The Morality of Prostitution

[Joe Zop]

Uhh, ok, I guess that clarifies everything.

Except perhaps why your caps lock key is stuck.

[Freeler]

"the semantically ridiculous."

All we have to do is look at the InternetSecurity section to see what that phrase means.

To me Jackson's ban is clear.

[Daddy Lows]

Gettingtang,

Did you listen to Art Bell on Coast-to-Coast recently? Last two weekends ago he interviewed a former member of Interpol who was assigned to a covert black-ops subdivision whose one purpose was to find child pornographers and anyone related to that specific business and terminate them. I remember one quote from his interview saying that on some occasions he would catch the perpetrators in the act of denigrating children as young as 18 months old and that he said, "There was this look on their faces. I don't what else to describe it as pure evil." Also, he mentioned that though he meted out the ultimate punishment to these demented individuals, he also suffered from the killings because after so many deaths, the bloodthirst got to him and he was ashamed that sometimes, he enjoyed torturing the perps for information. It kind of reminds me of that one old phrase from antiquity: Who watches the watchers?

Peace

BTW, if there are two consenting adults having sex, I don't see any problems with morality. Sex, though biologically a procreational device, is also physiological. Damn it, it feels good. What's wrong with that? Must we suffer on Earth during life before we suffer afterwards in death, too?

[GettingTang]

Daddy Lows,
You're correct! The guest you reffer to was a memeber of the Arc Angles.
People, lighten up! If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.

TANG!

[GettingTang]

I have a suggestion for all you mongers in. How about cleaning up your acts, settling down and finding a nice women to marry. If you're already married, how about jump starting your sex lives with the little ole lady? It's much nicer and safer. Of course you will need to get screened for all the nasty little STDs before doing this.

Seriously, I will not judge others on this forum, but if you step back from the game for a while and seriously take a look at yourselves, you will realize how wrong this game is. It's addicting, impure and morally corrupt. Not to mention, in one way or another it will catch up to you, at some point in your life.

When you see the working girls out on the streets, you should feel sorry for them, think about what got them there. These girls have no future, probably were molested as children and have addiction problems. I know their out there offering up sex for $, but it's still wrong to take advantage of them. Yes, I said take advantage. Look at the women of Thailand, some of these ladies are sweet as can be and us westerners with a few extra dollars go over and demand disgusting sex with girls half your age for the price you pay for a dinner out in the USA. It's wrong. Taking advantage of anyone, no matter what circumstance got them to resorting to prostitution, it still does not make it right!

How about offering some of these girls some help, see if they would be willing to get into drug rehab if they have a drug addiction, see if they need psychological help if they were beaten or molested as children. I would reccomend trying it for once. Helping these girls out can truthfully become equally as addicting as the sex. Remember they are people too. They all were born into this world just like you and I, they all had mother's and fathers, some have children, brothers and sisters. When you look at a homeless person, do you ever think, "I wonder how that person got to be where they are? Same concept for working girls. They were never offered a fair shake in like 9 times out of 10. And for God's sake, if you must engage in prostiution, do it respectfully. And remember to ask yourself.......would my mother be proud of me, if she saw me doing this? I highly doubt it. So to sum it all up, try offering someone a helping hand sometime, in any manor you can. You might find it much more rewarding then some cheap BJ. you might even find it rewarding!

PS. To the great administer of this site. I believe I am still fully meeting your posting guidelines, I'm offering info and contacts, also, mixing in a little of my personal points of view on the side. As I have and still do respect your site, I sure hope you'll respect my rights to throw in a little extra in my posting style.

Formerly GETTINGTANG~!

[Dickhead]

"It's addicting, impure and morally corrupt"

And those are only three of the things I like about it.

[Travis Bickle 2]

gettingtang, i seriously hope that jackson doesn't kick you off this board because you do provide and interesting and informative counterpoint.

i would like to ask if god is leading you to help save the lives of the men of this board and lead us out of lives of bebauchery. is this something you've prayed about and seeked counsel with your pastor? otherwise, i believe your time as a new christian would probably be better spent reading the bible and learning all you can about christianity.

for example you would learn that god loves ****s and instead of hoping that god has no mercy upon their souls, you should be praying for their repentance so that they will inherit the kingdom of heaven with you.

i personally disagree with this but having been raised in a christian home that is the teaching of the bible.

as far as helping prostitutes: great! i've been there and done that. the problem is that they usually see us as "marks" and pretend to be trying to get clean and sober and all the while stealing from you and bleeding you dry. you will always hear "i will go into rehab next week" "i'm really sick, i need some drugs to tide me over until i get to rehab" etc. tomorrow never comes. i remember going to this one gal's home and meeting her mother who told me i was about the twentieth guy attempting to save her. she said next week after half the stuff in my house ends up missing she'll be there with guy # 21.

the best thing you can do if you want to help these women is to donate time or money to one of the numerous agencies that help them. i know of several in seattle alone. there is even a table set up on friday and saturday nights in the middle of the stroll where a sw can go and be taken off the streets away from her pimp; into a safe house; offered drug and alcohol treatment; counseling; schooling; etc. basically a completely new way of life is hers for the asking. most of the sw's just laugh it off and walk away with a handful of condoms. the basic rule of anyone with a lifestyle or drug addiction problem: they have to want to get help.

also, there numerous agencies that help victimized kids; help take ****s off the streets, wsg charities is great. you are obviously fairly well-off tang. you are well traveled, have spent probably hundreds of thousands on the hobby. there is a lot you can do. do it!

but i really have to wonder if your pastor is really telling you to spend your first days as a renewed christian on a pornographic web site reading about our conquests and trying to stamp out the world's oldest profession. good luck!

there's better places for you to spend your time. find them!

civ2000

p. s. jackson -- my understanding is that a little religious messaging is okay in response to a post, particularly on this particular thread. i hope i didn't cross any lines and if so i won't do it again.

[Joe Zop]

GT, your words would carry a lot more weight if YOU had actually done anything you're advocating as opposed to simply preaching on the wings of a movie hangover. Please let us know when you are happily married and have rescued a couple of working ladies from the street. You say "Helping these girls out can truthfully become equally as addicting as the sex." Are you speaking from personal experience? Can you provide a couple of examples of how you've changed some of these ladies' lives for the better? If not, how about practicing a bit more before you preach?

I'm happy you've found a moral code that works for you, but your code is not my code. I do not believe prostitution is essentially immoral, and as a non-Christian I find that Christian judgements on the morality of others are usually laughable. I deal with adults who make the choices that adults make, and I treat them like any other people I am with, giving them respect and treating them well. The fact that sex happens to be involved in the transaction makes no real difference -- I don't "take advantage" of shop workers, waiters/waitresses, street vendors, repair people, sex workers or anyone else who uses their body to do work. If I feel I'm dealing with someone who is being coerced, who is there because of an addiction or personal problem, etc., then I'm simply not going to be involved in P4P with them. Whether I go the extra step and try to get involved in their personal life and help them depends on the situation, but I've certainly done it at times in all of these instances.

To quote you, in a post made six months or so ago, "LE will all try and paint this pitty picture about how the poor working girl is totally being taken advantage of. In many cases this might be true, but is equally as many, it is not! Many indoor providers, truly do enjoy their trade! They aqctually like meeting new men and enjoying sexual experiences with them. I ask you again, when done discretly and in a manor where no person gets hurt, is this a crime?"

[Dickhead]

Seems like a few people have been hitting the Jim Jones Kool-Aid again. Religion is a tool of the ruling class.

[PurpleNGold]

GT,

You think Jesus would've bothered helping Mary Magdalene if she wasn't sucking his dick on the side? Why do you think he liked hanging with pros?

Seriously though, you gotta lighten up. Like JZ said, go out and live your life as an example. Show us heathen ne'er-do-wells how we should act instead of just ranting at us, which you should see, is not going to do any good whatsoever. In that case, even if you never convert a single person to your cause, at least, if you live the game you're talking, you'll do some real good (according to your own sermonizing).

[Pokey]

Right on GT! Some of these guys act like "Vampires" I guess making suggestings to them is like showing them the cross. they can't handle it, its buring they're eyes!

We as mongers are exploiting sex workers, especially if we are going to 3rd world countries to do it, and paying them the equivalent to less them $10 in our currency.Most Prostitutes lead a dimal life, althought I guess a very few, lead a happy and rich life, but thats less them 5%, the rest don't make much money and a lot of them resort to drugs to help them cope.( I know that RN disagrees on this point, but why does she spend so much time helping ex hookers?)

I guess some good comes out of prostitution, most of the girls I'm with send money back home. Sometimes its the only money the family has to live on.

I want to one day want to clean up my act and quit mongering, but today is not that day. In fact I was planing on taking a trip across the border tommorow, Easter Sunday, but changed my mine, because Mexico is a Catholic country, and yes even if lot of the girls are Prostitutes, they are still Catholics. I can respect that, and GT too.

[PurpleNGold]

It's laughable that 2 senior members with a combined >400 posts between them want get all sanctimonious about how wrong it is to utilize the services of prostitutes.

Pokey, burning eyes from reading GT's post? More like pissing my pants because I'm laughing so hard. I don't see anything wrong with exchanging money for sex. The actual amount exchanged is irrelevant.

What I'd like to know: How is a woman selling her pussy/mouth/ass any different than a longshoreman selling his arms/back/legs? The psychological argument has no realy statistics to back it up. Any studies that say this kind of crap are skewed in favor of the pricks that try to use them to brow beat with.

You're going to clean up your act at some point in the nebulous future? Why not do it now? Stop reading this board and go live the life you think is right. Until you at least hobble the walk, shitting the talk just raises a nasty stench.

[Travis Bickle 2]

Tang, Here is a suggestion for you. In Phoenix where you now live they have a couple of dozen sexual addiction meetings. Go and find a young man who is struggling with picking up hookers, be his friend, mentor him, and help him turn his life around. Give him the benefit of all your experience.

You'd be helping someone who wants and needs it; you'd have one less man "victimizing prostitutes"; and you'd be walking the walk instead of just talk.

Of course, it's so much more fun to come in here and look at nude pictures and tell everyone what a changed man you are.

Civ2000

[King Arthur]

GT, et. al:

You're just feeling righteous at the moment. Anybody who grew up within a Judeo-Chrsitian environment might feel that way occassionally.

Do you feel mongers exploit sex workers? The tables can be turned and its the sex workers exploiting us for our money. Sometimes we get ripped off buying drinks and getting no play.

The girls may lie and create stories about mommy needing surgery to extract a sucker monger's hard-earned dineros. A girl even said she loved me after meeting for less than one hour. What bullshit designed to take more of my money!

In response to Pokey, most girls in Tijuana do not use drugs. In contrast, many sex workers in US use drugs.

JZ, I help girls out a bit occassionally if I feel she's nice. Altruism is a different higher order type of fulfillment versus basic sex, and I feel the two cannot really be compared. I do like to try to encourage girls to think about the future, the longevity of their current profession, and the need to develop other skills.

[Dickhead]

The only difference between a hooker selling her pussy and a longshoreman selling his body is that fucking is a hell of a lot easier.

You think prostitution is wrong, don't fuck prostitutes. You think homosexuality is wrong, don't fuck anyone of the same sex. You think communism is wrong, don't be a communist. But don't preach your moral bullshit to me.

Well, I'm off to shove some more rocks in front of the cave.

[Pokey]

Let me get back on my high horse for a minute. I left something very important out for some of you living upside down in "caves".

Most people care very little about others, so lets talk about how dangerous mongering is to us. You can die from catching AIDS, or get some other terrible disease. Traveling to foreign countries to get pussy, is risky, you could end up in jail, robbed or beaten.
Yes, those girls will use sad stories to get money from you, or worst won't give you a good sexual experience. Mongering is addicting, although the DMV-IV doesn't use the term sexual addict, the behavior is universally well known to clinicians.( I would go out on a limb here and say people who post frequently here 500 and above, have a high percentage rate of being addicted to sex and/or are preoccupied with sex and it might interfear with your life, or for sure your wallet.)

To say there is no difference between a longshoreman and hooker is laughable. Can you see the Hooker at a social gathering when asked what she does for a living, say "Im a Hooker", can you picture the reaction and hard-ons'! Can the Hooker go to the bank and fill out loan papers for a house, and put down she is a hooker, and bring out her tax returns to prove it? There is a stigma attached to be a Hooker, and it take a high toll on both the Monger and the Hooker.

Ok, I'll get off my high horse now. If you want to monger, well have fun. The excitement and pleasure is almost worth it.

KA, drug use in TJ is rampant among Bargirls, places like Chicago Club, Playboy Club, etc. You don't see it like in the States with Street walkers, but its there. There is even a current report that talks about it in the Tijuana section. If you want a really good session, offer the girl drugs, she will follow you right up, and offer you anything you want. But if you get caugh by those TJ cops, it will cost you a lot of money you get out that bad situation, or you might end up in a Mexican jail for a long time. Hey, I said this business is dangerous!

[PurpleNGold]

Pokey,

Let's kick your ass off that high horse since it certainly doesn't belong there:




All quotes originally posted by Pokey
I left something very important out for some of you living upside down in "caves".

What the fuck does this mean? Are we bats now? I don't think you have the sophistication to be implying that we are vampires, so you must just have mixed a metaphor inside your obviously fucked up head.



so lets talk about how dangerous mongering is to us. You can die from catching AIDS, or get some other terrible disease.

This is not even a remotely unique condition of mongering, so it is not even a remotely valid point. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that mongering is safer: Since the illusion of a clean woman doesn't really exist, monger's tend to practice safe sex more than say the guy fucking his wife after the wife just fucked the mailman who's fucked...


Traveling to foreign countries to get pussy, is risky, you could end up in jail, robbed or beaten.
Shit, this can't happen locally? Also, not even a remotely unique concern of mongering, therefore not even a remotely valid point.


Yes, those girls will use sad stories to get money from you, or worst won't give you a good sexual experience.
Again, not even a remotely unique concern of mongering, therefore not even a remotely valid point. Same logic as applied to the bit about catching nasties here as well. You think your girlfriend/wife doesn't extract tons of shit from you with tears, sob stories and false promises of a bj 'later'?


Mongering is addicting, although the DMV-IV doesn't use the term sexual addict, the behavior is universally well known to clinicians.( I would go out on a limb here and say people who post frequently here 500 and above, have a high percentage rate of being addicted to sex and/or are preoccupied with sex and it might interfear with your life, or for sure your wallet.)
Again, not even a remotely unique concern of mongering, therefore not even a remotely valid point (this is becoming a broken record). People get addicted to all sorts of things. Are you going to give up drinking? Give up golf? Give up whatever? And, at least being addicted to sex is a pro-species addiction :)


To say there is no difference because a longshoreman and hooker is laughable.
I think you meant between, not because. It is absolutely not a laughable comparison. Every example you gave trying to make it seem laughable was an example of the effect of the stigma to which you referred, not of any real, physical difference. My question was 'What's the difference?' not 'What are the effects of the imaginary difference?'


The excitement and pleasure is almost worth it.
So, you think you are wasting your time and money when you go out and fuck ho's? Why do you do it then? Oh, I get it, you're just a poor addict, right?

[Dickhead]

I have travelled to 30 countries on 5 continents and mongered in most of them and I have never gotten beaten up, robbed, or jailed while mongering. I have been mongering for over 30 years and the only STD I ever got was the clap from a supposed girlfriend. Wrap the sausage and you won't get anything unless you choose to eat pussy and that is just a risk I choose to take, similar to riding my motorcycle and drinking booze.

All forms of work are exploitation of the working class by the rentier class so why should prostitution be free of exploitation? Perhaps when the revolution comes and we achieve a fair distribution of wealth prostitution will die out but I highly doubt it.

[PurpleNGold]

Dickhead,

After the revolution, there will just be that many more horny motherfuckers that can afford to pay ladies for services. There will be just as many ladies who realize that, as you said, fucking is easier and more fun than other physical labor.

[Pokey]

DH, There is always a first time. "Viva Revolution"!

PurpleNGold," Astonishing and Unique".

[Dickhead]

Actually if the revolution goes as planned, there will be more guys who can afford to monger. Also since the innate morality of prostitution will be clearly recognized, and since it will be explicitly legal, supply should increase and with the need to pay protection and bribes removed, price will clearly drop.

However, some blood will flow through the streets during the process. Can't be helped.

[CBGBConnisur]

Actually, dickhead, in many parts of the world outside of the USA, regular everyday guys get some high quality poontang. I've seen it all over the world, where you see ordinary Joes getting jiggy with some rather hot women. I one time visited this resort in the Mediterranean and saw thousands of gorgeous European women hooking up with the local guys who were often poor hotel staff, waiters, janitors, bus drivers, etc. You'll never see that happen with American women, they place too much emphasis on status and wealth.

[Dickhead]

That is OK since I am no longer living in America and have no plans to return. But that is another section ....

[Smut Villain]

Greetings,

I've been monitoring this discussion on and off for a little while, and I have to say that you guys described my situation with %100 accuracy. I was living in northwestern Mexico for about 5 years, and it seemed like I was dating someone new every couple of weeks. Hooking up with females was _never_ a problem!

But when I made a work-related move to the southeastern U.S., I suddenly went from "Don Juan" to "No One". I've heard the saying that the foreign women were just after American money, but these American women are actually a lot _worse_!!!! They expect a lot from their men without having to offer a lot in return. Then, when they hit 30 (and their marketability starts taking a downward spiral), they expect some poor schmuck to pick up the tab for their "damaged goods". Now that I think about it, that's probably why they are in such a rush to get married by then.

I could say that this is the price for living with women in Western society (considering how modern Feminism has further fucked up the playing field), but I've also been to Australia, and their women aren't half as screwed up.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

[CBGBConnisur]

Smut, I live in Australia, and half as bad is an understatement, Aussie women love sex and see no bad in it, also you have to consider the fact that thousands of gorgeous mail order brides come into Australia every year they even developed a Visa for this called an Eros Visa, I'm not kidding about this. The attitude towards sex in Australia is really liberal, I remember this woman who managed a brothel her saying is " I would always feed a hungry man Filet Mignon not Hamburger." You'll never see this attitude in Nevada where they wil give you hamburger for the price of filet mignon. There is also a brothel that has stock listed on the Australian exchange, this doesn't happen even in places like Holland and Brazil.

[Dickhead]

Which brothel is listed on the stock exchange? What's the ticker symbol?

[Scorpio33]

"The Daily Planet Limited", listed on the Australian Stock Exchange. Ticker symbol: DPL. Share price at time of this posting is (appropriately enough) $0.69.

[Pokey]

DH, I was thinking about the coming revolution you talk about, and concluded it won't be any good for Mongers. I share you're view about the rentier class exploitation of the working class, including working girls. I wanted to know what you are going to replace it with? A Socialistic or Libertarian type of Government?

I still think the Capitalistic/Economic system of Government still works best as an incentive to get workers to work hard, and have a dream of one day becoming successful, even if it is a dream to some. The carrot and stick appoach works good as well.

After this so-called revolution; I just picture automobiles like they have in Cuba, or lazy European workers, with stong unions, not working hard, because they are not scared of the "stick".

But, worst of all; I picture sex workers looking like Russian women, who could careless about customer service, because she is secure in her job, and because there won't be any incentive for her to work hard.( don't touch there, no BBJ or DATY, because of the rules)

I believe competition is good with a less restrictive government is better if you want good service from a working girl. A case in point is in Australia. Threre the women have competition and according to the post I read around here, treat their men good.( like that fellow at the party where the girl lifts her dress showing her pussy, and says Welcome to Australia-something like that.)

In Australia the competition comes from Gay men. They have the Gay Marde Gras, very big party in Sydney, and the country won destination of the year in "Out & About" magazine. The women also have strong competition from "Sheep", hey, no wonder the women give good service.

DH, regarding the brothel stock. I believe the company is "Daily Planet" the symbol is NPL.AX, some penny stock. The company started out well, at 50 cents, went to $2.50, but currently trading now at 69 cents.

You don't want to get me started about penny stocks. I usually hate the things.

[Dickhead]

It'll be like the short-lived Spanish Republic (in its revolutionary phase prior to the outbreak of civil war, and particularly as seen in Catalunia). A classless society with no ranks or titles and minimal income differences. Wealth will have been forcibly redistributed and I as leader will probably allow a maximum ratio of 2 or 3 to 1 between the highest incomes for the scarcest and most complex skills such as doctors (lawyers will not be needed and will be ruthlessly slaughtered) and the least complex skills such as janitors. Hookers will earn nearer to the top wage than the bottom wage, not because they have scarce skills but merely to ensure an adequate supply for the good of all. Private property will be allowed but inherited wealth will not (use it or lose it). Marriage will be abolished. There will be no professional sports teams, only local club sports. My government will not control the means of production except in the case of natural monopolies. The revolution will not destroy the production infrastructure unless the elites follow a scorched earth policy; rather, it will be redistributed on the basis of merit. It will be unnecessary to redistribute productive capacity based on need since I will already have equally redistributed wealth. Anyone who can't make a go of it with their share of the wealth will unfortunately be allowed to perish. However in succeeding generations, heavy investment in education and intellectual capital will be aimed at training even the least intelligent citizens to have some viable job skills.

Then after my death we can hold free elections but the main tenets will be written into a constitution, also to take effect only upon my death, and only alterable by another revolution.

I figure Argentina's a good place to start. It's pretty much total chaos down there anyway and there's plenty of hookers.

Note to Argentinean immigration authorities: Kidding!

PS: I was in Sydney for the I believe it was 2001 Gay Olympics and thought it was a real hoot, at least as a spectator sport, though perhaps not as fun as Junkanoo.

[Lombardi II]

To paraphase Tina Turner, what's morality got to do with it?

I struggled with that question for months, and finally concluded that prostitution as I have experienced it is no more or less moral than any other business. My experience is limited to a handful of sessions with one independent provider who has proven to be honest, trustworthy and reliable. These are qualities that I look for in anyone with whom I do business regardless of the product or service that is being sold. The provider that I speak of is clean (does not use drugs), hygenic and by her own admission "spoiled" as a child. In other words, she has chosen this path. According to her, the money is good and the work can be dangerous at times (taking on new clients, for instance) but is easy. Am I naive to take her at her word? It would be easy for me to imagine that she was abused early in life, or that she suffers from some type of mental illness, but by all indications that is simply not the case.

I do not understand the stigma that is often associated with prostitution. Fortunately, I have never been exposed to the "dark side" of the business by virtue of my lack of experience. I am sure that many women are exploited by this business, but from talking with other mongers and from reading member reports on the WSG forums it would seem that for every woman who is coerced into prostituting herself, there is a woman who chooses to do so. For every pro who feels oppressed, there is one who views her job as a pleasure instead of a plight. Is it naive to think this way? Is this just a rationalization?

In my opinion, the title of this forum implies that prostitution is, in fact, immoral. My perception is that many of our regular contributors feel guilty about their participation in the trade and post here in an effort to placate themselves (no offense, guys). I have felt that way, and it is probably what drew me to this forum.

The source of the guilt? I know that it is not rational (I have not done anything "wrong" nor anything to feel badly about), so my best guess is that it stems from either guilt/shame about sexuality in general or from some insecurity about my own sexuality. I have often deferred to the provider when asked what I want to do with my time. I suppose that there is something intimidating about a woman who has sex with so damn many partners!

It would be interesting to know how many of us were raised in a religious environment (I was). I wonder how much of a factor that is.

[Cash Works]

Dickhead,

Unfortunately, I think the only people who will profit from your revolution, in a mongering sense, will be the folks from outside your country, who are going there for the purpose of mongering. If the girls are nearer the top wage than the bottom wage, then none of the locals would be able to afford them - not even yourself, since you would also have to be in that same wage scale.

Pokey,

I have a few comments on the following quote from your post from a few days ago.

"To say there is no difference between a longshoreman and hooker is laughable. Can you see the Hooker at a social gathering when asked what she does for a living, say "Im a Hooker", can you picture the reaction and hard-ons'! Can the Hooker go to the bank and fill out loan papers for a house, and put down she is a hooker, and bring out her tax returns to prove it? There is a stigma attached to be a Hooker, and it take a high toll on both the Monger and the Hooker."

1. I used to work in Oil Exploration, while I've never been embarassed by it, I have been in numerous "social gatherings" where, once some of the other people found out that I actually worked for a living and that I would actually get dirty occasionally at my job, they tried to make me feel embarrassed about it (we're talking snobs who inherited everything and if employed, they owe their position to nepotism) - I'm sure the Longshoreman would have been in the same predicament as I.

I've also been in "social gatherings" where hookers or ex-hookers were present and they wound up being the center of attention of a non-mongering crowd - these folks (men and women) were fascinated by the women, once they found out about their professional lives, they were even more captivated. Obviously, this wouldn't happen in every situation, but it does happen.

2. The first hooker I ever actually had sex with (she actually gave me a freebie because I had been nice to her and helped her out - it wasn't until after the sex that I found out that she was a hooker). It was in New Orleans (1983 or 1984), she had come travelled from California to work at the World Fair/Expo. She was an independent (no pimps or madammes), said she didn't do drugs or drink and hooked entirely for the money, but she said that sometimes, she also enjoyed the sex. She also claimed that she had been investing her money & planned on starting a business that wasn't sex-work related once she had enough cash flow from her investments to support her.

While she wasn't the typical hooker, I would have to say that if she wasn't able to pay cash for her house, she'd be able to find a way to convince the bank to loan her the money. She was very business minded and actually seemed fairly intelligent.

CW

[Dickhead]

After the revolution there will be no more countries, just one world.

[Pokey]

lombardi ii, with all due respect, i think you need to fuck more then one "independent provider", before you can form a good opinion on working girls. there are a wide range of prostitutes, from low wage street hooker $20 or less, to high price hookers, $1000 and up. i think most mongers on this board have had experience with more then 100 girls. ( i lost count years ago)

cash works, same thing, i don't know how many hooker's you been with, but this one sounds special. i think she is one of the worst kind. she is like a drug dealer, she gave you a freebee the first time, got you hooked, then made you pay all other times.

i'm sorry those "snobs" looked down they're nose at you, but how many lucky people are around who don't have to work for a living?( most people hang with people from their race and income level) i agree with you about the hooker being the center of attention, but more like a freak show.

if you read about 8 pages down from this post, i did post something regarding that there were a few, "self actualizing" prostitutes, that would make maslow happy, but feft there were the exception.

hey, look at even the most successful hookers' on film. julie roberts in "pretty women", she was almost kicked out of that nice 5 star hotel, for being a pro. richard gere's character didn't take her seriously till the end of the movie. jason alexander, slapped her, and tried to [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) her. they never did have a pretty women ii, i think the writers couldn't come up with a happy ending is the reason why there was never a "pretty women ii."

[Pokey]

I think DH revolution is interesting and I do like parts of it. But, I feel without a good 'Moral" code of something like Religion or other spiritually rituals like "Zen" that his "Utopia" will quickly enter a downward spriral into decadence like Sodom and Gomorrah.

I think DH is living this fantasy somewhere on a small scale, with women all over him. Since I'm talking movies, he reminds me of the Marlon Brando character in " Apocalypse now" where he was living in a jungle with followers. I think someone needs to get a boat and go after DH and deliver the ultimate sanction, before its too late.

[Lizzard King]

I am sure this question has been asked before but I will go for it anyway.

The question is that prostitution is sex for money, correct?

What if it is a barter arrangement and no money ever changes hands. Say I am a tax preparer and I do a prostitutes taxes for sexual favors. Is that Prostitution. This is just hypothetical but it crossed my mind. I don't see it as being illegal as no money ever changes hand. just one had washes the other.

LK

[Dickhead]

Since I am living on a military base, I would say bring it ON! This will no doubt be the last time in my life I have this type of firepower to protect me.

After the revolution there will be no more fucking religion, that's for damn sure. Religion is a tool of the ruling class, and since there will be no ruling class, religion will merely be a quaint anachronism.

[Smut Villain]

Quote by Pokey:

"I think DH revolution is interesting and I do like parts of it. But, I feel without a good 'Moral" code of something like Religion or other spiritually rituals like "Zen" that his "Utopia" will quickly enter a downward spriral into decadence like Sodom and Gomorrah."

Hey Pokey, you ever watch MTV or BET? We already have religion, and our society is headed towards decadence anyway.

I agree with you 100% that we would need some sort of moral code, but for a different reason: something like "common law" (for example) would keep us from (unnecessarily) fucking each other over (e.g. taking shit that isn't yours, killing someone who doesn't deserve it, etc.)

Obeying a common set of morals like these wouldn't create some sort of utopia (that would be impossible anyway), but they would make the new world a lot more livable.

[Cash Works]

Pokey,

She was a one time thing. I met her shortly after checking into my hotel, she was in the lobby looking like she was about to cry & I (being the nobel gentleman that I am) asked her if she needed some help. Allegedly somebody had stolen the money out of her purse (typical hard luck hooker story? As I said below, when I first met her, I didn't know she was a pro). I was heading to dinner, so offered to feed her. We seemed to hit it off during dinner, she wound up spending the night with me (for free), I headed for the airport in the morning & I guess she headed back to work.

As for the snobs, they make me laugh. Without the money that they have only by virtue of their parentage, they have nothing. The point I was trying to make is that there area a-holes in every crowd & some crowds are nothing but a-holes. People everywhere, especially here in the USA, are too quick to judge others - Are all hookers bad people? I don't think so, some are, some aren't - I can say that truthfully, because I've actually met a lot of them. Here in the land of the free, however, most people believe that all hookers are bad people because "the way they make their living is evil!"

Number of hookers I've veen with? No idea. I lived in Brasil for two years, been to Thailand 4 times, spent nearly a year in The Netherlands, and the list goes on - care to hazard a guess? Number of hookers I've been with in the USA? I'd have to say less than 20, but that's a guess - I've spent most of the last 20 years outside the USA.

CW

[GettingTang]

Hypocrite no more!

In the past 12 days here is what I have accomplished.
I now am volunteering two nights per week at a mandatory drug clinic. Many of the clients are prostitutes. I did my first night internship there last night. I can see many people I will be helping in the near future. I have a background from my college days in Psychology, so I was a shoe in the for the volunteer position. I can tell you in my orientation that lasted 6 hours some pretty scary stuff. I'll be brief and cover some key points you all might be interested in.

I was told by my supervisor that as many as 40%, at any given time of the patients at this clinic are HIV+ at any given time as many as 55% of the known prostitutes are HIV+ and as many as 25% are co-infected with HIV and Hep C. I was also told that most carry some sort of STD, most all are infected with herpes viruses. We were told this brief part of our orientation due to the fact that it seems MANY of the clients will offer sexual favors for preferential treatment or favors. We were told these stats to asses the risk of choosing to engage in such an unethical practice! HIV is real, are you all real with yourselves?

I must remind you, these are the same girls who are out there, doing you guys nightly! They reside in every city across this country! Have you had an HIV test lately? Might want to get one!

I also joined a sex addiction association having struggled with the urge to pay for sex again a few times. Yes, I avoided, keeping my promise to myself to do it no more. But I'm not too prideful to realize I will need some assistance to keep myself from doing so again. I honestly never thought I was addicted to paying for sex. Go to one of these meetings and you soon realize just how far gone you are. Many of you right here on this board will spend the better part of the remainder of your lives, seeking out multiple sexual encounters, that will never leave you fully gratified past the brief moment your in. this causes you to further seek out another quick fix. Contrary to popular belief, sex and love can go hand in hand. I plan to set my life up that way. I plan to find one woman to have a long term relationship with and yes have as much passionate sex as possible with her and only her. I'm a long way from that, but I know going the route I was would have lead to nothing!

So all in all, you guys can't call me a hypocrite anymore. Another thing, I have judged nobody on this forum! Not a one, I'm not so naive to admit I was one of you all just a few weeks ago. I'm not better then anyone here, I've just decided to change, that's all.

I truly think it's a sad existence, maybe that is just me and my opinion, but hey, I feel better about myself.

[Sinanju Master]

Dude, while setting foot upon your newfound path in Life, just how can you be sure this dream woman you're intent on finding isn't HIV+ HERSELF? Do you expect ANYONE you meet in Life to be upfront and HONEST with you 100%? I'm not bashing you. but it DOES seem as if YOU are passively brow-beating others by extolling your own chosen path. It's good that you've decided to find a purpose in Life that will help others, but you seem to be a passive example of the Christian and Muslim missionaries of centuries past. Now they LITERALLY browbeat people! You got your message across, now take the car keys and head to your new job.

Sinanju Master

[Dickhead]

GT writes: "Go to one of these meetings and you soon realize just how far gone you are."

He then writes: "I have judged nobody on this forum!"

He then writes: "So all in all, you guys can't call me a hypocrite anymore."

What a fucking hypocrite.

[PurpleNGold]

Originally posted by GettingTang
Many of you right here on this board will spend the better part of the remainder of your lives, seeking out multiple sexual encounters, that will never leave you fully gratified past the brief moment your in. this causes you to further seek out another quick fix. Contrary to popular belief, sex and love can go hand in hand. I plan to set my life up that way. I plan to find one woman to have a long term relationship with and yes have as much passionate sex as possible with her and only her.


If this is what you believe will make you happy, have at it. However, you might want to do some research on human behavior. For many years now, it has been clear that the male/female bonding you are referring to is a biological contrivance developed due to the need for infants to have a mother and father as caregiver and protector in the first five years of their lives. After about 5 years, most marriages will fail because, physiologicaly and psychologically, human's are designed to have multiple partners (especially men).

Anyway, you can try to live your life the way you are professing, but my guess is that you will be back mongering soon. No matter how much society has tried to alter your biological programming, you are still just a bunch of flesh surrounding your hormones.

Good luck, see you in a few months.

[Sporadic]

Nothing worse than a born again fill-in-the-blank.

[Joe Zop]

I wish you the best of luck, GT, and bravo for your involvement in such programs. It sounds as though you feel you're turning your life around from a bad place, which is great for you.

But I'd like to point out that there is not some sort of either/or equation between being a monger and being a good and caring citizen. I've been heavily involved in volunteer work for thirty years, everything from manning suicide hotlines to working in places such as the one you describe to being part of the decision-making and fundraising efforts of national groups, in every capacity from ground level volunteer to board officer to executive director, with multiple stints in all such roles. That's been an integrated part of my life my entire adulthood, and I've seen a million zealous newcomers such as yourself breeze in, think they're going to change the world, lecture those of us who've been working in the trenches for years, and then burn out and blow out of the door as quickly as they walked in because they weren't getting out if it what they thought they would.

Twelve days is rather early to make a judgement about things, as the key will come after you've done it for some time and get a true sense of the degree your actions do and do not make a difference. Many volunteers get discouraged or burn out after realizing they're working with a lot of people who will not change or really be helped, or who will not follow through on their promises/intentions, or who are conning the agency to get what they want, etc. It can also be discouraging to realize that many clients will approach you as a mark to take advantage of. The key is to take great comfort in the few whose lives you might really help, because they are there and it's not always clear who they are, while understanding that you're not really fixing anything on a grand scale: you're collecting spare drops of rain to try to fill an ocean of need. You help a few individuals a great deal, others a little bit, and don't make a major impact of most -- that's the true reality of social work. When you can take that in, not take it personally while still caring as much as possible, and still come back for more, that's when you're walking the walk. Perhaps your new-found religious zeal will help carry you through all this -- I hope so -- but a solid sense of reality and the ability to understand just where you're fitting in the big social picture doesn't hurt either.

A couple of points -- first, because the clients of the place you're volunteering for have a high rate of HIV and STD infection does not mean that is the normal rate for sex workers in your area. Drug addicts generally have a higher rate of infection, as do those who are in mandatory programs. They are also less likely to change their behaviors. Still, guys who are having sex with drug addicts and picking up streetwalkers in the U.S. are definitely exposing themselves to a higher degree of risk, no question about it.

Second, yes, sex and love can go hand in hand, I absolutely agree. So can toast and jam, baseball and hot dogs, jazz and rain, etc., but in none of these cases is it necessarily the only option, and in no instance does having only one of the two mean something's wrong. Love without sex can be a great thing, as can sex without love. If your life is devoid of love, you feel that lack, and you're using sex as a way of covering that up, then, yeah, you're likely going to end up feeling empty. But that's far from the only way things happen, and the statement that an unfulfilling sexual coupling somehow automatically leads to the need for another of the same is simply 12-step no-think nonsense. It can, sure, but it doesn't necessarily. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes sex is just sex. In fact, heading out to a P4P encounter where you know in advance that it's just about sex is a good deal less damaging, imho, than heading out to bars on endless one-night stands in the hope that sex might turn into love.

Finally, you say you've never judged anyone here, but you've told us all 1) we're involved in wrong behavior that is morally corrupt, and 2) ought to stop, 3) you've said people involved in mongering -- meaning all of us here -- take advantage of others, 4) you've told us we're far gone. Exactly how is that not judgemental? Good that you've found something that works for you, but so have some of the rest of us. Perhaps the fault, dear Horatio, lies not in our stars but ourselves, and just because it's an equation that's no longer working for you doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the equation and that it's not working fine for others here. Some of us know exactly who we are, what we're doing, and why, are right where we intend to be, and don't need some sort of religious or social diagnosis to explain it to ourselves.

[Pokey]

GT, Good for you! I too wish you well. Hopefully I'll follow your path in a few years. But for now I'll still troll the dark underworld of Mongerville, where I have lot of company, untill I can rid myself of this bad habit.

Actually, I'm doing pretty good. I no longer have any desire to pick up SG's. I used to beat up my car good, always needing new brakes and clutch's. I almost stopped going to MP's, but they are so cheap where I live, I can't help going once in a great while .( Asian women are my weakness)

I don't Monger outside of North America, if I go on vacation somewhere overseas, I don't look for pussy.( I try to keep away from the hot spots)

I do still go to TJ about once a month; I can't help that yet. I guess I make up for pent-up desires, because when I go like last week. I picked up two girls at once, then just before I was going home; I pickup up another Bargirl for the road. With Viagra, Cialis, having mutiple partners is easy and makes quiting even harder.

If you fall off the wagon, no problem just continue the life you want to lead and you'll be fine.

[Travis Bickle 2]

tang, i too wish you the best of luck in your new life. although i have no current plans to give up the hobby completely, i believe i will very soon. it just isn't as fun as it used to be. and although a lot of us defend the hobby, just how many of us would take our sons or nephews out cruising with us. would we really want a kid of ours to spend untold days and hours driving through seedy parts of town risking arrest, disease, and picking up sw's? i wouldn't. would any of you?

having worked in the addiction field myself i see you as the typical addict. the first thing most newly recovering addicts want to do is show their friends what they have and try to get them on board. it almost never works. more often than not they get the newly recovered addict to relapse. i admire what you are doing, but a newly recovering sex addict working with hookers is akin to an alcoholic leaving a treatment center and going to work in a bar. obviously you haven't sought counsel with the group members, a sponser, a therapist, pastor, or you would be advised just how bad of idea this is. you really can't help someone until you get healthy yourself and this doesn't happen in a couple of weeks from watching a movie.

i'm not trying to judge you but this is a great time to work on yourself. if you believe in the 12 steps then you should be working them instead of hanging with prostitutes. i know it's probably kind of exciting to see how close to the flame you can get without getting burnt but you're putting yourself at risk.

anyhow, best of luck to you. please pm me sometime, i wouldn't mind chatting with you some time.

onward and upward!

civ2000

[Joe Zop]

Point taken on the whole cruising aspect, Civ2000, but that's far from the only scenario available in P4P. Personally, I'd have no problem taking an appropriately-aged nephew to a legal bordello, as it would frankly be a better option than having him knock up some girlfriend just because he's desperate to get his rocks off. The problem, of course, is that legal bordellos are hard to come by in the USA, which says more about the country than prostitution itself.

And that's also a very good point on addict behavior -- a completely clean break, so one has the chance to solidly establish alternate habits and environment -- is usually best.

[Blind Lust]

Poverty, Perversion and Prostitutes - A Different Perspective

As a U.S. citizen living in the United States, I have few legal opportunities to enjoy the hobby, and those (in the state of Nevada) are very costly. The safest, most discreet extralegal play for pay is often too expensive; the cost-effective streetwalkers can hardly be considered safe and discreet, albeit relatively inexpensive. Most cities in the U.S. have successfully cracked down on massage places which offer sexual services for an additional "tip."

By my fourth trip to Amsterdam, I finally became emboldened enough to use the services of sex workers on three different occasions. Inexpensive by U.S. standards, I enjoyed play with three very lovely women, for a total cost of around US$400.00. My eyes were opened; for what I might have paid an escort for two hours in the U.S.A., I had enjoyed four hours with three different women. I was, you'll pardon the expression, hooked on legal play for pay. I was able to explain the expenditure to my wife by saying that I needed daily massage to relieve an orthopedic condition, made worse by too much walking on the uneven cobblestone streets of old Amsterdam. I'm not sure if my wife believed this, but she let it pass.

Now that the stock market has gone downhill, our discretionary budget has shrunk, and dollars for travel and sexual services are becoming increasingly hard to find.

This being the case, I began researching prostitution in Third World countries, particularly Mexico and Central America. Enticed by glowing reports on the WSG Forum, I began to research a trip in earnest. Beyond travel information, mongering reports and the like, I began to read extensively from governmental reports, human rights organization websites and the CiA World Book of Facts. What I discovered has led me to ponder poverty and prostitution, and to come to a moral stance on the issue.

From the wealthiest nation in Central America (Panama) to the poorest (Honduras), numerous impoverished women turn to prostitution to survive in some cases, and to improve their lives through increased consumer power above and beyond survival for others. Most of the women involved in the sex trade are adults who appear to have freely chosen this career path , most of them only work as prostitutes for a short while.

Why would a woman "degrade" herself and sell her body? For one reason, and one reason only. Compared to women who share her age group and education, she will earn four times as much per hour as factory workers, domestic servants, agricultural workers or even other skilled service professions, such as hair stylists. She will be able to earn this income doing something which is considered natural and necessary for humans, something which she knows how to do well and which she may even enjoy. She will hone communication skills, perhaps even learning a second language in the process. She may even have the opportunity to meet and marry a wealthy man. In the end, she does it for the money.

Poverty is a complex issue, but I believe that those of us fortunate enough to live in a wealthier country owe the rest of the world a little help. Charities such as Jackson's Argentina Charity Fund to feed hungry children in Buenos Aires deserve our support. We have to do what we can.

Does this mean that we should feel guilty about poverty, and by extension for "taking advantage" of women in poorer countries for buying a precious service from them? I don't think so. Men who patronize prostitutes in these poorer countries are to a great degree helping people survive and even thrive. As the woman will earn a great deal of money relative to her local economy, as she is doing work that she has freely chosen, and as prices are a bargain by U.S. standards and the act legal, prostitution is a win-win situation for both provider and customer.

However, we must if we are humane and fair, need to adopt a "gentleman's code of honor" regarding mongering in the poorer nations of the world. I hope all who read this will adopt this code, or at least open a dialogue about it on this forum.

I am a gentleman player who holds these things to be part of my code of behavior and of honor.

1. I will not use my economic advantage to abuse children. I will never knowingly have sex with a child under the age of consent in her country.

2. I will not expose any sexual partner, personal or professional to risk of sexual disease or otherwise endanger her. I will practice safer sex at all times. Risk management shall be my responsibility.

3. I shall never strike a woman in rage.

4. I shall treat my sexual playmate as a friend with the respect and etiquette of a gentleman.

5. I shall negotiate price and service in a calm and friendly manner, but I shall be firm regarding cost. I will not undermine other hobbyists by overpaying for service. I acknowledge that even reasonable prices charged by local sex workers already earns them a superior income to other women of similar background, education and skills.

6. I shall not feel guilt. If I have treated the prostitute with respect and friendly gentility, if I have paid a fair price, if I have protected her and myself against sexually transmitted infection, then I have nothing about which to feel guilt. Both she and I have won the game.

7. I understand that the hobby brings with it certain dangers from crime, therefore I will watch the back of my fellow hobbyists, offer protection when possible, and always offer friendly support. We are a band of brothers and we shall care for our own.

8. I am discreet and do not discuss my exploits with others outside the hobby.

9. I expect my sexual playmates to be clean and attractive. I will keep myself fit and clean, groomed and sober enough to comport myself as a gentleman.

10. I know that life is brief. I intend to enjoy as much of it as I can. The pursuit of pleasure is a worthy pastime. I shall therefor try to maintain the demeanor of one who is thoroughly enjoying life with enthusiasm, passion and a lecherous grin.

[Cash Works]

B.L.,

I agree with most of what you wrote, but think you may have left out a few things.

In the paragraph where you start off asking why a woman would choose to become a prostitute, you conclude it's merely for the money. You forgot to mention that in most of the low paying jobs you listed, she would be supervised by men who would be demanding sexual favors from her in order for her to keep her low paying job. So, it makes sense for here to go pro, make more money and cut out the drudgery of the low paying job.

Your first rule:

"1. I will not use my economic advantage to abuse children. I will never knowingly have sex with a child under the age of consent in her country."

Should include not having sex with a child under the age of consent in your own country as well as her country. Many countries are passing laws that allow them to prosecute citizens who travel to foreign countries for the purpose of engaging in sexual activity with minors (minors as defined by the country of origin, not the destination country where the act may have been performed).

Better yet, rule number one should read:

"I will never knowingly have sex with a woman under the age of 18."

That should satisfy most, if not all age of consent laws around the world and it would also conform with WSG Forums posting guidelines - No sex with Minors where minors are defined as anyone under the age of 18.

There was a discussion some time ago where one poster pointed out that in some countries where prostitution is legal and the age of consent is below 18, prostitutes must be at least 18.

CW

[Hat Trick]

Hey, what happened to this thread?

Is it shut down to any more posts?

Testing.

Hello?

[Ludovico]

If there's anyone out there who needs some information on this topic then check out http://www.catwinternational.org/fb/index.html#ab
They seem to have collated alot of information from lots of sources. Personally I only use it to find out where I want to go next.

[Domino]

Ludo: Thank you for this link. The BBC's news page http://news.bbc.co.uk/ has a not very informative short video on [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) from Moldova. Some information on those orgnizations would be interesting. For example, I would bet that most women from Moldova who go overseas do not go into prostitution. I would also bet that a huge amount of Third World hookers are terrified about ending up chained in a brothel in Italy or somewhere else. The Lonely Planet guidebooks are full of all this responsible tourism stuff and their tour books moralize endlessly about the sex trade instead of concentrating on giving good, sound (non sexual) touring advice.

Morality is a strange thing and while I would have no problems with people opposed to the skin trade, I somehow smell a well subsidized rat with many of these outfits. I am sure many of them are part of the poverty industry, along with AIDS outfits and disaster relief outfits. Greenpeace would be a similar bait and switch outfit: most of their expenses go on overheads.

[Cash Works]

Let's face it. Prostitution is really the only honest method of procuring sex from a woman.

I've mentioned this to a number of people and have always been met with a response like "bullshit" (that's from men, women are totally pissed off and scandalized). The thumpers will say the only honest method for a man to have sex with a woman is through marriage, others say you should wine and dine a non-pro to get her in the sack. My point is that the prostitute will state her costs for her services up front, while non-pros (marriage/wine & dine) hint that you might "get lucky" if you play your cards (or dollar bills) right, without telling you upfront how much you'll have to spend on her before she provides some service.

A couple weeks ago, I saw a report in one of the threads where the guy had recently divorced colleagues calculate their average cost per sexual encounter with their ex-wives (money they spent during the marriage + cost of divorce / number of times they had sex) and he said they generally came up with a number that was at least double the going rate for an escort service.

Can anyone honestly say they have ever had sex without paying for it? I can only think of one woman that I've had sex with in the last 30 years that cost me absolutely nothing, but I'm pretty sure she used me to make a point with somebody else (fine by me, I had a great time!). he others were either cash paid for presents/dinner/activities or else I was rewarded with sex for favors I had done for them - ever tried rewarding a woman with sex if she did you a favor?

CW

[Rabo Verde]

We should start a betting pool on Getting Tang, on what date he will fall off the wagon! I agree completely that we are all addicts, but hey life is short and you gotta get some enjoyment SOMEWHERE, even if it is transitory! Blind Lust, having been just about everywhere, I recommend Buenos Aires or Rio de Janeiro. If you just can't spare the time or distance, Costa Rica is OK but not nearly as good. ANY of those places is 10x better than Amsterdam, no comparison, like the Little League vs. the World Series.

[GettingTang]

Chuponalgas,

Funny you mention this. I've long ago fallen off the wagon. The small head always wins! There is not arguing with the small head.

As to my rantings way back, as I have stated numerous times, believe them or not. Everything i post to this thread, is likely made up. :)

TANG~!

[Wicked SH]

TANG,

I would take a nephew or son and help him to release some of his energy. Besides the boy should learn how to go out and get some when he wants it. Not be forced to date some broad who is only taking advantage of him. We have all dated the girl that made the promises and never put out.

I honestly can't think of a single reason to not show the boy how to go out and get some P4P. STD's are a risk and he would be properly educated about what to look for and how to use protection, but it is a risk with normall girls as well. I wish someone would have helped me. All the money I spent on women / girls that didn't put out and didn't feel any responsibility after all the money I spent, I think I could have bought a small country.

No when I have a son or nephew I will teach the boy all about dating and women, and how to get P4P. Sex is the only reason any of us ever dated a girl and paid a single dollar for dinner, flowers and such.

To be honest when I think of it I have more respect for the prositutes I patronized than alot of the women I have dated. At least with prositutes I know where I stand and they generally don't try to deceive me. With american girls you date you spend money and time and energy trying to develop a relationship that leads to sex only to hear 'I think your a great guy, but we are only friends' line. How can you respect a woman that tells you that. She has accepted all the gifts and dinners and time and effort and never once indicates she doesn't feel that way for you, and when you make an issue about the relationship not moving you get that line. What a crock of BS. I definetlly feel prositution is moral and should be legal. If all boys understood how to get P4P, and it was legal it would put an end to the girl racket in america. It is why girls in other countries are better women. The boys can go get sex pretty easily in alot of countries so the girls can't use sex as a lure to get boys to blow money on them.

Wicked

[Lombardi II]

Wow, some of you guys are incredibly shallow. Has it ever occurred to you that the women which you "wine and dine" may not always have an interest in sex? I think that it is deceptive/unethical to do something for another for the sole purpose of acquiring, or attempting to acquire, something that you want. Put yourself in the woman's shoes, guys. How would you like to be treated to, e.g. a nice evening on the town only to discover that your host's sole motivation is to "bag" you. That is awfully degrading, as if to say that she is somehow obligated to sleep with you because you were kind enough to feed her. What bollocks.

Granted, some women know what your expectations are, and they will lead you to believe that they are "willing and able" so that you spend money on them. But to tally up your costs during a marriage in order to figure out what each lay cost is disturbing beyond words.

I don't see anything wrong with P4P either, guys, but let's not forget that RESPECT is always important.

[Cash Works]

Lombardi,

I respect honesty. Pro's, in my opinion have an absolute honesty when it comes to sex - you negotiate for their services and they deliver, granted, many of the pro's also tend to be associated with dishonest practices, but when it comes to sex, that is generally pretty straight forward. Non-pros would generally never admit that they're after your money, but take a look at all the women you've been with and ask yourself if you were on food-stamps or making minimum wage & living in the projects (or "on the dole" for you non-Americans), how many of these women would have shared their bed with you?

Pro's are after your money and they set a price for sex - they're looking for the quick buck - if the price is right, then the guy pays it and the deal is consumated. Non-Pro's are also after your money, but they're after the big score. I'm not saying that all of them start out with the intention of taking all you have and then dumping you, but take a look at the divorce rates. From what I've heard, divorces generally wind up with the ex-wife getting at least half of what the husbands net worth regardless of whether that net worth was accumulated before or during the marriage. With the few cases where the wife had a greater net worth than the husband, the wife still kept a majority of the assets. Anyone thinking about getting married should do themselves a favor and hire an accounting firm to do an official audit of your assets prior to the wedding and get it all documented in a pre-nuptial agreement - just in case - it may not help in the divorce, but it's worth a try.

The honesty thing goes both ways, of course. If a guy is wining and dining a woman with the intention of getting her in the sack, but he says otherwise, he's lying. I've met dozens of "player" types who consider themselves "smooth operators" because they can "lie their way into almost any womans nickers" - is that worthy of respect? I think not. They're just as bad as the women who use their sexuality to get what they want, but don't consumate the deal.

The bit about tallying up the cost during marriage actually had me ROFLMAO when I read it. I don't remember exactly where I saw it, probably in one of the rants on the "American Women" thread.

CW

[Joe Zop]

But what's the definition of honesty here? A women who is being wined and dined may be looking for a real relationship and potential mate, which can include sex but not only that. Is she dishonest if she doesn't put out because she doesn't feel that the guy is ultimately the relationship she wants? Is she dishonest because she goes on a second (or whatever) date because she's not sure? It's not that easy a line to define.

Sure, Pros are honest about what they want -- because it's a very narrow transaction where the payoff is clear to both parties involved. Unfortunately, most things in real life are not so cut and dried.

[Travis Bickle 2]

Wicked SH, If I recall I was the one who mentioned not wanting to take a nephew or son out to pick up SW's, not Tang. But it doesn't really matter. I can think of plenty of reasons not to.

I think that quite a few guys on this thread monger in foreign countries (to me that means outside America where I live). In a lot of places prostitution is legal and safe and socially acceptable and I would have no problem taking my kid to a good brothel or something like that and teaching him the ropes.

Unfortunately, (at least for mongering) I live in the United States. Outside of the extremely expensive brothels in Nevada most of us are relegated to picking up Streetwalkers.

A good percentage of these women are heroin or crack addicts and will steal anything from you that is not tied down. A few have HIV, almost all have Herpes which a condom does little to prevent. For example if she has a small sore in her pubic area which is undectable to most guys doing a car date she could likely pass it on condom or not.

My son or nephew risks getting arrested. While a misdeameanor for solicitation won't ruin their lifes, I'm sure they don't want to explain it at a job interview. And there are some jobs that it will hinder or prevent them from getting. And if the SW drops a crack rock or a pipe in the car then they can get busted for felony drug possession and then they are SCREWED.

Or perhaps he accidently picks up a minor who claims she's 19, then he gets the pleasure of registering as a sex offender.

Also in my fine country they seize cars in a lot of jurisdictions. So that nice convertible my nephew saved his "Wendy's" paychecks for all through high school and college could be auctioned off for peanuts.

Add to that that mongering can become addictive and as a result very expensive: myself I've spent over a hundred grand on the hobby and have a rough time going for very long without cruising despite my best intentions. I know it doesn't happen to everyone or even to most, but I'm sure a lot of guys on this board know what I'm talking about. It's so extremely easy to just jump in the car and get your rocks off why bother working to get a decent give and take relationship. Despite what the guys on the American women board claim there are a lot of good gals in the U. S. Call me old-fashioned but I'd rather him date some nice gal he met in college rather than a heroin addict he picked up off the street.

You said you couldn't think of a single reason not to teach a boy to P4P so I decided to give you a few of my own.

Civ2000

[Cash Works]

Joe,

I agree, that it may not be cut and dry when hooking up for a long term relationship. That's why I say p4p is the only honest method of hooking up, because it is cut and dry. If you enjoy jumping through hoops, feel free to persue the non-pro action (or lack, there of). If you want to raise children, then get married and risk losing all your assets. Otherwise stick to the p4p.

I have non-mongering friends who chase women around for months dumping heaps of money on them trying to get in their pants but never do - I'm not talking about teenagers trying to lose their virginity, these are adults, that I can't help but think, should know better. To them, I say "save some money, hire a pro".

I know 3 guys who have been cleaned out by their ex-wives after a lifetime of working to save for retirement (and were fairly wealthy). 2 Danish guys (wrote about them in another thread) who worked offshore (ships) for 50 years and within a very short period of time after they retired, their wives of 30 odd years decided they didn't like having them around all the time, so they divorced them - both were basically destitute after the divorce since the laws are in the womans favor. Both had to go back to work offshore when they were in their mid sixties. The other guy, I just met recently is American - he had started a small business shortly after graduating from college, then sold it and retired when he was in his late 40's. He got married to a woman half his age when he was 50, 3 years later, she divorced him and wound up with about 75% of what he had built for himself before he ever met her. He had the misfortune of having to get a job after being retired for about 7 years & not having worked for somebody else for more than 30 years.

I don't know all the reasons behind the divorces - I never met the wives - the guys all basically said that the wives just got tired of them, hired a lawyer and cleaned them out with the help of the courts.

CW

[Ford]

Cash Works wrote:
If you enjoy jumping through hoops, feel free to persue the non-pro action.
I know 3 guys who have been cleaned out by their ex-wives after a lifetime of working to save for retirement.


............Hey CW, I agree with you 110%!! I have never posted on this thread (never even viewed it) but anyone who knows me from my frequent Latin America trips, knows my opinion. EVERY MAN PAYS! Some do it directly, some do it indirectly but everyone pays in one form or another. As I near the last of my 2nd ex-wife's alimony payments, I like to think that I'm paying her for her companionship, her love, her compassion, her friendship but in the final analysis what I really paid her for was her p**** for 4 years.

P4P (as you said) is more cut and dry, less duplicitous, and ultimately more honest.

Cheers,
FORD

[Boxcc]

Cash Works and Ford, I could not agree with you more. We all pay for it, it's just a matter of how much. I had to pay my ex for 5 fucking years after it was over in alimony.

When we are dating, we are putting money out in the 'hope' that eventually you will get to pay-dirt and get in her pants. Cash Works, as you have pointed out, you have friends that spend gobs of cash but get nothing in return. If we are all honest here, it has happened to all of us at one point or another. I am of the opinion that it is just better to p4p, you know exactly what you are getting for your money.

If I would have taken that advice, I probably would still be married to my first wife. I found a little honey on the side and was paying to wine and dine her, all to get into her pants, and I did. But, it was that money/paper trail that led my first wife into discovering what I was up to. If I had just got cash out of the bank machine and went and bought some lovin' directly and not left a fucking paper trail, I would have a lot more money to play with today!

So, if you or one of your friends is telling yourself that you never had to pay for it, you are lying to yourself. We all pay for it in one way or another. I think it is just more direct to p4p!

[Joe Zop]

Well, of course this is all comparing apples and oranges. I can point you to any number of guys I know whose wives have taken care of them for years when they suffered a serious physical malady, who have provided amazing home lives where the guy's basically been adored and waited on hand and foot, and where nothing's ever gone wrong. You're sure as heck not getting that out of a "cost-effective" P4P scenario! Yeah, there are lots of guys who get shafted in a marriage, lots more women who get the same, lots of people divorced from or by not-so-nice people and so on. But being married or being in a serious relationship isn't all about sex (even though married guys statistically get more than single guys) and trying to break things down monetarily strictly on a sexual encounter basis is like deciding to bicycle from New York to Los Angeles because the cost of gas is too high.

I'm obviously a big fan of P4P, but if you're going to make such comparisons surely you should also consider aspects of a successful model from BOTH sides. Where, in this cost-benefit analysis, is the financial factoring in of the increased health benefits guys get from being married, for example? The increased life expectancy? The increased income expectancy?

Half the marriages in the states keep going until one partner dies, and a high majority of the men in those marriages term them "happy" or "successful."

Everything's not just about how much it costs, and that's true pretty much no matter what you're talking about. If you compare the cost of a Big Mac with that of filet mignon the former wins, but it's not necessarily the better choice.

[Dickhead]

Well, I don't know of any guys whose wives took good care of them after suffering serious physical problems, but then I am still younger. What I do know of is lots of guys whose wives blew them off when their job situation went sour or when they decided the guy wasn't developing along their time table. Of course, I also know plenty of guys who've dumped their wives for younger, more attractive women.

I don't think the fact that married men statistically "get more" means very much as it is only based on quantity and not quality. My marriage started off with lots of high quality sex and ended up with my wife telling me I wanted too much sex and that I would never find a woman willing to give me sex every day.

Well, she was right but now I have found that I can get one woman per day to give me sex for a reasonable price, and I don't have to beg for it. Also the average sex session I get down here is far above the average sex sessions I experienced while in LTRs. And there's no birthdays to remember, no lingerie drying in the shower, no bitching about leaving the toilet seat up, and no sulking. Sulkers get ejected immediately.

[Joe Zop]

I'm not sure how you'd go about measuring the "quality" of sex for such a comparison. No disagreement that the quality of sex in a marriage at times may leave a lot to be desired, but that's also certainly true for P4P. It's a rare monger who hasn't had lousy lays, or who hasn't been hurried, ripped off, been stuck with a starfish, etc. The trick in either scenario is to find the right person (or persons!) to hook up with.

And no question either that it's possible to end up in a great situation with P4P or that it's possible to end up in a lousy marriage. But it's also possible to end up as one of the basically sad and lonely mongers I've seen in Thailand and elsewhere or also to end up in a marriage that works.

I'm just saying the analysis by this group, which represents for the most part a singular point of view, is rather one-sided.

[Dickhead]

NEVER been hurried or ripped off down here and the worst experience I had was when the gal got sick because I had fed her too much Bailey's. 70% great sex, 20% good sex, 10% mediocre sex. Don't think there are too many marriages like that.

[Travis Bickle 2]

Joe Zop, Two great posts and I couldn't agree more.

Like you, I'm a big fan of P4P and indulge in it regularly. But all these guys who are bashing marriage and say that there is no difference between paying for sex with your wife and paying for sex with a pro couldn't have it more wrong.

I don't think anyone gets married just for the sex. Sure sex is an important part of any relationship but only a part. I think most people get married because they genuinely care for each other. I think most guys get married for the companionship. It's great to have sex with a pro, but I think most guys would prefer coming home to a wife who adores him and is having sex because she wants to give him pleasure.

There have been plenty of surveys to back up what Joe said. Married guys do live an average of 7 to 10 years longer than their non-married counterparts; they report being happier and more satisfied in their lifes than their single friends; a higher income and a better standard of living; the list goes on and on. If you become ill and need someone to take care of you just try getting a hooker to come over and nurse you.

If everyone is so worried about getting all their assets taken by an ex-wife there are ways to prevent it. A solid prenuptual where both parties are represented by attornies is a good start. I was married for ten years and I didn't lose any assets. Again like Joe said: 50% of marriages don't end in divorce. Despite what everyone says, I think those are pretty good odds.

There is no comparing the two. Civ

[J Burb]

The following is a great personal illustration of the clear economic advantages of P4P. It also shows how even someone with limited funds can still swing it:

Late last June I picked up my first SW in Newburgh NY. She cost me $30 for FS. Since then I have traveled to many other tri-state locations and have become quite skilled at finding and negotiting with SW's who usually cost me closer to $20. I kept track of everything and after adding it all up exactly one year later, here are my results:

I've picked up a exactly 37 different SW's in the past year.

Because I picked up some of them twice, I actually had a total of 42 seperate sessions.

42 sessions averages out to be 1 girl every 8-9 days for the year

So far I've paid a total of $970 for all activities.

This is at an average of $23 per trick

Now I know that this is even less than some of you guys who regularly pay for sex might pay, but I dont do the MP or escort thing, I strictly stick to SW's. I feel the econmic benifit far outwieghs the risks and quite frankly its a lot of fun. In addition to all this activity, I have a full time girlfriend and a couple of occasional fuck buddies, so as you can imagine, I keep quite busy. Even though I'd consider my girlfriend "low maintanence", she has still cost me at least double of what 37 different providers have throughout the year. Plus she has cost me something even more valuable than that: MY TIME! So I figure if ever I had no girlfriend but still wanted to get laid 2-3 times a week, I would probably be able to pull it off for less than the total of what every female in my life is costing me right now. Plus, I would gain more time to myself and could almost triple my variety of experiences so long as I didnt run out of new options to sample. I certianly havent run out yet and at the rate I'm going, anything I had six months ago would seem new again anyway.

I feel sorry for the guys that pay through the nose and get little or no sex from thier partners. Hopefully they find this site useful. All I have to say is any girlfriend I ever have from here on out had better behave herself because she has no idea of what shes up against!

J Burb

[Ford]

Civ2000 wrote:
If everyone is so worried about getting all their assets taken by an ex-wife there are ways to prevent it. A solid prenuptual where both parties are represented by attornies is a good start.

...............With all due respect Civ, YOU try to get a girl to sign a prenuptual agreement. "But Ford, why do we need a prenuptual?" "Don't you trust me?" "Don't you love me?" "We're going to be married forever, aren't we?" "Why then do we need an agreement?"

Believe me you got a better chance of hitting the lottery 2X than getting a girl to sign. Marriage always ends up being a "leap of faith". (my opinion)

Cheers,
FORD

[Prokofiev]

". . . YOU try to get a girl to sign a prenuptual agreement.
"Don't you love me?" "We're going to be married forever, aren't we?" "Why then do we need an agreement?" Believe me you got a better chance of hitting the lottery 2X than getting a girl to sign . . ."

Sorry Ford, but this is typical pussy-whipped US male thinking. You want something. She doesn't. She gets her way. You see no alternative. You marry her. You lose . . .

You should simply tell her to sign or move on. If she leaves, let her go. Plenty more where she came from. There can be no negociation if she has all the power. Women know that we think with the little head and will play you accordingly. Be strong. Play to win. Put the pressure on her. And consider your alternatives.

Peace, P

[Dickhead]

Take the D.A.R.E. approach. Just "say no" to marriage. Now as to JZ's statistics on how often married men get sex vs. single men, those stats don't include a sub-set for single men who monger, like I do. How often do I get sex? As often as I can afford it which is plenty often down here.

Prostitution is very moral here. I meet nice women, we negotiate, they give me sex, I give them money, and they leave (well, there's two that I let stay as long as they want). We are all consenting adults and no one is taking advantage of anyone else. Also it is perfectly legal. One of my better prostitutes down here left home when she was 14 and has travelled the world selling her pussy. Now she is 24, speaks three languages, has money saved up, and has no desire to quit being a prostitute. She says she loves to fuck and since she gets to choose who she fucks, when, and how, it works for her. She did say I should start giving her more money but instead I fed her some chocolate and fucked her again.

I'm very pussy whipped but since no one pussy is doing the whipping, I am in a much better position than any married guy.

[J Burb]

1.) I heard from someone who professionally manages the money of several high income divorced clients, that a prenup is not always as enforceble as you might think. It seems the longer you are married, the weaker parts of it may become and rest assured there will always be a divorce lawyer willing to challange it in her behalf.

2.) Better than a prenup, just pick a woman with a good job who is at least your financial equal or more, and NEVER allow her to quit to stay home and become your financial dependant, not even to have children. That way if theres a split, the half she gets may actually be her own and alimony may not even be considered. Besides, I've often noticed the less a woman works, the more demanding and controlling she will attempt to become of her man. Busting your balls will ultimately become her full time job.

3.) Heres a tip for getting out of alimony: Research what states dont allow alimony, because not all of them do. If you become a legal resident of a year or more in that state before you get divorced you may be able to avoid alimony completely. I know someone who's divorce worked out that way because they had traveled on buisiness to a non-alimony state so often, they eventually needed to rent a small apartment and register a vehicle there which later qualified them for full time residential status before the divorce.

J burb

[Travis Bickle 2]

J Burb, I have heard it is crucial for both parties to be represented in the prenup otherwise the wife's attorney can often successfully argue his client was not represented and thus taken advantage of. So before you get married each party has to have their own attorney.

As far as getting her to sign I will just tell her that even though I love her and expect us to stay together forever, 50% of marriages end in divorce and I'm not willing to risk losing all my money in the unlucky event we are the 50% that gets divorced.

Hey, it worked with my current S/O.

You guys are still acting like the only reason anyone gets married is so they can have more sex. Either way I'm going to have lots of sex. That's who and what I am. I won't do a cost-benefit analysis and pick the one that's cheaper per lay. If I get married it would be for the partnership and all the other benefits besides sex. And if the sex is great then that's just an added benefit.

Civ

[J Burb]

Its hard to argue with statistics Civ2000. I think a guy could also convincingly turn her same wimpering "dont you love me" arguement around and tell her if she really did love you, thats the very reason she should sign it. Its still a sensitive issue but considering todays marital climate, you'd almost have to be suspect of a woman who refused to sign it. After all, marriage is a leagally binding contract but most people dont really understand the full magnitude of that fact untill they get a divorce. Therefore marriage should be handled with no less care or preliminary consideration than any other contract.

J Burb

[Ford]

I think when a half-dozen reasonably intelligent men (myself included) are engaged in a debate over the virtues of marriage on a "sex" board on the internet - it pretty much sums up the state of marriage in this country today!(lol) ;)

The fact that we're not only members here but are respected senior members with literally thousands of posts between us - is a pretty good indication why marriage is a losing proposition. (lol) My two cents.
Cheers.

[Hat Trick]

Dickhead:

The D.A.R.E approach - Just say no - to marriage is interesting.

But, I've said it for years and I'll say it again, I believe in divorce for the same reason I believe in marriage. Getting a divorce to me is as natural as getting married.

Obviously two people get married when they are in love and care for one another and would love nothing more than to spend everyday of their lives with each other. However, by the same token, when circumstances change, people change, and people always change, to some degree. When situation degrades dramatically then it’s natural to proceed with separation rather then standing on your ears trying to conform to the irreconcilable differences that have developed over the years.

Surely I don’t recommend throwing out the baby with the bath water, but it’s not always possible to find solutions to intimacy problems or philosophical impasses in marriages, especially teen marriages where couples never developed the trust and the capacity to deal with married life after the initial physical attraction. In other words, they were never meant to be married.

50% divorce rate doesn’t surprise me since most adult couples can’t even or want to program a VCR. Not that huge of a generalization really.

Incidentally, speaking of babies, a divorce is significantly complicated when kids are in the picture. People always had clear conscience about getting a divorce or even being a veteran of multiple divorces, however, very few people can say they did the right thing when kids are involved, at least not to the degree of perfection by those who have no kids. I would have difficulty personally in making that decision so decisively myself.

So if anyone has gotten into a marriage on the pretext of incredible sex on a regular basis and not much more, and when the shit hits the fan, by all means they shouldn’t feel guilty or any more like an infidel if they take the natural course, sometimes the best course, which is to simply get a divorce and part your ways.

[Dick Nasty]

Hey all you fellas,

You are all right about mongering is the best a man can enjoy. Nothing to worry about this or that and the best thing you don;t have to lick the pussy twice if you don't like. Expensive? well that depends what you do. I for example try to get the best bargain from a girl. Here in the US, if I meet a chick in the club I don't throw down money for her drinks. I find out first if she is up for grabs. But most of my mongering is done in asia, compare the money spent in the US, I save and go on a hell of a time in asia. Anyway, marriage and divorce will result in hell for most of us, the law favor women, that sucks. So we men need to find better ways to get our little head happy.

[Your Guest]

On Marriage.

My Aunt's husband told this to me when I broached the subject of marriage with him, "Sonny", he said, "You will regret if you marry, and you will regret if you do not". He knows what he is saying, he celeberated his 50th wedding aniversary, this May.

We have a proverb in our parts, it goes, 'You do not keep a buffalo if you need to drink milk'. Hey but that is just a joke, comparing a p4p relationship, it could be a one night stand or it could be longer, with marriage is childish. We have a post here which has given a comparative statement of expenses. I am sure that guy is not serious, if he is it is a sad reflection of the state of his mind. He needs professional help.

[Your Guest]

as one of the posts says this forum includes a great majority of like minded individuals, and as such the opinions expressed here are not representative of society at large. the sore point here was of alimony, so we have guys here who are through expensive divorces. it therefore is unrealistic to have objective opinions expressed here.

can we have comments on a few points that i am raising,

1. marriage as an institution for bringing children up.

2. marriage as a vehicle towards social acceptance, a 50 year old married man has greater acceptance as compared to a 50 year old unmarried man (or woman).

3. the pleasure (yes and the pain) of parent hood ( this is not the same as 1. above as 1. is from the perspective of the child.

4. the now well documented benefits of marriage towards good health.

5. the convenience of sex without the fear of breaking laws and the subsequent trouble involved, the guilt of immoral behaviour, without the exposure to s. t. d. and h. i. v.

6. prostitution usually also runs in tandem with activities auch as drug running, child prostitution, kidnapping and forced prostitution, and other criminal activities such as illegal trafficking. illicit alcohol etc.. it perpetuates the nexus between criminals, politicians and corrupt bureaucracy. a share of every rupee (or $, or euro, etc.) that you pay for p4p, could end up supporting these activities.

7. und so weider (and so on.)

hi,

this is just a suggestion, so please don't take it the wrong way.

i appreciate the details in your report, but i know from experience that a lot of people find it easier to read a report if the paragraphs are separated by a single blank line.

i know how this happens: you're banging away at the keyboard, putting your thoughts into the report as fast as you can write them. however, if you could hit the return key twice at the end of each paragraph, your report would be much easier to read, which would certainly be appreciated by your fellow forum members.

thanks,

jackson

[Rock Dog]

Time to weigh in on this issue with my 2 cents worth! As anyone familiar with my previous posts will know, I believe that most things people do are influenced strongly by economic principles. What's perceived to be right or wrong also tends to follow these principles.
The main principle, to me, is that of supply and demand. If you apply this to the subject of prostitution, you would realize that there'd be no supply if there was no demand. If marriage was the best, and only answer for everyone there would be no such thing as prostitution. If prostitution was such a terrible thing in every possible way, no woman would do it. It's true that some women are forced into doing it, but I think that this represents a small % of the total.

Most prostitutes do it for the money. They consider the pros and cons with regard to whatever situation they are in and then if they decide to go ahead, it's because they think it's worth it.

Most men go and see prostitutes for a reason too. It's not that they enjoy paying for something that some guys can get for free, it's because they are willing to part with some of their money for the thrill of sex whenever they want it. It may also be that they would rather do it with someone who's more attractive than they could get otherwise. In any case, right or wrong doesn't have much to do with it.

I think the main reason why prostitution is considered immoraL in many countries is due to women. If you think about it, who stands the most to lose form legalized sex for money? Women, thats who! Deep down inside, they see it for what it is, competition, plain and simple. Imagine that you are a woman. Now imagine that any guy can easily go out and get laid for $50. Not just that, but with a girl who's maybe younger and better looking than you. For $50. That means the guy could spend $100 a week and get laid by a different girl every time! How could any woman compete with that kind of opportunity, with that kind of variety? Simple, they can't!

So what happens then? They take a stand against the practice. They come up with an attitude saying that those women are slutty, bad people. They also go out and promote similar attitudes against the men who go and see those girls. They influence their husbands, brothers and friends to advocate similar attitudes and to make legislation banning and criminalizing prostitution.

Thats what I think. It's not right and it's not wrong. It's just something people do because they both have a need for something that someone else has.

Not my best writing, but still my 2 cents worth,

Rock

Hi,

This is just a suggestion, so please don't take it the wrong way.

I appreciate the details in your report, but I know from experience that a lot of people find it easier to read a report if the paragraphs are separated by a single blank line.

I know how this happens: You're banging away at the keyboard, putting your thoughts into the report as fast as you can write them. However, if you could hit the return key TWICE at the end of each paragraph, your report would be much easier to read, which would certainly be appreciated by your fellow Forum Members.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Shadow Lance]

Rock Dog,

You are right on the money.

You should also see how women react when I tell them I'm not too interested in American women and prefer women new to the country or that I travel to meet women outside the US.

There is a similar competition factor and they react to it whether or not they are in the guy market themselves. It is a sort of unconscious (or maybe conscious) national sisterhood, and they really don't like even the thought of American men going off the reservation.

Otherwise, how would all these American women find men to support them, their one, two, or three kids from one, two, or three different men and take all their selfish disrespectfull bullshit?

[Ludovico]

Prostitutes were victimized a lot during the inquisition era. Austrian empress Maria Teresa set up the Chastity Committee. Prostitutes were beheaded together with their clients. Pimps were whipped and then exiled. Those parents, whose children were guilty of perversion, were beheaded as well. In the 19th century, the French whipped pimps, cut their ears off and then ousted them from cities.

I don't know about you, but I'm glad this kind of morality doesn't exist anymore.

[Cash Works]

believe it or not, i have a lot of respect for couples who manage to stay married. i beleive that raising children is better when the parents are married, or at least, together than if they're separated. i also believe that if you commit to marriage, then you've committed to monogamy (monotony), a condition that i cannot envision for myself.

however, i don't think that marriage (or mating for life with just one other individual) is natural for humans, or for most species, for that matter. the exception are a few species of birds that mate for life. i believe the institution of marriage was brought about for good reasons, i just can't picture myself settling for a life with just one sex partner.

prostitution and multiple sex partners (don't want to say polygamy, since that's just another form of marriage), is natural and is found in the animal kingdom:

multiple partners: i read a study once done with hamsters - one male hamster in a cage with a female hamster in heat - the male did his business with the female 4 or 5 times, then lost interest. another female in heat was put in the cage and the male went at it again 4 or 5 times, then lost interest. this process was repeated a few more times and the male kept going at it until it keeled over from exhaustion. the point is that men lose interest in a single partner after a while and want to experience something else.

also, check out a herd of cattle sometime - generally one bull for every 10-20 cows. the cows spend all their time eating (and getting fucked), while the bulls keep an eye out for danger.

prostitution in the animal kingdom: another article i read (maybe in national geographic) was about chimpanzees. contrary to popular belief, chimps sometimes eat meat. when male chimps have meat, the females would try to convince the male to share the meat by offering sexual favors - prostitution in the animal kingdom - p4p using food as the form of payment.

females of all species are attracted to dominant males because there is more likelyhood that their offspring will become dominant, ensuring their survival. in our modern society, this dominance has generally been replaced by bank accounts - the bigger the bank account, the more dominant the male is in the eyes of the women (availibility of financial resources = better chance for their children to have a chance at success). even if she doesn't intend to have a child, this form of attraction is genetically engraved on her most primordial being, so she can't help herself and becomes a gold-digging wh*re.

marriage, i believe was imposed upon us in prehistoric times by religious leaders for a couple of reasons and they all revolve around raising children:

1. by making the man responsible for his offspring, a better quality of life was ensured for all in the community. during the third trimester, a pregnant woman is rather incapable of foraging or fending for herself - if her mate provides food and shelter, the chance that the baby will survive is increased dramatically.

2. by having women mate with just one man, it is easier to keep track of relationships between children. when the children grow up and start having sex, it's best to know that your sex partner is not your sibling - [CodeWord130] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord130) relationships tend to yield unfortunate offspring (retardation & other birth defects).

3. by having the women mate with just one man, the man can be relatively certain that any child born of the relationship is his. how many men do you know of that would jump at the chance to raise another guys children? i'm sure that marriage originally started out as polygamous (one man with many wives) and monogomous marriage came about through complaints from women saying "if he can screw multiple partners, why can't i?". also, i'd be willing to bet that in prehistoric times there were far more women than men, a condition that has been changing as technology improves - going to the supermarket is far less dangerous than killing a water buffalo.

just another 2 cents.

cw

[Local Expert]

Cash Works: What a VERY nice and scientific comment ! For you and all others, who wanna get more information on that truly interesting evolutionary subject, I can strongly recommend you to get these two books, written by "Jarred Diamond":

1) Why Sex is Fun?: The Evolution of Human Sexuality
2) The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal

Especially the first one (just about 100 pages), gives you a fascinating overview of who we really are (sexually). Did you know that we have the longest cocks among all primates (in relation to our bodymass) but the chimps have the biggest balls ? :-))

[Joe Zop]

A lot of scientists make the distinction between "genetic monogamy" and "social monogamy." The former, which is what people usually talk about when they talk about monogamy -- staying together and having geing faithful to a single sexual partner -- is far rarer that originally thought, as most of the animals long thought to stick to a single mate are now being shown, through DNA analysis, to have multiple sexual partners. Social monogamy, which means operating as a "couple" within a social construct -- common care and tending of a nest, burrow, offspring, etc., on the other hand, is rather more common. The DNA discoveries have led to rethinking about such animal groups traditionally cited as being monogamous such as wolves, swans, bluebirds, although it's true that many wolves, among others, are serially monogamous. Mammals in particular are rarely monogamous in any sense -- only a few dozen form reliable pair-bonds, while in bird species over 90% do. But those 90% are generally socially and not genetically monogamous -- fewer than 10% of animals that "mate for life" are faithful.

So "marriage" in the animal kingdom isn't totally out of the question, though mammals tend to have less of it than others. Absolute sexual fidelity, however, mostly is, and has been shown, in fact, to increase the possibility of species extinction.

I'm afraid I don't buy Cash Works' religious argument about the rise of marriage, as I just don't know of any kind of historical proof or evidence of such a thing. Is there evidence that pair-bonds didn't form until the rise of organized religion? I believe, in fact, that the evidence says the opposite, and that family structures have been shown to exist even during prehistoric times. I find this argument particularly odd in a post that speaks so well about animal behavior -- why not say instead that humans may be one of those species where social monogamy is normal? And in any event, why couldn't such religious positions form from attempts to explain existing social structures? If humans naturally are socially monogamous, it would only be logical that would be incorporated into religious ritual. The truth is that even the high divorce rate is an argument for social monogamy as a norm -- regardless of the outcome, the attempt is to form a pair.

But let's face it -- statistically, we're all deviants here. According to studies, people who have had sex with foreigners and men who have had sex with at least one prostitute tend to have had the greatest number of sexual partners. The average human male has anywhere from fewer than ten sexual partners during his lifetime (the general number cited) to around eleven (cited in a couple of more recent ones.) Men are also less accurate about reporting the number of partners they've had, according to studies. The average woman has six or so partners in her lifetime. The vast majority of people (around 70%) say they've had one sexual partner in the past year, and the percentage of guys who would fit into this group -- who have had five or more partners in the past year -- is less than 25%.

What we've got here is the minority speculating about the deviant behavior of the majority. :D

[Dickhead]

actually it is an oversimplification to say that [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128) leads to birth defects. what [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128) or inbreeding does is magnify both desirable and undesirable characteristics. so, you get more geniuses and more dummies as well. btw cleopatra was a product of brother-sister [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128).

but it isn't [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128) if i fuck two sisters at the same time, is it? i sure hope not because i met this "*****some foursome" consisting of two sets of sisters from the same home town. they are all hookers and they all live together.

so don't i have a moral obligation to do all four? otherwise i am showing undue favoritism, right?

[GettingTang]

Inbreeding although often joked about is a problem when it comes to genetics. Now I'm not here to put down any race of people, but just merely pointing out a few facts. It is widely known that certain ethnicity's have reproduced amongst each other. The Indians, people from the North Arctic had very small pools of genes to multiply with, so they obviously had lots of inbreeding. I.E. cousins, uncles, aunts with nephews nieces etc. (You get the idea) If you look at these tightly woven people, they have two thousand times the defects of other ethnicity's. They have numerous health issues, poor bone formations, often under developed, they have among the lowest IQs on the planet, they have numerous birth defects, mental retardation rates are enormously high, including down syndrome etc. All this to name just a few. Places in South America where small villages of people had inbred for centuries, are littered with high mortality rates, dwarf like people, mental retardation is an epidemic in certain areas. Science points completely towards inbreeding as the main cause. Again this is not intended to be a racist remark, but factual based on the dissuasion.

TANG~!

PS. Moral of this post and this topic? Don't fuck your close relatives!

[Dickhead]

It's "interesting" how you never have any sources for any of your "facts."

"What does inbreeding (in the genetic sense) do? Basically, it increase the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. Technically, the animal is homozygous for that gene. The heterozygous animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene (period added here for clarity, DH). Remember that each animal (or plant, for that matter) has two copies of any given gene (two alleles at each locus, if you want to get technical), one derived from the father and one from the mother. If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor. This is neither good nor bad in itself." (emphasis added to original, DH)

Source:bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html

Animal breeders routinely produce championship animals through inbreeding (sources upon request). Of course, they also kill the inferior offspring that are produced, which is not considered socially acceptable with regard to humans in this day and age. In college, I learned that the Inca were thought to have perhaps practiced this type of "selective inbreeding," although I was also taught that no true proof existed because the Inca lacked any form of paper and thus had no real recorded history. But it would stand to reason, since it is well accepted that the Inca Empire had no jails, preferring instead to impose the death penalty for virtually all transgressions.

Of course, even earlier, in my primary education, I learned to construct complete and coherent sentences.

[Joe Zop]

actually, gt, your examples really don't necessarily say much about inbreeding in any concrete or conclusive way -- certainly not so science "points completely" toward it. the ills you ascribe to arctic indians or remote south american areas can also be caused by environmental factors such as poor nutrition and healthcare, among other things.

no argument that in-breeding can cause a higher than normal level of defects or pronounced physical tendencies -- both good and bad -- and certainly access to a bigger gene pool generally but not always means a hardier species. but grandiose conclusions need to be placed within a clear context.

dh, it's certainly not [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128) for you unless you're related to the sisters. and from my perspective you most certainly do have a substantial obligation to do all four, preferably at once, if only to give some sort of doublemint litmus test.

[GettingTang]

We are not talking about an occasional dog breeder allowing inbreeding, or the occasional oakie who screws his cousin. We are talking about hundreds, even thousands of years of limited blood lines! You guys are comparing apples to oranges here. It's not rocket science. There are many examples of areas of the world where limited blood lines were available. These people are typically, under developed, have mental disabilities and numerous other ailments not seen at higher percentage rates, like seen in these areas.

It's not even a matter for argument, it's already documented and well known among scientists. Even some arctic Indian and South American tribal members have addressed these issues. The reason it's not talked about so openly and mainstream, is because of political correctness.


TANG~!

[Dickhead]

If there is so much documentation, why not provide some? And if you are going to use ethnic slurs, try to get them right: it's Okie.

And, it's not "an occasional dog breeder ALLOWING inbreeding"; it's a wide spread and deliberate practice throughout MANY species' breeders, for exactly the reason I gave earlier: it accentuates favorable traits.

[GettingTang]

If you want ample proof, all you need to do is look at (for example) Eskimo, genealogy trees, you won't go back more then a generation before you see numerous cross breeding, in fact, they all eventually do within two-three generations. Once again it's not rocket science, it's well known.

I do not say these things out of hatred. I find most people of Indian, Eskimo, etc., etc., to be among the friendliest people in the world. However, they do have numerous issue regarding their race. It stems from a limited pool of reproductively. It's not like they did something wrong or should be considered less of a people. It's just the way it was!

You wait and see, with the mapping of the human Genome sequencing complete, soon the world will be ridding many defects associated with genetics. Estimates all point towards humans living to be 140-160 years of age on average by the year 2050! And on up from there. We missed the boat by a few generations, as most people in the 30's can expect to only live to the mid 90s!

Over the next 30 years the breakthroughs in science associated with medical and perfect genetic reproduction, including human organs, will be mind boggling!

TANG~!

PS. Thanks for the spelling lesson!

[Dickhead]

You are committing a classic error in logic known as post hoc ergo propter hoc, or "B follows A and therefore A caused B." I don't know why I bother with you, but since you bother me I guess I will continue.

"It rains a lot here after it gets dark, so darkness causes rain."

"Eskimos (Inuit or Alaskan Native) have a limited gene pool AND have a high rate of birth defects SO the birth defects MUST be caused by inbreeding."

Umm, no. They also have a high rate of alcoholism which could certainly be a cause of birth defects. They also have high unemployment leading to poverty, a diet limited in variety, poor access to pre- and post-natal care, and so forth. Any and all of these could cause the high rate of defects that you allege.

Re your "dwarf like people": Peoples from very cold climates or those who live at extremely high altitudes evolve to have short, squatty bodies with an insulating layer of fat to keep from fucking FREEZING to death.

Re your "two thousand times the defects of other ethnicity's [sic]": That is just a typical baseless exaggeration that you pulled out of your ass, and can not support.

[GettingTang]

Indian people have only been subject to alcohol for about 200 years max, American Indians and Eskimos have only had access to Alcohol since we got here! Eskimos have only been drinking for about 80 years max. This further proves I am right and so is modern science. It's also is scientifically proven that Eskimos and Indians alike do not tolerate alcohol well. The reason is they have only had 2-4 generations to adapt to it within their genetics, which are limited as we discussed earlier. Europeans on the other hand have been consuming alcohol for thousands of years! Therefore we have adapted genetically better to handle alcohol then Indians and Eskimos!

Also, it is of my opinion the short comings you listed in your last post, are DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTED TO THE LIMITED GENETIC GENE POOL THEY HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TOO! You're last post completely agreed with me, without you even knowing it.

TANG~!

[Dickhead]

Yes, your opinion and not scientific proof of any kind. I won't bother with you any more as you have proven my point quite adequately.

[Prokofiev]

". . . Europeans on the other hand have been consuming alcohol for thousands of years! Therefore we have adapted genetically better to handle alcohol then Indians and Eskimos! "


Yes, I believe it is a scientific fact that the Irish have genetically adapted to easily handle huge volumes of alcohol. References available upon request . . .

Cheers . . . -P

[Joe Zop]

thanks, dickhead, for amplifying and giving examples to my point. your logic lesson is dead on, though it appears to be wasted.

gt, eskimos have most certainly been drinking for more than eighty years -- that statement is complete and utter malarkey and shows you don't know a damn thing about any of this. heck, the alaskan gold rush was further back than that! commercial american whaling contact took place back in the 1850s and alcohol was certainly part of the deal then. there was previous contact with russian sailors in the 17th century, and very probably with the chinese even earlier, and the russians introduced "firewater" at least as early as the 1720s. commercial whaling ventures and gold miners devastated the economies and traditions of many eskimo tribes, and this led to starvation, illness, and the kinds of effects you list. and let's face it, in addition to alcohol, westerners also brought tons of disease which didn't help the process either.

these tribes have also been the lucky recipients of ongoing brutality and economic [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) -- the aleuts, for example, were reduced by mass murder and enslavement by the russians from an estimate of around 25,000 in the 1700s to a tenth of that by the 1830s. there are very, very few tribes which haven't been either forcibly resettled or had their processes completely disrupted by the coming of "civilization." it wasn't until the 1930s that these tribes were even quasi-safe from a kind of genocidal extinction from this kind of stuff -- and all that's got nothing whatsoever to do with genetics. talking about the effects of the gene pool over thousands of years when these tribes have been faced with a drastic reduction in that pool primarily since the influx of western civilization is completely silly.

and in any event, you're completely off-base in saying there's some sort of genetic basis for indian alcohol problems -- that is simply a stereotype, like so much of the rest of what you've posted. the science in fact proves exactly the opposite of what you posted, as numerous studies have shown that native americans metabolize alcohol exactly the same as does any other group. (only one study ever reported differently, and that one was roundly criticized as being highly flawed.)

the bottom line is that anything that looks at the physical and social problems of members of these groups and tries to make a statement also has to look at the social history of the group. using the ills of groups such as this -- when even the us commission on civil rights once printed an article titled, "how to exploit and destroy a people: the case of the alaskan native" -- and saying it's clearly all genetics is utter hooey.

the whole idea of groups such as this being "predisposed" to problems is a nice convenient way of dismissing the effects of colonization and poor socioeconomic conditions. it's like saying all poor people are lazy. your posts remind me of that wonderful quote from barry switzer -- "some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple."

(sorry, but you pushed one of my buttons here -- i spent a fair amount of time reading eskimo history and literature, as the latter expresses some truly different ways of looking at the world.)

[Dickhead]

But I think Eskimo Pies have only been around for about 80 years or so, since refrigeration was invented by Al Gore in 1924. Primitive refrigeration was used by FBI directors J. Paul Getty and Ezra Taft Benson to disguise the time of President Harding's death and conceal the fact that he was with a transsexual Cuban prostitute at the time he died. Gore then reverse engineered this technology with the help of numerous Indian engineers, who had obtained H1-B visas, putting honest, hard-working Irish immigrants out of work. This led to a narrowed gene pool of helpless Irish alcoholics, which led to the establishment of the Irish Free State in the same year, 1924. Interestingly, prostitution was legal and encouraged in the early years of the Irish Free State, but most Irish were too drunk to take advantage of it.

All these facts prove conclusively that if you cross an Irish with an Eskimo, the children will never run out of ice for their drinks.

[Rock Dog]

Hmmm, let me see if I've got this right. This is the forum where we are supposed to discuss the morality of prostitution. I go away for a day or so and when I come back all I can see are a bunch of posts talking about Eskimos, inbreeding, birth defects and retardation. I don't see how this relates. Uh oh, maybe it's because I'm inbred.

Just kidding,

Rock

[GettingTang]

Sure there were isolated incidents where alcohol passed by an Eskimo prior to 80 years ago, but the fact is 99.99% of Eskimo never knew such a thing existed or had access to it prior to the 1920s and you know it. Your attempting to twist the facts around.

So you're going to sit here and try and tell me there was a salon on every corner in 1720 for the Eskimos now aren't you Joe? You know what I meant, this is nothing more then a classic case of twisting the facts. Not to mention a lot of copy and pasting!

[GettingTang]

And who the hell cares if they metabolize Alcohol at the same rate. This proves nothing! We all have a liver and kidneys. It's how it affects the brain and nervous system. Anything that alters a human's chemistry on a regular basis will change the genetic coding in future generations. It's called evolution! Sure this is on a small scale, but thousands of years of drinking by most races on earth, while a few others never had any, is bond to produce a measurable difference.

And another thing Joe, you may have read an old, outdated, dusty, book or two on Eskimos, I lived with them for 30 + years!

TANG~!

[Rabo Verde]

You guys don't get out much, do you?

[Domino]

1. Japanese have a well documented genetic averson to alcohol; they get red like lobsters after a few but they do not get violent like the European savages. There is some truth in the genetic argument, though America's genocide policies towards all and sundry strengthens the nurture argument.

2. Eskimos are the world's best fucks and I am simply amazed no one has brought this up. I still get a hard on thinking of Eskimo ladies I fucked in the 1970s. I can honestly say it was the best sex of my life. And I have led many lives.

[MeatMan]

I had an Eskimo woman once. I visited Montreal about 8 years ago, Picked her up on St Catherine St. Did the duty in a Toyota Camary. That one I will NOT forget. Wild fucker. We were sweating buckets!

[Sporadic]

Gentlemen,

Fascinating if unscientific reports here lately, ;) but it begs the question; What has all this to do with the morality of prostitution?

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Guru]

There is in fact a genetic predisposition to alcoholism. Alcoholics frequently (although not always) exhibit a liver dysfunction resulting in the build up of excess tetrahydroisoquinoline (THQ) in the brain. THQ, bonds with alcohol molecules and causes the brain to react to alcohol as it would a narcotic, creating a much stronger propensity to addiction than in a person without this genetic trait. The genes linked to this behavior have been mapped. Interestingly, Native Americans as a group have the second highest prevalance of this gene. The highest? Prokofiev hit it on the nose--Irish Catholics.

Don't attack me for stereotyping. Stereotypes often have some basis in fact. No one would maintain that all Native Americans or Irish Catholics are alcoholics. But many members of those groups do have a genetic predisposition which increases the chances that their consumption of alcohol will lead to alcoholism.

[My Alias]

To get back on topic somewhat, there was a big sex slavery bust in Vermont where several AMPs were raided, http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20040723-0036-internationalprostitution.html. Maybe we can discuss prostitution and sex slavery rings.

By the way, having worked in several Alaska Native villages I tend to feel Joe Zop's and Dickhead's statements are much more accurate than Getting Tang's when it comes to Eskimos and alcoholism. As a regular poster to the Alaska boards, I've seen Getting Tang's tendency to exagerate just to make an argument. If someone really is interested, I can PM you links to several studies on the topic.

[Joe Zop]

Gee, GT, I'll be happy not to correct your statements if you won't say silly things such as, "Eskimos have only been drinking for about 80 years max. This further proves I am right..." It's absolutely well documented that in the 1860s, prior to the introduction of reindeer, alcohol was having a bad effect on Alaskan natives and their culture. And alcohol was used for barter and trade in the Canadian territories much earlier.

Please give me a citation -- any citation or documentation at all -- for your 80 years ago statement. Or for any of your other grandiose statements of fact. Or is this more "secret" information like your undisclosed software which proves who wrote what WSG post? Did living there for thirty years somehow give you magical insight into what happened a century-plus ago?

More likely it just helped you become the prejudiced genius you clearly are. I remember quite well your blanket indictments of all Arabs in the Thai section only a month ago.

You lived with Eskimos for thirty years and no doubt spent all that time studying their genetics, right? Because you sure as hell didn't study their history. I've certainly heard this kind of stuff before -- by people who claim to possess the same wonderful kinds of insight about what Blacks are all about because they've had to live with them for X number of years. Let's see: I grew up in a primarily African-American town, went to schools where I was the minority, etc. It sure as hell didn't give me some sort of x-ray vision so I could see and interpret the DNA of my neighbors.

Above all, there's nothing like ignoring the gist of the arguments, as per usual, which is that pretty well all of the ills you cite can be chalked up to social rather than genetic issues.

As it happens, though I didn't live for thirty years with Eskimos, I've had extensive work and contact with various Native American tribes throughout the country over the past fifteen years, including Alaskan Natives, and have given workshops and have spoken at a number of their national gatherings. And I like to study the cultures and histories of those I come in contact with, unlike you, so I have some idea of who I'm talking with.

And point taken, Sporadic. We've gotten a fair way from the topic, though that tends to happen in this thread at times. I'll rein myself back in, deerly.

[Cash Works]

tang,

go back to your 12 step program, please.

dickhead,

by all means, do all four at the same time. if they're into each other, they'll be committing [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128), not you, but since they can't impregnate each other, does it matter?

joe zop & dickhead,

as for your argument that inbreeding also promotes desireable traits, that may be true - ie, your own example of animal breeding. however, in animal breeding, as you also pointed out - those with undesireable traits are destroyed. unfortunately, when developing a new breed of animal (dogs, for instance), numerous generations will be destroyed before the desired traits have been successfully selected. more flawed results are produced in this process than favorable results.

the problem with inbreeding is that the undesireable traits are more likely to be enhanced early on than the desireable traits. recessive genes get reinforced and become dominant - genes that are already dominant may be duplicated, but this doesn't make them more dominant - dominant/recessive is basically like saying it's switched on or switched off. until very recently (last 50 years or so), there was little or no social stigma associated with destroying animals that were the result of an unsuccessful breeding experiment or that no longer served a purpose (greyhounds, that caught the rabbit, for instance).

humans however, are not so easily disposed of - there has long been social/religious/legal restraints against "disposal" of humans in our society, whether they're flawed or not. the ancient hawaiians, however used to kill "flawed" babies (birthmarks or other noticeable deformities) soon after their birth - it's reasonable to assume that most groups of people had similar practices at some point in their existence either before there was any sort of written record, or when social views changed, that any record of this practice may have been destroyed to cover up an embarassing part of their history.

the reason i suggested that religious leaders were behind marriage is basically due to the fact that until fairly recently, probably within the last 2-300 years, religious clerics (regardless of the religion) were, with a few exceptions (newton, socrates, etc), the most highly educated people on the planet (and they tried like hell to keep it that way). they also wielded tremendous power over the masses - "do what i say, or you"ll be eternally damned!" or something along those lines. i believe, due to their broader knowledge, that they would have been the most likely group to make a connection between "flawed" babies and [CodeWord130] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord130) couplings.

cw

[GettingTang]

I'm dropping this subject, there is no reason to it. Just remember I was only responding to another's racist tone towards Indian people, then you people jumped on me.

Here is the facts about me.

I love Eskimo and Indian people alike. I personally do not view them as anything less then a beautiful people. Most Eskimos I have known are wonderful people, full of smiles and happiness.

I do however, maintain obvious difference associated with their race outside of the just the expected cultural differences. It might not be polite or politically correct to bring them up, but if you lived among them for 30+ years, they would be obvious to anyone!

TANG~!

[Prokofiev]

" . . . The genes linked to this behavior have been mapped. Interestingly, Native Americans as a group have the second highest prevalance of this gene. The highest? Prokofiev hit it on the nose--Irish Catholics."

Wow, even my jokes have a firm scientific basis! I'm good at this.

But more to the point, how about Irish Atheist Mongers??? Is it the Irish part . . . or the Catholic part? Just wondering . . .

Cheers, -P

[Rock Dog]

this is a different topic that i've been thinking about in the last couple of days.

i was reading a posting by one of the senoir members on the weekend. in it he talked about encountering a pimp, who offered him the services of a girl. he declined the offer stating in his posting that he disliked pimps in general.

i've never encountered one myself, so i don't really know how i would react. this still got me thinking on the subject. the very word pimp has a vaguely loathsome feel about it and yet they exist. therefore, they must somehow serve some function or they wouldn't exist.

one the one hand, they exploit the girls by taking some of the money for themselves. perhaps they serve some protective function or help secure a "higher level" of clients for the girls.

i haven't been able to form much of an opinion on this subject as yet. since this would seem to be an issue that is closely related to the morality of prostitution (the subject of this forum), i was hoping some of the wsg members might want to share their thoughts, beliefs and opinions on this topic.

or we can still keeping talking about eskimos, indians, [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128), alcoholism and genetics etc. (lol)

rock

[Rubber Nursey]

looks to me like i've returned just in time. irish drinking habits?? [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128)?? eskimo friggin' pies??? hmmmm obviously you guys are in desperate need of an ex hooker to mouth off at. (at least that would be kind of prostitution related!)

can i just say while i'm at it - i think the discussion you had a while back re: sex workers vs. marriage, was really sad. some other posters already said what i would have said - about marriage being incomparable to an hour with a sex worker - but i'd also like to add a couple of things from a female point of view.

a) it's distressing that some of you consider a wife/woman's value only in terms of how willingly she puts out. (can i also mention here that you guys are complaining about how hard - and expensive - it is to get a woman to sleep with you, and yet many of you would call that same woman a sl*t if she did put out on the first night?)

b) you really can't compare the economics of the two relationships. sex work is a commercial transaction - a service in exchange for payment. marriage is (well, it should be) a relationship based on reciprocity - eg. you support me financially while i stay home and raise our children, etc. working out what it 'costs' you to have sex with your wife doesn't take into account all the other great things she does for you, aside from sex.

c) if you go to a sex worker with a raging fever and chickenpox, she will throw you out the door, regardless of how much money you're holding in your hand. if you go to your wife with a fever and the chickenpox, not only will she probably still have sex with you, but she will run you a bath, rub you down with calamine lotion and make you chicken soup. surely the differences are obvious! :)

[Domino]

RN: Let me welcome you back as I head for the door. I would be interested to your reply to these points:

1. Power: it is about power and desperation. These will determine the wife's/hooker's reaction.
2. Commercial: Yes, but sometimes, as in Thailand, that gets blurred.
3. Trust: How can a"normal" man trust a "normal" prostitute. A prostitute is not a butcher or a greengrocer who might "cheat" you a little. The trust people are looking for in marriage goes a bit deeper. And prostitutes cannot be trusted at that deeper level by "normal" men.

The above is typed in haste. I meet lots of Thai prostitutes, I like them. But I could never trust them. And they should probably never trust me.

Also, as regards the American women thread: there are a lot of bitter guys posting here. The divorce courts in Australia and Ameircan have made many bitter against the wmen they should love and maintain. But a prostitute? Never!

Your comments please. I wil check in again in a few hours and then I am, weather permitting, gone!

Finally, iti s a pity there are not more non paying informed people posting. The board might be a lot more informative if it were.
Have you any comments to make on the photos in the photo sections? On hte photos, not on the childish debates that might be tere?

[Rubber Nursey]

Hi Domino - and thanks for the welcome :)

1) Power: In a 'real' marriage - I believe - there should be NO power issues. It should be based on trust and reciprocity, where no one person holds power over the other. If one party DOES hold power over the other, whether it's the man or the woman, I would consider it an abusive relationship.

In a commercial sex transaction (and I'm talking with a person who is selling sex of their own free will, not in a forced situation) it is the sex worker who has ALL the power. She has the right to decide who she says yes to, what service she performs and where she will do it. Even if she is 'compelled' to say yes - for example, if she is desperate for the money - the decision to go forward is still hers, because if the CLIENT was to make the decision for her, it would be sexual assault.

2) Commercial: Even if the lines are blurred - and I've been there myself, many times - it is still a commercial transaction. Would that girl have gone home with you if she wasn't a hooker? Do you know her real name? Have you met her parents? Can you ring her in the middle of the night and cry about your father's illness? I know that some P4P situations cross over from business transaction to friendship - or even to a close relationship - but it is still very different from a marriage.

3) Trust: For the record, in MY world (Australia), the majority of sex workers would never consider ripping a client off. (Those that do make the rest of us look bad and they should be spanked with a very large wooden paddle...and NOT GET PAID FOR IT!!) However, regardless of which country you're in, you should never automatically assume that just because she's a hooker, she must be untrustworthy. Are all priests paedophiles? Are all cops on the take? Are all Arabs terrorists? Just because there are a few bad eggs in the group, doesn't mean they are all that way.

But that's beside the point. With regard to YOUR statement...of course you don't trust a sex worker. And she shouldn't trust you. You should always give each other the benefit of the doubt, but when it boils down to it - you are strangers. You have no love, no honesty, no past and no future together. You are paying her for sex. She is giving you sex for money. End of story. That's one of the main differences between marriage and sex work - and demonstrates exactly why the two cannot be compared.

[Domino]

RN: So, at last, another little port in a storm which is curently raging here. Unfortunately the clock is now very much against me. Let me go through your points:

1. Power: Usually, men do call the shots, at least externally. The quirky thing about prostitution is that the lever moves in favour of the provider. Thai hookers call their clients customers btw which I find very informative. You fuck a lady, a "sweeetheart" for a few days and she calls you a customer. Great.

Of course lots of situations are forced. Crackheads and the like need the money. I think a lot of guys get a kick out of abusing hookers. Read Looking for Leftie on the Wisconsin board; he writes ficton but he has a big following as lots of guys get off on treating hookers like shit. I don't at one superfluous level.

Sometimes I like hardened Western hookers but only because the rules are a bit different. I could never love a prostitute:(

Your general comments are right on the money and I won't nitpick them. But sex between a client/prostitute is fantasy, a poor Disneyland. You previously described me as a brothel rat and you are right. I have fucked everywhere, like a sex crackhead. But it is all bs. I go to Thailand but after a few days, the hookers bore me. If you ever get the money to spare, you should go to Pattaya. It is a sad place.

[Dickhead]

Ha ha. Here in Argentina, in a commercial sex transaction the man has all the power unless he is incredibly stupid.

Viva la Republica.

[Rubber Nursey]

Domino

You'll never convince me that clients 'call the shots' in a P4P situation. It may feel that way to you...but that's all part of the fantasy, right? She's your plaything - you're the boss. But you wouldn't even be there if she hadn't said yes to the booking in the first place. And remember I am only talking about sex workers who are there by CHOICE - not girls in 'forced' prostitution or sex slavery. Sex workers control the booking. If the client was in control (and therefore taking the choices AWAY from the sex worker) it would become sexual assault/sex slavery/exploitation/whatever...not commercial sex.

And I think it's really sad that you could 'never love a prostitute'. Really sad. Love appears in the strangest places and a person's occupation rarely has much to do with it.

Just a question - if she WASN'T a hooker, but she had had no-strings attached sex with lots of men for FREE...would you date her then??

[Rubber Nursey]

Heyya Dickhead :)

So let's put that theory to the test...

If she says 'I don't do anal'...what power do you have to veto her decision? If you do it anyway, it's sexual assault. If you don't do it, she has the power. If you say 'Fine, I'm going to go find a girl who WILL do it', she still has the power because she stuck to her guns and made you choose between her way or the highway.

[Dickhead]

Well Rubbie Domino has some issues and I could love a prostitute but the idea of the prostitute being in control and all else being a fantasy is NOT the reality in Latin America. In fact you would struggle to make any money here. Supply so far exceeds demand that it is a buyer's market all the way. Now morality-wise it would probably be better if the truth lay somewhere in between. Maybe that would be somewhere in Europe? Don't know, don't care. Men rule the roost here in South America and that is just the way it is.

[Domino]

"If I wasn't a German soldier, a German soldier said...'

I can only speak for me. I have dated lots of hookers. I like their company. But they are my playthings. I don't hire them for the sex as that is mechanical. They are like bar friends, casual acquaintances. There is no emotional involvement and nor can/should there be. The guys who get rolled over in Thailand are guys who put an emotional stake into their relationship with a prostitute. That is an oxymoron.

I have had more than 30 years' experience with prostitutes and I have discussed everything under the sun with them, sometimes at advanced levels as in Denmark and the former Soviet Union. But there is a wall between us, a wall that can never be removed. And I value that wall.

Many guys who go to places like Thailand no longer monger in the countries they live in. Know wh? Because there is more control and more interaction (GFE they call it) in Thailand.

I am a social snob of sorts. I like my women to be doing something, as John Kerry does. (Laura Bush would bore me and I would bore her;) The Thai women are nice. But all they do is sex, sleep and maybe drugs.

Let's say you were my gf. What would we do, talk about? Your kids, your job? I would admire your bravery, in raising your kids, and in putting up with shit, we might have some good sexual encountser, but what else? Nothing.

Sure, life is a one way journey, a ship into the sunset. But the captain picks the crew. Who would want a pirate as skipper, and a Jolly Roger as mascot? So to answer your question, I personally could never have a real relationship with a real prostitute.

[Dickhead]

Naah naah naah if she says she doesn't do anal or BBBJ or dress up like a nun or whatever I never force anything. Come on. But my point is that here in Buenos Aires, taking for example the place I was in tonight, if she does not do anal (I don't either) or BBBJ or whatever, I only have to go like half a meter to find one who will, and will like it, and be grateful for the opportunity.

And that gives her NO power because she will go home empty handed or empty pussied or empty somethinged.

Again we have the situation where a very nice and intelligent young lady is unfortunately not well traveled and so judges everything by Western Australian standards. BTW I just had the pleasure of escorting a gentleman from Perth around BA and he ran into significant problems due to his habit of always paying in advance and expecting Aussie-like honesty in return. Of course he was dealing with chicas from the Dominican Republic at the time and they hosed him big time.

[Dickhead]

Well Skinless, I am having a lot of fun here in BA having fake relationships with real prostitutes, real relationships with fake prostitutes, and fake relationships with fake prostitutes. I am not too sure I am ready for a real relationship with a real prostitute but I had one last year and it did not suck any worse than any other "real" relationships I have had.

Prostitution here differs from most other places due to the relative lack of stigma.

[Rubber Nursey]

"Let's say you were my gf. What would we do, talk about? Your kids, your job? I would admire your bravery, in raising your kids, and in putting up with shit, we might have some good sexual encountser, but what else? Nothing."

That's a pretty stereotyped evaluation of my character. Did you know I can paint? Did you know I recently completed writing my first novel and have started writing a second? Did you know I've just started learning Irish Gaelic? I could talk with you about anything from politics to computer games to the great real estate slump of '88!

What I used to do for work says nothing about who I actually am.

[Dickhead]

Well I am a really lousy fuck but I can cook.

[Domino]

RN: I would say you are dealing with gentlemen but you are not. Currently you are dealing with one Dickhead and me (and I am not a gentleman)

On the subject of anal and Thailand: I often ask the ladies for anal, even though I don't care what they do and I don't really care whether they will give me anal or not. They usually say no which is more than fine with me. Then they tell me that most guys are insisting on anal but as they don't do it, they are going to bed hungry. Then I offer to pay more and they think: should I do this or not? The same applies with bareback sex, another isuse you concern yourself about. I bargain hard and tip well as it is all chump change and Dickhead's supply and demand theories hold in Thailand as well as in Argentina.

For the record, many Thai hookers will go bareback as most farang want it. Yesterday I posted a few mouth herpes photos but removed them as protesters want to be entertained not educated.

[Domino]

OK RN: Good reply, excellent reply, Congratulations. But I still don't think we will be an item. It takes two to tango.

Again, I like the company of prostitutes. They see a lot of life, most of it bad. I have learned a lot about life from prostitutes.

How is the novel going? What is it about? Do you know that I recently met Juice Spike and then went back to my hotel and threw my ms of a novel into a waste paper basket? Juice Sike said Why? I said why not?

If we knew each other in Perth, we might become friends, platonic or otherwise. I would certainly admire many aspects of your character and might value your friendship. But beyond that, absolutely not.

(I was going to make some smart assed remark to Dickhead but that would be inappropriate right now)

Ps: Battle Royale: Why are young kids killng each other over that game?

[Rubber Nursey]

Dickhead,

"Again we have the situation where a very nice and intelligent young lady is unfortunately not well traveled and so judges everything by Western Australian standards".

I specifically qualified the preceding statements with:
a) this only applies to women who are working by choice, and
b) in MY part of the world (Australia).

Stop riding my arse, mate. ;)

PS. People are always very quick to pull me up if I say something that relates specifically to Australia, but everyone else is also making observations (and often sweeping generalisations) based on their own experiences. Most posters say that hookers can't be trusted, they have diseases, they are impoverished/victimised/exploited, they are addicts, etc...that might be true for them but that isn't usually the case in MY experience. It works both ways. You can't spank me for generalising when everyone else is doing it too.

[Domino]

RN: Isaac Newton, the second most intelligent man who ever lived, spent all his working life near London. He was offered the "chance" to go to Russia - big Starbucks/roubles. He declined. He said he could get all he wanted and needed in London.

Miss Marpole, one of Agatha Christie's great detectives, related every crime she came across to her village. Moral: If you use Perth right, there is a galaxy there. A pity you were not with myself and JuiceSpike in Beergarten. There is simply too much material in the world.

Dickhead did not mean to take a low shot at you. Read his shit to me (or Skinless) which is funny and had me laughing.

You have a lot to give the right man. But it ain't me babe, it ain't me you're lookin for.

PS: Isaac was second in intelligence only to John Skinless who met a tragic death but was reincarnated as the satanically evil Domino.

And please explain this Battle Royale shit to me.

[Joe Zop]

Welcome back, RN -- hope you'll be here regularly! Thanks for your comments on the marriage issue, which as usual I find to point.

And unfortunately, now that you're out in the hinterlands and out of the biz, all chances anyone here ever had of spanking you have become even more remote than before :) ... unless, of course, someone is willing to break through that apparently impermeable client/hooker or ex-hooker barrier. (And the comments on that issue certainly give weight to your point of view in a discussion here long ago regarding whether or not you should reveal your professional history to potential love interests.)

I guess I'm in the minority here -- I choose my friends and lovers based on their personalities, levels of intelligence and character, etc., but not on their professions. I just don't see the issue, honestly -- if it's the person for me, it's the person for me. That's a tough enough equation already.

[Wicked SH]

RN what kind of crack are you smoking girl? ;-) I want you to buy me some.

That had to be one of the most idealistic posts I have seen on here, especially about marriage and western women.

1st My view is that the point of marriage is children, period. So if a wife isn't putting out then she has no ground to complain even one time about a man drilling a prostitute. I sincerely doubt many of us would consider a woman a **** simply because she put out. (On a separate but related topic, why it is that American media and conversation always say that women have higher sex drives than men. It is simply not true or at least not with my friends and me.)

2nd If marriage doesn't have an economic basis why are there so many poor divorced men on here and in the world? Man gets married (he got suckered into believing all that romantic psycho babble that love is forever and that she will take care of him and he her crap,) woman doesn't put out, gives man hard time about everything, man divorces woman (having popped the romantic bubble,) woman hires lawyer, lawyer tells judge the man is the reason the relationship failed, judge gives woman everything the man has made.

3rd I have a lot of married friends, and have had a number of committed live-in gfs. In the experience of my friends and my personal experience most women wouldn't ever raise a finger to help a sick friend/husband. That is not all married women, just a majority of them. At best they will bring you a dinner, but don't expect them to stay the night in the hospital like my mother did for my father. I know this for certain because I have stayed with sick married friends in the hospital because their wives/gfs only visit a few minutes a day. They returned the favor for me when my live-ins wouldn't even visit. I won't bore the board with all the details, but that is what my personal experience is with American women. I was very generous and caring of my live-ins so don't think I or my friends were assholes we're not.

American women have become leeches, sucking the will to live of the American man. Because divorce laws are stacked against the man America has destroyed the family unit. If the morons in congress had seen what would happen when they made it so men get screwed in divorce they would have not have given women such power in divorce. With the divorce rate over 50% it is obvious that they failed in preventing divorce. If women were looking at not being automatically able to ruin a man and take his money and kids they would be less likely to divorce, they would put out more, they would not give the man so much shit. But because they have been given so much power they don't consider thinking twice about divorce.

So in order to tie this in with this forums topic I say this. In America and most western countries the governments are based on a series of checks and balances so no division becomes to powerful. Unfortunately those governments have destroyed or at least made very difficult the checks and balances for marriage. By giving so much power to women during divorce and outlawing prostitution they have created a crippled society where the divorce rate has skyrocketed and men have become wuses.

Men are simple creatures, we like to work and provide for the family, we like to come home watch some tv and have a drink. Get the wife or girlfriend to have sex, have some conversations about whatever, go to sleep and repeat the next day. We want to buy some toys when we have money to pay for it. As long as those things are done and we see our savings accounts increase so we can plan on retirement we are happy. So if the divorce rate is so high, with men knowing they are going to get screwed obviously it isn’t our fault as much as the media try to make it sound. No man as long as his basic needs are met wants to loose everything unless he can’t stand to be with her, and we are not talking about minor dislike. My view is that women read books and watch TV that is designed to cause conflict at home. How to tell if your husband is cheating on you? Is your husband a control freak? Blah Blah Blah. They see their friends blow money on things so they do the same, IE why do women need so many pairs of shoes, pants, etc. So she then feels that she has to prove that her husband/boyfriend is better than her friends, and if he doesn’t live up to it then there is hell to pay. Men become tired of all the tirades and the constant stream of arguments based on why haven’t you bought me flowers, why haven’t you done what Sally’s husband does, etc. The mariage failes.

My 2 cents

Wicked

[Freeler]

RN,

'c) If you go to a sex worker with a raging fever and chickenpox (must admit, no chickenpox - F) she will throw you out the door, regardless of how much money you're holding in your hand. If you go to your wife with a fever and the chickenpox, not only will she probably still have sex with you, but she will run you a bath, rub you down with calamine lotion and make you chicken soup. Surely the differences are obvious!'
Well, in fact, I met many B200 prostitutes in Thailand who, according to your description, are now, officially, my wife.

Domino,

'The Thai women are nice. But all they do is sex, sleep and maybe drugs.'
How could you forget the laundry?

[Domino]

RN: I wish you well wherever you are. I think it would be poetic justice if you were the only "regular" contributor here who ended up doing well on a personal front.

There are many divers post here on a regular basis. The Bible tells us of some discovering the mysteries of God in the deep. I simple love the broad expanse of ocean from the Northern Star to the Southern Cross, gazing upwards at those stars and dreaming dreams as old as the universe itself. If you are now in the outback, that, with your children, could be a great blessing.


Now I'm on that foreign shore,

heave away haul away,

I'll drink to the girl that I adore

Bound for West Austalia



Now fare ye well now fare ye well,

heave away haul away

Sweet news of my Xxxxx I will tell

Bound for West Australia.

[Rubber Nursey]

Hiya Wicked :)

I know it was idealistic- I even made a point of saying that in my post. Believe me, I know that marriage isn't always what its cracked up to be. You're talking to a girl with several sunk relationships and a very messy divorce behind her! I was just comparing a 'stereotypical' marriage to a 'stereotypical' P4P scenario.

But don't forget - for plenty of people out there, their marriage IS like that! They have the wife, the kids, the white picket fence and they're as happy as a pig in shit. Just 'coz people like you and me have had crappy experiences, doesn't mean everyone has. And even though I'm pretty bitter and jaded when it comes to men (ok, VERY bitter and jaded!) I'd still like to think that there's someone out there for everyone. Just call me Julie Andrews. *grin*

[Your Guest]

I totally agree with a member here that books and T.V. esp. that which is seen and read by womwn is full of abnormal relationships and behaviour. Women percieve that behaviour as normal just because is takes place infront of their eyes in their drawing room, or whereever the T.V. is.

There are whiners here whose wives/girlfriends just sit at home plotting as they say a rip off.

This is what J. Blurb said here a long time ago (on 15-7-2004)

"Better than a prenup, just pick a woman with a good job who is at least your financial equal or more, and NEVER allow her to quit to stay home and become your financial dependant, not even to have children. That way if theres a split, the half she gets may actually be her own and alimony may not even be considered. Besides, I've often noticed the less a woman works, the more demanding and controlling she will attempt to become of her man. Busting your balls will ultimately become her full time job. "

Can we have opinions of gentlemen whose wives earn as much or more than they do, on this aspect of marriage.

[Your Guest]

dear members,

i aplogise for repeating this, but please forgive me and can we have comments on a few points that i am raising. these are in my opinion about the relative benefits of marriage. dear rn and others can you add to this list.

there have been a couple of posts that reacted but we didnt have have anybody going at this point by point.

can we please have mentioned in the post

a. sex and marital status of the poster.

b. the financial status vis a vis the partner, ie does your partner earn more than you do?

c. whether parents stayed married or seperated

then may be we can have our own little statistic here, and arrive at some kind of conclusion, about the acceptability of marriage based on the background of a person

1. marriage as an institution for bringing children up.

2. marriage as a vehicle towards social acceptance, a 50 year old married man has greater acceptance as compared to a 50 year old unmarried man (or woman).

3. the pleasure (yes and the pain) of parent hood ( this is not the same as 1. above as 1. is from the perspective of the child.

4. the now well documented benefits of marriage towards good health.

5. the convenience of sex without the fear of breaking laws and the subsequent trouble involved, the guilt of immoral behaviour, without the exposure to s. t. d. and h. i. v.

6. prostitution usually also runs in tandem with activities auch as drug running, child prostitution, kidnapping and forced prostitution, and other criminal activities such as illegal trafficking. illicit alcohol etc.. it perpetuates the nexus between criminals, politicians and corrupt bureaucracy. a share of every rupee (or $, or euro, etc.) that you pay for p4p, could end up supporting these activities.

7. und so weider (and so on.)

love,

yogesh

[Rock Dog]

Yogesh,

You made some statements in your last post in favor of marriage. Some of the points stated the benefits of marriage and some of them stated the drawbacks of prostitution.

Personally, I thought that you were starting to "reach" a little bit by the time you got to point 6. Drug running, illicit alcohol, child prostitution?? Oh please!

You need to be aware of who you are talking to here. This is a website that is mainly devoted to the pursuit of sex in exchange for money. Many of the men here have had bad experiences with marriages, divorces and with long-term girlfriends.

Personally, I am willing to admit that there are a fair number of good women out there. I also think that marriage is ok for many people. That being said, you can infer that marriage is not ok for many others. I've talked to many people about their marriages and heard stories about 40 years of arguments and disappointment.

There's so many problems. Women, and men, grow up with such selfish attitudes these days. People have such unrealistic expectations. In addition to this, women's perceptions of their role in society has undergone a great deal of change. It seems to me that, compared to men, women these days are confused and insecure. How can they be happy with anyone when they arent even happy with themselves?

So what is a man to do? Many of us prefer to dispense with the confusion and disappointment and take a more direct route. Some men do it because it's the only way they'll ever get laid. Some do it because they want to have a chance with an attractive girl once in a while. Some of us just need the variety without all the hassle.

Yes, there's some bad things that go along with prostitution, but you can say that about almost anything. Put some gas in your car, money goes to foreign govt's that support terrorism. Buy anything at Walmart, some of your money goes to a country (china) with a terrible human rights record. Walk across the street and you might step on some ants. Where should you stop?

I'll do what makes me happy. I'll try (within reason) not to do anything that makes someone else unhappy. I don't worry about what others like to do and I don't want them to impose their views on me. Do I think prostitution is a good answer? No, but it's not all bad either.

Just my point of view,

Rock

[Joe Zop]

So do you want to start the confession parade, Yogesh, since you're the one asking for such information? I've posted about my own situation in the past, but can do it again if it's warranted by the discussion.

[Rabo Verde]

Part of every dollar you spend on GASOLINE goes to support cruel tyrannical dictators and terrorists. So get a bicycle.

[Wicked SH]

Yogesh, are you in some college psyche class trying to write a thesis paper? What possibly could you want with such irrelevant information?

Life is simply not able to be categorized like that, and even then the information you receive is irrelevant. As history will tell the more man tries to comprehend complex systems the less he ends up knowing and the system ends up being perceived as even more complex. Economists try to say what will happen next in the economy, and only a random few come up with an answer that is correct, but the next economic cycle they are usually wrong. They define production in more and narrower definitions; they create adjusters to deal with the incongruities they find. Seasonal adjusters, deflators, inflators, and such are simply ways control freak economists can explain away the fact they don’t have a clue what is really happening beyond the vaguest comprehension that today the economy is going up or down.

The reality is much as I have written before. Morons, zealots, and idiots get into position of power and try to influence the course of society. In their attempts to mold the world to their image they create instabilities, bubbles, and destructive forces. Most often their attempts fail or have the opposite effect as desired. For instance take divorce in America. In the congress’ attempts to prevent divorce they created policies that actually increase it. Anytime there is a financial incentive to do something a significant portion of the population will try to take advantage of it. For instance women marry a man, but as the relationship matures she finds that the challenges of marriage are more difficult than she wants to deal with. She starts rationalizing her abuse of him by for example saying he didn’t give me a gift after he purchased the boat. Of course she didn’t perceive any value in owning the boat and acquiesced to the purchase thinking it would engender cooperation on some purchase in the future for her self. In six months she wants to buy some jewelry or a more expensive vacation. The man doesn’t think well she gave in on the boat so I will give in on this. He feels the expense unnecessary and adamantly says no. She then brings up everything the man has ever done wrong, and the boat. He then fights back by saying those things are in the past and this is now. At some point one of them begrudgingly gives in and the situation is resolved. But now the women looks at her life and thinks how bad her husband is, how much he doesn’t respect her, how well her friend Candy tells her she is treated (not understanding that Candy tells the same kind of lies about her relationship that she does, IE Jim is a great man he is so kind and always considerate, look at what he bought me) and after some number of these conflicts she starts thinking about divorce. She looks at the assets and realizes that she ends up with the children, the house, the bank accounts, stocks, and assets, in addition to child support. She thinks to herself with all this, her job, she can go out find another man a really good man and live a better life. More often than naught she ends up doing it again to some other poor fool.

Not to let us men off easily, we are as much at fault for these failed marriages in many cases, but we don’t have the economic incentive. The statistics clearly show women petition for divorce more often than men. This is simply because from a man’s perspective it is better to avoid divorce and not loose everything he has, he just tries to find whatever happiness he can in the world. This further enrages the woman who instead of treating the situation fairly sits at home watching those women shows that talk about how bad men are. She stews in her pressure cooker until she explodes with furious anger she contacts the meanest son-of-a-***** attorney she can find. Then proceeds to destroy the man she feels gave her an injustice.

The core issue is that everyone is so selfish greedy self-centered and intolerant these days. This is compounded by legal codes that give to much power to one party or the other. In such an inequitable system you can not expect people to behave rationally. As with financial bubbles things will continue becoming more out of proportion until they get so bad the bubble pops and things revert to a more normal environment.

[Rush 2112]

yogesh,
i read your post, and well, have to give my take on your 7 points.

1. marriage as an institution for bringing children up.
my parents hated me. i returned the favor by hating them back.

2. marriage as a vehicle towards social acceptance, a 50 year old married man has greater acceptance as compared to a 50 year old unmarried man (or woman).
why should i concern myself with social acceptance? am i that insecure about myself?

3. the pleasure (yes and the pain) of parent hood ( this is not the same as 1. above as 1. is from the perspective of the child.
i got my ass beat quite often, so i felt a lot of pain as a child. my parents got a lot of pleasure out of beating me.

4. the now well documented benefits of marriage towards good health.
huh????????? any study can be manipulated to get whatever results you want.

5. the convenience of sex without the fear of breaking laws and the subsequent trouble involved, the guilt of immoral behaviour, without the exposure to s. t. d. and h. i. v.
i was never married, but i was in a couple of long term realtionships. i never thought of getting sex from my girlfriends as convenient. i like breaking laws, and committing immoral behavio(u)r. those little balloon looking things rolled up neatly in their own little packages do work to stop the spread of std's

6. prostitution usually also runs in tandem with activities auch as drug running, child prostitution, kidnapping and forced prostitution, and other criminal activities such as illegal trafficking. illicit alcohol etc.. it perpetuates the nexus between criminals, politicians and corrupt bureaucracy. a share of every rupee (or $, or euro, etc.) that you pay for p4p, could end up supporting these activities.
i couldn't care less if they spent their money on crack, smack, or cracker jacks. that's the government's job to fight those other activities, i thought that's what we pay all those taxes for.

7. und so weider (and so on.)
i don't think that's hindi.

[Hizark21]

yogesh,
i read your post, and well, have to give my take on your 7 points.

1. marriage as an institution for bringing children up.
personally i am not opposed to prostitution so long as a person does not allow it to interfere with there marriage.

4. the now well documented benefits of marriage towards good health.
marriage probably does extend ones life expectancy.

5. the convenience of sex without the fear of breaking laws and the subsequent trouble involved, the guilt of immoral behaviour, without the exposure to s. t. d.

so long as one takes the normal precautions you are fairly safe..... hiv transmission is very over hyped. if you use a condom for intercourse you are very safe.

6. prostitution usually also runs in tandem with activities auch as drug running, child prostitution, kidnapping and forced prostitution, and other criminal activities such as illegal trafficking. illicit alcohol etc.. it perpetuates the nexus between criminals, politicians and corrupt bureaucracy. a share of every rupee (or $, or euro, etc.) that you pay for p4p, could end up supporting these activities.

i am definitely oppsed to child prostitution and pimping. but unless the girl is being held in brothel against her will it is ultmately her choice. if a girl is working the street it's her choice. if she has a pimp there is nothing to prevent her from catching the bus and choosing another life.

as for drugs it's the girls choice again.

[Rubber Nursey]

yogesh,

"6. prostitution usually also runs in tandem with activities auch as drug running, child prostitution, kidnapping and forced prostitution, and other criminal activities such as illegal trafficking. illicit alcohol etc.. it perpetuates the nexus between criminals, politicians and corrupt bureaucracy. a share of every rupee (or $, or euro, etc.) that you pay for p4p, could end up supporting these activities".

prostitution is not the perpetrator...it's the victim. yes, a lot of the things you mentioned seem to go hand in hand with prostitution in many places around the world. but that is because of the prostitution laws (or lack thereof), which refuse to recognise, legitimise and protect the rights of sex workers. the sex industry involves big money, vulnerable people and absolute secrecy and anonymity...what better environment for exploitation and corruption could a criminal (or cop or politician!!!) ask for?

plus, there is a difference between a sex worker - the person actually having sex for money - and a sex industry business operator (or pimp or whatever). for example, just because the brothel owner is paying off the police and those police are doing back room deals with the pollies, doesn't mean that the sex workers themselves have any involvement. if we decide not to go into that brothel because of the corrupt owner, aren't we also punishing the girl who won't be able to pay her rent without your custom?


as for the rest of the marriage discussion - i really don't want to be a part of that. that's a topic for the american women section.

[Sporadic]

yogesh: where is the causality in your argument?

water is a major component of acid rain, should we ban it?

spousal abuse takes place almost exclusively in the state of marriage, should we ban marriage?

automobiles are involved in almost 100% of traffic deaths. ban cars?

prostitution pre-dates drug running, illicit alcohol and possibly even bureaucracy and corrupt politicians.

if you are doing research, fine with me, but you may consider using the scientific method, it has worked well for generations.

just my .02 ;)

sporadic

if anyone wants an lesson in critical reading take a peek at www.dhmo.org it talks about dihydrogen monoxide (water) and is a real hoot.

[My Alias]

The hooker re-education project of Lumberton, N.C., http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/features/strangenews/apress_080604_ladies.html

[Your Guest]

Sporadic,

Where did the ban come from, ideally for me prostitution should be legalised brought out in the open and subject to regulations like any other business is. CSWs having the rights and duties of other workers, such as paying taxes, etc., union (Calcutta (India) has one). It would drive out the criminal elements from the scene, Ban? NO!!! Never!!

Yogesh

[Your Guest]

thank you gentlemen and the lady for responding. please allow me to reply to your views.

dear rn:

i have never considered a csw, 'commercial sex worker', for the uninitiated (that in my opinion is a better and clinical way to refer to a prostitute) as a perpetrator of evil. i totally agree with you that in most situations a csw is the victim and not the perpetrator. i guess that sets the record straight. you seem to agree with me about the rest i suppose.

i however do not agree with you about your argument that one should patronise an illegal establishment so that the csws can feed themselves. this is insane dear rn. remember if these illegal establishments do not earn money yes may be some csws would be go hungry for some time, but eventually there would be less and less profit and one day there would be no one kidnapped and forced into being a csw. for eg if you go to a third world country (and may be first and second world too) and do not pay beggars, the locals do not pay them either, one day there would be no beggars on the street, the child beggars would be in school and the adults would probably be doing something useful. i hope you follow what i intend to imply.

i wonder why do you consider the subject of marriage outside the scope of this topic, why should it be only discussed under american women"?

hizark21

you seem to agree on 1 to 5, on point 6 i aint bothered about the girl doing drugs what bugs me is and you must understand is for most csws, it is never a matter of choice, and generally organised prostitution is a part of organised crime mafia to make it clear for you. would you want to give business to the mafia?

look at this situation you pay 100 bucks to a csw, she pays a cut of 25 bucks to the pimp from this 25 bucks, 5 bucks go to the cops and 5 to the local representative, 5 bucks to the town's crime boss.

the crime boss pumps this money into his other businesses, drug running for instance, he has his peddlers hawking drugs in high school, your daughter messes up with acid, while the cops and the council look the other way. so it is your money which is responsible for the availability of illegal substances of abuse to your minor daughter! gotacha.

dear baltimonger,

thank you very much for your detailed reply. please allow me to respond.

points 1, 3 and 5

you seem to have suffered from abuse as a child. i would in a similar situation probably consider seeking professional assistance.

you have reacted strongly to "convinience", please do not jump, it is just a word and there is a limit to the ability of words to communicate thoughts, moreover words mean differently to different people and in different contexts. how about "peace of mind" in its place.

you seem to hold a grudge against the establishment, you like to break laws that is ok to me, it is a natural human response but as a person grows older and more mature he learns to use his discretion. i will give you an analogy, as kids we loved raiding orchards and gardens for fruits; mangoes, guavas, cashew nuts, jack fruits and others whose english names i do not recall at the moment. we stole not because our parents did not feed us well, we did it for the thrill involved. today all fruit on our table is either bought or from our garden.

even today i break laws, speeding, lane cutting, but laws are in place for the general good of the general population, breaking them is'nt a great idea generally.

i would break laws too, laws which are unfair, such as those promoting racial discrimination, remember the civil rights movement not too long ago.

point 2

humans have evolved a tendency to indulge the pursuit of admiration of peers in other words "social acceptance", it manifests itself in the form of buying of a mercedes, sending children to college, wearing the longest pennis sheath (as in some aborogines), having a blonde wife, owning the most number of cows or the biggest harem, this is what is social acceptance, if you are not into this race, fine, most are.

point 4

these are not my conclusions. yes, i agree every thing is open to manipulations.

point 6

you have misunderstood me please read my replys above. also in a democracy the people are the government, a citizen's responsibility isn't limited to paying taxes. take littering for instance. if you go on littering and leave the clean up to the government very soon every city in the us would look degenerate into a mumbai (a city in india, very filthy.).

point 7

it aint hindi herr sie ist deutsch.

dear wicked sh,

no, i am not in college, and i am not doing research. i am not a psycologist, sociologist or anyotherlogist. is this not a forum? are we not here to express, debate, argue and discuss? have fun. that you consider it irrelevant is just a matter of opinion, yours.

any way i agree with you regarding dangers involved in generalisation. the complexities of natural systems, etc.

[political commentary deleted by admin]

ya divorce aint a level playing field for males in the us, may be for females else where, islamic socities with the triple talak for instance.

however i hope you are joking when you say that most divorces in the us take place becuase it is financially rewarding to the woman. shame if you are serious.

yes i understand the cars, boat, jewellery, shopping routine.

in an unequitable system it is expected that the strong look after the weak.


dear chuponalgas,

[political commentary deleted by admin]

dear joe,

confession parade? i was trying to have bit of fun, no more. any way if you want to contribute to this discussion just go ahead.

dear rock dog,

you have been very matter of fact. we are on the same wave lengtht. in my opinion i have not over reached on point number 6.

two wrongs do not make a right. one wrong thing does not justify another. every small step in the right direction helps.

[political commentary deleted by admin]

supporting illegal prostitution at home and abroad has a direct adverse effect. please forgive me for repeating this but the same gang that runs prostiution dens makes drugs available on the streets, is into muggings, robberies, is into illegal immigrant rackets etc. direct. either in your back yard or in your hotel's.

phew!

editor's note: posting of this report was delayed pending removal of political commentary in the text. please remember that the purpose of this forum is to provide for the exchange of information between men on the subject of finding women for sex. to avoid delays in future reports, please do not post political commentary in the forum. thanks!

[Your Guest]

Folks,

There have been a few deletions by the administrator on account of in his opinion unacceptable political political commentry.

Jackson is a true gentleman. I posted a complaint in the letters to the editor section. He has agreed that he has erred in his judgement. So the deleted portions are availagle in the " Letters to the editor " section.

Take care,

Yogesh.

[Joe Zop]

Yogesh, my comment was simply meant to say that if you are wanting people to post their personal details here, it only seems appropriate that you do the same, especially since you're the one who brought it up.

[Rock Dog]

yogesh,

i never said anywhere in my post that 2 wrongs make a right. i don't really think that you're trying to imply that i did. however, that was something i wanted to be clear about.

you seem to be a fairly intelligent guy. it also seems like you're capable of a fairly sophisticated level of reasoning. i enjoyed reading your postings even if i don't agree with some of your viewpoints. that being said, i do think that you make some valid points.

your point about prostitution having far reaching consequences is defensible mostly if said activity occurs as part of an organized crime operation. i've been with girls for hire in 6 different countries on 3 continents. the only one that might have had this connection was at a bar in tijuana. the rest of them were working strictly for themselves.

i like to be able to pursue my interests without having others impose their morals on my activities. on the flip-side, i'm a pretty easy going guy myself. you can do whatever turns you on as long as it doesn't adversely affect me.

when people mind their own affairs, everyone generally gets along much better. imposing one's morals on others leads to oppression. i think i'll end it here because i don't want this to turn into some kind of personal political statement.

one last suggestion. go out and find yourself one of those good looking girls you have over there. spend a few rupees, get laid and then see if you feel the same about the whole issue afterwards :) .

rock

[Your Guest]

Dear Joe,

Sure here are my personal details

a. Sex and marital status : Male, Married.

b. The financial status vis a vis the partner, ie does your partner earn more than you do : No my wife is a housewife.

c. Whether parents stayed married or seperated : My parents were married for 40 years, my mother is dead and father is a widower.

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh.

[Rubber Nursey]

yogesh,

"i however do not agree with you about your argument that one should patronise an illegal establishment so that the csws can feed themselves. this is insane dear rn. remember if these illegal establishments do not earn money yes may be some csws would be go hungry for some time, but eventually there would be less and less profit and one day there would be no one kidnapped and forced into being a csw".

this was debated in this section some time ago and i tend to think there's probably no right or wrong answers. i might have given this example last time but i can't remember, so i'll give it again.
a couple of years ago (while i was working in a sex worker support agency) i met a couple of girls who the government would consider to be "sex slaves" - asian girls who were brought into the country illegally under false pretences, had their passports confirep001ed and were forced to work off $40,000 debts to 'buy' their freedom. their bosses were moving them from melbourne to sydney to perth and back again constantly to avoid detection and they were working 6 days a week for more than 16 hours at a time and sleeping in the beds that they saw clients in. i was absolutely horrified to hear their situation and was determined to do something to "help" these girls.

only problem was - these girls didn't want my help. they were perfectly happy where they were.
turns out that they were allowed to keep quite a decent portion of their income every week - minus 'debt' repayments and rent - and the agency was feeding them, taking them to the doctors once a week and taking them out shopping/to restaurants/to the movies/etc on their days off. the girls were making more money than they had ever seen in their lives and were sending half their money back to their families and saving the other half for their future. if the government finds illegal sex workers in these sorts of places, they just deport them. no questions asked. it doesn't stop the "big fish" who are doing the trafficking - it just crushes a young girl's dreams of owning a clothes shop in thailand (which is what one of the girls was saving for). it doesn't 'save' anyone from sex slavery or exploitation - these agencies just import another group of unsuspecting girls to take their place. if we call the police or if we vote with our wallets and refuse to patronise these places, who are we really punishing?
and yet...if we continue to give money to these agencies and police continue to turn a blind eye to (or extort money from) them, all of us are facilitating the abduction and/or trafficking of unsuspecting women from poorer countries.

i don't know which is right or wrong and i don't know what the answer is - but this is also coming from a woman who worked for a number of years in "illegal" brothels, because they were the only sort available. brothels are illegal in my state - prostitution itself is not. part of every dollar that clients spent on me went to the illegal establishment i was working in. that establishment paid for my advertising, answered my phones, paid for my room, my linen, water, electricity and provided me with physical and emotional security and support. is there a difference between where i worked and where the asian contract workers worked? and if so...how do we measure degrees of illegality/exploitation? how do we know when its ok to spend our money there and when its not?

[My Alias]

The interesting case of Los Angeles Clippers owner Donald Sterling and his pay-for-play activities. Here are copies of some of the court documents. http://thesmokinggun.com/archive/0812041sterling1.html

[Cash Works]

Here's an address for part of an online book that I thought was interesting and well written and fits right in with the topic of this discussion.

http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/306.htm

[Rock Dog]

Cash Works,

I went to that link to give it a quick glance. Man, once I got started, I had to read through the entire article. It makes some convincing, even brilliant points regarding the morality of prostitution.

The following was one of my favorite passages from the article.

"I make good money. That's why I do it," commented one prostitute; "if I worked at McDonald's for minimum wage, then I'd feel degraded."

This was another good one.

The profession itself is not abusive; it's the illegality; it's the humiliation and degradation that is dealt to them at the hands of the police."

This is definitely a well written, logical article. It's really refreshing to read something that takes a realistic, practical point of view.

I wish I had an extra hand so I could give it three thumbs up!

Rock

[Your Guest]

dear cash works,

thanks for the link. i've rushed through the contents.

consensual sex between adults should be nobody's business.

the problem is and that which is glossed in all the intelligent quotes that were on the said site is that for most prostitutes that consent is coerced. the route for most prostitutes into prostitution is:

deceit - >kidnapping ->physical assault & gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) ->sold into prostitution.

would you cash works support and patronise such an activity?

take care,

love,

yogesh.

[Rubber Nursey]

"the route for most prostitutes into prostitution is: deceit - >kidnapping ->physical assault & gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) ->sold into prostitution".

that site you read was full of quotes from real-life sex workers who said that wasn't the case for them. i'm here as an ex-sex worker saying that was never the case for me, nor any of my friends. i've spoken to women (and men) all over the world via the internet who said that was never the case for them, either.

could you tell me where it was that you found the information or statistics to support your claim that this is the case for "most prostitutes"?

[Rock Dog]

yogesh,

just read your most recent post..... you made the following statement;

the route for most prostitutes into prostitution is:

deceit - >kidnapping ->physical assault & gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) ->sold into prostitution

i can appreciate that this may in fact be the situation where you come from. however, i can assure you that it is not the same everywhere else.

this is not the normal way for prostitution in here in north america. many of the girls here do it for monetary reasons. it may be that they would rather make $50 in half an hour rather than work all day at a 7-11 for the same amount.

some of them may be doing it because they need money for drugs or because they're on welfare. however, i'm not the one forcing them to take drugs and i'm definitely not the reason they're on welfare. their reasons are their own.

i admit that i have very little experience with the scene in asia, and none at all in india/pakistan/bangladesh/sri lanka or maylasia or wherever it is that you're from. so you could very well be right about your statement. it's just that you can't apply this statement universally to the whole world.

remember that this website has members who post from every region of the world. europe, north and south america, australia, africa and asia. try reading through some of the other forums. see what is written there. many of the posts will be self serving, with guys bragging about how many girls they had. but if you look carefully, you will find some well-written and informative posts.

personally, i've been all over north america, mexico, and the caribbean. i've also travelled to africa and asia as well. i've never once seen or met a girl that looked like she was being forced into doing anything she didn't want to do. it was obvious that some of them weren't proud of what they were doing. but still, they were doing it because , for one reason or another, they need to. not because they were being forced into it.

i enjoy reading your posts. you definitely have some interesting points of view on this particular subject. am also looking forward to further discussions on this topic.

rock

[Joe Zop]

Ok, Yogesh, since you provided info I'll bite, though I have to wonder a bit about your motivation here -- I can't really read back through your posts since the search function isn't working, but half of your posts are in this section, and as RN has pointed out they contain some pretty major generalizations which may well be coming from a region-specific point of view. I'd agree that there's a great deal of forced prostitution in India. But while such trafficking is definitely a problem, and one I expect most here abhor, to go from your specific local situation to speaking of prostitution in general is simply an inaccurate summation of the situation. Every place in the world where prostitution exists is not full of kidnapped women forced into virtual slavery or operations run by organized crime.

At any rate, to go with your questions: I'm male and married, both of us are wage-earners and who makes the most has changed over time and continues to change depending on a number of variables, my parents stayed married until one died.

To address a couple of your points -- yes, marriage is in general the best form for bringing up kids (IMO), there is a good deal less social issue in terms of being a 50 year-old unmarried of either sex, though in one reaches that age and has never been married folks tend to wonder a bit simply because it's not the norm, and that also varies widely by society. Here in the US is carries fairly little stigma.

While marriage in most cases certainly increases the convenience of sex, I don't think at all it is always convenient or alleviates guilt, since sex (along with money) is one of the major causes of friction in relationships and one of the leading causes of divorce. And as far as STDs, the bottom line is that the best degree of safety is found by both parties having only one partner, which would indicate marriage helps in that regard, except for the fact that with a 50% divorce rate in lots of places that would indicate there's a fair percentage of married people sleeping around and given that 60% of condoms used are estimated to be used outside marriage.

I don't believe there would be "guilt of immoral behavior" with prostitution legal and not socially frowned upon.

[Cash Works]

Yogesh,

No, I'm not into slavery. However, as many here have pointed out, the situation you describe is not the norm for most of the world.

I would agree that there is an inordinately high level of violence against prostitutes. Because they are perceived as social outcasts in many cultures, the police don't bother trying to protect them from violent crimes and tend to not take their complaints seriously. I'm pretty sure this is why some of them turn to pimps - they think the pimp will give them some protection. Unfortunately, pimps have also been known to use violence against these same women who came to them seeking protection.

CW

[Your Guest]

dear joe and rock dog and rn,

i possess no desire to pass judgement on the sexual and other preferences of people, moral or otherwise. for example personally i am repulsed by homosexuality, but i defend the right of individuals (adults) to act according to their personal taste and inclination in their private lives as long as it is consentual.

mcwilliams' book 'ain't nobody's business if you do'
is interesting. i read snatches all through it; prostitution, pornography, homosexuality, anti-communism, drugs, bible etc. despite the tendency of the author towards sensationalism, a certain degree of bias, gross, subjectivity, platitude, a bit of hypocrisy, a tendency to play to the gallery and the occassional fiction for example "prostitutes also show a lower incidence than the general public of all other sexually transmitted diseases" (prostitutes comprise a high risk group with regards to std and aids and other infectious diseases such as tb, they also tend to suffer from drug, tobbaco and alcohol abuse) the book is good to read, i have downloaded some sections and hope to buy the print version soon. i request you, joe to recommend to the administrator to give a link to the author's site, the url is http://www.mcwilliams.com.

at last we are getting some where, we seem to agree on most points, such as that if a person is forced into prostitution it is abhorent. you disagree with me about the universality of the issue. for you it is a problem specific to india or as rock dog says may be specific to asia. gentlemen and the lady, i do read through the posts in this fourm from around the globe and it was here that i read about the brutal russian mafia inflicted black saturday. there was a post where a guy wrote that russian women (csws) like there men (clients) to be rough with them. ugh!


i must admit that i have never travelled abroad and my comments is based on what i read on the net, books, magazines, television and movies.

i'll give you an example this is from a bruce willis movie which has bruce willis as a time traveller who is sent into the present. i hope you can place it. our hero who is back from the future, is taken as a psychiatric case and institutionalised he gains aquaintance with a female doctor, there is a lot of confusion and the doctor has a great theory, subsequently the two of them indulge in activities which get the cops after them and they need a breather and they need to talk, they land up in a seedy down town (if my memory serves me right) philadelphia hotel, where the rooms are hired by the hour for obvious use, the manager assumes that a new csw (the female doctor) has started operation in the area without pay off to the crime boss and calls the crime boss over, the crime boss arrives with a large ugly knife to teach the defaulting csw a lesson and so on. guys the intensity may differ but the problem is universal you just have to keep your eyes open, keeping them shut and saying it does not exist just aint the truth.

i therefore reiterate that in most cases a person is forced into prostitution. the degree of force may vary; direct in some cases and circumstantial in others.

poverty, large families, alcoholic parents or may be single mothers, absence or lack of education and training, disadvantaged neighbourhoods and social/financial/racial backgrounds, peer pressure and dearth of positive role models and absence of family/society or government support for struggling young people. young men become criminals and young women csws in these circumstances.

it is seldom as simple as "i make good money. that's why i do it," commented one prostitute; "if i worked at mcdonald's for minimum wage, then i'd feel degraded." for this lady it is just a smart career move, for most it is a hobson's choice. rn just as my views in your opinion are a reflection of the environment that i live in, one rn (and probably a few others) does not make a summer.

rock dog a doctor may be a smoker, but he will never in his right mind tell his patients that smoking is beneficial to health. for him smoking is an informed choice. when he tells you he to quit smoking he isn't moralising he is just giving you his informed and knowledgeable opinion. i am sharing my views here with some articulate and smart people. it is not meant to a statement on my personal life.

joe there were quite a few posts here deriding marriage and complaining about the rip off that divorces were. i had a feeling that these were from people with parents who were seperated and who had sit at home wives, and who ended up with messy and expensive marriages. i find your views on the subject pretty balanced.

if we had a hundred posts we could have come to some kind of conclusion right here. remember this is just hypothetical.

such as,

people whose parents have divorced are prone to divorces.

divorces are expensive and messy where there is a vast difference in the incomes of the contesting parties.

[My Alias]

This is beautiful, setting up a brothel right across the street from the main seat of a country's church, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1516&ncid=1516&e=4&u=/afp/20040819/od_afp/britain_religion_sex_040819170450

[Rubber Nursey]

yogesh (if you haven't run off) - i thought i should just clarify, for the record, that i do not condone 'forced' prostitution of any kind and i am not for one minute denying that there are women all over the world suffering in the type of conditions that you are describing. trafficking and sex slavery are all too real and governments and police of every nation should be getting off their corrupt asses and doing something about it, immediately.

however, there are asian women worldwide who are trapped in sweatshops making sneakers and designer jeans - but nobody holds the entire garment industry responsible for that. children in india are being locked in rooms with looms and forced to make rugs until their fingers bleed - but nobody blames the textile industry for that. and yet when people hear about sex slaves or child prostitutes or contract workers, they automatically assume that this behaviour is somehow 'inherent' to prostitution and that the sex industry, as a whole, is responsible.

the sex industry as a whole does not, in any way, condone these sorts of abuses. in most countries, the majority of sex workers and brothel owners are just everyday people trying to earn a quid. they have no criminal associations, drug problems or 'underworld' connections. they have never been kidnapped, gang-raped or sold into slavery, nor have they ever kidnapped, raped or sold anyone else into slavery. kidnapping, drugging and [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) a woman and then selling her to a brothel is not 'prostitution' - it's a crime. one of the biggest obstacles the sex industry faces in it's fight to be recognised as a legitimate form of employment, is society's inability to separate the two.

[Cash Works]

Oosikman,

They're probably making a killing off all those repressed vicars.

CW

[Your Guest]

Dear RN,
_
Why do you fear that I might run away from this debate? The thing is that my posts take longer to be displayed than the 24 to 48 hours that is supposed to be taken for review.
_
We have a major point of disagreement and it is statistical, it is about the ratio between forced and voluntary Commercial Sex activity. I request you to come with some supporting your statements I will try to find references substantiating my claims.
_
True children and adults are trapped in occupations where conditions are difficult and inhuman, such as where you have mentioned, however there is a major difference.
_
Unlike prostitution most of these activities have voluntary participation. There is in most cases no direct force expect poverty. Again the government, NGOs and concerned individuals are working to alleviate sufferings such as by starting evening education programmes, health care, insurance etc., and in cases where children are involved, where their occupation is dangerous the employment of children is banned. Products are sold declaring that they have been manufactured without the employment of child labourers. One example I can give where this has been successful is the fire cracker industry.

In my opinion sexual exploitation is the extreme form of abuse that can be inflicted on a human as it is both mental and psychological. It can sure not be compared with over work, under pay, etc.

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh

[Rubber Nursey]

Yogesh,

This is a public forum designed for public debate, so I would appreciate it if we could keep the discussion out of the private message boxes. I was going to post a response to your first message but as it appears to be a post that you have submitted, I'll wait for it to appear on the board before I comment.

However, as to the other message, I would like to respond.
a) To your suggestion that sex workers and brothel owners ARE criminals because most are operating in countries where prostitution is illegal: Fair enough, 'technically' that may be the case. But the crimes you have been referring to are a world away from the crimes committed by brothel owners or hookers who are simply working without legal consent. For example, in my state sex for money is not illegal, but running a brothel IS. However, our brothel owners pay business registration fees, undergo Council health inspections and pay their taxes, and in some cases, pay employee superannuation and workers compensation. Sex workers walk into brothels of their own free will and ask for a job. They state what hours they will work, what services they are willing to provide and what prices they are willing to work for and if the employment conditions are not to their liking, they go elsewhere. Did you have that much control at the last job interview you went to? Again I am not saying that is the case everywhere. But in my personal experience, this is the rule, rather than the exception.

b) I KNOW that you have already said you have no problem with sex between consenting adults - but you have also made it clear that you don't believe prostitution IS sex between consenting adults. Which is why I keep 'repeating myself'.

c) Statistics and other information supporting my opinion can be found all over the net. The site that was recently mentioned is just one example. I was also a sex worker myself, as are most of my friends. I have worked with hundreds of women in brothels and spoken to literally thousands during my time in a sex worker support agency. I talk to hookers from all over the world and have online 'friends' from America, Canada, England and Ireland. My statements aren't based on statistics or evidence. They are my personal experiences.

Sorry if this post is a little confrontational, but I got a similar vibe from your message. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that you had 'run away from the conversation'. I meant 'run off' in kind of a slang way, as in disappeared/tired of the site/gone walkabout, because a while had passed since your last post. I never had to go through the delayed posting thing, so I always forget to allow for it with newer members. I apologise if you felt I was insulting you.

[Smut Villain]

Yogesh,

I mean no offense by asking you this, but if you are so adamantly against prostitution, then why are you posting in a forum designed by and for people engaged in this pursuit? Did you honestly think anyone here was going to back you up?

That's like a Black man trying to gain membership in the Ku Klux Klan.

[Your Guest]

Dear Smut Villian,

Not every human behaviour is rational, you are right I shouldn't be here in the first place, but I am. I suppose that is because I like the conversation that goes on.

Dear RN,

I spend a lot of time and some money readind and replying to these posts, therefore the least I can ensure is that my replies are read by those whom they are meant for. I resort to PM.

I am sure that you do not read my posts carefully, or languages are so different that we cannot communicate to a reasonable degree of effectiveness.

I HAVE NEVER CALLED PROSTITUTES CRIMINALS, I ALWAYS consider them VICTIMS if of nothing their circumstances.

Please read my posts carefully and then respond.

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh

[Your Guest]

this is the post i pm ed to rn, and to which she has complained, there is nothing personal, i have already given the reasons for resorting to pm.

dear rn,

you wrote,

the sex industry as a whole does not, in any way, condone these sorts of abuses. in most countries, the majority of sex workers and brothel owners are just everyday people trying to earn a quid. they have no criminal associations, drug problems or 'underworld' connections. they have never been kidnapped, gang-raped or sold into slavery, nor have they ever kidnapped, raped or sold anyone else into slavery. kidnapping, drugging and [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) a woman and then selling her to a brothel is not 'prostitution' - it's a crime. one of the biggest obstacles the sex industry faces in it's fight to be recognised as a legitimate form of employment, is society's inability to separate the two.

i reply,

i strongly disagree with you, all over the world prostitution is run by criminals, due to the simple reason that almost everywhere it is illegal.

the only solution to the problem is to legalise it, and regulate it.

yes for the last time i never said and i never consider consensual sex between adults any thing but their personal business and not mine so don't keep repeating.

take care,

love,

yogesh

[Smut Villain]

***************************************************
Quote from Yogesh:

"....The only solution to the problem is to LEGALISE IT, AND REGULATE IT...."

***************************************************

For once, I have to agree with you, but not just due to reasons of lust..

The human libido can be/is such a powerful stimulus for us because it's simply part of who we are. When man tries to deny what is part of him, he can only fail (and fail miserably in some cases). One need look no further for an example than the recent scandals befalling the Catholic church (esp. in the U.S.). The priests are not allowed to even acknowledge this part of their being, as if they weren't even human; but, alas, they ARE human, and they eventually give in (not that I condone fiddling with little boys/girls, but I'm betting this denial of their human nature drove them to such deviant behavior).

Police officers in the U.S. have been fighting the so-called "scourge" of prostitution since it was introduced in the States, but it apparently does no good whatsoever; in fact, I'll agree to your point that the "world's oldest trade" is made even more dangerous to provider and customer alike PRECISELY because the Law drives the industry underground. It's as if our legislators are blinded by their own pious morality.

We tried Prohibition versus another "vice" (alcohol) in the 1920's, and it proved to be an OUTRIGHT FAILURE OF MASSIVE PROPORTION (emphasis added). Apparently we didn't learn our lesson.

[Joe Zop]

Gee, Yogesh, you read carefully and spend your time and money but RN does not, huh? That's a rather obnoxious statement, and condescending as hell, to say the least.

Your logic here is absurd:

1. You don't consider consensual sex between adults anything but their personal business, but if they exchange money as a condition of having that sex then they are criminals, and you're against that, and believe it should be regulated. How do you square "their personal business" with "regulate it"?

2. You say that because prostitution is illegal all who "run" it are criminals by definition, and therefore they are part of abuses that may happen regardless of whether they take part or not.

To take that logic to the extreme, in other words: if someone is jaywalking (which makes them a criminal) and if there is a gang war that's going on in the street where the jaywalking is happening, the jaywalker is equally responsible for any injuries that may occur regardless of whether or not they're directly involved.

Also, if prostitutes are engaging in an illegal activity, by your definition above doesn't that make them criminals and not victims? Or can they be both?

[Pokey]

Yogesh, I agree with most of your positions regarding prostitution being run by criminals. There are some people on this forum who want to legitimize sex shops, prostitution rings, SW's and MP employers being the same kind of people who open ice cream shops.

I don't know what the agenda is but I know it's not right for the majority of these business's . Right or wrongly prostitution is still illegal in most places, because of that, you don't get the average Mom & Pop opening up sex shops. What you get usually is a criminal element or a large and small scale.

Lets start at the top, during the Vietnam war the US had a contract with the Thai government to provide "recreation & relaxation for the US soldiers. The world bank build an economic plan for the Thailand around the sex industry. No wonder 35 years later young girls have no other choices but to work in the sex industry ran by corrupt people taking advantage of these young girls.

I agree some girls are forced into the sex industry by corrupt people, and sometimes even by their own parents. But, the most common method is tricking girls into the sex business, by opportunistics scum crawling out of the woodwork- it's everywhere. In fact I just fucked a girl last night south of my border, who claimed she answered a add for a job, 800 miles away, but when she got here it turned out the only way to make real money is to go upstairs and spead her legs. ( she doesn't do BJ's yet, rookie hooker)

These girls, are not the average ice cream workers either. I never leave my wallet along with hookers, unless I have a relationship with them over time. These girls, will engage in such behavior as :cock blocks: no BJ's after promising one: stealing: running off with your money before you can fuck them: taking a knife to you: lousy fuck: etc..( all happened to me)

This is a tough business, Mary Poppins doesn't work in it.

[Rock Dog]

Dear Yogesh,

This is the last post that I will bother to make concerning anything you have to say about prostitution. There is a good reason for this.

It has become obvious to me that you aren't really here for discussion. But rather, for debate. I can see that you are fixed in your position and no amount of reasoning by the other member will change your mind. You have shown in every single post that you are inflexible in your position and generally unwilling to consider alternative points of view.

Like I said before, I enjoy reading your posts because you come up with some interesting ideas about things at times. However, it seems like you are here mostly for the purpose of debate. You stated your position in one of your first posts. Almost every post since then has been spent defending that position.

Imagine for a moment, that I want to read an article about a Ferrari. I'm thinking of buying one and I want to know about one so I can make th right decision. There are several reviews available. One is by a guy who's never even sat in one. Another is by a guy who driven one a few times, but never owned one. Then there's a review by a guy who's owned one, but never worked on it. Finally, there's a review by a guy who's owned several, knows every nut and bolt and races them for a living. I'd want to read the review by the last guy, because he's the one who best knows what he's talking about.

You write about the subject of prostitution, but what do you really know about it? When it comes to prostitution, you are like the guy who writes about Ferrraris, but has no real experience with one. I think you've read a lot of articles on the subject. You may even see these girls working near where you live. But I don't think YOU really know the subject well enough to be lecturing to US.

So what's your real reason for being here anyways? Seeking attention? Trying to save the girls? Trying to save us? Maybe you just like engaging in a never-ending debate. Hmmmmm, not the best quality to have if you're married.

Rock

[Rubber Nursey]

i've said this before but i'll say it again. my posts are about my own personal experiences, so regardless of whether you agree with them or not, they are the truth. pokey's post is about his personal experiences and whether they are the same as mine or not, they are also the truth. i have seen some of the best sex industry working conditions in the world and pokey has obviously seen some of the worst.

the problem i always have with these sorts of debates, is that while experiences like pokey's are readily validated and accepted as fact, mine are often automatically discounted. this is because pokey's view of prostitution doesn't deviate too far from society's view - people believe it because it fits with what they 'know' of the sex industry. my experiences do not, so i must either be a liar or have some sort of hidden agenda.

and this is exactly the reason why people such as yogesh form such strong opinions of what 'most prostitutes' are like - the movies, books, newspapers, etc do not give us both sides. if an ex-hooker goes on the telly saying she was raped and beaten and addicted to drugs, people nod their heads and say 'oh yes, that's what prostitution's like. oh that poor, victimised, abused, exploited girl'. but if *i* was to get on the telly and say that i loved my job and i never did drugs and i loved the people that i worked for and the clients i saw, those same people would shake their heads and say 'oh dear. look at what all those years of degradation and humiliation have done to her. she doesn't even have the self esteem to realise that those people were actually treating her badly and destroying her inside. oh that poor, victimised, abused, exploited girl'.

yogesh, i didn't 'complain' about you sending me a pm - i just asked that we keep it on the board (politely, i might add). i did complain that your pm was confrontational because, as everyone can now see, the last few lines were all in caps (which equates to yelling at me). but then...maybe i jis din't reed it rite.

pokey, when the media calls you a lowdown thieving slag and the clients treat you like a lowdown thieving slag and when you are raped or robbed and the police treat you like a lowdown thieving slag...you will eventually become a lowdown thieving slag. i have no love for thieves and dishonesty is one of my pet hates, but i believe those girls were created by their environment. if they'd had the protection of the law and were treated with the dignity and respect that all human beings deserve, they probably wouldn't have turned out that way. as for the corrupt brothel owners - that will always be the case while governments and police have control over 'underground' prostitution. if the industry is allowed to operate openly, it can be regulated by all the appropriate agencies and any inappropriate involvement of politicians and police could be closely monitored.

smut villain...get those pants off and lay down on the rug, baby. i'm gonna rock your world.

cash works...better loosen that tie. you're next. ;)

[Joe Zop]

pokey your "facts" on thailand are simply absurdly off. the sex industry there was well-established far before the vietnam war, as there were brothels in ayuttaya as far back as the fourteenth century, and from the 17th century forward there was an entire system in place in the capital for thais and foreigners -- mostly at that point the chinese who came to thailand to work in mining and railroading. the state drew substantial revenue from this. in fact, the buddhist temple wat kanikapol was built entirely from the profits of prostitution, by a sex worker's donations. in 1930 there were 151 licensed brothels in bangkok, and the rise of prostitution in thailand has been linked to the abolition of slavery in the late ninteenth century and the end of debt bondage and forced labor in 1905.

in fact, there's a rhyme that's still recited in chiang mai:

dr. chitt and missa louis
sleeping with two girls,
two nights for fifteen rupees
miss kum asked for silver,
miss huan asked for cloth,
miss noja asked for an elephant.
hurry up and finish, doctor.

missa louis was the son of anna leonowens, the famous "anna" of "anna and the king of siam" (obviously, he learned quite a number of things in the court!) and dr. cheek was an agent of the borneo company. the good doctor had a harem licensed by his wife there in 1890.

the major difference the vietnam war brought on was a change in the public display of prostitution, as american servicemen treated sex workers as "girlfriends" and walked openly with them in the streets. this led to the rise in public perception of thailand as a sex haven. even this arrangement, however, had historical precedent, as there were very similar arrangements for "rented wives" were available for foreign traders in pattani, in southern thailand, documented as early as 1604. local women presented themselves to traders, and they'd come to agreement for payment for a length of time. by day she'd cook and clean for him, by night she'd share his bed. both were expected to be "faithful" to the other for the duration of the contract.

your statement that the sex industry in los is made up of young girls having no other choice but to be taken advantage of by corrupt people shows that you know nothing about how things really work. one of the rising aspects of the sex scene there, for example, is of female university students freelancing on occasion for extra money. they're not controlled -- they just head to discos and look for men willing to pay. and contrary to your statement, there are plenty of "mom-and-pop" sex places in thailand.


as far as criminality goes, is it somehow not criminal to fuck some woman who says she's been tricked into the life? personally, i go out of my way to walk away from any scenario where i find any hint of coercion or reluctance -- i'm only interested in truly consenting partners. to my mind, participating in such scenarios truly does support coercive criminal activity quite directly.

[Rubber Nursey]

Did you know that I have dirty little fantasies about you sitting naked on the end of my bed, reading to me from an encylopedia? *ragged sigh* ;)

Your post demonstrates what I said in mine, though - that even when two people are looking at the same thing, they will still see what they want to see and believe only what they want to believe.

[Joe Zop]

LOL, well, RN, that's not the book I'd be choosing! (Nor the fantasy!) But, yes, I admit to being a research junkie and inveterate reader.

In any event, a lot of that stuff isn't from an encyclopedia, but from a book by anthropologist Penny Van Esterik called "Materializing Thailand" which is a feminist tract about gender constructs in LOS. It's a very solidly researched book, written by someone with long direct experience in the country and though I don't agree with all its perspectives, it's got a ton of very good information in it.

And that, IMHO, is the key for getting any kind of real understanding -- trying to see as much as possible, get as much verifiable information as one can, comparing and contrasting, tryng on other people's opinions and perspectives, and then understanding that we all filter it through our own biases. Personal experiences necessarily have the greatest impact on our particular perspectives, as those are visceral and tangible, but that doesn't mean they're somehow more accurate than anything else, as they have their own context as well. The fact that it rains almost every day where you live doesn't mean that rain is the most common kind of weather everywhere.

[Rubber Nursey]

what you're reading makes no difference to my fantasy -- poetry might be nice, perhaps? ;) you pick the book, while i stoke the fire and pour the champers.

i guess to me, personal experiences make all the difference. i want to feel what other workers are going through. i want to laugh with them or feel their pain. from that, i can find out how they feel about themselves, inside, as people. and that speaks volumes about what their environment is like, how clients and brothel owners treat them and how society treats them. as you know, i also read a lot - i've read just about every piece of prostitution literature and legislation from around the world that i can get my hands on! - but ultimately, my focus is not really on whether prostitution is legal or moral or how it affects society as a whole. my focus is on how it affects individual sex workers (and i will fight to change conditions accordingly).

i just wish people would stop thinking and talking for sex workers, and actually listen to what they have to say. if i want to learn what it's like to be a hooker, i want to hear it from a hooker, not an acedemic or a health worker or a feminist. i don't appreciate people coming in from the 'outside' and telling me how i feel about my life. in the same way, one of the original reasons that i stayed in this forum was to learn more about the men who were paying me for sex. i even went out and paid for sex so i could see what it was like from your side of the fence, remember? (the fact that she was gorgeous and i'd wanted to shag her for months had nothing to do with it, of course!)

of the men in this forum who believe (because society tells them to) that sex workers are liars, thieves, drug addicts, etc - i wonder how many of them also believe that clients are perverts, child molesters, [CodeWord127] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127) and social outcasts???

[Joe Zop]

Ah, yes, well, and it was sooo nice of you to pay to do all that research just for us! :D

My point, of course, is not that personal experience shouldn't be paramount -- because it necessarily is -- only that it always comes with a context. You mentioned before that one of the troubles is that people can't really adequately compare such experiences, as we can't truly get inside one another's shoes (though we seem to do so with the pants!) It's a double-edged sword -- personal experience is distortive, but though statistics and experts help provide context for the big picture by gathering larger sets of data, they always tend to fall down when it comes to how that translates into individual experience. Being told your situation is normative or exceptional doesn't really mean much when it comes down to how it feels.

Academics and researchers are highly useful for gathering information, but when it comes to interpreting the data, well, I always think of the quote from Jean Baudrillard, "Like dreams, statistics are a form of wish fulfillment." By that I mean that interpretation of data is far too often highly colored by point of view, whether that interpretation is being done by the person gathering and documenting them or reading about them, and one always needs to look with some degree of a jaundiced eye.

However, I do take slight issue with your comment regarding guys who say hookers are liars, thieves, etc., as if you're someone who's been lied to or ripped off you certainly have a viable case to make. The problem, of course, is going from the specific to the general, and saying, "All hookers are thieves" as opposed to, "Well, I'm one who's been ripped off" as it's the same issue as mentioned previously -- someone who steals is a thief, and that's a separate issue from being a hooker in the same way that being a brothel owner doesn't necessarily make someone an enslaving human trafficker.

And I expect there actually are at least a few guys here who do in fact feel clients of sex workers fall into some of the categories you mention -- and there are posts on this forum that say similar things.

[Pokey]

How did I know I was going to get a history lesson on "prostitution in Thailand" by you JZ. I would ask you to site your source, it's not that I don't believe you, but it would be interesting reading. ( before you ask, most of my sources are from the internet; I don't go that deeply into it)

If your getting your facts from "Materializing Thailand" by some feminist, who more then likely never engaged in sexual esctasy or a good gang bang. I'm sure you enjoyed the metaphor of palimpsest; Institutional androcentrism, and the contextualized Kalothesa, but I find this to be a bunch of bullshit, sorry for lack for a better term.

I don't think you understand the economic systems of the world and how the US and especiallly the World Bank has a influence on places like Thailand. Sure these women have a choice, and that choice sometimes comes down to fucking for money or eating, and the choice between getting a education and having to fuck to stay in school.

RN, I realized there are some great and successful hookers out there in the world. I'm sorry to say that I haven't met that many of them. When I do meet them it seems like they just blow there money or drugs, or worst hook up with a man, who takes there money. Come on, you have to agree with me, that these girls are not selling girl scout cookies here. These girls deal with the most basic sexual banel needs, where ethics is unmasked and pure sexual fulfilment and lust are the order of the day.( I just love to give a hooker a good facial, and watching her licking my love cream off her lips, now thats business.)

You want to believe these sex shop employers operate on a high plane just as regular businessmen and women do and don't at time treat women bad, for example making them forgo menstruation cycle by eitherusing cotton balls just to make them keep fucking.

I would like to hear from others besides RN who know successeful sexual business owners, and " Happy Hookers " who make a great deal of money, and seem to have their head on straight.

[Rubber Nursey]

Pokey,

"RN, I realized there are some great and successful hookers out there in the world. I'm sorry to say that I haven't met that many of them. When I do meet them it seems like they just blow there money or drugs, or worst hook up with a man, who takes there money".

I hear this a lot and it always confuses me. Am I to presume that you can only be a 'successful' hooker if you manage to walk away with a property portfolio and ten thousand shares in Lloyds of London? If a lawyer earns $500 an hour and spends it all on drugs and partying or supports her boyfriend with it, is she also less 'successful' than a lawyer who saves? Perhaps, ultimately. But is she a lesser lawyer - or lesser person in general - because of it? Surely a sex worker can do what she wants with her own money, regardless of what she did to earn it?

"Come on, you have to agree with me, that these girls are not selling girl scout cookies here. These girls deal with the most basic sexual banel needs, where ethics is unmasked and pure sexual fulfilment and lust are the order of the day".

No, they're not selling cookies - they're selling sexual services. I still don't get what makes that so different to selling any other type of service. What about a masseuse, who offers exactly the same service without the sex? Is the act of having sex really so dirty and degrading and soul destroying? And why is satisfying a basic human need such as lust any 'worse' than a chef satisfying hunger or a doctor giving relief from pain? Again, is sex and lust really that evil?

" You want to believe these sex shop employers operate on a high plane just as regular businessmen and women do and don't at time treat women bad, for example making them forgo menstruation cycle by eitherusing cotton balls just to make them keep fucking".

No - I've said that the sex industry businesses in MY city (and most others in Australia) are operated by ordinary people and run like an ordinary business. There are, of course, some business owners who treat their employees like crap, but there will be plenty of people in 'normal' jobs reading this who are being treated like crap by their own employers. Being a bad boss is not sex industry specific. Forcing sex workers to work with their periods is exactly the same as regular employers forcing people to do overtime or come in on weekends. (Obviously in a sexual situation, being forced to do something can be much worse than just being forced to work weekends - but in principle, its still an employer demanding too much from an employee). If laws were changed around the world and sex workers were given basic employee rights (like they have here) sex industry employers would have to get their act together.

"I would like to hear from others besides RN who know successeful sexual business owners, and " Happy Hookers " who make a great deal of money, and seem to have their head on straight".

So would I!! Problem is, you don't believe me...so why would you believe them? (There are a million pro-prostitution websites where you can read stories from past and present 'happy hookers'. Try searching for Jessi Winchester, Magdalene Meretrix, Norma Jean Almodovar --- and more importantly, get your hands on Delores French's book 'Working - My Life as a Prostitute'. She is awesome).

[Rubber Nursey]

Joe,
"Ah, yes, well, and it was sooo nice of you to pay to do all that research just for us!"

Well...you know how I am. Always willing to make sacrifices for the greater good and take one for the team. It was hard work, but I managed to get through it.

"However, I do take slight issue with your comment regarding guys who say hookers are liars, thieves, etc., as if you're someone who's been lied to or ripped off you certainly have a viable case to make".

I sort of tried to qualify that with the 'because society tells you to' - but on re-reading, it doesn't really convey what I meant it to. I was getting at people who believe that sex workers are thieves, addicts, etc, but they don't really have any personal experience to back that presumption up...in other words, they believe it simply because that's the information they have always been provided with by society.

I don't doubt that there are men out there who have been ripped off or mistreated and they hold grudges against sex workers for it - all I ask is that they don't tar us all with the same brush. Fact is, I have been ripped off and treated badly by some clients, as well. It led me to be a little more WARY of clients (and to not put myself in those positions again) but it did not change my opinion of clients as a whole.

[Joe Zop]

Sure, Pokey, have at it -- if you want the references in addition to the one I mentioned, then here they are. And I thought I made clear that there's a lot in "Materializing Thailand" that I neither agree with nor think is all that interesting. So yeah, a lot of it is metaphoric blather, but that doesn't mean it's a useless book. And in any event, I'd think you'd feel that the feminist perspective, which is often down on prostitution as being exploitive, would be supportive of your take on things.

Siriporn Skrobenek, "The Transnational Sex-Exploitation of Thai Women" (1983)

Sukanya Hantrakul, "Prostitution in Thailand" (1988)

Boonchalaksi and Guest, "Prostitution in Thailand" (1994)

W. Bristoe, "Louis and the King of Siam" (1976)

P. Phongpaichit, "From Peasant Girls to Bangkok Masseuses" (1982)

A. Reid, "Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce 1450-1680 Vol. 1" (1988)

(And no, I've not read all of these completely, though some I have -- I've only seen excerpts of some. I've no idea how many of these are online, though I know some are.)


Don't misunderstand me -- I agree that the World Bank had a huge influence in expanding the sex trade there, since that's how the Thais approached increasing the tourism industry, but my point was that the sex trade was already there, already large, and long established in the society, and that there were and are mechanisms in Thai society that support the structure, and it's simply not always as coercive or desperate a choice as you describe. (It's also worth noting that the Thai sex scene for foreigners is a small fraction of the size of the sex scene aimed at Thai men.) But you're the one who said, "No wonder 35 years later young girls have no other choices but to work in the sex industry ran by corrupt people..." (emphasis mine)

To quote from a survey done by the International Labour Organization, which surveyed fifty women who made the trip to Bangkok to work in massage parlors about their reasons for doing so, "The migration gave them an earning power which was simply astounding relative to normal rural budgets. A couple of years of work would enable the family to build a house of a size and quality which few people in the countryside could hope to achieve in the earnings of a lifetime...They were engaging in an entrepreneurial move designed to sustain the family units of a rural economy... Our survey clearly showed that the girls felt they were making a perfectly rational decision within the context of their particular social and economic structure."

That's simply not the same as being forced to make a choice between eating or getting an education. (And in fact, many of the Thai university women who are tricking on the side come from very well-off families and see doing it as defying social conventions plus an easy way to get spending cash, as opposed to being forced to do it to stay in school.)

The last time I was in Bangkok, I engaged the services of a 25-year-old sex worker who only recently entered the business. She told me she left a pretty good office job - where she was making more money than any of her friends - to go to Bangkok and work in the sex industry. She decided to do this not because she or anyone else in her family was starving, but because she wanted to pay for the college education of her youngest brother and to generate some money to start a business of her own and this was the easiest way to do it. (She also said she loved having sex, and liked the idea of getting money for something she liked to do.)

That's no different a choice than many people would make -- it's the same kind of choice people made when Henry Ford opened factories, as families uprooted themselves and moved halfway across the country in search of steady work for high pay. But the key is that it is a choice made by an adult, not some sort of desperate scenario where all is necessarily or usually forced.

[Joe Zop]

Yes, RN, I recall well your descriptions of taking one for the team. (And taking and taking, if I recall correctly -- such devotion!)

As far as the whole "thieves" and "forced" thing goes, part of the problem with the issue is that it becomes impossible to have a discussion of the issue of prostitution itself, as people always point to one aspect or another as a way of characterizing the whole.


But removing all aspects of the real world, taking out all the socio-economic slants, removing handlers from the equation, placing things in no particular country, just putting two people together in a room somewhere -- the issue really comes down to this question:

Is there a basic problem with one consenting adult giving another consenting adult something in return for a sexual experience?

If you say, yes, there an innate is a problem with this, then there's little more to be said, as it clearly offends your moral code, and the only issue is the degree of tolerance you have toward others with different moral structures.

If you say, no, that's not a problem, then the issue becomes defining acceptable constructs, not whether such constructs should exist.

Obviously, it's an open question whether acceptable constructs have a way of being something that fits into the real world, and how one would remove unacceptable ones, but that's another issue again, and one that's irrelevant if you feel the above question itself is a problem.

[Pokey]

JZ, thanks for the reading lists next time after I fuck a nice asian girl, I'll be sure to read something on on that list if I can't sleep.

RN, I took a quick look at you're reading list you gave me and researched some of those women authors, perhaps my thinking was wrong, and the writings might convince me to change my mind which is: Prostitution is inherently bad leading to a downward spiral to the abyss, and the employers are even worst and are even evil in they're ways of exploit young *****s.

Rn, nothing in your authors convinced me otherwise. Lets look at a few of these harlot writers:

Maghlene Meretrix, is the most interesting of all the writers, and should be a must read for the new hookers. One chapter in the book deal with sexual burnout, and how to lessen the work.( cheat the man) What I found most interesting about the book is that others who bought the book also enjoyed, "Strap on Dildo Hardness" what the fuck is that about?

Jessica Winchester, is nothing but a ex ripoff hooker in Las Vegas,( Vegas pro's over charge $400 to $500 for a fuck) She is Libertarian in politics, she found politics to be dirty more so then fucking.( everyone knows this already; Libertarian's have been around for some time in the US, still they make no inroads.) RN, are you a Libertarian? then you must love guns, lets go shooting.

Norma Pandering, ex LAPD cop, who was convicted on pandering charges while on duty, just another disgruntled worker, yes the LAPD doesn't treat women cops well. ( I know lots of people from LAPD, its not as bad as she says.) she is a Libertarian too, who cares about her polictics?

Dolores French, is the worst of the bunch, she started hooking when she was 27, she should be retiring at that age, yet stayed in it for 22 years. She is nothing but a fat old hooker with big tits.(I saw the picture) She does rip off phone sex, and is proud of the fact that she once made a guy put bengay on his just shaved balls! I told you these *****s try to rip off John's every chance they get.

According to French, the average lenght of working girls is 3 1/2 years, I read somewhere else its more like 5 years. If this life is so good, why only 3 to 5 years in the business.

I say fuck prostitutes before they fuck you, and always keep your eyes on your wallet.

[Rubber Nursey]

It's quite obvious to me that your problem is not with sex workers - it's with women in general. All I can say is it's now VERY easy to see why every hooker you visit steals from you or rips you off. And ...more than likely...laughs about your very small penis when you leave.

[Joe Zop]

Whew, amen, RN. But I guess since he considers mongers to be exploiters, himself included, Pokey is an equal-opportunity loather.

Let's see: the average career length of an NFL player is 4 years, an NBA player 4.5 years, a NHL player 5 years, and a major league baseball player 2.7 years. The average salary of each of these is over a million dollars a year and they're just using their bodies to make money. If these lives are so good, why only 3-5 years in the business?

[Rubber Nursey]

"But I guess since he considers mongers to be exploiters, himself included, Pokey is an equal-opportunity loather".

Oh, I don't know about that...he says 'Prostitution is inherently bad leading to a downward spiral to the abyss, and the employers are even worst and are even evil in they're ways of exploit young *****s'. Seems to me that he reckons sex workers are spiralling into the abyss and employers are exploiting them, but I see no mention of the 'evil' clients who participate in these abuses.

I would say Pokey is definitely speaking from personal experience when he says all sex workers are exploited and all brothel owners are criminals - and I suspect that's because he actively seeks out only those sorts of establishments.

[Joe Zop]

Posted by Pokey in this thread on 4-10-04:

"We as mongers are exploiting sex workers, especially if we are going to 3rd world countries to do it, and paying them the equivalent to less them $10 in our currency."

and

"I want to one day want to clean up my act and quit mongering, but today is not that day."

In other words, he's an exploiter, but such is life, and it doesn't bother him enough to change, though there's no problem whacking at those who help him "exploit" (nor at those he exploits.) I'll refrain from engaging in any psychobabble about that, though it's darn tempting!

[Rubber Nursey]

it's kind of like stumbling across a gang-[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) in progress and saying "hey, why not...she's being raped already..."

makes my stomach churn.

[Pokey]

JZ, I been watching the Olympics the last few weeks on TV and It's absurd of you to compare highly trained professional athletes with prostitutes who do what comes naturally; speading they're legs for a living, although some do kagal exercises making their pussy's tight.

I do have to admit there are similarities though. The number one reason why athletes have to quit, is someone better and younger comes around, same thing for hookers, younger, prettier hookers come around with tight pussy's, not a over used stretched out pussy. This is why pro's should consider retiring in the late 20's and should be shot if still working past 30. ( I never fuck a pro past 25; I usually like mine between 18 and 22)

RN, it just dawned on me that you might have been one of those authors, if so my apoligies to you. Don't take it to hard, I'm too old to go to clubs and pickup young 18-22 years olds, and my stomach is too big. But, why did you have to say I had a little dick? That's hitting below the belt. Seriously, I thought hookers liked guys with little dick? Less wear and tear! I just love it when working girls tell me I have a big dick, but one time in South Central LA, one girl said my dick was small-that hurt, still remember it.( I guess she was use to those black guys, myth)

Yes, mongers are exploiters too, including me. There is nothing I like best then taking advantage of a poor off FOB working girl. I'll give her an extra $10 to go without a condom, and I'll come in her after promising to take my dick out before I come. ( I exclude men in wheelchairs, or old lonely men who maybe just lost his wife)


But in the pecking order of scum: It's the sex worker's employers first, followed by prostitutes', and bringing up the rear is the innocent monger.

[Rubber Nursey]

"RN, it just dawned on me that you might have been one of those authors, if so my apoligies to you".

Nope...but two of them are online 'friends' of mine that I chat to regularly. I gave you those names because you said you wanted to hear from 'happy hookers' who had had positive experiences in the industry. Instead you ignored what they said about sex work and picked at their individual characters instead. I said in my post that you wouldn't listen to what they had to say and it seems I was right.

"Seriously, I thought hookers liked guys with little dick?"

Nope...that is a myth, made up by guys with little dicks.

[Joe Zop]

Hey, Pokey, my examples were posted in response to your question about why someone would spend so little time in a career if it wasn't terrible. All I did was provide an couple of example most people don't think of as awful where careers are also short.

I could have gone in a very similar area and said, for example, that the median career of a major league baseball umpire is seven years, which seems fairly short. Perhaps that's even a better example, given how low an opinion many people have of them, same as sex workers! :D

[Rubber Nursey]

There's lots of reasons why hookers only stay in the industry short term and getting too old for it isn't really one of them. No matter how old you get or how much weight you put on or what your hair colour is...there will always be clients out there that like your 'type'.

Common reasons to leave, amongst other things, is that they:
* Use sex work to pay for Uni studies and then quit hooking to begin their new career,
* Work for a short while to get themselves back on their feet after a divorce, before settling back into being a stay at home Mum,
* Get a new partner/get married,
* Develop a medical problem (backache or RSI, for example) and they can no longer work in such a physical occupation,
* Can't cope with having to constantly lie to all their friends and family about what they do for a living. (We did a survey in my city and this was the major problem that sex workers had with their jobs - 'living a double life' causes burnout, depression, panic attacks, and all sorts of other stress related psychological and physical problems).

Then of course there are people who leave because they hate it - like in any other job - and others who move into different parts of the sex industry, like phone sex or dancing or opening their own brothel. Suprisingly enough, women don't become hookers just for the 'privilege' of satisfying men every day. They have their own dreams and aspirations.

[Your Guest]

Dear Joe,

Just to set the record right

What made you believe that I do not consider consensual commercial sex, consensual sex between adults? I Do.

I say that generally only criminals would be involved in a criminal activity. If prohbition were to be reintroduced in the US would any body but the Al Capone types sell alcohol?

It is not a persons involvement that makes it criminal only a criminally inclined person would be probably involved in a criminal activity?

The only way out Legalise Commercial Sex Activities.

Take care,

Love

Yogesh

[Your Guest]

Hey Folks,

I think that Pokey is talking sense, and that Joe and RN are hypocrites as far as this subject goes. I justify as follows;

RN attaches great virtue to experience. She wants us to give importance to the views of CSWs and not of others such as academics etc. However she deprecates Pokey when he bases his opinion on his experiences. When she runs out of logic she makes snide remarks about the size or rather the lack of it, of Pokey’s penis. Shame.

Pokey comes across as an honest man, he admits that he is a human has his failings, (copulation with CSWs), and he hopes to come out of it.

Joe on the other hand admits only to have correct sex, clean and consensual, as mythical as the Atlantis.

I do not agree with every thing that Pokey has to say, especially his pecking order, however he has a right to have an opinion. Neither do I disagree with all that Joe and RN have written.

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh

[Your Guest]

Dear RN,

You wrote

"There's lots of reasons why hookers only stay in the industry short term and getting too old for it isn't really one of them. No matter how old you get or how much weight you put on or what your hair colour is...there will always be clients out there that like your 'type"

When a fact stares at you, you seem to just shut your eyes, old age induced retirement is a fact of life especially for those who have to do physical work or look attractive for a living, yes screwing old hags might give a pervert kinks, and she woould cater to a very small minority, like a speciality store, catering to a pevert among pevert.

I with your permission suggest that you could have said "perhaps getting old isn't the ONLY one of them."

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh.

[Tango91]

RN,

Your reports are awesome. You have balanced, mature and objective views, and you seem to have a lot of patience. I love reading your reports and have learnt a lot from reading your reports. Keep up the good work.

[Rubber Nursey]

I'd just like to apologise for my childish behaviour last night. I'll try and keep the sarcasm and mud-slinging to a minimum from now on.

[Rock Dog]

Hey there RN,

We have never really talked directly to each other yet, although you may have read some of my posts. I've certainly enjoyed reading many of yours!

It's really nice to have a female point of view present here in this forum, or any forum for that matter. It serves as a nice counterbalance to all the testosterone fuelled posturing that goes on sometimes :).

I don't think I've ever read anything in one of your posts that you should feel the need for any kind of apology. RN, just keep on saying whatever you feel like saying.

You won't hear any complaints from me ;)

Rock

[Cash Works]

RN,

Thanks for the offer Baby! Would it offend you to know that I haven't worn a tie in about 12 years? That was at a friends wedding - the only time I wore a tie for work was during the initial interview nearly 20 years ago.

If I ever get over to your neck of the woods, I'll have to look you up.

Pokey, et al.

Happy Hooker/successful business women, etc:
The first hooker I ever met would probably fit into this category (I'm pretty sure I've written about her here before). She wasn't happy when I met her - somebody had just stolen her purse. She was from LA, but was working the world fair & expo in New Orleans (1984?). She had plan that basically boiled down to working in the busines for 3-5 years, then retiring & living off her investments. She wasn't strung out, seemed to have a good head on her shoulders and she had a huge impact on my views of prostitutes and prostitution, I also started taking a more critical view of the news media and "Cultural opinion" because she definitely didn't fit the mold that was cast by either of those institutions.

A year after meeting the hooker in New Orleans, I was working in South America & was shocked to find that a number of my colleagues would actually check into a brothel rather than a hotel when they were on break from work. Their argument was that the brothels were actually less expensive than the nice hotels along the beach and MORE SECURE (that was the shocking part). Many of these guys had had stuff stolen out of their hotel rooms and even out of the hotel safe - they said that was never the case at a brothel - because the brothel mangement and the girls were so aware of the notion of prostitute = thief, that they were very diligent in making sure that their guests and his belongings were safe. The deal they made usually included per day: a room, their choice of one girl/night, 3-5 bottles of beer and breakfast in the morning. I never actually tried this out myself primarily due to the fact that you were restricted to selecting only the girls working at the brothel you were living in, so I would have not been allowed to bring in a girl I met on the beach (believe it or not, I found this too restrictive).

As for the notion of prostitute = thief, I hope you can tell from my post, that I don't subscirbe to this. Have I been ripped off by a prostitute? Yes I have. Do I therefore think ALL prostitutes are thieves? Hell no. In my experience, most are very honest. I was once at a bar with some friends (Fortaleza, Brasil) - we had been drinking rather heavily and I was, in my opinion, too drunk and wound up spending the night alone. In the morning, I found that most of the money I had with me the previous night (would have been less than US $50 because I never carried more than this with me - just in case) was missing - I wrote it off as having been lost due to my drunken stupor from the previous night. A couple nights later, I was back at that same bar (not nearly as drunk this time) and one of the girls, who I had never met, gave me a wad of money (US $30-40) - she explained that she saw another girl (who I knew to be a thief) pick my pocket, was offended by it and got my money back from her, but I had left the bar before she was able to return the money to me. I was so amazed at her sense of propriety, that I gave half the money to her for a finders fee, then later that night I wound up taking her home and gave her the rest as payment for her services that night - yes, back in those days, US $10-15 was the going rate for TLN in Fortaleza, Brasil.

CW

[The Virgin Terr]

Question for RN: can getting paid for sex make an experience enjoyable which would otherwise not be so? Put it this way: men and women are different psychologically, because women get pregnant and men don't, which is probably why women are much less inclined to engage in 'casual' sex than men.

I'm confused by the fact that money is the deciding factor for female prostitutes engaging in mutually enjoyable sex. generally the prostitutes i've been with i believe enjoyed having sex with me. i could be wrong, but i try to choose a (paid) sex partner based on attitude as well as looks. i choose ones who appear friendly and relaxed, and then when it comes time for sex, i try to be sensitive to her pleasure as well as my own, resulting usually in what appears to me as a mutually pleasurable encounter. but i know that without money, i wouldn't be getting any, pleasure or no. so i hypothesize that getting paid is a pre-requisite to being able to overcome a woman's skittishness about 'casual' sex with a guy who isn't exceptionally attractive. payment is compensation for a woman's deep-seated instinctual reservations about engaging in an act which creates new life and enormous responsibilities for her under completely natural circumstances (i.e. no contraception), not to mention the health hazards which accompany pregnancy and childbirth.

So to repeat: can getting paid to have sex with someone u wouldn't otherwise have 'casual sex' with affect your psyche so that not only will u engage in sex, but also feel free to enjoy it? In other words, imagine if u can agreeing to have sex with any man who asks for it politely and respectfully, but offers no payment. would this sort of promiscuity be less inherently enjoyable than your professional tricks? Is there a psychological aspect to getting paid for sex which enhances your physical enjoyment?

[Wicked SH]

sorry for being gone for awhile, but been busy.

i personally have had the experience with all types of workers. i for one don't believe in slavery, or violence. but i have seen both, it isn't pretty, and is one of the key reasons to legalize prostitution. women can't fight if they are breaking the law. it is sad but true. how can a 21 year old sw go into the police station and tell them how some guy beat the shit out of her and hide that she was beat while performing services for money. she is afraid they will throw her in jail, or won't do anything to the customer. even if they do she now has a record that stays with her. she can't do anything. that is the definition of victim.

i have also had thieves and lousy lays also. i can't go to the cops for the same reason the sw can't. i like all johns worry about the diseases. this could be tested for in a legalized system. granted you still have to use protection because most diseases have latency before they can be detected. but if you know the girls have to be tested weekly then you know that the odds are less in the event the condom breaks.

but my personal experience is that most workers are not slaves, or victimized. they do it for the money. it is easy money for a girl that can't do any professional career. she can earn more money that a nurse or a lawyer. even in allot of the third world it is the same. take china, allot of the workers i have talked with here make between 6,000 rmb and 20,000 rmb. yes 6,000 rmb is less than a 1000 us. but in china the average salary is currently about 1300 rmb. these girls would be the ones making between 600 and 1000 rmb a month in a factory. if you were a girl which would you pick? factory or sex. also take into account that mortality rates in most factories is very high. there isn't something like osha in america protecting workers safety. for those thinking but these are attractive girls, they could go to school and get a 'good job.' remember that education for chinese is inexpensive except for the prestige universities. but the problem is that in order to get into university you have to study hard and score well on tests. many girls and boys simply aren't smart enough to go to university. they are expected to work.

yes some women are exploited. but they would be just as exploited in other jobs. in the factory they would be expected to sleep with the boss to get a pay raise or keep her job. not to mention that even if she isn't sexually exploited every man and women that work for the small pay factory workers in china make are exploited. it is the nature of things. i do my best to not exploit anyone. i try to treat every one of them like she was a good girl friend. if i sense or think that a girl is victimized or was kidnapped or such i try to vote with my dollars and use establishments that are legit. well as legit as can be since it is illegal. it doesn't change the girls’ situation, but by supporting good people it helps to reduce the number of bad. i only hope others think the same way.

yogesh i ask you this. with your limited experience in the world how can you feel such convictions? was your sister, daughter, or wife kidnapped forced into sex slavery? you have never seen a brothel, visited them all over the world, and been to hundreds of providers. you base your convictions on american and other movies that always depict women as exploited regardless of if she is a sex worker. although especially if she is. they show them getting violently beaten by customers, or pimps. books put out by liberal feminists, or conservative religious zealots. none of these are accurate ways to gauge any subject in the world. neither is reading a few books put out by pimps or workers, or customers. you have to look at the body of evidence and experience the world yourself in order to get a balanced view. even this is simply based on your own point of view, but it won't be corrupted by a narrow information set. if you go to workers for awhile you will meet great women, bad women, thieves, kind women, lazy women, fun women and all other kinds. most will be normal they will do their job, not make a bunch of fuss, not steal or deceive. most will tell you they started working because of the money, some will say it was that they like sex. i have been with girls that want to have 100 orgasms a day and no single man can provide that many.

in america it was legal in most places until 1900-1950. in china it was outlawed along with multiple wives in 1949 with communism. around the world it seems that some time between 1900 and 1950 is when most of the laws where put into effect. you might ask why after 1900 seems the magical number. i say that it is because that is when women were allowed to vote. women used their new found power to try to control men. try to prevent them from having extra-marital activities. it back fired of course. women still provided the services, but now it was underground. the women that voted for it and pushed for the laws found that now they didn't know where there men were going. but the men still went. so now the women had engineered a way for men to exploit them even worse than when it was legal. it is also no coincidence that after it became illegal teen pregnancy sky rocketed. dating started to include sexual activities, and the incidences of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) drastically increased. from a feminists perspective even more exploitation. this of coarse has led to more laws which of coarse back fires because of the law of unintended consequences.

also linking prostitution to other crimes is ridiculous. prostitution isn’t run by drug dealers. it might be in some places say new york city. but in most other places it is ran by normal people. maybe the worker is self-employed going to bars or walking the street. maybe the worker is in a massage parlor. but in most cases there isn’t a drug connection. yes some percentage of the workers takes drugs. but some percentages of workers in mcdonalds are drug addicts also.

i will stop here. just my 2 cents.

[Rubber Nursey]

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/acc_ctte/sexual_servitude/submissions/sub27.pdf

re: 'sexual slavery'

[Joe Zop]

Very nice, RN -- I was struck by this quote "Our organizations have collectively had direct contact with less than ten women in the last year who have been deceptively recruited." (Out of the 400 estimated to come into Oz each year on contracts for sex work.) Obviously, even one is too many, but it does help place things in context.

Have you had much contact with Empower (mentioned in the report -- a Thailand organization that works to help sex workers there)? I met the director in India, saw some of their work my last time in LOS and have been very impressed by them.

[Rubber Nursey]

Like you said, even one woman being 'deceptively recruited' is too many ...however, even that has to be looked at in context. The two girls that I talked about in my post the other day were both 'deceptively recruited' and they went through a lot of pain and fear and distress when that deception was discovered. BUT, like I said in my post, both of those girls had not only come to terms with the deception ...they had come to appreciate it. They suddenly had an opportunity to make a lot of money (and tour a foreign country in the process) and they did NOT want to go home by the time I met them. I am in no way attempting to condone the kidnapping and trafficking of women, mind you - I'm just saying that in some cases, the situation is not as cut and dried as some law-makers and 'do-gooders' think.

There are contract workers who came by choice, contract workers who didn't COME by choice but now choose to stay and then there are sex slaves. There is a huge difference and current legislation, worldwide, refuses to acknowledge that. As usual, that is primarily because Governments continue to create policy based on myths and stereotypes, rather than consulting people who understand the industry.

And no, unfortunately I haven't met anyone from Empower. But two of my best friends attended a recent conference in Bangkok and had the pleasure of getting to know people from Empower and other international sex worker activist/advocate organisations. They are going to put me in touch now that I finally have email access again.

[Joe Zop]

Well, I do think those who "didn't COME by choice but now choose to stay" are a problematic area, as it's rather more difficult to figure out the truth of their situation. Some may well simply say, "this is ultimately worth doing for the money" and particularly in cultures where such things are accepted that may be ok, but others may be suffering from psychological trauma at what's happened to them, and such a decision could be a coping mechanism as opposed to a true choice. If you're "ruined" by such a situation (and certainly, reputation-wise, that can unfortunately be the case if you were transported home as a victim of sex-trafficking) it may simply be the choice of the lesser of two evils -- by staying you still have some degree of deniability for the folks back home.

And Empower's website is at http://www.empowerfoundation.org/ and though lots of it is in Thai, there are some interesting things on it in English as well. (I've always loved the quote they lifted from Helen Gurley Brown: "Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go everywhere.")

[Rubber Nursey]

Absolutely -- and like I said, I certainly don't want to appear to be condoning trafficking. It's just that there's so much more to every individual woman's story than the Government and the Immigration Department are willing to hear.

And the issue of immediate deportation absolutely infuriates me, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Here, these girls are deported within 48 hours - often in less than 24. Officials don't ask them how they've been treated or whether or not they want to stay, they don't offer them trauma counselling or medical assistance, they don't offer them legal advice, nor do they usually allow them contact with the local sex worker agency. They just pack them off to their home country - 'ruined' as you say - and forever branded a prostitute.

The idea that this legislation was created to PROTECT women HARMED by sex slavery and trafficking, is laughable.

[Joe Zop]

Doesn't the government simply consider them as "illegal aliens" and treat them accordingly? Such persons are generally not given much benefit of the doubt in just about any country -- mine included.

[Your Guest]

We are getting some where folks!

[Pokey]

yogesh, i agree with you especially that part about al capone. right on.

jz, what are you doing haging around a "empower" organization? isn't that a little like the "fox guarding the henhouse". i hope at least you reveal you're a debaucherous monger in the worldwide quest for the golden pussy!

rn, i saw you apology to who i don't know, but no need for one. this is a bare-knuckled forum, and you will be challenged at times, especially over you're agenda of hooker rights, happy hooker, and *****s are nice people too.

i'm shocked that you condone that women are "deceptively recruited, go through a lot of pain, but then learn to like it".
true or not, that's like saying some women enjoy getting raped. it has no place, not even to even mention it. i'm sure you're numbers are right too, because all women who are deceptively or really kidnapped report to organizations that do good work for prostitutes, and they trust them too. ( jz isn't the only fox watching the henhouse here!)

once again prostitution is a perverted, disgusting, twisted profession that is ran by sick depraved people taking advantage of both girls, and customers. customers are debaucherous people , who start out fucking for fun, but sometimes end up getting cheated, or worst end up addicted to sex ruining they're life and their family if they have one.

prostitution should be kept in the dark in the shadowy world of the gutter, where it's always more fun.

if we legalize prostitution it will only get boring, and more expensive by paying taxes and unions. ( what would i do about the bbbj that i enjoy so much?)

lets keep sex nasty; besides the girls are only in it a few years anyways.

[Joe Zop]

Pokey, I met the Empower's director in completely different circumstances in another country, and when I came to LOS I went to visit also under an unrelated issue, and then got a good sense of what they do, but I fail to see how being around an organization that works for the rights of sex workers is "the fox guarding the henhouse." More like a visit from the rooster.

I'm all for the rights of sex workers -- having a safe industry where women feel secure and shielded and that has only willing workers means I'm dealing only with adults who are truly consenting, who willingly provide services in return for my money, and both of us have a clear sense of the circumstances and rules. I see that as being to my advantage in the same way an equitable exchange works in any business situation. You're the one who revels in being an unapologetic exploiter -- not me.

I hope RN whacks you most ungraciously, as you very clearly are either only out to provoke or else you have a major reading comprehension problem, as she most certainly didn't say she condoned women being forced -- in fact, she said exactly the opposite, that women shouldn't be forced on any level, including being forced to leave a situation where they'd made a decision to stay regardless of the circumstances of how they came to be there.

When you're done trolling here and in the streets, toodle over and get some serious psychotherapy to help you deal with that high sense of self-loathing you're carrying around as a debauched, addicted person. (Or else I suppose you could just go watch your "Passion of the Christ" DVD a few hundred more times and turn your caps lock key on.) Then enroll in a nighttime writing class -- despite toying with his mantle, you not only lack Dickhead's flair, you're missing his underlying humor and good sense.

[Rubber Nursey]

joe,
australia has relatively new 'sexual servitude' laws (early last year i think?) which is what the submission i posted was written in response to. what they consider a 'sex slave' is very cut and dried - effectively anyone who was transported from another country to engage in prostitution. it doesn't matter whether these women came under duress or voluntarily. in fact, this legislation doesn't really consider the issue of consent at all. if you're a foreign hooker, you are a victim of trafficking and sexual slavery - end of story. incidentally, this law causes havoc for girls on student visas who choose to work in the sex industry while they study in australia, because this legislation also applies to them.

yogesh,
you said: "with your i permission suggest that you could have said "perhaps getting old isn't the only one of them."
no...i meant what i said. getting too old is not really one of the reasons why people leave the sex industry, because in most cases women have already left the industry by then, due to the other reasons i listed.

you also said: "rn attaches great virtue to experience....however she deprecates pokey when he bases his opinion on his experiences".
actually, i said in my original post that what pokey had experienced was also true, even though his experience was different to mine. i don't doubt for a moment that pokey has had the experiences he's written about - i have repeatedly stated that i know exploitation and trafficking and all those other abuses exist. what i resent is the assumption that because it happens to some sex workers, it must be happening to all sex workers.

rock dog, tango and cash works,
thank you for the kind words. :) and cash works...your post was beautiful.

pokey,
ohhh where do i start? i'm not going to get into a pissing war with you. i know that's what you want - if you'd wanted a serious debate, you would have considered who you were talking to before flinging insults around about sex workers.

as for your pecking order of filth...there are only two players on my list. brothel owners who force women to be sex slaves and clients who knowingly patronise their establishments. everyday sex workers are just earning a quid. clients are just purchasing a service from a consenting adult. syndicates and crooked brothel owners may be abhorrent, but they are exploiting these poor women for money. what's your excuse? you get off on the thought that she hates you? that she's being raped every time you hire her? that she's probably going to cry herself to sleep when you leave? that you can dump your load in her and infect her with god knows what, but it doesn't matter because there will be all new girls next time you visit?

clients like you are the filth of the sex industry, pokey. without you, there would be no money in trafficking or sex slavery and these people would, hopefully, go out of business. don't you dare blame the women involved, who are the innocent victims of your lust and lack of self control. i don't care whether they lie to you, rob you, or beat you over the head while you're sleeping ...they are the victims, the syndicate owners are the conspirators and you, sir, are the perpetrator.

[Your Guest]

Dear RN,

You have written

"Clients like you are the filth of the sex industry, Pokey. Without you, there would be no money in trafficking or sex slavery and these people would, hopefully, go out of business. Don't you DARE blame the women involved, who are the innocent victims of YOUR lust and lack of self control. I don't care whether they lie to you, rob you, or beat you over the head while you're sleeping ...they are the VICTIMS, the syndicate owners are the conspirators and you, sir, are the perpetrator."

Now you have come to the point , this is what I was writing all the time, check all my posts, it is the perfect description of the relationship, most CSW's are the victims, and the pimps (this word is used to denote every body who earns money from the lay without getting f****d) however are the perpetrators, and the clients are the accomplices.

You started the row with Pokey by geting personal, why can't we have an academic and impersonal.

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh

[Travis Bickle 2]

i have been reading with interest all your reports for about a month now. things must be a lot different in the rest of the world than here in the united states. listening to rn and others i get the impression that most sex workers enjoy their work and are in it for fulfillment, money, to support their families, and that it is a viable career choice. i'm surprised that in a lot of areas that high school career counselors don't tell their students to consider it; especially if they're stuggling with grades, etc.

i read with interest rn's list of reasons why sex workers leave their field of work. over here where prostitution is illegal (with the exception of a small number of brothels in nevada), most of those reasons wouldn't rank in the top ten.

leaving hooking to finish up at the university: most sw's over here haven't completed high school. most are addicted to drugs and alcohol, have been arrested numerous times, have diseases, etc. here is my list of common reasons they leave the profession:

1) they overdose on heroin and die.

2) they are suffering from aids or have been diagnosed with hiv.

3) having continued to work after testing postive for hiv, they are subsequently arrested and are serving time.

4) are serving a sentence for drug possession, sales, or some other crime.

5) have been killed by a serial killer (some estimates as high as 100 in washington state alone in the past 15 years). this state is home to both ridgway and yates.

6) are in drug treatment or in recovery and feel that hooking and being around old acquaintances is not in the best interest of their recovery.

7) yes, too old. some of the old ones are still working. but you can see them standing on the same corner for five or six hours before someone actually picks them up. i've actually felt sorry for them and driven up and given them a ten spot.

from my list a lot of people will say that it is an endorsement for legalization of prostitution. after all most of these wouldn't occur in a brothel or massage parlor.

the problem is and it is well-documented is that where prostitution is legalized there is also a large increase in illegal prostitution. everywhere i read about legal sex work i also see a flourishing street market. las vegas, amsterdam, tijuana, even thailand. some places that have legalized it have actually reversed themselves (or are attempting to) because of an increase in problems.

for one thing most brothels are too expensive for a lot of guys and most have rules. if a brothel charges 100.00 for a cbj, then a savvy sw will realize that if she charges 50 for bbbj a block down the street she will have more business than she knows what to do with. so, even with legalized prostitution you still have the age old problem of drug addicted hookers having unsafe sex with guys like pokey. it attracts drug dealers, pimps, and other types of criminals. everyone wants their share of the pie.

some of you make it sound like hookers are successful, well-adjusted, happy people who are working for a living like anyone else.

almost all statistics i've read (and i've had experience in the health and drug treatment field) shows that sex workers have a much higher prevalence of tabacco use, drug and alcohol use, accident rates, suicide, std rate, [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), violence, arrest, much lower life expectancy, mental illness, and on and on. to say that being a sex worker is a viable career choice like being a businesswoman is ridiculous. i have yet to have a working girl tell me she hopes her daughter will follow in her footsteps because it's such a great way to pay the bills.

also, this whole debate on whether working gals will rip you off or not. most sw's will given a chance. most of the threads over here contain numerous discussions of how to prevent this. of course in a brothel it wouldn't happen as often because the gal would soon lose her job.

but a sg surely will given half a chance. someone who is already breaking the law hardly blinks at petty theft. i rarely get ripped off because i'm careful but it's been attempted many times.

face it. prostitution is hard to get out of once you get in. you get used to the money and it's hard to think about working 8 hours for 10 or 15 bucks an hour. but to glamorize it as some of you do is just crazy.

civ2000

[Your Guest]

Dear folks,

Forgive me for repeating but I like Pokey's attitude. He is straight forward and honest in his remarks. However I personally feel that this should NOT be a brawl, a little civility would not hurt any body.

If Pokey has had terrible experiences with CSWs, he has a right to share them with us, however it is not fair on his part to draw general conclusions based on them.

Again I differ with his remark that prostitution should be run in the dark on the sly, on the contrary it should be legalised, taxed, subject to health, employee welfare, safety and other necessary regulations.

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh

[Joe Zop]

ah, rn's response caused me to notice yogesh's new posts, which i missed before...

"joe on the other hand admits only to have correct sex, clean and consensual, as mythical as the atlantis"

let's see now, saying i'm interested in having a consenting partner somehow makes things mythical? this says a lot more about your perspective on sex than it does mine! you're perfectly willing to give credence to pokey's horror stories about hanging out in dives in mexico, since they support your point of view, but my examples from other places bear no weight? gee, that's an objective approach -- and a bias that brings my conversations with you to an end, since it's clear that you're only interested in promoting the point of view that prostitution is inherently evil as are those who engage in it -- regardless of what others say.

two last comments to you.

first, yes, i've seen the kinds of places and situations pokey's described. unlike him, i avoid them. if i can walk away from a sex worker who i think might be ****d or have an std, i can certainly decide not to patronize one who seems to me not to be in the business willingly. it is possible to think with your brain and your heart as opposed to just with your dick, if you try. i didn't, for example, head out to gb road while i was in delhi, and in fact avoided the whole p4p scene in india entirely because i felt i couldn't be certain of the specifics what i would be getting into. it's an approach that's really not difficult.

second, if you think my approach is mythical, then all your blather about legalization is just that -- if it's possible when it's legal then it's also possible now. thinking that legalization is some sort of panacea for all ills is what it truly an illusory perspective. there are plenty of places now where prostitution is either legal or tacitly overlooked and in some of them things are pretty good and in some not. but the bottom line is i've had utterly no problem in my travels finding partners who were clearly working of their own free will. and if i don't find them, i don't partake in the scene.

[Your Guest]

Dear Civ2000,

The "guys like Pokey" line was unwarranted.

You have hit the nail on its head when you ridicule RN's attempt to project Commercial Sex Work as a career option.

It isn't even a great profession even for those who make lot of money in a short span of time. This is because making money is hard enough, and making investments to ensure comfortable retired life is harder. The only skills that they have developed are lying on their back and spreading their legs, they just do not have the knowledge of creating investments which would support them in their non productive lives.

[Joe Zop]

While I agree with you, Civ2000, that streetwalkers in the US fall heavily into the categories you mention, those are not the only sex workers around. (Estimates I've seen say they account for only 10-20% of the sex workers in larger cities such as LA and NYC.) I've met the cracked-out shells you describe, of course, and I think the incidence of the problems you mention is probably higher in the US than in most places, but I've met plenty of US escorts who are well-educated, drug and disease-free, non-smokers, etc., as well. And the truth is that the incidence of HIV in non-drug-using sex workers in the US is extremely low. Can you point to any of the stats you mention that make any distinction between streetwalkers and other sex workers? Because I don't think there's a lot of argument that streetwalkers have tons more issues and problems.

There are plenty of problems in fields that aren't "glamorized" -- the average auto worker, for example, lives five years after retiring, and a high percentage end up with physical maladies, substance abuse problems, etc. Doctors, dentists, cops. female artists, etc. all have higher than normal suicide rates. And so on. Guess we should discourage our kids from going into any of those, as well.

But in truth I don't think the issue is one of glamorizing -- it's more saying, ok, there should be a way for someone who's doing this to be safe, non-coerced, and to have some control over her life, and some sex workers do in fact have this. Not all, but some.

[Your Guest]

Hey Joey,

My comment was just an exageration and made to convey sarcasm.

I very much appreciate your ethical approach which is clear from your statement that you avoided P4P in India, as there was place for doubt. I've never been to Delhi, but I'm sure it is too filthy too consider even otherwise.

I repeat that you are a gem and an honourable (if you may allow me) exception, atleast in this particular instance.

I did not read any of your examples or experiences, there haven't been any?? posted of late. It was your irritating hypothetical, pious, banter, the holier than thou airs which provoked me into making that illogical statement.

You have given an example (Delhi, India ) and I have raised my hat in salute.

I hope this sets te record straight. Looking forward to more of these friendly skirmishes.

Also probably you are right when you write that I consider prostitution and all those who are involved inherently evil. (however it is too strong a word), on the other hand I would say I consider it disagreeable. I hope you allow me the luxury of the right to have an opinion.

You are in your rage contradicting yourself, you write "But the bottom line is I've had utterly no problem in my travels finding partners who were clearly working of their own free will" and you admit that you were unable to in India, in other words you had a problem in a place which has 7% of the world's land mass and 20% of the worlds population, is that not a large problem?

[Your Guest]

So folks the argument has narrowed down to SOME!! V/S MOST!! V/S ALL!!

"A" writes SOME are drug free,

"B" counters ALL are thieves,

"C" writes MOST are coerced.

So the diference is just in degrees.

[Travis Bickle 2]

Joe Zop, I carry with me a unique perspective which I have gleaned from my personal experiences and history.

I have gone from a respected health care worker in both the hospital and drug treatment environments and had a drug addiction problem myself which landed me in prison for several years.

I have not only experienced prostitution as a customer, but as a health care provider, counselor, and fellow junkie shooting up with them in drug houses.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of high priced escorts and dancers that had drug problems. I can remember both using and selling drugs with escorts who were shooting up in their ankles to avoid having their customers and bosses find out about their drug use or using cosmetics to cover up the tracks on their arms.

Especially with opiate addiction, the girls look quite nice. A lot of the escorts use for years and only when things really fall apart do they have to resort to street hooking. So, I do think a lot more high class hookers use drugs than most guys care to believe. Also, most are extremely motivated by money and if a guy offers an extra fifty for bbbj they are likely to go for it. In fact I pick up women all the time that are escorts but have to resort to street hooking because the economy is slow and guys are reluctant to pay five times as much for a comparable street girl.

Also, I think the rate of HIV is much higher in these groups than previously thought. There is currently a large study in San Francisco studying the rate of HIV infection in women working in AMP's. These AMP's are thought of by most guys to be quite a bit safer than street prostitution (disease-wise) but they're finding a lot of them testing postive for HIV.

One thing about SW's here in America. Whenever they go to jail for hooking they get tested for HIV -- mandatory. One gal named Jennifer that we talk about on the Seattle board has been arrested and subsequently tested for HIV over 50 times in just the last three years alone. How many escort or AMP women can make that claim?

Also, I knew someone would throw out that cops, doctors, dentists have a greater than average incidence of suicide, drinking, etc. But no where near the rate of sex workers. How many cops, doctors, and dentists have been killed by a serial killer in the Seattle area the past fifteen years?

I really can't really speak for the rest of you but if my daughter wanted to be a prostitute I'd feel really bad about her decision.


Civ2000

[Your Guest]

Dear Civ2000,

"I really can't really speak for the rest of you but if my daughter wanted to be a prostitute I'd feel really bad about her decision."

A classic case of understatement. Ugh!!

[Your Guest]

Dear Joe,

I wrote a few days ago, "Joe on the other hand admits only to have correct sex, clean and consensual, as mythical as the Atlantis.", I have clarified earlier today that it was an exageration, there is another angle too, that is I alleged that your admission was not true, fictional, mythical, that is because I felt then that yourclaim of ALWAYS was a bit too far fetched. You say you abstained in India when you were not sure, I take your word for it.

Take care,

Love,

Yogesh

[Pokey]

RN, you are right and I do like to rock the boat a little at times, but just look we have a great discussion going now. I don't hang out at WGS too much anymore but when I was reading you're discussion with JZ it just made me want to throwup, and the attacks on Yogesh, well I just couldn't resist jumping in.

I think I brought up the same points as Civ2000 about prostitution being a viable career choice in high schools too. I'm sorry but the way you talk it sounds that way. I had more then 25 years fucking hookers, from lowly street *****s, to high class hookers in places like Hawii, Las Vegas and a lot of different places around the world.( I spend 80% of my time in Mexico now)

This life you talk about is not glamorous on any level. I wept reading about one of you're successful authors who after going on a TV show a high in her life was confronted by her mother, who told her, "if you needed money why didn't you just come to us." Oh I felt the hurt, lets face it-nobody loves a prostitute, not even themselves.

JZ, I noticed you did a little psychobabble about me. Well, I think I should do the same to you, wouldn't you agree.

You oviously work or worked in a 3rd rate University, most likely in the English field, since you seem to delight in words as much as pussy. You dream, no you are consumed thinking about fucking young coed girls on campus, but don't have the balls to really do it. So instead of fucking them, you travel to Thailand looking for young college types to fuck, and impress with you're knowledge. But, since you are sick like the rest of Mongers, you'll stick your dick in any pussy you can find. Since you can't go to Thailand all the time, you spend you days just thinking about pussy, and reading WSG and posting, but it really can't substitute for pussy.

JZ, If you ever make it down to San Diego, look me up I'll take you to TJ and we could take turns fucking young 18 year olds who came to the city under false pretences, but who learned to live with it.( they are a dime a dozen) We'll invite Country John, he is a member on my other regional site where I discuss politics, Stocks, and pussy.

But, first you much get over that attitute; I only fuck nice *****s!

[Rubber Nursey]

pokey,
i don't mind you rocking the boat. it's the callous references to the character of prostitutes - when you're talking to one - that gets my back up. it wouldn't hurt to show me the same level of respect that you show most of the male members of this forum. and i wasn't attacking yogesh. i got angry with him for sending me what i thought was a rather rude private message, but i can understand why he did it as his posts are appearing so long after he writes them. i do not agree with yogesh on many, many points, but on the whole he has put his opinion forward in a polite and tactful manner, which i appreciate.

civ2000,
"i have gone from a respected health care worker in both the hospital and drug treatment environments and had a drug addiction problem myself which landed me in prison for several years. i have not only experienced prostitution as a customer, but as a health care provider, counselor, and fellow junkie shooting up with them in drug houses".

i, too, have worked in counselling and sexual health, but in a sex worker specific organisation. i was also a sex worker myself for a number of years, as well as working as a receptionist and filling in as acting manager at a couple of brothels.

with all due respect, as a drug counsellor and a health worker in a hospital setting, the sex workers that came to you would have had very different problems to the sex workers that came to me. i mentioned a while back a report that came out about drug use amongst sex workers in perth, that stated that "all of our clients who identify as sex workers are regular users of illicit drugs". this quote was jumped on by the media and was printed as "results of a recent study...". what they failed to mention was who actually carried out this 'study'. a drug rehabilitation agency! of course all their sex working clients were regulars users...if they didn't have a drug problem, they wouldn't have come to the centre in the first place!

my organisation employed a peer-based model and most of us worked, or had worked, in the industry ourselves. our main function was to educate workers about sexual health, but it's the other things that we did that brought sex workers to us. we took complaints about poor working conditions, we helped them apply for workers compensation, we took 'ugly mug' reports (reports of violent clients that are circulated throughout the local industry for their protection), we helped with council, real estate and family court disputes and we fought hard and loud for the rights of sex workers during a long and highly publicised law reform debate. sex workers - whether they were private, brothel, street workers or 'illegal aliens' - trusted us wholeheartedly and were heavily involved with our agency.

what i'm trying to say is that many of the workers you had dealings with may have only come to you because they were in trouble. many of the sex workers that i had dealings with were self-empowered women (and men) who were there to improve their working conditions, have their sti tests done, learn how to pay their taxes, report someone who had hurt them, or just stand up for themselves and fight for their rights alongside us. i am not for a minute saying that this is the norm in other countries - in fact, australia is reknown for having one of the cleanest and most professional sex industries in the world and i know that we are luckier than a lot of other workers.

like joe said, there is also a huge difference in the conditions, health and motivation of street workers compared to brothel or private workers. experiences are also impacted heavily by, as you mention, the legal situation in each particular country. and for the record, i agree emphatically with your views on legalisation. i spent over two years of my life fighting against legalisation in my state, for the exact reasons that you mention in your post. decriminalisation and self-regulation are the only ways to improve working conditions for sex workers.

[Rubber Nursey]

PS. (sorry, I know I've babbled on long enough already).

I am not trying to 'glamorise' prostitution. No, I would not promote sex work is a 'desirable' job, just as I would not promote being a cleaner, a garbage collector or a kitchenhand at Macdonalds as 'desirable'. They are not the sort of jobs that most people aspire to having and are probably not the sort of careers that a parent would encourage their children to aspire to either, but many people work in those jobs and are perfectly happy where they are. That is my view on sex work. It is a job and should be treated as such. Not a glamorous job - not a horrible job. But a job.

Associating prostitution with school children ("do we want our children to do their work experience in a brothel?") is a tool usually used by the media and anti-prostitution activists - school children = child prostitutes = the industry should never be legalised because they will start kidnapping our children and turning them into sex slaves. Sex work is an 'adults only' occupation and as such, nobody under 18 would be allowed on the premises for work experience or any other reason, period.

Sex is a deeply personal subject and all of us see and experience sex and sexuality in different ways. Large numbers of people around the world see sex as 'sacred' or only for marriage or only for love. Others even find sex itself abhorrent! For that reason, sex work will NEVER be an occupation that your Average Joe (or Jane as the case may be) would normally choose to work in. I don't want to promote prostitution or encourage others into the industry - I want to improve conditions for people who are ALREADY in the industry.

[Travis Bickle 2]

RN said: "Sex work is an 'adults only' occupation and as such, nobody under 18 would be allowed on the premises for work experience or any other reason, period."

I agree with that completely. When I made the comment about high school counselors mentioning prostitution as an alternative to their students I was being sarcastic and visualizing high school seniors, many of which are eighteen years old in this country.

I can also see that as an addict and working in a drug treatment center that the vast majority of SW's I come in contact with would be drug users. Even my drug affected brain can connect those dots.

But as a customer I've found most of my working girls were users as well and believe me I've been with a lot. I've mostly been with SW's but have also been with escorts, strippers, and brothel gals. Most denied using drugs until they found out I was a user myself and then it was like "let's party". I'd say about 90% had some kind of drug problem.

Now that I've been clean about 10 years I'm not quite as attuned to the scene as I used to be.

Interestingly enough however, I find that recently (past 4 or 5 years or so) that there are more and more SW's working who are doing so soley for the money. They are generally quite young (18 to 23), highly mobile, have cell phones, and drive. They roll into town, make a bunch of money, and as soon as the cops start to crack down they leave and go somewhere else.

This is a trend I'm seeing more and more and read quite a bit about in the WSG. It seems that they even out number the drug users a lot of days. But almost all are working for pimps. I was a little surprised that you didn't list pimps as part of your pecking order of filth. Some guy who beats up a SW because she only brought in $400 definately qualifies as scum in my book.

Civ2000

[Joe Zop]

Pokey, good to see your psychoanalytic powers are at the same level as the rest of your stuff. Bzzzt! Try again! And I most certainly never said I only fuck nice *****s -- that wouldn't be much fun. I said I only fuck those are in the game by choice.

You're welcome to your 18-year-olds. As I've stated here and elsewhere with boring consistency, I'm really not into those younger than their mid-twenties or so, though I do of course make exceptions at times.

And you obviously see it differently, but I don't see saying to Yogesh that he's overgeneralizing is "attacking" him.

Civ2000, I'll be interested to hear about the results of the SF AMP study -- I know there was one done in the past that looked at condom usage in them, which found (if I recall correctly, as it's been a year or so since I read it) that most workers were pretty diligent about using them when working but less so when with their significant others.

Certainly there are sex workers who slide up and down the rungs from call girl to streetwalker, and just as certainly there are all types who shoot up. But to my knowledge, most of the statistical information available which charts HIV/AIDS incidence is from streetwalkers, who are clearly at the highest risks in all ways and who are also the most likely to be IV drug users. My point was simply that it's tough to extrapolate from that data to make any solid statements about others.

And yes there are serial killers who target streetwalkers in the Seattle area and elsewhere. Jack the Ripper onward did so. Serial killers have also targeted nurses, servants, college students and basically anyone they feel is weaker than themselves (with women being the most common victims overall.) But I confess I'm kind of baffled by this being brought up -- are you saying, well, beware being a prostitute because you might be the target of the evil or insane?

I don't think anyone's arguing that we should all want our kids to grow up to be streetwalkers -- I think the point is that if someone chooses to go into sex work, they should be afforded at least somewhat the degree of protection and control that any other kind of worker gets.

[Rubber Nursey]

"I was a little surprised that you didn't list pimps as part of your pecking order of filth. Some guy who beats up a SW because she only brought in $400 definately qualifies as scum in my book".

Absolutely -- pimps are right up there with trafficking syndicates as far as I'm concerned. I rarely think to mention pimps because (contrary to the odd ill-informed media report!) pimps don't really exist in Australia. Of course there are probably guys here and there who take advantage of our street workers, but pimping is not traditionally a part of our sex industry. I realise that they are commonplace in many other countries though, and I find the entire concept abhorrent.

Sorry I jumped on you about prostitution career day in schools. I've heard that comment so many times from people who really BELIEVE it, that I automatically figured you did too.

And congrats on being clean for 10 years! That's an amazing accomplishment. As someone who can't even manage to give up cigarettes, I have nothing but admiration for people like yourself who have managed to kick such an overwhelming addiction. :)

[Joe Zop]

"Even my drug affected brain can connect those dots."

Civ -- there should be more folks with your kind of affect, then, as your posts have always seemed lucid and precise to me, even if I at times disagree.

[Phil #1]

I've been into the Tijuana red zone scene with SWs and bar girls. And I'm wondering if it's true that most prostitutes in third world countries, more specifically Mexico, hate customers because they feel we are exploiting them so they can feed their families. I hope this is not true for most of the girls but if it is I'll try to take it as best I can. It might affect me going down to TJ for their services.

I've been with several dozen of them since May 2003. Always for sex in usual ways like normal positions, no fetishes, and only one time with two girls at once which was in a massage parlor in Tijuana. I post over in the Tijuana forum and finally applied for senior memebership, I should be getting approved in a couple weeks or so.

Other places I've been a customer is Germany, with several European girls mostly German back when I was in the US army in the 70's. I didn't see many Asian girls working in the red light zones there, maybe because they came there more in the 80's and after. So I wonder if even the prostitutes in an affluent country like Germany feel that way about customers in general. I've also had a few working girls in Amsterdam. Also a few in southern CA.

As for the Mexican prostitutes most of the time the experiences for me most of the time ok to good and sometimes great. The girls seem clean and many of the rooms are decent, having been remodeled within the last 2 or 3 years. The girls behave calmly and normally, not like they are on drugs. Maybe like another poster said more non drug users are working as SWs. And it was mentioned before that the working conditions vary greatly among prostitutes. Maybe those conditions or whatever are the key towards determining how many prostitutes despise the customer for perceived exploitation. I know some anti prostitution people here will laugh at the "perceived" exploitation I just mentioned and just assume tell me the exploitation is fact and that most mongers are guilty of it at least in third world countries, not that I agree with it. Mongers meaning customers for the new people here.

[Rubber Nursey]

ok, i think i'm ready to step back into the ring again. :)

a few posts ago, civ2000 said this: "i really can't really speak for the rest of you but if my daughter wanted to be a prostitute i'd feel really bad about her decision".

obviously, i've heard this a million times. even a brothel owner in my city said it during the law reform debate! but just for a moment, i'd like you guys to think about why you'd hate your daughter to be a sex worker.

is it because she'd be having lots of sex with strangers? perhaps partly...but every father has to deal with the thought of their daughter having sex and lets face it, girls who aren't hookers have a hell of a lot of sex with strangers these days.

so if we ignore the sex...what are the things that make prostitution such a terrible choice for your daughter? let's say she says she's going to be a hooker, whether you like it or not - end of discussion - what would you be afraid of most? and more importantly...what would you need to see happen before you could feel even slightly comfortable with her decision?

if she were my daughter, this is what i would want...
* a clean, legal (decriminalised, actually) brothel that is monitored by all the appropriate agencies like any other business,
* satisfactory employment conditions eg. good rate of pay, superannuation, workers comp cover, etc
* free, anonymous std testing by non-judgemental health professionals, to make it as easy as possible for her to look after her health,
* equal protection under the law when it comes to robbery, [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), etc, (and an acceptable police response).
* and most importantly, a society that respects her right to choose how to use her own body and doesn't treat her like a second class citizen - a media that doesn't constantly portray negative and cruel stereotypes that make her heart ache and her self-esteem plummet - and a sex worker organisation that she can go to to learn how to do her job professionally and safely, with sex worker staff that she can offload all her problems to, so that they don't build up in chest until she chokes (or takes drugs, or has a breakdown, or commits suicide).

and that's why i fight so hard for the rights of sex workers. because every single hooker around the world is somebody's daughter and if your daughter really did get a job as a hooker ...i can guarantee you'd appreciate having someone like me working to keep her safe.

[Pokey]

RN, I'm glad you want to step back into the ring, because when you promote prostitution for daughters; I want to use my bare knuckles on you. You see I do have a daughter, and I want to protect her from people like you. I thought you were a good person who tries help down and out ex hookers feel better about themselves and get out of the business. Instead I think you're are recuiter, as I see you worked as a pimp(mamasum in a MP)
Yes, I agree with you, that pimps are the scum of the earth, making women work out of fear of being hit, or worst rejection of their false love. ( here I was accusing JZ or being the fox in a henhouse, when it was you all along)

You know it scares me when my daughter admires strippers, and the money they make. It scares me because I worked briefly with bad kids who got kicked out of school for drugs, fighting or other problems. It seems to me just about every other young bad pretty girls wants to be a stripper when they turn 18, some of them even worked the street selling themselves. Even at a young age, they love the power over men and the money.

Sometimes I feel my daughter too might end up in that life, maybe God's way of punishing me for fucking young hookers.

The reason why I would fear such a thing is because Prostitution is such a dirty filthy business. You RN want to put a napkin on a piece of shit, and say- look the shit is clean, but just peal the napkin away and you still have shit, and it smells too.

I was just reading WSG's old files regarding Australia, and one of the comments said, the girls can't refuse service to men they don't want to have sex with. I don't know if this is still true, but somewhere in the world, you know it's true.

It will never be safe, especially if the girls try to cheat you. God, have mercy on their soul, if I catch them taking money from my pants, or worst not giving me a BJ after promising me one.

Rules mean very little, if I like the girl and she is fairly young and new to the business; I request no condom sex, and I'll offer more money till she agrees. I always demand a BBJ too. I just hate to have a BJ with a condom; why bother? I demand good sex service, so if I get sex by the numbers or a loose pussy, you better believe I'll complain to the Mamasum, you know the sex worker will get their ass kicked, or get less customers.( I make friends with the Mamasums, and tip her extra, so I demand and get good service)

I agree with you and JZ who respect Civ200 for sharing his story with us. I myself don't use drugs, as my only vice is addiction to pussy. I really don't consider it a problem, but it hurt my family, so therefore I'm not proud of it. I would like to stop but I can't, but I seem to have it under control, where I only need services of a pro every 3 or 4 weeks.

I haven't had a chance to read though you past posts, but I know you must have abused drugs before. Almost all prostitutes have in the past, over the shame of the profession and fucked up life.

I know I could be wrong, as you could be the "Happy ex Hooker" just like JZ, who ignores dives like I visit in TJ, and only fucks high class educated successful *****s not only in Thailand, India( Kuma sutra) but New York and LA. What a bunch of bullshit. I did those ripoff escort services too, nothing but a over priced ripoff.

JZ, would have us believe he has no demons. The next thing he'll tell us is he found Atlantis.

[Your Guest]

Dear Pokey,

You are not fair, it is a hypothetical scenario that RN is painting, it is not personal and face the truth every person is somebody's son or daughter. So if you don't want your daughter into it, you should wish there was nobody's daughter doing it.

Dear Rn,

If I understand your feelings right you want the world to be a fari and safe place for every body's daughter' and hopefully sons. Bravo!

But let us get it straight RN, NOBODY in the world man or woman, in his right mind, holds his/her baby in his arms and thinks yes I am going to bring her up as the world's biggest *****. Wake up to it RN. No number of juggling of words and flashing of logic can turn a wrong into a right.

My body, my choice, is fine to me but what a lousy choice.

Yogesh.

[Travis Bickle 2]

rn, just from looking at your list of things a sex worker should receive makes me not want my daughter in the business.

a) the fact you feel she needs free and anonymous std testing must mean you feel she is at a higher risk of std's. not something i want for my daughter. sure, even if she is not a pro she may have lots of sex but just how many girls have sex with 5 to 10 guys a day week in and week out?

b) equal protection and police response for [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), robbery, etc. again a prostitute is at much higher risk for all of these. and again not something i would wish on my worst enemy -- let alone my daugher.

c) and a sex worker staff she can unload to so she doesn't commit suicide, abuse drugs, etc. even with the best counseling there is a much higher than average risk she will abuse drugs and commit suicide.

lastly, you can't really change the values of a society. it is a noble goal but difficult to attain. prostitutes have always been looked upon with disdain and scorn and not much will change that. it is in particular perpetrated upon prostitutes by their own gender.

so i ask you: would you really want your daughter in a profession where she must get regularly tested for deadly diseases; gets routinely offered more money to play russian roulette with her health; is at a much higher risk to abuse drugs, commit suicide, get raped, beat up, early mortality, etc; and is generally scorned by society?

so once again: i really can't really speak for the rest of you but if my daughter wanted to be a prostitute i'd feel really bad about her decision.

civ2000

[Rock Dog]

Pokey,

Ease up there guy. Your postings are starting to take on a harsh quality. We're kind of lucky to have RN's unique viewpoint. I personally feel like I've learned something from reading her posts that I didn't know before.

You state that "Prostitution is such a dirty filthy business", and yet you yourself are an integral part of that business. It seems kind of self-serving that you can make a distinction between them and yourself.

You made another statement that's it's not safe. Then you go on and give a hint that you're the kind of customer that could make it that way, especially if the girl did something to upset you.

I get this feeling from your post that you really enjoy exerting control over these girls while you are with them. It seems like you have had some bad experiences with women in your life. It also seems like you've got a bad attitude towards women in general.

Sure, those girls fuck for money. Sure, they may be looked down on by others. They might even be in a position where we can do what we want and get away with it. But that doesn't mean we have to make things worse for them.

Try resonate a little harmony for a change.

Rock

[Dickhead]

pokey is obviously fucked up but civ 2000 is less obviously fucked up. the former is beyond redemption and does not appear to have been born with a lot of gray matter with which to work.

the latter must now ask himself, given his latest post, why he could continue to monger. he will now feel my wrath.

hello everyone needs access to free and anonymous std testing! see, americans are taught to think that free health care is a bad thing when in fact it is an investment in the economic infrastructure; sick people can't work.

also you have a chicken and egg type of problem, dude. sex workers have a higher risk of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and robbery because they are being marginalized. your statement that it is impossible to change a society's values is absurd. i will grant you that values change slowly over time but they are not glacial in nature. i'd argue that modern communication and tranportation systems make the pace of change more rapid. look at tattoos and body art as examples (i admit that i hate all that shit). 20 years ago only guys who had been in the military or prison had tattoos. now it is main stream.

tonight i paid a woman from a traditionally less fortunate country than argentina to have sex with me. she is a bright young woman trying to make a better life for herself. i have been with her a few times now. she said that she hid her profession from her family because the repercussions would be severe but also said that she liked what she did and thought she was good at it (she is) and that she thought it was her family's problem and not hers that they could not accept what she did. amazingly perhaps, she blamed organized religion in general and the catholic church in particular for this state of affairs.

[Joe Zop]

would i want a daughter to be a prostitute? certainly not as thngs stand now -- it's all well and good to imagine a future where sex workers are all treated well and seen as being in a solid and respected profession, but the bottom line is that's not reality at this point. this thread provides ample evidence that far too many of even those who are closest to the industry and use it regularly still have very low opinions of sex workers.

and pokey, it's not some kind of either/or equation -- i ignore brothels in thailand where women are brought in as virtual slaves and places where they're ****d or under duress and can still easily frequent average places where women are in the business knowingly and by choice. my last trip i spent the majority of my time in chiang mai with one worker, who was working to pay her way through school and to provide for her daughter. she was working at a specific go-go where she could leave the job anytime she wanted. while the sex was marvelous, so was the fact she could carry on a decent conversation in between fucks. let's see -- i paid her about $25 a day and that was for all-nighters. i pay no more than the average monger when in thailand, oz, kenya, canada, wherever. tj doesn't interest me, as it's far enough away from where i live that i can make other choices for the same general level of travel and i can avoid the issues you so eloquently portray. canada's about the same distance to me that tj is to you, and it's not hard to find registered sex workers who are in the game by choice. streetwalkers don't interest me as the risk factors are too high in all regards.

and to make it perfectly clear, though i thought i did -- i completely avoided p4p in india because i didn't have time to check out the specifics of the situations to my satisfaction, so i couldn't know for sure what i was getting into.

i just look at all this as choices made in shopping: i don't happen to shop at walmart, for example, as i don't like the corporate philosophy or how the profits are used in the political arena. others are certainly free and welcome to shop there and obviously do -- i just spend my money elsewhere to favor the kinds of things i wish to support or just in neutral situations. why should i have my money (mongering or regular) go to support systems i dislike?

and i never said i didn't have demons -- mine just happen to involve screwing women, not screwing them over.

[Dickhead]

Also in this whole "Morality of Prostitution" deal we need to think about jealousy. Yes, jealousy. What a rotten and shitty trip that is. I am not by nature a jealous person and the one time I felt it strongly I almost puked.

Now in this whole prostitution thing, of course my friends and I have shared many women and they have shared us. The prostitute with whom I had sex tonight had also had sex with 3 of the other 4 guys at the dinner table. That did not bother me at all. She was bothered but I told her that a) I knew and b) I didn't give a shit. What I did not say, but would say if she pressed me, is that all three had sex with her based on my recommendation.

I think it is a sharing, caring kind of thing and should be a lot more widespread. By that I mean what I did hooking them up with her but moreover I mean society as a whole needs to beome more cooperative and accommodating and less jealous and consumeristic.

[Travis Bickle 2]

Dickhead, Thanks, I think. It pleases me to no end that I'm less obviously fucked up than Pokey. LOL. But fucked up nonetheless.

I didn't say I was against free and anonymous STD testing. In fact here in Seattle we have about 20 locations where I can get it free of charge anytime I want. I would have thought Australia was even better. We actually have a van that cruises the strolls and gay bath houses offering the twenty minute HIV test to anyone who wants it free of charge, of course.

Fact is even though millions of Americans are without health insurance, we have tons of free clinics where when I was unemployed I could walk in and out without an appointment and get free prescription drugs. Now that I have insurance to help pay I get buried by deductibles.

The fact is we have thousands of Canadians (who get free health care) cross the border each day because in the U. S. you can actually see a doctor on almost zero notice and the health care is better.

For emergency care you can walk into any hospital and they are required to treat you. I've never had to pay a dime of my past hospital bills.

Maybe you can change a societies values however the views on prostitution haven't really changed in the last 2000 years since Mary Magdelene was on the stroll. But it is possible.

Civ2000

[Snake27]

There is a fascinating editorial in The Economist (magazine) about Prostitition, Sept 2, entitled "Sex is Their Business"

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3151258

[Rubber Nursey]

dickhead: yay! so glad you're back. missed you baby. ;)

civ2000: yes, you are considerably less fucked up than pokey, and for that i am grateful. i know you don't agree with most of what i say, but i do appreciate the fact that you've put your opinion across without trying to make me feel like an uneducated piece of shite.

"the fact you feel she needs free and anonymous std testing must mean you feel she is at a higher risk of std's".
of course sex workers are at a higher risk of stds, because they have more sex partners than average. but here (and in some other places, but i'll just use here as an example), the std rate among sex workers is considerably lower than that of the general community. they know how to protect themselves. and why wouldn't they - it's part of their job to know about sexual health and safe sex! one of the major differences here of course, is the existence of peer-based sex worker agencies that are funded by the government, unlike other countries which try to do the same work through small prostitute collectives and the like.

and yes, we do have free health care here. what i was getting at was a) sex workers in other countries need to be afforded the same luxury and b) when sex work is legalised it usually brings with it mandatory testing, which always seems to lead to sex workers having to pay for their testing (like in the nevada brothels where it can cost the girls up to $75 a week). that can only be detrimental to sex worker health.

"even with the best counseling there is a much higher than average risk she will abuse drugs and commit suicide".
again, that's not the case here. i haven't seen anything to suggest that oz sex workers are at greater risk of suicide, and numerous studies have shown that drug use in the oz industry is no greater than that in the general community. (although, we do smoke more cigarettes). and again, i firmly believe that is because of the support systems we have in place for sex workers, as well as most of our social services adopting a 'harm reduction' policy, rather than a 'behaviour modification' or 'just say no' policy.

as for nothing changing for sex workers as far as community opinion goes - that's certainly not the case here. in the past few years we have seen sex workers receiving workers compensation, suing brothel owners for unfair dismissal and reporting unsafe/unsanitary working conditions. a number of men have been convicted of [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) or assaulting street workers. family courts have decided that being a sex worker does not make you an unfit mother. sex worker activists are interviewed by the media and consulted by governments. sex workers like me are presenting at things like community forums, universities and national and international conferences. a sex worker specific module (that i presented myself a few times) is a compulsory part of practical training for wa doctors before they leave med school. the media is increasingly using the term 'sex worker' instead of 'prostitute', at our request. these are just examples - there have been many more positive changes, including sex workers attending rallies and writing submissions to government to demand better working conditions.

sex workers would never have done any of that if it hadn't been for sex worker activists slowly plodding away behind the scenes, informing the community about the realities of the industry and giving some self respect and dignity back to sex workers. if it can happen here, it can be done...everywhere.

in answer to your question - i don't have a daughter (i have two sons) but if i did and she came to me and said that she had made an educated, uncoerced, adult decision to be a sex worker - then i would support her all the way, like i would any decision that my children make. i would make sure she was working in a safe environment, that she was educated about the health and security risks and that she understood her rights as a worker...which are the exact same things i would be concerned about for any job.

if, on the other hand, my daughter had been forced to work against her will, kidnapped, coerced by a pimp, whatever ...i would pull her straight out of the situation, find out what led her down that path and do my best to get help for her and tear out her exploiter's throat with my bare hands.

[Rubber Nursey]

Pokey - "Even at a young age, they love the power over men and the money".

Hahahahaha! And now we know why you hate me so much.

(PS. I've made it quite clear over the years that I have NEVER been involved with drugs. I smoke cigarettes, I enjoy a drink here and there and I smoked some pot when I was a teenager. That's the total extent of my drug using experience).

[Pokey]

RN, I don't hate you, It's just my way of making a point. I would not really hit you physically, but will only with my words in this forum. I will try to use the word 'Sex worker" when talking to you, but I don't think they use that word in the U.S. when discussing prostitutes.

I just think you're absurd to think legalization could work in the US with workers rights and everything you talk about. I really don't complain to the Mamasum if the sex worker has a loose pussy, but lets face it, there are crazy people out there like the darkside of me. My daughter has a job in the mall now, first job, she doesn't know handle rude customers, imagine if she worked as a sex worker( God forbid, and a crazy monger said, I'm not wearing a condom.)

I notice all you're authors were Liberatrians, and I think the only reason they are is because they tolerate sex workers. I don't know about the rest of the world but Liberatrians only get about 3% of the vote. RN, it might interest you to note I'm a liberal Democrat, way to the left of you're authors. I'm not religious at all, but have read the bible, and I have people praying for me everyday. I think it's working. I also think JZ, should watch the "Passion of Christ" it will help him deal with his demons.

If you can't convince me to legalize sex workers, how are you going to convince conservatives around the world to you're way of thinking. Another thing It's really not in the best interest of the Monger to have sex workers legal, except from the stand point of not being busted.

JZ, you insulted me when you said, I go dives in Mexico looking for abused girls, or something like that. I'm sure Mexico is not as nice as some places in Thailand, or Canada, but it's very very close to me, and the place has charm, and the girls I go with, sometimes a long time or a short time, are as beautiful as any in Thailand. However, most girls will not take it in the ass, as readily as they do In Thailand, maybe that's what you like to do there, or get it done to you, have you read "Strap on Dildo"? ( people who read RN author's books like to read that book too)

You really insulted me when you said, I was trying to be like Dickhead. I like Dickhead's wit and humor, but I would never like to be like him. That's my worst fear to become like Dickhead.

Dickhead, I knew it was only a matter of time that you would rear you're ulgy head in this forum. Just like flies to shit, I knew you would come. My forum seach doesn't work now for some reason, but in the past I reviewed a few of both you and JZ's postings. I think you said, you were addicted to sex workers, and it seems like you are living the life going from one country to another looking for foreign pussy. I don't know if you're a criminal or just a sick pervert, but your life must be great and fucked up at the same time.

I'm just so glad I have a family that keeps me from being completely fucked-up like Dickhead, always looking for cheap pussy. But, when it's dark and the full moon is out; I can compete with Dickhead fucking, sharing, and sticking my dick in as many pussy's as he can.( viagra is good)

Yes, I'm fucked up, and proud of it, just like most of the fuck-up people on this forum. Why else would you be here?

[Rubber Nursey]

Call me crazy, but that seemed almost friendly. Thank you Pokey - I do appreciate it.

I know very little about American politics - I have no idea what a Libertarian or a Liberal Democrat is or what, if any, the difference is between them. I'm not a big fan of politicians, regardless of their policies or affiliations, and although I've been very active in the political arena, I don't have a preference for any of our political parties. When I have to vote, I vote waaaaay left, but the rest of the time I just try to ignore the lot of them.

Just to clarify - again - I DO NOT, IN ANY WAY support the legalisation of sex work. I am absolutely, positively, vehemently OPPOSED to legalisation. It's bad for sex workers, bad for brothel owners, bad for clients and because legalisation tends to increase street work/increase risk of disease/increase 'underworld' involvement/etc - it's bad for the general community as well.

As for me not being able to convince you to agree with my position - I'm sorry, but that's largely because a couple of you guys are blatantly refusing to read what I've actually written! I'm not trying to glamorise prostitution, encourage anyone to enter it, legalise it, excuse the atrocities that occur in it, or any of the other things I've been accused of lately. I am trying to CHANGE it. I am trying to PROTECT the women (and men) who work in it. And I am trying to show you - by way of the Australian example - that sex work CAN be clean and safe, and that every sex worker around the world deserves to work under those same conditions. Our industry is not perfect and our laws are crap - there's still a lot of work to be done. But we've got it better than so many other girls out there.

Feel free to disagree with me - that's what a discussion is all about. But please don't pick fights with me about things I didn't even say. I don't want to encourage your daughter, or anyone else's, to be a hooker - you must know that. But if she did (God forbid) make that decision, surely you would want her to be in the safest environment possible??

[Rubber Nursey]

PS. To all the guys who said that they wouldn't want their daughter to be a sex worker --- can someone please explain to me why it's perfectly ok for you to fuck someone else's daughter???

(And no, I'm not trying to be antagonistic - I'm genuinely asking)

[Your Guest]

RN,

I have sent a PM to you earlier, this forum simply isn't a level playing field, your (Senior Members') posts appear immediately, ours' take ages to see the light of the day.

Your logic is SO VERY TWISTED, I sincerely believe that you have a real problem. You want CSWs' to work in a safe, clean, secure and free environment whic should be ILLEGAL!

HOW THE HELL IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN UNLESS CSAS (COMMERCIAL SEX ACTIVITIES) are legalised, regulated, taxed, subject to controls and rules, etc. ?

Your reasoningis so very sick it makes me puke.

Yogesh

[James D 2004]

RN

I can take that challenge with a few of my friends, working girls', stories. But now I'm sitting in the loo and after that I have some self made bedside movies from last night to edit.

Later,
JD