The Morality of Prostitution

[Travis Bickle 2]

RN, You said:


"PS. To all the guys who said that they wouldn't want their daughter to be a sex worker --- can someone please explain to me why it's perfectly ok for you to fuck someone else's daughter???"

Touche!

You do have a knack for asking the question that needs to be asked, don't you? I was wondering when someone was going to ask that question.

The answer is that I never said it was okay to fuck someone else's daughter. You may have thought it was implicitly implied because I patronize sex workers but everytime I pick up a SW I think about it. Especially when I pick up the young one's (18 to 25 or so) I think about some parent or grandparent broken-hearted and worried to death that their child is out working the streets and getting into strange men's cars.

And I do feel sorry and grieve for them. I also grieve for the young SW's lost youth, many of whom have been working years before they're old enough for me to pick up.

I may engage in self-delusion by telling myself it's different with me because I always treat them with the utmost respect and genuinely care for them. I always try to be fair in my pricing and give them extra if I can. I think some of them even like me (well as much as you can like someone in this line of work). I do absolutely love and respect women and this goes double for SW's. It hard work and I certainly wouldn't want to do it.

Also, since I consider myself a sex addict, in a lot of ways I have lost control over my behavior. I know that's not really an excuse and that I need to accept responsiblity for my behavior and move on. Maybe tomorrow.

Unfortunately some of these gals really don't have parents. Dad's an abusive alcoholic, mom's on drugs, broken home, poverty, etc. Some of these gals never had a chance in life. I see that all the time. In my early mongering days I actually tried to help some of these gals out. I'd let them kick dope at my home, drive them around, take them to treatment, etc., but found that no one can get better unless they really want to. I really can't think of any that made it out, of course I lost contact with most of them.

So, there's your answer. Sorry for being so verbose.

Civ2000

[Pokey]

RN says:
"PS. To all the guys who said that they wouldn't want their daughter to be a sex worker --- can someone please explain to me why it's perfectly ok for you to fuck someone else's daughter???"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gee, RN if you have to ask such a stupid question as that, then you're not as smart as I thought you were. Haven't you heard about the scorpion story who asked the frog to carry him across a body of water. The scorpion in the end of the story stings the frog, and when the frog asked the scorpion why he stung him, meaning sure death to both of them, the scorpion said, because "it's my nature."

It's the same thing with mongers; it's in our nature to fuck sex workers for a variety of reasons. We don't ask or think about if it's someones daughter, we only want to get our rocks off. We do it because we are losers, addicted to sex, bored, love variety, have special needs wifey won't do, wants to have a discussions like JZ, fucked-up like me, etc etc.

RN, if my daughter wanted to become a sex worker, she would no longer be my daughter. I would have to kick her out of the house, it would be too painful for me to stand by and watch her destroy her life. Besides, she would no longer be my daughter, she will have a new father, and it's not the father the movie "Passion of the Christ" is about either.

[The Virgin Terr]

Pokey, your hypocrisy is astounding, but then, many of the contributors to this forum have a love/hate relationship with mongering. From your self-description as a monger, u sound like the type who's hard on sex workers, demanding unprotected sex, and potentially abusive if u feel u were somehow cheated by one. knowing that about yourself, i can see why u think prostitution is a horrible deal for female sex workers.

knowing i'll be attacked for it, i think sex worker rights activists should not only defend legal rights, they should also not be afraid to endorse positive reasons for participation, such as the ability to make alot of money in short time periods, getting both physical pleasure and psychological satisfaction from participation in a business where pleasure comes naturally and clients make u feel good for giving them so much pleasure and satisfaction, as well as the opportunity to meet many interesting people who share intimate knowledge about their lives. i wouldn't have any trouble at all recommending working at a reputable agency to a girlfriend or daughter who has a sex-positive outlook. i just wouldn't like it if it meant she had to deal with Pokey-like clients, unless she was in a situation where she felt absolutely free to refuse such customers ahead of time.

RN, i have another question for u, or a couple. what percentage of your clients do u think respect your choice to be a sexworker, and would respect their own daughter's choice to follow in your footsteps? also, what percentage of your clients prefer to make an effort or express concern that your shared experience is mutually enjoyable? personally, that's the kind of experience i seek as a customer. i think that's the way prostitution should work. i see absolutely no reason why prostitutional encounters can't be as mutually respectful as any other client/service-provider relationship.

[Joe Zop]

RN, the whole "someone else's daughter" question seems strange to me in any event, really. It's like asking whether you'd "like" your son to be gay -- no, of course not, as he'd generally have to go through a fair amount of difficulty as things now stand. (I wouldn't "want" him to be short, or fat, etc., either.) If he was, well, then that's that, but it's hardly something I'd "aspire to" for him.

I wouldn't want my daughter to be a taxi-driver, either, as I'd have other ambitions for her, but that doesn't mean either that I should feel bad for using a taxi or that she should pay any attention to what I want. Few parents would wish a daughter to be in a profession that's societally disrespected, but frankly I don't happen to disrespect sex workers, so I don't see the problem with patronizing them.

Whether or not I aspire for my daughter to get into anal sex has utterly no bearing on what I'd want or what my partner might prefer. My aspirations and a daughter's choices are separate issues.


Pokey -- I've seen "Passion." IMHO it's just a slasher film with a holier-than-thou plotline.

"JZ, you insulted me when you said, I go dives in Mexico looking for abused girls, or something like that"

I said absolutely nothing of the sort. I said that I went to Canada because it was as close to me as TJ was to you, and that I'd go somewhere else if I was going to travel that far. I also said I don't want to frequent places where I feel abuses may take place. Your choices are your choices -- as mine are mine.

I also said nothing whatsoever about the beauty or willingness of women in any particular place or another -- to my mind that's mostly baloney anyway, as I've seen beautiful women every place I've ever travelled. I've most certainly nothing against Latinas, as I've been with several who I thought were simply breathtaking.

And I didn't say you wanted to be like Dickhead -- I said your style lacked his flair and humor. I do, however, apologize utterly to Dickhead for mentioning him in the same post as you.

[Rubber Nursey]

Ok, so on review this morning, that question was written VERY badly (I really have to stop posting so late at night!) It didn't say anything remotely like what I was trying to ask. I guess I just wanted to see how you justified your apparent (for want of a more polite word) 'hypocrisy' when it comes to the industry being ok for you to indulge in, but not 'good enough' for someone you love to be a part of. More than that, I was wondering if your answers might suggest that you see sex workers as some 'other' sort of person...someone who has different values, different morals, different skills, etc, to your own daughter.

Civ2000's post, although obviously compassionate and thoughtful, seems to suggest that he does see sex workers as a little 'different' to his daughter, in that they had unstable homelives and perhaps didn't have as many options open to them as he would see his own daughter as having. I sense a bit of guilt or shame in his post (please correct me if I'm wrong!) and he seems to try and offset that by treating the girls with respect and trying to bring some light into their lives. I think that's a beautiful thing, Civ2000, and for the record, I'm not trying to suggest that anyone should feel guilty about P4P or need to justify their behaviour - I'm just trying to get into your heads. :)

Joe's post is all about personal choices and the aspirations of every parent for their children. He doesn't seem to make any distinction between his own daughter and sex workers.

Pokey -- you scare me. Pokey obviously sees sex workers as being VERY different to his daughter...so much so that she couldn't be his daughter and one of THEM, at the same time.

James D -- You're reading this in the loo??? You need to get in touch with Internet Addicts Anonymous, mate...right away!!! :)

[CBGBConnisur]

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[Rock Dog]

Wow!

Time to tiptoe carefully around into what looks like a potential flame war.

I just thought it might be a good idea to give a few of my own thoughts on this whole issue. First, I want to say how I feel about prostitutes and why.

I say God bless them all! They serve a neccessary function in our society and I'm glad for it. They're people just like anyone else and they deserve the same kind of consideration I'd give to anyone else.

It used to be, back when I was in my 20's, that I could meet girls date them and get laid. Then as I got older, I realized it was getting harder and harder to meet the same kind of young attractive women. They all either had kids, were married with kids, or divorced with kids. Or just plain homely, desperate or laden with emotional baggage. It seemed like the "dry spells" were getting longer and more frequent.

So what's a healthy guy with a normal sex-drive to do? Well, when I was well into my thirties, I crossed the line and paid for it for the first time. It was like some kind of great new discovery! I kept thinking "Wow, this is so great I can't believe everyone isn't doing this."

I appreciate the opportunity to have a fuck when and where I want to. It's the greatest thing to be able to eliminate the uncertainty whether or not I'm going to get laid on any given night.

It's nice to be able to sample a variety of women in a short amount of time. It's even nicer to save all the time and effort it takes to persuade a "regular" girl to have sex with me. It's fun to be out on the prowl never knowing exactly how things might go. There's also the thrill you get from doing it with a stranger. As if that wasn't enough, I really enjoy the sense of entitlement I get when I pay for it.

Sometimes, a regular girlfriend has a way of making you feel like she's doing you a favor by letting you fuck her if she's not really in the mood. Prostitutes never come across that way. It's a nice trade. She gets some money and I get reliable access to sex with a variety of partners.

I think it's nice to have someone out there who is willing to do this kind of thing for money. I'd never get violent with one of them, or even try to intimidate one for doing something wrong. I keep a close eye on things and if a girl tries to make a rip-off then I won't have anything to do with her again. Simple.

Try and think of it this way. There's all kinds of prostitutes out there. Women who fuck their boss for a promotion. Women who go out with a guy they wouldn't otherwise, because he makes the bucks. Women who do all kinds of things that they'd never do if it wasn't for them receiving some kind of benefit.

For some reason, we seem to give them a free ride. So why make this arbitrary distinction, just because the girl does sex for cash? They don't make themselves into lowly social outcasts, we do that to them.

Would I want my daughter to become a prostitute? No, and the reason is not because there's something inherently wrong with sex for money. The reason is because I know what kind of guys are out there. Instead of enjoying the sex, these guys seem to get most of their thrills by being assholes towards the girls. Just like a bully, who gets his fun by picking on someone who's weaker.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Rock

[Rubber Nursey]

I just noticed the numbers had changed so I went back through the posts and lo and behold - there were two posts there that I hadn't read before.

One is by Wicked SH. It's a fantastic post - go read it!
The only things I disagree with you about are legalisation and weekly testing (for reasons that I've blabbed on about enough already, I think) and the correlation between women voting and prostitution laws coming in. I do agree wholeheartedly that women are often the worst offenders when it comes to victimising sex workers - however, Western Australian women were given the vote in 1899 and our prostitution laws really only appeared in the 1970's. (This is quite interesting reading http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/whm2003/australia2.html )

The other is by The Virgin Terry. Hi there VT - long time, no see! :)
In it he asks the question: "can getting paid to have sex with someone u wouldn't otherwise have 'casual sex' with affect your psyche so that not only will u engage in sex, but also feel free to enjoy it? In other words, imagine if u can agreeing to have sex with any man who asks for it politely and respectfully, but offers no payment. would this sort of promiscuity be less inherently enjoyable than your professional tricks? Is there a psychological aspect to getting paid for sex which enhances your physical enjoyment?"

Sex work is sex work and sex is sex, Terry. Sex workers don't decide to have sex with you just for the sake of having sex. Yes, they may be attracted to you or dig the sex once it's happening...but they are only offering to have sex with you in the first place, because it's their job. For example, if you pay a brothel girl for sex and you're cute and sweet and great in bed, she'll probably really enjoy having sex with you and may even hope that you come back and see her again sometime. But if you WEREN'T at a brothel - say you were at a pub or something - if you walked up to her and asked her for sex, she would more than likely say no.

Why? Because we have indiscriminate sex at work because it's part of our job description. We have sex outside of work because we're attracted to/turned on by/in love with someone. What you're asking is like saying "My mate the chef enjoys his job, so why won't he come to my place and cook me dinner for nothing?" Or expecting a computer techie to want to fix your computer for you for free, or a hairdresser to want to cut your hair for free, just because they enjoy their jobs.

In the real world - on my own time - money certainly wouldn't make me more likely to want to have sex with someone I wasn't attracted to, nor would it make me enjoy it any more or less.

[Sporadic]

RN:
Sex work is sex work and sex is sex, Terry. Sex workers don't decide to have sex with you just for the sake of having sex. You make a good and obvious point here RN, one appreciated by everyone except the seriously deluded, but (and there always seems to be a "but" ;)) My experiences have lead me to the conclusion that, like any other type of work (and yes, I do appreciate the very personal and intimate nature of sex work) that having a pleasant, non-threatening, nice, courteous customer does make one enjoy one´s job just that little bit more.

I would be curious as to your take on this. In my case, I suppose something approaching 70% of the providers I have dealt with showed me (and I am most certainly not delusional) an excellent attitude and a tiny bit of that often talked of, and seldom seen "milk of human kindness." Of course, this was after we had broken the ice, and the provider had had a bit of time to evaluate my behavior and attitude.

I will go out on a limb here and say that sometimes (call it 30% of the time) a cordial, friendly (yet professional) relationship can happen, or have I been meeting mostly the proverbial H**ker with the heart of gold for the last 25 years?

IMHO good begets good, and being polite works almost all of the time. Comments?

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rubber Nursey]

Hi Sporadic. :)

You won't get any arguments from me. I've said this a million times already, but I'm always happy to say it again - I LOVED working in the industry. I loved the girls, the clothes, the makeup, the dresses, the sex, the money, the freedom...I loved it all. And I loved my clients. I had a number of regulars that I had what I would consider to be 'friendships' with - like you say, it's more of a 'professional' friendship, but a friendship none the less. There were a couple in particular that I would occasionally run into at the races or the casino, and two of my most regular regulars lived just a short distance from my home and would often catch me at my local shopping centre, buying the bread and milk in my tracksuit pants and sneakers! I did go out of my way to avoid seeing clients outside of work (it can put a bit of a dent in the fantasy and it compromised my anonymity) but I trusted my regulars to be discreet - which is telling in itself, because trust is not something people would normally expect to see in a worker/client relationship.

I don't believe you were 'just lucky'. I know for a fact that there's a hell of a lot of us out there who love the job and, dare I say it, love the sex. A little bit of respect and humour and affection usually goes a long way with a working girl and from the tone of your post, I don't think it's any coincidence that you've had such good experiences.

Please don't get the wrong impression about my last post - I certainly wasn't suggesting that hookers are just 'grinning and bearing it' for the money. I was only pointing out, in answer to Terry's question, that in many cases the girl may not have chosen to have sex with you if you had, say, met in a pub. The first client who ever gave me an orgasm (the first of MANY clients to do so) was around 60 years old, at least 5 inches shorter than me, overweight, balding and he wore glasses. Now I'm not really the type to be fixated on looks, but I can assure you I would never have looked at this guy twice in a bar. But MY GOD...he absolutely blew my mind. And to think I would have missed out on that if I hadn't been a hooker!

[Dickhead]

When I was living in the US, I seldom saw the same hooker more than once. A long time ago, when I used to go to the Mustang Ranch in Reno every pay day, I saw the same Thai gal maybe five times but we had no common language.

But now, in Buenos Aires where there is a common language, I often see the same hookers over and over and have developed friendships with several, including a few I don't even fuck any more. I don't know about the "milk of human kindness" but there is definitely a lot more emotional contact. Prostitution seems more moral to me in this context. It is dangerous, though, because I do develop some feelings for some of them and thus I could get my feelings hurt. That is where being a Dickhead comes in handy since I don't have a hell of a lot of feelings to get hurt. Some, yeah, but not much.

[Travis Bickle 2]

CBGB, Thanks for the compliment. To quote Pokey: Yes, I'm fucked up, and proud of it, just like most of the fuck-up people on this forum. Why else would you be here?"

If having a bit of a conscience and sometimes feeling a little bit of shame for my activities makes me a "fucking pig and hypocrite", so be it. I think at times we are all a little ashamed of this hobby. I for one, wouldn't announce in a room full of people I know that my "hobby" is picking up hookers. I wouldn't have any problem talking about my new hobby: rock climbing. Hypocrite perhaps, but I feel we all do things we sometimes don't feel 100% right about.

I feel I must have hit a nerve with you. I've found that people usually get angriest when you hit them with a bit of the truth and your attack proved that to me. To me you are a bitter and frustrated man. Why else make 108 posts bashing American women? To make a few posts on why American women are a drag I can understand, but your almost daily attacks indicate a lonely, unattractive, bitter, insecure person who needs to travel thousands of miles to receive positive attention from the opposite sex. I feel sorry for you.

RN, I don't feel my daughter is any different from sex workers. Obviously coming from divorced parents, a dad who is a recovering addict and picks up prostitutes probably gives her a higher than likely chance of becoming a sex worker herself, but I feel seeing what I've overcome has helped her and she seems to be thriving right now.

I was just commenting on sex workers (particularly SW's) having a rough time given their circumstances a lot of times. That's also why I feel there should be plenty of social programs available to them should they feel the need for help.

Pokey, No matter what my daughter ever did would I no longer consider her my daughter. I have unconditional love for my kids and would always be there for them.

Civ2000

[James D 2004]

rn

i never thought too much about it. but i think it’s a very natural thing to do - bringing the internet into the loo. say i can listen to radio stations half the globe away from my home town. i brought a cheap wireless router to work more in the yard under the perfect californian weather. but i surfed a lot more in the loo than in the garden so far. today i kept watching my own one-day-old music video in there. here is the page where the video link is. scroll down a bit there for the video.
http://www.wsgforum.com/vforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
i will appreciate any comment from you. bear in mind that the video was made in a single angle in a dim motel room.

i think your question isn’t a real question. i don’t want to be a taxi driver but i will take a taxi with no second thought. that comes back to the issue of why i don’t want my daughter to be a prostitute. the job itself generates enough debate. i know some girls, how they started, and the downward spiral, more than enough to make any father not wanting their daughter to become one.

i want to bring out the issue of ‘talent’, which you need to become a successful prostitute. some do but a lot don’t. basically they are in the wrong job struggling everyday. talent could be acquired with age and experience. but a cruel way is practiced by the russian mafia that you can find brief mentions in the russian board. when they get a new girl, i think it’s called the breaking in, or black friday. basically they do all sort of things to the girl, like gang bang, on a single day, hell for the girls. after that, any client, dirty, nasty, rough, sticky, too passionate, is nothing in comparison. so they won’t lose business because the clients are not happy with the girls’ attitude or service.

now case 1, which will elaborate on talent and a few points brought out recently. we don’t have school career counselors for prostitution yet but worse, some schools have a huge old school network. since the whole usa become one local area for cell phones, i too began to notice a lot of ‘street walkers’ from everywhere, going where the money is, until they have a record with the police and have to move somewhere else.

this girl is from mid usa states, who choose to settle in my town last month. she is white, blond, just turned 21, highly out of place for a stereotype sw. she had a couple of friends who came here earlier. they were having a mini high school reunion here. she showed me a couple of her friends who also works.

she’s living in a nice flat in once the safest city (over 100,000 population) in california, if not the usa. she’s moving into a town house, which would be at least 300k. i still couldn’t figure that out. no way she can have a mortgage. but no way she can pay for that outright, but maybe. think about 1k a day, that’s the target she told me. even if a lot less, she could have worked a few years since 18, or even earlier. many sw had to struggle against better looking **** girls because they can’t work as a prostitute anywhere else. she has 4 cars, all with different state licence plates. she’s using two everyday to confuse everybody, le and clients. she never burnt money on cars. all can be impounded by le without sorrow. she has no pimps and no boyfriends. she can live in a small motel room long time with two other girls when she’s traveling.

i have done simple estimates for asian mp girls. base on pocketing $100 per half hour with plenty of rest, popular ones could easily get 300k each year tax free, better than a lot of so so ceos. she got at least that for sex, and being a sw, she could spent a lot less time with clients for a car date. i also think that she prefers topless blow job. that’s faster, less wear and tear, safer, and she can be less picky with clients. with role models like that, it’s better than career counselors.

she can be a high priced escort, and i think she started as that. but she has little ‘talent’. i tracked down her old reviews on the internet, which made me laugh. she and her friends did the same thing. the most memorable one being using two fingers to keep the condom in place while having sex. they also pretend to be willing to take a shower. when they look at the bathroom in the cheap motel, they will complain that the bathroom is too dirty and duck out of it. she also repeated herself every time without remembering it. she wanted me to dim the light so as not to ‘embarrass herself’. she could be very nice, holding hands, going places. but when it comes to sex, if you catch her facial expression, that would be ‘please get it over with asap’.

she makes clients feel that they are dirty and full of disease. that may be true but i think that is an excuse for not showing any passion. she feels awkward showing any emotion, and she feels the same when clients show any passion. no foreplay, just sex, all covered, two extra fingers to keep the cover in place if you allow her.

of course, her internet escort days are short lived. but i think she still advertise on newspapers, and work for rip-off agencies. she’s good at that. she often short changes me in various ways.

being a sw has many advantages for her. she can pick her clients. she can rip people off easier than any other form of work. if she can’t get away with it, she can give you something. after all, she isn’t those no-touch delicate dancers who need drivers to protect them. when she ripped-off enough clients, and her regulars gave up on her, she can move somewhere else. when she has bills to pay, she can lower her price and get any clients she wanted, she’s top of the sw pack. other times she likes to show off her best clients in front of other clients to intensify the competition and up her price; clients who are generous, or have nice cars, or good looking.

i wish she got some talent and work a few clients a day charging some $500 each. she often offers all nighters for me. it’s not the money. what am i to do with her all night? give her a straight sex every half hour? what clients do you expect at 3 am everyday? she carries a blade in her miniature handbag, along with condoms.

interestingly, if the legal status and working conditions of sex workers are improved, a lot of pure rip-off artists in california will be driven out of work. this girl will do poorly working in a safe nice place.

[Rubber Nursey]

lmfao james d!!! oh my god...now i sooooo wish i'd been internet savvy when i split up with my ex-husband. yeah i know, it's a cruel and spiteful and probably very childish thing to do....but my ex was a fair dinkum wanker. my hat is off to you james d! (or my shirt, if you'd prefer).

as to your post, this comment stood out the most for me: "interestingly, if the legal status and working conditions of sex workers are improved, a lot of pure rip-off artists in california will be driven out of work. this girl will do poorly working in a safe nice place".

my opinion? good. women like that bring the rest of us down and i for one am sick of copping the distrust and animosity that those girls are responsible for creating in clients and the community. i don't hold them entirely to blame, of course - if society shuns you, clients abuse you and the police don't protect you, i can't blame them for wanting to get back at the world and take their revenge. but do i want to help create an environment where it's easier for them to get away with it? hell no!

to me, as an ex-worker (but we all know a prostitute is considered a prostitute 'til their dying day, right?) this is not just about improved working conditions and protection for sex workers. the flow on effect from a clean, professional industry would be an improvement in social status and community attitudes. if we can get rid of the thieves and the syndicates and the underworld associations, people may just start seeing us as a regular industry, with regular employees, doing a slightly 'irregular' job. they may never really like us, but at least it would give them less reason to hate us.

and if governments and the police would actually do their bloody jobs, the men who gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) girls in russia would spend the rest of their days in a prison cell, getting a taste of what it's like being somebody's b*tch.

[Rubber Nursey]

More new posts down the bottom...

Yogesh: "Your reasoning is so very sick it makes me puke".
It's not my reasoning - it's your comprehension (or lack thereof) of my posts. For the billionth time, I want sex work DECRIMINALISED, not legalised. If you do not know the difference between decriminalisation and legalisation, you have no place considering yourself any sort of 'activist' for sex workers rights. Legalisation is a DANGEROUS form of social control, with no other motive than filling the public purse and with no consideration, whatsoever, for the rights, safety, or emotional well-being of sex workers.

This is not something I just discuss on an internet discussion board - I've fought for sex workers rights in the newspapers, on the TV, at community forums and on the streets. I've had meetings with politicians and made formal submissions to Government. This issue has been my life's work for the past few years and even though I'm no longer involved in the industry, I continue to fight. I can assure you, I know what the benefits and/or pitfalls of the different legal options are. So if you don't mind, can you PLEASE stop speaking to me like I'm an imbecile.

The Virgin Terry: "what percentage of your clients do u think respect your choice to be a sexworker, and would respect their own daughter's choice to follow in your footsteps?"

Sadly, I'd say only 50%, maybe less, thought I had even MADE a choice. Many were under the assumption that I had been forced into it by circumstance or I had no other skills, or I had been abused as a child or some other stereotypical reason. Some seemed to feel sorry for me. Many told me I was 'too smart' or 'too nice' or 'too honest' to be working in a place like that, and that I could do 'so much better for myself' than working in a brothel. So no, I guess they didn't really respect my choice to be a sex worker. However, that's very different to them respecting me as a person.

Due to the attitudes mentioned above, I don't think any of them would have WANTED their daughter in the industry - however, I'd say a lot of them would probably support their daughter if she DID make that decision. Most were broadminded people with healthy attitudes towards sex.

"also, what percentage of your clients prefer to make an effort or express concern that your shared experience is mutually enjoyable? ... i see absolutely no reason why prostitutional encounters can't be as mutually respectful as any other client/service-provider relationship".

It never ceased to amaze me how many clients wanted to give me pleasure. The overwhelming majority tried their damndest to make me feel good. But treating a sex worker with respect and wanting a mutually satisfying session, aren't necessarily the same thing. Some guys want a sex worker for a totally self-indulgent sex session, where they don't HAVE to worry about the other person. That's totally fine with me - it's their dollar, and truth be known, I quite liked it - but they were just as respectful of my body and my comfort and my boundaries, etc, as the other guys. I totally agree with you, though, that there's no reason why you can't be as respectful to a sex worker as you would, say, your masseuse or your hairdresser.

[Rubber Nursey]

PS. (Another new post I found a few pages back )

Snake27 posted this fabulous article: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3151258

Thanks Snake! :)

[Joe Zop]

"It never ceased to amaze me how many clients wanted to give me pleasure."

Why should that be amazing, just out of curiousity? At least for a pretty fair number of people, (including those who have a hope of doing it again with their non=P4P partners!) sex involves not only seeking your own pleasure but providing it to the other. Given the numerous ways that commercial sex mimics "normal" sex, it seems only logical a lot of men would want you to feel good. After all, that's one of the measuring sticks for sex, not to mention that the idea you're giving pleasure can add to your own.

Or, to put it another way, why should I have to change my normal approach to sex because it's P4P?

[Travis Bickle 2]

Hello All, Is it just me or does it seem this thread is getting a bit vicious as of late? IMHO, the purpose of this thread is to generate a thoughtful, give and take discussion about the morality of prostitution. When attacks are made it seems to thwart this purpose. I can't really see anything useful coming from taking it all too personally.

Also, I can see some not wanting to join our lively discussion for fear of pissing off some of us.

Anyway, some examples:

Yogesh: "Your reasoning is so very sick it makes me puke".

Civ2000 is FUCKING PIG AND HYPOCRITE.

your almost daily attacks indicate a lonely, unattractive, bitter, insecure person

Gee, RN if you have to ask such a stupid question as that, then you're not as smart as I thought you were.

Pokey is obviously fucked up

RN's making comments about the size of Pokey's dick

And on and on.

I included a quote of mine above also. Could we debate without attack? We're beginning to sound as bad as Bush and Kerry. Anyone who disagrees with us is a fucking idiot, hypocritical pig with a small dick.

Civ2000

[Sinanju Master]

Civ, you hit the nuclear detonator on the head. I occasionally lurk in here (after a few enjoyable exchanges with RN prompted me to do so) but the thought of posting an opinion on this board without getting my radiation-proof bunker ready is out of the question. I'm not saying I'm without blame, 'cos I've put forth my fair share of toxic waste, but I've taken a different, more productive route to better facilitate the exchange of opinion.

[Joe Zop]

Well said, Civ2000. I quite agree.

[Your Guest]

Dear Joe,

I have no intentions of cluttering anybodys inbox. I live in a country which has a high population density, and I live in one of the more populus areas. This makes me better qualified than most to be able to appreciate the virtue of privacy.

I however need to reply to your post and so I am using this public place. The only reason that I intruded on your private place was because it takes frustatingly long for a mere mortal as opposed to a Senior Member's post to see the light of the day. I am writing this on the 6th of September, let us see when this appears.

Yes I am offering my opinion. I came here following the route,

Table of Contents > OPINIONS & Editorials > OPINIONS > The Morality of Prostitution (My Capitalisation)

I can safely assume that this place was about OPINIONS on The Morality of Prostitution.

I also believe that my argument is frustating and tiring to you because I contradict your view point.

Yogesh

[Your Guest]

Dear RN,

Written on 6 September 2004

I am not an activist for anybody let alone CSWs, true I do not understand the difference between decriminalisation and legalisation, but I can guess what you inply by that. You want rights no responsibilities, you want to earn tax free money, you want law to protect you as a service provider with no guarantees to the customer,
I am quoting a post here:

"Interestingly, if the legal status and working conditions of sex workers are improved, a lot of pure rip-off artists in California will be driven out of work. This girl will do poorly working in a safe nice place."

RN remember there are no free lunches in the world.

Yogesh

[Cash Works]

RN,

This may or may not post in a timely fashion - I had a couple of posts in other areas that took 5 days to show up, this may be the reason you keep discovering "new" old posts.

Anyway, I've been thinking about your question about daughters and basically came to a conclusion that if I had a daughter (I don't have any children that I know of), I probably wouldn't want her to become a prostitute, but as Civ2000 said, I'd like to think that I would still love her regardless of her decision.

First, is it OK to fuck somebodies daughter who is a prostitute? Hell yes! As long as she's not a relative! Seriously, every woman is somebodies daughter even orphans have (or had) parents.

The reason I said that I would rather my (philosophical) daughter to NOT become a prostitute is the fact that it's an illegal profession in this country and in most areas of this "Great Nation", the land of the free, etc. street walkers are regarded by society as lower forms of life than criminals like drug dealers, thieves and murderers. Eventually, she would wind up in court facing some charges - if she wasn't busted for prostitution, she would probably wind up in even more trouble due to tax evasion - the girl that James D mentioned: How's she going to explain to the tax man how she could afford a $300K condo if she hasn't paid a nickel in taxes in the last 5 years? If she were to try to pay taxes, how would she declare her income without later being arrested for prostitution? Lie about her profession on the tax forms? I'm pretty sure that's also illegal. I'm pretty sure that Al Capone was imprisoned for tax evasion, not for racketeering or murder.

Because she would be leading a lifestyle that revolves around an illegal activity, she would be a prime target for victimization due to having nowhere to turn for legal recourse.

As many of the other posters have stated, a lot of the streetwalkers here in the USA are addicts or mentally unstable or both. I wouldn't say that the choice to become a prostitute was the cause of their addiction or mental instability, I'd hazard a guess that most had these problems before becoming a prostitute. As I've mentioned in previous posts, I've met some, even here in the USA that seemed to be very well balanced individuals who were just trying to make a lot of money "under the table" in a relatively short period of time - I have no idea how they planned to make that money "legit" as far as the tax man goes.

As for decriminalization vs legalization, I would have to say that I would welcome either, but as I understand it, I would prefer legallization. Obviously, you've spent a lot of time looking at this issue, which I haven't, so I appologize if I'm over-simplifying here. Decriminalization to me basically means that the courts and legislature took the easy way out (elected officials avoid criticism by opponents to legalization) just by telling the police to "turn a blind eye". Since the laws against prostitution would still be on the books, it only requires a small change in elected officials to get the police to start cracking down on prostitution again. Legalization legitimizes the profession and all their rights (equal protection under the law, etc) and woes (government regulation of the industry, paying taxes, etc.) of every other profession would be available to the workers. The difference is that once it is legal, it would be more difficult to make it illegal again because the legislature would actually have to agree to pass a law making it illegal - don't know about legislatures in Oz, but here in the US, they only seem to "agree" when one party is clearly in the majority.

I don't think legalization will happen here in the USA (Nevada has always taken great pride on being different from the rest of the country), but I don't think anyone has a leg to stand on if prostitution were restricted to brothels or designated areas (red light district) - if you don't like it, don't go down there! One of the biggest complaints I hear is from residents in areas where street walkers ply their trade - they don't want their children exposed to "those people".

CW

[Rubber Nursey]

You're absolutely right Civ2000 -- things have been very nasty in here of late and that's upsetting, because the Morality section is usually more like a coffee and a chat with old friends. I know I've been pretty rude myself a few times, but in my defence I've really been feeling like I've been subject to a prolonged attack from a few posters and I did apologise when I took things too far. A gal can only take so much pushing before she's gotta push back! I'll try to be good from now on. If I'm naughty again, Joe can spank me. :)

Joe: "Why should that be amazing, just out of curiousity?"

Because I wasn't born a hooker. I was subject to the same media and community misinformation that everyone else was before I got into the industry and I presumed that sex workers were usually treated like ...to steal an infamous ex-poster's phrase...'sperm receptacles' by their clients. When the first few clients treated me like a 'lover', I thought I'd just been really lucky! After a while I grew to understand that that sort of behaviour was actually the norm for most clients, but it was still kind of surprising. I always thought (at the time) that if *I* was to pay for sex, I would want a selfish, 'lay back and do nothing' session - so it seemed strange that clients wanted to not only participate, but give ME pleasure.

One of the things I found the strangest was the number of guys who wanted to DATY. Women all over the world - including me in my private life! - were complaining that not enough men will do it. And yet here they were, coming in and PAYING me for it! It was quite bizarre.

[Rubber Nursey]

Rock Dog -- As always, that was a really sweet post. :)

I'm gonna get shot for this, but with regard to this - "There's all kinds of prostitutes out there. Women who fuck their boss for a promotion. Women who go out with a guy they wouldn't otherwise, because he makes the bucks. Women who do all kinds of things that they'd never do if it wasn't for them receiving some kind of benefit".

I'd just like to point out that it's often suggested that 'all women are prostitutes', but why can't this be true in reverse? What about the men who pretend to be in love in order to get sex? What about the men who 'bribe' women with gifts or take them out to dinner in order to get sex? etc, etc, etc. It's not like women are the only ones out there on the hunt and willing to do anything to get what they want. I know traditionally 'prostitution' is the giving of sex in exchange for financial gain - but what about the giving of gifts and false promises in exchange for sex?Is that not just as 'immoral'?

(This is not directed at your post in particular, Rock Dog. I just used your statement because it got me thinking).

[Vargr]

Anyone who disagrees with us is a fucking idiot, hypocritical pig with a small dick.Not anyone, just the ones that disagree with me! ;-}

[Joe Zop]

I have to say that I make a big distinction between prostitution and all the other examples cited, for a very specific reason. The others are all essentially about deception. One of the things about prostitution is that it's not deceptive at its core. The agenda is quite clear -- here's cash, here's sex in return. Sure there can be illusion that cloaks things, and sure there can be obsfucation as a negotiating tactic, but both parties are generally aware that is the case, whereas in most of the other cites scenarios that's not the case.

Prostitution is simply more honest about the whole thing. It's not about messing someone's emotions over except in the same way a movie or thrill park ride pushes your emotions. (And yes, I know that some people still mess each over on things, but that's more about the people than the situation.)

RN, I understand your surprise in terms of expectations going into the biz, and that brings up another question -- are there other things sex workers expect about the whole process that end up not being true?


But if the whole equation was simply about getting your rocks off as antiseptically or efficiently as possible (the scenario basically promoted by the poster you reference) then people could just use their own hands and be done with it. It's about skin-to-skin (well, skin to latex these days in some ways, I guess) and muscle to muscle contact with another person -- and if you can roll your hips just so and make me feel good then why wouldn't I do the same back?

Again, sex is also about smell and taste, so why would I possibly draw a line where those were outside of the equation? As far as guys paying to DATY, hmm, well, is that somehow more off the wall than paying to be dominated, etc.? If I remember correctly you related any number of far stranger things guys have paid for than eating out...

But I've gotta confess I've never understood the whole DATY thing, anyway, in terms of it being tough to come by. I can't think of a single relationship I've had where it hasn't been an integral and regular part of coupling. Maybe that's just me, but from reading this board I don't think so.

[Rock Dog]

RN,

You don't have to worry about me getting offended or anything. Actually, I enjoy it when someone takes something I've said and uses it in a different way. That's what we're here for, to share ideas and get each other thinking about new things and in different ways.

That part of my post that you quoted is what I call the Prostitution Principle. Here's my definition: prostitution is what you call it when ANYone (male or female) does something for a perceived benefit that they wouldn't do if they weren't getting that benefit. Most often, this definition is narrowed down a lot, to sex for money. But I like to use it in a wider sense to include when someone does something that results in sexual gratification for someone else, in order to gain some kind of reward.

I even use some terms to describe what I think are the 2 different forms that prostitution takes. The most obvious one, sex for money, I call hard prostitution. The second, less obvious form, I call soft prostitution. This one is a lot easier to disguise because the benefits are often delayed or less tangible. The really ironic part is that this "soft" type of prostitution is far more widespread than the "hard" variety.

By this definition, a guy who gives presents, money or special treatment to a girl in order to get sex isn't really a prostitute. On the other hand, lets say you have a younger guy who goes out with an older woman because she takes him along on a cruise, or lets him live at her place, drive her car etc. According to my definition, he'd be considered a prostitute for sure. Even though no money was involved and even though he was a male.

I don't think all women are prostitutes, but then again most of them seem to know how to make use of the underlying principle when it benefits them. That's why I have a hard time understanding why so many people make this distinction about money for sex, as opposed to exchanging sex for other rewards.

It would seem that prostitution encompasses a broad spectrum of behaviours and possibilities. Sex for money just happens to be at the extreme end of this spectrum.

I think there are various reasons why society needs to put prostitutes in such low regard. These reasons are deeply rooted in both male and female psychology, but that's a topic for another posting :).

My 2 cents for today,

Rock

[Rubber Nursey]

Yogesh: "You want rights no responsibilities, you want to earn tax free money, you want law to protect you as a service provider with no guarantees to the customer" and Cash Works "Decriminalization to me basically means that the courts and legislature took the easy way out ...just by telling the police to "turn a blind eye"."

Decriminalisation means, in effect, the REMOVAL of all offences related to prostitution. Legalisation, in most cases, means the ADDITION of MORE prostitution related offences. Legalisation basically says "These people are not like normal people, so we need specific laws (usually outrageously tough) to control them". Decriminalisation just says that sex for money between consenting adults is no longer a crime. Decriminalisation 'with controls' - the model I am in favour of - is where prostitution is taken out of the criminal codes and certain regulations, such as where street workers can work, where brothels can exist, etc, are put in place instead.

As to the abovementioned comment from Yogesh...that is simply not true.

It is no surprise that workers in places like America don't pay tax, as they would risk being arrested. However, sex workers pay tax in my country, even though in most States sex work is 'technically' illegal. Our Tax Department actually has a section called the Special Audit Division that deals with tax from ILLEGAL earnings. Even drug dealers pay tax here, to avoid having to forfeit their assets to the Government if found guilty of tax evasion! We also have worker's compensation, industrial relations rights and workplace safety guidelines. All those pieces of legislation currently apply to us as workers, even though we are not considered 'legitimate' workers in the eyes of the law.

If you read my post to James D, you will see that I DO want sex workers to have to take responsibility for their actions. As I mentioned above, Australian sex workers already have all the rights (and responsibilities) that we should have as employees - however, the legal situation makes it difficult for both workers and clients to exercise those rights. Decriminalisation would make those protections more accessible to both parties.

[Rubber Nursey]

Joe: "As far as guys paying to DATY, hmm, well, is that somehow more off the wall than paying to be dominated, etc.?"

Only for the same reasons that I mentioned in my last post - that I was never expecting such an intimate act to be requested in a P4P situation.

"RN, I understand your surprise in terms of expectations going into the biz, and that brings up another question -- are there other things sex workers expect about the whole process that end up not being true?"

Just about everything!

[Pokey]

Yogesh, don't send me those nasty PM's, now I know why the others attacked you. But I do understand you're frustration as a regular poster. I recently was at a small monger gathering in my regional different forum, and 3 or 4 members knew about some of my writings here, and when I asked them why don't they write anything they said, it's bullshit to have to wait days for your post to show up. I understand why Jackson does it, perhaps he should have moderators to help him out.

Yogesh, You're right about RN regarding legalization/decriminalizating of prostitution. It seems like she wants it both ways, as she feels legalization is just another burden society puts on them, fingerprints, cards, rules, etc. RN, just wants to erase the criminal codes, making it illegal to arrest her friends and making it easy for them to rip you off.( she will accept a few rules, like not near schools or churches, but nothing else like mandatory STD/AIDS testing, oh she might be for voluntary testing)

I been a worker in the financial industry in the past, and because of it I also have a real estate, insurance license, and I worked with children too. In each and everyone of these fields I had to be either licensed, bonded, and fingerprinted. Even today you could do a seach under "Pokey" and see if I ever had any complaints or been sued. Why should it be any different for sex workers? When you deal with money and sex, it better be regulated to the highest degree as both lead to corruption of the mind and soul.

RN, also claims sex workers pay taxes, so therefore sex workers are entitled to workers compensation. In theory US sex workers pay taxes too; Al Capone was convicted of income tax invasion.
I could just see workers comp here in California, the ripoff capital of the US. You would have sex workers claiming temporary disability because of their montly period, or carpal pussy syndrome. In order to prove permanent disability a sex worker might try to prove she can't bend over and take it doggie style, so therefore she is entitled to permanent disability. This is a joke and a waste of tax payers money.

I read things about such groups as COYOTE in the US who are in cohoots with people like RN, making the place a better world for the sex worker. I really don't know the real agenda, but it doesn't seem like they do much. RN, says she never did drugs, yet helps with drug problem sex workers. I guess it can be done, but usually the most gifted helpers are ex-addicts who been there before. The feminists, most of them don't agree with the RN's agenda, as they feel it's inherently bad, leads to oppression, and degradation of the female mind, sprit, and body.

I agree with RN, I don't want prostitution to be legal here in the US. I don't think we as a society is ready for it yet. I think by keeping in illegal it saves lots of marriages, some anyway, and it help keep addiction under control, because if it was legal there would be more problems. I want to keep it illegal so young people like my daughter will never enter the field, because entry into that field will mean a ugly degrading life, except for the very few beautiful young ones making big bucks.

I don't even think Australia is ready for sex workers. I see the near election is almost in a dead heat, and I came across some right-wing writer named David Sheehan, bias movie review of Michael Moore in the US. This writer supported Pauline Hanson views, and I wonder what he thinks of RN's movement?

Besides, the way CBGB Connisur tells it, Janitors, and bus drivers who are only average looking date hot women "DownUnder" why would there be any need for a sex worker?

[Rubber Nursey]

My Mum taught me if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So I won't.

[Joe Zop]

Yogesh, there are very clear guidelines and processes for getting upgraded to senior membership, all related to the core purpose of this forum, and good (IMHO) reasons for such classifications which Jackson has explained quite clearly. Sorry if the delay frustrates you, but that's not my call. Take it up with him. This section is a very small side-effect of the overall board.

My frustration is based on my inbox being cluttered with a large number of PMs which contained only assertions and obsfucations and which ignored repeated requests and attempts to discuss such assertions either by pretending not to understand or see them. I can frankly listen to a tape of birds chirping and get far more actual interaction (not to mention better content) which is why I classified such back and forth with you as a waste of my time.

One of Webster's definitions of opinion is "a notion or conviction founded on probable evidence; belief stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge; settled judgment in regard to any point of knowledge or action." Asking and discussing what "probable evidence" an opinion is based on is a normal mode of discussion and of forming and adjusting opinion.

Based on our large number of PMs, I can only conclude that to you, "opinion" means repetitious assertion of the same thing without any sense of reasoning or support, and to completely ignore frequent requests for you to provide support for such assertions, and, oh yes, adopting a pious tone of superiority with the person you're addressing. I basically concluded you were not expressing opinions, you were expressing beliefs.

My viewpoint can be contradicted by a four-year-old. That's hardly a big deal. It doesn't mean I see any value in having an adult discussion with said child. My opinions get contradicted here all the time and I keep going back and forth with people I disagree with (and enjoying it) BECAUSE THERE ACTUALLY IS A BACK AND FORTH that progresses the discussion in some way. There was none of that whatsoever in our PMs -- there was you saying that this or that was the absolute uncontradictable truth, and ignoring any request for you to support such an opinion in any way.

I can give an OPINION that you could build a suspension bridge out of lunch meat and that it could handle 50,000 cars a day but unless I could provide some sort of support for such an assertion it's not really worth talking about.

You are obviously free to give your opinions at any time. Expecting me to consider and interact with them, however, means I have the right to expect the same. I've had enough because I saw absolutely none of that from you, which meant I was wasting my time. If I want to read repetitious spam I can go check my email.

[Joe Zop]

"Besides, the way CBGB Connisur tells it, Janitors, and bus drivers who are only average looking date hot women "DownUnder" why would there be any need for a sex worker?"

ROTHLMAO! Thanks, Pokey, that's hilarious.

I'm curious about where you found the David Sheehan review on Moore's movie (I found one done by Paul and not David Sheehan) even though I don't completely understand how that relates to sex work.

[My Alias]

Just in time for Halloween, kids-sized pimp and ho costumes, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=299&ncid=299&e=8&u=/koco/20040902/lo_koco/2355754. Isn't this a bit of an ethical stretch?

[Joe Zop]

Ohmigod, Oosikman, that's priceless, even it is the kind of silly manufactured TV "News" non-story we've all come to know and love. Man, they're seriously bored in Oklahoma, aren't they?

My favorite quote, "McNeel said she would never let her 2-year-old child dress up like a prostitute or a pimp."

Well, that settles it!

(Two great laughs in one day -- thanks guys!)

[Dickhead]

If Yogesh, obviously an Islamic fundamentalist, is ignored, he will go away.

[Rubber Nursey]

Glad someone's laughing -- come sit on the rug in front of the fire, Joe. I've got a book I want you to read for me... ;)

So anyway, I'm wondering - how did *your* first experiences compare to your preconceived notions (if any) about the sex industry? Were you as surprised as I was at what it was really like on the 'inside', or did you get pretty much what you'd bargained for?

[Pokey]

JZ, my mistake it is Paul Sheehan, of the Sydney morning Herald.
It's doesn't really relate to sex workers, but after reading such a blistering attack on Moore's movie and the views of people like Pauline Hanson made famous here at WSG Forum, and the current political situation with the conservative government and labor opposition in a tight race in Australia . I was just wondering how RN's agenda is really playing over there in Australia.

It seems to me they have all the same problems like we do over here in the US, and her positions are really fringe positions, like the Green's party in Australia, but I really don't know because I don't live there.

[Rubber Nursey]

The Federal election has nothing to do with prostitution law reform. Prostitution legislation is a State affair.

[Rubber Nursey]

And talking about me, rather than to me, while I'm effectively standing 'in the room' with you, is just plain childish.

[Pokey]

I didn't know you were in the room, and I'm not talking about you. I'm answering JZ question to me, besides I thought if you didn't have anything nice to say, you were going to say it, especially to me.

I realize prostitution is a state affair in Australia, and I realize people's attitudes vary greatly accross the nation. My question was in a more general sense. How do the people of Australia view prostitution and sex workers rights?

[Rubber Nursey]

The last four years or more of my battle with Government, is well documented on the pages of this forum.

Sex work has been legalised in four States, decriminalised in another, and in the rest it is pretty much openly tolerated. In different opinion polls that were held during the law reform debate, between 70 % and 85% of the WA general community thought prostitution should NOT be illegal. We even had people like the Anglican Church and feminist groups on our side, who were willing to put aside their feelings about sex work itself and concentrate on improving health and safety for sex workers.

WA is traditionally more conservative than many of the other States and yet this current Labor Government has so far softened drug laws, introduced Gay and Lesbian law reform and tried (and failed) to legalise prostitution, amongst other things. The Greens also hold the balance of power in WA Parliament, which helps. Australians in general have been behind nationwide efforts to improve working conditions for sex workers, which is why the situation has improved so dramatically in the last 5 - 10 years (the last five in particular).

[James D 2004]

RN

I thought the DATY request is simple. Guys try to get the most out of it when they pay. The penis can only last so long. Using any other organs is a plus.

It's not easy to give orgasm, or multiples, to a stranger. But DATY increases you chances. I think it was you who talked about two types of vibrators, outside and inside. The pleasure is not his, but he gets something to show for his money.

There are too many providers who do not want to get intimate. The more you get, the more you feel money well spent. If DFK is at the top of the list of difficulty, DATY is one above the bottom - breast sucking. Face, neck, back, feet, toes are somewhere in between.

To be perfectly appertizing, one have to shave at least once every 3 days. Non-pros seldom do that often.

Thanks for the appreciation. Now my video (http://www.wsgforum.com/vforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=282193#post282193) has full length music. Of course I last longer than that the song but not that much footage has enough beats.

[Your Guest]

Dear RN,

This post has been written on 8th Sept. 2004, 2.09 am local time (+ 5.30 hrs Gmt).

I am glad that you agree with me about responsibilities and rights. I do not understand how decriminalisation and legalisation would differ. Of course you have very clearly defined both in your post. However to a lay person like me the difference seems to be to put it mildly very technical.

I want to explain my position here. If I were to draft a law, I would write,

1) Sex between consenting adults isn't the business of the government.

2) If a place advertises itself as one where adults of any sex are available for sex against payment of a consideration, then the owner of the place is to be considered as an EMPLOYER and the adults on offer his/her EMPLOYEES. Both to be governed by the legislations regarding employee employer relationships and statutory compliances such as age of the employee, taxes, insurance, provident fund, retirement benefits, the right of employes to ogranise, etc..

3) Since the said establishment would provide a service it would be governed by relavent Consumer Protection Laws, in order to safeguard the interests of the customer.

4) If food, beverages are provided on the premises of the said establishment, they are to conform to the set standards and relevant regulations.

5) In general every person who intends to work as a CSW, and his/her employer, would bear the responsibility of being in sound health as per standards, be subject to periodic checks to ensure and verify conformation, would be responsible for use of adequate protective devices and practices to ensure safety to self and the customer.

6) A would be subject to all of the above as applicable.

Thus CSAs would be LEGAL and DECRIMINALISED.

RN I am sure this is all that would be necessary to satisfy everybody concerned. Give protection to the CSWs involved, prevent their exploitation, Dissuade CSWs from defrauding/cheating/stealing from their customers. Law enforcement agencies freed from the burden of policing this activity would then be able tackle real crimes.

Yogesh

[Your Guest]

Dickhead you wrote,

Written on 8th Sept 2004

"If Yogesh, obviously an Islamic fundamentalist, is ignored, he will go away."

I am not going to react to this as I consider it below myself to get into an argument which is irrational and illogical.

I cannot resist from quoting an old Indian saying;

"Desist from wrestling with pig in shit, whoever wins it is the pig who enjoys it."

Yogesh

[Your Guest]

Dear Joe,

Written on 8th September 2004

I have no quarrels about the SENIOR MEMBER guidelines and I definitely am NOT complaining to you.The posting delay part was not a complaint. I mentioned THE PROBLEM TO justify my resorting to PMs. I have said that I was sorry that I intruded upon your privacy. If you do not want a qualified apology, here is a straight one;

JOE SORRY FOR PMING TO YOU!

I hope that this settles the issue.

About the pious tone and other stuff I repeat and add that it could be because,

A) English isn't my first language.

B) We could be using different dialects, so the nuances either fall flat or tend to be misunderstood.

C) YOU LACK THE PATIENCE TO APPRECIATE OR AT LEAST UNDERSTAND A DIFFERING VIEW POINT.

Here is my PM corrospondence with you, I see no reason for it to suffer the allegations that you have made.

One of them is,

"One of Webster's definitions of opinion is "a notion or conviction founded on probable evidence; belief stronger than impression, less strong than positive knowledge; settled judgment in regard to any point of knowledge or action." Asking and discussing what "probable evidence" an opinion is based on is a normal mode of discussion and of forming and adjusting opinion"

PLEASE READ (10) BELOW WHERE I MENTION THE BASIS UPON WHICH MY NOTIONS ARE FOUNDED UPON

You also say,

"You are obviously free to give your opinions at any time. Expecting me to consider and interact with them, however, means I have the right to expect the same. I've had enough because I saw absolutely none of that from you, which meant I was wasting my time. If I want to read repetitious spam I can go check my email"

IT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE TO ENGAGE OR DISENGAGE FROM A CONVERSATION.

***********************************************************************

THE PMs THAT I SENT YOU IN THEIR CRONOLOGICAL ORDEER

1) dated 26/8/2004

sorry but pming not to be lost in the crowd
Dear Joe,

Just to set the record right

What made you believe that I do not consider consensual commercial sex, consensual sex between adults? I Do.

I say that generally only criminals would be involved in a criminal activity. If prohbition were to be reintroduced in the US would any body but the Al Capone types sell alcohol?

It is not a persons involvement that makes it criminal only a criminally inclined person would be probably involved in a criminal activity?

The only way out Legalise Commercial Sex Activities

2) dated 29/8/2004

Me again.

Dear Joe,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes I am generalising, but how many dollars worth of illicit liquor did Mom and Pop joints as you refer to them as, sell and what was the worth of liquor sold by organised criminals.

If a majority (arithmatically more than 50%) was operated by criminals then we can safely state that criminals quenched America's thirst during the prohibition era.

This analogy can be used for commercial sex activities too.

3) dated 30/8/2004

Re: Me again.

Dear Joe,

Will you be kind enough to pm me the source of your statistics.

HERE YOU PASSED THOSE LINKS

4) dated 1/9/2004

Thank you.

Thank you. Give me a couple of days. I'll go through them and then get back to you.

YOGESH TAKING SIDES

5)dated 2/9/2004

Bceause Pms reach faster

Hey, Pokey isn't an unapologetic exploiter, he is an apologetic exploiter.

THIS WAS WHEN YOU YOU INDICATED YOUR DESIRE TO QUIT THE CONVERSATION

6)dated 2/9/2004

Keep talking pl

Hey Joey,

My comment was just an exageration and made to convey sarcasm.

I very much appreciate your ethical approach which is clear from your statement that you avoided P4P in India, as there was place for doubt. I've never been to Delhi, but I'm sure it is too filthy to consider even otherwise.

I repeat that you are a gem and an honourable (if you may allow me) exception, atleast in this particular instance.

I did not read any of your examples or experiences, there haven't been any?? posted of late. It was your irritating hypothetical, pious, banter, the holier than thou airs which provoked me into making that illogical statement.

You have given an example (Delhi, India ) and I have raised my hat in salute.

I hope this sets te record straight. Looking forward to more of these friendly skirmishes.

Also probably you are right when you write that I consider prostitution and all those who are involved inherently evil. (however it is too strong a word), on the other hand I would say I consider it disagreeable. I hope you allow me the luxury of the right to have an opinion.

You are in your rage contradicting yourself, you write "But the bottom line is I've had utterly no problem in my travels finding partners who were clearly working of their own free will" and you admit that you were unable to in India, in other words you had a problem in a place which has 7% of the world's land mass and 20% of the worlds population, is that not a large problem???

I COMMENT ON THE REFERENCES WHOSE LINKS YOU PROVIDED EARLIER.

7)dated 2/9/2004

Re: Me again.
HI,

I read the links, the first one was amateur hearsay, and nevertheless contained nothing supporting your argument.

The second one which is well referenced and objective quite clearly supports my viewpoint that make an activity criminal and criminals rush to take it over,

eg,

In summary, Prohibition did not achieve its goals. Instead, it added to the problems it was intended to solve and supplanted other ways of addressing problems. The only beneficiaries of Prohibition were bootleggers, crime bosses, and the forces of big government. Carroll Wooddy concluded that the "Eighteenth Amendment . . . contributed substantially to the growth of government and of government costs in this period [1915-32]."[57]


Repeal of Prohibition dramatically reduced crime, including organized crime, and corruption.

The most telling sign of the relationship between serious crime and Prohibition was the dramatic reversal in the rates for robbery, burglary, murder, and assault when Prohibition was repealed in 1933. That dramatic reversal has Marxist and business-cycle crime theorists puzzled to this day. For example, sociologist John Pandiani noted that "a major wave of crime appears to have begun as early as the mid 1920s [and] increased continually until 1933 . . . when it mysteriously reversed itself."[50] Theodore Ferdinand also found a "mysterious" decline that began in 1933 and lasted throughout the 1930s.[51] How could they miss the significance of the fact that the crime rate dropped in 1933?

8) dated 2/9/2004

CC

Dear Joe,

I wrote a few days ago, "Joe on the other hand admits only to have correct sex, clean and consensual, as mythical as the Atlantis.", I have clarified earlier today that it was an exageration, there is another angle too, that is I alleged that your admission was not true, fictional, mythical, that is because I felt then that your claim of ALWAYS was a bit too far fetched. You say you abstained in India when you were not sure, I take your word for it.

CIV2000'S DATE SHOULD HAVE READ 2/9/2004

9)dated 2/9/2004

Replying to pms

Dear Mr. Zop,

Sorry about calling you Joey, I meant no offence, I just wanted to sound friendly, yes finally we seem to have reached some common ground. The only disagreement seems to be the degree, I suppose you have read Civ2000's post on 2/11/2004, replying to your statistics about incidence of AIDS, endemic among ALL types of CSWs.

About the prohibition analogy, the said link clearly demonstrates the link between crime and prohibition. It states with relavent references that prohibition gave birth to organised crime.

Our argument is whether organised crime runs organised prostitution, my argument where ever it is illegal it does and I stand by it. I repeat most organised prostitution is run by criminals where ever it is illegal. We are not talking about a few coeds, or bored housewives out for pin money etc. when I say most it means a majority. And a majority starts with 51%.

Remember no where have I considered CSWs criminals.

Also kindly go through my posts dated 2/9/2004 for more of my views.

Just curious, do you teach at college, non of my business of course, but as I sasid just curious, and Pokey thinks you do.

Yes and as your rule is have to furnish information about myself;

I am a Civil Engineer and own a tiny firm involved in construction related activities.


10) dated 4/9/2004

Yogesh here.

If you remember you wanted me to give my cv first before I wanted any any bodys personal details, (this is at the very begining, I had requested backgrounds of those posting and you wanted me to cough mine up), so I followed the same rule, gave mine before I asked yours.

Any way I was just joking when I asked whether you taught. So you are a writer and a consultant, what kind of consultations do you do, if I may ask?

Incidently I have renewed acquaintance with a lady who is a Phd in English and has done her doctoral research on Tom Stoppard's plays. I am telling this to you as you are a writer yourself. Met her at a Rotary meeting.

Dear Joe I am 35 years old and my opinions and reactions are based on what I have experienced so far, what I have been told by people, what I have seen on TV, read, my on line interactions, etc. some of it is also a result of me adding a and b.

I wonder what you wanted me to tell you about Kenya for instance, kindly be more specific.

SKIPPING ONE POST THAT WAS JUST CIV2000S PUBLIC POST

11) dated 5/9/2004

Never been to Kenya before.

Technology and information, a bit to generalised isn't it.

Yes, I will tell my acquaintance, that I know a person whose favourite, Stoppard play is "Dog's Hamlet", I will let you know her reaction.

I have asked you before, I repeat please question a specific opoinion that I have expressed. A particular opinion that you want me to substantiate.

Tit for tat, are we here to teach one another lessons?



I MEANT HERE THAT LEGAL IS WHAT I AM ARGUNG FOR

12) dated 5/9/2004

Re: Civ2000's message that I refered to.
I am sorry the date that I had written must have been wrong, I am not a very accurate typist.

Isn't LEGAL the keyword in this sentence that you have writen?

"(I could note, for example, that there is not ONE single instance of a legal prostitute in Nevada contracting HIV, and they are required by law to be tested monthly.) "

Legal that is what I want CSA's to be.

I TRY TO REASON THAT PROBABLY WE ARE MISUNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER

13) dated 5/9/2004

Probably we shall take a break for a while.

You have started to curse. I firmly believe that a person starts to use inappropriate language when he runs out of ideas.

Yes give me some time I will tell you my story.

Joe the trouble is that even though both of us are writing in English, we seem to interpret words sentences and phrases differerntly. I am sure this must interest you as a writer. I guess despite the communication revolution, the internet, we are all living in our own worlds speaking our own dialects. It is not just you that I have had this experience. It is something that I commonly face on the net.

Exchange of information usually causes very little trouble, however when ideas are discussed the connection seems to get disturbed

[Cash Works]

JZ!,

"Prostitution is simply more honest about the whole thing. It's not about messing someone's emotions over except in the same way a movie or thrill park ride pushes your emotions. (And yes, I know that some people still mess each over on things, but that's more about the people than the situation.)"

You brought up my old argument (07/03/2004) about prostitution being the only honest way to get laid! And I kinda thought you disagreed with me way back when!

While I still believe it to be true, I originally posted the comment to see if I could get this forum going again - hadn't been any posts for at least a week prior to that comment (I guess this makes me guilty of "stirring shit"). It seems to have worked...and now, we're, unfortuantely having flame wars, though not as bad as ones I've seen in various forums on the Asia section, flame wars, all the same - Civ, I agree with you here. Everyone has the right to disagree, but try to be polite or at least non-abusive.

RN,

I wrote a fairly long comment about decriminalization vs legalization, but my Internet Explorer crashed (window just disappeared!) before I was able to submit it. Basically, I think we're in agreement, there's just a bit of a problem with semantics. To me, the term "decriminalization" means reducing the penalty for an illegal act from a felony to a misdemeanor and reducing the punishment for said illegal activity as well - possibly to the point that the police wouldn't even bother enforcing the law unless the perpetrator were arrested for something else - prosecution looks more impressive if the defense has 30 charges against them, rather than just one or two. Legalization to me, means that the activity which was once illegal, is no longer illegal and therefore legal. The results of my two definitions may be similar, but the difference is that with decriminalization, there are still laws on the books against whatever activity was decriminalized, where as there would no longer be laws on the books against any legalized activity. I'm no lawyer, so my definitions may not be correct in "legalese", they're just the way I understand the terms. Ex: In North Carolina, where I live, it's illegal to possess a lottery ticket. All the states surrounding NC have lotteries and many North Carolinians (myself included) play the lotteries in other states. Technically, we could be arrested for bringing the tickets back to NC, but various law enforcement big-wigs have stated that the only way anyone will be prosecuted for possession of a lottery ticket is if they're arrested for something else & the cops just happen to find lottery tickets in your possession. Even then, they say they probably wouldn't bother, unless it appeared that you intended to resell the tickets.

DATY - pheremones play a big part in intimacy and sex. How better to get an extreme dose of female pheremones than DATY? (I think JZ made the same comment, just a bit more detailed).

CW

[Joe Zop]

Pokey, though I think Sheehan's "review" is pretty much baloney, I do find it amusing that he brings up a lot of the same things about Michael Moore that I like to tease him with (I've known him since we were both teenagers) such as the fact that he's not really a working-class Flint kid, he's from one of the better suburbs. (However, I'm entitled to tease him about it -- Sheehan's just an idiot.) I don't think Sheehan has anything to do with Hansen's views, however.


RN, in point of fact my first encounter with prostitution was an object lesson in stupidity and how not to do things -- I was nineteen, drunk on my ass, carrying too much money and on impulse said yes to a SW who waved me down on a corner while I was on my way home. I went into a dingy dive she apparently shared with some other girls specifically for tricking, in a very bad neighborhood, without giving it a second thought. While I was getting blown, with my pants off, she took and emptied my wallet, something I discovered later only because she brought it down to my car as I was leaving, probably either because she wanted to reinforce to me how stupid I was or because she didn't want me coming back later.

What in fact I remembered later (other than the fact that it was expensive once everything was factored in) was not the specifics of the encounter, but the fact that it was the best head I'd yet received in my young life, far better than anything I'd gotten from girlfriends.

But at that point, to be honest, I had precious few preconceptions about prostitutes, and no sense about the complexities or social issues involved.

[Pokey]

JZ, well we agree on something that Sheehan's an idiot. I came across him because me being the liberal was defending Moore. While looking into Sheehan's writings it seems like he did have a soft spot for Hanson. I also was stuck on Australia had right-wing newspapers on par with our Fox television. Yet, RN says the majority of people especially liberals in Australia support prostitution. Maybe the poll question is posed the wrong way, but who I'm I to say.

JZ, I'm sorry you had to take all that abuse from Yogesh, and his private PM's, shit I'd go crazy if I got that many. I now know what to do if someone gets me pissed here. ( RN get ready for private PM's from me) Yogesh, thanks for correction on me being a "Apologetic exploiter".

Since, we are talking about the first time with a sex workers, I'm going to chime in here. The first time for me was when I was 18 years old, in Hollywood Ca, Sunset Bl. I was ripped off by a cute 25 year old, in the back of my Chevy pickup truck. She gave me a BBBJTC, and since I was 18 after shooting my load; I was ready to fuck but the SW said because I came already that I'd have to pay more money, she then kissed my lips put on her panties and jumped out of my truck leaving me a little frustrated and wanting more.

Cash works, says that prostitution is more honest, maybe it is maybe it isn't. DH, a few post back spoke of jealousy and other problems with sex workers. I agree with DH, especially if you frequent certain places all the time and the girls get to know you.

For example, I went to this bar in Mexico, and took this girl upstairs, she was young with nice shaved pussy. While giving me a BJ I asked her to turn around so I could feast on her pussy. She didn't want to say no to me, so instead told me she had to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140), she went to the bathroom, squatted down and took a [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) without wiping. She then came back to bed, and I didn't skip a beat and started feasting away on the wet pussy.

Two weeks later I go to the same bar and the same girl tries to hang around me. I tell her politely that I'm not interested, and when she see's me with another girl, she just stares, and gives dirty looks to the other girl. This happens all the time, and some times I just tell the girl, that I didn't like her the time before. The worst problem I have is when they tell you they love you, or want to borrow $5000 for a important operation for her mother, or else she will die, or they want to finish their house back home for both of you, etc etc,.

[Joe Zop]

Yogesh, I do understand your point of view -- it's truly not at all difficult to understand, despite your sense that it must be otherwise. I cannot however "appreciate" it or agree in any way without some sort of sense of what the opinion is grounded in, which you repeatedly fail to provide. I'm sure everyone is edified by seeing all those PMs with no sense of continuity since my replies are not included -- though I do thank you at least for the courtesy of not posting things I wrote specifically to you and not for posting in this thread. I will not post all of mine here as I have no interest in further conversation to you, and I will not subject everyone here to them, but I will post a portion of a single reply I made, simply because it demonstrates the point I was making regarding my frustration in trying to have a conversation with you.

You wrote to me:

"Our argument is whether organised crime runs organised prostitution, my argument where ever it is illegal it does and I stand by it. I repeat most organised prostitution is run by criminals where ever it is illegal. We are not talking about a few coeds, or bored housewives out for pin money etc. when I say most it means a majority. And a majority starts with 51%."

I replied once, asking you to support your statement on "majority" by using a place. say, Kenya, as an example, and then in another PM on Sept. 3rd I said, in part:

"My query regarding your experiences was simple: you have a lot of opinions and have made a lot of pronouncements regarding prostitution, and it would be helpful to have a sense of how they're grounded -- whether they come from actual experience or personal knowledge or contact with prostitution, or whether this is all theoretical, coming from reading and discussion. That is unclear from the information you've provided.

"And the Kenya thing is also quite simple: you stated, ABSOLUTELY, that the MAJORITY of prostitution (51% at least, a majority) EVERYWHERE where it wasn't legal was run by organized crime. So I'm saying, ok, let's pick a place, I've been to Kenya, I've seen the scene there, prostitution is illegal -- so kindly point me to a SHRED of evidence that says the sex trade in Kenya is run by organized crime. If you can't come up with such evidence, or even some sort of reference that says it's the case, then you are just talking through your hat and your statement has absolutely no validity."

I simply don't know how to be more clear about what I was asking for. Perhaps someone else here can tell me how else to say it.

There are many other instances I could cite, but I'm not going to bore people here any more with it -- I'm tired with all of this and there are far more interesting topics being discussed here.

Yes, there could be an understanding problem. Yes, nuance could be lost (which is the nature of online communication anyway.) It doesn't really matter -- the bottom line is that we clearly do not communicate as you have utterly no understanding of the points I have repeatedly made to you regarding opinion and support.

I recall quite well the first and second PMs I got from you -- the first attacked me for some statistics I posted regarding the amount of people who spoke English in various countries (not my stats, with the source clearly identified) in response to a question someone asked. Your PM called me a complete idiot and fool, if I recall correctly (I've long since deleted it.) Your second PM said, oh, please ignore my previous PM and never mind me attacking you, as it was late and I misread.

Let me merely suggest that perhaps you should also consider whether your own accusation "YOU LACK THE PATIENCE TO APPRECIATE OR AT LEAST UNDERSTAND A DIFFERING VIEW POINT" might not be applied to you. I readily confess that after going through a long series of PMs with you, I do indeed lack the patience to continue in something that has eaten up a fair amount of my time and has seemed utterly fruitless.

You wrote, "IT IS YOUR PREROGATIVE TO ENGAGE OR DISENGAGE FROM A CONVERSATION."

Kindly consider me disengaged.

[Rock Dog]

Greetings all,

I read one of yogurts recent posts about how many pm's he sent to Joe Zop. Man I'd go nuts if that happened to me. I've learned not to bother replying to any of his posts and he's pretty much quit bothering with me.

I remember after his first 2 or 3 posts here, I predicted to another member that he'd be going on forever...... engaging in a never-ending debate about this subject. So far it looks like I was right. It's just my opinion, but he never really engages in a discussion, he just states his position and then proceeds to instruct us on why he is right and we are wrong. Any rebuttal of his opinion is met with yet another counter-arguement and it goes on forever.

Anyways, I did a search on his postings so far. 30 out of 36 of his posts are in this forum. Of the other 6, 2 are letters to the editor relating to his posts in this forum. It was interesting to see that a couple of his early posts in the Bombay and New Delhi sections seemed to hint that he has had some mongering experiences of his own.

I thought some of you might find this info interesting. If it's true..... he'd be one of the biggest hypocrites around.

Rock

ps. I'm sure this post will provoke an immediate counter- response from the party in question. Let's see what kind of explanation he can come up with.

[Joe Zop]

Cash Works, I still disagree with your statement that prostitution is the only honest way to get laid. Saying prostitution at its core is more honest than some of the nefarious examples given certainly isn't saying it's the only honest way.

Pokey, given that Rupert Murdoch, the CEO of Fox, was born in Melbourne, and started his media empire there, yes, there are definitely things like our Fox TV in Oz!

[My Alias]

in recent weeks i've seen a few people post items that seemed to be bragging about how they didn't like a girl's attitude so even though she doesn't like greek they visited the islands anyway, or how a girl was so out of it they decided to take advantage of the situation. some of the descriptions sounded like [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), or at least close enough to the legal definitions that you could be tried for it in my state.

the reason i'm posting in here is i'm hoping to get a discussion going about boundaries. yes, most of the men here are paying to play and most of the women mentioned accept payment for play. but there are still some boundaries to respect. if a woman says she doesn't do something, such as greek, or is too incoherent to realize someone's having away with her, then it's time for the monger to back down. i have no problems with pay-for-play action between two consenting adults, but both adults have to agree they want to do it. show the ladies some respect, guys.

[PosterLion]

the economist view (sep 2nd 2004 - from the economist print edition)

here is an article from a rag that i particularly enjoy (that is i enjoyed the article and i also enjoy the rag).

poster...

===

attitudes to commercial sex are hardening. but tougher laws are wrong in both principle and practice.

two adults enter a room, agree a price, and have sex. has either committed a crime? common sense suggests not: sex is not illegal in itself, and the fact that money has changed hands does not turn a private act into a social menace. if both parties consent, it is hard to see how either is a victim. but prostitution has rarely been treated as just another transaction, or even as a run-of-the-mill crime: the oldest profession is also the oldest pretext for outraged moralising and unrealistic lawmaking devised by man.

in recent years, governments have tended to bother with prostitution only when it threatened public order. most countries (including britain and america) have well-worn laws against touting on street corners, against the more brazen type of brothel and against pimping. this has never been ideal, partly because sellers of sex feel the force of law more strongly than do buyers, and partly because anti-soliciting statutes create perverse incentives. on some occasions, magistrates who have fined streetwalkers have been asked to wait a few days so that the necessary money can be earned.

so there is perennial discussion of reforming prostitution laws. during the 1990s, the talk was all of liberalisation. now the wind is blowing the other way. in 1999, sweden criminalised the buying of sex. france then cracked down on soliciting and outlawed commercial sex with vulnerable women—a category that includes pregnant women. britain began to enforce new laws against kerb-crawling earlier this year, and is now considering more restrictive legislation (see article). outside a few pragmatic enclaves, attitudes are hardening. whereas, ten years ago, the discussion was mostly about how to manage prostitution and make it less harmful, the aim now is to find ways to stamp it out.

the puritans have the whip hand not because they can prove that tough laws will make life better for women, but because they have convinced governments that prostitution is intolerable by its very nature. what has tipped the balance is the globalisation of the sex business.

the white slave trade

it is not surprising that many of the rich world's prostitutes are foreigners. immigrants have a particularly hard time finding jobs that pay well; local language skills are not prized in the sex trade; prostitutes often prefer to work outside their home town. but the free movement of labour is as controversial in the sex trade as in any other business. wherever they work, foreign prostitutes are accused of driving down prices, touting “extra” services and consorting with organised criminal pimps who are often foreigners, too. the fact that a very small proportion of women are trafficked—forced into prostitution against their will—has been used to discredit all foreigners in the trade, and by extension (since many sellers of sex are indeed foreign) all prostitutes.

abolitionists make three arguments. from the right comes the argument that the sex trade is plain wrong, and that, by condoning it, society demeans itself. liberals (such as this newspaper) who believe that what consenting adults do in private is their own business reject that line.

from the left comes the argument that all prostitutes are victims. its proponents cite studies that show high rates of sexual abuse and drug taking among employees. to which there are two answers. first, those studies are biased: they tend to be carried out by staff at drop-in centres and by the police, who tend to see the most troubled streetwalkers. taking their clients as representative of all prostitutes is like assessing the state of marriage by sampling shelters for battered women. second, the association between prostitution and drug addiction does not mean that one causes the other: drug addicts, like others, may go into prostitution just because it's a good way of making a decent living if you can't think too clearly.

a third, more plausible, argument focuses on the association between prostitution and all sorts of other nastinesses, such as drug addiction, organised crime, trafficking and **** sex. to encourage prostitution, goes the line, is to encourage those other undesirables; to crack down on prostitution is to discourage them.

brothels with brands

plausible, but wrong. criminalisation forces prostitution into the underworld. legalisation would bring it into the open, where abuses such as trafficking and under-age prostitution can be more easily tackled. brothels would develop reputations worth protecting. access to health care would improve—an urgent need, given that so many prostitutes come from diseased parts of the world. abuses such as child or forced prostitution should be treated as the crimes they are, and not discussed as though they were simply extreme forms of the sex trade, which is how opponents of prostitution and, recently, the governments of britain and america have described them.

puritans argue that where laws have been liberalised—in, for instance, the netherlands, germany and australia—the new regimes have not lived up to claims that they would wipe out pimping and sever the links between prostitution and organised crime. certainly, those links persist; but that's because, thanks to concessions to the opponents of liberalisation, the changes did not go far enough. prostitutes were made to register, which many understandably didn't want to do. not surprisingly, illicit brothels continued to thrive.

if those quasi-liberal experiments have not lived up to their proponents' expectations, they have also failed to fulfil their detractors' greatest fears. they do not seem to have led to outbreaks of disease or under-age sex, nor to a proliferation of street prostitution, nor to a wider collapse in local morals.

which brings us back to that discreet transaction between two people in private. if there's no evidence that it harms others, then the state should let them get on with it. people should be allowed to buy and sell whatever they like, including their own bodies. prostitution may be a grubby business, but it's not the government's

[Rubber Nursey]

Cash Works: In Sydney, sex work was decriminalised in the seventies - all laws pertaining to sex work were removed from the NSW Criminal Code. New 'controls' or guidelines were created in order to regulate the industry, HOWEVER, most of these guidelines do not appear as criminal legislation. There are Council zoning regulations that specify where a brothel can and cannot operate (with, would you believe, a clause that says a decision can't be made solely on 'moral' grounds). There are workplace safety regulations that ensure adequate working conditions, as well as indicating sex workers' Duty of Care to their clients. Having a Duty of Care means that a sex worker can be held accountable if she was to knowingly pass on an STD to a client - hence regular testing is encouraged (and freely undertaken) for a sex worker's own good, rather than trying to enforce mandatory testing. Sex workers - even street workers - can pay tax, demand workers rights, charge clients with assault, etc, because they are not committing a criminal act.

The only real criminal legislation in NSW tells sex workers what they CAN'T do, rather than what they CAN. Rather than creating a 'red light' district and telling girls they can only work in that particular place, like many countries do, NSW has laws that say a girl can work anywhere she likes, EXCEPT near a school or church or childcare centre, in a residential area, etc. Conducting a prostitution related activity only becomes a crime if it is conducted in the wrong place. Oh, and brothels in Sydney, like our other States, are not allowed to sell alcohol.

Compare all that to Melbourne or Queensland, or the proposed 2002 laws in WA. In legalisation, original laws are often left on the books, with increased penalties, so they can be applied to anyone who continues to work outside the legal framework. An entirely new legal framework is then described in entirely new additional legislation, usually with additional criminal offences to be applied to any legal worker/brothel owner that steps out of line. Street work is basically never legalised, leaving the most vulnerable workers (and the biggest 'public nuisance' aspect) in the same place it started. The only difference is that legalisation usually causes a massive increase in the number of street workers, as girls are driven out of legal brothels by licensing.

Sorry to bend your ear for so long. Here's an idea of where I'm coming from http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/laws/wa/ (go to 'Submission to WA Green Bill' at the bottom of the page).

PS. I just thought I should add this. With regard to your comment: "Legalization to me, means that the activity which was once illegal, is no longer illegal and therefore legal".
Our case differs a little to America, in that the ACT of prostitution is not illegal in Australia. (It's not legal either - it's just not on the books as a crime). Our laws really only cover where you can do it and who can profit from it. Where you can do it can quite easily be covered in Council zoning regulations. Laws pertaining to who can profit from it were created to stop pimping, coercion, exploitation and all those other nasties. However, those things are CRIMES and should be treated as such under our Criminal Code, as deprivation of liberty, sexual assault, sex slavery or child abuse offences. There is no need for sex industry specific criminal legislation.

[Wicked SH]

I find it funny that a number of states in the US are considering decriminalizing/legalizing certain drugs, while on the other had banning legitimate business.

Legal drugs are bad enough, Smoking, and Alcohol. Take huge chunks out of their users. I have seen family members combat both. I have watched a few die of lung cancer, and two die of sirrocisis (I know it is misspelled) of the liver. I have watched them cope with how to break the addictions, and futilely fail time after time. 10 step programs, latest fads, pills, TCM, hypnosis, blah, blah, blah.

I have used all kinds of drugs. So it is not that I feel they are evil. The trick with all kinds of drugs both legal and illegal is that you have to realize that moderation is how you prevent addiction. A little of something won’t hurt you. But if you take a little, every day, you soon start taking more and more. You can’t use drugs to cope with your problems, they only compound them.

But we all know that the morons who have addictive personalities will become addicted to anything. So why should the government legalize Pot, or Cocaine but not legalize/decriminalize prostitution? Because married women won’t allow it. They know that in one law they would lose their control over their pussy whipped men.

So we can give up even considering some form of legalization / decriminalization. It will not happen until those fat ugly married women regardless of their socio economic status loose the right to vote. Or until men go out and marry only working girls so that they get a chance to build a power base.

I’m tired of all the freedoms that have been, and continue to be lost all around the world. A number of the laws that have reduced your ability to live a free life have been forced on you in the last 50 years by the very governments you voted in.

The basis of a free nation is that you have to respect individual rights, liberties, and freedoms. For instance you can’t make guns illegal then expect those people to respect your freedom to buy cocaine or visit prostitutes. The only way to keep the land free is to respect all forms of freedom and everyone’s right to their own opinion, even if you violently disagree with them. The problem is that these things happen slowly at first only small infractions, but as time builds the next thing you know you’re paying 40% of your income to a government that controls every aspect of your life. Since we can’t prevent moron special interest groups from having a voice and staying out of our life, and we can’t prevent the wholesale loss of freedom that has occurred.

[Rubber Nursey]

yogesh: strangely enough, i agree with almost all your post. in the words of bill hicks..."who woulda thunk it"??? lol

like sporadic said the other day though, there's always a 'but'. these are mine.

"1) sex between consenting adults isn't the business of the government".
absolutely - and if sex between consenting adults is really no business of the government's, there need be no criminal laws, whatsoever, pertaining to it. as i said in the post below, any sexual crimes that occur within the sex industry can be prosecuted under existing, non-sex industry specific, legislation. any other regulations can be monitored by the relevant health/workplace/consumer/employment agencies, again without the need for sex industry specific legislation.

"2) if a place advertises itself as one where adults of any sex are available for sex against payment of a consideration, then the owner of the place is to be considered as an employer and the adults on offer his/her employees".

believe it or not, it is not usually in the sex worker's best interest to be considered an employee. one reason is that with an employment contract comes a 'job description' - which could quite easily be used by an unscrupulous brothel owner to force sex workers to do things they don't want to do. right now as 'independent contractors' we get to choose our working hours, choose what services we provide, knock back clients, choose what we wear, leave an unsatisfactory workplace without notice, etc. under an employment contract we could lose those choices.

the other thing is that the 'transience' of the sex industry works in everyone's favour - workers, brothel owners and clients alike. workers make more when they are the 'new girl'. going from brothel to brothel earns you more money. brothels like to have a constant supply of new faces, because clients don't want to see the same girls there week after week. employment contracts would force workers to stay in one place for extended lengths of time, which benefit's nobody.

and imagine if it was your very first day at work and you were forced to sign a contract before you even saw your first client. what happens when the first booking turns your stomach and you just want to get the hell outta there and never come back (which happens often), but you've signed a contract saying you can't leave without two weeks notice? what if an employee is raped? what if family or friends find out where she's working? what if she contracts a disease and needs to take time off for treatment? i would personally never sign an employment contract with a brothel.

[Joe Zop]

oosikman, your point is indeed one that comes up on this forum often, and i think you've described it quite well. when the issue is mongers controlling and doing something the provider clearly does not agree to, (or have the ability to agree to) it absolutely is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). i've seen people argue that, hey, i'm "buying" her body, so she should do what i want, and if she doesn't agree with that then she shouldn't have agreed to the session. that argument is specious bullshit. we wouldn't feel, for example, that a sex worker agreed to being part of an s/m session and could be burned willy-nilly with cigarettes, simply because she agreed to a general sex session, so why should other violations be acceptable? if i rent a car i don't get the right to repaint it simply because i've a mind to do so.

if i want a specific act, i make sure i ask for it beforehand. if i don't ask, then it's something that needs to be negotiated during the session or, as is more usually the case with me, it's something that gets explored during the session and is either available or not. it's just not that tough to ask, "what's on the menu?" or "what do you allow?" before things commence.

consent is consent, and lack of consent is lack of consent.

[Rubber Nursey]

some people seem to have a problem distinguishing the difference between 'buying someone's body' and buying a service. to paraphrase a sex worker activist (whose name escapes me) "how can i be selling my body, if i've still got all the parts that i started with?"

if you paid the deli for one candy and then took a handful instead, it would be theft. i guess taking more than you paid for from a sex worker could also be considered theft - but due to the sexual nature of the 'product' being stolen, it's most definitely sexual assault.

you are absolutely right, oosikman. [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), regardless of whether the woman is a sex worker or not.

[The Virgin Terr]

my posts don't appear immediately, and when they finally do it seems they are inserted in the time slot when they were originally sent by me, which may have been yesterday or before that, and in the meantime, since this thread is currently so hot, there may be a dozen more recent posts, so mine gets buried and goes unread, except for people like rn who apparently checks back in time. can anyone tell me what i need to do to eliminate this time delay? do i need to send jackson an email or what?

rn's reports are posted immediately because she is a senior member. i would suggest that you consider applying for senior member status yourself, although i can tell you from looking at all the writing mistakes that i'm going to have to edit in this report that you haven't figured the system out yet.

rn, your responses to my questions haven't cleared up my confusion over women and sex. what i mean is, you admit that some clients are unattractive in appearance, yet great lovers. on the other hand, you've also admitted in the past to having had horrible experience with at least one guy you found attractive enough to pick up for sex for pleasure, only to get raped for your trouble when this guy figured he could do whatever he pleased once given permission one time. the obvious thought or question that comes to my mind is: why not always get paid for sex, given that customers are often better lovers, while 'attractive' non-customers turn out to be asshole abusers? if i could get paid for sex and pleasured simultaneously, while discovering that those who don't pay are actually less respectful, i think it would be an easy choice to kill 2 birds with one stone by having both my financial and sexual needs attended to in this way. in the past you've also complained about lack of sex, when not working! why don't you quit?

re. honest sexual relationships, i have this to say: i've been married one time. looking back on that i can honestly say i did it to have regular sex and companionship, not because i'd found a soulmate i wanted to be monogamous with. i was essentially dishonest to obtain a sexual relationship, and eventually paid for that mistake emotionally with a traumatic divorce. since accepting prostitution as a moral response to meeting sexual need, i feel no need to lie about 'committing' to someone just to get sex. for me, prostitution has been much more honest and moral than marriage was. i can admit to physical attractions without having to lie about 'commitment'.

editor's note: posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to capitalize the word "i". to avoid future delays, please use a capital "i" to refer to yourself in future reports. thanks!

editor's note: posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to correctly spell the words "you", "are" and "because". to avoid delays in future reports, please refrain from using "u" instead of "you", "r" instead or "are", "em" instead of "them", and "cuz" instead of "because", etc. thanks!

[Dickhead]

you want to talk about [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), read looking for lefty's latest jewel in the milwaukee, wisconsin section. he picks up some drunk chick, not a hooker, and butt fucks her while she is passed out. that shit is repulsive to me.

i think a prostitute should have the same right as any other woman to tell the guy to stop, except i think if she does she has to give the money back. i know quite a few guys who seem to think it's funny to come in the gal's mouth after promising not to and that is probably a form of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) too, although accidents do happen.

hey rubbie i was in the penthouse brothel in sydney and i definitely remember drinking wine there, and they have a bar. but i don't think they charge extra for the drink. maybe that's how they get around it?

here in buenos aires it is technically illegal to have sex in a club that serves alcohol. therefore we have a number of hourly hotels that are strategically located near the clubs. i don't use 'em, though. i figure if i don't trust the gal enough to bring her to my place i don't trust her enough to fuck her.

one thing that is sort of immoral down here is that a lot of chicas come here from other mercosur countries but still only have 90 day visas. once they overstay them which they often do, they can't work in the clubs. that means they have to work in the privados (apartments), and that means they have to take all comers. plus some of the privados will take a bigger cut from the illegals because they know they can't complain. if i find out a privado is doing that, i cross it off my list. fortunately my list is quite extensive.

i knew yogesh was a hindu name and not a muslim name but i wanted to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) the guy off anyway. i have to live up to my handle at least some of the time.

[Rubber Nursey]

I'd say you're right about the booze - the laws in most States say that a brothel can't have a liquor license and a liquor licensed venue can't offer prostitution. But I guess if you're an illegal brothel or you're selling booze without a liquor license, the other laws probably don't really apply. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

omigod...i just read that post. i shouldn't have. what a low-down piece of [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126) shit! words cannot express how much i'd like to jam something up his ass right now. no lube. no warning. no fucking consent.

it's [insert insult here] like him that give the rest of you mongers a bad name. and then there's posts after it, treating him like he's a [insert rude word here] legend! if i were jackson i'd shut that [insert yet another insult here] up before le or some feminist group reads it and assumes that this site condones that sort of behaviour.

(edited for freeler :) )

[Dickhead]

if it makes you feel any better, i think the guy makes a lot of his shit up. i did think about reporting the post to jackson but i see him pretty often so i figure i'll tell him to check it out when i see him in person. now go back and read his post about the "wheel party." that one isn't exactly about [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) but it ain't too moral either.

[Joe Zop]

if i recall correctly he's also written in the past about being with ****d girls. he seems a pretty twisted one, and i'm surprised jackson's let some of his stuff stay up.

[Rubber Nursey]

I don't think I could. Honestly. That lot in that section are obviously seriously fucked up individuals. If I ever get to America, I'll be sure to avoid Wisconsin.

[Rolly Polly]

I beg to differ, no looney's down here in Miami.

[Freeler]

rn:),

"[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), regardless of whether the woman is a sex worker or not".
in some legal entities it is not [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) when any kind of 'general consent' is given, like accepting payment or being the [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126)'s lawfully married wife.
(don't worry, i agree 100% with the statement, regardless of the law.)
otoh i thought is was quite funny when a burglar who took advantage of a woman he found sleeping after entering her bedroom was found not guilty of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). the most horrible judge ruled that eventho no consent was given, it wasn't [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) because the sleeping beauty didn't complain about it.

so, it seems you're only save as long as you:
- do not accept payments for sex*
- are not married
- never sleep

* women of the world: please disregard this rule - it would render this forum purposeless!

"it's filthy fucks (etc)". eventho i agree on that one as well:), i did not expect this kind of talk from you after the lessons your momma told'ya about being nice... very disappointing:(!

[Sinanju Master]

I just read that guy's report from Milwaukee and I wouldn't be surprised if he were also into necrophilia. He went WAAAAAY over the line and it's stuff like THAT that feminazi's use to demonize us. He just set us back to the Stone Age, hair-dragging and all.

[Rubber Nursey]

I'm sorry - I won't hold all of Wisconsin responsible for the behaviour of that small group of excrement.

You shouldn't have told me, DH. You know what women are like. "Now you won't open the box, will you Pandora...?"

I just spent the last half hour reading that section and I really feel like I need to throw up. Why are we even sitting here discussing the 'morality' of prostitution, when people as AMORAL as that exist amongst us?? Having sex for money simply doesn't compare to that sort of sickness, on the scale of immorality.

[Rubber Nursey]

Hey Freeler. :)

Ok, I know that sort of language is not 'becoming' for a lady. But I am FURIOUS. I really am. People swear all the time in this forum, especially when they're angry - and I may be a woman, but I'm still only human. There is no four letter word that could adequately describe how sick I think that lot are.

(PS. I just edited the other post for you)

[Joe Zop]

freeler, there's also the case in texas several years back, where a woman about to be raped begged her [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126) to wear a condom as she was afraid of getting aids on top of the [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). the original grand jury refused to indict the guy because they felt this implied consent.

rn, we all know there are bad sides to prostitution on both ends of the equation, and bad people out there. we've been discussing that here only recently. these posts demonstrate more of the same.

i never cared much for milwaukee when i visited, even though i'm a working-class city guy, and this certainly gives me another reason. i'm equally disgusted by the "she got drunk so she deserved what she got" posts from the bystanders.

[Rolly Polly]

joe,

i was also baffled with the milwaukee peanut gallery's responses. one guy went as far as to say "we need more mongers like you", which was rather disturbing.

truth be told, i'm 99% sure that post was bull shit. he seems to claim he did anal ([CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)) uncovered with a strange drunk women. i guess some people don't have a concern in the world about std's, but it's more likely he is making up stories to suppliment his otherwise pathetic life.

[Pokey]

i agree the wisconsin story is replusive and probably made up, but interesting reading. [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)? no jury you convict this person for picking up a passed out street worker in a red light district, then take her to a room to ravage her body.

there is a thing called personal responsibility, she had a duty to herself to use reasonable care in such as area. if i was in the same area and got stinking drunk and was robbed and beat up would anyone really care? wisconsin guy, is only guilty of being cheap, he should have left a few bucks to the sw.

rn says:
"having a duty of care means that a sex worker can be held accountable if she was to knowingly pass on an std to a client - hence regular testing is encouraged (and freely undertaken) for a sex worker's own good, rather than trying to enforce mandatory testing. sex workers - even street workers - can pay tax, demand workers rights, charge clients with assault, etc, because they are not committing a criminal act."

i have a real problem with rn's regular testing "encouraged" if prostitution is going to be allowed freely in the world testing must be " mandatory" if we allow what rn wants girls with aids, and open herpes sores could be allowed to work.

i could just hear rn now, " if the girl has to be mandatory tested, what about the customer.' i think it is the customer who should be "encouraged"

[Rolly Polly]

pokey,

you are not correct here, this is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) (assuming the scenario ever happened). he states himself that this was not a sw, but rather just a drunk chick.
went out to waukesha saturday night. found one downtown, drunk. not a sw, just a drunk. she was stinking drunk. she was early 20s, medium build, ok body.

[Joe Zop]

Pokey said, "If I was in the same area and got stinking drunk and was robbed and beat up would anyone really care?"

But regardless of whether or not anyone would really care, wouldn't it still be robbery and assault? And if we were talking about a drunk streetwalker rather than you, wouldn't it still be robbery and assault? How is sexual somehow different than regular assault?

I don't understand your logic here.

Rolly Poly, Dickhead, I sure how you're right that it's all bullshit. But if it is fiction passing itself off as fact it has no place on this forum, and if it isn't it equally has no place.

[Rolly Polly]

I had to scroll down for a second becuase I thought you were calling me dickhead...... :)

I guess you wouldn't have been the first. :/

[Pokey]

my mistake, i didn't know she wasn't a street walker. so i guess it is [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). but, lets say she was a prostitutes, and this guy didn't put anything into her drink: would it be [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)? techinically, it would be [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), and i agree that yes a prostitute can be raped.

it doesn't matter if a few in the minority here believe she was raped and this guy should be punished. no jury in this country would convict this guy. do you jz really think this guy would get convicted and go to jail, after seeing the case against kobe bryant fall apart. come on, you of all people being an ex-cop after finding this women would just shake your head and tell her to go home.

i go to mexico all the time and it's a very dangerous place with muggers allways looking for drunk americans to assult and rob. if i'm stupid enought to get real drunk, and i get rolled, it would be a crime but i would also be partially to blame. if i got rolled by a rich kid out for fun in san diego, and later sued him in civil count; my damage reward would be reduced by the judge, because i shared parial blame-this happens all the time.

by the way, we had a case like this in orange county,california, where this little 16 year old ho, for lack of a better term, and this describes her. she was drunk, and gang raped and filmed by other kids and young adults, one being the son of a undersheriff.
guess what happened?

[Sporadic]

pokey:
if i'm stupid enought to get real drunk, and i get rolled, it would be a crime but i would also be partially to blame. i do not think your example is truly valid. opportunity is not an excuse. rolling a drunk is just as wrong as [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) someone.

i have had a couple of experiences where things just did not work out with a provider. her fault? my fault? who knows. in those cases, since i am not just looking for an orgasm (all those blessed with hands can usually achieve one of those with no assistance) but an enjoyable "experience," i just showed the provider the door.

did i lose some money? yes. was it important enough to [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) someone? no.

[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with violence and domination. if we face facts here, any gent who spends anything other than disposable income on the hobby is making a serious mistake.

imho we are talking about de-humanizing our relationship (however short) when we start to consider our provider as anything less than a thinking, feeling human being.

business, yes. criminal? only if you make it so.

cheers,

sporadic

[Your Guest]

Dear RN,

You write

"I'd say you're right about the booze - the laws in most States say that a brothel can't have a liquor license and a liquor licensed venue can't offer prostitution. But I guess if you're an illegal brothel or you're selling booze without a liquor license, the other laws probably don't really apply"

That is the trouble when things are considered criminal, I get your point RN about decriminalisation. Decriminalisation would precede legalisation. Your statement merely illustrates what I have been saying all along, once you smear an activity as criminal, criminals rush to get a toe hold, it gets beyond the ambit of the law and a centre for every thing criminal for you hang only once for however many murders you do.

Yogesh

[Joe Zop]

well said, sporadic.

pokey, as i said in the american women thread, what happened in the kobe bryant case only shows again that if you've got enough money and can hire enough lawyers who will do absolutely anything to win, then you will win. i don't think it's a surprise to anyone here or anywhere in the world that if you're rich or have influence you can buy your way out of trouble.

but the fact that justice is not perfect is hardly the same thing as saying something was or was not a crime or saying something's not worth pursuing. saying it's not a crime or somehow doesn't count unless someone can be convicted is certainly not true from the victim's perspective. and victims of crimes with mitigating circumstances are still victims, and generally go through enough self-recrimination to be more than enough punishment, not to mention whatever they've suffered from the crime itself. (and civil court's a very different thing than criminal court -- mitigation in criminal court might get you pled down of even off the hook with a jury, but it doesn't wipe away guilt.)

given that lookingforlefty appears to also have all manner of diseases, based on his postings, i suppose this woman deserves the death sentence of aids in addition to being raped because she was stupid enough to get drunk in a public place.

look, i agree that not only do you need to be unlucky to be a victim of a crime it also helps to be foolish to one or another degree. but the fact that your victim was foolish isn't much of a defense. if this woman came to me as a cop i'd have a [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) kit done, i'd take her statement, i'd go the the room and gather whatever physical evidence might still be there, i'd check with the desk clerk to look to find out who rented the room, get his story, and i'd sure as hell look to put his ass in jail. now, the prosecutor might decide this would be hard to convict on, but not only is that his call, it's different from whether or not i, as a cop, would feel a crime took place and what i'd look to do with the perpetrator all that i could. at the very least, he'd end up suffering arrest and public humiliation.

as a cop, i'd want my community to be safe for ordinary citizens even during the times they were not being as careful as possible. and i'd expect people to do the same for me -- since none of us is always smart or on guard -- as that's what building a good community is all about.

[Your Guest]

Dear Folks,

I gleaned this from one of the posts, , I think it would interest you, (I have capitalised as a devise to highlight)

Location India>Banglore, dated 14-8-2004, posted by Guru72

Second time it was disastrous (same rate but no tips). I am not sure what was wrong with the girl ; She was totally ASLEEP all the time from the moment she entered my car. With difficully she climbed out of the car, walked into the room and COLLAPSED on the bed. I tried to wake her up many times in the night but she WOULDN'T wake up. Finally I ended up MASTRUBATING. I haven't tried it again as I don't get the opportunity to be alone much

and a comment

Location India>Banglore, dated 22-8-2004, posted by Robert Lee

You should have SCREWED her while she was SLEEPING. If you were hard enough to masturbate you were hard enough to get her.

I would have. You paid money and she went to sleep. Man! She would have a sore twat and cum spots all over her when she woke up

Yogesh

[Pokey]

sporadic, ugh? i don't understand you, let me go drink a few beers because it's hot here in so cal today. maybe when i come back and read it again it will make more sense to me.

i was just about to leave and get a few beers, but jz had to jump in here again. now i'll have to re read what he said in the american women forum, because i think i briefly saw it the first time.

look, i believe kobe was guilty, but i also believe that women didn't carry herself very well, having sex with two other guys within the time frame that she was raped. kobe, had money but he was still a black man, and if that expert jury consultant for the prosecution, her name excapes me now, but she worked for oj's team. she would have picked people like you jz, sporadic, and right-wingers who use to live in the south, and you guys would have convicted kobe.

you would only be wasting you time gathering evidence for this women even if she wasn't a working girl. no jury would convict her, but if you were a real cop, you would sweat the guy, and make him sign a confession, and then get a public defender to cop a plea for the guy.

hey, guys, girls, don't attack me. i don't make the rules, i just play by the rules or bend them a little.

now, can i go out and drink my beer now.

[Mp Stik]

Wow, this is a great thread. I have lurked for a few months and this is my first post. As someone from Wisconsin, I too have doubted the accuracy of Lefty's posts. Please trust that the vast majority of Wisconsin mongers have nothing in common with how Lefty claims to act.

I have no experience with SW, but way too much with Internet Escorts.

I'll go back to browsing and lurking until I have something of substance to contribute.

[My Alias]

the lookingforlefty post was the one that prompted my initial comment that started this thread. there's been a lot of discussion, i had to scroll a couple of pages just for the last 12 hours of action.

anyway, i sent jackson a message to monitor lefty's posts because this isn't the first one of his that bordered on [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)/sexual assault. i agree, we don't need mongers with this attitude. it makes it worse for all of us. i'd be willing to bet that lefty doesn't have any sisters, because if he did i'd hope his attitude toward women would be different.

just to give you an update, i've received a couple of pms from various mongers, not lefty, asking why i'm dumping on the guy who provides the board with some of "the most entertaining and interesting posts".

yes, lefty writes some interesting posts. but that doesn't give him the right to glorify sexual assault on this board. i remember 30 years ago reading about a man who was convicted for [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) his wife. even if there's implied consent because a couple is man-and-wife or monger-and-sw, there are still certain boundaries that must be respected. if this was a frat boy taking advantage of a girl who got drunk at a frat party, you can be sure the frat boy would be charged with sexual assault.

[My Alias]

Here are some definitions and facts about sexual assault from a University of Wisconsin-Whitewater study, http://www.uww.edu/stdRsces/SART/facts.htm

[My Alias]

Here are legal descriptions of sexual assault from the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse student handbook, http://www.uwlax.edu/StudentLife/sa.html I'm using Wisconsin sources because these links also are being posted on the Milwaukee board.

[Rubber Nursey]

usually when i get carried away at night i regret it in the morning. this morning i don't. i am still so very angry with those guys on so many levels.

i'm angry with the guy who made the original posts for, as oosikman rightly puts it, 'glorifying sexual assault' (whether the posts are fact or some sort of sick fiction is irrelevant to me). but to tell the truth, i'm even more disgusted by the support this person has been getting from his fellow posters - including comments like "all women are sluts and they deserve everything they get" and in this section today, "no jury you convict this person for picking up a passed out street worker in a red light district, then take her to a room to ravage her body". a number of men said that it was the woman's fault for being drunk. would they say the same thing if they passed out drunk and some gay guy with a 10-inch schlong helped himself to their backside???

worst of all, they are justifying these sorts of posts by saying that this is a 'monger forum', which makes every single one of you look bad to anyone from the 'outside world' looking in. this is a monger forum and the [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or sexual abuse of women has nothing whatsoever to do with mongering. i'm angry that he would risk casting a slur on the wsgforum - a place that a lot of us love and respect.

and while i'm at it, lets not forget that the [CodeWord124] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124) that this particular man speaks of, are in fact sodomy. the anus is not like a vagina - it doesn't really stretch to accommodate a penis, especially without lubricant and total relaxation of the woman's muscles. having her fighting against him makes it even worse. does he even care how much internal damage an attack like that can do? not to mention the lasting effects from his diseased penis.

i know i'm largely preaching to the converted in this section, but you know what i'm like - i just gotta get it out. :)

[Member #2001]

i believe that this forum should be about geting laid for free or by paying for it and not about the legal degrees of seperation between [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and mongering. its not important to discuss it on this board.

i sure do not want to see any thread be destroyed by a flame war. just look at the thailand board a few months ago and see what was going on over there. it was pretty sad.

its silly flaming someone else here for writing his only personal experences about picking up women, when we all come here to look where we can break the law by looking for pussy and paying for it. with the exceptions of a few places in the world prostitution and steetwalking is illegal.

isnt the purpose of this site is really helping the monger to break the law and writing about it here? when i travel, and i want to get laid without haveing to romance and spending alot of money, time, and effort on a girl over the corse of a week, i can go to this website and see where the action is in the city i am in. or maybe i just want to check out a new hotspot that i overlooked in my city.

i also share my eperence here and i would like to think that i could do it without any fear of retrabution or fear of having someone jump on my ass because they did not like what i had to say.

[Warpig2000]

Oosikman, just wanted to add my voice of public approval to your challenging the posts of Lookingforlefty.

I'm generally open to just about any post about consensual sexual activity between adults that is within the guidelines of this board. Lefty crossed a line that should never be crossed, one that I personally think common sense should make an off-limits place to go in this online community- to force oneself on another human being without their consent. I read the same posts earlier and unfortunately did not have the balls to stand up and say something because Milwaukee was 'not my turf' and Lefty seemed to be a popular voice on his board. Well, I was wrong.
We need to confront such behaviour on this board, and let others know that it is NOT okay and not to be tolerated.

[Gorilla69]

i believe that there is a sort of bond between a true "monger" and the objects of his desire, a sort of trust and contract that we should try to follow. regardless of her state, drunk, high, broke, out cold, we should try to treat these women with a modicum of respect. they are human beings and there, but for the grace of god, my daughter could be. i never have hurt, hit or forced a sw to do anything she did not want to do. most of the time i have treated them like people and have been treated the same way in return, getting good service in return.

no, it has not always been returned. i was ripped off more than once, but for the most part the girls and i had a good time and i reciprocated whenever i could, giving her a good release.

with that in mind, this talk about [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) or sodomizing these women while they are drunk or out cold is nothing more than a crime, pure and simple. yes, you could be convicted, despite peotestations to the contrary. i hope jackson bans your sorry ass.

[Rubber Nursey]

member #2001:

"i believe that this forum should be about geting laid for free or by paying for it and not about the legal degrees of seperation between [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and mongering. its not important to discuss it on this board".

with all due respect, the degrees of separation between [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and mongering and other similar topics, are exactly the sort of thing that this particular section was created for. and as much as i do feel like i want to 'jump on that guys ass' - i have put my complaints in this section rather than the milwaukee section a) because like warpig said, it's not my turf and i don't feel like i have a right to barge in there and have my say, and b) i would rather have a rational discussion on the whole issue of assault vs consent in here, than go to the other section and inevitably start a flame war.

please also note that i haven't put my complaints to jackson, either. i may despise what those men have said, but until they're told otherwise, i guess they have the right to say it. the only person who can make that decision is jackson.

[Dickhead]

assume the following fact pattern: monger picks up hooker and they come to a normal arrangement for her to come to his home and have sex in exchange for money. once at the home, monger pays in advance. hooker drinks heavily and passes out. monger, having paid for sex, fucks her while she is passed out.

[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or not?

[Prokofiev]

Or how about this . . .

Once at the home, monger pays in advance. Monger drinks heavily and passes out. Monger, having paid for sex, gets none and woman leaves.

Robbery or not?

. . . It's a joke

[Dickhead]

i think not robbery because of the money value of time. that fact pattern is more like me saying hey come paint my house and i will have the paint ready and you get there and i don't have any paint. i need to then pay you for your commuting time.

however if monger has paid for an hour then i think hooker needs to wait an hour to see if he wakes up. sucking his dick while he is passed out would be above and beyond the call of duty but probably much appreciated by the average drunk and passed out monger. but would that be [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)?

if an unconscious person has an orgasm, does a tree fall in the forest?

[Rubber Nursey]

i know you probably weren't being serious, but i'll give my 2 cents anyway. in my opinion - yes, to both of you.

a hooker agrees to have sex with the client, presumably under the unspoken understanding that she will be awake for said sex. if she passes out, the conditions of that 'verbal contract' have changed and the contract should be no longer valid. plus in the eyes of most laws, someone passed out does not have the capacity to give consent. i would think it would work the same way if the worker passed out half way through having sex. i know all of our laws are different, but in general it usually becomes [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) as soon as consent is withdrawn. if an unconscious person is unable to give consent, then her consent was withdrawn as soon as she passed out.

and any hooker worth her salt should leave the money behind in a situation like proko described (minus payment for services already rendered, if any, including her driver). if she takes more than she was entitled to, then yes, i think it's robbery.

however, i still don't think you can really compare the robbery of a passed out person, with the [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and/or sodomy of a passed out person.

[Dickhead]

In my fact pattern, consent was given before hooker passed out. In the US, assuming legality of purpose which of course it would not be, consent could not then be withdrawn after the contract was formed.

Me personally, I would not fuck the hooker under these passed-out conditions. I'd just take the money back out of her purse.

[Rubber Nursey]

But was consent really given? She gave her consent to have sex with you - but did she at any point add "Oh, and if I fall asleep while you're on the job, just keep on going. I'd hate for you to not get your money's worth"? ;)

[Sporadic]

pokey
hey, guys, girls, don't attack me. i don't make the rules, i just play by the rules or bend them a little.no attack intended towards you, or for that matter, anyone else.

if i did not make myself sufficiently clear, i apologize.

i was trying to offer the opinion that being "less than prudent" may not be a good idea, but it hardly offers a mugger an excuse to mug you.

by the same token, a provider who is in no position to defend themselves, be it drunk or passed out in a hotel room or whatever, is no "invitation" for [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or assault.

that he/she was "asking for it" is really not acceptable. imho not very many people want to be assaulted or mugged or raped.

cheers,

sporadic

[Joe Zop]

dickhead, in my book it's still [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), though more borderline, as even though there seems to be consent implied by the contractual arrangement, a person must be capable of withdrawing consent as well as giving it. giving consent to having sex doesn't extend consent to all sexual acts, and a person has the opportunity to change their mind at any time if, for example, they feel things are getting too rough.

but most of all as i understand the law it's simple and absolute -- in order for there to be consent, the person must be capable of knowingly giving and withdrawing it. children, those unconscious, and those in stupors (as, for example, via gbh) are incapable of giving it.


member #2001, are you saying we're to make utterly no distinctions and the only bottom line is getting "laid without haveing to romance and spending alot of money, time, and effort on a girl" no matter what the circumstances? if that's the case then by extension this board could have a section where mongers can set up wilding or [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) parties, right? if we're to completely ignore legal or moral lines then why wouldn't that be ok? shoot, we can all save money by strangling our sex workers after we're done as well...

there is only one kind of law posters here as a whole advocate breaking -- it's paid sex being illegal.

this thread is about morality -- it's the single most appropriate place on this forum to have a discussion such as this one. and i'll note that this discussion has been held in an adult way -- no one's here setting up lynch mobs or tracking someone down and shouting "[CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126)" every time the guy posts. yes, there is outrage, but i've seen no flames or threats of personal retribution.

as a longtime poster in the thai section, i was immensely distressed by the long and vitriolic flame war there, but that doesn't mean anything should go on wsg. rn has nailed it -- this kind of thing makes all of us look bad and simply provides ammunition to those who argue that p4p leads to an inevitable joyride down the moral slope.

i'm not some out-of-control [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126) and i immensely dislike being lumped in with someone who is out mistreating and [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) women in the same way i dislike being lumped in with ****s who go hunting for children they can pay to have sex with. and i'll be damned if i will willingly surrender my ability to object to such behavior because it might keep you or someone else from posting about such experiences.

[Pokey]

i agree with jz, this is a opinion forum and this is the place to discuss if it's [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or not. in most newpapers they have opinion pages, and they are as bad or even worst then anything written here.

i'm not condoning what lefty did, if fact i said i didn't believe it.
i am simply stating an opinion that no jury would convict him, and most da.s would throw this case out if she was a street walker or normal women who happens to be in a red light district.

does anyone disagree that lefty would walk? dh, would walk too if he fucked that passed out sex worker. i didn't see where she withdrew her consent. it seems to be it was a express and implied verbal contract.

if some people want to get hot and bothered over a made up story and reactions to it, so be it.

you know what i still find shocking, and i know it's no joke: that rn, is against mandatory aids/std testing for sex workers. she wants to make is strictly voluntary.( talk about all the upside, with no downside for her friends)

[Rubber Nursey]

Nobody else is shocked, Pokey. Most people here know that I don't support mandatory testing and they also know why, so you can keep repeating it until the cows come home, but nobody's listening. I know you're just trying to dent my character by saying that I supposedly want 'diseased' women working in the industry - just like when you accused me of lying about my drug use (which, I repeat, I have never done) and all the other times that you've tried to make me out to look like a liar or a fool.

I'm not losing any sleep over the fact that you think I'm just an uneducated wh*re. And for all I care, you can keep making wildy incorrect assertions about my character and my motivations - because the people that really matter to me in this forum already know what's true and what's not. I was angry with your posts for a while there, but now I'm just bored with them. As Joe said to Yogesh recently - consider me disengaged.

[PsyberZombie]

pokey writes =


" i'm not condoning what lefty did, if fact i said i didn't believe it.
i am simply stating an opinion that no jury would convict him, and most da.s would throw this case out if she was a street walker or normal women who happens to be in a red light district.

does anyone disagree that lefty would walk? "

in fact , a large per·centage of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) claims are actually "failure to pay"

the usual scenario is that the guy pays the chick for sex ; then takes the money back when he's done

she then calls the cops with a description of you and your vehicle [ including your plate number ] and claims you abducted her at knife·point and forced her to blow you

you'll definitely get arrested ; but will you get convicted ??

the kobe case aside = her 35 prostitution arrests will not be admissable in most states

but even if you walk because she never showed up in court = yer gonna have a rap sheet now that shows you were once arrested for kidnapping and first degree sexual assault

... and in this day and age , where employers and land·lords run credit and criminal checks on potential employees or tenants , this is gonna complicate your life to no end

[Sporadic]

Folks,

If someone is convicted or not has little or nothing to do with the morality of the situation. If you take back your money (without force obviously) it may technically be theft, but you may feel justified since no service was rendered.

On the other hand, extracting your "contracted service" from someone unwilling or unable to consent is, IMHO just plain wrong. Sex work is intimate in a way that simple goods-for-compensation transactions will never be. We are not talking about a head of lettuce here.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rubber Nursey]

I'll get yelled at for this, but as far as I can see, 'Failure to Pay' is a crime. At best, it's theft. At worst, it's coercing someone into having sex by fraudulent means. Perhaps even (in moral terms, probably not in law) sexual assault. She only gave consent to have sex in exchange for payment - she didn't consent to having sex for nothing.

I think street workers having the guts to take those clients to court, is a fabulous thing. The fact that they have to do it by lying about the offence - rather than coming straight out and saying he failed to pay for services rendered - is a matter you'd have to take up with Government and law enforcement.

[Rubber Nursey]

Sporadic - I think I wanna have your babies... :)

[My Alias]

Regarding the questions about what is ethical if an adult service provider got drunk with a monger and that monger decided he'd paid for sex, so went ahead and did it to her even though she was unconscious. I'd call that sexual assault, even though there may have been a previous agreement.

What prompts this thought is the tagline on a lot of Internet sites for escorts that basically says that you are buying time and company only and are not buying sex. The escorts put this line on the Web site to protect themselves from LE, because in many communities selling sex is illegal but there's no issue with selling time and company. Then, if sex happens (as it frequently does), it's because the escort liked the monger and decided to put out for him.

[My Alias]

Also, Member #2001 made a comment about this board encouraging people to break the law by paying for sex and how is that different than the alleged sexual assault we've been discussing. I see a major difference.

Most of the members of this board are of the opinion that the selling of sexual favors should not be a crime because most times the buyer and the seller are consenting adults. So, while mongering may be a crime in many communities it is essentially a harmless interaction between two people and the laws need to be changed. The act of sexual assault, though, is taking something by force and most legal experts classify sexual assaults as violent crimes rather than crimes of passion.

[Rolly Polly]

i never have, nor ever will, pick up a drunk sw because of this type of situation. i have had the opportunity many times to pick up have passed out sw's, but chose to drive on.

dickhead, under your fact patern, i would not attack the guy for going through with the dead, but like yourself i would not do it.

the truth is that lefty's situation was not a pay for play scenario and he clearly states that. he picked up a drunk chick that was not a sw with the intention of [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) her.

[Rock Dog]

This report will probably get buried WAYYYY back since this forum is red hot right now but here goes anyways.

Who would want to do it with a woman (SW or not) who was that drunk anyways. The stinky breath alone would be such a turn-off for me.

If I'm paying for it, I want to be having some fun, not babysitting some passed out skank who's probably going to puke all over my car. I can see it now, you get her home, take off her clothes and that's when you discover she's pissed herself.

What a turn-on (sarcasm).

Rock

[Cash Works]

well, i read lefty's post, was rather offended by it left my own post on the milwaukee board about my opinion of him based on his own "confession". after coming back here and reading the posts here, you folks may feel that i was out of line - so be it. but i can't be nearly as out of line as lefty - even if he made up the entire story.

a lot of people were saying it's her fault for drinking too much. what if somebody spiked her drink? rufis or rohipnol (spelling?) or whatever that "date [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)" drug is called could have been slipped in her drink & she may have been able to get away from the guys who spiked her drink, only to pull over when she realized she was too wasted to drive - then got picked up by lefty the [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126) when she was too incoherent to put up a fight or even realize what was going on. whether lefty spiked her drink, or somebody else spiked it or even if she just drank too much on her own - she didn't deserve what lefty did to her in that motel room.

rn - i applaud you! i was going to add the "what if a guy was passed out drunk, robbed and butt fucked" but you beat me to it. as for payment, early on in my mongering career, i was always told that "if you don't pay yer wh*re, yer gonna bring bad luck on all yer mates" so, yeah, if you don't pay, it's a crime, or at best, you're bringing bad luck on yourself and all your mongering buddies.

i also managed to read the "scarlett alliance objectives". they seem reasonable to me, but i'm sure that once the politicians get hold of things and try to legislate - they'll botch the job.

pokey - i would hope that he would be convicted in any court in the usa - at no point in lefty's post did he say that she implied consent - he picked her up when she was incoherent, with the intention of [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) her when she was completely passed out.

dickhead - i believe that it's still [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), unfortunately though, in the usa it may be hard to convict the monger due to general public opinion of streetwalkers. at best, it would be extremely bad taste to go through with the deed even after the money had changed hands because she was passed out. wait for her to wake up & demand a refund. i really can't see the appeal of having sex with a corpselike woman - you'd be better off having a wank.

profkiev - i'd say that it's the mongers fault for passing out. he's paid her for her time - if she didn't go with him, she could have been picked up by somebody who was sober. he chose to imbibe so much that he was unable to stay conscious and do the deed. she's entitled to take the money he paid her (no more) and leave because she came back with him intending to fulfill her end of the deal. though, i agree that it would be nice if she stuck around to see if he wakes up - i wouldn't hold her to it though.

cw

[Rubber Nursey]

i went back a couple of days again and found another post from the virgin terry. i'll re-post his question to me here so you don't have to go back and find it.

"rn, your responses to my questions haven't cleared up my confusion over women and sex. what i mean is, you admit that some clients are unattractive in appearance, yet great lovers. on the other hand, you've also admitted in the past to having had horrible experience with at least one guy you found attractive enough to pick up for sex for pleasure, only to get raped for your trouble when this guy figured he could do whatever he pleased once given permission one time. the obvious thought or question that comes to my mind is: why not always get paid for sex, given that customers are often better lovers, while 'attractive' non-customers turn out to be asshole abusers? if i could get paid for sex and pleasured simultaneously, while discovering that those who don't pay are actually less respectful, i think it would be an easy choice to kill 2 birds with one stone by having both my financial and sexual needs attended to in this way. in the past you've also complained about lack of sex, when not working! why don't you quit?"

--why not always get paid for sex, given that customers are often better lovers, while 'attractive' non-customers turn out to be asshole abusers?--

that's stretching it a bit, terry. yes, clients were often good lovers. but often they were pretty ordinary lovers. and just as often, they were truly "oh my god, when is this ever going to end?' lovers! and yes, i've had some really crappy experiences with some of the men in my private life. but i've been given some glorious moments of pure ecstasy as well.

fact is, again it comes down to motivation. if i want to earn a bit of money, i'll go do a day in a brothel. but if i want to have sex with someone who i like (and more importantly, likes me) money will most certainly not enter into it. i was a sex worker for money, not for sex. that the sex was often good was just a bonus - a fringe benefit, if you will.

in all honesty, an offer of money from a potential sex partner would totally ruin it. really - i would switch straight back to worker mode at the sight of the cash and any 'personal' attraction would be lost. a 'sexual' attraction may still be there, but that would be it. sex was my job. if the personal and emotional boundaries were not clearly defined in my head, there would be no difference between sex for work and sex for pleasure. like a mechanic who never fixes his own car, or a chef who buys mcdonalds on his way home, i would risk losing any enjoyment of real, intimate, just for the sake of love or passion sex, if i didn't make a distinction between work and my personal life.

[Rubber Nursey]

While I'm here, can I just take this chance to say 'WELCOME' to all the newbies - and the regulars who usually live elsewhere on the board - who have joined us in the past few days. I know a lot of you new guys are feeling frustrated by your posts appearing late, but don't panic - we do go back and find them. So keep posting! :)

[Joe Zop]

rn, i'm not going to yell, but i'm going to disagree. while i do agree that sw have to have serious guts to go to the police in the case of non-payment, i disagree that it's somehow ok to pass on it being called [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).

in the precise same way that sex workers are looked at with a specific degree of societal disdain -- something i agree with you should change -- so too are [CodeWord127] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord127). even more radically. being labeled as a [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126) is far different than being labeled a thief, and theft of services is a very different scenario than [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). (there are also aspects of degree -- being labeled an armed robber is worse than bad as being labeled a pickpocket.)

i don't see how you can have it both ways: if sex workers are to be treated as service providers in the same way as other professions, then workers and customers who agree to a p4p scenario are no different than a physical therapist and a client agreeing to a session. i believe you've used this precise argument and analogy before yourself. if a client fails to pay a physical therapist it is a broken contract and theft of services. it is not assault, despite the fact the therapist used their body as part of the work. (note that i am making a very clear distinction between this and taking services by force and without consent.)

you can argue over whether consent was given under false pretenses, in the same way a dangled promise of marriage that's withdrawn is used to gain consent, but that's fraud and not [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) as the bottom line is that the sex itself was not non-consensual. that is the bright and important line on sexual assault and to wave your hands at it -- take it up with your government -- weakens your overall position, as you're then making pokey's "what's real" argument.

[Rubber Nursey]

joe, i'm gonna take some of that back -- i must have read too many posts at once and all i had in my head was the 'held at knifepoint' bit. not that accusing someone of that is a good thing either, but you're right - it's much worse to accuse someone of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) if they didn't do it. but i wasn't really focusing on the actual false accusations anyway - only the reasoning behind them.

as for the other bit of my post - i used the word 'sexual assault' instead of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), on purpose. i just feel that if you have sex with a sex worker, knowing full well you have no intention of paying her when the service is over, it is a form of sexual assault. i'm not saying that the law would recognise it as such; nor am i asking them to. i'm just saying that *i* consider it sexual assault. for example, with your comparison to a physical therapist - sure, they have committed time and labour and skill to a job that they haven't been paid for. but...and maybe this is just me being too close to the subject...i just can't compare that to having someone's penis entering your body, risking disease and pregnancy and jail time, and then having that man walk away with a smirk on his face, holding your money in his hand.

i do applaud the street workers for having the guts to complain about those clients, but i really didn't mean to make it sound like i was excusing them for making up offences. i was just pointing out that they wouldn't feel they had to lie about it, if the laws protected them properly.

---just added this on: although i do believe that non-payment of services should probably be prosecuted as theft, the fact that the product 'stolen' is not legally able to be sold, leaves only the sexual element to prosecute with.

[Rubber Nursey]

Actually, I'm not going to take it back. I'm just going to clarify that I was only really thinking about the fact that girls were lying, rather than what they were lying about.

See - now you've confused me! :) You made me look at my post from a completely different angle from which it was written, and I do agree that it comes across badly from your angle. That wasn't really my intention.

[Joe Zop]

well, i understand your point regarding the intimacy aspect, but i'd still see it more as something like sexual robbery rather than assault. if a sex worker in engaged in sexual acts with the understanding that payment is involved, and consents to that arrangement, i don't see how the acts involved (penetration, risks, etc.) somehow change after the fact because payment is withheld or disappears. if i tell someone i love them and we have sex, and they figure out later i was just saying that to get into their pants, it means i'm a cad, but not a [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126). there was consent or there wasn't, there was thereby "force" or there wasn't, which is the line on sexual assault or [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123). the context does absolutely change, but not the acts themselves. i'm obviously not arguing that a crime hasn't occurred in this case -- one has -- only that which one it is does make a difference. and i understand what you're saying about the thing being stolen not legally being able to be sold, but time for companionship can certainly be sold, and that was clearly stolen.

but it's also a rather difficult position to defend that something deserves to be treated like all other work except when it doesn't, as if you can legitimately make that argument, so can your opponents. if you want to argue that the act of sex is special and therefore special considerations should enter in, then you're essentially legitimizing your opponents' ability to argue the same thing -- that the act of sex is special and therefore this shouldn't be treated like any other profession. (speaking here from a logical argument perspective.) it's legitimate to argue that there are unique aspects to the work, such as the need to protect minors or health issues, but saying at its core it's special undermines your overall argument.

[Rubber Nursey]

You always make me think about things too deeply, Joe. :) I was thinking about the sexual assault aspect, and I think I've just realised the reason why I see it more that way than you guys do.

I've been stiffed before - more than once. We all have at some time. The thing is, when it happens it doesn't feel like a 'theft'. The sort of guy who would stiff a girl is not normally the sort of guy who makes it an 'enjoyable' sex session. In fact (as you would expect) they are usually rude, arrogant misogynists who treat you badly and make you feel degraded through the whole session.

So when they don't pay you - or pay you less than they should have - the feeling is overwhelmingly similar to that of being sexually assaulted. You've suffered all through the hour, feeling worthless and dirty, and in that sort of booking the only thing that stops you hating yourself for what you're doing, is knowing you're getting paid for it. And then you don't get paid. You feel used and degraded and angry - not to mention stupid.

Actually, it's probably a lot to do with what I just described in my post for Terry - the money changes the whole dynamic of the exchange. With the money, you're doing a job. Without the money, you're just a dirty slag having nasty sex with a guy who doesn't even like you.

I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me. I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from.

[Rubber Nursey]

I don't believe the act of sex is special - I think the occupation has special considerations, in the same way that other occupations have special considerations. For example, many employees get paid 'danger money' because their jobs put their health and safety at risk. When I was in social services, higher than normal holiday allowances and fully paid counselling sessions came with my employment package, due to the increased risk of burnout. Federal agents and SAS soldiers have their identities protected. Politicians get ridiculously large superannuation payouts because the chances of anyone ever employing the lying, thieving thugs again is slim to none. :)

[Joe Zop]

Sorry to make you think too deeply RN! :) (I'll refrain from inserting an obvious stereotypical comment here lest my humor be misinterpreted by others.)

Let me suggest that your sense on this in some ways is congruent the some of outrage you find in the American Women section -- it's a "I went through all that and got jobbed?" aspect.

And I'll also note that your sense is also similar to what clients can have after a rushed or rip-off session -- the worker ends up not being a particular nice person, doesn't give a damn about your pleasure or satisfaction, clearly has contempt for you and is just about getting as much of your money as quickly as possible, says, "why haven't you come yet" two minutes into the session, and leaves impatiently with the exorbitant fee you've no doubt paid in anticipation of a superior session -- regardless of whether or not you've gotten any pleasure or even finished.

That's also degrading, you feel dirty and like a complete idiot, and it can feel like an assault -- but it isn't one.

[Joe Zop]

And again, I understand where you're coming from regarding special aspects of the occupation, and agree, but saying "I just can't compare that to having someone's penis entering your body" is a different kind of argument and is not really about risk, and that's the one I said I feel undermines things by arguing that having sex itself involved changes things.

And now I'll shut up about it all for a while!

[Rubber Nursey]

'but saying "i just can't compare that to having someone's penis entering your body" is a different kind of argument and is not really about risk'.

what i said was "i just can't compare that to having someone's penis entering your body, risking disease and pregnancy and jail time...". i don't know how jail time made it's way in there - i'm not blonde, honest! - but the penis entering the body thing was all about risk. getting paid for sex is, amongst other things, compensation for taking some pretty considerable health risks. danger money, if you will. of course, with condoms and the pill the risks are reduced, by skin to skin diseases are always a danger and condoms can break.

(from your last post) "if a sex worker is engaged in sexual acts with the understanding that payment is involved, and consents to that arrangement, i don't see how the acts involved (penetration, risks, etc.) somehow change after the fact because payment is withheld or disappears".

i don't think it changes. i guess i see it more that she has weighed the risks against the reward and given her consent on that basis. without the promise of reward, she wouldn't have consented.

i'm getting a bit far removed from the physical therapist thing now - let's just say that if sex work was legal and clients could be charged with theft or fraud, i personally believe that the punishment should be more severe than 'regular' theft because of the emotional trauma caused and the fact that the client put her health at risk.

sorry - i'm really being a pain tonight. :) and i totally understand that clients would feel the same after being ripped off. i can't abide that sort of behaviour by anyone, sex workers included.

[Pokey]

psyberzombie, good point, regarding [CodeWord124] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124) claims are actually "failer to pay". often times the sex worker will claim "[CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)" over a dispute over money. yes, some mongers are sons of bitches, who after paying a hooker, will try to take the money back from her for no other reason then because they are stronger.( after the lust goes away, they say why did i do that, and then take the money back; the money was for little jr's shoes.)

more often the monger has a legitimate excuse for not paying the hooker, because failure on her part of not living up to the verbal contract. this is why i always pay after fucking, or at least leave the money on the table but not allowing her to touch the money.

if the girl insists on the money first, i'll just say " get the fuck out of here". sometimes this will bring me problems if it's a escort service. she'll say something like you still have to pay me $150 for the agency fee. i'll say no, and then she'll say either i'll call the cops, hotel, or the driver. ( i sometimes carry my gun for such encounters with drivers. crowbars will work too)

in mexico, i know lots of mongers who constantly get ripped off by street workers, they promise everything and don't deliver.
some of the chicas will even go so far and say you went over the time limit, pay me again, or else i'll call the cops that you raped me. the cops are all too willing to go along with this for bribe money.

this is why i'm advocating where prostitution is legalized a computer database; where we as mongers can post complaints against the girls when they try to cheat us along with current sex license information.

[Joe Zop]

Gun? Crowbar? Man, Pokey, I'd definitely say we have different approaches to things!

[Rolly Polly]

i carry a gun as well, but i never ask for my money back. the gun is for my protection because i stroll the streets of miami and don't use the safer, but more expensive escort services.

if i'm not happy with the performance then i go about my business and take it as a loss and lesson learned. i don't know these chicks that i pick up so i am assuming the risk of getting a rip off artist or just a bad bj.

it's like investing in the commodities markets. there is a 90% or higher chance that you are going to loose all your money, but you are willing to take the risk because if you get the good one then you will have a smile on your face for a long time. if you are not aware of the risk or not willing to take the potential loss then get out of the game, but don't try and take your money back or [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) the girl because you didn't hedge you bets properly.

i'm a repeat customer and many of the miami chicks know me very well so i figure the girl who rips me off or rushes the job will not get my business again. i've even gone as far as to stop to explain to some of these chicks that i "cut off" the reason they will not get my business and they always beg for a second chance because they see how often i cruise the neighborhood for action. i never give second chances and i think because of my "reputation" with the miami sw's i rarely get a bad "date".

[Pokey]

Actually, I only used the gun five or six times as it's very risky to get caught with the gun. It's really only a metaphor to be prepared and try to anticipate hookers moves.

Lets say you're in a nice hotel for me it's usually Las Vegas but it could be anywhere; you don't want to jack-off, so you call for a escort. Lets then say she comes to your hotel in a bitchy mood and says give me $150 then will talk. I'll just get on the phone right there and tell the agency that this girl is a ulgy ***** and send me another one. At times you'll have no choice but give her the money after you agreed to everything.

What do you do if she now says, I have to go to my car before fucking me. I'd say, ok but leave the money, and I'm not above showing her I'm a crazy asshole, don't fuck with me attitute.
It works, rarely had I actually had to physically take the money from her. I have had asshole drivers actually try to get me to give him $150, just because I told the hooker to take a hike.

Rolly Polly, you need to be a better investor, losing 90% of your money, Wow! I too like the repeat customer thing with a nice young tight sex worker. This way you don't have to worry about money, getting ripped off, hiding your wallet or worst bad service.

The downside is sometimes the girls start clinging to you, and expect you to only fuck them and start telling you sob stories so you'll give them more money. When they start acting like that it's time to move on, besides, I just love fucking a variety of women, not just one or two.

[GettingTang]

Carrying a gun for mongering safety? Are you people mad in the head? This has bad news written all over it people.

Look, getting a bad date every now and then is just part of the cost of being a monger. Just write it off and move on! You can't go strong arming girls and making threats and fighting for money over lack of services. You do this and I can guarantee you nothing good will come of it.

I seriously question some of you people? A bad date from time to time is expected, in fact, it has to be expected, if you can't deal with this once in a while, then you should not be a monger at all. And carrying a gun, is nuts. If the cops pull up on you and find you horror mongering and packing a gun, you're in some serious shit! There is no reason you should ever need a gun. Stay away fro girls with pimps, do not go to "their location" and just use basic common sense. Idiots, packing guns for a car date.

Tang~!

[Joe Zop]

You know, Pokey, I've never had any particular trouble simply by asking the agency the fees and rules -- saying, "Ok, what if the woman doesn't meet my specifications or isn't the way you describe her?" If I don't like the options, I don't use the agency. If the woman comes to the door and changes the game, out she goes. If someone else shows up -- sometimes a "driver" will expect to wait in the hallway of lobby -- then it's goodbye. Anything that smells like a rip-off and my money simply doesn't come out.

Of course the going to the car thing is baloney, and the money to the driver and all that crap. But there are numerous ways to handle things, with leaving the room or handing over cash never being one. My approach has always been, yes, definitely, let's have the police sort this out, in fact, hold on, I'm getting hotel security up here right now in the meantime. That invariably changes the tone of things immediately. Most mongers cower in fear at the idea that someone else is going to get involved, because they think to themselves, well, what I'm doing is illegal, I don't want to get in trouble. The con and rip-off artists take advantage of that.

I just figure it's my room, I'm a registered guest, and I have nothing to worry about. Hotel security is there working in my interests, not those of my "guests." Besides, have I actually done anything illegal at that point -- especially something that can be proven in the least? I have not. I'm not going to worry about a sex worker saying I called her escort agency for sex and she came over and now I told her to take a hike and won't pay, that's for sure.

I've got no problem paying a kill fee if I've agreed to it in advance -- the woman did after all come across town at my behest -- but thats ONLY if I've agreed in advance.

[Rolly Polly]

pokey, i agree with having an assertive "don't fuck with me" attitude as long as you are not derogatory or degrading. i don't haggle with prices, i give an offer for the service i am requesting and if it's not good then i say take it or leave it because i can find a sw that will accept my offer.

i should restate that i endulge in the street scene and don't use higher end ladies that would be escorts or 'dancers' so i run across "bad apples" at a higher rate.

i guess there is a point where the lady can cross the line and invoke the bad side of me, but that would never result in a [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or any form of violence. i would take the financial loss before getting violent. this excludes a lady that would try and mug me or pull a weapon on me because that would result in me pulling my pistol if need be.

i have 4 or 5 regular sw's i see here in miami and then i grab the occational newbie to the streets when i see them appear and very very rarely have ever had a problem.

[Dickhead]

For once GT and I are in total agreement. Carrying a gun while mongering is nucking futz.

[Rolly Polly]

GettingTang,

Perhaps you have not been in the situations that I have been in. I should tell you that if you travel the roads I monger on you and ask the local SW's about me you will get nothing but good reports, but I will not become complacent and stop protecting myself.

I have a concealed weapons permit so LE can fuck with me all day about mongering, but they cannot say a thing about the gun I carry in a very safe and legal manner.

I think that depending on your mongering situation you are assuming varying degrees of risk. In other words, the monger who exclusively sees escorts is generally the safest, but the monger who exclusively uses SW's, especially in areas like Miami, LA, New York, Detroit..etc, have a higher amout of assumed risk. Some mongers do a lot of mongering over seas, but since I have not had that opportunity as of yet I don't know what kind of risk there is although I am told by experienced overseas mongers that the risk is low if you are smart and do your homework.

My point is that if you cruised with me for a week you may, just may, see why I carry my pistol.

[Pokey]

Hey, didn't the assult weapons ban expire yet? Dam I just love the 2nd amendment, now I can carry my assult weapon I purchased years back in the truck of my car. ( I'm starting to sound like a conservative now, don't know whats happening to me)

Joe, I'm sure you like fine hotels like me. What would you do if the girl who came to your room wasn't asian like you ordered, but a little chunky American, the kind CBGB Connisur, doesn't like, and she changed the rules on you. What would you do? Let's not forget about her driver, if you tell her "please leave" he tells you. "give her $150 dollars or else I'll kick you're ass."

Do you pussy out and give him $150, and write it off as GT says, "the cost of doing business;" and tell them both I'll never use your service again!

[Travis Bickle 2]

Getting Tang, I also agree with you on this one. Mongering with a gun makes no sense at all.

First, if a SW pulls a knife on you, do you really have time to reach under the seat, grab your gun, and use it to defend yourself. No. A gun in this instance will probably just get you hurt -- unless you monger with one hand on the gun at all times.

Second, If you get in an altercation with a SW and an officer finds a gun was used by you to get "leverage" you are going down. Instead of a mongering bust you will probably get charged with assault 1.

Last, Doesn't the need to carry a gun while mongering take the fun out of it? I've picked up close to two thousand SW's in the past 25 years and have never needed a firearm. I've mongered in Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Portland, and Phoenix. A couple of times one may have come in handy -- that is until the SW told the cops I threatened her with a hand gun.

Like I've said before: when I have to carry a weapon to monger -- it will be time to change hobbies.

Civ2000

[Joe Zop]

No, Pokey, I don't pay a thing. I say, well, ok, let's just get hotel security up here and then the cops, and we'll sort things out. Then, if they still want to hassle over it, I do it.

The driver threat thing never bothers me, frankly. I'm a street kid from a bad town and I can take care of myself. Whatever they've got I've probably seen worse. :D

But the reality is it just never comes to that, as I don't get upset or flustered and am simply insistent that this is not going to happen. Being calm and adamant in situations like this tends to fluster people.

It also helps that I will have already told the service that I would send someone away if they were not what I was told.

[Rock Dog]

To whom it may concern,

Has the thought ever crossed your mind/s that, if you really need to have a gun with you when you're doing your thing, maybe you're in the wrong place and dealing with the wrong kind of people.

Not trying to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) anyone off, but this recent topic concerning firearms has really got me surprised. It's not something I ever considered before. If I felt that it was necessary to be armed while I was mongering, I'd seriously consider giving the whole thing up.

Brings a whole new meaning to the term "shooting your load". :D

Rock

[My Alias]

This is yet another reason why I don't make it a practice of using SWs. I've used SWs a couple of times, but worried more about them leaving drugs in the car than me being hurt (I'm a rather large former bouncer, so I don't usually get messed with). I worried more about violence when I drove a cab. As I've grown older, I've limited my infrequent mongering forays to incall escorts and AMPs/CMPs (Caucasian MPs), just because I deal with fewer strung-out druggies and I get much better service. I've never carried a gun (in fact I don't own one), and my only weapon might be a fishing fillet knife in the back of my truck (with the rest of the fishing gear) or a pocketknife. Neither knife is where I can grab it without a big problem.

[Pokey]

Civ2000, remember we can't quit this hobby,or we don't want to.

I'm sorry I talked about the gun things, it's not a big part of my life. If fact where I do 80% of my mongering Mexico, guns are illegal in Mexico, you could get in big trouble; there I carry a switch blade, In Mexico you can get a great knife, but the knife was mainly for the Bandidos, if a girl in Mexico cheats me, because the prices are cheap I'll just cuss at her in spanish.( you can get in trouble in Mexico if caugh with a knife, but a $50 bribe should get you out of any trouble)

I think I retired from the streets of the US, in fact all last year I don't think I picked up one street walker.( I'm proud of myself)
The gun thing was mainly for high end prostitution, because there you could lose lots of money, and I had more problems with escorts and drivers then anywhere else in this life we lead.

I rarely took a gun with me for the streets, but when I did it was in South Central Los Angeles, home of the gang bangers, hood rats, crinimal low lifes, and yes drug infested black and latina SW's. I use to get a great adrenaline rush just cruising in this area. Picking up a hood rat, and fucking her in my car in a dark alley was the ultimate. I felt I needed a gun at times here, because it seemed everyone else had a weapon, just about all the girls had knives or a pimp near by.

Getting ripped off by a prostitute is not the number one problem. A sex worker will try to rip me off maybe 1 out of 10 times, mostly trying to steal money from my wallet, or promise me something like a BJ but then doesn't do it.

The number one problem is just bad sex! UP to 50% of the time the sex is nothing I'd write home mother about. Either the girl has a loose pussy, bored with her job, or what happens in Mexico a lot is not experienced, and just stares at the walls.

MY next topic is how I try to get around the bad sex.

[Member #2001]

joe zop

i think people should write what ever they want to on theis board and i like his posts on the milwaukee board even if they are not true, but i dont understand why someone would make up stories like that. i dont know what the motive would be, so i entd to believe them. one reason i prowl this sight is to read about personal exploites from punters. i dont care if they are real, but i tend to thisn they are.

if someone wants to write about gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), kidnapping, or murder i would be interested to reading those posts also. its not up to me as to weather you or le believe its true or not. i will still find them all entertaining and i really dont have to worry about what other people think about me, or if they find me guilty by association or not. i dont have to answer to anyone but myself. besides i get the feeling that some of you out there would like to do nothing better then to ban everyone here according your own personal code of morals. i am glad that its not the case here.

[Sporadic]

Member 2001:

While I appreciate your opinion that almost all posts have value, even those suspect of being fiction, I would suggest that the idea behind this site is not simply titillation for the curious.

In this particular thread, we are (or should be ;)) discussing the morality of the hobby. If Joe Z cannot express his opinions here, then where?

Personally, I feel violence has no place, or should have no place in a mutually agreed encounter. Like almost every human endevour, courtesy and civility goes a long way.

At all events, I hope you enjoy reading posts and continue to make contributions; we are all the richer for them.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

member #2001, i see a distinct difference between someone making up stories and posting about actual experiences -- i'm here for getting and sharing information, as per the stated purpose of wsg, not to read bad versions of "american psycho." there are plenty of places where people can read or share sexual fantasies, such as the alt.sex.stories newsgroup. jackson has clearly defined the parameters of his domain here.

i find nothing "entertaining" about hearing someone's actually engaging in [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), murder or ****philia (something else i imagine could be added to your list of "entertainment") and i'm certainly not going to worry in the least if you feel my oppressive personal code of ethics is talking when i say people who engage in them should not only be banned but imprisoned. i'm a fairly radical free-speech advocate (i've been party to a lawsuit on the subject that made it to the supreme court) but that doesn't mean there still aren't standards and limits. people posting fiction on wsg should be either banned or relegated to a thread for fiction, (imho, that's obviously jackson's call) and if they're posting about actual experiences or [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or murder they should be arrested.

the fact that some of us happen to think laws against prostitution are misguided doesn't mean we all think it's a good idea to throw laws about violence toward other people out of the window or don't still believe in civil society.

[Webcams]

joe zop; i couldn't add much to your statment i totally agree with you on the purpose of this board as well as your thoughts on people posting of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and murder.

however the age of consent in each persons state vary's and should be taken into account.

posting of sex with minors is in general wrong, and is not permitted.

[Prokofiev]

" guns are illegal in Mexico, you could get in big trouble; there I carry a switch blade,"

" My point is that if you cruised with me for a week you may, just may, see why I carry my pistol"

"now I can carry my assult weapon I purchased years back in the truck of my car

" remember we can't quit this hobby, or we don't want to"

I guess this is the TRUE meaning of Sex Addiction - not being able to to quit a "hobby" despite being in life threatening situations. You guys need to find a new hobby fast or at least find a safer place to do it. Loading down with weapons for a fun night on the town is crazy. Will end up in disaster for you or someone else. As others have advised, "never carry a firearm unless you are prepared to use it" and "if you use a gun, you may win the battle, but you'll certainly lose the war"

[Prokofiev]

" if someone wants to write about gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), kidnapping, or murder i would be interested to(in) reading those posts also. i will still find them all entertaining and i really dont have to worry about what other people think about me, or if they find me guilty by association or not. i dont have to answer to anyone but myself. besides i get the feeling that some of you out there would like to do nothing better then to ban everyone here according your own personal code of morals"

dude, since when is "gang [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), kidnapping and murder" just someone's personal code of morals? i would hope they are a universal set of morals. that you find them "entertaining" is one of the scariest things i have ever read here. yeah, hitler and john wayne gacy were so damn entertaining.

please join lefty and seek professional help immediately . . .

[Cash Works]

webcams,

stick to women who are 18 or older. better yet, play it safe and don't touch them if they're under 21.

while the "age of consent" may vary from state to state, i think you'll find, if you looked into it, that p4p with anyone under the age of 18, even if she's over the "age of consent" will get you a more severe penalty than merely having sex with her (they'd probably throw in other charges like "child endangerment" or "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" and possibly "statutory [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)") - she's still a minor until she turns 18, no matter what the "age of consent" may be.

also, "age of consent" is not necessarily as clear-cut as you may think. in some (most?) states, there is an age difference rule that goes along with "age of consent". for example - let's say the "age of consent" is 16 - it may be legal for an 18 or 20 year old to have sex with a 16 year old girl, but a guy who is 21 or older may be risking jail for statutory [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123).

cw

[Your Guest]

Hey Folks,

Nobody missing me I'm afraid. This post just to let you know that I am alive so for.

Yogesh

[Pokey]

Prokofiev, says to Lefty in the Wisconsin tread:

"And Lefty, for what it's worth, don't listen to the naysayers!

I like you better as Ward Cleaver than Norman Bates . ."

Lefty, was asking members if they ever jacked-off to June Cleaver in Leave it to Beaver? He then goes on to tell a joke how Ward Cleaver, after banging his son beaver, goes and gets a BJ from June, who complains his dick smells, obviously a joke in bad taste, yet Prokofiev finds funny and defends Lefty.

If Prokfiev doesn't find Lefty entertaining, why is he there posting on that forum? All of his post are from Spain, Argintina, and Central Mexico, yet he finds time to monger in shit hole Wisconsin? ( they look for SW's in K-Mart parking lots)

Prokofiev, goes on to say that guys who can't quit the hobby should look for a new hobby or a safer area.

I'd say that Prokofiev, is very hyporcritical, and I don't think I'll take his advice, I don't even think he'll take his own advice.


I think those of you who find Lefty's post criminal instead of just crying to Jackson, should instead file a complaint with the Wisconsin police, and tell them a crime has been committed. I'm sure they will enjoy a good laugh.

JZ, I loved that movie "American Pycho" especially that one sex scene when he is doing both girls. After that movie, I noticed I did more threesomes after that. Supreme Court! I wonder what did you do now? I hope at least in envolved sex somehow?

[Prokofiev]

pokey,

once again, you have managed to get things ass-backwards. if you had actually read the series of posts i was referring to, you would have seen that lefty's moron cheering section was chastising him for having a girlfriend and laying off the sexual assaults they are so fond of. they were jumping on him for being "soft". i would rather he jerk-off to june cleaver than anally [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) another woman. the "don't listen to the nay-sayers" post was meant for those idiots pushing him to commit yet another crime for their entertainment . . . not in reference to those who find his behavior unacceptable.

and i will read and post wherever i want. no need to explain it to you . . .

-p

[Joe Zop]

Oh, hey, the fact that you don't disagree with someone all the time hardly invalidates your opinion when you do. And I just don't think the issue is whether or not someone is entertaining.

The point is hardly one of filing a police report -- which is useless without a victim complaint. It's whether or not certain kinds of posts are valid things within the context of WSG.

Pokey, unfortunately I can't give a lot of details about the Supreme Court thing as it would probably make it too easy to out me. Sex was involved, but indirectly.

[Rock Dog]

greetings all,

i read looking for lefty's posts in the wisconsin section. these posts seem to be the product of a low-class individual with borderline sociopathic tendencies. this is whether or not the aforementioned events actually occured.

this guy definitely finds satisfaction in degrading women by taking advantage of them or by putting them into humiliating situations. the same applies to his so-called "fans" who take enjoyment from reading his posts.

whether or not his activities legally qualify as [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or assault is beside the point. this isn't the kind of thing we need to have posted here.

just my own opinion, but i've always thought of wsg as a place where guys who are looking for a good time can get the best information and share their pics and stories.

rock

[Pokey]

Prokofiev, you were only on Wisconsin tread to help the poor future victims of Lefty crimes and trying to stear him in the right direction and against those bastards who were encouraging to commit crimes because they loved his posted reports so much.


And I will take my gun and fuck wherever I want. No need to explain to you...



Hypocrites don't you just love them?

[Member #2001]

Glad to see that I am not the only one here that feels this way. I was beginning to thing that I was the only sane voice in a sea of insanity.

Pokey. love the post about calling the cops. If they think that someone on this board then they should call the cops and stop using up bandwith.

I think I will I will layoff this thread for a while nd just read all the interesting posts (fiction or nonfiction).

[Sporadic]

In the interest of getting somewhat back on topic, I pose a question to the group.

Have you ever wanted to, or tried, to "save" a girl from her profession? (No lawyer jokes please ;))

In a one case, many years ago, I wanted to "help someone" and was very quickly disabused of my näive notions of gallantry. That sound of the "shot heard ´round the world" was me popping my head out of my ass.

Comments? Experiences anyone?

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rubber Nursey]

Excellent question. Lots of guys over the years seemed to want to 'rescue' me. But from what? Dressing up, having lots of sex and earning lots of money??? LOL :)

[Sporadic]

RN, That was the popping sound you heard.

It was either a case of "rescue from what?" meaning I was a pompous ass and presuming I knew how one should live, or, as it turned out, salvation meant supplying extra funds like a näive fool.

Could it be I was the only one ever simultaneously afflicted with both conditions? Granted, I was young and idealistic back then, but I kind of doubt it.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

Actually, I've tried such "rescue" on four different occasions. Twice it seemed to work, twice once not.

But let me be clear -- on all occasions I was asked for help, repeatedly and sincerely, and it was clear to me that the requests were genuine as opposed to a con (I've had numerous attempts to have those run on me, and no, I'm not interested in being one more guy on a string.)

The two times it didn't work was with two women who had substance abuse problems. In both cases I helped get them into a rehab program, some level of stability and security (one more than the other, as the other never really got stable) and both basically ended up back in the same situation because the rehab didn't take. Prostitution was not the core issue -- it was means to an end. (One still makes me sad, as she was a long-time good friend with whom I was never a customer, a highly intelligent person. But she went back and forth with herion and methadone and could never get free.)

As far as the other two situations -- both were ambitious women who felt trapped in doing the work they were doing and wanted out. One was already going to school, the other wanted to and was smart enough to do so. I helped the former with tuition, (and saw clearly that was what the money went for) study skills and prioritizing and she made it through school and into another field. The latter I helped with organizing her life and habits, her resume and interviewing skills, and she got another kind of job with the idea of saving money and heading to school. I don't know if she ever managed school, but she was still working the job two years later when last I ran into her.

The key in all cases was that money had very little to do with things -- it was more the kind of personal help you'd give anyone.

But as RN so aptly says, there's no rescue if there's no distress.

[Rolly Polly]

RN is right with the "save me from what" question. There is no saving from the sex work industry. Those that need saving are really the SW's who use the industry to pay for a habit. In these cases it's a saving from drugs that is needed, but good luck doing that.

I guess the one scenario I can think of is a runaway that gets sucked in by a pimp and eventually wants to escape, but is to afraid to do so. I've never met anyone in that situation, but I would like to think most mongers would do what they can to help.

[Sporadic]

Joe:

Your situation was obviously different, and I salute you for helping a person in need who asks for it. I am privately proud to have played a small part in assisting a couple people that way. Good feeling.

As for the substance abuse, yes, that is sad, and not limited to disadvantaged persons. I have known PhD´s with everything going for them, who have thrown their life away on drugs or alcohol. Not much to do there.

I guess my question was one of attitude. There must be some point between being a sucker and being judgemental. Perhaps you said it all when you limited yourself to people who asked for help. Or are we back to RN´s favorite topic of provider´s rights and benefits?

Do the "Minnie the mootchers" out there have a counterpart "John with a heart of gold?"

Since my "popping my head out" episode 20 years ago, I simply mind my own damn business, but I still sometimes feel like I would like to help out. Silly, I will admit, but nonetheless true.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Sporadic]

Rolly Polly:
I think you are right on the mark. I hope every decent person would help a runaway. I have never run into that sort of thing, but agree that is a special case, requiring extraordinary measures.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

Sporadic, there are lots of times when things have tugged at my heart strings when talking with sex workers, but most of the time it comes in the fashion of "I really wish I didn't do this; I wish I had someone to take care of me." That, combined with the afterglow of a sexual encounter, is where I think most guys get tugged in -- and that's where you get the joy of being an abused sucker.

Thankfully I've never fallen into that particular trap.

And a hearty amen on the substance abuse side of things. Apologies for the fact that this is rather obtuse to the topic, but I remember a guy I know -- a highly educated, successful black man, who told us all he had decided to try crack because he felt he needed to understand what was happening to his community. This was a throught-out, conscious action that everyone, including myself, tried to talk him out of taking. He explained that he simply didn't feel he could talk to affected people without coming at it from a position of personal knowledge. You can guess the rest -- he did it once, got hooked, thew close to everything away, and it took him several years to get more or less free from the yoke. And this was one of the strongest people I know in terms of character. I look at my own encounters with drugs (which were regular back in the day) and am happy for my metabolism and dumb luck.

[Pokey]

Sporadic says:
Have you ever wanted to, or tried, to "save" a girl from her profession?

I would strongly advice against it, because that's like trying to domesticate a wild animal. In the end you will be doomed to failure, and just like a wild animals do, you could get hurt(feelings) or bit,( ripped-off) You would have a much better chance of getting a Leopard to change its spots, then getting a prostitute to change professions. I'm not saying it can't be done, maybe with Religion or drug treatments programs they have a chance, but with mongers, pimps, and sex exploiters, no I don't think it could be done.

Regarding runaways, By definition you must be talking about young girls, 18 and under. That's a taboo subject here, so I won't talk about it, but I wouldn't trust a monger with a runaway. Remember how I talked about the Fox guarding the henhouse before-not good!

[Travis Bickle 2]

I've also attempted to "rescue" a couple of SW's. Both were heroin addicted and I believe they both genuinely wanted to quit. I let them kick at my house, fed them, took care of them, and helped them get into treatment. Both times however they bailed. It usually takes a week or so to get into treatment here and they both ripped me off to get their drugs to get "well". I don't really blame them as I know first hand how intense the cravings are and how sick you feel.

I finally realized that the enormous problems these gals faced were WAY more than I could handle. When the pain of addiction and the SW lifestyle become greater than the pain of quitting -- they do. There are plenty of great programs available for the SW that wants help and they don't need any John's help getting into them.

All they have to do is walk into about a dozen different social service agencies here in town and ask for help. In fact, they offer all types of post-release substance abuse help while you are in jail. It would be nice to help a SW, but now I leave that to the professionals.

One last thing. One of the first things they tell you when you go to rehab is to let go of all your former contacts. One SW I was particularly good friends with, called me from treatment and said her counselor said it was a terrible idea to keep in contact with a former customer, and it would probably cause her to relapse. And then went on to say how it was guys like me who kept gals like her strung out on drugs. She started describing me with words like: co-dependant, enabler, etc.

And all I did was feed her, clothe her, drive her around, and help her. I didn't even ask for sex.

Never again!

Sporadic, That second sound that was heard around the world was not an echo. It was my head also popping out of my ass.

Civ2000

[Rock Dog]

Greetings all,

What a breath of fresh air. It's nice to see a new topic going red hot like this one and everyone seems to be getting along like we used to. I tried to save a girl about 2 and a half years ago. Not exactly in the way you might think though.

I met her on a street corner one summer afternoon while I was out for a bike ride. She was black, in her early 20's and soooo attractive. It was pretty obvious that she was a prostitute. Normally, I'm not all that into picking a girl from off the street, but she was exactly the kind of girl I would have wanted for a girlfriend (except for that one little thing of course).

We did a little negotiating and I was struck by how little she was asking in exchange for her services. When we got back to the place she was staying at, I couldn't help but notice what a dump it was. As if that wasn't bad enough, she had this loser boyfriend/pimp who was leeching off of her.

So I suggested to her that she had the body and the looks to do a lot better than she was being on the street. I told her that she should join an escort agency and then she'd be getting 2, 3, even 4 times as much money for her efforts. She seemed a little bit interested, but I think she kind of lacked the initiative and self-esteem to actually go ahead and try it.

I tried my best to convince her that she could do it. I even called a couple of the local agencies on her behalf. They were interested and said that all she had to do was give them a call herself.

So what happened? Last time I saw her, she was still hustling $20 dollar blowjobs on the same street corners. Haven't seen her at all in the last year. I think the moral here is, if they're gonna get "saved", they have to want the help in the first place. They also have to be willing to put in some effort themselves if they want to make a difference in their life.

Rock

[Sporadic]

Pokey:
You would have a much better chance of getting a Leopard to change its spots, then getting a prostitute to change professions. ...but with mongers, pimps, and sex exploiters, no I don't think it could be done.I detect just a smidgen of judgemental attitude here. I will grant the need for treatment of the underlying cause, perhaps substance abuse, bad family situation or whatever, but I do not agree that providers are "of a type" that can never change, or for that matter need to.

I also mildly resent the implied slam on mongers in general. I think you would be surprised at some of the people who hobby.

Will you accept the premise that providers and mongers are people, not one dimensional beings?

I accept your position on runaways, but I would suggest that the subject was not at all sinister, as I think you suspect.

My only experience with SW´s was 23 years ago, since then it has been escort-types in about 9 different countries. Substance abuse is usually not the issue with these providers, it seems to be a case of cashing in on their assets while they can, to supplement income.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[PsyberZombie]

This notion that prostitutes and strippers are "Victims" who are "forced" into these professions ; and need to be "rescued" from same , makes me *laugh*

It's a whole lot easier for a woman in our Society to collect Welfare ; get Section 8 housing ; or food stamps ; or other Social Services , than it is for an able-bodied guy to

Yet , unless you're a Marxist Professor of Sociology , nobody claims that a Man is a "Victim" who needs to be "Rescued" because he was "forced" to , say , Rob a Bank

These gals do what they do By Their Own CHOICE

.... because let's face it = Crime does indeed Pay ; and Prostitution is a Lot Easier than having to get out of bed every morning and work 40 hours a week and be De·graded by a Boss instead of a John

[Sporadic]

Zombie: (great handle by the way)

I am the first to agree with your comment about being a victim. Society today seems to want to absolve everyone of all personal responsibility. There are, however, persons involved with what amounts to slavery, particularly outside the U.S. Certainly they would qualify as victims under any rationale.

I guess I have never run into the "lazy" kind of provider. Most, as I mentioned were very actively trying to make money. Quite enterprising in fact. I would suggest that Darwin will sort out the truly lazy, as the wares for sale tend to decrease in value over time.

It almost sounds like you could cross-post this to the American women thread ;)

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Cash Works]

i can't say that i've ever actively tried to "rescue" any providers. however, when i was living in brasil about 20 years ago, there was this street kid (her family generally lived on the beach, only occasionally actually had a house/shack - and believe it or not, they weren't miserable) who was 9 or 10 years old when i first met her. she knew most of the providers in the area & would point out the ones to avoid (thieves & psychos) and it was pretty obvious that she was in awe of their lifestyle. no, at that time, she wasn't in the game as an **** provider, though some could argue that she sort of worked as an **** "madamme", though, as far as i know, she didn't receive a percentage from her introductions. she was sort of like everyone's really cool little sister.

anyway, over the years, there were a number of people who tried to "improve" her life - she was "placed" with 2 or 3 brasillian families who sent her to school and gave her a nice place to live, but this never lasted more than a couple of months because she preferred the street/beach. she was even "adopted" by a family in florida & lived there for about 6 months before she demanded that they return her to fortaleza so she could go back to living on the street/beach (i don't know all the details, but apparently, the adoption wasn't finalized at that point and her birth parents were still alive & well in brasil, so they sent her back).

the last time i saw her was about 15 years ago. she had hooked up with a group of providers, who struck me as the type that she would warn us away from (psycho thieves). anyway, she was in the game at that point as an ****d provider (she would have been about 14 at that time, but if i didn't know her, i probably would have thought she was at least 18), she seemed to be very happy with her lifestyle and said they were heading to rio the next day & i never saw her again.

i guess the best analogy would be to compare her to a wild animal. she was happy when she was living on the beach, but placing her with a family with a house, rules and school was just like putting her in a cage. she didn't drink or do drugs, she wasn't a runaway, she just really wanted to be a prostitute because, in her mind, they were the most sensual women in the world & that was the role model she aspired to emulate. the only way to "rescue" her would have been to literally put her in a cage - lock her up in a school somewhere that she couldn't escape from until she was 18. even then, though, i'm sure that she would have gotten into the life as soon as she was "released", but at least she would have been of age.

cw

[Dickhead]

I met a gal who had been a prostitute off and on but who had a regular job when I met her. Bear in mind this is in Argentina after the peso crash. The job was dwindling away due to the poor economy. At the end of my first visit, during which we had spent a few days together, she asked me to "loan" her the money to buy a sewing machine (she is a seamstress). I got her the machine but did not really expect to get paid back.

The next time I visited, I brought her some orders for leather jackets, and I advanced her the money to buy the leather. Some of the jackets she finished before I left but others she did not. While I was back in the states she called me and asked if she could sell the remaining leather. By this time her regular job was completely gone. I said okay but that she would be throwing away the profit on the remaining jobs if she could not replace the leather and finish the jackets before my next visit. She couldn't.

Then I was down there for an extended period of time and I offered to let her live with me. I told her I would pay the rent and the utilities and buy food but would not give her any cash, and not to ask for any. She had been saying that if she had a place where she could not just sew but bring customers to design outfits (her apartment was too shitty to do that in), maybe she could make a go of it. But after we moved into the apartment I saw no real effort on her part to do that.

Anyway we stopped being lovers and were basically just roommates, and finally she started going out on the street at night. I think she thought if I saw her do that a few times I would break down and give her some money so she did not have to do that. But I did not care. Really I think I was trying to rescue her from having to live in her shitty apartment, not trying to rescue her from prostitution. That didn't work either as she is still living in her shitty apartment with no heat or hot water and one bathroom for seven families. She just had 9 tumors removed from her stomach and ovaries and 7 were cancerous. I let her stay in my apartment while I was in Europe for 2 weeks so she could recuperate in a place with heat, hot water, and an elevator. She supposedly can't have sex for 6 months so I suspect she'll be giving a lot of BJs.

Now I tell her I will help her in any way I can that does not involve money changing hands, and I do. By the way, drugs are not an issue here. I don't personally believe anyone can rescue anyone from anything, whether it's prostitution, drugs, obesity, abusive relationships, or whatever. Motivation has to come from within.

More recently I was asked by a favorita to pay her tuition to culinary school but I said no. I might have said yes if the "relationship" wasn't already starting to fade.

[Sporadic]

So the question would be, Are we...

A) Presumptious SOB´s for not minding our own business?

B) Just trying to be decent human beings, even if we know that we will probably fail?

C) Suckers?

D) None of the above, the people we try to help are ingrates.

Cast your vote here. Write-in votes welcome. If you do not want to clutter the thread with votes, send me a PM and I will tally and post completely unscientific results.

Seriously, Dickhead makes a good point, I have tried to help out some younger people at work (the catchy phrase is mentoring) and I do not know if some them are just ungrateful b*stards, or simply that I should MYOB.

The concensus seem to lean towards being presumptious. We seem to agree that "helping out" will not solve substance abuse, mental health or societal issues, So what is left? Butinski-ism.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

To me most of this is irrelevant in terms of whether or not someone's a sex worker. There are plenty of people who want to change their lives or change their jobs. Am I a presumptious SOB if I lend a hand there? I've certainly done so with many friends and acquaintences when asked. And of course the odds suck on helping someone -- prostitute or otherwise -- who wants help with problems exacerbated by drug use. But those folks are also generally the ones most in crisis, so it's tough to just turn away.

There are a lot of people who wish out loud for changing their lives. Not many actually can do it, even if they truly want to, regardless of their intentions. Sure, it's something heard a lot from people in situations with low social status, but not only there. And with sex workers we're usually hearing it pre or post-coitus, so our oxytocin is going and we're feeling more bonded.

As far as mentoring, I think the same rule applies -- people have to ask for it, as opposed to have it imposed on them.

So I guess I'd vote for E) All of the above -- depending on the situation.

[Mystic Pimp]

Hi, I am a new poster to this section of the WSG Forum, and I don't know if anyone in here has covered this topic, so here goes.

I'm a sports fan, and throughout parts of the day I get to listen to some of the sports talk shows. In a way, many of these millionaire athletes are like regular guys, pretty much having to "pay-for-play". Is there much of a difference between sports figures sleeping with women they barely know or meet, and giving them "gifts" or "hush money" and regular guys trolling for coochie? If anything, it's no different from a guy having to take a woman out on a date, buying her dinner, taking her out, in the hopes of getting some at the end of the night.

These women (I would assume it's mostly women that are against prostitution) would rip street girls, escorts, etc. but would be the same women who would throw themselves at a celebrity or sports star if they could get something out of it.

Prostituiton is going on all the time, everywhere, in all walks of life. Not necessarily the notorious kind, but most of us are out there trying to find people to help ourselves get ahead, whether it's to get more money, or more sex, or whatever else we desire.

MP

[Cash Works]

MP,

I think your question is basically about what I've brought up a couple of times in the last few months - "Prostitution is the only honest way to get laid". In our society and in most countries around the world that I've had the opportunity to visit, whether it's a clear cut case of P4P or a "normal" relationship (theoretically not P4P), the man is expected to pay - the difference between the two is that Prostitution is brutally honest - "you pay me $$ & I provide the following services", where the "normal" relationship has no clearly defined rewards - many women will tease you along with promises of sexual favors that may or may not be delivered - it's virtually guaranteed, however that you won't get laid if you don't spend any money on her or do loads of favors, etc.

CW

[My Alias]

http://sfweekly.com/issues/2004-09-08/feature.html/1/index.html
. This story is long, but it's an interesting history of sex work in modern San Francisco strip clubs.

[Joe Zop]

Nice link Oosikman, very interesting stuff. Nice to know that fees levied on dancers at strip places by the clubs have been rules illegal, as the whole independent contractor stuff was always bogus, just a way of club owners upping profits by taking advantage of the women working there.

[Rock Dog]

Here's a link to a pretty good page that presents some comparisons between Russian and American women. There's a few good points in there.

The spacing is a little wonky so it might take a while to read through the whole thing.

http://www.talkaboutsupport.com*********alt.support.divorce/messages/503450.html

FYI

Rock

[Mystic Pimp]

Oosikman:

This is the correct link URL:

http://sfweekly.com/issues/2004-09-08/feature.html/1/index.html

[Rubber Nursey]

"D) None of the above, the people we try to help are ingrates".

Hey...I resemble that remark!! ;)

Just a little question to add to the question (although Joe has, of course, already touched on it in his post, because Joe always beats me to these things!!) To those of you who have tried to 'save' sex workers - have any of you ever been tempted to try and 'rescue' a girl from her low-paid and degrading Macca's job? Anyone ever spotted a cleaner scrubbing a public toilet and offered to set her up in a penthouse? Do you give money to homeless people on the street? What is it that makes people try to rescue sex workers?

Like Joe, I think the after-sex afterglow is probably directly responsible for a lot of this White Knight behaviour. I was also leaning towards the 'man as protector' mentality being a contributing factor - however if that's the case, why are you not out rescuing female checkout chicks and cleaners? Why would you reach out to a heroin addicted street worker, but (probably) not a heroin addicted telephonist?

So I've come to the conclusion (and this is going to sound rude, but I don't mean it to be) that even though you may think of yourself as just a nice man trying to do something good for a fellow human being - somewhere in the back of your mind, you're probably hoping to have your good deed rewarded by lots of great sex. What do you think? Is it coming from the heart, or from some other part of your body?

[Sporadic]

RN,

While I will agree that many guys may be thinking of sex vice philanthropy, I have helped 3 workers (2 different maids, and no, I never touched them) and one gardener/handyman, and no less than four former students get set up in business.

Sometimes they needed capital, sometimes just a word in the right ear or possibly a job for an unemployed spouse.

When I see someone who is working way below their potential, being held back by crapulous circumstances, yes, I try to help out. Often to my own benefit; loyal employees are rare these days.

Do I cruise the streets looking for people to save? No.

If in the course of my daily life I come to know someone who could use a hand, and I can do so, I will extend it.

Can any of you honestly say you have never helped someone out of a jam?

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rubber Nursey]

I just noticed this in Cash Works' post - "many women will tease you along with promises of sexual favors that may or may not be delivered" - and although this is not going to be entirely on topic, I wanted to comment on it.

I just got back from a couple of days away and I had a frustrating (and frustratingly common!) experience with a man I met on the first night. After a few hours drinking with him AND others, I went up to his room with him. And before anyone mentions it - I had legitimate, work-related reasons to go to his room and there was never a hint of an ulterior motive on his part. Anyway, we deal with the stuff we went there to deal with - and then he jumps me. When I told him to stop, I got the usual "I thought that's what you wanted" crap thrown at me. So I asked him how exactly he got the idea that that was what I wanted. These are the examples he gave me:

1) "Well, you're dressed to kill" (I was wearing a black shirt, black pants and no makeup).
2) "You kept bending over the bar so I could check out your arse" (The bar was low and I'm tall. The bar was also at least five metres away from where he and our friends were sitting and there were heaps of people standing between us).
3) "You said you were single" (I also said I was hungry, but he didn't offer to buy me dinner!! LOL)
4) "You've been teasing me all night" (I had to ask for more information on this one - and apparently it was because I laughed at all his jokes and leaned towards him when I talked to him).

For the record, I would have been quite happy to break the drought and sleep with this guy, if he hadn't been so bloody crude about it. (How attractive does "Go on, let me stick it in ya" sound to you guys?!) But what I'm getting at with all this is that this guy will probably go back to his mates and blame me for 'leading him on' or 'giving out mixed signals'. I often wonder how many guys have legitimate complaints about women stringing them along, and how many of them have just totally misread the situation.

And don't even ASK about the second night...that was even worse!!! LOL

[Rubber Nursey]

Sporadic...I still think you're adorable. :)

I should just add that that post wasn't directed at you, personally. I hope you didn't think it was. It's really nice to know that you would help someone out regardless of their occupation. That's what I was getting at - which of you are the type to lend a helping hand whenever necessary and which of you had only really ever tried to help sex workers.

I think wanting to help someone - especially a stranger - is a very noble thing, so please don't think that I'm condemning it. It's just that it's so common for clients to want to 'rescue' sex workers, even though many of them don't seem the type to be quite so generous and caring in the 'real world'. It made me think that perhaps - even subconsciously - the thought of getting sex in return may be influencing their decision. (And I'm certainly not stating that as fact, either! I just wondered what your opinions were).

[Cash Works]

RN,

Sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience. I have to admit, that most of us don't have very well honed "reading skills" when it comes to the opposite sex - I'm pretty sure that I've missed out on a lot of sex because of this - I've always been rather cautious when dealing with non-pro's.

I, for one, have never fooled around with colleagues at work - Originally, that was due to the fact that I always had "in the field" (out of the office) positions and in my industry, those positions were very male dominated and most of the time, there weren't any women to fool around with at work (but there was usually a brothel nearby). Then, when we started getting women working "in the field", I was generally their supervisor - as much as I might be interested, I'm not going to jeopardize my carreer by sleeping with a subordinate (there's always the brothel - a much safer option).

The comment about the "tease" was pretty much an observation on American dating relationships. I don't know too many guys who are going to spend loads of money on dates with a woman if they aren't interested in having sex with her. I also believe that women understand this and they should be honest with their date and tell them that sex is not going to happen, if they aren't interested in having sex with them - if they still want to go out with the guy on a platonic basis, they should at least offer to pay half of the bill. If that's OK with both parties, then there shouldn't be a problem. I've had a number of platonic relationships that were quite enjoyable (intellectually), I've also had some that just didn't work out because I just got too turned on by being with her and the knowledge that having sex with her was out of the question was a bit overwhelming - so I found it best for me to not pusue any sort of relationship. I've also found that many of these platonic relationships lead to sexual relationships with friends of my platonic friend - sometimes this caused problems, other times it didn't.

The "tease" problem arises when there aren't any ground rules - the guy is expecting sex, she knows it but chooses to just use him as bodyguard/banker, with no intention of delivering on his expectations. I actually see this a lot in America - it's limited to the dating scene, but carries over into marriage as well.

OK, shoot me, I'm a pragmatists, not a romantic.

CW

[Rock Dog]

RN,

Touche! It's so true that we see what we want to see and don't see what we don't want to see. That's why one person's version of the truth is so often different that anothers'. What we think is the truth is really a flexible perception based on need.

It's probably the basis for so many misunderstandings between men and women since our needs are somewhat different. I really liked the way you were able to list out the way he saw things and then compare it to the way you saw it from your own point of view.

It just shows what a fine line divides a failed encounter from a successful one. A few genuine compliments and a little bit of patience can make the difference. Maybe that's why some guys seem to get all the action, hmmmmm.

Rock

[Rubber Nursey]

Oh, I'm not too concerned. It happens to me all the time. I guess if I'm enjoying someone's company I like to let them know it - and often it's misconstrued as flirting. Then again, I'm pretty open and upfront with people I like, so maybe I AM flirting when I don't mean to be?! :) But I don't care much about that. What I don't like - and what I think you're saying you don't like either - is dishonesty and/or not making intentions clear.

He was going up to that room thinking he was gonna sleep with me, while I was thinking we were going to discuss work stuff (we don't actually work together - we do the same job in different parts of the state). All he had to do was tell me what he was thinking and I would never have gone up there in the first place. As an example, compare his actions to the guy from the second night. We're on a sofa in the pub, drinking and laughing, and in the middle of the conversation he suddenly blurts out "I'm going to have to kiss you soon". And we immediately both know where we stand.

I've just had this discussion with someone in private, and I'll say it again. I can't stand game players of EITHER sex. Men and women have both gotta stop screwing with each other's brains and be upfront about what they want. There also needs to be more communication between us. Everyone is too afraid to say what they're really thinking, which leads to misinterpretation and confusion. Which is why I love prostitution - it's about as honest and uncomplicated as personal relationships can get.

[Sporadic]

RN,

Cash works has IMHO the right idea, workplace romance is tabu, but then again I have watched many a "business trip" turn into a sex vacation for people of both sexes.

I, like CashWorks, am very, very careful with reading "signals." Indeed I will pass on anything that does not literally drop into my lap. P4P does have it´s advantages.

The only two reasons I can think of why you might find me adorable are...

1. You are mildly delusional.
2. You have never seen me naked. ;)

Certainly no offense taken about helping people, but I have been the beneficiary of guidance, kindness and caring from too many people in too many countries to toss the whole human race in the bin, as it were.

As for your incedent with the cad, how dare you walk about in public with a serviceable vagina! Of course you were asking for it!

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Sporadic]

RN:
Oh, I'm not too concerned. It happens to me all the time. I guess if I'm enjoying someone's company I like to let them know it - and often it's misconstrued as flirting.

Well there you are. Being friendly while carrying a concealed vagina. You felonious teaser you!

While I will admit to making many decisions with the little head, I feel the root problem here is forgetting that we are dealing with sentient beings here, not just sexual organs.

As many here seem to agree, P4P is the best way to avoid de-humanizing sporadic (sorry!) encounters.

It meets the RN communications test; up front, clear and to the point, and hopefully mutually beneficial.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

The problem I have with your prescription, Cash Works, is this -- while I'll certainly have to be attracted to a woman to ask her out, and while that generally includes on some level the desire to sleep with her, that's not the same thing as saying I want to sleep with her right now no matter what. For all I know, she's a looney-tunes Fatal Attraction type or someone who basically wants to figure the fastest way to get my money and credit cards in her hand. For all I know she's dumb as an already-cemented brick and I can only put up with that so long, or she's extremely bright but extremely bitter, messed up, neurotic, whatever. Maybe I see her as someone I'd like to bang for a really long time but my sense is she's out to hook me and then break my heart, or I'm out to do her only once and she'd be the type to get hooked and heartbroken. A date is a means of trying to figure that stuff out.

And if that's my agenda, then naturally hers can and should be the same -- presumably to say yes to my invitation she should find me at least somewhat attractive and interesting, and a date is a way of figuring out whether or not I'm nothing but a horny misogynist, a wife-beater, a guy who'll say anything to get into her pants and then dump her immediately regardless of whether she'd like to think in terms of a relationship, etc., etc.

But either person should be able to say, whoa, I don't think I've figured this out yet or, whoa, I've figured it out and it's not going the way I need it to go. That's not teasing, that's self-preservation.

I realize that complicates the "I take you to dinner, you undress after dessert" prescription, but in my book real relationships both don't and shouldn't run by P4P rules. I've got too many friends who ended up in miserable marriages or nasty divorces all because it was all about getting into bed as quickly and efficiently as possible, consequences be damned. Heck, we were just talking about the tendency of guys to try to "rescue" hookers, many with substance abuse problems -- if that's a dumb idea, how is it smarter to date and then fuck without figuring out what might be lurking in your own bed come morning?

And RN, might I suggest that at the very least you should stop "beginning to feel old and tired and ugly" (your comment circa the beginning of the month) if you are still managing to get at least two guys in two days to want to jump your bones, regardless of the specifics and outcome? As Shakespeare wrote, "Men at some time are masters of their fates, The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings." So figger out what you want, girl, and get it!

[Rubber Nursey]

You guys are always so good for my ego. :) Yes, I have to admit - I've felt like a friggin' sex goddess for the last few days! Was kinda nice to be in the limelight after so long hiding in the shadows. Unfortunately it didn't really pay off, but them's the breaks. As for figuring out what I want ...I found it, I had it and then I lost it again. (That would be the second night debacle). Only *I* could go to 2 hotel rooms with 2 different men in 2 nights and still not manage to have sex!! LOL

I totally agree with Joe's 'wait and see' dating comments. It seems to me sometimes, that some posters on this forum might have forgotten what the aims of dating are supposed to be. Isn't a date supposed to be about getting to know someone, with a view to a long-term relationship? A lot of guys here and in the AW section seem to be treating a date like a pre-sex interview. If that's what it's all about, then why not give up meeting women altogether and stick with prostitution?

I am quite happy to have sex with someone I just met, if that's all I'm looking for at the time. But as a woman, I don't usually want to have sex straight away with someone I think I might like to have something more with. I guess there are two main reasons for that - I don't want to come across as too forward/too desperate/too easy AND the afterglow of sex makes it difficult to look at the relationship potential objectively. Some women fall for guys the minute they have sex with them and by the time the rose-coloured lenses of lust wear off, they're stuck in a crappy relationship with a crappy man who just happened to be great in bed. I'm sure it must happen to men as well.

[Rubber Nursey]

"Well there you are. Being friendly while carrying a concealed vagina. You felonious teaser you!"

What are you suggesting, Sporadic? That I don't conceal it? Don't you think that's likely to exacerbate the problem somewhat??? ;)

[Joe Zop]

And which problem would that exacerbate, RN? The teasing problem or the not getting laid problem? :D I can guarantee you that if you're going to be leaning over the bar like that -- regardless of how high it is -- the gentlemen in question are going to generate at least a few ideas.


By the way, would you please explain this? You said, "For the record, I would have been quite happy to break the drought and sleep with this guy, if he hadn't been so bloody crude about it." (So, before he was crude there was a possibility?)

Because you then said, "All he had to do was tell me what he was thinking and I would never have gone up there in the first place." (Saying, "no, there wasn't really a possibility.")

I've got a pretty good idea of the answer, but I'd like to hear your thought processes here, especially when you say, "Men and women have both gotta stop screwing with each other's brains and be upfront about what they want."

Sooooo, what exactly did YOU want here? (Other than that the guy wouldn't be a slobbering boor, which goes without saying.)

[Rubber Nursey]

Yes...before he was crude it could definitely have been a possibility. He was a nice guy, we'd laughed together all night and let's face it - I was drunk and horny! lol But the fact is, I'm only really saying that in hindsight. I hadn't actually considered it on the night. He didn't give me any idea whatsoever that he was interested in me and I was only looking at him as a new friend, not a possible conquest.

As for me saying that I wouldn't have gone to the room in the first place if he'd told me what I was thinking - that's probably only in his case, again in hindsight. If he'd propositioned me that crudely in the bar I wouldn't have gone to his room. But if he'd let me know what was on his mind (more politely of course!) I could have at least made a decision beforehand. Don't forget - until that night, I hadn't really been in the company of men for a good many months. I wasn't even THINKING about picking up! It was kind of a surprise to suddenly find myself back 'on the scene'.

What do I want? I want to be worshipped like the goddess I am. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

I've got another theory. Could being long-term participants in P4P be making us forget how things work in the 'real world'? In a sex industry transaction, I know exactly where I stand. I know what to expect from him and exactly what is expected of me. Out in the real world, I'm a bit lost. There is flirting and innuendo and no clear ground rules. Too much room for misinterpretation. Too much dancing around the subject.

This would sound strange to anyone outside the industry reading this - have we got so used to the honesty of the sex industry that we can no longer deal with the dishonesty of dating???

[Joe Zop]

Interesting theory, RN -- and I was just yanking your chain a bit, btw, as while I also dislike game players I also think plenty of people simply can't articulate to themselves what it is they're doing or want because they're not actually sure, which can manifest itself to others as game-playing. And of course, as per your encounter, plenty of people also lack any sense of flair or style when in the moment. But I'm not so sure I'd see it as honesty versus dishonesty -- more like simplicity versus complexity.

There is certainly great clarity in P4P, but that's because there's also basically utter simplicity in the whole thing that eliminates most interactive human feelings, desires or needs beyond two very simple ones (money and sex) or most other complexities. It's a basic commercial transaction, same as buying milk, complicated only by what the transaction is about. That's great, but that's not really anything like a real male-female human relationship because it's far too controlled and one-dimensional. In a real relationship the boundaries are far less clear and far more dynamic.

Personally, I think that being in P4P situations that are straightforward transactions like brothels, MPs, or escort services have done little or nothing to help me understand women or dating or flirting. On the other hand, places like beer bars, go-gos and so on have helped to some extent, as there is flirting, evaluating, and decision-making that takes place, and it's possible to extend it pretty much as long as you'd care to do so. And to me, that's actually my favorite part of the process.

[Rubber Nursey]

"It's a basic commercial transaction, same as buying milk, complicated only by what the transaction is about. That's great, but that's not really anything like a real male-female human relationship because it's far too controlled and one-dimensional"

I'm starting to think I like it that way better! Someone's changed the rules on me since I was last on the scene. I don't know how to play the game any more. I'm waiting impatiently for a time when I can make out a list of all the things I want and don't want in a partner, and then order the perfect bloke from an online warehouse. Delivery in 30 minutes or I get him free.

[Rubber Nursey]

Actually, I should say that my comments about the guy on the first night were in response to Cash Works' post about 'teasing' - I was just suggesting that sometimes guys accuse girls of teasing when they actually just misread the signals.

My gripes about dishonesty shouldn't really have made their way into that post. It's just what's on my mind right now.

[Joe Zop]

Plus you get to send him back for just a restocking fee if he doesn't meet your specifications? :D

So if that's really what you want, why have you had such trouble of late? Surely you, as an attractive horny woman, can just find a specimen on the street, say, look, I want to borrow you for an hour to get sweaty and then not see you again, and manage to get at least a couple of guys willing to have a throw under those conditions! Those are basically the rules you know fairly well, right? ;)

[Rubber Nursey]

Because
a) if I could find a man - ANY man - on the street, I would do it. But you could be waiting for 18 months before a man would even walk past. Trust me...I've been waiting and watching! :) and,
b) because that's not really what I want. It would certainly be the easy way to a quick fix, but its not what I'm ultimately looking for.

[Joe Zop]

Ah, I figured b) was at the heart of things -- but of course that means a basic conflict with the P4P construct, right, no matter how attractive it may be on the surface as a short-term fix?

As far as a) goes -- geez, you really are in the hinterlands, aren't you? :)

[Rubber Nursey]

Not necessarily - there is also the carefully planned, rule-laden parttime lover/open relationship type option. We agree upfront about what we want and how its gonna work. Maybe it turns into something more and maybe it goes nowhere - either way there are clear guidelines in place to get me started!

And yes - I am absolutely in the middle of nowhere.

[Joe Zop]

Yes, started. But a "carefully planned, rule-laden parttime lover/open relationship" isn't exactly a P4P type scenario, and turning it into something else can be every bit as complicated as the dating scene, since agreeing on a scenario with two parties clear on things and then changing it is no simpler than going through the process of discovering what expectations/desires are via dating. One party can be perfectly happy with the arrangement and not want complications -- this is straight out of the American women thread.

Of course, the major bonus to the former approach is you're boinking while you're figuring out as opposed to figuring out after the date whether you're going to!

[Sporadic]

Open relationship? ROTFLMAO! Since when has that ever worked?

Come now, sooner or later, one or the other of the two will have disproportionate feelings and WHAM! not so "open" any more.

That kind of relationship is harder to find than hen´s teeth.

Sort of like perfect socialism, sounds good in theory...

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Joe Zop]

Not to mention the fact that if you've been waiting for months for a decent man to walk by because you're in the middle of nowhere, an open relationship with one who finally does may well mean you'll both be going after the livestock or pets :D

[Rubber Nursey]

"Of course, the major bonus to the former approach is you're boinking while you're figuring out as opposed to figuring out after the date whether you're going to!"

That was the basis of my master plan - hadn't given the rest of it much thought! LOL

[Rubber Nursey]

Ok, let's get this conversation out of my (lonely) bedroom and back into the brothel, where it belongs. This question may not be totally 'Morality' related, but then again...neither is my sexlife. ;)

So tell me boys - what was your most embarrassing P4P experience?

[Sporadic]

RN, This may sound strange, but I honestly can not think of a really embarrassing example. Possibly the "walk of shame" through a hotel lobby with someone unlikely to be my wife, but that is about it.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rolly Polly]

i once had an escort come over to my apartment and told her before hand to dress conservatively. when she knocked in the door she only had about 4 threads of clothing on and just as i opened the door my across the hall neighbors came out with their 2 little kids. i just smiled and let her in, but for weeks after that i would peek out of my apartment before leaving in an attempt to avoid seeing them.

[Joe Zop]

I guess I fall into the same category as Sporadic -- I saw RN's post pretty much as soon as it went up, thought, ooh, that's a good one, let's see... and came up blank. I'm still blank the next day, though I'm sure there's gotta be an incident. The sexual stuff really doesn't qualify -- cumming too quickly, not at all, losing erections, etc. You screw enough, that stuff happens. I don't really ever actually feel the "walk of shame" to be honest, as I've always figured it's none of anyone's business what or who I'm doing. So I'm still thinking.

[Sporadic]

May I turn the tables here slightly?

RN, Please tell us if there is anything in particular a customer can, or can not do to make a provider happy.

Please, no platitudes about paying well and finishing quickly (or being Antonio Banderas.) I would really like to have an authentic opinion.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Stoner]

Can I ask a slightly serious morality question, folks? Would love to hear your opinion as well, RN, since, of course, a distinguished woman's honest opinion is worth gold. (I always enjoy reading your posts. )

If a well known escort class provider was noticed to have a visible STD, should a monger feel compelled to NOT tell others about it?

In the State of Maine, a provider named "LL" came down with an std. A monger noticed it, and later mentioned it on WSG.

Of course, this came back in full force upon the provider since she is very popular in Maine and there are MANY yahoo groups of providers and clients communicating back and forth.

Turned out, members and lurkers of WSG frequent these other boards and someone anonymous brung it up "publically" so to speak for the provider to address publically.

This became a real firestorm. Some galvonized behind the provider, others around freedom to speak of the monger to say what he's seen.

1. Should the monger tell others of this or keep it to themselves?
2. Is there an nettiquette for this sort of thing? Being accused of an STD is a strong thing, but in all honesty, its not a big deal. Mongers, of course, come down with an STD at some point despite safe, and get it dealt with fairly easily. Yet if a provider does, well...the double standard appears to be HEAVY.

Golden rule says that one should do unto others as blah blah blah...so keep your damn mouth shut about it unless you want someone to blow the beans on you.

3. Is the monger morally compelled to speak up about it however. I mean, if a provider who is known for going bareback on occassion comes down with a form of herpes, thats pretty significant information.

Obviously she's not going to tell anyone, and its a two way street...he got himself exposed for not practicing safe sex. He too is possibly infected by her...so he, too, could get "singled out" if you will to other providers and avoided like the plague.

I'd love to see some opinions on this matter.

[Pokey]

Stoner, thanks for the serious question regarding if you should report a STD. I was getting sick to my stomach waiting for the response to, Sporadic question, "RN, Please tell us if there is anything in particular a customer can, or can not do to make a provider happy."

Who the fuck cares, you are paying good money, they are there to please you, not the other way around. But just the other day I was in Mexico getting a BJ from this girl, who only wanted to do it for one minute, so I started eating out her pussy, just to make her continue with the BJ, but when I was ready to fuck her, I quit eating, even if she wanted me to continue.

But, back to your question. Yes you should report it even if it's a rumor, better be safe then sorry. I do have to tell you that most of these are false reports from other jeolous women, or jilted lovers or customers of the sex worker.

Who knows why they do it, but I have never really seen a report turn out true, and once the girl gets a bad reputation it seems to stay with her, even after she cleared the STD problem up.

[Travis Bickle 2]

I think you should report an STD only if you have first-hand knowledge of it.

SW's are notoriously famous for back stabbing and spreading rumor's about each other and it's a good way for a passive-agressive john to get even with a provider that hurt his feelings or ripped him off.

So not only would I not start a rumor unless I knew for sure, I would receive such information with a grain of salt.

Civ2K

[Joe Zop]

Stoner, IMHO the first stop is the provider herself, and then it depends on what we're talking about. If you're talking about the clap, then that's something curable and if the provider takes care of it then the only viable reporting issue is the fact that it's questionable whether the provider practices safe sex, which guys might see as good or bad. If we're talking HIV, then damn right it's viable information. Herpes, hmm -- yes if she's not taking care of it and it seeing clients while contagious.

But I don't see where curable disease info is viable unless the provider doesn't deal with it.

[Rubber Nursey]

Better grab a bucket, Pokey - I'm gonna answer Sporadic's question.

As we all know, some girls are in it for the love of it and others would rather jump off a tall building than have your hands on them, so the closest I can get to some 'one-size-fits-all' answers would be these...
* Treat her with the same respect/dignity/human kindness that you would any other service provider.
* Respect her personal boundaries
* Be gentle!! Unless you're in a bondage session, most girls like to be handled with care.
* Tell her when she's doing something RIGHT. (And if she's a brothel worker - tell her boss how fantastic she was. People tend to only speak up when things are going wrong).
* Don't ask personal questions that make her feel uncomfortable - you wouldn't want her asking about your wife or kids or job, so give her the same courtesy. In most cases these questions also force us to lie to you, which makes us feel even worse.
* Laugh! Sex is supposed to be fun!!

[Sporadic]

Stoner,

Moral obligation to report? No. The whole idea behind fora like this is to facilitate back channel infomation.

If I knew for sure, I would have no problem reporting it in a FR.
IMHO, any bareback FS is folly.


Pokey: For someone as sensitive as you...
Who the fuck cares, you are paying good money I am not surprised that you get an upset tummy now and then.

Cheers,

Sporadic

[Rubber Nursey]

Stoner (welcome! :) )

The thought of discussing a woman's sexual health on a public forum because someone has 'seen' what they presumed to be an STI, is horrifying to me. There are sooooo many lumps and bumps and rashes that a woman can get that are not remotely infectious and she could very well just have one of them. Or if she does have an STI, as others have already said, most of those can be quickly treated, never to return again. I also agree that often the story is a complete fabrication, started by ex-boyfriends, brothel owners, or p*ssed off workmates, in order to destroy an innocent woman's reputation. IMHO, branding a worker as 'diseased' in a public forum, based solely on the evidence of a client (who is likely not medically trained), is terribly poor form.

[True Hobbiest]

To: RN, OMR and anyone else who really gives a shit anymore.

All of my post on this matter can be found on the US/ME, MA areas.


Since I was the one who initially posted my findings about LL here on WSG for the benefit of my Monger brethren and not on those other boards which I am also a member and I have followed the banter about LL. But then again "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one".

First things first, I have known Lisa and have used her services quite frequently over the last 2 years, as I had said she was awesome. When I noticed her "affliction" I told her about it right there and then, that is when she gave me the heat rash etc. excuse. I have been around for a long time and I know an STD/STI when I see one, no mistake made on my part, my background has trained me to recoginize what is and what is not a STD/STI.

I felt that the Mongers on WSG should be warned. Yes, I realize that this is not a "closed" club and that what ever is printed here can make it's way onto other boards, but I did not want to hurt LL in anyway, no malice intended. The turkey who took my WSG posting and posted it on her/LL's own board with-out even removing my ID was the one with "poor form". I do know that she has retired because of this publicity. Well she has retired before in fact she did this just a few months ago ( if any one out there was truly a regular LL friend they would have known that, mostly due to man issues in her life), but then again it could have also been for health reasons. I can assure you that she will be back "cured" of coarse and believe me I will see her again, medical science is amazing.

So, would I do this again? Absolutly! If I found a provider with "something" that could harm one of my fellow mongers I would post it here on WSG and only on WSG just as I report my great experiences. Afterall we report on track marks, pimps in the background, LE and possible rip offs, why not STDs? We all know the chance that we are taking, let's improve those odds if we can in our favor.

I see your point RN, but I am not a disgruntled "John, boyfriend, etc. nor am I an alarmist who shuuders at any pimple, red spot or foul smell I may cum upon, afterall if I did I would have quit this hobby after my first experience 28 years ago. In one of my past lives I taught "health care" to teenagers at a health clinic so believe me, I was not making any assumptions or miscalculations about what I had seen on this lovely lady, it was text book.

If any of my fellow mongers cum across a provider in my CT, MA, ME, RI and ME stomping grounds with an issue that could affect my health and the health of those around me then please let me know about it, either publicly in the Forum or PM me. After all isn't that what WSG is all about?

Thank you,
TH

PS: BY the way I met this awesome chick in Fitchburg the other day, BBBJTCIM, no spitting, cute, sweet and safe. Now this is what it is all about!

[Rubber Nursey]

True Hobbiest,

Please accept my apology if my post sounded like a personal attack. I didn't go looking for the post in question, nor the poster, so I was in no way directing my comment at you in particular - I just gave my opinion in general terms, in answer to Stoner's general question of whether mongers should share that sort of info on the forum. No offence was intended.

I stand by my belief that that sort of personal information should probably not be divulged on a public forum, without very good cause and a reliable source. (Obviously in your case you do have sexual health knowledge, but a lot of other clients don't). You guys enjoy complete and utter anonymity as mongers - the girls you talk about don't have the same luxury. One small comment can obviously turn into something so huge it that forces a girl to lose her source of income, as has apparently happened in your case. Some of the regs here might remember a psycho stalker client I had myself a while back, who not only slandered my name on a local monger's forum, but posted my home address and personal mobile number as well. I know how quickly news travels on the web and how impossible it is to undo the damage once it's so widespread and I couldn't imagine what it would be like to have something so personal made so public. Especially when in most cases all it takes is a few pills and the offending STI is gone.

I will concede that if the worker was a 'serial offender' and had an incurable infection or was refusing to treat a curable one, it makes sense that you would probably want to let your mates know of the risks. However, I'd like you guys to consider the flip side for a moment. Over here (and in a lot of other cities around the world) sex workers have internet forums of their own. They also have 'Ugly Mug' reports and chatrooms where they discuss 'bad' clients. How would you or the other mongers here feel if a local sex worker found something nasty on your penis and posted it on the board for all the local girls to read about?

I don't know - this is only my opinion and nobody listens to a word I say anyway. :) I just think that if you really think a girl has something, perhaps posting that 'bareback fans might want to think twice' or 'her personal hygiene is not the best' or something else a little less specific, would be much kinder.

[Joe Zop]

RN, even though I stated that I feel posting such STD information should be a last resort, how exactly is posting stuff in an "Ugly Mug" chatroom any different? Some sex worker has a beef with a customer (and I readily acknowledge there are some who are utter jerks, mysoginists and even violent) posts info about them in such a place, and the customer can be boycotted. This can certainly also be an instance where it's coming from someone with their own agenda. (And, still, if I knew a customer were HIV positive I'd sure as hell want to post that to warn fellow workers!)

I guess the real question comes down to the issue of what the standard should be for posting specific personal information. Reviews or field reports are obviously subjective YMMV things, but negative statements about character, disease, violent tendencies, etc., are less obviously so. This is a person-based business, so whatever is posted has by its nature a different impact than does a negative restaurant review (or, to parallel better, a report of an unhygienic kitchen.)

Oh, and yeah, nobody listens to what you have to say. Right. :D

[Cash Works]

RN,

Embarrassing moments in mongering - I suppose mine was a variation on Sporadic's "walk of shame". The reason I'm calling it a variation is due to the fact that it was a lack of companionship going up to my room that brought it about.

Over a decade ago, on my second trip to Bangkok, I was staying at the same hotel as my first trip. The first trip, however, I had a room that was accessed from the parking lot, not via the lobby, I still had to get my key from the front desk, but I thought it was a little more private, but the ladies at the front desk were apparently still able to keep tabs on the lady friends I was bringing back with me (I was like a kid in a candy store).

On my second trip, about six months later, the ladies in reception remembered me from my first trip, but gave me a room that was accessed through the lobby. For the first week on that trip, I was pretty much exploring "incall" places around town and hadn't thought about bringing anyone back to the hotel. On day number 4, while picking up my key at the front desk (with lots of other guests present & looking on), one of the ladies asked me if I needed a doctor - confused, I said "No. Why do you ask?" Her response was basically that she had noticed I hadn't brought any young ladies back to the hotel this trip & since on my last trip I was bringing back so many different ladies every day, she thought maybe I was sick!

CW

[Rubber Nursey]

the ugly mug report is a written record (on paper) of violent offenders that's circulated around the industry - guys that the police can't be bothered dealing with. i do know there is one guy in there who raped a girl and then told her he was hiv positive - the girl never tested positive, so i guess we'll never know whether he was for real or just scaring her, but he was in the report for the [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) anyway, not the infection. (just as an aside...i would have thought that to publish and/or make public people's hiv status would be illegal anyway, because of anti-discrimination/anti-vilification laws?)

as for discussing 'bad' clients online, that's largely about violent clients as well (amongst general working stuff, of course), and it could also include anything from psycho stalkers to guys who pull the condom off during sex. but i personally - and i, too, can tell the difference between an sti and a normal lump or bump - would not write anything that specific about a client online. i would do exactly like i said in my last post and hint that perhaps girls should be a little more careful around him. who's to say that the minute i told him he had an infection, he didn't run straight to the doctor and get it treated? i could be slandering him for nothing. i would always post if a guy asked for bareback services or tried to take the condom off - and that usually lets other girls know that he takes risks and is more likely to be infected with lots of nasties. (that goes the same for all you guys posting about girls who offer bareback). otherwise i would question his 'hygiene' or something like that.

and no - nobody listens to me...unless i say something controversial, in which case they yell at me! lol all i'm saying is that if i'm asked for my personal opinion, that's what people get. a personal opinion or experience, not fact. nobody has to agree with me!

[JustSumFun]

RN: I had one really embarrassing episode recently. I called up a lady and she gave me such screwy directions that I was hopping in and out of my car and driving around like mad to arrive at her place. Finally reached the place she asked me to come to and waited at the bus stop she specified. Now this is about 7 pm in the evening and the area was a residential area, with as expected at that time of the evening, a lot of families out for a walk.

I noticed this huge woman walking towards the bus stop, along with a young girl with stunning figure who I recognised to be the lady I was supposed to meet. I hid behind a car and tried to make myself as small as possible. I am small to start with ;) She looked around and could not spot anyone who could be me. we had never seen each other. She called me on the mobile and asked me where I was. I directed her to the car behind which I was hiding. she came over nodded her head and walked by and I followed.

As happens, when a beautiful lady is walking on the road, all male eyes, and quite a few jealous female eyes, were following her. And they all saw me following her as well. I felt a 100 pairs of eyes burning holes in my back and was sweating quite profusely. We finally reached the compound of the building she lives in and the watchman looked suspiciously at me. Got into the lift and when the lift doors opened on her floor there was this family waiting to get in. I was sweating buckets. They watched us go into her apartment and then got into the lift.

The events so spooked me that Mr. Happy was extremely unhappy and refused to stand up and salute the lady. I left without leaving much of an impression. No reflection on the lady. She was gorgeous and under different circumstances I would be knocking on her door every other day. But I dont have the nerve to run that gauntlet ever again.

Justfun

[Rubber Nursey]

Haha!! Thank you JustSumFun! For the record, that's the exact same feeling I always had walking into swanky hotel lobbies to meet a client. It felt like every pair of eyes was watching me and every single person was thinking "She's going up there to shag some stranger's brains out". It was even worse walking out into the lobby again an hour later - where every single person then seemed to be wearing a knowing smile and checking to see whether my zip was fastened properly!! :)

[Joe Zop]

I know that in the majority of states here it is required by law that you disclose your HIV status to anyone (including sexual partners) who might be exposed to the virus. As long as someone is doing that there's no issue, as your partner then can exercise informed consent. Your point regarding anti-villification laws might be correct -- certainly there might be a case made for slander or defamation if someone knowingly communicates a falsehood -- but that was precisely my point regarding the standard of posting. How is circulating a list that says "so-and-so is violent, avoid him" any different than people saying "so-and-so's seeing clients and has an STD"? I can see it being so if we're talking about a list of people with convictions, but if it's "guys the police can't be bothered with" then where's the line here?

[Rubber Nursey]

The Ugly Mugs reports are a nationwide initiative that the police know about and, in theory, support. Not just any old complaint makes it into the Ugly Mugs. A lot of them are incidents that have actually been reported to the police, but either they 'don't have the resources' to deal with it or the girl has refused to sign a statement or testify against the perpetrator, so they can't follow it through. Other reports are taken by outreach workers, often on the scene immediately after the incident, or when the girl is referred to them for counselling.

As far as HIV goes, I can understand clients wanting to know if a girl has HIV - same goes for us girls wanting to know about you clients. But I don't think posting about HIV is quite the same as posting about, say, the clap. You can't just 'see' that a girl has HIV. It would HAVE to be guesswork (and we only have to look in some of the safe sex sections here to see what some of the myths are about HIV infection!), in which case, I don't believe a client has any right to post that 'guess' on the board. On the other hand, if a sex worker did her lawful duty and TOLD a client that she was HIV+ before the booking, there probably isn't a real problem if he posts it on the board - because it's a guaranteed fact and she is readily admitting it to clients anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter where they hear it from first.

And I still think that you shouldn't brand someone as having an STI, without taking into consideration the fact that they may have already had it treated by the time the post is made. They may not have even known they HAD it! Does the average client who spots a rash while he's down there, actually point it out to the worker??

[Joe Zop]

Thanks for the info on the Ugly Mugs -- though it still seems like a "conviction without actual conviction" kind of situation, same as the STD issue. (And an actual on-paper thing would also fall more squarely into areas of potential action for defamation, though obviously if there's been a criminal complaint that's different.) But what about the online chatrooms you mentioned? Do the same standards apply?

And again I said I thought the first thing that needed to be done was talk to the sex worker/client, that I didn't believe information about curable STIs was something that should be posted, and that the only reason I could see for posting was if there was willful disregard or refusal to correct the situation.

The basic problem with electronic posting in any such situation is that it lives forever and circulates every which way.

[Rubber Nursey]

I guess it is a 'conviction without a conviction' but unfortunately, until the police and courts start taking sexual assault and violence against sex workers seriously, the Ugly Mugs report is the best way of protecting girls from (quite often repeat) violent offenders.

That's where my sarcasm came from before when I said that it listed men that the cops couldn't be bothered with - because unfortunately, some police like to use the Ugly Mugs as an *alternative* to prosecution, rather than the last resort that it was designed to be. They will often convince a girl that they have no chance of success in the courts and that the best thing they can do is warn other girls about the guy, rather than pressing charges. I won't say whether it's because the police know that the courts don't take these things seriously, or whether they just don't see fit to follow up on sex workers' complaints - but I wouldn't be surprised if more often than not, it's the latter (especially when it involves street-based workers).

As for the workers forums, they are no different to this forum; where people can largely say what they want unless it's against forum guidelines. I'm not a moderator so I don't have anything to do with content on any of the sites - however, as a poster I would be just as quick to say there what I have said here about taking care not to drag someone's rep through the mud.

[Rubber Nursey]

You honestly can't think of any embarrassing moments???

[Joe Zop]

Guess I'm shameless :D as I've been trying for a couple of days to think of something. There are minor things and little foibles -- you know, forgot something, out of this or that, etc. but nothing that really comes to mind as being anything memorable.

[Dickhead]

RN if you will PM me a dirty story I will e-mail you a picture of a $100 bill.

[Rubber Nursey]

Since you're a mate, just make it a fiver. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

Yay! Another embarrassing moment. (Very bloody embarrassing actually!) Thanks, Cash Works. :)

What is this? Are you guys afraid to share, or are you all just so damn classy that you never get into those situations?? ;)

[Vonavi]

I'm a new member, so if this topic has been addressed in an earlier post, pardon me. What about the issue of trafficking? I share the same moral outlook on P4P as (I'd imagine) nearly every other Forum user, but the prospect of wandering into a trafficking situation troubles me. In my P4P experiences (all in Eastern Europe, BTW), I don't believe I ever was with a SW who had been coerced into the business. I say this because I saw no telltale signs of coercion--no nervous looks from the woman, no thugs lurking about--but then, what does that prove? Really, my question is what is a monger's responsibility in ascertaining whether a SW is plying her trade "voluntarily," i.e., not under physical or psychological duress?

[My Alias]

Changing the topic, I guess some prostitutes from Guatemala City formed a football/soccer team, then got irate when the team was booted from a tournament. Here's the story, http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page//0,4057,10864110%5E13762,00.html

[Gorilla69]

Found this through a newsletter I get:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1306267,00.html

How do I make this look like a link? I have not figured that one out?

Pretty interesting view of the morality and use of prostitution and mongering as ways of life.

[Rubber Nursey]

That was brilliant. Thank you Gorilla69!

It's like that guy reached into my head, pulled out every feeling I've ever had about prostitution (and relationships!) and put it on paper.

As for this...
"Of all the sexual perversions, monogamy is the most unnatural"
...truer words were never spoken!!

[GettingTang]

Although I fully subscribe to the idea that monogamy is not natural, I do believe that if you're in a serious relationship with a woman, as a man, you CAN, make the choice to be monogamous based on the power of "love." Sure, naturally and instinctively it is a sacrifice, but with true love, comes many forms of sacrifice!

Also, nature has a way of always ruling the earth. You see this with over population of animals and plant life, etc. Nature always wins. As humans, if you always give into our natural instinctive desires, then we too shall fall prey to "nature" Ever heard of diseases? I believe this is a form of nature running it's course. We are fortunate as human beings to have much more control over our own destiny then animals.

Tang~!

[Cash Works]

Gorilla,

Excellent article!

At the risk of sounding vain, I'm going to have to say that I think that writer was reading some of the posts on this thread! At least half of the article sounded an awful lot like the discussion that came up from my comment "p4p is the only honest way to get laid". I have to admit though, he does a better job than me at putting pen to paper - or, in this case, finger to keyboard.

CW

[Gorilla69]

OK, guys, I have been married 25 years to the same woman, but love my strange/different pussy when I can get it. Yes, I am a nasty, immoral, horny male who will fuck at the drop of a hat, as long as the subject is fairly attractive and smells OK. OK, she does not have to be fairly attractive, just not fat and ugly. My bottom line is she had to be better looking than my wife.

I have a friend who I have been with a few times when she is pissed off at the old man, another one who has shared the wonders of web-cam sex with me and many encounters with SW's when I lived in Seattle, plus a few since. Now, I can commit, in a way, but not without some variety of some type.

I now live in a place were getting P4P is next to impossible; and those that are around are 1's and 2's (a few -1's that I would make pay ME). So, the oppotunity for P4P is limited to trips out of town. Now, that said, can I do without strange pussy? Yeah, I can, but then my old lady does put out on a fairly regular schedule, as long as I am nice and do not press her when she is not in the mood. Frankly, she is actually pretty sexy and good at it, too, but the frequency is not what I want. At almost 50 I busted 2 nuts with her Sunday morning within an hour!

I think prostitution should be legal, for all of our sakes, but that will never happen in this state. So, I look for that nice, clean playmate near my age or even a younger one, but discreet. In the meantime my right hand is extremely happy.

[Rubber Nursey]

Getting Tang,

When I am in love with someone, I don't even think about sleeping with anyone else. Actually, when I was in my last relationship I ran into the love of my life (you know the one...that childhood sweetheart that you never really get over) and he put the hard word on me. I refused without giving it a second thought, because I was in love with my partner. (Kicking myself now, of course!!!)

My problem is that I have a very short attention span. After a while, I get to that point in my relationship where my SO has become my best friend and they just can't light my fire any more. Even if the sex in my relationship is awesome, its just not the same as that spark that comes from the touch of a new lover. So I go off in search of something new, even though I may still care very much about my SO. That's one of the reasons why I don't want a fulltime relationship any more. I just can't be trusted!

But I think what you said about natural selection and monogamy was very interesting. Religious people may also say that sexually transmitted disease is retribution for committing adultery and/or having casual sex. Monogamy is certainly a great way to avoid STDs, but you have to be 100% sure that BOTH parties are practicing it for it to be effective! I'll take my chances with condoms and lots of sexy strangers. :)

[Rubber Nursey]

Welcome Vonavi! :)

I would like to think that most mongers would avoid obvious exploitation and I would also like to think that if you were with a girl who told you that she was being abused and asked for your help, that you would do something about it (call the cops or welfare agencies or whatever), but aside from that, I'm not sure that you would have too much responsibility.

If a girl willingly accepts your money for sex (or at least appears to be doing it willingly) how can you possibly be expected to know whether or not she is being coerced? Most of the available statistics/research seems to point at sex slavery and exploitation being the exception, not the rule. Making an effort to only frequent workers that you believe are working of their own free will, is the best you can do. You can't beat yourself up wondering what happens when you leave.

[Pokey]

Vonavi, I don't think trafficking is happening in such large numbers that you would really have to worry about it. Usually, its on a much smaller scale then the media would like us to believe.

Like I posted in the past most of the problems are from lying sex recuiters or immigration smugglers making the girls pay for their fee by fucking as many men as possible. I think the problem with the Asian's Tong" and "Triads" are real in some places, it's just not likey we would run into it.

But, Vonavi, if you happen on forced sex worker, I also hope you would help her, but I don't see anything wrong with helping yourself to a little pussy first. In fact make it a condition of your helping the girl, because you could be risking your life, time and money to help this girl out.

Did anyone see the latest news on the miltary policy in the US on visiting prostitutes in foreign countries?. The conservatives in our government want to make it a crime for visiting a sex worker in foreign places like Thailand, Vietnam, maybe Mexico, etc, etc.

The excuse they give is having sex with a prostitutes
promotes "trafficking". I guess some parts of this is true, as I written before the US and World Bank promoted sex, and I still believe the IMF and World Bank, see the selling of pussy as a way to pay down the debt of monies owed to them.

I don't think trafficking is the real reason why the US Government wants to put miltary men in prison for fucking a sex worker. But since this site isn't a political site, I won't get into the reasons why they are doing it.

I don't have the article saved, but if anyone is interested I'm sure I can find it again.

[My Alias]

I was wondering if anybody's been following this story, http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~2414505,00.html, about a former call girl from Oakland, Calif., who put herself through Stanford Law School by turning high-dollar tricks. Even though she's not been arrested by the feds, they've seized cash from a safety deposit box and are trying to get about $61,000 from her in back taxes.

[My Alias]

I never knew the streetwalkers of Vancouver started a book club, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1835&ncid=1835&e=1&u=/cpress/20040927/ca_pr_on_od/hooker_book_club.

[Rock Dog]

hmmmm,

let's say a girl has been forced into the sex trade through [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) and is an unwilling participant. if i have sex with her, wouldn't that be roughly equivalent to [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), since she didn't have a choice and was in that situation against her will? therefore whatever we did would be against her will even if i paid her for the service.

just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this one.

rock

[Star Dreamer]

Pokey,

I posted a couple articles on the military anti-prostitution effort on the WSG Law Enforcement board.

[Joe Zop]

Well, South Korea definitely has been one of those places where trafficking has been a problem, but I hardly think a rule to get GIs to swear off sex is going to get anywhere. Is it somehow better to have GIs on leave going after the general local female population to try to get laid? One would presume such a rule would only be applied under the most egregious of circumstances.

[Rolly Polly]

why was the rule made in the first place? was it not for all the bad press that overseas soldiers have been getting with [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) accusations? not to mention many times in countries that are super strict regarding crime.

so the question is, was this rule put into place for enforcement purposes or was it a smoke screen to ward off future accusations?

quite frankly, i would imagine that the goverment could care less if the soldiers are banging away overseas, but come one cry of [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and the poor soldier will be made an example of to show a "we really do care about your women" gesture to the offended country.

[Rubber Nursey]

With all due respect to the American's amongst us, I think it's just another Bush Administration effort to 'Christianise' (or, in his eyes perhaps, 'Americanise') the rest of the world. Australia has also been accused a number of times by America of encouraging trafficking/exploitation of women, because of our so-called 'liberal' views on prostitution (which is an absolute crock, because decriminalisation decreases the risk of exploitation in every sector of the sex industry). He's said similar things about many other countries during his time as President.

We have enough dopey politicians in our own countries making up stupid laws - we don't need governments in other countries doing it for us as well!

[Cash Works]

Pokey,

I think you and I finally agree on something! I've never been in the military, so I'm not all that familiar with the extra rules of conduct (UCMJ) that they have to put up with, but I know that it's based heavily on a very conservative political outlook, which tends to be very puritanical in origin.

Anybody ever heard of "separation of church & state?" I believe that was one of the basic principles on which the founding fathers of the USA based the constitution.

Prostitution and the military have been linked for the entirety of human history. In the past, this has been widely accepted largely due to the reason that JZ mentioned - the locals would rather have all the military guys screwing prostitutes than their own daughters. Ever heard of "camp followers?" Not all "camp followers" were prostitutes, but many of them were. I read once that the term "hookers" was derrived during the US civil war for the "camp followers" that tagged along with Union General Hooker (did a google search on "general hooker" & this was the first link, it's mentioned in the last paragraph - http://www.civilwarhome.com/hookbio.htm).

A few years ago, a friend of mine told me that if you ever find yourself in a town near a US military installation, and want to find the p4p action, visit the Military Police headquarters on base and get a list of all the "off-limits" bars & businesses. Most of these will be "off-limits to US military personnel" because of their association with p4p action. So, I would say that the US military's "frowning upon" p4p by its people is not a new thing, but this new legislation you mentioned may be making the penalties for participation tougher.

CW

[Joe Zop]

rolly polly, i hardly think charging a soldier with frequenting prostitutes is going to do much to quell a [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) accusation, as that's essentially inferentially blaming the victim. i doubt that would be well-received by an outraged place -- it would most likely only make things worse. and wouldn't it be expected that sexually frustrated soldiers might be more rather than less inclined to such violence?

but rn, even though i think this is a completely stupid policy i don't see how it's about "christianizing" other parts of the world. christianizing the us armed forces, yes, and screw that, making a statement about trafficking, yes, and a typically inept and inelegant one at that. but all countries set rules for their soldiers and saying, for example, that you will dress in standard uniform at all times doesn't mean it's an attack on the casual dress of another place. this is a code of behavior for members of a specific group who have agreed to live by such codes, not something at all enforceable on other people.

[Rolly Polly]

Joe,

That may be true, BUT it's still the American way! Your proof is in the recent "abuse scandal" in Iraq as well as any time there is a friendly fire incident.

The outrage is the same and the US Government handles it the same way everytime....put a soldier on trial.

I never made the claim that it would make all the anamosity go away, but for some reason it makes the Government sleep better at night.