

Yes women usually hate other women, particularly prostitutes, much more than men hate them.

I have a theory (hardly novel) that it is because the prostitutes undercut the extremely high price 'regular' women charge for the same services.

[Rubber Nursey]

your logic that a sex worker is what she thinks she is a fallacy. i know mafia types back in my american slum who think they are businessmen this does not mean they are.
that's not exactly what i meant. gedanken said sex workers 'choose to be a fuckstick' ie. they choose to be degraded and dehumanised. they don't. they choose to earn a living as a sex worker. i know it sounds like i'm just being pedantic, but the belief that we 'choose to be degraded' is really the cornerstone of all the myths and stereotypes about hookers. if we would 'choose to be degraded', then it follows that we must have no self-esteem, no morals, may have been abused as kids, don't care about our own sexual health, can't be trusted to care for our own children, etc. anti-prostitution zealots use the 'too degraded to realise they're being degraded' line to discredit sex worker activists, and society (including some clients) uses it to excuse vilification and/or violence. while people continue to believe that hookers are 'asking for it' ([CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), violence, exploitation, corruption), we're gonna continue copping it.

ps. thank you for the compliment. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

I have a theory (hardly novel) that it is because the prostitutes undercut the extremely high price 'regular' women charge for the same services.
I don't think it's necessarily about undercutting married women. Quite the opposite, actually. I think they're bitter that hookers get paid up-front for something that other women feel obliged to provide for 'free'. Another common argument is that married women "can't compete" with a person who provides all the best bits of a relationship, minus the domestic drudgery. That's true and there's really no way around it. For lots of women, dating/marriage is a competition and sex workers just don't fight fair.

And I think in many cases, they're jealous, plain and simple. There was a study done a while ago (I can't remember who did it and can't be bothered looking it up) that found prostitution in the top 5 female sexual fantasies. I also watched a doco a few months ago called The Female Orgasm Explained(?) and almost every woman interviewed admitted to fantasising about being a wh*re, or at least behaving like one. Funnily enough, they used words like 'liberating' and 'powerful' and 'self-indulgent' to describe the idea of shagging their way through long lines of paying customers. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

Yes women usually hate other women, particularly prostitutes, much more than men hate them.
Amen to that. They can condemn the 'patriarchy' all they like, but in most cases, women are their own worst enemies. When it comes to sex work debate, the sisterhood are definitely not my sisters.

[Opebo]

..Gedanken said sex workers 'choose to be a fuckstick' ie. they choose to be degraded and dehumanised. They don't. They choose to earn a living as a sex worker. ...the belief that we 'choose to be degraded' is really the cornerstone of all the myths and stereotypes about hookers..

Precisely. Does it ever seem funny to you that the whole of western civilization, or perhaps civilization in general, seems so based on this obsession with controlling the vagina? It is so important to so many people to believe that something-going-in is 'degrading' while something-going-out is just the opposite. If only we could think of it as 'rubbing things together'.



And I think in many cases, they're jealous, plain and simple. There was a study done a while ago (I can't remember who did it and can't be bothered looking it up) that found prostitution in the top 5 female sexual fantasies. I also watched a doco a few months ago called The Female Orgasm Explained(?) and almost every woman interviewed admitted to fantasising about being a wh*re, or at least behaving like one. Funnily enough, they used words like 'liberating' and 'powerful' and 'self-indulgent' to describe the idea of shagging their way through long lines of paying customers. :)

Yes, the dirty little secret is that the life of a prostitute is often quite fun and appealing, and can even be sexually enjoyable. I've always had a bit of a theory about female sexuality, based around what I've read and observed - that a minority of women -the good ones - say 10-20%, are really quite sexually voracious, while the rest are approximately equally divided between the outright frigid and the just humdrum/no fun. What I mean by this distinction is group A is readily vaginally orgasmic, group B is sort of rarely so or just clitorally orgasmic, and group C is basically rarely if ever orgasmic at all.

I'd be curious to know how many prostitutes are from group A, and perhaps have a sexual motivation for their line of work. Or perhaps that type of sexuality goes with a personality that is somewhat rebellious or adventurous. Finally, I wonder if that division of woman-kind holds true across cultures.

[Chocha Monger]

Amen to that. They can condemn the 'patriarchy' all they like, but in most cases, women are their own worst enemies. When it comes to sex work debate, the sisterhood are definitely not my sisters.
Married women and girlfriends dislike prostitutes because they provide men with an option to break any sex strike that a wife or girlfriend may try to impose on her partner. If a man can take $30-$50 and head to the nearest brothel it significantly reduces his female partner's ability to twist his dick by using sex. Prostitution also breaks the social hierarchy that restricts access to beautiful women. Where prostitution is widespread and legal any man can have sex with a hot woman. He doesn't need to be rich or handsome. All he needs is enough money in his pocket to pay for a session. This reduces the power of beautiful women to get whatever they want based solely on looks. They can't twist dicks as much because what they have is easily obtainable.

Instead of men signing up for an expensive long term contract with huge financial penalties for termination they can now get the same service on a pay-per-use basis without the contract and maintenance fees.

[Dickhead]

The way to break a sex strike is to lie next to her, beat off, and wipe it on her. On my very first trip to Buenos Aires, I had a hooker tell me, "I never turn my boyfriend down for sex. Never. I know if I do, he will go straight to the boliche (wh@rehouse). If I am too tired for sex I blow him." I've also had two other women down here, while in the process of trying to convince me to be their boyfriend, tell me they would never, ever turn me down for sex. One even said, "I'll give you whatever you want whenever you want it."

But they both had this idea I would then be monogamous.

[Jake993]

Yes, the dirty little secret is that the life of a prostitute is often quite fun and appealing, and can even be sexually enjoyable. I've always had a bit of a theory about female sexuality, based around what I've read and observed - that a minority of women -the good ones - say 10-20%, are really quite sexually voracious, while the rest are approximately equally divided between the outright frigid and the just humdrum/no fun. What I mean by this distinction is group A is readily vaginally orgasmic, group B is sort of rarely so or just clitorally orgasmic, and group C is basically rarely if ever orgasmic at all.

I'd be curious to know how many prostitutes are from group A, and perhaps have a sexual motivation for their line of work. Or perhaps that type of sexuality goes with a personality that is somewhat rebellious or adventurous. Finally, I wonder if that division of woman-kind holds true across cultures. That is one heck of a good question. it may not be relevant but it should would be interesting to know. Like any active monger can tell you, there are "contenders" and "pretenders" both ON and OFF the job.

True, we have all run across the non-pro gal during the dating process who talks a good game about being sexually adventurous, voracious, etc, etc while talking at the bar or disco or wherever only to find that the whole "act" was less than enthusiastic, creative what have you. BUT - for me the surprise came then I encountered sex workers who were in Group B and perhaps belonged in Group C. The looks might have been stunning in the bar and the talk might have been suggesting the fulfillment of all kinds of sexual fantasy, but when the doors were closed and the clothes were off - boooooring. I had assumed that most working girls were from Group A. But how wrong I was.

I now spend a lot of time (often for naught) trying to interview and get a sense of whom I am dealing (or not) with before I agree to a transaction. I am finding now that not speaking the same verbal language is sometimes an advantage because you can't just listen with your ears and must rely on non-verbal communication during the interview process to determine whether or not there is chemistry. Of course we all want a Group A nympho when we are plunking down hard cash. What confounds me is the Group B/C gal who is going through the motions simply for the money. What a way to make a living.

Here's my point (yes, I do have a point). And by the way, I apologize ahead of time if this comment offends anyone - but of all those sex workers who complain and object to being treated badly or degraded during the sex act, how many are actually Group B/C girls who are faking who they really are and setting themselves up for something that is at best, unpleasant or (at worst) degrading and often dangerous?

I say this not because I am fond of degradation but because I can't count the number of times where I have felt like I have been deceived or "over marketed to". I know it's a job and I know there's a risk when going with someone new, but darn it girls if a guy is asking for XYZ then you had better be prepared to delivery XYZ. Otherwise, just say no and move on.

Let's be honest - we want what we want. Shame on the guys who expect a girl to be a mind reader. BUT - shame on the gal who advertises one thing and refuses to deliver. I am by no means justifying violence and/or undesired roughness, but there often exists a chasm between expectation and delivery. I believe that this chasm is often the cause of bad feelings and often violence.

Whenever I hear about degradation and disrespect, I can't help but wonder if we are dealing with a failure to communicate.

BTW - sorry if I hijacked this thread for my own "soap box" purposes. I saw Opebo's comment and just had to chime in.

[Dickhead]

Jake, my question would be: where do you monger? (I have my suspicions).

[Jake993]

Jake, my question would be: where do you monger? (I have my suspicions). Russia, Ukraine, Brazil, and a few of the "Stans" in the FSU. suspicions confirmed? Or no?

[Dickhead]

Suspicions not confirmed. I don't know any of those places. I was thinking Dominican Republic to tell you the truth.

[Jake993]

Suspicions not confirmed. I don't know any of those places. I was thinking Dominican Republic to tell you the truth. Nope - never been to DR. There's a funny thing sweeping through Russia these days. If you read the forums you will learn that in the first 10 years after the end of Soviet Days, the legendary club Night Flight was filled with runway model look alike girls. No joke. But let's be honest - it was the wild west. Gangsters everywhere and people doing what they could for money. There were a lot of desperate people. They were living by their wits and using whatever assets they had to survive. Some flourished.

the second ten years saw a slow but steady change. The high class prostitute was actually someone that was "admired" as being a woman of means who was independent. In fact I remember hearing that in the early 2000's youngster were polled and asked what they wanted to be when they grew up. More than an insignificant amount of boys wanted to be gangsters and more than an insignificant number of little girls wanted to be "valutni prostitutki". Now this could be a BS and come to think of it the Russian guy who told me was a but of a bullshitter, but it it illustrates a point.

Today, you can go to Night Flight and there are a lot of students and some very very nice looking girls who are "working". But they are conflicted. They all want to make the big bucks of days gone by (which are grossly overstated) but really hate the whole idea of what they are doing. They allude to what sexy creatures they are in the bar but once you get them in your hotel room, they want to get paid in advance and then think twice about going through with the whole deal. I'm serious.

I think what we are seeing is a society in transition. Experienced mongers who frequent Moscow steer clear of Night Flight because it is filled with pretenders. It's fun to go with first timers but that's about it. Most of the girls who "work" there are not serious about what they are doing. They appear to be fulfilling some sort of fantasy of easy money from stupid foreigners.

Kinda gives sex workers a bad name IMHO.

Reminds me of a quote from a movie I once saw. I can't remember the name of the movie for the life of me. Sorry girls, I'm going to quote the "W" word.
"If you are going to be a wh*re, then there's only one thing to be, and that's the best wh*re in the house". In other words, if something is worth doing, then it's worth doing correctly. Let's be honest - we are talking about a service business. figure out what the customer wants, what's he's willing to pay for it, and delivery it to him (or her) if you have the inclination to do so. It's that simple.

Darn - on the soapbox again. Sorry.

Jake - out

[Rubber Nursey]

Precisely. Does it ever seem funny to you that the whole of western civilization, or perhaps civilization in general, seems so based on this obsession with controlling the vagina?
I know! It's little wonder that so many women hate sex/don't masturbate/can't orgasm when they're constantly being told their vagina (and sexual desire) is dirty and dangerous. And the concept of controlling female sexuality extends way past the vagina. Most countries have laws banning (or heavily regulating) prostitution, abortion, surrogacy, egg donation, IVF, etc. Anything to do with the female reproductive system, really.


What I mean by this distinction is group A is readily vaginally orgasmic, group B is sort of rarely so or just clitorally orgasmic, and group C is basically rarely if ever orgasmic at all.
From what I understand, true vaginal orgasm (not caused by pressure on the clitoris during sex) is relatively rare. I wouldn't correlate the type of orgasm a woman has with her overall orgasmic capabilities and/or sexual appetite.


I'd be curious to know how many prostitutes are from group A, and perhaps have a sexual motivation for their line of work.
I know it does happen, but I would suspect that very few hookers would be sexually motivated to actually START working. The stigma attached to prostitution - especially the idea that hookers are forced into doing things they don't want to do and can't refuse clients - would keep many nymphos away. (In fact, it could even attract more women who HATE sex, because they might feel more able to separate themselves from the dreadful sexual experiences they're expecting to endure?) But once they start working, it's a different matter. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

what confounds me is the group b/c gal who is going through the motions simply for the money. what a way to make a living.
...all those sex workers who complain and object to being treated badly or degraded during the sex act, how many are actually group b/c girls who are faking who they really are and setting themselves up for something that is at best, unpleasant or (at worst) degrading and often dangerous?
i agree with you to degree, in that doing a job that you hate, day after day, can certainly lead to feelings of resentment, degradation and low self-esteem. i also agree that promising something you're not willing to deliver can incite anger, just like any other goods or service provider (although, i can't condone a violent reaction towards sex workers. we don't generally punch or [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) other salespeople who rip us off!)

however, we need to be careful when we talk about job satisfaction in terms of sexual enjoyment. many, if not most, regular employees are simply 'going through the motions' and don't truly enjoy their work. the idea that it's somehow worse, or more dangerous, to go through the motions in sex work is based on what opebo was talking about...that sex is inherently bad or dirty, and that being 'forced' to do it is soul destroying. yes, hooking is way more fun when you enjoy your clients' company and get off on the sex, but it's not imperative. it's also not the only determinant of sex industry job satisfaction. even if they don't like the actual sex, many sex workers enjoy the flexible hours, getting dressed up, hanging with the girls, socialising with clients, visiting posh restaurants and hotels, etc. you can love your job without actually loving your job, if that makes any sense.

[Dickhead]

this whole clitoral orgasm vs. vaginal orgasm thing is a total crock and was debunked 60 years ago. and even if it ain't a crock (maybe the debunking is a crock but what the fuck do i know? i've only been with six hundred women), who cares what kind of orgasms women have as long as they have them?

i know a lot of mongers don't even care if hookers come or not. me, if i can't make 'em come after seeing them three or four times i don't go back. myabe this is my own hang-up or insecurity but really i think it's more i just dig making women come. and it takes back some of the power the woman has. my favorite is making 'em come with my tongue so that's obviously pretty much clitoral. i especially like making 'em come when they don't want to (maybe that's [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)?) or say they can't or won't.

but down here they mostly want to come, most of the time. a couple of women have told me stuff like if they come too many times in one day they get a headache.

plus you make 'em come, you get better service, word gets around. a win-win situation. one hand washes the other. making your hookers come is the moral thing to do.

[Dickhead]

You know what? Anybody who does a job they don't like for any long period of time is a fucking idiot. Most of the people I know like their jobs or are smart enough to move on. I've had several jobs I didn't like and I quit 'em real fast. No job is perfect, of course. But I've done a lot of different things for work and if I liked it I kept doing it, and if I didn't I didn't. Now some people get trapped, large families, they're on parole, whatever, so they have to stay with jobs they don't like. They're fucking idiots.

Then you have the people who do jobs they don't like because they can make a lot of money doing them. Those are the real wh@res in my opinion, whether the job is prostitution or something else.

[ThatGuy865]

this whole clitoral orgasm vs. vaginal orgasm thing is a total crock and was debunked 60 years ago. and even if it ain't a crock (maybe the debunking is a crock but what the fuck do i know? i've only been with six hundred women), who cares what kind of orgasms women have as long as they have them?

i know a lot of mongers don't even care if hookers come or not. me, if i can't make 'em come after seeing them three or four times i don't go back. myabe this is my own hang-up or insecurity but really i think it's more i just dig making women come. and it takes back some of the power the woman has. my favorite is making 'em come with my tongue so that's obviously pretty much clitoral. i especially like making 'em come when they don't want to (maybe that's [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)?) or say they can't or won't.

but down here they mostly want to come, most of the time. a couple of women have told me stuff like if they come too many times in one day they get a headache.

plus you make 'em come, you get better service, word gets around. a win-win situation. one hand washes the other. making your hookers come is the moral thing to do.i pay the hoe to service me. i don't pay her to service her. if she doesn't get her's. who gives a damn. it ain't even in the plan. i don't go to a restaurant to get the cook fed and i don't go to a p4p to get them off.

[Warbucks]

http://www.getbig.com/iview/steele040315.htm

Lexington Steele

Warning: This interview is about a porn star. Read at your own risk! Thanks to T. Man Bones for this no holds barred, tell it like it is interview.

As Lexington Steele told his mother, "I'm the guy who does the things people talk about in hushed tones." Dubbed "The Porn Star for the New Millenium," Lex defies the stereotypical image the public holds of actors in the heterosexual adult film industry.
Boogie Night's Dirk Diggler pales in comparison to "Lex the Impaler." Lex's nickname bespeaks development of a below-the-waist sort (12"+). However, he is also known in the industry as having a superb all-around physique, the product of many hours spent in the gym. An all-American high school athlete who made the transition from stock broker on Wall Street to #1 porn star, Lex contradicts most stereotypes of the male adult entertainer as lacking-endowment-between-the-ears. Lex speaks with candor and honesty about his chosen profession.

Maintaining his health and shape have allowed this self-described "sex athlete" to star in over 500 movies with over 1,200 women in the last four years. Although Lex doesn't follow professional bodybuilding, he does read MuscleMag International! Here, in an exclusive for GetBig.com readers, the world's most famous porno star discusses his workouts, his diet & supplementation, his spirituality, and the pros and cons of the adult industry.


Lexington Steele, interviewed by T. Man Bones.



Lex, how did you get started in the adult entertainment industry?

I went to Syracuse University. I graduated in 1993. From '93 until '98 I was a Wall Street Stock Broker. With one of the firms I worked for, my office was located on the 36th floor of the World Trade Center. If I hadn't gotten into porn and stayed in high finance I would have been in those towers on September 11th.

In 1997 I started doing some regular mainstream modeling. Some folks suggested I get involved with adult modeling so by March of 1998 I was in Los Angeles working in adult film. I completely gave up finance because I said to myself, "Damn, I've always wanted to do porno, and I can always fall back onto corporate America." I went out to LA with enough money to sustain myself for three months and the plan that, if I made it, great, if not, I'd return to the Wall [Wall Street]. Things worked out!


I'll say! Your many awards in the industry include two-time winner of the AVN [Adult Video News] Male Performer of the Year. What's the best part about being an adult entertainer?

I get to work with a huge number of beautiful women who are between the ages of 18 and 22.

(laughing) You got it made man!

Oh, yeah! I get to travel: I've literally been on 5 of the 7 continents. I've had women from all over the world, from Brazil to Tokyo. You name it. When I do leave the industry, I'll take the memories of the traveling with me. Those are the times I am able to bond and get comfortable with the people I work with. That's important because when that cameraman or director is shooting you in a sex scene, you are at the utmost level of comfort and you can do what you have to do in front of them in front on the camera.

Has it ever been uncomfortable having sex on camera?

Yes. I got my feet wet in New York prior to coming to LA. The big difference between New York & LA for me was the volume of work. In New York I was shooting one or two scenes a month. To do one scene and to do it well, you think you're the man. But once you move to the major leagues in Los Angeles, it's every single day you have to prove your metal.
In NY, we always shot at the Waldorf Astoria and I always knew the cameraman and the director: the only variable was the girl. In LA, every single day it's a different girl, different director and location, different variables. These are things that can really throw some salt in your game.


Sounds like a lot of pressure. What's the worst part of being an adult entertainer?

The worst part is the risk to your life. Let's be frank. Everyone is PCR-DNA tested every thirty days. But you are still rolling the dice on a regular basis. How do I know that on any given day my test will come back a "license to thrill" or a death certificate?
But Aids isn't the only problem in the business. Most of the action is shot bareback [without condoms] and STDs are rampant. I've been in this business 4 years; if I don't know what herpes looks like, I don't know what the back of my hand looks like. I don't have it, but, man, there have been several situations where I have looked at a girl, said, "I don't know what THAT is," and refused to do a scene. I was in Budapest, Hungary, doing a scene on a golf course. The director and producer have this girl, and her ass looks like it was on fire! I wasn't going there for anything! I told them get another girl or put me on a plane back to the States. I keep a watchful eye over my body. Because of my job I have to consistently monitor my body.


You've built a great physique. What are your workouts like?

I work out 6 days a week. I focus a lot on cardio. I start with 2 miles on the treadmill. I'm not jogging- I'm doing a 7 & 1/2 minute mile. I do a lot of abdominal movements. Abs are the most important muscle group in adult film next to one's dick. The reason being is there are a number of positions wherein I'm able to move my hips in a certain way and for a certain amount of time because my abs are so strong. The ability for me to thrust my hips with rapidity is based on the strength of my abs.

What kind of exercises do you do for your abs?

I do a lot of crunches, lots of hanging leg lifts. There's a vertical crunch machine I really like. I train my obliques with side-bends, grasping a 45-pound plate in either hand. I switch my exercises up and never do more than 3 ab exercises on any given day.

What about the rest of your body? Do you prefer free weights or machines?

I focus a lot on curls and work with dumbbells. In the industry I am able to do a lot of things other guys cannot do because I do work out all the time. For example, if I take a woman into a reverse cowgirl position [woman riding on top of man, facing his feet] and I decide to stand up-that's tough to do! Most of these women weigh anywhere from 100 to 125 pounds. When I curl I use the Olympic bar with a 45 pound plate on each side. This way I am able to curl women on camera and into various positions. My workouts allow me to hold positions for 3 to 5 minutes compared to some out-of-shape guy who can only hold a position for 30 seconds. That gives the director a lot of great footage.

A lot of the male actors in the industry look like crap.

I'm in the gym religiously at 7:30 every single morning. I wear a skully, a nylon jacket over a sweat suit, sometimes with a vinyl suit over that. I'm attempting to raise my body temperature to an abnormally high rate.

To burn fat?

Partly, but mainly because I will not experience a melt-down in any circumstance on camera because of the lighting of a set. People have to understand that on a set there are 4 or 5 big lights and these things make you sweat. Many guys start to sweat and they start to break down on camera and that can lead to loss of an erection, which in my business is something to be avoided at all costs.

I never even thought about that, man!

I'm a pro at this. I have to think about these things.

Where do you train?

24-hour fitness in Northridge. Actually North Hills, California.

There are some people who would say that all pornography is violence towards women. What's your take on that?

There are certain productions that do cater to that and aim to degrade and denigrate womanhood. There is a market for that and these people are supplying that market. But that's not what I do. What I do is sex. I work with Anabolic and Diabolic Video. Their videos are not about degrading women. We're shooting the act of sexual intercourse; it's not about brutalizing women. It is about having sex with that woman in ways that the common man cannot. A lot of guys watch me because they feel uncomfortable doing some of the stuff I do on camera to his wife or girlfriend. I satisfy a need these men have. I remember the Friday nights at home alone, without female companionship. Make no mistake: I make movies for men to masturbate to. I understand that.

We thank you Lex!

Granted, if couples like it -- that's great! I fully understand that, when I'm working, gentlemen out there are superimposing themselves upon me, into the scene, so that they can enjoy the scene. They live vicariously through me. Some guys watch basketball. They can't be Michael Jordan, but they can watch his games. You can't be Lexington Steele, but you can watch his movies. On top of that, I have fans that look for me. I had my favorite male stars when I was younger. I wouldn't rent a movie unless a particular male actor was in it. Today I am that guy for many men. I owe it to them to get my ass in the gym so that I don't look slack in my movies.

In bodybuilding the guys at the top do well, but the guys at the bottom often have a rough time making a living. Is it the same for male actors in heterosexual adult films?

I've been earning over 6 figures for 2 out of the 4 years I've been in the business. But I'm lucky. There are maybe 4 or 5 guys who make similar money in the business.
There are guys who make decent money because in porn you've got guys who are established. They're working 3 or 4 scenes a week at about $500 a scene. That's good money compared to the general household income in the United States. All things considered though, it's fast money. Fast money is easy-come, easy-go. So these porn stars may not be living the sustained lives with strong foundations that people earning similar money in quote-unquote "legitimate" jobs are. I'll be honest with you man: there is rampant drug use in this game!


You mean recreational drug use?

Like you wouldn't believe. The tolerance for this is disgusting. It's despicable how you can see a girl come into this business and 3 months later she's lost weight, her tits are deflated, her ass is gone. I've seen guys in this business lose it all because of drugs. My take is this: if you know a certain drug is going to fuck up your livelihood, why do it?

Right. Stay away from it!

Exactly. But this is a business that attracts people who are weak minded. Take weak-minded people, fast money and the opportunity to abuse recreational drugs and you've got a terrible combination. People don't remember that there is life after porno.

Your physique is your livelihood now.

I consider myself a pro athlete. I'm paid because of my body.

Are you a religious man and if so, are there any contradictions between being a religious man and being a porn star?

Yes, I am religious. I am Christian: Baptist. I grew up in as close to a Cosby-show lifestyle as you can get. Doing porno, on a repeated basis, I am committing adultery; I'm not married, so I'm fornicating for a living; I'm paid to have sex, which means what? I'm prostituting by definition. These are things I have to reckon with with my God on a daily basis. I knowingly do these things.
My decision to do porno has forced me to take my religion within: because of my job I am stronger in my relationship with God, because now I take God with me everywhere I go; if I don't, I'll fail! I didn't know that god blessed me with an abnormally large penis that allows me to make porno. But I feel blessed. I believe I am blessed because I am meant to please one woman for the rest of our lives together. True, I haven't met her yet.


Well, there's still time for that.

I believe that these things are happening, that my life is as it is, because there is meaning and a plan and the outcome is that I will be a better man for it and am thus blessed.

Does your family know what you do?

Yes. My father passed in '99. My mom knows what I do. For a long time I felt she didn't really understand the magnitude of what I was doing. My first year or two, she thought I was doing HBO, Cinemax, risqué-type T&A "porn." Emmanuelle type stuff! (Laughing)
I had to sit her down, Thanksgiving, 2000, and explain to her that I'm not the guy you see at 11 o'clock on Cinemax. I'm the guy that people go into the bookstore where people are told not to go on the bad side of town. I'm that guy on that tape that the guy in the trench coat wants to rent.


How is your mom dealing with it?

She supports me. Her main concerns are that I don't get anyone pregnant or get Aids. She appreciates the fact that I am open with her. As I put it to her at the time, "I'm not a bad guy; I'm the guy who does the things that are spoken of in hushed tones." My position as adult icon does not necessarily lend me mass public respect, but it is a position in which I know people enjoy what I do. Do you know how good it feels when a guy comes up to me and says, "My wife and I conceived our baby after watching one of your films"?

It must make you feel great. You told your mom you weren't the guy seen on cable and, indeed, you aren't. Is there racism in the adult movie industry?

Here's the breakdown: porno on cable is the next big thing. There are areas in the country where you can't do mail-order porn, it's a violation of state lines to mail it. Therefore the importance of porn's access to cable networks in those areas is amplified exponentially. So, if you're in a state where you can't get porno at a video store, you can get it on cable.
Cable recognizes this and they also recognize that there are areas in the United States where people won't subscribe to the cable or pay-per-view if it features a black man having sex with a white woman. The subscriber refuses to watch that on cable; the cable operator doesn't purchase that movie from the distributor; the distributor tells the movie company, "We're not going to buy that;" the producer and director say, "We're not going to hire Lexington" because they can't sell that film.

Yet I'm a Screen Actor's Guild (SAG) actor and I have 75% of the spoken dialog in the largest, most popular adult movie produced in the year 2000. The film is Westside and it is gaining fame internationally as a B-movie. The year before that I'm performer of the year and take home the "Best Anal Sex Scene" award. So, outta 15,000 releases, I'm deemed the best performer in the business and I haven't done a dialog feature production since Westside? Tony, if I was white I'd be on the cover of every box from VCA, Wicked, Vivid, Adam & Eve, Metro and Sin City [major big-budget porn companies]-but as it is, these companies are opting for a policy of segregation by not challenging the distributors.


On your web-site you say you've also received a lot of flack from fellow African-Americans who consider you "a sell-out, an Uncle Tom and a Clarence Thomas." Why?

There is a crabs in a barrel mentality that the people in this business operate by. I have been successful in this industry because of what is between my legs but also because of what is between my ears. My career has really accelerated in the last 4 years. There are people jealous of that. There are people jealous because I won't work for peanuts. I won't work for $300. That said, if I feel like I didn't earn my $800-$1,000 per scene, I will discount my earnings. That's why directors in the industry respect me.
I am a black man but my degree of intimidation isn't very high. I end up doing a lot of interracial scenes. Is it my fault these companies are hiring me? No. You've got to see some of these guys showing up for an audition: 40 in hand [alcoholic beverage], sandals, button-down plaid shirt looking like they're about to whip out a 9mm. In this industry, my work isn't based on black or white but green [dollars]. If I'm going to make more money working with a girl who looks like Britney Spears versus one who looks like Janet Jackson, I'm going with the greener pasture. I opt for the larger dollars because each time I perform I roll the dice as far as my health is concerned.


Let's talk about your diet and Liquid RX.

Everyone has room for improvement, and mine is when it comes to diet. In the morning I take a couple Xenadrine and a Ripped Force Fruit Punch. Then I'm working, so I don't have any appetite until 7 o'clock that night. For dinner I'll eat some chicken, fish, rice, vegetables. When I eat, I eat clean and healthy. I stay away from bread. Sometimes I go overboard and eat Chinese Food.
One of the supplements I use is Tribulus [Tribulus Terrestris]. It increases my penis' sensitivity. It makes you feel like you have no skin on your penis!

Liquid RX is a sexual multi-vitamin in a tonic form [www.LiquidSteele.com]. It's not a magic pill; it's no sexual steroid. This product contains hundreds of times the percentage of the daily recommended allowance of the nutrients that are necessary for peak sexual performance: zinc, ginseng, yohimbe, etc. But these are safe levels. I think Liquid RX is as safe as creatine. It's important to me as a sexual athlete that all these things are natural substances. When I leave this game I want my body to be as healthy as it was when I entered.


Imagine it's one day in the future and you're a father. Your son or daughter comes to you and says, "Dad, I want to be a pornographic movie star." What would your reaction be?

In no way would I recommend this job to my best-friend, let alone my children. Every day in this business you must decide to risk your life. When I came into this business in '98, 5 women were infected with HIV from one guy. It was a scary time. I would positively forbid my daughter from working in this industry. There is a measure of self-respect a sex performer gives away every single time he or she is on camera. I wouldn't want anyone so close to me to give away anything so important and valuable. When I have kids I will instruct them that their bodies are temples, and I don't want anyone walking up into and defiling their temples.

Is being a porn star rough on your romantic relationships?

Very much so. You know a lot of women who recognize me from my films want to be with me. But my thing is, Hey, I do porno. Why do these women who aren't involved in the business want to have sex with me? Why do they want to knowingly risk their lives? I'm not attracted to those women.

How much longer do you have left in the industry?

Can't say, but I will say this: when I retire I'm going out at the top of my game. I stay on top by staying in the gym. I shit you not, my workouts have given me a five year discount off my age: I'm 30 years old looking like I'm 24 or 25.

[Chocha Monger]

Lexington Steele has made quite a name for himself. This American chick who is a close friend of mine is a bit of a porn fiend. I made a joke about following in Lex's footsteps and she instantly knew what and who I was talking about. ;)

[Rubber Nursey]

...this is a business that attracts people who are weak minded. Take weak-minded people, fast money and the opportunity to abuse recreational drugs and you've got a terrible combination.
...In no way would I recommend this job to my best-friend, let alone my children. I would positively forbid my daughter from working in this industry.
...There is a measure of self-respect a sex performer gives away every single time he or she is on camera. I wouldn't want anyone so close to me to give away anything so important and valuable. When I have kids I will instruct them that their bodies are temples, and I don't want anyone walking up into and defiling their temples.
...Why do these women who aren't involved in the business want to have sex with me? Why do they want to knowingly risk their lives? I'm not attracted to those women.
Grrrr. I hate when hookers and porn stars do this. Rave on and on about how fabulous your job is, while at the same time sl*t-shaming (much of it self-directed) and condemning the business as a whole. It's sad that this guy feels so guilty about what he's doing and I'd feel sorry for him...if he hadn't also pulled the "I'm ok, because I'm different/better/more well-adjusted than everyone else in the game" crap. It's the same as sex workers saying "I'm a high-class call girl, not a dirty street prostitute". It's arrogant, it's deluded and it makes me really, really angry.

[Dickhead]

Porno is for people with no imagination. It's immature and masturbatory. It does not interest me in the slightest and never has. Flesh and blood live sex. I'm not into watching.

Now I am going to say something that will [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) some people off. Porn is for losers and guys like this gym killer in PA and the guy who killed all those people at Virginia Tech were heavy consumers. In general computer professionals are not good with women and tend to become mongers more so than the general population. I see a lot of these guys in BA. They can't interact with people and because of all the porn they watch they come down here with ridiculous expectations. They make a lot of money so they throw a lot of money around and they end up dissatisfied for the most part. They are trying to re-create some jack off fantasy.

A lot of these guys are well-educated but very few have much street smarts and I see them getting in trouble all the time. They "fall in love" or they get drugged and robbed because they are so naïve. Many have never had a long-term relationship. Many were virgins until a fairly late age (this is why they need porn because they don't have any fond memories to jack off to).

Sure, plenty of fairly normal people enjoy porn, but in general it's just a lot of exploitative non-productive marketing bullshit and does not represent any improvement in society. I've been around the industry a fair amount as we were renting out the house where I was living for film shoots and stuff. It was really slimy for the most part, much more slimy than actual prostitution, in my opinion.

[Warbucks]

Porno is for people with no imagination. It's immature and masturbatory. It does not interest me in the slightest and never has. Flesh and blood live sex. I'm not into watching.

Now I am going to say something that will [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) some people off. Porn is for losers and guys like this gym killer in PA and the guy who killed all those people at Virginia Tech were heavy consumers. In general computer professionals are not good with women and tend to become mongers more so than the general population. I see a lot of these guys in BA. They can't interact with people and because of all the porn they watch they come down here with ridiculous expectations. They make a lot of money so they throw a lot of money around and they end up dissatisfied for the most part. They are trying to re-create some jack off fantasy.

A lot of these guys are well-educated but very few have much street smarts and I see them getting in trouble all the time. They "fall in love" or they get drugged and robbed because they are so naïve. Many have never had a long-term relationship. Many were virgins until a fairly late age (this is why they need porn because they don't have any fond memories to jack off to).

Sure, plenty of fairly normal people enjoy porn, but in general it's just a lot of exploitative non-productive marketing bullshit and does not represent any improvement in society. I've been around the industry a fair amount as we were renting out the house where I was living for film shoots and stuff. It was really slimy for the most part, much more slimy than actual prostitution, in my opinion.


DH you missed the whole point I think? The point I saw was this guy is a porn star he gets paid to have sex he does not deduct from his net worth to have sex he is in fact adding to it and he is still saying the same things I have said many times about the the hoe game.


Grrrr. I hate when hookers and porn stars do this. Rave on and on about how fabulous your job is, while at the same time sl*t-shaming (much of it self-directed) and condemning the business as a whole. It's sad that this guy feels so guilty about what he's doing and I'd feel sorry for him...if he hadn't also pulled the "I'm ok, because I'm different/better/more well-adjusted than everyone else in the game" crap. It's the same as sex workers saying "I'm a high-class call girl, not a dirty street prostitute". It's arrogant, it's deluded and it makes me really, really angry.


RN this guy has proably fucked more women than any of us. One would think his opinion on things has some sway.

[Dickhead]

I wasn't responding to your post IL. I was just commenting on the subject of porn in general, as it came up. Didn't even really read about the porn star.

[Opebo]

...My favorite is making 'em come with my tongue so that's obviously pretty much clitoral..

See, you and I are very different in terms of taste - I don't like that. I mean I don't mind doing it as a brief foreplay, but making a woman come from a good deep hard fuck is, well, just an essential part of being really satisfied. I guess its more about mutual passion than 'making her come' - I often have great sessions with women who don't come, but they still seem to greatly enjoy being boffed. Plenty of times women simply don't like being dicked, or at least not by me, and that is just no fun at all.

I usually find that the g-spot oriented girls tend to be size queens as well, which is also very exciting/appealing.

[Jake993]

Even if they don't like the actual sex, many sex workers enjoy the flexible hours, getting dressed up, hanging with the girls, socialising with clients, visiting posh restaurants and hotels, etc. You can love your job without actually loving your job, if that makes any sense. Yes, that DOES make a lot of sense and confirms some of my suspicions.

[Gentleman Travel]

It's also not the only determinant of sex industry job satisfaction. Even if they don't like the actual sex, many sex workers enjoy the flexible hours, getting dressed up, hanging with the girls, socialising with clients, visiting posh restaurants and hotels, etc. You can love your job without actually loving your job, if that makes any sense.
Just like many women (and men) enjoy/value being married (or in a relationship) without necessarily really loving their partner.

[Dickhead]

It ain't my dick they love; it's my pile-driving ass.

[Bango Cheito]

I reckon it's just a 'grass is greener' issue. When we're running around having sex with strangers (paid or otherwise), we start craving the friendship, romance, security, etc of a relationship. When we're in a relationship, we start craving the freedom, excitement, variety, etc of shagging strangers.

Once you tire of the mind-fuck of emotional relationships, you'll probably run back to the simple honesty and freedom of P4P. After a while you'll probably start feeling empty and unloved, and head back into relationships. I've spent the last 20 years doing much the same thing. I'm never happy with what I've got.

I totally agree. I think at the end of the day we are hard wired to NEVER be satisfied. To be completely satisfied is to be dead and stagnant. Not necessarily such a good thing. Even the Tantra talks about how important longing is. As it is I could be fucking 10 women a day in the brothels here and STILL feel longing right now. That's a necessary part of growth. It's also proof positive of how fucked up modern society is, and the way we PIGEON HOLE everything.

[Bango Cheito]

Just to add some more, I think the whole idea of women being grouped into A B and C is RIDICULOUS. Most women "live" in B and C because of their circumstances but I think there is a lot of potential mobility there. One woman who has been very close to me for example was A all the way until we started seriously having problems, where she slipped into B. Then she started withholding sex from me, at which point I went out and fucked whoever I wanted whenever I wanted. Within three weeks we were back to A. Total success! For both parties! :P The Aristotelean idea that a woman IS frigid or IS hypersexual is totally false and denies how flexible human beings really are. That cold fish sex worker could be a total firecracker but you just got her on the wrong day. We're not robots!!!

Furthermore, all this "your body is a temple" shit, fine, express it as your opinion but DONT TRY AND FORCE IT on me, and frankly I don't think it should be forced on children either. It's a belief we can either accept or reject, in any particular facet of it.

I happen to think my body is a temple. That's why I don't take antibiotics or drink soda, for example. That's why I try to get a decent amount of sleep, that's why I don't use laurel or laureth sulphates, a whole bunch of things. I also refuse to DENY my body the sex it NEEDS to be healthy. Everybody is so shit concerned about the concequences of too much sex, nobody ever worries about the other end of the spectrum.

Celibacy is NOT FUCKING HEALTHY, sorry to say. Nor do I think the average married lifestyle anywhere in the modern world is very healthy. Not healthy for the man, and even that much LESS healthy for the woman.

It frankly makes me want to puke the way some people on here are totally ripping on the idea of the lifestyle of a prostitute as unhealthy, but what are the alternatives? Being a nice little hausfrau? A frigid "career woman"?

[Bango Cheito]

And finally as far as the concept of free will and choice is concerned, how very FEW is us are actually doing our wills? Most of us are on total autopilot and tossed around by the storms of culture, pulled this way and that by our DNA and other aspects of our biology etc.

In my limited worldview, it is only the *****s and artists and a few other people who are deeply spiritual and consciously WORK at it who have ANY dimension of REAL control over our lives.

Most of us are totally dominated by our own lowest basest natures. Show me an example of somebody on this planet who is REALLY in control. REALLY.

[Warbucks]

They can't interact with people and because of all the porn they watch

Agreed. This also happens with the monger. Excessive sex to go.



Celibacy is NOT FUCKING HEALTH

Fucking yourself into a early grave is not so healthy also. Have you ever noticed that it seems like prostitutes age faster than normal women? Why is this BC?



In my limited worldview, it is only the *****s and artists and a few other people who are deeply spiritual and consciously WORK at it who have ANY dimension of REAL control over our lives.

LOL.

[Dickhead]

My guess on why hookers seem to age faster than the general population (I do agree this is true) would be:

1) Early parenthood and higher overall fecundity
2) Late hours and exposure to second-hand smoke (I suspect prostitutes smoke at a higher rate than the general public but I have no proof other than anecdotal)
3) Possible higher rates of drug use in some places
4) Coming from lower socio-economic strata to begin with, in general, which has implications for what kind of health care (especially dental care, which affects overall health more than is generally realized) and nutrition they received in their youth.

But not the sex itself. Sex itself retards the aging process, I'm convinced.

Now working backwards to your first contention, it depends on the monger's approach. Here again we get back to how you monger versus how I monger. I've had some anonymous "zipless fucks" but that's not my normal approach. So I think, overall, my mongering career has led to the opposite of what you postulate. I've gotten to know more women personally and intimately than the average non-monger. I've interacted with more women, talked to more women, grown to understand more women, and am more comfortable with women than the average non-monger.

You think you are mongering because of the situation you are in, career-wise, location-wise, etc., and that at some point you will cease doing it and "find a mate; someone to have children with." and so forth, according to your posts. Maybe you will and maybe you won't but you view it as temporary and so you have to do mental gymnastics to justify it to yourself, because you ultimately view it as wrong or inferior somehow. You view prostitutes as inferior to other women.

I can say for sure that my mongering experiences have made me like women overall more and not less, have made me more at ease with non-prostitutes, and have made me more successful in my interactions with non-prostitutes.

I don't think porno does that. I think it does the opposite.

[Rubber Nursey]

1) Early parenthood and higher overall fecundity
2) Late hours and exposure to second-hand smoke (I suspect prostitutes smoke at a higher rate than the general public but I have no proof other than anecdotal)
3) Possible higher rates of drug use in some places
4) Coming from lower socio-economic strata to begin with, in general, which has implications for what kind of health care (especially dental care, which affects overall health more than is generally realized) and nutrition they received in their youth.
Well said. I'd agree with all of that. I'm not sure early parenthood would make you age faster (we're probably better able, physically, to deal with it when we're younger), but pregnancy and parenthood in general is tough on a woman's body - as is balancing single parenthood and a fulltime job.

We did a survey in WA a few years back and found that local sex workers used illicit drugs at about the same rate as the general community, but they were almost THREE TIMES more likely to smoke. A couple of Sydney surveys have had similar findings. I have no idea why that is.

I'd also add sun exposure for street workers and others who regularly solicit outside (like the old 'starting stalls' we had in Kalgoorlie and maybe even the Amsterdam window girls). Labourers, farmers, etc all seem to age faster than people who work indoors. You could probably add UV exposure from tanning salons as well, as heaps of hookers prefer sun beds to the actual sun, to avoid tan lines. :)

Oh, and this wouldn't be a Rubber Nursey post if I didn't mention the physical and psychological stress that living with constant stigma, fear and discrimination can cause.

However, I should say that I don't believe sex workers, as a group, age faster than regular women. Contrary to popular belief, we're not actually biologically different! All things being equal (socio-economic status, parenthood, drug use, etc), I reckon a street worker would age just as fast as any outdoor worker and a brothel worker would age just as fast as any indoor worker. Actually, a brothel or private worker may even age slower when you take regular exercise, massages, excessive skin and hair care, personal hygiene routines, etc into account? I know when I was working, I was fitter and healthier than I've ever been.

[Rubber Nursey]

RN this guy has proably fucked more women than any of us. One would think his opinion on things has some sway.
I've fucked somewhere around 5000 men (and women)...still doesn't give me the right to claim that I'm healthier, smarter and more well-adjusted that anyone else in the sex industry.

I sincerely respect his opinion as an expert in his field and I'm glad he shared such a positive personal experience with the world. The more sex workers out there showing people that we can be professional, smart (and human!), the better. But suggesting that he's 'one of the lucky ones' and everyone else is a complete fuck-up, undoes all that good work. "This is an industry that attracts weak-minded people" is entirely subjective and completely unfounded, and considering he was excluding *himself* from that group, an incredibly conceited statement to make.

[Dickhead]

Ummm Rub the sun seldom shines in Amsterdam and less so on the window girls. Narrow alleys, tall buildings, sun definitely not a factor. Europe in general is pretty cloudy. No holes in the ozone layer. Spain, maybe, it's an issue, or Italy.

I think early childbirth is correlated to more children on average so maybe I should have just left it at fecundity but actually, I do think that having a kid at 14 or 15 is tougher on the body than having one at 24 or 25. Now maybe then again it is less tough than having one at 34 or 35.

In Latin America and SE Asia I don't think it is nearly as common for working girls to go to the gym as it may be in other places where you have your idea of "maintaining the body to get top dollar." I know some fairly "high end" hookers here, although I don't normally get involved with them. And, it's popular to talk about the concept of going to the gym but rare to actually do so. Ha ha. I myself am a gym rat and I can spot a hooker pretty easily and I just don't think this happens much in the countries that have large numbers of hookers.

Of course the general populace, and not just hookers and mongers, loves to talk about "going to the gym and getting in shape" and it is often all just talk.

[Rubber Nursey]

LOL! Sorry. Using Europe as a sun exposure example was probably a bad idea. :) I was just trying to think of people who might not automatically be considered 'outdoor' hookers, but still come in regular contact with the sun. But tanning is a big one, whether in the sun or in tanning beds.

And by 'regular exercise', I didn't mean going to the gym. I meant sex. Probably ten times more effective than gym equipment and at least a hundred times more fun!

[Chocha Monger]

Any woman who stays up late at night smoking or in the company of smokers consuming alcoholic beverages will age faster. Doubt it? Take a look at the average American barfly in her thirties. These are just a few environmental factors but genetics, nutrition and stress levels play big role in the aging process too.

I've seen a 26 yr old half white half Korean chick with cellulite on the backs of her legs. She was in the military and getting lots of exercise so she wasn't overweight. It may have just been genetics and diet. I've seen women in their early thirties who looked like they were already in their fifties. Their skin had turned to wrinkled leather from tanning, smoking and all night drinking sessions.

I've also noticed that guys who go through bad divorces seem to undergo a rapid spurt of aging. Marriage and fatherhood seem to age men too and they gain a lot of weight in spite of having to work more to support a family.

I suspect the reason why some porn actresses end up looking like crap in the American porn industry has a lot to do with how commercialized sex is looked at in American society. Basically, a woman who does porn or prostitution is looked down on as shit. So it stands to reason that most Americans end up in porn when they've run out of options and are at the end of their ropes. They may already have drug problems, financial problems and family problems that drove them into the industry in the first place. The money from the porn just facilitates their downward spiral by giving them the means to feed their additions. The same happens to lottery winners who ironically think that the sudden windfall of cash will solve all of their problems.

[Gedanken]

Next installment, folks:

Dear Gedanken, ever the romantic. I assure you that I have loved every woman that I have ever fucked, even the ones who wanted a direct transfer of currency. You see, Gedanken my love is very short but sweet. You see the longer I am with a girl the more likely I am to notice her faults. When I love her for a few hours the perfect memory is captured in my mind forever. I will never lose my love for her and become disillusioned because she has grown fat, old, wrinkled, gray and toothless. Neither will I ever complain about her laziness, nagging and squandering of money. Surely, you cannot doubt me because love is an emotion which cannot be measured.Cocha Monger! Your opening sarcasm was most biting!

With regards to your claims to have loved every woman you’ve ever fucked, I am going to say that your claim is implausible and must insist upon Matthew 7:16 - “By their fruits you shall know them.” A clear distinction must be made between lust and love. Love is not like a tap which can be turned on and off at will (oh that it were that easy...) - lust, however, is!! You see an attractive woman; your lust is turned on; you pay her; you fuck her; your lust is turned off; you go your separate ways. Everything you said about your “very short” love perfectly matches the description of uncomplicated lust.

Your relationship with the girls you see bears none of the usual fruits of love: you do not desire to get to know them, indeed sometimes you won’t even ever know their real first name; you do not socialise with them; and you do not comfort them when they are sad - indeed, you are not even in a position to do so, since you only see them to fuck them and then leave them, usually never to make any sort of contact with them whatsoever ever again. On the other hand, your momentary relationship with the girls does bear all the fruits of the tree we call Lust. You can say the word ‘love’, Cocha Monger, but one is judged by one’s actions!! (See also my first batch of responses).


When a woman says that she loves you, you take her word for it. Perhaps, you try to judge her sincerity by her actions but actions can be misinterpreted. So it’s really her word. Maybe the poor girl loves you and has no wish to serve the queen only you. However, since you have no foolproof way of verifying this you look upon her wretched circumstances and assume that most probably she is being insincere out of desperation. That is not always the case is it Gedanken?I concede that this is not always the case, no, though I don’t want my concession to suggest that I think such cases are anything other than exceptional.

As you rightly mentioned, but did not seem to commit to fully, actions, actions, actions are what people are to be judged by. Anyone can say anything they want. If someone tells me, “I am a devoted father!” but I know that he can only be bothered to visit his daughter, who lives only a few miles away, once a month, I dismiss their empty words: they are not a devoted father, their actions clearly tell me so. Actions, not words, are what reveal the measure and motivations of a person.

With this in mind, if I were in Thailand, say, and a hot-but-poor girl were to confess her love for me, I would not laugh in her face, but I would have to stop myself from doing so. And that’s because unless I was entirely naive, I would reckon that if the girl’s parents had moved to England and so she’d born in England, she surely wouldn’t look at me twice, let alone fall in love with me; and that’s because no hot English girl has ever looked at me as a casual sexual partner, let alone The One material. I am just an average man, and hot, rich-world girls have no need for average men. They can take their pick from rich and/or good-looking men. I am not such a man. Even the much-famed woman’s love of a good sense of humour is, in my experience, a load of old horse shit. Women are just as shallow as men, and I have no time for women who claim to the contrary. All of this is not to say that I wouldn’t take advantage of a disingenuous, Thai stunner to get some good helpings of GFE!


Now, Gedanken, you said “human culture” suggests the opposite. Are you sure that you didn’t mean to say Western culture suggests the opposite...Wonderful stuff! Not only must I feel chastened for expressing myself in such a careless and ignorant fashion, I am also grateful for your picking me up on it because, upon re-reading what I wrote, I spotted something truly horrible that I had said.

And so, Cocha Monger, I’d like to do two things.

The first is to take back that truly horrible thing I’d said: “sex at its best is a loving activity between two emotionally mature humans.” Come along, Gedanken! Dwell on that careless statement for but a moment! No, loving sex is not “best”. It is better than poor-world mongering in the sense that the former is morally acceptable whilst the latter is not, but it is not best in any unqualified sense. If it were absolutely best then it would be better than uncomplicated, lustful fucking - but how can one meaningfully compare loving sex and lustful sex? Sure, the two of them are both morally acceptable and both use the same means to achieve their ends - but what are their respective ends? Lustful regular sex satisfies lust, whilst loving regular sex satisfies a desire to be emotionally close to someone you care about.

But why is it better to satisfy love than to satisfy lust? I can’t immediately think of a valid answer to that question, regardless of the sense in which the word ‘better’ is used; perhaps someone else can. For if ‘better’ is meant in terms of enjoyment, “loving sex is better than lustful sex” would mean that no one would ever want to have anything other than loving sex; ludicrous, ridiculous, absurd; and if ‘better’ is meant in a moral sense, then it would imply that loving sex is more morally acceptable than lustful sex; again, a ridiculous notion.

So no, I don’t think that loving sex is best and I was a fool for making a statement which suggested so. What I meant to say is merely that loving sex is better than poor-world mongering, and I mean ‘better’ in a moral sense. In terms of enjoyment, for me there is no difference between lustful regular sex and lustful mongering.

The second thing I must do is to take back my charge that prostitution is always and everywhere regarded less highly than regular male-female relationship viz. my Romeo and Juliet example. Whilst hunting for means of escape from your criticism, I was pinned down with this brief review of prostitution in Egypt (http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0006/000661/066103eb.pdf):

A prostitute was a woman who had sexual relations with a man to whom she was not married in return for a monetary payment. But in the early days, such women were not looked down upon. On the contrary, they were often highly respected and even considered sacred, since the first institutions where prostitution flourished were the temples of the gods.

In ancient Egypt, the god Amoun indulged in sexual relations freely with many women, concealing his debauches under a religious guise. Families chose their most beautiful daughters, and offered them to the priests of this temple. As soon as they grew too old to satisfy the sexual appetites or tastes of this priests, they were permitted to leave the temple surrounded by all due respect. Often they would marry into noble families and enjoy the greatest honours and respect. [Continued...]The obvious criticism to be offered about this quote is to ask how the beautiful daughters felt about being handed over to be used as prostitutes by their families - did they have any choice in the matter? - but that is beside the point. I’d said that Shakespeare doesn’t have Romeo handing over money to Juliet, and so set up the framework for any ensuing discussion to be how prostitution is generally viewed by societies, not by the girls involved. Gedanken promises to be more careful from now on!

And yes, it is a tough yarn to live up to. Let’s remember, though, that it is impossible to do so where there are no barricades. The conditions under which Romeo and Juliet’s love flourishes are that each of them is a member of two different groups which despise each other. (There is, of course, a ‘weaker’ situation where they are members of two groups, one of which hates the other group without that hatred being reciprocated by the other group). Most people, thank goodness, don’t live under conditions like that.

Human beings loving each other against the full force of a tsunami of other people’s hatred pushing them apart really is an amazing thing, examples being Jewish-Gentile relationships begun in Nazi Germany after September 1935 and Ashkenazi-Arab relationships in Israel today. It’s also worth adding that the kind of love between people that makes them feel like they can’t go on living without each other is standard, though its commonness doesn’t detract from its remarkableness; what are the words we all remember from those final phone calls made on 9/11? “I love you.”

The study cited by Ridley seems to me to be potentially worthless because of the sample size used (only two blocks of flats).


“The renowned anthropologist G.P. Murdoch, in his classic study Social Structure, found that of 238 different human societies around the globe, monogamy was enforced as the only acceptable marriage system in a mere 43. Thus before contact with the West, on average more than 80 percent of human societies were preferentially polygynous, meaning that male harem-keeping was something that most men sought to attain. It is safe to say that institutionalized monogamy was very rare.” - The Myth of Monogamy, Barash and LiptonWe notice that, compared to monogamy, polyandry is so rare that it doesn’t even warrant a mention - pause for thought.


Even now, Gedanken, young men are training to strap high explosive vests unto themselves and commit suicide attacks against both our countries in the hopes of spending eternity fucking 72 perpetual virgins. That is the reality of the world sir, not Romeo and Juliet.I can only say that we differ on our understandings of the motivations of suicide bombers. If you’re interested in what mine are, one book to check out is Dying to Win by Chicago’s Robert Pape.


Men like our Gedanken are, I think, attached to the idea that sex, as it is normally performed, is degrading to the woman or feminine partner(s) - that 'being fucked' is by nature degrading. I believe they see this as acceptable within a 'relationship' because the degraded party gets something she wants out of the arrangement - security, 'love', etc. This is just what society has taught us. Of course part of this is misogyny - the view that femininity, and its practice in a sexual role, is inferior or degraded.Affirming the consequent ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent):

Premise 1: If Gedanken disapproves of all sex, then Gedanken disapproves of poor-world mongering.
Premise 2: Gedanken disapproves of poor-world mongering.
Conclusion: Gedanken disapproves of all sex.

If you clicked the link, you’ll have seen that there are two cases where affirming the consequent is acceptable; neither is applicable here. Your argument is manifestly not a tautology, and the biconditional case would - given the context within which the entire argument is taking place - be guilty of begging the question.


I don't think the reason traditional prudes disapprove of prostitution is so much because of prostitution itself as because they actually disapprove of sex, and particularly sex for women, accept in situations where a great deal of pretense has been made to 'make up for' the hideous imposition of being fucked (such as marriage, relationships, etc.)Same again, but replace ‘Gedanken’ with ‘traditional prudes’, and ‘disapproves’ with ‘disapprove’.

Thanks for your kind words, Carlos! It is always interesting to hear someone else’s personal views on mongering. A shame I don’t speak German, Germany has such a rich intellectual history and culture. Alas, I am no philosopher, but merely a pompous-sounding Englishman who likes stirring things up. Isn’t life just so boring when everyone agrees with everybody else?

Can you accept that love and sex are two different things and that it is the nicest thing in the world to make sex with somebody you love. But making sex with somebody you just met and which you pay for the service is also ok if you do not get "love" thrown in (and this happens only rarely and absolute voluntarily)I do indeed accept your distinction between love and sex. I forsake love because I can’t be bothered with all the shit that comes with it and really enjoy fucking hot girls. Sure relationships have their pluses, so perhaps I won’t always feel like this - but I’m pretty sure I will.


I accept life as it is. If you are lucky and meet a girl which is smoking hot and which you love and the love is returned. Congratulations then. Then you have done everything right in life and life was good to you.Agreed. In the absence of a smoking hot girl to call my own, I too like to fuck girls who aren’t mine! ;D


If you are not so lucky. Make the best out of life. Like Monty Phyton. (Allways walk on the bright side of.) Then you have to pay for the sex. You might be lucky having a partner which loves you and which gives you good sex as well. I personally am a monger, I have a good partner but I like to enjoy also other skin, other smell and other sexual acts. Therefore girls which provide me with these services have my respect. They have their thoughts about why they work as a prostitute but I am really not in the faintest interested why they do it. For me it is ok that they do it.My good sir, I again agree with you completely. If one must monger, one must monger. And if we are happy mongering, why stop? There’re lots of hot girls out there to be enjoyed!!

More soon folks...

[Opebo]

Your argument is manifestly not a tautology...

I was not making the argument that you disapprove of all sex because you disapprove of third world prostitution. I was making the argument that you disapprove of all sex (for women) because you believe that it is somehow negative or demeaning for a woman to interact with a man in a purely sexual way (be a 'fuckstick', etc.).

[Rubber Nursey]

...take back my charge that prostitution is always and everywhere regarded less highly than regular male-female relationship... I was pinned down with this brief review of prostitution in Egypt.
Temple and/or Sacred prostitution existed in many ancient cultures, eg. Temple of Ishtar, Temple of Aphrodite. It still exists today in places like India (Devadasis). Temple prostitutes were revered as manifestations of the Goddess. Far from being social outcasts, they generally had greater status than regular women. In ancient Hebrew, for example, temple prostitutes were called kadeshah, which means 'consecrated female'. Temple prostitutes often had a ceremonial role in community events like coming of age rituals, fertility/harvest festivals and marriage.

The concept of the 'sacred feminine' continued through the ages, with or without a connection to religion. Hetaera, courtesans, geisha, etc lived in a completely different world to regular women. They were wealthy, educated, participated in politics and were the only women permitted to enter 'male only' spaces like war-rooms and gentleman's clubs and baths. Their lust and sexual prowess was prized, in times where lustful behaviour in regular women was reviled and punished. (With the exception of geisha, who were skilled cockteasers; creating the illusion of sexual availability, to keep their men wanting and wondering).

Modern day courtesans don't have the pride of place in society that their predecessors enjoyed (again excluding the geisha, who are still respected and revered), but they're certainly still around and still wield a degree of power. They are highly paid and highly respected by their sponsors. They are often privy to high-level information that men might not share with their wives or friends, in the knowledge that the courtesan will maintain strict confidentiality. Most importantly, like the ancient wh*res***, these women are prized not only for their bodies and/or sexual abilities, but also for their intelligence, sense of humour and companionship. Even in 'regular' prostitution, the popularity of the GFE has proven that many men are looking for something with more substance than just a quick fuck.

Your belief that most men are only after a quick, anonymous shag is misguided. Perhaps that's all *you* are seeking from P4P (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that) but in my experience, you would be in the minority. The male stereotype suggests that men have no emotions, no compassion, no need for 'connection' when it comes to sex, but I've rarely found that to be the case. If orgasm was the only aim of the game, a quick wank would suffice.

*** Sex worker rights activists are now reclaiming the word 'wh*re'. Unlike prostitute, a relatively modern word that used to mean 'offering yourself in public' (ie. street workers) and now means to debase yourself for financial gain, wh*re is derived from ancient words meaning 'desire' and 'dear' and 'love/lovemaking'. The origin of the word wh*re also forms the basis of words like 'caress', 'cherish' and 'charity'. Calling ourselves wh*res re-establishes the link between us and those ancient wh*res whose status in society was both accepted and respected. It also recognises the (sad) fact that once you have sex for money, you are forever tainted. Whereas prostitute denotes someone who is currently accepting money for sex, wh*re is a state of mind and a lasting identity.

[Macheath]

must insist upon Matthew 7:16 - “By their fruits you shall know them.”

but one is judged by one’s actions!!

As you rightly mentioned, but did not seem to commit to fully, actions, actions, actions are what people are to be judged by. Anyone can say anything they want.

Actions, not words, are what reveal the measure and motivations of a person. etc etc etc.

With this in mind, if I were in Thailand, say, and a hot-but-poor girl were to confess her love for me, I would not laugh in her face, but I would have to stop myself from doing so. And that’s because unless I was entirely naive, I would reckon that if the girl’s parents had moved to England and so she’d born in England, she surely wouldn’t look at me twice, let alone fall in love with me; and that’s because no hot English girl has ever looked at me as a casual sexual partner, let alone The One material.I thought Matthew was warning against hypocrites, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing etc. So if your point is that you, the tree, should judged or identified by your actions, the fruit of the tree, then let's look at your actions:

To simplify, you believe that it is immoral and degrading to pay for sex but you want to continue doing so. You assuage the guilt of your immoral actions by dehumanising your paid partners and turning them into "fucksticks".

You seem to think that, because you believe that you are being honest with yourself in these transactions, you are somehow morally superior to the rest of the, deluded, dishonest, crowd. I on the other hand think that you are a deluded self regarding arsehole. And you need an editor - if you were to ever write a book it could surely double as a doorstop.

Also on words and actions I might remind you of Turgenev's "a kind word is also a deed". But also the great Nick Lowe - "you gotta be cruel to be kind, in the right measure" etc.

On comparisons between different countries might I remind you that when in Thailand eg, the same rules do not apply as when in England eg, thank god - you might as well transplant the Thai girl to England and have her ask why so many attractive men are attached to pudgy, potato faced, nagging women. Kipling said it better:

I am sick o' wastin' leather on these gritty pavin'-stones,
An' the blasted Henglish drizzle wakes the fever in my bones;
Tho' I walks with fifty 'ousemaids outer Chelsea to the Strand,
An' they talks a lot o' lovin', but wot do they understand?
Beefy face an' grubby 'and --
Law! wot do they understand?
I've a neater, sweeter maiden in a cleaner, greener land!
On the road to Mandalay . . .

[Rubber Nursey]

Affirming the consequent ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent):
Premise 1: If Gedanken disapproves of all sex, then Gedanken disapproves of poor-world mongering.
Premise 2: Gedanken disapproves of poor-world mongering.
Conclusion: Gedanken disapproves of all sex.

Premise 1: Prostitution is a desperate act of those living in poverty.
Premise 2: Many people in developing countries are living in poverty.
Conclusion: Poor-world prostitution only occurs because people are poor.

Premise 1: Only poor people engage in prostitution, so there must be something wrong with people who do it when there are other opportunities available.
Premise 2: Women in rich countries with other employment opportunities often engage in prostitution.
Conclusion: There must be something wrong with first-world prostitutes.

Premise 1: Normal women associate sex with love.
Premise 2: Prostitutes have sex without love.
Conclusion: Prostitutes are abnormal.

Premise 1: Sex is dirty when not conducted within a loving relationship.
Premise 2: Prostitutes provide sex without love.
Conclusion: Prostitution is dirty.

[Chocha Monger]

Lustful regular sex satisfies lust, whilst loving regular sex satisfies a desire to be emotionally close to someone you care about.
Absolute poppycock! My cock doesn't differentiate between what kind of sex it's having. The desire to copulate is a biological response. One's cock feels tension and then one responds to the urge to relieve that tension. When I want to be emotionally close to a woman I hug or cuddle with her and tell her sweet things. I don't whip my cock out and tell her I want to emotionally connect with her. The idea that there are two types of randiness is absolute rubbish. It's like saying there are two different types of urges to take a crap or two different types of urges to take a [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140). Studies show that all initial attractions are based on physical attributes. It is only later that people develop romantic notions. In other words, you first become interested in a woman as a potential girlfriend/wife based on whether or not you think she's fuckable.

If you believe Third World mongering is wrong then why do you keep perpetuating injustice on these poor women with your rich First World cock? I mean you can volunteer to help these poor women become educated and self-employed in some kind of enterprise that doesn't involved you rooting them for a few quid. How can you take a moral stance when you obviously like the smell and feel of some beautiful impoverished young girl's fuck-hole as much as the most depraved old lecherous monger on here?

[Rubber Nursey]

My cock doesn't differentiate between what kind of sex it's having.
Well said. There is a time for sex and a time for love.
So sayeth the Lord.
Amen.

[Warbucks]

Absolute poppycock! My cock doesn't differentiate between what kind of sex it's having.

No but your mind and actions do.


If you believe Third World mongering is wrong then why do you keep perpetuating injustice on these poor women with your rich First World cock?

Because we can.


How can you take a moral stance when you obviously like the smell and feel of some beautiful impoverished young girl's fuck-hole as much as the most depraved old lecherous monger on here?

Saying all mongers are the same is like well saying all of anything is the same We are not bruh. We are not created equal.


Well said. There is a time for sex and a time for love.
So sayeth the Lord.
Amen.

LOL.

RN don't tell us your a religious person. If so I find that to border on insanity with your background.

[ThatGuy865]

absolute poppycock! my cock doesn't differentiate between what kind of sex it's having.there are plenty of married men who will do things with their cocks to a hoe that they would never ever do to their wives or want to. because of their respect for their wives. so therefore they do differentiate with their cocks.


the desire to copulate is a biological response. one's cock feels tension and then one responds to the urge to relieve that tension.thats at an animalistic level, but we being humans, also use our minds. thats why their are age limits, otherwise using your thinking then ****s would be justified.


studies show that all initial attractions are based on physical attributes. it is only later that people develop romantic notions. in other words, you first become interested in a woman as a potential girlfriend/wife based on whether or not you think she's fuckable.no that doesn't mean you want her as a girlfriend or wive. just you want to fuck her. i have fucked women i couldn't stand to be with. but because they gave great head or had a good body i did it. but would never want to spend a minute pass a nutt with her.

and how do you account for couples who don't want to have sex until they are married. they obviously don't fall in that category. they are not basing whether they are going to be a couple on the basis of how fuckable each one is to the other.

thats because we are humans and not animals. and as a lot of sex experts will tell you the most important sex organ is the brain.

[Jelly Donut]

regular male-female relationship viz. my Romeo and Juliet example. ...

I don't know why I'm so on about this, but R&J is not a regular relationship. Shakespeare is not laying down a model for a loving relationship in that story; love is not the point. This is just obvious stuff you should have covered when it was introduced to you in school. The story flows from the fact they are teenagers with no experience in life. It is a tragedy that they end up dead over a puppy infatuation. Juliet is 13 years old.

Thing is, your narrative imagination seems to be informed by what you have been told the story is about (the pop version of R&J), rather than reading it and measuring it against your own experiences.

[Opebo]

What is this obsession these hyper-rationalist psuedo-randian geeks seem to have with relating sex and love? Dudes, talk about insane. If you think you're so smart, why are you buying into that nonsense?

The two things have about as much to do with each other as either does with blood-sugar levels.

[Goga Fung]

WTF is this discussion about morality? If one thinks prostitution is not moral, why do you ever come to this board and interact with all these low life human beings looking for hos? If you feel guilty please go to church. All people here are adults, nobody will never make up their mind.

I think if you can get laid either with a beautiful wife, gf, ho or semi-ho, it's good and moral. If you cannot get laid, then it's very immoral. It leads to insanity and even violence, for example the Pittsburg guy who was shooting women after he could not get laid. What's interesting after I showed this story to several people, their first reaction was "poor guy". They did not even get right away that the women should be sorry to as well.

[Chocha Monger]

This romanticism is quite amusing, especially coming from hardened mongers. It is obvious that the moralists have no scruples when their dicks get hard. Put a pretty Third World hottie in front of them and they’ll ravish her fresh little cunny then throw a few bills at her. Why? They do it to satisfy their sexual desire. Sexual desire is a biological urge to fuck, to ejaculate into a pussy. To think that there are more noble forms of desire like “love” vs. “lust” is a load of horse manure. There is no science behind it. It’s nothing more than flowery words designed to cover man’s basest instincts. Preference for a symmetrical face, big boobs, a nice ass and youth has been researched and shown to be part of man’s instinctive nature.

It is interesting that people who claim to have no belief in a supreme being readily believe in such utter nonsense as love. Love is nothing more than surges of serotonin, other neurotransmitters and hormones. It is biological process that results in pair bonding. Arguing that sex outside of a pair bond is somehow less moral or noble than sex within a pair bond is ridiculous. But it does show that the people who believe this are well socialized individuals since this is exactly what civilized society wants in the West. The European colonizers brought Christianity, monogamy and death wherever they went. Of course, this never stopped them from putting the native women in the missionary position.

Theists actually have more grounds for belief in a god than romantics have grounds for belief in love. All the theists have to do is point out the cosmos and the order of things that permit life to exist on Earth. Romantics would be hard pressed to demonstrate love in the absence of all self interest.

“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.” - Albert Einstein

[Warbucks]

This romanticism is quite amusing, especially coming from hardened mongers. It is obvious that the moralists have no scruples when their dicks get hard. Put a pretty Third World hottie in front of them and they’ll ravish her fresh little cunny then throw a few bills at her. Why? They do it to satisfy their sexual desire. Sexual desire is a biological urge to fuck, to ejaculate into a pussy. To think that there are more noble forms of desire like “love” vs. “lust” is a load of horse manure. There is no science behind it. It’s nothing more than flowery words designed to cover man’s basest instincts. Preference for a symmetrical face, big boobs, a nice ass and youth has been researched and shown to be part of man’s instinctive nature.

So when people say they love their family, kids, parents this is horseshit too? You basically saying love does not exist in any form. Also I have never said sex outside of a relationship or love is bad but I would not want my kids or a family member to be a prostitute for simple respect, health, emotional, and physical reasons.


It is interesting that people who claim to have no belief in a supreme being readily believe in such utter nonsense as love. Love is nothing more than surges of serotonin, other neurotransmitters and hormones. It is biological process that results in pair bonding. Arguing that sex outside of a pair bond is somehow less moral or noble than sex within a pair bond is ridiculous. But it does show that the people who believe this are well socialized individuals since this is exactly what civilized society wants in the West. The European colonizers brought Christianity, monogamy and death wherever they went. Of course, this never stopped them from putting the native women in the missionary position.

It's also interesting how people proclaiming prostitution and fornication is the best thing since sliced bread can be Theist since its goes against every thing written in all religious texts. Guys talking about they believe in god when they advocate prostitution as a way of life. A lot of you guys are Atheist but just don't know it yet because if you were not you would have some fear of repercussions for living a life that is in contrast to what is written in the scriptures.



Theists actually have more grounds for belief in a god than romantics have grounds for belief in love. All the theists have to do is point out the cosmos and the order of things that permit life to exist on Earth. Romantics would be hard pressed to demonstrate love in the absence of all self interest.

Now this is horseshit. Point to the stars and believe in god. People also try to tell me there is a god because I should be glad to wake up every morning. I usually respond with why shouldn't I wake up I am healthy as a bull. Have any of you Theist seen god?.....nah I didn't think so. I have seen when someone loves someone though.


“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.” - Albert Einstein

That quote is ironic coming from the man who helped create the Atom bomb.

[Chocha Monger]

so when people say they love their family, kids, parents this is horseshit too? you basically saying love does not exist in any form. also i have never said sex outside of a relationship or love is bad but i would not want my kids or a family member to be a prostitute for simple respect, health, emotional, and physical reasons.
most of us feel some gratitude to our parents for having provided for us until we were able to fend for ourselves. in some cases they go beyond just raising us to adulthood and do additional things like sending us to college or setting us up in a business to give us an advantage over our peers. in those instances there is usually a feeling of great indebtedness to parents. on the other hand, there are numerous cases where people hate their parents. parents have a vested interest in seeing their offspring make it into the next generation. so raising kids is not a selfless act. in fact, some people exploit their own children. fathers screwing their own daughters is somewhat of a cliche in american hillbilly culture. however, looking out for the welfare of those sharing your dna is not exclusive to human beings. survival through procreation and the rearing of young is common to many animals, especially large mammals.



it's also interesting how people proclaiming prostitution and fornication is the best thing since sliced bread can be theist since its goes against every thing written in all religious texts. guys talking about they believe in god when they advocate prostitution as a way of life. a lot of you guys are atheist but just don't know it yet because if you were not you would have some fear of repercussions for living a life that is in contrast to what is written in the scriptures.

now this is horeshit. point to the stars and believe in god. people also try to tell me there is a god because i should be glad to wake up every morning. i usually respond with why shouldn't i wake up i am healthy as a bull. have any you of you theist seen god?.....nah i didn't think so. i have seen when someone loves someone though.

that quote is ironic coming from the man who helped create the atom bomb.
i wasn't making an argument for theism but rather pointing out that it is more of a leap to atheism compared to being a skeptic when it comes to love. i was also pointing out love of the sexual kind as expounded by gedanken the romantic. have you ever seen anyone give up their life to save someone they supposedly loved? i am talking about lovers not blood relatives.

[Shirokyu]

This could be in the HIV section as well.

Here is the link http://ideas.repec.org/p/nbr/nberwo/5428.html .

This is a bit dated with tri-therapy and all. But basically the argument is one that applies to dangerous STD where slippage is unavoidable and high sexual activity people (think professionals) do not protect themselves significantly better than less active people (which is not true of current STDs). Then the epidemic dynamics of having a small community of sexually active people, is worse than everybody cheating a little bit on each other.

This is because when one "explores" and everybody is being more chaste because of epidemics, your chance of meeting a very active partner are very high (just because of availability).

Not sure it applies to AIDS anymore - but in a presence of an STD where no significant action can be taken to protect one selves, then professionalisation of sex industry can have bad epidemiological consequences.

[Opebo]

Not sure it applies to AIDS anymore - but in a presence of an STD where no significant action can be taken to protect one selves, then professionalisation of sex industry can have bad epidemiological consequences.

It doesn't apply and of course never did, but the rational you present has often been marketed by the Forces of Social Control.

[CherchezFemme]

Interesting article on the sex trade in Costa Rica. He is pretty negative and breaks out the loser insult, and if they had money, looks, status,etc they wouldn't need to go to Costa Rica.

I love the money argument. Its OK for guys with lots of money, looks etc to have beautiful women or lots of sex in the US, but not for guys who go to foreign lands. In other words, stay home you average income, average looks, average job putz and accept what our society tells you to have. How dare you want to have a lot of sex! Make more money you loser!

This oft-repeated criticism loses sight of the fact that in other countries, I can be rich! Duh!

There are some stats on how many pros were abused as children, etc. Well, I was as well (to a small degree but nevertheless...) and I cannot and will not take responsibility for what was done to them. I can certainly sympathize.

I will say this: sleeping with me is an honor, not an insult and not abuse! They should be honored! lol I am good-looking, young and a gentleman. I have my flaws (I could lose about 30 lbs) as we all do.

Seriously, from what I saw in Costa Rica most americans were normal looking guys. There were some creepy old guys, a seriously obese man but that's about it.

BTW no offense to old guys: maybe I'll be there too 30 yrs down the road.

http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_5511

[Macheath]

This could be in the HIV section as well.Yes totally irrelevant, but by all means introduce fear into discussions of sex at every opportunity. "HIV/Aids", as we've come to know it, has been around for at least 30 years now, and has had no significant impact on heterosexual society anywhere where statistics can be put under scrutiny. Maybe in another 20 or 30 or 50 years this unreasonable fear will die a natural death or be replaced by another equally groundless - although I suppose we will all be under water then.

Q. Why are our, western, visions of the future generally so bleak, when in general terms every succeeding generation lives better than their parents? Must be a buck in it for someone.

[Chocha Monger]

Interesting article on the sex trade in Costa Rica. He is pretty negative and breaks out the loser insult, and if they had money, looks, status,etc they wouldn't need to go to Costa Rica.

I love the money argument. Its OK for guys with lots of money, looks etc to have beautiful women or lots of sex in the US, but not for guys who go to foreign lands. In other words, stay home you average income, average looks, average job putz and accept what our society tells you to have. How dare you want to have a lot of sex! Make more money you loser!

That is pretty much the concept in the US. Sex and beautiful women are the sole domain of the rich and powerful. Stay on the treadmill and compete, maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to make enough money to get laid by a beautiful woman too. And don't you dare think of cheating the system by going abroad and getting the same thing in the Third World for less because you're a loser. You don't deserve those women and you shouldn't get any pussy.

When people go abroad instead of working harder in the hopes of getting some pretty tale they are cheating the government out of taxes and the corporations out of labor. Instead of struggling to get into the boardroom to earn a bigger salary mongers might decide to take up low pressure employment with plenty of down time to visit flesh markets in the developing world. There you see. I said it! Third World mongering is bad. It's terrible for the G8 too because their citizens may become less motivated to take up a trophy wife and breed some kids to provide labor and consumption.

First there was IMBRA, then passports/travel cards became mandatory for international travel and Swiss banks now share information with the IRS on US citizens. What will the New World Order bring next?

[Warbucks]

I will say this: sleeping with me is an honor, not an insult and not abuse! They should be honored! lol I am good-looking, young and a gentleman. I have my flaws.....

I said the same shit to this effect on the PI boards and was accused of being an arrogant son-of-a-*****. I but I feel the same way.


That is pretty much the concept in the US. Sex and beautiful women are the sole domain of the rich and powerful. Stay on the treadmill and compete, maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to make enough money to get laid by a beautiful woman too.

CM man you seem to be doing good with those "American Women" hell if I had your hand I would cut mine off. When I was in the States all I got to play with was Hoeish sisters, Cali Chinese, Rich Mexicans, and Samoan imports :(

[Rubber Nursey]

rn don't tell us your a religious person. if so i find that to border on insanity with your background.
sex work and religion are not mutually exclusive. there are many, many sex workers who consider themselves religious! but you're right...i'm definitely not one of them. i just thought cm's comments were great 'words to live by'. amen, all praise the prophet chocha.

mind you, organised religion does make a clear distinction between sex and love. there are women you fuck (wh*res and slaves) and women you marry (sexless babymakers, hence the need for wh*res and slaves). the christian/catholic bible is the most sexist text known to mankind. women were enslaved, raped, traded as currency and routinely punished for the sins of their fathers, husbands and sons. reproductive control was paramount and, as we all know, the concept of controlling reproduction and female sexuality is still central to many modern laws. how any woman can be a part of organised religion is beyond me. i'm guessing most of them have never actually read the bible.


so when people say they love their family, kids, parents this is horseshit too? you basically saying love does not exist in any form.
no, i think he's saying that love exists in many forms.

[Chocha Monger]

I said the same shit to this effect on the PI boards and was accused of being an arrogant son-of-a-*****. I agree.



CM man you seem to be doing good with those "American Women" hell if I had your hand I would cut mine off. When I was in the States all I got to play with was Hoeish sisters, Cali Chinese, Rich Mexicans, and Samoan imports :(
Illogic,
I'd say that you are doing pretty good for yourself. It hasn't always been good for me. When I joined the Army it seemed that I was only attracting poor rural American women dreaming of getting on Tricare and living in government housing on base. Officers may be able to attract better looking women but these women are looking to hang out at home baking cookies for the unit in return for half of your pension upon retirement. That is not something I was looking forward to. When I traded my uniform for a suit and a tie women with a life started being interested in me again. I kind of resented the fact that serving my country seemed to put me into some kind of lower social status. I was college educated but when people saw that uniform they made certain assumptions.

Ironically, I know American women with doctorates, good incomes, houses and fat retirement accounts. These are the women I hand the keys to my vehicle and place when I travel. I tell them that I'm off to root some chicks in another country and they scold me for being nasty. They can often be more reliable than men in taking care of my stuff. I try to keep my dick out of these women because I don't want to ruin a good thing. If I start rooting them it introduces the normal female emotions that come with that sort of thing. Emotions like jealousy, revenge, possessiveness, spite and anger. Plain and simple these women want undying love and devotion. I can't or wouldn't give it to them, so they settle for my friendship.

In early adulthood I dealt with a female vampire. You know, the kind of woman that drains you sexually and emotionally, extremely jealous and controlling. I swore off commitment after that. Who needs a woman checking their bank account, checking their whereabouts and making silly accusations? So while I don't need to monger I find it better than getting into a relationship. Otherwise normal and agreeable women undergo metamorphosis into monsters once they identify a male as "my boyfriend" or "my husband."

The best relationships I've had with American women were with workaholic Asian chicks, or chicks who already had a man at home. This meant that they had other things to think about other than making me miserable. Living apart also gives me my privacy, though I have nothing to hide. A man needs a sanctuary where he can rest and think away from others.

I have always thought that American women make great friends. They'd probably make great wives if it wasn't for a system than makes it so easy and tempting to take advantage of men in a marriage. If you take honest people and give them incentives to steal without any negative consequences you can hardly blame them for doing so. It's not really the women, it's the system, the society and the media. That is why even the most innocent foreign woman changes in short order after residing in the US. I know of Asian guys who almost get a stroke when their formerly demure little wives start cussing out their mother-in-law.

Just because someone can say or do something doesn't mean that they should. In America we've become so individualistic and materialistic that traditional pair bonds that require compromise like marriage are no longer viable.

[CherchezFemme]

When people go abroad instead of working harder in the hopes of getting some pretty tale they are cheating the government out of taxes and the corporations out of labor. Instead of struggling to get into the boardroom to earn a bigger salary mongers might decide to take up low pressure employment with plenty of down time to visit flesh markets in the developing world. There you see. I said it! Third World mongering is bad. It's terrible for the G8 too because their citizens may become less motivated to take up a trophy wife and breed some kids to provide labor and consumption.Never quite considered the economics of it!

[Bango Cheito]

I dunno about that CM... I think in many ways Colombians are even MORE individualistic than Americans... although materialistic... perhaps they are less, perhaps they are equally materialistic... although they get on average less OPPORTUNITY to be materialistic.

But I think both here and back in the US and Canada, prostitutes look BETTER than the general population on average. It stands to reason, their body is their currency, so they put more effort into taking care of it. I have seen regular girls that got into prostitution, both here and in North America, and I have watched the transformation firsthand!

Somebody PLEASE tell me what is supposed to be so fucking great about monogamous relationships, and what are their advantages? I personally think they are obsolete and don't work anymore, if they ever really DID work as advertised!

[CherchezFemme]

I have a question on how to behave with the girls. I believe in being nice to the girls but I think its also b/c I'm a little bit embarassed about doing it. I think deep down I may feel its "IMMORAL" or "NOT PROPER".

So I ask:

How do you recommend that I (and mongers) talk to / deal with SW to get the best service:

A) In general and

B) when you want to ask for specific sexual acts that are not always offered, for example anal, CIM, ATM.

For a) Are you warm and friendly with working girls? Business like? Flirty? Reserved but strong? Loud, aggressive, macho?

What do you say if she does not take the initiative?

For b), one thing I have learned from these forums is that I need to specify what I want and for how much before going with the girl.

So how do you ask for anal, CIM, ATM, etc.

Do you just say 'How much for anal'? Or 'Anal is included, right? ' or 'You know, you look like a really fun girl. I'd love to ATM with you'

Also, have you ever convinced a SP to do something she first said no to? I have read posts where mongers have said they were able to do that, possibly b/c the girl only wants to do it with certain men. Did this happen right away or after multiple visits?

[ThatGuy865]

That is pretty much the concept in the US. Sex and beautiful women are the sole domain of the rich and powerful. Stay on the treadmill and compete, maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to make enough money to get laid by a beautiful woman too.It doesn't take all that. When I was making next to nothing I still had beautiful women.

If you are in your 20's and Fat, why should a beautiful women go with you. You don't want to lay a 20yr old Fat woman. But they are suppose to want to lay 20yr old fat guys. Whats up with that.

Get a personality and get out from in front of the TV/Video games. And its not that hard to get laid.

Face it there aren't that many rich guys. That every beautiful woman is going to have a rich or Brad pitt kind of guys.


And don't you dare think of cheating the system by going abroad and getting the same thing in the Third World for less because you're a loser. You don't deserve those women and you shouldn't get any pussy.

When people go abroad instead of working harder in the hopes of getting some pretty tale they are cheating the government out of taxes and the corporations out of labor.This is Ludicris, The majority (not all) I repeat. The majority (not all) of people who travel abroad are the more affluent in america. Its not the poor or even the middle class who travel the most. The middle class that does travel are usually taking cruises. Its mainly the ones who you say are getting all the women in the first place are the ones who do the real traveling.

[Rubber Nursey]

... in a presence of an std where no significant action can be taken to protect one selves, then professionalisation of sex industry can have bad epidemiological consequences.
actually, it's the complete opposite. in australia, sex workers have amongst the lowest hiv/sti rates in the world; lower than the australian general population. this is a direct result of the australian sex industry being largely decriminalised and/or 'professionalised'. unlike sex workers in highly criminalised environments, we have the power to enforce condom use and refuse clients. we also have access to govt-funded peer organisations which provide sexual health education, oh&s and legal advice and other professional development services.

there *is* a way to protect yourself from stis that are transmitted by skin-to-skin contact. visual inspection. one of the first things new oz sex workers learn is how to identify visible signs of stis. if they see one, they will refuse to provide the service (or offer a low-risk alternative). a sex worker who uses condoms and refuses service to anyone with suspect bumps and rashes, is less likely to catch something than regular sexually active folk who never use condoms or check for visible stis.

if we want to talk 'bad epidemiological consequences', how about the arrogance and sheer selfishness that led to western australia seeing a recent spike in hiv infection amongst heterosexual men. the spike was in fifo miners, travelling to se asia on their breaks. these men believe that only poofs, wh*res and junkies catch hiv...they seriously think they're not at risk. the media has blamed asian sex workers for the recent infections, but whatever happened to shared responsibility?

so as you can see, in australia: professionalisation of the sex industry = low sti/hiv rates. ignorance in the general community = public health menace.

[CherchezFemme]

It doesn't take all that. When I was making next to nothing I still had beautiful women.

If you are in your 20's and Fat, why should a beautiful women go with you. You don't want to lay a 20yr old Fat woman. But they are suppose to want to lay 20yr old fat guys. Whats up with that.

Get a personality and get out from in front of the TV/Video games. And its not that hard to get laid.

Face it there aren't that many rich guys. That every beautiful woman is going to have a rich or Brad pitt kind of guys.

The majority (not all) of people who travel abroad are the more affluent in america. Its not the poor or even the middle class who travel the most. The middle class that does travel are usually taking cruises. Its mainly the ones who you say are getting all the women in the first place are the ones who do the real traveling.Its great that you were getting laid and that it wasn't hard. Not everyone is in that same category. Some men either have a hard time getting laid or have a hard time getting the types of women they want. Period. That's why some of us are here.

I agree about getting away from the TV/x-box and trying to become a more outgoing, well-rounded person with personality.

[Macheath]

If we want to talk 'bad epidemiological consequences', how about the arrogance and sheer selfishness that led to Western Australia seeing a recent spike in HIV infection amongst heterosexual men. The spike was in FIFO miners, travelling to SE Asia on their breaks. These men believe that only poofs, wh*res and junkies catch HIV...they seriously think they're not at risk. The media has blamed Asian sex workers for the recent infections, but whatever happened to shared responsibility?I hate getting sucked in by this off topic, gratuitous piece of man bashing but. Don't know how you can say that the "arrogance and sheer selfishness", or their beliefs, of this group of men is any different from the attitudes, behaviour and beliefs of any other group of men in general terms. Maybe they're an easy target because generally considered to be bogans or hicks or yobs or hillbillies. Choose your preferred stereotype.

As for the dubious statement about spike in HIV infection in WA. What does this mean eg. Maybe a 100% spike because reported cases went from 2-4 or 5-10. No doubt someone will get generously funded to investigate this worrying phenomenon, present papers, go to conferences etc. Money which could go to addressing real health problems such as breast and prostate cancer, or social evils such as domestic violence and alcohol abuse.

[Jelly Donut]

Interesting article on the sex trade in Costa Rica. He is pretty negative and breaks out the loser insult......
http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?id=content_5511
It's a good ad for the Blue Marlin.

I had no idea Costa Rica was getting 125,000 single male visitors per year. It shows how the Internet is shifting things around; I can't imagine Costa Rica saw anywhere near that level of tourism 10 years ago. Poor GQ has to pay lip service to the old media conventions while providing young men the keys to an informed life ""Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

My panties did get rumpled over the idea that ISG-types don't have a clue about when a woman is cumming. It's true you can fool some of the people some of the time, but if the author is an average Amercian male he can hope to have sex with 7 women over the course of his life. It reminded me of the old joke...


An elderly couple were rocking in their rockers on their front porch one evening. For no apparent reason, the women gets up, walks over and slaps the old man, then returns to her rocker. He says, "What the hell was that for?" She says, "That's for being a lousy lover all these years!" A few minutes later he gets up, walks over to her and slaps her. She says, "What was that for?" He says, "That's for knowing the difference!"

....the reality is, 7 women, that might give you some idea of how different women behave during sex, but 7 women you just can't really know anywhere near what a typical sex tourist knows about sex. Seven women is a weekend in the Dominican Republic; certainly not enough to project attitude. If a sex tourist says he's confident a women had an orgasim, well, chances are damn good she did; a female orgasim is important to the average Joe, it's basically academic to a sex tourist. The average guy who does not womanize just does not have much information to know the difference or make hard judgments.


I am a man of distinctive taste and most of the women I have encountered, the average Joe would have proposed marriage to on the first date.

Just felt the need to quote Wilt Chamberlain.

There are many, many sex workers who consider themselves religious!

I had a curious conversation with a women last week. She's Colombian, a sex worker and Catholic - she was angry with another working girl and friend who recently went for an abortion. She was angry even though it's clear to everyone her friend is in no way prepared to parent anyone (drugs, unsure of the father, overly self-concerned, etc).

But that was all beside the point in her opinion. She loves babies and the fact that the Church backs her up almost seems unimportant (religion and God did not directly come up in the conversation). She claims she would have had the baby.

[Bango Cheito]

Just to chime in, here in Colombia as well, sex workers have a LOWER prevalency of STDs than the general population. Furthermore, STDs are a big problem in the cities OTHER than Bogota because there is a big strong culture of condom use these days. Condoms really do do their job, plain and simple.

[Rubber Nursey]

I hate getting sucked in by this off topic, gratuitous piece of man bashing but. Don't know how you can say that the "arrogance and sheer selfishness", or their beliefs, of this group of men is any different from the attitudes, behaviour and beliefs of any other group of men in general terms. ...No doubt someone will get generously funded to investigate this worrying phenomenon, present papers, go to conferences etc.
Just to clarify - I don't do man-bashing. I believe anyone (male, female or otherwise) who knowingly puts other people's sexual health at risk, is selfish and arrogant. I get just as pissed off about irresponsible women ...but in this particular example, the 'offenders' are male. I read the local punter boards and constantly find them bragging about what some 'cheap Asian hooker' did to them, often without a condom. Any comments about safe sex are met with, "As a man, MY chance of catching something is really low". What they mean is that their risk of catching HIV is low (which, of course, it is). They don't care if they catch a 'minor' STI, because they can get antibiotics when they get home. Too bad if he's spread it through half of Thailand's sex industry by then. And too bad if he gets someone pregnant. Not his problem. I'm sorry, but I think that's the height of selfishness.

I'm not an HIV alarmist. Quite the opposite, actually. I think the focus on HIV has been extremely detrimental to the sexual health of the wider community. I used HIV in my post because that's the first example that popped into my head. I could have used chlamydia or syphilis, both of which are spreading like wildfire through Oz. I could have used teenage pregnancy rates, or PID-related infertility. What I was getting at was that ignorance in the general community is a much greater public health risk than 'professionalised prostitution'. And I attribute that ignorance to 30 years of public health campaigns convincing people that a) if you're not a poof, wh*re or junkie, you're not at risk of HIV, and b) HIV is the only thing that sexually active people need to worry about.

If there's going to be any extra funding allocated (which I highly doubt) I would like to see it used to remind the public about all the other STIs - and pregnancy - and promote shared responsibility in sexual health.

PS.
Maybe they're an easy target because generally considered to be bogans or hicks or yobs or hillbillies. Choose your preferred stereotype.
I assure you, there was no stereotyping or judgement intended. I was born and bred in rural Western Australia and live right near a minesite. Bogans and yobbos are my homeboys. :)

PPS. Public health discussions do sort of fit into this topic - not the specifics of STIs and condom use, but the health-related motives behind prostitution legislation (that the original poster alluded to). The idea that hookers are unable, or unwilling, to look after their own sexual health is a direct result of the belief that we are immoral, abused and suffer low self-esteem. That said, people don't really give a shit if hookers die of nasty diseases. In the general public's eyes, the risk to public health comes when clients - immoral, dirty perverts who think with their dicks - put their 'innocent' wives and girlfriends at risk. It's easier, and infinitely cheaper, to criminalise prostitution than it is to educate the general public about sexual honesty and personal responsibility.

[Gedanken]

This is a brief off-topic response. I’ll post a tonne of on-topic replies tomorrow.


Re: terrorism.

Totally the wrong thread for this but which chicken came before which egg? Have you read the Qora'an? Because I have, in its entirety, and would argue the religion is inherently radical.The egg of radicalised-Muslim terrorism was laid primarily by the US (my country and others have supported faithfully): (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/), here’s good old Brzezinski in action! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJTv2nFjMBk) You can take Robert Pape, as I’ve mentioned before. You can take the former executive dean of Harvard’s Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study, Louise Richardson (http://www.salon.com/books/review/2006/09/15/richardson/). You can take Michael Scheuer, former head of the CIA unit responsible for tracking bin Laden:
As I complete this book, U.S., British, and other coalition forces are trying to govern apparently ungovernable postwar states in Afghanistan and Iraq, while simultaneously fighting growing Islamist insurgencies in each – a state of affairs our leaders call victory. In conducting these activities, and the conventional military campaigns preceding them, U.S. forces and policies are completing the radicalization of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result, I think it fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden’s only indispensable ally.You can take the US’s own National Intelligence Estimates: “The Iraq conflict has become the ‘cause célèbre’ ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/26/washington/27prexycnd.html) for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of U.S. involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement.” You can take the mere 600% rise in terrorism post-Iraq detailed in the study by Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/03/iraq-101-iraq-effect-war-iraq-and-its-impact-war-terrorism-pg-1): “Our study yields one resounding finding: The rate of terrorist attacks around the world by jihadist groups and the rate of fatalities in those attacks increased dramatically after the invasion of Iraq. Globally there was a 607 percent rise in the average yearly incidence of attacks and a 237 percent rise in the average fatality rate.”

For needless confirmation of US support for brutally repressive governments in the Middle East, you can take the Pentagon’s own Defense Science Board (http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/2004-09-Strategic_Communication.pdf):
Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt (http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/egypt/page.do?id=1011147), Saudi Arabia (http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2001/12/19/human-rights-saudi-arabia-deafening-silence), Jordan (http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/jordan), Pakistan (http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2009/3130/) and the Gulf states (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61696.htm). Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy... The United States finds itself in the strategically awkward - and potentially dangerous - situation of being the longstanding prop and alliance partner of these authoritarian regimes. Without the U.S. these regimes could not survive.It's off-topic, so I'll stop here.

[Bango Cheito]

I'm also still waiting for an example of ANY class of profession of people who know collectively better what they want out of life than sex workers do. I just don't see it.

[Chocha Monger]

Gedanken,

I don't doubt that the US may have hastened the radicalization of some Muslims. However, you can't dismiss the fact that the central goal of the religion is to convert the entire world to Islam and bring about world government under that religion. Infidels who submit to Islamic rule and refuse to convert can only reside in lands under Islamic control in a state of dhimmitude.

It would be naive to think that radical Islam would have confined itself to a few madrasas in the Middle East even if the United States had allowed Israel to fall and never intervened to secure the supply of oil. We could have left Saddam in Kuwait and let the other Arab countries figure it out. The oil would have continued flowing regardless of which flag happened to be flying over the oil fields.

What about Sweden's radical Muslim problem? http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

Were the Muslims radicalized by Sweden's open doors policy and neutrality?

[Gedanken]

gedanken,

i don't doubt that the us may have hastened the radicalization of some muslims. however...shame dickhead, you and i are off-topic, so i'll be good boy now and just state that i disagree with you.

---

my replies are going to be shorter for what now follows, since i have a lot to get through. they are shorter, so they will probably seem curt - apologies in advance. typing stuff out does not allow me to convey my tone of voice. and i think i love you rubber nursey ;d

more to come tomorrow.


lex suggesting that he's 'one of the lucky ones' and everyone else is a complete fuck-up, undoes all that good work. "this is an industry that attracts weak-minded people" is entirely subjective and completely unfounded, and considering he was excluding *himself* from that group, an incredibly conceited statement to make.i don’t think lex is suggesting everyone who goes into porn is weak-minded. his opinion, of course, is subjective, but it is an opinion based on years in the industry. to say that the industry attracts the weak-minded whilst not considering himself as such is not necessarily conceited or arrogant: he could be factually correct. i’ve no idea whether lex is weak-minded, but given the bold decision he made to go into porn in the first place, plus his former career as a trader, i’m inclined to withhold judgment.


[y]ou view [mongering] as temporary and so you have to do mental gymnastics to justify it to yourself, because you ultimately view it as wrong or inferior somehow. you view prostitutes as inferior to other women.the former is true, the latter is false. i do not regard prostitutes as inferior to other women. i stick to one small subset of prostitutes: the really good-looking ones. i am simply claiming that poor-world mongering is immoral. mongering has an inevitable spill-over effect in terms of the way i (mentally) regard most very attractive non-wg girls. as for your average girl, my mongering has made zero difference to my view of them.


i can say for sure that my mongering experiences have made me like women overall more and not less, have made me more at ease with non-prostitutes, and have made me more successful in my interactions with non-prostitutes.i can’t say that mongering has improved my view of women’s sexuality, restricted as it is to turning up, taking advantage of it for shallow personal gain, and then buggering off.


i don't think porno does that. i think it does the opposite... porno is for people with no imagination. it's immature and masturbatory. it does not interest me in the slightest and never has. flesh and blood live sex. i'm not into watching.mongering is even more extreme than porn. mongering is porn where you are the actor. and porn is all about imagination, necessarily so.


now i am going to say something that will [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) some people off. [mongering] is for losers and guys like this gym killer in pa and the guy who killed all those people at virginia tech... they can't interact with people and because of all the [mongering] they [do] they... end up dissatisfied for the most part. they are trying to re-create some jack off fantasy... many have never had a long-term relationship. many were virgins until a fairly late age (this is why they need [mongering] because they [lack the experience necessary to make a success of regular, adult relationships]). as you can see, one could make the same unkind remarks about many mongers, dickhead.


agreed. this also happens with the monger. excessive sex to go.roger that.


sure, plenty of fairly normal people enjoy [mongering], but in general it's just a lot of exploitative non-productive bullshit and does not represent any improvement in society. i've been around the industry a fair amount as we were renting out [a] house... for [mongering] and stuff. it was really slimy for the most part, in my opinion.again, as you can see you can say the same about mongering.



in my limited worldview, it is only the *****s and artists...lol.roger that, illogic.


imagine it's one day in the future and you're a father. your son or daughter comes to you and says, "dad, i want to be a pornographic movie star." what would your reaction be? “in no way would i recommend this job to my best-friend, let alone my children.”interesting reading lex’s views, thanks for posting illogic.


grrrr. i hate when hookers and porn stars do this. rave on and on about how fabulous your job is, while at the same...lex seems to have his head screwed on.


i don't mind doing [fellatio] as a brief foreplay, but making a woman come from a good deep hard fuck is, well, just an essential part of being really satisfied.good man, couldn’t agree more.


i pay the hoe to service me. i don't pay her to service her. if she doesn't get her's. who gives a damn. it ain't even in the plan. i don't go to a restaurant to get the cook fed and i don't go to a p4p to get them off.bravo, sir! i cannot praise this point of view highly enough!!


you know what? anybody who does a job they don't like for any long period of time is a fucking idiot.without any discussion of mitigating circumstances this claim is not credible.

let us juxtapose dickhead’s words with those of opebo’s:

i know a lot of mongers don't even care if hookers come or not. me, if i can't make 'em come after seeing them three or four times i don't go back. myabe this is my own hang-up or insecurity but really i think it's more i just dig making women come. and it takes back some of the power the woman has. my favorite is making 'em come with my tongue so that's obviously pretty much clitoral. i especially like making 'em come when they don't want to (maybe that's [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)?) or say they can't or won't.
does it ever seem funny to you that the whole of western civilization, or perhaps civilization in general, seems so based on this obsession with controlling the vagina?whilst opebo’s claim is extraordinary, it does seem to apply to dickhead, who seems obsessed with controlling the women he sees. indeed, if they have the temerity to not allow him to make them cum, if he isn’t allowed to achieve total control of her sexual organs, he won’t even go back! finally dickhead’s real reasons for mongering become clear!

more on dickhead’s yearning for control of women’s bodies!!!

the way to break a sex strike is to lie next to her, beat off, and wipe it on her.a sex strike! the temerity! how dare she?!!! that’s right, she exercises her right not to have sex with you, i.e. exercises her right to have control of her body, and give a drenching of cum as punishment. nice stuff, dickhead!!


precisely. does it ever seem funny to you that the whole of western civilization, or perhaps civilization in general, seems so based on this obsession with controlling the vagina?no, and that’s the first time i’ve ever heard such an extreme point of view expressed. all human civilisation is based on controlling the vagina? if you can flesh out that thesis you’ll get a nobel in the social sciences.


i know! it's little wonder that so many women hate sex/don't masturbate/can't orgasm when they're constantly being told their vagina (and sexual desire) is dirty and dangerous.things must be radically different in australia compared to england.


and the concept of controlling female sexuality extends way past the vagina. most countries have laws banning (or heavily regulating) prostitution, abortion, surrogacy, egg donation, ivf, etc. anything to do with the female reproductive system, really.prostitution legislation is in many cases not to do with controlling the vagina, but controlling the dick. that’s why i hate anti-mongering legislation.


the stigma attached to prostitution - especially the idea that hookers are forced into doing things they don't want to do and can't refuse clients - would keep many nymphos away.i think the thing which keeps most women away from prostitution is the thought of having to surrender their bodies to stimulation by men who they don’t find the least bit attractive.


it is so important to so many people to believe that something-going-in is 'degrading' while something-going-out is just the opposite.again, we lose the distinction between regular sex and prostitution. poor-world prostitution is not degrading because of the in-out motion, but by the nature of the relationship. it’s like saying slavery isn’t degrading because all slaves are doing is working on a farms. is farming degrading? no, so then neither is slavery by your logic.


if only we could think of it as 'rubbing things together'.if self-deception is taken to staggering new heights, such a point of view may be believed by a person and allow someone to fuck poor girls and not feel guilty about it. if sex is merely rubbing things together, like hands, why is it so harmful to children to have it done to them? there’s more to sex than just rubbing things together, even in the most shallow of encounters.


there was a study done a while ago (i can't remember who did it and can't be bothered looking it up) that found prostitution in the top 5 female sexual fantasies.there was a study done a while ago which i can remember and have the link for which found that another common female fantasy is being raped: “between one-third and more than one-half of women have entertained such fantasies, often during intercourse, with at least 1 in 10 women fantasizing about sexual assault at least once per month in a pleasurable way.” ( http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all ) does that mean as many as half of women secretly want to be raped, and would enjoy it if they were?


yes, the dirty little secret is that the life of a prostitute is often quite fun and appealing, and can even be sexually enjoyable.the temptation to make a certain remark steps forward, but you’re such a nice girl, nursey, that i easily push the temptation back down.


i've always had a bit of a theory about female sexuality...i have a theory about women and broccoli: some women love broccoli; some women don’t love broccoli but will eat it; and some women hate broccoli and so refuse to eat it.



yes women usually hate other women, particularly prostitutes, much more than men hate them.amen to that. they can condemn the 'patriarchy' all they like, but in most cases, women are their own worst enemies. when it comes to sex work debate, the sisterhood are definitely not my sisters.what study shows that more than 50% (“usually”) of women hate women more than they hate men? if different to the first study, which study shows that such woman-hating women particularly hate prostitutes?


i have a theory (hardly novel) that it is because the prostitutes undercut the extremely high price 'regular' women charge for the same services.i... don’t know what to say to this. so all women are just resource-craven scroungers? and he calls me a misogynist. this kind of idle sexism might allow you to conflate regular sex with prostitution, but if we ditch the sexism then we can dispense with such nauseating conflation.


i don't think it's... about undercutting married women.so far so good, rubbie!


quite the opposite, actually.aaaaaaah!!


for lots of women, dating/marriage is a competition and sex workers just don't fight fair.aaaaaaah!!


and i think in many cases, they're jealous, plain and simple.again the temptation steps forward.


your logic that a sex worker is what she thinks she is a fallacy. i know mafia types back in my american slum who think they are businessmen this does not mean they are.agreed, mr illogic.


that's not exactly what i meant. gedanken said sex workers 'choose to be a fuckstick' ie. they choose to be degraded and dehumanised. they don't. they choose to earn a living as a sex worker.if being a sex-worker entails becoming a fuckstick, saying that they choose to be a professional fuckstick is the same as saying that they choose to be a sex-worker.


i know it sounds like i'm just being pedantic, but the belief that we 'choose to be degraded' is really the cornerstone of all the myths and stereotypes about hookers.... ;d

[qupte=rubbey]if we would 'choose to be degraded', then it follows that we must have no self-esteem...[/quote]that’s a non sequitur: if you don’t regard yourself as degraded, then low self-esteem will not follow; indeed, you might even take pride in your degradation and feel good about it.


... no morals, may have been abused as kids, don't care about our own sexual health, can't be trusted to care for our own children, etc. anti-prostitution zealots use the 'too degraded to realise they're being degraded' line to discredit sex worker activists, and society (including some clients) uses it to excuse vilification and/or violence. while people continue to believe that hookers are 'asking for it' ([CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), violence, exploitation, corruption), we're gonna continue copping it.no morals? don’t care about sexual health? i agree: that’s all ludicrous. too degraded to realise they’re degraded? that’s also ludicrous. self-deception, on the other hand...


the self regarding and wordy thinker gedanken also seems to have a degree of self hatred, but more disturbing to me on an aesthetic level is his reference to women as "fucksticks". this is the terminology that one might expect from a psychopath.i am no thinker, and the reason most people dislike me is the same reason that dick cheney ignored cia reports saying that iraqi wmd was non-existent, and hated the “politicized” intelligence smack-down regarding iran’s supposed nuke programme ( http://www.reuters.com/article/topnews/iduswbt00801220071203): the bubble of self-deception must not be penetrated, and those who do attempt to penetrate it must be vilified and got rid of.

making at least a semi-cogent argument involves being wordy, so i am guilty as charged. and i did not say women are fucksticks, i said that prostitutes are fucksticks (strictly speaking, i should say that they are treated as fucksticks, but i’m overstating things because i’ve got a point to make); not all women are prostitutes, obviously. ‘fuckstick’ is not the terminology of a psychopath, it is a term used by a normal person in order to highlight the nature of the monger-wg relationship. as i have said repeatedly, i am a regular guy who has had to adjust himself so he can do something wrong and enjoy it. that might make me cold-hearted, but it cannot mean that i am psychopath.


you guys are attacking gedanken because he said he see prostitutes as fucks sticks? man you guys need to wake up and smell the fucking latex. just read these posts and you can see the level of respect the average monger has for the average wg.it is remarkable, indeed, my american friend.


we go to them for sex nothing more nothing less. i do believe there is a level of dehumanization that happens on both ends. the provider sees the consumer is as nothing more than capital and the consumer sees the provider as nothing more than a means of relief.yes, i totally agree. and i’d not thought about dehumanisation from the wg’s perspective, illogic. i guess it happens, as you suggest.


gedanken keep it up man your a (i would say godsend but i am atheist).i am an atheist, so i cannot call you a godsend either! ;d



...reference to women as "fucksticks". this is the terminology that one might expect from a psychopath.or a woman.the more of your posts i read, rubbey, the less i feel able to comment on them. you seem like such a kind, gentle person, really and truly.


rationalizations for guilt
yes, loveless fucking. but the point is that 'loveless' fucking is perfectly fine and really a very nice and enjoyable thing.yeah, i agree (see also my last post).


to continue my restaurant analogy, we might say 'oh woe is me because the lady that cooks my dinner does not love me'.i’ve dealt with this question-begging analogy elsewhere.


well actually most relationships do involve some monetary support, even today, and certainly in the old days they almost always did.this conflation of financial facts in ordinary relationships with prostitution is, in my view, facile at best.


yes, and that is all as (usually) both parties prefer and there is nothing 'bad' about that at all.see my previous aside about free choices and duress-driven choices.


the idea that women who engage in prostitution would prefer some 'loving' relationship is ridiculous. for many of them a closer to connection to any of their customers would be precisely what they don't want.i didn’t say they wanted to have a loving relationship with their clients, i said that poor-world girls don’t genuinely want any sexual contact whatsoever with the rich-world mongers they see.


i think you're falling prey to the ancient idea that men are 'more naturally promiscuous' than women or that women 'naturally want' monogamy.i disagree. i didn’t say they wanted monogamy, i said that they were making a least-bad choice under the duress of poverty. what i am saying, by implication, is that poor-world girls want a genuinely free choice about whether they have sex with the guys they do. that free choice might well be having regular sex with lots of different men.



listening to some of what’s said on this thread, anyone would think guys go to a prostitute to enjoy some stand-up comedy...what makes you say that?dickhead’s suggestion to get to know a few working girls; cocha monger’s claims to have loved every girl he’s seen.


my point is precisely that the sex is the purpose for the interaction and this is perfectly acceptable. the fact that you think that meeting someone for a sex act is inferior, degrading, or somehow harmful compared to meeting them for conversation, etc., shows that you are a puritan. sex is not 'worse than' any other activity. why should it be?again the question-begging loss of distinction between regular sex and poor-world mongering rears its head.


i have to say you seem to go to great lengths to make rationalizations for feeling guilty about having sex. there's no need, gedanken. it is quite simply not a big deal.there are not great lengths. the great lengths are made by those trying to convince themselves that poor-world mongering is, for the most part, not straightforward exploitation. it’s immorality is, to me, of only incidental concern.


what jd said. we're not ganging up - we're debating. that's what this thread is for. don't take it as an insult. if we thought you were an unworthy opponent, your posts would have been ignored. (that's certainly happened before).only teasing there, rubbey! promise! i don’t think anyone could mind you criticising their views or regard you as a bully. i take it all as valid criticism, nothing more. debate is good, helps spotlight weak points in my views or things that i might not even have thought about at all.


the 'choice' debate is too big for a forum like this...the choice question is the crux of the problem. all debate should be focused on this issue. i’ve nothing against prostitution where a free choice is made, but that’s not what we’re now discussing. poor-world mongering is the question we’re focused on, where the choice is often, though not always, made under duress of poverty. (see also my introductory aside in my last post).


i'm really tired of the poor-world vs rich-world debate.i’m sure you are! the only way you can conclude that, “a wh*re is a wh*re is a wh*re,” is if you ignore the distinction between free choices and least-bad choices made under duress.


we all do it for the same reasons and, on the whole, have largely the same experiences.[/i]come on, rubbey! you do it for different reasons, though of course all hookers receive money for selling their bodies. you do not all choose to get that money via prostitution for the same reason. to take two extreme example: one poor-world girl in a poor country where there is no welfare safety-net (no income means you starve; no state help) may have sex for money so she can feed her children; a rich-world girl earning an effective income of £400,000 a year so she can retire a millionaire by the age of thirty. two clearly different reasons, though both are receiving money by selling their bodies.

[quote=rubbey]similarly, poor-world affluence and choice also exists.i agree, i have mentioned before that poor-world girls wanting to earn a (relatively) good income before. i’m having to keep calling it ‘poor-world prostitution’ since to fully qualify what subset of prostitution i’m talking about requires a prohibitive amount of time and space.


to suggest that hookers in poor countries have even less agency and autonomy than rich-world hookers is not only patronising and insulting...it's racist.it is not racist. there are poor countries in europe, in asia, in africa, and in the americas.


go to http://www.durbar.org/index.html (india), or http://www.empowerfoundation.org/ (thailand), or http://wnu.womynsagenda.org/ (cambodia) for starters. i've personally met women from these organisations and i can tell you right now...they are not pathetic, impoverished victims.again, i’ve never claimed all poor-world wgs are impoverished or work under duress of poverty. you are going to have to forgive the not-fully-qualified term ‘poor-world prostitution’ because to fully state the subset of prostitution i regard as exploitative each time would be so unwieldy. imagine ‘poverty-driven, poor-world prostitution’ each time...


that will happen when you call sex workers "fuck sticks" in front of a self-professed wh*re. i tend to bite back. while i do respect your opinion and your right to air it, i'm sure that if i threw gross generalisations in your direction - say, that mongers are pathetic perverts who are too ugly/awkward/socially inept to secure a root in the real world - you'd get a little bit snappy, as well.no i would not get snappy, since the phrase ‘the truth hurts’ only applies when truthful statements are made.


you can think that if you want. you're not the first to doubt me and you won't be the last. by the sounds of it, my opinion would carry more weight with you if i *wasn't* an ex-hooker, so maybe it's a good thing.no, it carries more weight because of your old career. i must insist that only the foolhardy would fully accept statements about someone in an anonymous setting like this. i do think it highly likely that you are who you say you are, i’m just not going to commit 100% - to do so would be the height of thoughtlessness (see dickhead’s warning about making assumptions).


ok, let me clarify what i *really* wanted to say. you have a problem with sex.i do not have a problem with sex. see my last previous about affirming the consequent and also my criticism of dickhead’s (and opebo’s) analogy.


if i was a qualified sports masseuse, you would respect my training and skills, assume that i was working there out of 'choice' and chat away to me like a normal human being. if you rolled over and i started playing with your dick, i would suddenly become an exploited victim who can't make my own choices and needs to be 'dehumanised' in order to enjoy your time with me. so...what exactly is so bad about your dick, that simply touching it can change me from empowered employee to exploited victim? do you really think your penis holds that much power????it’s nothing to do with the act of penetration itself, as people who would take the time to understand my criticism of the dickhead-opebo analogy would see clearly.

[Gedanken]

yet more to come tomorrow.



...opebo’s analogy really was logically the same as dickhead’s: opebo’s analogy replaces the word ‘supermarket’ with ‘restaurant’, and uses the words ‘nice meal’ instead of ‘food’.so, why do you go to restaurants, gendaken? can you not...again, i’m going to have to suggest that you’ve not fully understood my criticism of dickhead’s (and opebo’s) analogy. i can try and re-explain it again or something? do just ask.


nah all of isg is not against you and again excellent fucking post. when i have some kids i really have to send them to england to get an education if a 20 something year old can debate like thispromise i was only teasing! you’re quite right, i am most certainly not alone!


like i said members should attack the post not the poster but i have been guilty of doing it myself....i am working on it though and i have apologized to members in the open and via pm if i felt i got out of line.what a nice chap you are, illogic! i’m not this polite in real life, i am frequently short-tempered. like yourself, i am working on becoming more patient with people i disagree with, as well as my myriad other personal failings - though not mongering, which is a personal failing i am keen to develop with the aid of as many hot girls as possible ;d


i don't follow how you are a victim, you made a "free choice" to fight your battle here. your views are conventional and popular television fare; there are plenty of people who eat your thinking right up, it's more interesting conversation when you post in a place like this. you are here because you enjoy the friction.i promise i was only teasing, jelly donut! you’re right: i enjoy good, honest debate, and i always run the risk of learning something from it!


”gedanken: sometimes, however, i desperately want to behave immorally in a way which would unavoidably result in feelings of guilt. mongering in poor countries is such a thing. in such circumstances, i will condition myself so that i can act immorally without feeling guilty." i would argue this is some combination of hypocrisy, self-delusion, or sociopathy.it is perfectly normal, i just do my misbehaviour in the full knowledge of its immorality. others substitute my technique for self-deception. what we do as an outcome is identical: we all monger. my thing is that i do not like self-deception; it’s very dangerous for reasons i’ve explained before. there’s enough self-deception on this thread for you to see its prevalence. some of the arguments are so weak that they are clearly meant to serve only for personal consumption, not be able to convince anyone else.


i haven't really heard anyone argue that all prostitution is morally acceptable... furthermore, i'm opposed to any form of prostitution that costs me one hundred dollars or more, ha ha.”ha ha” is right! ;d now, what i meant is that some people have the need to see all the prostitution they partake in as morally acceptable.


what makes you think such a situation ever existed?it was admittedly a plausibility argument, see the offer i made at the end of giving an alternative analogy.


not true in my experience. i've spoken with some who are being exploited by pimps or their family and are too ignorant to realize it.if i accept this as true then this can serve as the alternative, contemporary analogy i just mentioned. indeed, it’s not an analogy at all.


you're assuming my statement is merely based on isg and not on personal knowledge. i'd be careful about making assumptions!indeed, one should be careful about making assumptions, but i do have no personal experience of rubber nursey in any capacity, so i must always hedge.


and i don't, and this makes you a basic, garden-variety asshole, albeit an articulate one. so now you go on my ignore list.that’s ok dickhead, taking the first opportunity to grope for a chivalrous get-out clause is understandable. you treat them as fucksticks just the same as i do; see my previous post, in particular my response to cocha monger’s claims to have loved every prostitute he’s seen. actions, not empty words give me your measure, dickhead. i must say i’m puzzled by your decision to ignore me, since i am not aggressive or nasty to you or to anyone else on this forum, nor do i break any of the forum’s rules. that gives me pause for thought: self-deception is easier to maintain when it is not constantly pointed out – compare with the bush administration’s stovepiping (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/10/27/031027fa_fact?currentpage=all) and cherry-picking of intelligence prior to iraq - perhaps that explains your decision to ignore. well, up to you, i’m not going to try to talk you out of it, i’m not here to make people uncomfortable about the immorality of their mongering. i just don’t like self-deception and the concomitant lazy arguments.


dealing with family/friends(lying)
obviousely, not all of us want to share what we do with our family/friends. i've only told one friend. even if they found out, i'm not going to stop. i absolutely love it. but i'll do my best to keep it my little secret.i am 100% the same. i’ve told one friend about it who i knew wouldn’t mind since he’s seen escorts himself, though he’s not mongered properly abroad. i’ve had no problems keeping it a secret, since travelling abroad at every opportunity was something i did before i’d ever seen a prostitute, let alone poor-world mongering. it’s a big world out there; i want to see as much of it as possible, quite independent of my desire to monger extensively.


prostituion exists in all countries regardless of per capita income...i should not have said ‘most girls’ but merely ‘many girls’. i don’t know any study which has shown that more than 50% of poor-world girls would give up the game if gdp and job opportunities improved. self-correction aside, my claim was only that levels of prostitution would be cut in poor countries once poverty is reduced by girls no longer having to do prostitution as a least-bad option.


”g: sheakespeare did not have romeo handing over a couple of hundred euros to juliet...” you can learn something from these stories.yeah, see my last post about using r&j. yes, fiction can sometimes give insights into real human relations, and thanks for the book suggestions!



i thank only the russians for defeating the nazis!!if you are british you should be proud of it. newton. darwin. that large-breasted german woman who runs the country. as an american, i can't even express the full scope of what the sea of white stone at the st. laurent cemetery in france means to me. it makes me feel pretty lucky and humble.yeah, i promise i was overstating things in response to dickhead’s gibe about the wretched yanks always saving our arses. it was good that britain didn’t do a france and just roll over. french resistance? quoi? ou? quand? that said, the us is just a former colony, nothing more. in seriousness, i agree: there were not insignificant sacrifices made by us and british soldiers, but the russians took the brunt of the nazi onslaught, and it was they who inflicted 80% of german battlefield casualties.


when will these fucks learn? ... don't shit where you live for chrissakes.agreed, my automated response tells me that such behaviour really does take the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140).


gedanken with all due respect, i agree, i think you fundamentally have a problem with women and sexuality and if you could get over the fact that women can enjoy sex and enjoy variety in sex the same way men can, you'd not have such a huge problem with your own lifestyle.like opebo, i’m afraid i’m going to have to accuse you of affirming the consequent - see my last post.


i personally don't need any justification for how i operate.nor i, but if there is no justification i sometimes want to overcome that problem.


what i dont do is lie to girls just to get in their pants. to me, that is immoral.i will lie to the hot non-pro girls i see when i go mongering in africa and asia. i agree it is immoral, and there is an automated response from my brain and body which tells me to respect you for not lying to them, but i don’t care about lying to them.


if you take me out and spend $100 on dinner and a movie, then have sex with me, that's regular sex. if you pay me $100, then have sex with me, that's prostitution. but what if, after the prostitution sex, we go out for dinner and a movie and i pay my own way using your $100?that was prostitution followed by someone displaying their capacity for generosity.


or if we fuck in the pub toilet, because you've promised to pay for $50 worth of drinks afterwards? is that prostitution, or retrospective seduction?prostitution. the inexplicit exchange of money doesn’t change the fact.


and for that matter, if you're my husband and you treat me like a sex toy every night, even when i tell you i don't want to have sex, is that [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or regular sex?[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).


what if every morning, after taking me forcibly the night before, you flick me a few dollars and tell me to go buy myself something nice? is that [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), or regular sex, or prostitution?[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).


my personal 'moral code' doesn't get bogged down in these issues. if my actions hurt someone else, it's immoral. if they don't hurt anyone else, it's fine.with a few qualifications, i agree.

[Chocha Monger]

Dickhead’s suggestion to get to know a few working girls; Cocha Monger’s claims to have loved every girl he’s seen.
Hah, Gendanken, how arrogant you are to suggest that my version of love is somehow inferior to that of yours. So what? I find relationships to be messy and full of extraneous nonsense that I’d rather not experience. You find it amusing that I like my love and sex neatly arranged in a bento box. Would you find me less of a joke if I lied to and seduced really hot girls just so I could fuck them over a period of months or years? What if they loved me so much that they cried and became deeply emotionally disturbed when I decided to leave them because I grew bored and tired of them?

Casanova was known to be very generous to the women he seduced and always left them some gift for them to remember him by. Many of the women he seduced remained in love with him years after he left them. Casanova wasn’t mongering, in fact he detested women that blatantly demanded payment in return for their favors. He considered love to be a game. Gifts were part of the game but were never to be mentioned. Would you find it more acceptable if I were to root women using this method? Of course, breaking a few hearts here and there along the way is inevitable but it certainly can’t be considered loveless fucking.

[Opebo]

But why the distinction between prostitution and non-sexual paid employment, Gedanken? If you must work, you're exploited in the capitalist political system, whether you're giving BJs or teaching classes.

[Azmodeus Fl]

Prostitution would not exist if women would take care of business at home. Instead of considering her spouses needs they want to control every aspect of their mans lives. Over the last 20 plus years of a 32 year marriage I have heard every excuse possible. "The kids will hear us and want to have sex." "I'm tired" (She sleeps 12 to 16 hours every day) The neighbors can see us through the window." (The headboard of our bed covers 3/4 of the window.) and the latest one is "I have a problem down there." (But she will not go see a doctor because he might find something. She would rather die from something that could have been cured.) The bottom line is that it is all nothing but excuses.

[Opebo]

Not to mention, Azmodeus, who would want to have sex with the same person, and only the same person, for 32 years? The very idea is frightful!

Leaving aside the unbelievable boredom, that would imply she's 50 years old or more! Again, who would?

[Gedanken]

Hah, Gendanken, how arrogant you are to suggest that my version of love is somehow inferior to that of yours. So what? I find relationships to be messy and full of extraneous nonsense that I’d rather not experience. You find it amusing that I like my love and sex neatly arranged in a bento box. What if they loved me so much that they cried and became deeply emotionally disturbed when I decided to leave them because I grew bored and tired of them?Dear Cocha Monger,

I never said you were a joke, I simply said that your use of the word love was purposefully inaccurate. I understand completely your desire to knob hot girls without the tiresome bullshit and heartache that is inherent within a regular relationship. I don't claim to be able to love a girl better than any other guy, I'm just suggesting that neither you nor I love the girls we see. We lust after them, get what we want out of them, and move on. That's all I'm saying.


Would you find me less of a joke if I lied to and seduced really hot girls just so I could fuck them over a period of months or years?Over the course of months and years is pretty harsh, I don't think I'd be able to go through with that. But dropping the "I'm looking for a wife" hook to catch them and get them into the sack once or twice is something I can most certainly live with.


Casanova was known to be very generous to the women he seduced and always left them some gift for them to remember him by. Many of the women he seduced remained in love with him years after he left them. Casanova wasn’t mongering, in fact he detested women that blatantly demanded payment in return for their favors. He considered love to be a game. Gifts were part of the game but were never to be mentioned. Would you find it more acceptable if I were to root women using this method? Of course, breaking a few hearts here and there along the way is inevitable but it certainly can’t be considered loveless fucking.To be honest, I think I've misunderstood your whole post, because I just don't understand what you're getting at. Re-explain for me?

My only claims are that you don't love the girls and that your use of the word love was purposeful. Nothing more. I don't claim to be anything special, as I've repeatedly said ("I'm no philosopher", "I'm no thinker").

[Gedanken]

But why the distinction between prostitution and non-sexual paid employment, Gedanken? If you must work, you're exploited in the capitalist political system, whether you're giving BJs or teaching classes.In one sense there is no distinction, in other senses there are. This is beside the point, though, when it comes to the analogy, since its purpose was to claim that poor-world mongering was exploitative just like waged labour is, but that there was nothing wrong with poor-world mongering in the same way that there is nothing wrong with satisfying natural desires via means acquired with cash.

[Gedanken]

Not to mention, Azmodeus, who would want to have sex with the same person, and only the same person, for 32 years? The very idea is frightful!You can only speak of your personal viewpoint. Others would disagree.


Leaving aside the unbelievable boredom, that would imply she's 50 years old or more! Again, who would?Same again.

[Gedanken]

Prostitution would not exist if women would take care of business at home. Instead of considering her spouses needs they want to control every aspect of their mans lives. Over the last 20 plus years of a 32 year marriage I have heard every excuse possible. "The kids will hear us and want to have sex." "I'm tired" (She sleeps 12 to 16 hours every day) The neighbors can see us through the window." (The headboard of our bed covers 3/4 of the window.) and the latest one is "I have a problem down there." (But she will not go see a doctor because he might find something. She would rather die from something that could have been cured.) The bottom line is that it is all nothing but excuses.Straightforward, misogynistic generalisation and exaggeration.

[Gedanken]

Hah, Gendanken, how arrogant you are to suggest that my version of love is somehow inferior to that of yours.I don't regard myself as particularly arrogant, I mean I am able to accept criticism (even when it is conveyed in a sarcastic manner), explicitly state my agreement with it and own up to mistakes, viz. your own successful criticism of me a few posts back. That said, self-criticism is hard to do, so perhaps I'm not in the best position to judge. If you sufficiently dislike my posts or posting style for whatever reason, there are two courses of action: first, if you want to read my posts but don't want me to comment on yours, do just ask and I will no longer comment on your posts on this thread; second, do what Dickhead has said he's done and exercise your right to add me to your ignore list.

[Rubber Nursey]

that will happen when you call sex workers "fuck sticks" in front of a self-professed wh*re.
...the phrase ‘the truth hurts’ only applies when truthful statements are made.
i can assure you, i'm not hurt. "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" ~ eleanor roosevelt.

i'm just surprised that someone who immediately jumped on me for making racist generalisations (in jest), would be so rude as to use that terminology in front of someone who has self-identified as a former hooker. you cannot justify the use of words like 'fuckstick' to describe sex workers or any other women, in this or any other forum. end of story.


yes, the dirty little secret is that the life of a prostitute is often quite fun and appealing, and can even be sexually enjoyable.
i didn't say that. opebo did. but he's right.


prostitution legislation is in many cases not to do with controlling the vagina, but controlling the dick.
until very recently, women did not have the power to make laws. men, and men alone, were responsible for their creation. prostitution legislation has traditionally been created by men, for men.
a) women are not allowed to profit from sex, but we can give it away for free. hookers upset the traditional male-female power balance. charging for sex violates a man's god-given 'right' to sexual gratification.
b) regulation/control of prostitution protects men's sexual health. for centuries, sex workers have been forcibly tested, treated and detained, while clients go free to infect the next woman.
c) criminalisation ensures complete confidentiality (for fear of prosecution) and provides a pool of women who can be raped, beaten and blackmailed with impunity.

the only law i can think of that aims to control the dick, is the comparatively new 'swedish model' of criminalising clients ...created by rad fems, for rad fems. and they don't just want to control your penis. they want to cut it off with a blunt knife. when it comes to fighting against the influence of these loonies on prostitution legislation, hookers and clients are on the same side.


the temptation to make a certain remark steps forward, but you’re such a nice girl, nursey, that i easily push the temptation back down. ...you seem like such a kind, gentle person, really and truly. ...i think i love you rubber nursey
either ignore me completely, or debate me as an equal. don't blow smoke up my arse.

[Rubber Nursey]

...poor-world girls don’t genuinely want any sexual contact whatsoever with the rich-world mongers they see... they were making a least-bad choice under the duress of poverty. ...The choice question is the crux of the problem. I’ve nothing against prostitution where a free choice is made, but that’s not what we’re now discussing. Poor-world mongering is the question we’re focused on, where the choice is often, though not always, made under duress of poverty....The only way you can conclude that, “A wh*re is a wh*re is a wh*re,” is if you ignore the distinction between free choices and least-bad choices made under duress.


You do not all choose to get that money via prostitution for the same reason.
Yes, we do. Every country has differing levels of criminality, toleration, shame and stigma heaped on sex work, but NOWHERE in the world is it promoted as a respectable and healthy occupation. NOWHERE.

The overwhelming majority of sex workers enter the industry out of financial desperation. Yes, the perceived level of desperation varies. Maybe she's desperate to feed her childen, maybe she needs to feed her drug habit, or maybe she just needs to pay off her new BMW...it is still, almost always, a last resort decision. Society has TOLD us that it's a last resort decision. Society has told us that you simply don't do it unless you feel you have no other option. I've said before that *I* chose sex work because I felt it was the best of a bad bunch of options available to me at the time.

But that DOES NOT mean that the choice was not mine to make. There are ALWAYS other choices. Sex work allowed me to keep my nice house and nice car and still pick my kids up from school. I *could* have survived some other way, but it would have meant making a whole lot of compromises that I wasn't willing to make. There are BILLIONS of poor people in poor countries who are managing to survive without turning to prostitution. They're working in factories, cleaning hotels, driving taxis, babysitting, planting rice, scavenging from rubbish tips. They CHOSE not to sell sex for a living, just like the sex workers CHOSE to take a different path. Do all of them want to be having sex for money? Of course not. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS NOT THEIR CHOICE.

[Bango Cheito]

I´m still waiting for serious input, something beyond "LOL", on the subject of just WHO in this world really has their shit together. I just don't see it. I see a world full of fucked up people, in AND out of the sex industry. I see mostly miserable people who are not getting what they want out of life. I see a lot of stupidity, laziness, and confusion. And out of the very few people who are able to get their heads out of the muck to breathe and see clearly even if only for a few minutes, I count the vast majority of that tiny minority among people on the FRINGES of society, NOT the people living so-called "normal" lives.

I also don't think it should come as a shock to anybody when somebody says modern civilization detrimentally over-controls human sexuality, and especially FEMALE sexuality. I wouldn't think anybody who was not a total religious fanatic would have any problem seeing that.

For that matter, just what is LOVE and who is it that gets to experience TRUE love. What is the definition we are working with??

I'd sumbit that you are no more likely to encounter the kind of love the poets and writers have written about over the ages in any kind of a monogamous relationship than you are in any other kind of relationship.

[Warbucks]

I´m still waiting for serious input, something beyond "LOL", on the subject of just WHO in this world really has their shit together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrd3lSn5FqQ

Bango I am saying LOL because I am I find it hilarious that you would say that because a person decides to sale sex they are somehow more enlightened, more in tune with their “soul” ( mind and body) than the rest of us.

This is off the wall.

[Gentleman Travel]

Yes, we do. Every country has differing levels of criminality, toleration, shame and stigma heaped on sex work, but NOWHERE in the world is it promoted as a respectable and healthy occupation. NOWHERE.
One possible exception was in Japan where high-class prostitutes used to flourish in a well accepted niche in society. These were not technically "geisha girls" (who are more like flirting entertainers) but that term has come (in the west) to include various classes or erotic entertainers or prostitutes, who seem to have been respected and valued.

[Bango Cheito]

First off, that's not quite what I said. I said they have a better CHANCE of being enlightened. There's a big difference.

Do you really think living a "normal" middle class lifestyle with a spouse and 2.3 kids and a little house 2 hours away from everything and bills up to your eyeballs is a CONSTRUCTIVE way to live out one's life? I'd take selling sex, and engaging in sex and LOVE with WHOM I want WHERE and WHEN I want any day over that.

I think that in general, having as much freedom as possible and engaging in enough creative acts (sex DEFINITELY included) as much as possible with as many different people as possible and with as wide a variety of circumstances and practises as possible, DOES lead to being more in touch with your soul. If you have any alternate theories, I'd love to hear them.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrd3lSn5FqQ

Bango I am saying LOL because I am I find it hilarious that you would say that because a person decides to sale sex they are somehow more enlightened, more in tune with their “soul” ( mind and body) than the rest of us.

This is off the wall.

[Bango Cheito]

As for the geishas, they were emphatically NOT prostitutes. They were highly paid companions who provided intellectual and emotional stimulation to those who could afford it. They often had sex with their clients, but it wasn't part of the cash deal. They were free to have sex with whom they wanted when they wanted, which is a difficult concept for post-christian minds to get around at times.

[Opebo]

Bango I am saying LOL because I am I find it hilarious that you would say that because a person decides to sale sex they are somehow more enlightened, more in tune with their “soul” ( mind and body) than the rest of us.

This is off the wall.

I agree with Bango Cheito here. Obviously prostitutes are more likely to have a 'realistic', 'open minded', or 'self aware' world view than those who have embraced knee-jerk conformity.

[Meat Loaf]

Illogic,
I'd say that you are doing pretty good for yourself. It hasn't always been good for me. When I joined the Army it seemed that I was only attracting poor rural American women dreaming of getting on Tricare and living in government housing on base. Officers may be able to attract better looking women but these women are looking to hang out at home baking cookies for the unit in return for half of your pension upon retirement. That is not something I was looking forward to. When I traded my uniform for a suit and a tie women with a life started being interested in me again. I kind of resented the fact that serving my country seemed to put me into some kind of lower social status. I was college educated but when people saw that uniform they made certain assumptions.

Ironically, I know American women with doctorates, good incomes, houses and fat retirement accounts. These are the women I hand the keys to my vehicle and place when I travel. I tell them that I'm off to root some chicks in another country and they scold me for being nasty. They can often be more reliable than men in taking care of my stuff. I try to keep my dick out of these women because I don't want to ruin a good thing. If I start rooting them it introduces the normal female emotions that come with that sort of thing. Emotions like jealousy, revenge, possessiveness, spite and anger. Plain and simple these women want undying love and devotion. I can't or wouldn't give it to them, so they settle for my friendship.

In early adulthood I dealt with a female vampire. You know, the kind of woman that drains you sexually and emotionally, extremely jealous and controlling. I swore off commitment after that. Who needs a woman checking their bank account, checking their whereabouts and making silly accusations? So while I don't need to monger I find it better than getting into a relationship. Otherwise normal and agreeable women undergo metamorphosis into monsters once they identify a male as "my boyfriend" or "my husband."

The best relationships I've had with American women were with workaholic Asian chicks, or chicks who already had a man at home. This meant that they had other things to think about other than making me miserable. Living apart also gives me my privacy, though I have nothing to hide. A man needs a sanctuary where he can rest and think away from others.

I have always thought that American women make great friends. They'd probably make great wives if it wasn't for a system than makes it so easy and tempting to take advantage of men in a marriage. If you take honest people and give them incentives to steal without any negative consequences you can hardly blame them for doing so. It's not really the women, it's the system, the society and the media. That is why even the most innocent foreign woman changes in short order after residing in the US. I know of Asian guys who almost get a stroke when their formerly demure little wives start cussing out their mother-in-law.

Just because someone can say or do something doesn't mean that they should. In America we've become so individualistic and materialistic that traditional pair bonds that require compromise like marriage are no longer viable.

Great insights!

[Meat Loaf]

That is pretty much the concept in the US. Sex and beautiful women are the sole domain of the rich and powerful. Stay on the treadmill and compete, maybe one day you'll be lucky enough to make enough money to get laid by a beautiful woman too. And don't you dare think of cheating the system by going abroad and getting the same thing in the Third World for less because you're a loser. You don't deserve those women and you shouldn't get any pussy.

When people go abroad instead of working harder in the hopes of getting some pretty tale they are cheating the government out of taxes and the corporations out of labor. Instead of struggling to get into the boardroom to earn a bigger salary mongers might decide to take up low pressure employment with plenty of down time to visit flesh markets in the developing world. There you see. I said it! Third World mongering is bad. It's terrible for the G8 too because their citizens may become less motivated to take up a trophy wife and breed some kids to provide labor and consumption.

First there was IMBRA, then passports/travel cards became mandatory for international travel and Swiss banks now share information with the IRS on US citizens. What will the New World Order bring next?

More truth written by Chocha Monger!

[Meat Loaf]

Married women and girlfriends dislike prostitutes because they provide men with an option to break any sex strike that a wife or girlfriend may try to impose on her partner. If a man can take $30-$50 and head to the nearest brothel it significantly reduces his female partner's ability to twist his dick by using sex. Prostitution also breaks the social hierarchy that restricts access to beautiful women. Where prostitution is widespread and legal any man can have sex with a hot woman. He doesn't need to be rich or handsome. All he needs is enough money in his pocket to pay for a session. This reduces the power of beautiful women to get whatever they want based solely on looks. They can't twist dicks as much because what they have is easily obtainable.

Instead of men signing up for an expensive long term contract with huge financial penalties for termination they can now get the same service on a pay-per-use basis without the contract and maintenance fees.

That's 100% correct!

[Rubber Nursey]

One possible exception was in Japan where high-class prostitutes used to flourish in a well accepted niche in society.
I posted about this a week or so ago ...certain classes of sex workers and/or paid companions enjoyed respect and status in many pre-Christian cultures. Geisha still hold a degree of respect and status in Japanese culture, but I would venture that it's because they don't have sex. It's the sex bit that attracts the stigma. 'Ordinary' sex workers in Japan are treated with as much contempt by regular society as sex workers in other countries.

My point (to Gedanken) was that hookers are born and raised with the same pre-concieved ideas about sex work as everyone else. We all grow up seeing the same negative portrayals on television and in newspapers. We're all told that hookers are dirty and desperate and diseased. When I first picked up the phone to call a brothel about starting work, I honestly had images of pimps and drugs and beatings and dark hotel rooms with flea-ridden mattresses, running through my head. Nobody in their right mind would make that decision lightly. Unless you fell into sex work by accident (graduating from sugar daddies, for example), or you already knew someone in the industry (who gave you a more positive 'insider' perspective), there is almost ALWAYS some degree of coercion - be it financial, cultural, psychological or physical.

The thing is, although a person's motivation for starting - known in academic circles as their "pathway to prostitution" - might be considered coercive, it doesn't automatically follow that their experience of the sex industry will be negative. People tend to assume that being 'forced' to start = being 'forced' to continue, but that is not the case for many, many sex workers. Often, we get into it and discover it isn't at all like we thought it would be, or even that we really enjoy it (or at least, that the benefits significantly outweigh the negatives).

As always, I will add the disclaimer that many sex workers DO find themselves in situations they hate (like lots of other people who take jobs they didn't really want to do in the first place) and/or are forced into it by trickery, threats, or violence (which is NOT sex work - it's a crime and should always be treated as such). I'm not saying that degradation and exploitation does not occur in the sex industry. I'm just saying that it's not a foregone conclusion. Just because you got into it under duress, doesn't automatically mean you're STAYING in it under duress. And just because it was the best option you had at the time, it doesn't mean it was your ONLY option.

[Excess]

And just because it was the best option you had at the time, it doesn't mean it was your ONLY option.

Might I add that as in all aspects of life, the best option that one had at any particular time often does not remain the best option following. Fortunately, most of us are able to sort out our evolving options, often a little late though, since inertia is a common trait in most of us.

As a note, historically many top class Geisha were sexually involved with a specific "sponsor" usually exclusively at one time. They entertained many but had a special and very lucrative, often long running relationship with their main sponsor leading often to establishing their own stable of younger Geisha and a House. Not totally unfamiliar in today's world. Prostitutes ? That is for each person to decide, if important to them.

[Chocha Monger]

The whole idea that rooting in the developing world is somehow immoral is laughable. Check the labels on your clothing. Go through your house or apartment and examine each item taking note of where it was made. You’ll find that most of it was made in the developing world. Yet, I hear no one protesting that their brand name sneakers were made in a Southeast Asian sweatshop. Why the distinction of morality only when it comes to sex.

Some mongers feel guilty because they think that they’re getting a root for a steal. In fact, if they were to look closer they’d see that they are paying several times what a local pays for a root with the same woman. Some places go ever further and refuse to let foreign mongers patronize their rooting establishments. The idea that these women in the oldest profession in the developing world have no choice other than to wait for some foreign man to root her for a few bucks is ridiculous. If it were true the entire developing world would be a monger’s fantasy. In reality a very well known group of countries are identified as sex tourism destinations. The majority of developing nations do not lay out the welcome mat for sex tourists and prostitution continues to be illegal in those countries.

The cries that mongering in the third world is immoral stands as a testament to the sex repression common in Western countries due to religious beliefs and wide propagation of radical feminist ideology. There are so many other issues with immense negative impacts other than a sex tourist overpaying a prostitute in the developing world that merits attention. Sadly, these causes are not so sexy or inflammatory as the issue of an old overweight ugly smelly white sex tourist fucking an impoverished brown girl for less money than he’d pay in his home country.

Let us explore some of these activities that are done on a daily basis without a thought as to their negative effects:

• USA and European countries have moved their manufacturing operations overseas where they can use cheap labor, avoid labor laws, and pollute the air, water and soil of host nations. Locals can now look forward to lung disease, various forms of cancer and birth defects.
• Ate a banana this morning? Chances are your money went to United Fruit, a company involved in the 1954 coup in Guatemala that overthrew a popularly elected government resulting in the supply of cheap and plentiful bananas in US supermarkets. United Fruit hasn’t changed its ways. It convinced the Clinton Administration to file a claim to the WTO against European preferences for small Caribbean banana farmers.
• The conditions of female labor in offshore garment production have been condemned as highly exploitative. In Bangladesh, which by the end of 2001 had become the fourth largest apparel exporting country to the US, wages are as low as 7 to 8 cents/h for some tasks, with a high of only about 17–18 cents/h (National Labor Committee, 2001). Chinese wages are somewhat higher, but still very low. Wal-Mart, which controls 15% of the US market and is the world’s largest
clothing retailer, pays workers in Chinese factories as little as 13 cents/h, with the norm below 25 cents. High-priced designers also exploit cheap labor-rates for Ralph Lauren and Ellen Tracy are 14 to 20 cents, Liz Claiborne 28 cents (National Labor Committee, 1998). By 2002, in all but three apparel categories (men’s suits, dresses, and women’s swimwear), imports accounted for more than 80% of domestic consumption, and in 10 of the 16 remaining categories, the share of imports exceeded 90% (U.S. Census Bureau, Current Industrial Reports, 2003)
• Like gold and silver jewelry? Mining for the precious metals that are used in jewelry and watches is extremely destructive to ecosystems. In addition, mining activities employ highly toxic chemicals.
• Did you grab yourself a burger? The Southern forests of North America of being destroyed to provide packaging for KFC, Taco Bell, Wendy’s, Pizza Hut and McDonalds. The waste ends up littering the environment and clogging up landfills.
• That plane ride you took damaged the environment and consumed valuable resources. Flight is one of the most fuel intensive forms of transportation and a major source of air emissions.

Yet, all of these things are ignored and some people choose instead to focus on the imagined harm paying a poor woman for sex in a foreign country can cause. Absolutely amazing!

[Hillysex]

I'm sure this has been articulated many times before, but to me (being a simple guy) if you don't like it don't do it. I appreciate that it is more complicated when you take into account trafficking, drugs etc but I have my own moral code which I live by and I can look myself in the mirror and I'm happy with that.

[Sound7]

Today David Letterman confirmed the medical condition requiring constant sex and demanding sex from his female staffers.

Now to avoid sexual harassment cases under the laws of great State of New York he claims the employee was seeking $2 million dollars as blackmail. This may be the case who really knows.

Very interesting defense by Mr. Letterman.

A story in creation.

Sex is not an easy subject to discuss even in this forum due to diversified views and the medical understanding of a penis. Claiming a moral understanding is just showmanship as it shows in Mr. Letterman's matter in his past television broadcasts.

Better to stick it where the good women are in this world.
World wide sex workers need to track so members can visit them at their own risk.

I request you support in creating World Sex Worker Index.


I'm sure this has been articulated many ...

[Tp Horn]

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/living/why-i-slept-with-1300-women

Check out the comments, too.

[Gentleman Travel]

Very funny article - it reiterates some of the truisms articulated here.
I am not sure how serious the author is, maybe it is all tongue-in-cheek, but on the surface many folks here will agree and enjoy it.

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/living/why-i-slept-with-1300-women

[Goga Fung]

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/living/why-i-slept-with-1300-women

Check out the comments, too.Great article, makes some good points such as:

"Why does a sleazy bastard like me like *****s so much? Why pay for it? The problem is that the modern woman is a prostitute who doesn’t deliver the goods."

Except a few, the comments are mostly fucked up, especially by some ex-hore who worked as an escort in USA for 2 years.

[Oh Ya Papi]

I was gettin my hair cut and we were talkin international, Colombia, Peru, and then on to Costa Rica where her father has now retired, she then told me" theres alot of prostitution ther, thats not good."

What! I didn't respond

Man if you want to have a philosophical convo its about hoes.

They all have strong opinions but don't know or have experienced shit!

Gene simmons, that has slept with over 10, 000 chicks, sez that they are most honest and real, its a transaction agreed and followed thru. As we all know.

Stupid religieon, and culture contorts their view. And.

Well consenting adults having sex is good, not bad or sin (don't believe)

Anyways please view this the best video about the subject and post your response, esp. Meatloaf! Jajajaja mi amigo!

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/127511/detail/

Its penn and tellers bullshit video of prostitution.

Hellya!

[Bango Cheito]

Most people have no clue and operate on assumptions...

They assume that prostitutes have a higher rate of STDs than the general population, not true in most countries anymore....

They assume that sex with a prostitute is the lowest form of sex and sex with some shut in housewife is the highest.... based on what, nobody knows....

etc etc etc.

[Warbucks]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/ReadersSubmissions2009/reader5450.htm


Today the birds are singing very brightly as they jump from branch to branch on the trees in the courtyard. This is my favorite time of the day; mid-morning with the sun low and the temperature still moderate, even though we are in the middle of a huge desert. As I watch the small yet wonderful spectacle, I forget about who I am and where I live and just enjoy being alive. For what seems like a very long time, I linger here in the courtyard oblivious to all the other activities around me. That is, until my friend in the yellow smock returns to wheel me into the cafeteria where I will eat my lunch with all my other friends. Their names escape me for now but I remember their faces and all the stories they tell me again and again every time I meet them. Afterwards, I will return to my room for a nap, dinner afterwards, and then watch television while sitting in the one chair in my room. At some point, I fall asleep there but strangely, I always wake up in my bed with my friend in the yellow smock saying good morning to me. She helps me bath and then brings me a small breakfast. After that, my daily routine starts again. Sometimes, people with friendly faces come to visit me. They look familiar but I can’t remember their names. They only stay a short while and then I am not sure where I am in my routine. I ask my friend in the yellow smock for help and she tells who just visited, but I never remember. It doesn’t matter; soon I will eat and soon after that I will fall asleep and dream of strange lands and strange people. I wish I could remember these dreams when I wake up.

I should say now that there are some things I do remember. I remember that I am now quite old and living in some sort of home. I am not sure how I got here. I believe I have a son who helped me move in here but the details are not clear. I believe I was living in Thailand in a place called Pattaya, or was that a story I read? No, that was real; I lived in a condo near the beach and I used to go to this restaurant for lunch where I knew the owner. He was an American like me and we used to exchange news of our old homeland. And some nights, there was this bar I used to go to with the prettiest girls. I would ask them to come home with me and they would take their tops off and give me a hand job. They were really nice girls so I always gave them a good tip. Some days I would walk along the beach talking to the vendors. Every few months I would see young men in the town with very short haircuts. They were mostly servicemen from America so I would buy them beers and tell them the best places to go. Outside of these encounters, I had few friends so I read a lot of books and tried to stay out of trouble. It was a good life until one day I blacked out in the kitchen and woke up on the floor. For some reason, I couldn’t move or call out. I lay there for what seemed an eternity until my neighbor walked in and got me to the hospital. It was all very confusing there. Then one day I awoke in the hospital and talked to a nice young man about going back to America. So, here I am now.

What is funny about my life now is that I cannot remember recent events but things that happened long ago are crystal clear in my mind. For example, I remember the day I told my parents I wanted to be called by my middle name when I was five years old. I remember all of grade school through high school, all the teachers and classmates, especially the girls. I even clearly remember my first fuck; she was older than I and very horny. The same with college, marriage, children, and then the divorce; it is as clear in my mind as if it happened yesterday. Not today’s yesterday but the yesterdays when I was younger. But the clearest images I have are of all the wonderful girls I was with years ago when I used to travel the world on business and take my pleasures when I could get them. Not all the girls are clear, mind you, but the ones who seemed to genuinely enjoy being with me. These women are always a short thought away from my consciousness and appear to me in my dreams early in the mornings before I awake and discover myself in this old and decrepit body. How I long for their smiles, the touch of their flesh, and sweet cooing after we had made love. Afterwards, they would entwine themselves around my body for an embrace that made me feel totally human and alive with the world. If I could find a way to make that happen today, I would pay whatever amount of money I could afford; even if it were only for one night. What slow torture it is to die alone.

Some nights, when my mind drifts back to those days; I wonder “what if”. What if I had decided to forego my worldwide position and I had settled down with one of the nicer girls I had met on my travels? After the divorce, I had decided that all I wanted was to make money and enjoy sexual pleasure without any commitments. When I was healthy, that decision seemed like the right one. Now that I am older, I depend much more on the good graces of strangers. But what if they weren’t strangers? What if one of them was now my loving wife and I’m now surrounded by doting family members, willing to make my last years worth living?

But who could have made that happen? Was it the girl in Beijing? Would I now be surrounded with loud Chinese grandchildren and squabbling nieces in some small Chinese city? Or maybe Ana from Mumbai, who came from a good family? Or even the street walker from Capetown? All she wanted was to get off the streets and enjoy life. Could I now be dying in a small township outside of Capetown near the beautiful waters of the Indian Ocean? But as my mind wanders through the passageways of my memory and I see all their lovely faces, I most clearly remember Da from Bangkok. Her heart was the truest of them all yet I discarded her just like all the others before her.

Now seeing her clearly, I re-imagine how my life would be different after that first night we met. I would have expressed my love to her and given her enough money to wait for me for a couple of months. Back in America, I would have convinced our Asia-Pacific managing director to hire me locally in Bangkok to service our SEA customers. After another month of packing and good-byes, I would be living in Bangkok, probably Sanam Pao, where seeing farang men with decent Thai women is not that unusual. I would send Da to school for business or hairdressing and I would help what was left of her family as well. We would start a family and as the years passed and our child was ready for university, I would retire to small town outside of Surat Thani near where Da grew up. I would insist we live near the water but close to the city so Da could continue working if she wanted to. I would tend to the trees on our property and sell fruit to local vendors. In the evenings I would drink my beer while listening to Da tell me of her day and all the local gossip. At night, we would sleep entwined just as we had that first night together. When I became sick, she would hire local friends to care for me and make sure I was never unattended. Instead, as the dream fades, I realize I am here alone with strangers for friends.

Why did I choose to spend the last third of my life the way I did? After I met Da, I continued working at my stressful worldwide job, which guaranteed I had few friends at home and more adventures with working girls. But my life became stale; the work was routine and the girls’ faces started to blur almost as soon as they left my hotel room. When I finally thought I had enough savings, I retired to Pattaya. I met a few friends in the ex-pat community but they weren’t really friends, just drinking buddies. A few of the girls I took home seemed very nice and I was tempted to ask one of them to move in with me, but I was now comfortable living alone and it would have been awkward at best. Anyway, I was now too old to change my ways so I settled into a routine of housework, reading, emails, drinking, and girls. With each year I enjoyed it less but I had convinced myself this was the better way to live; not confined by family and with freedom I never really exercised. It wasn’t until my fall that I realized people, even loners like me, are not designed to live alone. In my time of need there was no one there. I had been a fool but now time had run out.

Oh well, you cannot change time so I will be content with visiting my bird friends every day, and watching that game show I always like so much. What’s the name of it? Where is my nurse? When’s dinner?

The thought has crossed my mind.

[Dickhead]

Neither Gene Simmons, Wilt Chamberlain, nor anyone else has slept with 10,000 women. Just do the math. It's not credible. Just to have sex 10,000 times is possible but indicates once every day for 27.38 years (and yes, I factored in leap years!). So 10,000 [b[different[/b] women is possible in theory but doubtful for even a rock star or a basketball player. Simmons' actual claim was 1,000 which is certainly possible and even likely. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Simmons

"In a February 4, 2002 interview on the NPR radio show Fresh Air with Terry Gross, Simmons said to Gross regarding his claim to have bedded more than a thousand women: 'If you want to welcome me with open arms, I'm afraid you're also going to have to welcome me with open legs' "

Chamberlain, who used to date my ex-sister-in-law (I fucked her too but not while I was married to or dating her sister), who said his dick was as big as my forearm, actually claimed 20,000 and Wikipedia, which is not always reliable, notes:

"Chamberlain wrote his second autobiography, A View from Above. There, the lifelong bachelor claimed he had sex with 20,000 women. For this to be true, he would have had to had sex with 1.14 women per day from the age of 15 up until the day of his death, a rate of almost eight women a week. (One wag asked if that number was "regular season only, or does that include the playoffs?")"

So don't believe everything you read and hear, and consider the reasonableness of these type of statements. I fucked 102 different women in a one-year period and believe me, you can't keep that up for your whole life.

I'd say the world record can't be over 5,000. I might get to 1,000 but I don't know. I'm close to 600 now; I haven't kept exact records but I have kept track enough over time to say it's between 550 and 600. Chamberlain died pretty young and was acknowledged to have been socially awkward in his youth so it was just another of his many boasts.

Note that Wilt never married and thus never had to "pull caballo."

[Chocha Monger]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/ReadersSubmissions2009/reader5450.htm



The thought has crossed my mind.
That was a lovely propaganda piece. It almost brought tears to my eyes. Unfortunately, it wasn't written by some ancient monger with Alzheimer's disease. All the same, it still a lovely anti-mongering piece.

Waxing nostalgic is always fascinating. There have been one or two women from my past who I didn't stay with simply because of relocation for work or academic reasons. After a particularly bad relationship I kept agonizing and plugging one or the other of these ideal girls into my formula trying to imagine what the outcome might have been. Each day I awoke and cursed the hand that guided me down the left fork of the road instead of the right. This went on for some years until someone made me to understand that there was no way that I could ever know for sure that my life would have been any different had I done things differently. He pointed out his dead wife, divorced wife and current wife. He talked about the ungrateful sons he bailed out of trouble and who never came to visit him. He told me about his granddaughter who no longer speaks to him because he refused to cosign on a car loan for her worthless unemployed boyfriend. He said that married life was crap even when it's relatively good because you have to live according to another person's conditions. He said that his wives all went nuts after hitting their mid-forties and that there was always less sex than he wanted in marriages.

He told me to stop beating myself up because it was possible that all of the women I wished that I had chosen had actually grown into nagging ball breakers. The myth of the happy golden years surrounded by caring children and loving grandchildren seldom becomes a reality. You're more likely to be surrounded by greedy children and grandchildren too busy with their own lives to give a shit about grandpa. Of course, they'll come around as grandpa lays dying because vultures always do.

[Dickhead]

The quote in the latest Daddy Warbucks post is interesting but I smell a rat because the person claims to be American but no American is going to send his kids to "university." They send them to college. Also I think the vast majority would say "back in the United States" and not "back in America."

So, it's bullshit. Me, I will die alone but that would be true whether I'd chosen this mongering lifestyle or not. That could have been a factor in choosing it, though.

Anyway I passed some important milestones recently that have to do with the Morality of Prostitution. On 30 September I completed five years of fucking the same hooker, approximately twice a month on average. I think that's good and shows a degree of fidelity, stability, whatever. She turns 35 tomorrow so happy birthday to Roxana. During this time I saw her leave the night life, obtain a vocational license, open her own business, and have her first real boyfriend and live-in relationship. I enjoyed watching her change and grow. I will fuck her on Wednesday. She's still a prostitute since she takes money from me, but she's in a healthier, happier environment and we've learned a lot from each other.

All these assholes who have preconceived notions about prostitutes should meet her. Doesn't smoke, drink, or use drugs; no tattoos, piercings, or surgical enhancements. Has no kids, never been arrested. Didn't come from a broken home although her mom died when she was a teenager. Graduated from high school. So stereotypes are not always accurate and can be dangerous.

[Bango Cheito]

I have seen it with my own eyes... among some of my more popular musician friends... 1 girl a night would be a slow night for some of them... once you throw group sex into the equation it would be possible...

I'm somewhere between 150 and 200 right now at age 36..... maybe half was paid for... and I'm considered practically a monk in my circles...

The Open mag article is real good, the only thing is I'm not so sure about the illegality of it being good, depends on enforcement.... once NYC seriously started cracking down on prostitution it wasn't so much fucking fun anymore :P

[Rubber Nursey]

Neither Gene Simmons, Wilt Chamberlain, nor anyone else has slept with 10,000 women. Just do the math. It's not credible. ...I'd say the world record can't be over 5,000.
Unless you're a hooker (male or female) - in which case, you can do those numbers in just a couple of years. :)

[Dickhead]

The claim was a man having sex with 10,000 women and male prostitute or not I do not believe it's possible. For a woman, sure. That's just 10 a day 250 days a year for four years. I don't think too many hookers are quite that popular but it's possible in theory. Some hookers here might do ten guys a day occasionally but regularly for years and years? Nah. I've been to some very high volume places like Trocadero in Lima but there are still busy days and slow days, good times and bad times,

Bango Cheito says "he's seen it with his own eyes." Hey BC, you have watched the same guy have sex 10,000 times with a different woman? Cuz that's what you said. I say bullshit. Those musicians and athletes (and hookers) flame out after a while. I don't think any man in history has ever fucked 10,000 different women. First of all you'd need to be unemployed to have the time to do it, and then you wouldn't have the money to do it. Or you could look at a Polynesian culture where all they did was fuck all day long but there weren't that many different women.

[Rubber Nursey]

The claim was a man having sex with 10,000 women and male prostitute or not I do not believe it's possible. For a woman, sure. That's just 10 a day 250 days a year for four years. I don't think too many hookers are quite that popular but it's possible in theory. Some hookers here might do ten guys a day occasionally but regularly for years and years?
I was just being facetious. :) Although, I do think it's entirely possible for a female hooker to clock up those numbers in a relatively short time. Depends where you live and how often you work, I guess. Male clients dramatically outnumber female sex workers in my state, so it's probably more likely here than in some other places. And we seem to have an overabundance of brothel rats and 'house regulars'...

[ThatGuy865]

People have to remember Wilt was a superstar from HS. Even if he started in College he probabaly was easily doing 2 and 3 at a time all the time. So 2 in the morning and 2 at night became a regular thing.

I know a guy who can put in 45 women in a 10 day period and thats with ease and he's over 50. And he does that each and every time he mongers and thats not even a big number for him.

Wilt had women coming on to him every day all day. And remember he was young during the times before AIDS when the worst thing going around could be cured with a single shot.

He played as a pro for 15 years. Just adding 3 college years on to that. 18 years. Lets say he screwed 250 days a year. Which still gives him over a 100 days off a year. All he would have to do is 4 a day. Now I sure he didn't do 4 each day. But I'm sure it was easy to avg that. Doing like 8 on fri and 8 on sat. And 2 or 3 a day during the week. The man was a super star un like no other back in those days.

[Gfe Finder]

I was just being facetious. :) Although, I do think it's entirely possible for a female hooker to clock up those numbers in a relatively short time. Depends where you live and how often you work, I guess. Male clients dramatically outnumber female sex workers in my state, so it's probably more likely here than in some other places. And we seem to have an overabundance of brothel rats and 'house regulars'...

Being generous and assuming an 8 year, 250 day per year working career, it would take 5 men per day every day on average.

As Dickhead said, you've got fast and slow days, so you might range from no or 1 client only on a slow day to 10 on a busy day. Any more clients could be painful, right RN? This would still be an average of 5 per day.

The issue I have in believing this 10,000 claim is one you articulated in the post-- regular customers. Even having a 20% repeat rate (I have no idea if this is high or low) means only 8,000 in this example.

More realistically, I'd believe a popular working girl could clock up 3,000 in her career: 4 years, 250 working days/year, 5 customers / day (average), and 40% repeats.

[Bango Cheito]

I've seen it over a period of months at a rate which over a period of 20 years or more would easily have yielded numbers over 10,000. Plenty of orgies backstage and in the hotel rooms, nobody was ever shy about doing it in front of anybody else. So I stand by my position.

A professional in some circumstances can average 8-10 hits a day and many work 6 and even 7 day weeks when they are trying to rack up the overtime.

[Rubber Nursey]

Hi Gfe Finder :)

I should clarify that when I said a working girl could clock up "those numbers" in a couple of years, it was in response to DH's original comment of "...I'd say the world record can't be over 5,000". Mind you, I don't think 10,000 is entirely unrealistic for a long-term worker. I think you guys are underestimating the length of time a sex worker can stay in the business - I have lots of friends who have worked for ten or fifteen years or more. And some of them routinely travel interstate and/or overseas to work, so they would have very few regulars skewing their numbers.

I wouldn't even try to estimate overall averages, because everyone works in different workplaces and in different ways. All I can state with any accuracy is my own experience.

I think my record was 19 clients in a double shift. (And for the record, it definitely wasn't painful. Tiring yes, but not painful. Pain is more likely to be a result of specific sex acts, rather than numbers). There were plenty of quiet times and many days where nobody walked in the door at all. A large number of my clients were regulars. My friend and I were big fans of offering cheap 'quickie specials', which often netted more than we would earn charging standard rates, but it meant we saw twice as many men in the process. All of these things make it difficult to estimate an average, but I think your guess at 5 clients a day is probably pretty accurate for me.

I'm not sure where the "250 working days" is coming from, but I worked WAY more than that in my first four years. I did 5 days a week during school terms and on school holidays (when my kids went away) I would often work solid double shifts. A double shift was about 14 hours, so that should count as more than one day's work! I probably took a month or so off over the course of a year, but the double shifts would well and truly compensate for those. I slowed up a bit after that (because I got a 2nd 'straight' job), but I still put in the hours whenever I could. I don't want to generalise, but a LOT of hookers are working out of financial desperation, which means working as often as humanly possible.

PS. As I said, it also depends on where you work. By my crude calculations, the WA sex industry client pool is around 150,000 (not counting interstate FIFO workers and tourists). There are only about 1500 female sex workers. Keeping in mind that the client base changes almost daily and that most clients will see a variety of girls over the course of a year, it's not unlikely that a WA sex worker could see very high numbers of different men, especially if she stays in the industry for some time. This might not be the case in places with larger numbers of hookers and/or a smaller number of clients.

[Gfe Finder]

Hi RN—

The 250 working days is an estimate based on the following:

1. It’s easier to do math with 250 as a base number as opposed to 300, 365, 247, etc.
2. Working 5 days a week (as you said you did), 250 days/year leaves 2 weeks for vacation. Not much, is it? Working 6-7 days a week 250 days / year (which come to think of it is more common at some of the venues I’ve been to) leaves anywhere from approximately 10-16 weeks of vacation. Again, talking with the women working at these venues, this is their experience.

I didn’t add any more for double shifts as I’m not sure this would necessarily increase the average number of clients. I would imagine that there are peak times of day for business (e.g. lunch hour, evening.) Being at work for twice the time thus wouldn’t necessarily mean twice the clients on average. I can’t be sure—I’m just making an assumption.

So, returning to the assumptions I’ve laid out:
250 working days /year x 5 clients/day = 1250 /year (ignoring repeats.)

Yes, venues are different and so assumptions will change. I’m just looking at an overall average based on the venues I’ve seen.

Since this is about how it’s possible to get to 10,000, it would seem that a woman working for 8 years or so could get to 10,000. After roughly 16 years, she’d hit Wilt Chamberlain’s claim of 20,000.

As for a man? Well, Wilt Chamberlain was alleged to be a virgin through high school. So being generous and assuming 45 years of eligibility, he’d need approximately 222 different women/year on average to hit 10,000 and 444 different women/year on average to hit 20,000. The former number strains credibility and the latter breaks it outright.



Hi Gfe Finder :)

I should clarify that when I said a working girl could clock up "those numbers" in a couple of years, it was in response to DH's original comment of "...I'd say the world record can't be over 5,000". Mind you, I don't think 10,000 is entirely unrealistic for a long-term worker. I think you guys are underestimating the length of time a sex worker can stay in the business - I have lots of friends who have worked for ten or fifteen years or more. And some of them routinely travel interstate and/or overseas to work, so they would have very few regulars skewing their numbers.

I wouldn't even try to estimate overall averages, because everyone works in different workplaces and in different ways. All I can state with any accuracy is my own experience.

I think my record was 19 clients in a double shift. (And for the record, it definitely wasn't painful. Tiring yes, but not painful. Pain is more likely to be a result of specific sex acts, rather than numbers). There were plenty of quiet times and many days where nobody walked in the door at all. A large number of my clients were regulars. My friend and I were big fans of offering cheap 'quickie specials', which often netted more than we would earn charging standard rates, but it meant we saw twice as many men in the process. All of these things make it difficult to estimate an average, but I think your guess at 5 clients a day is probably pretty accurate for me.

I'm not sure where the "250 working days" is coming from, but I worked WAY more than that in my first four years. I did 5 days a week during school terms and on school holidays (when my kids went away) I would often work solid double shifts. A double shift was about 14 hours, so that should count as more than one day's work! I probably took a month or so off over the course of a year, but the double shifts would well and truly compensate for those. I slowed up a bit after that (because I got a 2nd 'straight' job), but I still put in the hours whenever I could. I don't want to generalise, but a LOT of hookers are working out of financial desperation, which means working as often as humanly possible.

PS. As I said, it also depends on where you work. By my crude calculations, the WA sex industry client pool is around 150,000 (not counting interstate FIFO workers and tourists). There are only about 1500 female sex workers. Keeping in mind that the client base changes almost daily and that most clients will see a variety of girls over the course of a year, it's not unlikely that a WA sex worker could see very high numbers of different men, especially if she stays in the industry for some time. This might not be the case in places with larger numbers of hookers and/or a smaller number of clients.

[Rubber Nursey]

As for a man? Well, Wilt Chamberlain was alleged to be a virgin through high school. So being generous and assuming 45 years of eligibility, he’d need approximately 222 different women/year on average to hit 10,000 and 444 different women/year on average to hit 20,000. The former number strains credibility and the latter breaks it outright.
I agree.

I know this is stating the obvious, but it's directly related to the perceived 'Morality of Prostitution' and the discussion we had about female sexuality a few months ago... Soooo many male celebrities have built reputations on how many women they've bedded. In every memoir and autobiography, they brag about their conquests and try to outdo each other. It's almost de rigeur for ageing rock stars, in particular, to quote exact numbers of groupies they shagged along the way. Some men (Casanova and Errol Flynn, for example) are more famous for their sexual prowess than for their actual achievements.

The average hooker will almost always have had more sexual partners than the average man, but while male celebrities wear their sexual experience as a badge of honour, the hooker is tainted and sullied by it. It's more than just your basic sexual double-standard, where it's socially acceptable for men to screw around, but not for women... male celebrities are respected for it; hookers are HATED for it. And we don't accuse male celebrities of 'switching off' to 'cope' with having sex with countless strangers. We don't assume they'll come out of it with sexual dysfunctions, or PTSD, or self-esteem issues. We don't automatically associate these men with theft and drugs and lies and childhood sexual abuse. Why don't we talk about how many diseases he spread around or how many women he might have got pregnant? Why don't we examine his morals and motivations?

So, I wonder... if men respect other men who have had countless partners, why do so many men claim 'excessive sexual experience' as a primary reason NOT to marry a former sex worker? Is it jealousy that she's had more experience than you? Is it fear that her libido may exceed yours? Is it insecurity that you won't measure up against all the others? Or do you subscribe to the above theory that women are somehow damaged or degraded by sex, and that in order to do what they do, hookers must be devoid of personal morals and ethics... and if that's the case, why do you not apply the same reasoning to those male celebrities?

Ok, so you might not 'respect' these men, as such. But I'm sure that if you thought about Wilt's 10,000 women and my 5000 clients, you'd see the two in very different lights. I'd be really interested to know what springs to mind.

[Rubber Nursey]

I didn’t add any more for double shifts as I’m not sure this would necessarily increase the average number of clients. I would imagine that there are peak times of day for business (e.g. lunch hour, evening.) Being at work for twice the time thus wouldn’t necessarily mean twice the clients on average. I can’t be sure—I’m just making an assumption.
Just out of interest - and again, this is just my experience in my own city: Our peak times were generally early morning (lots of clients like to be your first for the day), lunchtime, close of business (on the way home from work and/or on the way to the pub) and pub closing time (midnight). Our shifts were 10am-6pm and 6pm-2am, so if you worked a double, you generally did double your clients. Especially for me, because I didn't work full day shifts during school terms ...I left between 4 and 5pm to pick up my kids, so I usually missed out on the lucrative after-work crowd.

[Macheath]

Ok, so you might not 'respect' these men, as such. But I'm sure that if you thought about Wilt's 10,000 women and my 5000 clients, you'd see the two in very different lights. I'd be really interested to know what springs to mind.[/QUOTE]

I definitely don't respect these "high numbers" men. There's just not that many desirable women around. If true then what they're doing would for me work as aversion therapy. Also a lot more interesting things to do in life. For the professional women of course it is different because it's a job.

[Warbucks]

I know this is stating the obvious, but it's directly related to the perceived 'Morality of Prostitution' and the discussion we had about female sexuality a few months ago... Soooo many male celebrities have built reputations on how many women they've bedded. In every memoir and autobiography, they brag about their conquests and try to outdo each other. It's almost de rigeur for ageing rock stars, in particular, to quote exact numbers of groupies they shagged along the way. Some men (Casanova and Errol Flynn, for example) are more famous for their sexual prowess than for their actual achievements.
It’s a man’s world. Nothing wrong with that. It’s also a white guy’s world. We who are not white have to accept that. Man who sleeps around are players. Women who sleep around are *****s, has loose morals and should be treated accordingly. When a man treats a ***** good he is called a “Captain Save a Hoe” for a reason.




The average hooker will almost always have had more sexual partners than the average man, but while male celebrities wear their sexual experience as a badge of honour, the hooker is tainted and sullied by it. It's more than just your basic sexual double-standard, where it's socially acceptable for men to screw around, but not for women... male celebrities are respected for it; hookers are HATED for it. And we don't accuse male celebrities of 'switching off' to 'cope' with having sex with countless strangers.
Now RN you seem like a bright woman but you keep missing this point. The reason why men are awarded for getting sex because it is hard for a man to get sex. Especially quote and quote free sex from “normal women.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMiyg87UhL4



We don't assume they'll come out of it with sexual dysfunctions, or PTSD, or self-esteem issues. We don't automatically associate these men with theft and drugs and lies and childhood sexual abuse. Why don't we talk about how many diseases he spread around or how many women he might have got pregnant? Why don't we examine his morals and motivations?
Let’s talk…… I think most prostitutes will suffer some form of psychological damage later in life. Abusive johns emotional trauma. As for the theft part lets talk about the Dubai board member Mad Hatter who was robbed for $30,000 by working girl and no that is not a typo. Let’s talk about other guy was brutally set up and beaten when a WG lured him to some place one of the European threads. Any wonder hookers are considered not to have a heart of gold?

They have to harden their hearts to survive in this business they have to become ruthless and if not they won’t last long. They are fucking for money. I assume child hood abuse the same way porn star Lex Steele does with women in the industry because it goes against everything ingrained in a women to give up the pussy for a few dollars. I know girls poor as all hell but they will not fuck for money.



So, I wonder... if men respect other men who have had countless partners, why do so many men claim 'excessive sexual experience' as a primary reason NOT to marry a former sex worker? Is it jealousy that she's had more experience than you? Is it fear that her libido may exceed yours? Is it insecurity that you won't measure up against all the others?

Just wouldn’t want some women who has been with a bunch of other dudes. Call me crazy but all the shit she did with other men would creep in my mind from time to time. It is not insecurity but it nice to know if she did have a partner before the numbers should not exceed three especially if she is in her 20s. If she exceeds number means she gives it up way to easy and who wants a woman like that to call his own? There are some guys who don’t mind but Warbucks is not one of him. I have nothing but the upmost respect for WGs but I wouldn’t date one even if she looked like Beyonce.





Or do you subscribe to the above theory that women are somehow damaged or degraded by sex, and that in order to do what they do, hookers must be devoid of personal morals and ethics... and if that's the case, why do you not apply the same reasoning to those male celebrities?
Yep I do subscribe to the belief they are damaged by sex ….but not degraded. The more sex she has the less valuable she becomes to a man.

Devoid of personal morals ethics? They fuck outright for money. I don’t know why this board seems to think there is no harm in this. Anyone wants their daughter to grow up be to be a prostitute?

I know Dickhead and RN said no problem but no offense to you guys but I wouldn’t want little she -bucks saying dad instead of you spending your war-bucks on my college tuition I will just take penis to ass :eek: and make my own way.




Ok, so you might not 'respect' these men, as such. But I'm sure that if you thought about Wilt's 10,000 women and my 5000 clients, you'd see the two in very different lights. I'd be really interested to know what springs to mind.
Its nature. Watch animals in the wild.




They assume that sex with a prostitute is the lowest form of sex and sex with some shut in housewife is the highest.... based on what, nobody knows....

etc etc etc.

Bango I know…. just take a look at the above statements. 19 dicks in one day? 4000 life total? I consider myself an addict and the most girls I have every fucked in one day was 3. Sex with a prostitute is the lowest form of sex just for the reasons boasted above sounds like a damn assembly line.


GEDANKEN….!

[Dickhead]

"Just wouldn’t want some women who has been with a bunch of other dudes. Call me crazy but all the shit she did with other men would creep in my mind from time to time. It is not insecurity"

It is actually insecurity combined with denial, combined with a ridiculous double standard. Who the hell would want YOU now that you've been with all these prostitutes?

[Rubber Nursey]

As for the theft part lets talk about the Dubai board member Mad Hatter who was robbed for $30,000 by working girl and no that is not a typo. Let’s talk about other guy was brutally set up and beaten when a WG lured him to some place one of the European threads. Any wonder hookers are considered not to have a heart of gold?
Warbucks...you, of all people, should know better than to punish a whole group for the sins of a few. Should I distrust all Black men because the news continually focuses on the criminal element? Some hookers steal and lie. In my experience, clients steal and lie even more. Have a quick look around this forum and see how often men manipulate, underpay and rip-off sex workers. But that's still no reason to tar them all with the same brush.


Just wouldn’t want some women who has been with a bunch of other dudes. Call me crazy but all the shit she did with other men would creep in my mind from time to time. It is not insecurity...
It is, actually. But that's ok. I have no problem with people being choosy about who they spend their lives with. I'm just interested in the thinking behind it.


19 dicks in one day? 4000 life total? I consider myself an addict and the most girls I have every fucked in one day was 3. Sex with a prostitute is the lowest form of sex just for the reasons boasted above sounds like a damn assembly line.
And what, exactly, did you get out of those three women, Warbucks? A quick bit of fun (hopefully) and an orgasm? If I saw three clients in one day, I could pay my rent and feed my kids. Just imagine all the things that 19 clients in a day could pay for! I made a whole lot of men feel good and leave with a smile on their face - and a whole lot of men made ME feel good and gave me the means to provide for my family. We were honest with each other, treated each other with respect and enjoyed the sex for what it was. I really can't see how that's a "lower" form of sex. Personally, I see paid sex as the most pure and raw and honest form of sex there is.

[Rubber Nursey]

I definitely don't respect these "high numbers" men. There's just not that many desirable women around. If true then what they're doing would for me work as aversion therapy. Also a lot more interesting things to do in life. For the professional women of course it is different because it's a job.
Now, there's a response I didn't expect. :) Thanks!

[Warbucks]

It is actually insecurity combined with denial, combined with a ridiculous double standard. Who the hell would want YOU now that you've been with all these prostitutes?
Could you and RN please explain the insecurity part?

Insecure:

ADJECTIVE

1. Not sure or certain; doubtful: unemployed and facing an insecure future.

2. Inadequately guarded or protected; unsafe: A shortage of military police made the air base insecure.

3. Not firm or fixed; unsteady: an insecure foothold.
4.
a. Lacking stability; troubled: an insecure relationship.

b. Lacking self-confidence; plagued by anxiety: had always felt insecure at parties.

What is insecure about not wanting to be with a woman who has had a lot of sex partners? As for the double standard part: America has nuclear bombs. Does not want Iran and others to have one. Constitution is written with the words “all men are created equal” a race of people are bought, transported and enslaved. The world is built on a double standard. Denial… yeah but not me and G.



Warbucks...you, of all people, should know better than to punish a whole group for the sins of a few. Should I distrust all Black men because the news continually focuses on the criminal element? Some hookers steal and lie. In my experience, clients steal and lie even more. Have a quick look around this forum and see how often men manipulate, underpay and rip-off sex workers. But that's still no reason to tar them all with the same brush.
I am not saying all prostitutes are bad I got two good WG friends and I try to talk them out of the business every time after I screw them :D but why is it when I enter the 5 star hotel rooms that I usually frequent with WGs the first thing I do is lock up my valuables? I got two normal girls I am dating besides my live in and I don’t lock my stuff with them.

Long time ago I came home from my US based Military installation. I tried to catch a taxi in my hometown. All the taxis refused to give me ride. Why because of the fear of me robbing or maybe killing them because this was the stereotype. Was I angry with those taxis? No I was angry with my brethren. I caught the bus LOL.




And what, exactly, did you get out of those three women, Warbucks? A quick bit of fun (hopefully) and an orgasm? If I saw three clients in one day, I could pay my rent and feed my kids. Just imagine all the things that 19 clients in a day could pay for!
RN so this comes all down to dividends? (money) My jewelry collection is valued at about 40% of the average annual (yearly) US salary in 2009. That 500 Pesos $10.60 I paid to those young women was peanuts. I lost a few bucks they lost something that was priceless.

[Bango Cheito]

What *I* personally find sexy more than anything else is exactly that, EXPERIENCE... I know the TRUTH, that the more experienced a woman is sexually, the more it turns me on... because I KNOW the sex is going to be better and the communication will be easier.

I also don't have to worry about the jockeys that have been there before me, because I'm very confident of my own ability with a woman, and I'm flexible and adaptable enough to give her whatever she wants. Because I myself have a decent base of experience now. THAT was something to worry about when I was still 20 years old. :P

A woman like RN to me is the ultimate turn on. I'd service her for hours practically no matter what she looked like. :P And I wouldn´t ***** about having to pay for it after either. HAHAHAHAHAHAAH

What I think is DISGUSTING is the idea of a virgin, especially the older you get. THERE is a perfect example of something in this world that is overvalued, if it ever had ANY value to begin with.

If you look at animals in the wild you will see close to ZERO real monogamy, and the monogamous species are the ones that are DYING OUT, make no mistake about it. That includes us, if we stay as monogamous as we are we are FINISHED as a species. Mother Nature just won't have us like that anymore.

[Gfe Finder]

Just out of interest - and again, this is just my experience in my own city: Our peak times were generally early morning (lots of clients like to be your first for the day), lunchtime, close of business (on the way home from work and/or on the way to the pub) and pub closing time (midnight). Our shifts were 10am-6pm and 6pm-2am, so if you worked a double, you generally did double your clients. Especially for me, because I didn't work full day shifts during school terms ...I left between 4 and 5pm to pick up my kids, so I usually missed out on the lucrative after-work crowd.

Fair enough.... As I said, I was making an assumption based on what working girls had told me. Thanks for sharing your own experiences and correcting the information I had!

[Gfe Finder]

Ok, so you might not 'respect' these men, as such. But I'm sure that if you thought about Wilt's 10,000 women and my 5000 clients, you'd see the two in very different lights. I'd be really interested to know what springs to mind.

Any respect I have for them is tempered by the fact that they (Wilt, Casanova, Errol, etc.) are almost certainly exaggerating part or all of their experiences.

I don't view either the women or men you cite in a negative light as long as the relationship was respectful and each party got what s/he wanted from it.

[Member #4214]

So, I wonder... if men respect other men who have had countless partners, why do so many men claim 'excessive sexual experience' as a primary reason NOT to marry a former sex worker? Is it jealousy that she's had more experience than you? Is it fear that her libido may exceed yours? Is it insecurity that you won't measure up against all the others? Or do you subscribe to the above theory that women are somehow damaged or degraded by sex, and that in order to do what they do, hookers must be devoid of personal morals and ethics... and if that's the case, why do you not apply the same reasoning to those male celebrities?

I will answer your question, because I do get turned off when knowing/hearing that a woman has had X-too many partners. I cringed when you wrote about '19 clients a day' and about working X hours to service X guys day in and day out.

My preference is for girls who, while not virgins (too much trouble), generally have had few partners, and here is why:

Generally speaking women are emotional creatures, at least relative to men. For most women their early sexual experience stirs deep emotions. In my experience the more a woman is stirred/touched, the better her service. Even in most P4P situations there is some level of mutual attraction, even affection. The client chose the provider for some reason - he was attracted to her at least to some degree. The provider accepted him as client - he was appealing or at least acceptable on one level or another. So even in these cases there is some brief connection. Now in my view the more partners a SW has had, the more likely she will have dissociated the act from her emotions. The prospect for even a fleeting connection is more remote, or must be fabricated for the sake of business. Without the barest thread of emotional involvement in the act, sex can be akin to masturbation. I prefer not to pay women to let me masturbate in/on them. I want them to be emotionally involved on some level.

I've currently settled in with a 'Freebie' Filipina. (She refuses to be compensated for sex, but expects and accepts a modest 'allowance' as my mistress.) I'm married, and I'm only the Filipina's second partner. Though we are conducting an ongoing transaction, there is an emotional connection that is much harder to establish with a more experienced/jaded woman.

So to answer your questions:

why do so many men claim 'excessive sexual experience' as a primary reason NOT to marry a former sex worker? Because I believe her ability/willingness to form a trusting emotional attachment is impaired.

Is it jealousy that she's had more experience than you? Not at all.

Is it fear that her libido may exceed yours? Haha ... how could that ever be a problem!?!

Is it insecurity that you won't measure up against all the others? Never ...

Or do you subscribe to the above theory that women are somehow damaged or degraded by sex, and that in order to do what they do, hookers must be devoid of personal morals and ethics ...

I would never say an experienced SW is devoid of personal morals and ethics. In fact I generally find them to be of higher standards - generally more honest, at least in Asia. (Not sure I can say that for Western women.) But I would say an experienced SW has an impaired ability/willingness to form an emotional attachment. This is what women must sacrifice in the business. That is why if a hooker/former hooker were to tell a guy 'I love you,' he would likely discount it as shallow, fleeting, and otherwise unreliable.

That is my view anyway.

[ThatGuy865]

It's a man's world. Nothing wrong with that. It's also a white guy's world. We who are not white have to accept that."When it comes to business, I'll give you that Whites have an advantage. But with women. NO WAY. White, black, Brown. Its all about the man. If you have looks, game, style and charisma. I don't care what color you are. You will get women.


Now RN you seem like a bright woman but you keep missing this point. The reason why men are awarded for getting sex because it is hard for a man to get sex. Especially quote and quote free sex from "normal women."You shouldn't generalize like that and speak of your own experience.

In my neighborhood only the nerdy, quiet, square guys couldn't get laid. Everyone else got women. Maybe they all didn't get a lot of women. But I didn't know anyone growing up who P4P except old men. And everyone I knew was fucking. On a reqular basis. Very few guys I knew had problems getting girl friends.

[Bango Cheito]

I haven't slept with 10,000 women... I'm too young and was born too late for that and misssed most of the most promiscuous years :P

I have maybe slept with between 150 and 200 women all told, I haven't kept a good count really....

But I ASSURE you my capacity to emotionally bond with women hasn't gotten any worse in that time.... it has actually gotten BETTER!

[Warbucks]

I will answer your question, because I do get turned off when knowing/hearing that a woman has had X-too many partners. I cringed when you wrote about '19 clients a day' and about working X hours to service X guys day in and day out……


In the words of Bill and Ted

Excellent....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Ted


When it comes to business, I'll give you that Whites have an advantage. But with women. NO WAY. White, black, Brown. Its all about the man. If you have looks, game, style and charisma. I don't care what color you are. You will get women.
My statements about color had nothing to do with pulling women was just pointing out in life there are things that we must accept even though we don’t like it. Life is a shit sandwich and the more bread (money) you have the less shit you have to eat.



You shouldn't generalize like that and speak of your own experience.

My experience well …..you see I had it hard with women in my hometown because I didn’t go for the fat and ugly as a lot of my brethren I went after the cream of the crop and was turned down a lot but I rather go for cream than settle for less. I will generalize and say it is not as easy a man to get sex from a woman than it is for a woman to get sex from a man. Unless you are rich or famous this is stupid to even challenge.

PS I don’t care how much game or look, or coolness you got you cannot fuck a variation of different women as a man who participates in P4P. I got a buddy who has it all the looks the “game” and I have watch him get shot down many times but the most memorable was in Phuket by a Black British international real-estate agent. He tried everything in his arsenal but she wouldn’t bite :)


In my neighborhood only the nerdy, quiet, square guys couldn't get laid. Everyone else got women. Maybe they all didn't get a lot of women. But I didn't know anyone growing up who P4P except old men. And everyone I knew was fucking. On a reqular basis. Very few guys I knew had problems getting girl friends.

I was never nerdy and damn sure not quiet LOL. I been described as a jewelry wearing braggart right here on these boards LOL (by guys who never met me but this is their preception). Warbucks is reserved in real life.
Your right anyone can get laid I have a unattractive American woman who is begging me to fuck her where I work right now. Now I rather pay some cute (my specifications) chick than fuck this fat girl for free. Does that make me a loser? There is pussy to be had by all for free but what type of pussy is the million dollar question.

I never went the P4P route in my hometown and I never thought about it. I have never traveled to a country with the sole intention to fuck the local ladies. First time I paid for pussy I was in Uzbek for work. First time I went to Thailand I was there to see a dentist to get my grill fixed for the cheap and my return visits to Thailand was to see my dentist read my reports. Now living in PI I didn’t move their by choice ( some shit went down in Japan) and if I did move some fucking where only to monger it would be somewhere like DR or South America where the Black Man is appreciated.

Warbucks Over And Fucking Out

[DriedUp]

I don't know how this relates to your comments below. But it occurred to me. Now that I am 38, girls my age, 30 and above, want me badly.

And yet, the 18-29, don't.

Very peculiar. I have my suspicions. Security. Want kids. Want stability.

And many times, love, attraction, is the first sacrifice.

And the men who marry. Not all. But many I have met, come across.

Make a deal with themselves. To do it, to not be alone.

And it is a hard hard compromise. Sometimes, you regret it.

Sooner or later. Or you sit quietly, watching tv. Like my dad.

I wonder if I will be the next victim.

I have a girl now who wants me. Marriage and kids.

She is so loyal. So there. But carnal love?

I don't feel it.

[Goga Fung]

PS I don’t care how much game or look, or coolness you got you cannot fuck a variation of different women as a man who participates in P4P.I can't agree more. For some reason some people seem not to get it.

Also with "free" girls it takes me weeks(several dates since everybody is so busy in USA) to get her comfortable for sexual stuff. 10 years ago I was able to be patient, but now by the time she is ready for sex, I had already lost any interest in her. I just realized that during the last few years I scared a few girls by acting too fast, but also turned down some others.

The best experience what I have been getting is from P4P girls. Of course many of them are not good, but because I pay, it takes very little time and headache to find something I like. And the bad experiences are easily forgotten since they are very short, and the good and funny ones are well remembered.


Your right anyone can get laid I have a unattractive American woman who is begging me to fuck her where I work right now. Now I rather pay some cute (my specifications) chick than fuck this fat girl for free. Does that make me a loser? There is pussy to be had by all for free but what type of pussy is the million dollar question.I too, I would pay for a better shit, or not fuck at all then fuck a girl I do not like. I remember when I was young I fucked one fat ugly girl. I still regret it. We were drunk at a party and i just wanted to fuck an American girl. That was disgusting shit. But free and very willing to do anything. Some other people "loved" her.

[Chocha Monger]

It’s a man’s world. Nothing wrong with that. It’s also a white guy’s world. We who are not white have to accept that.
The white races colonized or subjugated all other nations in the world. If you look at those who hold the wealth and most of the nuclear warheads there is no doubt about who is in charge. It is only natural that woman associate white men with wealth and power. Skin whiteners are the new rage in Asia, especially China where a pale complexion and a small penis are considered appealing in a man. Chinese women have a reputation for shunning large penises and dark skin within their homeland. Of course, in Dubai they take all comers but that is just business. Major players in the skin whitening products business include: Beiersdorf, manufacturer of Nivea products; L’Oreal, the world giant of the cosmetics industry; and Unilever.

“Francis Flores, senior product manager of Ponds, which carries the whitening line of the Unilever group, says another reason for the growth was that most Asians associate beauty with having white skin, which was likely a holdover from their colonial past when white was might.” – Tina Areceo-Dumlao

Skin whitening products labeled racist
============================
Cosmetic adverts in Asia are targeting men with blunt campaigns aimed at skin color that one lawmaker labels racist.
In one TV commercial, two men, one with dark skin, the other with light skin; stand on a balcony overlooking a neighborhood. The dark skin guy turns to his friend and says in Hindi, “I am unlucky because of my face.” His light skin friend replies, “Not because of your face, because of the color of your face.”
Suddenly the light skin guy throws his friend a cream. It’s a whitening cream.
It is one of several television commercials aimed at men in Pakistan and India. In the end the darker skin actor is shown several shades lighter and he gets the girl he was after. Most of the ads end up that way.
The commercials are sending a not so subtle message to men in Asia. Get whiter skin and you’ll get the girl and the job of your dreams or at the very least you’ll be noticed.
“We always have a complex towards a white skin, towards foreign skin or foreign hair.” Jawed Habib says.
Habib should know, he owns a chain of 140 salons located in India and across the world. “We Indian people, we Asian people are more darker so we want to look more fair.”
Skin whiteners were once targeted only to women. Now the products are a hot commodity for men.
Many of the brands being advertised for men are well known around the world including Nivea and Garnier.
A marketing study found sales for skin whitening creams have jumped more than 100 percent in rural India and sales for male grooming products are increasing 20 percent annually.
Hindustan Unilever, one of the largest consumer products companies in India, noted in recent annual reports that “skin lightening continues to be a major area of emphasis” for its skin care division.
And Emami Ltd., the company which produces “Fair and Handsome,” sent CNN an email saying: “Fair and Handsome is a market leader with almost 70 percent market share in India and doing extremely well in Gulf countries and the Middle East as well.”
But in a country where most people have brown skin, the message being sent to men and women has some people outraged.
“Basically if you need a job you have to have white skin. If you want a good partner, a companion you need white skin and you always seem to get it once you’ve used the fairness cream. Basically I think it’s completely racist and highly objectionable,” says Brinda Karat.
Karat is a member of India’s Parliament who has made formal complaints about the advertisements to Indian authorities. She says they ads are simply playing on a social stigma that already exists in India.
To get a good look at the pervasiveness of the stigma attached to dark skin in India all you have to do is look at the want ads for Brides and Grooms in the newspaper.
Arranged marriages are still commonplace in India and the advertisements for brides and grooms often list physical attributes of the person being sought. Many of the ads list “fair” as one of the wanted physical characteristics.
“I mean at a time when we’re talking about talents and skills, and the need for the accessibility to that to develop our potential; what does it do to dark persons’ self esteem? Karat says. “I think it should be stopped.”
But the product makers say they are simply giving the public what it wants and a few Indian consumers we spoke with agreed.
Deepak Rajput said: “Everybody wants to look handsome and beautiful, why not me?”
alon owner Jawed Habib says he will accommodate if that is what the customer wants but he doesn’t push the skin whitening products.
“Why do you even think about it?” He says: “Let’s accept the way we are.”
Source: CNN
=======================================================

Daddy Warbucks is right. Instead of denying the obvious it is better to work within or around the paradigm.


…white people living in the USA don't like the truth concerning racism and their racist practices… Meat Loaf’s statement can be expand beyond white people living in the USA and it would still ring true.

Even Asians have a hard time dating their own women except for closed communities like the Chinese. Asian women prefer to marry white once they get to the USA. Warbucks is a realist and prefers not to waste his time begging for acceptance or inclusion.

[ThatGuy865]

My experience well.. You see I had it hard with women in my hometown because I didn't go for the fat and ugly as a lot of my brethren I went after the cream of the crop and was turned down a lot but I rather go for cream than settle for less.Growing up the fellas I ran with always thoght the fine, beautiful women were the easiest to get because so many guys talked themselves out of trying. Just expecting that a beautiful woman must have hundreds of men hitting on them, when most of the time its the opposite. A lot of guys were too scared to hit on beautiful women. The crew I ran with. No one even would have dared to hit/fuck a fat women. Its all about attitude. If you think you "The Shit". The babes will think so too.


I will generalize and say it is not as easy a man to get sex from a woman than it is for a woman to get sex from a man. Unless you are rich or famous this is stupid to even challenge.That is absolutely true. But it has more to do with the fact that guys will fuck anything moving. Where women are much more selective. So a woman has a pick of the bar. When she walks in. Where a guy has to be like a hawk and staulk his prey. Just as there are a lot of arrogant Fat girls who swear they look good. But you don't find as many guys who have the same attitude, because they have been rejected so many times.


PS I don't care how much game or look, or coolness you got you cannot fuck a variation of different women as a man who participates in P4P.Yeah but the guy who talks his way into his pussy will probably have more self esteem than the one who has to pay. Shit paying for pussy has no merit to it. And says little about the women you fucking cause anybody with the cost of admission can do the same. The ugly dumb ass fat boy next door. If he has the money.

Where as, when you talk the panties off a fine ass women it gives you that sense of accomplishment because you know there are guys out there that might look good, even have more money than you, or whatever but they can't get this ass, and definitely not the fat ugly guy next door.


I was never nerdy and damn sure not quiet LOL. I been described as a jewelry wearing braggart right here on these boards LOL (by guys who never met me but this is their preception). Warbucks is reserved in real life.

Your right anyone can get laid I have a unattractive American woman who is begging me to fuck her where I work right now. Now I rather pay some cute (my specifications) chick than fuck this fat girl for free. Does that make me a loser? There is pussy to be had by all for free but what type of pussy is the million dollar question.You being in the PI with a decent job. Should have FREE model material running through your place all day long. I know too many guys in the PI who don't pay at all that have beautiful young babes, cleaning their homes, fucking them silly. Of course there is nothing wrong with getting the occasional "hit on the side". But on a regular, it should be FREE. No guy who lives in the PI needs to pay for pussy.


if I did move some fucking where only to monger it would be somewhere like DR or South America where the Black Man is appreciated.I know guy who live in most modernize countries and they all say a BLACK AMERICAN is appreciate where every he lives. Now if you are Black of another country it may be different, but a BLACK from America can get plenty of women in any country.

Warbucks Over And Fucking Out[/QUOTE]

[Rubber Nursey]

Wow, you guys rock. :) Thanks so much for your honesty. I really do find this stuff fascinating.

Houziwang: I love that you acknowledged the potential for an 'emotional connection' in commercial transactions. I don't think a long-term sex worker necessarily loses the ability to make emotional connections - and I definitely don't agree that a former hooker can't back up "I love you" with real feelings - but (as in any other job), long-term sex workers can certainly suffer burnout and lose enthusiasm and passion for their work. If your work is sex, it does make sense that some of that feeling might cross over into your private bedroom, but that depends on how well you're able to separate your personal and professional life. I've never subscribed to the idea that sex workers 'disconnect their emotions' while having paid sex. The emotions involved are not absent, just different.

Gfe Finder: I love that you, like Houziwang, considered the question in the context of emotions, rather than the sex act itself. Mutual respect and honesty matters much more to me than numbers.

Bango: You know I loves ya, baby. ;) I totally agree with virginity being over-valued and over-rated. If I'm hungry for sex, the *last* thing I want is someone who doesn't know which end is up! I want to be surprised and spoiled and excited by my partners. I want them to take charge and teach me something new. I don't want someone staring blankly at me, waiting for me to show them what to do next. Ok, so maybe 'training someone up' might be a power trip at first, but it would quickly become frustrating and boring.

[Rubber Nursey]

I will generalize and say it is not as easy a man to get sex from a woman than it is for a woman to get sex from a man... I have a unattractive American woman who is begging me to fuck her where I work right now. Now I rather pay some cute (my specifications) chick than fuck this fat girl for free.
This 'it's harder for men to get sex' thing really shits me. Do you think that 'unattractive American woman' finds it easy to pick up? Or the disabled woman, or the fat woman, or the older woman, or the single mother...the list goes on. Sure, I could walk into my local pub and offer free sex and there would be a stampede of balding, beer-bellied men in their 50's. But if I walked into a nightclub full of hot, young 20-somethings and did the same thing, I'd be laughed out of the place. Hot women can get laid easily, as can hot men. 'Ordinary' looking men may even have some advantages, because money and power counts for a lot in some circles, and (generally speaking) age and experience is admired more in men than it is in women.

If men REALLY wanted sex, they'd get onto a dating site and pick up an average looking, slightly plump, 40 year old mother of five. They'd go to a pub and pick up that shy girl with glasses and buck teeth. They'd ask that fat chick in their office out on a date. If you're not willing to compromise - or if you consistently try to date outside of your age/looks/wealth/etc group - you're probably not going to get laid, whether you're male OR female.


Could you and RN please explain the insecurity part? ...What is insecure about not wanting to be with a woman who has had a lot of sex partners?
You said "all the shit she did with other men would creep in my mind from time to time". What if she's only slept with ONE man before. ONE long-term relationship, where she enjoyed a healthy, active sex life with her partner. Does the other shit still creep into your mind?

Also, let's say you found an inexperienced girlfriend and you told her that you'd slept with a couple of hundred women in the past. One night, she tells you she can't get the image of you screwing all those other women out of her head. What do you say to her? Do you tell her it's all in your past and what matters is here and now, with her? Do you minimise or justify your prior experience with comments like "They didn't mean anything to me" or "I was young and stupid"? Do you tell her she's being silly or prudish...or insecure?

[Rubber Nursey]

Yeah but the guy who talks his way into his pussy will probably have more self esteem than the one who has to pay.
I disagree. Being repeatedly rejected can do irreparable damage to a person's self-esteem. I'd say it's probably better (for self-image and self-respect) to pay for it than never get it at all.

[Chocha Monger]

You said "all the shit she did with other men would creep in my mind from time to time". What if she's only slept with ONE man before. ONE long-term relationship, where she enjoyed a healthy, active sex life with her partner. Does the other shit still creep into your mind?
Rubber Nursey, it would make more sense to you if understood just how much men define themselves by their penises. If a woman were to tell her man that her previous boyfriend had a much longer thicker cock than his he’d probably be devastated. If she were to tell him that her previous lover had much more stamina and could fuck for 2 to 3 hours nonstop before busting a nut her current man would probably feel very threatened and inadequate. There is a reason why guys pay good money for worthless pills like Enzyte. Even though logic tells them it’s a waste of money then can’t stand to think that maybe, just maybe it might make their dicks bigger.

A really pretty petite girl abroad was dating a fellow American and she asked me a few questions because there were some problems in the relationship. Please keep in mind that this guy was a pilot, a profession generally associated with confidence and nerves of steel. Well, the issue turned out to be of a sexual nature. The guy was white and the girl’s previous boyfriend was black American. The problem was that he kept telling her, “I know that your previous boyfriend was black and he had a bigger penis than mine. Just tell me if I am not satisfying you in bed and I will understand.” The poor girl couldn’t understand why it mattered that much to him. She thought that he would be happy that she fucked and sucked him regularly but he couldn’t get his mind off the thought that the black guy was better at filling her holes.

In America Chinese guys have a hard time dating American women because they are believed to have very small penises. So, penis size and performance matters a lot to guys. If a guy thinks that a woman has experienced much larger penises, fuck sessions lasting several hours, penetrations in all holes in all possible positions and countless come-in-mouth shots, he may well feel that there is nothing he can do to distinguish himself from all the others. Guys want to feel special to women. They all want to believe that they’re giving their woman the best fuck of her life. They can’t accept that there might be a cock or, forbid the thought, cocks better than their own out there that their woman sampled.

[Rubber Nursey]

Rubber Nursey, it would make more sense to you if understood just how much men define themselves by their penises.
Trust me, Chocha. I've listened to hundreds of men's fears and insecurities (in anonymous, sexually 'open' environments). I probably understand it more than most women.

But please don't underestimate a woman's insecurities in the bedroom. In general, men are judged on their strength, their power, their wealth, etc. Women are judged almost entirely on their looks. When we know that our partner has been with other women, I can't tell you how crazy our imagination gets - was she prettier than me? Younger? Did she have bigger boobs, a tighter vagina, a flatter stomach? Did she do things that I'm not willing to do for him? Did she do him on the first date or the fifth? Was he attracted to her age, her mind, her wealth, or her perky little butt? What do I have to do to keep him satisfied and stop him from straying?

If you guys think WE aren't insecure about how many previous partners you've had, you're kidding yourselves.

[Chocha Monger]

Trust me, Chocha. I've listened to hundreds of men's fears and insecurities (in anonymous, sexually 'open' environments). I probably understand it more than most women.

But please don't underestimate a woman's insecurities in the bedroom. In general, men are judged on their strength, their power, their wealth, etc. Women are judged almost entirely on their looks. When we know that our partner has been with other women, I can't tell you how crazy our imagination gets - was she prettier than me? Younger? Did she have bigger boobs, a tighter vagina, a flatter stomach? Did she do things that I'm not willing to do for him? Did she do him on the first date or the fifth? Was he attracted to her age, her mind, her wealth, or her perky little butt? What do I have to do to keep him satisfied and stop him from straying?

If you guys think WE aren't insecure about how many previous partners you've had, you're kidding yourselves.
RN,

You make some very good points there. I think that I may have a better understanding for some of the seemly irrational and crazy behavior that I've noticed in women. Silly little things like women not wanting their boyfriend/husband getting a ride in a car with another woman even when there is a perfectly logical reason for doing so like work related duties.

[Rubber Nursey]

I think that I may have a better understanding for some of the seemly irrational and crazy behavior that I've noticed in women. Silly little things like women not wanting their boyfriend/husband getting a ride in a car with another woman even when there is a perfectly logical reason for doing so like work related duties.
In modern society, beauty is a 16 year old, airbrushed model - passed off as a 'woman'. We're told that's what men find attractive, but real women can't possibly compete with that. We feel constantly inadequate. We're also constantly bombarded with the message that men 'need sex'. That they need variety. That it's inevitable that your man will cheat. (And we're often blamed for it when he does! We got older, we didn't give him enough sex, we had kids, we let ourselves go...)

In my experience, women live in constant fear of each other. There is always someone more beautiful, younger, bustier, thinner, etc - and our social conditioning tells us that if our man sees someone who fits in one of those categories, he's probably going to chase after it. Yes, it's seems slightly insane for your woman to throw a tantrum because you rode in a car with another girl - but it she was younger, fitter, sexier, etc than your woman perceives herself to be, that fear is going to set in, unbidden.

[Macheath]

This 'it's harder for men to get sex' thing really shits me. Do you think that 'unattractive American woman' finds it easy to pick up? Or the disabled woman, or the fat woman, or the older woman, or the single mother...the list goes on.

RN this misses the point that the (western) woman is, generally, less interested in sex than the man. Or at least less interested in just sex as opposed to sex tied up with romance, seduction, emotions, commitment etc which demonstrates her value. If the woman gives away her sex too easily then she reduces her power to extract benefits from the man. The woman wants the man to see her as valuable, and to know that her sex is a precious part of herself that has to be earned. It can't be sold quickly and cheaply. The less fortunate woman - unattractive, disabled, old, fat, single mother etc is generally even less interested in sex because the benefits that it can extract for her are much reduced. Still she can generally obtain sex but just for lower reward from men with less.

There is really a war between men and women. And war is a game of tactics and deception. Each side deceives to obtain their prize - sex and self esteem for the man, material benefits and self esteem for the woman. As in all wars there is rarely a clear winner with a common outcome being both parties stuck in a quagmire relationship.

The war plays out in various arenas. Eg these so called guys with "game" who can talk their way into any pussy - this seems to be an American conceit which often applies to the poor, black American or white "trailer trash" demographic. The guy with "game" attempts to impress with his, generally, tasteless clothes, jewellery and car etc which has nothing substantial to back it up. But the girl who gives it up to him is still expecting some pay off to advance her situation. The unfortunate result is often unwanted babies and absent deadbeat fathers.

As has been said before, woman hate prostitutes because they subvert this game by selling sex without all the other bullshit attached, and at a far lower price.

Of course none of this is scientific and very general - which doesn't make it generally less true.

[ThatGuy865]

I disagree. Being repeatedly rejected can do irreparable damage to a person's self-esteem. I'd say it's probably better (for self-image and self-respect) to pay for it than never get it at all.Rn,

I am glad you are on the forum to give a different point of view totally. Now having said that, Yes what you say is true.

But I was not talking about a guy who doesn't get ANY pussy at all. I'm talking about the guy who has the confidence to go out and talks to a women and get laid. While no man gets a Yes answer 100% of the time. Even if you are do 50% a man will fill like a stud. So he won't consider going to P4P cause he can do just as good if he hits the clubs.

Yeah If a guy can't get laid at all, or almost always strikes out trying to talk to girls. Maybe the P4P game is the way to go for him. Personally, if he was a friend of mine. I'd advise him to try harder with the women, unless in was over 40. Maybe hit the gym, dress better, get a little confidence when you approach a woman.

[ThatGuy865]

But please don't underestimate a woman's insecurities in the bedroom. In general, men are judged on their strength, their power, their wealth, etc. Women are judged almost entirely on their looks. When we know that our partner has been with other women, I can't tell you how crazy our imagination gets - was she prettier than me? Younger? Did she have bigger boobs, a tighter vagina, a flatter stomach? Did she do things that I'm not willing to do for him? Did she do him on the first date or the fifth? Was he attracted to her age, her mind, her wealth, or her perky little butt? What do I have to do to keep him satisfied and stop him from straying?

If you guys think WE aren't insecure about how many previous partners you've had, you're kidding yourselves.Rn,

This is something I learned as a teen. That is why my fellas and I always hit on beautiful women. Because a lot of beautiful women never realize their true beauty because women focus on that one or two things that is not perfect and become so insecure about it. Even when a guy doesn't notice them. It throws off their whole perception of themselves. It isn't until a women gets older and wiser that they become a bit more comfortable with their imperfections.

[Warbucks]

You being in the PI with a decent job. Should have FREE model material running through your place all day long. I know too many guys in the PI who don't pay at all that have beautiful young babes, cleaning their homes, fucking them silly. Of course there is nothing wrong with getting the occasional "hit on the side". But on a regular, it should be FREE. No guy who lives in the PI needs to pay for pussy.

Model material cleaning homes? No model type material found in PI by mongers much; just check the photo gallery LOL.

In PI “WE ALL PAY” whether it’s through outright transactions or through sponsorships or through gifts. Read the reports of the old hands of the Philippines and you will see either they are sending money or giving gifts. It is still a payment for services rendered. There is an ISG member who sends his “girlfriend's” family $500 every month. To me this is madness. One Aussie I personally know even put his “side piece” through fucking college while being married.

I have two "main" educated independent girls on the side. Now if we we to go out to eat should I make them pay on their $250 a month salary versus my over inflated monthly 5 figure one?

It is difficult to lie and make excuses why I can’t be here or spend this time with this one. It is easier to just fuck the bar girls. On the flip side (pun intended) it just feels good to be around some normal women for while. When you are in a garbage dump (Brothels) all the time you start to feel a little dirty.


I know guy who live in most modernize countries and they all say a BLACK AMERICAN is appreciate where every he lives. Now if you are Black of another country it may be different, but a BLACK from America can get plenty of women in any country.

This is a lie man. There is so much stuff on the internet about educated Black men being discriminated against in Asia and other countries it is beyond comprehension. I am not attacking you TG I like your posts and don’t believe in attacking posters and any if they have problem with what is written should attack the post but do you read anything or do you just skim through stuff.

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:NpV1DOu12jIJ:www.stickmanbangkok.com/reader/reader615.html+racism+against+blacks+in+thailand&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

I know retired Black American expats who live in PI and you should hear some of their stories about racist bullshit they have put with in PI but as they always say easy access to that tight pinay dugout makes it worth it :D

[Warbucks]

this 'it's harder for men to get sex' thing really shits me. do you think that 'unattractive american woman' finds it easy to pick up? or the disabled woman, or the fat woman, or the older woman, or the single mother...the list goes on. sure, i could walk into my local pub and offer free sex and there would be a stampede of balding, beer-bellied men in their 50's. but if i walked into a nightclub full of hot, young 20-somethings and did the same thing, i'd be laughed out of the place. hot women can get laid easily, as can hot men. 'ordinary' looking men may even have some advantages, because money and power counts for a lot in some circles, and (generally speaking) age and experience is admired more in men than it is in women.

your chances are better some guy would still give you shot for being a woman some guys are not so choosy about pussy especially guys who have not traveled and seen what is available to them overseas.


if men really wanted sex, they'd get onto a dating site and pick up an average looking, slightly plump, 40 year old mother of five. they'd go to a pub and pick up that shy girl with glasses and buck teeth. they'd ask that fat chick in their office out on a date. if you're not willing to compromise - or if you consistently try to date outside of your age/looks/wealth/etc group - you're probably not going to get laid, whether you're male or female.
agreed that’s why i pay. :( lol


you said "all the shit she did with other men would creep in my mind from time to time". what if she's only slept with one man before. one long-term relationship, where she enjoyed a healthy, active sex life with her partner. does the other shit still creep into your mind?

well yeah from time to time but i take some solace in knowing that she was with one man that she loved. i would take solace in knowing she doesn’t give it up too easy. as long she didn’t do too much crazy shit with the dude. plunger in the ass with the pig mask on etc….lol.


also, let's say you found an inexperienced girlfriend and you told her that you'd slept with a couple of hundred women in the past. one night, she tells you she can't get the image of you screwing all those other women out of her head. what do you say to her? do you tell her it's all in your past and what matters is here and now, with her? do you minimise or justify your prior experience with comments like "they didn't mean anything to me" or "i was young and stupid"? do you tell her she's being silly or prudish...or insecure?
i am in that situation now. i have a virgin devout romantic catholic girl i am seeing. she kept asking how many women i slept with and i told her a lot. she said how many is a lot? i told her if it is going to be problem she should find someone more her speed. i allowed her to think on it for while. she is ok with it lol.




but please don't underestimate a woman's insecurities in the bedroom. in general, men are judged on their strength, their power, their wealth, etc. women are judged almost entirely on their looks. when we know that our partner has been with other women, i can't tell you how crazy our imagination gets - was she prettier than me? younger? did she have bigger boobs, a tighter vagina, a flatter stomach? did she do things that i'm not willing to do for him? did she do him on the first date or the fifth? was he attracted to her age, her mind, her wealth, or her perky little butt? what do i have to do to keep him satisfied and stop him from straying?

if you guys think we aren't insecure about how many previous partners you've had, you're kidding yourselves.
i got busted by an ex a long time ago. she kept asking me over and over am i not good enough for you? are those other girls satisfying you? what do they have that i don’t? she couldn’t understand that she was perfect body wise and beauty wise i just felt the need to fuck some other pussy.

[Opebo]

In modern society, beauty is a 16 year old, airbrushed model...

And no doubt in the cave-man days, beauty was a 13 year old, smelly, unwashed cousin.

[ThatGuy865]

This is a lie man. There is so much stuff on the internet about educated Black men being discriminated against in Asia and other countries it is beyond comprehension. I am not attacking you TG I like your posts and don't believe in attacking posters and any if they have problem with what is written should attack the post but do you read anything or do you just skim through stuff.

I know retired Black American expats who live in PI and you should hear some of their stories about racist bullshit they have put with in PI but as they always say easy access to that tight pinay dugout makes it worth it.I never write to argue with anyone. Just to tell what is my experiences. I guess we just have different types of friends. Yes, If you are the type of person who walks around lookin and thinking every time something doesn't go your way you are being discriminated against then yes you will think everywhere is that way.

A lot of times when an asian does something for another asian or give them a deal that they don't give you. A person feels like its discrimination. As a black person a lot of times it taken personal. And think it about there skin color. When in fact, It just a asian to asian deal.

They would have done the same no matter what race the foreigner was. But because whites don't have the history of race discriminating against them. They will say the asian doesn't like foreigners. Where a black would take it more personally and say the asian doesn't like black.

Is it discrimination. Yes, of course. But its not aimed at him being Black, its anyone who isn't of that asian persuasion.

I have traveled all around the PI, with a white friend and have never been treated differently because of being Black versus white.

The guys I know don't sweat the small stuff and are living in the PI without that being an issue. A lot of time they try to tell me how much better they have it in the PI than I do in the US. Because of racism in the US and how they don't worry about it in the PI. So we obviously hang around brothers with different views.

Besides if it was that racist, why would a retiree stay there. He could move to like you say the DR or South Am where they appreciate a brother. Why do they stay in such racist envoirnemnt. Answer me that. And it can't only be the women because the DR and SA both have plenty of women. So why?

[Oh Ya Papi]

My friend a successful writer head editor went to the D. R. With a real cool, Light Skin black police officer, and guys he is the mack here in USA, he fucked my girlfriend's friend at a party in the bathroom when she was confused and believed she was a dyke. Great conquest, anyways.

They went to the Dominican Rep. and everywhere the went they asked my white friend if he was his servant. He got so pissed he changed his flight and came back to USA.

Peace, and buena suerte!

[Warbucks]

My friend a successful writer head editor went to the D. R. With a real cool, Light Skin black police officer, and guys he is the mack here in USA, he fucked my girlfriend's friend at a party in the bathroom when she was confused and believed she was a dyke. Great conquest, anyways.

They went to the Dominican Rep. and everywhere the went they asked my white friend if he was his servant. He got so pissed he changed his flight and came back to USA.

Peace, and buena suerte!
I got Warbucks home boys who are dark skin and they go to DR/Brazil every vacation and own $100,000 Condos they seem not have any problems.

[Chocha Monger]

My friend a successful writer head editor went to the D. R. With a real cool, Light Skin black police officer, and guys he is the mack here in USA, he fucked my girlfriend's friend at a party in the bathroom when she was confused and believed she was a dyke. Great conquest, anyways.

They went to the Dominican Rep. and everywhere the went they asked my white friend if he was his servant. He got so pissed he changed his flight and came back to USA.

Peace, and buena suerte!
Frankly, something like that wouldn't surprise me at all. Dominicans aren't considered to be very bright. In Puerto Rico they consider them to be the pendejos (idiots) of Latin America. They come to P.R. illegally to work as domestic servants, cane cutters, or coffee bean pickers. I don't think a day goes by without a boricua making a joke about how stupid Dominicanos are. They also make endless puta jokes about the Dominicanas. Most Puerto Rican women refuse to let their boyfriends/husbands go unaccompanied to D.R. because of the puteria. :D

[Bango Cheito]

RN I think you're a little off there, although some people here may feel it's a problem specifically with American or North American women, I think it's the CULTURE itself and to a certain extent it exists in every cultures. In Spanish they have two great words to describe this behavior "mogigato" and "asolapado"... I wish I could translate them, but they both mean basically the same thing, that idiot who wants to dive into the pool but keeps talking his or herself out of it.

I've tried on occasion to pick up the wallflower or the regular or ugly girl. Many times these girls are their own worst enemies, furthermore, when I look back on my OWN life I think of all the pussy I turned down because my own internal demons were messing with my head. I have them under control now but it took years and years of discipline to do so. And I think paying for sex helped. It kind of takes you out of your own skin and gives you a bit of a bird's eye view on yourself.

I do NOT think having sex and love all meshed together is a healthy thing actually. It is something promoted by society to the detriment of the individual. IMHO the more separate you can keep sex and "love" in your life the happier and healthier you will be.

[KnickFan]

Frankly, something like that wouldn't surprise me at all. Dominicans aren't considered to be very bright. In Puerto Rico they consider them to be the pendejos (idiots) of Latin America. They come to P.R. illegally to work as domestic servants, cane cutters, or coffee bean pickers. I don't think a day goes by without a boricua making a joke about how stupid Dominicanos are. They also make endless puta jokes about the Dominicanas. Most Puerto Rican women refuse to let their boyfriends/husbands go unaccompanied to D.R. because of the puteria. :D

Eh, but the issue is that wherever non white nations have been colonized, they have adopted the racist color caste system. The Puerto Ricans look down on the Dominican because they are Blacker, the Dominicans look Down on the Haitians (and Black AMericans that dont scream American and dark Dominicans)because they are blacker. The Argentinians looks down on all of South Americans because they are the whitest... It has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with the racist system imposed of these formerly colonized/enslaved folks. In all of these countries from DR to the Phillipines to Brazil the lighter (whiter) you are the better. richer, smarted, and more beautiful you are percieved.

In other words it doesn't make me feel better that I get the nod because she heard me speak with an American accent while my Ken Doll looking wingman could literally spew shit from his mouth and still get chased down.

[Gedanken]

Here's one for Rubber Nursey:


Prostitution and trafficking – the anatomy of a moral panic
Nick Davies
The Guardian, Tuesday 20 October 2009

There is something familiar about the tide of misinformation which has swept through the subject of sex trafficking in the UK: it flows through exactly the same channels as the now notorious torrent about Saddam Hussein's weapons.

In the story of UK sex trafficking, the conclusions of academics who study the sex trade have been subjected to the same treatment as the restrained reports of intelligence analysts who studied Iraqi weapons – stripped of caution, stretched to their most alarming possible meaning and tossed into the public domain. There, they have been picked up by the media who have stretched them even further in stories which have then been treated as reliable sources by politicians, who in turn provided quotes for more misleading stories.

In both cases, the cycle has been driven by political opportunists and interest groups in pursuit of an agenda.

-Link- (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated)

[Rubber Nursey]

And another :) :

Inquiry fails to find single trafficker who forced anybody into prostitution.

The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country.

The failure has been disclosed by a Guardian investigation which also suggests that the scale of and nature of sex trafficking into the UK has been exaggerated by politicians and media.

Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

[Gedanken]

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/ReadersSubmissions2009/reader5450.htm

The thought has crossed my mind.The thought has crossed my mind too. The hostility from Cocha Monger and Dickhead definitely smells of fear. Cold fear!! Just kidding guys, you know I love you.

Me: I've have no fear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MmpUWEW6Is. If I get bored of mongering, I'll gradually recover from it, improve my view of women to something approaching what it was before I started down this road, then find a wife. If I don't get bored with jetting all over the world and fucking exotic women - well, I guess I'll still get old one day - what, then, if there comes a point where I get old having never married etc. and can no longer fuck for some reason, or I get dementia or something?

I just don't think you can live life hamstrung by maybes, and I personally don't rank living in fear as a constructive basis for any sort of life. Maybe if I get married and start to get old, my whole family could die in a car accident and I end up committing suicide as a result.

I'm not saying I live life in a cavalier fashion, but I do think you can worry about things too much. This world is a far from perfect place, there are no guarantees about anything; if something negative ends up happening to me towards the end of my time on this planet, so be it. Like everyone else, I presume, I wish I had some machine for looking into the future so I could see in advance what the consequences of my actions would be - but I just don't have that machine.

So I plan for a retirement, not knowing if I'll have a heart attack in my fifties or die from cancer in my forties; I choose to fly around the world and monger, not knowing if I'll regret it bitterly at the end of my life as I look back on the experiences I passed up and the absence of a family to call my own.

Human life is not easy. It's all too brief, and for much of the world it's a nasty struggle just to survive on the absolute basics, often less than that. At the very least, there are far worse lives to lead than that of your typical rich-world monger.

Well, if the worst does happen toward the end, I think Thailand or somewhere would be a good place to retire: there's plenty of solace to be found in numbers!

**Gedanken**

[Chocha Monger]

Nice [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) take Gedanken. ;) However, I am quite at ease with the endless possible outcomes of the future. I'm quite sure that Mr. Dickhead feels likewise also. That story could have had many other possible unhappy outcomes complete with ex-wives on vaginamony and hefty child support payments leaving the old bastard unable to afford care in a nice retirement home.

Anyway, where is your sense of adventure? I think dying asphyxiated by applesauce is much less glorified than giving some sweet young tart the final parting shot in a darkened alleyway with your mongering boots on and a silly smile your face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddqx_cWUN-g&feature=PlayList&p=697BE3A61F09EE19&index=7&playnext=6&playnext_from=PL

[Gedanken]

Anyway, where is your sense of adventure? I think dying asphyxiated by applesauce is much less glorified than giving some sweet young tart the final parting shot in a darkened alleyway with your mongering boots on and a silly smile your face.You said it, bro. Here's to growing old disgracefully!

[Susie In Van]

My name is Susie and I am a sex worker of 23 years. I love my job and can't imiagine living any other way. Call me a harlot, I am proud. Many of my customers are friends some as long as 18 years.

I have to say, I agree completely that some men need to have more than one woman.

If you look at recent data regarding the four tribes of DNA, meaning we are all related to/or share the same DNA as only 4 women, it puts men's need for "other" pussy into a whole different light. If it weren't for this need, we would not be sucessful as a species! It is the philandering of men that has created such diveristy amoung us. If men weren't horny and needing, searching attempting to impregnate as many pussies as possible our race may not have survived.

And what does our world do? We shame them for it. Criminalize it and make it taboo. In the age of safe sex the old christian morales don't make sense. It made sense when people were dying in huge numbers as a result of STI's. People are still dying but within our reach is safety and protection from risks in this regard for people everywhere, codoms.

In my opinion, we should embrace this and end the shaming of men's horniness. I believe it would reduce violence against women if men's sexuality was treated with respect and dignity.

Love from your happy surrogate harlot,

Susie in vanXXXO

[DJ FourMoney]

Eh, but the issue is that wherever non white nations have been colonized, they have adopted the racist color caste system. The Puerto Ricans look down on the Dominican because they are Blacker, the Dominicans look Down on the Haitians (and Black AMericans that dont scream American and dark Dominicans)because they are blacker. The Argentinians looks down on all of South Americans because they are the whitest... It has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with the racist system imposed of these formerly colonized/enslaved folks. In all of these countries from DR to the Phillipines to Brazil the lighter (whiter) you are the better. richer, smarted, and more beautiful you are percieved.

In other words it doesn't make me feel better that I get the nod because she heard me speak with an American accent while my Ken Doll looking wingman could literally spew shit from his mouth and still get chased down.

It doesn't make me feel any better, nor any worst. It is, what it is.

Would I like to have a truly level playing field? Sure, but it would take tons of hardwork, blood shed and maybe 50-100 years + Obama's legacy would have to be seen as a sweeping success and that's just the beginning.

You are 100% correct about Colonial Britain/Spain/Portugal/Netherlands installing its "White Makes Right" socioeconomic system. Dark skin is considered inferior, I mean you can't undo what's been taught for 200+ years in less than 100 years, no matter how "enlighten" the population becomes.

In South America, what is NOT talked about in North America (because that would be like looking in the mirror) is how dark skinned Latin people are treated. From Indians to those with roots from Africa and the West Indies they are treated no better than Black Americans were and largely still are treated. That's why when Bolivians elected a dark skinned President, it opened alot of eyes in South America. America has largely been the biggest player in South America since the turn of the century as Europe found itself constantly fighting each other. It has installed many "leaders" often ruthless dictators. They usually are the Whitest, those with European roots.

Look at any Top 10 hottest list of South American women and they all have European features save for a couple, especially those from Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, Colombia, etc.

I don't mean to derail this thread into a discussion about "race" but as with often many things around the world, its often based on how we treat those we believe are "less" than we are.

[Rubber Nursey]

My name is Susie and I am a sex worker of 23 years. I love my job and can't imiagine living any other way. Call me a harlot, I am proud.
Welcome, Susie! Always lovely to have another proud wh*re join the conversation. :)

[Nicholas7]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I would like to briefly discuss something that is beginning to make me feel somewhat distressed and even guilty.

First, I am a renifleur. That is someone who is sexually aroused or gratified by odors. I have been a renifleur for as long as I can remember, definitely since I was a child. Whether in my masturbatory fantasies or in reality, my overriding desire is to caress my face against a cute women's fleshy, plump butt and then gently press my nose to sniff and masturbate to the smells of her stinky anus. Going back and forth between caressing and sniffing and masturbating myself to her funky smells.

In fantasy, whenever I see a beautiful woman the first and only thing I would like to do is worship her butt and gently sniff it for all it's worth.

Now, if you are wondering if I've ever had a 'normal' intimate relationship with a woman, yes I have. For three years in my early thirties (I am now 37). We did have regular intercourse frequently but it was never anything special for me. Not terribly exciting. My complete fascination with women's backsides, including cellulite and stretch marks, just never went away. I will confess to having cheated on her several times a year by my abstaining from sex for a couple weeks and then going out to find a nice chubby prostitute with a wide, jiggly butt to bury my nose in.

This is such a powerful drive within me. Wanting to sniff as many cute lady's big butts as I can. My usual modus operandi is to abstain from all masturbation at two month intervals (in order to build up the brain sex chemicals and testosterone) and then 'treat myself' to a full-figured and mature sex worker with a humongous butt.

Now my questions:

Although I am now single and satisfied in my work life, is this sexual behavior normal or something I should be concerned about?

Did something go wrong in my psychosexual development?

As far as I know not many people have this preference and most I imagine would view it as either bizarre or 'immature'.

Any insight or advice you can share about my condition would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Nicholas

[Nicholas7]

I am a bit disappointed that no one has commented.

Just briefly:

Is this something that requires some sort of therapy or can I simply be myself and enjoy without shame what I've always enjoyed?

[Jake993]

My name is Susie and I am a sex worker of 23 years. I love my job and can't imiagine living any other way. Call me a harlot, I am proud. Many of my customers are friends some as long as 18 years.

I have to say, I agree completely that some men need to have more than one woman.

If you look at recent data regarding the four tribes of DNA, meaning we are all related to/or share the same DNA as only 4 women, it puts men's need for "other" pussy into a whole different light. If it weren't for this need, we would not be sucessful as a species! It is the philandering of men that has created such diveristy amoung us. If men weren't horny and needing, searching attempting to impregnate as many pussies as possible our race may not have survived.

And what does our world do? We shame them for it. Criminalize it and make it taboo. In the age of safe sex the old christian morales don't make sense. It made sense when people were dying in huge numbers as a result of STI's. People are still dying but within our reach is safety and protection from risks in this regard for people everywhere, codoms.

In my opinion, we should embrace this and end the shaming of men's horniness. I believe it would reduce violence against women if men's sexuality was treated with respect and dignity.

Love from your happy surrogate harlot,

Susie in vanXXXO

Hey Susie,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. I really enjoyed it.
Always nice to get the perspective from you girls.
Your perspective is well put and most certainly well received. Too bad we can convince the religious right and their pandering politicians to get in step with the rest of the world.
Again, welcome.
Jake

[Tungurahua]

Nicolas7,

In spite of the many who speak, act and want to believe in the contrary, we are animals. Scent is one of five senses employed in living a healthy life, including sexuality. With an enhanced sense of smell hardwired into your brain you are a sniffer and get off on it, you enjoy what you enjoy, it hurts no one, who gives a flying fuck what others think.

Just as I would recommend the following advice for a monger to give to a Christian regarding prostitution, when someone says you need help for sniffing asses then give them a stiff middle finger and walk on.

We're on an international mongering board here so conventional 'wisdom' be damned.

Sniff long and prosper, Nic.

[Nicholas7]

Thanks muchly, Tungurahua.


In spite of how everyone speaks, acts and wants to believe to the contrary, we are animals. Yup, and as Richard Dawkins says:

"We admit that we are like apes, but we seldom realise that we are apes"


Scent is one of five senses employed in living a healthy life, including sexualityIt's also our oldest and most primitive sense, closely hooked into our MEMORIES...That explains a lot.

[Artisttyp]

Ladies and gentlemen,

I would like to briefly discuss something that is beginning to make me feel somewhat distressed and even guilty.

First, I am a renifleur. That is someone who is sexually aroused or gratified by odors. I have been a renifleur for as long as I can remember, definitely since I was a child. Whether in my masturbatory fantasies or in reality, my overriding desire is to caress my face against a cute women's fleshy, plump butt and then gently press my nose to sniff and masturbate to the smells of her stinky anus. Going back and forth between caressing and sniffing and masturbating myself to her funky smells.

In fantasy, whenever I see a beautiful woman the first and only thing I would like to do is worship her butt and gently sniff it for all it's worth.

Now, if you are wondering if I've ever had a 'normal' intimate relationship with a woman, yes I have. For three years in my early thirties (I am now 37). We did have regular intercourse frequently but it was never anything special for me. Not terribly exciting. My complete fascination with women's backsides, including cellulite and stretch marks, just never went away. I will confess to having cheated on her several times a year by my abstaining from sex for a couple weeks and then going out to find a nice chubby prostitute with a wide, jiggly butt to bury my nose in.

This is such a powerful drive within me. Wanting to sniff as many cute lady's big butts as I can. My usual modus operandi is to abstain from all masturbation at two month intervals (in order to build up the brain sex chemicals and testosterone) and then 'treat myself' to a full-figured and mature sex worker with a humongous butt.

Now my questions:

Although I am now single and satisfied in my work life, is this sexual behavior normal or something I should be concerned about?

Did something go wrong in my psychosexual development?

As far as I know not many people have this preference and most I imagine would view it as either bizarre or 'immature'.

Any insight or advice you can share about my condition would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Nicholas

I am one of you. I pay to bang and lick big asses. Oddly enough I wouldn't want to be seen dating some of these girls. The fact that I can hit and run makes it ok. ...that's kind of demented but totally understandable.

Alot of these girls I can only do once. I like *strange ass smell. If I am smelling familiar ass then it isn't taboo anymore.

When you can hit and run you get a clearer understanding of your own sexuality. What I learned is I am very flexible ! I just won't do obese or ugly like what I get offered (with alot of work) in america. Knowing that I am that flexible makes my "american" reality even more depressing.

Stink is a real trip. I have the most sensitive nose around..or at least in my family. I get grossed out by other people's smells all the time. The other night I smelled a guys breath behind me while sitting at a play. I was absolutely grossed out. However when you stick a womens sticky asshole in my face I get excitied.

My take on stink is it's the ultimate submissive position. How much lower can you go than licking someone else's discharge?..wherever it comes from. If the girl is hot then you should feel privilged to even be smelling her filth.


Have you ever licked feet while a chick was taking a shit ? I'd like to :)


It all fetsih IMHO nothing wrong with it. When I fuck I am the dominant one.

[Goga Fung]

First, I am a renifleur. That is someone who is sexually aroused or gratified by odors. I have been a renifleur for as long as I can remember, definitely since I was a child. Whether in my masturbatory fantasies or in reality, my overriding desire is to caress my face against a cute women's fleshy, plump butt and then gently press my nose to sniff and masturbate to the smells of her stinky anus. Going back and forth between caressing and sniffing and masturbating myself to her funky smells.

In fantasy, whenever I see a beautiful woman the first and only thing I would like to do is worship her butt and gently sniff it for all it's worth.

My complete fascination with women's backsides, including cellulite and stretch marks, just never went away. I will confess to having cheated on her several times a year by my abstaining from sex for a couple weeks and then going out to find a nice chubby prostitute with a wide, jiggly butt to bury my nose in.

This is such a powerful drive within me. Wanting to sniff as many cute lady's big butts as I can. My usual modus operandi is to abstain from all masturbation at two month intervals (in order to build up the brain sex chemicals and testosterone) and then 'treat myself' to a full-figured and mature sex worker with a humongous butt.



I am one of you. I pay to bang and lick big asses. Oddly enough I wouldn't want to be seen dating some of these girls. The fact that I can hit and run makes it ok. ...that's kind of demented but totally understandable.

My take on stink is it's the ultimate submissive position. How much lower can you go than licking someone else's discharge?..wherever it comes from. If the girl is hot then you should feel privilged to even be smelling her filth.

Have you ever licked feet while a chick was taking a shit ? I'd like to :)

It all fetsih IMHO nothing wrong with it. When I fuck I am the dominant one.Wow, that's incredible:)

Although I would not imagine these kinda things were possible, I guess it's everybody's personal preferences.

Personally I like to see girls assholes only if she's beautiful and got clean firm ass with no hair. And no shit smell for sure:)

From what you wrote, is not that a bit dangerous from a hygene point of view, especially that shit comes from a prostitute? I would assume one can get sick, even though he likes the taste.. or you get immune to this kinda stuff?

[Artisttyp]

[QUOTE=Goga Fung]Wow, that's incredible:)

Although I would not imagine these kinda things were possible, I guess it's everybody's personal preferences.

Personally I like to see girls assholes only if she's beautiful and got clean firm ass with no hair. And no shit smell for sure:)

From what you wrote, is not that a bit dangerous from a hygene point of view, especially that shit comes from a prostitute? I would assume one can get sick, even though he likes the taste.. or you get immune to this kinda stuff?[/QUOTE

Yes caution is a must. Even with soap and water a ripe hole will stay true to it's cause....so no worries. When it's a non pro well that's when the going is really good.

PFP has it's limits in the stink department but there is still good cheese to be had.

* By the way the term "renifleur" is a gas !

[Gentleman Travel]

My name is Susie and I am a sex worker of 23 years. I love my job and can't imiagine living any other way. Call me a harlot, I am proud....

Love from your happy surrogate harlot,

Susie in vanXXXO
Susie, does your nickname mean you are in Vancouver?
If so, I might want to avail myself of your enthusiastic services some day.

Please put up an ad in the BC section so I can contact you.

GT

[Dickhead]

Good riddance to this asshole:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34435346/ns/us_news-faith/?GT1=43001

[Westy]

I went back over a year on this thread, and found my perspective wasn't quite covered. It's not a comfortable one, but here I am with it.

I believe it's more morally appropriate, not just for me but for the "she" that I might otherwise seek out, if I step away from the carousel of "find her. Court her. Marry her. Raise a family together. " Better for her, because she can find someone better FOR her (someone who might live to see the kids graduate from college!) Better for me, because I'm frankly past the time when I should have had kids of my own. Better for the future, because I don't figure I belong in the gene-pool.

Where does that leave me? Mongering, because I can be sure of giving my partner something she values (the Yankee dollah!) in exchange for what I crave. I don't believe any woman I want is going to want me for myself, but at least I know my money will be worth something to a woman who's "selling her favors".

Background: My mother raised me by herself, as a single parent, and I stayed with her after I reached adulthood. It was obvious that we could get along better together, my salary with hers, than we could get along separately. Shortly after she retired, we bought a house together. Her down payment, my monthly payments. She lived with me the rest of her life.

No USA woman is going to put up with the prospect of a live-in mother-in-law, so I didn't see much hope for me to "find love. " I did manage a couple of nice romances, but they didn't hold together for more than a few months. And after I bought our house, I gave up on even looking: too hard on the lady-friends, too hard on Mom, too hard on me. When Mom breathed her last, I was 48 years old, and I was woefully unready to "look for love". I had grown up seeing that "women didn't need men, " didn't reach adulthood till soon after the "feminazi" movement took over the land, and had it painted pretty obvious that I was about as welcome in singles-social circles as a porcupine dipped in shit.

A trip to Paraguay, two years after Mom died. Official business, going with a colleague who had spent several years in-country and knows the country well. Changed my life. I got my first taste of "ground rations" in twenty years, and I didn't mind that it was "restaurant fare rather than home-cooked" (to apply Opebo's analogy from mid-August '09). It was just wonderful to get it on with someone young and attractive and willing. I had too much invested in my career to move down there, but I did take up mongering when I could afford the occasional trip Down South.

Then, a few months ago, I got faced with the possibility of love-and-marriage with a beautiful young Greek woman. "Helen, " I'll call her; an "adopted granddaughter" of my mother's closest friend. (I borrow her sobriquet from the Iliad, because she certainly has everything it would take to float my boat!) "Helen" likes older men, is a schoolteacher in Greece, and she would like to get married and have a family. And when we met, she acted like she'd "like to get to know me better. " Tempting. But I tripped over a painful question: What would happen to my dreams and hopes and wishes and plans, if I followed hers? I'd be too busy "being a daddy" for the rest of my life! Fifty-six is old enough that a child born "of my seed" would be likely to bury his daddy before he/she got out of school, and I'd give the rest of my life to supporting Helen's expectations and our children's needs. (My needs and wants? We'll get around to those when fish learn to whistle.)

I also know my natural inclinations. To be generous, to give way, to value "smooth sailing" even at the price of my own happiness. Leave me very very vulnerable to getting "pu$$y-whipped" over the long term. And, having been raised without a Dad, I would never want to leave my child without my presence in his/her childhood.

Finally, "Daddy" is not what I want to be for the rest of my life.

So. If what "Helen" wants is not what I want. Isn't my best, most honest, most morally appropriate action to step aside and wish her a partner who does want what she wants?

By extension, I understand full well that I'm not of an age to be "a suitable mate" for a pretty twentysomething lady. Here in the USA. I'm sure that even an American "fortysomething" would only put up with me out of sheer desperation, and she'd likely despise me for the sexual nature of my attraction. So isn't my best response to stand aside and let "her" go look for someone who fulfills her dreams? In other words, why even bother them?

It seems more honest, more fair & equitable all-around, to get "professional help" for my hungers. But P4P is illegal in the USA. All but a few counties in Nevada. And so it's risky and expensive; whereas a few hours' flight downrange will take me to any of several countries where P4P is legal or at least well-tolerated, where the "workin' girls" don't recoil from a fiftysomething with money in his jeans, and where the local economy is such that my "Yankee dollah" will take me farther than it would "in the 'hood. " And if "All Day All Night Mary-Ann, " to quote the old calypso song, makes as much from two hours with me as she would make in a week of siftin' sand. It doesn't seem unreasonable of me to believe that she'll be satisfied, too. Value for value.

Maybe this is selfish of me; but I spent all of my childhood being "quiet" and "good" and almost all of my adult life being "selfless" and "altruistic. " Now, at this point, I think I'm entitled to look out for my happiness, not "yours" at the exclusion of mine. (Nor "mine at the exclusion of yours. ") Fair enough?

[Oaktree]

This 'it's harder for men to get sex' thing really shits me. Do you think that 'unattractive American woman' finds it easy to pick up? Or the disabled woman, or the fat woman, or the older woman, or the single mother. The list goes on. Sure, I could walk into my local pub and offer free sex and there would be a stampede of balding, beer-bellied men in their 50's. But if I walked into a nightclub full of hot, young 20-somethings and did the same thing, I'd be laughed out of the place. Hot women can get laid easily, as can hot men. 'Ordinary' looking men may even have some advantages, because money and power counts for a lot in some circles, and (generally speaking) age and experience is admired more in men than it is in women.I disagree.

Yes, I think that an unattractive American woman finds it easy to pick up. I'll put it this way, given the same level of attractiveness, a woman will find it easier to get sex for free than a man.

You can talk about edge cases all you like, but honestly, if we're trying to make generalizations, we're not talking about the 300 lb. Double amputee here. We're talking about the average American man/woman. By average, I mean that on a scale of 1-10, they're going to be rated around 4-8, which is what the vast majority of Americans fall under. Yeah, if your weight class puts you in the 98th percentile, you're going to have a different experience, but to try and apply that experience as being relevant to Americans in general is simply inaccurate.

For the average American woman, getting sex for free is easy. Getting sex for free from a man who is also of average attractiveness is easy. In fact, if you're offering it for free, getting sex from a man who is more attractive isn't that hard either.

Part of it is that a man is generally willing to have sex with a woman they're dating with ASAP. The woman's willingness is generally the limiting factor. I have yet to meet a man who's ever said anything resembling "man, this girl I went out with last night really wanted to get into my pants, but I think we should wait until at least the 3rd date. "

Couple this with many (but not all) women expecting the man in such a setting to pay for food, drinks, etc., and suddenly the man is in effect paying for sex in those situations. So, no, if a the average guy "really wanted sex", he would not ask out the 40 year old mother of 5. Instead, he'd spend $150 to bang the hot Asian massage girl around the corner. It's probably cheaper.

The only place where girls have it tough is the fact that girls are not considered more attractive with age, while men are (to a point). However, the fact that American women age so poorly is largely their own fault. If they stayed out of the god damn tanning salons and put on some sunscreen, they wouldn't look like a prune at 40.

[Dickhead]

Very interesting point of view, Westy. Certainly mongering is more moral than filling women up with bullshit just to get laid. Now some may say it is not necessary to bullshit women to get laid. That may be true if all you want is one or two women. Let's not overlook the fact that women often put up a false front to get the security they desire, then turn into frigid pigs once the wedding takes place and a kid or two is squirted out. Of course now they don't even squirt them out too much so you have to put up with a nasty C-section scar for the next fifty years. Even in the happiest of marriage there is not sex on demand, ordinarily. I like "Simon Sez" sex: do this, do this, now do this. A GF tends to get tired of that fairly fast.

Me, I spent none of my life being selfless and altruistic and all of my life chasing just as much pussy as I could, and pretty much fucked off my career. There would be zero possibility of becoming pussy whipped or giving way, and I'm not all that generous. Therefore you have two very different people coming to the exact same conclusion that mongering is the more moral choice.

However, for mongering to be moral, the monger must act ethically. No creating false expectations, no lies other than the necessary little white ones, no impregnating and fleeing, and no acting like you are any better than she is.

[Westy]

Certainly mongering is more moral than filling women up with bullshit just to get laid.. Let's not overlook the fact that women often put up a false front to get the security they desire, then turn into frigid pigs once the wedding takes place and a kid or two is squirted out.. Even in the happiest of marriage there is not sex on demand, ordinarily.Marriage is, or at least it should be, about much much more than rumpling the sheets. Certainly once the kids come along, it's got to be all about them; that's survival, and human children really need more than just Mommy to take care of them and love & nurture them and all that. But so often, so many women treat "Mommy" and "Honey" as incompatible tasks, and "Daddy" is usually the one who gets left out of the "loving & nurturing" department.

Add about fifteen years fifty pounds, and a chronic "Not tonight" headache to your "Princess, " and Daddy's going to be a whole lot less interested in rumpling the sheets with her. By that time, though, he's trapped, and it's "immoral" not to mention illegal for him to be looking for someone fresh and exciting. Which, Society now says, is "all the man's fault. "


However, for mongering to be moral, the monger must act ethically. No creating false expectations, no lies other than the necessary little white ones, no impregnating and fleeing, and no acting like you are any better than she is.Absolutely right in all counts, especially the last. If anything, I might regard her as "better than me", in that she can sell it but I've have to pay for it. Plus, I'm paying her to "be my girlfriend" for an hour (or maybe TLN) and I naturally want to treat her like my girlfriend. I don't expect to "rock her world" but I'd prefer that she enjoy the ride too.

And I appreciate her as a fellow human being, with her own hopes and dreams and fears and hurts; I'd really prefer that she feel happy and good about herself, too, when she kisses me good-night and one of us walks out the door.

[Chocha Monger]

Westy:

You make some very interesting points. You clearly know what you want and what you don’t want. You are being honest with yourself. Many men would not look at things from such a realistic point of view. Most would ignore what they truly want in order to enjoy the immediate access to Helen’s favors. Two people going into a relationship with different expectations at the cost of their dreams will only succeed in making each other extremely unhappy and producing emotionally traumatized offspring.

In your case mongering is not only moral. It is the responsible thing to do. I have seen people go through 3 to 4 marriages because they were not honest with themselves. Some people want it all. They want the freedom and variety that comes with mongering, and they also want the familiarity of a wife and children. Usually this ends in disaster. The news is filled with famous men who thought that they could give up their dreams or secretly enjoy them. It never works out in the long run. You should follow your dreams. If you sacrifice your needs, wants, aspirations and desires to make a woman happy you will end up resenting her in the end. Unfortunately, family, friends and society often pressure people into marriage and parenthood because of traditional beliefs.

[George90]

I also agree with you, Westy. Though I expect that few women would appreciate your candor. I feel most women generally, and American women specifically, wold react very badly at you if you were as honest with them as you showed in your post. Many live in a Harlequin Romance dream and your honesty would burst that bubble and shock them to reality.

Then there is the sense of rejection. It is a very real slap to many American women's inflated egos for you choose sex with a pro paying money than sex with them for 'free'.

[DJ FourMoney]

I disagree.

Yes, I think that an unattractive American woman finds it easy to pick up. I'll put it this way, given the same level of attractiveness, a woman will find it easier to get sex for free than a man.

You can talk about edge cases all you like, but honestly, if we're trying to make generalizations, we're not talking about the 300 lb. Double amputee here. We're talking about the average American man/woman. By average, I mean that on a scale of 1-10, they're going to be rated around 4-8, which is what the vast majority of Americans fall under. Yeah, if your weight class puts you in the 98th percentile, you're going to have a different experience, but to try and apply that experience as being relevant to Americans in general is simply inaccurate.

For the average American woman, getting sex for free is easy. Getting sex for free from a man who is also of average attractiveness is easy. In fact, if you're offering it for free, getting sex from a man who is more attractive isn't that hard either.

Part of it is that a man is generally willing to have sex with a woman they're dating with ASAP. The woman's willingness is generally the limiting factor. I have yet to meet a man who's ever said anything resembling "man, this girl I went out with last night really wanted to get into my pants, but I think we should wait until at least the 3rd date. "

Couple this with many (but not all) women expecting the man in such a setting to pay for food, drinks, etc., and suddenly the man is in effect paying for sex in those situations. So, no, if a the average guy "really wanted sex", he would not ask out the 40 year old mother of 5. Instead, he'd spend $150 to bang the hot Asian massage girl around the corner. It's probably cheaper.

The only place where girls have it tough is the fact that girls are not considered more attractive with age, while men are (to a point). However, the fact that American women age so poorly is largely their own fault. If they stayed out of the god damn tanning salons and put on some sunscreen, they wouldn't look like a prune at 40.

I totally agree Oaktree...

I love using my life as an example because I know I'm not alone in my position. I work in a place that doesn't lend itself to meeting women. Women come into my store looking for items they need or were told they needed by somebody else. They are not looking to get picked up on, intimidation is a factor here.

Couple that with a sorry selection of female co-workers and you have a recipe for almost non-existent sex life.

Sure I could go out, but really; I don't drink and I don't really run around in social circles that opens itself up to targets.

Okay my case might seem a bit extreme, but the reality is still the same. Unless I run around dating web sites looking for, let's be honest desperate late 30's, early 40somethings and single mothers who are the MAJORITY that contact ME on these web sites, I don't get laid.

I was contacted by a 42 year old woman that was divorced and had to return from Hawaii to care for her ailing parents. Now is this a situation you REALLY want to be involved in? I would think twice about it if she was more than average looking and he weight was under control.

Strike 1 - She is 40+ and looks 40+

Strike 2 - She's not 100% focused on something positive, sick parents is about as negative a situation as you can have

Strike 3 - She's not cute, hot, fine, anything special

Breech of Contract - She lives in Ojai some 40+ miles from here...

So yes Nursey I can get LAID if I REALLY wanted too. But the choices are horrible. If my status was slightly different, the only thing that would change is maybe the frequency of when I go on a date which is currently about once every few years.

I get most of my foundation building done online, for me a proven technique I rather stick to than going the traditional route which has been nothing but a source of constant frustration.

[Dickhead]

"By average, I mean that on a scale of 1-10, they're going to be rated around 4-8"

8 no. Your math is screwed up. 7. But Happy Holidays anyway.

[Dickhead]

"but really; I don't drink"

Finally the true problem reveals itself.

"I was contacted by a 42 year old woman that was divorced and had to return from Hawaii to care for her ailing parents. Now is this a situation you REALLY want to be involved in?"

Perhaps, if the ailing parents are very wealthy and very ailing. You are not thinking creatively enough.

[DJ FourMoney]

"but really; I don't drink"

Finally the true problem reveals itself.

"I was contacted by a 42 year old woman that was divorced and had to return from Hawaii to care for her ailing parents. Now is this a situation you REALLY want to be involved in?"

Perhaps, if the ailing parents are very wealthy and very ailing. You are not thinking creatively enough.

What problem is that? LOL

Maybe I'm not being creative, I just don't seem to think in those terms, maybe I should?

[Oaktree]

"By average, I mean that on a scale of 1-10, they're going to be rated around 4-8"

8 no. Your math is screwed up. 7. But Happy Holidays anyway.No, actually my math isn't screwed up. If people were to rate other people's attractiveness on a scale of 1-10, you wouldn't end up with a perfect bell curve with 5. 5 being the midpoint. Remember that site, hotornot. Com? Have you ever looked at the statistical data from that site? You have a spike of 1's, because a lot of people just lumped all the really ugly people as 1's, then there's a gap where almost no one is rated 2 or 3, then a bell curve with 7-ish being the midpoint.

I'm not talking about a taking the American population and dividing them up into a perfect bell curve, I'm talking about people's opinion on the attractiveness of people they meet, so you can't assume 5. 5 as the midpoint.

[Dickhead]

No, actually my math isn't screwed up. If people were to rate other people's attractiveness on a scale of 1-10, you wouldn't end up with a perfect bell curve with 5. 5 being the midpoint. Remember that site, hotornot. Com? Have you ever looked at the statistical data from that site? You have a spike of 1's, because a lot of people just lumped all the really ugly people as 1's, then there's a gap where almost no one is rated 2 or 3, then a bell curve with 7-ish being the midpoint.

I'm not talking about a taking the American population and dividing them up into a perfect bell curve, I'm talking about people's opinion on the attractiveness of people they meet, so you can't assume 5. 5 as the midpoint.

The math is still specious, whether it is your math or that website's math. Those people just don't understand how to grade women, is all. Now I am not saying it is a bell curve or a normal distribution (mesokurtotic). One person's system might be deciles, where an equal number of 1s, 2s, through 10s are awarded. Then the mean is still 5.5. This would be an extreme example of a platykurtotic distribution (negative kurtosis).

Or there could be a lot of reversion to the mean, a leptokurtotic distribution where far more 5s and 6s are awarded and far fewer 1s and 10s. Mean is still 5.5. This is positive kurtosis.

Anything else is just plain grade inflation!

[Oaktree]

Anything else is just plain grade inflation!Uh, no, the mean is the average of a set of scores, not the average of the scale used by those scores.

Besides, even without having to address this failure of math, not everyone's scale puts what's "average" at 5 1/2. Look at schools, for example, C is average. C is also 70-79. Not every system of rating requires "average" be in the middle of the scale.

[Dickhead]

Kurtosis is a measure of how peaked a distribution is, as compared to a normal distribution, or "Bell curve." The Bell curve is a theoretical ideal that is seldom seen in practive. Take as an example stock market returns. The maximum return per period is infinity and the minimum return is -100%. Therefore returns cannot be normally distributed since the X axis is truncated at -100%. Hence these returns are lognormally distributed.

Now hookers' performances could, indeed, be normally distributed. This would imply an X axis ranging from "the worst ever" to "the best ever." And, in theory, any given experience with a hooker could be far, far worse than your previous worst experience. In theory, any experience could be far, far better. So the X axis ranges from negative infinity to infinity, a necessary condition for a normal distribution (although the data can be mathematically transformed to in many instances to create this type of distribution where it would not otherwise exist).

So then we must ask: Is hooker performance platykurtotic or leptokurtotic? If a large percentage of our hooker experiences are basically average, with very few mind-blowers or extreme duds, then the performance exhibits a lot of mean reversion and will tend to be leptokurtotic. I would argue it is platykurtotic because hooker perfomance tends, in my experience, to be all over the map.

Now it could come to pass that as you continue to see the same hooker over and over again, her performance becomes more leptokurtotic and less platykurtotic as it reverts to the mean.

[George90]

Kurtosis is a measure of how peaked a distribution is, as compared to a normal distribution, or "Bell curve." The Bell curve is a theoretical ideal that is seldom seen in practive. Take as an example stock market returns. The maximum return per period is infinity and the minimum return is -100%. Therefore returns cannot be normally distributed since the X axis is truncated at -100%. Hence these returns are lognormally distributed.

Now hookers' performances could, indeed, be normally distributed. This would imply an X axis ranging from "the worst ever" to "the best ever." And, in theory, any given experience with a hooker could be far, far worse than your previous worst experience. In theory, any experience could be far, far better. So the X axis ranges from negative infinity to infinity, a necessary condition for a normal distribution (although the data can be mathematically transformed to in many instances to create this type of distribution where it would not otherwise exist).

So then we must ask: Is hooker performance platykurtotic or leptokurtotic? If a large percentage of our hooker experiences are basically average, with very few mind-blowers or extreme duds, then the performance exhibits a lot of mean reversion and will tend to be leptokurtotic. I would argue it is platykurtotic because hooker perfomance tends, in my experience, to be all over the map.

Now it could come to pass that as you continue to see the same hooker over and over again, her performance becomes more leptokurtotic and less platykurtotic as it reverts to the mean.

Now this is REALLY something! Statistics lessons in a mongering forum!!!!

I compliment you on your knowledge, DH. If you can discuss degree of kurtosis regarding the distribution of hooker ratings, why couldn't you also discuss the degree of skewness regarding the stock returns you mentioned? Not all lognormal distributions have the same shape or degree of skewness.

Any other mongerers with stats knowledge?

[Dickhead]

Well, I'm not gonna talk about the stock market but you could certainly argue that hooker performance or satisfaction is similarly lognormally distributed from -100% to + infinity if you do as I do and truncate the sessions that are not going well. Basically I will just put my clothes on and walk out in that situation, viewing the money I paid as a sunk cost. Therefore I have a fair amount of -100% (worthless) experiences. Now the occasional really mind-boggling experience pulls up the mean while leaving the median unaffected. Thus the positive semideviation is greater than the negative semideviation and the distribution is highly skewed.

OK?

[Oceanblue]

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment so please, ladies and gentlemen, do not take this the wrong way. I'm just curious to see how you would respond to those who condemn all forms of sex work :

Do you believe that separating sexual activity from personal relationships of caring and love is an enterprise hazardous to moral health and that in an ideal world prostitution should not exist ?

[Bango Cheito]

I think that "caring" and "love" are wishful thinking at best in the vast majority of situations.

The more and more I date a vast variety of all women of all ages here, the more I realize the ones I click best with are sex workers. I'm starting to absolutely HATE the whole routine the majority of people on Earth take for granted, that in which you are supposed to jump through some whole series of flaming hoops in order to get sex. I think THAT is what's unnatural and leads to the decay of society more than anything else.

I actually think the human race ONLY has a chance to survive if we leave the old traditional structures of love and marriage severely alone.

[ThatGuy865]

Do you believe that separating sexual activity from personal relationships of caring and love is an enterprise hazardous to moral health and that in an ideal world prostitution should not exist ?I think guys who are 100% mongers only, are a very small minority in society. That most men want to possess woman and have a real problem separating sex and emotions. There are using only 2 things a guy will fight/kill over, thats money and woman. How many guys work (all their lives/or hard) to own things (a car, nice clothes, house) just to impress a woman. Do you think after he's gone through all that and he finds one he really likes, he wants to share her with another guy. NO freakin way.

Even a lot of self professed mongers, when they encounter a P4P worker who is not only good in bed, but fun to be around will try to take that women off the market, to make her his woman. Also why do so many seek the GFE and not just great sex. But no, they seek the woman who will hold and caress them like a GF would, they want the woman to act like she cares/really into the guy.

I believe that is a more natural part of human nature than to say one can have sex and total remove all emotion from it. Men ruled the world for so many thousands of years. And throughout the entire time. While prostitution may have been accepted in different societies. Prostitutes themselves have always been looked down upon. By men and women. Why is that if Men made the rules and they naturally would not mind have sex and moving on. They would think these women were cool. But they didn't. They have always been despised. JMHO

[Oceanblue]

I sympathize with that viewpoint, BC.

Thanks

[Oceanblue]

I think guys who are 100% mongers only, are a very small minority in society. That most men want to possess woman and have a real problem separating sex and emotions. There are using only 2 things a guy will fight/kill over, thats money and woman. How many guys work (all their lives/or hard) to own things (a car, nice clothes, house) just to impress a woman. Do you think after he's gone through all that and he finds one he really likes, he wants to share her with another guy. NO freakin way.

Even a lot of self professed mongers, when they encounter a P4P worker who is not only good in bed, but fun to be around will try to take that women off the market, to make her his woman. Also why do so many seek the GFE and not just great sex. But no, they seek the woman who will hold and caress them like a GF would, they want the woman to act like she cares/really into the guy.

I believe that is a more natural part of human nature than to say one can have sex and total remove all emotion from it. Men ruled the world for so many thousands of years. And throughout the entire time. While prostitution may have been accepted in different societies. Prostitutes themselves have always been looked down upon. By men and women. Why is that if Men made the rules and they naturally would not mind have sex and moving on. They would think these women were cool. But they didn't. They have always been despised. JMHOThank TG, but I don't agree with you.

First of all, for me, the whole sex response cycle. Desire, excitement, orgasm. Is not at all enhanced by whether or not I feel affection for the person. This is something that has always baffled me. The greatest enhancer of libido and sexual desire is to simply abstain for many months from ALL sex and masturbation. Remaining celibate basically for a long period. Then come back and tell me that 'love' has anything to do with sex.

Engaging in sexual behavior is not much different from drinking alcohol, taking recreational drugs or even engaging in a favorite hobby. (Just on a completely higher pleasure level obviously). We are mammals and we are inherently influenced by CHEMICAL impulses within the brain whether consuming drugs, having sex or even caring for the disabled.

What I find very strange is that the most people rationally understand this for most activities. Whether they can explain it or not. But for some reason when it comes to sex, everyone looses all sense of rationality and reverts to silly ideological extremes of 'good' and 'bad'.

[Oceanblue]

And anyway, sex is always an inherently selfish act we desire in order to release chemicals in the brain which make us feel better. The notion of a "loving expression within a committed relationship" is a complete absurdity passed down through the eons from those attempting to interpret nature in a way so it complies with their religious doctrines

[Westy]

i'm just curious to see how you would respond to those who condemn all forms of sex work: do you believe that separating sexual activity from personal relationships of caring and love is an enterprise hazardous to moral health and that in an ideal world prostitution should not exist?i've spent most of my life with "sexual activity (separated) from personal relationships of caring and love, " in such a fashion that sexual activity (other than solo) has been excessively rare in my life. my mother raised me as a single parent; when i gained adulthood (through a teenagehood in which i was scorned by my peers), i stayed home and added my salary to the household. when mom retired, with damn little but social security as a pension, i had enough of a salary to buy & mortgage the house where we lived together until she died. i did have a total of four romantic relationships in that life, each of which lasted a few months; but the ladies quite understandably dropped me because i let mom's well-being and happiness come first. mom passed on when i was forty-eight years old, and by that time i hadn't so much as been kissed by an eligible young lady for 18 years.

a couple of years after that sad day, i was sent to paraguay to teach a cartography course at their mapping agency, and a colleague and good friend of mine introduced me to a couple of young ladies who introduced me back to sex. sadly, on my return to the usa i left "sex" back in asuncion. i have been back to visit a couple of times, and it's wonderful while it lasts; but i'm not in a position to move down there, not yet.

i have one "close family tie" remaining in the usa. my mother's sister, who is in pretty good condition for 89 years old. i have enough "love and caring" for her that i won't leave for "paradise" until she's dead and gone, too. my last trip down to south america was in early 2007, and my only "lover" here in sex prison is dear little rosie palms.

what does that say of my "moral health"? conversely, what does it say about my self-esteem and happiness? in an "ideal world, " love and sexual fulfillment would keep close company, perhaps; but they don't, not here, and so i'm ready to fly 6000 miles for a few nights with some girls who will, at least, get economic fulfillment out of me. if it weren't for sex workers and sex work, i wouldn't get any sex at all. and i'm so damned alone.

oceanblue, that may not have been the answer you were expecting. but i hope you found it an interesting and maybe useful "data point. "

cheers,

westy

[Uncle Wayne]

from a guy who's really been around, i just have to say that whether prostitution is moral or not really just depends on how you treat the encounter. i do most of my mongering in asia where the girls are known to be submissive and will do anything to please you. there's a lot of potential for abuse, and trust me, quite a few guys do abuse it.

it is my belief that the act of prostitution in itself is not immoral. you are selling a service. some girls are intelligent and sell their brains to a company for money. others are physically attractive and sell their bodies to men for money. it's a service. you're taking what you're given and selling it for a living. isn't that we all do to put food on the table, clothes on our back, and a roof over our heads?

how is a girl who sells her breasts, legs, pussy, and whatever else any different than the male laborer who sells his muscles to build a dam or excavate a mine? and is accepting an unattractive stranger inside your body any more disgusting than cleaning a septic tank? you think that lovely receptionist who puts up with all your idiotic crap is any more real than the working girl who's making you think you have the best grade a loins on the market? not necessarily.

prostitution's a job, and just like any other job it has it's ups and downs. it's an honest living. they're not lying to you, stealing from you, cheating on you, or anything else. they let you know straight up that they're only interested in your money and what they're willing to do to get it. and afterwards you each part ways, happy with the win-win situation.

prostitution is a perfect model of how business should be done. in fact, it's a model for how all relationships and in this world should be. but sadly, it's not. inevitably, we've all had experiences with girls who lie to us, lead us on, make us think they want something more, and so we take them out, buy them drinks, dinner, listen to those mind-numbing stories about her love for dafodils and her cat with emphysema, put up with all her emotional shit, and just when you think you've got your foot in the door, she blows you off for someone she's been craving all along.

bullshit. an all-night threesome with lesbian swimsuit models from sweden would have cost you less. and you won't be going home with blue balls and a raging hard on that won't go out for a week.

in short, prostitution is moral. the question is, are the people involves moral? usually this burden falls on the client. in a lot of people's minds, they think less of working girls, viewing them as sub-par to some degree, despite how much they enjoy their services. the same people think that just because they're paying for these services, then they own the girl for that period of time. these are the people who disrespect the working girls, call them derogatory names, force unwanted sexual acts on them (yes, it's possible to [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) a prostitute), and like to see the girls in pain because they think the girls deserve it and should work hard for their money.

not true. like any other service you pay for, be it at a restaurant, the mechnanic, dry cleaning, or whatever, everyone involved are equals. you shouldn't think of them as less for providing a service that you yourself won't do; or can't do, in most cases. yes, you are paying them for a service, so you have a right to negotiate your demands and make sure the service you're receiving is satisfactory, but like any business transaction, there should be respect both ways.

of course, the girls have obligations too. is she trying to cheat you out of your money with hidden fees that suddenly pop up after you've had your fun and are surrounded by 3 other gang members? is she working even though she knows she has an std? are you?

again, the act of prostitution itself is moral, but the people involves may or may not be.

just my two cents.

[Westy]

Elegantly put, Uncle Wayne. And IMHO, you nailed it.

I am nowhere near as experienced with prostitution as most of you on this board, but "this fool" can plainly see it's a tough way to make a living. (How would I like to "get it up" for a woman who's thirty years older than me, and 50 pounds overweight?) I can't see any benefit for myself in making her job any tougher, any more unpleasant; or for acting like she's "immoral" for giving me a service that I'm paying her to give me.

Why would I treat "Conchita" any worse than I'd treat the girl at my dentist's office who polishes my teeth (for about the same price as I'm paying "Conchita" for polishing my knob)? Or the girl at the peluqueria who cuts my hair? Or a cashier, or a bank clerk, or a receptionist? I'm going to treat any of these people cordially. Why would I treat a woman who's going to give me the most intimate of personal services with any less cordiality?

This isn't to say that I don't want my money's worth. If I pay for an hour, I want my full sixty minutes. Even if we spend some of it in snuggle-and-chat mode, until Mr. Toad rises up for a second helping. But that's moral, too.

And I would rather leave her thinking, "It was a pleasure doing business with him! "

[The Departed]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Have a giggle with this and its attachment. I wonder how much this "research" cost. Since my last posting, I have been to Trabzon, with the Natashas and to Istanbul and its charming gypsies. I wonder would they pay for our research.

[ThatGuy865]

Engaging in sexual behavior is not much different from drinking alcohol, taking recreational drugs or even engaging in a favorite hobby. (Just on a completely higher pleasure level obviously). We are mammals and we are inherently influenced by CHEMICAL impulses within the brain whether consuming drugs, having sex or even caring for the disabled.

What I find very strange is that the most people rationally understand this for most activities. Whether they can explain it or not.OB. I believe you are right about the chemical impulses and those chemical impulses INCREASE even stronger when you care for the person you are with, compared to the level they would be for just a sex thing. So emotions do play a part of it.

Thats why people have uncontrollable jealous fits of rage when under normal circumstances they are rational people. Because emotions trigger those chemical impulses stronger than just physical triggered impulses.

[Bango Cheito]

TG, I actually think the whole jealous thing is the most UN-natural impulse we have. I don't think it's innate at all, I think it's a product of the fucked up socieites in which we live.

I used to be jealous but no longer have a jealous bone in my body. The NATURAL thing humans do is SHARE EACH OTHER. In short I think we are all born bisexual and polyamorous but our environment literally kicks it out of us, interferes with our natural sexual response. If monogamy were so natural why are 98% of human spermatozoa designed to KILL OTHER SPERM and are INCAPABLE OF IMPREGNATING THE OVUM?

Perhaps in a world where we got back to the way we are supposed to be sexually, prostitution wouldn't need to exist because we'd all be in touch with our inner *****s. For now, as far as I'm concerned THEY ARE LIGHTING THE WAY FOR THE REST OF US!!!

[ThatGuy865]

TG, I actually think the whole jealous thing is the most UN-natural impulse we have. I don't think it's innate at all, I think it's a product of the fucked up socieites in which we live.

I used to be jealous but no longer have a jealous bone in my body. The NATURAL thing humans do is SHARE EACH OTHER. In short I think we are all born bisexual and polyamorous but our environment literally kicks it out of us, interferes with our natural sexual response. If monogamy were so natural why are 98% of human spermatozoa designed to KILL OTHER SPERM and are INCAPABLE OF IMPREGNATING THE OVUM?

Perhaps in a world where we got back to the way we are supposed to be sexually, prostitution wouldn't need to exist because we'd all be in touch with our inner *****s. For now, as far as I'm concerned THEY ARE LIGHTING THE WAY FOR THE REST OF US!Well history begs to differ with you. Men have killed, started wars. All in the name of jealousy. There are men who will kill for their women. And that is not learned. Little kids show signs of jealousy. Its not learned but a natural reactions in humans. While sharing is more of a learned thing. You have to teach a child to sharing, a child will naturally be jealous of another kids toy or anything. Even babys, give one something and not the other and watch the one without cry, even if he was just satisfied 1 minute ago.

If what you say were true. There would be a society somewhere where sharing women was a way of life. I don't think you can name one. Even the most primitive natives found. Do not share women and may not have a formal ceremony. But they have monogomous relations. So why is that.

[Rubber Nursey]

do you believe that separating sexual activity from personal relationships of caring and love is an enterprise hazardous to moral health and that in an ideal world prostitution should not exist ?
for the second part of your question, my answer is a resounding 'no'. i know lots of people believe that if society celebrated sexuality, abandoned organised religion, deprioritised monogamy, etc, prostitution would no longer exist. i don't believe that's true and i, for one, would hate to see it happen.

a commercial sex service is more than just sex. it's sex on demand, with no hunting/dating/flirting ground work required. it's sex with someone who may be totally out of your league in the 'real world'. it's sex that's completely anonymous and discreet. is sex with little or no physical and emotional consequences; no pregnancy, no jealousy, no domestic drudgery, no mistress threatening to call your wife. it's sex tailored exactly to your particular specifications.

even in a 'perfect world', where everyone engaged in free love and had multiple partners, there would still be a need for all those things. people who aren't conventionally attractive, or are disabled, or have time-consuming careers, for example, could still find it difficult to hook up. people with particular fetishes or kinks could still have a hard time finding a compatible partner. jealousy and possessiveness, or one partner suddenly wanting more, can still occur in casual 'fuck buddy' situations. language barriers would still make things difficult for travellers.

even in the most liberal of societies, you can't simply walk up to a stranger and say "i want you to give me a half-hour blowjob and then i'm going to bend you over the table and fuck you up the arse, while wearing heels and women's lingerie, maybe with a bit of spanking or bondage as well, and then i want you to fuck off and never darken my doorstep again. meet me at my place about 8pm?" but you can say it to a hooker. wh*res will always have their place, even in an 'ideal world'.

as for the first part of your question, i don't believe sex work necessarily does "separate sexual activity from personal relationships of caring and love". not all sex work, anyway. hookers and clients can develop really strong bonds over time, some seeing each other regularly for years. their friendships (and sometimes, love and/or affection) are just as real as regular friendships. there can also be real intimacy involved, even with clients you only ever see once. spend a whole night with a client who pours his heart and soul out to you and it's pretty hard to walk away not feeling something for each other. even a client that bends you over the bed for ten minutes can smile and blush afterwards and make you feel like you've done something nice for someone else. lots of sex workers, myself included, view their job as a 'helping' or 'caring' profession, just like nurses or masseuses or therapists. i can have sex without love, but that doesn't mean there's no emotional connection or genuine affection involved at all.

[Rubber Nursey]

Uncle Wayne,

That post was brilliant. Beautiful, wonderful, eloquent, brilliant. Words fail me. Thank you. :)

[Mtraveller]

reading by unlce wayne's and rubber nurse's posts i feel inspired to present my own little stories shedding a some light on the girls perpective. those stories might not be representative but still the are reality.

we accept it for granted that men who monger (including me of course) quite often do so for lack of social skill and social opportunity with women. over the years i noticed though that many of the working girls also have or had difficulties with relationships predating their choice to start meeting men for money. to extend on rubber nurse argument: (even) in a perfect world, selling themselves would be a way for women to have sex without remorse and without the limitations incurred on them by a relationship. from my experience: i spent quite enjoyable nights with single mothers, whom i would not have dared to touch for fear of relationship troubles had i met them in a bar.

some years back, at the beginning of my mongering career i had an enlightening experience with an italian lady in an fkk in frankfurt. after i recruited her into the privacy of the room, making out, complimenting, she smiling on my shyness, it turned out i misjudged her age. turned out she was older then me (35 versus 33 at the time). she felt so proud that a younger guy had picked her, that the ice was broken and things got quite passionate and personal in the 2 hours to follow. i learned that she was raising a 9 year old boy as a single mother, running two irregular jobs to somehow fit the kids requirements with making some money. no time for relationships.
looking back my impression is that she actually went to the brothel not only to add the extra euro to the purse but although to enjoy the luxury of having sex, something hard to come buy for a single mother in her position.

a year back i met another single mother. a chinese woman in her mid thirties with little experience as a working girl. from the way she f***ed, i suppose she did not have much opportunity for good sex for a few years. fortunately she had not forgotten. i do not want to indulge into the details of what ensued. anyway we let our emotions run freely for 10 wonderful days. i acted as a gentleman, paid her more then she expected and it still felt more like a gift then a price paid. when i had to leave she looked so sad.
within the usual boundaries of social expectations i cannot image being able to enjoy the emotion of falling in love so unconstrained and so quickly. and for her it is the same. back home a single mother in her age is off limits unless she is willing to sell herself into an potentially very unhappy marriage with a much older man.

my most recent encounter though has been crossing the border between mongering and a permanent affair. having brushed up my mandarin i met a 20 year old chinese girl (you can tell by now that i'm old enough to be her father) in another far away country under the usual circumstances. things turned the way they shouldn't. the young lonely girl, thinking of herself as no pretty, shy, never had a boyfriend, fell in love with the older man and triggered the [CodeWord901] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord901) reflex. fate was fiendishly fortunate and allowed us to spent several months together. actually she never had much chance to get much experience as a working girl before i met her.
now the emotional bond runs deep and even distance and a few months passed cannot severe it quickly. she is to young to know how to handle lost love. too socially isolated to dive back into a happy live home in beijing. for her i look like a once in a lifetime chance for love, but she cannot bind me because i have a personal life back home. the end of this story is not yet written and might turn out unhappy or sad.

well its late now. i have to finish. those encounters are not representative of my mongering experiences, which by and large go along the normal lines. but they show that the women selling us happiness for a few hours are as emotional as the ones we meet under more normal circumstances. for me asking whether prostitution is moral is quite a meaningless question. could as well ask if "romantic love" and marriage are moral.

[Bango Cheito]

Well history begs to differ with you. Men have killed, started wars. All in the name of jealousy. There are men who will kill for their women. And that is not learned. Little kids show signs of jealousy. Its not learned but a natural reactions in humans. While sharing is more of a learned thing. You have to teach a child to sharing, a child will naturally be jealous of another kids toy or anything. Even babys, give one something and not the other and watch the one without cry, even if he was just satisfied 1 minute ago.

If what you say were true. There would be a society somewhere where sharing women was a way of life. I don't think you can name one. Even the most primitive natives found. Do not share women and may not have a formal ceremony. But they have monogomous relations. So why is that.

Dude, you need to read more. History is FULL of examples of civilizations where women (and men at times) are shared. Tahiti (before the Brits fucked it up=, the Arawak nation (before the Spanish fucked it up), the Inuit (before the Canadians fucked it up) and ancient Sparta are four good examples right off the top of my head. Monogamy as we know it didn't even exist for a LONG time in the history of civilization. It didn't exist at ALL in ANY Neolithic or Paleolithic societies, furthermore.

Your baby argument is even more reason in my mind why we should share each other more :P

[Bango Cheito]

I'm actually beginning to think more and more I just can't ever have a real relationship with a "normal" girl. I don't have the patience to deal with all the emotional bullshit and the LACK of transparency that goes along with it.

All the girls I have REALLY clicked with over the past several months since splitting up with my (working girl) wife, have ALL been sex workers of some type or other, prostitutes and/or videochat girls. They seem to be the ONLY girls in my environment really capable of putting all the cards on the table in good faith.

[Rubber Nursey]

To extend on Rubber Nurse argument: (even) in a perfect world, selling themselves would be a way for women to have sex without remorse and without the limitations incurred on them by a relationship. I spent quite enjoyable nights with single mothers, whom I would not have dared to touch for fear of relationship troubles had I met them in a bar. <snip> Looking back my impression is that she actually went to the brothel not only to add the extra Euro to the purse but although to enjoy the luxury of having sex, something hard to come buy for a single mother in her position.
Excellent points, Mtraveller. As a single parent, sex work allowed me to have a pretty fabulous social life and sex life, without the dramas involved with dating and introducing a new person into my little family. A lot of men b*tch about the complications involved with dating single mothers, but it's no bed of roses on OUR end, either! Sex work gave me all of the benefits of a relationship, without any of the negatives.

Your 'sex without remorse' comment was interesting, as well. I loved hooking for all the same reasons that men on this forum give for mongering. I love its simplicity and its honesty. I love that it strips sex back to the bare basics, separated from the love and mindgames and insecurities and petty jealousies that normally accompany it. I love that it also strips PEOPLE bare, levelling the playing field between young and old, rich and poor, handsome and ordinary, fit and disabled, high class and low. And I loved that my passions and desires and kinks and curiosities were, if not necessarily 'respected', at least validated and accepted by my clients and workmates. Like many woman brought up in a society that tells us "chastity=good, promiscuity=evil", I found sex work incredibly liberating and relished the opportunity to enjoy sex without guilt or shame.

[Warbucks]

http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanBangkokWeeklyColumn2010/ThailandProstitutionMorality.htm


Stickman Weekly 24/1/2010

Stick Leaps Into The Morality Debate Ring

This week's opening piece is a departure from the usual. Typically I open with my thoughts, opinions or experiences. Seldom do I respond to what is happening in the news and as best I can remember, never have I responded to discussion on another part of this site. A debate has been raging in the readers' submissions section over the morality of *****mongering and the very existence of the bar industry in Thailand. The heavyweights have weighed in with essays from the likes of Sawadee2000, Marc Holt, Korski and Caveman. Things have got heated, spicy emails have been traded and I just could not sit on the sideline any longer. I think it's always been obvious that despite covering the comings and goings in the industry I have never been entirely in favour of it. Today I come out and tell you what I really think. My thoughts can be read as a stand alone piece.

The sector of Thailand's commercial sex industry for foreigners is a major blight on the country's image. The women lured into it often leave in a much worse situation than when they entered. If the industry was shut down, Thailand would be better off. I firmly believe these three statements to be absolutely true!

While other writers have discussed the so-called morality of the industry, I prefer to look at the effects it has on the people involved and to a lesser extent, the country. I'm also going to look at the arguments that have been made in favour of the industry and refute each and every one of them.

Many Westerners live for it. *****mongering in Thailand is addictive, fun, perhaps even thrilling. But do these mongers ever consider what it is like for the girls who work in the industry? Do they even know what brought the women there in the first place?

Most women enter the industry because they have money problems. They hear grossly exaggerated stories of girls who entered the industry, supposedly made a fortune or perhaps met a Western man who was prepared to look after them. Most plan to get in and out as fast as they can, hoping that their situation will improve, their financial burdens removed.

They want to get in and out of the industry quickly yet few do. They may not have the skills to realise their hopes or the necessary drive, or the conditions they get caught up in make it difficult. Demands from the family who know she is on the farang gravy train often mean she just can't save that much.

Boss Hogg tells a good story of a girl who used to work for him who saved up almost 400,000 baht, only to receive the phone call from home. Maybe the buffalo had taken a turn or maybe a non-existent relative had been sent to a police station that doesn't exist. And money was urgently needed. Sure, for a daughter of Isaan who makes money in any job, the phone call could just as likely come. It's not coercion but an instructions. The daughter has to cough up the family tax.

Few girls leave the industry with a healthy bank account. Earnings are so often wasted on gambling, given to the local boyfriend or husband, spent on drugs or on hosting friends for a night out drinking.

The list of evils the girls suffer is widely known and there's no need to repeat it here. This could be somewhat mitigated if they came out of it financially better off. But seldom do they.

When I look at women who come into the industry and those who exit, the changes are massive. They enter the industry poor, with great hopes for the future and they often leave it poor. And physically, mentally and emotionally scarred.

Various arguments have been made to justify what seems to be the writers feel is their right to inexpensive young, hard-bodied pussy. Most are easily refuted if you really understand what happens in the industry.

The first and most common argument in favour of the industry is that liaisons are between two consenting adults of legal age which is, on the face of it, fair. That is until you start to understand all of the BS involved.

Girls employed in a bar are said to have a choice as to whether they go with a customer or not. The truth is that they have quotas to meet, and barfine quotas are usually 8. 10 a month. Fail to meet that and their salary is cut. They also have the evil mamasans to deal with who often coerce the girls to go with some heinous men, often because the customer had bought the mamasan a drink and she feels obliged to repay him. It's a fallacy to suggest that the girls have a choice. Effectively a girl has to go with any guy who walks through the door and wants her. He could be a reptile, or a whale, or have hygiene issues. She has little choice.

Another common argument in favour of the industry is that other types of work would be much worse. The alternative is factory work. It's a hard grind, long hours and minimum wage. With overtime a monthly salary approaching 10,000 baht is possible. It's a hard grind in not particularly comfortable conditions.

There are in fact many benefits to this type of work. Put in the hours and there is a guaranteed income, something which many of the older, less attractive women in the bar industry in Pattaya don't have. This type of work can lead to better paying positions, a more stable work life and none of the damage that comes with time in the bar industry.

The argument that makes me laugh loudest is the purported positive effects sex tourism has on the economy. It is falsely asserted that the sex tourism industry is so big that the industry's closure would bring the tourism industry, and with it the entire Thai economy, to its knees. Some suggest that they are doing the girls, their family and in fact the whole country a favour, arguing that billions of baht makes its way to where it is most needed. Sure, some money does make its way to the countryside where it is much needed, but even the highest earners seldom send more than 5,000 baht a month home.

The industry is big, but not that big. Take the lift to the observation level of Baiyoke 2 Tower for the best views of Bangkok. Look around this bustling metropolis of some 12 odd million people. Can you see the tiny lane that is Soi Cowboy, or the small shopping centre of Nana Plaza? You can't because they're tiny! You can see the monstrosities of Siam Paragon, MBK and many of the city's major shopping centres. The Grand Palace, which probably gets more visitors in a day than Nana Plaza gets in a month, is easy to spot. The farang sector of the sex industry can't be seen from the city's vantage point. Because it's tiny! Do you still think sex tourism is important in economic terms?

But what about Pattaya, you argue. Without sex tourism it would be a ghost town. A few years ago you would have been right, but with Russians making up ever larger numbers and more and more Indian and Chinese visitors flocking to Sin City for reasons other than the nightlife, Pattaya would simply reinvent itself if the bar industry was shut down. More Eastern Europeans, more Chinese and more Indians. That's exactly who the Tourism Authority has been targeting. And 95% of them wouldn't miss the industry at all.

It's laughable that some argue a benefit of the industry is that the girls improve their English. There isn't any on the job training and with the exception of English language skills. Often idiomatic and full of slang. Few skills are developed in the bar industry. Good English will always help a Thai woman searching for employment in Thailand but the sad fact is that any job that requires English will almost certainly require to her have at least a bachelor's degree. So while English is useful, it is redundant without proof of higher education. And just where is she going to say she learned?!

I never have and never would live on Sukhumvit. The industry is in your face and that of everyone passing by. Many parts of the capital's premier boulevard have become a cesspit in recent years, a direct result of the industry being forced out on to the streets. Neither would I want to live anywhere in Pattaya.

It's made all the worse by the stereotype of the Western sex tourist. Uncultured, boorish, ignoble and lascivious, the sight of rotund and / or appallingly dressed visitors propositioning women in public is crass.

The smiles are an act, the girlfriend experience an illusion. I don't doubt that it makes many men very happy and that is nice. But please, don't think she is necessarily enjoying it. It's a job! Talking with these girls in their own tongue, when they realise that you're not going to be a customer she has nothing to lose by being honest with you. She knows that you're not going to judge her because you've already demonstrated that you know how the industry works. Oftentimes the release valve pops and she falls into your arms, tears streaming down her face, and she tells you what it's really like.

Most of the girls do not want to be there. The whole idea was to get in and get out. In a much better position than when they entered. They get abused sexually, abused mentally and they cannot act or pretend forever.

I have found some views in the ongoing debate to be highly distasteful and utterly ignorant. Many have not even tried to understand the girls' situation or what they go through. It seems to me that many consider it their right to avail themselves of young women at minimum cost and bugger the consequences.

There is a very good argument that the commercial sex industry in Thailand that caters to foreigners be shut down. Sure, I enjoy watching scantily clad women dance and I enjoy flirting with them. I enjoy meeting friends in the bars with lovely ladies as a backdrop and I enjoy putting this column together and covering what's happening in the industry. But I would be just as happy to see the industry ended.

Angelwitch Bangkok manager and the self-titled "gogo guru", Dave The Rave, has been working in the industry since 1998 where he has a ringside view. Dave's words are short and sweet. "The industry destroys lives. " Who can argue with the one foreigner who has possibly spent more time in gogo bars than any other person on the planet over the last decade?!

If the girls are going to work in this industry, I hope they do as well as they possibly can. And for that to happen, they probably need to get out of Thailand. At least to maximise their earnings.

I have never received as much negative feedback as I did when I wrote several years back that the girls are better off working overseas. My argument was that Thai girls who worked overseas. And the two countries I gave as examples were England and Australia. Earned huge money, sums so great that they could not help but save large chunks of it. There are plenty of stories of Thai women returning from the UK with £100,000. £200,000, a fortune in rural Thailand, more than enough to buy a house, a vehicle and set up a business or just live the easy life. If you're going to do a job that damages you in many ways, you may as well maximise your earnings, right?

The reaction to that column was outrage! How dare I suggest the girls relocate overseas! The readership went into a frenzy and I was vilified, accused of promoting [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) and the exploitation of young Thai women, vitriolic hyperbole from the self-serving whose only concern was their God given right to cheap sex. If word got out and Thai women realised the princely sums they could make in the West, many would venture abroad.

Relatively small numbers ply their trade freelancing in Orchard Towers in Singapore, where over the course of a 14-day stay they can return to home with in excess of 100,000 baht. Back to Thailand, they deposit the money in the bank, come back on a new 14-day visa and the cycle repeats. Good on them! For all the crap they put up with, at least they're being fairly compensated.

I truly believe that those who avail themselves of all that the industry has to offer and attempt to justify their actions wouldn't accept it if the shoe on the other foot. A 30-year Thailand expat asserts that "it's just sex". Said fellow has two daughters who I am sure mean the world to him. I imagine he would be very protective of them as any good father would. Let's say that this 30-year expat falls on hard times. And his daughters somehow end up in the industry. While there, along comes a fellow called Ron Colt, a clean cut Westerner who doesn't drink, dresses well, speaks politely and is a small time businessman to boot. But like so many, this Ron character chooses, perhaps from time to time, perhaps habitually, to party without a party hat. He's brazen about it and tells the world. We can assume he has almost certainly not allowed the mandatory 3-month period between contact and a blood test. How would you feel if the Colt was nailing your daughter? He is not alone, but one of many.

Foreigners are not exclusively to blame for the ills of the industry, the damage it causes the girls and the horrible reputation Thailand has earned because of its thriving sex tourism industry. Complicit we may be, a major contributing factor most certainly, but it is the Thais themselves who must take the lion's share of the blame. They don't just allow it, they actively encourage foreigners to participate. It is those whose actions and greed allow the industry to flourish who must accept responsibility.

The primary reason I am not in favour of the industry is that the girls suffer and are inadequately compensated and / or they blow the money they make. If they knew how things would be, they wouldn't enter the industry in the first place. Most leave in much worse shape than when they first started. Poor, just as they were, but add to that physically, mentally and emotionally scarred.

Sure, there are those who make it. Some end up rich. Some score decent, hard-working, generous, loving foreign husbands. Some genuinely enjoy the life. They are the minority.

My perspective on the industry is complicated and contrarian. I would be happy to see it die while at the same time I write about it every week. I would rather a girl didn't enter the industry in the first place but if she does, I hope she makes as much money from it as she possibly can. And the best place to do that is in the West. And while I am not in favour of guys rampaging through Cowboy or Walking Street or <insert the name of any bar area , I hope that the guys who partake treat the girls with respect, pay them fairly, don't force them to do anything against their will and always use condoms.

The proportion of tourists who visit Thailand for the naughty stuff is lower than it used to be and much lower than many, particularly those who only know Sukhumvit and Walking Street, believe. Whether it will one day be outlawed, consumed by other more profitable ventures or slowly die a death cannot be predicted. That said, I cannot see the industry as we currently know it existing forever.

The damage to the girls, to Thai society and to the image of Thailand is massive. That's why, one day, the farang-dominated sector of the industry must end.

This is not a debate about morals, but simply about opening your eyes and seeing the industry for what it really is. It's about empathy and consideration and being honest about how it would be if the shoe was on the other foot.

It's too late for the two ladies pictured here. That's possibly one teacher and one nurse Thailand will never have. But their sisters still have a chance.

[Westy]

i am sorry to read this report from stickman weekly. part of my sorrow is, perhaps, petulance. part of it is compassionate remorse. but a large piece of it is indignation at being the target for stick's contempt, when i haven't even been to thailand.

my introduction to offshore mongering came after i turned 50, decades after i'd given up on "love and romance" in my homeland (the usa). i found my sexuality "resurrected" by a visit to a privado in paraguay, and i've managed a few more trips there (and to uruguay and argentina) since then. i found southern cone to be sweet indeed, but i am also attracted to asian women and have been tempted to visit thailand some day.

now here is this story from "the man on the beat" that, in effect, blames my fellow mongers for "a major blight on (thailand's) image. " that is, the mongers' market. i feel enjoined to be ashamed of wanting p4p, and i feel blamed in my own turn for visiting that evil on these poor, "innocent" girls.

okay, my nose has been rubbed in it good and hard and painfully. the land of smiles has no smile for the likes of me. selah. it is written.

but is there any compassion, in thailand or elsewhere, for the males of a culture that has wrenched maleness from their hands, as it's happened in the usa? for males who have been fired, blacklisted, even prosecuted for getting romantically interested in a female colleague; or their fellow male colleagues who get the story from management, and see the empty chair? for daddies who have been thrown out of their children's lives by a divorce court, but who must pay ruinously for having fathered the kids? for men who have seen and heard these horrors, have seen and heard the remarks of the feminazis that have taken over their workplace, and who have just plain given up on ever finding love or romance or even a sweet stolen kiss?

i grew up being shamed-and-blamed because i was a boy in a household of women. i grew up seeing my mother and aunt going "out on the town, " friday and saturday nights, and hearing them come home and talk so contemptuously of the men who had "gotten fresh" with them. i was introduced to a very few of those men, and one or two of them might have been "a good daddy for me, " but no such thing ever happened. and when i grew up and got job enough to support myself, i brought my mother out of her mother's house to move in with me. for her sake, and the sake of all it had cost her to bring me up. she lived under my roof and my care until she died, leaving me still single, childless, and very very alone.

but i'd seen the contempt that american women have for men. i'd grown up with it, in the years before betty friedan and now. i'd seen it gather strength, harden, get teeth in the law, and i knew the modern american woman wanted nothing whatsoever to do with the likes of me.

what effects did that have on me? did it leave me coarsened, bitter, blunted emotionally? did it, perhaps, render me unfit to find love or romance in my home town, in my neighborhood, in my "village"? seems so to me.

so now, let's put this embittered, emotionally-blunted product of american feminaziism into a place where some relatively-young, relatively-pretty local girl makes her "willingness to play" evident to him. might this not be an epiphany to him? i remember the girl in the old puerto madera whiskeria, by the port of asuncion, who gave me the first "kiss as if she meant it" i'd experienced in nearly twenty years. she might remember me as the guy who fainted dead away in the middle of the dance floor!

but my story counts for nothing because i am a man. my pain counts for nothing because i am, by sexual construction, an exploiter and a [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126). my deserts are blame, shame and contempt.

enjoy your thailand, stickman. i won't sully its shores.

[Chocha Monger]

i am sorry to read this report from stickman weekly. part of my sorrow is, perhaps, petulance. part of it is compassionate remorse. but a large piece of it is indignation at being the target for stick's contempt, when i haven't even been to thailand.

my introduction to offshore mongering came after i turned 50, decades after i'd given up on "love and romance" in my homeland (the usa). i found my sexuality "resurrected" by a visit to a privado in paraguay, and i've managed a few more trips there (and to uruguay and argentina) since then. i found southern cone to be sweet indeed, but i am also attracted to asian women and have been tempted to visit thailand some day.

now here is this story from "the man on the beat" that, in effect, blames my fellow mongers for "a major blight on (thailand's) image. " that is, the mongers' market. i feel enjoined to be ashamed of wanting p4p, and i feel blamed in my own turn for visiting that evil on these poor, "innocent" girls.

okay, my nose has been rubbed in it good and hard and painfully. the land of smiles has no smile for the likes of me. selah. it is written.

but is there any compassion, in thailand or elsewhere, for the males of a culture that has wrenched maleness from their hands, as it's happened in the usa? for males who have been fired, blacklisted, even prosecuted for getting romantically interested in a female colleague; or their fellow male colleagues who get the story from management, and see the empty chair? for daddies who have been thrown out of their children's lives by a divorce court, but who must pay ruinously for having fathered the kids? for men who have seen and heard these horrors, have seen and heard the remarks of the feminazis that have taken over their workplace, and who have just plain given up on ever finding love or romance or even a sweet stolen kiss?

i grew up being shamed-and-blamed because i was a boy in a household of women. i grew up seeing my mother and aunt going "out on the town, " friday and saturday nights, and hearing them come home and talk so contemptuously of the men who had "gotten fresh" with them. i was introduced to a very few of those men, and one or two of them might have been "a good daddy for me, " but no such thing ever happened. and when i grew up and got job enough to support myself, i brought my mother out of her mother's house to move in with me. for her sake, and the sake of all it had cost her to bring me up. she lived under my roof and my care until she died, leaving me still single, childless, and very very alone.

but i'd seen the contempt that american women have for men. i'd grown up with it, in the years before betty friedan and now. i'd seen it gather strength, harden, get teeth in the law, and i knew the modern american woman wanted nothing whatsoever to do with the likes of me.

what effects did that have on me? did it leave me coarsened, bitter, blunted emotionally? did it, perhaps, render me unfit to find love or romance in my home town, in my neighborhood, in my "village"? seems so to me.

so now, let's put this embittered, emotionally-blunted product of american feminaziism into a place where some relatively-young, relatively-pretty local girl makes her "willingness to play" evident to him. might this not be an epiphany to him? i remember the girl in the old puerto madera whiskeria, by the port of asuncion, who gave me the first "kiss as if she meant it" i'd experienced in nearly twenty years. she might remember me as the guy who fainted dead away in the middle of the dance floor!

but my story counts for nothing because i am a man. my pain counts for nothing because i am, by sexual construction, an exploiter and a [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126). my deserts are blame, shame and contempt.

enjoy your thailand, stickman. i won't sully its shores.
westy:

we have often gone back and forth on whether or not mongering is moral or not. i think morality has a lot to do with what is convenient from the point of view of the moralist. soldiers face death and dismemberment in carrying out their duties. many poor young men join hoping to get money for college or job skills. a good number of them have ended up blown to pieces on foreign soil or with bloodied stumps where their arms and legs once were. yet, many anti-prostitution activists do not argue for the abolition of the armed forces. in fact, they live under the blanket of security that these men provide.

yes, it’s true. some mongers are nothing short of repulsive in appearance and behavior. the pictures with the original post depict the fat unwashed ugly face of sex tourism. i am sure that a lot of sensibilities would be upset in these men’s home countries upon seeing an old fat white 350 pounder leering at a little brown 90 lbs thai girl with prurient interests being quite obvious. it’s like watching an x-rated version of shrek going mongering. however, while the idea of these girls getting squashed by oversexed marine mammalians is distasteful, stick’s argument that the girls have to fuck these guys doesn’t hold water. they can choose to stay on the farms and age quickly under the burning sun in the rice paddies, or slave away in a textile sweatshop with one [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) break every 6 hours. factory work in thailand isn’t anything like what someone from a rich western country might encounter at home. the conditions are bad. workers suffer from musculoskeletal injuries from repetitive motion and extended periods in stressful postures. many end up with lung diseases from dust and chemical exposure. we would like to see the textile industry go away too. the truth of the matter is neither the sex industry or the sweatshops will go away until the country becomes wealthy enough that the price of sex or textiles become more than what westerners are willing to pay. in the end economics will curb the trade not morality.

[Rubber Nursey]

However, while the idea of these girls getting squashed by oversexed marine mammalians is distasteful, Stick’s argument that the girls have to fuck these guys doesn’t hold water. They can choose to stay on the farms and age quickly under the burning sun in the rice paddies, or slave away in a textile sweatshop with one [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) break every 6 hours. Factory work in Thailand isn’t anything like what someone from a rich Western country might encounter at home. The conditions are bad. Workers suffer from musculoskeletal injuries from repetitive motion and extended periods in stressful postures. Many end up with lung diseases from dust and chemical exposure (etc..)
I couldn't agree more. I get sooo very tired of hearing that ANYTHING is better than fucking for cash, even the awful jobs that most people would steer clear of. In many poorer countries, we have NGOs and women's groups calling for better education for girls, so they can get away from factory work ...and in those same places, other NGOs and women's groups are 'rescuing' sex workers from brothels and bars and putting them INTO factories!

A similar hypocrisy exists in my own state. People are being encouraged to quit their low-paying jobs and take advantage of our so-called 'mining boom'. Mine conditions are pretty crappy and some of the jobs are dangerous, but that's considered a reasonable 'sacrifice' to make in return for an above-average income. Meanwhile, anti-prostitution activists are trying to take $200/hour sex workers out of brothels and put them into $10/hour retail jobs.

As I've said before, I've worked with many women (and men) who have university degrees and formal qualifications. They could be working in other high-paid jobs, but they choose to do sex work. On the flip side, there are also many people who consider hooking to be the best option out of a handful of really shit choices. But in my country we have welfare payments and other govt-funded assistance, yet people still choose to enter the sex industry. I'm not saying that everyone WANTS to be a hooker - obviously for many it's a last resort, or they feel 'forced by circumstance' to do it - but that does NOT negate their ability to make an informed choice. (Just to clarify, I'm not talking about victims of violence, trafficking, etc. When choice is removed completely, it's no longer sex work...it's a crime).

As for Mr Stickman, he obviously has some serious internalised issues with his own behaviour. What a load of self-righteous toss.

[Bango Cheito]

N.B. the raging double standard. If you do anything else but sex work, albiet something well-paying and you blow your money on booze or other drugs or gambling etc. you're a moron and should have known better. But if you're a working girl you're somehow absolved of all personal responsibility for your actions.

I have news for Mr. Stickman... life PERIOD is hard on most of us... and a lot of it is because of our own shit choices we make. Most of the rest of it is due to cultural conditioning, which in the end is still our own responsibility to accept or reject. These girls act not much differently than your typical lottery winner, who statistics show without a doubt has a very strong tendency to waste every last time of his or her windfall.

Not to mention domestic life in the nuclear family is VERY unnatural and IMHO EVERY LAST BIT as damaging emotionally as even the sleaziest sex work. Most of us are seriously fucked up by our own childhood experiences, and nobody says boo about it, because that happens to be a sacred cow!

[Brazil Specialist]

Stickman's report has some truth to it. But I would conclude the opposite. Of course, thanks to feminazis and "liberal" do-gooders this will never happen.

Legalized prostitution, without any stigma, with social workers advising girls, helping them to avoid doing stupid things, probably would work perfectly. So perfectly it probably would turn the country into an even bigger ***** house.

I see the positive sides in Brazil. Unfortunately, it is being repressed here too, it used to be better. Girls who do part time prostitution, who have a normal life but get a few clients they meet through some pimps, through girl friends' introdictions etc. usually are not scarred for life.

Even girls that work at termas or at brothels usually return to normal life. Yes, most girls do stupid things with their money. Maybe there should be social workers or other government institutions helping these girls to take good care of their money (which of course would awaken the greed of the tax authorities). Actually, taxation is one of the obstacles that most girls would rather not be totally legal, even in countries where their profession is totally legal.

In countries like Holland where prostitution is legal, unfortunately the Dutch residents and other Europeans are not very good prostitutes. They should legalize sex workers with talent work visas for Africans, Brazilians, Russians, etc. Maybe give them just 3 month visas, so we get more fresh meat, and more girls get a chance to make some good money.

Maybe the money they earn should, mandatorily, be applied to college education. Maybe they should undergo drug testing, get alcohol counselling, ..... Maybe they should get rewards like employee of the month, to increase their pride in their work. Actual training in blow job techniques, pussy muscle exercises, etc. (I am always surprised that there are girls who have given 1000 blow jobs and still cannot keep their teeth out of the way).

Of course this is never going to happen. The problems exist because the same people who decry the problems don't want to solve them. They only want to extinguish prostitution. That is their only agenda. (Just like the anti-abortionists don't want to promote birth control to make abortion unnecessary)

I think most of the suggestions I made could happen by private businesses. If women can choose the most pleasing employer, if customers choose the brothel with the prettiest women, the ones with the best skills, there could be economic incentive to improve things.

[Westy]

Legalized prostitution, without any stigma, with social workers advising girls, helping them to avoid doing stupid things, probably would work perfectly. Girls who do part time prostitution, who have a normal life but get a few clients they meet through some pimps, through girl friends' introdictions etc. usually are not scarred for life. Check out www.parlamento.gub.uy/Leyes/Ley17515.htm. This law, established in 2002, legalizes sex work in Uruguay and spells out the legal conditions for sex work in the country. It's more concerned with protecting the girls from "pimp" exploitation, protecting them and their customers from STD's, and with zoning regulations for "prostibulos," "whiskerias" and "casas de masaje".

I'm very inexperienced in mongering, so I don't consider myself qualified to compare legalized vs. illegal prostitution. Perhaps someone with more experience, say in BA vs. Montevideo, can give us their take on it.

[Bango Cheito]

What's suppsoed to be so damn great about a college education??

If a puta is SMART she or he will invest the money, not blow it on some academic bullshit ;)

[Mein Dick]

People talk a lot about prostitution. More specifically people spend a lot of time condemning prostitution on moral grounds, religious grounds or because of feminism etc. These people are all full of shit (pardon my French) because talk is cheap. Prostitution can only exist if there are prostitutes, customers and a variety of other facilitators, including authorities. Most people publicly condemn prostitution but it still goes on on a large scale everywhere in the world. This obviously means that a lot of the people talking are full of sh! T, because it takes a lot of people to keep the business running.

If all these people are really so opposed to prostitution then they shouldn't involve themselves with it. That way they wouldn't be contributing to it. If a large group of people want to shut down a business all they have to do is boycott it. Don't work there or shop there. The place will go out of business if enough people won't do business with them. Same applies to prostitution. But most of these hypocrites don't want to do that. They'd rather just keep saying one thing and while doing the exact opposite in real life.

One more thing- if critics of prostitution want to be proactive in preventing prostitution, then I have some suggestions. They should set up a d! Ck-blowing department of government. Religious groups or feminist anti-prostitution organizations could set up their own non-governmental d! Ck blowing organizations as well. If the government, religious groups, etc. Provided sexual services on demand then there wouldn't be any demand for prostitutes. Alternately, they could just give large sums of easy money to anybody who could potentially be a prostitute. Then there wouldn't be any supply of prostitutes.

[Bango Cheito]

there still would be prostitutes.... no matter how much money you give to people, they are always apt to want more... just like there will always be thieves ... it's not poverty that motivates these things necessarily... that's a bad call...

[Gentleman Travel]

In countries like Holland where prostitution is legal, unfortunately the Dutch residents and other Europeans are not very good prostitutes. They should legalize sex workers with talent work visas for Africans, Brazilians, Russians, etc. Maybe give them just 3 month visas, so we get more fresh meat, and more girls get a chance to make some good money.
We almost had that situation in Canada...
For years we had an immigration program that gave priority to certain categories of work for which demand exceeded domestic supply and it was not just for brain surgeons or computer programmers - it included strippers! So strip clubs could easily and legally import girls from Russia, Ukraine, etc. Our strip clubs were heaven! And of course many of these girls often made money on the side as hookers. It was only about 3 years ago that they closed that program down! Bad news for the supply of cheap EE pussy in our economy, but really it was a stupid national policy.

On a different note, it is important to remember that there are many reasons girls become pros and many different attitudes towards this work. I had an experience with a girl last summer I met through Craigslist. A nice middle-class, college educated girl. I was probably her first paying customer. She was considering escort work as best matching her skill set. But really, I think she just got off on the idea of being paid for sex. She wasn't impoversihed, no one was exploiting her, she just thought this was a good career option for her. I have talked to other girls who came into the profession that way - liked the idea of getting paid for doing something they have being giving away for free. I don't know what fraction of the pro population that is, but they are not all driven into by desperation.

[Bango Cheito]

I shit you not when I say that I SERIOUSLY looked into working as an escort here in Bogota at the beginning of the year... the problem is that I'm not in picture perfect shape and male escorts get paid peanuts here... I make better money in other areas so I won't bother....

[Manizales911]

I don't know what fraction of the pro population that is, but they are not all driven into by desperation.[/QUOTE]99% of them are though,I have shagged hundreds of working girls and haven't met one that wasn't doing it for lack of money and lack of another way of making a decent living.

[Bango Cheito]

Depends on how you define "decent"... many people define "decent" as "how the top 10% economically of the population lives"... you can live simply and comfortably off of a minimum salary here in Colombia no problem. But most of those girls are more ambitious than that....

[Rubber Nursey]

I don't know what fraction of the pro population that is, but they are not all driven into by desperation.
99% of them are though,I have shagged hundreds of working girls and haven't met one that wasn't doing it for lack of money and lack of another way of making a decent living.
Lack of money is the reason ALL of us go to work. :) It seems a bit silly to say that hookers are 'only doing it for the money' - in that respect, they're no different to 99.9% of the general population! And we need to be very careful about using words like 'desperation', which tends to be more about moral judgement than finances (the assumption that you would have to be desperate to engage in something as abhorrent as sex work).

Prostitution *IS* a last resort for many. With the stigma (and sometimes illegality) involved, most people *DO* have to be in pretty deep trouble to even consider taking that first step. But why don't they leave the industry as soon as they've repaid their debts? Why don't they move into lower paid but more socially accepted jobs, like factory work or supermarket checkouts, once they're out of immediate financial danger?

For many sex workers, there comes a point where the desperate decision to make quick cash becomes a conscious choice of occupation...where hooking goes from the ONLY option available, to the BEST option available. There are countless reasons why sex work can be an excellent employment option, and it's not just about the money.

[Rubber Nursey]

I shit you not when I say that I SERIOUSLY looked into working as an escort here in Bogota at the beginning of the year... the problem is that I'm not in picture perfect shape and male escorts get paid peanuts here... I make better money in other areas so I won't bother....
Picture perfect? Pfffttt...not important in the slightest. The wonderful thing about the sex industry is that there is a market for EVERYONE. Some people pay for the privilege of screwing a young supermodel - ok, so you might not get those clients (and neither would I!) But some people pay to be pampered, some want stimulating conversation, some seek out alternative looks and body types, some want particular kinks and fetishes and, of course, many are simply looking for superior sexual technique. In a lot of cases, those desires are mutually exclusive...that is, they don't care what the person looks like, so long as they provide their particular fetish; or they don't care what the service is like, so long as the hooker is drop dead gorgeous.

There's not a large male to female market in most countries and yes, M2F sex workers generally get paid less than anyone else. (Many straight male hookers end up having to go 'gay-for-pay' to make ends meet). But as women around the world continue to become more financially independent and fit into more traditional 'client' boxes (long working hours, lots of travel, choosing careers over marriage, etc) the market will continue to increase.

Long story short....JUST DO IT!!!!! LOL :)

[Bango Cheito]

I'd see male clients NP.... still the market is just too saturated... I'm looking into going into porn instead... :P

[Rubber Nursey]

I'd see male clients NP.... still the market is just too saturated... I'm looking into going into porn instead... :P
For me, the only problem with porn is the limitations around choice. You have to turn up on a certain day, have sex with certain people, perform certain sex acts...and (in many cases) follow someone else's safe sex standards, rather than your own. I love the fact that when you're hooking (depending on your particular work environment, of course) you're in control of all those things.

I also love what you said about doing male work. :) Most people don't understand that sex work is not about sexuality or sexual preference. It's about business. Nothing else.