The Morality of Prostitution

[Bango Cheito]

Here in South America, condoms are the norm for doing porn. That's fine with me, or if regular (2 week invervals MAX) testing is done that's also acceptable...

I'll let you know how it goes anyways. One producer got back to me last night but I think he's full of it... I have 2 more lined up though and in a few months I just might finance a movie independently...



For me, the only problem with porn is the limitations around choice. You have to turn up on a certain day, have sex with certain people, perform certain sex acts...and (in many cases) follow someone else's safe sex standards, rather than your own. I love the fact that when you're hooking (depending on your particular work environment, of course) you're in control of all those things.

I also love what you said about doing male work. :) Most people don't understand that sex work is not about sexuality or sexual preference. It's about business. Nothing else.

[Rubber Nursey]

I'll let you know how it goes anyways. One producer got back to me last night but I think he's full of it... I have 2 more lined up though and in a few months I just might finance a movie independently...
How exciting!!! I guess one of the major up-sides of porn (compared to hooking) is that your 'clients' are generally gonna be youngish and good looking. Getting paid to have hot sex with hot porn stars...you're living the dream, amigo! :)

Now there's a thought for 'Morality of Prostitution' discussion:
How do you guys feel about porn, compared to prostitution? Desperate vs adventurous, degrading vs empowering, marrying ex-porn stars vs ex-hookers, STI/HIV risks, exploitation, etc? Is there even a difference?

There seems to be quite a difference in public perception ...while both occupations are certainly frowned on, announcing "I'm a porn star" at a dinner party would likely get a different response than saying "I'm a wh*re". Ex-porn stars in the public/political arena are also treated quite differently to ex-hookers. Why do you think that is?

[Mein Dick]

Prostitution thrives when there is poverty. It does well when there are large wealth disparities- wealthy people and very poor people. That is when there will be lots of attractive women offering low prices. When people are relatively wealthy, and have other options, then there will be less women willing to work as prostitutes. And, if they do, they will demand higher prices. The place with lots of poverty is likely to have lots of beautiful young women begging to do anything at bottom-basement prices. Whereas the place with more equal wealth distribution, social spending, etc., is more likely to have a handful of ugly working women demanding very high prices. That is the trend worldwide. In all these "sex paradises" that middle aged Western men and retirees go to score with teenage girls, mens' sexual fantasies are fulfilled because of poverty.

Prostitution is like a lot of other non-sexual jobs. When people have options they don't do certain things; or they demand higher prices to do certain things. Nowadays Western people tend to hire foreign housekeepers and gardeners. Why? Because citizens of Western countries won't do that work unless they're well paid. They don't need the money that badly. Foreigners are more desperate and will do the work for less. Just like Western corporations don't open sweatshops in the West. They open sweatshops in poorer countries. Because Western people just aren't going to make shoes or jeans at 3 cents an hour unless they're in prison. They don't have to. Same thing with prostitution. Poorer women have more motivation to work for less money.

Prostitution has been nearly eliminated in some places because they eliminated the conditions that are beneficial to prostitution. But the reality is most vocal, in public critics of prostitution are hypocrites who have no interest in actually preventing prostitution. Or in taking the necessary steps to eliminate it.

[Bango Cheito]

Mein Dick, I'm not so sure, if what you say were true, there would be more prostitution in Bolivia than in Colombia or the DR. But there is LESS....

RN, actually I think it's a lot harder in many ways... It's certainly a lot higher pressure... over the next several weeks I'm going to experiment with different drugs like Cialis etc to see their effect on me because I'm SURE they will be necessary... the lights, the constant direction, the camera etc. all contibute to being a great distraction... I'm also resuming yoga classes next week full force...

[Westy]

Now there's a thought for 'Morality of Prostitution' discussion: How do you guys feel about porn, compared to prostitution? Desperate vs adventurous, degrading vs empowering, marrying ex-porn stars vs ex-hookers, STI/HIV risks, exploitation, etc? Is there even a difference?I'll admit that I'd be less reticent about having married a porn star than about having married a hooker. I'd be less uncomfortable about someone asking my bride "Weren't you in Girls Gone Bad Volume XV? " than asking "Didn't you used to work in Casa de Nana? "

As for working in the business myself. I recognize myself as suitable only for comedy relief. Maybe I could team up with Moe & Larry look-alikes, in The Three Stooges Hit Cafe Exedra. A comic short, at 16 cm each. Whatcha think?

[Gfechaser]

Prostitution thrives when there is poverty. It does well when there are large wealth disparities- wealthy people and very poor people. That is when there will be lots of attractive women offering low prices. When people are relatively wealthy, and have other options, then there will be less women willing to work as prostitutes. And, if they do, they will demand higher prices. The place with lots of poverty is likely to have lots of beautiful young women begging to do anything at bottom-basement prices. Whereas the place with more equal wealth distribution, social spending, etc., is more likely to have a handful of ugly working women demanding very high prices. That is the trend worldwide. In all these "sex paradises" that middle aged Western men and retirees go to score with teenage girls, mens' sexual fantasies are fulfilled because of poverty.

Prostitution is like a lot of other non-sexual jobs. When people have options they don't do certain things; or they demand higher prices to do certain things. Nowadays Western people tend to hire foreign housekeepers and gardeners. Why? Because citizens of Western countries won't do that work unless they're well paid. They don't need the money that badly. Foreigners are more desperate and will do the work for less. Just like Western corporations don't open sweatshops in the West. They open sweatshops in poorer countries. Because Western people just aren't going to make shoes or jeans at 3 cents an hour unless they're in prison. They don't have to. Same thing with prostitution. Poorer women have more motivation to work for less money.

Prostitution has been nearly eliminated in some places because they eliminated the conditions that are beneficial to prostitution. But the reality is most vocal, in public critics of prostitution are hypocrites who have no interest in actually preventing prostitution. Or in taking the necessary steps to eliminate it.

I agree. I often wonder what would happen if prostitution were legal everywhere and accepted. What would the world be like if this were true? How would relationships be affected? What does everyone think?

[Gedanken]

99% of them are though,I have shagged hundreds of working girls and haven't met one that wasn't doing it for lack of money and lack of another way of making a decent living.Ditto, I've never fucked a girl who was doing it as anything other than a last resort.

http://luigiianrepublic.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/maddox_dipshit.png

[Rubber Nursey]

I agree. I often wonder what would happen if prostitution were legal everywhere and accepted. What would the world be like if this were true? How would relationships be affected? What does everyone think?
I don't believe legality would make much difference (coming from a country with relatively liberal sex work laws) ...but acceptance? REAL acceptance, as in the complete absence of stigma and discrimination and shame? That would make a difference.

For starters, I think the prices would go down. My theory is that the price of P4P services is directly related to the level of stigma in the community. In countries with clear class or caste systems (including those that treat women as second-class citizens), prostitution services tend to be cheaper. Going from low status to wh*re status isn't such a big jump...their options were already limited and their future prospects already pretty bleak. But in countries where citizens are generally treated as equal, the drop in status is much more dramatic. By becoming a hooker you're sacrificing your place in society, and your future, so higher prices need to be charged as compensation. If there was no legal or social risk, prices would be lower.

The size of the market also has a big influence on prices, so if more people (men AND women) saw prostitution as perfectly normal and acceptable, there would be more clients, so sex workers could charge less...it could also mean more people choosing to become sex workers and therefore more competition, which could also drive prices down. (*Please note that if we're talking about a climate of social acceptance, I'm assuming a model of decriminalisation. Legalisation, which is usually an attempt to 'control' prostitution, actually drives prices UP).

I don't think relationships would be affected, though. Well...sex workers' ability to secure relationships could change for the better, but I can't see anything changing for everyone else. The relationship problems associated with prostitution are more about trust, honesty, jealousy, body image, financial security, etc. Society's entire attitudes around sex and monogamy and desire would have to change first.

[Rubber Nursey]

Ditto, I've never fucked a girl who was doing it as anything other than a last resort.
How could you possibly KNOW that? Because she told you? When are you going to understand that sex work is a BUSINESS? It's all about maximising profit.

Tell me who you're more likely to tip: The girl that says "I love my job! I just bought a new house and car and sent my kids off to private school, and next week I'm going on a cruise to Italy". Or the girl who turns on the tears and says "I hate this job, but my mother is sick and her treatment is expensive and my father died last year. I'm only doing this so I can pay my way through university so I can get a good job and support my family". Hmmm?

Not to mention the stigma attached to hooking. Of COURSE she's going to try and distance herself from the job and 'excuse' her behaviour. Unrepentant wh*res are condemned by everyone ...'prostituted women, forced by circumstance' are pitied and forgiven. Look at the law student flipping burgers at Maccas on weekends. Do you think, when people at parties ask him what he does for a living, he proudly announces that he's a kitchen hand? No. He's more likely to say "I'm working my way through law school" and avoid discussing his embarrasing occupation at all. It's human nature.

I'm not saying that hookers can't be believed, but seriously. You're paying for a fantasy. She can read you in five seconds and work out exactly how to press your buttons - that's her JOB. You're not so naive as to believe that she loves you, or that her moans mean she's getting off on what you're doing to her...so why are you naive enough to believe her when she uses hard luck stories to milk you for more money?

[Bango Cheito]

I dunno.... I'd hesitate to comment on any trend in pricing for sex work... it just seems to be all over the map to me.... I know one girl who once charged a guy $500USD to masturbate him, and then later on she was fucking and sucking for $20USD a pop. I was good friends with a couple pros in NYC who would work the underground spots for $50-100 a pop and then the next day their one night a week at a high end club they would get hundreds out of guys who sometimes didn't do anything more than talk and fondle them a bit. I know another girl (gorgeous) who worked at a $150USD a pop spot here in Bogota and went to a $20USD spot and actually makes more money becuase it's higher turnaround.

[Rubber Nursey]

I dunno.... I'd hesitate to comment on any trend in pricing for sex work... it just seems to be all over the map to me.
Individual pricing will always vary wildly - that's the beauty of being your own boss. I'm talking more about big-picture, (local) 'standard' pricing. The price we measure against when we say people are charging very high or very low prices.

I once had a conversation with a Thai sex worker activist, who said that (in HER opinion) it was often easier for developing world hookers to be out and proud about their sex work, than it was for Western hookers. To paraphrase her, "In Australia you can be a doctor or a lawyer or a school teacher. If you end up a wh*re, you have failed yourself and your family. People don't expect so much from girls in Thailand. We don't fall so far. Our first responsibility is to support our families and sex workers can do that very well. People still think we are dirty, but they can understand why we do it". My friend was told something similar when she visited the sex worker organisation in India (Durbar).

Which got me thinking how many Oz hookers I've spoken to, who brag about earning more per hour than lawyers. We justify our 'fall from grace' by charging obscenely high rates. If there were NO personal or social risks associated with prostitution...would we still need to charge so much? In reality, hookers are charging a huge sum of money for something that can actually be obtained for free. These days, sex workers can't even claim a monopoly on convenience and/or willingness, with HEAPS of women now using online dating services to find casual sex partners. What exactly are we being paid the big bucks for, if not for the personal risk involved?

[Gfe Finder]

These days, sex workers can't even claim a monopoly on convenience and/or willingness, with HEAPS of women now using online dating services to find casual sex partners. What exactly are we being paid the big bucks for, if not for the personal risk involved?

Heaps of sites, maybe. Craigslist casual encounters, adultfriendfinder.com, etc. come to mind. From what I understand, even the places with the most female population are still 55%-45%. (Askmen.com had this statistic somewhere on their site if memory serves.)

I have no doubt that a man could be successful with effort and patience, but in the meantime I don't think your working women colleagues have anything to worry about. One can find a working girl and get laid then and there with a probability of 1. Or, one can find a casual encounters website, pay the monthly fee for a few months, and eventually find a partner, with a per night probability significantly less than 1.

[Bango Cheito]

I have to second this...

I have currently several women who ostensibly are down for whatever with me, but even just getting the schedules together is a ***** on wheels... it's just so easy to go into the brothel here for like $15 or $20 any time during their hours of operation.... :P 50% of my sex life is still p4p just for that simple reason... people have such a hard fucking time getting their shit together to be at a specific place at a specific time...


Heaps of sites, maybe. Craigslist casual encounters, adultfriendfinder.com, etc. come to mind. From what I understand, even the places with the most female population are still 55%-45%. (Askmen.com had this statistic somewhere on their site if memory serves.)

I have no doubt that a man could be successful with effort and patience, but in the meantime I don't think your working women colleagues have anything to worry about. One can find a working girl and get laid then and there with a probability of 1. Or, one can find a casual encounters website, pay the monthly fee for a few months, and eventually find a partner, with a per night probability significantly less than 1.

[Doctor_Skank]

Dating sites are a pain in the ass. Lots of pre-date/research work involved and then, even though both sides probably are just looking for sexual adventure, you still have to go through the motions (and expense) of at least one date.

And all this for a girl you want to fuck 2 or 3 times max before moving on.

In societies where pro sex is plentiful and affordable, it's a no brainer to go for the pro option.

"You don't pay them for sex, you pay them to leave afterwards." Still true.

[Australiasucks]

I would actually agree with that, a good date in my part of town will easily set you back 300 dollars, and that is the price of a nice fuck at a decent brothel. Still you get more oohh and ahh when its not a business transaction. Fun costs money, I live in one of the most expensive places on Earth.

[Johnny Maldiva]

I would actually agree with that, a good date in my part of town will easily set you back 300 dollars, and that is the price of a nice fuck at a decent brothel. Still you get more oohh and ahh when its not a business transaction. Fun costs money, I live in one of the most expensive places on Earth.Disagree.

In ANY city, fun is what you make it. Maybe after the first few dates the woman will expect to be treated like a Queen and taken for a horse-drawn carriage ride through the town, but generally if there's a real connection, you needn't spend more than 50-60 bucks for a simple dinner with a nice meal where you each pay your way. I don't subscribe to the "man pays for everything" notion anymore as it's too old-fasioned. If you need to spend hundreds to have "fun" with a woman, something is seriously wrong and you should question where this "fun" is leading, if anywhere.

[Johnny Maldiva]

I think prostitution is perfectly moral when you know what you're getting and pay for it accordingly. It's a business transaction, though you often don't get a refund for a faulty service.

[Australiasucks]

Disagree.

In ANY city, fun is what you make it. Maybe after the first few dates the woman will expect to be treated like a Queen and taken for a horse-drawn carriage ride through the town, but generally if there's a real connection, you needn't spend more than 50-60 bucks for a simple dinner with a nice meal where you each pay your way. I don't subscribe to the "man pays for everything" notion anymore as it's too old-fasioned. If you need to spend hundreds to have "fun" with a woman, something is seriously wrong and you should question where this "fun" is leading, if anywhere.Have you been to Sydney or any other major world capital city? London? New York?? The name of the game in the big cities is money. I lived in Australia for nearly five decades, I can tell you its gotten progressively worse for sexual fun, about 20 years ago getting laid was quite simple, these days the city is a very ultra commercial capitalistic place, money flows in and out. See how women treat you if you are dressed well own a high end European car and see how they treat you if you do not have those things.

[Johnny Maldiva]

Have you been to Sydney or any other major world capital city? London? New York?? The name of the game in the big cities is money. I lived in Australia for nearly five decades, I can tell you its gotten progressively worse for sexual fun, about 20 years ago getting laid was quite simple, these days the city is a very ultra commercial capitalistic place, money flows in and out. See how women treat you if you are dressed well own a high end European car and see how they treat you if you do not have those things.

I've lived most of my life in Sydney and agree that money rules this city as far as corporations and big business, but getting laid doesn't rely on how much money you have. Money helps as far as relationships go becuase all women want long-term stability in relationships. But on a Saturday night in some club, women just react to what they see in front of them and whether the guy is playing the "game" good enough to take them home. It's not about money... How do guys with regular, low-end jobs get laid? If you were watching the news a few weeks ago, "tradies" were the top job for sexual attractiveness in guys and they earn average wages.

[Angus Magee]

It is good to see some main stream news outlets publishing such articles as the following.


Instead of fighting the "***** stigma", middle-class feminists prefer to distance themselves from it, and by doing so reinforce it and exclude those who incarnate this identity. This participates in the segregation between women. This may be a form of internalised sexism by other women who think female sex workers give them a bad name. According to some anti-sex-workers' rights activists, sex workers maintain the idea that men can own women's bodies. Sex workers are told that they create a sexual pressure on the whole women class.

On the contrary, I think that it is by using expressions such as "selling your body" that we reinforce the idea of sex workers being owned and women as objects, while sex workers try to impose the term the "sale of sexual services" between two adult subjects. How can we talk about the ownership of our bodies when we are on the contrary those who impose their conditions? Isn't it an excuse not to question their own sexuality?

Full article here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/14/sex-workers-victims-laws-prostitution

AM

[Australiasucks]

If you really want to analyze male-female relationships in modern societies, its really all prostitution. The woman wants a man for $$$, lets face it, this is the dirty truth. You are attractive to a woman based on your financial condition not your physical appearance. A study at a univerisity even proved this, women were shown photos of a man in a three piece suit, one in a McDonalds' uniform, and one in a t-shirt and blue jeans. Guess who was considered most attractive? The one wearing a suit. Why? Because he appeared to be the most successful one. You exist to take care of her and pay her bills, that has been my experience with 95 percent of Western women, some girls are more explicit about it than others. So really what is the difference between handing a hooker $50 and getting into a relationship with the typical modern woman? In the former you are guaranteed a fuck, in the latter chances are you will be fucked.

[Bango Cheito]

I've seen some MAJOR exceptions to that rule here in Colombia.... but to pick up THOSE girls it's really hard unless you look like something out of the movie 300....

[Australiasucks]

Really? Then I my ass is on the next flight to Bogota.

[Gfechaser]

I've seen some MAJOR exceptions to that rule here in Colombia.... but to pick up THOSE girls it's really hard unless you look like something out of the movie 300....

I have been to Columbia and some of the other seasoned travelers on this bored let me know that Columbian women can be very crafty in coming across as very sweet and telling men what they want to hear. Just something to keep in mind. I actually experienced that myself when I was there. Good thing I got a heads up beforehand.

[Bango Cheito]

I have been to Columbia and some of the other seasoned travelers on this bored let me know that Columbian women can be very crafty in coming across as very sweet and telling men what they want to hear. Just something to keep in mind. I actually experienced that myself when I was there. Good thing I got a heads up beforehand.

You have NO idea..... I had one that had two of my best friends fooled and ALMOST fooled me... all I have to say is WATCH OUT FOR THOSE GIRLS FROM PASTO..... the joke is that people from there are stupid, it's the OPPOSITE... they are cunning and ruthless hahahahahahahaha

Australia/CBGB.... come if you wish but be prepared to walk the path of humility, you have SERIOUS competition from Colombian men. Learn to speak Spanish perfectly, learn the local slang perfectly, learn the local culture and history, plus that of the rest of the world, dance amazingly, drink all night and hold your liquor without making an ass of yourself, and be SERIOUSLY good looking and THEN you'll do well!!

[Brazil Specialist]

I dunno.... I'd hesitate to comment on any trend in pricing for sex work... it just seems to be all over the map to me.... I know one girl who once charged a guy $500USD to masturbate him, and then later on she was fucking and sucking for $20USD a pop. I was good friends with a couple pros in NYC who would work the underground spots for $50-100 a pop and then the next day their one night a week at a high end club they would get hundreds out of guys who sometimes didn't do anything more than talk and fondle them a bit. I know another girl (gorgeous) who worked at a $150USD a pop spot here in Bogota and went to a $20USD spot and actually makes more money becuase it's higher turnaround.

This is so true here in Rio de Janeiro. I keep doing girls for US$ 15 or 20, who used to work in Help for US$ 150. And they make good money because of the volume of customers they do at low price places. And often they work concurrently at low price venues (for guaranteed regular income, and a place to stay overnight) and then go to Balcony to charge US$ 120 to 250.

It amazes me.

[Lysozymes]

atMein Dick: Bump for justice. Very well written summary of prostitution.

Since I live in Sweden, we have (in my opinion) two kinds of prostitution.

I) The local girls who needs extra income

II) trafficked girls from the east who needs to pay their pimps.

Morally, I think the pimps who force the girls to prostitution are the guilty ones.

The girls who sell their bodies of free will are grown up girls. They know it's a business. So at least their more honest than some gold digging women I've met.

The second group of girls have been forced into prostitution, through false promises of jobs. These girls are under constant threat of violence and drugs. They are the ones who needs help from society.

Morally accusing the girls who prostitute themselves is a waste of time. You either work for a better society or you help out at one of the womens shelter.


Prostitution thrives when there is poverty. It does well when there are large wealth disparities- wealthy people and very poor people. That is when there will be lots of attractive women offering low prices. When people are relatively wealthy, and have other options, then there will be less women willing to work as prostitutes. And, if they do, they will demand higher prices. The place with lots of poverty is likely to have lots of beautiful young women begging to do anything at bottom-basement prices. Whereas the place with more equal wealth distribution, social spending, etc., is more likely to have a handful of ugly working women demanding very high prices. That is the trend worldwide. In all these "sex paradises" that middle aged Western men and retirees go to score with teenage girls, mens' sexual fantasies are fulfilled because of poverty.

Prostitution is like a lot of other non-sexual jobs. When people have options they don't do certain things; or they demand higher prices to do certain things. Nowadays Western people tend to hire foreign housekeepers and gardeners. Why? Because citizens of Western countries won't do that work unless they're well paid. They don't need the money that badly. Foreigners are more desperate and will do the work for less. Just like Western corporations don't open sweatshops in the West. They open sweatshops in poorer countries. Because Western people just aren't going to make shoes or jeans at 3 cents an hour unless they're in prison. They don't have to. Same thing with prostitution. Poorer women have more motivation to work for less money.

Prostitution has been nearly eliminated in some places because they eliminated the conditions that are beneficial to prostitution. But the reality is most vocal, in public critics of prostitution are hypocrites who have no interest in actually preventing prostitution. Or in taking the necessary steps to eliminate it.

[It Travel]

Dating sites are a pain in the ass. Lots of pre-date/research work involved and then, even though both sides probably are just looking for sexual adventure, you still have to go through the motions (and expense) of at least one date.

And all this for a girl you want to fuck 2 or 3 times max before moving on.

In societies where pro sex is plentiful and affordable, it's a no brainer to go for the pro option.

"You don't pay them for sex, you pay them to leave afterwards." Still true.

The only difference is that I like to keep them more a week may be is the right timing.... :D

IT

[Brazil Specialist]

Prostitution thrives when there is poverty. It does well when there are large wealth disparities- wealthy people and very poor people. That is when there will be lots of attractive women offering low prices. When people are relatively wealthy, and have other options, then there will be less women willing to work as prostitutes. And, if they do, they will demand higher prices. The place with lots of poverty is likely to have lots of beautiful young women begging to do anything at bottom-basement prices. Whereas the place with more equal wealth distribution, social spending, etc., is more likely to have a handful of ugly working women demanding very high prices. That is the trend worldwide. In all these "sex paradises" that middle aged Western men and retirees go to score with teenage girls, mens' sexual fantasies are fulfilled because of poverty.

Prostitution is like a lot of other non-sexual jobs. When people have options they don't do certain things; or they demand higher prices to do certain things. Nowadays Western people tend to hire foreign housekeepers and gardeners. Why? Because citizens of Western countries won't do that work unless they're well paid. They don't need the money that badly. Foreigners are more desperate and will do the work for less. Just like Western corporations don't open sweatshops in the West. They open sweatshops in poorer countries. Because Western people just aren't going to make shoes or jeans at 3 cents an hour unless they're in prison. They don't have to. Same thing with prostitution. Poorer women have more motivation to work for less money.

Prostitution has been nearly eliminated in some places because they eliminated the conditions that are beneficial to prostitution. But the reality is most vocal, in public critics of prostitution are hypocrites who have no interest in actually preventing prostitution. Or in taking the necessary steps to eliminate it.

Some interesting points.

If prostitution gets eliminated when poverty ends, why do they make all these repressive laws in Sweden etc?

Fact: prostitution gets more expensive because of repression. If there were more free competition, it would be affordable, even with local women. Like in Holland, local women are not great but reasonably affordable.

And if there were no stigma, they would be even cheaper.

[Angus Magee]

Some interesting points.

If prostitution gets eliminated when poverty ends, why do they make all these repressive laws in Sweden etc?

Fact: prostitution gets more expensive because of repression. If there were more free competition, it would be affordable, even with local women. Like in Holland, local women are not great but reasonably affordable.

And if there were no stigma, they would be even cheaper.

I have to agree whole heartedly with Brazil Specialist here. While the poverty vs wealth argument makes a certain amount of sense I think it falls short of explaining the whole p4p phenomenon.

Men pay for, and women sell (and occasionally visa versa) sex for a whole variety of reasons. Some as simple as they like doing it. And certainly when a society represses this time honored commercial transaction it gets more expensive.

In a perfect world sex for sale would simply be seen as one of the many options one has for getting what one wants and needs.

AM

[Westy]

I believe that many "forces of society" have a vested interest in keeping prostitution immoral. There's no surprise that the church would say so; and as "Arbiters of Morality," the church would push the state to say so, and to go further and make prostitution illegal. But the bitter surprise is that the Women's Movement would treat prostitution and prostitutes with such enmity; however, there is a reason.

P4P permits us men to "rent, rather than be owned." This makes us less dependent on the fickle favors of wives and would-be wives. When the Sisterhood goes on strike, those "sisters of mercy" are the strikebreakers, and they diminish the "Power of Pu$$y" by their presence and availability alone. That alone is enough to bring down the wrath of the "feminazis" on the sex-workers.

Sweden's "Sex Purchase Law" is particularly interesting, in that it puts all the punishment on the man and no blame on the girl. She's treated as the victim, of "long-standing societal order that kept women subordinate to men" if of nothing or no one else.

Of course, one of the pillars of the Women's Movement is that "women are victims, women are victimized all the time, it's all the fault of the rapacious brutal unfeeling B@$+@RD MEN!!!!" And, of course, any disappointment is viewed as "victimization." This falls on fertile soil, even with "traditional" women - who hasn't felt, from time to time, that they got the short end of the stick? Re-label it "victimization," though, and you can scream it in court. As the feminazis do.

Meanwhile, "Miss Bangkok" is making more a night banging Western cocks than she might make in a week or two of factory work. She dresses hot and slutty, she may have a stable of "Western Union guys" sending her money, she's got the latest cell-phone. Does she feel like a victim? Does she feel "immoral" when she's sending way more money back home to her parents than she could manage if she were a shop clerk? No, she's a good daughter.

I hope the Feminazi Sisterhood continues to find it hard to sell "victimhood" and "immorality" to the girls of the Third World.

[Ararat]

Sweden's "Sex Purchase Law" is particularly interesting, in that it puts all the punishment on the man and no blame on the girl. She's treated as the victim, of "long-standing societal order that kept women subordinate to men" if of nothing or no one else.A few years ago a man was arrested for committing this crime. He is a public servant in a high position and there was some uproar about the issue but not as much as you would have thought.

The reason was that the man is gay and his "victim" a man. The man's job was as a Supreme Court judge...

[Tomwannabe]

If you really want to analyze male-female relationships in modern societies, its really all prostitution. The woman wants a man for $$$, lets face it, this is the dirty truth. ... You exist to take care of her and pay her bills, that has been my experience with 95 percent of Western women, some girls are more explicit about it than others. So really what is the difference between handing a hooker $50 and getting into a relationship with the typical modern woman? In the former you are guaranteed a fuck, in the latter chances are you will be fucked.C'mon, man. Just because we are half a nanometer above animal kingdom doesn't mean our primal behaviour pattern changes. Before it was the strong dude who could hunt the largest animal who got the girls now it is the handsome/wealthy dude. Just a shift in what constitutes wealth now. Men like beautiful women for they have the better genes and women like those who promise stability and care for their offsprings. Isn't it funny that one needs to run expensive research projects to just get confirmation on how things worked since life came into existence on this planet and, believe it or not, will continue to function this way even after we are long gone. If we accept we are part of animal kingdom instead of sticking our noses up and feeling 'superior' to all the other creatures on this planet we wouldn't have that sort of problems.

Put in a nutshell: In poor countries you get a good looking bird for some bucks but if you wanna bed Naomi Campell for example it'd cost you about an 18 million USD villa that rich russion tycoon forked over as a 'wedding gift'. LOL

Also, don't easily rant that 'all women are prostitutes'. How about your mum, sisters or, if you have, daughters? Usually men go mad when you call their mum's prostitutes. Plenty of double standards then, eh?

[Westy]

...Don't easily rant that 'all women are prostitutes'. How about your mum, sisters or, if you have, daughters? Usually men go mad when you call their mum's prostitutes. Plenty of double standards then, eh?
I've seen that reaction called the "Madonna/w#0re dichotomy," and it is a truism that's widespread certainly in the Western hemisphere: guys putting "their women" on a pedestal, then leaving them home to take care of the dear children while Papi goes sniffing after some strange.

I admit, if I were married I'd want my wife to act in such a manner that I felt sure that our children were "blood of my blood." But I would also want her to stay attractive in my eyes, and to keep me well-satisfied in bed. Not likely with me in my late 50s; at least, not in the USA. But a marriage or a lasting commitment also implies that I satisfy her needs and desires - and what if she wants a family?

Since I never got married (a long story), I don't feel an unendurable need to get married for the sake of companionship - and I am NOT ready to start a family; I'd be at least 80 by the time the firstborn graduated from college! Therefore, the occasional working-girl fling makes sense for me. I get what I want, without the bull$#!+; she gets well-paid for it.

But the lack of "lasting commitment" is a cost we both bear.

[Australiasucks]

Some developed countries are quite draconian when it comes to prostitution, in Canada, brothels are illegal in virtually all provinces. The US outright has made prostitution illegal. Sweden has made it illegal for the buyer. France has outlawed brothels. But it seems the US is the most draconian towards p4p, its no wonder visiting a prostitute in America is rarely fun.

The weird thing about France is that street prostitution is quite common, in French speaking Canada, its common to find women working out of apartments. The Swedes I guess can go to neighboring countries to monger.

[Gentleman Travel]

I don't think you can put Canada in the same category as the US in "sex prison-ness". Yes, technically brothels and "soliciting" are illegal, but prostitution itself is perfectly legal and easily available anywhere. And brothels disguised as massage parlours or spas are pretty common in major cities - especially Vancouver and Montreal. Probably the reason there are not more is because of the extra costs - usually you are paying a room fee, or for a massage, then you negotiate full service on top of that.

So it is cheaper to go with Craiglist girls or any of the numerous escort services advertised. Of course, then you don't get to choose from a line-up before making your decision, but that is the trade off. Maybe we will see some growth in apartments featuring a few girls, which are sort of mini-brothels.

Generally speaking, the women in Canada are no better than in the US - maybe not as far gone, but on the same path. Except for two saving graces. Quebec women are sexier and have fewer hang-ups about making money lying on their backs. The other is that some years ago we let in lots and lots of Eastern European women to work as strippers (yes it was a formal part of our immigration program!) and guess what they do when not working as dancers?? So it gives us a good inventory of high quality working girls, although that inventory must be aging by now...

Quebec/Montreal is really no different than the rest of Canada in this respect, except the price/quality ratio tends to be somewhat better, and you sometimes get more action in strip clubs.

It seems to me that on your list Sweden is the worst case - the most hypocritical - illegal to buy but not to sell. Just a way to punish men for union-busting.


Some developed countries are quite draconian when it comes to prostitution, in Canada, brothels are illegal in virtually all provinces. The US outright has made prostitution illegal. Sweden has made it illegal for the buyer. France has outlawed brothels. But it seems the US is the most draconian towards p4p, its no wonder visiting a prostitute in America is rarely fun.

The weird thing about France is that street prostitution is quite common, in French speaking Canada, its common to find women working out of apartments. The Swedes I guess can go to neighboring countries to monger.

[Bango Cheito]

To me quality is good in Canada ONLY in Quebec...

There are areas of Canada that are more draconian where soliticing on the street is illegal... the legality DEFINITELY affects quality as well.

[Frannie]

some developed countries are quite draconian when it comes to prostitution, in canada, brothels are illegal in virtually all provinces. the us outright has made prostitution illegal. sweden has made it illegal for the buyer. france has outlawed brothels. but it seems the us is the most draconian towards p4p, its no wonder visiting a prostitute in america is rarely fun.

the weird thing about france is that street prostitution is quite common, in french speaking canada, its common to find women working out of apartments. the swedes i guess can go to neighboring countries to monger.

it isn't true that the us outright has made prostitution illegal. for that to be the case there would have to be a federal ban on prostitution. in fact prostitution is regulated by the states and one state nevada does have legal brothels. prostitution was legal in rhode island also from 1980 to 2009, but has now been outlawed.

it is quite important that prostitution is legal in nevada, because this means the us cannot pass a law making it illegal for its citizens to use prostitutes overseas.

i have never visited a prostitute in the usa, but i agree that it certainly doesn't sound like it would be much fun. like the swedes residents of the us can go to neighboring countries to monger, although from what i see on the internet there is not much harassment of prostitutes in the us as long as they stay off the street and behave nicely.

being caught soliciting a prostitute is a misdemeanor, which is a minor offense, in theory, like speeding or illegal parking, but of course if you are a member of a licensed profession, a lawyer, cop or a public figure, the the consequences could be very severe.

[Australiasucks]

Prostitution in all its forms is completely illegal in the US, I lived there for a decade and had quite a bit experience mongering there. Even massage parlors where handjobs are offered were busted by police there. Law enforcement in the US is quite draconian to both providers and clients, I remember some police officer who was caught in a brothel committed suicide when it was publicized that he was a frequent customer of a brothel.

The current economic state has change things to some degree. I went last year to a depressed Ohio town and had a great time with a local girl, I could tell she was overqualified, she said she graduated from college and escorting was the only thing she could find that paid above minimum wage. She had great attitude but in general prostitution in America is not much fun.

The only quality to be had in NA is in Montreal and other parts of Quebec, the rest of the US and Canada is a desert when it comes to p4p. English speaking Canada completely sucks for prostitution. Even Australia as much as I complain about it is much better for prostitution than Canada.

[Member #2041]

it isn't true that the us outright has made prostitution illegal. for that to be the case there would have to be a federal ban on prostitution. in fact prostitution is regulated by the states and one state nevada does have legal brothels. prostitution was legal in rhode island also from 1980 to 2009, but has now been outlawed.

it is quite important that prostitution is legal in nevada, because this means the us cannot pass a law making it illegal for its citizens to use prostitutes overseas.

i have never visited a prostitute in the usa, but i agree that it certainly doesn't sound like it would be much fun. like the swedes residents of the us can go to neighboring countries to monger, although from what i see on the internet there is not much harassment of prostitutes in the us as long as they stay off the street and behave nicely.

being caught soliciting a prostitute is a misdemeanor, which is a minor offense, in theory, like speeding or illegal parking, but of course if you are a member of a licensed profession, a lawyer, cop or a public figure, the the consequences could be very severe.
actually, the shitty economy has absolutely improved things around here in san diego. the decline in prices has been dramatic, and i have certainly found a handful of quite good ladies who offer short sessions for rates as low as $60 - one of my favorites recently needed cash and ran a special of $60 for a half hour, $100 for an hour - and her service was still as enthusiastic as normal - at least with a regular like me. more typically, i see a couple of ladies who advertise $80 quickies who will not rush a regular they get along with like myself and allow those $80 sessions to extend to half hours no problem. it's worked out pretty well, since i've been unable to break away for a trip to asia or latin america for several months now, but i've been seeing 2-3 providers a week for the past couple of months now here in san diego while keeping my hobbying budget down to $200 a week in the process. the local pickings have been so reasonable that i haven't even seen the need to get my ass down to tijuana in that entire period. oh, and i am pretty damn secure in the fact that i'm not taking chances of getting busted - i'm seeing well reviewed girls, and ladies in venues that one can be damn sure are not stings, and by and large repeating with the same providers where i have had good sessions.

[Dickhead]

it is quite important that prostitution is legal in nevada, because this means the us cannot pass a law making it illegal for its citizens to use prostitutes overseas.

being caught soliciting a prostitute is a misdemeanor, which is a minor offense, in theory, like speeding or illegal parking, but of course if you are a member of a licensed profession, a lawyer, cop or a public figure, the the consequences could be very severe.

prostitution in nevada is only legal in a few very isolated counties, and is pathetic and overpriced. neither speeding nor illegal parking are misdemeanors. speeding is a petty offense for which you do not get arrested, fingerprinted, photographed, and required to post bond. parking violations are normally municipal ordinance violations and, for example, the number of parking tickets you get will not be tracked or be a factor in subsequent fines, assuming you pay the tickets. so those analogies aren't very good.

where i last lived in the us, they could and would take your car if you used it to solicit, and in at least one case took a guy's house for having hookers over to it. he was not pimping or running a brothel, even allegedly, yet they took his house.

[Dickhead]

Prostitution in all its forms is completely illegal in the US

Bzzzt. Wrong. You must be from Perth.

[Goga Fung]

Prostitution in Nevada is only legal in a few very isolated counties, and is pathetic and overpriced.I believe in the beginning of 1990s prostitution was more available in USA. I remember driving in the center Philadelphia in 1994, there were lots of girls. Then something happened and every body were gone.

I was also told by one girlfriend that there are lots of 50-60y.o. virgins(guys) in USA. First I though it was a joke. But then I realized it could be true. I know at least one guy like that. There is no way a normal good looking girl would fuck him(which is hard for any guy in USA) , also prostitutes are illegal, so he has no was to fuck anybody. When he went to Europe, he did not managed to fuck a girl! In Prague he went to a night club and was quoted $70, he did not do it because he did not believe a girls would fuck him, he thought it was a rip off, his mind was so much screwed but bullshit back in USA.

[Australiasucks]

Bzzzt. Wrong. You must be from Perth.Only in a few places in Nevada, there is legal prostitution, in some regions of the US, in San Francisco, for example the LE tend to look the other way. But in general, pay for play in the US is illegal. Even massage parlors that offer hand jobs have been busted by police for prostitution. That being said there is still plenty of sex services available particularly since the economy is bad, more women are offering sex. Still its more expensive than in places where its legal.

In Australia, only street prostitution is illegal but brothels are legal and so are escorts and apartment incalls.

Brothels are illegal in Canada but going to a providers apartment is ok and are escorts. I think only British Columbia has legal brothels. If I was stuck in North America, I would try Montreal or Vancouver for p4p, or the Caribbean or Mexico.

[Gfechaser]

In Australia, only street prostitution is illegal but brothels are legal and so are escorts and apartment incalls.

.


Australia,

How do the escorts look in Australia? Are they much better when compared to service providers in the US and /or Canada? Some friends of mine rave that Australian women (non-pros) look much better that AW and have better attitudes. However on this board some people have lamented that this is not so.

[Australiasucks]

Australian women are far better than North American women, but for LTR they are not so great. Yes there are plenty of good looking women in Australia, definitely easier than their North American counterparts.

[Gfechaser]

Australian women are far better than North American women, but for LTR they are not so great. Yes there are plenty of good looking women in Australia, definitely easier than their North American counterparts.


What makes them not so good for LTR? Do they cheat allot?

[Australiasucks]

Here is the good thing about Aussie women. In the beginning they come on as friendly and open..but after they get to know you and more about you, things go downhill. Aussie girls are good for some fun but getting married to one, unless you are trying to immigrate to Australia, is not worth it. Yes and they do cheat, one thing that you will see a lot is when a woman is with a man in Australia, she will often look at other guys in his presence, this is so common among them.

But compared to American women they are definitely better and a lot more easy going.

If you ever come here you will notice a rather large percentage of Australian men have Asian partners or other foreign women. Spend an extended period of time with an Aussie and you will figure out why.

I put Australiasucks because at the time my wife left me and I got ransacked. But now I guess its not that bad, at least the weather is good and the beaches are great.

[Sammon]

Only in a few places in Nevada, there is legal prostitution, in some regions of the US, in San Francisco, for example the LE tend to look the other way. But in general, pay for play in the US is illegal. Even massage parlors that offer hand jobs have been busted by police for prostitution. That being said there is still plenty of sex services available particularly since the economy is bad, more women are offering sex. Still its more expensive than in places where its legal.

In Australia, only street prostitution is illegal but brothels are legal and so are escorts and apartment incalls.

Brothels are illegal in Canada but going to a providers apartment is ok and are escorts. I think only British Columbia has legal brothels. If I was stuck in North America, I would try Montreal or Vancouver for p4p, or the Caribbean or Mexico.
I Believe if Prostituition becomes legal in USA the price will come down drastically. If this happens it will be on par with other countries and there will be no need to go anywhere.

[Dickhead]

Pigs will be taking to the air in large numbers before prostitution is ever legalized in the Yew Ess. Although, we are making good progress with the marijuana thing.

[Opebo]

I believe in the beginning of 1990s prostitution was more available in USA. I remember driving in the center Philadelphia in 1994, there were lots of girls. Then something happened and every body were gone.

I was also told by one girlfriend that there are lots of 50-60y.o. virgins(guys) in USA. First I though it was a joke. But then I realized it could be true.

Yes there were far and away more girls in the late 1980s to early 1990s. By the mid-nineties they were eliminated. I think the police crackdowns were stepped up enormously over the course of that period, and the girls were eliminated. I used to get propositioned all the time back then, and I wasn't even looking for it. Nowadays when I'm back in the US I drive for hours and never see a girl.

Nowadays if you find a girl in the US, she will be gone in a matter of days or weeks, spending about 90% of her time in jail and only very rarely out to provide services.

And yes, the USA is the land of the middle-aged virgin. It is very much like that Stallone movie Demolition Man.

[Goga Fung]

and yes, the usa is the land of the middle-aged virgin. it is very much like that stallone movie demolition man.i looked up on the internet on this and was shocked. usa is really the land of the middle-aged virgin. incredible stuff.. how come supposedly the "#1" country in the universe makes lives of many of its men so miserable?

"i was a middle-aged virgin"

roger is 49 years old and has only had intercourse once -- with a surrogate. he's not alone.

http://dir.salon.com/story/sex/feature/2003/10/08/virgin/index.html

oct 8, 2003 | roger andrews, of fort lauderdale, fla., is 49 years old and has never had a sexual relationship with anyone except himself. in fact, he's had intercourse just once -- in july 2003 with a surrogate partner he engaged to help him, in his words, "get over his terrible handicap and join the world."

to look at roger you'd never imagine his secret, or the deep shame he has suffered because of it. he's an attractive man: light complexion, thinning blond hair, strong chin. he's a successful computer engineer. he has friendly dealings with co-workers and clients. he's smart, articulate and insightful, especially about the issue that makes him "a freak." he's a jazz drummer, and he showed enough acting talent in college to consider a theater career. he's well traveled, and has scuba-dived all over the caribbean. but he's always been shy and never learned how to have an intimate relationship. "i never grew up in that way," he says.

roger is not alone. there are no studies on the prevalence of virginity over 30, but many of the nation's sex therapists report a small, steady stream of older-virgin clients. during 23 years in practice, california psychologist david johnston says he's counseled 50 middle-aged virgins, collaborating with various surrogate partners. "one was 72. a few have been women. but the vast majority have been men in their 30s or 40s."

[Australiasucks]

Pigs will be taking to the air in large numbers before prostitution is ever legalized in the Yew Ess. Although, we are making good progress with the marijuana thing.In some depressed small towns in the US, its actually becoming more tolerated. I went into a massage parlour outside Detroit a few years ago during a visit to the States and was pleasantly surprised. The shit economy in some parts of the country have a lot of women entering the sex trade. I even found a couple of American women working as prostitutes overseas.

[Rubber Nursey]

Bzzzt. Wrong. You must be from Perth.
And I happen to know the legal situation in the US, thank you very much...

[Rubber Nursey]

Pigs will be taking to the air in large numbers before prostitution is ever legalized in the Yew Ess.
The federal position on prostitution would make it awfully difficult for individual states to decriminalise sex work. The first step for Americans has to be to lobby for the abolition of PEPFAR and the Trafficking in Persons (TIP) Report.

Both PEPFAR and the TIP Report declare that the United States, as a nation, considers prostitution to be a crime against women that must not be tolerated, under any circumstances. The pathetic "do as I say, not as I do" TIP Report condemns countries like Australia and New Zealand for 'facilitating the exploitation of women', deliberately conflating trafficking and sex slavery with consenting adult sex work. PEPFAR forces poorer countries to re-think their liberal views towards prostitution, or risk losing American HIV funding.

While America is running around the globe, forcing these documents down people's throats and telling other countries what to do, it wouldn't look good if individual American states started decriminalising, would it? Look at what happened in Rhode Island - it started out as a discussion about independent sex workers, but quickly descended into "trafficking and sex slavery" territory. I don't believe Nevada is safe, either. A hardcore anti-prostitution feminist academic wrote a heavily biased report about Nevada brothel workers a couple of years ago, sponsored by the US State Department. (When a well-known sex-positive academic applied for funding to do her own Nevada study, she was refused). Check out this article for more information on the Nevada study: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/49447

If you guys really want decriminalised sex work in the United States, you need to support the (global) fight against the TIP Report and PEPFAR. While these documents exist, the pressure on individual American states to maintain an anti-prostitution stance will be enormous.

[Rubber Nursey]

In Australia, only street prostitution is illegal but brothels are legal and so are escorts and apartment incalls.
Not true. Every state has completely different laws.

[Australiasucks]

Not true. Every state has completely different laws.In NSW its illegal, there are still women working on Darlinghurst street but with prostitution being legal and the fact that women can work from their homes, I do not see why they would want to work on the street.

[Rubber Nursey]

In NSW its illegal, there are still women working on Darlinghurst street but with prostitution being legal and the fact that women can work from their homes, I do not see why they would want to work on the street.
It's legal to work the streets in NSW, so long as you don't do it near a church, school, residential building, etc. The street workers on Darlinghurst aren't breaking any laws, because it's a commercial strip.

Also, every sector of the sex industry offers its own specific benefits to workers and the streets are no different. Street work has no overheads, no advertising, no boss, flexible working hours, a large client base and a higher earning potential. Providing legal alternatives, like brothels, will not cause people to stop working the streets. Like street work, brothels have their own positives and negatives, and the brothel working environment is not for everyone.

[Australiasucks]

It's legal to work the streets in NSW, so long as you don't do it near a church, school, residential building, etc. The street workers on Darlinghurst aren't breaking any laws, because it's a commercial strip.

Also, every sector of the sex industry offers its own specific benefits to workers and the streets are no different. Street work has no overheads, no advertising, no boss, flexible working hours, a large client base and a higher earning potential. Providing legal alternatives, like brothels, will not cause people to stop working the streets. Like street work, brothels have their own positives and negatives, and the brothel working environment is not for everyone.I would never bother picking up someone from the street, there are plenty of fine establishments where I have gotten great service, especially the Asian providers just outside the CBD in the inner west. I am trying to change my tag because seeing the rest of the world I have decided that I love Australia.

[Rubber Nursey]

seeing the rest of the world I have decided that I love Australia.
Finally we have something in common. :)

It's ok that you wouldn't pick up a street girl. Street workers have their own particular reasons for choosing to work the streets, and street clients have their own particular reasons for choosing to see street workers. The sex industry offers something for everyone.

[Bango Cheito]

it's no secret that colombia and the us are allies, but for some reason i don't see any pressure here. prostitution is 100% legal and tolerated in all cases. they shut places down if **** girls are working or if girls aren't regularly tested, but that's it.

[Dickhead]

The US will never be successful in changing the Latin American view of prostitution. Some of those countries' leaders might pay lip service to the blather, but it won't change attitudes and won't change the systems in Latin America. The US might have some success in influencing certain parts of the world in this regard, maybe, but in Latin America? No. I have been to every Spanish speaking country in South America and not one single person could give a fuck what the US condems or condones.

[Rubber Nursey]

Bango, DH: I was saying that America was doing its best to spread the word. I wasn't suggesting the rest of the world was actually listening. :) Good on Latin America for refusing to be bullied.

Brazil famously refused to sign PEPFAR's global prostitution gag and PROUDLY lost millions in US funding. Maintaining their values, and the health of their sex workers, was more important to them.

[Australiasucks]

The US will never be successful in changing the Latin American view of prostitution. Some of those countries' leaders might pay lip service to the blather, but it won't change attitudes and won't change the systems in Latin America. The US might have some success in influencing certain parts of the world in this regard, maybe, but in Latin America? No. I have been to every Spanish speaking country in South America and not one single person could give a fuck what the US condems or condones.US style puritanism is reaching in some areas but not fully. I am starting to see it pop up in Europe. I am also noticing that the slim Europeans are becoming more rare these days. Europeans are consuming more crap food, becoming lazier and fatter and also not as raunchy as I used to remember. I recall Germany used to be full of fully nude FKK sex clubs, but now these clubs are becoming sauna clubs where the women are covering up, I was not imagining it, to me it used to be an adults only Disneyland. Bummer.

France is becoming ultra anal about prostitution. Paris used to be full of streetwalkers, and these days its dead, also street prostitution has been completely criminalized.

Australia mostly tolerates brothels and escort services, many women work out of apartments. Street prostitution is still pretty much illegal. But you are seeing the same American style pattern, people getting fatter, lazier, more consumerist and less libido. Still I do not have trouble meeting willing ladies in Oz.

[Gfechaser]

US style puritanism is reaching in some areas but not fully. I am starting to see it pop up in Europe. I am also noticing that the slim Europeans are becoming more rare these days. Europeans are consuming more crap food, becoming lazier and fatter and also not as raunchy as I used to remember. I recall Germany used to be full of fully nude FKK sex clubs, but now these clubs are becoming sauna clubs where the women are covering up, I was not imagining it, to me it used to be an adults only Disneyland. Bummer.

France is becoming ultra anal about prostitution. Paris used to be full of streetwalkers, and these days its dead, also street prostitution has been completely criminalized.

Australia mostly tolerates brothels and escort services, many women work out of apartments. Street prostitution is still pretty much illegal. But you are seeing the same American style pattern, people getting fatter, lazier, more consumerist and less libido. Still I do not have trouble meeting willing ladies in Oz.

Australia,

Your words of wisdom have me considering taking a trip to Australia. I always wanted to go there anyway.

[Dickhead]

New Zealand is better than Oz because the Kiwi gals like cum a lot more. Cum in face, cum on tits, cum in hair. That type of thing. Much more so than Ozzie gals although they are still better than AW.

So to summarize the sex in your English-speaking Anglo-Saxon countries the ranking would be (including appropriate gaps to indicate the magnitude of the difference):

1) New Zealand
2) Australia

3) Scotland if it were a country but it ain't so tough shit

3) Canada (including only the English-speaking part for this purpose)

4) US



5) UK


(way in the fuck down there)

6) Eire (Republic of Ireland)

[Australiasucks]

New Zealand is better than Oz because the Kiwi gals like cum a lot more. Cum in face, cum on tits, cum in hair. That type of thing. Much more so than Ozzie gals although they are still better than AW.

So to summarize the sex in your English-speaking Anglo-Saxon countries the ranking would be (including appropriate gaps to indicate the magnitude of the difference):

1) New Zealand

2) Australia

3) Scotland if it were a country but it ain't so tough shit

3) Canada (including only the English-speaking part for this purpose)

4) US

5) UK

(way in the fuck down there)

6) Eire (Republic of Ireland)The UK is worse than the US, that is my home country, and its not surprising to me at all. There is a reason why so many Brits go overseas for punting.

[Goga Fung]

4) US

5) UKHow come UK under US? No way

I got stuck in UK for one one day, in Manchester, looks like a shithole, lame, boring but. Found an establishment right away proving girls, some really hot. Fucked a nice *****. Spent 100 pounds. No way you get anything near that(this quality and price) in USA. No matter if somebody brags about "free" or paid in addition to the opportunity to get arrested for being horny in USA.

[Australiasucks]

How come UK under US? No way

I got stuck in UK for one one day, in Manchester, looks like a shithole, lame, boring but. Found an establishment right away proving girls, some really hot. Fucked a nice *****. Spent 100 pounds. No way you get anything near that(this quality and price) in USA. No matter if somebody brags about "free" or paid in addition to the opportunity to get arrested for being horny in USA.P4P in Britain is better but regular relations are really the same as in the US. And p4p compared to Britain's European neighbors is not so great, especially if you compare it to Germany's FKK scene. Look at what they have across the North Sea, in Germany, they have sex clubs galore. North America is not a complete wasteland when it comes to sex, the US and most of English speaking Canada pretty much blows. Quebec is one of the best places in the world to meet willing women which is a sharp contrast from the rest of NA. The French culture of Quebec rubs off well.

[Dickhead]

Well, try living in East Anglia and see what you think of the UK. And, it's right by Cambridge. UK women are just like US women, only with worse teeth and they are worse cooks and worse nags. And then you have Irish women who are just as bad as UK women except worse nags and that stupid Catholic bullshit. That place is hopeless.

[Goga Fung]

Well, try living in East Anglia and see what you think of the UK. And, it's right by Cambridge. UK women are just like US women, only with worse teeth and they are worse cooks and worse nags. And then you have Irish women who are just as bad as UK women except worse nags and that stupid Catholic bullshit. That place is hopeless.No thanks I've already spent enough time in the USA which at this point interests me only for business purposes. Soon planning to go back to Central Asia which is fortunately too far from USA, so it is more difficult for them to get americanized.

Regarding Anglia, I was talking with respect to how easy to get a fuck(and not bad quality too! And nobody messes it up for you like they do in USA. It is legal and your life is not screwed forever because you were horny!

Have you heard about this Turkish guy in USA who was too horny but did not have much money so when he was horny he went to fuck some hookcers and did not pay them. Eventually he got framed by hoockers and police, he got 150years+life time in jail for threatening a hoocker with knife. He is a dumbass of course, but were he in a normal country he would be doing just fine. Where he would not even need to go to a hoocker.

So at least Brits have normal state of mind, therefore I would place their country higher then USA. But I'm not interested in their women as potential mate. I definatly believe what you say about them, do not want to try that for sure.

[Australiasucks]

Well, try living in East Anglia and see what you think of the UK. And, it's right by Cambridge. UK women are just like US women, only with worse teeth and they are worse cooks and worse nags. And then you have Irish women who are just as bad as UK women except worse nags and that stupid Catholic bullshit. That place is hopeless.Britain and Ireland are still part of the EU, so the only solution is to leave to another part of Europe. I grew up in Britain near Wembley near London, most British women are high maintenance, especially around London. I honestly think they were once better than American women, at least when I was there which was over 20 years ago but today the answer is no. However I think continental European women are changing for the worse too. My latest trip to Germany was fairly disappointing.

[Westy]

The 1 August 2010 "Stickman Weekly" included a reader's article, "Men And Women, What Else?" that includes a point that (IMHO) deserves a place in this thread.
But there is a problem with prostitution and other low cost sexual gratification. The problem is not about disease or corrupting the innocent or sin. Low cost sexual satisfaction dilutes the pool from which women may choose their mates to have their children. You have to keep in mind that women have a very brief timeframe to get this job done whereas men can take a lifetime to participate in accepting responsibility. And what is worse in the West is that if a woman cannot get a man to the altar, she cannot get access to a virtual fail proof support regime whether the relationship lasts or not. Prostitution leads to a lack of containment of men’s loneliness, and if it is cheap?-well I think you get the point. Love might die.

The great irony of the sex worker industry is that Feminism, by seeking to extend control over male behaviour in the West, is actually fuelling pornography, prostitution, and sex tourism. Men’s sexual nature is, in fact, natural and not the work of the Devil and one of men’s burdens in this life is to have to satisfy it. Men need a pool of women who they feel will accept and respect them and if they cannot find such women they will seek satisfaction elsewhere. They will even allow themselves to be exploited for money if need be as long as there is sufficient illusion provided that the prostitute actually wants the encounter.
The "Law of Unintended Consequences" at its best, and worst. Or perhaps, in honor of Frederic Bastiat, I should rather say "unseen consequences."

What the Leaders of Society see, in the suppression of sex-work, is the suppression of "a great sin". These "horrible men," whose "intransigent lust" is seen as the obvious cause of prostitution, will "get what they deserve". Those "poor deceived women" will be "liberated" to find their honest place in society. And the world will be better for it. Sin will lose out, after all.

And what happened? Oh yeah, the Leaders of Society did make P4P more unattainable. But not entirely. They raised the stakes, but they didn't end the game; just ask Eliot Spitzer. But ... how are those "poor deceived women" making out, when they've been chased off the street-corners? And what of their clients - are they turning their attentions back to wooing the women who have all-too-obviously rejected a future of love & marriage in trade for ambition & salary and political power???

Hear the hollow laughter - especially here on ISG!

[Bango Cheito]

I disagree with that article. Now that we have modern medicine the rules of the game are entirely different. In the Paleolithic age, replacement rate was about 2.3 children per mother. In the Neolithic and after, it was much higher because of disease and other factors. Now it's probably damn near 2 kids per mother. And add to that the fact that a little attrition will almost certainly do us some good over the next few generations.....

Not to mention when a women DOES have children, the more armies of sperm competing inside her, the better for evolutionary purposes, obviously!

[Westy]

I disagree with that article. Now that we have modern medicine the rules of the game are entirely different. In the Paleolithic age, replacement rate was about 2.3 children per mother. In the Neolithic and after, it was much higher because of disease and other factors. Now it's probably damn near 2 kids per mother. And add to that the fact that a little attrition will almost certainly do us some good over the next few generations.....

Not to mention when a women DOES have children, the more armies of sperm competing inside her, the better for evolutionary purposes, obviously!
Well, BC, I agree about "a little attrition" because I believe that Homo sapiens is overcrowding the environment. I'm doing my little part to reduce it, because my sperm won't go to the cause of adding to the population; but there are plenty of "less ecologically enlightened" (please note I'm directing the sarcasm at myself) people who are picking up the slack.

Those paragraphs were a small excerpt from an essay whose main thrust is that Western woman has blamed, shamed, and preyed upon men so much that they've chased the men out of their lives; with consequences that are deadly to their genetic future. A strong motif in the essay was the way that these "strong, independent, feminist" women squander so much of their time and attention in blaming men for the dissatisfactions of their lives. Is it any surprise that men "give them their space," and consequently the "white European" population is not replacing itself?

If feminism is genetic, it may die out. Oh, the pity, the horror, the shame. :D

[Bango Cheito]

I don't get why Western culture is so precious anyways. We were stupid enough to burn all the books that contained our best knowledge back 1700 years ago, and it plunged us into 1600 years of darkness... there are STILL things we are missing. And from what I see the book-burning mentality is alive and well, I say if Western culture truly dies, good fucking riddance...

[Westy]

I don't get why Western culture is so precious anyways. We were stupid enough to burn all the books that contained our best knowledge back 1700 years ago, and it plunged us into 1600 years of darkness... there are STILL things we are missing. And from what I see the book-burning mentality is alive and well, I say if Western culture truly dies, good fucking riddance...
Plunging the world into 1600 MORE years of darkness - if it's lucky.

Sterilizing the world in Western Civilization's death throes, if not.

No, BC, not that far. I am, after all, a participant in Western culture, and (by your participation here) aren't you, too?

There are facets in "Western culture" that I'd like to see changed, even as there are factors in my life that I'd like to change. But I enjoy the benefits - I find them considerable; I tolerate what I don't enjoy; and I find a way to avoid what I find intolerable.

We men are damned by our horniness to be hungry for pussy. The current culture in the USA makes it unattainable, save for the very lucky - or those who are willing to indenture themselves to a woman who might "make them happy" on her terms, at a very steep price. We have to work so hard to make ourselves look "worthy of consideration," then when we've got someone - we learn that she's got us. And by America's laws, she now owns us, our property, our income; when she leaves, the courts will award it to her, and throw us out into the street. I find that intolerable.

I find it intolerable that I have to jump through such hoops to "get any" in the USA, so I don't even look for "any" in the USA. I take offshore trips to places where I can "gorge on the sweetness" (such as Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay; most recently the Dominican Republic; maybe Thailand and the Philippines, in the future). So do you, right? We may go to different destinations, but we have the same goal: A sweetness that American women have abandoned in the quest for equal rights, equal opportunities, and enforcing their behavior on American men. Now, if THAT "revocation of sweetness" dies out because these American women won't jump in the gene pool, I agree: Good fuckin' riddance!

[Bango Cheito]

I don't live in the US anymore. I live in Colombia. It's still part of Western civilization but it's different enough for me to clearly see how ridiculous the whole thing is. I don't consider myself part of civilization very much anymore. I "tune in turn on drop out" as much as possible. Being a musician helps.

Some things I do are, avoid processed foods, don't use hot water, I try to walk and take my bicycle as much as possible and avoid transporting myself artificially, I don't use chemicals of any sort on my body, all natural products. You'd be amazed how much cheaper and healthier it is. And I eat a Paleolithic diet and have as much sex as possible with as much of a variety of people and circumstances as possible. I utterly reject monogamous relationships, even the pretense of one.

[Dickhead]

You don't use hot water because it never fucking works in Colombia, those stupid wires wrapped around the shower head. Please. At least Argentina has actual water heaters.

But what's wrong with hot water? Dries your skin or some candy ass thing? Or is it the energy usage that bothers you?

[Tuxsmasher]

Plunging the world into 1600 MORE years of darkness - if it's lucky.

Sterilizing the world in Western Civilization's death throes, if not.

No, BC, not that far. I am, after all, a participant in Western culture, and (by your participation here) aren't you, too?

There are facets in "Western culture" that I'd like to see changed, even as there are factors in my life that I'd like to change. But I enjoy the benefits - I find them considerable; I tolerate what I don't enjoy; and I find a way to avoid what I find intolerable.

We men are damned by our horniness to be hungry for pussy. The current culture in the USA makes it unattainable, save for the very lucky - or those who are willing to indenture themselves to a woman who might "make them happy" on her terms, at a very steep price. We have to work so hard to make ourselves look "worthy of consideration," then when we've got someone - we learn that she's got us. And by America's laws, she now owns us, our property, our income; when she leaves, the courts will award it to her, and throw us out into the street. I find that intolerable.

I find it intolerable that I have to jump through such hoops to "get any" in the USA, so I don't even look for "any" in the USA. I take offshore trips to places where I can "gorge on the sweetness" (such as Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay; most recently the Dominican Republic; maybe Thailand and the Philippines, in the future). So do you, right? We may go to different destinations, but we have the same goal: A sweetness that American women have abandoned in the quest for equal rights, equal opportunities, and enforcing their behavior on American men. Now, if THAT "revocation of sweetness" dies out because these American women won't jump in the gene pool, I agree: Good fuckin' riddance!WOW bitter much? If you don't like living in USA so much, why don't you leave?

[Australiasucks]

I don't get why Western culture is so precious anyways. We were stupid enough to burn all the books that contained our best knowledge back 1700 years ago, and it plunged us into 1600 years of darkness... there are STILL things we are missing. And from what I see the book-burning mentality is alive and well, I say if Western culture truly dies, good fucking riddance...Are you kidding, Western civilization is no longer precious, its in a state of decay. If you look at the current state of the Western world its pretty much classic moral decay preceding a sharp decline. The US and Europe which both represent the center of the West are both in decline. Honestly I am looking forward to the Asian century. In the part of the world where I live its pretty much becoming an Asian century in every way possible. If the West collapses, good riddance.

[Westy]

Tux, it isn't "the USA" that I dislike. It's American women, all their crazy games, and the marriage-and-divorce system that lets them prey on the guys. I don't play that game; I never married, and I don't date in the USA.

Where does this tie back to "the morality of prostitution"? Every state but one makes prostitution - and as significantly, soliciting to "pay-for-play" - a crime. At the same time, there is so damn much attention played onto the "pleasures of the flesh" ... you can sell the sizzle, but not the steak! It's schizophrenic; we get our hormones all in an uproar, and we have no legal recourse from playing the AW's crooked games.

My answer is the offshore vacation (yours, too?) For the money we might spend playing "the dating game" in the USA, we can spend a couple of weeks a year (maybe more) getting all we can handle in a P4P haven like the Dom Rep. The girls are as eager for our money as we're eager for their booty, and we go home with memories that can last us till the next trip. :D

As for leaving the USA, I still have a couple of reasons to stay here for a while longer. The USA is still a great nation, despite its faults (and the politicians who seem hell-bent to rid this country of its greatness!) But I'm aware that my life could be better somewhere else; and I do spend a fair amount of time traveling offshore, looking for the place I'd like to live when I am ready to "sail away."


WOW bitter much? If you don't like living in USA so much, why don't you leave?

[Bango Cheito]

You don't use hot water because it never fucking works in Colombia, those stupid wires wrapped around the shower head. Please. At least Argentina has actual water heaters.

But what's wrong with hot water? Dries your skin or some candy ass thing? Or is it the energy usage that bothers you?

Fucks up your skin and hair. Why do you think people in North America look 20 years older than people here of the same age?

I had a hot water heater in my previous apt... and the one I'm moving to I think has one... but I'll never turn it on...

[Australiasucks]

Fucks up your skin and hair. Why do you think people in North America look 20 years older than people here of the same age?

I had a hot water heater in my previous apt... and the one I'm moving to I think has one... but I'll never turn it on...I use hot water but my diet in Australia is far better than what I had in the US, I eat mostly a Mediterranean style diet. I am in my late 40s but most people think I am in my early 30s. Paleolithic seems to be a variation of the popular Atkins diet, I noticed it cuts out bread, potatoes, grains, and rice but unlike Atkins permits fruits.

As far as the morality of prostitution most societies think its taboo but different countries have ways of dealing with it. Europe decriminalizes it mostly because of fear of the effects of keeping it illegal(organized crime, violence), the US puts its foot down completely pushing it underground. In neither place they look at it as moral. But in both societies its seen as immoral just each side has different ways of dealing with it.

I know in some Australian states, a prostitute is required to have a license, this discourages some women from taking up work because it will basically make it impossible for them to travel to certain countries such as the US which require visitors to be "of good moral character".

[Rubber Nursey]

I know in some Australian states, a prostitute is required to have a license, this discourages some women from taking up work because it will basically make it impossible for them to travel to certain countries such as the US which require visitors to be "of good moral character".
Urgh. This really gives me the shits.

Anti-prostitution arsehats are always yapping on about 'rescuing' sex workers from the industry and billions of dollars are spent globally on 'exit and retraining' programs. And yet, they bring in laws like Victoria's licensing system that BRAND sex workers for life, impacting on their ability to EVER live their lives as 'normal' citizens. Lots of Australian sex workers are denied visas because of their 'licensed prostitute' status and, of course, licensing (and police registration) prevents ex-sex workers working in countless non-sex industry occupations in the future.

Rather than supporting people to leave the industry, these laws often force people to stay longer than they had ever intended.

[Rubber Nursey]

What the Leaders of Society see, in the suppression of sex-work, is the suppression of "a great sin". These "horrible men," whose "intransigent lust" is seen as the obvious cause of prostitution, will "get what they deserve". Those "poor deceived women" will be "liberated" to find their honest place in society.
I know I've said this before, but ...people need to remember that until very recently, women had NO political power. Prostitution laws were made by male politicians. Before that, laws were made by men in the Church (and they still are, in some nations).

For centuries, prostitution laws have been created to curb and control WOMEN'S sexuality, not men's. Sex workers have always been seen as 'bucking the system'...we earn our own money (until recent times, most women couldn't), we dictate when and where a man can have sex, we put a price on something that (traditionally) men expect to get for free. Courtesans of old had access to exclusively 'male' domains, like politics and education, which made them a threat to security and moral order. Then, when the Catholic/Christian Church took hold of society, women were deemed personally responsible for men's lust and any woman who incited that lust was punished. Especially wh*res.

Even now, the anti-sex feminazis - while occasionally pretending to care about the "poor, victimised prostitutes" - condemn sex workers as "traitors to the sisterhood" and "tools of the patriarchy". They believe that sex workers make ALL women look bad, by "perpetuating the belief that women are sexual objects". Sex workers are the enemy. So again, even though they are being created by women, sex work laws like the Swedish model of criminalising clients (which LOOKS like an anti-male policy, but is in fact an abolitionist model designed to make sex work so dangerous for sex workers that they will leave the industry in droves) is yet another law to control women's sexuality.

You can see this clearly if you look at the end game; the ultimate result if sex work was to be wiped out of existence. Men would still be able to access sex, like they always have, but women would be unable to control it or profit from it. Nowhere in the Western world are they suggesting that men and women shouldn't have sex...they're just saying that women shouldn't be putting a dollar value on it. Is it coincidence that at the same time as we're seeing a global crackdown on sex work, there has been a massive increase in the number of dating sites, swingers nights, acceptance of polyamorous relationships, etc? Why is it lawful to advertise casual sex websites on free-to-air television and public billboards, but illegal to advertise brothel and escort services? Why is it that women who screw around are 'liberated' and hookers are 'degraded'?

I'm not saying that anti-prostitution laws don't affect men...of course they do. I just don't believe that curbing MALE sexual behaviour is their ultimate goal or purpose.

[Rubber Nursey]

Before people jump on me, I thought I'd clarify my comment on the Swedish model of criminalising clients.

In many countries where sex work is illegal, clients are not considered to be committing a crime - that is, it's illegal for the sex worker to solicit or provide the service, but not for the client. In my own Australian state, the law actually says it's illegal for both the sex worker AND the client to solicit street-based sex work. But in practice, clients are generally just told to fuck off and the sex worker is charged.

It's unfair that sex workers are charged and clients aren't. A TRUE feminist believes in gender equality, so either sex work should be illegal for both parties, or it should be legal for both parties. Feminists around the world are sick of one person being punished for a crime that is committed by two people. So the Swedish rad fems decided to address this sexist policy by tipping the law on its head and creating...another sexist policy. Way to go, dickheads.

The Swedish model, while being touted as 'feminist' policy, is NOT true to feminist ideals. For starters, Swedish sex workers actively opposed the criminalisation of clients, but they were ignored. As always, they were written off as being too fucked up to know what they were talking about and silenced by their rad fem 'sisters', who thought they knew better. The central tenet of feminism is that women should have "a choice and a voice". Proponents of the Swedish model drowned out sex workers' voices and removed their freedom of choice which, in my mind, makes it an entirely ANTI-feminist policy.

Secondly, true feminism recognises a woman's right to be in control of her own sexuality and sexual behaviours. Therefore, a truly feminist sex industry policy would a) acknowledge a woman's right to sell sex, and b) do everything possible to protect the health and safety of women who sell sex. The Swedish model does neither.

I know it's promoted as an anti-male policy that punishes men and not women, and that's true, but that does NOT make it a 'pro-female' policy. Swedish sex workers are really suffering under these awful laws and the Swedish (so-called) feminists couldn't care less. They just want the dirty wh*res to stop selling sex and making 'good' women look bad.

[Dickhead]

In many countries where sex work is illegal, clients are not considered to be committing a crime - that is, it's illegal for the sex worker to solicit or provide the service, but not for the client.

Name one, please.

[Gentleman Travel]

I know I've said this before, but ...people need to remember that until very recently, women had NO political power. Prostitution laws were made by male politicians. Before that, laws were made by men in the Church (and they still are, in some nations).

...

I'm not saying that anti-prostitution laws don't affect men...of course they do. I just don't believe that curbing MALE sexual behaviour is their ultimate goal or purpose.
What you are saying, in both posts, may have been true in the past, and may still be true in many countries, but I think in "advanced" western countries, the situation has changed.

The clearest case is Sweden, where gender equality is highest, but the feminists still cannot stand the thought that a) men can get sex just by paying for it and b) women would agree to sell it.
In good socialist style they oppose union busting (union of women controlling nookie). So they portray hookers as helpless victims and men as criminals.

Similarly, in Canada where prostitution is not illegal, but soliciting is, the soliciting provisions are mostly used to punish men (and chase street workers off the streets).
Then the men are most or less forced to attend "John schools" where they are lectured about the errors of their ways.

It is not about crime. It is about political correctness and mind control.

[Gfechaser]

I agree. If prostitution was legalized and did not have a stigma attached to it many people would not be in relationships because they were lonely or needed money. I think that society would be happier overall. Nevertheless I think that some men may be afraid that if prostitution were legalized that this would give women too much power. I could see forbes magazine now with pictures of beautiful rich women ceo's on the cover of the worlds biggest escort companies lol.



I know I've said this before, but ...people need to remember that until very recently, women had NO political power. Prostitution laws were made by male politicians. Before that, laws were made by men in the Church (and they still are, in some nations).

For centuries, prostitution laws have been created to curb and control WOMEN'S sexuality, not men's. Sex workers have always been seen as 'bucking the system'...we earn our own money (until recent times, most women couldn't), we dictate when and where a man can have sex, we put a price on something that (traditionally) men expect to get for free. Courtesans of old had access to exclusively 'male' domains, like politics and education, which made them a threat to security and moral order. Then, when the Catholic/Christian Church took hold of society, women were deemed personally responsible for men's lust and any woman who incited that lust was punished. Especially wh*res.

Even now, the anti-sex feminazis - while occasionally pretending to care about the "poor, victimised prostitutes" - condemn sex workers as "traitors to the sisterhood" and "tools of the patriarchy". They believe that sex workers make ALL women look bad, by "perpetuating the belief that women are sexual objects". Sex workers are the enemy. So again, even though they are being created by women, sex work laws like the Swedish model of criminalising clients (which LOOKS like an anti-male policy, but is in fact an abolitionist model designed to make sex work so dangerous for sex workers that they will leave the industry in droves) is yet another law to control women's sexuality.

You can see this clearly if you look at the end game; the ultimate result if sex work was to be wiped out of existence. Men would still be able to access sex, like they always have, but women would be unable to control it or profit from it. Nowhere in the Western world are they suggesting that men and women shouldn't have sex...they're just saying that women shouldn't be putting a dollar value on it. Is it coincidence that at the same time as we're seeing a global crackdown on sex work, there has been a massive increase in the number of dating sites, swingers nights, acceptance of polyamorous relationships, etc? Why is it lawful to advertise casual sex websites on free-to-air television and public billboards, but illegal to advertise brothel and escort services? Why is it that women who screw around are 'liberated' and hookers are 'degraded'?

I'm not saying that anti-prostitution laws don't affect men...of course they do. I just don't believe that curbing MALE sexual behaviour is their ultimate goal or purpose.

[Australiasucks]

I agree. If prostitution was legalized and did not have a stigma attached to it many people would not be in relationships because they were lonely or needed money. I think that society would be happier overall. Nevertheless I think that some men may be afraid that if prostitution were legalized that this would give women too much power. I could see forbes magazine now with pictures of beautiful rich women ceo's on the cover of the worlds biggest escort companies lol.In most countries prostitution is legal, Germany is a fairly modern and conservative country with a sizable Catholic population but its easy to find good legal prostitution and not see as evil. In fact it probably has the best prostitution scene of any rich nation.

[Rubber Nursey]

Name one, please.
Most Australian states, for starters! The legislation specifies that it's an offence for "a prostitute" to solicit, loiter, accost, etc, but doesn't say anything about clients doing it. As I said, WA's new street laws DO actually make both parties accountable, in theory, but in practice only the woman is ever charged.

Many (obviously, not all) Commonwealth countries and/or English colonies are still operating under imported 18th and 19th century English bawdy house laws, which see women as prostitutes (the problem to be controlled) and only refer to men in terms of 'pimping' offences. WA's brothel laws actually describe prostitutes as "women and girls" and refer to brothel owners as "he/him/his". The main reason why our state's sex industry is almost exclusively female-operated is because our laws don't allow male involvement, but they don't 'technically' rule out female management.

[Rubber Nursey]

the clearest case is sweden... in good socialist style they oppose union busting (union of women controlling nookie). so they portray hookers as helpless victims and men as criminals... similarly, in canada where prostitution is not illegal, but soliciting is, the soliciting provisions are mostly used to punish men (and chase street workers off the streets). then the men are most or less forced to attend "john schools" where they are lectured about the errors of their ways.
i'm not saying that anti-prostitution laws don't attempt to curb and control male sexual behaviour. they do. for the record, i am horrified by the anti-male feminazi rhetoric that paints sex industry clients as exploiters, abusers and [CodeWord127] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127). that's totally fucked up. and i'm certainly not trying to downplay or minimise the impact it has on clients. i'm just saying that the laws have more impact on sex workers (and for the purpose of this particular discussion, sex workers are women).

yes, anti-prostitution laws impact on men's ability to access sex. but what we need to remember is that 'sex work' is not just some politically-correct term for prostitution. we use that term because it describes what the job entails...the sex is work. it's our livelihood, our income, our means of survival.

when they stop men accessing sex workers, they stop men having access to instant sexual gratification. while i (obviously) don't believe they should have to, men can survive without access to paid sex. but when they stop women having access to sex work, they stop them feeding their children, paying their rent, accumulating assets, paying their way through school. they stop women having financial independence.

the women in sweden, and other so-called 'feminist' places in the world, don't give a flying fuck about the financial needs of sex workers. they just want them to get out of the industry and stop making other women look bad. controlling men's access to women's bodies is most certainly a secondary goal, but it's mostly about preventing women making the decision to enter sex work in the first place. wh*res are letting the side down and the feminazis won't stand for it.

[Gentleman Travel]

The women in Sweden, and other so-called 'feminist' places in the world, don't give a flying fuck about the financial needs of sex workers. They just want them to get out of the industry and stop making other women look bad. Controlling men's access to women's bodies is most certainly a secondary goal, but it's mostly about preventing women making the decision to enter sex work in the first place. Wh*res are letting the side down and the feminazis won't stand for it.
Well said.

[Dickhead]

"But when they stop WOMEN having access to sex work, they stop them feeding their children, paying their rent, accumulating assets, paying their way through school."

That makes it sound like they couldn't possibly do any other kind of work. Most people, by law, aren't allowed to do what I do for a living. So, they do something else!

[Rubber Nursey]

That makes it sound like they couldn't possibly do any other kind of work. Most people, by law, aren't allowed to do what I do for a living. So, they do something else!
Sex work is the only job I can think of where an uneducated or unskilled person, or people with drug addictions, acute mental health issues, etc, can walk straight into well-paid employment. It's also the only job I can think of where a person can work minimal hours around their family or study commitments and still earn an average (or high) wage. Of course, many hookers COULD do other work. But why should they?

My point was that sex work is not just some deviant behaviour that can be stopped at a moment's notice. During a presentation last year, I asked a group of happy-clapping 'rescuers' to think about all their own financial responsibilities...mortgages, car payments, grocery bills, school fees, gym memberships, clothes, fuel, dental appointments, etc. Then I asked what it would do to them and their families if the police one day walked into their workplace and told them they had to leave their job, effective immediately. No references, no time to make alternative arrangements, no severance pay or entitlements. They were stunned. They had honestly never considered the financial impact of being 'rescued' from the sex industry.

Even if you have other employment choices, finding work takes time and the bills keep accumulating in the meantime. If you have a prostitution conviction and/or big (brothel-filled) gaps in your work history, it will take even longer.

[Dickhead]

When uneducated and unskilled people get well-paid employment there is usually some substantial down side or educated and skilled people would be doing those jobs. That's just Econ 101.

[Rubber Nursey]

When uneducated and unskilled people get well-paid employment there is usually some substantial down side or educated and skilled people would be doing those jobs. That's just Econ 101.
I think the downsides of hooking are pretty obvious. :) A lot of the well-paid (unskilled) jobs include a 'danger money' component - mines, oil rigs, defence contracts, trawlers. They don't care if you're not clever, as long as you're willing to put your life on the line and/or put up with shitty working conditions. Sex work is no different.

[Dickhead]

Right, that's what I meant. And then in those places where it's illegal the wage needs to cover that risk as well. There's quite a wide range of risk scenarios because there are so many different kinds of venues.

So here in Buenos Aires, you have the clubs. The risk there is mainly of meeting some psycho, I would think. Those gals are seeing three guys a night at the very, very most. Another risk I've seen is that it is often quite boring and the gals drink, smoke, and eat too much, or use coke or "love drops." The police never raid those places but immigration does.

Then you've got the privados (apartments). Assuming the gal doesn't leave the place there is a certain security element from psychos but she has to fuck any nasty guy who comes in. Also some of those places have mandatory CIM so that is another risk. High volume as well; a popular gal might do 10-12 guys a day pretty regularly. Boring there too, but can't usually openly drink (and sometimes can't smoke; I look for those places), therefore must use coke. Although, not that many do.

Then you've got the internet gals. Theoretically they could have multiple exchanges before meeting clients, to at least try to weed out psychos, but they don't because they are impatient and greedy. They also need to worry about getting ripped off.

Then you've got the streetwalkers. They have more control over who they fuck than the privado gals but they are normally pretty desperate. Besides from the ripoffs and the psychos, they have to defend their turf from the other gals.

Then you've got the cafes. Those gals probably take the least risk of anyone because these are daytime venues so the clients are seldom drunk, plus they only use one particular hotel. Those hourly hotels won't let the guy leave without the gal, for one thing. And, the initial conversation/negotiation will probably be longer than in the clubs, so the client is easier to size up.

Different risks. But, Econ 101 to the contrary, I would say the apartment gals and street gals have poorer working conditions than the others. Econ would say they should get paid more. The opposite is the case.

[Rubber Nursey]

don't forget the risk of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), robbery and violence that every sector faces. no matter where you pick up your clients, you always end up alone with a complete stranger. also, hiv/stis and life-long social stigma. and yeah...the mind-numbing boredom! that's a shocker.

determining who actually gets paid more can be tricky. i don't know what the pay structure is like in your industry, but in ours it might be (these are completely made-up amounts) escorts $1000/night, brothel girls $300/hour, private girls $200/hour, street girls $100/shag. at face value, that looks like escorts and indoor workers are big earners and street girls are low-paid.

in reality, a street worker can do a client in ten minutes, so she's actually earning the equivalent of $600/hour. the brothel girl gives half her wage to the owner, so she's really on $150/hour. the private worker gets to keep it all for herself, but bears all the costs associated with running a home business, so she's probably getting about the same as a brothel girl. the escort can stay with a client for 8-12 hours, so her hourly rate is considerably less than all the other sectors.

working conditions are also difficult to measure. escorts might only see one client a day and get perks like dinner and dancing, but they do the service in environments they're unfamiliar with and have no control over. brothel workers have more security, but have no control over their money or their workplace (or the service, in some cases). private workers have control over their money and working conditions, but their isolation puts them at increased risk of violence. street workers have shitty workplaces and high risk of arrest, but they work their own hours, have no overheads and often have a decent peer network for security. also, if a street worker isn't getting any business, she can move or just bugger off home. the others have designated shifts, advertised hours of availability, etc and have to keep 'working' even when they're not earning money. i can't tell you how many times i 'worked' a 12 hour shift and went home with nothing!

[Dickhead]

Club gals = 200-500 pesos = 50 to 125 US, gal keeps it all, you have to buy her and you an overpriced drink, another 25 US.
Apartment gals = 80-250 pesos = 20 to 65 US, gal keeps 40%.
Cafe gals = really varies but 250 or 65 US plus another 20-25 US for the hotel. They have to pay to sit there, around 20 US a day.
Street gals 50-150 pesos or 15-40 US, plus a hotel but more like 15 US there.
Internet gals normally turn out to be apartment gals but the truly independent ones 200-400 pesos per hour or 50 to 100 US, plus normally cab fare (and then they pocket that and use the bus).

Streetwalking isn't illegal here, I don't think, and if it is they don't do anything about it. I haven't been with a streetwalker in a couple of years but I have had some fun ones, notably "Dickhead's María"; I had mongers coming from all over the world to try to find her. She has an apartment now a block from mine. Two of her sisters were streetwalkers too. One is supposedly happily married and the other is working in the apartment. There are a lot of tranny streetwalkers here.

[Bango Cheito]

These days with the economy what it is there is a LOT of down time for hos in Latin America... you can go days on end without work sometimes... it's a case of you make good money when you work, but that when can be very infrequent....

[Rubber Nursey]

Ouch. I see what you mean about the apartment girls getting screwed over! Is that just for a quick shag, or a whole hour, or...?

[Dickhead]

All those prices I gave were for an hour, and multiple pops are almost always allowed, although sometimes the gal will lose interest. Generally in my case that would mean about 40 minutes of getting the snot pounded out of you, with about ten minutes in between for bonding, cuddling, and similar non-value-added activities. Club gals will stay more than an hour if they are having a good time but if they stay too long they have to pay a bar fine.

The apartment gals normally tell me one of three things: they want to work during the day, they can't risk being seen, and the security factor. But I don't know about the security. I sort of assumed there was some big dude hiding in a closet somewhere in those apartments, but there isn't. I know of several who've been working in the same dingy apartment for six or seven years. I figure the apartments where they live are even dingier so it doesn't faze them.

The street gals say exactly what you pointed out: Freedom to set own schedule and to bugger off as indicated (rain, etc.). The cafe gals say the same thing but of course have to pay to get in.

The club gals hate rainy nights because they know they are just going to sit there all night for nothing, and if they don't work 5-6 nights a week they get fired.

[Brazil Specialist]

Urgh. This really gives me the shits.

Anti-prostitution arsehats are always yapping on about 'rescuing' sex workers from the industry and billions of dollars are spent globally on 'exit and retraining' programs. And yet, they bring in laws like Victoria's licensing system that BRAND sex workers for life, impacting on their ability to EVER live their lives as 'normal' citizens. Lots of Australian sex workers are denied visas because of their 'licensed prostitute' status and, of course, licensing (and police registration) prevents ex-sex workers working in countless non-sex industry occupations in the future.

Rather than supporting people to leave the industry, these laws often force people to stay longer than they had ever intended.

how visible is this license? anyone can access it on the internet? It should be as confidential as your medical record.

If it is not easily accessible, then it should not interfere with visa requirements. Or at least with future jobs.

Still, it looks scary, even if it is fairly confidential. So I repeat, what are the exact procedures? And why don't you need a license to be a carpenter, or do you?

[Brazil Specialist]

my answer is the offshore vacation (yours, too?) for the money we might spend playing "the dating game" in the usa, we can spend a couple of weeks a year (maybe more) getting all we can handle in a p4p haven like the dom rep. the girls are as eager for our money as we're eager for their booty, and we go home with memories that can last us till the next trip. :d

as for leaving the usa, i still have a couple of reasons to stay here for a while longer. the usa is still a great nation, despite its faults (and the politicians who seem hell-bent to rid this country of its greatness!) but i'm aware that my life could be better somewhere else; and i do spend a fair amount of time traveling offshore, looking for the place i'd like to live when i am ready to "sail away."

i love the us. it is a great country, its freedom is wonderful, just the unlimited freedom of speech! have you seen countries like germany and italy reigning in google and arresting their managers?

just needs to have legal ***** houses (or you live at the border to canada or mexico). and don't do what the majority does (eat at mcdonalds, get totally obese, ......) there are sizable minorities for about anything you can imagine, like eating healthy, riding a bicycle across the entire country, etc.

america is still leading the world in terms of research, new business, etc. but the majority of their population is ignorant, decadent, fat, .....

probably the feminazis that screwed it up. i understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.

very interesting arguments here

feminist arguments against prostitution dismantled (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/prostitution/feminist-arguments-against-prostitution-dismantled)

an example of a rich educated prostitute

financing doctorate with prostitution work (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/prostitution/belle-de-jour-prostitution-financesdoctorate)

and an attempt to explain why feminists are so successful and winning the war on all fronts. have you ever notice that most prostitution venues are drying out, be it help in brazil, brazilian street walkers, and cambodian brothels (beyond the deplorable 10 year old child abuse brothels, but all of them)!

females are superior in social manipulation skills (http://human-stupidity.com/science/evolution-psychology-darwin/feminist-female-social-manipulation-evolutionary-superiority-hypothesis)


rubbernursey, there is a general trend to repress men's access to sexual outlet, females having sex with younger guys and prostitutes are just collateral damage in a larger war. check out the entire age of consent war and the child porn hysteria.


supreme court oks indefinite detention for possession of photos. but violent robbers get freed. (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/supreme-court-oks-indefinite-detention-for-possession-of-photos-but-violent-robbers-get-freed)

clicking on child porn link: jail. but vilent lynching movies are prime time tv (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/child-porn-witch-hunt/child-porn-links-vs-violent-lynching-movies)

lynching adolescent movies are legal but nude adolescent movies are a crime (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/child-porn-witch-hunt/lynching-adolescent-video-is-legal-but-nude-adolescent-photos-felony-crime)

of course, sex workers crossing feminist picket lines are also an enemy.

feminists actually managed to pervert language, nowadays fondling a minor is "[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)" and 17 year-olds are children. maybe i am getting old, but in my old days of youth, 11 year olds were children and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) was forceful violent penetration against a person's expressed will.

other interesting sites
http://theantifeminist.com/

[Metric]

Most Australian states, for starters! The legislation specifies that it's an offence for "a prostitute" to solicit, loiter, accost, etc, but doesn't say anything about clients doing it. As I said, WA's new street laws DO actually make both parties accountable, in theory, but in practice only the woman is ever charged.It used to be even more slanted in New Zealand prior to full legalisation of prostitution - it used to be a crime for a prostitute to request money for sex, but it wasn't a crime for a punter to offer money for sex...

Consequently, negotiating a price for services would up being a bit like an auction.

[AColonizer]

i agree with you, it seems those articles are written by me, but there is a big cheat in the story: prostitution is the left arm of feminism.

feminism has got power and needs power. power is money. to get money, females are (feminist) wives or prostitutes. when prostitutes have paid their schools and real estates, they change work and claim more rights for females (and less duties), they want more power, they become feminist themselves.

there was no feminism and no power to feminism in the past, when each man easily found a woman and they created a lasting family, and prostitution was just a curiosity for few men.

feminism doesn't want to say, and this is the first and the biggest cheat of feminism, when women were abused in the past, the problem was (and remains) in the women themselves because women usually chose (and choose) wrong men and/or women always change idea about their tastes and wishes.


i love the us. it is a great country, its freedom is wonderful, just the unlimited freedom of speech! have you seen countries like germany and italy reigning in google and arresting their managers?

just needs to have legal ***** houses (or you live at the border to canada or mexico). and don't do what the majority does (eat at mcdonalds, get totally obese, ......) there are sizable minorities for about anything you can imagine, like eating healthy, riding a bicycle across the entire country, etc.

america is still leading the world in terms of research, new business, etc. but the majority of their population is ignorant, decadent, fat, .....

probably the feminazis that screwed it up. i understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.

very interesting arguments here

feminist arguments against prostitution dismantled (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/prostitution/feminist-arguments-against-prostitution-dismantled)

an example of a rich educated prostitute

financing doctorate with prostitution work (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/prostitution/belle-de-jour-prostitution-financesdoctorate)

and an attempt to explain why feminists are so successful and winning the war on all fronts. have you ever notice that most prostitution venues are drying out, be it help in brazil, brazilian street walkers, and cambodian brothels (beyond the deplorable 10 year old child abuse brothels, but all of them)!

females are superior in social manipulation skills (http://human-stupidity.com/science/evolution-psychology-darwin/feminist-female-social-manipulation-evolutionary-superiority-hypothesis)


rubbernursey, there is a general trend to repress men's access to sexual outlet, females having sex with younger guys and prostitutes are just collateral damage in a larger war. check out the entire age of consent war and the child porn hysteria.


supreme court oks indefinite detention for possession of photos. but violent robbers get freed. (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/supreme-court-oks-indefinite-detention-for-possession-of-photos-but-violent-robbers-get-freed)

clicking on child porn link: jail. but vilent lynching movies are prime time tv (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/child-porn-witch-hunt/child-porn-links-vs-violent-lynching-movies)

lynching adolescent movies are legal but nude adolescent movies are a crime (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/child-porn-witch-hunt/lynching-adolescent-video-is-legal-but-nude-adolescent-photos-felony-crime)

of course, sex workers crossing feminist picket lines are also an enemy.

feminists actually managed to pervert language, nowadays fondling a minor is "[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)" and 17 year-olds are children. maybe i am getting old, but in my old days of youth, 11 year olds were children and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) was forceful violent penetration against a person's expressed will.

other interesting sites
http://theantifeminist.com/

[Bango Cheito]

When was this mythical time and place where people "visited prostitues infrequentely"... it's been RAMPANT for MILLIONS of years literally, prostitution existed long before marriage did!

[Dickhead]

"when each man easily found a woman and they created a lasting family, and prostitution was just a curiosity for few men."

and when and where did that fantasy take place? how many "lasting families" did the spanish conquerers create while [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) virtually the entire indigenous population? how many "lasting families" were created when the british dumped their detritus on the shores of oz? a few, certainly, and those early families are still influential in those areas, but seriously? "lasting families" as an historical fact are in the distinct minority. perhaps you read too much nineteenth century fiction, or watched a lot of 50s era american situation comedies.

also, i might feel i visit prostitutes "infrequently" but my wife's lawyer may have a different definition of "infrequently."

i never visit prostitutes any more, actually. nowadays they visit me. costs the same and i know when the sheets were last changed. granted, it was a long time ago, but i know.

[Westy]

"(T)here is a big cheat in the story: prostitution is the left arm of feminism.

Feminism has got power and needs power. Power is money. To get money, females are (feminist) wives or prostitutes. When prostitutes have paid their schools and real estates, they change work and claim more rights for females (and less duties), they want more power, they become feminist themselves.
A harsh indictment, maybe not a just indictment....

I personally am not a good witness to such an indictment. If we define the 1960s as "The Sexual Revolution," I was interned as an enemy alien. Rather than seek my own satisfaction, I gave in to the notion that men's sexuality was "the enemy." I gave my support to the one woman who needed my help and couldn't realistically look elsewhere for help - my mother. I paid the rent, finally bought her a home, and took care of her (financially, emotionally, and at the end even physically) until she died.

Was she a "feminist"? Depends, to sortaquote Bill Clinton, on "what your definition of 'is' is." She raised me to adulthood without the help of a man, and without the help of the State (social services, charity, food stamps, etc.) As far as I know, she never accepted money from the State or from any "boyfriend" - and she had damn few boyfriends, that much I DO know.

Did she depend on me? Yeah, from when I got enough of a job to help out. I paid the rent from about my 20th birthday. I stuck with her, even when I had a girlfriend, because "GF wants me but Mom needs me." I took care of her the best I could. To this day I figure "I love you" means "I need you and depend on you, and lay claim to your fealty out of my need."

Was I a f***in' fool? Yeah, dam'likely. But I can shave without wincing at the reflection in my mirror. I can remember the trouble Mom had with raising me and keeping me decently clothed and fed (she was a practical nurse, an 'old-lady sitter', till my income was enough to take care of both of us). I did my best to "give back".

Now I'm too old to consider "the honest route" - taking a woman to be my wife, and raising a family with her. What's the "next most honest" way to my satisfaction? Yeah, you guessed it - an occasional visit to a prostitute, who will "clear my pipes" for/with me without requiring me to cleave unto her in holy matrimony forevermore.

Please pardon my drunken maunderings. But I hold that prostitution, for me, is the most "moral" way I can at-least PRETEND that "some woman loves me", at least for an hour or so.

[Australiasucks]

i love the us. it is a great country, its freedom is wonderful, just the unlimited freedom of speech! have you seen countries like germany and italy reigning in google and arresting their managers?

just needs to have legal ***** houses (or you live at the border to canada or mexico). and don't do what the majority does (eat at mcdonalds, get totally obese, ......) there are sizable minorities for about anything you can imagine, like eating healthy, riding a bicycle across the entire country, etc.

america is still leading the world in terms of research, new business, etc. but the majority of their population is ignorant, decadent, fat, .....

probably the feminazis that screwed it up. i understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.

very interesting arguments here

feminist arguments against prostitution dismantled (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/prostitution/feminist-arguments-against-prostitution-dismantled)

an example of a rich educated prostitute

financing doctorate with prostitution work (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/prostitution/belle-de-jour-prostitution-financesdoctorate)

and an attempt to explain why feminists are so successful and winning the war on all fronts. have you ever notice that most prostitution venues are drying out, be it help in brazil, brazilian street walkers, and cambodian brothels (beyond the deplorable 10 year old child abuse brothels, but all of them)!

females are superior in social manipulation skills (http://human-stupidity.com/science/evolution-psychology-darwin/feminist-female-social-manipulation-evolutionary-superiority-hypothesis)


rubbernursey, there is a general trend to repress men's access to sexual outlet, females having sex with younger guys and prostitutes are just collateral damage in a larger war. check out the entire age of consent war and the child porn hysteria.


supreme court oks indefinite detention for possession of photos. but violent robbers get freed. (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/teenage-sexuality/supreme-court-oks-indefinite-detention-for-possession-of-photos-but-violent-robbers-get-freed)

clicking on child porn link: jail. but vilent lynching movies are prime time tv (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/child-porn-witch-hunt/child-porn-links-vs-violent-lynching-movies)

lynching adolescent movies are legal but nude adolescent movies are a crime (http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/child-porn-witch-hunt/lynching-adolescent-video-is-legal-but-nude-adolescent-photos-felony-crime)

of course, sex workers crossing feminist picket lines are also an enemy.

feminists actually managed to pervert language, nowadays fondling a minor is "[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)" and 17 year-olds are children. maybe i am getting old, but in my old days of youth, 11 year olds were children and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) was forceful violent penetration against a person's expressed will.

other interesting sites
http://theantifeminist.com/i just laughed when i heard that, that cern lhc is a european project led by european scientists the most cutting edge project in physics. the gdp of the eu is larger than that of the us, china will eclipse the us in 10 years, they already surpassed germany and will surpass japan very soon, the us is next. you are looking at america from past returns, the current state of america is poor and has been since the financial crisis.

new business?? the us economy is a mess. the next big ideal will most likely come from asia.

[Rubber Nursey]

how visible is this license? anyone can access it on the internet? ... If it is not easily accessible, then it should not interfere with visa requirements. Or at least with future jobs. ...And why don't you need a license to be a carpenter, or do you?
Brothel owner and manager (ie. receptionist) license information is available to anyone. Individual sex worker license information is not available to the public, but access *is* granted to various government departments and authorities. This could include the tax department, local councils, social security, health authorities and immigration, amongst others.

One of the side-effects of global trafficking/sex slavery hysteria has been increased information-sharing between immigration departments and prostitution licensing bodies (and/or police). It would be nice to think that immigration would just check your work status and leave it at that, but it's not like they're going to wipe your details from their databases afterwards.

And that's the major problem with sex industry licensing...even where the licensing authority give assurances of privacy protection, they can't actually guarantee it once the information leaves their hands, especially when they pass the information on to departments that DON'T have adequate privacy protections. Centrelink (Australia's social security department), for example, shares information with pretty much anyone who asks. If the prostitution authority shares licensing information with Centrelink, Centrelink can (and does) share that information with the tax department, child support agency, police, family courts, even utilities! Centrelink is also linked with the national employment network, so it's conceivable that they *could* share sex work licensing information with employment agents and damage the chances of securing non-sex industry employment in the future.

So basically, with so many people potentially having access to your sex work history, ticking the visa application box that says you haven't been involved in sex work can be a fraught with danger. I personally know two women who were flagged as "licensed prostitutes" (and denied visas) before they even got the chance to lie about it! And brothel owners and receptionists don't have a hope in hell, because their license details are publically available.

re: licensing of carpenters. Regulations vary from state to state, but yes - in my state, carpenters, nurses, hairdressers, publicans, etc are required to register with a government department or industry body. There is one big difference with this form of licensing, though...their license denotes a PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATION has been attained. It tells the public that the person has undergone the requisite training or study to perform the job and should be considered a skilled professional. A carpenter's trade registration acknowledges competency and brings positive benefits to the licensee.

Sex industry licenses, on the other hand, require NO training or study and do NOT recognise professional skills or qualifications. They are introduced with the sole intention of monitoring and controlling the behaviour of sex industry workers. It's not the same as a carpenter's registration...it's more akin to a sex offender database.

[Rubber Nursey]

It used to be even more slanted in New Zealand prior to full legalisation of prostitution - it used to be a crime for a prostitute to request money for sex, but it wasn't a crime for a punter to offer money for sex... Consequently, negotiating a price for services would up being a bit like an auction.
LOL! That sounds about right. It's similar here for street work in most states...the sex worker is 'soliciting' if she offers it, but it's ok for the client to ask for it.

Mind you, even if the client is the one to offer it, the sex worker can still be busted for accepting it - which is how most police stings work. Undercover police approach street workers, offer them money, then nab them when they agree. In WA, this method is also used to bust private workers on condom offences...police phone up posing as a client and beg and haggle for bareback, increasing the offer to insane amounts of money until (some) workers eventually agree and are nabbed for "offering" to provide unprotected services. You'd think police would have more important things to do with their time, wouldn't you... *sigh*

[Rubber Nursey]

I understand that immediately after women got voting rights, the restrictions to prostitution were implemented.
Um, no. There have been restrictions against prostitution for centuries. Google stuff like 'temple prostitutes', 'Catholic Church, brothels', and 'Ancient Greece, pornae' and you'll see what I mean.

It's no coincidence that in many parts of the world, prostitution is illegal but 'tolerated'. This ensures men have access to paid sex, while at the same time refusing to give sex workers any sort of legitimacy. Translation: men have a right to buy it; women don't have a right to sell it. It's been this way for many, many years.

As I said in my earlier post...I *KNOW* that radical feminism is becoming an increasingly powerful voice in this debate and that it has negatively impacted on the sexual freedoms of men. I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that the rad fems didn't START it...they jumped on a bandwagon that was already occupied by bible-bashers and sexist gits who don't believe women should be allowed to charge for sex. It used to be that MEN blamed WOMEN for male lust, so they suppressed women's sexual freedoms to prevent it. Now WOMEN are blaming MEN for male lust...but they're still trying to suppress women's sexual freedoms in order to prevent it. The motive has changed, but the result is the same.

Also, I have to take issue (again) with the use of the word 'feminist'. I consider myself a feminist. I believe in gender equality in employment, politics, socio-economic status, etc. The women you are talking about are not, to my mind, true 'feminists'. Those women (2nd wave feminists, feminazis, rad fems) despise men, which makes them MISANDRISTS, not feminists. I'm reading a lot of stuff lately that blames 'feminists' for all of society's ills, but that's not fair. Please don't tar us all with the same brush. Sex-positive (or 3rd wave) feminists, like me, are actually on YOUR side. We're out there fighting for your sexual freedoms, as well as our own.

[Westy]

I *KNOW* that radical feminism is becoming an increasingly powerful voice in this debate and that it has negatively impacted on the sexual freedoms of men. I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that the rad fems didn't START it...

Also, I have to take issue (again) with the use of the word 'feminist'. I consider myself a feminist. I believe in gender equality in employment, politics, socio-economic status, etc. The women {fighting to suppress prostitution - W} are not, to my mind, true 'feminists'. Those women (2nd wave feminists, feminazis, rad fems) despise men, which makes them MISANDRISTS, not feminists. I'm reading a lot of stuff lately that blames 'feminists' for all of society's ills, but that's not fair. Please don't tar us all with the same brush. Sex-positive (or 3rd wave) feminists, like me, are actually on YOUR side. We're out there fighting for your sexual freedoms, as well as our own.I, for one, get that distinction. And believe me, RN, I appreciate your efforts.

Misandry has been around long before the "feminist movement". Aristophanes' Lysistrata wouldn't have been so funny to the Athenians, and civilizations since, if the audience hadn't seen misandrist behavior in their neighborhood; heck, it wouldn't even have been written!

Feminism, the struggle for gender equality, is not misandry, any more than "male chauvinism" is necessarily based in misogyny. But "the feminist movement" became a forum for misandrists and it was hijacked by misandry - or so it appears to me.

I was raised by a single mother living with her misandrist mother, so I grew up with misandry (which is bloody uncomfortable for a boy child). I learned early and thoroughly to hide and suppress my sexuality, enough so that a Federal security-clearance investigator once told me that someone had reported me as "homosexual" - which I am not.

(Maybe I'd have been a good candidate for the priesthood. But I'm not Catholic, and I'm not interested in pederasty either....)

[Westy]

This article started a lively discussion on one of Jackson's other boards, this morning ... I hope I can get away with posting the URL here:

http://www.argentinaindependent.com/socialissues/urbanlife/captial-of-sin-the-state-of-prostitution-in-buenos-aires-/

Reading articles like this one get me to questioning my own morality as a P4P participant. Or am I falling victim to the misandric propaganda again?

[DJ FourMoney]

This article started a lively discussion on one of Jackson's other boards, this morning ... I hope I can get away with posting the URL here:

http://www.argentinaindependent.com/socialissues/urbanlife/captial-of-sin-the-state-of-prostitution-in-buenos-aires-/

Reading articles like this one get me to questioning my own morality as a P4P participant. Or am I falling victim to the misandric propaganda again?

Well written...

Don't fall victim of it. Some societies don't look after its lesser people and leave them with very few options. In countries like Germany were its legal I likely think its a bit more of a choice, since you can go to school largely for nothing and the State gives you plenty of money (relatively speaking) if you have a child.

Those without a job and without job skills can still go to school but may not want too, which is okay. You can choose the path of the Adult Industry but there's a social penalty for that when there largely shouldn't be one.

[Bango Cheito]

This article started a lively discussion on one of Jackson's other boards, this morning ... I hope I can get away with posting the URL here:

http://www.argentinaindependent.com/socialissues/urbanlife/captial-of-sin-the-state-of-prostitution-in-buenos-aires-/

Reading articles like this one get me to questioning my own morality as a P4P participant. Or am I falling victim to the misandric propaganda again?

Let's just say I have a lot of inside info on this subject, and the article is complete and utter BULLSHIT... #1 complaint of WG in BsAs these days... WHERE ARE ALL THE FUCKING CLIENTS???

[Param Ahmad]

The recent channel 4 documentary on UK television was about sex trafficking in England with a worldwide theme. Girl are 'purchased ' in China and other parts of SE Asia and set to work in brothels under trebbible conditions. Once in the UK the girl was little more than a slave and keep behind closed doors sometime seeing 15 men a day. Of course the girl did not see any of the money and had to work until she paid off the 'debt' that she owed to the traffickers. A really sordid and sorry tail of cruelty and expoltation.

Does anyone know if this kind of thing goes on in Spain. I thinking of the Chinese brothels in Barcelona more than anything. Are they licensed like the other Brothels in the city centre or are they something else?

What kind of payment do the girls get from the 70euros handed over for the hour?

AlanHaving seen such reports in the news media, I've carefully asked girls working in clubs in Barcelona and elsewhere (Whiskeria Estark/Hotel Diana Plus, New Girls Cabaret & Chelsea I & II in Madrid, Estark 92 in Fuengirola, Estark 95 in Algeciras, etc.) why they are working there. Their responses have left no doubt in my mind they are "damas de compañera" (prostitutes) only because other girls, typically in their home country, have told them how much money they can make and that they are accepting money for sex entirely of their own free will. Sometimes I've seen girls from Estark 92 in Fuengirola sunbathing on the beach nearby the following afternoon where there appeared to be no doubt nobody was restricting their freedom to come and go. On a few occasions I've persuaded a girl from one of Madrid's or Barcelona's clubs to come to my hotel room, and they show up alone, again leaving no doubt they are acting freely. A Romanian girl at a club in downtown Barcelona told me she comes to Spain because there are no similar clubs in Romania. Sometimes girls working at Riviera Club or Saratoga Club in Castelldefels have told me they are going to be going home to Romania or Bulgaria for a few months but after that will be returning to the same club in Spain. One girl at Estark 95 in Algeciras told me she was earning more in one night at Estark 95 than she did in two or three months at her regular job in Romania. I've gotten similar replies from girls working in "all girl staff" shops in West Palm Beach, Florida, who told me after working there (in the sex business) "its hard to go back to a regular paycheck," since regular jobs pay so much less. Conversation with a Korean girl who I met at a "spa" in Rhode Island and later, entirely coincidentally, at another "spa" in Georgia, who told me she lived in Tampa, Florida, left no doubt she was there because it was her best opportunity to make money to support herself and her child. The girl I saw at Garden of Eden in Kelowna, B.C. (Canada) told me she was there because she's a sexual sort of person and decided she may as well get paid for it.

My conclusion after hearing the girls' comments about why they're in the business and asking them questions about it, because of the same ethical concern you have, is that the television, radio, magazine, and newspaper reports about women being kidnapped and forced into prostitution are, usually if not always, false propaganda to justify suppressing prostitution. This propaganda is probably perpetrated by people who dislike prostitution and are in denial about the fact that women work as prostitutes of their own free will primarily because they have found it enables them to make the most money in the shortest period of time.

As for your other question, it varies: As best I can remember, the least they've ever said they get to keep is about half of what you pay.

[Brazil Specialist]

This article started a lively discussion on one of Jackson's other boards, this morning ... I hope I can get away with posting the URL here:

http://www.argentinaindependent.com/socialissues/urbanlife/captial-of-sin-the-state-of-prostitution-in-buenos-aires-/

Reading articles like this one get me to questioning my own morality as a P4P participant. Or am I falling victim to the misandric propaganda again?

That article is actually quite balanced.

It writes some feminist drivel ("no women is born a *****", my reply "no woman is born a toilet cleaning lady", so what),

but writes some pretty open-minded things like

=====================================

According to two specialists in the field, University of Buenos Aires sociologist Santiago Morcillo and Carolina Justo von Lurzer, his doctoral research partner at CONICET (the National Council for Scientific and Natural Research): “What is clear is that these legislations neither offer any protection for people who carry out sexual work nor do they contribute to a safer environment. Instead it’s the opposite: they generate conditions of increased vulnerability.”

Furthermore: “…The police forces themselves often are complicit and active participants in the violence against people who carry out sexual work.”

When asked whether she has experienced violence on the streets, Margarita replies, “When I was working, I didn’t have any problems [from clients]. Only violence from the police.”

===============================

[Angus Magee]

Moved over from the Berlin thread as it takes us a bit off the topic of Berlin bordellos.

http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=1064435#post1064435


This is probably true. However, as long as it is their own decision to earn more from selling sex in Germany than working in a factory in Romania, then it is really not our problem. Not being their customers would actually make their situation worse.

In the bigger picture, of course, we should work for a world where such economic problems don't exist. I think it is possible to do this and at the same time enjoy the cheap sex.

One can avoid this entirely by going to Mettmann, which features only German girls (some might have some non-German ancestry, but then many folks do; the point is that they were born and grew up in Germany, speak fluent German and are German citizens-nothing to do with racism etc). I think it is definitely not a coincidence that the quality of sex (if not the looks of all the girls, at least according to some punters) at Mettmann is much higher than anywhere else. Even if I get comparable quality elsewhere, I know that in Mettmann the girl enjoys it at least as well as I do.



I am in agreement of course. How could I not be as a customer of bordellos and such clubs as the KG. However, I do note that when speaking of personal choice, which boils down to personal responsibility for one’s situation (what is happening in your life), the economically favored among us are the first ones to lawyer up when things go south. Of course they do. It is largely their system of law courts in which the wrongs are addressed. Please do not tell me that the courts also wrk for the common man. Of course they do, after a fashion. They most certainly though favor those who can afford the better lawyer who walks the same halls as the judges, and the politicians who put the judges there to try the cases. I am no lefty, well, maybe a bit. But I have taken a hard look at self responsibility where income is concerned. And believe me it was not in any theoretical sense. I was down in the trenches living my life with no money coming in (I lived for a time as a street person) all the time shaking my fist at “the system”, my parents, God, for putting me there. Until I decided, I put me there. I could take myself out. With a little help from my friends.

At its’ most basic I see that the decision to sell, or buy, sexual favors is largely an unwritten contract. As humans in relationship with other humans we make many such contracts through out lives. Some are more recognized and explicit (I promise to love. honor & obey), some more unspoken. To the extent that you can look deeply at the contract you make with any working girl and honor your side, you will stand a better chance of her honoring hers. Like any contract, there are no guarantees. The more unspoken stuff, the shakier becomes the contract.

I do realize that to speak of all this stuff sort of ruins the fun. So my attitude is to go into the contract, eyes as open as they can be, and take my chances. I am no fool. I look for clues all the time that tell me that the provider will not honor her side. But mistakes are made. When they are made I practice damage control, honor my side as much as I am able (pay the agreed price) and make an exit. I have in the past been horribly ripped off. Now, with 30 some years experience I see the clues and being horribly ripped off has not happened in a good while.

To bring it to the morality question, which is why I moved it here in the first place-at its’ most basic I do not really see that morality has much of a place in contracting a hooker. At least not with regard to the sex. The most important aspect is, I believe, the aspect of up holding your side of the agreement. This involves seeing what it is. What she does, is her business at this level. When we get into the place where a girl is working at a flat rate club and is obligated by the management (her contract with them) to go off to the room with a customer, your contract with her becomes even more complex and hard to unravel. The question remains should you even try?

At this point I say, don’t try too hard. Go have your fun. But be a gentleman. Don’t force things. Watch the place that thinks it has rights, for with those rights come responsibility. This is what we tell the economically depressed among us who want to sit there collecting state money is it not? The girls are doing a difficult, and I believe essential, job in our sex starved society. In some utopia of the future perhaps we will not need such professions. I do not know. For now though, and with respect to the flat rates clubs of Germany, take a look at the contract you make with yourself (very much unspoken) and see if it is really all right with you that you be there. If it is, go for it, but keep an eye out for the hidden clauses, the fine print. It gets you every time, does it not?

AM

[Bango Cheito]

That article is actually quite balanced.

It writes some feminist drivel ("no women is born a *****", my reply "no woman is born a toilet cleaning lady", so what),

but writes some pretty open-minded things like

=====================================

===============================

I know very very well a few people who have worked for extended periods of time in BsAs and I've never heard of a police shakedown. Maybe that happens to girls on the streets perhaps I don't know....

[Rubber Nursey]

The recent channel 4 documentary on UK television was about sex trafficking in England with a worldwide theme. Girl are 'purchased ' in China and other parts of SE Asia and set to work in brothels under trebbible conditions. Once in the UK the girl was little more than a slave and keep behind closed doors sometime seeing 15 men a day. Of course the girl did not see any of the money and had to work until she paid off the 'debt' that she owed to the traffickers. A really sordid and sorry tail of cruelty and expoltation.
An article about the UK trafficking documentary. http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9496/

By the way, the same docos are being made in every nation around the world at the moment. And I mean *exactly* the same docos...only the destination and country of origin changes. It's nothing but scaremongering.

Does trafficking and sexual abuse exist? Yes, it does (and it's a horrific crime that should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law). But is every migrant sex worker a kidnapped, tortured sex slave? Of course not. That is racist, patronising bullshit.

As for contract work (or "debt bondage" as it's often called)...that wouldn't exist if prostitution laws and immigration policies allowed sex workers to travel for work INDEPENDENTLY, rather than forcing them to rely on agents and middle men to get them into other countries. Imagine if a Thai woman could organise her own visa, ring a Sydney brothel about employment, and have the brothel pay her airfare - which she could pay off in less than a day's work. Why would she go to a trafficker if it was that easy to do it herself? Government policies are to blame for trafficking and these global 'crackdowns' are only making things worse.

[Gentleman Travel]

An article about the UK trafficking documentary. http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9496/

By the way, the same docos are being made in every nation around the world at the moment. And I mean *exactly* the same docos...only the destination and country of origin changes. It's nothing but scaremongering.

Does trafficking and sexual abuse exist? Yes, it does (and it's a horrific crime that should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law). But is every migrant sex worker a kidnapped, tortured sex slave? Of course not. That is racist, patronising bullshit.
Absolutely! I saw a similar article about prostitution in Canada just this weekend.
Of course if you go looking for a particular story (entrapped sex workers) you can probably find it.

But if you visit 20 girls working off Craigslist or escort services from the phone book, you will probably find 20 freelancers who chose to work in this field for a variety of reasons - few of them related to lack of choice.

It is outrageous that anyone is forced into prostitution - yet it happens all the time, through various immigration schemes and scams and ethnic criminal gangs. Still, I expect those women are just a small fraction of the "working girls" in my country. If the government was really serious about fighting sex slavery, they could target these immigration scams easily. But governments and "save the hookers" women's groups choose to lump all sex-for-sale into the same pot. Treating a real problem and a non-problem with the same blunt, ineffective instruments.

[Gentleman Travel]

Didn't Craigslist in the US just have to shut down its "Adult Services" section recently? Previously they had to delist "Erotic Services" or whatever category they used. Then they migrated to something more vague. Now they are being driven out again. This is so silly! Do they want to drive hookers back onto street corners?

[Westy]

Didn't Craigslist in the US just have to shut down its "Adult Services" section recently? Previously they had to delist "Erotic Services" or whatever category they used. Then they migrated to something more vague. Now they are being driven out again. This is so silly! Do they want to drive hookers back onto street corners?
The story is ... yes, they have. Under the "services" section, where there used to be a subsection "adult services," there is now a black-box label "CENSORED". At least, that's the way it is in my local Craigslist.

This goes back to the same place as the British "Channel 4" flap. There are a fair number of bluenoses who believe that "sex is only for making children in holy matrimony; sex should not be for fun; sex out of wedlock is sinful and just flat wrong; sex-for-sale is UNCONSCIONABLE, HORRIBLE, and Society should spare no effort to shut it down!!!" Unfortunately, enough of those bluenoses are vocal and self-righteous enough to make these demands stick.

Add in the feminazi viewpoint that "men are insufferable and masculinity should be violently suppressed," throw in a bit of "Help I am a White Slave" bodice-ripping titillation, and you've got a story that should shock the church ladies and shame any man who has two testicles to rub against each other.

(By the way, Rubber Nursey's link led me to an interesting reference to Laura Agustin, and a neat phrase about these do-gooders: "The Rescue Industry.")

[Westy]

I'd like to put forth an idea of the morality, the value, of prostitution. ISG just might be an empathetic forum for this idea.

Prostitutes fulfill a desire to "feel loved," in the intimate ways, a desire felt by people who believe their needs are a great imposition on others. Prostitutes offer a simulacrum of "loving" for people who've given up on "finding love" in purely "social" terms. By renting access to their bodies, they get something they value (money) in exchange for something their clients value (sex). And they offer it with no strings attached ... play for pay ... on a cash basis. They give their clients something the clients can no longer find without paying for their play.

How many of us punters feel that way about sex and "love"? How many of us are mongering because we've given up "looking for love"? How many of us have come to the end of that road, and reached the conclusion that pay-for-play is the only way left for us to find the sweetness we've been dying for?

I woke up this morning with an insight that seems very fundamental, but it IS very uncomfortable: There's love that is giving, and love that is grasping. There's love that's expressed by fulfilling the other's needs, and there's love that's needy and grasping for one's needs to be fulfilled.

Wouldn't the ideal of love be one of trading? One of balance? One of filling the other's needs while the other fills your needs?

Seems to me that, in Western civilization, love has fallen into an imbalance. Too many women have reached the level of grasping all the guy has got, but scorning his needs - and tossing him aside when he has no more to give. To be fair, I have to acknowledge there are guys who grab all the "loving" (i.e. sexual favors) they can get, and discard their "used lovers" when they get attracted to a fresh target; and I also see the "rescuers" of both sexes, attracted by "fixing another's fatal flaws," the co-dependents of the world ... who get "taken," and then discarded, again and again and again.

Is it surprising when a man who has "given all he has to give," who has been bled dry and discarded, again and again, comes to a point where he won't do that any more? But who can he turn to when "Love" turns away?

AND YET: Prostitution is looked on with contempt - it's looked upon as "degrading." Paying for sex is looked on with special contempt, at the level of "How dare a man...?!" And the "paid player" is looked on, at best, as "the victim." (Cf: sexköpslagen, the Swedish "sex-buying" law.) What about the poor bastard who has been victimized, again and again, by the women to whom he's offered his love; who has reached the point where he'd rather pay cash for an hour's sweaty bed-bouncing companionship, than look for someone who's offering it "free" (but as bait)?

I ran into a very interesting phrase, about the sociology of sex work, on the "Border Thinking" web page of sociological maverick Laura Agustin:

I proposed a theoretical framework for the cultural study of commercial sex that would liberate researchers from the restrictions of a debate intensely meaningful to some but highly repressive to many others, centring on whether prostitution can ever be work or must be considered violence against women.
(Sexualities 2007: 10: 403) Notice the implication of that last phrase - "{prostitution} must be considered violence against women."

It leaves us with "woman the eternal victim," and man "the eternal villain." And it leaves as helpless, not worthy of help, those poor souls who are left emotionally with "nothing left to give."

Basically, the prostitute gives us at least a taste of "the sweetness." And I hold that to be moral.

Any comments?

[Gentleman Travel]

I proposed a theoretical framework for the cultural study of commercial sex
I would cut the debate a little shorter, Westy.
She talks about a "theoretical framework" as a good sociologist does.
But we all have intense PRACTICAL experience with commercial sex, albeit from the user's side, as opposed to the provider's side of things.

And we all know that many/most of the providers (at least in the western world) have made free, informed and on-going choices to perform this work.

So the idea that prostitution must necessarily be violence against women (which is a very common argument) is, in fact, a theoretical construct.

Of course, the counter-argument that feminist rescuers will make is that the working women do not understand the nature and extent of their victimhood.
Thus it is like trying to disprove a conspiracy theory - all the evidence to the contrary is dismissed as cover-up, thus becoming evidence of the conspiracy itself. Ahhh, I'm getting a headache...

[Westy]

I would cut the debate a little shorter...
We all have intense PRACTICAL experience with commercial sex, albeit from the user's side. And we all know that many/most of the providers (at least in the western world) have made free, informed and on-going choices to perform this work. So the idea that prostitution must necessarily be violence against women (which is a very common argument) is, in fact, a theoretical construct.

Ahhh, I'm getting a headache...
So am I, GT. Yes, I did get a little prolix with that post. But I'm still stuck on that "women as victims / men as the villains" dichotomy.

I can't say as my practical experience with commercial sex is all that "intense", but in the past 25 years it's all the sex I've known. (And that damn seldom!) I've had a lot more "intense" experience getting browbeaten with "rescuer rhetoric," hearing my sex blamed for "all that's wrong with the world," and having to choose between tongue-biting silence and getting in trouble with Authority.

I fear that American women regard the notion of sex with the likes of me as "degrading," right from the start. I try to salve my conscience with the notion that DR$1500, or PY$100K, is worth a lot more to the chica than it is to me, and that it might leave her feeling well-enough compensated for taking a shot of my leche. But I haven't felt "up" to booking the next sex vacation, because ... ya know ....

[Param Ahmad]

With her permission, I'm reproducing here the response I received from Rubber Nursey after I wrote to her asking if she'd ever met a woman who was trafficked and/or forced to work as a prostitute:

Hi Param :)

No, I have NEVER met a sex worker who was kidnapped and forced into an Australian brothel. (I have met, and was close friends with, a sex worker from Bulgaria who went through that ordeal in her home country, but she came to Australia by choice). I have met a few migrant workers who were tricked into thinking they would be doing waitressing, etc in Australia and when they got here, they were told they had to work in a brothel. HOWEVER...they were not FORCED to work in the brothels, with violence. They were just told that if they didn't agree to the work, they would be sent back home. Sure, it was a tough choice for those women, but it WAS a choice.

What I do meet, all the time, is migrant sex workers who came to Australia on contract (or "debt bondage"). This happens because our Govt treats all international sex workers as 'sex slaves' and makes it hard for them to come here independently, even though it is lawful for them to work in our sex industry. Instead of finding their own work and applying for their own visas, they are forced to employ agents (traffickers) to do it, who charge them thousands of dollars for the service, which they have to work off. People often confuse these contracts with people 'buying and selling' kidnapped and abused women. That is not the case. These contracts, while horrible, are freely entered into by sex workers...usually they are already working as sex workers in their own countries, and contracts are the only way they can get into my country to work.

I am NOT saying that forced prostitution doesn't exist. I'm just saying it isn't as common as people think it is. As you may know from my posts, I am part of an Australian sex worker association that runs large-scale projects in the Asia/Pacific region, working closely with international sex worker groups. We also run a trafficking prevention project in Australia. All our migration projects are staffed by international sex workers with personal experience and I have met thousands of sex workers in the twelve years I've been involved with this stuff.

RN
So gentlemen, while we should, of course, take appropriate action in defense of women by reporting the facts to appropriate authorities if it appears to us a woman has been kidnapped and forced into prostitution, we should at the same time not be made to feel guilty by misleading news reporting suggesting any man who spends money on prostitution is supporting violence against women, because that is rarely the case.

[Goga Fung]

I'd like to put forth an idea of the morality, the value, of prostitution. ISG just might be an empathetic forum for this idea.

Prostitutes fulfill a desire to "feel loved," in the intimate ways, a desire felt by people who believe their needs are a great imposition on others. Prostitutes offer a simulacrum of "loving" for people who've given up on "finding love" in purely "social" terms. By renting access to their bodies, they get something they value (money) in exchange for something their clients value (sex). And they offer it with no strings attached ... play for pay ... on a cash basis. They give their clients something the clients can no longer find without paying for their play.

How many of us punters feel that way about sex and "love"? How many of us are mongering because we've given up "looking for love"? How many of us have come to the end of that road, and reached the conclusion that pay-for-play is the only way left for us to find the sweetness we've been dying for?
......

Basically, the prostitute gives us at least a taste of "the sweetness." And I hold that to be moral.

Any comments?I can't agree more. I have had similar thoughts.

When a man cannot get what he needs from "regular" women for whatever reasons, often the only solution for him is going to SWs. Many others call him a "loser", which I believe is very wrong. Everybody has their own right to get their things the way they want or can.

Another case when SWs are needed is when you do not want to have any relationship with women on purpose, in order not to get emotionally into it, and also not to hurt them too. For example now I have several GFs, and know that I would not be with them anymore soon because have in mind another girl who is younger, innocent but not to be played with. But also know that the current GFs really hope to get serious, get married etc. They are trying hard. Some guys would not give a shit, but I would hate to get them hurt, upset, pissed when they realize I was just fucking around.

It is much simpler to have fun with girls who work for money. They can also be very nice persons, but than the relationship is much simpler and no extra expectations and broken hearts.

I believe this is much more moral than deceiving and upsetting "regular" girls.

[Rubber Nursey]

Of course, the counter-argument that feminist rescuers will make is that the working women do not understand the nature and extent of their victimhood.
This is routinely thrown at me and my fellow unrepentant wh*res... we're too fucked up to realise just how fucked up we are. It's an incredibly effective way of silencing sex workers who dare to deviate from the party line.

I can't tell you how upsetting it is to try and share positive sex work experiences with these people. It's like being trapped in a mental institution, trying to convince the doctors that you're sane! Enjoy the sex? Obviously abused as a child. Don't feel used by clients? Obviously have low self-esteem ....blah, blah, blah. There's always some tidy excuse for your aberrant (and unacceptable) positive attitude. You can't win.

Interestingly, there invariably comes a point in the conversation where you stop being the victim and become the perpetrator. Suddenly you're just "one of the lucky ones", who doesn't understand what REAL sex workers go through. You had more options, more education, you're the right colour, the right nationality, you just don't get what it's like for everyone else in the sex industry and your happy hooker propaganda is detrimental to all those poor prostituted women. Hell, we even make things hard for NON-sex working women, by encouraging men to see women as sex objects!

I find that second angle (the idea that we're somehow different from other sex workers) fascinating. Their ideas about sex work are so absolute, so entrenched, that a hooker who doesn't fit the mould is not even considered to be a hooker. And that goes doubly for male hookers.

[Bango Cheito]

"Normal" women I think are offended so much by sex workers because they know deep down somewhere how much better they must be in the sack, and also because they are doing in the open what most women WISH they could be doing but don't have the guts!

[Ryo Saeba]

Hello, everyone.

Most people writing here have been doing so for quite a while and are limited in number, as this thread doesn't attract a lot of new posters as far as I can tell. Also most of you have at some point outlined a few details of your lives and how you came to pay for sex, so I guess before I even write anything I should introduce myself to offer a field of reference for my ideas and opinions.

I'm in my early thirties, I grew up in a middle-class European family. When it comes to women, I had always been doing ok, as in more than the average guy but not nearly as much and as quality as I would have liked to. Then one day I started reading books about self improvement and male and female psychology. The results were quite impressive, as I developed a self confidence and an understanding of people which allowed me to have serious success with women. And it was back then (we're talking less than 4 years ago), that I started mongering. Exactly when I got to a point where I wasn't worried about "getting pussy" anymore, I decided it was ok to pay for it.

I never use prostitutes where I live, but I would not consider a holiday or even a weekend break that didn't offer the possibility of mongering.

So, the reason why I'm joining the ongoing discussion here is that would like to understand if:

A- I am really convinced that, within the boundaries of my own set of values, prostitution is moral

Or if

B- I'm trying hard to convince myself that it's ok because I enjoy it so much, but in reality deep down I think it's not.

To begin with, I'd like to be provocative and ask you this question: it would seem we have no born and bred Asian mongers actively involved in this thread (or at least none I could detect), yet it is in the various oriental cultures that prostitution is more generally accepted as a fact of life. Does it make sense to discuss this subject without their point of view? When I consider how much the input of Rubber Nursey is important to our musings, I can't help but wonder if by missing different perspectives we miss key factors in the equation.

Ryo

[Goga Fung]

To begin with, I'd like to be provocative and ask you this question: it would seem we have no born and bred Asian mongers actively involved in this thread (or at least none I could detect), yet it is in the various oriental cultures that prostitution is more generally accepted as a fact of life. Does it make sense to discuss this subject without their point of view? When I consider how much the input of Rubber Nursey is important to our musings, I can't help but wonder if by missing different perspectives we miss key factors in the equation.

RyoIn some Asian/Muslim cultures when a woman is getting married, the husband's family is required to pay money/gifts, etcc. To the bride's family. In many cases the bride does not have much choice. If her parents think the fiancee is good for her, and if he provide enough money/gifts, comes from a good family then they will allow marriage. And the "love" will come with time.

In a way it can be looked as some form of "prostitution". Maybe one-time "sale". Which is supposed to secure the woman's well being.

"regular" prostitution is pretty much the same, but it is multiple time sale, so that is is considered immoral.

[Rubber Nursey]

To begin with, I'd like to be provocative and ask you this question: it would seem we have no born and bred Asian mongers actively involved in this thread (or at least none I could detect), yet it is in the various oriental cultures that prostitution is more generally accepted as a fact of life. Does it make sense to discuss this subject without their point of view? When I consider how much the input of Rubber Nursey is important to our musings, I can't help but wonder if by missing different perspectives we miss key factors in the equation.
Hi, Ryo :)

I very much doubt that my input is important to anyone! Mine is just another point of view amongst many, but I guess I stand out as the only regular female poster. It would be nice if there were a few more women around and I absolutely agree with what you said about including the experiences of people from diverse cultures. Unfortunately, we can't control who pops their head into the Opinions threads and the majority of contributors over the years have been from 'Western' countries.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by prostitution being "generally accepted as a fact of life" in oriental cultures. Socially? Legally? Traditionally?

[Ryo Saeba]

hi, ryo

i'm not sure exactly what you mean by prostitution being "generally accepted as a fact of life" in oriental cultures. socially? legally? traditionally?hi rn,

i may not have chosen the correct words to express my thought, so i'll proceed by examples:

in japan and hong kong, after long business meetings and to celebrate deals, it has long been tradition to take customers to a "karaoke" or for a "massage".

women know about that. they may decide to believe their own husband doesn't indulge in prostitution, but they do know for a fact that the great majority of men does.

the same now happens in china and in most other south-east asian countries.

in thailand everyone knows what's going on, and apparently women take for granted that their men will have sex with other women, so better a prostitute than a possible "regular" rival. they also believe that prostitution helps prevent [CodeWord124] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124).

also i believe that in buddhism it's ok to pay women for sex.

yes, i know we cannot control who writes in here. but maybe we could invite someone?

in the thailand forum, in the "massage parlours – annies only" thread, aey (who is the mamasan for that establishment) contributes fairly regurarly and her english is up to the task. if anyone from here is a regular there he may ask her to join.

just an example.

ryo

[Gentleman Travel]

This just in ... not that P4P was a problem in Canada before, but now it is open season...


********** news story ***************
A ruling by the Ontario's Superior Court of Justice said the laws against keeping a common bawdy house, communicating for the purposes of prostitution and living on the avails of the trade "are not in accord with the principles of fundamental justice."

"These laws, individually and together, force prostitutes to choose between their liberty interest and their right to security of the person as protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms," Justice Susan Himel wrote her in 131-page decision which struck down those provisions.

"I find that the danger faced by prostitutes greatly outweighs any harm which may be faced by the public."

Dominatrix Terri-Jean Bedford and two other sex-trade workers went to Ontario's Superior Court of Justice to ask the court to rule on the Criminal Code laws relating to prostitution.

In an afternoon press conference Bedford said Tuesday was like emancipation day for sex-trade workers.

She said it is now up to Prime Minister Stephen Harper to deal with the situation.

In her ruling, Himel said Parliament had to "fashion corrective action" to put new laws in place.

"It is my view that in the meantime these unconstitutional provisions should be of no force and effect, particularly given the seriousness of the charter violations," Himel wrote.

"However, I also recognize that a consequence of this decision may be that unlicensed brothels may be operated, and in a way that may not be in the public interest."

The government argued removing the prohibitions without replacing them with new laws would "pose a danger to the public."

The decision is subjected to a 30-day stay and the federal government can seek an extension of that period.

The struck-down provisions deal with adult prostitution. Prostitution laws dealing with those under the age of 18 remain unaffected.

Prostitution is not illegal in Canada, but nearly everything related to it is.

The federal government has argued that prostitution is inherently dangerous, no matter where it is carried out.

It also argued that striking down the laws would make Canada a sex tourism destination.

The Christian Legal Fellowship, which was granted intervenor status, argued that prostitution "offends the conscience of ordinary Canadians."

With files from The Canadian Press

[Gentleman Travel]

Please forgive the barrage of articles on the court challenge to Canadian prostitution laws. But it has produced a number of news and opinion stories that deal with issues relevant to the overall debate in many countries....

www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/swedens-fix-jail-the-johns/article1735817/

"In 1999, Sweden took a pioneering approach: Rather than punish those who are sold for sex, the country holds the purchasers of sex acts liable. Without demand, there would be no sex trafficking and prostitution. "

This commentator, a university professor, advocates Swedish-style punishments for johns, without making the case that prostitution ought to be illegal (which it isn't in Canada). Notice the terminology used throughout the article - "those who are sold for sex". Never is it allowed that they are willing vendors or intelligent human beings making choices.

www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20100929/prostitution-laws-100929/

"Ron Marzel, one of the lawyers for the women who challenged the laws, says he was "thrilled" with Tuesday's decision which he says will protect sex workers, who should have the right to practise their profession safely.

"Certainly, we need social programs to make sure that children in the profession; however, the reality is there are consenting adults who want to go into this profession," he said on Canada AM.

"Falle [a former prostitute who now runs a gov't funded rescue centre for streetworkers] grew incensed at this, insisting that 97 per cent of prostitutes aren't in the sex trade by choice. She says the voices of the overwhelming majority of women who want to get out of prostitution are being drowned out by a vocal few."

So according to Falle, 97% of prostitutes are doing this against their will!!!
Mind you, even she doesn't pretend that they are all being coerced, only that they are not doing it by "choice". Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by choice. Personally, I would prefer not to be doing my current job either, but I keep doing it because my other options are less appealing (not working, less money, letting my family down), but I am not being coerced, and not in need of rescuing. Neither are most hookers.

Of course the reporters covering this story are out there talking to street hookers, who by and large are a sorry lot in this country - and I guess a lot of them have drug problems and perhaps few alternatives. But check out Craigslist girls and escort services and you meet a lot of women who chose sex work positively. They are college students or have other jobs and do this for the extra money. Would they rather be doing something other than fucking and sucking strangers for money? Probably, but not so much as they want nice clothes, a decent apartment or provide their kids with a certain lifestyle. Put in a law that makes them go back to working at McDonald's or as a waitress and none of them will thank you for it!

[Westy]

I'm re-reading E.E. Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful and I happened across a notation I'd made several years ago - it seems cogent to this thread:

Am I exploiting a woman or subsidizing her when I pay her for sex?

[Rubber Nursey]

am i exploiting a woman or subsidizing her when i pay her for sex?
subsidising? you're not subsidising anything. you're buying a service and paying her wages/commission/fees for that service.

i know that sounds like i'm just being pedantic, but the language we use around prostitution often feeds into the myths and stereotypes of what sex work really is. when clients say they are "subsidising" sex workers, or "supporting" them, or "helping them out" with a "bit of extra spending money", it makes it sound like something other than an income-generating occupation.

you can (hopefully!) see what i mean when you exchange sex worker with different occupations in your quote:
"am i exploiting a chef or subsidising her when i pay for a meal"?
"am i exploiting a lawyer or subsidising her when i pay her for legal advice"?

sure, a sex worker may be subsidising her regular income with part-time sex work...but that's very different to the idea of you subsidising her. you are paying her for a service. what percentage your payment contributes to her total income is none of your concern.

and, of course, many sex workers don't consider what they do to be a legitimate 'occupation'. that's not what i'm trying to say with this post. my point is that clients are not benevolent benefactors helping a young woman out of a tight spot - you are simply buyers, purchasing a product/service from a seller on the open market. every sex worker, regardless of whether they're a career wh*re or a struggling teen having sex for survival, is engaging in sex work for the same reasons that anyone engages in paid employment. every act of consensual commercial sex, regardless of personal motivations, is a job.

the same goes for other language around sex work that implies abuse or ownership or lack of personal agency. for example, people say they "purchase prostitutes", but they don't say they "purchase doctors". sex workers are defined as people who "sell their bodies", but massage therapists, catalogue models, labourers, etc aren't. (i mean, really...who doesn't use their body in their day-to-day employment?) to paraphrase a famous sex worker activist, "they say i'm selling my body, but i still have all the parts i started with".

i guess we could be really crass and say we "rent access" to sex workers' bodies, but that sounds a lot like necrophilia to me. do you guys pay sex workers to make their orifices available to you, or do you generally expect some kind of affection/noise/sexual response/conversation/etc as well? in which case, you are paying for an entire service, not just access to a vagina/mouth/anus.

moral of the story: sex workers sell sex and they do it to support themselves financially. (if they were just doing it for fun, they wouldn't charge for it). you, as clients, are paying their wages. why should you feel guilty about that?

[Westy]

Subsidising? You're not subsidising anything. You're buying a service and paying her wages/commission/fees for that service.

Moral of the story: Sex workers sell sex and they do it to support themselves financially. (If they were just doing it for fun, they wouldn't charge for it). You, as clients, are paying their wages. Why should you feel guilty about that?
Thank you, RN; as of now I see your point perfectly. "Supporting" or "helping out" or even "subsidising" wouldn't apply to P4P as much as it does to the "Western Union romance" situation that all too many guys have running with their Asian girlfriends.

Actually, I'm sure you could see this as more a rhetorical question than a practical one. But USA males are encouraged, rather demanded, to "feel guilty" about anything whatsoever that has to do with "our lusts". At least the modern rhetoric leaves out "sinful".

[Rubber Nursey]

But USA males are encouraged, rather demanded, to "feel guilty" about anything whatsoever that has to do with "our lusts". At least the modern rhetoric leaves out "sinful".
I keep hearing this from men and I'm gonna say something that many of you aren't gonna take kindly to...women have been dealing with that shit for centuries. Female desire has traditionally been condemned, stifled, feared, even criminalised, and sexual double standards are just as entrenched in our culture today as they ever were. Women have always been made to feel guilty and ashamed of our lust (or deny it exists at all). We have always had to make a choice between sexual gratification and social acceptance. That is our reality. And now, I guess it's yours, too.

One of my favourite quotes from Eleanor Roosevelt:
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".

Sex is natural, healthy, fulfilling and fun. I've had a whole lot of enjoyable sex in my lifetime and I flatly refuse to feel guilty about that. You shouldn't, either. Don't allow other people to dump their shame and insecurities on your shoulders.

Another quote from Eleanor Roosevelt:
"The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience".

[Gentleman Travel]

I keep hearing this from men and I'm gonna say something that many of you aren't gonna take kindly to... Sex is natural, healthy, fulfilling and fun. I've had a whole lot of enjoyable sex in my lifetime and I flatly refuse to feel guilty about that. You shouldn't, either. Don't allow other people to dump their shame and insecurities on your shoulders.
Actually, I DO take kindly to this statement and wish it was printed on the cover of every women's self-help magazine out there.

But I hope you will not be offended if I still don't see Eleanor Roosevelt as my ideal sex kitten plaything, no matter how clever and witty she was...

[Bango Cheito]

I keep hearing this from men and I'm gonna say something that many of you aren't gonna take kindly to...women have been dealing with that shit for centuries. Female desire has traditionally been condemned, stifled, feared, even criminalised, and sexual double standards are just as entrenched in our culture today as they ever were. Women have always been made to feel guilty and ashamed of our lust (or deny it exists at all). We have always had to make a choice between sexual gratification and social acceptance. That is our reality. And now, I guess it's yours, too.


Yeah no shit, some fucking sexual revolution. Now men have the blocks put to them the same as women do. WTF is all that fucking bullshit about.

I feel the same way, I will NOT bow down or apologize to ANYBODY for having had a lot of sexual partners. I'm fucking PROUD of it :S

[Praj4]

I was in Grand Rapids MI for a evening and I called an escort for an outcall at my room in hotel based on advt in yellow pages; viz. girlfriend experience, and LO; a mother of one kid with lot of stretch matrks visited my room. She was half arab though american by birth. As usual we have to pay upfront which I did. After some time she said she forgot condoms, which I had to produce from my stock; again after some time she said she has to get her bag from car from parking lot of hotel. And before I could protest or argue, she dressed and went leaving only her socks as if enough colateral; never to return. Senior mongers, pl advise how would you manage such situations? This is my first experience of Major CHEATING / Fraud Be carefule of this half Arab girl, its the pressure of motherhood probably makes her so mean minded and cheat and not her ethnicity

[Rubber Nursey]

Yeah no shit, some fucking sexual revolution. Now men have the blocks put to them the same as women do. WTF is all that fucking bullshit about.
Pathetic, isn't it. Instead of giving sexual equality to women, we're dragging men back down to our level.

Mind you, that's just one part of an overall backward shift in personal freedoms, across the board. We're seeing worldwide backflips on prostitution, pornography, condom promotion, sexual health education, contraception, abortion, HIV criminalisation, illicit drugs, gay rights, alcohol and cigarettes, no-fault divorce. We've got doctors promoting abstinence, governments funding "Christian Values" education in schools, feminists and organised religion joining forces against the sex industry.

It's an age-old political (and military) tactic to control the masses. Deprive them of physical/social release; make them stressed, downtrodden and needy; then fill the void with fear and loathing of a common enemy.

[Kattt]

Pathetic, isn't it. Instead of giving sexual equality to women, we're dragging men back down to our level.

Mind you, that's just one part of an overall backward shift in personal freedoms, across the board. We're seeing worldwide backflips on prostitution, pornography, condom promotion, sexual health education, contraception, abortion, HIV criminalisation, illicit drugs, gay rights, alcohol and cigarettes, no-fault divorce. We've got doctors promoting abstinence, governments funding "Christian Values" education in schools, feminists and organised religion joining forces against the sex industry.

It's an age-old political (and military) tactic to control the masses. Deprive them of physical/social release; make them stressed, downtrodden and needy; then fill the void with fear and loathing of a common enemy.I wrote a fairly extensive college essay on Prostitution (for a female professor nonetheless, who gave me an A) I'm hardly an expert, but I play one on TV. :) There are multiple branches of feminism, but they're mainly divided into two categories.

Liberal feminism - These are the "gender equality" feminists. Basically, these are the feminists who typically believe that women should be as sexually open as men, and they often see prostitution and pornography as empowering to women, as it gives women control over their own sexuality and their own bodies.

Radical feminism - These are basically the "man-hating" feminists, who believe that women and men are at war, and that sex is man's way of maintaining domination over women. These are the nutjobs who have joined with the religious folk in order to bring sex back into the dark ages.

Many of the liberal feminist positions, I can see myself agreeing with wholeheartedly, such as equal pay for equal work, and full reproductive rights (abortion). The radical "men are dogs" feminists seem to be the ones influencing most of the policy lately, because (due to their alliance with the religious folk) they have large numbers, and draw in people from both sides of the political spectrum.

Anyway, just wanted to express my view that not all feminism is bad and anti-man. Just certain branches of it, and I give as much blame to the religious folk as I do to the radical feminists for the direction that things are heading.

[Hebrides]

Rubber Nursey, Bango Chieto and others:

I hear ya.

It just amazes me that in 2010 there is still so much uptightness and condemnation towards human sexuality.

Here is one of my favorite quotes by H.L. Mencken:

"Puritanism is the haunting suspicion that someone, somewhere is having a good time..."

[Sexwisher]

I'd like to put forth an idea of the morality, the value, of prostitution. ISG just might be an empathetic forum for this idea.

Prostitutes fulfill a desire to "feel loved," in the intimate ways, a desire felt by people who believe their needs are a great imposition on others. Prostitutes offer a simulacrum of "loving" for people who've given up on "finding love" in purely "social" terms. By renting access to their bodies, they get something they value (money) in exchange for something their clients value (sex). And they offer it with no strings attached ... play for pay ... on a cash basis. They give their clients something the clients can no longer find without paying for their play.

How many of us punters feel that way about sex and "love"? How many of us are mongering because we've given up "looking for love"? How many of us have come to the end of that road, and reached the conclusion that pay-for-play is the only way left for us to find the sweetness we've been dying for?

I woke up this morning with an insight that seems very fundamental, but it IS very uncomfortable: There's love that is giving, and love that is grasping. There's love that's expressed by fulfilling the other's needs, and there's love that's needy and grasping for one's needs to be fulfilled.

Wouldn't the ideal of love be one of trading? One of balance? One of filling the other's needs while the other fills your needs?

Seems to me that, in Western civilization, love has fallen into an imbalance. Too many women have reached the level of grasping all the guy has got, but scorning his needs - and tossing him aside when he has no more to give. To be fair, I have to acknowledge there are guys who grab all the "loving" (i.e. sexual favors) they can get, and discard their "used lovers" when they get attracted to a fresh target; and I also see the "rescuers" of both sexes, attracted by "fixing another's fatal flaws," the co-dependents of the world ... who get "taken," and then discarded, again and again and again.

Is it surprising when a man who has "given all he has to give," who has been bled dry and discarded, again and again, comes to a point where he won't do that any more? But who can he turn to when "Love" turns away?

AND YET: Prostitution is looked on with contempt - it's looked upon as "degrading." Paying for sex is looked on with special contempt, at the level of "How dare a man...?!" And the "paid player" is looked on, at best, as "the victim." (Cf: sexköpslagen, the Swedish "sex-buying" law.) What about the poor bastard who has been victimized, again and again, by the women to whom he's offered his love; who has reached the point where he'd rather pay cash for an hour's sweaty bed-bouncing companionship, than look for someone who's offering it "free" (but as bait)?

I ran into a very interesting phrase, about the sociology of sex work, on the "Border Thinking" web page of sociological maverick Laura Agustin:
Notice the implication of that last phrase - "{prostitution} must be considered violence against women."

It leaves us with "woman the eternal victim," and man "the eternal villain." And it leaves as helpless, not worthy of help, those poor souls who are left emotionally with "nothing left to give."

Basically, the prostitute gives us at least a taste of "the sweetness." And I hold that to be moral.

Any comments?There is nothing more immoral than a society that considers prostitution immoral, and, even more, illegal. Because it kills the single market where some men can find these human experiences. This will force these men into deep depression due to lack of human experiences that enrich their life and define their place in the society. I call this to be beyond vileness. Fortunately, prostitution can't be eradicated even in these vile societies, but only in small cities with weak markets where prostitution vanishes due to the lack of cash flow and proper conditions. Therefore men will either adjust themselves in terms of cash and personality to the requirements of local women, leave the town for a better place to work, get payed and have sex, or ...buy larger hard drives and stand social obliteration... Condemning men to such a fate is the crime of the "moral" societies.

[Chica Luv]

DH
You are one funny fucker (I mean that in a loving manner)! Thanks for sharing your vast wealth of experience and insight.

I hope to visit your neck of the woods....soon.
XOXO
Chica Luv


"Originally Posted by Dickhead
You might even have the potential to get to know a few women on a personal basis, and it might open your eyes"
....
So to keep this in a light-hearted spirit I will close with a joke:

Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A: Because they all have Lucas refrigerators.

[Westy]

The Economist printed an article last week, that seems pertinent to our discussions in this thread:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2010/10/making_sex_work_safe
Thought you might be interested....

[Henri Dufresne]

It is a personal opinion.

I am french. And I think all male westerner face the same issue. Today in the west, women are very psychological, there is lots of complicated situations, lots of money spent on her and very few sex. I am telling you so after visiting All countries from west europe and north america. So I am a pragmatic person. I saw western women are not able to balance their lack of beauty and male bashing with humour, personality, fun, art, wealth and "easygoingness". Relationship with a western woman is a loose loose situation. No sex and male bashing.

I punted primarily with east european girls, russians and north african women. I discovered quickly it would allow me to access beautiful women who were more beautiful and easygoing than any women I met before. Also, situations were always more simple while punting with women than trying to have a normal relationship with a western woman. Furthermore, I am convinced it can be even cheaper to punt than dating lots of western women. While men are mongering they are concerned about the money they spend but in most cases you have your pay back because you have sexual intercourses. With western women, you spend money, it is socially accepted but you are likely to have no pay back. I spent money in restaurants, car gas, phone, nightclubs, clothing. For those expenses I didn't have a payback most of the time.

So, you are really subsidizing women if you date them with no payback. While mongering, everything is very straight forward. I don't want to get into social and feminist considerations. I just don't want to enter the debate. It is here you get it and that's all. Unfortunately, male female relationships as portrayed in hollywood movies don't exist. I constantly see men who are exploited by their girlfriends, I constantly see men who are in trouble and get lots of stress from their wives. It is something I don't want to get into. I don't want to live as a slave. From a male female relationship point of view, men are free all over the world, but they decide to be women' slaves. Nature gave the opportunity for a man to be active sexually all his life. Nature gave him the opportunity to have several sex partners. Things are that simple. Then money is just an object. We give importance to money but it is just paper. In the realworld, the ends is the most important. Will you get a GFE experience, will you get a nice blowjob, will you have a nice fuck. This is the real important aspect for a man in his sexual life. The other subjects around it are just psychological. I think lots of men should take this opportunity to be men. Your body appearance will decline less faster than a woman body. You don't have biological clock issue and the need to get children quickly before you get older. So nature provided you the opportunity to have fun with sex as long as you are healthy. Why not taking this opportunity?

[Uni Den]

Just came across this video and it really shows the attitude of society towards women who either are SW or victim of prostitution.

The only message I want to pass via this is that treat women with respect and not a sex object. Althou this forum is to help each other and share the sexual experiences we have with the "other women", it also is against humanity to abuse such women either verbally, physically or sexually.

SW too are human beings and deserve respect just like the way you and me do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeOumyTMCI8

Thanks

[Britisher]

It is a personal opinion.

I am french. And I think all male westerner face the same issue. Today in the west, women are very psychological, there is lots of complicated situations, lots of money spent on her and very few sex. I am telling you so after visiting All countries from west europe and north america. So I am a pragmatic person. I saw western women are not able to balance their lack of beauty and male bashing with humour, personality, fun, art, wealth and "easygoingness". Relationship with a western woman is a loose loose situation. No sex and male bashing.

I punted primarily with east european girls, russians and north african women. I discovered quickly it would allow me to access beautiful women who were more beautiful and easygoing than any women I met before. Also, situations were always more simple while punting with women than trying to have a normal relationship with a western woman. Furthermore, I am convinced it can be even cheaper to punt than dating lots of western women. While men are mongering they are concerned about the money they spend but in most cases you have your pay back because you have sexual intercourses. With western women, you spend money, it is socially accepted but you are likely to have no pay back. I spent money in restaurants, car gas, phone, nightclubs, clothing. For those expenses I didn't have a payback most of the time.

So, you are really subsidizing women if you date them with no payback. While mongering, everything is very straight forward. I don't want to get into social and feminist considerations. I just don't want to enter the debate. It is here you get it and that's all. Unfortunately, male female relationships as portrayed in hollywood movies don't exist. I constantly see men who are exploited by their girlfriends, I constantly see men who are in trouble and get lots of stress from their wives. It is something I don't want to get into. I don't want to live as a slave. From a male female relationship point of view, men are free all over the world, but they decide to be women' slaves. Nature gave the opportunity for a man to be active sexually all his life. Nature gave him the opportunity to have several sex partners. Things are that simple. Then money is just an object. We give importance to money but it is just paper. In the realworld, the ends is the most important. Will you get a GFE experience, will you get a nice blowjob, will you have a nice fuck. This is the real important aspect for a man in his sexual life. The other subjects around it are just psychological. I think lots of men should take this opportunity to be men. Your body appearance will decline less faster than a woman body. You don't have biological clock issue and the need to get children quickly before you get older. So nature provided you the opportunity to have fun with sex as long as you are healthy. Why not taking this opportunity?Excellently written. My views are exactly the same. Had I the need to write on this topic, I would write almost 99% similar!

[Westy]

Just came across this video and it really shows the attitude of society towards women who either are SW or victim of prostitution.

The only message I want to pass via this is that treat women with respect and not a sex object. Althou this forum is to help each other and share the sexual experiences we have with the "other women", it also is against humanity to abuse such women either verbally, physically or sexually.

SW too are human beings and deserve respect just like the way you and me do. "Victim" is a blameful label, Uni Den. There can't be a victim without one or more victimizers.

"Victim of prostitution" is straight out of the Swedish model and the "Kvinnofrid" law. It carries a heavy freight of blame, calumny, scorn, and intent to humiliate the monger. It says the sex worker deserves respect, but the sex buyer deserves blame and shame.

I respect women, frankly, more than I respect myself. I treat them with dignity and reserve. I assume they want nothing to do with me sexually, and I'm careful to mask any prurient interest I may feel for them. I have decades of practice at keeping my thoughts and my desires to myself, and stripping any sexual awareness from my behavior.

This makes it very difficult for me to "shop around," either for a potential girlfriend or for a potential P4P vendor. It makes me quite inarticulate when it comes to expressing my sexual interest, and pretty-much blind to the signals a woman might be broadcasting to say she's available; or that she's selling what I want to buy. It also makes me a prime customer for sex workers, but I can't find my way to the door of the store; a woman pretty much has to drag me in by the prick, wave it in my face, and even then I might be too respectful of her personhood to understand her offer.

So she gets my respect, as a person; but because I'm too respectful to recognize her as a vendor, she doesn't get my job or my money.

Tell me, is that the respect a SW deserves? And, by the way, does this make me a "victim of feminism"?

[Dickhead]

Come to Argentina, Westy. Ray Charles could recognize who the providers are here. Personally I can spot a hooker 1, 000 yards away and have won several bets this way.

[Westy]

come to argentina, westy. ray charles could recognize who the providers are here. personally i can spot a hooker 1, 000 yards away and have won several bets this way.thank you, dh, you may be right. to paraphrase, even a blind squirrel can occasionally bust a nut.

but that's beside the point.

the "morality of prostitution," as a subject of discussion, gets hijacked in public debate by the politics of victimhood. i'm not saying that to dismiss the fact that people do get victimized, because they certainly do! but i do wish to point out that many people, groups, organizations, use "victimhood" as a code for "somebody else is to blame." as i said,"victim" presupposes "victimizers," another term for "villain"; and when the "victimization" has anything to do with sex, you can bet that some guy, or guys, or guys in general, are going to be tarred and feathered as the villains.

how does prostitution become "victimization"? certainly a woman who's forced to put out for pay, by a pimp or "the mob," is a bona-fide victim. a woman who's beat up or injured for not playing-for-pay, is definitely a victim of more than prostitution. a victim of violence. just as a woman who is forced into sex is a bona-fide victim of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).

but the swedish model says that any woman who offers her sexual favors for "cash at the counterpane" is a victim, a "poor misguided creature" who needs society's help. and, at the same time, any man who agrees to pay her for a romp in the bedsheets is victimizing her and is subject to arrest, prosecution, persecution, shaming, and all the calumny the "decent populace" can cast upon him. there is no "shame" in swedish jurisprudence in her offering her honor; but the full weight of law and public scorn is dumped on the poor horny bloke who honors her offer!

in other words, the john is the villain of the piece, guilty of having blue-balls and being willing to pay for some tail.

i concede the principle of "victims of prostitution." the poor misguided ladies of sosua in the dominican republic, getting thrown in the clink for walking the wrong street at the wrong time of day, i'd say they are "victims of prostitution"; especially since there is nothing in dom rep jurisprudence that holds prostitution illegal! a girl who is thrown out and shunned by her family for "turning tricks" is a victim, too; but less of "prostitution" than of the family's sense of outraged honor. a girl who is forced or coerced into playing-for-pay is the victim of that force or coercion; and the people who force or coerce her into prostitution are villains in the truest sense of the world.

but what about the girl who got knocked up at sixteen, back in the barrio, and is turning tricks to pay for her baby's needs? is she a "victim of prostitution," or smiply a victim of a low-life boyfriend who didn't man up and take care of the baby he sired? and if i meet up with her, meet her price, and pay for play, am i her customer (as we'd prefer to label ourselves) or am i victimizing her by the act of paying for play?

refer back to the swedish model, and you find that we men are the 'victimizers', just because we offered money!

that's why i'm hypersensitive to the "victim" label, especially in anything dealing with sexual behavior. it clearly implies that it's all men's fault.

(i still would like to hear uni den's argument as to whether or not i'm a "victim of feminism.")

[Dickhead]

I don't know if you are a victim of feminism but you do display a victim mentality at times. I get why that might be but I think the solution is to monger a lot more often. But then I think mongering more often is the solution to most of life's problems. The remaining ones can be handled with beer.

[Westy]

I don't know if you are a victim of feminism but you do display a victim mentality at times. I get why that might be but I think the solution is to monger a lot more often. But then I think mongering more often is the solution to most of life's problems. The remaining ones can be handled with beer.You could be right; my habitual defensiveness, my expectation of getting snubbed (at best) for showing any interest in a woman, my anger at being cast as the villain in the sexual drama, and my feeling that I can't do anything about it. That may add up to a be a "victim mentality" on my part.

But, in the post-N.O.W. world, I can't be a victim because I have a cock and a pair of spherical ornaments behind it; I won't say I have "balls," because the argument can be so clearly made that I'm not using them as balls. But "being convex, in the matter of sex" is the badge of the victimizer, the villain, in today's sexual scenario.

I don't like being cast as the villain. I find it even more disagreeable than I find 'going without sex'. I would rather jerk off, than be the villain.

Is mongering the answer, for my mind-set? I wish I had confidence that it could be. But when the opinion-leaders go on and on about "the victims of prostitution," making it clear that "prostitutes are the victims," well, the other side of that coin is the "victimizer". And according to the Swedish model and the Kvinnofrid law,"the victimizer is, ultimately, the guy who offers money for sex. It's his money that makes the sex-market profitable, together with [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) and all the abuses therein."

That "Swedish model" is being pushed, hard, worldwide. And according to that model, I am the villain just for wanting some toto, and being willing, nay eager, to pay for the play.

Pardon my rant, but that's what REALLY rattles my cage.

[Dickhead]

Well, they aren't pushing the Swedish Model in Argentina or Paraguay yet.

[Ararat]

according to the Swedish model and the Kvinnofrid law,"the victimizer is, ultimately, the guy who offers money for sex. It's his money that makes the sex-market profitable, together with [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) and all the abuses therein."

That "Swedish model" is being pushed, hard, worldwide. And according to that model, I am the villain just for wanting some toto, and being willing, nay eager, to pay for the play.

Pardon my rant, but that's what REALLY rattles my cage. I live in Sweden and am very familiar with the thinking behind the law. I have never met a foreigner, male or female, who agree with the ideas of this law. This doesn't prevent the whackos in charge to push for it. On the bright side, just recently there was a note in the newspaper about some EU-issue where the Swedish spokeswoman confirmed that the other EU countries weren't receptive to the idea of the Swedish law.

I go to Germany once in a while and then I go to FKK clubs. A perhaps unintended consequence of the law is that prices have gone up so much that even if I didn't get my trips paid for by my employer it would still be cheaper to buy a plane ticket and a hotel room for one night to spend 30 minutes with a FKK girl than mongering in Sweden.

A link for you Westy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/01/goran-lindberg-sweden-crime-palme

[Westy]

i live in sweden and am very familiar with the thinking behind the law. i have never met a foreigner, male or female, who agree with the ideas of this law. this doesn't prevent the whackos in charge to push for it. on the bright side, just recently there was a note in the newspaper about some eu-issue where the swedish spokeswoman confirmed that the other eu countries weren't receptive to the idea of the swedish law.

i go to germany once in a while and then i go to fkk clubs. a perhaps unintended consequence of the law is that prices have gone up so much that even if i didn't get my trips paid for by my employer it would still be cheaper to buy a plane ticket and a hotel room for one night to spend 30 minutes with a fkk girl than mongering in sweden.

a link for you westy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/01/goran-lindberg-sweden-crime-palme

göran lindberg's story is one i would describe as "villainous victimization," to an extreme. certainly if he really was playing the kind of game of which he was accused.


in january this year, following a six-month investigation, lindberg was arrested. at the time of his apprehension he was allegedly on his way to meet a 14-year-old girl in a hotel encounter that was also due to feature a number of other men. it was said that in his car was a bag containing leather whips, handcuffs and a blindfold.chilling.

so let's view lindberg's story from the feminist-nanny-statist-media perspective of "guilty until, and even if, proven innocent." and let's extend the argument, or rather the polemic, into "proof that even the most sympathetic male, the male staunchest in his work against sexism, the most articulate spokesperson for sexual equality and for giving sympathetic help to the marginalized poor working girls, will have a seamy dark villainous side. it shows you that all men are potential victimizers, [CodeWord127] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127), sexual abusers, oppressors, etc, etc, ad nauseam."


the sex worker, according to conventional intellectual wisdom, is in a weak position, socially and financially, and lacks power in any transaction with the consumer. therefore she can't be said to be acting of her own free will, particularly, of course, if she has been trafficked and effectively held prisoner.

that's been the game plan since the 1970s: woman=victim; male=oppressor.

geez, if i'm "the oppressor," just by dint of being male, why do i feel so damn oppressed?

i hope for your sake, ararat, that the swedes never get the germans to close the fkk clubs.

[NicFrenchy]

That "Swedish model" is being pushed, hard, worldwide. And according to that model, I am the villain just for wanting some toto, and being willing, nay eager, to pay for the play.

Pardon my rant, but that's what REALLY rattles my cage. They can always try to push it but won't succeed in my parts. I live in Asia (Thailand especially) and it's no wonder that with dumb models like the swedish one, we see sex tourists going more and more to Asia (south east asia to be more correct).

There are still countries where the monger is seen as a regular man.

[Ararat]

I live in Asia (Thailand especially) and it's no wonder that with dumb models like the swedish one, we see sex tourists going more and more to Asia (south east asia to be more correct).

A week ago or so the Swedish tabloid Expressen published a few articles about the "other" Thailand the charter tourists don't see. About old Swedish men marrying much younger Thai women and of course an article from Pattaya about the sex trade. I have read another article in a Swedish newspaper recently and it seems these female journalists have just discovered that mongers aren't always dirty old men.

The horror that young attractive guys who could get Swedish pussy decides to monger...

[LittleTruths]

I'd like to put forth an idea of the morality, the value, of prostitution. ISG just might be an empathetic forum for this idea.

Prostitutes fulfill a desire to "feel loved," in the intimate ways, a desire felt by people who believe their needs are a great imposition on others. Prostitutes offer a simulacrum of "loving" for people who've given up on "finding love" in purely "social" terms. By renting access to their bodies, they get something they value (money) in exchange for something their clients Value (sex). And they offer it with no strings attached. Play for pay. On a cash basis. They give their clients something the clients can no longer find without Paying for their play.

How many of us punters feel that way about sex and "love"? How many of us are mongering because we've given up "looking for love"? How many of us have come to the end of that road, and reached the conclusion that pay-for-play is the only way left for us to find the sweetness we've been dying for?

I woke up this morning with an insight that seems very fundamental, but it IS very uncomfortable: There's love that is giving, and love that is grasping. There's love that's expressed by fulfilling the other's needs, and there's love that's needy and grasping for one's needs to be fulfilled.

Wouldn't the ideal of love be one of trading? One of balance? One of filling the other's needs while the other fills your needs?

Seems to me that, in Western civilization, love has fallen into an imbalance. Too many women have reached the level of grasping all the guy has got, but scorning his needs. And tossing him aside when he has no more to give. To be fair, I have to acknowledge there are guys who grab all the "loving" (I. E. Sexual favors) they Can get, and discard their "used lovers" when they get attracted to a fresh target; and I also see the "rescuers" of both sexes, attracted by "fixing another's fatal flaws," the co-dependents of the world. Who get "taken," and then discarded, again and again and again.

Is it surprising when a man who has "given all he has to give," who has been bled dry and discarded, again and again, comes to a point where he won't do that any more? But who can he turn to when "Love" turns away?

AND YET: Prostitution is looked on with contempt. It's looked upon as "degrading." Paying for sex is looked on with special contempt, At the level of "How dare a man?" And the "paid player" is looked on, at best, as "the victim." (Cf: sexköpslagen, The Swedish "sex-buying" law.) What about the poor bastard who has been victimized, again and again, by the women to whom he's offered his love; who has reached the point where he'd rather pay cash for an hour's sweaty bed-bouncing companionship, than look for someone who's offering it "free" (but as bait)?

I ran into a very interesting phrase, about the sociology of sex work, on the "Border Thinking" web page of sociological maverick Laura Agustin:

Notice the implication of that last phrase. "{prostitution} must be considered violence against women."

It leaves us with "woman the eternal victim," and man "the eternal villain." And it leaves as helpless, not worthy of help, those poor souls who are left emotionally with "nothing left to give."

Basically, the prostitute gives us at least a taste of "the sweetness." And I hold that to be moral.

Any comments? Very true, well thought, well put down and touching as well.

It is disturbingly sad to think that mostly, the chances one has when it comes to relationships are either to be a "grasper" or a "rescuer".

It's like having to chose between the frying pan or the fire itself.

As a "rescuer", you end up giving and giving and giving all you can, in the hope that you may, as you should, get some of all that love back for your own delight, but in reality you happen to give it to the "wrong" people, and somewhere down the line you just give up even entertaining the thought of managing to build such a rewarding relationship.

As a "grasper". Well, I can't really express first hand what it has to be like to be like that. What I have seen tho, is that usually the "grasper seems to be somewhat of a less "emotionally developed" human being, either due to some personal issues or simply because they never happened to fully develope into what they could have been.

The graspers take whatever they can but during the whole process they turn out to be shallow.

They are, in my humble experience, very fascinated by the emotional depths offered by an "emotionally developed" partner, but sadly they know not what to do with it.

You can guide them, taking them by the hand and show them the way, but they just can't make their way on their own and this in turn ends up being a very unrewarding relationship for you.

They just fail, fail to meet your needs and fail to be good enough to keep you.

You get hurt. Eventually you give up and walk away.

They realize what they have lost when it's too late already.

There is no point in having a bunch of women all around the world saying that you have been and will forever be the love of their life, when you have given all that to them and they gave you nowhere near as much.

As a final thought tho, by no means I'd like to be I their shoes.

[Dickhead]

prostitution is violence against men, not against women. you don't believe me, trying fucking these guaraní chicas. they just brutally [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) you. i don't know what the hell that position is called but my dick doesn't bend that way, baby! and the reverse asian cowgirl is extremely violent as well.

especially when they miss!

[Bango Cheito]

A week ago or so the Swedish tabloid Expressen published a few articles about the "other" Thailand the charter tourists don't see. About old Swedish men marrying much younger Thai women and of course an article from Pattaya about the sex trade. I have read another article in a Swedish newspaper recently and it seems these female journalists have just discovered that mongers aren't always dirty old men.

The horror that young attractive guys who could get Swedish pussy decides to monger. Sweden likes to sell itself to the rest of the world as this free-love capital where guys and girls all hook up with each other because they are really attracted to each other, but I think it's a big lie and I imagine Sweden as a very sexless place these days. I don't have any personal experience either way, but it seems to me from where I'm standing that their precious model is not working out so well.

[Dickhead]

I have not been to Sweden but I just fucked an Argentinean hooker who has been there twice. From her point of view, Swedish men "wear the skirts in the family." We just talked about this today. She used as an example, that in the grocery store parking lot, the woman gets behind the wheel of the car while the man loads the groceries in the car. She feels this is very strange. I told her about how it was legal for women to sell pussy but not for men to buy it and she flat out did not believe me. I told her I thought it was great that the woman always drove. That puzzled her."Why?" "So I can drink!" Now THAT she understood.

She and I have had a couple of discussions on the morality of prostitution over the years. Her point of view boils down to a pretty typical Catholic mentality: "If it's bad God will forgive me because being able to send my kid to private school has to be more good than this could bad." About half the time I point out there is no god and about half the time I just let it go. Of course to her mind she is no longer a prostitute since she has a boyfriend. When I stick fifty bucks in her purse that is something else to her, somehow.

But not to me.

[Westy]

prostitution is violence against men, not against women. you don't believe me, trying fucking these guaraní chicas. they just brutally [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) you. i don't know what the hell that position is called but my dick doesn't bend that way, baby! and the reverse asian cowgirl is extremely violent as well.

especially when they miss! ooooh, it hurts to think about that!

guarani? that happened to you in paraguay?

[Westy]

Sweden likes to sell itself to the rest of the world as this free-love capital where guys and girls all hook up with each other because they are really attracted to each other, but I think it's a big lie and I imagine Sweden as a very sexless place these days. I don't have any personal experience either way, but it seems to me from where I'm standing that their precious model is not working out so well.Could it be they didn't recognize that the adjective "neutral" shares its roots with the verb "neuter"?

I don't think it was chosen to "enhance the happiness" of the Swedish people. I believe the Swedish model was concocted to "demonstrate and enhance the liberated (feminst) and progressive dynamic of Swedish society."

Won't be going there, no matter how lovely the blondes may be. 'Nuff said.

[Dickhead]

I have fucked numerous Guaraní in both Paraguay and in Argentina. That facing scissors position they like is a real ***** at my age.

[Westy]

I have fucked numerous Guaraní in both Paraguay and in Argentina. That facing scissors position they like is a real ***** at my age.Oh yeah, the Iguazu nutcracker.

[Dickhead]

yeah, that one. and some of those women hiss like snakes when they get turned on. and they bite. also they tell you to make sure to pull out and then they wrap their legs around you and start screaming "dame toda tu leche en mi concha toda toda toda."

try withdrawing your informed consent at that fucking point! so it's obviously [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).

[MeatMan]

One of the things I like about being a man is that I refuse to call myself a victim. No matter What the circumstance.

No sports program?, Workout and play on your own. No college? Go to the library. Prostitutes? Look harder. Overseas.

Take some personal responsibility. So what if things aren't handed to you on a silver platter anymore. Man the fuck up.

[Furysys]

And don't think the MDE girls can be any less painful. Once they get on top and start bouncing up and down,

You and your johnson are going to have one helluva workout, like the one I was with in Tatianas.

[Essen49]

Sweden likes to sell itself to the rest of the world as this free-love capital where guys and girls all hook up with each other because they are really attracted to each other, but I think it's a big lie and I imagine Sweden as a very sexless place these days. I don't have any personal experience either way, but it seems to me from where I'm standing that their precious model is not working out so well.As someone who's been to Sweden often enough I can assure you the country is anything but sexless. And Swedish women are very outgoing and assertive when it comes to sex. What's not to enjoy about that?

The laws against P4P are ridiculous and mostly ignored. Remember the Swedes also used to have very strict laws regulating the sale of alcohol and those didn't stop anyone from drinking either.

You can't outlaw human nature is what it all comes down to and any attempts to do so are doomed to fail.

[Bango Cheito]

As someone who's been to Sweden often enough I can assure you the country is anything but sexless. And Swedish women are very outgoing and assertive when it comes to sex. What's not to enjoy about that?

The laws against P4P are ridiculous and mostly ignored. Remember the Swedes also used to have very strict laws regulating the sale of alcohol and those didn't stop anyone from drinking either.

You can't outlaw human nature is what it all comes down to and any attempts to do so are doomed to fail. I may have a chance to go there this year for a music festival, and I plan to be in decent physical shape when I get there. I hope you're right.

[Essen49]

I may have a chance to go there this year for a music festival, and I plan to be in decent physical shape when I get there. I hope you're right.A buff musician, no less! You'll have plenty of freebies throwing themselves at you Bango. Trust me on this one. Not to mention some of the finest seafood and akvavit in the world. Sweden is much more fun than rumor has it.

[Goethe]

Everything you are allowed to give away, you are allowed to sell.

Everything you aren't allowed to give away, you aren't allowed to sell. (for example drugs or weapons etc.)

There are only two exceptions:

Sex and parts of your body. You are allowed to give it away, but you are not allowed to sell it.

(by law or by "moral").

What is the difference between selling something and giving it away as gift:

If you sell something you get something for it, if you give something away as gift you get nothing back.

Means, someone who sells something is in a better position than someone who gives something away as gift.

If the one who is selling something is a "victim" and has to be protected, then the one who gives the same thing away as gift is more a "victim" because he is in a worse position and has to be more protected.

Doesn't this mean, if prostitution is a crime, marriage is a bigger crime?

(perhaps I should have a drink to bring the illogicalness back. Hehehe).

[Bigcebu]

Sex and parts of your body. You are allowed to give it away, but you are not allowed to sell it.You are allowed to sell it. But not in the US.

In most other countries prostitution isn't illegal or at least nor really enforced.

[Stevebny]

You are allowed to sell it. But not in the US.You can't sell it on the White Market but on the Black Market of course you can. Caveat emptor

[Binai]

Sex is precious and must be celebrated and enjoyed in all its variety. Marriage makes sex dull and routine. Prostitution is the answer and it is for nothing that it is the oldest profession in the world. Some civilizations that recognized this fact did not have to struggle with imposing artificial morality and go away with minimal sex related crimes. Others suffered and continue to suffer. Prostitution should be a respectable profession that allows people to express themselves sexually and fulfill their fantasies so important for a fulfilling life.

[Dickhead]

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_18065481

What is wrong with these rich@ssholes?

Oh, yeah; they're rich and they're assholes.

Spend 200 bucks next time and stay out of trouble. Don't blow up your career over pussy. To review: this is your pen and this is your pencil.

Sheesh.

[Frej Of Asgaard]

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_18065481

What is wrong with these rich@ssholes?

Oh, yeah; they're rich and they're assholes.

Spend 200 bucks next time and stay out of trouble. Don't blow up your career over pussy. To review: this Is your pen and this Is your pencil.

Sheesh. I was wondering the same thing when I saw the news about DSK. How could he be so stupid? Why did he not hire an escort instead of "jumping" the maid. I appears that he HAD hired escorts on previous occasions:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/148499/20110519/dominique-strauss-khan-escort-prostitute.htm

But the girls complained the he was too agrressive / rough.

Was he blacklisted at the New York agencies?

I guess the moral of the story is: Always treat the girls with respect.

[Dickhead]

I am going with presumption of innocence on this one for the moment. I've spent quite a bit of time in the hotel industry and a few things don't add up. No way would a maid "think a room was empty." Enter a $3, 000 a night suite without making sure? Highly unlikely. And, I guarantee you everybody On the staff knows who is who in these high-end suites.

OTOH this guy has a real bad track record. On the third hand, he did not get to that station in life by being incredibly stupid. On the fourth hand, first his lawyers said he was eating lunch with his daughter and then they said any sex was consensual. On the fifth hand, it's unlikely he'd accidentally forget his cell phone. On the sixth hand, I haven't seen any pix of this woman but she's not that young and has a kid, so how hot could she be?

So I dunno at this point but regardless of his guilt or innocence I love the idea that some rich French guy is in Riker's Island with no bail. The perp walk, I don't like so much. It's inconsistent with the presumption of innocence. We have "John TV" where I am from in the states but they don't publish your picture until you're convicted.

[Dickhead]

So I see they let him out on bail. France does not extradite its citizens. One of the bail conditions was an "armed guard." Gee, do you think the head of the IMF has enough money to bribe a guard? I'm just sayin'.

[Malabo]

[QUOTE=Binai; 1139039]Sex is precious and must be celebrated and enjoyed in all its variety. Marriage makes sex dull and routine. Prostitution is the answer and it is for nothing that it is the oldest profession in the world.

Girl asks her mother: What is Sex?

Mother: Sex is when you stop a car driven by a man who offers you a meal in a restaurant, and then you spend some time with him in the hotel room, have sex with him once, and then each one go on his way and you have a hundred dollars bill extra in your pocket.

Then the girl asks her mother: What is Super Sex?

Mother: Super Sex is when you stop a limousine driven by Chauffeur and a stylish man is sitting in the back who takes you to a luxurious villa, gives you a scrumptious meal with distinctive Caviar, and then you spend the night together in bed and engage in sex more than once, and then you part with an envelope containing a thousand dollars in your pocket. :* (why)

And then the girl asks her mother: "What is love?

Mother: Love is a lie invented by men so that they can have sex with you for Free.

[Rio D]

read this one. the radical feminist groups are now going after backpage ads, attempting to shut them down as well, with more lies claiming the existence of rampant **** prostitution. but backpage fought back and exposed how the groups manufacture their false statistics:

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-03-23/news/women-s-funding-network-sex-trafficking-study-is-junk-science/

[Errol Flynn]

This is going to be long winded, so if you are looking for something quick, it's not for you. But if you struggle with balancing sexuality and morality (like I do) read on (RN I'd love your comments if you're willing to give the time) :

1) I was raised as a feminist male. My father was a playboy who left my mother with 5 kids. My mother was an educated intellectual early feminist who believed that exact equality was the goal. I love my mother deeply, she did far more for me than anyone (esp. Including my father) and I would like to respect her wishes. My memories of early puberty include a couple of specific incidences: the first time I had an orgasm was a total surprise to me (I didn't even know what it was!) I had found my much older brothers Playboy magazines and sticking my (Anthony) weiner between 2 pillows just came natural and ended in the most mind blowing experience I had ever had. At that moment I promised God I'd never masturbate again once I'd had real sex with a real woman (LOL) , Somehow my mother saw that I had found bro's Playboys, and told me that she was very dissapointed in me for objectifying women in that way. This was a real blow to my 12 year old ego. Through high school (where I actually was successful in most areas except sex) , I balanced 3 personas. A romantic who wanted true love for the rest of his life, a desire to fuck beautiful girls as I saw my father doing, and a feminist who thought my sexual desires were dirty and vulgar.

2) In college (where I first had sex) these struggles transferred into a collision between having encounters with a bunch of girls (who were not my physical ideal) and a certain girl who sought the romantic ever after dream with me. I still wasn't a hobbiest, but I did sneak off to Porn theaters (they had them then) and Strip clubs, always feeling ashamed. My more sophisticated friends were having threesomes with hot coeds, but also at that time it was very chic for girls to be "bi" in college, it just didn't include me.

3) after college I left my GF and moved to the US SW, where it turned out I loved the scenery but had nothing in common with the girls. I couldn't 2 step, liked Euro cars and movies, and was a FEMINIST. Didn't actually score me well there. So I went back to NYC for grad school and met my future ex wife the first night I was there. After 10 + years of puberty I just wanted to get laid with someone I thought was both cute and respectable (intelligent, etc). She (for whatever perverted reason) decided I was the one for the rest of her life and clung on.

4) I cheated from the beginning. Not in a big way, it was the occasional innocuous relationship or it was with pros (but by now I'd discovered them). Eventually we got married (it was a fait acomplie) and I knew that if I had children I'd never divorce her (so I never had children which pissed her off). Mostly I'd make out with girls, but never actually have sex. But I wanted to. Along the way I started to make a lot of money. Until then my feminist background had made e think that women weren't interested in money (really!) , but suddenly with money, I found women responding to me in a way they never had before. I still didn't want to divorce my wife, but when she went to Europe for a month. I went to the local strip club thinking that for a few Gs I could choose and pull ma hot girl. Untill I fell for the girl (does that make me a CAD or an anti-CAD, I still don't know). I thought it would be nbo strings attached, turned out it was ALL strings attached (and my dick too).

5) That's when I became a true Monger. In several years with the hot young stripper we had oral sex but nothing more, yet it cost me my marriage. From then on I have only had sex with 1) WOMEN WHO INITIATED IT OR 2) PROS WHERE IT IS NEGOTIATED. SORRY FOR CAPS. I have tasted the hobby wherever I have been in the world (a lot of places) and once diScovering ISG sought it out in ThAiland (1x) and Colombia (2x SO FAR).

6) Then (at 47) I ran out of money. I might have it again in the future, but who knows? So I haven't had sex in a year. I am sure there are lonely women my age who would like to sleep with me, but having tasted the fruit I want a a young MDE hottie or nothing.

FLAME ON. Thanks.

[Dickhead]

My input is, you need to make some more money, and then learn how to budget It. If you ran out of money from mongering, then you were living beyond your means. But if you made a lot of money for a while, assuming you did it legally and paid taxes on it, you will have enough Social Security when you are 62 to live someplace like the Philippines or Thailand and that should solve your problem.

[Errol Flynn]

My input is, you need to make some more money, and then learn how to budget It. If you ran out of money from mongering, then you were living beyond your means. But if you made a lot of money for a while, assuming you did it legally and paid taxes on it, you will have enough Social Security when you are 62 to live someplace like the Philippines or Thailand and that should solve your problem.Dear Dickhead:

You are right that I didn't budget properly. My thought is to give A WORD OF CAUTION TO OTHER guys ('cause I don't think I'm stupid, but I am driven by hormones). I spent many THOUSANDS on the stripper I thought loved me. A few hundreds on a threesome in Phucket. It all went away. My plea was not so much about money, as a plea of what will make us happy, whether we have money or not?

Thanks for your input.

[Errol Flynn]

My input is, you need to make some more money, and then learn how to budget It. If you ran out of money from mongering, then you were living beyond your means. But if you made a lot of money for a while, assuming you did it legally and paid taxes on it, you will have enough Social Security when you are 62 to live someplace like the Philippines or Thailand and that should solve your problem.I don't want to harp on this, but others may share my experience:

I paid taxes on everything I made (and I'm a Democrat). That mean't that living in California I paid 50% taxes on my income. So I made $2 million and had $1. Then, my wife divorced me and got 50% so I'm left with $500K, not really so much for ten years of hard (and successful) work. It is my fault that I spent that on Hos, but I bet I'm not the only one on here who did that. I'm not trying to be flippant. I would love to know how you guys who go to MDE (or HAv, DR, UKR etc) every month do it?

[Mr Enternational]

Dear Dickhead:

You are right that I didn't budget properly. My thought is to give A WORD OF CAUTION TO OTHER guys ('cause I don't think I'm stupid, but I am driven by hormones). I spent many THOUSANDS on the stripper I thought loved me. A few hundreds on a threesome in Phucket. It all went away. My plea was not so much about money, as a plea of what will make us happy, whether we have money or not?

Thanks for your input. I see a few problems. First you live in California. That place is too damn expensive. I don't know how you do it. Second, you paid 50% taxes. Only a sucker would do such a thing. You need a better tax person. The govt is trying to cheat you so you need to learn to cheat them back. Third, you are too gulible. Why the hell would you spend thousands on a stripper? Go to Brazil or somewhere where they get nekkit for free. Fourth, you are too generous. Hundreds on a threesome in Phuket? You should have only been paying 1000 baht (US$30) to each participant. Once again the old adage has been proven: A fool and his money shall soon part. You may be smart in other things but where this game is concerned you are definitely no Einstein.

[Mr Enternational]

So I haven't had sex in a year. I am sure there are lonely women my age who would like to sleep with me, but having tasted the fruit I want a a young MDE hottie or nothing.Since when can beggars afford to be choosers? As they say in France,"Any pussy is better than no pussy at all."

[Errol Flynn]

I see a few problems. First you live in California. That place is too damn expensive. I don't know how you do it. Second, you paid 50% taxes. Only a sucker would do such a thing. You need a better tax person. The govt is trying to cheat you so you need to learn to cheat them back. Third, you are too gulible. Why the hell would you spend thousands on a stripper? Go to Brazil or somewhere where they get nekkit for free. Fourth, you are too generous. Hundreds on a threesome in Phuket? You should have only been paying 1000 baht (US$30) to each participant. Once again the old adage has been proven: A fool and his money shall soon part. You may be smart in other things but where this game is concerned you are definitely no Einstein.Okay, I'll take my lumps. I expected my honest comments would bring them. But I 'd rather learn how to improve than be castigated for my past mistakes, Is Brazil that good?

[Errol Flynn]

While I appreciate the previous comments, I think they miss the point that I am trying to get my rocks off (a need) yet be respectful to women (my up bringing). I've blown a lot of money in this quest (guilty) , I'm not the ultimate stud like schwimer or Cuba, I'm just a sshmuck who wants to balance sex with a good life.

[Dickhead]

It's not mathematically possible to blow half a million on hookers without seriously overpaying. So work on that. Also, respect is gender-neutral. There are both women and men who are worthy of respect and both women and men who are not. In places like Colombia and Thailand, women respect you less When you overpay. Doesn't seem like this stripper had much respect for you. But that is all in the past. In the future, once you get some money together, fuck the US and go someplace like Uruguay or Argentina where you don't have to worry about immigration or silly pot laws or women who don't want to date you because you are (old, bald, fat, whatever). Thailand is okay but most westerners won't be able to a) learn the language very well or be) understand the culture very well. Spanish OTOH is relatively easy to learn and Uruguay and Argentina both have strong elements of European culture woven into their fabrics, especially in Buenos Aires and Montevideo. I fucked over 500 hookers in Argentina alone and developed deep friendships with a dozen or so, several of which remain to this day (well, yesterday, anyway). Colombia you get a lot of extremely justifiable anti-US sentiment, due to its theft of Panamá and continued insistence on interfering in their sovereign affairs. Prostitution is illegal in 99.99% of the US and downright ridiculous in the remaining .01%. Go where it is legal and you might stop feeling like a dirty little kid whacking in off in the bathroom.

[Errol Flynn]

I do speak Spanish (not a word of Thai) and that's probably the biggest reason I have gone back to MDE but not Phucket. Point taken, make some money and then Man Up. Anyone else?

BTW I overpaid on American girls and treating myself as well, I only wish I'd spent the whole $500k on 3rd world hookers, but then again, I hadn't discovered ISG at the start of all this so it's not ALL my fault.

[Chocha Monger]

I do speak Spanish (not a word of Thai) and that's probably the biggest reason I have gone back to MDE but not Phucket. Point taken, make some money and then Man Up. Anyone else?

BTW I overpaid on American girls and treating myself as well, I only wish I'd spent the whole $500k on 3rd world hookers, but then again, I hadn't discovered ISG at the start of all this so it's not ALL my fault. Errol,

Your main problem is that you're a feminist. I understand that when you were a tiny tot your mom filled your head with all the usual lies about equality and forever after true love with 'the one. ' However, you're a grown man now capable of independent and logical thought. You need to stop thinking with your hormones. Only women do that sort of thing. As a man you need to think rationally. This begins with arriving at the realization that your being feminist man makes about much sense as an African American being a Klansman and embracing the ideology of the KKK.

Secondly, ask yourself why you paid money for pussy if men and women are equal. If you are paying for the privilege of putting your cock in a woman's pussy doesn't that make her pussy more valuable than your cock? Certainly, if you were both equal sex would be a fair exchange with no need for money, gifts or commitments being given to the woman. Yet, this does not happen because women do not want to be equal with you.

Perhaps, you should consider becoming a mannist. I am sure your feelings of conflict would cease once you start looking at things from a male point of view. Is it any surprise that you feel guilty and confused as a feminist with a penis and testicles? Don't feel bitter towards your poor papa. Your mama's radical feminism was what made him run away from home. Your life experience is not unusual for many Western men. Here is an excerpt from Neil Hutchison's biography:

Neil Hutchison from Bachelor of Science

To Money Number One.

The following is his story:

Born of poor but humble parents in the former British colony of Australia, Neil Hutchison spent his early years trudging barefoot through six miles of crocodile-infested wasteland getting to and from school every day. There was another school right next door to his humble home but his parents decided the exercise would do him good.

Eventually he was sent to board at an all-boys Grammar School, which kind of explains his adult infatuation with women. Following that, it became a long slog at Queensland University to be rewarded with a Bachelor of Science degree in chemistry. That was the mid nineteen-seventies, the time of sex, drugs, Rock 'and Roll and a fashion statement that will hopefully never be repeated. Neil missed out on the sex, avoided almost all the drugs, loved Rock 'and Roll and became the fashion guru of flared trousers and wide psychedelic neckties.

'I remember when Meatloaf's Bat Out Of Hell album came out. I played it at my 21st birthday party and knew all the moves to 'Time Warp'. '

Pathetic, isn't it?

Neil Hutchison's early adult life was unremarkable, and it just went downhill from there. Careers were wide, varied and had nothing to do with chemistry.

'Getting that degree turned out to be a total waste of time, except for the fun I had at uni. '

His marriage began well and produced three wonderful children but, after ten years, the union began to disintegrate. Fearing total nuclear meltdown, he did what he was destined to do; he ran away.

He spent a year living in Hong Kong before moving to Manila, Philippines, where he spent a further two years learning the tricks and secrets of the poor, huddled masses.

Neil Hutchison Discovers Pattaya.

In Pattaya, Neil Hutchison found the most interesting people, the best food and the most beautiful women he had ever seen. He posed the standard questions: 'How long has this been going on? ' and 'Why wasn't I told about this place? ' He quickly fell in love with a local working lass and saved her from a life of immorality. Or so he thought. When he eventually confronted her with being less than forthright with him, she reacted to his anger with a smile and the words that still reverberate in his ears today: 'Money Number One! '

[Dickhead]

OK, we are making progress here but we need to do some more math. We've established Errol Flynn's (you do know he was bisexual, right?) $500k was after-tax and legally obtained. So, to spend $500k fucking third world women at $25 a pop (on the high side) , that would mean at a 6% rate of return, compounded monthly (6. 17% effective annual rate of return) , and fucking three a day or let's just round it to 90 per month, if you did that for 30 years you would still have $748 per month left over for such non-essentials as food and housing. And you can get food and housing in Thailand or Paraguay for that amount. In Buenos right now a half hour session goes for just a bit less than $25 US but you can't pay rent and eat for $748 per month. But if you have fucked 90 x 12 x 30 = 32,400 women and haven't found one to feed you yet, you are probably doing something wrong. And that assumes zero income other than on your investments. If you needed more than $748 to eat and pay rent you could work for $2.50 an hour sticking advertisements for wh@rehouses onto telephone booths and street lights.

[Mr Enternational]

fucking three a day or let's just round it to 90 per month, if you did that for 30 years you would still have $748 per month left over for such non-essentials as food and housing. And you can get food and housing in Thailand or Paraguay for that amount.That's a pretty penny here in Thailand. The rent for my room is only $150 / month.

[Dickhead]

Air con or no? Kitchen or no? And how much you pay short time handsome man?

[Mr Enternational]

Air con or no? Kitchen or no? And how much you pay short time handsome man?A / C yes kitchen no. Free wifi, Building 5 years old. ST 300-400 baht. (100-200 at the crack shacks!)

[Dickhead]

Well, hell, that won't work. $748-150 = $598 and there is no way you can eat three restaurant meals a day in Thailand for $19 a day.

Oh, wait a minute ...

Plus, 400 baht is way more than $25 US.

Oh, wait a minute ....

Well, there has to be a catch somewhere. You make it sound like Thailand is better than the US and everyone knows the US is #1.

Oh, wait a minute ....

But the electricity has to be costing you a fortune, if you have AC.

Oh, wait a minute ....

Of course, there is no way to get laid there if you don't speak Thai.

Oh, wait a minute ....

[Chocha Monger]

Telling a friend in Australia about my adventures in Thailand, his wife soberly remarked that I was a fool living in a fool's paradise and I should return to the 'real' world. At the time I laughed it off, but what she said did bear thinking about. It is true I consider Thailand to be a paradise and it is also true that the place can be deceptive from time to time. Would I prefer to live in a fool's paradise or a wise man's purgatory? Even saying the word 'purgatory' sends shivers down my spine and since I have never considered myself to be 'wise', the question was similar to asking whether I would prefer to make love with Miss Universe or have a molten lead enema. So, here I am, a not so wise man living in a deceptively wonderful place. A fool in paradise. Furthermore, it is my paradise and the only place I call home.

I retired at age forty. There was no particular justification for it, I simply wanted to. I came to the conclusion that I no longer believed in organized work (not that I ever really did) and, just as I had with organized religion before it, decided to give it the big flick.

My parents would have turned in their graves with the knowledge that I had not listened to anything they tried to teach me. Their attempts to instill some form of work ethic in me fell on deaf ears. According to them, after getting a good education, I was supposed to work hard, raise a family, work even harder, deprive myself, act with restraint and eventually succeed in owning a scrap of dirt with a pile of sticks on it. Then, I had to keep doing the same thing for another quarter century and put aside money for my old age.

For what? So that I could be old, feeble and rich? Being slouched in a wheelchair, dribbling my breakfast gruel while having a million dollars in the bank is not my idea of fun. I could never imagine myself sitting there being spoon-fed by some sour-faced nurse and thinking what I would like to do with her but not being able to remember exactly what that was.

I was born the black sheep of the family. My elder brother always said that the first word I spoke was not 'mama', but 'baaa'. In the succeeding years, I failed miserably at living up to the family motto. 'Work will make you free'. Because I always perceived pleasure as a much more sensible idea than pain and play as infinitely better than work. Not that I'm lazy, mind you, I just don't see the point.

[Dickhead]

Well, work is what set me free. That and not having kids. I did not retire at 40 but I quit for a year or so to examine the overall situation. I don't know what this Neil did for a living but I got progressively more education and had a series of more lucrative and physically easier careers. A couple of things helped me achieve financial independence: I started working early, I never lived beyond my means, and I selectively took opportunities to make extra money. Hence I will not be drooling my gruel in a wheelchair with a pile of sticks or whatever. But the work ethic did serve me well, for a while. Really, education set me free but work got to me to where I could get the education. Probably I could have accomplished the same thing by being a good looking lazy mother fucker but, not being that good looking, I had to take the longer and harder road.

[Suave Monger]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43582811/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

I was skeptical of the 100, 000 to 300, 000 as soon as I read that.

However, when a conversation such as this comes up, how do you challenge a bull*it statistic like this without making people wonder if you are a monger yourself. I tend to just not say much when anything touching on prostitution (like say, Thailand and Hangovr II) come up.

[Dickhead]

I dunno but it reminds me of when I saw Bill Cosby in Reno. He was talking about how the Chippendale Dancers had been there the night before. He asked all the ladies in the audience who had seen them to raise their hands. A bunch did. He then said, "You know those guys are all queer, right?" So then a bunch of the women were like "No, no, no." He paused for effect, took the cigar out of his mouth, and said, "Well, the one I fucked was."

[Mr Enternational]

This is spot on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fucprJ5HK7k&feature=related

[Chocha Monger]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/07/17/the-growing-demand-for-prostitution.html

[Omeprazol]

Hello,

Don't know if this is the right forum to post my question in but I do it anyway. I am a Newbie, and have set up some rules for myself, one is never to P4P in a country where it is illegal. However, I find it hard to obtain the correct information regarding this issue for many countries. And for example, in the Phillies, which seem to be on the Top 5 P4P list, it is illegal. Therefore, I would like to adress anyone who knows or knows where I can find information regarding this topic. Would be very grateful for replies. And BTW, I have tried to search the net but I don't know if the information I have gathered is credible.

Take care,

Omeprazol

[Dickhead]

If you don't think the info you got on the internet is credible, why would you think the information you would get here would be credible? This is the internet. You could stick with Costa Rica. The right to sell one's body is incorporated into the constitution there. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand but that is just a joke, for example. In The Netherlands, it's legal in certain areas under certain conditions. In many Latin countries it is legal in "zonas de tolerancia" or the "zona rosa." So the question is more complicated than legal vs. Illegal.

[Snake27]

Here's my theory about the morality of prostitution. I may have said some of this before (can't remember, too lazy to look it up).

Life is a copying operation. It started some 4 billion years ago, probably as some primitive molecules (either DNA or more likely their precursors) copying themselves. Fast forward 4B years and we have this elaborate copying operation, layered in a bewildering complexity. The complexity gives the illusion of purpose and even "soul", but the complexity only arose (via evolution) because it led to a more efficient and robust copying operation, always evolving towards a form that can better withstand the ravages of the environment. There are other ways to harnass energy and copy molecules. For example the growing of crystalline structures. But "life" is one of the solutions to the copying problem, the key point being that it involves information (DNA) , which is the basis of evolution. The main point here is that life is basically simple, though this simplicity is obscured by an emergent complexity. Realizing that it's simple motivates us to look for simple patterns.

Let's try to find a simple reason for why sex exists. Evidentally, sexual reproduction (in contrast to asexual) confers some kind of advantage. I don't think it's fully agreed upon in scientific circles, but most likely the advantage of sex is that, over the long haul (millions of years) , it leads to a more robust population, because it mixes traits (genes) and generates a diversity, which makes living systems more likely to survive environmental change; some portion of the diverse population survives, owing to it being different.

Let's consider men and women. In what way are they different? Well, the copying operation requires energy, and that energy is captured from the environment. Women are different in that they require a much larger investment in energy to reproduce. There is a 9 month incubation of a fetus in a woman's body, plus the (cultural) behavior that women usually do the majority of care-giving to children. I think this is true for many larger mammals, though it's not universally true in life. Theoretically, men may require a comparitively tiny amount of energy, like a "hit-and-run" sexual act. Now, since women require a large investment in energy, they are usually more circumspect in their sexual behavior. Simply put, more is at stake with their choices. Expressed through social morality, this means they may demand more commitment from men. If a man commits to a woman for the length of time it takes to raise a child to adult, then the man has invested a similar amount of energy in the process, and it is a more fair outcome. The "cost" is energy, and the man and woman pay the same cost if they are similarly commited. However, at the same time, the man is instinctively motivated to "hit-and-run", but (except in rare cases) he usually cannot accomplish this. The rare cases would be "ladies man", who are a somewhat rare phenomena, I think. (Sadly, a high degree of intelligence is not a basis for being a ladies man, a fact which should curb the arrogance of highly intellingent men!)

This is the basis of prostitution: women engaged in prosititution exploit the asymmetry between men and women in the energy required to reproduce.

Morality is the resolution of the conflict of desires. Women tend to desire the equal investment of men in their copying operation. At the same time, men should realize the inherent waste of resources (money) in prostitution, because engaging in it leads to nothing of lasting value, only a fleeting and meaningless pleasure. And if you are trying to reproduce with prostitutes (not using condoms) there is the obvious problem of parasites, some of them fatal. When placed in the context of the larger purpose of life, prostitution is a waste of time. However, as one who has wasted my time plenty enough, I am not passing judgement on anyone. I am only passing along my ideas.

[Chocha Monger]

Here's my theory about the morality of prostitution. I may have said some of this before (can't remember, too lazy to look it up).

Life is a copying operation. It started some 4 billion years ago, probably as some primitive molecules (either DNA or more likely their precursors) copying themselves. Fast forward 4B years and we have this elaborate copying operation, layered in a bewildering complexity. The complexity gives the illusion of purpose and even "soul", but the complexity only arose (via evolution) because it led to a more efficient and robust copying operation, always evolving towards a form that can better withstand the ravages of the environment. There are other ways to harnass energy and copy molecules. For example the growing of crystalline structures. But "life" is one of the solutions to the copying problem, the key point being that it involves information (DNA) , which is the basis of evolution. The main point here is that life is basically simple, though this simplicity is obscured by an emergent complexity. Realizing that it's simple motivates us to look for simple patterns.

Let's try to find a simple reason for why sex exists. Evidentally, sexual reproduction (in contrast to asexual) confers some kind of advantage. I don't think it's fully agreed upon in scientific circles, but most likely the advantage of sex is that, over the long haul (millions of years) , it leads to a more robust population, because it mixes traits (genes) and generates a diversity, which makes living systems more likely to survive environmental change; some portion of the diverse population survives, owing to it being different.

Let's consider men and women. In what way are they different? Well, the copying operation requires energy, and that energy is captured from the environment. Women are different in that they require a much larger investment in energy to reproduce. There is a 9 month incubation of a fetus in a woman's body, plus the (cultural) behavior that women usually do the majority of care-giving to children. I think this is true for many larger mammals, though it's not universally true in life. Theoretically, men may require a comparitively tiny amount of energy, like a "hit-and-run" sexual act. Now, since women require a large investment in energy, they are usually more circumspect in their sexual behavior. Simply put, more is at stake with their choices. Expressed through social morality, this means they may demand more commitment from men. If a man commits to a woman for the length of time it takes to raise a child to adult, then the man has invested a similar amount of energy in the process, and it is a more fair outcome. The "cost" is energy, and the man and woman pay the same cost if they are similarly commited. However, at the same time, the man is instinctively motivated to "hit-and-run", but (except in rare cases) he usually cannot accomplish this. The rare cases would be "ladies man", who are a somewhat rare phenomena, I think. (Sadly, a high degree of intelligence is not a basis for being a ladies man, a fact which should curb the arrogance of highly intellingent men!)

This is the basis of prostitution: women engaged in prosititution exploit the asymmetry between men and women in the energy required to reproduce.

Morality is the resolution of the conflict of desires. Women tend to desire the equal investment of men in their copying operation. At the same time, men should realize the inherent waste of resources (money) in prostitution, because engaging in it leads to nothing of lasting value, only a fleeting and meaningless pleasure. And if you are trying to reproduce with prostitutes (not using condoms) there is the obvious problem of parasites, some of them fatal. When placed in the context of the larger purpose of life, prostitution is a waste of time. However, as one who has wasted my time plenty enough, I am not passing judgement on anyone. I am only passing along my ideas.Well, based on your theory a monger could gain value for his investment by having his girls tested for disease and then barebacking them until they're knocked up. He could repeat this numerous times in various countries achieving an astounding degree of genetic diversity in his offspring. Since beauty (symmetry) is considered one of the main indicators of genetic fitness, the monger could improve his gene pool for pennies on the dollar by purchasing sexual access to women of a level of beauty otherwise impossible for him access otherwise. A fat elderly unattractive monger with a meager pension can pass himself off as 'rich' in impoverished Third World nations and impregnate young genetically superior women. In his home country women see this behavior as cheating the genetic status quo and seek measures to curtail sex travel. For example, in America it is an unwritten but widely accepted rule that only rich beautiful people fuck other rich beautiful people.

[Bango Cheito]

If you don't think the info you got on the internet is credible, why would you think the information you would get here would be credible? This is the internet. You could stick with Costa Rica. The right to sell one's body is incorporated into the constitution there. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand but that is just a joke, for example. In The Netherlands, it's legal in certain areas under certain conditions. In many Latin countries it is legal in "zonas de tolerancia" or the "zona rosa." So the question is more complicated than legal vs. Illegal.Here in Colombia it's also a constitutional right.

[Bango Cheito]

Snake that's a really well thought out argument but I'm going to punch two major holes in it.

1) Sex is not just useful for procreation, nor is it the primary benefit. Sex is dealing with incredibly powerful energies which can be harnessed for almost anything by people who know how. If you don't believe me look up "sex magic" or "sex magic" on google, and TRY some of the stuff. It WORKS. (But be careful!)

2) If what you were saying is true, then women would be NATURALLY inclined to be monogamous and insisting on commitment from a man. The fact is, the desire to make a man commit on a woman's part is due 100% tu CULTURAL and SOCIAL pressure. The proof of this is when you get a woman drooling over a man just because he's so physically attractive to her, she will offer herself to him under ANY circumstances, without demands and without commitments. The problem is that modern cultures are designed to repress NATURAL human sexuality, that and the fact that most men are not attractive to the female of the species, and have to resort to cultural pressure and / or offering women material benefits for having a relationship with them. Once again, this is provable in any environment just by experimenting.

[Adindas]

For some people DATY (eating pussies) is already part of their diets.)

For instances, you have probably have come across serial of porn movies such as "Pussy Man","Pierre woodman"

Exotic eating habbits and expensive diets though.

Reading from various postings in this forum it seems that they are quite a few people also belongs to this category, me included.)

[Snake27]

Snake that's a really well thought out argument but I'm going to punch two major holes in it.

1) Sex is not just useful for procreation, nor is it the primary benefit. Sex is dealing with incredibly powerful energies which can be harnessed for almost anything by people who know how. If you don't believe me look up "sex magic" or "sex magic" on google, and TRY some of the stuff. It WORKS. (But be careful!)

2) If what you were saying is true, then women would be NATURALLY inclined to be monogamous and insisting on commitment from a man. The fact is, the desire to make a man commit on a woman's part is due 100% tu CULTURAL and SOCIAL pressure. The proof of this is when you get a woman drooling over a man just because he's so physically attractive to her, she will offer herself to him under ANY circumstances, without demands and without commitments. The problem is that modern cultures are designed to repress NATURAL human sexuality, that and the fact that most men are not attractive to the female of the species, and have to resort to cultural pressure and / or offering women material benefits for having a relationship with them. Once again, this is provable in any environment just by experimenting.I agree with you somewhat, and appreciate the thoughtful reply. I still claim that life is a copying operation and sex is the favored mechanism. What is the "sex magic" of the flatworm, the amoeba, or the common cockroach? I believe the vast majority (99+ %?) of species use sex to procreate, and we normally don't ascribe magic to their actions. Leave it to humans to wrap a simple idea with mumbo jumbo (that was not meant as a put-down, but rather a general observation).

I think that cultural and social pressure arises in an arbitrary way but has to be consistent with instinct. You're right, a lot of women drool over attractive men; I was only arguing that there was a tendency for them to be, on the average, more circumspect because of the asymmetry in energy required. But it's just an idea to consider, and I should have admitted that it was not entirely original, though I have embellished it. And it's just another perspective on the problem of morality, which I didn't see considered here yet.

[Snake27]

Here's a little more of my perspective on the morality of prostitution, to add to what I said before.

There are two main moral problems: 1) bringing unwanted risk of disease to unsuspecting partners and to oneself; and 2) spending too much money.

The first is not really a problem of prostitution per se, but generally a problem of promsicuity and / or cheating. If you are single, then you are taking a risk with our own health plus that of any future partner. I don't think this is a sufficient moral problem for people outside your family to be concerned with, because any future partner should assume the responsibility for knowing you well enough to judge your health. If you are married it is more of a problem because it's unfair to bring such risk to your spouse. As we all know, there are ways to mitigate the risks, but the risks are still significant. Cheating can also raise emotional and trust problems. Cheating with a prostitute is not nearly as bad, in my view, as cheating with a lover because there is no emotional investment with a prostitute, whereas one is more likely to develop divided loyalties with a secret lover.

The second issue (money) is akin to gambling. This can be mitigated with self-control and budgeting, but it's not easy for some guys.

I don't personally see those issues as sufficient to make prostitution illegal, but I can see good reasons to keep prostitution away from people who would be offended. For that reason I support making street prostitution illegal (misdemeanor) but would allow brothels in certain zones, as well as internet ads. But I'm probably preaching to the choir here.

I think that a lot of definitions about what is "right" and "wrong" (which is morality) come from a long history (thousands of years) of social experiment where we have found out what best resolves the conflict of desires among people. These moral teachings find their way into religious teachings as a way of wrapping them in easily digestible precepts. Since "God said thou shalt not", it must be right. So people accept it. I've never accepted religion because I see no proof that the ideas are true. But the majority of people accept it, so it's an effective way to spread moral teachings. However, a lot of morality is common sense, just knowing what is the best way to interact with society.

Well, that's about sums it up.

[Adindas]

People have different views on spending money. Some people went to upscale, fine restaurants to look for gourmet type food, wine, champagne, etc. Some are particularity looking for exotic food, meat such the one from tiger, crocodile, elephant, etc.

Similarly, many people on this forum want to spend money on tasting various types of exotic meat (e. G. Pu*why).


Here's a little more of my perspective on the morality of prostitution, to add to what I said before.

There are two main moral problems: 1) bringing unwanted risk of disease to unsuspecting partners and to oneself; and 2) spending too much money.

[Dickhead]

"Spending too much money" is a moral Issue? How is that? I guess I could see if you spent money mongering and neglected your child support or something, but this seems like a real reach to me.

[Adindas]

Wikipedia is one of the place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country

Just click the country you want to know (scroll down and you will see) and there will be information regarding whether it is legal, not illegal, or illegal in those countries.

Mind you can not rely 100% on Wikipedia. If you want to be 100% sure then you need to search the official government sites of those countries.


Hello,

Don't know if this is the right forum to post my question in but I do it anyway. I am a Newbie, and have set up some rules for myself, one is never to P4P in a country where it is illegal. However, I find it hard to obtain the correct information regarding this issue for many countries. And for example, in the Phillies, which seem to be on the Top 5 P4P list, it is illegal. Therefore, I would like to adress anyone who knows or knows where I can find information regarding this topic. Would be very grateful for replies. And BTW, I have tried to search the net but I don't know if the information I have gathered is credible.

Take care,

Omeprazol

[Snake27]

"Spending too much money" is a moral Issue? How is that? I guess I could see if you spent money mongering and neglected your child support or something, but this seems like a real reach to me.Moral issues concern things you should and should not be doing, as they affect yourself or other people negatively. Yes, neglecting child support would be an example. Depleting the kids' college fund or going into serious debt would be others. The key phrase is "too much". Your definition might be different from mine (which might be why it's stretch to you?). I would suggest a maximum of 3 % income if you have family obligations and 10 to 20 % if you are single and only harming yourself. Of course, if you have a family then there are other moral issues as well, as I discussed below.

[Dickhead]

well, i don't agree parents have any moral obligation to fund their children's education past age 18 but i sort of get what you are saying. but if you don't have a family and you spend 100% of your money on hookers, that might be way stupid but i don't see how it's immoral.

regarding the wikipedia link in the penultimate post, according to them pretty much every single country has massive problems with sex trafficking, sex tourism, ****philia, blah blah blah. and of course it's getting worse, and yada yada yada. a crock of shit.

[Chocha Monger]

If prostitution is a waste of time then the whole courtship and marriage deal is criminal. Married scientists are less productive than unmarried scientists, and the productivity of scientists declines after marriage. So, if a scientist chooses to indulge in the services of a prostitute once in a while then spends the rest of his time on research of great benefit to mankind instead of marrying is that a waste of time?

Sex in humans is not limited solely to reproduction. Women are sexually receptive outside their ovulation periods. Obviously, sex plays a larger role in society beyond breeding. One only has to look at the widespread use of sex in marketing products that seem to have nothing to do with sex. Recreational sex can relieve stress and serve as an emotional outlet.

Marrying for, or dating, under false pretenses to obtain sex is far more costly and immoral than purchasing sexual services. People tend to ignore the negatives surrounding marriage and courtship. These relationships do not preclude the risk of STDs and carry their own plethora of issues including: financial squabbles, domestic abuse, divorce, allegations of unwanted sexual contact, custodial battles, division of property, emotional distress, infidelity or fear of it, personal sacrifice and feelings of being unappreciated.

There is way more immorality surrounding efforts to obtain 'free' sex than the outright purchase of sexual services.

[Snake27]

Nice discussion.


If prostitution is a waste of time then the whole courtship and marriage deal is criminal. Married scientists are less productive than unmarried scientists, and the productivity of scientists declines after marriage. So, if a scientist chooses to indulge in the services of a prostitute once in a while then spends the rest of his time on research of great benefit to mankind instead of marrying is that a waste of time?How do you know that the productivity of scientists declines after marriage? It tends to decline with age, too. And some become lazy when they get tenure. What percentage of Nobel laureates are single? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I doubt it's higher than the general population of males. Might even be lower.


Sex in humans is not limited solely to reproduction. Women are sexually receptive outside their ovulation periods. Obviously, sex plays a larger role in society beyond breeding. One only has to look at the widespread use of sex in marketing products that seem to have nothing to do with sex. Recreational sex can relieve stress and serve as an emotional outlet.True, but actually a lot can be explained by the model I described below, though not in a short-post format like this. I think one may explain why women have sex outside their ovulation, why people are sometimes altruistic / cooperative as opposed to selfish / competitive, even why homosexuality exists, and a lot of other curious things. Nevertheless, reproduction lies at the core of sex. How can anyone question that ?


Marrying for, or dating, under false pretenses to obtain sex is far more costly and immoral than purchasing sexual services. People tend to ignore the negatives surrounding marriage and courtship. These relationships do not preclude the risk of STDs and carry their own plethora of issues including: financial squabbles, domestic abuse, divorce, allegations of unwanted sexual contact, custodial battles, division of property, emotional distress, infidelity or fear of it, personal sacrifice and feelings of being unappreciated.

There is way more immorality surrounding efforts to obtain 'free' sex than the outright purchase of sexual services.Agreed.

[Dickhead]

"How do you know that the productivity of scientists declines after marriage? It tends to decline with age, too."

A lot of shit declines with age. Trust me on that one. But I'd be interested in a source or reference because I've always read and heard (and believe to be true from my own observations) that married men are more productive than single men. Tenure is an interesting point but only a very small portion of scientists are academics.

[Golfinho]

Well, I don't agree parents have any moral obligation to fund their children's education past age 18.The mentality of the terminal prole, unworthy of comment.

[Bango Cheito]

I agree with you somewhat, and appreciate the thoughtful reply. I still claim that life is a copying operation and sex is the favored mechanism. What is the "sex magic" of the flatworm, the amoeba, or the common cockroach? I believe the vast majority (99+ %) of species use sex to procreate, and we normally don't ascribe magic to their actions. Leave it to humans to wrap a simple idea with mumbo jumbo (that was not meant as a put-down, but rather a general observation).

I think that cultural and social pressure arises in an arbitrary way but has to be consistent with instinct. You're right, a lot of women drool over attractive men; I was only arguing that there was a tendency for them to be, on the average, more circumspect because of the asymmetry in energy required. But it's just an idea to consider, and I should have admitted that it was not entirely original, though I have embellished it. And it's just another perspective on the problem of morality, which I didn't see considered here yet.Au contraire, if you look closely at the animal kingdom you will see irrefutably that sex is in fact NOT just about procreation, it's about a great many things in fact. ALL sex has a "magical" element to it. Once again, all you have to do is try it to know whether or not it works. Don't take my word for it.

Living as an expat in Colombia for 3 years has majorly opened my eyes to human nature. People here have a lot MORE sex than North Americans, and it's not because they have more free time (they certainly don't here in the big city) or any other reason, it's because by and large people are more physically ATTRACTIVE to one another here. A woman's pickiness goes OUT THE WINDOW the moment she sees a guy who PHYSICALLY fulfills her last expectation. She will pay the hotel room, bring breakfast in bed, tolerate other women in the picture or even open up her latent bi side for the guy, even pay his personal expenses, you name it. It's all about DEGREE OF ATTRACTION. This just never happens in North America because as ugly as the women are, the men are even uglier.

I'm also beginning to realize how awesome the ancient Greeks were with their aesthetics, and how RIGHT they were. I was quite the little relativist for awhile, but have come around to realize there are actually many absolutes in the universe. Being fat in ancient Greece was considered such an offense to society, it was sometimes even worth the death penalty! In contrast, we DELIBERATELY inject chemicals into the food so that our appetites are unnaturally stimulated to the point where we over-consume and wind up with health problems as a result :O

[Golfinho]

Living as an expat in Colombia for 3 years has majorly opened my eyes to human nature. I'm also beginning to realize how awesome the ancient Greeks were with their aesthetics, and how RIGHT they were. I was quite the little relativist for awhile, but have come around to realize there are actually many absolutes in the universe. Being fat in ancient Greece was considered such an offense to society, it was sometimes even worth the death penalty!Then you'd also appreciate a similar aesthetic that was in play in Germany around say 1933-1945, where such offenses as you mention were sometimes even worth the death penalty.

[Snake27]

Au contraire, if you look closely at the animal kingdom you will see irrefutably that sex is in fact NOT just about procreation, it's about a great many things in fact. ALL sex has a "magical" element to it.

We don't really have a disagreement. I never said that sex was "just about procreation", I said that life was, at it's core, a copying operation and sex was a prevalent mechanism, and this had some simple implications on human sexual activity. Well, see the original post. And I cannot disagree about the "magical" element you mentioned because I don't understand it. Sorry. Whenever I see the word "magic" my brain turns off. I did, however, google "sex magic" as you suggested. I see a lot of phrases like "through sexual magic one can eliminate any previously comprehended psychological defect", which I cannot decipher, but maybe it means that "magic" is an undefinable superpower which allows wonderful things like teleportation to another world (an example for which there's no evidence). I have a hard time dealing with undefined terminology, or with things for which I see no evidence. Too loose for me. Therefore, no disagreement.

[Dickhead]

To say that "all sex has a magical element" strikes me as somewhere between a bit of a stretch and a complete crock. Let me give you a recent example. Last week I went to my favorite privado in Buenos Aires and tried a new provider / performer / woman / ho or whatever is the appropriate noun. A perfectly nice woman, decent looking, far younger than I am, from Paraguay. Absolutely unresponsive, turned her head away from kissing, told me no BBBJ even though that is the specialty of this particular privado. I said,"Fine; use a condom then." She put on the condom, bobbed her head up and down rapidly and ineptly, and I pretended she was someone else doing something else and came as fast as I could. I had broken one of my one rules, which is to take a half hour session the first time with a new person, but even though there were at least 40 minutes left, as soon as I came, I threw the condom in the trash, put my clothes on, and left without a word.

So find the magic in that! I have had many, many magical sex sessions, both with hookers and otherwise, and many, many completely meaningless physical releases, both with hookers and otherwise. In particular there is no magic in having sex with a Dominicana and listening to her say "¿Terminaste? ¿Terminaste? ¿Terminaste?" every five seconds, beginning ten seconds into the session.

Sometimes sex is less like magic and more like taking a much needed shit. But then I've been living as an ex-pat in Latin America a hell of a lot longer than three years.

[Bango Cheito]

Then you'd also appreciate a similar aesthetic that was in play in Germany around say 1933-1945, where such offenses as you mention were sometimes even worth the death penalty.No dude. The National Socialists were idiots, killing off the BEST of their society instead of the worst. They had the criteria all wrong.

Dickhead, definitely some sex is better than others. But it's always still magical. Kinda like pizza.

[Hasideas Tao]

I find words usually screw people up. I think thats one of the reasons I love Colombia. I have so few words to work with so I speak directly. Consequently, I get more of what I want and less of what I don't.

So instead of calling sex magical like Disney, I propose to call it "Sticky!" or some non discript phrase like that. Because even when its bad its still kinda good. Joke: how is sex like air? Both are no big deal unless your not getting any." Even in examples of bad sex, for some reason, the memory can still stick with you. Why is that? I can recall some mediocre to terrible experiences with great detail. And also some amazing experiences with great detail. Point is, sex often provides kind of an awake moment. When fucking, you tend to be "right here right now" or an even simpler analogy, on a momentary vacation from the rest of your life. So you tend to remember that shit. It could also have effects like a drug.

Just my two cents.

[Golfinho]

No dude. The National Socialists were idiots, killing off the BEST of their society instead of the worst.You were referencing physical appearance, idealized beauty, ideals from classical Greece: "it's because by and large people are more physically ATTRACTIVE". This was what invited the comparison to the NSDAP program of promoting physical appearance and body culture. The best of their society were killed off on the Eastern front. Yes, that was idiotic.

[Adindas]

I believe people who pay for escorts and people who do escorting might have done something good for society because:

Punters are helping the cutie young babe to keep maintaining their lifestyle, so they could effort keep buying new gadgets, new iPhones, Ipads in the markets. Otherwise who knows they might do something bad in order to get it.

Some of these cuties are doing escorts to pay something beneficial for their future such as their tuition fee, etc.

Some of these cuties are helping to pay the hospital bills for the other member of their close families.

The punter are helping them to pay for it.

On the other side, some blokes, punters have get used to eating exotic meat (DATY) as part of their diets, so the escort helping them and the punters help the babes to get what the babe's need. So helping each other, is not that add value to society ??

If this escort has no other income then they will claim for benefit or do something bad such as selling drugs on the street and the society or the tax payers will need to pay for it.

To some extend I still see that become an escort will add more value and therefore more honorable to society than the people who produce so many children without the ability to maintain them and therefore just asking the taxpayers to pay for them using the benefit system.

My opinion is open for discussion and stand for correction

[Mr Enternational]

I believe people who pay for escorts and people who do escorting might have done something good for society because:

Punters are helping the cutie young babe to keep maintaining their lifestyleNot all escorts are cute, young, or female.

[Trevor2522]

Don't know if this is the right forum to post my question in but I do it anyway. I am a Newbie, and have set up some rules for myself, one is never to P4P in a country where it is illegal. However, I find it hard to obtain the correct information regarding this issue for many countries. And for example, in the Phillies, which seem to be on the Top 5 P4P list, it is illegal. Therefore, I would like to address anyone who knows or knows where I can find information regarding this topic. Would be very grateful for replies. And BTW, I have tried to search the net but I don't know if the information I have gathered is credible.Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution#Legality.

There are degrees of legality. Sometimes the provider can be adversely affected (Thailand), sometimes the punter (Sweden); sometimes both (Philippines, UK). In many countries the basic transaction-for-sex is legal but soliciting, brothels and pimps are not.

The Wiki map above contains inaccuracies. For instance, since 2007 adult-to-adult sex-tourism in Madagascar can land the punter up to 10 years in prison on 560 calories a day. But the police hardly ever enforce the law. If they did this already-poor country would suffer serious loss in tourist income. As in Thailand, the law is just a sop to the prudish middle/upper classes who don't wish their country to be labelled as a sex-destination, yet refuse to help their poor out of poverty (like breaking a cow's legs and kicking it because it won't get up).

If you want fully-legal, go to (most of) South America, parts of West Africa, Western Europe or Turkey. But these are not necessarily the cheapest or best places for commercial sex. Additionally, some of these countries require yellow fever vaccination for entry (or inter-country travel) which can have toxic side effects http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2069712/BBCs-Man-Greece-psychotic-believed-Jesus-yellow-fever-jab.html

Limiting yourself to the 'legal' countries is something of a pointless exercise in practical terms.

[Mr Enternational]

Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

There are degrees of legality. Sometimes the provider can be adversely affected (Thailand) , sometimes the punter (Sweden) ; sometimes both (Philippines, UK). In many countries the basic transaction-for-sex is legal but soliciting, brothels and pimps are not.I just can not understand how in my country, the USA, the police can dress up like a hooker and go out and entice / entrap you. Then if you give in they say gotcha! You are going to jail. It just seems ridiculous to me to go out and tempt a person and if they can not resist to make them into criminals. Do they do that in other countries as well?

[Trevor2522]

I just can not understand how in my country, the USA, the police can dress up like a hooker and go out and entice / entrap you. Then if you give in they say gotcha! You are going to jail. It just seems ridiculous to me to go out and tempt a person and if they can not resist to make them into criminals. Do they do that in other countries as well?It's all part of the conditioning of a police state. Stings are also used to tempt people into other crimes they would not normally commit, and the USA has no rivals in these pursuits.

The world has been hijacked by the criminal banking élite and one thing they want is the worker bees to stay at home, obey authority and pay their taxes. Why have matters deteriorated like this? Because people falsely trust in democracy, remain silent and don't realise what goes on behind the scenes. I guess you're ticked off at your taxes being used to subsidize the relocation of American industry to China over the past 20 years? This is what the globalists -- the Rockefeller and Rothschild families are the biggest players -- secretly get up to by paying-off your elected representatives! Make a start in addressing these issues by voting in Ron Paul as president.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/
http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/

[Adindas]

The world has change we just need to see escorts, landscapers, or prostitutes (I do not use this term.) is a normal profession. They are a normal working people.

Read the story of this lady.

From dinner lady to lapdancer: Village stunned by middle-class housewife's book about her £1,000 a-night past with Pink Pussycats.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078455/Debby-Hughes-stuns-village-revealing-secret-past-Pink-Pussycats-lapdancer-book-Lapping-It-Up.html

[Adindas]

Is it true that you will go to jail if you have been entrapped by a police posing as prostitute and you get caught (presumably the prostitution is illegal)?

Are they putting resources for such kind of petty crime? I guess the jail / prison was already full if the cops really meant it. It is dead easy to catch these people. I am not a cop but I have seen it everywhere ...

What about in boulders highway close to Las Vegas / Nevada where people fuck everywhere on the street, on the cars, on the petrol stations or in the park in any big cities. What about in some of massages parlous, discotheques , karaoke, spa mostly in Asian Countries, but exist everywhere. I am choosing these good examples of notoriously known areas. Do not the cops know it (I fully doubt it) or they just turn blind eyes.

I know in majority of countries prostitution have never been legal for obvious reasons of afraid of dealing with strong oppositions and pressures from feminist groups, religious organizations, etc but the cops just really do not bother to put resources on such petty crime (still debatable though whether this is a crime or not) where both parties have been happy to engage, no pressures, involve two or more consent adults, cause no harm to society given that other crimes associated with this petty crime do not come into equation.

I do not understand why spend taxpayers money for such petty crime where there is already strong evidence that it will never be able to be eradicated. Better to put resources in the area where they are mostly needed. They might investigate if there is a suspicion of major crimes such as trafficking / force prostitution, prostitution with minor / children have got involved, drug dealer, etc .


I just can not understand how in my country, the USA, the police can dress up like a hooker and go out and entice / entrap you. Then if you give in they say gotcha! You are going to jail. It just seems ridiculous to me to go out and tempt a person and if they can not resist to make them into criminals. Do they do that in other countries as well?

[Gentleman Travel]

From the BBC.

Former IMF head Dominique Strauss-Kahn has been detained for questioning by French police investigating a prostitution ring.

Mr Strauss-Kahn, once a front-runner for the French presidency, could be held for 48 hours at a police station in Lille, northern France.

Investigators have already questioned a number of prostitutes who have admitted having sex with Mr Strauss-Kahn.

He insists he did not know that the women were prostitutes.

"I challenge you to distinguish a naked prostitute from any other naked woman," his lawyer Henri Leclerc has told French television.

Read all about it here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17110618

Poor guy does not seem to get a break! But if you are being arrested for prostitution-related offences in France, you must really be trying hard!

Maybe it is just the government trying to make political hay in the middle of an election campaign.

But one moral of the story is, once you are tainted by scandal, people love to pile on, and you are vulnerable to all kinds of attacks.

[Malabo]

This short clip made for some interesting introspection.

Lets get comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1q1hpwDAHU&feature=related

[Adindas]

Political; move I will say.

How many people including french cisitizen visit brothels everyday?

If not many then probably the brothels and RLD in the Pigalle in Paris would not survive to this date as they are not making profit.


From the BBC.

Former IMF head Dominique Strauss-Kahn has been detained for questioning by French police investigating a prostitution ring.

Mr Strauss-Kahn, once a front-runner for the French presidency, could be held for 48 hours at a police station in Lille, northern France.

Investigators have already questioned a number of prostitutes who have admitted having sex with Mr Strauss-Kahn.

He insists he did not know that the women were prostitutes.

"I challenge you to distinguish a naked prostitute from any other naked woman," his lawyer Henri Leclerc has told French television.

Read all about it here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17110618

Poor guy does not seem to get a break! But if you are being arrested for prostitution-related offences in France, you must really be trying hard!

Maybe it is just the government trying to make political hay in the middle of an election campaign.

But one moral of the story is, once you are tainted by scandal, people love to pile on, and you are vulnerable to all kinds of attacks.

[Adindas]

This short clip made for some interesting introspection.

Lets get comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1q1hpwDAHU&feature=relatedLOL it is very funny. But she make a good point.

"Men always have that fantasy unless you want to chop everyone dick"

[Chill Out]

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer

[Mr Enternational]

A hooker speaks out:

http://us.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2/video / us / 2012/05/24 / drew-taylor-prostitute-cheating-men. Cnn