View Full Version : The Morality of Prostitution
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Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 08:38
I have a rather cool story to share - but I'll answer Joe's questions first, coz my story will probably change the topic of conversation a bit.
"Do women working there usually have their antennae up keeping an eye out for people they know, or is it a rather minor concern?"
It is a CONSTANT concern. I have no idea why it's the case - as you said, our city's population is around a million - but for some reason, getting caught in a brothel is an extremely common occurrence. That's what I meant when I said this is a really small place...not that it actually IS a small place, but because it always feels like it is. Every day you run into people you know in shops or clubs, or you get talking to someone who turns out to be a friend or a friend or whatever. No idea why that is, but it makes working in a brothel a huge risk.
"In the instances where someone sees someone they know and keeps out-of-sight, what find of after-effects are there?"
For starters, everyone else gets a good look at him so that they can warn the girl if he ever comes in again. Then there is usually a big discussion between all the girls about being caught in a brothel - basically a debriefing session - because the girl who nearly got caught is usually in a blind panic, and needs to get it off her chest. I doubt that many people would keep it to themselves - it's safer to share it with the other girls.
"Is there any discussion or curiousity regarding the sexual aspects?"
Can't say I've ever heard anyone talk about stuff like that. I guess if it was an old boyfriend who was really twisted or violent in bed they probably would say something - but I've never heard that.
" Since you mention him seeing you, how much did/does your ex know about you being in the trade? How does that affect things?"
He tried to bring it up in a custody battle - the judge told him it was irrelevant. He told everyone in our old hometown that I was a wh*re - nobody believed him because he is a lying sonofabitch anyway! He sent one of his mates to the brothel I used to work in, to back up his story, but of course I had already moved on by then and the girls told him they had never heard of me (standard procedure when a guy comes in looking for a girl and uses her real name). His little secret got him absolutely nowhere.
Ok...and now for my story.....
*grin*
Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 09:21
Guess what guys...last night, I PAID FOR SEX! lol
Last night a girlfriend and I hit the turps and then went to a brothel. I paid for an hour massage with a little brunette cutie that I've had a bit of a crush on for a while - and had the most amazing time I have had in ages!!
She gave me the most exquisite massage, and then - even though I hadn't paid for it and I hadn't asked for it - she got totally carried away and the booking turned into an all out girl on girl sex session. But there was one huge problem...I fell victim to the dreaded knock on the door!!!! LOL Right on the verge of...well, you know what... the receptionist banged on the door and it was over. The cutie called out "Ok", and then fell on me in a heaving mess, and it took all our effort to untangle our bodies and get dressed again. If only I had more money!!!
Anyway, the reason I'm telling you this story (other than to get you really hot at the thought of her beautiful long, silky hair tickling my breasts as she kissed her way down my stomach, while her hard nipples ground into my.....;)), was that being a client was a truly significant experience for me. Seeing things from the other side helped me see stuff that I hadn't understood before. Having been a working girl made things a bit more difficult too, because I couldn't help but try and put myself in her shoes...for example I was worried that she wasn't getting paid enough (coz they gave me a cheap deal), and I knew she was tired so I felt bad making her work. But anyway, here's some things I learned from being a client...
a) I didn't know what the fuck I was allowed to do!! I was scared to touch her at first, because I didn't want to be one of those pain-in-the-ass clients who pay next to nothing and then want the works. When she started to really get into it, I was scared that it was all just an act and that I'd look like a fool if I thought she was actually getting turned on. Even now - after I know full well that she was WELL and truly into it - I can't help but picture her laughing with the other girls about how easy it was to fool me.
b) Time FLEW!!! I could not believe how fast the time went. When you are the one doing the massaging, time drags on forever. I was amazed at how different things felt from the other side! I even looked at the clock to make sure the receptionist hadn't been trying to rip me off - nope, we had actually gone 10 minutes OVER time. It felt to me like I had only been in there for 20 minutes. Now I know why so many clients feel like they have been shorted, even when they weren't.
c) It's too easy to get carried away with the moment and do silly things with money. If I had had more money in my account, I would have given her every cent I had. I desperately wanted to extend. I'm so glad I don't have a credit card!! I watched her chest heaving above me, and her hair falling wildly about her face, and all I could think of was that the next hour would be hot as hell!
And probably the most important thing I learned...
d) It's fucking addictive!!!!
You have no idea how much I want to go back there right now! I was even thinking about working today, just so I could get the money to go back and see her tonight. It's not an emotional thing at all - it's not like I've fallen for her or anything - but the feeling of having someone there solely to please you (with no strings attached) is really quite amazing. I just want to do it again and again. If I was rich, I would be there now...booking her for the whole fucking weekend!! Now I can understand these guys who come in two, three, four times a week - I would too if I had that much expendable income.
So there you go...now I'm a wh*re AND a trick! LOL
Anyone wanna lend me a hundred dollars?? ;)
PurpleNGold
04-20-03, 10:40
Okay. The hot and bothered mission was certainly accomplished.
Beyond that though, a couple of questions came to mind.
* Is this the first time you've paid for a massage in a brothel? Or just the first time that it led to sex?
* Is this also your first time with a woman (other than possibly doing threesomes with clients)?
* Will your new perspective affect the way you approach future sessions with clients?
Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 11:02
Terribly sorry PNG - didn't mean to get you all hot and bothered. ;)
1. This was the first time I've ever paid for a massage, period. I've never even had one done at a beauty parlour, let alone a massage parlour. I really wanted a massage - just to relax me after a long drive to the country and back - and I figured that I would feel more relaxed in a brothel rather than in some brightly lit sports massage place. I had no intentions of it being any more than a massage...although the idea of having sex with her DID cross my mind more than once before I got there!
2. I've slept with women before. Most of my experiences have been with women in two-girl sessions in brothels - but I have been with a couple of women outside of work. One of them started as a 'work relationship' and then continued outside of work for a little while.
3. Hmmm not sure about that one. I would probably make sure I always talked to clients about what they could and couldn't do during the booking. For example, asking them to touch me or telling them what I want them to do to me. But I actually already did that as a rule anyway. (I've always been pretty vocal in bed! LOL) I would probably also make a point of mentioning the time out loud to them as the booking started - so they could see for themselves that I haven't shorted them. I was really amazed by how fast the time went for me.
I'd like to say that I wouldn't encourage guys to spend more money than they wanted to - but the fact is, it's a business. I was already aware of how clients' hormones affected how much money they spent, but I figure that they are adults - if they regret spending the money later, it's their problem. If *I* had spent more money than I wanted to last night, I would have blamed myself, not the girl. Her job is to earn the dollars - mine is to think with my brain and not the throbbing, wet parts of my anatomy.
PurpleNGold
04-20-03, 11:34
Originally posted by RN
Terribly sorry PNG - didn't mean to get you all hot and bothered. ;)
Hell, if I ever monger in your neck of the woods, this post will be at the forefront of my mind and you've got a client ;) So, you've just drummed up some business ;)
1. This was the first time I've ever paid for a massage, period. I've never even had one done at a beauty parlour, let alone a massage parlour. I really wanted a massage - just to relax me after a long drive to the country and back - and I figured that I would feel more relaxed in a brothel rather than in some brightly lit sports massage place. I had no intentions of it being any more than a massage...although the idea of having sex with her DID cross my mind more than once before I got there!
Wow. What an intro you got then. I wish my first massage wouldv'e turned out that way. My first massage was from an old (and we're not just talking kAMP old here) lady in a massage class: nothing sexual there!
2. I've slept with women before. Most of my experiences have been with women in two-girl sessions in brothels - but I have been with a couple of women outside of work. One of them started as a 'work relationship' and then continued outside of work for a little while.
Did you sleep with women privately before you ever did it professionally? Or was it something you realized was fun because of the professional experiences?
Also, would you consider dating this girl? It seems that there was some serious chemistry between you two, so I was wondering if this might be one of those cases where you could find someone who would understand your past/present work/sex history and yet not hold it against you. And, since it would be a lesbian relationship and your clients are men, maybe the jealousy factor wouldn't be so serious?
That last question brought up another one to my head. Do you ever get female clients?
3. Hmmm not sure about that one. I would probably make sure I always talked to clients about what they could and couldn't do during the booking. For example, asking them to touch me or telling them what I want them to do to me. But I actually already did that as a rule anyway. (I've always been pretty vocal in bed! LOL)
Just to comment, I love it when a girl tells me what she wants in bed. I've never been an egoist about being a great lover, so I figure if the woman takes that initiative, I can relax about having to guess. Of course, there are times, that I'm not really into worrying about her getting off and then I'd have to come up with a tactful way to say, please you're breaking my concentration ;)
I would probably also make a point of mentioning the time out loud to them as the booking started - so they could see for themselves that I haven't shorted them. I was really amazed by how fast the time went for me.
I like this idea a lot. I think I'm gonna try that when I'm in my next encounter--point out the time when the session starts and when it ends. If it's woefully short because I was rushed (as opposed to the girl just being too hot for me to hold myself off) I'll feel justified in complaining and possibly reducing the tip.
I'd like to say that I wouldn't encourage guys to spend more money than they wanted to - but the fact is, it's a business. I was already aware of how clients' hormones affected how much money they spent, but I figure that they are adults - if they regret spending the money later, it's their problem. If *I* had spent more money than I wanted to last night, I would have blamed myself, not the girl. Her job is to earn the dollars - mine is to think with my brain and not the throbbing, wet parts of my anatomy.
I agree with this completely. It's a business transaction, and in business, your goal is to get the best deal you can, right?
Thanks for sharing this story. And, I hope my questions aren't too personal. I've never had the opportunity, nor prompting, to enter into a discussion like this, and figure I might as well ask everything that comes to mind since the chance may never come again.
Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 12:12
Hey, feel free to ask me anything that springs into your mind. That's why I'm here! I've learnt a lot from clients by hanging around this board for so long - I'd like to think that occassionally I can return the favour. As for sharing the story...well, it was more of a case that I just HAD to tell SOMEONE. The way I feel at the moment, I want to shout it from the rooftops! LOL
"Hell, if I ever monger in your neck of the woods, this post will be at the forefront of my mind and you've got a client.'
Be my guest. You can never have too many smart, sexy men standing on your doorstep. ;)
"Did you sleep with women privately before you ever did it professionally? Or was it something you realized was fun because of the professional experiences?"
I have always been attracted to women, but I guess my small-town upbringing always led me to believe it was just a phase (or even worse, some sort of sexual dysfunction!) I never acted on my attraction before I started working. Having sex with women professionally made me realise that yes, it was normal to be attracted to women and yes, I did enjoy it! It was a way to 'break the ice' I suppose - and gave me the opportunity to try something that I may not have done had I not been a worker.
"Also, would you consider dating this girl? It seems that there was some serious chemistry between you two, so I was wondering if this might be one of those cases where you could find someone who would understand your past/present work/sex history and yet not hold it against you."
I have to admit - I would LOVE to date this girl. We have known each other for quite a long time now on a personal level, and I did sense that my attraction to her may be mutual. I guess it would probably be the ideal situation really. We could both work, and not have the petty jealousy and insecurities that invariably come with most working girls' R/L relationships. And yes, I think that being in a lesbian relationship, where having sex with men at work would be easily 'seperated' from the R/L relationship, would make things a lot less confusing.
"Do you ever get female clients?"
Yeah, I've seen quite a few. It's not ALL that common at the moment, but as more and more women gain financial and sexual independence, I think the business will grow. I saw many more female clients last year than I did five years ago, for example.
"I agree with this completely. It's a business transaction, and in business, your goal is to get the best deal you can, right?"
I don't think it's any different to the sales man talking you into buying a bigger and better stereo system than you intended to buy. They suck you in and make you start thinking with your emotions (or your ego), rather than your brain. But we are adults, and we make our own decisions. I actually DID have more money in my account last night - but it was my rent money, and I knew I would kick myself if I spent it. Even though every bone in my body was telling me to stay, I knew that I did not have any 'spare' money to spend on her. If a client can't control himself to that degree - then he has only himself to blame IMHO.
thanks for the answers, rn, and great story! a couple of comments (leading to other questions, of course.)
on the "being found out" side of things -- i'd say that guys have the same general fear, though with us it's obviously not as potentially stigmatizing, rather like the social difference between being seen as someone who gets caught using drugs and someone who's a known dealer (and of course i'm talking about the comparison in perception and not making a comparison, other than the potential for addiction, that is, lol.) it goes to show just how negative the overall perceptions regarding prosititution are -- for guys, i'd say it's seen as putting you into one of two categories: either you're an oversexed animal who can't control himself or you're someone who is obviously a loser woth normal relationships. who wants either label? (we've discussed the labels for women, and nobody wants them either, naturally.)
good to hear that your ex wasn't able to use it against you. a couple of follow-ups: did you tell the brothel why you had to leave? does that happen often -- that a worker will need to leave for personal reasons, either because of being recognized or of being, say, too personally connected to a place so she can be easily found? also, i know your relationship with him is a mess anyway, but did this inflame it? you and he still have to deal with the kids -- does this still enter into the equation?
your story was great. since we just had a rather extensive (and contentious) discussion on massage in the thailand and la sections, let me simply say that as good as this session was, i'd advise you not to rule out serious massage either. they can really do you a world of good in a completely different manner than what you experienced!
your comments regarding the experience were truly perfect and perceptive; you managed to encapsulate a lot of the client issues in one crystallized list.
the boundaries/what is allowable aspect is an important one, and one that's always at issue for clients. attitudes (as are demonstrated in comments on this board) can run from the "she's a sperm receptacle, so i can do whatever i want" approach to the "i don't think she likes this, how can i continue" side of things. knowing boundaries/reading the person is simply far more complex when you're dealing with a person who's professionally able to mask their reactions and feelings. i've ended sessions where i felt clearly that the provider wasn't at all into it or was uncomfortable with being touched in the most basic of ways (i'm talking putting a hand on the back or simple stroking) -- it simply feels too much like [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).
"i was scared that it was all just an act and that i'd look like a fool if i thought she was actually getting turned on." this is always there from a client perspective, and is one of the reasons there have been so many discussions on this board regarding what women are into it and who are not.
the issue of what someone says about you later is always there, of course, on both sides of the equation. i'm curious about this because i think it's perhaps even more an issue for a client, in an odd way -- a provider can be seen to have a bad day or session, but a client doesn't really fall into that same situation of having been, say, overworked on the sex side of things. obviously, if someone is a regular you note differences on both sides of the equation. how much discussion does go on about clients between providers in terms of both boundaries and approach? extending that, i'm sure you've had sessions with people who just sorta made your skin crawl with their touch - has anyone like that ever become a regular for you? how did you handle it?
the time issue is always something i bump up against, and that knock at the door is something i find incredibly both frustrating and intimidating. i'll usually either simply pay for longer sessions up front, or will tell the woman i'll tip heavily if we run over. that's probably why in places like thailand i usually go for overnights. in an hour there's just not enough time to properly be both sexual and sensual, and i've always liked making love more than just fucking. i've had enough sessions in quasi-public settings where i can hear/feel the clock ticking to know that i don't particularly like them. stating the time up front seems like an excellent way to simply establish the start of the session so it's clear how the length shakes out, but i'd be careful not to go much further, as there's a wonderful dichotomy between getting everything you pay for and feeling time pressure.
in choosing your little brunette cutie (and we could take for granted you'd not choose a blonde on principle :d) i'm taking it that consciously or subconsciously you were hoping sparks would fly. in that, you're exactly like most clients -- who choose someone with whom they hope not only for some degree of fantasy, but in the hope there will be a connection. (and the lack of that connection is probably more pertinent to disappointment than the specifics of the act.) combine that with the aspect you mention of having someone who is there simply for your pleasure, and it absolutely is addictive, and you can see why many men [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) away huge amounts of money.
finally, regarding your comment that you would love to date this girl -- there's where the line gets clearly drawn between you and "us." because you kind of know her as a fellow worker, even after having been her client you'd still be able to get rid of that barrier. for a guy to want to get personally involved means a major role transgression and constant uncertainty about motives, not to mention the possibility of morphing (or being seen morphing) into your client from hell who didn't understand the limits of the relationship and what was real and what was not.
Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 21:15
Joe,
"Did you tell the brothel why you had to leave?"
The owner was there when I got caught out. I was in hiding from my ex at the time - she knew that and she knew that I would have to leave immediately. She had no problem with it.
"Does that happen often -- that a worker will need to leave for personal reasons, either because of being recognized or of being, say, too personally connected to a place so she can be easily found?"
Yeah, it happens a bit. Most girls will leave and change their working name if they are caught in a brothel by someone of any real significance, etc. Mind you, we don't really need a reason to up and leave. Brothels are illegal here, and girls are not employees. We can come and go as we please. (The only problem being that you lose regulars and eventually you will become 'known' around the traps as being unreliable).
"Also, I know your relationship with him is a mess anyway, but did this inflame it? You and he still have to deal with the kids -- does this still enter into the equation?"
It made it worse at the time, but it soon blew over. Most people did not believe a word he said, and those that did were not my friends anyway. It's never caused me any problems since then. As for the kids access stuff, I do not deal directly with him at all - not for years. I only speak with his parents. They mediate for us. He is remarried now, and (thankfully!!) I'm no longer on his list of people to irritate.
"Your comments regarding the experience were truly perfect and perceptive; you managed to encapsulate a lot of the client issues in one crystallized list."
I'm glad! The main reason why I wrote it was to see how close my experience had been to the 'male' experience.
"How much discussion does go on about clients between providers in terms of both boundaries and approach?"
Do you mean in general, or about particular clients? In general, 'old' girls will talk to new girls about setting boundaries that they are comfortable with, and ways to deal with difficult clients or situations. We would also warn each other about individual clients if we knew something particular about him - for example, that he's prone to taking the condom off, or that he has bitten another girl's nipple during a booking. If you mean AFTER the booking - we never talked all that much about specifics unless someone was violent or cruel, or exceedingly good in bed! Someone who was lousy in bed - or just 'ordinary' - wouldn't rate a mention. Boring sex was just considered part of the job! LOL
"Extending that, I'm sure you've had sessions with people who just sorta made your skin crawl with their touch - has anyone like that ever become a regular for you? How did you handle it?"
One client in particular stands out in my mind. He was my regular for about 9 months - he came once a week without fail. I HATED him. He most certainly made my skin crawl. But he was extremely rich, always tipped well, gave me a very regular income and I knew what he wanted and how he wanted it. So I kept seeing him. After months of forcing myself to see him, I got to the point where I was dreading him coming in. Then one day he said something truly disgusting, and that was the final straw - I told him straight out that I would never see him again.
As for my brunette cutie...no I didn't pick a brunette out of spite! LOL I love dark and/or dark haired women - blondes do nothing for me. (I have a bit of a Latino/Spanish fetish actually. Not many of them in Oz though!) This particular girl though, she was chosen well before I got to the brothel. We had talked about it together a couple of weeks ago. And yes, I chose her because I was attracted to her, and I hoped she was attracted to me. But I can honestly say that was because I wanted the massage to be 'sensual' - not that I thought we might end up having sex!
And dating her...well, realistically, that's probably not an option. She was definitely into the booking, but that certainly doesn't mean she would want to see me outside of work. I've had great sex with heaps of clients too, but it doesn't mean I would actually date any of them. And to tell the truth, I recognised her pulling a couple of 'keeping the distance' tricks that I use myself on clients. Whether that was a conscious effort or just habit, I don't know. It would be nice to see her outside of work, but I guess I'm not holding my breath.
That said....I, errr, went back there tonight. *blush* I had another amazing 'massage' and a spa. She spoiled me rotten. She also kissed me full on the lips, which kind of spun me out. She kissed me again before we left the room. Then she kissed me goodbye, in front of the other girls! My legs are still like jelly. I think I've been without sex for waaaaay too long!! LOL
Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 21:27
PS.
"For a guy to want to get personally involved means a major role transgression and constant uncertainty about motives, not to mention the possibility of morphing (or being seen morphing) into your client from hell who didn't understand the limits of the relationship and what was real and what was not."
That is exactly what I was scared of being seen as tonight. I even rang her before I went there, to ask if was ok for me to come two nights in a row - I told her that I didn't want her to think I was some deranged love-struck client! And then of course, if things WERE to go further between us, I would have the same worries as you guys do about where the business relationship ends and the real one begins. If she gave me her phone number and asked me to see her privately, would she still expect me to pay? Does she love me, or does she just want a regular income? You know the drill.
It's true that it would probably be easier for me to make the cross from client to girlfriend - being that I am more of a sex worker than a client to her - but it would still be a pretty confusing and difficult transition to make.
Either way, dating is certainly not on the cards...so I don't have to worry about all that!
PurpleNGold
04-20-03, 22:50
Originally posted by RN
We can come and go as we please. (The only problem being that you lose regulars and eventually you will become 'known' around the traps as being unreliable).
If that happens, do you get barred from the brothel? Do you have scheduled shifts? Or is it more like a freelancer bar type situation?
[i]for example, that he's prone to taking the condom off
Does this happen so often? Are these guys psychos?
we never talked all that much about specifics unless someone...or exceedingly good in bed!
If that happens, is there ever a competition by the girls to snag him as a client next time? Possible discounts?
...And to tell the truth, I recognised her pulling a couple of 'keeping the distance' tricks that I use myself on clients.
Could you maybe list some of these? It'd be interesting to look for them during a session. This could help with the 'was she into it' question that's been brought up.
That said....I, errr, went back there tonight. *blush* I had another amazing 'massage' and a spa. She spoiled me rotten. She also kissed me full on the lips, which kind of spun me out. She kissed me again before we left the room. Then she kissed me goodbye, in front of the other girls! My legs are still like jelly. I think I've been without sex for waaaaay too long!! LOL
You're addicted just like the rest of us :) Just curious, would you ever consider paying a guy for it? I mean, it's not like a sexy woman ever has to pay, but there is something different about pay-for-play that makes it worthwhile even if you don't have to pay. Oh, and just in case the answer is yes, I'm available for travel ;) Seriously, it would be interesting to hear about how your experience with a sex worker of the opposite sex compares with your brunette cutie.
RN (and others),
I've been lurking here semi-periodically, and your reply to JZ has birthed two questions that just won't stay down ...
1) With regards to someone "making your skin crawl" -- could you (or anyone else) talk about what causes this. (and talk about the reverse -- something like making your skin sigh). Certainly it is a personal goal to improve the quality of my touch. Regardless, I find it a fascinating subject.
2) If you would be comfortable sharing it, what are some, "keeping the distrance tricks"?
*Smiles*,
David
P.S. Hello everyone. It has been quite a while -- I'm glad that the ... WSG Morality/Ameican Women "Community" still thrives.
Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 23:12
David! How are you, gorgeous? It's been ages! Welcome back. :)
I don't know why some people make your skin crawl. I guess a lot of it has to do with chemistry - or "bad vibes" - and some of it has to do with attitude. I couldn't possibly explain it. It just seems to happen sometimes.
I also don't think I could explain the 'keeping the distance moves' either! (And I'm not sure that I should give away ALL of our secrets! LOL) It's just negative body language I guess...subtly moving her pelvis so that you can't touch her 'down there', making you change position suddenly when you start to grope her, standard "You're pretty cute yourself" responses to compliments, that sort of thing. The things that I picked up on were much more subtle than that though, which is why I don't know whether she did it on purpose or out of habit. I guess I'd have to sleep with her outside of her working environment to be sure - it's easy to just fall into a routine if you're in your regular working room.
So good to see you again, babe.
Rubber Nursey
04-20-03, 23:29
PNG,
"If that happens, do you get barred from the brothel?"
That depends how you leave. If you storm out in the middle of a shift, or leave without giving them any notice, you probably wouldn't be allowed back for a while. But if you tell them that you are going elsewhere for a while, they will usually take you back later. Brothels can't advertise for staff here - so they will do just about anything to get staff. Even if it means hiring girls who have screwed them around previously.
"Do you have scheduled shifts?"
Every brothel is different, but the majority have set shifts - however, the girls usually dictate what days they will work, and how long their shifts will be. So many girls are working mums or students working around university classes, that brothels need to be pretty flexible with hours. Otherwise girls just go elsewhere, or work for themselves.
"Does this happen so often?"
All the bloody time.
"Are these guys psychos?"
Hell yes!! Unfortunately, that's the bad side to our industry having such an excellent STD record. Guys aren't scared of getting a disease from us - we are much more scared of THEM!
" If that happens, is there ever a competition by the girls to snag him as a client next time? Possible discounts?"
I don't know about discounts - but catfights are common! LOL
"Could you maybe list some of these?"
I really don't know how to explain it. It's just body language. See my post to David.
"You're addicted just like the rest of us"
You got that right!!!
"Just curious, would you ever consider paying a guy for it?"
I don't think so. I'm not sure why. I do love men, but I don't think I'd ever pay a man for sex. I guess it's probably more to do with the fact that I've been a worker - if I'm going to have sex with a strange man, I want to be paid for it! If I wanted have sex with a guy, I could put an ad in the paper and earn some dollars. As a general rule, most of my clients have been more than willing to 'spoil me'...I don't think I'd ever need to pay for it.
OK, moving it here from the AW section. On the Costa Rica thing, I am not sure if it is specifically legal and I rather doubt it. I think it is just an absence of laws against it. But it is not regulated other than maybe the brothels have to do all the things any other business has to do as far as obeying fire codes and so forth, if they even have those there. But what I mean is that it isn't a situation where it is "legal unless" or "legal until" or "legal if" or anything like that.
You have to realize that Latin America is a whole different world compared to the US, Canada, Oz, Western Europe, etc. You are expected to protect yourself, rather than being protected by things like safety barricades around construction ditches and so forth. If you fall in a ditch, it is your fault for not looking, not the construction company's fault for not putting up bright orange tape. That, of course, has its upside and its downside but I personally prefer it as opposed to passing laws saying I can't ride a bicycle without a helmet (Oz, at least in Melbourne) or I can't ride a motorcycle without a helmet (most of the states in the US, although not the one I live in) or I can't fucking buy booze on Sunday (my state and yes I am running low on beer again; I guess I'm just a slow learner).
I don't see why prostitution "has" to be regulated any more than shoeshine stands "have" to be regulated. Even health cards like they have in the Nevada brothels (terrible, rotten, un-fun places IMO) are total bullshit since they ignore the incubation period and thus perhaps do more harm than good by giving a false sense of security.
Oh, and I don't know how it works from providers' standpoints but one good way for the patron to "keep [emotional] distance" is to be a
Dickhead
PurpleNGold
04-21-03, 00:24
Originally posted by RN
PNG,
"If that happens, do you get barred from the brothel?"
That depends how you leave. If you storm out in the middle of a shift, or leave without giving them any notice, you probably wouldn't be allowed back for a while. But if you tell them that you are going elsewhere for a while, they will usually take you back later. Brothels can't advertise for staff here - so they will do just about anything to get staff. Even if it means hiring girls who have screwed them around previously.
This is a double edged sword. On one edge, you have the idea that the girls have control like they should. There's no question about the woman's choice in the matter. On the other edge, the client complaining to the house about crappy service would have little effect. I suppose the former is a more important issue though.
"Just curious, would you ever consider paying a guy for it?"
I don't think so. I'm not sure why. I do love men, but I don't think I'd ever pay a man for sex. I guess it's probably more to do with the fact that I've been a worker - if I'm going to have sex with a strange man, I want to be paid for it! If I wanted have sex with a guy, I could put an ad in the paper and earn some dollars. As a general rule, most of my clients have been more than willing to 'spoil me'...I don't think I'd ever need to pay for it.
I was just thinking that it's still different when you are the paying customer. You can negotiate up front for exactly what you want as opposed to having the client calling the shots.
I take it then, RN, that your ex either didn't take the sex worker issue to his parents or that they didn't believe him. It's easy to imagine grandparents getting ansty (or at least curious) about such information.
I know that women change places of business fairly regularly, for a variety of reasons -- the grass looking greener, disagreements with folks, boredom, etc., but that's different that being "forced" to based on real-life intrusions, which is why I was curious. I've seen the same thing happen in the go-go scene, as even though the stigma's not as high, it's still there.
My question on discussion between providers was in response to your comment -- "I can't help but picture her laughing with the other girls about how easy it was to fool me" which made me curious about how often such a thing actually went on. (And no, I'm not sitting here worrying obsessively about this and imagining that sex workers form little deconstruction circles after each session talking me down; I've had enough greetings from workers who are obviously glad to see me on a return to keep my ego strong enough.) Certainly there's got to be some degree of shop talk and, umm, sharing of professional techniques for parting clients with their money, along with the issues of setting boundaries and arning others about people who are problems. Illusion is, after all, a large part of the game.
The skin crawling thing I do find interesting on several levels. First, it really does point to the flip side of the business that guys don't tend to think about all that much -- it's all about how hot the girl is or isn't, and you always hear much more on the "she was obviously attracted to me" perspective as opposed to "she had to put up with my drunken stinky ass and bad breath." Not to mention just pure pheremonic disharmony. I had a couple of discussions on this end of things, including with the woman with whom I spent most of my time in Thailand, who, after we'd been together the first night, positively begged me, if I did nothing else and never wanted to see her again, to please come and buy her out on Friday night (a couple of days hence) because there was a guy who always came in then and picked her whose touch she couldn't stand. She was actually willing to pay me back for whatever costs I incurred, but she had to have someone publicly buy her out to send the message of unavailability to the guy. This happened a couple of weeks in a row. (And I certainly didn't have her pay me back.)
David, good to see you again. The women I've spoken with on the touch issue (as it's also something of concern to me -- I prefer sex to be a partnership experience, and I find having a genuinely responsive partner to be the biggest turnon available -- and the opposite being true as well) have said several things in common about the guys who they couldn't stand -- there was no kindness in them (or in their hands), they tended to devour the woman as if she was a meal and not a participant (the woman I mention above said this guy spent lots of time looking at and touching her body and no time whatsoever looking at or acknowledging her), and there was never any lightness or laughter involved -- everything was either very intense or very dispassionate, but no sense of play was involved.
RN, now take a night off and save your money lest you have regrets in the morning about spending too much of it on something fleeting and not real. If you end up with that you'll really understand what at times can be the client perspective :)
PurpleNGold
04-21-03, 02:58
Originally posted by joe_zop
including with the woman with whom I spent most of my time in Thailand, who, after we'd been together the first night, positively begged me, if I did nothing else and never wanted to see her again, to please come and buy her out on Friday night (a couple of days hence) because there was a guy who always came in then and picked her whose touch she couldn't stand. She was actually willing to pay me back for whatever costs I incurred, but she had to have someone publicly buy her out to send the message of unavailability to the guy. This happened a couple of weeks in a row. (And I certainly didn't have her pay me back.)
Joe, why didn't she just refuse to go with the guy? The BG's have that right, don't they? RN said she went with the guy for money untill he finally stepped over a line where she no longer found the money worth it. I guess, my point is that this seems like the girl used this as an excuse to get stable BF's from you (she might have gotten them anyway) while avoiding her other customer--without you, she could have said no, but might not have made money that night.
In my profession, if I don't like the client I don't take their business, period, even if they pay well. I don't know about some of this stuff. It seems like what is good for the goose should be good for the gander and some of this seems like women trying to play both ends against the middle (what a surprise). Or, maybe I'm just a Dickhead. I always treat SWs with respect and I am a lot of fun and most of the time everything works out great. But if I wanted to get involved with personal problems and baggage and bail women out of things they had previously gotten themselves involved with, to me that would defeat the whole purpose of mongering. Might as well get married and get it over with.
So I don't see why RN would keep doing a guy who gave her the creeps and I don't see why JZ would bar fine some gal who might not be who he had in mind to bar fine just to keep her from having to deal with some other guy with whom she had problems. I agree with PNG (a fairly rare occurrence); just tell the guy to get lost.
And, if that is not feasible then the situation is one of indentured servitude and the entire venue should be boycotted. Perhaps this is why I prefer to deal with completely independent SWs instead of the club/brothel scene, and that in turn is perhaps why Argentina and Costa Rica are my favorite mongering destinations. No third parties involved, just do you want to fuck me and for how long and how much and what will be permitted?
Granted every SW is in it for the $ and I am in it for the pussy but if I really thought they were so desperate they couldn't turn me down if they wanted to, I would walk away. I am a monger, not an eleemosynary organization.
Well, PNG, of course she could refuse him, but she said he paid quite well (substantially more than I did, as my rate was lower by the given night but consistently there night by night) and she was absolutely in the scene for the money. No missionary zeal, no sense of higher purpose or the societal context that we sometimes see from RN, just need the money so here's what I have to put up with to get it. Given that she was pretty uncomfortable with the whole game in any event, this was just one more thing to put up with, I think, just higher on the discomfort scale. She also worked at a place where there was a great deal of pressure put on the women to generate barfines, as the mamasan was far more worried about keeping the guys happy than the girls, since that's where the money came from. Yes, she could refuse the guy, but she'd be fined for it. There's absolutely no question that part of the reason she liked being with me was that it was just one person where she knew what would happen.
Dickhead, I fully intended to barfine her anyway, so there was nothing at all charitable about it, as she was exactly what I had in mind -- that's why I spent close to two months with her. But she didn't know that at the time, after a first night spent together.
And there was certainly no reason to need to go back specifically on Friday nights after the first one to be barfined publicly in front of the guy (especially when I'd been taking her every night in any event, and often went several days without going in and paying) unless it was to make it obvious specifically to him she was taken. She pretty well hated the place, since they did little but screw her over monetarily and emotionally. But Friday was the one day we had to make it to the bar for a couple of weeks to put on this show until I just finally convinced her I could just tip the mamasan to tell the guy. By this point it was pretty obvious to everyone that she was not available in any event.
I fully agree with your take on thing regarding provider choice, DH, which is why I avoid anything where I get a whiff of indenture or lack of choice, and also call things off if I at all get the sense that someone's going with me reluctantly. But I don't really see a lot of difference between the SW and club scenes in that regard. Sure, a SW can turn someone down -- but it's the same equation of give up the money or not.
My take on mongering is a bit different than yours, DH, in that in situations such as the one to which I'm referring I want companionship as much as I want boinking. This woman was smart as pretty much anyone I've ever met, and working on her mind constantly (while also being astonishingly sexy.) And while I'm all for the thrill of the hunt and the bee visiting many flowers, and certainly have done that and still do, I also find that the most satisfying sex comes from people who know each other's likes, dislikes, and bodies, and hooking up with someone regularly means that can happen, even if it means getting the personal side of things. The marriage framework doesn't bother me in the same way it appears to with most guys here, since I prefer it. I like having a woman around, period, and it orients and informs how I walk through the day. (The contentious points she and I had we about the amount of time spent together, and when those occurred, not the sex.) In this case, for example, I was heavily involved in her personal life -- met her brother and cousins, helped her move to a new place, etc. -- but it was always very clear that this was at core a client-customer relationship, and that as of X date I was simply gone.
Dickhead: Hard to disagree with you when you say you are a dickhead.
Joe_Zop: I see you have learned some new big words. You never gave me that C Mai contact, not that it really matters. That's life, you hit a town, meet a girl, hear her sad tale, bang her, move on. I see where she was coming from with the Friday/Saturday nite special. There are some women even won't let me fuck them (takes all yupes, huh?). After we do our tour of duty, it is nice to sit down and figure who we should have banged more and who we should have banged less. Maybe the ladies do the same. I guess they are like us: some of them are human, and some of them are..................
Well, Skinless, sorry about not giving you her contact info, but I'm simply respecting her wishes -- she didn't want to be identified as being in the game, chose the bar specifically because she could stay hidden inside and no one would identify her as a bar girl, etc. (I don't share or really understand the "she's just a wh*re, who cares what she wants" mentality I've seen in some places that says if she was fool enough to give you her picture, name, etc., then it's fine to broadcast it everywhere.) Going out with her was always an adventure, even to eat, as she took great pains to have us go places where her school friends would not come across her. Before I headed out she had left the bar and had a job working for a travel agency while still juggling going to school. Whether the job's still happening or not, or whether it was the typical TG cover story I've no idea, but I hope it's true as she's a very nice person with solid plans and dreams, and was certainly working hard at college. If it was all a scam it was a far more elaborate one than with most, and I doubt it as bright as she was I never got the sense she was that good an actress. Most things were pretty evident on her surface.
Either way, whatever, as I had the time I had regardless. And as Whitman said and as I strive toward, "The poet judges not as a judge judges but as the sun falling around a helpless thing."
Thank you Joe. I see where she is coming and I am very confident your choice in women is much better than your choice in poets. I am sure many ladies have such tales and I really love them for it. Beats paid sex, which is kinda boring most of the time. BTW, the sun can be very ruthless as many a fairy story can attest. Not me though. I am a little angel of mercy and light to all the ladies of the night.
Rubber Nursey
04-21-03, 09:47
Dickhead,
"You are expected to protect yourself, rather than being protected by things like safety barricades around construction ditches and so forth. If you fall in a ditch, it is your fault for not looking, not the construction company's fault for not putting up bright orange tape."
AMEN! I get so fed up with all this litigation and everyone blaming someone else for their own stupidity. We are adults. If you fall in a hole because you weren't looking where you were going, then you're a fuckin' idiot. Most people would just feel like a fool and walk off with their heads hung in shame - Western people sue the Town Council. Morons. (And that stupid bicycle helmet law is Australia wide!)
And the absence of laws is exactly what I would like to see. Brothels do not need any "sex industry specific" legislation or regulations. They can function perfectly well under the general health and safety provisions that ALL businesses have to follow. Unfortunately a complete absence of law is something that our Government is not willing to trial. The need to "protect the community from prostitution" is too great apparently.
PNG,
"On the other edge, the client complaining to the house about crappy service would have little effect."
Yes and no. Working in an illegal business has it's pitfalls. Because there are no employee contracts, etc, we can come and go as we please - but because there is nobody overseeing our working conditions, brothels can also use illegal measures to 'punish' workers. Workers who are complained about are fined or have their wages withheld, they are forced to refund clients out of their own money, receptionists give other girls bookings over the girl who is in trouble, they are taken off shift (suspended)...and if things get bad enough, they are 'blackmarked' around town (owners ring other owners and gossip about girls) or there are even threats made to contact loved ones and dob them in for working. Complaints to brothel owners are definitely taken seriously, and almost always work out in the clients favour.
"I was just thinking that it's still different when you are the paying customer. You can negotiate up front for exactly what you want as opposed to having the client calling the shots."
I'm still not sure I would pay a man. I guess I also want different things from men and women. Sex with men is more of a passionate, animalistic thing - lots of grunting and groaning and pounding. Sex with women is softer and more 'sensual'. That's really what I was paying for - to be pampered and spoiled. Not sure I would get...nor want...that from a man. (Not for money anyway).
Rubber Nursey
04-21-03, 10:10
for the record, i could have said no to that client that i hated, at any time. part of the reason i kept seeing him was simply greed - it was regular money, and lots of it. the other part was more a case of me giving him the benefit of the doubt. i got seriously awful vibes from him, but i figured that wasn't really his fault. he wasn't very friendly, but he wasn't rough or cruel either. i knew what he wanted so the bookings were easy, and he seemed to like me, so i just thought my instincts were playing tricks with me. then one day he said something that confirmed all my suspicions, and that did it. (you should always trust your instincts!) the money was no longer worth it.
i would never do anything that i really, really didn't want to do. however, in this business you often do things that you don't really like to do. it's only an hour of your life. i don't like fetish bookings much either, but i did plenty of them. i used them as a learning experience, and then moved on. i slept with many guys who breathed spirits in my face, or rubbed me raw in feeble attempts to make me cum, or were so heavy that i couldn't breathe beneath them. it's just part of the job. you can be fussy to a certain extent - but if you're too fussy, you don't make any money. and ultimately, it's money that we are there for.
i can understand how joe's bar girl felt. sometimes there is too much pressure from the boss or from your financial problems, and you feel forced to do things that every bone in your body is telling you not to do. you'll try anything to get out of it. and sometimes you don't even know why that is - maybe it's your instinct. who knows? maybe the guy she was supposed to see, was destined to [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and murder her? i was told a story only last night about a girl who was sent on an escort once and got such bad feelings about it that she left immediately. next day, the news said an escort that had been sent to that same address, had been found tortured and murdered. the girl had been called straight after the girl i spoke to had left. if not for her instinct, it would have been her who had her breasts cut off.
Rubber Nursey
04-21-03, 10:37
joe,
"i take it then, rn, that your ex either didn't take the sex worker issue to his parents or that they didn't believe him."
oh, they knew. they were in the courtroom when my ex told the judge about it! i don't know whether they believed him or not, but i would say they would take his side over mine (i'm not their favourite person). ultimately though, they had to choose between making my life hell, or having access to the kids. as grandparents don't have much sway in family court, they chose the latter. if they had made me want to fight harder, i could have had their access removed.
"my question on discussion between providers was in response to your comment -- "i can't help but picture her laughing with the other girls about how easy it was to fool me" which made me curious about how often such a thing actually went on."
that was more because i am a girl - and because that's not so common, i figured it would be a hot topic. (plus, because they all know me and they would be dying to gossip about it!!) as it happens, she told me they were all begging for the gossip - but she said she told them it was just a massage and it was none of their business. i don't have any reason not to believe her, but then again, it doesn't really bother me either way. what i don't know won't hurt me. lol (of course they all know now - after she kissed me goodbye in front of them all last night!!)
"it's all about how hot the girl is or isn't, and you always hear much more on the "she was obviously attracted to me" perspective as opposed to "she had to put up with my drunken stinky ass and bad breath."
lol. truer words were never spoken! every client is mel gibson in his own mind - and they all fuck like cassanova. ;)
as always, you summed up the "skin crawling" attributes better than i could - especially the "no kindness in his hands". and yes, having a guy see you as a body (or a plaything) without acknowledging that there's actually person that comes along with it, is very frustrating. it's like you are not really there, and he is having sex with a blow-up doll in front of you. the word callous springs to mind - and because you get such a sense that he despises you or that you are just a hole to put his dick into, it almost feels like being raped.
and don't worry - i won't be going back to see her again. aside from the money running out, i just won't have another opportunity. that's why i ended up going back last night. my kids are away for three nights, and she was only working for two of them. if i hadn't gone last night, i wouldn't have had the chance again. but ohhhhh my god, am i glad i did! having the bookings so close together meant that we just 'continued' on from the night before. no hesitations this time - no discomfort. i can still see her straddling my pelvis, her hair tumbling down her shoulders, her breasts heaving above me....ok, better stop there. ;) lol
As it happens, she told me they WERE all begging for the gossip - but she said she told them it was just a massage and it was none of their business.
Ah, the perils of being someone who is well-known in a place, period, and another example of Perth's small-town situation. Now that they all know her ability to keep the gossip will be both more tested and more worth it. :) But your "what I don't know" attitude matches mine -- got enough trouble controlling myself so I sure don't need to worry about controlling someone else.
But pampered and spoiled is not necessarily mutually exclusive from groaning and pounding, since passion's got lots of different forms, as you well know. Dessert is usually a different taste from the main course, but it's still in the meal. And sometimes it is the meal...
It's an interesting tension, isn't it, RN, between the need to be acknowledged as a person and the general need to keep the specifics obscured or distant? True on both the provider and client side of things.
Your comments on consecutive nights as a continuation is exactly why I prefer spending longer time with someone, preferably days. Glad you had the interlude, and it sounds as though you really needed it. Being pampered and paid attention to is certainly one big attraction to the whole scene for men, and I don't think there's an overstock of people in the world who get too much pampering. Too far from it.
Skinless, I was certainly not putting you into the "judge" category, as it's pretty clear that's not you. I agree with you about the stories; they're part of what helps make the woman I'm with more an individual as opposed to simply a body. Who cares if a lot of the stories are much the same? Like that's different from most people -- there have been debates for years among writers and critics about how many core stories or plots there are, with Kipling giving the high water mark at 69, and most other folks saying less than a dozen. Heck, the body is pretty standard in terms of expected parts, but there are still massive variations. So it's never the big picture and always the details that make the difference, and every person's details are different.
And Whitman's someone I read mostly because his approach is fairly alien to me, and because I can acknowledge his importance, but he's far from a major personal favorite. But I like the quote -- recall that he's a northern clime guy, so his version of strong sun is the one that manages after a few months to melt the piles of snow as opposed to the one that beats down unrelentingly :D
Originally posted by RN The need to "protect the community from prostitution" is too great apparently.
Dear Citizenry:
If you do not suppport prostitution, do not patronize one. If you are against homosexuality, don't be one. If you think marijuana is harmful, don't smoke it. If you don't like pickles I guess don't eat them but then you'll need to figure out what to do with all those cucumbers ....
Respectfully,
Richard A. Head, Esq.
Joe_Z: good reply on the sun, so you win there.
Here in Japan, we have many hosts clubs. This is where young studs cater to the needs of female clients. These places makes serious money, much more than any mere brothel, catering to men. Over 60% of the clientele are prostitutes: the trick is to get them drinking (that is where the big bucks are), to pamper them (the key to everything) and NOT to fuck them as that spoils the aura and will stop the cash fl/cow.
There are a bunch of those clubs, aren't there? I remember reading a Time mag article about them a couple of years ago that said the clientele was divided -- sex workers later but office workers early. I don't know of equivalents elsewhere -- do you (or anyone else?) Makes you wonder what it is about Japanese culture particularly that makes them so popular -- maybe it's that Japanese men, out of all those in the world, do the absolute least amount of chores in the home -- a quarter of that of American men and and an eighth that of Swedish men. American women do a bit more than twice as much, where Japanese women do more than seven times as much as their male counterparts. Sounds like grounds for a good pampering to me! :D
Rubber Nursey
04-22-03, 17:08
I think I may be currently going through another aspect of the client experience. :(
This question is probably a little too personal, but tell me guys....
Once the euphoria wears off and you come down from cloud nine - and you think about the fact that no matter how great your 'connection' was with her, she doesn't belong to you - and you know that you may never see her again - and you think about how wonderful it was to have someone to hold you, and it makes you realise how little affection you actually get in your life...
...do you start feeling really sad and lonely and pathetic???
Or is that just me.....
RN, I think the "This is what I have to do to get that in my life?" feeling is a pretty core one -- who wouldn't prefer that such an experience be the norm as opposed to the exception, and an exception you have to purchase at that? I think that sense is the core of much of the anger you see on this board at times, which is mostly profound regret at not having that connection all the time -- the great promise sold to us in literature, TV, movies, etc. It's tough to get enough of having physical closeness and having positive attention lavished on us.
If someone ever distills and bottles something that gives the feeling of that afterglow, it will be the most addictive drug ever to hit the street. I'll be first in line.
This also explains how guys get obsessed with providers, and how the urge to change the client/provider relationship into something else can be so strong.
Rubber Nursey
04-22-03, 17:57
It's downright depressing.
And you're right - I can certainly see why clients get so obsessed sometimes. Actually, it's helped me see why so many clients have become obsessed with ME over the years. I have always made it very clear that it was a business, that I didn't love them, etc...and yet they still fell like flies. Now I think I know what it was. It was because I genuinely enjoyed their company and I genuinely enjoyed the sex. That must have come across to them, and perhaps they talked themselves into believing that I felt more for them than I was letting on.
The fact that this girl was so into it (although, granted we do have a little more of a 'history' than a client normally would with a worker they just picked out of a line-up) made my mind play tricks with me. No, I didn't expect her to fall head over heels in love, or ask me out or anything...but, well, it just makes it harder to accept that the experience wasn't real. I keep thinking about her kissing me - hookers don't kiss!! - and my heart aches with a pitiful lonliness.
You see...this is why I get so pissed off with all these guys who continually say that women have no trouble getting laid. I don't remember the last time I had sex that I wasn't paid to have!! And I sorely miss having someone to tell me that they love me.
Ohhhhh sorry. Just had to get that off my chest. Thanks Joe. :)
Well, RN, perhaps your response here needs to be considered against your statement that you don't really see yourself getting involved with someone. Your recent experience and reaction to it obviously demonstrates desire for the good side of the relationship equation -- though I know you've had your fill of the bad side. Who doesn't need to be loved?
In terms of clients falling for you -- well, honestly, that's part of what you're selling, right? That enjoyment and caring just happens to have a clock and meter attached to it, and that's the part clients try to do away with, not understanding that it's integrally connected to the responses they want.
As far as the whole "women getting laid thing" I still think it's true that an attractive woman has far less trouble getting laid than an attractive man, if she decides that's specifically what she wants. All it takes are the two things that many (most?) men have in abundance -- low standards and a willingness to expose oneself to large portions of potential trouble. :) Your chances at walking up to someone and getting the desired response from simply saying, "I'm unbelieveable horny, come with me now and do something about it" are still simply much higher than mine. Now, if you want sanity and safety attached to the equation, that's an entirely different story... :D
Allow me to weigh in with two observations:
1). If RN is going to be a successful mongerette, she needs to become much more of a Dickhead.
2). This story gives me the impression that RN may not be bisexual but rather gay, since I haven't heard her express this type of feelings about any guy. But then again, she says it's been a long time since she's been with a guy in a non-professional capacity so it could be a coincidence.
Now regarding
"and you think about how wonderful it was to have someone to hold you, and it makes you realise how little affection you actually get in your life...
...do you start feeling really sad and lonely and pathetic???"
that is more similar to what I feel before I go mongering. Afterwards I feel like having a few beers and watching some baseball.
So now you have the viewpoints of both the board's incurable romantic (JZ) and its incorrigible
Dickhead
RN, JZ,
Thank you for your replies. This idea of a balancing act between intimacy and anonymity does sound … fundamental.
RN,
About your experience. Hmm. Strange as it may seem for me to say, I am quite sure I would feel the same (at least at this stage in my life). This is a large part of the reason it never happened.
A profound feeling. (Both the glow and the regret…)
I would never dare to try Joe's drug. Far too dangerous. In some sense it is ok to be helplessly addicted to people, but to a drug?!?! *Smiles*.
David
P.S. RN, I've sent you an e-mail at angie_sweet...
Ah, David, but in this case the drug might be far safer! :D
:) *Laughs*. Probably ... but it would seem easy to lose your humanity.
PurpleNGold
04-23-03, 07:05
Originally posted by RN
...do you start feeling really sad and lonely and pathetic???
This depends on the type of session.
If I feel the urge to splooge and go out and shoot my rocks in a wham-bam session with a good, but all-business provider, then I feel satisfied afterwards--without thought to the lonelieness issue. It's like, okay, physical need taken care of, back to life.
However, after the extended, week-long session with a bg in Thailand, I did feel the loneliness acutely. Coming back to America, I definitely felt the absence of a connection with someone.
But, I've adopted a healthy outlook when it comes to confusing great sex with real connection: The great sex ends when the reality of the relationship intrudes.
Rubber Nursey
04-23-03, 10:07
Ahhh Dickhead. Always the voice of reason. :)
1) I am never going to become a "mongerette" - not unless I win the Lottery! That was a one-off, and unfortunately, a repeat will be well out of my reach for a very long time.
2) Nope...not gay. I've felt this way about a number of men in my time. This is only the second time I've felt this way about a woman (and the other was just a crush. I never touched her). I've not really talked about a man on this board, because I haven't been personally involved with one in the time that I've been here.
Oh, and I'm not bisexual either - I'm just...errrr...greedy! *grin*
Also (in case you're all thinking I'm a total idiot for falling for a hooker after just two nights!), I have had a crush on this particular girl for well over 6 months. I think sleeping with her (for money) was probably not the most intelligent choice I could have made. It changes the whole dynamic of the situation, and I guess I may never know whether or not she would have slept with me just because she wanted me. D'oh.
Joe,
I still don't think I want to be in a relationship - like you said, I just miss the GOOD things about being in one. I don't see myself actually committing to her (or anyone else), but it would be nice to have what's affectionately known here as a 'spare'. Someone that you know cares about you, and you about them, who you have 'on hand' for when the urge strikes you. Otherwise, you both have seperate lives (and see other people).
Thank you so much for sharing your feelings on this with me guys. Especially David...I will reply to your email shortly. :) I do appreciate it. And it has certainly added to my 'understanding clients' experience!
It was the second time that did me over. Too much passion, too much softness, too many shared jokes and knowing smiles. If I ever DO go to see another girl - I'll make sure I only see her once and then forget about her!!
Oh my God....I'm turning into Ze*lda!!!!!
I suspect you're exactly right about risking the chance with her -- it's pretty hard to put the genie back in the bottle and go away from customer/provider. If there's truly the possibility of anything being there, you probably need to wait to see if she comes to you, as opposed to go back to her. In many ways this echoes some of the "if only we'd met under different circumstances" regrets many of us have when finding someone where we sense a greater connection. Because the relationship has already been established as a monetary one it's best to just say, oh well, and move on. Rather like meeting the woman/man of your dreams and discovering they've already met and married theirs.
I've always thought the concept of a "spare" was a wonderful but mostly unworkable one, as it's pretty hard to ensure that both people have and keep the same level of desire for emotional involvement/disinvolvement. I've had a couple of offers in that direction and always shied away because it seems like great potential for pain for one or the other person.
By the way, RN, aren't you changing your song here? Seems to me that you've identified yourself as bisexual here before. If nothing else, especially after waxing rhapsodic here over your recent attraction/experience, such a denial sounds at least a wee bit disingenuous! :)
And I'm sorry, but unless you're going to go borrow some fluids, you're just not gonna manage to treat working women as "sperm buckets" or some such other lovely terminology as Z*lda was prone to using. I say this as someone who agrees with him that the "see her one time and never again" approach is definitely the emotionally safest one, though not agreeing it's necessarily the best. Depends on what you want. (For what it's worth, his perspective seems to me to be precisely the one so reviled by feminists who talk about prostitution as "male masturbation using female bodies" a characterization which I've always thought contained simultaneously both a germ of truth and a far greater misunderstanding of male sexuality.)
DH, now that David's posting again I think I've got some competition for that "romanticist" mantle, and I'd argue that in any event Skinless may truthfully deserve it more than I do, his hinterlands "Heart of Sexual Darkness" tours notwithstanding. He's the one who started waxing ecstatically about mermaids, (though I did definitely join in) and who keeps in touch with the life of a provider he's not seen in a year or two. (All this noted with nothing but affection, Skinless!) He's confessed to loving the hopelessness of it all, whereas I may be obsessed with and talk too much about it, but I don't love the tragedy. I see it more as a perfect little petri dish of primal human desire and foolishness, my own included. Regardless, clearly no one can at all challenge your exaulted station! :D
"a perfect little petri dish of primal human desire and foolishness, my own included"
Mr Zop, you are full of shit. The wife is away right now and I have a young lodger/bed mate who is crazy about me but is into the most bizarre sex games. I feel sorry for her and hope she does not have a nervous breakdown or screw me over in a big way.
This is what we do when the orgy is over.
And the mermaid thing is still there. In my more pensive moments, I think of those women I screwed, putting the jelly on them, pumping away and both of us miles away. L'amour. I think not.
Where did I say l'amour? I most pointedly did not -- I said desire. The romantic notion is always irrevocably tied to the tragic, and to the hopelessness of getting sustained happiness, and that's precisely what the tableau you describe lays out.
Dear Mr Zop: I did not mean to suggest that you were using the language of Mr Bush's latest enemy. Rather, I was making a somewhat cynical comment on ladies I bonked in Bangkok. It is all a game. Linking you to merde was more a comment on your flowery language than your sentiments (I have to understand your language before I can understand what you mean). Anyway, I am busy right now with work and mistresses so go in peace. I meant no harm.
As regards Ms RN' predicament, the simplet thing would be to ask the lad if she wanted an affair. These ladies have, after all, heard it all before. Who knows what might come of it? So, goodbye for some time yet. The bedroom calls.
Rubber Nursey
04-24-03, 06:35
But "bisexual" just sounds so clinical, Joe..."greedy" has a much nicer ring to it. Or should I just say "not fussy"? LOL
"For what it's worth, his perspective seems to me to be precisely the one so reviled by feminists who talk about prostitution as "male masturbation using female bodies""
And MY type of situation is precisely the one that I use in answer to those feminists, to counter those sorts of comments. Prostitution may, in the main, consist of men paying women - but there are many other facets to the industry that those feminists tend to (purposefully, I feel) overlook. Women see women, women see men, men see men, couples see women, couples see couples, men and women see transsexuals. How exactly do those other situations fit in with their idea of female exploitation by men? Did *I* exploit that young woman I saw the other night, as far as the feminazis are concerned? I doubt it - I would probably get three cheers for being in control of my feminine sexuality (and for having lesbian sex instead of being "violated by a man's penis"! LOL).
And there are certainly men out there who behave in the manner that Ze*lda describes - wh*res are sperm buckets, etc - but that's part of the fantasy, isn't it? That's what he wants from a hooker - and she is getting paid to provide it. So long as he is not mentally or physically hurting the girls...and I have to say, I never really got the feeling that he was...his "fuck them and forget them" attitude is just as valid as the guy who comes in looking for intimacy and affection. That's his turn on - and hookers are in the business of turning people on! I personally don't see it as a blight on male sexuality - although I do understand that the rest of society probably sees it that way.
I had a 'spare' for a while - in the period following my divorce. We got together a couple of times a week, and treated each other like 'real' lovers do, but there was no commitment and no expectations, other than good sex. There WAS a certain amount of emotion involved on both sides - but just enough to have real intimacy in the bedroom, not enough to cause us any real trouble. Eventually, he met someone else and I left town shortly after. The same thing happened, which I think I have mentioned before, when I was married and sleeping with another married man. Now THAT'S a win-win situation if ever I saw one! (Open to huge amounts of trouble of course - but thankfully, it didn't go that way for us).
And I'm not sure that there is any real competition between Joe and David for the Mr Romantic title. David presents a view from a time when it was all new and fresh and wonderful, a time which, for many of us, is long forgotten (and it's so nice to be reminded!) - Joe's view is one of a man who has seen the worst of times and, as such, can truly appreciate the best of times. Dickhead? Well he's just a Dickhead - and I happen to love that, too. :)
Rubber Nursey
04-24-03, 09:30
Just so y'all know that I was not sucked in by a talented professional actress (ok, more so I can re-affirm the fact to myself by seeing it in print)....she just called me!!!!! I was so worried that my ability to read people had let me down - that I had allowed myself to fall victim to my ego, like so many other clients do, and dared to think that she enjoyed my company as much as I did hers. Now she wants to see me again - and there certainly won't be any money changing hands this time!!
Next time I pay for someone's company - if there IS ever a next time - I will make sure it's with someone that I have no personal connection to. That was just toooo hard for this 'ole heart!
But it worked out well for you. Maybe she needs love as well. Why complicate things? Meet her and see where it goes. Geez.
But it worked out well for you. Maybe she needs love as well. Why complicate things? Meet her and see where it goes. Geez.
Rubber Nursey
04-24-03, 10:31
"Meet her and see where it goes."
Oh, don't you worry. Wild horses couldn't keep me away!
Congrats, RN, looks like you get to be the exception to the rule! Best of luck. But of course your worry that "I had allowed myself to fall victim to my ego, like so many other clients do, and dared to think that she enjoyed my company as much as I did hers" is a pretty common punter concern, and one of the difficulties therein is that mongers aren't going to have your advantage of knowing someone in advance -- especially with those video cameras giving sex workers the heads up! :) So perceptions must be called into question from the beginning, simply because you start out inside a human video game. My approach is pretty much to always and continually assume it's my ego, since I can more easily count on that to be overactive than I can my judgement.
Ok, how about "pansexual" instead? That has a less clinical feel to it, and might be closer. I'm certainly not objecting to greedy (though, umm, I'd say greedy and needy LOL) but simply brought it up because you outright denied to Dickhead that you were bisexual.
Having actually met the man behind Z*elda, I would doubt very much that he at all treats badly the women he sees. He plays a game adopting the personas of video game characters, and though he certainly believes the perspectives he promotes in terms of the best way to approach things, he also posts with a massive amount of hyperbole, and knows it. He's a nice guy, really, and I look forward to having a drink with him whenever I make it back to Thailand.
I obviously don't agree with that feminist perspective; I was simply noting that the rhetoric and fantasy reinforces it. To play devil's advocate, though, feminists would say that you, transexuals, etc., are simply adopting the traditional male role in order to try to achieve the male power position (I've been in enough discussions/arguments with feminists on a variety of things to have the rhetoric down pat.) Yes, you might be applauded for that transgressive act, all the while being criticized for supporting a situation which exploits women. My question is usually where the limits would actually be -- is all sex involving men then basically male masturbation? Some feminists would say yes, pretty much the same ones who argue that male/female sex is all and only about power and that the penis is by definition violation. At that point I generally know we've lapsed into foolishness and look out my window and watch the squirrels and robins engaging in male masturbatory reinforcement of their dominant societal positions.
Skinless, I'm sorry to have "flowered you out" but I actually thought I was being pretty accurate. Let me deconstruct it a bit. I can look at RN's concerns about understanding what was and was not real on a level of basic human worry about the viability of emotional perceptions, of men pursuing sex workers as representing one of many searches for an outlet for sexual desire, of Z*elda's Cassandra-like warnings to men to beware the sirens as a song about the difficulty of sorting out the attractive illusions of love when one is wrapped up with sexual urges, of prostitution as the struggle to survive while "selling yourself" as fitting into the same epic context of selling oneself that most people face one way or another. (Sartre would see being a prostitute and being a waiter as the same thing.) In a lot of ways prostitution is the perfect human laboratory study situation in that it's an endlessly repeatable scenario with room for both archetype and individual variance. Put two people in and see what grows, and whatever it is, it's human. As I said before, there are only so many basic plots or stories and most things are a riff on one or another, so understanding both the commonality and the differences contextualizes what we're seeing. Whether we characterize that as men using women as sperm buckets, or masturbation using someone else's body, or an endless search for closeness or love, or whatever, is as much about the perspective we happen to bring to the table as it is about the experience itself.
Maybe that's all me "romanticizing" or "flowering" things, but from my perspective it's just that I tend to see metaphor and archetype in just about everything, all day long. And, RN, you're probably right about your characterization of me -- when we see the worst or best of things, we only have so many options: basically, deny, reject, or embrace. I tend to use the latter, then apply a kind of buddhist perspective and try to celebrate best and worst as being much the same thing. Like anybody else, it's just the struggle to figure out how the fuck I got thrown where I am and what to do about it.
Rubber Nursey
04-24-03, 14:29
I hope I didn't offend you with my "characterisation" of you, Joe. I meant it as a compliment - more that you look at love and romance from a perspective of experience, after a lifetime of love and heartache (like most of us), whereas for David, everything is still new and fresh and he has nothing to weigh his experiences against (which is great to hear, because I am probably pretty jaded).
And I've always favoured the term "trysexual" - I'll try anything once! (And if it feels good...I'll do it again!! LOL)
Don't worry, I took it completely as a compliment, even if it made me feel a bit, ummm, wizened. But as Franklin Jones said, "Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again."
Rubber Nursey
04-24-03, 15:20
Don't be too concerned, Joe. "Wizened" men are dead sexy.
Ah, spoken as one oceans away... :D
Rubber Nursey
04-24-03, 15:47
Actually, speaking of 'wizened' men - here's another rather personal client question for all of you.
If you are perhaps of advancing years, or have thinning hair or are a little on the portly side, or just aren't all that confident in your appearance - how do you feel standing naked in front of an 18 year old supermodel-type sex worker?
I know I felt really quite insecure. This girl was younger than me, prettier than me, bustier than me, etc, and I felt waaaay out of my depth being naked beside her. Does that sort of thing ever enter into your minds? Or is it perhaps that I am female, and as such, I was probably just 'comparing' myself to her?
PosterLion
04-24-03, 15:48
the flowers riot in the
field and
struggle to find their sun
as the butterflies land
on what they are
looking for
maybe that's a little too flowery. :)
PosterLion
04-24-03, 15:56
that's what i
saw passing by
my window
on the
way
to
the
*****house
Rubber Nursey
04-24-03, 15:58
A wh*re by any other name, would taste as sweet. *grin*
Of course you can feel insecure, particularly in a context where there's no established emotional connection where flaws are buffed out or conveniently overlooked. Given that most sex workers are on the younger side, their body flaws, if any, are likely not to have come from aging, so the contrast can be difficult to overlook. Especially in a commercial sex situation, you can't help but expect there's going to be comparing going on.
On the other hand, I always felt insecure when I was younger in different ways -- performance anxiety, nervousness, etc. Now that I'm "wizened" I know more where I stand in the spectrum of things, know that I look how I look, that even if everything is an absolute disaster both she and I will recover from it, that I'm neither the best nor worst-looking person who's likely to have come through the door. I also know that women don't put the same degree of stock in the physical as men, (though of course it's still an issue) because they're not as visually oriented in terms of sexuality, so that my personality and actions will have an opportunity to affect the situation regardless of my looks. In the monger case, it frankly doesn't matter as much because in the same way it's mostly irrelevant whether or not the sex worker means a damn thing she says to you (outside of what is permissable) it's also irrelevant as to whether or not she truly finds you attractive. Sounds cold, but it's true. If she's willing to go with you then she's already made a decision that her level of revulsion isn't higher than the desire for the money that's being exchanged.
Thankfully, some degree of desire or lust usually manages to overcome the various rattlings of the brain.
Might have also been that you were female -- but I think it's more that you already had an attraction here and therefore worried if it was mutual.
PosterLion
04-24-03, 16:30
so sweet the flower
overwhelmed by unapproachable beauty
butterflies dance in belladonna
a deadly nightshade of flowering torment
with imprisoning powers of delicious romance
Originally posted by joe_zop
you outright denied to Dickhead that you were bisexual.
A woman lied to me! A sex worker lied to me! Oh, the horror. Oh, the deep rooted psychological damage that could happen...
if I weren't a
Dickhead
Member #1465
04-24-03, 19:55
Originally posted by RN
Actually, speaking of 'wizened' men - here's another rather personal client question for all of you.
If you are perhaps of advancing years, or have thinning hair or are a little on the portly side, or just aren't all that confident in your appearance - how do you feel standing naked in front of an 18 year old supermodel-type sex worker?
I know I felt really quite insecure. This girl was younger than me, prettier than me, bustier than me, etc, and I felt waaaay out of my depth being naked beside her. Does that sort of thing ever enter into your minds? Or is it perhaps that I am female, and as such, I was probably just 'comparing' myself to her?
Just some comments on this one.
I'm as you say "wizened" and have grey hair (still all of it is around) and have a bit to much beer so my figure is not what it used to be. Do I feel anything strange standing naked in front of an 18 year old. Yes of course I do. First of all 18 year olds are a bit to young for me but lets say 22 instead. But what it comes down to is that we both normally know why we are doing this. She because she wants or needs some money and me because I want or need some sex. Of course in some countries that I prefer I love the GFE experience and then I always wished that I was younger and nicer but I think the same is true there. They know what they want or need and I know what I want.
Rubber Nursey
04-25-03, 05:03
Sorry if I burst your bubble Dickhead. I'm a chick. We lie. Deal with it. LOL
Noooo I wasn't actually outright denying that I was bisexual - the "greedy" thing was just a joke. Yes, I am bisexual. I love boys. I love girls. I love a boy and a girl at the same time. I love CROWDS of boys and girls at the same time. Coat me in chocolate sauce and throw me to the lesbians, I'm queer as fuck. Everyone happy now?? ;)
Anyway.....
Joe, I don't think that's cold at all. In truth, (as you would know), we see it in exactly the same way. We don't care what you look like, either. It's commercial sex - not a dating agency.
I just wondered if deep down, beneath the "I'm paying for sex, what does it matter" attitude, there was ever maybe a feeling of self consciousness or fear of not measuring up. As a working girl I often felt it - but then, we are more "on show" than clients are, and are often picked solely on our looks. And if you know that the last person your client saw was a total babe, you can't help but wonder what he's thinking about you in comparison. I thought that perhaps the same things went through YOUR minds...am I as well-hung/good-looking/talented in bed/young/etc as the last guy she saw. I guess that depends on what you are looking for in the booking though - as Oskar said, it would probably be different depending on whether you wanted an all weekend GFE, or a quick bang against a wall.
Ps...Welcome, Oskar! :)
Rubber Nursey
04-25-03, 05:19
By the way, if it's any consolation...I (and many other girls that I have worked with) always MUCH preferred older men. Not only do they normally behave more like gentlemen and treat you with more respect, but they were more likely to pick you because of your personality rather than your looks alone. Because they usually picked a personality similar to their own, there was more chance of "clicking" with them, and really enjoying the booking. (Older men have also had a chance to refine their bedroom technique ;)) I actually hated seeing young guys - and even worse, young, good-looking guys. They are more likely to treat you like a piece of meat, and they are so caught up with how good they look while they are banging you, they forget you are actually there!
Hi RN,
Being an older guy, I was rather intrigued with your latest comments. While I don't "look" old other than my grey hair, I've found essentially the same things that you mentioned - despite the emphasis on a youthful appearance here in America.
Since I've turned grey, women now come up to me and start conversations right out of the blue. I'm truly amazed. I've even had women come up to me at bars to talk to me, ask me to dance, etc., and they are often quite young. Here in America this is not standard protocol. At first, I had no idea what they wanted or what they were talking about. Again, I'm truly amazed. I've never been much of a "ladies man" and never did this well in my youth it seems (actually I never really tried). So, I would have to concur with your observations.
I also asked the lady who cuts my hair if I should dye it or something. She's quite beautiful, has been around and I really trust her opinions. She reacted with "horror" at my suggestion and was very emphatic that I should leave it grey and that many women like "the look." She said that it shows maturity, that you've made most of your mistakes in life already, etc. She said that the thing which must be avoided, at all costs, is weight or a beer belly. She said that having a gut is an instant turn-off to women and will negate almost all of a guys other qualities. Is this also true of women from Oz???
So, I guess that one need not fear the later years and in some ways it gets better.
Paddy
PS I got a real charge out of your metaphor of being "...covered with chocolate and being thrown to the lesbians." I assume that you were speaking "metaphorically" of course (Wink!).
Well, thanks for the older men reassurance. I'd certainly agree with you on the technique side of thing, in any event. I'm curious -- what kind of age breakdown would you estimate for clients? Is there a difference in terms of generosity or sexual requests by age? (Just thinking that older men probably have higher established incomes, but also are more likely to have higher financial responsibilities, and that sexual preferences could either widen or become more established with age.)
To take another crack at your query, though, of course all those questions are something that go through your mind, but they have different levels of strength depending on the person and the situation. I mean, face it, you as a provider are more than likely simply going to have a greater base number of partners to compare to than any given punter, and we know that. So, yeah, there's always kind of the "measure up" issue floating around. A fair portion of male braggadacio is always a cover for insecurity -- and that degree of insecurity is almost always there below the surface when you're with someone new, whether in a pay-for-play situation or not. And as someone in their forties I'm obviously aware that I don't represent the general sexual ideal for a twenty-something-year-old, given that I'm more likely to present a picture of her father.
The difference is that for guys, unlike women, such thoughts can head straight down to the equipment and get in the way of things operating properly, so we do our best not to dwell on them lest we become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The guy that's annoying you by staring only at your tits and ass as opposed to your face may well be doing so to not only inflate his ego but the rest of him, and he looks there rather than imagine he sees disappointment in your eyes.
So, ok, me -- I don't worry about the hair because I shaved it all off years and years ago absolutely as soon as I noticed there was a small amount of follicle migration, and have frankly no idea how much of it might be left if I were to regrow it (probably not much, so I don't feel the need to find out); I don't worry about the weight because while there's a little bit too much of it I'm not ridiculously out of proportion for my age, plus I'm tall and reasonably broad-shouldered and large-framed so it tends to get hidden more than with some other folks. No point in worrying about the fact that my cock doesn't reach to the moon, because I'm trying to bed someone on this planet and by now I've gotten used to working with what I have. Honestly, I tend to just try to keep all that noise out of my head entirely and focus on my partner in the equation and the experience at hand. I've had plenty of "bad sex" that comes either from me or the provider, and I've survived it, so I know that if this experience is destined to be another example of that, well, we'll both live through it again. If I'm going to be insecure about things -- and like anyone else, there naturally are plenty of times when I am -- I try to keep that for after the session, when I'm away on my own, where there's ample opportunity to beat myself up endlessly and creatively without the ticking of the session clock.
In my case you're certainly correct that the choice is more often one of personality than looks -- as has been noted on this board frequently, being with the most gorgeous person available can often mean a poor session. I'd much rather be with someone who gives the feeling that they're happy to have me there, and eager to participate.
Member #1465
04-25-03, 15:08
RN thanks for the welcome.
Regarding your comment of fear of not measuring up. That has so far not been anything I've been thinking about. I of course understand that she has had more other men then I have had girls so for that reason I understand that I am maybe compared and its no way in hell I would be superior in any aspects to the ones she have had before. But thats not why I'm there either. I have nothing to proove. I just want to have a good time and my way of thinking is that if I'm nice to the girl then there is a chance that I will get a better time. And as said in a previous post its more then the sex for me its rather perfect if I get a bit of the GFE feeling and I do get that rather often. Maybe its as you and Paddy said. Many "younger" girls like the grey hair.
Regarding the sex as I'm a bit older I know what is good sex for me and its not 47 different ways its just a couple of different ways and those ways are the ways I aim for. But most of all its the time leading up to that is what I appreciate afterwords.
Rubber Nursey
04-25-03, 17:06
Paddy,
"I assume that you were speaking "metaphorically" of course"
Who's talking metaphorically? I'm talking about last weekend!! (LOL Not really...just toying with you).
"She said that having a gut is an instant turn-off to women and will negate almost all of a guys other qualities. Is this also true of women from Oz???"
Hmmm. To me, it's not about weight - it's about attitude. An overweight man who behaves like a slob and has his beer belly visibly hanging over the front of his pants (and his crack showing at the back!) - now THAT'S a turn off. But an overweight man who carries himself well, dresses nicely and has a smile on his face...he can be just as cute as can be. There is a comedian on TV here called Mikey Robbins, whose laughter is contagious, and whose smile is as big as his (rather ample) belly. I think he's sexy as hell. *grin* It's all about who he is, not what he looks like.
As for being grey - don't change a thing! Many women love a "distinguished" gentlemen. The other thing about age is that I think as we get older, we tend to begin to wear our lives on our faces. (I know I'M starting to! LOL) Laugh lines, frown lines, etc, can tell you a lot about a person. An older man with laugh lines doesn't have to try and convince us that he's nice or kind or honest - we can see it on his face. Notice that most people don't describe young men as having a "kind face"? I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the reasons why women are beginning to approach you now, more than they did in your youth.
Rubber Nursey
04-25-03, 18:25
hmmm an age/sexual requests/generosity breakdown. that sounds like fun, actually. :) just please realise that this is going to be a very 'stereotypical' summary, and there are always going to be people who break the rules, or who don't fit the mould. (i don't want to be upsetting anyone). please also remember that it's the middle of the night here, and my sleep deprived brain has to go all the way back to the 'good old days' to retrieve the information. lol
the first qualifier i guess, is that i went out of my way to avoid younger clients - so the majority of my clients were at least 30 years old. also, tips are not customary in australia, and my prices for services were fixed, not negotiated (with regard to client generosity).
anyway, i would say that the majority of my clients would have been in the 35 to 45 age bracket...closely followed by 45 to 60. after that would be 25 to 35 and lastly, over 60. i had very few clients under the age of 25, but that's probably because a) i avoided them, and b) i mostly worked days, and young guys tend to indulge at night.
men in the 35 - 45 age bracket: many were married, but they were most often separated or recently divorced. for a lot of them in this age-group, their wives/ex-wives were either their first loves, or their only loves. believe it or not, they were often rather sexually inexperienced! most of them wanted affection and intimacy and conversation - things they had lost in their marriages or missed now that they were divorced. they often used me as a "stepping stone" back into the dating scene. sex was pretty important, although not very adventurous.
those who were never married were different. these guys had just got into the 'sexual experimentation' stage of their life, and wanted to do it left, right and sideways. (many of them were what we call "brothel rats" - their whole sex life revolves around the brothels, and they visit every parlour with monotonous regularity). unmarried men in this age-group were probably the most likely to ask for sex in a gazillion positions. they were usually white collar workers (or miners and oil riggers). they had enough expendable income to spare, but unfortunately, were usually pretty tight with it. however they were likely to become regulars, so ultimately, they probably spent a lot.
men in the 45 - 60 age bracket: i'd say more of these guys were married - usually unhappily. many seemed to be with their wives out of habit, or because there was still a deep love there, but no sex. most were small business owners, self-funded retirees, or in management positions. they didn't haggle with the price, and quite often gave tips. these guys were usually looking for more than sex - more like an affair without the strings attached. they wanted friendship and conversation. they were also more interested in making me happy, than themselves (and they had refined their oral skills enough to do so!!) the sex itself was usually "romantic" and intimate. these guys almost always liked to find a regular girl, and stick with her. i have to admit - this age-group was probably my favourite.
men over 60 - a lot of these guys were pensioners, so they had very little cash to spare. they came in infrequently because of it. however, if they liked you, they would keep coming back to only you. those who were still working or retired, were often quite wealthy. strangely enough though, the wealthy men over 60 are probably the tightest of the lot! they haggle for discounts, and/or pay the lowest prices and still want the works. they rarely tip. i guess they are just thinking about their retirement, though.
clients over 60 have often lost wives to age or illness, and usually want a true gfe. sex is almost irrelevant to many of them - some aren't even interested in intercourse at all. it's all about intimacy, conversation, touch and having female company. sex...if it happens...is just a bonus. men in this age-group are more likely to have erectile dysfunctions, too. they appreciate compassion and patience, and usually go for more mature sex workers. (which of course is anyone over 25 in this business! lol)
under 25: well, what can i say. often drunk or on speed - usually feel they are god's gift to women - no hooker is good enough to stick his prized dick into, but if it's gonna happen, it's gonna be with the youngest, prettiest one there - fucks you like you are just a well-oiled hole in the wall. (and depending on the amount of drugs and alcohol consumed - cums after 3 pumps, and then blames you for it, or can't cum at all because he's taken too much speed and still blames you for it). these guys throw you around the room like he's some sort of porn star, however in reality, their bedroom technique is usually severely lacking. they have no interest in getting you off (not that they have to of course), and you have to do exactly what they tell you, or they complain to the madam. they haggle for a discount, pay the lowest price they can get, and then act like they bought you, body and soul. i can't stand them!
i should say though, that this age group does include the odd virgin - they are obviously the complete opposite to everything i've said here, and are usually too scared to look at you, let alone be rude or condescending. seeing virgins is a really nice, tender experience - but it can also be a little unnerving.
i've raved on forever again. i do hope i haven't offended anyone with any of my comments. :)
James D 2004
04-25-03, 19:58
Regarding what I said in the BKK board about young girls sold to brothels in Thailand. I watched PBS channel this week about Thailand. My statement is still very true. But you may not see much in BKK on the surface.
First is the Burmese. They are happy anyone to take their daughters away when they are old enough, often free, to work in Thailand. Better then abused by the military in their own country. Then the hill tribes, who don't have Thai ID's. The chance that girls got sold to brothels is 1 in 10, could be as young as 10.
Many Chinese, among other foreigners, come to Thai, in the 3 country border areas, for the brothels. Deflowering is provided. Almost all girls are from Burma (old name).
The fully grown hot woman you see now could be the young little girl who came out to work some 10 years ago supporting their whole family.
I'm not really talking about morality here. I'm just explaining myself that whenever I had a good time and left. I can't help feeling sorry about the girls, who are preparing for the long haul in BKK.
Do you believe everything you see on TV?
James D 2004
04-25-03, 20:10
Originally posted by Dickhead
Do you believe everything you see on TV?
No, but PBS is a non-profit channel. That's a documentary. The content includes Thai social workers and politicians doing their jobs. Interview including Burma foreign minister (something like that), defending his country, which is black listed by USA for [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908). Except for Americans, who are well known for their foreign affairs ability, most people in the world knows how bad things are in countries like Burma. The documentary gives you the details.
And thanks, RN, for the breakdown. Very interesting and insightful, as always. What are the characteristics of the 25-35 bracket?
So you believe everything you see on TV documentaries. Great. And, most people don't know jack shit about Burma, which by the way hasn't been called Burma for many, many years (which sort of proves my point).
what i said in the bkk section was to your comment about women sold was this, "there's just not all that much of that in thailand and hasn't been for quite some time, and in any event most of the women we farangs are going to end up meeting in los are not brothel girls." i most definitely stand by that. yes, there is still trafficking going on, yes the burmese and hill tribes are involved (though both also have women who choose freely to be involved) but in thailand it is dramatically reduced from the levels it used to be, certainly far, far less than you'll find in, say, cambodia or india, and the thai authorities have been taking active steps to reduce it further in most instances. those efforts are complicated by the fact that there's tons of corruption in the governement and police, but it's still made a difference. the un, who have looked at this issue in the past couple of years, say that in contrast to former levels where perhaps ten percent of women who were recruited into prostitution were sold into it, it's now well under one percent.
i've posted elsewhere about the forced-service brothels i know of in chiang mai, which are chiefly staffed by indentured burmese women, and the difficult politics of shutting those down. there is an entire sex scene in thailand that is exclusively aimed at thai men, and westerners generally will not at all come in contact with it. (in fact, that scene provides the leading cause of aids infections in thailand -- which is thai wives being infected by husbands who frequent them.) this isn't about denial, it's about conveying an accurate picture and understanding of the context and reality of the situation, and simply watching a pbs program's not going to do that -- especially (since i presume you're referring to "sacrifice," the pov program by helen bruno) something that premiered five years ago and was completed before that. ever hear of reruns? guess what -- lucy's dead, too.
your statements are like saying that aids is rampant in thailand -- that's based on old information.
the truth is that women going into the sex trade in thailand is a very complex scenario which combines family and social pressures as well as the allure of materialism and the big city. there's an interesting book by penny van esterik (which i read the last time i was in thailand) called "materializing thailand" that discusses the role gender plays in constructing the thai identity, how important appearances are in the culture, and the lengths people go to maintain them. humans also make the decision to traffic themselves, and that's the majority of what goes on in thailand -- there's innate family pressure on the youngest female child of age to take care of the family, and the sex trade is one of the places that happens. while some of that ends up being ****, there's less of it than there used to be, as there's less of the forced nature.
there are reports that the japanese mafia uses thailand as a hub for trafficking women, but those women both come to and are diverted to other countries, generally north. thailand is used because there are established conduits for migrant workers, with those workers usually coming from burma and laos.
and, btw, there's child prostitution in the us, as well, you know.
(Point taken on Burma, DH, though many continue to use it rather than recognize the legitimacy of the Myanmar junta, who are the ones to have changed the name.)
Most of the women in Myanmar/Burma are just looking for a Mandalay anyway :)
Interestingly, my Mapquest wall map (copyright 1999) calls it Myanmar and then has Burma in parentheses, while my Replogle globe of the same approximate vintage calls it Burma and has Myanmar in parentheses.
Well, I think it was the British who first called it Burma, with Myanmar being the historical (and internal) name, but I'd have to look it up to be sure. All I know is that people from there call it both -- I had regular conversations about the country with a group of Akha women who helped staff one my favorite traditional massage parlors in Chiang Mai, and they all went back and forth on the name, despite half of them being born there. Also helped me learn a great deal about the situation of non-nationals in Thailand, among other things.
James D 2004
04-25-03, 22:39
I've been trying to do some profiling but didn't find suitable audience. Profiling by age is generalization, unless for a narrower social and geographic group. On the other hand, for prolific members like Dickhead, a profile is easy.
He has time at hand. Therefore his job is not very challenging at the time. By his choice of words, I would put him in the 25 to 30 category. However, since he appeared to be pissed-off by many things, he could be a lot older. That stopped him from being more mellowed.
Born here or not, he seemed to have the very common american attitude. "most people don't know jack shit about Burma" proves the point. Either he is right (but not outside of america). Even if he's wrong, at least he himself don't know shit about Burma. His one-liners show that his is incapable of intellectual debate, or that his is trying to hide his shortcomings. I was careful to point out that Burma is the old name and his is still trying to score point on that. I use that name because I learned that in high school. That name is easy to spell. I have some time at hand but I should do more proper work, I don't look up every reference I can before I give out my opinions.
He is single. On a sliding scale, he is using prostitutes to get off regularly, more than paying for quality dates that he otherwise cannot get for free.
Don't be offended. You won't be surprised that many members share the same profile.
PurpleNGold
04-25-03, 22:50
Originally posted by RN
Coat me in chocolate sauce and throw me to the lesbians, I'm queer as fuck. Everyone happy now?? ;)
Is this something lesbians are particularly fond of? ;)
I just wondered if deep down, beneath the "I'm paying for sex, what does it matter" attitude, there was ever maybe a feeling of self consciousness or fear of not measuring up. As a working girl I often felt it - but then, we are more "on show" than clients are, and are often picked solely on our looks. And if you know that the last person your client saw was a total babe, you can't help but wonder what he's thinking about you in comparison. I thought that perhaps the same things went through YOUR minds...am I as well-hung/good-looking/talented in bed/young/etc as the last guy she saw. I guess that depends on what you are looking for in the booking though - as Oskar said, it would probably be different depending on whether you wanted an all weekend GFE, or a quick bang against a wall.
Sorry that I haven't had the time to participate in this discussion properly, an odd non-pay-for-play relationship is taking up the free time. But, I'll throw my $.02 into the mix as I have opportunity.
As for being self conscious about the way I look when I'm with a sex worker, not at all. I know I'm not with her for any reason other than my money. And, so I just don't give my looks a thought. About the only thing I would worry about was if I looked so horrid that I didn't get a good session. I suppose that could happen if I were the elephant man, but I'm positive I don't look that bad. I do worry about my breath, body odor and such that could cause her to feel uncomfortable to be close. That could spoil the session.
As for judging the girl for her appearance vs. personality, I definitely will not choose a girl that I find unattractive regardless whether she's got a good personality. I will choose a girl that I find less attractive than another if personality is an obvious benefit. When I was with my TG, I often saw girls that were more my type physically, but, apart from a momentary thought of "how could I slip away," I never seriously thought of ditching her because she was so much fun to be with.
James D 2004
04-25-03, 22:55
Joe
Don't know if the documentary is 5 years old or not. But believe me things can only get worse because of the Asian financial crisis several years ago. From another angle, dictatorship and corruption are very hard to get rid of. Again things can only get worse. 5 years is a very short time to get anything done. Success story is few, Iraqi is one. HK is another where they set up a totally independent anti-corruption department, all people are on contract with no hope of any govt and company employing them after their contract ends. All have the right to go to UK so they don't need to stay and face the music if their department failed. They have to fight corruption even after the Chinese took over because otherwise their department have to close anyway. China is another. Corruption is so big that too much money is lost from the country. They use the death penalty to scare big offenders.
Joe you sounded like a retired person or early retired person living alone. But I don't want to start another profile. That's all for today.
Originally posted by tallnhandsome
Regarding what I said in the BKK board about young girls sold to brothels in Thailand. I watched PBS channel this week about Thailand. My statement is still very true. But you may not see much in BKK on the surface.
First is the Burmese. They are happy anyone to take their daughters away when they are old enough, often free, to work in Thailand. Better then abused by the military in their own country. Then the hill tribes, who don't have Thai ID's. The chance that girls got sold to brothels is 1 in 10, could be as young as 10.
Many Chinese, among other foreigners, come to Thai, in the 3 country border areas, for the brothels. Deflowering is provided. Almost all girls are from Burma (old name).
The fully grown hot woman you see now could be the young little girl who came out to work some 10 years ago supporting their whole family.
I'm not really talking about morality here. I'm just explaining myself that whenever I had a good time and left. I can't help feeling sorry about the girls, who are preparing for the long haul in BKK.
So where do you point out that Burma is the old name? Hint: you don't.
Edited to add that I must be blind because he does point it out in {brackets}. Ooops. Sorry.
James D 2004
04-25-03, 23:03
Dickhead, can you SEE the bracket in your quote?
Burma (old name)
Used to it since even maps do that in case that people don't recognize the name.
PurpleNGold
04-25-03, 23:06
For those of you thinking about attempting to engage in a conversation with Tall and Handsome, realize that there's no point. If you take notice of his other posts, you will see that, even when he's been shown to be completely off base, he's ended conversations with things like 'I'm obviously right, and since no one can diffute me..."
Also, if you look back at some of the older (couple months ago) stuff on the LA board, the question was raised about him being possible LE when he started offering payment for info. Given his complete lack of knowledge on reality, this may be a valid assumption. I'd say, that his postings concerning Thailand are similar to what's happening on the Pnom Pen thread: just an attempt to dissuade people from partaking.
The 'profiling,' though laughable in it's simplistic ignorance, is just another pointer to his being LE and just trying to gain some false credibility.
Anyway, as I was recently reminded on the LA board regarding this fool, "Don't feed the trolls."
Originally posted by tallnhandsome
Dickhead, can you SEE the bracket in your quote?
Burma (old name)
Used to it since even maps do that in case that people don't recognize the name.
Ha ha. Sorry, I read right over that. Must be the intellectual impairment you spoke of. I stand corrected.
James D 2004
04-25-03, 23:36
P&G
My dear fellow member, I can't resist to do a quick profile for you. You sound young. One possibility is that you are earning your way through college. So you have limited spare money to spend in LA, with trips to TJ and BKK etc, and limited to those destinations. Along the line you may be graduated and have a job that paid along the lines as an English major.
Young is a state of mind. You actively seek keyboard fights for example in TJ, LA and god knows how many others. Student or not you have plenty of time. You even drop by to forums where you've never been to the place, say hello and make comments. One occupation I can thing of is a dead end system admin, looking after the computers when nothing ever happened, or someone asked you to give him back his file on his local disk when he reformatted the whole thing. Or perhaps a federal job?
For your sex life, you are never popular with girls, at least the sort of girls you fancy. The free dates you get are limited to getting off from each other. For the other times you go to LA for a quickie, TJ for weekends, and far east for vacation.
Again no offense, how many members do not have that profile in some part of their life sometimes?
Hah, well, TNH, it's good to see that your profiling is pretty much as accurate as everything else you post, both in the case of DH and myself. (I'm fairly sure that's also true in the case of P&G based on what he's posted.) And as usual, you're so far off it's laughable.
This is not to mention your clear ignorance of the financial realities and situation in Thailand, which has had a very successful recovery from the Asian crisis (which is, again, a number of years ago) and, since the election of Thaksin in 2001, a higher level of GDP growth than the US. You are also clearly ignorant both about the kinds of corruption found in Thailand and the reactions of the Thais to it. Spend a few months reading Thai papers and talking to people in the country, why don't you, before you make such pronouncements?
As far as reaction to your profiling, well, it's pretty much impossible to be offended by an idiot who thinks he's a genius, (the worst one gets is annoyed or fatigued) so I will simply note that all this stuff is waaaaay off the topic of this thread.
P&G -- I know plenty of people in Law Enforcement, having grown up the son of a cop, and they're not all bozos like this. Few would be so inept.
James D 2004
04-26-03, 00:38
joe
It's clear that my posts are based on facts and then my personal opinion, who's isn't? If you twisted that up, nobody can help you. The Asian financial crisis is the fact that I know. Since nobody is doing well (except China) in the region, your "recovery" is a point of view only. Those countries stabilizes but growth rate and general state of economy is far from that before the crisis. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan are all in the dogs with USA follows (look at DOW!) You can guest how bad the tourist industry has been.
What are you complaining about my profiling? I only said that you sound like a retired person or early retired person. Now I doubt that. You consistently try to throw people out by digging out facts, which shows that you doesn't process the knowledge and maturity that comes with age. See what you dug up? You named the current prime minister or president. Who cares. Thai GDP is better than USA. So what? Even in the best of times, the asian tigers are growing faster than the developed world. Europe always have a higher unemployment rate than the far east. Read Thai newspapers? Are you Thai?
Anyway, just happened this time I was prepared before I posted the last one. In the PBS website, if you find the articles about AIDS in Thailand, you can see that AIDS is still a big problem there, as opposed to what you said below. They are doing well to control it before the crisis, but running short of money to keep the programs going. That is a 2002 article.
You claim that you are old. And you seemed to have the most time at hand. That's what I based on to guess that you are somewhat retired. If not, then you could be something like a system admin, or a dead end federal job at you prime age 35-55. I still haven't attempted to do a profile for you yet.
Again, I'll repeat that this is all off topic here, and this will be my last post on the subject -- I'm not here to debate your personal attributes or mine or or anyone else's; it's not the purpose of this board or this section, and I'll note that this particular section had a very good on-topic discussion going on before your ego ballooned in and hijacked it. I look forward to us getting back to it.
There are facts and there are facts, and it's far from clear that your posts are based on them. Using old facts and information and making big statements using them isn't saying much at all. Opinions, yes, I definitely see those in what you post. Experience? In-depth knowledge? Sorry, that I don't see. The best arguments come from a combination of all these, with facts and experience informing opinion.
I could care less about you doing a profile on me, since you very clearly don't know much about anything, and your perceptions of what is "true" are even less sharp. Anyone who argues as you astonishingly just did that actually injecting accurate information into an argument shows an inability to process maturely is truly too big a buffoon for words. I've never "claimed I was old" and in fact have posted my age range very specifically, which shows how poorly you read and process information. As I recall, you can't manage to properly see what's on a website you check out in any event -- did you ever go back and see the word "feet" on the site where you claimed it didn't exist? Did you check out the photos you asked me to point you toward demonstrating Ayurvedic massage using the feet?
Perhaps, while you're at it, you should look up a definition for the word "rampant" which is the precise word I used in saying it was inaccurate for describing AIDS in Thailand -- I never said it wasn't a problem, as of course it is not only there but most places, particularly in Asia. And in fact, the transmission process I described in an earlier reply (Thai wives getting it from husbands who were infected several years ago) came from the World Health Organization's December 2002 report, which called for new programs and an expansion of existing ones. As it happens, I was given a pre-release version of that report by an AIDS worker I had dinner with a number of times while I was in northern Thailand. (He works with monks and monasteries there on how to educate their "flocks.") Tell me, how long have you personally been involved in AIDS information? I've been at it for over eighteen years, some in professional aspects, some not. Oh, that's right, you watch PBS -- guess that kind of works like the Holiday Inn Express commercials where someone is able to do brain surgery because they were smart enough to stay there.
I happen to like to read widely about some of the many things in which I have interest, such as Thailand and health, and do so in many, many other contexts than simply matching wits with people on this board. You truly flatter yourself overmuch if you think it's in reaction to you, though any half-way competent person can do net research and read up fairly quickly on any subject they please fairly simply. (This doesn't mean they can necessarily figure out what's important or pertinent.)
And, no, I'm not Thai, but unlike you I've spent more than an overnight at the airport in Thailand, and have travelled around the country a fair bit and, yes, I do read Thai newspapers on a very regular basis, along with some from India, Trinidad, Kenya, and other places I've visited and like to keep up with. I have also spent time studying with a Thai tutor (and can speak Thai to some small extent) and reading Thai history and literature so I understand at the very least more than the basics of the language and culture. I don't just need to watch TV and check out the PBS website -- I can manage to actually make it through a book, though magazines and papers, as well as do my own research both in libraries and on the net. I also, gasp, have the experience of actually being in a place, talking to people, and using my eyes.
I'll let Dickhead respond to you about how far off your profiling on him happens to be. Your perceptions of me (living alone, and, hmm, a second whack at federal jobs or sysadmins, for both me and PNG - tell me, Dr. Freud, where's his hostility coming from?) are beyond laughable. All this says far more about you than us.
And now you're definitely back to being boring again, and are not nearly so interesting to contemplate as RN and chocolate in any event. Click! Channel changed.
James D 2004
04-26-03, 02:37
Joe
I think profile of members using prostitutes are not too far topic. Since you are interested in it also.
Since you are one of those using the 'todays active topic' function of the forum, the worst that I can thing of is that you have no job. The best I can think of is jobs like system admin or federal job that isn't challenging all the time but with stable salary. So you have plenty of time at hand. Get the point?
If you are not that old as you claimed, I would have guessed you are a student. And before your last post, I would guessed that you are a University of Mich, Ann Arbor student from Thailand. But since you claim that you are not Thai, but can speak Thai, that throws me off. You would not be that interested in Buddhism. Another reason is that you are crazy about Thai girls when you were young, and started the Thai language thing. For a non-Thai to study Thai, that's beyond my ability to give you a good reason.
It sounds strange, but one can thing of that you major in Thai studies and back pack all over Thailand. You are very much unlike P&G and DH that are based in LA and travels to many places where cheaper pussies are.
If you are a student it explains that you can live off cheaply all over Thailand, being single and all that. So you don't need much salary. You may be even based in Thailand now, with only memories of a short stay in Ann Arbor.
English doesn't seem to be your mother tongue, and that's why you take the time and are proud of writing proper English, even in WSG! But don't you know how much English majors are being paid?
You are sort of different and doesn't fit in that much in your social life. You try to find soul-mates in the net.
Your upbringing or you learned to be careful not to make mistakes - as reflected in your grammars and emphasis of facts. That is old style and often doesn't give you competitive edge. My advice is to learn to take reasonable risk. And there are machines that enable you to make thousands of mistakes per sec. Make them all in an hour and you won't make them ever again.
You are those sort of students who don't know what to do given an open book test! The facts are all there but you don't know what to do with that.
I will not feed the trolls.
I will not feed the trolls.
I will not feed the trolls.
But Joe, will you please work on your writing skills, you illiterate son of a gun, you? Where did you learn English, anyway? And, I will try to overcome my intellectual shortcomings here in Los Angeles, despite all the snow we're having here.
Rubber Nursey
04-26-03, 06:12
Ohhhh this is just too much fun! I laughed my ass off through this whole section this morning. I had no idea so many of you were losers with dead-end pencil-pushing jobs! And you Joe - you rascal - trying to tempt me with all that older man crap. And all the while you were just some pimply student, playing games with me because you have no social life of your own. Shame on you!
I guess I'll shut up now, before I get an unflattering profile of my own done.
Sorry Joe - seems I completely missed the 25 - 35 age group. Hmmm they are a hard one to sum up. Sometimes those guys were a little difficult for me, too, because that is really my "dating" age group. Sometimes the bookings felt a little more "real" than they probably should, and sometimes there were a little too many common interests or too much chemistry. That can go either way - it can make a booking incredibly passionate and heaps of fun, or it can make it very uncomfortable for both parties because the boundaries aren't quite as clear.
Money - well, many were single and had worked long enough to be relatively well-off. Most were miners or offshore oil riggers or country guys in town for a weekend of debauchery. Those from the city were mostly blue or white collar workers. This age group is more likely to book you for 4 hours, sit in the spa and drink wine, tip quite well, then never return. Sex - they are likely to want sex every which way they can...changing positions every two seconds and cumming at least twice. They are old enough to have mastered the art of prolonged erection/orgasm, and young enough to not have any major penile dysfunctions, so these are the guys that will want 45 minutes of actual intercourse out of every hour. City guys this age are more likely to go for looks over personality, whereas country guys or miners (who don't see women often) want a "real" woman that they can have a laugh and a conversation with. Guys this age rarely become regulars.
Now...back to me and the chocolate coated lesbians.... heh heh ;)
Rubber Nursey
04-26-03, 06:25
And congrats to PNG on the relationship thing. :) Not having time to talk about paying for sex because you're spending too much time having FREE sex, is certainly not something that you need to apologise for, honey! *grin*
Vell ms RN I am knew two this bored but I profile you as a stuck up wealthy European businesswoman who hass no social life and spends most of her time hanging around in elite coffee shops. You are probably in your 50s or 60s and have a boring unsatisfying government job. You probably learned to speak your ridiculously poor English in Latvia, Lithuania, or Estonia. But strangely you spend a lot of time backpacking through The Seychelles in a futile attempt to master the French language. You are a Libra. You are married for the third time but have a boring and unsatisfying sex life due to a local shortage of chocolate sauce. You aar careful about you grammar because you are insecure about your height. It is evdent from your rwiting that you ar very short and are probably Oreiental.
Rubber Nursey
04-26-03, 06:44
Oh my God, Dr Dick. That was uncanny...
Voulez-vous couchez avec moi c'est soir?
PS RN I notice you are now capitalizing "God." Does that mean christ has actually risen this past easter or do we need to pile more rocks in front of the cave?
Rubber Nursey
04-26-03, 07:08
Well, as you know, English is not my first language and as such, I do try very hard to write like farang does. Puritan white Americans use a big G for the word god...so out of respect, I do so too. For the same reasons, you will note that the word "Dick" is also capitalised, to signify it's great importance...another firm belief of the white American male.
And yes - I would love to sleep with you tonight. Me love you looooong time, big boy.
ROTFLOL! DH, I promise not too feed him any more -- I've just been having too much fun, and I promise to stop. (Now I have to do a little extra work tomorrow, as I've gotta confess, I've been avoiding finishing something just because I've spent much of the day laughing... why couldn't I have been blessed with someone like this being around when I was a teenager and really needed it?)
Ah, the wonders of the internet -- if only I could lose other things as easily as I've apparently lost years, education, any sense of self, nationality, social structure, my stupid high-risk nature, etc. TNH reminds me of a guy I used to give 500-to-1 odds to when playing chess for money until I simply felt too bad for ripping him off. He is definitely beyond hilarious. DH, while you're visiting LA, would you please pick me up a porn star or two? It's been a while since I've had one. Hope this request doesn't overly tax that non-intellectual brain of yours...
Trabajaré en mi inglés.
Ich arbeite auf meinem Englisch.
Je travaillerai à mon anglais.
Eu trabalharei em meu inglês.
And RN, you 300lb Ohio trucker you, don't you start with me...
But, hmm, your comments on the 25-35 age group are extremely interesting. I find the whole "dating group" thing intriguing, since essentially you're saying it was easier to imagine yourself seeing these guys in the "real world" and thus it intruded more into your process. (Interesting that this is the group you forgot! :o) This implies that there are times when the sex worker barrier is far more permeable. It's also quite remarkable to read your description of these guys versus those on the next rung of the age level, which sort of says when these guys get near 35 they disappear and are replaced by brothel freaks :)
Does this say that sex workers who come in contact with clients in their dating range have a different reaction? If so, is there any fallout from this i.e. are sex workers more likely to get involved/lose perspective with that kind of guy? Is this you, or is this a general thing, in your opinion? Or has this whole recent thread simply knocked you off-kilter from too much amusement?
And it's hansum man, not big boy, you wannabe Thai tart, and you know I'm not looking for short time!
James D 2004
04-26-03, 08:21
Lavorerò al mio inglese
I left item one out for joe. Now he seemed to know at least 5 languages. In that case I got myself down for 6, that's italian. Get real, you student.
Rubber Nursey
04-26-03, 08:27
"Hansum man". Ok, got it. Merci. A thousand blessings to you and all your wives, bella.
Oh dear...I seem to be having a bit of an ethnicity crisis...
Rubber Nursey
04-26-03, 08:37
Oh, and just for your edification (and so you can add Australian to your list of languages learned), I think the correct translation would be...
"I'ze gonna 'ave ta learn meself sum betta In-ger-lish"
James D 2004
04-26-03, 16:53
RN (is that for registered nurse? I like to do real RN's back in England, they take money to supplement their income),
You may not have thought of it, but you would wonder why you never did. Language have evolved in Feudalism times to make sure peasants stand out from the nobles. All the rules and exceptions make sure that you have to start education early and spend your whole life around it, which commoners can't afford. Even if you over throw the king and become one, you just don't look like one and won't be accepted by the rest of the world. You send your daughter to marry some prince but no one wants it. It's a way to ensure the blue bloodline continues.
This is very much against the American spirit. I have no problem with anyone's attitude about any form of English. The only advantage is that it's simple (some say primitive) enough. It would be a nightmare to write a scientific paper in French or Latin. Is the chair your siting on a male or female? Don't make me laugh.
James D 2004
04-26-03, 17:32
Joe, now you stopped writing something you don't know about, like a pre-school level understanding of GDP. Good for you and don't try to hide behind something else.
i said i wouldn't feed the troll, and i won't, though it's damned tempting with these imbecilic pronouncements about english from a person whose postings are rife with second-grade errors. sigh.
rn, there's an interesting book online i imagine you're familiar with called "working girls" by roberta perkins at the australian institute of criminology's site (http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/) that i've been working my way though at odd times. it's more than a decade old, but it's generally not something that's dated. the bibliography in and of itself is one of the more absolutely wonderful and complete i've seen. one thing i found pertinent to the discussion we've been having here regarding clients was a description of a book by martha stein called "lovers, friends, slaves ...: the nine male sexual types, their psycho-sexual transactions with call girls." (no real excerpts from that book i've been able to track down online other than what's here.) based on interviews with sex workers, stein breaks clients down into nine different "types" as follows:
the opportunists: treat prostitutes purely as sexual repositories, establish no relationship with any of the women, and have minimal contact with them.
the fraternisers: visit prostitutes in pairs or groups. their visits are mainly male social affairs involving women only as peripheral companions.
the promoters: seek personal satisfaction and peer prestige by encouraging other men to visit prostitutes they know. in return they expect emotional support from the women and a kind of non-sexual relationship with them.
the adventurers: are mostly young men seeking sexual experimentation. they require a kind of therapeutic relationship with the women during their sexual explorations.
the lovers: seek romantic attachments with prostitutes. they are usually older men who wish to rescue the women from a life of crime and corruption.
the friends: are usually married, middle-aged and seek to have prostitutes as companions or second wives supplying sex on demand.
the guardians: are usually the oldest "type". they see themselves as protectors of young prostitutes, perceived as "child-women".
the juveniles: can be of any age but usually single. they prefer older prostitutes for the opposite reason to the "guardians" seeking the younger ones. they want mother-figures.
the slaves: wish to be dominated by prostitutes and seek humiliation in order to express homosexual, infantile, transvestite or exhibitionist fantasies.
would this match up with your sense of things? -- in many ways it seems to from what you've posted so far. (and for what it's worth, i'd probably would place myself squarely in the "friends" category, though i imagine like most guys i overlap into other areas as well.)
and to take it further -- what categories would you use to describe sex workers themselves?
James D 2004
04-26-03, 20:25
joe, you equate english, as most native speakers know of, to the level of education etc. even many germans speak perfect english, they don't assume that equation if that's not one's mother tongue. the japanese are so bad at english that they won't get their papers accepted by english journals so they have to start their own, and many americans have to hire translators in order to read them.
my style of english is a bit extreme when i choose to. in some parts of the world, we have to learn english speed reading at high school. there's indian guru's in everything, and when they get their hands on it, they are not happy if you cannot read a page at a glance and pick up the important details. i'm far from that but fast enough not to able to proof read my writings, as i already know what i tried to say. many english novelists are not helping, when for example, i saw one who didn't use punctuations for a few pages, no grammars, none, to reflect the brains inner workings. many have incomplete sentences and arguable sentence structures. my english teacher was a bit ahead of time when she stopped teaching grammars about the same time as the english schools stopped.
if you find my writings a bit unusual, think of capturing a brain storm with time sparing for a long lunch. i can generate some more normal english when i need to, but i get by very well without doing that very often.
joe, i must say that here you goes again. english has a lot less words than most other languages. true or not it's not the difficulty of the words you use that counts, it's how you use the words. "it's not the size that counts, but how you use your equipment". did you find my whatever pronouncement of english a bit original? in comparison, you just read a book, copy a list, and explain the list as in the book, and try to discuss it? you get 0 marks for an open book assignment.
i regret a little bit to get too much involved. anyway i didn't started it. rn is probably working in some bordello towns outside of cities like perth! that would be something like wichita in nebraska of usa (plus some oil rigs). rn, you seemed to find your match. ann arbor is somewhat like the outback where californians don't know a thing about. joe didn't spend more time in some us boards and rn didn't spend more time in some australia boards must have your reasons. now that i know what i'm getting into, i'm pulling out, unless i have to insert myself again.
one last thought, joe, your mention of english made me think of the independence war, when the english complains that the yankees fights with no rules, no formations, no discipline like a soldier, no brillant charges, no clever tactics, just get at you, and wear you down. if they started with one soldier more than you, they probably win with one body standing.
James D 2004
04-26-03, 20:52
Forget one important point. Many languages have no tense. I do and I did is a bit subtle to read. The other languages make do by I do yesterday and I do already. That said something about tense, it's rather redundant, not necessary at least. It's just bad coupling to software languages. Not only that, I find that you can read some languages much faster than the others. Joe, do you know that the royal Thai court has their special language not the same as ordinary Thai's? See my point below?
I will not feed the trolls.
I will not feed the trolls.
I will not feed the trolls.
But, sigh, c'mon -- one estimate of the number of words in the Engish language is over 800,000. That is so massively more than almost every other it's not funny. French, for example, has less than 100,000, and Thai (both common tongue and formal) less than 40,000. Another brilliant unsupportable statement, as usual. (And speaking French and writing in Latin was how English royalty excluded commoners, btw, not making English more obscure.) I'm not bothering to deconstruct the rest of your babble -- I'm not on this board to talk about your ravings, but the topic at hand, to which you have added nothing whatsoever.
You're withdrawing? Fabulous.
Wichita is in Kansas, not in Nebraska. Spanish has the greatest number of words of any language. Prostitution is perfectly moral. Let's get back on the subject and not let one or two jerk offs spoil our discussions. Tallandimpotent is probably Virgin Terry's long lost twin.
James D 2004
04-26-03, 23:38
English words - noted that I have added the phrase "true or not". That means that is not central to my arguments. If you pick on that, it means you want arguments on the sideline, hitting my wing deployments without ever hoping to defeat my army.
Depends on how you count as words. The reason for saying that is because English is rather primitive that most Europeans would agree (outside of England). In english there are three levels of beauty, or everything else for that matter, while in French there are much more levels of everything. So if you compare apple to apple, there are more French words.
In english, if you encounter something new, you have to make up a new word for it. While in many other languages, you use combinations of existing words. That is a bad thing that the number of english words are getting out of hand. If you count that way english has a lot more words, but that's like comparing the number of alphabets to the number of words, not at all fair.
Another important factor contributing to the number of english words is the technical scientific and medical words. Since the same terms are used in other languages, and that the terms are counted as english, the number of english words are naturally more. I can't and won't try to verify your facts. But if you just accept the number of words from some reference without critical thinking, you are missing the point.
Wichita and Nebraska are used in USA, in movies and advertisement, for some middle of nowhere places that most people don't know anything about, like Burma. That's my point and I don't apologize for mixing them up.
Dick . . .
English is far more robust and descriptive than Spanish. More words. Spanish has more only if you count all the conjugations of each verb . . . since each verb has at least 40 different forms while English usually has 3 or 4. Big difference.
Not that this has anything to do with the rapidly deteriorating discussion here. . .
Don't feed the trolls . . . It's pointless . . .
James D 2004
04-27-03, 05:24
Prokofiev, thanks for the facts that support me. Actually Latin and most of it's derivative are like this. But your conclusion about english is amusing to me.
This guy's just an annoying jerk-off. Can we simply ignore him and get back on topic?
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 07:10
"Now that I know what I'm getting into, I'm pulling out, unless I have to insert myself again."
Feel free to insert yourself any time you like - but if you do, don't be surprised if I suddenly feel compelled to insert a size 8 boot into one of your orifices.
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 07:12
Awwww Joe. How can you say that?? He's just so freakin' intuitive! I mean - he pegged me, didn't he? Working in a bordello outside of Perth...in the Outback...where the oil rigs are?? ;)
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 10:23
Ok, back to the topic at hand.
Joe,
I have a copy of Roberta Perkins' book. I admit I haven't actually sat down and read it through (I did try, but it's a bit much like trying to read a highschool text book), but I often flip through it for references or quotes for work. Re your comment: "It's more than a decade old, but it's generally not something that's dated." - I find that's the case with the majority of prostitution literature. What was relevant 200 years ago is still relevant now (largely because the laws haven't changed in that time!! LOL) Women still work for the same reasons, clients still visit for the same reasons. I would say probably the only real difference would be that the introduction of condoms had a significant impact on STI rates, (and perhaps that more women pay for sex these days).
As for Stein's client classifications, I'd probably agree with most of them. The "Promoters" one is something that I have never seen in the industry. However, it seems almost to describe pimps - which are certainly not part of our culture here. I think the only other one I would take issue with is the "Slaves" category. Not that it's incorrect - there are most certainly clients who want to be dominated for those same reasons - but she missed out probably the most common reason that I know of. The overwhelming majority of my clients who wanted to be dominated or humiliated, worked in high-power jobs or held positions of great authority. (The old stereotype of the judge being tied up and punished by his Mistress). These guys spent so much time making decisions and being the strong one in their real lives, that they wanted to lay back and let someone else take the reins for an hour. CEOs, etc...people in management who probably had to be callous to their underlings, in order to increase productivity...would often ask to be humiliated and belittled. I often wondered whether it was maybe their way of 'absolving' themselves for their behaviour at work.
As for sex worker categories - I'll go make a cuppa and have a think on it a bit. (I'm a little scared about what category *I* will fit into! LOL)
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 10:29
Actually, before I do that - what exactly do you want me to categorise? Do you mean describing the sex workers themselves, the reasons why they work, or the actual way that they go about doing their jobs?
Ummm, yes :D
I was simply thinking about an equivalent scale for sex workers, not so much an explanation of motivation (it's possible to provide several different ones for that) as of overall type, understanding that as with men they might move through categories over time or situation. Stein's list tends to focus on behavior, I think, more than motivation, though the latter is incorporated to explain aspects of the former.
What I meant by the not being dated aspect of Perkins' book was that because it spends more time looking at structures it wears well. It's the ones that take a look at very specific situations (usually accompanied by a social agenda) that tend to lose relevance as the specifics change. I agree it's rather like a text book, which can make for dry reading, but that's also one of the things that makes it useful, since it does a nice job sorting though some of the various studies that have been done by others and contextualizing them.
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 15:30
Hmmmm ...well I would say, overall, you really have two main groups of sex workers - let's call them wh*res and courtesans - which would then be subdivided into further categories. Of course I am only using the terms 'wh*re' and 'courtesan' in the stereotypical sense. (Oh, and I am only going to mention people who CHOOSE to work in the industry. Children, indentured workers, etc, are not included - that is a crime, and it's about time the bloody Government stopped counting it as 'prostitution' and started doing something to stop it!)
The courtesans would be the ones who see sex work as their 'calling'. They treat sex work with the same level of respect as they would any other career, and put the same level of hard work and enthusiasm into it. They care about their reputations and client satisfaction. They would enjoy being a part of the sex industry, and enjoy most aspects of their work (we ALL have parts of our jobs that annoy us!).
The wh*res would be the ones that see sex work as a means to an end. They choose to do it for the money, but probably don't really want to be there. Couldn't care less about client satisfaction, nor their reputation - usually because they don't believe they will be in the industry long enough to need to build either one.
There is a third group that doesn't really fit into either of those groups, but then again, they don't quite fit into the general definition of prostitution either. It's what we call "survival sex" or "sex for favours", which is usually practiced by homeless teenagers and/or young adults. That includes blowing a guy in exchange for him buying dinner, or going home with a guy and having sex with him just so you have somewhere to sleep. They seem to either become heavily dependent on the clients (falling in love, etc) or be really bitter and hate them for their 'false pity'. Those kids don't really identify themselves as prostitutes here - but their motivations and attitudes may be similar to sex workers in Third World countries, etc.
Now let's see...groups of workers. I'm probably going to give them terribly stupid names and use very unflattering stereotypes, because I am in a grumpy, lonely, nasty mood - and I wanna cheer myself up. But otherwise, the info should be as close to the truth as possible. :)
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 16:18
The career courtesans
These women are born hookers. They love the industry, they love the job, they love the sex (most of the time at least!) and they treat their business professionally. They strive to build a good reputation and regular client base. They are the ones who study sex techniques in books, train in massage, and read Business weekly and the sports pages and anything else that clients may want to discuss. They can 'become' any type of person that a client is looking for - and, more importantly, they can SENSE what the client is looking for, without him even having to ask. Largely older women (that's 'older' in industry years, of course) and, quite often, a little less attractive. Not ugly - just not your classic beauties with perfect bodies.
The professionals
These women are a lot like the ones above - except they don't put quite as much of a human touch into their work. These would be the ones with all the "don't touch me there", one cum only, etc, rules. They have a very specific professional routine, and follow it to the letter. They are not really willing to give too much of themselves to their clients. To use Dickhead's term - their service is "clinical". These women are usually more attractive than the women above, and younger.
The lost souls
These women are stuck in a Pretty Woman fantasy. They work in the same way that the career courtesans do, but they get a little too carried away with their roles. They fall for clients often - and always believe that clients are falling for them as well, because "he just treats me sooo nice". They throw tantrums and have crying fits on hearing that their regular client has visited someone else. They can be any age, but usually have broken homes, broken marriages, etc, behind them. Sometimes they have worked in the industry for way too long, and just need somebody to 'rescue' them and love them for who they are. From a client perspective, probably the most dangerous type of hooker alive! Luckily for you, they are not all that common.
The nymphos
They are in it for the sex. The true PSE, they talk dirty, dress dirty and fuck like freight trains. They don't care for conversation or friendship, and couldn't care less if they never see you again. UNluckily for you guys, they are also not all that common. ;)
The "I'm so freakin gorgeous you should have to pay to just LOOK at me" superstars
These bookings all go exactly the same way - beautiful half-naked girl walks into the room and flashes dazzling smile, client picks tongue up off the floor and follows her to the room like a puppy dog, client pays for an hour (which of course costs more than any other girl, because she's a top booker), client walks out 20 minutes later and heads straight to the office to complain about the half-assed service and the time shorting, beautiful girl saunters back into the room to bewitch the next unsuspecting client even before the last one has left. These women really shit me - not because of petty jealousy or anything, but because they are bad for business. They always get picked over the hard-working girls who give a good service, and then the client leaves unsatisfied, never to return, and tells all his mates to avoid that particular brothel as well.
The bad-girl wannabe
These pain in the ass kids come through allll the time. They are 18 or 19 years old, a few guys have told them they are hotties, and they think it would be "way cool" to be a hooker. They figure that they love sex and they love money, so prostitution's gotta be the best job in the world - or they are doing it to spite their parents. They also figure (by some bizarre teenage reasoning) that it will also be "way cool" to tell their friends that they are working in a brothel. The minute the first overweight, balding, middle-aged man walks into the lounge - these girls run out the door as fast as their little legs will carry them.
The sleepwalker
These girls are what the sensationalist media would call your "typical prostitute". They are only working to support their drug habit. They hate men, or at least hate having to sleep with men for money. They doze off in the girls' lounge, and then half wake up to do intros, with their hair standing up at right angles. Then they head back to the lounge, tripping on a loose floorboard in the process, and then fall straight back to sleep. They will do anything for money, and that's why the guys pick them. These women are not usually allowed to work in brothels, and that's actually the main reason why - they attract creepy clients with no respect for women.
That's all I can think of at the minute. More will probably pop into my head later.
Fabulous stuff, RN. I think I'm going to process a bit before I respond.
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 18:41
Well, at least when I start work on my book in a couple of weeks...most of the groundwork will have already been done!
PurpleNGold
04-27-03, 18:50
RN,
What category do you think you fit into? What category do you think your clients would say you fit?
Your descriptions are pretty good. I can think of at least one provider that would fit nicely (with some overflow) into each category.
Do you think there is any kind of progression through the groups? I would think that the 'nymphos' would tend to become 'career courtesans', while the 'bad girl wannabes' would grow into 'I'm so freakin gorgeous you should have to pay to just LOOK at me' if they don't run out the door.
Rubber Nursey
04-27-03, 19:20
PNG,
I think it's probably safe to say that I was a career courtesan. I adored my job, and I tried very hard to be good at it. I felt like I really "belonged" in the industry - and the way I've felt since I left it has certainly confirmed that for me. (Which is why I keep falling back into it every now and then. I just can't stay away. :))
I'd like to think that my clients saw me in the same way. I had a lot of regulars and got a lot of referrals and recommendations, so I guess I can't have been all that bad.
There's most definitely plenty of overflow - and progression can either occur due to experience, age, or changes in mood or life circumstances. When I first started, I was probably a cross between a bad-girl wannabe and a nympho...with a bit of "I'm so desperate for cash, I'll try just about anything!" thrown in. I needed money badly, but I was also single and really needed sex. The idea of working in a brothel - although scary at first - was a huge turn on for me, as well. After only a very short time I realised that I really loved the work, I liked seeing familiar faces so I wanted more regulars, and that if I wanted to stay in it for the long haul (which I had decided I did), I would need to treat it like a real business and work hard to be good at my job.
James D 2004
04-27-03, 22:43
Ah RN, an aspiring writer! That explains a lot and I respect that. Size 8 is too big for my taste. If you have size 6, you're welcome to stomp on me. I don't lick boots, but you can leave the heels on as long as I can get to the toes.
Popular writing is about sharing your experience to others who don't have it, provided that your audience are interested. I would be more interested in a worker's personal experience, rather than dry theories and classifications. So stick to your in-depth stories and experiences to sell books. Unless you want to be an academic or expert. Even that is a bit difficult. For example, your opinion on clients are more interesting than on escorts. The simple truth is that clients see a lot of escorts and they will have good idea about that. A client don't see other clients.
Books like Candyland is barely touching the surface. Any real client will know that the picture presented is narrow, and there are more interesting things to write about. If you are a real escort and you can write, sure you can beat books like that.
The dry classifications don't interest me that much. Every person went through different phases. Classification by age is not that spot on, even the range 25 to 35 is rather awkward. 25 is say out of college. 35 has 10 years of experience. Personal finance alone make a lot of difference. Another factor is a client's vitality. Guys that doesn't last that long, have only one shot, would naturally want eye candies, or oriental girls who can dazzle them with artistic shows and novel brothel tricks. Or GFE. The gifted would tend to prefer friendly provides who allows them to do many positions, and looks don't matter that much. And since money is a scared resource, clients can't afford the perfect girl, so there's a constant battle about what to get the next time.
There are also easier classifications for escorts as seen in the eyes of clients. In LA, in good times, if you are a young fairly looking Blondie, an aspiring model/actress, you ask for some $600 to $700. Some 18 year old dancers, after they approved you, offer sex for $1000. Porn stars with obscure movies another $1000.
The normal price is $300, $400. One client per month and you can lease a brand new MBZ E320 as low as $400. Two or three clients you can rent a decent flat. So many try and many don't want to leave because the money is so good. The price isn't lower because of neighborhood. In real estate, the same house worth a lot different in different locations. Same for escorts. In LA it's so easy to save up $100 or two, so if you lower the price you will see a lot of clients who you don't want to see. And if the neighborhood start degenerating, it's hard to regenerate.
On the lower scale are $150 asians often with temporary visas. On the lower scale, some boat people from Malaysia who worked like cattle, I heard. They even manage to smuggle in south american girls for immigrant workers with below minimum wages.
Just the other day, I saw a poster in an LA brothel saying that you can't have massage or acupressure, as they are illegal for the liscense, but you can have Q energy therapy. Couldn't stop laughing.
PurpleNGold
04-27-03, 23:24
Melissa Farley, paper presented at the 11th International Congress on Women’s Health Issues, University of California College of Nursing, San Francisco. 1-28-2000 as recorded on http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/factsheet.html
All prostitution causes harm to women. Whether it is being sold by one’s family to a brothel, or whether it is being sexually abused in one’s family, running away from home, and then being pimped by one’s boyfriend, or whether one is in college and needs to pay for next semester’s tuition and one works at a strip club behind glass where men never actually touch you – all these forms of prostitution hurt the women in it.
Well, we now have a definitive answer. You all read it, prostitution is wrong, always hurts women, and can never be an acceptable form of work for women. Good thing that this Web site is supporting such quality research.
It's sort of sad, this entire page, though touted as a fact sheet, is just a bunch of negative quotes about prostitution from a bunch of women who couldn't sell themselves if they gave 95% discounts.
James D 2004
04-28-03, 01:53
P&G, agree with you on the 2nd point, hehe.
But I have to agree with the quote. It hurts one way or the other, physically and / or mentally. Women should think hard about that if they have the choice. But the quote doesn't say that prostitution is wrong or imoral. That page is a collection of quotes, which points to different negative aspects of prostitution, but at 100 MPH, I don't seem to pick up that they are going for subject conclusions such as right or wrong, and the morality.
Often it's the choice of the better evil. In LA many stories involve young mothers faced with huge bills after birth complications. Pay off the 'lawyer fee' after getting here for the american dream, some $10,000 for visa and $60,000 for green card. And if you are unemployed and nothing out there, it's hard to go for a sweat shop when you have something to sell, that 1 client per month lets you drive a E320.
gee, let's see (the first thing on the page in question):
prostitution is:
a) sexual harassment
b) [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
j) a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) all of the above
nope, no way they're making a judgement about right or wrong here, since there's so many positive options one can choose on the list.
RN, thanks again for a thought-provoking list. A couple of comments/question spring to mind.
It would seem that for the most part the courtesans and the lost souls (possibly the nymphos as well) are the only ones who really might be thinking in terms of repeat business. The professionals might expect it, but they're not going out of their way to make it happen; the superstars presume that whoever comes through the door is going to go for them so who cares, and the sleepwalkers don't much care much about anything beyond what they need. Is that an accurate way of looking at things? Are there "lifespans" to the various types -- I'd presume that courtesans and professionals could last longest in the business, but what about the rest?
From the brothel perspective, what's the right or desired mix of worker types to keep the customers flowing in, or does it at all matter? (As you mention word of mouth based on the behavior of the superstars, I'd presume it has to matter at least somewhat.)
(Aside to TNH -- if someone's ponying up $2k for obscure porn stars in LA, they're vastly, vastly overpaying. Well-known stars on the road don't always get that, and since you've got tons who live in the LA area their rates are usually cheaper there. You can go to Silverlake and hook up with very well-known stars for $500 or less.)
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 02:49
Joe,
Do you think that the Lost Souls are more common in LOS or the PI?
I was thinking of my TG and thinking she fits perfectly into that class. Then, I started thinking about the common stories of people falling for these girls and maybe that induces a lost soul mentality.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 03:14
Here's a sex work survey. http://users.uniserve.com/~lowman/ICSS/netsamp.htm
It's interesting that less than 40% of the respondents thought Buying/Selling Sex in public should be prohibited by law. The number goes down to less than 20% if it's done in private.
So, assuming similar results would occur here, why the do we have stupid laws against it? Aren't our representatives supposed to be representative?
In another part of that survey, it notes that, of the 119 women who responded, 10% reported being assaulted (no definition given). This would be a 1 in 10 number compared with the 1 in 6 given earlier on the board.
BTW, that survey came from this site: http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~lowman/
Among other things, there's also a large bibliography of canadian literature on sex work.
Editing done to correct a misspelling
Well, I think the Lost Souls are everywhere :) but I think it's probably true that there are more of them in LOS and PI, simply because there's more of a history there of such dreams coming true. In both places there are untold numbers of GIs over time who've hooked up with local women and married them, and certainly there are tons of male tourists who end up doing the same. I'm not really qualified to talk about PI in terms of personal experience, as I've not spent time there (looks like I may be going there to do a bit of work in the next year, however.)
In Thailand, given that a woman surrenders all social status by being a sex worker (even while elevating that of her family with her earnings) and that social status is of such huge importance compared to most of the west, it's rather natural that many would look to hook up with customers -- few will have a realistic chance at marriage with a Thai man, even if they have Thai boyfriends, (it's just pretty impossible to hide the family in Thailand, which means it's hard to hide the neighbors, which means that everybody knows) and hooking up with a farang in marriage in some ways justifies the occupational choice. Because farangs generally exist outside the social structures of Thailand, they offer a different context for these women, one in which some degree of superiority is possible, either through economic well-being or through the understanding that they're getting over.
Certainly, I've heard a far, far greater number of stories and aspirations from TGs regarding this than I have anywhere else. In my "home" bar in Chiang Mai, the female owner headed to the Netherlands with her boyfriend while I was there in last time, in a trial run for a permanent move. The lovely woman who always lobbies me to take her as my "minor wife" has spent time in Sweden and London with different boyfriends (a year in each place) and is still weepy and broken-hearted that neither worked out. We had a number of conversations about her current two suitors -- the one farang she thought she was in love with but who was younger and might not be reliable or long-term, and the one who loved her who she didn't love, who she felt was a safer bet. Both could, she felt, take care of her, but she didn't know who'd be better.
Of the dozen or so women who worked in this not atypical bar, more than half had travelled out of the country with a farang boyfriend for some length of time, and two had failed farang marriages. That's a substantially higher number than you're ever going to find in the US or OZ using such a small sample, to say the least. Most bar girls in Thailand have at least one acquaintence who's hooked up with a customer, so it's understandable that it would seem a realistic ambition -- because to some extent it is.
That's a great survey, btw. Amazing and weird that a higher percentage of respondents thought pimping is immoral and should be prohibited by law than felt the same about snuff films.
James D 2004
04-28-03, 03:40
originally posted by joe_zop
gee, let's see (the first thing on the page in question):
prostitution is:
a) sexual harassment
b) [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)
c) battering
d) verbal abuse
e) domestic violence
f) a racist practice
g) a violation of human rights
h) childhood sexual abuse
i) a consequence of male domination of women
j) a means of maintaining male domination of women
k) all of the above
nope, no way they're making a judgement about right or wrong here, since there's so many positive options one can choose on the list.
those things are wrong being done to the prostitute. but the only sensible discussion point is that 'is it wrong to be a prostitute?'. use your head.
btw, don't think that with my keyboard speed faster than my brain can manage, i can write subtle things - that another grand means two grand. that is suppose to mean another example of one grand. i hate la porn stars by the look of it. i like semi-pro korean girls with temp visas.
James D 2004
04-28-03, 03:59
Originally posted by purplengold
Here's a sex work survey. http://users.uniserve.com/~lowman/ICSS/netsamp.htm
It's interesting that less than 40% of the respondents thought Buying/Selling Sex in public should be prohibited by law. The number goes down to less than 20% if it's done in private.
So, assuming similar results would occur here, why the do we have stupid laws against it? Aren't our representatives supposed to be representative?
First of all, I support legalization. But there will be big problems in USA where everything goes to extreme. Even plumbing fixtures in DIY stores are much more advanced than many other countries.
Thinking about your home value in mind. Legal in public means you have to state run some brothel areas - Amsterdam. Not Nevada types because you must find some where in the most accessible areas. Not bad but it comes with some stigmas. When I dressed not so outstandingly and went in alone to Amsterdam airport (Skepol?), the female officer smiled at me in a wicked way.
Legal in private then you have no control about zoning. A good 'bad' example is London. All the phone booths are littered with hundreds of cards of prostitutes. The working flats are everywhere. Higher end escorts have flats in posh areas like Mayfair. I personally walked up to buildings with a British guard on duty, which is rare there. In the south east they just brought up a house and used it as a brothel. It's a nice residential area and your kids may be playing in the garden while hearing orgasmic cries. If you are lucky enough to have these neighbors, you have no way of getting rid of them. And god bless your house value.
Originally posted by joe_zop
That's a great survey, btw. Amazing and weird that a higher percentage of respondents thought pimping is immoral and should be prohibited by law than felt the same about snuff films.
Now that I have a solution for: just make snuff films starring pimps as snuffees and solve two problems at once!
those things are wrong being done to the prostitute. but the only sensible discussion point is that 'is it wrong to be a prostitute?'. use your head.
no, use your head -- it says, "prostitution is" which is an argument for a point of view, one including a blanketly negative and political perspective. it doesn't say "prostitution includes" and list high earnings for short work hours, for example. obviously, no one's going to make the argument that having anything on that particular list happen to anyone is a good thing.
the entire site in question hasn't got a single vaguely positive or even neutral thing to say about prostitution. indeed, it includes articles by andrea dworkin, who has written such gems as "any violation of a woman's body can become sex for men," "penetrative intercourse is, by its nature, violent," "[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) is the primary heterosexual model for sexual relating" and my personal favorite -- "heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." it also boasts an article by catherine mackinnon, author of such lovelies as, "you grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs," "compare victims' reports of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) with women's reports of sex. they look a lot alike....[t]he major distinction between intercourse (normal) and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) (abnormal) is that the normal happens so often that one cannot get anyone to see anything wrong with it," and ""all sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." how can such a site possibly be viewed as other than absolutely anti-prostitution and generally anti-male propaganda?
fine on the one grand/two grand thing. but if your brain can't write subtle things using the keyboard, it's a dead certainty that none of us are going to be able to properly understand what you're trying to say, and i suggest to you that this may well be the source of much of the discord you end up facing here, especially since you tend to post in completely absolutist terms. we can only judge by what you post, using standard rules of language which tell us you're saying this or that, not by what you may or may not be thinking or meaning, or what your personal version of syntax might happen to be. we certainly have no idea how long it takes you to compose a post, or how much thought or change goes into it. if you're not going to worry about being precise, then i suggest you simply adopt the habit of apologizing for the lack of clarity when it comes up, and explaining what you mean as opposed to taking offense. that always works for me, and there are countless examples on this board of me confessing error or apologizing for innaccuracy when it's warranted.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 05:12
This isn't a survey, but I wish a taskforce like this would be empowered to make these changes on state and federal levels.
I especially like the fact that they recognize the high cost of prosecutorial approaches to prostitution and that it actually causes harm.
http://www.bayswan.org/1TF.html
RN, what do you think of the conclusions and suggestions? Would these be more along the lines of decriminalization as opposed to legalization?
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 05:13
Originally posted by Dickhead
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
You're right. I deleted my previous post.
PNG, you deleted your post, but I'm going to leave my response, at least for a while. So, as to why I might bother...
First, he's had the good grace to actually be on topic of late, and a bit less bellicose. I don't have a particular problem having a discussion with someone who needs to take a bit longer to articulate what they mean, as sometimes happens, for example, with people for whom English is a second language, as long as they're actually willing to work at it and can acknowledge that clarity may be an issue. Who knows if that's the case here, but TNH did acknowledge in the post I referred to that his writing probably wasn't clear. That's a step, at least.
There are only a couple of people either in my life or online that I'm not willing to engage, and they're those who make unwarranted personal attacks on people.
Does that mean I'm not going to challenge ridiculous overstatement if he continues to do it again and again? Hardly -- a forum such as this is only as good as the accuracy of the information that's exchanged. But to my mind someone who is on topic, even if I don't agree with what they post, is not being a troll.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 05:46
Originally posted by RN
PNG,
I think it's probably safe to say that I was a career courtesan. I adored my job, and I tried very hard to be good at it. I felt like I really "belonged" in the industry - and the way I've felt since I left it has certainly confirmed that for me. (Which is why I keep falling back into it every now and then. I just can't stay away. :))
I'd like to think that my clients saw me in the same way. I had a lot of regulars and got a lot of referrals and recommendations, so I guess I can't have been all that bad.
There's most definitely plenty of overflow - and progression can either occur due to experience, age, or changes in mood or life circumstances. When I first started, I was probably a cross between a bad-girl wannabe and a nympho...with a bit of "I'm so desperate for cash, I'll try just about anything!" thrown in. I needed money badly, but I was also single and really needed sex. The idea of working in a brothel - although scary at first - was a huge turn on for me, as well. After only a very short time I realised that I really loved the work, I liked seeing familiar faces so I wanted more regulars, and that if I wanted to stay in it for the long haul (which I had decided I did), I would need to treat it like a real business and work hard to be good at my job.
I didn't realize that you were semi-retired. Just curious, did you amass enough savings to retire? Or did you take a different job?
Also, just want to say that I wish I could have met you in your bad-girl/nympho stage.
James D 2004
04-28-03, 06:12
originally posted by joe_zop
those things are wrong being done to the prostitute. but the only sensible discussion point is that 'is it wrong to be a prostitute?'. use your head.
no, use your head -- it says, "prostitution is" which is an argument for a point of view, one including a blanketly negative and political perspective. it doesn't say "prostitution includes"
have it your way, lets see
prostitution is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), for example.
is being raped wrong? that is what i see the argument. obviously not.
of course you can argue whether prostitution=[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). if [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) is wrong, then prostitution is wrong. but that = is obviously false, see the dictionary. so i don't see how you can accuse the author saying that prostitution is wrong. if you take the words literally, that's not much point to read it. but take it this way, prostitution means being raped. then it has some truth to it. at times you feel being raped. very likely you get raped in the life.
in english, a little bit of unintentional difference, like a wrong preposition, can mean very different things. what i mean subtle is the subtle difference in sentence but far apart in meaning. the way i read and the way i think i will never try to write that sort of thing. if you see one grand, that's one grand.
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 06:36
Here's another fabulous site for finding out the "facts" about prostitution. www.escapeprostitution.com . Check out the Stats On Prostitution section! A few months ago, these people were looking for "survivors" of prostitution to participate in one of their studies. A note at the bottom said, (paraphrasing of course) "We understand that some women claim to choose to work in the sex industry, and that some even claim to enjoy it. Although we recognise that this opinion does exist among some prostitutes, theirs is not a viewpoint that we are seeking to include in our research".
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 06:40
And one more site that seems worth checking out.
http://www.med.vu.nl/hcc/
One particularly interesting article:
http://www.med.vu.nl/hcc/artikelen/caulfield.htm that talks about how sex workers can certainly enjoy their work and the sense of power it gives them.
Funny thing is that the quoted study, which says women in brothels feel better about themselves after they enter the profession, is used somewhere else to say that prostitution is bad: The fact that they feel better about themselves can prevent them from leaving the position--WTF? Can't remember what website I saw that on but I'll try to find it again.
James D 2004
04-28-03, 06:45
Originally posted by joe_zop
I don't have a particular problem having a discussion with someone who needs to take a bit longer to articulate what they mean, as sometimes happens, for example, with people for whom English is a second language, as long as they're actually willing to work at it and can acknowledge that clarity may be an issue.
Joe I don't think you have seen much technical articles written by europeans or japanese, in english. One person's self-regarded perfect english may be anothers trash. Look at it in another angle. Even if you assume that the author tried his very best, but if you find the words not to your liking, you don't need to read it and you don't need to response.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 06:50
Originally posted by RN
Here's another fabulous site for finding out the "facts" about prostitution. www.escapeprostitution.com . Check out the Stats On Prostitution section! A few months ago, these people were looking for "survivors" of prostitution to participate in one of their studies. A note at the bottom said, (paraphrasing of course) "We understand that some women claim to choose to work in the sex industry, and that some even claim to enjoy it. Although we recognise that this opinion does exist among some prostitutes, theirs is not a viewpoint that we are seeking to include in our research".
That's too funny. We want to do a scientific study, but we're going to exclude the majority of people we want to study.
From one of the 'FAQ' sections:
Therefore, some of us at Escape--as well as other women in the overall anti-pornography and anti-prostitution movement--prefer the terms "anti-exploitation feminist" (against the use of the image of woman in a derogatory manner) or even "progressive feminist" (a feminist who is forward-thinking and envisions a less-violent, more egalitarian world).
Well, seems like anti-exploitation (or progressive) feminists are not reading things like the article I just pointed out. They basically start out by defining prostitution as evil (note the list that Joe pointed out earlier) and therefore, any support of prostitution is wrong. Pathetic.
This is sort of a fun game. Here's another 'anti' site that says it's against all prostitution, but only defines the harms of things like child and forced situations: http://www.app-jp.org/english/
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 06:53
tallnhandsome
"But I have to agree with the quote. It hurts one way or the other, physically and / or mentally.
Don't take this the wrong way - I've said it to many other people on this board over the years - but until you have actually BEEN a prostitute, you are not qualified to say whether prostitution hurts or not. And until you have actually spoken to ALL prostitutes, you cannot say for sure whether it affects ALL prostitutes in the same way. But in my opinion, it only takes ONE prostitute to say that she was not hurt by prostitution - ME for example - and the whole theory goes out the window. If prostitution ITSELF is inherently bad/dangerous/etc, then surely it would affect each individual in the same way. But it doesn't. So this says to me that certain aspects SURROUNDING prostitution (most notably, the laws), can harm women in the sex industry.
Prostitution itself is simply having sex for money. Is having sex "hurtful"? Nope. Is earning money "hurtful"? Nope. So why on earth should it suddenly become so freaking "hurtful" when you put the two together??
tnh, the site literally says, prostitution is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), prostitution is a racist practice, and so on. that's as direct as you can get. it doesn't say "sometimes." since everyone agrees that [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) is wrong, agreeing that prostitution is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) means you are agreeing that prostitution is wrong. which is why i said the site makes an argument about right and wrong.
i don't see how you can say that a site that says that prostitution is "a means of maintaining male domination of women" doesn't take a particular side. that's simply ridiculous.
yes, the wrong preposition can make things have different meanings than you intend. what you wrote was "another $1000." in normal english that implies the number you said before, plus this new one. you are somehow expecting is that we're going to be able to know what your definition of a subtle difference happens to be, which is impossible. we can only deal with what is written, well or badly.
apparently png is correct, and you are incapable of possibly admitting you might be mistaken about something even as simple as this, not to mention basic reasoning as in the web page at issue, so i'll just put you back on my waste of time list. it's just too much time invested for too little return, and there are other people here who can manage to move conversation forward.
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 07:01
PNG,
My site says the same thing about prostitution making workers feel better about themselves. Of course, my site is really just a collection of personal rants and experiences, but eventually, when I get around to working on the thing again, I will be putting links to sites like the one you mentioned, to back up my observations with fact. (www.iinet.net.au/~ashkara)
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 07:04
Originally posted by RN
Prostitution itself is simply having sex for money. Is having sex "hurtful"? Nope. Is earning money "hurtful"? Nope. So why on earth should it suddenly become so freaking "hurtful" when you put the two together??
Ahhh... herein lies the crux of the anti-exploitation feminist's argument. Since they define sex with men to be hurtful then they can say having sex with men for money is always hurtful. Pretty stupid, but if you put garbage in...
BTW, ever wonder why these chicks always seem to be the nastiest looking creatures on earth? I mean, you see them on some talk show, and the first thought is "Is that really a woman?" I'd like to see a study that would count the percentage of 'anti-exploitation feminists' who are found attractive by members of the opposite sex. I bet the number would be very very low.
Joe I don't think you have seen much technical articles written by europeans or japanese, in english.
I have, in fact, taught exactly this, to exactly those students. And the point is that if they are willing to work on the deficiencies in their work, it's worth it both for them (because their intention is to properly communicate what they have to say) and for the audience (because we get the benefit of their thoughts.)
But it is the responsibility of the author, not the audience. And, excuse me, but getting language lectures from you is beyond laughable.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 07:07
Originally posted by RN
PNG,
My site says the same thing about prostitution making workers feel better about themselves. Of course, my site is really just a collection of personal rants and experiences, but eventually, when I get around to working on the thing again, I will be putting links to sites like the one you mentioned, to back up my observations with fact. (www.iinet.net.au/~ashkara)
I'd really like to read the original Thesis that keeps getting quoted. I'd like to see the statistical data and how it was gathered. Did a search for Diana Prince, but just got hits for people who were remarking on her results.
BTW, I like the title of your site.
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 07:09
The majority of them are lesbians - who hate the idea of hetrosexual sex as much as many straight men hate the idea of gay (anal) sex. What amazes me, is that their "followers" can't seem to see that THAT is what their entire anti-prostitution platform relies on!
Actually, PNG, Catherine MacKinnon is, as I recall, reasonably good looking. But you're right about the basic premise being that sex with men is hurtful -- you can see that in the quotes I posted earlier.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 07:15
RN,
it's not so amazing. Think about groups like the KKK that spout incredibly ignorant crap yet manage to have a significant following.
Joe,
I figure there might be a couple decent looking women, but I just think of the women I've seen speaking at demonstrations and on interviews.
BTW, I've known some hella beautiful lesbians, and they've never come off as man-haters. They are just into women.
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 09:57
Oops! I just re-read my post after PNGs comment on lesbians. For the record, I meant that those PARTICULAR anti-prostitution feminists were largely lesbians who hate men and/or hetro intercourse. Not that ALL lesbians hate men!
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 11:40
Ok, now to work my way back through it all, and find the questions!
First off...TNH,
The things I write are in response to direct questions. (And, those questions are coming from clients, or prospective clients). You're right - it would probably be more interesting for clients to learn about other clients, rather than hearing about working girls. However, my book is not really going to be written for clients OR sex workers. It will be written for the general public, who have no knowledge of prostitution from either side of the fence. I want them to know who clients are, and who sex workers are. I want them to see things from OUR perspective - straight from the horses mouth, so to speak - instead of them relying on all the myth and misinformation that's been written by feminists, churches or self-proclaimed "prostitution experts" who have never even MET a real live hooker. For once, I would like to see a book about the sex industry that is completely unbiased. (Yes, it may seem that any book *I* write, WILL be biased, but I'm going to try my hardest to ensure that it isn't). Rather than trying to prove a point, or even to raise the political profile of workers, etc, I just want it to be a book containing the "voices of sex workers". I want people to be able to step inside the industry, and see it for what it is - neither good nor bad, just how it is.
"Size 8 is too big for my taste. If you have size 6, you're welcome to stomp on me."
An Oz size 8 is a UK size 6. I think - although I'm not sure - that I am a US size 6 as well. Either way, my boots are small enough to be sexy, but big enough to bring tears to your eyes if you're cheeky to me. ;)
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 12:15
Joe,
"Are there "lifespans" to the various types"
One obvious one is that the georgeous young things are not going to be gorgeous young things forever. Eventually they will not be in such high demand, and they will have to either quit the industry, or change their approach to their work. They would probably become more like the professionals - improving their customer service, but not really improving their sexual service.
Also, the nymphos tend to be women around my age - the age where sexuality peaks, and sexual "selfishness" begins. Eventually they would probably either become career courtesans, or tire of it and leave the industry.
And of course sleepwalkers may stop using drugs, or learn to deal with their addiction better. If they really hated the work, they would probably just leave without the addiction to support, but they might choose to hang around seeing as that's what they know. They COULD become professionals, but my guess is they would probably become lost souls.
"I'd presume that courtesans and professionals could last longest in the business, but what about the rest?"
Actually, career courtesans are much more likely to suffer burnout than anyone else. Professionals probably have a much better chance of lasting in the industry. Career courtesans need to ensure they have plenty of breaks, and do a bit of a 'reality check' every now and then. Professionals don't let their clients intrude on their lives as much.
The rest come and go. But many people don't WANT to last in the industry - they just want to make their money and leave. There will always be a market for drug users, young stunners, older women, etc, so it's not like you HAVE to work hard and take your job seriously, in order to get clients. I guess it comes down to what each individual woman hopes to get from her time in the biz.
"From the brothel perspective, what's the right or desired mix of worker types to keep the customers flowing in, or does it at all matter?"
I think you'd want all the girls to have their heads screwed on, and treat the job (and themselves) with respect. There should be a strong focus on customer service. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that everyone should behave like a career courtesan - just that they should show loyalty and respect to the brothel, by treating the clients right.
As for a mix - obviously it's good to have a range of ages and body types. Not only does it make it better for clients to choose from, but it means that the girls aren't directly "competing" against each other. Everyone gets their fair share of work. You'd want a few loyal career courtesans and professionals, so you have regular clientele (and income) coming in, and get good recommendations. You need a couple of young stunners, so that clients don't see the same faces in the lounge every day - but they have to know how to treat the customers right! And you need a couple of girls who don't give too much of a damn, or the nymphos, for those clients that just want a straight, no-fuss, sex service after a night on the town. I hate to say it, because I don't like to exclude people, but you definitely don't want sleepwalkers. Very bad for business.
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 12:45
PNG,
"RN, what do you think of the conclusions and suggestions? Would these be more along the lines of decriminalization as opposed to legalization?"
The Task Force report is excellent. I have used comments and findings from that report many times during lobbying efforts. New Zealand also did a similar study, and gave an almost identical report.
Yes, what they recommend is decriminalisation. They suggest that all criminal sanctions against prostitution be removed, and that sex industry businesses be subject to regular business approvals and guidelines (as it is in Sydney, Australia). Until those laws can be changed at a State level - they recommend that the police no longer prosecute prostitution offences. They have actually just recently done this in South Australia - police are apparently going to "ignore" prostitution from now on, and the Vice Squad has been disbanded. However, that leaves workers in the precarious position that we in Western Australia are in...even though they SAY they will not prosecute some offences (not all, here) the law still gives them the power to if they suddenly feel like it.
Decriminalisation is the only model that makes sense. It improves safety and health, it minimises violence and organised crime and police corruption, and ultimately, it also alleviates some of the stigma of being involved in the sex industry (not straight away, of course, but in the end it should help a bit to not be considered "criminals"). It also saves the police - and thus, the taxpayers - a hell of a lot of money, and allows police to divert their much-needed resources elsewhere. And the simple fact is...sex between consenting adults in private, has NO PLACE in the Criminal Code.
Rubber Nursey
04-28-03, 12:59
Oh, and PNG...
"I didn't realize that you were semi-retired. Just curious, did you amass enough savings to retire? Or did you take a different job?"
A few different things led to me leaving work - most beyond my control - but yes, I found a great job that I love to bits and my life has been kind of dominated by it since. And no, I didn't leave with ANY savings! I worked to pay of thousands of dollars in debts, then worked to set myself up in a lifestyle I was comfortable with, then got a few loans to build up my credit rating in preparation for a home loan - and then was forced to stop work, and got left with a heap of debts! LOL But it was all worth it.
"Also, just want to say that I wish I could have met you in your bad-girl/nympho stage"
Oh, I can assure you...I never really left that stage. ;)
James D 2004
04-28-03, 16:29
originally posted by rn
tallnhandsome
"but i have to agree with the quote. it hurts one way or the other, physically and / or mentally.
don't take this the wrong way - i've said it to many other people on this board over the years - but until you have actually been a prostitute, you are not qualified to say whether prostitution hurts or not. and until you have actually spoken to all prostitutes, you cannot say for sure whether it affects all prostitutes in the same way. but in my opinion, it only takes one prostitute to say that she was not hurt by prostitution - me for example - and the whole theory goes out the window. if prostitution itself is inherently bad/dangerous/etc, then surely it would affect each individual in the same way. but it doesn't. so this says to me that certain aspects surrounding prostitution (most notably, the laws), can harm women in the sex industry.
prostitution itself is simply having sex for money. is having sex "hurtful"? nope. is earning money "hurtful"? nope. so why on earth should it suddenly become so freaking "hurtful" when you put the two together??
and don't take me the wrong way too. i enjoy the company of prostitutes. now that i see your website, i understand more of you. i thought you were doing books or website to get something out of your chest, rather than trying to sell books, a lot of them, i'm not that interested. i don't see myself interested in a lot of dry research, and rants, and so do the book buying public that make best sellers.
i said i agree to that quote, being not interested the truth of other's theory, naturally i mean i would agree to something like your saying, "so this says to me that certain aspects surrounding prostitution (most notably, the laws), can harm women in the sex industry." (except that i would replace most notably with including)
my actual opinion will be that being a prostitute will likely to be hurt in many ways. physically you can multiply the number of date [CodeWord124] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124) (ordinary women) many times in places like usa, when most workers are not 'sheltered' in a brothel, and you can't complain to the police. i have said that some girls just need one or half a client per month to drive an expensive car. i wish i had jobs like that. even worse, there are many asian hostess in la that don't go to bed with clients (only perhaps once in a blue moon), just by talking their way through. they get all their bills settled by the first or first few nights of the month. the parking lot of these hostess clubs looked like a mbz dealership.
but when things changed, like the present climate, when they couldn't settle all their bills in the first week, panic, not enough money at the end of month, desperate. since they have nothing to fall back on, they are certainly going through the downward spiral. even aspiring models are negotiable, escorting is available if the price is right.
i'm sure there are many prostitutes who enjoy their work. but also there are many prostitutes are 'hurt' physically and mentally. if you want to get something off your chest, and get back at people whose words hurt you, by all means try to prove somebody's theory is wrong. if you want to win support, thing of what's bothering the general public, say the problem of real estate, and the stigma of amsterdam and nevada.
i must thank you for praising my australian physical and human geography regarding perth. i didn't realize that i'm right when you mentioned that last time.
James D 2004
04-28-03, 16:45
originally posted by joe_zop
tnh, the site literally says, prostitution is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), prostitution is a racist practice, and so on. that's as direct as you can get. it doesn't say "sometimes." since everyone agrees that [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) is wrong, agreeing that prostitution is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) means you are agreeing that prostitution is wrong. which is why i said the site makes an argument about right and wrong.
i don't see how you can say that a site that says that prostitution is "a means of maintaining male domination of women" doesn't take a particular side. that's simply ridiculous.
you gave me good examples to repeat my viewpoint, saving me a lot of typing. yes, 'prostitution is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)' is ridiculous. if you want take it literally, then there's no point to argue about ridiculous things. taking sides, yes. but there's some difference between prostitution is wrong and being a prostitute is wrong. given the choice
a) prostitution is wrong
b) prostitution is somethings wrong/right
c) prostitution is right
i will choose (a). but if you end up being a prostitute, there's nothing wrong about it. we all have to choose the best of all evils. as long the message is that prostitution is the last resort, it's ok. choosing anything other than (a) may run the risk of giving the wrong message. what will rn say if she has a 18 year old daughter?
James D 2004
04-28-03, 18:39
Originally posted by joe_zop
Joe I don't think you have seen much technical articles written by europeans or japanese, in english.
I have, in fact, taught exactly this, to exactly those students. And the point is that if they are willing to work on the deficiencies in their work, it's worth it both for them (because their intention is to properly communicate what they have to say) and for the audience (because we get the benefit of their thoughts.)
But it is the responsibility of the author, not the audience. And, excuse me, but getting language lectures from you is beyond laughable.
Attitudes like yours need to be flexible. Talking about technical, many places in USA are like United Nations now. Many students complain that their expert tutors are difficult to understand when they speaks. In many company buildings, the diversity ratio in the lift is off the roof.
Let's don't generalize. Let me tell you a story of mine. Since you can find my articles in most respectable libraries in the world, in print or online, one more or one less published doesn't bother me. Once in a blue moon I come across my own new theories or inventions that could be very interesting for a footnote of human civilization but doesn’t make money for myself. I dumbed it down in order to pass through the company lawyers. If they think the info helps the competition, or leak information about what the company is doing, the article will be hold up for many years. Many would have come across the same problem and derived the same solution by then.
In good times most people are looking after their portfolio or worrying about IPO’s rather than having the urge to write articles or review them. Many journals are in deep trouble one way or the other. Two few authors, or too much that overwhelmed the system.
I submitted the article. I reviewed these things and I know that the editor have to send out the article to many reviewers in the hope that the minimum number would reply, about 3. Often those replied first are those with a bit of time at hand, and they are very picky, often forgetting the purpose of the journal and their job is. The fact is by nature you often know very little about the new things, and if you want to stay on the review list you want to reply. Often what you can criticize is the organization of the article rather than the correctness / usefulness of the content. A guy picked on a few things that he doesn’t know about, quite usual. He suggested that I should find some English-speaking co-workers to help with the article. I looked around and laughed. I can find one who can understand the content, but he speaks Russian. Nowadays you use Microsoft Word and you get perfect spelling with no sweat. Bill Gates picks up all the dubious sentence structure and if you care to simply or rewrite, you get perfect articles according to Bill Gates at an instant. The article got rejected because of the 3rd guy. There’s no 2nd chance with the journal. But I sensed that the editor had to do that only because of formality. I resubmitted adding only replies to the criticisms, as that article is perfect English according to Bill. It’s really hard not to pick up what I want to say. I’m not supposed to do that, but the editor just found another reviewer so that my article can be published. Again you can find that in most respectable libraries in the world, in print or online.
May I repeat myself that if you don’t want to read, you don’t have to. The author failed to have one more reader, and the reader may not know what he/she is missing, that’s mutual. I don’t have advice to experts all around America, but my advice to students is to use MS Word. If you don’t get it for free, 95 or 97 don’t cost that much. And don’t be deterred by reviewers picking on Bill Gate’s English.
Hear is my letter. Eye rote it using bill gates spell chequer. As yew can sea their our know mistakes.
What a joke. Microsoft's encyclopedia is riddled with errors, too. Check out how they define the various types of cousins; it is completely incorrect.
The May 5, 2003 Business Week has an article (pg. 12) showing a study of graduate students proofreading a business letter. On average, the ones with high verbal SAT scores made 5 errors with the spell checker off and 16 with it on. The ones with lower scores made 12.3 errors with it off and 17 with it on.
James D 2004
04-28-03, 19:22
Originally posted by Dickhead
Hear is my letter. Eye rote it using bill gates spell chequer. As yew can sea their our know mistakes.
The grammar checker flagged "rote" and suggested wrote. The spell checker don't know about "chequer". I appreciate your time to make this up, but that would score 0 in SAT, irrelevant to your arguments. Business letter is different. I wouldn't think that any editors would want my business article. As for myself, I can't proof read myself because of the way I read, especially typos. And I won't be thinking about perfect sentence structure when I'm capturing my brain in real time. Word is as useful as having several graduate students to proof read for you. If you reject all the graduate student articles, god bless.
PurpleNGold
04-28-03, 19:33
RN,
I'm looking forward to your book. Maybe, we can start a program similar to the Gideons :)
so what if the us or anywhere else is like the united nations? i've done extensive work in situations where there are people with a dozen different native languages are at the table, and it means, rather than that one needs to be flexible, that one needs to be more responsible and that in order to keep the quality and accuracy of conversation high, extra care needs to be taken. otherwise you can disempower or isolate people who are bright and involved simply because they can't understand what's being said. (this is the complaint of the students with non-native teachers to whom you refer -- they want to learn, want to do well, and find the process frustrating. in most situations, schools are active in pressing such teachers to work on their skills.) this is particularly true when you're talking about technical writing, when miscommunication can lead to real-world damage. it's more work, but if you want anything truly useful to come from it, it's necessary. people go to war over sloppy translations and imagined insults, for heaven's sake.
grammar checkers and spellchecks are by their very nature flawed and unreliable, since they're based in mathematics and not in an inherent human understanding of language, and depending on them is like depending on an old map over the knowledge of people who live in an area. i look at these tools like i look at computer operating systems -- they all suck, but in places they suck slightly less than they used to. word's built-in functions by default promote simple business structure as the preferred model -- few people even understand that they can change the templates, let alone the limitations of those templates. as far as i'm concerned, word's grammar checker is a microsoft virus aimed at bringing about about the death of language.
and as someone who's been an editor and a writer in many, many guises, and who's worked a great deal with graduate students, yes, absolutely damn straight that i'd reject most of what they do in terms of proofing and correcting, both because proofreading is a learned skill and most of them don't know it and because the average language skill level of a graduate student generally isn't all that high (not even thinking here of their attention spans.) i don't say that as a knock, but as a fact, which reflects dickhead's citation from business week. accepting an article filled with grammatical and structural errors, if i'm an editor, means i have to pay someone to correct it or do it myself, since if i've got the least bit of self-respect or pride in my publication i'm certainly not going to put it out it like that. why should i go for that, as opposed to ask the author to do their damned job in the first place? generally, i'm going to say it's not worth the trouble, unless what's there is truly exceptional, and i'll look for something else. if someone doesn't think enough of what they've written to present it in the best light, why should i give it special credence? there is never a shortage of wannabe writers, only competent ones.
using the excuse that your brain working too fast to be bothered to be accurate is both a sign of intellectual laziness and disrespect for your reader. i seriously doubt the brain of anyone posting here whirs at any less spectacular a rate than yours.
the bottom line is simple -- the essence of writing is supposed to be communication. if proper communication isn't happening properly, the onus is on the speaker or writer to work to make themselves clear, because theirs is the noise that is ruining the all-too-hard-to-come-by silence. they at least have the responsibility to make the interruption worthwhile as opposed to simply uttering another barbaric yawp.
(and let me note again that i'm not some language snob -- i'm a kid who grew up listening to people do the dozens on my streecorners. i use language the way i personally do because i love it and it's how i was taught. but high speech, low speech, grammatical errors, esl, whatever -- i could care less, as long as it's possible to accurately understand what the hell is being said.)
James D 2004
04-28-03, 21:26
Joe, you began to sound like Steve Job complaining about Bill on public that he has no style, or the British army complaining that the Yankees are coming at them at no formation to speak of. Not so long ago corporate america are forcing the senators to fight to increase the H1 L1 visa quotas. If you don't have to, you don't need to employ tutor/professors with imperfect english speaking skills. Flexibility is the word. There are much worse things to do than being a prostitute. I assure you that the editor cannot find things to correct in my article regarding to english. For them it's no sweat either. The reviewer's complain includes too often use of the word 'etc', etc! I just used it twice in two consecutive sentences. Not that I cannot avoid, but that's not something I ought to avoid according to my philosophy. Hehe.
Another topic. I never tried boots. It's unusual for girls to wear them if you don't ask. Could be fun. I like the foot to be semi-covered to some extend, just like lingeries.
RN, so are you saying that career courtesans have more difficulty maintaining a separation between the job and the rest of their life because the job provides an identity or vocation, whereas the "professionals" keep things strictly in the job category? The burnout sounds a lot like what can happen to counselors, among others.
In fact it's interesting, perhaps ironically, if that's the case, since it runs parallel to how I'd categorize cops -- the most successful and long-lasting ones (and in the case of police, most often the best) are the ones who treat what they do strictly as a job. It's the idealists and control freaks who end up being disasters -- the control freaks for obvious reasons, the idealists because they discover they're powerless to change anything, and usually end up cynical, bitter and hostile, unless they either get out or rise through the ranks.
I'm neither competing with Gates not at war with Americans. My comments are about quality of communication as connected to purpose -- which relates directly to the usefulness of posts on this board. Hiring thousands of software programmers or engineers from Asia or wherever who speak relatively poor English, for example, is no skin off my nose -- unless you want to put them in front of an auditorium full of people and then blame the audience for not understanding them, or have them write technical manuals in faulty English that get people killed because they're unclear. When I worked with Korean and Chinese grad students it was about helping them communicate well enough to say what they wanted to say, get their thesis accepted, and to get the jobs they wanted. In situations where there are clear standards and barriers, making the argument that people just ought to loosen up can be making an argument for condemning people to personal failure.
"Your philosophy" is a screw-you one in terms of promoting miscommunication and lack of clarity, and if you're going to take that approach and impose the results of it on the rest of us, you ought to at least take some responsility for resulting misunderstandings or misreadings.
James D 2004
04-29-03, 00:30
Originally posted by joe_zop
"Your philosophy" is a screw-you one in terms of promoting miscommunication and lack of clarity, and if you're going to take that approach and impose the results of it on the rest of us, you ought to at least take some responsility [T&H RESPONSIBILITY] for resulting misunderstandings or misreadings.
What I'm promoting is for native speakers not to be surprised with I do already, or I has ten toes. At least for me when I did my brain capture without turning on the grammar checker. Language and thinking are related. An action (verb) and time-line (tense) are two naturally unrelated things. If your language don't twist them up, the better. There's no need to force yourself to think in that way. It's trivial to correct those automatically. It's as harmless as misspelling some words like joe above. When you let your hair down, like wearing only your boxer in front of your home computer, there's nothing to be ashamed of those things. For suit occasions, just turn on the grammar checker. So in WSG, I think some "screw-you" attitude is very appropriate.
PosterLion
04-29-03, 03:28
For RN and Joe.Z,
for RN: well, you're a girl on a lonely board. how could i not start to thinking?...
Joe.Z,
you like Sartre and that reminds me of a street in Romania where a girl lives I once loved.
for RN and Joe.Z,
Your correspondance reminds me of the letters written between Simone de Beauvoir and Jean-Paul Sartre_
for the both of you:
alongside the road in an indifferent universe
the flowers riot in the
field and
struggle to find their sun
as the butterflies land
on what they are
looking for
i'm not sure how to
make it out,
all that clever beauty
swaying back and forth
between mass conflict
but i do understand
something about
fences,
like the one between
me
and what i see
now
all that is necessary
is to begin,
whether i stumble
or fall
or make it over
goes away
as i become
what i'm looking
for
Do I need to ask a question now? Hmmm, how are you???
Rubber Nursey
04-29-03, 11:28
PosterLion,
Simone de Beauvoir and Jean-Paul Sartre? Oh, my goodness - what does a girl say to something like that??? Although from memory, de Beauvoir and Sartre both slept with everything that moved...and they had a live-in teenage plaything for a time, as well. Hmmm what do you think Joe? I could probably get used to that... *wicked grin*
Thank you, PosterLion. :) And welcome to the Morality section (or should that be, welcome to T&H's English 101???)
T&H - give it up! There is nothing you can teach Joe about English. Absolutely nothing. Trust me.
Rubber Nursey
04-29-03, 12:14
Joe,
"RN, so are you saying that career courtesans have more difficulty maintaining a separation between the job and the rest of their life because the job provides an identity or vocation, whereas the "professionals" keep things strictly in the job category? The burnout sounds a lot like what can happen to counselors, among others."
Yep, that's exactly it. As much as the Moral Minority would laugh at this statement - prostitution is very much a "caring profession". We spend day after day listening to stories of wives dying or having affairs...lost loves...lost jobs...sexual dysfunctions... insecurities about bodies, faces, ages, height, sexual preferences...the list just goes on. And a career courtesan will often find herself being drawn into those clients' lives, and trying to help them through it - whether that be by giving practical advice, or by just being a shoulder to cry on. In the same way that counsellors often start to 'take their work home with them', so do career courtesans. It's very hard to be empathetic, but still keep a healthy distance...especially when you consider that sex workers are also being physically intimate with their clients, as well as giving emotional support.
If you consider, for example, that I have just had sex with one of my regulars. We have seen each other often enough to pretty much be classed as friends. Over the time, he's told me all about his daughter's engagement, grumped about the money his wife spends on shoes, beamed with pride when his son got into University, etc. I'm laying there naked, (and a little vulnerable after orgasm)...and he bursts into tears, and says his son is in hospital in a coma. How could you NOT take that to heart? As with counsellors, it takes all your strength not to burst into tears right then and there. Countless times I calmed clients down, cheered them up, kissed them goodbye and then cried my heart out in the shower. And then, to top it all off, you can't even go home and debrief with partners or friends, because they often they don't know you are working. It's very emotionally draining.
hah, well, posterlion, we should be only so blessed as to be able to correspond at a fraction of that high level, but thanks for the compliment. (i can never decide whether existentialist romantics or those who are controlled by the gods are the most compelling.) gotta say that i'm more than willing to hand over my (i think inaccurate) designation as incurable romantic of the board to you.
rn, i think we'd need to be on the same continent to manage setting up housekeeping, but it's definitely a compelling thought -- especially since you appear to have already identified a third. :) though i'm not sure i want to hang out in the sticks near oil wells, so we may have to settle on my version of countrified (which to tnh means anything outside of socal.)
tnh, very well, then, since you feel it's warranted on the board: screw you. the issues with your writing are hardly simply those of tense -- fragmented thoughts and structures where one has to absolutely guess at the meaning are far more annoying. (and an occasional typo is hardly on the same level, so spare me.) i've no problem whatsoever with experimental writing, do it myself, and i love people who can do it well, such as joyce and delillo, to name only two. i've also absolutely no problem with the un- or undereducated, with whom i've spent a lot of time working, or with an esl situation. fair enough, allowances are always in order as long as the writer is willing to clarify as opposed to blame the listener/reader. but to expect us all to read between the lines and figure out how your specific holy brain works (especially when it's often all too clear that the answer is "not that well") because you have a "theory" is nothing but a demonstration of truly monumental egotism, and is certainly not worth the effort based on the apparent quality of discourse. to paraphrase shaw, the problem is that you lack the power of conversation but not the power of speech. but, so it goes -- i'll waste my time instead with people who give a minor damn about being understood, and with them i'm always more than willing to go the extra mile.
RN, hmm, I seem to recall you saying you went out of your way not to be emotionally involved with clients -- is this a reversal, or are you saying that you generally try/tried but don't sucessfully manage? Is this something that happens primarily with regulars? Since you're no longer affiliated with a brothel, I'd presume that on those occasions when you are semi-unretired it's mostly with a regular, (if I'm wrong I'd be interested in hearing your business methodology) but what percentage of clients would you say a career courtesan has in the scene with which you're familiar? (The presumption here being that if a career courtesan gets such stress primarily from regulars, the higher the percentage of regulars the higher the likelihood of stress.)
I would also note that your description of emotional empathy is, of course, another major reason men find the scene so alluring. Truly sympathetic ears, even ones you pay for, are not that easy to find.
James D 2004
04-29-03, 19:25
Originally posted by RN
T&H - give it up! There is nothing you can teach Joe about English. Absolutely nothing. Trust me.
How about using a spell checker?
Dick Johnson
04-29-03, 23:16
what the fuck is going on here? i was gone a few days and some retard is wrecking havoc.
tallanddumb there's a new section created for you, it's called the morality of bullshitting.
tallhandjob you are the most worthless pathetic smartass around. i first identified you as a high school dumbass and png and i kicked your ass out of the la section, where you went on and on about 'shisami' and chinese food. then you go to the bangkok section offering blowjobs to anyone willing to support your points on massage. joezop did not heed my advice that you're a fool and came to your rescue but later you stabbed him in the back. .
then you come here and try to be sherlock holmes, figuring out who people live with and sh*t. who do you live with? your parents i'm sure. do you share a room with your sister?
all the time you offer no real information. just jamming the airwaves with your nonsense. on and on about english, spelling, 'shisami', chinese food, massage etc.
i'm sure the stuff about you going to bangkok, amsterdam and london are all made up. you made up stuff about going to bangkok and having an **** thai girl just to show you know something. typical stereotypical ideas. png, there's no way tallhandjob is le, he's too retarded.
jackson, kick this worthless troll!
James D 2004
04-30-03, 00:43
Dick, you seem to be very pissed-off. Calm down.
PosterLion
04-30-03, 00:44
DJ!
Man I'm glad I never atracted your wrath! But I tend to agree with your points of view while trying to find my own.
JZ,
You got me right, i'm a worthless slob smoking cigs and drinking vino while writing illiterate verbose things, it's my only virtue: thanks for the comp man.
RN,
toward the bottom is a comp for all them girls with prop enough to calm the restless man.
for everyone else: peace... it's out there somewhere_ message me when you find it...
more BS follows: (what the F? this is a world sex forum, why am i doing this?)
first, a little latino thought, then comes the stuff for RN, "(JZ)", feel free to be included, i'm hoping for you and RN to make something para mi. :)
===
the widows and orphans fund
while a young girl waits for her
mom to get home from work,
a man pays five dollars
to buy her mom a drink
the waiter comes back
with the drink and places
it on the table,
then he lays a 25 cent
coin next to the glass
"gracias."
the coin is bent in the middle,
as if it were hit with a hammer
while it was in a vice
she picks up the coin,
puts it in her pocket,
then she smiles at the
man
"salude!"
the glasses clink,
"to nothing,
nothing is perfect
and everything is a dream."
she puts her hand
on his leg
and hopes he will
want her
he allows her advance
and hopes that he might
feel
what he can no longer
feel
a love song begins
as he puts his hand
on hers,
looking into her eyes
they were dark and void
and she began to sing the
words,
he smiled at her as he
held her hand
from a distance
it looked as if they
were happily
in
love
===
now for the RN's out there amongst us
===
11pm on a Sunday worth dying for
I know a lady that is a women that is
a girl that writes very brave words and
she cut her hair today and put on her armor
like Joan of Arch when God called her
to save France and burn on a stake like a
heretic suing for damages that did not occur,
and I saw her sabre her sword while mounting a
noble horse and she kicked it in the side as she
cried out for her cause and her God_ the horse
galloped underneath her and she saved France,
be there no doubt it was her fresh fruit and
her virginity that saved us even though she
was not fresh and had been hooking for years
on the streets of L.A. where there are many
actors that are considered highly successful
living in big houses on the edge of a precipice,
I watched her gallop away fresh and virgin and fighting
for a cause that does not want to be saved
as I say the "Our Father" and cling to a
hope there will always be something worth
dying for because there needs to be something
to inspire epitaphs scratched in infinite granite
that tells us and shows us there is something
meaningful in a life that twists and
turns out of order while infinity intrigues us
in a way that is not mathematical except
for Architects and Artists that also saw
this lady that is a women that is a girl
naked with child on wobbly legs so courageous
we call her blessed among women and we
fight and kill for her and the little baby
she protects...
Dick Johnson
04-30-03, 02:18
tallhandjob, read my post again, and again.
Are you Korean?
Dick Johnson
04-30-03, 02:25
Posterlion, you don't have to worry.
All right, let's get back on track. Today I had lunch with a good female friend (only). We were discussing my plans to evacuate; she is disappointed about this because, among other things, I give her tax and financial advice. She asked me if I was serious about the woman I met in Argentina. I said it was too soon to tell. She asked me if I was still seeing hookers down there in addition to amateurs. I said "yeah." She asked why. I said "Well, my friend doesn't really care and said it was OK." She asked me if I was really sure she didn't care. I said, "All I have to go by is what she said and she said it was OK."
Then she asked me if I screwed my friend and hookers both on the same day. I said "yeah." She asked me if I did that because the sex with the friend was inadequate. I said "no." She said, "Then why do it?" I said, "I don't know, it's there, I like it, and if it felt wrong then I would feel guilty, and then I wouldn't do it, but it doesn't so I do." She said, "Well, I know you are a cheap bastard so why pay for it if you can get it for free?" I said, "Good point but the fact I can get it for free twice a day makes the whole trip so inexpensive I have money left over so why not spend it on hookers?" She said, "Why don't you give the money to your friend instead since she is poor? (these two have talked to each other a few times via e-mail)" I said, "Well, wouldn't that make her a hooker too if I did that?" She said, "Why don't you give her the money as a gift?" I said, "If I gave you money on your birthday instead of a card or a gift, wouldn't you be insulted?" She said, "Yes, but I am not poor." I said, "Well, the hookers I pay are probably poor too."
She asked me if I thought they were as poor as my friend. I said that I didn't think so, but that I had done some other things to help my friend out financially that I thought were better than just giving her money. I mentioned the Biblical saying, "Give a [person] a fish and they eat for a day; teach them to fish and they eat for a lifetime." She said, "Look, I know you go trolling for hookers on a lot of your trips; do you ever feel guilty?" I said, "Honestly, no, and can you think of a reason why I should? I always treat them square and I am not forcing anyone to do anything." She said she'd have to think about it.
So later this afternoon she calls me up and says, "You know, I was raised Catholic and I always thought prostitution was immoral but now I am not so sure." So I asked her why she had thought it was immoral and she said ..... [long pause] .... "You know, I'm not sure!"
I consider this a moral victory. If I can get reasonable, thoughtful people (women especially) to think about this kind of stuff reasonably and not get emotional about it that, then maybe there is hope for change.
Geez, DickHead
After reading your little story, I suddenly have doubts myself . . .
Maybe it IS immoral . . .
PosterLion
04-30-03, 04:28
DJ,
F... Immoral. this is a breakthrough! Don't stop pushing the envelope, everyone is doing it whether they know it or not. It's that GD freedom thing we are killing each other over, congrats, te que vaya bien y que aprenda mucho, at least more then me.
Well, this is what I wrote my TG tonight... So many people concerned I might be falling off a cliff. I hope so! I like to fly...
well, here goes nothing, a somewhat small begininning, nothing else:
===
4 You
i know you know
a black moment
like when we kiss
and
agree
on whatever
feels right
we spoke of a magic
door
leading to infinity
a concept that
the mathematicians
are still calculating
2 plus 2 becomes something
more
as her ass encircled
me
till i came, running...
why is everything
so far away?
like you
and this door
i see
opening
like everything
gone
before
it's gotten
===
p.s. good story amigo, hit the send button before you can think, maybe the best way to be!
Rubber Nursey
04-30-03, 04:48
"You know, I was raised Catholic and I always thought prostitution was immoral but now I am not so sure." So I asked her why she had thought it was immoral and she said ..... [long pause] .... "You know, I'm not sure!"
The sheep mentality at work. "Ours is not to question why".
PosterLion
04-30-03, 04:58
Hey Dickhead,
Please excuse the F@#% out of me. I replied to you as DJ when I meant DH. Well, if you read him a little, he has been holding a secret that is kicking the shit out of him, I've been following his pain too much to the point I called you by the wrong name! Give me a bullet and I'll be a Russian para un momento! :)
Hey DJ... Well you can see it, DJ or DH... she smiles at me and said, "I don't remember his name. He always gives 60 dollars."
poster...
Dickhead,
Interesting posting. Thanks. Maybe there is some hope for some of the women here.
While the issue of morality vs. immorality is a personal and highly subjective issue (if not irrelevant in the grand scheme of the cosmos), I thought that her respone to your seeking out non-American women was extraordinarily neutral and non-judgemental. Every time I have revealed to a woman here that I was going abroad to seek sex, I've been torched without exception. And I mean truly torched. Even my sister-in-law almost threw me out of her house when the topic was revealed over dinner in front of my brother. He thought it was pretty cool what I was doing and was rather intrigued with the whole concept.
Basically, I won't even bring the issue up any more to anyone in the interests of self-preservation.
I haven't had too many problems with my good friends as far as mongering goes. I don't discuss it except with people I have known for many years. I've known this woman for maybe 18 years and her husband for I think 23 years. He says "it's all prostitution," meaning marriage and so forth (everybody gives something to get something, I guess would be the best way to paraphrase it). They have a very good marriage, the best I've seen, and so she is probably more secure than the average woman. He had very little sexual experience before he met her and she had quite a bit; she is a few years older than he is (she and I are the same age). Her main thing with me was that she thinks I "need a relationship" and could be risking my chances with my Argentinean friend by screwing around. Now I think she understands that 1) prostitution/mistresses/screwing around is more acceptable other places than it is in the US, if done somewhat discreetly, and 2) I don't "need a relationship" if I am getting enough good quality sex. Plus I think she thought I was going back down there just to see my friend and now she realizes that it is way too soon for anything to be serious.
As I said, the two of them have chatted, but my US friend has minimal Spanish so they use on-line translators and stuff and I am not sure they can really communicate. What I DO know is that my Argentinean friend is pumping my US friend for info but even that is pretty cool so far; she's not asking stuff like am I rich but just what's my favorite color and crap like that.
I have several AWs as friends (more women friends than men friends at this point in my life) but they are the survivors of a 45 year culling process so they should be pretty cool. They're all married or in long-term relationships and they are all reasonably attractive; I think I would have a hard time being "just friends" with an available, attractive AW who didn't want anything else. And, no matter how "nice" a fat, ugly AW could be, I don't think I could develop a serious friendship with her regardless of availability, etc. Case in point would be my nieces who are nice, intelligent, and grossly overweight; I can't stand to be around them for very long. That's probably a personal weakness on my part. But, what do you expect from a
Dickhead
PurpleNGold
04-30-03, 05:52
Dickhead,
Wow. That you got a woman outside the industry to actually look at the situation objectively and that she actually started to rethink a lifetime of brainwashing is truly amazing.
I think your argument is very solid: "my friend said it's okay, the sex worker is choosing her line of work voluntarily, I feel good and have the money, why not?" Too bad more people won't openly discuss and think about the issue with such logic.
What's your friend's background? Is she very educated? Does she do something for a living that would make her more predisposed to objectivity?
Originally posted by purplengold
What's your friend's background? Is she very educated? Does she do something for a living that would make her more predisposed to objectivity?
She has four years of college but fell a bit short of graduating. First generation college student, blue collar background, comes from a long line of beauticians, half Polish and half Italian, nothing real obvious to make her objective. She worked in catering and then she and her husband (a trained chef) ran a restaurant for a while, then she was a housewife for close to ten years. Now she has a meaningless clerical job (family comes first and doesn't want any stress or responsibility). She is actually not particularly "objective" overall and has such beliefs as the moon landing was fake and was all a government conspiracy. Typical irrational female in many regards. Dyes her hair, wears lots of makeup, insecure about her appearance, all of that.
I always knew she was raised Catholic (so was I), of course, given the ethnicity, and I am pretty good friends with her mom (Polish side) but I never really thought she took her religion seriously until I got to know her a little bit better; they give up stuff for Lent and celebrate Easter and like that. She asks me about being an atheist periodically and I just say "My TV doesn't get that channel." I don't think she grew up as repressed as some.
Thinking about her and some of my other women friends, I think I have gravitated towards the open minded ones and weeded out the rest, especially as my own formal education, informal education, travelling, and mongering have progressed. With the ones who remain, I can be pretty honest and they tend to be more curious than they are judgemental.
Now I did have one sister write me off totally over mongering but my other sister is totally cool with it and thinks I should write a book about it. Win a few, lose a few.
Rubber Nursey
04-30-03, 07:04
I think a lot of it is about giving the issue a human face. Especially for those people who have been told for a lifetime that only a certain "other" type of people, would be/visit a prostitute. When the story comes from a friend - someone they know is not "different" to them - it makes them see things that little more objectively.
My best friend, who I have known all my life, is a Catholic. She has always believed prostitution was immoral, and was vehemently opposed to abortion. When I told her a couple of years ago that I was working in a brothel, she totally accepted it, and it changed her whole opinion of sex for money. If her best friend says it's ok - then it's ok. Then last year she found herself in an awful position, and had to make the decision to have an abortion. It was one of the hardest things she ever had to do - but she did it. And now she realises that it was the right thing for her to do in her circumstance, and that those other women she had always been told were "murderers", were also just doing what they had to do.
In some ways that the essence of the moral dilemma, don't you think? It's simple to stay with a dogmatic perspective as long as things are abstract, but once you're faced with something based in reality, you've got to actually look at it, and up close it can look very different.
And as someone who was also raised in the religion, it's not at all unusual for Catholics to shift their beliefs on various things -- let's face it, when you've got religious teaching that tells you that sex is sinful in any other situation than two married people trying to procreate, including married boinking for pleasure, (which is one of the precepts the prostitution is immoral stuff comes from) then most people are going to come to an "accomodation" of their relationship with such doctrine. And once you do it the first time, why would the rest not be open to question? Look at the church on divorce -- they're adamant that marriages can't end, so people who remarry are considered to be living in sin. I had a friend whose husband divorced her after 20 years, and whose new bride wanted to remarry in the church, so he managed, by dint of substantial financial contribution and over her strenuous objections, to get the marriage annulled -- despite the fact they had two children. (If they'd done that for Henry, there'd be no Anglicans running around!) Until they relocate all those currently sizzling in hell for the sin of eating meat on Friday, Catholics are always going to question such draconian perspectives and inconsistencies.
Dickhead, I think you seized the main battle ground on this question -- the issue of harm. If prostitution causes no harm then there's really no viable argument against it, which is why folks like the prostitutionresearch.org organization go out of their way to paint such blanket pictures of its harmful effects. (And also why advocates do the opposite.)
PosterLion
05-05-03, 01:38
DHead,
I guess it is hard not to confide these things to a woman that is a friend. I did the same thing last week. I told her I was going down to Mexico and she said she wanted to go. Then I told her that I would be glad to take her and she was all over it. After that I told her I would be glad to give her a tour of a Mexican Brothel and to my astonishment she was up for that too. So, I got down here to Nuevo Laredo yesterday and while I was waiting for it to become dark enough that the red lights go on I called her up and told her I was here and about to cross over. we started talking about it and I said, "You know, it is always weird sitting here waiting for it to get dark." She asked why and I told her that I always start asking myself what the hell am I doing this for? She laughed and said, "For some reason that is exactly what I thought you were going to say." Then she told me that I was a good little monger and not to worry about it and go have some fun. Well, that happend. It was a good night. I posted on the Laredo board about it.
Well, then today I went to the bullfights and this poema comes to mind. Now, I will post this because writing this stuff is somewhat of an addiction for me. And, if yall decide that I am waisting bandwidth, just tell me and I won't post anymore of them. It won't be the first time on this board that I have been accused of working for the telecommunications industry and trying to undo the excess supply out there. :)
Besides, like you, I'll tell this to my friend and she will smile and tell me what I want to hear. lol...
ole!
i watched her walk down the
street
holding the hand of her daughter as
a little brown boy lagged
behind
stalling for her attention,
she turned and smiled
come come
i saw the love in her
eye
and saw the real life
passing me by as i think i'm
nothing
but a few bucks for the
occasional wh0re,
she encircles the bit of life
hanging on me as the snake
slips
though the hole,
a door opens
letting the bull in the
ring
snorting and pounding
he thrusts himself upon the
red cape
his life
stabbed through by the
spear
charging until he succumbs
and finally
falling dead,
no longer sweating and
spinning inside
the coliseum.
PosterLion -- so why didn't you take her up on her interest in going with you?
As far as wasting bandwidth, well, nobody's at 300baud anymore, and I always figure it's up to Jackson to determine what is and isn't appropriate. 'Sides, I probably waste more than just about anyone, and far be it from me to say anything about anyone's poetry, since I'm one who indulges as well (though not here.)
Rubber Nursey
05-05-03, 08:28
sorry i haven't been around for a few days. the morality police have excelled themselves this week.
_______________________________________________
the west australian newspaper
taxpayers fund trade tips for prostitutes
by ben harvey and cian manton
wa taxpayers are funding a sex worker training guide that instructs prostitutes on how to profit from the sex trade by giving clients the best sex. the publications, by sex worker support agency phoenix, encourage novice sex workers to try stripteases, talking dirty, lingerie and different sexual positions to keep clients coming back for more.
the pamphlets were produced using part of the $242,000 in annual funding that phoenix receives from the wa health department. the wa government has funded phoenix since 1997. one publication, regulars: how to get them, how to keep them and why you need them, said prostitutes should compliment their clients' sexual techniques. another pamphlet, treating your job like a job, urged prostitutes to start work early so that clients did not see them with "jeans and sneakers on, and no make-up".
health minister bob kucera said he had not seen the material but would be concerned if it fell outside the range of the funding contract, which was aimed at promoting safe sex and preventing the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. the pamphlets briefly mention that repeat clients were less likely to be violent. mr kucera said he had asked the health department to investigate the suitability of the publications.
shadow health minister mike board said the health department had no right to promote the sex industry and funding for suspect publications should stop. wa health department director of population health michael jackson said health authorities often needed to get their hands dirty when dealing with some parts of society - particularly sex workers and drug users. "you want to have a workforce that is more professional, that have more integrity in terms of their mental health, social health and physical health," he said.
phoenix spokeswoman janelle fawkes said the contract between the health department and phoenix required the sex worker support agency to provide information, support and referral that was relevant to the sex industry. "and people who work in the sex industry want information on how to operate in a professional manner. that is, how to operate a safe and successful business, which is what is outlined in the resources you are discussing," she said.
former madam linda watson, who runs prostitution outreach centre linda's house of hope, accused phoenix of being a training school for prostitutes.
___________________________________________________
sex workers' group to be censored
by cian manton and ben harvey
health authorities will vet all publications by sex-worker support agency phoenix after the organisation used taxpayer funds to produce a prostitution training guide. the new system was devised hurriedly after premier geoff gallop yesterday threatened to withdraw government funding because of the dubious nature of some education pamphlets. dr gallop said he was outraged that public money was used to instruct prostitutes on how best to satisfy customers. "their (wa families) outrage is shared by myself and we will make sure it doesn't happen again," dr gallop said. "if we can't be satisfied . . . we will cut back on their funding and, if necessary, cut back on all of their funding."
wa health department director of population health michael jackson said the pamphlets, regulars: how to get them, how to keep them and why you need them and treating your job like a job, had been suspended from distribution. the questionable material cost less than $1000 to produce - a fraction of the $242,000 that phoenix received from the state government, mr jackson said. the health department would review all existing pamphlets produced by phoenix and any new material would be vetted before publication.
shadow health minister mike board said government financing of a sex-worker manual backed an inquiry showing health department funding arrangements were not accountable. a recently tabled report by auditor-general des pearson showed $1.2 million in funding went to aboriginal health services without any documented assessment or contract agreement.
phoenix manager holly hammond said the publications had been taken out of context. "these are just two of many publications that phoenix distributes," she said. "topics covered include sexually transmissible infections, blood-borne viruses, safe sex practices, safety and other information of interest and relevance to sex workers."
the wa health consumers' council supported phoenix, saying working with marginalised communities brought particular challenges in education and information provision. "the very point of having community-based organisations like phoenix is to have peer education at the grass roots," said council executive director michelle kosky.
Rubber Nursey
05-05-03, 08:34
PS. The "training manual", that apparently cost taxpayers so much hard earned money to produce, is a Word document photocopied onto plain A4-sized white paper.
Hi RN,
Amazing articles. Just a few philosophical questions. Aren't SW's of Western Australia also citizens and tax payers??? Aren't SW's of Western Australia also citizens in need of information about disease and exploitation??? Just because a woman is a SW, does that mean that the Australian Constitution is now vacated???
After I read those articles, it seemed that SW's are viewed as non-citizens who are not entitled to information or protection. These articles clearly illustrate the imbedded and intrinsically negative attitudes that John Q. Public has toward SW's. I see what you mean.
Ouch, RN. Unfortunately, that's all too common an occurrence for nonprofits/NGOs -- anybody with an axe to grind can usually ferret out some sort of connection between government dollars and something deemed controversial. And having everything vetted will be a major pain. At least the follow-up article is a bit more balanced.
It's silly, but a lot of times this comes down to the issue of opponents seeing the NGO wanting to lend the weight and authority of the government to what they do (or at least indicate support) even though for many constituencies such support can be seen as a negative instead of positive thing.
The specifics of the situation, in terms of the money involved, really don't matter -- opponents seize on things they deem controversial and make a big loud public connection. I remember that the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis was the center of an uproar a decade ago because $250 of a federal grant was used in partially producing a flier as part of a series they did, where one of those involved was an HIV-positive artist whose performance included ritual scarification. Or you have then NYC mayor Guliani's reaction to the "Sensations" exhibit (before 9/11 when he was viewed by many not as a hero but as a fascist) because a piece included came from an African artist who painted with cow dung and whose work included Christian symbology. (Never mind the tradition of such painting in Africa or elsewhere, or the actual positive and laudatory cultural implications usually attached when using such paint.)
Sounds as though the practical result will be a need to scrutinize accounting practices to avoid giving ammunition in the future. I'm sure it would have been just as simple to have the money for the photocopying and production of the pamphlet come from another pot, which would eliminate such issues.
It also sounds, from the government reaction, as though the climate is likely not one where you can win such a debate at this time, which means Phoenix needs to be careful not to jeopardize its financial position lest it impact other core activities or to allow itself to become a polarizing force people can use to attack the government. If the latter happens funding for good viable health programs will disappear faster than you can imagine, regardless of the actual impact or consequences. That's got nothing to do with the good of the public and everything to do with politics.
In the long run, debates about why such activities should be paid for is the really important battleground, but that's something Phoenix can't safely engage in -- support and argument needs to come from elsewhere.
PosterLion
05-10-03, 00:17
JZ,
Why don't you put your Lit. on here man? Where do you put it? Hell! I'd like to read one sometime! Is it a copyright thing?
Hmmm, point the Aussie taxpayers at this board and save everyone a bunch of dollors?
just a thought, off to the bullfights!
norok!
PosterLion
05-10-03, 00:30
JZ,
I called her when I got to Laredo (she could not go this time because of job and kids) now she tells me she is getting married on Saturday (which is tomorrow in Dallas)!
I know it sounds unbelievable, in a very boring world, but... it is a true story...
Meanwhile, I spoke with the Thai chica that people on other boards are convinced has an angle on me. blah blah blah...
these are the same ones that thought my emails where a waste. :) now, dun get me wrong, they your buds and all... you guys did quite a collaboration with the FAQ section.
well, what to say??? listening to a romanian folk song, "mugur de fluier." it's a song about a gypsy full of life. funny how that is when you are free, eh?
te que vaya bien!
PosterLion: I tend to publish my stuff, so posting it here is tantamount to completely outing myself, and that's a bit farther than I care to go.
If your friend is getting married that pretty well puts the nails in the coffin on that idea. Hard to picture her new hubby going along with the idea of her heading across the border with you for a brothel visit... Too bad, as it would have made a nice tale.
As far as the reactions from the Thai section, well, though I disagree with folks there all the time I do think in general the advice is well-founded and aimed at preserving the financial and emotional well-being of those to whom it's given. While I don't buy the prevailing-wind opinion that people should generally restrict their interactions with TGs to one-shot experiences and move on, I have to admit that I've seen lots of guys get messed up and over in their encounters when they let their hearts get too involved -- or if they think their heart is located in their pants. (Let's keep in mind that there are lots of folks on this board whose overall experiences with women and relationships aren't overly positive, for a variety of reasons, and that can color things. I don't happen to fall into that camp.) One of the things women in the Thai sex scene do is heavily blur the distinction between encounters for hire and boyfriend/girlfriend, in contrast to lots of the discussion and examples you find in this section. That, of course, is one of the attractions of Thailand but it's also one of the dangers, particularly for people who don't take the time to truly understand the nuances of the cultural differences involved and how those affect things, and for those who let their hearts totally run away with them.
There are plenty of folks in that section with whom I don't see eye to eye on things, but I'd still share a beer with them -- you generally learn more from those you disagree with, I think. Heck, Samus Arum/Z and I have gone at it hammer and tong time after time, and still had a very good time when we met in person, and I look forward to doing it again sometime.
(And in truth, the other two guys deserve far, far, far more credit for the FAQ than I do -- I just chimed in with some minor information here and there. They did all the real work.)
PosterLion
05-10-03, 14:45
REAL WORK and other things...
Pii Joe_Zop,
I feel the same about my life, I was lucky and had great mentors. So, I am curious, where do you publish your stuff? I'd like to know because that is what I want to do one day. I would not expect an answer here, but I would be absolutely honored to entertain any advice you might have!
Oh... I was just thinking, I can tell you are a literary man, so I want to advise you on another book from a Thai author, "Chalida."
It is the first novel by Salisa Pinkayan. She writes articles for THE NATION. The novel contains much knowledge. For instance, it has the eye view of many a Thai ridiculousness: saving face, family rigidity, smiling with a lie to hide all those things, PRESENT the happy face to the world... :)
As for me, I wrote something for all us guys tonight, and also (tambien) for Daddy's girl. I am sure you (JZ) remember as you were kind enough to say "nice post." Well, I am a sentimental bastard and I keep her picture in my wallet now. She tells me to go have a girl once in a while. She is very smart so I write this for her, and all you guys that know what I mean...
for the guys
she'll never know
or
understand
just how hard it
is
underneath that
citibank
visa,
or the mastercard
that becomes your
mentor...
a picture
of her lights up
your life
this world is spinning
by
and there
she sits
smiling underneath
all those
things you've never
told her
bright eyes with
teeth
shining
she'd be happy to cut you
off
if she knew you now
so you fork it out
20 40 60 80
closing the deal
you look at her
one
last time
that smile when
your wallet is
closing
thank GOD
she'll be
home
in the morning...
Thanks for the heads-up on "Chalida" -- I'll have to track down a copy. As far as publishing, I do it in a variety of venues, from traditional magazines to online as well as books, depending on what it is I produce (and what level I can get accepted at, as there are various pecking orders and the places where everyone wants to be are naturally tougher to get into, though my work has appeared in some of them.) If you're serious about it, track down "Writers Market/Poets Market" and/or the "International Directory of Little Magazines and Small Presses" as a starting point.
But this is all pretty off-topic, so I don't think we should take it too much further. There are tons of resources online where you can get more information -- best of luck!
Rubber Nursey
05-14-03, 13:01
I miss you guys. :(
Things are just going from bad to worse, here. The attack, originally on Phoenix, has turned into an attack on ALL sex industry advocates. The Government have now resorted to scare tactics, insults and blatant lies. Today's paper...
Kerb crawling on rise: MLA
By Bronwyn Peace
THE number of kerb crawlers in Highgate has increased because of misinformation spread by sex worker advocates, Perth MLA John Hyde has claimed. He said the imminent expiry of police powers to arrest kerb crawlers was another reason street prostitution had increased.
"We are seeing an increase in people from Joondalup and Dalkeith coming down in their cars because they have this impression that it is open slather again," he said.
A sunset clause in the Prostitution Control Act 2000 which lets police search people engaged in the street sex trade expires in July. Mr Hyde said the Legislative Assembly had voted to remove the clause so the laws could continue without an expiry deadline. But there was a risk the Legislative Council would not support the move.
The Government's new Prostitution Control Bill incorporated the Prostitution Control Act 2000's attempts to prohibit street soliciting and kerb crawling but faces defeat after the Greens indicated they would not support the new legislation.
A Highgate-based residents' group has organised a meeting on Thursday night to discuss the passage of the legislation through State Parliament. Forrest Precinct Group chairwoman Shirley Benton said the aim was to win support for the sunset clause to be removed. Greens MLC Giz Watson, Mr Hyde, Vincent Mayor Nick Catania and a police representative would attend.
Residents were experiencing an increase in propositions from kerb crawlers and were concerned police might soon have no powers to act. Mr Hyde said sex worker advocates had spread misinformation about the ability of police to crack down on kerb crawling.
"By attacking the effectiveness of the 2000 Act and the effectiveness of the police, they are sending a clear message to thrill-seekers and sickos in Dalkeith and Joondalup that it is open season in Highgate again," he said.
But Janelle Fawkes, who heads sex worker support group Scarlett Alliance, rejected the allegation, saying sex workers had turned to isolated spots instead of residential areas. "The legislation . . . has simply changed, resulting in many of the workers having to work in more isolated areas which are much less safe," she said.
Thursday's meeting will be at 7pm at the Forrest Park club rooms, Mt Lawley.
Every single thing in this article is a lie. Not lying by omission or manipulation of the facts - but an outright lie. There has been NO increase in street based activity, and the removal of the Sunset Clause in the piece of legislation he is talking about, has already been AGREED TO in Parliament. And as for sex worker advocates encouraging kerb-crawlers (derogatory 'media speak' for clients of street-based workers) to return to the area....WTF????? That is just sheer lunacy.
I have to admit, there are two good things to come out of this mess though. The reason they are reacting in this manner is...
a) Sex worker advocates have been so successful at lobbying Opposition Government politicians, and rallying community support, that the Opposition have decided to block the passage of the Prostitution Control Bill (YAY!!!) and
b) Obviously they believe we are a threat and a force to be reckoned with, or they would not have felt the need to discredit us publicly. If we were still as 'insignificant' as they originally made us out to be, they wouldn't even bother acknowledging us.
Sounds like typical pressure politics around legislative issues. I'd be willing to bet that Mr. Hyde (clearly the source of all the wild assertions) is someone who was a strong advocate of the highly oppressive version of the legislation that's now in trouble, so he's just making political hay and tarring his Opposition brethren as being responsible for problems related to prostitution. By being the mouthpiece for this article, appearing in advance of the residents meeting, he's hoping to get a fired-up and polarized turnout meeting which can raise pressure further. (Let's face it -- few residents want prostitution, even the most best behaved, in their residential areas, any more than they want nightclubs, bars, or anything that are going to need to be explained to their children or increase traffic.) Note that this article doesn't claim these things are true -- it specifically reports them as assertions by the MLA. I'd bet Hyde is a guy who reporters feel is always good for a good juicy quote, and what he gets in return is a pulpit when he wants one.
Is the Opposition going to introduce an alternative piece of legislation? Seems like having a good model on the table is what is needed, so there can be some compromise and movement between the two sides.
And take a breather and come and post here sometimes! We miss you, too.
Rubber Nursey
05-14-03, 15:57
The Opposition is not able to present alternative legislation. They are able to suggest amendments, etc, to the existing draft - but they can't present their own. To tell the truth, that's actually a good thing. In forming an alliance (for want of a better word) with the Liberals, we are actually dancing with the devil. They are absolutely, completely and utterly opposed to prostitution in any form. Their main reason for blocking this Bill is that they do not, under any circumstances, want prostitution "legitimised" ('coz it's so degrading and dangerous and a scourge on society and all that). They are using our facts and figures as ammunition, but the majority of what they have said has been along the lines of the Government needing to protect public morality.
We are really stuck between a rock and a hard place with the two major parties - the Liberals want to send in the police to arrest everyone and then set up Christian refuges and rescue missions to 'rehabilitate' prostitutes, and Labor want to legalise in the hope that the outrageous controls and fear of harsh penalties will eventually result in total abolition. In reality they are almost on the same side, and the only reason we are getting any support at all is because the Opposition are doing what they are paid to do - blindly oppose whatever the current Government proposes, regardless of what it is.
As for John Hyde - the man is a freakin' hypocrite of the very worst kind. You know what he was up to last year? Leading the call to arms to the Gay and Lesbian Lobby, in the fight for Gay and Lesbian law reform. Their whole argument was based on the fact that the Government had no right to legislate what we do with our bodies behind closed doors. That our sexual preferences did not belong in the Criminal Code. And what was he up to a couple of weeks ago, before Liberal tried to block the Prostitution Bill? Stating in the media that more funds needed to be given to the street sex worker outreach agency (which recently lost it's Federal funding and was forced to close). He continually switches sides and his political convictions change depending on who he is trying to impress at that particular moment. And they call ME a wh*re!! LOL
It's just all so fkn depressing...
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 02:54
This attack started on the 1st of May and is still going. There have been many more articles than the ones I've posted here.
OMG...when is it gonna stop....
The West Australian newspaper.
May 22nd
Sex trade dole rort claimed
By Ben Harvey
TAXPAYER-FUNDED sex worker support agency Phoenix has been accused of teaching prostitutes how to claim the dole while earning money working from hotel rooms around Perth.
Health Minister Bob Kucera said he was aware of anecdotal evidence and would contact the Federal Government over the allegations.
Northbridge-based Phoenix said yesterday it gave prostitutes advice on how to claim social security payments as part of the organisation's wider role as a support agency.
But players in WA's sex trade, including former madam turned anti-prostitution campaigner Linda Watson, said Phoenix instructed sex workers on how to hide their income so they could claim the dole.
"From my past experience in this industry, Phoenix was a prime source of education on how to manipulate the system in getting welfare, working in hotels and becoming a more competent performer," said Ms Watson, who runs outreach centre Linda's House of Hope.
"It has been reported that some madams use Phoenix contacts as recruiting depots."
Sex workers who contacted The West Australian claimed Phoenix staff had suggested they work alone from hotel rooms, which many women considered dangerous.
Mr Kucera said the dole-rorting allegations would be investigated as part of a comprehensive audit of the activities of Government funded sex worker support agencies.
"There seems to have been a fundamental shift where they (agency staff) have moved into the politics of dealing with this issue," he said.
A spokeswoman for Phoenix said the agency gave advice to sex workers regardless of where they worked.
"The reality is that many sex workers work part time or are single parents and may therefore be eligible for social security payments like the rest of the community," she said.
Mr Kucera said he would see whether the functions of outsourced sex worker support agencies could be achieved in-house so the Government had better control over spending.
Phoenix and the Sex Worker Outreach Program WA have been under fire after revelations taxpayer funds were used for suspect projects including a prostitution training guide and explicit art which politicians said glamorised drug use and prostitution.
Phoenix receives Government funding worth $242,000 a year. SWOPWA receives annual funding worth about $100,000.
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 03:03
The West Australian newspaper
Letters to the Editor
Keep sex off our streets
I SUPPORT the ban on streetwalking. The present legislation is working and must be kept in place. During the past week, since the police have been back to full strength locally, streetwalking and kerb crawling by threatening drivers has decreased.
I will summarise the conditions we had to endure before the soon-to-expire Prostitution Bill 2000 was introduced:
Blood-filled, uncapped syringes, used condoms, used tampons, faeces-encrusted paper littering our streets and yards.
Kerb crawlers, pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, perverts, women-haters and criminals in our streets 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year.
Harassment of female residents, visitors, schoolgirls and business people by kerb-crawlers.
Prostitutes and clients engaging in sex acts (including intercourse) in public view during daylight hours.
Horrendous, isn't it? Would you want your residential street to go back to this? Yet according to prostitution support workers, we residents are supposed to grin and bear it. At a public meeting in Highgate last week a speaker from a sex-workers' support group had the audacity to suggest that inner-city residents should seek counselling if they are being traumatised by the streetwalkers.
The police have strong powers under the legislation. However, they are certainly not being misused. On the contrary, the police are sometimes instrumental in getting drug-affected girls off the streets, away from a cycle of dangerous streetwalking and back on track.
Residents have to be heard. Believe me, the reality of living with this situation is far more confronting than the thought of it. Why should we be offered "counselling" for something which is preventable?
The local residents, council, precinct groups and the community lobbied for the legislation in 2000. It was the will of the overwhelming majority of the people - part and parcel of the democratic society we live in.
Listen to the sex workers
IT'S bad enough that the Labor Government is willing to put forward legislation that nobody in the community approves of. It's bad enough that submissions made by local authorities, church groups, health professionals and sex worker advocates were ignored by the Police Minister. And it's bad enough that they would introduce legislation to "legitimise" the sex industry, without even asking the sex industry itself for input. But for MLA John Hyde to actually suggest that sex workers - the very men and women whose lives will be put at risk by this legislation - are guilty of spreading misinformation, is an absolute disgrace (report, 14/5).
This Government has consistently lied to the public about the aims of this legislation, by claiming that the main objective is to "improve the health and safety of sex workers". Sex-worker advocates' sole objective is to improve the health and safety of sex workers. So if that was indeed the purpose of the Prostitution Control Bill 2003, why would sex worker activists be vehemently opposing it?
John Hyde and Michelle Roberts have repeatedly referred to this Bill as "decriminalisation", which it is not. They have said that it will protect the health and safety of sex workers, which it will not. They have said it will decrease any negative impact sex work may have on the general public, which it will not. And they have claimed that their Bill has the support of the people of Perth, which they obviously do not. Almost every section of our community is opposed to this Bill, and no amount of childish propaganda is going to change our minds. So stop the lies and do what Western Australians are telling you to do. Is that too much to ask from our political 'representatives'?
Is "dole rorting" the same as "dole bludging"?
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 04:11
Nope. 'Dole bludging' is when you sit on your arse and let the Government support you, without making any attempt to find a job. 'Dole rorting' is when you are on the dole while you ARE working, and you don't tell the Government about your other income.
However, the single parents pension is different to the dole. When you aren't working, the Government will pay you a (rather pitiful) amount to stay at home and look after your kids. But if you ARE working, the pension serves as kind of a 'safety net' in times when you don't quite earn enough on your own. For each dollar you earn from your job, you lose a bit of the pension...and then if you have a period where you don't earn much from your job, your pension is increased to cover it. If you are on a really high income, you don't qualify for the pension at all. But many sex workers - especially those who only work part time - still qualify to claim part of the pension. In those times when they have a break or are off work sick, they can claim the full allowance. (Sex workers don't get sick pay and annual leave!)
The article neglects to say that Phoenix DOES inform sex workers about how to work and claim the dole at the same time, but they tell them how to do it so that they DON'T DO IT WRONG. Phoenix tells them how to declare their income to Centrelink using log books, etc (because they sure as hell don't get pay slips) and how to pay their taxes properly. Centrelink, the ATO and other Government agencies are all linked up, and if you stuff up even the tiniest bit on one of them, you can end up with Social Security Fraud charges. Phoenix tells sex workers how to do it the RIGHT way.
I have absolutely bloody had it with the press and the Government. Lying, low-life fucking bastards ('scuse the French).
Well, it sounds like your government does a better job of providing for temporary unemployment than ours does. No way any prostitutes are getting any dole in our country, at least not based on their income from prostitution. Right now our president wants to give tax cuts to wealthy investors but extended unemployment benefits are going to expire May 31. An unemployed person can collect a maximum of one-third of the money they earned the last year they were working and that is it. And after they earn 1/4 of their unemployment benefit any further earnings reduce the benefit dollar for dollar.
The true measure of any society is how it treats its weakest members, not how great things are for its most powerful.
On the other hand, in my country if you are a prostitute or a drug dealer, you sure as hell don't pay many taxes since we have no VAT and there are even some states (4 out of 50 I believe) that have no type of sales tax at all.
Oh wait a minute, waiters and waitresses do the same thing. Pisses me right off.
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 05:22
"On the other hand, in my country if you are a prostitute or a drug dealer, you sure as hell don't pay many taxes since we have no VAT and there are even some states (4 out of 50 I believe) that have no type of sales tax at all."
I'd say one of the differences is that in the US, prostitution itself is illegal - here it is not. While prostitution may not be respected, or even validated, as a career choice, there is no law that says a person cannot have sex for money. And if you're earning money, the tax department wants it's share. Sex industry businesses even have to charge and pay GST! (Goods and Services Tax - or in our case, the Good Sex Tax. *grin*) Our Tax Department has it rigged so that even illegal earnings are taxed as personal income. Drug dealers, brothel owners and sex workers can tick boxes like 'entertainer' or 'adult services' on their tax forms, so that they don't have to say what their occupation actually is. What amazes me is that a hooker's boyfriend can be charged with living off the earnings of prostitution if his girlfriend pays the rent - but the State and Federal Government's make MILLIONS off wh*re's backs every year, and that's ok.
"I'd say one of the differences is that in the US, prostitution itself is illegal"
Well, yes, Rubbie, I thought that was er um uh kinda obvious. But I do want to point out that my country is actually very enlightened, having set aside three or four bumfuck godforsaken virtually inaccessible butt ugly counties where prostitution is legal. The 46 people who actually live in those counties are truly blessed. Oh wait a minute, no they're not. I doubt it is a coincidence that the few counties in Nevada where prostitution is actually legal (albeit under ridiculous constraints) are all very close to where "they" conduct nuclear experiments and bury the most virulent hazardous waste.
This is alarmingly similar to how we turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants from Méjico and elsewhere, collect 7.65% of their wages to finance our retirement system, and then deny them participation in that retirement system.
Of course that is alarmingly different from how Australia has plenty of room and doesn't want to let anyone in anyway.
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 06:04
Not only do your Government's policies suck in it's own country, but they are currently fucking with ours. I think we should let ALL American's into Australia (we have plenty of bumfuck godforsaken virtually inaccessible butt ugly areas we could send them to ;)) and make them all become Australian citizens, so that your President is left twiddling his thumbs - or anything else he can find to twiddle - with nobody left to listen to his bullshit.
Anyway smarty-pants, what I meant about the act of prostitution not being illegal here, was that Western Australian sex workers would be more likely to pay their taxes because they can't be charged for admitting they are working as prostitutes. Illegal sex workers who were stupid enough to pay taxes in the US, could probably be investigated and then charged for prostitution. Brothels are illegal here, but I think the ATO gets around that with most brothels being registered under dodgy names with dodgy business descriptions.
Now, Rubbie, calm down. We have plenty of stupid illegal sex workers here but none so stupid that they actually pay taxes. We don't have anything as sophisticated as CentreLink here (I do know basically what that is) because our current president doesn't want any government agency with more than three letters. It's too hard for him to remember. If you asked him what he thought about instituting a CentreLink system here I am pretty sure he would think you were talking about a golf course. This is the same political party that brought you the vice president who couldn't spell "potato" and the one that brought you the president who thought ketchup (or catsup) should be a vegetable for nutritional purposes.
Wife Laura Bush, whom I would not fuck with a borrowed dick, today opined that since educational funding will be cut to pay for the tax cut for the wealthy, stay at home moms need to start doing more to help teach their own children to read. That makes perfect sense to me since they are obviously more qualified than well-trained and decently paid public school teachers would be if we still had any of those.
Oh well. Soon I will be in Méjico where the government is corrupt at all levels so more people can participate. Prostitution is illegal, immoral, illegitimate and so forth down there too, but there is a lot more of it. A lot of the prostitutes down there are wives of the men who immigrate to the US and accidentally disremember to return to their families. Now if they just didn't have to make the sign of the cross before they had sex with you the "morality of prostitution" issue wouldn't be so glaring.
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 07:00
Your president needs a good-sized "new-cu-lar" bomb, right up his "axis of evil".
Anyway, back to hookers "rorting" the dole - I would like to comment that....
a) if the Government refuses to allow "taxpayers" money to go to sex worker agencies to protect the safety and health of sex workers, then I propose that sex workers should cease paying tax immediately.
b) does the Government not realise that if they ever did manage to abolish prostitution completely, there would be 3000 MORE single Mums no longer working as hookers who will then be living on the sole parent pension,
c) if the Government is so worried about social security fraud in the industry, why doesn't it change the law that says that sex workers are not allowed to financially support their partners? Do they realise that even if a sex worker was to earn over $100, 000 a year, her unemployed partner is forced BY LAW to claim the dole?
Actually, there are a fair number of prostitutes here who pay taxes -- especially the higher-end ones such as porn stars turning tricks on the side, and they'd damned well better, because lots of times it's far easier to go after them for nonpayment of taxes than it is for prostitution. (Some recent fairly high-profile folks have been in trouble exactly for this.) Same kind of logic that's been used with gangsters -- if you can't absolutely prove they're doing something illegal, you can still track the money.
RN, so who is Linda Watson and what did Phoenix do to her?
For what it's worth, I'd hardly be crazy about streetwalkers in my neighborhood -- I've lived in places where that was the situation and it's lousy for the the area, and lots of my female friends truly did have to put up with a lot of unnecessary crap -- but to complain about and restrict that and not offer viable alternatives is certainly bullshit. If you're offering your services in any other business, you generally can't just hang out on the street wherever you please and flag down passerby. People don't simply get to set up vegetable stands wherever they like either -- there are street vendor restrictions and guidelines in most places, and areas specifically set aside for such activities. The problem, of course, is that setting aside an area specifically for SWs is likely to raise an even bigger stink than not doing it.
And as far as Georgie and Laura, sigh, I can only look at them as catalysts for forcing the left the get its act together, though it's taking an abysmally long time and shows no real sign of happening.
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 15:41
Linda Watson worked as a hooker over 20 years ago, then bought a brothel and made shitloads of money off other women's backs for many years, made herself a hell of a lot of enemies (back in the days of police 'containment', where to survive in the biz you needed to have friends in very low places - like in the police force, for example), and then suddenly found God and became the most irritating anti-prostitution campaigner on the face of the earth.
What did Phoenix do to her? Nothing at all. As far as I'm aware, she had already left the industry before Phoenix even began. (Her quote in the article below is complete bullshit). Why is she doing this? Well - she runs a "prostitutes rescue mission" which is funded by the Church. She WANTS it to be funded by the State Government. Motive becoming clearer now?
Add to that the fact that one of the proposed legislation's objectives is to "deter people from becoming prostitutes and to assist prostitutes to exit prostitution", and her little rescue mission is suddenly of great importance to the State Government. Phoenix and SWOPWA, on the other hand, do NOT provide the type of services that the creators of abolitionist legislation have in mind. These 'scandals' being circulated about the sex worker orgs seem to serve a dual purpose - discredit them while the Bill goes through Parliament so the Opposition will be reluctant to be seen siding with them, and set up a good excuse to close them down once the Bill is passed.
JZ, I'd be interested in seeing any numbers you have for what % of hookers pay income tax here. My guess is <5% report anything at all, and 95% of those who do report (porn stars is probably a good example but I would think they are very few in number; porn's not my thing) income report way less than they actually make (just like waiters and bartenders and pizza deliverers and and and - tipping really sucks).
Rub, do you mean that the 100k hooker's unemployed partner is "forced by law" to claim the dole so as not to be charged for living off her/his earnings? What if he/she has his/her own savings or family money?
Sometimes here they make you claim one form of dole in lieu of or to be eligible for another form of dole, but by and large they're plenty happy when you don't claim benefits to which you are entitled.
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 16:23
"The problem, of course, is that setting aside an area specifically for SWs is likely to raise an even bigger stink than not doing it."
The biggest obstacle is that street work is illegal. That being the case, council by-laws, planning laws, health codes, etc are pretty much impossible to create (because you can't create guidelines or regulations for an illegal activity). When they create tolerance zones, they may 'override' the local laws at council/police discretion, BUT the original laws remain in place. While those laws are there, the Vocal Minority will always fight to have them enforced. The creation of NEW laws is also resisted strongly, because you are then creating laws to ALLOW street sex work.
That's why I so badly want to see Sydney's model introduced in WA. Rather than saying "street work is a crime but we are going to ALLOW you to work in this spot", NSW law says "We don't care what you choose to do with your body, but you are NOT to solicit near a school, residential home, church....". It looks to the community like police are "protecting" them from prostitution by keeping the workers away from residential areas, but to the workers, the Government is giving them complete freedom to work in the sex industry without fear of prosecution - just not in certain places. It's a win/win situation.
Sometimes it feels like New South Wales is a whole other country...
Rubber Nursey
05-22-03, 16:29
"Rub, do you mean that the 100k hooker's unemployed partner is "forced by law" to claim the dole so as not to be charged for living off her/his earnings? What if he/she has his/her own savings or family money?"
He is classed as living off the earnings if he has "no visible means of support". I would presume that if he was independently wealthy he wouldn't fit into that category - but if I was him, I would want to be able to account for every single cent of my savings. To me, a rich guy sitting on his backside while his wife works in the sex industry is probably a prime candidate for a "pimping" allegation. (As pathetic as that is...)
Re NSW vs. WA: You would notice the same thing in my country. The southeast is very conservative and yes a bit backwards. The northeast is very ethnically oriented, highly unionized, people dress more formally. The center of the country (the plains states) is very conservative but better educated than the southeast and less backwards. The southwest is very informal and has a bit of a libertarian bent (gun rights, anti-government sentiment, etc.). The northwest tends to be socially liberal (more tolerant of the homeless, as an example). Then there are the huge states of Alaska, California, and Texas. The latter two especially are very different even in different parts within the same state.
I like that aspect because it sort of gives you many different "mini-countries" from which to choose, but the problem is they all have the same president.
BUCK FUSH!!
DH, I agree entirely that there are tons of prostitutes, most likely the vast, vast majority, who don't pay or radically underpay taxes, same as happens with lots of folks who get paid primarily in cash. Naturally, stats are hard to come by, since even if a prostitute is properly paying taxes she's not defining the income as such. Still, I've read a several interviews with escorts (and also talked to a couple) who talk about being very careful about taxes since it's a way for them to have trouble that is probably far greater than being busted on a prostitution beef. Again, these aren't streetwalkers, but women who've generally got some degree of business acumen. Keep in mind that tax evasion is part of what originally was used to send Heidi Fleiss to prison.
My favorite hoot, by the way, is that Nevada has been considering a tax on each sex act a legal prostitute there performs, falling under the proposed 7.3% tax on entertainment and admissions (snigger!) I can just picture each brothel room in Nevada being equipped with a calculator... rather the ultimate literal sin tax.
RN, since this issue is one that comes up repeatedly, do you have any idea of what percentage of prostitutes' partners actually are unemployed and unable to find work? The whole issue seems like a tempest in a teapot -- is there some reason (other than the truth of accusations of pimping) why this rate should be substantially higher than the general unemployment rate, which is Oz is, what, six or seven percent? This just seems like a massive focus on a truly minor issue, from a statistical perspective, though I know it's really more a philosophical battleground than anything else.
As far as Linda Watson -- seems it's always amazingly easier to find religion when you end up with a fat bank account, doesn't it? Nothing like being born again so you can not only make more money off your repentance but try to weasel your way into "respectable" society.
PosterLion
05-22-03, 20:00
Yeah,
I never paid taxes for my earnings in college. I took it upon myself to supply our football heros with all the illicit (and illegal) substances they required to help them get through the tough life of being a jock. Hey, some of those guys even made the pros! I had to pay for univeristy somehow... as my scholarship was for tution only. :)
Rubber Nursey
05-23-03, 02:27
Joe,
" This just seems like a massive focus on a truly minor issue, from a statistical perspective, though I know it's really more a philosophical battleground than anything else."
Yes and no. There are a lot of different aspects to the tax/Centrelink and the sex industry debate... 'living off the earnings' is only one of them. And some of them are costing taxpayers - or WILL cost, if the Government has it's way - hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
It would be hard to find out actual rates of unemployed partners claiming the dole, for the same reasons it's difficult to find out how many sex workers are/aren't paying tax (they don't declare their occupation on tax forms). But I personally know of quite a few scenarios where sex workers partners are being forced to do it. I know two women whose husbands are disabled - one is a paraplegic from a mining accident a couple of years ago, the other brain damaged in a car accident - who are on disability pensions because their wives can't legally support them. I know many, many women whose husbands/partners have been temporarily unemployed, for a few months or so, who had to claim the dole whilst they looked for work. A really common one I know of, is the brothel owners - almost all of our brothel owners are female and a majority of them are married. As with any 'family business', the husbands often have a full-time job taking care of property maintenance, accounting, etc, but they are not allowed to be officially employed by their wives. They are also not allowed to live off their wife's income at home.
One of the nastiest ones is around sex workers' adult children. Once her son turns 18 he is considered an adult, and if his mother's income comes from sex work - then he is supposed to find himself a job or go on the dole. So what happens if the 18 year old is in university? Is he supposed to pay for all of his uni fees and text books, as well as his accomodation and living expenses, all from the part-time job he does in between classes?
There's lots of other things that bother me about the tax thing -
* Sex workers have to pay taxes, but have a hell of a time claiming deductions for their work expenses (because condoms, lube, makeup, lingerie, etc "could be for personal use").
* Brothel owners are constantly suspected of tax fraud and are audited practically every three seconds - and yet they get none of the usual tax benefits that legal businesses get, they are still targeted by police and harassed and often when businesses go up for sale, the police and councils use it as a chance to shut them down and the owners walk away with nothing.
* The overwhelming majority of Perth workers are single parents, who are trying to make something better for themselves and their children. By cracking down on sex work, the Government and police are going to force these women to go back to their houses and sit on the sole parent pension! Surely it's better to be out there earning a decent wage, regardless of how you are earning it, than unnecessarily draining the public purse.
* And from this recent media debacle, I get furious that the Government wants to shut down sex worker orgs because they are "wasting taxpayers money" on supporting sex workers, when those very workers are paying millions in taxes every year. That is just plain insulting.
I guess to a certain degree my argument can be seen as a largely philosophical, but these problems ARE costing heaps of money that could be much better used on health and roads and schools and all the other things that people desperately want fixed. If the public a) realised how much money is wasted by police 'monitoring' sex workers, b) knew how much dole money was being wasted because of draconian pimping laws, c) had any idea just how many tax dollars the industry injects into this State every year, and d) realised how much money the State will LOSE if the legalisation Bill goes through...they may just change their opinions about sex industry law reform.
'Scuse the rant. I am in a bloody foul mood lately. :)
Rubber Nursey
05-23-03, 02:30
PS. "My favorite hoot, by the way, is that Nevada has been considering a tax on each sex act a legal prostitute there performs, falling under the proposed 7.3% tax on entertainment and admissions (snigger!) I can just picture each brothel room in Nevada being equipped with a calculator... rather the ultimate literal sin tax."
Sex workers and brothels here pay a 10% Goods and Services Tax on every sex transaction, in addition to their personal income tax.
OK, RN, but 10% is simple to figure, even for the math challenged. 7.3% simply doesn't spring to the brain quite as freely -- let's see, what's 7.3% of $350? I can do it easily enough, but still...
And while I can certainly understand paraplegic's partners going to work and them being unemployed, the rest of the scenarios seem to me to be more straw men than anything else. Is there actually a real case where an 18-year-old university student is arrested for living off the earnings of a prostitute by going to college? I absolutely doubt that -- the government would be foolish to make such a case, even if it were theoretically winnable, because they would not only lose the battle of public opinion (oh, gee, let's keep a socially challenged kid from bettering himself) but likely an ensuing court battle as well. You appear to be saying that the situation is more dire when you're talking about prostitutes -- are you saying that 10% of partners have this problem? 20%? You may have a point about brothel owners and their husbands, but frankly, that seems off the point, as there we're talking about the degree to which acting as a panderer is viable -- still seems different from the situation of a sex worker in such a brothel and her husband. Surely the husband of a prostitute doesn't spend all his time supporting her business interests.
Rubber Nursey
05-23-03, 08:09
I'm not saying that all these cases ARE necessarily prosecuted, especially in the case of the 18 year old son, for example - just that the laws ALLOW for them to be prosecuted. (And why have laws on the books that aren't being used, anyway?)
"You may have a point about brothel owners and their husbands, but frankly, that seems off the point, as there we're talking about the degree to which acting as a panderer is viable"
With the brothel owners husbands, it's not so much a matter of them being accused of 'pandering' - it's solely the living off the earnings factor and it is usually used as a means of harassment. It's used in the same way for private workers. As an example, to work 'legally' in WA, you have to work from your own home. Police are allowed to enter without a warrant, search the place and demand information. Let's say they search the house and discover the girl has a man living with her. Police have the authority to demand information about him and their joint finances, and if he happens to be temporarily unemployed (or 'employed' as her driver or security), they will threaten to charge him with living off the earnings. Would they actually charge him? Probably not - but they use it as a scare tactic to either stop the girl from working, or force her to work somewhere else (usually when neighbours have complained). If workers don't know their rights, they may just fall for it. But if they do know their rights...that guy will get straight down to the dole office and sign up.
I guess my point is that the living off the earnings laws are a violation of civil rights, as well as a burden on taxpayers. People quite often find themselves unemployed here and there, at least for a short time, and these people shouldn't have to go on the dole if their wife is able to support the family on her income. And why shouldn't a sex worker be allowed to do what she wants with her legal, taxable income anyway?? It seems bizarre to me that it's legal to earn the money, but it's not legal to spend it on anyone. It's been pointed out many times in Parliament that landlords, taxi drivers, grocery stores and anyone else who receives a sex worker's money, could be seen to be in violation of those laws. (As is the tax department!!) There are enough coercion, sex slavery and sexual assault laws to deal with men who are legitimately "pimping" their wives. Living off the earnings laws are completely unnecessary, and unworkable.
As for actual percentages...I would have absolutely no idea on what the real numbers would be. My educated guess? I'd say at least 60% of sex workers here have partners (married or defacto), and that at least 20% or 30% of those partners would be claiming the dole. That is because many partners are actually 'employed' by their girlfriends as drivers, bookkeepers and security guards. It's a lucrative industry for many - why shouldn't a couple be allowed to make it a 'family business' and work together? It's also safer that way for private workers. A large number of others would have been unemployed at some stage in the relationship, surely. People find themselves 'between jobs' all the time.
Points well taken -- but this still seems to me a rather flashpoint issue, in terms of pushing people's hot buttons, making it difficult to win the point, and thereby retarding winning some of the other sides of the equation. People, as has been apparent in discussions here regarding pimps, have particularly strong opinions and emotions regarding men exploiting women in this regard, and this issue treads that line. While you characterize these laws as interfering with the civil liberties of sex workers, the opposition paints it as protecting people from unscrupulous predators, and, frankly, theirs is the more emotionally dramatic picture, regardless of right or wrong. (Obviously, the battleground isn't simply for the correct moral position, but for gaining popular support and translating that into action.) Since, as you define the numbers, this is an issue that affects about 12% of workers, isn't this a secondary issue to some of the others? Especially if it's something on the books that's threatened often but never really used?
Given all this, how would you draw a that would define "pimping" as an offense to protect sex workers from predatory exploitation yet wouldn't get into the areas we've been talking about? Or wouldn't you? (I think it's an issue not simply of what ought to be, but of what might need to be in order to have a realistic chance of moving other sides of the equation forward.) I always love that quote by Bismarck -- "Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made." A lot of what we've been talking about in your situation is exactly that.
And there are tons of laws on the books that serve no purpose and are never enforced, no question about that. We could easily do a whole thread on some of the more idiotic ones. But if they have no practical effect because they're not enforced, aren't there more important things to push against? Despite police threats (which come in a million flavors and don't always mean much) if these offenses aren't actually going to be prosecuted -- and I have a very hard time seeing, for example, how some domestic partner whose temporarily out of work and get fed by his sex worker wife is realistically going to get tried -- then the laws don't have much practical effect. Enforcement is every bit as important as legislation -- there are laws passed all the time as cynical political exercises that don't mean a damn thing, because they're never going to be enforced.
Although I prefer the Costa Rican model, I don't think the Méjico model is bad either. Keep in mind that each state in Méjico also has its own laws and I believe there are 33 different states (plus the Distrito Federal aka Mexico City which is like the ACT except it has more people than all of Oz!), of which I've mongered in maybe 8. Their approach is to have "zones of tolerance" which also fall short of legality. Some of these are just certain streets while others such as in Nuevo Laredo in Nuevo León state are walled compounds. This isolates it somewhat from the good conservative Catholic folk.
But of course there is far more corruption in Méjico than in Oz. Instead of having laws on the books that are rarely enforced, the police just make up laws on an ad hoc basis. You are guilty until proven innocent with no right to jury trial (Napoleonic Code) which is the bad side. The good side is that you can normally pay your "fine" (read: bribe) on the spot without the inconvenience of going to court.
I am slowly making me way down there now. Should arrive in Guadlajara in the state of Jalisco on Tuesday. There I am told the scene is mostly massage parlors or "esteticas." Sold my car and some of my furniture and my house is under contract to hopefully sell June 30. Then it is off to Buenos Aires where nobody really seems concerned about the Morality of Prostitution. Due to the weakening of the dollar blow jobs in Morón have gone from $3 to $4 but I think I can struggle through.
Best of luck, DH! Are you getting enough from the equity from the house to give you a bit of a cushion?
Good point about the plus/minus aspect of the Napoleonic code -- it's pretty much the norm in most of the third world, whether actually in force of not, which means that in essence the police (invariably underpaid and looking for methods to overcome that) define the law as their pocketbooks see fit. Fine, I suppose, when it's fairly under control, but when it gets to be too much it's just like anywhere someone's bleeding you just because they can.
Interesting question: whether or not it's better to be in a place with restrictions but clear parameters or one with flexible rules that are affected by who you happen to be dealing with and what you can pay. Kind of the classic lure of the frontier...
If I pay off my student loans and other debts, I'll clear $50k which I think I will put in the least risky securities I can think of, most likely Series I savings bonds. Those are portable and can't be liquidated for a year. Then the 4.5 months of work when spread over 12 months will give me about $1500 a month after tax (and figuring $1000 for RT airfare) for the 7.5 months I'm not working. I think I can live pretty well on that in BA if I hold myself to one hooker per week. But if I can't, I can return early and collect a pretty decent unemployment check. Worst, worst, worst case scenario would be 6 months here and 6 there, I think. That's without dipping into the $50k and plus I'd still be putting about $1800 a year in my retirement plan (mandatory) and maintaining my US health insurance (minimal).
You only live once, and you only die once, and I choose to live until I die.
I'm halfway to Méjico right now.
DH,
Wow, those are major, major changes in your life. I had no idea that you were contemplating such a "sea change." I can only wish you the best and I greatly admire your guts and vision. Whereas I only sit here at my laptop contemplating such changes, you're actually going ahead and doing it. My compliments!
When my daughter finally graduates and I can get out from under her fearsome tuition payments ($27,000 this year alone), I'll hopefully follow in your foosteps - literally.
Keep in touch and let us know how you're doing in Mexico and BA.
I don't think it's that big of a change, all things considered. I've had summers off for a long time. I haven't had enough work in the spring for a long time. I've been taking 2 or 3 trips of 1-3 weeks a year for 6 or 7 years. Now I'm just gonna go to a different country or two every year for a longer period of time. I bet I can even do it for less money if I put my mind to it. And why does a single guy need a whole house in the suburbs? I'm not burning any bridges at my job. I've got half a dozen friends I'll miss but really, I only actually see them once a month and e-mail and international phone calls are cheap. We'll stay in touch, and I'll be back 90% for sure in the fall and 75% for sure in 2004. All bets are off after that, though.
I can stay two months in an apartment and cook my own meals for what it costs to stay a week in a hotel and eat in restaurants, and I don't have to worry about security guards and bullshit rules, and I can cook better than 90% of the professional cooks out there.
Right now I am at my friend's house outside Albuquerque. He is going to drive me to the border tomorrow. He's been in bed since 9 PM and it's Saturday night. He has put on thirty pounds since he got married two and a half years ago. His wife is bitchy and smokes like a chimney. Their house is a total disgusting mess, she can't cook, and she doesn't work outside the house except for boarding some horses and selling some produce and stuff from the garden. He is killing himself supporting her two kids and their baby and he tells me that he would never pay for sex. Everybody pays for it one way or another; it's all prostitution.
He will fuck the same woman once a week (if he is lucky) for the next x number of years while I will fuck a different, younger, better looking woman once a week and not have to put up with any bullshit plus have my amigovia whenever I want for as long as it works for both of us. He says I am crazy to work for the salary that I work for. He makes three times as much as I do and has nothing left at the end of the month, and is putting nothing away for retirement. Yup, I'm crazy.
Now $27,000 a year in tuition, that is crazy. Send her to public school.
DH,
Geez, that's really depressing about your friend in New Mexico. I have several friends who are in the same predicament. As bad as it is now for your friend, can you imagine what the next 5-10 years will be like for him??? Now, that's really depressing - not to mention scary.
Yes, $27,000 is crazy and that's only tuition. There's also room and board, books, the lease on her car, etc. Hey, but I love her dearly and she appreciates it.
Best of luck in Mexico. I hope that you find what you're looking for.
Stranger99
06-08-03, 04:34
Dickhead,
I haven't written here in ages but I regularly read your posts as they add a smile on my face and make me wish that there were more people like you around.
Just wanted to wish you good luck.
S99
Had a good time in Guadalajara where you can get reamed steamed and dry cleaned for $40 which seems eminently moral to me. Now I'm in Puerto Vallarta but I'm out of action until my ATM cards arrive by FedEX (I knew I had forgotten something). Being down to your last 50 pesos in cash (less than five bucks) in Mexico is a disconcerting feeling to say the least although credit cards are FAIRLY widely accepted. They are NOT, however, accepted by hookers and I think that is highly immoral.
Hmm, I think the immoral part would be the non-cash surcharge said workers would no doubt attach to credit card payments :)
Interesting thing on travelling like that -- I've had a couple of times in other countries without money -- once when my bank just decided to switch ATM cards without warning while I was overseas and once when folks who were scheduled to give me a substantial bit of money simply didn't come through. Argues for maintaining some degree of financial flexibility, doesn't it? One reason I try to keep a small stash of traveler's checks with me, in case my cards get lifted or screwed up.
Travelers' checks are a pain in the ass in Mexico because they won't cash them without ID which defeats the purpose. But, I found an American Express office which gave me beaucoup cash at an exorbitant fee so I am in pursuit of prostitution again.
Understood -- that's why I just use 'em as a backup. But if your passport's gone so you can't cash them then you've got more trouble than a forgotten ATM card :) (A reason also why I've always got photocopies of that stashed hither and yon.)
Good to hear you're back on the prowl!
Samus Aran
06-22-03, 04:40
This is not a section I normally write to. But, a recent news report about the sex scene in Australia shown on Thai television has prompted me to ask a few questions. Now, SA is not a big advocate for having relationships with prostitutes as so many men who come to Thailand do. To me that is not what hos are for. They are simply for relief. But, that is not what SA wants to talk about. The reporter did a good job showing the areas of Melbourne where sex workers, pimps etc all operate. They even interviewed some pros and such. The last lady who the interviewer talked to was some type of lobbyist for sex workers. Ok that didnt bother me. The part that bothered me is that she said 90% of the men who go to sex workers are lonely people. Is this true? Are these men so hard up for affection that they feel that a bj, hump, etc from some ho is going to improve their existence? After all, these men should be paying these hos for an orgasm and for their pleasure. It is plain and simple. Whether it is to come into their mouths, or on their tits, etc... when you visit a ho it is strictly for a physical release. In other words, a paid orgasm. IAre Aussies this depressed? I normally can do a better job myself than any sex worker can provide. Are men in Australia that lonely that the hos in Australia feel that these men visit them because they feel sorry for them and want to try and curb the mans longing for affection while at the same time draining their wallets? Lets not forget that when you hand over cash to a women who you just screwed she is a pro. she is not a friend. This is not like tipping in a restaurant. Pros are paid to have sex with you and lie. That is their proffession. I feel sorry for men who have to rely on 45 minute session with a prostitute to try and feel important and loved. Truly sad. SA has no problem with men who want to visit a ho. But, guys lets stick to the facts that the prostitute really could care less about you. She just wants the cash and will lie to get more of it. Keep it all business with any ho. Get invovled in charitable things to improve your lives and emotionally state. There is nobody on this earth that will be able to persuade SA that a session with a prostitute is going to make your life better emotionally. You would get more satisfaction taking dance lessons, taking an art class, etc. At least here you will meet people with similar interests and you would be doing something more rewarding with your life than humping a prostitute who is lying to you anyways!
I hope Aussie men are really not that bad as the reporter stated.
Samus Aran
James D 2004
06-29-03, 08:03
SA, I don't think you don't know yourself enough. You are saying that you are not lonely, and that you use prostitutes for pure relief. You had better do some self analysis, or else I'll do it for you.
90% lonely clients - sounds right. If you have female friends or wife that is close enough for sex, you are not lonely.
SA, I don't see what someone being a professional and not necessarily caring about you as a person has to do with easing loneliness. Loneliness is the sense of being isolated or separated from the rest of the world, and it's well documented that a lack of physical contact helps heighten it, and this is true regardless of the sexual aspects involved. It's why there can be such despair in hospices and homes for the elderly, and it's why physical contact has become part of the equation in many such situations. The sense that a nurse or attendant in that situation cares about you can have as much reality as that of a sex worker -- they're just doing their job.
The endorphins released into the bloodstream during orgasm not only tend to act as a kind of morphine, they tend to promote the sense of closeness between sexual partners. That -- not the belief that a sex worker cares about you -- is what helps on the loneliness front. Massage, for example, also releases endorphins (though not the precise same ones) and so touch itself has side-effects. Physical closeness, regardless of emotional attachment, has a function in creating a sense of intimacy that onanism does not. You've repeated your mantra about your hand being better than many prostitutes, but putting your hand on yourself is a different sensation than putting your hand on a woman, and has different effects beyond orgasm. Visual stimulation, smell and sound, stroking a woman's skin, etc., are all left out of your whacking off sessions, and the former are expressions not only of sex, but of a general sense of sexuality. That's not even including other things such as a sense of anticipation, discovery, etc., and the heightening of excitement that come from those, all of which become part of the experience and also mirror traditional relationships. If you're getting the same experience of those when jerking off, you're definitely the exception as opposed to the rule.
I tend to think of interacting with prostitutes kind of like the internet -- both have lowered barriers that allow, say, shy people to open up safely or be the gregarious folks they wish they could be, lonely people to connect with someone else, people who want controlled meaningless stimulation to get it, etc. In general, both allow us to become Samus Aran or any other video game character, go on a series of adventures and experience vicarious emotions, and then step back into our real worlds without harm.
Do I care whether or not an actress believes she is the person she's playing, or whether that actress is genuinely heartbroken when her onscreen/onstage lover is killed? Not in the least -- I get the same rush as long as I've suspended my sense of disbelief. That's what happens here: it's like going to a movie or reading a book in that you give yourself over to the experience, go through it fully engaged, and after it's over you return to your world but with some subtle after-effects.
Having sex with someone who's a non-prostitute can certainly ease loneliness -- even if it's a one-night stand, so why shouldn't sex with prostitutes have the same effect?
James D 2004
06-30-03, 04:24
DH, I almost missed your story. Good luck to selling your house. History showed that it could take some 10 years to get back to the current price. On the other hand, as in recent few years, you can keep on drawing home equity and pay for the mortgage, while your net worth goes up.
Public vs private school. I think your friend have the common genetic insecurity. He think he didn't pass on a great brain or a great body to his offspring's. So one way to avoid a difficult life, you know how difficult it can get, is to give as good a start as possible. Don't save enough for your own retirement is trivial compared to the entire life of the child. If the child do well since pre-school, you may even be able to skip saving for college. But that sort of money is over the top, if you don't know that you can afford it long term. Parents don't understand that it's just as difficult for the child changing from a free public school into an expensive private school, and vice versa!
I agree with you about women, everybody has a price, paying for sex everytime, occasional gifts, or the so called 'long term meal ticket'. But I hope your plans for not committing are temporary. May be in a week, or several years, you will find that physical needs, no matter how hot the girls are, cannot totally replace emotional needs. You need someone that will love you for what you are, not how much you worth.
I hope that your plan of living cheap down there is also temporary. Bettering yourself is like rowing up river. If you don't keep rowing forward, you will be carried backward. It's tough but there's no better place on earth to better yourself than where you are. Yes, you can have 'attractive' women for a lot less. But going upmarket is a side effect when you try to better yourself. Women are attracted to successful men. Either you make a lot of money, or you unemployment check worth a lot in some countries. Who does you want to be? With all that time, I would think about what business I can go into. What other countries in the world would allow you to deduct your expenses even if you make a loss for the 1st 2 years? And do you want to keep that job that pay only several months of the year?
I'm always an under achiever. I took the science route instead of the medical route. It's boring and why I need that much money? I'm dirt poor in high school and I'm OK with it. I tended to attract future model or porn star types. I know what they are after but I turned them down because to be successful will be hard work. I also attracted rich girls who always tell me stories about her rich friend's husbands. Basically they are very unhappy and lucky if they can find someone to marry who want an easy life but treat them good enough. That's sad and I had better things to do than marrying her. When I accepted the offer to relocate, I just hit any girl I fancy on the street during lunch time. I wouldn't do it otherwise, it's a small town. I didn't know I'm that attractive there. The relocation agent made some excuse and asked me to follow her to her car in the underground parking lot.
I do have a point. Try not to look back. Pussies here are about the most expensive in the world. If they cost a few times more, try to make up for it. If you succeed you can try the next level, say porn stars or import models. Maybe try someone long term. Make sure that you make enough for a divorce if you want to marry. With modern medical advances you can have a long active life ahead of you.
James D 2004
07-02-03, 04:54
A somewhat current trafficking report
http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/global/traffic/report/homepage.htm#contents
VilunyaChert
07-03-03, 12:25
Lots of interesting stuff in this news item.
-----
Olympic city aims to license its brothels
Church and feminists furious at Athens mayor's
plan for influx of tourists in 2004
Helena Smith in Athens
Thursday July 3, 2003
The Guardian
The city council in Athens was yesterday embroiled in a row with
the Greek Orthodox church over plans to license brothels to cope
with an expected influx of tourists during next year's Olympic
Games.
The Greek capital's new mayor, Dora Bakoyianni, has come up
against the fierce opposition of leading clerics in her attempt
to "bring law and order" to the profession. Her campaign to
register 230 brothels was denounced by the church's Holy Synod,
which said the proposal was nothing short of an insult.
Even worse, it would "convey the impression that the country's
largest municipality was showing an untoward interest in sex
tourism", the church's governing board, fumed. Just when the eyes
of the world would be fixed on the city of the gods, local
officials were talking about turning it into a "huge bordello".
"This decision constitutes an insult to the city of Athens and
will only satisfy the gangs of procurers that carry out the
unchecked traffic in young foreign women."
Last night a group of Icelandic feminists also stepped into the
fray, denouncing "proposals [that go against] the spirit of the
Olympic games".
"The proposals by Athens officials are in total contrast to the
spirit of the Olympic games which advocates health, peace, sexual
equality and co-operation," said Kirstin Astgeirsdottir, a
spokeswoman for the Icelandic Feminist Association.
But Athens' municipality was unwavering yesterday: it was going
to tackle the problem head on, a spokesman told the Guardian.
Prostitutes may be legal in Greece, enjoying perks that include
retirement benefits, but in the capital at least almost none
bother to register with local authorities. With just 13 months to
go before the Olympics come home, the problem has turned into a
headache for officials now keen to clean up Athens' act.
"We can't take an ostrich-like approach to this," said the
capital's deputy mayor, Ira Valsamaki. "We have a law that
permits brothels and prostitutes to work under licence, which
would be foolish to oppose given the social nature of this
matter, but it is never enforced. With the games coming up
solutions have to be found, and found quickly. "
Untoward interest
Short of an answer, city officials say they fear foreigners may
well end up "having sex behind bushes or in the streets".
An estimated 10,000 sex workers packed the streets, strip clubs
and bars of Sydney for the 2000 Olympics where they are reported
to have had as many as 150,000 clients per day. Already, many are
believed to have booked tickets to Athens.
But under Greek law, sexual services can only be dispensed in
licensed brothels - which must not be located within a 200 metre
radius of a church, school, youth centre or hospital. In theory,
brothels can only employ three people working an eight-hour shift
per day. Mayor Bakoyianni wants 230 brothels to be properly
licensed, amounting to 690 prostitutes in total.
Ms Valsamaki said: "All we have said is that we want to bring
some order by getting the owners of brothels to register their
establishments and clients."
"We have to face the reality that people get very excited during
the Olympics and they're going to have certain demands," said one
city administrator.
"Our hope is that we can come to some agreement with hotels that
will allow them to be satisfied."
Supply and demand
o Prostitution is legal in Greece, but in Athens hardly any
brothels register for licences, although they are supposed to.
o Up to 6,000 fulltime prostitutes may be working in the city.
Athens' municipality wants 230 brothels to operate in the city
centre and surrounding suburbs. This would give the city about
690 registered prostitutes.
o Registered prostitutes undergo regular health checks and pay
social security even if they operate from unlicensed
establishments.
o An estimated 10,000 sex workers were needed to cope with
demand during the last Olympics in Sydney.
I think it is somewhat immoral that RN left the forum without saying goodbye. I miss her. RN, if you still lurk, I hope you are OK and I wish you would check in.
DH
Agreed.
I think I've been going through RN withdrawl or something.
Try going through RN withdrawal and Argentina withdrawal and weed withdrawal at the same time. Talk about a Jones! Gotta get this monkey off my back somehow.
"Work is the curse of the drinking class." - Oscar Wilde
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