The Morality of Prostitution [Archive] - Page 9

Star Dreamer

09-30-04, 01:09

If I recall correctly, there are still lots of "archaic" rules in the UCMJ such as those prohibiting dueling, sodomy, and adultery.

I haven't heard of any military people dueling lately, but if they got rid of all the guys (and now girls) that have adulterous relationships and receive/give BJ and DATY, there wouldn't be many people left to fight the nation's wars. Even the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (General Joe Ralston) a few years ago got caught having an affair while he was separated from his wife. Due to his high visibility position, he didn't get the top job (Chairman), but he didn't get tossed out of the military, either. He got a plum assignment in Europe for his last assignment and retired as a 4-star.

The JAGs will probably make examples of some poor young enlisted guys who gets caught P2P in a highly visible locations with trafficking problems like Korea, the Philippines, Thailand, or Okinawa, but there's not enough MPs to watch all the P2P joints, escorts, and SW in this world or JAGs to prosecute them all if they get caught.

U.S. officers have always had to face the catch-all "conduct unbecoming of a commissioned officer" article of the UCMJ, but I would hope our commissioned officers who P2P would have enough common sense to use enough discretion to avoid getting caught in the first place.

If a military person gets caught and charged under civil law jurisdiction, it's practically just as bad as getting caught by military authorities. Worst case, a guy might get bagged by civil authorities and face further discipline from the military after the civil authorities are finished with him (like the way off-post DWIs are handled for example).

IMHO this proposed anti-prostitution change to the UCMJ is a "feel good" provision to placate a few certain nations that can't deal with trafficking of women on their own and curry favor with certain domestic voting blocs. It will be practically impossible to enforce on a broad scale. Selective enforcement is a whole other story.

If (when) this change to the UCMJ is enacted, they'll need a lot of guys to check out all the "spas" to verify which are "legitimate" and which are AMPs. They'll also probably need to hire a team of contractors to read the WSG Forum all day to help them collect information on where P2P joints are (military people are probably not allowed to visit this site with government computers.) What a job to get paid for! Where do I apply?

I also wonder what the standard of evidence will be. If a suspected P2P joint is not on an "off limits" list, but a military guy is seen walking in or out of it, is that enough to charge him while they check the place out to see if sexual services are offered at it? Do they need to catch you in the act? What about a P2P girl coming to your private home or hotel room?

Finally, if a military person charged with P2P declines non-judicial punishment and opts for a court-martial, I wonder how many panels will actually convict a guy and what their standards will be for those convicted along with the punishments doled out?

SG

Smut Villain

09-30-04, 05:19

Spy Guy,

As someone with 14 years (and counting) in the U.S. Armed Forces (as a mongering MP, imagine that !) I think I may be able to answer a couple of your questions:

(1) If a serviceman gets nabbed by civilian authorities while out in town, the military will usually heap additional punishment during a NJP (non-judicial punishment) hearing. Military members are not exempt from double-jeopardy, it seems.

(2) If an establishment is not on the "off-limits" list then it's fair game for the monger. The Military Police Corps does not have the manpower to check EVERY "suspect" place of business (we have our hands full in Iraq as things are now).

(3) You don't have to necessarily be "caught in the act" to get nabbed; just being seen in an "off-limits" establishment is enough to warrant a charge of Disobeying a Direct Order under the UCMJ.

(4) Opting for a "Courts- Martial" over an NJP hearing is tantamount to commiting career suicide, especially for an enlisted man. The conviction rates are stupendous in the military, and a Courts-Martial sentence is often (actually always) much more HARSH than NJP punishment (e.g. losing a stripe and some pay for an NJP versus going to Leavenworth, losing ALL your rank, and getting a Dishonorable Discharge for a Courts-Martial). You do the math.

This new anti-mongering regulation is a load of shit, IMHO; when the male-female ratio on most bases is something like 1 to 10, "Johnny G.I." is going to get some from someone, somewhere. I really don't think it's going to work because soldiers are human, too.

I am NOT looking forward to enforcing a law that I'm most likely going to violate myself.

Fangy

10-03-04, 07:11

I'm not trying to take away from your military talk. But I just want to make one or two points. Wasn't Mary Magdalin(sp) a prostitute? When Jesus was on earth? Prostitution has been around longer than many want to admit. I just wish we could all write our representatives, and congressmen and push for the legalization of prostitution. Like in Nevada. They do regular health checks on the girls in Nevada. Unlike your regular SW. And I can tell you, some do it for survival. Others do it to maintain a habit. I don't put any of them down, because I've known many a working girl, and it's always, usually a means of survival. Unfortunately there just weren't enough Prince Charmings to go around. Alot of the girls support their kids this way. Others put themselves through school this way. No matter who you pick up, they are just trying to survive. (And as for them legalizing prostitution, I doubt it will happen in the near future) Because it's an election year. And that's some stuff the candidates wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. (I'm now officially off of my soapbox.) Good luck and good hunting, and be safe. I would give you my vd lecture, but you'd probably just ignore it.

Joe Zop

10-04-04, 18:03

A question, sort of riffing on the law student/sex worker who's been in the news:

Say you've met a woman in her thirties who's reasonably or very successful in her job, you've gotten to know her a bit, perhaps formed an attraction toward her, and she reveals to you that before she went into her current field she spent X amount of time working as an escort/sex worker. It was years ago, she was very discreet and no one knows about it, etc.

What do you do with that information on a personal level (or otherwise, though I think that's rather more clear)? Does this change the way you look at/think about her, her situation, and in what way? Does this vary depending on the circumstances (she only did it for a short time because she was desperate for money/she did it for several years putting herself through school/she worked for an agency/brother/was a freelancer/whatever) or is that irrelevant?

Rolly Polly

10-04-04, 18:19

As far as the information goes, I would certainly keep it to myself. I have a lot of co-workers that confide in me and I must admit that I am a damn good secret keeper! I don't think it's anyones business and when she feels comfortable enough to tell a friend it should be with the unspoken understanding that it should not be repeated to others.

On a personal level, in that situation I don't think it would bother me. Certainly, I would take such a relationship slowly. The last thing I would want to do is to jump into a serious relationship to later find myself having remorseful or "jealous" (lack of a better word) feelings.

The guy who goes public with that information should have his balls cut off...that's for sure!

Smut Villain

10-04-04, 19:59

I' d have to agree with Rolly Polly on this one. If you really think about it, we all have skeletons in our closets. Me judging someone like that for her past is like the pot calling the kettle black. Besides, she actually made something of herself (vice using the business to support, say, a drug habit). But I guess the Bible-thumpers just can't see that, though.

I also find it funny how the government wants to collect back taxes on her earnings (WTF!). Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought that taxes were only levied on legitimate income sources. Does that mean we should go after drug dealers for owing back taxes on their drug money as well? And while we're on that subject: if the government demands income tax on P4P enterprises, could that be a slippery slope towards legalization?

I can't imagine outlawing an activity, then charging taxes on income derived from that same activity. That seems very hypocritical to me.

PsyberZombie

10-04-04, 21:13

Smut Villian writes =

I also find it funny how the government wants to collect back taxes on her earnings (WTF!). Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought that taxes were only levied on legitimate income sources

Ever hear of AL CAPONE , Smutty ??

Run a web search on him , and see How the Feds managed to lock him up

Hint for those of you too Lazy to do this =

They got him on Income Tax Evasion for failing to pay Taxes on his ill·gotten gains

Alcatraz is Closed now ; but if the Man *really* wants to nail you =
A Tax Evasion Conviction is the Way they Go !!

Cash Works

10-04-04, 21:38

I think I've missed the news on this one, so I don't really know the background details. However, based on what's been written here, I'd have to agree with Rolly Polly and Smut Villain. She's confided in you as a friend, so she's trusting that you'll keep her confidence.

If I were to give her any grief about being a prostitute, I'd be guilty of hypocrisy. Seriously, if you compared P4P partners, chances are our numbers would be pretty close (mine may actually be larger than hers - I've been mongering for over 20 years, semi retired at the moment due to geographical constraints) - the difference is that I was paying a prostitute to have sex & she was being paid by a customer to have sex with them. It takes two to tango - is one of the two any better or worse than the other?

As for the taxation part - we've discussed that here a little while ago, when RN was asking why we wouldn't want our daughters to be prostitutes. One of my reasons was tax evasion. Since I don't know the details of the report that JZ mentioned, I can't make any valid comments about the back taxes except that they can only go back 7 years, I believe anything prior to that would be protected by statute of limitations.

CW

Pokey

10-04-04, 22:29

I agree with Smut Villian that we all have skeletons in our closet. It shouldn't matter much if you keep the relationship on a professional level or even work/dating situtation.

I would tell her I was a monger too and compare notes with her on who fucked more people.

If you wanted a deeper relationship, or God forbid wanted to marry this girl; well then you could be in trouble. depending on how long she has been in the business, she more then likey has psychology problems, self esteem problems, along with a good amount of guilt.

Chances are this girl chose to tell you about her past, because she wanted a co-dependant relationship with you.

Oh, JS you must be talking about that Stanford Law student, and turned on about fucking a highly educated prostitute. She is not that smart, as I think she could be making more money at a top tier law firm.( I haven't followed it closely, I'll read up on it)

PsyberZombie

10-04-04, 23:18

Both Joe Zop and Pokey surely must know that any woman who turns to the Sex Industry to "Make Ends Meat" has "Issues" that make them not trust·worthy enough to *ever* be a Signficant Other

The only exception to this Rule would be the gal who was merely an 'Exotic Dancer' in a high·class Strip Club where No Contact with the dancers was allowed

Joe Zop

10-05-04, 05:30

Yes, I was thinking partially about the Stanford student, but I was also thinking about the issue in general. There are certainly lots of women out working as escorts, and it's kind of like pro athletes in that it's a career that only lasts so long, and there's going to be a long stretch of life afterward when you're doing something else. There are obviously also many women who simply decide the life isn't for them for whatever reason and move on.

I'm curious -- why would you think that years after being out of the game, she would have "issues" or "psychology problems"? Are you guys saying that the act itself of deciding you would go into the game demonstrates some kind of inate and permanent psychological flaw? Would you say the same thing about someone who was, say, a car thief who'd quit such activity a decade ago? I knew, for example, guys who sold pot to help finance going through school who stopped doing so later. Some of them are the most disgustingly upstanding people you'd ever care to meet.

Do you think the same of guys who pay for sex? Would the same issues come up in terms of having a deeper relationship with a "reformed" monger?

And PsyberZombie, I confess I'm totally unclear on your distinction -- you are apparently saying here that exotic dancers who, say, give lap dances also fall into this category. Are you saying that the bottom line is that anyone who allows themselves to be touched or touches for money falls into the category, but those who are simply seen do not?

PsyberZombie

10-05-04, 11:25

Are you guys saying that the act itself of deciding you would go into the game demonstrates some kind of inate and permanent psychological flaw?
Yes

Almost any·one will resort to Criminal Activity to get money if they're desperate enough ; but it takes a , shall we say , 'Special' kind of person to decide that sucking dicks is the best way to get that money

Do you think the same of guys who pay for sex?
Of course not

Anonymous sex with a total stranger is a Normal Fantasy for guys [ it's an Evolutionary thing = maximizing your off·spring , and all that ] ; we mongers just get to live out those Fantasies

Are you saying that the bottom line is that anyone who allows themselves to be touched or touches for money falls into the category, but those who are simply seen do not?
Exactly

A College Co·Ed who is an Exotic Dancer at a place where no contact is allowed is a whole lot different than a Lap Dancer , who is basically a Hooker of a lessor degree

Let's face it , Gentlemen :

We all Thank Dog that P4P gals exist ; but let me draw an Analogy =

I like to 'play the ponies' , too

But that doesn't mean I want a Race Horse living in my house

Capiche ??

Rolly Polly

10-05-04, 12:08

That's a tough point JZ. On the one hand, we would have to ask "why prostitution and not a part time legal job?"

On the other hand, look at the perks of prostitution: (a) make your own hours, (b) many times one hour a day is all that is needed to make sufficient part time money, (c) be your own boss, (d) as much vacation time as you want or need.

There is enough reason to do it that I would not make the claim that all prostitutes are "affected" by it.

Heck, where else can you make $250 an hour or more with no educational requirments. All the perks are there, but it takes "guts" to actually put your ad out there and see that first client.

VilunyaChert

10-05-04, 14:20

>let me draw an Analogy =
>I like to 'play the ponies' , too
>But that doesn't mean I want a Race Horse living in my house

PsyberZombie, isn't the situation more analogous to adopting one of those "retired" grayhounds from Lincoln Park?

Joe Zop

10-05-04, 14:42

So, for guys to pay for anonymous sex with a total stranger is just evolution, but for a woman that's a serious flaw.

Do the guys who would be ex-Chippendales dancers also fall into the category of people who have innate "issues" that would make them too untrustworthy for anyone to ever consider them as a significant other? You describe Lap Dancers as hookers of a lesser degree -- what would be the smallest degree where someone crosses over the line? Would it be going from a complete no-contact bar to somewhere that guys can stuff dollars? Would it be rubbing tits in someone's face while on stage? Something else?

As far as your analogy goes, would you also be saying that no one should ever marry an ex-jockey because after all they had all that physical contact with sweaty horses?

Rolly Polly, you mentioned being remorseful or "jealous" as being the closest way to describe worries about a potential serious relationship with an ex-sex worker. Presuming this was a person you felt you knew well enough to consider and were attracted to before you found out about her ex-career, could you say more about those worries? Would it be worrying about measuring up or being compared to a list of clients? Worry about public (or family) exposure of her past? Worrying that, as others have mentioned, there might be some sort of hidden personality or character flaw you might beat yourself up over not detecting? Something else?

I think your comment about the guts needed to put your ad out and see that first client is a really good one. Perhaps RN would weigh in on that.

Rolly Polly

10-05-04, 15:56

Actually the main worry would be the potential loss of emotional attachment to a significant other. After so much sex for nothing more than money can she then re-connect emotionally to the "love making process".

Perhaps, there is also room to say that there may be a concern of having the ability to measure up. Lets face it, guys get more creative and "nasty" (lack of better word) with a P4P situation than with a girlfriend or spouse.

I might even start asking myself, are those orgasms real or is she faking because she is "immune" to the process.

Maybe if I was actually in such a situation I would see that these concerns are actually not real concerns, but from a hypothetical stand point this is the potential thoughts.

Joe Zop

10-05-04, 16:40

Good points, I guess, as they are all about the core issue in a love relationship, that being "how do I know whether or not it's real?"

Wouldn't a woman be justified in having the same concerns with an experienced monger? There are tons of posts in this forum that not only talk about the wonders of sex without emotional attachment but that are pretty harsh about various partners' performance in the sack (often, ironically, because of the lack of good faking of emotional attachment.) If a monger's been with 500 women how is he any less potentially emotionally disconnected?.

Rolly Polly

10-05-04, 16:52

Generally men work off of lust more than love. That's not to say that men don't fall in love, but in sexual terms a man expresses love by being attentive to his partners needs. Whereas a woman can be submissive in bed, but is more inclined to express love verbally and with other jestures.

The above comment really doesn't make that much sense, but I'm keeping it there as it may be at least one half ass opinion.

The more adequate answer would be that a guy who does not have the love connection could very easily have erection issues, but a female will never have that problem. It's just more disguisable with a women and the question can linger.

Fangy

10-06-04, 01:06

Just my opinion. But ex working girls can and do fall in love. And some of them get married. I'm sure not all of them tell their spouse, of their past.

But what is the difference between working girls, and say the girls you all screwed in high school. Just because it was free, that's ok?

It's screwing which ever way you look at it.

We are still women, and still human. And have all the emotional crap, that women are going to have. (ok I'm off of my soapbox)

It's just something for you to think about.

Did you ask your wife, before you married her, how many men she had screwed?

And if she gave you a number, it sure didn't have to be the truth!

Hi,

This is just a suggestion, so please don't take it the wrong way.

I appreciate the details in your report, but I know from experience that a lot of people find it easier to read a report if the paragraphs are separated by a single blank line.

I know how this happens: You're banging away at the keyboard, putting your thoughts into the report as fast as you can write them. However, if you could hit the return key TWICE at the end of each paragraph, your report would be much easier to read, which would certainly be appreciated by your fellow Forum Members.

Thanks,

Jackson

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 09:49

"i think your comment about the guts needed to put your ad out and see that first client is a really good one. perhaps rn would weigh in on that".

you're right - it was a fantastic point. people tend to think that sex workers are a certain 'type' of person, who somehow innately understands/condones/accepts the sex industry and that we just waltz into it without a second thought. that's absurd! we grew up having all the same negative stereotypes thrown at us, by the same media, in the same society, as all of you did. we heard all the same horror stories about drugs and [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) and police corruption and violence, and most of us were terrified by the prospect of having those things happen to us if we crossed that line and became a hooker. you think we just pass 18 years of age and suddenly think "hey, hooking for the local escort agency would be a fabulous employment opportunity"? many of us get 'inside' the industry and find that the stereotype is actually a load of crap. but none of us knew that before we started.

most sex workers are gonna give you some sort of 'hard luck' story when you ask them why they started working - be it a deadbeat ex-husband, a drug habit, expensive tuition fees, threatened eviction, whatever. that's because for most girls, things would've had to have got really, really bad, or they would never have considered starting work in the first place. nobody would voluntarily subject themselves to the type of abuse that we think is a sex worker's lot, unless times had got pretty darn tough and forced our hand. the decision to ring a massage parlour was the hardest thing i have ever done in my life. it was what i needed to do at that point in time and i have never regretted it. but, my god i felt sick at the time.

as for the rest of the conversation here...it breaks my heart to think that mongers, of all men, could feel such disdain for ex-sex workers. i fail to see how my having sex with men for money automatically makes me 'damaged goods' - especially when you having sex with women for money apparently has no negative impact on your own character.

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 10:10

PS. Rolly Polly said this: "That's a tough point JZ. On the one hand, we would have to ask "why prostitution and not a part time legal job?"

Where I live - and in many other places in the world - prostitution is not illegal (and yes, we even pay taxes). Does that somehow make a difference?

And PsyberZombie said this: "Almost any·one will resort to Criminal Activity to get money if they're desperate enough ; but it takes a , shall we say , 'Special' kind of person to decide that sucking dicks is the best way to get that money"

Call me crazy, but I have MUCH more respect for a woman who decides to suck dicks for a living, than I would a woman who robs banks, bashes little old ladies, steals cars, sells drugs or shoplifts for a living.

PsyberZombie

10-06-04, 12:00

Joe Zop and the rest of you guys should realize that I'm talking in Generalities here ; that is =

Part of the Wisdom of Life is in recognizing Patterns and acting accordingly on those patterns

After years of Experience , basically Every Sex Worker I've met is nuttier than a squirrel turd

They're also Experts at Manipulation and Deceit = they know *exactly* how to size up a guy ; and if they suspect you're a Sucker , yer gonna get more sucked out of you than your Semen

There have been whole Threads here on =
" Should I help a SW ?? "
[ where 'Help' is basically Financial Support in one form or another ]

I would just *Warn* Joe and others here that although there probably are some Sweet , Innocent Girls out there who couldn't possibly find any other way to make money than sucking some dick , the Reality is that the 'hard luck' stories you hear from people like RN are most likely just part of their Scam

You're going to do what you want , Joe

But when you play with TNT , it's likely to blow up in your face

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 12:42

I've never scammed anyone. I earned an honest dollar and paid my taxes, in a slightly 'irregular' job. Only the other day I was in this section saying that I had (repeatedly) laughed at clients' offers to 'help' me.

I have a whole heap of different qualifications under my belt and could have worked in a variety of different fields if I'd wanted to. Fact is, at that point in my life, I needed money IMMEDIATELY. I didn't have time to apply for jobs and have interviews and eventually be employed and then wait for another three weeks for my first wages cheque. My kids and I would have ended up on the streets. I chose the sex industry as a TEMPORARY solution to keep our heads above water. My plan was to start looking for a 'real' job while I worked and get out of it as soon as possible.

Only I discovered that I absolutely, positively LOVED the job. I paid my way through a couple of diploma courses to increase my employment options but when it came down to it, I didn't want to leave. Working only part-time, I paid off all my ex-husband's debts, furnished my house and bought my car and still had plenty of time to be at home with my kids. (Probably one of the best ever arguments for prostitution - single Mums usually have to choose between a full-time income and never seeing their kids, or a part-time income and seeing their kids, but struggling financially. Prostitution offers a high income in short hours, allowing you to provide for your kids financially AND emotionally).

I got told I was beautiful all day every day, I got paid a squillion bucks an hour for having wild passionate SEX, I had more orgasms in a week than most women will have in their lifetime and spending time 'at the office' meant lounging around in your underwear while a gorgeous busty blonde braids your hair (or more!!!) ....if choosing that over a 'normal' job makes me nuttier than a squirrel turd, then so be it.

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 16:14

Well, PsyberZombie, also speaking in "generalities," I've found that most people, sex workers or otherwise, tend to react well when you treat them like an actual person and give them the same level of respect you expect to get yourself, and that you reap what you sow. (That doesn't mean being a sucker, either.) I've also found that my judgement on people overall tends to be pretty good, so I can generally tell when someone is going to be trouble, a scam artist, etc. and I can avoid them or at least avoid getting entangled closely enough so something like that happens. I grew up surrounded by heavy crime, drugs, and people running scams, and while I'd agree that, yes, there are certain levels of the culture where people are so desperate for a buck that they'd do anything to part anyone from their money, that doesn't translate into a general statement, and if I avoid, say, the drugged-out SW scene I mostly avoid that type of person.

The problem with using generalities is that it's inexact and often incorrect. Saying that all those bright things in the heavens are stars means misidentifying the moon and any number of planets, satellites, and aircraft. Another part of the "Wisdom of Life" is being able to make distinctions between specific situations -- stereotying isn't "Wisdom," it's a substitute for thinking.

Rolly Polly, if men operate more off lust than love, doesn't that mean that all women are utterly justified in being insecure? :) And I still don't see how that really tackles my question regarding whether or not mongers should also be considered damaged goods when it comes to relationships. Why is a guy who sleeps with 500 sex workers somehow less emotionally problematic than the sex workers he sleeps with?

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 17:05

JZ,

Let's put it on equal playing ground. A guy who is a sex worker is "damaged goods" a women who hires escorts to please her is not, in my book at least. We have to keep it apples to apples here.

RN,

I always wondered what that first "date" was like when a complete stranger hands you money and starts stripping or barking requests.

My point about the part time job was in reference to JZ's scenario where the lady is seeing repercussions for her attempt to make money in an illegal fashion. Also, read further and you see that I pointed out the aspects that I find to be perks of the job, with the major hurdle being the first advertisment.

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 17:13

Rolly Polly,

I realise you've said some great things in defence of sex workers, and I do appreciate it, but you're still making a very clear distinction between the person who has sex for money, and the person who pays money for sex. I'm with Joe - I can't understand how that distinction can be made.

In one of your posts, you said this: "Actually the main worry would be the potential loss of emotional attachment to a significant other. After so much sex for nothing more than money can she then re-connect emotionally to the "love making process"."

After so much sex for nothing more than money. Can the same not be said about clients who have all that sex for nothing more than sex??? Could a monger not become 'emotionally detached' after having sex with strangers for so long? And couldn't this affect his future sexual relationships?

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 17:33

Those were exactly my points -- if we believe that to be true about sex workers, why don't we believe it to be true for those who pay for sex? We might make some distinction, for example, (and I recognize this is an over-the-top comparison) between someone who takes money to kill someone and the person who pays them to do so, but we'd feel they fell into the same general category and were both equally morally suspect. Why isn't that the case here?

I understand the apples to apples comparison, but I don't understand the concept that someone who pays someone to do something is somehow substantially different from the person who does what they've been paid to do.

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 17:38

Of course it can't be said about the client. The client wants sex, perhaps a lot, but everytime the client makes an appointment it's because he or she WANTS it.

RN, when guys called you were you alway in the mood when they showed up? I can't imagine the answer would be yes. You would not become disconnected to sexual feelings if you get it because you want it even if you pay for it.

The same is would not be true if you get it because it's your job despite your mood. Also, the client can pick a partner who they are attracted to, but the provider usually doesn't. Of course, a provider could turn a client down and I'm sure it happens, but there are more cases of the provider being with a slob than not.

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 17:54

So why isn't the client actually worse -- a freak who will do anything to get their rocks off, including pay for it, regardless of the lack of attachment? Or are you saying that lust is something that is somehow some sort of trump card, that lusting for someone proves you are "ok" and that having sex with someone without lust means you're damaged? I find that a rather odd concept.

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 18:14

When I had sex with a client, I disconnected emotionally, to - what I would presume to be - the same degree as my clients did. I didn't fall in love with them. I didn't start dreaming of what a fabulous life we'd have together. I didn't start planning the wedding ceremony. I shut down all the so-called 'female' emotions and I had SEX. Just sex. I focused on the sensations and surrendered to the moment and just shagged them senseless.

Clients do exactly the same thing with a hooker. Forget the money and who is attracted to who. What this boils down to is two strangers having sex, with no emotional strings attached - and I don't see why that should affect the sex worker more than the client, let alone cause 'damage' to either side.

Dickhead

10-06-04, 18:40

I disagree Rub-a-dub-dub as I see many guys becoming emotionally involved with hookers down here, including maybe even me sometimes. If you keep fucking them and hanging out with them, it is bound to happen. Even with some of the girls where I just go to apartments, fuck them, and leave, we end up getting to know each other on a personal level. I know their kids' names and ages and where they are from and get to the point where I care if they are having a good day or a bad day.

Others I have over for dinner and sex and they sometimes spend the night. I've met their friends and they mine. In fact I am becoming more emotionally involved with some of these prostitutes than I did with some actual girlfriends back in the states.

YEMV but that is what it is like down here. Of course I never fell in love or started planning wedding ceremonies with those actual girl friends, either!

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 18:40

I don't see how the two can be the same at all.

You do not have to be in love with someone to have sex with them, but usually you should be attracted to them.

Someone who has sex because they want sex, with or without love, is not disconnecting at all, but a provider is.

Here's what I mean...a "connection" exists for various reasons such as love, but also for lust. It may be two different kinds of connection, but there is a connection that is making the sexual act something enjoyable.

When talking about provider/cleint, casual sex, one night stand..etc you are generally taking love out of the equation because love is something that is work at. The connection that is there is a lustful one, but a provider has to do the act whether or not lust is even there thus disconnecting themselves from a feeling that brings about the desire for sex.

This doesn't mean that a provider cannot fall in love or lust, but how many times can a person have sex that they don't want to have (other than to get paid) before a sense of numbness exists. Keep in mind that the client ALWAYS WANTS IT, but the provider doesn't.

I really don't see how the two can even compare slightly.

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 18:50

You're right, DH - sometimes both sex workers and clients detach and just have sex. Sometimes both sex workers and clients get really friendly and it becomes more than just sex. (And sometimes some poor bastard wants it more than the other one and gets their heart broken, but more fool them for looking for love in a brothel).

Either way, I don't see that it should have a more 'damaging' effect on the sex worker than it does on the client. Nor should it make the sex worker less suitable as a girlfriend, while the client's reputation remains squeaky clean.

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 19:10

"You do not have to be in love with someone to have sex with them, but usually you should be attracted to them".

You're assuming that I wasn't.

Let's say a man is really horny and a woman that he considers to be ugly, walks up and says "Take me home and fuck me....now". What happens if he says yes? Does he 'switch off' during the sex act because he's not really attracted to her? Or does he give her a right royal rodgering just for the hell of having sex?

I enjoyed having sex. It doesn't matter that I wasn't instantly attracted to all of my clients - the idea of having sex with a total stranger got me hot. The idea that I could make that total stranger scream out my name got me hot. The idea that that total stranger was going to do everything in his power to get ME off (as most of them did) got me hot.

The only sense of 'numbness' I ever felt was in my nether regions after a long day at the office. ;)

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 19:20

My point isn't that the provider never wants it or is never attracted to the client, but if she is not in the mood and is not attracted to the client or even both at the same time she will still go through with the act to pay the bills.

The client will always either be attracted or so in the mood that he is willing to settle.

I'm trying to reiterate the point that the provider is going to have plenty of sex that they don't want with people that they probably hope to never see again, but the client gets to pick and choose.

Am I really the only that sees a difference?

Dickhead

10-06-04, 19:26

"The idea that I could make that total stranger scream out my name got me hot."

Think how hot it would have made you if it were really your name! :)

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 19:30

So, Rolly Polly, following up on your observations, would you say that actors who spend all that time "pretending" such connections for the purpose of theatre or television or whatever are also by definition damaged goods? After all, lots of them work with people they don't even like, have to kiss and make out with them, etc.

Would the same thing be true of a salesperson who is forced to "service" a client they think is a disgusting pile of goo? Or is it that because actual sex is involved that means the equation changes?

And while plenty of people have sex because they're attracted for an instant or to a very minor aspect of someone, plenty more do it simply because it's possible to do it. If a guy will fuck anything that says "yes" (and you can peruse the photo galleries here and see many comments that say this is exactly the case) then I don't see why the person saying yes somehow bears more of a burden. Are you saying it's better to be an undamaged woman who would, as the saying went directly when speaking about sex, "Just close your eyes and think of England?"

Good points, DH -- I completely agree. But let's also keep in mind that no one has to get their heart broken just because they get emotionally involved. There are degrees of everything, and liking the person I'm fucking, hearing about their family, etc., doesn't necessarily mean love or even deep affection.

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 20:02

Smarty pants. I kept my working name for years and I liked it much better than my real name - so it still felt good to hear 'em screaming it. Hell, just hearing men screaming makes me feel good! hehe ;)

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 20:07

...[C]onnections for the purpose of theatre or television or whatever are also by definition damaged goods? After all, lots of them work with people they don't even like, have to kiss and make out with them, etc.
Absolutely not! This would be like saying kids who play house become immune to marriage. Making out is far less intimate than sex and the sex is simulated (except in the porn industry). If sex workers were involved in making out and nothing more than having the client "dry hump" her then I would renege on all that I have said, but that is not the case.

Would the same thing be true of a salesperson who is forced to "service" a client they think is a disgusting pile of goo? Or is it that because actual sex is involved that means the equation changes?
I find it odd that you don't distinguish sex with conversation. Yes, both can be intimate, but lets be real there is a huge difference.

And while plenty of people have sex because they're attracted for an instant or to a very minor aspect of someone, plenty more do it simply because it's possible to do it. If a guy will fuck anything that says "yes" (and you can peruse the photo galleries here and see many comments that say this is exactly the case) then I don't see why the person saying yes somehow bears more of a burden. Are you saying it's better to be an undamaged woman who would, as the saying went directly when speaking about sex, "Just close your eyes and think of England?"
Well, this goes back to my logic all along that there is something to be said for actually desiring the act of sex for whatever the reason may be. Now, lets say that a women does enjoy it with just anyone the fear changes to a concern that she may cheat on you. I don't think there is a concern at all that an ex-sex worker will cheat per se (although it could obviously happen), but it's just a fear that you are not accomplishing a full intimate connection.

Rubber Nursey

10-06-04, 20:12

I could be just as afraid that a 'serial monger' is going to cheat on me. That he's going to need the variety. That he's going to want all the 'kinky' things from me that he usually gets from sex workers. He's been hiding his mongering from friends and family all his adult life - who says he's not hiding it from me as well? Mongers are also notorious for trying to short-change sex workers and get more than they paid for. Does that make him an untrustworthy rip-off merchant? How could I ever trust him when he says he's going on an overseas business trip?

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 20:30

There must be a reason to think such a thing first.

RN, if you knew a guy you found attractive and sweet, but you knew he slept with anything and everything in the past with zero discretion and he know asks you out, would you have your concerns?

If you don't know such a thing about a person there is no reason to worry about it, but if a husband comes home with lipstick stains on his boxer shorts..well then I would assume it's time to make assumptions. :)

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 20:31

Well said, RN.

So, Rolly Polly, you're saying it's sex itself that makes the distinction, no matter what. In other words, it's the old "a woman who has lots of sex is irreparably damaged" argument in a particular form.

Please tell me what you mean by a "full intimate connection." Back when it was considered a horrible thing for a women even to enjoy sex, when it was "wifely duties" that one simply put up with, there were certainly (and no doubt are today) many marriages that lacked such connections. Does this mean the people involved were innately damaged in some way?

If playing a role isn't damaging in some other context, why is it so debilitating in a sexual context? That's the crux of the argument, and you're asserting a belief where I simply can't follow the logic. I find it particularly baffling after you've said that men are primarily driven by lust -- surely lust isn't exactly a deep emotion of any great significance, so why should it be some sort of magic bullet that keeps men's characters safe during P4P?

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 20:33

"There must be a reason to think such a thing first."

WHAT????

That's true for a guy, but you don't need any such reason for an ex-sex-worker, right? That's looney tunes.

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 20:45

The argument is so simple. I will try just one more time, but perhaps you forgot how this began, so let me start with that.

This all started with the these questions by you, JZ:

Presuming this was a person you felt you knew well enough to consider and were attracted to before you found out about her ex-career, could you say more about those worries? Would it be worrying about measuring up or being compared to a list of clients? Worry about public (or family) exposure of her past? Worrying that, as others have mentioned, there might be some sort of hidden personality or character flaw you might beat yourself up over not detecting? Something else?

So please keep in mind that my statements are talking about potential fear that one could have when they find out the girl they are dating is an ex-sex worker. Fears are not reality, but are enough to destroy a relationship.

Again, it's not lots of sex that causes irreparable damage, it's sex with people who you don't want to have sex with on a constant basis that could create an interal concern that sex may be "numb".

Seems at this point words are being put in my mouth as I never suggested:
that's true for a guy, but you don't need any such reason for an ex-sex-worker, right?

As a matter of fact I tried to suggest the opposite:
I don't think there is a concern at all that an ex-sex worker will cheat per se (although it could obviously happen)

Pokey

10-06-04, 21:15

i believe most sex workers have deep scars from the experience of fucking for a living, although i wouldn't go so far to say they all of them are damaged goods, so if you want to take them home to mommy, go ahead, it's just your chances of making it with them is going to be less then the girl next door.

i would suggest to say most sex workers are like women who suffered a [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) or an abortion, although to a lesser degree. i think we would all agree that either of these experiences are a tragedy, and most women could use some kind of therapy to get over the the pain.

now some women, and i known some of these women, think nothing about getting a abortion, it's just another form of birth control to them, but i don't think its the majority of women. hell, some women don't suffer after a [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123), just look at that women kobe bryant, allegedly raped.( i guess it's true some women really liked it! just kidding.)

some people on this forum try to make the augument: what about the monger, isn't he also damaged goods? well, yes and no.
yes, he is damaged if he mongers as much as some of the mongers here. if the ex hooker, doesn't mine the mongers going off every few weeks to get a variety of pussy, then i think the relationship could work.( i won't get into if your can trust the ex-sex worker, because you can't, oh maybe with a chastity belt!)

the male doesn't suffer the same stigma in our society over sex as the women do. it's not the same thing if a male teacher has sex with a female student as a female teacher having sex with a boy student. i have both a daughter and son, if they happened to my daughter, i would go get my gun. if it happend to my son, i might ask him how was it, and later try sue the school district for money.

i'm sure some men get upset over their girlfriends having an abortion, but i would guess not many need counseling over it.

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 21:17

Rolly Polly, points well taken that potential fears are not reality, and that regardless of the truth of such things such fears can detroy relationships.

And if your entire argument is actually that "someone could think these things" well, fine, no problem, but the questions you just gave of mine were asking about how people thought they might personally react. If you're saying that your personal fear would be that, pretty much by definition, someone who has sex for money loses the ability to have a "full intimate connection" then I obviously accept it, but I still have a hard time understanding the distinctions you're making regarding it. People have fears that someone is just "acting" all the time, and I just don't get the distinction between such fears someone might have with an actress, a monger, and someone who spent time as a sex worker years ago. You seem to feel this should be self-evident; to me it's not.

And I'm sorry if you felt I was putting words in your mouth, but you essentially told RN that there would have to be a reason to suspect a monger of the whole slew of behaviors she described as potential worries about a monger, after saying that would be a reasonable fear with an ex-sex worker. Yes, you said there would need to be evidence of cheating, but you still ascribe negative character or personality traits to the sex worker but not the monger.

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 21:25

Is it not the nature of the profession? Lawyers are looked at as liars and car salesman are looked at as cheats. This does not mean that all are or even most are, but lawyers and car salesmen go into the job knowing the publics views, whether it is hypocritical or not.

Should a sex worker not understand the potential for concern? I guess the question is not "should they" because then you it gets into a utopian society issue and whether or not stereotypes should exist, but the question can be "would it surprise and ex-sex worker if she was not looked at in the same light as, let's say, a doctor or engineer?

Rolly Polly

10-06-04, 21:49

This conversation has been wonderful, but I must bid a temporary farewell as I am leaving to head out of town in 10 minutes.

I just thought I would make the announcement to avoid any thoughts that I may have abandoned the conversation.

I will check on the progression upon my return on Sunday, but I'm sure the topic will have evolved by that time.

Joe Zop

10-06-04, 22:40

RP, always a pleasure discussing things with you!

PsyberZombie

10-07-04, 11:46

Pokey writes =

I believe most sex workers have deep scars from the experience of fucking for a living

You've fallen for an Ancient Logical Fallacy known as =

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc"

[ which is Latin for : you're confusing Cause and Effect ]

The Trvth is that it takes some·one who's messed up to get into the Sex Trade in the First Place

It doesn't really matter what the Source of the gal's psychic wounds are : they were there before she started her Sex Worker 'career' ; and they'll be there long after she 'retires'

Which is WHY I'm warning Joe Zop to tread carefully

Joe Zop

10-07-04, 14:22

so, psyberzombie, what you're basically saying is that only messed-up people get into the sex trade, so by definition if you've gotten into the sex trade you're messed up both during and after. pokey on the other hand says that the experience itself usually causes people to get messed up, but that it's not an absolute effect. (and does this mean that only messed-up guys become mongers, or frequent mongers become messed up?)

either logic works ok, if you accept the basic premise it puts forth. i don't in either case. i've met any number of sex workers who purely and simply were not messed up. i've also met those who were. big deal. i can say the same about normal people, and it doesn't keep me from getting involved with either. i've got friends who were/are serious drug addicts, [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) victims, drunks, [CodeWord128] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord128) survivors, ex-criminals, etc. you certainly don't need to be a saint to be someone i'll consider being in a relationship with. i'm no saint, either.

and i sure as hell trust my own judgements on people more than i do blanket stereotyping, regardless of the premise behind it. (i'm going to take seriously warnings from someone who practices random capitalization and makes generalized negative statements? in any event, my questions about this issue were rhetorical, not something based on some sort of pending personal decision.)

i simply don't know that many people who don't bear some kind of scar from life, and i'm not all that sure i'd be interested in knowing them in any event, as i don't know they'd have anything of value to offer to me other than some pie-in-the-sky perspective on life i can't possibly believe. the us justice department says that more than half of all women have been physically assaulted either as a child or an adult, that 8% have been stalked, and that close to one in five have been sexually assaulted. so those are all potentially messed up people. frankly, statistically speaking, a woman who's been a victim has more to fear from me than i do from her, given the high percentage of victimization by boyfriends, partners, spouses, etc., and the high percentage of women who have it happen more than once. i'm not interested in simply writing off ten to twenty-five percent of the overall population (and that doesn't even consider the number of men who i should be worrying about) as people i'm not going to deal with because they might be messed up because they were victims or criminals at some point.

beauty and desire are not only about perfection but often about flaw. flaw can mean character as well as defect. flaw doesn't threaten or worry me, though i'm not going to be an idiot about it and can and do protect myself when i feel it's a good idea. but i'd rather hang with someone who's made mistakes or had negative experiences than with some sheltered orchid who might wilt if ever exposed to sunlight.

Pokey

10-07-04, 21:08

PsyberZombie, I also have to disagree with you regarding only "fucked Up" women go into prostitution, althought a great many of them do exactly that. ( I used the term fucked up because DH used it, and it fits, psychological damaged.)

Let take me as an example, I didn't become a fucked up monger until I fucked at least 100 sex workers.( I'm nearing 600-1000 now-lost count.) I mean I was happy having a girl friend and didn't need to supplement pussy on the side as I do now. After 100 I needed supplement pussy, and I found myself not interesed in kissing or holding my girlfriends after having sex. ( I solved that problems, I try to insist that sex workers offer DFK. althought I don't always get.

I think a girl could try recreational pussy for hire once or twice without much damage, It's only after repeated fucking, day in and day out that the damage occurs.

I also find poorer women and where prostitution if accepted the damage is less or even non existent. So yes, I guess JS could find a young part time student/hooker without religious values and that girl could be happy. She is happy she has dreams, but she will still have that deep dark secret eating away at her soul.( what if her husband found out?)

I also found Happy Hookers in some black women. There was less of a stigma for them in the getto neighborhood in LA I use to visit. Some SG, would grab my dick, and say, "I hope you have a big dick, and can make me happy." They use to try real hard to get off, and have some fun too, not like an average white hooker, who wants to get you off and out.

I ask you this JS. I don't know your current situation, but I know you're a monger. Let say you are a single man now, who mongers like you currently do, or did when you were active. Could you meet a nice young women who has dreams of getting married to you, and you her. Could you quit mongering for her, and only fuck her?

Dickhead

10-07-04, 21:18

"They use to try real hard to get off, and have some fun too, not like an average white hooker, who wants to get you off and out."

I think you mean an average white American hooker. Down here in Argentina, most of them want to have one or more orgasms and I certainly try to see that they do.

Rubber Nursey

10-08-04, 04:11

Pokey, I never thought I'd be saying this to you, but THANK YOU for your honesty and for being one of the first to admit that mongers are not immune to psychological 'damage'. AND for turning the question back on Joe (I know what his answer will be, but I'm glad you asked it all the same).

What you said about not needing to kiss and cuddle girlfriends as much, made me realise that P4P probably did the opposite for me. I came to appreciate affection and gentleness MORE than I used to. Not that my clients were necessarily rough with me - but there's a whole different level to tenderness when there's actually feelings of love behind it. I started to appreciate being cared about, rather than just desired.

I agree with the other point you made about prostitution being less 'damaging' under certain circumstances - like in places where there is less stigma attached or when sex work doesn't conflict with a girl's moral and/or religious beliefs. I would also say that working environment is a significant contributing factor. A worker in a high class brothel or escort agency is going to be affected differently than a street worker is. And a street worker in America (where its illegal and pimps run the show) is going to be affected differently again to a Sydney street worker, who is working legally and independently.

Joe Zop

10-08-04, 05:14

Yes, RN, you know what my answer will be because I've answered it before.

Pokey, I am quite married precisely to someone who was "damaged" before I met her via sexual abuse when she was a young child and physical and emotional abuse when she was in college. So I'm very intimately familiar with the demons and problems that lurk there. We've been together now for twenty-five years and there's no one I've met who I'd more prefer to be with, as she's smarter than me, has a better heart, more talents, etc. I've invested a very long time working to repair her self-image, self-confidence, and so on in as many ways as I could. (I didn't eat at a restaurant of my choice for probably five years because I forced her to get used to making such safe choices until it was a natural thing. Now, thank god -- though it's not fifty-fifty, since her tastes aren't as adventurous as mine -- I at least can have a decent disagreement over where we're going to eat.) She is now as confident and self-assured as she's likely to be, has basically blossomed, and I love her deeply. It's still all new and fresh after all these years.

However, physical intimacy is extremely difficult for her psychologically. She's given it her best to try to keep me happy, but it clearly distresses and impairs her, as it just brings up all sorts of confusing stuff, which in turn distresses me. Therapy to deal with all this kept causing more damage than help, as it just kept bringing up worse and worse things and she had trouble functioning. After years of dealing with this I finally asked her to stop torturing herself for my benefit since it really wasn't getting anywhere and because she's fine and good when this stuff isn't roiling around in her head and then I love living with and being with her. I spent a number of years simply doing without anything but my hand, which also distressed her, but that wasn't a good recipe for things either.

So I monger, with her blessing, as a solution to this mess. It is not the solution I prefer, but you don't always get what you want. Mongering offers a way to have physical release without engaging in emotional betrayal, as would be the case if I were to take a lover.

So, yes, I'd have utterly no problem simply being married and fucking one woman. It is my absolute preference. In truth, I would like nothing more than to have only the one sex partner I'm obviously not fated to have.

PsyberZombie

10-08-04, 12:00

DickHead makes an Important Point =

It's AMERICAN Hookers I'm talking about here

Some·one like RN , who grew up in a nation where Prostitution is legal and socially acceptable , doesn't have as high a hurdle to leap to jump in·to the P4P scene as American women do

[ BTW , RN = are those your Initials ?? Or are you a Registered Nurse ?? ]

JZ describes a General Population where a substantial proportion of us are 'damaged goods' psychologically

... but , as in any human trait , there's a Bell·shaped Curve that applies

The 'Out·liers' here [ i.e. more than three Standard Deviations from the mean ] would be the Pope at one end ; and Sex Trade Workers at the other

The analogy of Alcohol is a good one =

Some people are tee·totalers ; the vast majority of people drink some with No Problem ; some are Problem Drinkers ; and the out·liers are hope·less alcoholics

Your average SW is the hope·less alcoholic in this Analogy

I said before that I'm sure there are some P4P chicks who aren't totally screwed up ; but because they almost nearly all are and because they are also Masters of Manipulation and Deceit =

The Wise Monger treads very carefully before deciding to 'Help' one of these gals , beyond supporting her by buying her Services at a reasonable price in her given Profession

Rubber Nursey

10-08-04, 16:05

No, I'm not a nurse. My handle back in the old forum - before memberships and logins - was 'rubbernursey'. (At the time I was working in sexual health education, as well as working in a brothel). People eventually just started calling me 'RN' and when the new forum started, that's what I was signed up as.

I'd really like you to define your definition of 'screwed up' and 'psychologically damaged'. You keep saying that we're all screwed up, but you're yet to explain exactly what that means.

Was your good vs evil (Pope and sex workers) example a comparison of their morals, or of their sexual proclivities? Or both, perhaps? Are you trying to say that sex workers are spiritually/morally corrupt, or do you simply believe that 'good' women should be chaste and therefore sex workers must be inherently 'bad'? What is it that, in your mind, defines that 'special type' of woman who would choose to suck dicks for a living?

Rubber Nursey

10-08-04, 16:20

PS. Joe wasn't asking whether anyone would 'help' a current sex worker. He asked how people would feel if they found out someone they were perhaps attracted to, was an EX sex worker.

Joe's post: "Say you've met a woman in her thirties who's reasonably or very successful in her job, you've gotten to know her a bit, perhaps formed an attraction toward her, and she reveals to you that before she went into her current field she spent X amount of time working as an escort/sex worker. It was years ago, she was very discreet and no one knows about it, etc.

What do you do with that information on a personal level (or otherwise, though I think that's rather more clear)? Does this change the way you look at/think about her, her situation, and in what way? Does this vary depending on the circumstances (she only did it for a short time because she was desperate for money/she did it for several years putting herself through school/she worked for an agency/brother/was a freelancer/whatever) or is that irrelevant?"

Cash Works

10-08-04, 17:07

It looks to me like some of you here are suffering from "virgin worship" i.e. - "if she doesn't fuck, or only fucks one guy in her entire life, then she's a good woman. Otherwise, she's worthless scum and all fucked up in the head."

I find that attitude rather disturbing, especially from mongers. To me, if I were to settle down with one woman, not likely to happen, but if it did, then I would prefer that she had the experience of numerous partners. I'm pretty sure that most posters throughout this forum would agree that an experienced sex partner is far preferrable to one with little experience - analyze the complaints about providers - most are due to inexperience on the part of the provider. Why should this be any different in a, supposedly, non pay for play relationship?

If you want it both ways - experienced p4p provider on the side with a chaste, semi-virginal, inexperienced wifey back home - IMHO, you really need to have your head examined.

If I were to settle down into a supposedly non pay for play relationship that resembled monogamy, not likely to happen, I think it would have to be with 2 or more bisexual women, who are into each other & want me for a little variety. I don't have a problem with them doing each other, in fact, that really turns me on, but I wouldn't want to share them with another man. Call me selfish, I guess I just don't play well with others.

CW

Pokey

10-08-04, 21:58

Joe, thanks for sharing and it looks like you have a great thing going if you can stay with someone that long. I'm also married to a great women, but she doesn't know, yet at the same time knows something is up. She sometimes thinks I'm either secretly gay, or have been seeing prostitutes on the side, she doesn't think I have a girl friend, as she says no one would put up with me. Maybe, I'll go into details some other time.

RN, I hope you don't think I'm too damaged, its just that I have this darkside that needs to come out every once in awile. I'm really a mild mannered nice guy 80% of the time.

Cashworks, so you would not mind if your future wife had 500 sex parners, as a sex worker would have had plenty of experience you are looking for.

Saying you would like two bi-sexual women is not really saying much, as most men would not consider their wife cheating on them if she has a girl friend, especially if they invite him to join in.

I tell my wife all the time that one of my goals in life is two have sex with two women, and that I would want her to be one of them. She says, go ahead then, without me.( I have had threesomes many times, but just didn't tell her.)

We go to Mexico a lot, I think I'll take her to a bar, I bet one day she'll let me share her with another women. I hope so, because this lying to her is killing me.

Joe Zop

10-09-04, 01:54

Gee, Cash Works, do you have access to my PMs? :D The sentiment in your post is astonishingly close to something I sent via PM a few days ago! Obviously, I agree wholeheartedly with your observations.

PZ, is your bell-curve simply of the damaged or in general? American sex workers are, in your opinion, the single most damaged? And the Pope sits where? :o Sounds more like an accurate bell-curve of sexual activity instead.

The problem with your argument is that you make this grand general statement about all or most of those who simply happen to be in a particular profession. Where do you place, say, those who work in coffee shops or perhaps accountants in your curve? Dentists? Factory workers? Who's close to American sex workers on the professional bell-curve? Are you saying people just flock to particular professions based on how "together" or "damaged/undamaged" they are? (Obviously I'm being facetious, but c'mon!) And if that doesn't work, how can it possibly be taken as a valid statement about such a large group of people?

The analogy may be graphic but the logic is flimsy. It's just new curtains for the same unsupported assertion.

Pokey, the number of sex partners a future wife has had truly wouldn't be an issue for me, really. That sure as heck was never a criteria when I was dating. I could care less if she had 5 or 5000 partners. (Hell, I would prefer someone with a clue about how to make my head explode on cue.) But the bottom line is that I wouldn't be marrying someone because of their past, but because of our future.

And best wishes for making your situation work out!

Dickhead

10-09-04, 03:01

Can we please not overrate prostitution by calling it a profession? It is a trade. Law, medicine, accounting, architecture, engineering, now those are professions. Cooking, bricklaying, prostitution, carrying mail, now those are trades. Granted one can practice one's trade in a relatively more professional manner or a relatively less professional manner. However, there is a definite and distinct difference.

Is the practitioner of a trade less inherently worthy than the practitioner of a profession? No, but the latter has invested a lot more in his or her education and training and therefore deserves to earn a premium return on that investment. From an economic standpoint, things won't work out too well if it is otherwise. The relevant concept is that of human capital.

Having said that, I just spent the evening with a guy who is an accountant and an attorney, and his friend, who is a prostitute. I like the guy and he is a very good friend. However he takes himself too seriously and I would rather hang around with her if I have to make the choice. Fortunately I do not, at least at the present time.

Sinanju Master

10-09-04, 03:23

Cash Works

Thought I'd make another rare cameo appearance here at the risk of the audience tossing rotten fruit at me. I think that the idea of a dude wanting a "virginal *****" (to best describe this phenomena many guys want) is based on ego. Put yourself in the shoes of the guy who wants to fuck a chick who he thinks is HIS ALONE. Said woman has NEVER had another man in her life, BUT she wants it ALL THE TME from said lucky guy. I think it's an issue of "ownership" and sexual prowess from the perspective of the male ego.

I don't know how I'd react if I were in a relationship with a woman who had say, 350 sexual encounters. I'd be appreciative of her sexual knowledge, BUT in the back of my mind, there would exist the thought: "How do I measure up to the OTHER 349 guys she's been with"? It would be like someone auditioning for "American Idol". Do I REALLY want my ego crushed from a FEMALE Simon simply because she has so much more experience? IF she were to take the approach that she wants to show me things that are guaranteed to send her into orbit, then by all means, do so, but DON'T do it in a condescending manner.

To reconcile the two views, I'd enter into the situation with the attitude that I'm in the presence of someone who can teach me a LOT and I'd take away as much from the experience as POSSIBLE. Two things she (whomever the much more experienced partner would be) could NEVER trump me on are enthusiasm and the willingness to LEARN.

Any responses to that, RN?

Joe Zop

10-09-04, 04:47

Point taken, DH, and thanks for the correction. I rather had in mind the "oldest profession" bromide but extended it a bit far. Don't think it changes my point, but it does make me wonder whether being Pope is a trade or a profession... ;)

Dickhead

10-09-04, 06:11

"but it does make me wonder whether being Pope is a trade or a profession... "

Neither, just another low level scam.

Rubber Nursey

10-09-04, 10:53

I tried writing a response and I kept getting lost, so I've given up and decided to go for dot-points.

* When it comes to feeling insecure about a lover's past experiences, I don't think it matters how many people she's slept with. If your girlfriend had only had TWO partners previous to you, wouldn't you still be wondering how you measure up against THEM? When it comes down to it, we only really remember the really amazing sex, anyway (and sometimes, the really crappy sex) and the ones in between are basically forgotten.

* Why would you think that an ex-sex worker would automatically want to 'teach' you stuff? I did a lot of strange and wonderful (and some not so wonderful) things in bed when I was working, but it doesn't mean that I would necessarily want to repeat any of it at home. More importantly - what I love most about 'real' sex, is that I can lose CONTROL. As a worker you have to watch the clock, conform to his fantasy and be constantly alert in order to protect yourself (emotionally and physically), amongst other things. You can never completely let go. When I have 'real' sex, I want to be able to lose myself in it - not shout orders or give lessons.

* Regardless of whether the sex with clients was good or bad, you just can't compare paid sex to the touch of someone you love and, more importantly, loves you.

* A lot of people have hinted that because sex workers have had a lot of partners, they are more likely to be unfaithful. I personally would think that a person who HASN'T had lots of partners would be more likely to be unfaithful. They would be constantly wondering whether the grass is greener on the other side and whether they might be missing out on something, and may be tempted to go out there and find out for themselves.

* If the woman you're sleeping with has had lots of previous partners and she chooses to stay with YOU - you must be doing something right. Yes, she may have lots of men to compare you to, but if you really didn't measure up, don't you think she would have walked out on you by now?

* I think this whole thing is less to do with sex workers being damaged by their past, and much more to do with MENS EGOS being damaged by the sex worker's past. Most of what I've seen here just screams of plain old INSECURITY. Not that I'm saying its a bad thing - we are ALL insecure about ourselves to some degree when it comes to sex or affairs of the heart - but you can't blame your ex-sex worker girlfriend for the fact that YOU are having trouble dealing with her sexual history.

* Cash Works - you're a champion and with every post you make, I love you more. :)

JustSumFun

10-09-04, 11:42

Cash Works
I'm pretty sure that most posters throughout this forum would agree that an experienced sex partner is far preferrable to one with little experience - analyze the complaints about providers - most are due to inexperience on the part of the provider. Why should this be any different in a, supposedly, non pay for play relationship?Well put mate.

I would rather have an experienced provider than an inexperienced rookie. I have been tempted to try the new comer on many occassions by the madam of the house that I visit. Most times I pass, asking for one of the "older" providers who I know for a fact give great service. On the few occassions when I have agreed I have had mixed results. Let's just say not really very satisfactory.

P4P is all about having fun and paying for it. We dont really want to go in there and teach them how to do their job. It is a catch 22 situation I reckon. The new comers have no experience and most punters shy away from inexperienced ones. So how do they get their experience. I guess they should just grab at evey opportunity (customer) to try out stuff and see the customer's reaction. That is the only way they gain experience.

Once went with a real newbie. Probably only had two or three guys before. Very raw. But enthusiastic indeed. Tried a lot of things. And kept asking me if I liked this or that etc. Now that is someone who is going places. When I was leaving the madam asked me how she was. I told her to watch her. She will be a star in the house. She was. Pity she got deported recently.

Justfun

PsyberZombie

10-09-04, 14:36

** on the psyche of the sex worker **

how does a perfectly normal little girl go from playing with dolls , to grow up and start sucking dicks for a living ??

almost always , there has been some *huge* psychological damage to her ego [ and i mean 'ego' in the psychiatric sense ; *not* the lay sense ]

the three most common paths of destruction [ and lots of p4p gals have suffered all three] are =

1. prior sexual abuse

getting repeatedly raped by a family member is the 'classic' case

these are the girls most likely to be working for a 'pimp' , ironically enough

self·degradation is a large component of these gals' motivation

2. drug &/or alcohol abuse

psychiatrists now recognize that there is an "addictive personality" that up to 10% of the population has

in its most extreme form , the addict will do *any·thing* to get the money to support their habit

to my fellow mongers , i ask hypothetically =

suppose there really was a demand for straight male hookers

[ all male prostitutes are gay and hired by fellow gays ; "american gigolo" not·with·standing ]

how *desperate* would you have to get before you agreed to daty or screw any smelly , repulsive old woman who asked ??

pretty darn desperate , i'll bet you said

in fact , you probably said =

" i'd give up the heroin / booze before i'd do that "

but these p4p addicts can't [ or just won't ]

3. inherent psychiatric dis·orders

social norms mean a lot less to some·one suffering from shizophrenia or bi·polar disorder [ formerly called "manic·depression" ]

and some·one with psychopathic personality disorder will be both a hooker and a robber / murderer

[ see = aileen wuornos of florida , who was executed for murdering six of her johns ]

in my humble experience , though = the truly 'loony' hypo·manic chick is the most fun , fer shur !!

Rubber Nursey

10-09-04, 15:28

I think I read that same book. It also said that all priests are paedophiles, all Arab men are terrorists, all black men are crack dealers, all gun owners are psychopaths, all Asian men have small penises, and all mongers are filthy perverts who are too fat, old, bald and ugly to ever get sex for free.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/ch3-3.html

Rubber Nursey

10-09-04, 15:36

"And some·one with Psychopathic Personality Disorder will be both a Hooker AND a Robber / Murderer
[ See = Aileen Wuornos of Florida , who was executed for murdering six of her Johns ]"

Do I really need to write a list of how many MONGERS (and others) have murdered SEX WORKERS????

WSJ3

10-09-04, 16:05

RN wrote:
I think I read that same book. It also said that all priests are paedophiles, all Arab men are terrorists, all black men are crack dealers, all gun owners are psychopaths, all Asian men have small penises, and all mongers are filthy perverts who are too fat, old, bald and ugly to ever get sex for free.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/ch3-3.html

Hey I resemble that remark.

LOL.

Peace:
WSJ3
:)

Rubber Nursey

10-09-04, 16:13

I'm sorry, sweetheart, but it MUST be true. I learned all about mongers on an episode of Law and Order SVU. ;)

Cash Works

10-09-04, 17:00

RN,

OK, that settles it, I'm selling the house & business and moving to Perth! I'll PM you when I get there. You don't happen to have a girlfriend that you wouldn't mind sharing with me do you?

Actually, you nailed my sentiments exactly on a couple issues, primarily the Ego part. If she's had a lot of previous partners and chooses to stay with me, to me, that would be a great ego boost because I would assume that she was comparing me to her previous partners & the fact that she chose to stay with me means that I must be the best of the lot - or at least, not the worst - there's something about me that is so great to her that she's willing to stay with me in spite of my "failings" - maybe that's sex, maybe that's something else, point is, she's CHOOSING, to stay with me.

I think if I were to actually "fear" that my mate would run off with somebody else, it would be with an inexperienced partner due, as you say, to the "grass may be greener" idea, since she wouldn't have anyone to compare me to. Does that make me arrogant or just self confident?

Pokey,

Read the previous paragraphs. I think they pretty much explain that I would rather have a wife who had numerous previous partners than one who had very few. However, I can't really see me getting married. As I've mentioned in the past, I would only consider marriage if there were children involved - in this day and age, accidentally knocking up a woman is unlikely for me, since I keep it covered. If I have any kids out there, they'd be at least in their teens by now - if she's managed to raise them without me for this long, why would she need to marry me?

JZ,

No, I don't have access to your PM's. I do believe, however that we pretty much agree on most things from a "big picture" point of view. It seems to me that you like to disagree with me though, so you have a tendancy to get pedantic (one pedant to another - pot calling the kettle black?) in order to find some point to debate with me.

SM,

I think the whole "virgin worship" thing goes way back to the stone age, when monogamous relationships were declared a "good thing" by the local shaman. If a man has to be financially responsible for offspring which are presumed to be his, then the only way to know that they're his and not somebody elses, is if the wifey has never had sex with another man. (In this day and age, though, I suppose a DNA test should be able to cancel out this entire argument.) I'm pretty sure that's part of why society in general frowns upon short engagements (after all, if she's not a virgin, she could have been knocked up by a previous partner).

It may also be part of the reason why I wouldn't want to share my wife (wives) with another man. Once she's with me, I don't want her to be with another man. Who she's been with in the past doesn't really bother me, in fact, as I've said earlier in this post, it's actually a bit of an ego boost to me if she's been with a lot of guys in the past & chooses to stay with me.

CW

PsyberZombie

10-10-04, 01:29

YIKES !!

Take a 'Chill Pill' , RN

Joe Zop

10-10-04, 02:19

You spout off all this hyperbolic blather about prostitutes as though it wasn't a direct insult about RN's character, and when she shoots back in a fairly mild manner you tell her to chill out?

That's hilarious! Do you always go around punching people and then admonishing them about their anger issues?

PsyberZombie

10-10-04, 02:23

Joe Zop remarks =

That's hilarious! Do you always go around punching people and then admonishing them about their anger issues?

To quote the Old Zen Masters =

" Hatred consumes the Hater ; Anger consumes the Angry "

PsyberZombie

10-10-04, 02:33

To quote yet another Old ZEN Saying =

" Questions are a Burden to Others

... Answers : a Prison for One's Self "

Rubber Nursey

10-10-04, 03:54

That wasn't anger. That was sarcasm. (And just in case anyone out there thought otherwise, I don't personally believe ANY of the stereotypes I listed below).

I SHOULD be angry - if I had written a *Psyche of the Monger* full of degrading stereotypes and baseless statistics and tried to pass it off as fact, there would have been a lot of people angry with ME. Everybody here knows I was a worker, but people still post these derogatory comments (with monotonous regularity) as though I'm not even 'in the room' with them. One half of me is frustrated and saddened by the lack of understanding shown by some mongers on this board - the other half is laughing uncontrollably at the thought that some mongers think fucking a few hookers qualifies them as experts on the inner-workings of a sex worker's mind. I AM one of those girls, but I don't propose to understand the psyche of EVERY sex worker. Am I the only one who finds it funny when I say how *I* feel, as a sex worker, and everyone tells me I'm WRONG???

As for it taking a 'special kind' of woman to be a hooker - you're right, it does. Just as it takes a 'special kind' of person to work in an abattoir, or a morgue, or to cut people open in a surgery, or to wipe old ladies asses in a nursing home, or to shoot other human beings in the army...
We are all wired differently, which is a blessing because otherwise there would be nobody out there doing the 'nasty' but necessary jobs in our society.

Rubber Nursey

10-10-04, 04:25

Cash Works,

"OK, that settles it, I'm selling the house & business and moving to Perth! I'll PM you when I get there. You don't happen to have a girlfriend that you wouldn't mind sharing with me do you?"

Not at the moment - but if you're willing to let me FIND a girlfriend to share you with, then I think I've finally found my perfect man!! LOL :)

"I think if I were to actually "fear" that my mate would run off with somebody else, it would be with an inexperienced partner due, as you say, to the "grass may be greener" idea, since she wouldn't have anyone to compare me to. Does that make me arrogant or just self confident?"

I don't think it makes you either. We have the luxury of knowing just how good (or bad) it can be in the bedroom, so when we choose to settle with someone, we're making an educated decision as to whether its good enough to 'sacrifice' the variety in exchange for monogamy. Someone with limited experience may feel they haven't really been around enough to make that decision. Its human nature to want what we can't have, or try something we haven't tried before.

And as a woman who has had...errr....LOTS of partners, I would think that a comparatively inexperienced boyfriend may also feel like I'm 'one up' on him. That *I* may know what I want thanks to my experience, but that he hasn't had the same chance. (Add to that the blow to his masculinity, having a girlfriend who has 'sewn more wild oats' than he has). I would prefer to date an ex-monger who has been with many women, than an inexperienced man - at least then both of us are on a relatively equal standing as far as our past experience goes.

PsyberZombie

10-10-04, 13:55

RN writes =

We are all wired differently, which is a blessing because otherwise there would be nobody out there doing the 'nasty' but necessary jobs in our society.

" Nasty but necessary "

That's an Interesting characterization of Prostitution , RN

I read that Article you posted about the sex lives of hookers in Australia

... but as I mentioned earlier , I am discussing AMERICAN P4P Workers [my Essay does *not* apply to , say , Korean AMP workers ]

I'll bet if you did a Study of American Prostitutes , you'd find the Incidence of Prior Sexual Abuse ; Drug &/or Alcohol Addiction ; and the presence of Inherent Psychiatric Disorders would be much , *much* higher than any reference population you could compare them to

Why you find this So Offensive is a Mystery to me =

My essay "On the Psyche of the Sex Worker" is based on my anecdotal experiences , to be sure

... but I don't see any·one here arguing with my basic Premise

Joe Zop

10-10-04, 15:40

"... but I don't see any·one here arguing with my basic Premise"

Then you can't read very well either, that's for sure.

And your statements are offensive because you're an absolutist who makes generalized stereotypical statements as though they're self-evident fact. Don't "bet" about a study -- cite some actual evidence for your blanket assertions.

Rubber Nursey

10-10-04, 19:02

Actually, I wrote 'nasty' (in inverted commas) - as in SOME people think its nasty. Obviously, I don't. All the other jobs I mentioned would be considered nasty by many as well, myself included, but I certainly wouldn't say there is anything wrong with the people who do them. One of the jobs that I would NEVER contemplate, is being a doctor. How could anyone give other people needles all day? And I find the thought of taking a scalpel to someone else's flesh horrifying, but that certainly doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with people who become doctors.

YOU obviously find the thought of having sex with strangers for money abhorrent and your 'theories' assume that sex workers feel the same way. (Most evident when you said "Self·degradation is a large component of these gals' Motivation"). You seem to see prostitution as a means of self-torture or punishment or a perpetuation of some form of earlier abuse. I certainly don't see it that way - and if you take away the self-degradation component, where does that leave your theory?

And you can't tell me that American sex workers (as a whole) are essentially different to any other hookers in the world, either. I know prostitution is illegal in most of America, but its illegal in my state too. Brothel workers are 'relatively' safe (althought the brothel owners aren't), but private workers are still harassed to a certain extent and street-based work is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And that's what you're talking about here, anyway. Street workers. According to local stats, 80% of our street girls are heroin users, many are homeless and most have been abused as children and continue to be abused as adults. HOWEVER, street-based workers account for only 2% of our sex worker population. Thats about 70 street girls, out of the three and a half thousand other workers who do not fit neatly into that little 'victim' box that you painted. I know percentages of street workers are higher in the US and I know the street girls do it tougher there than they do here - but they are still street workers and they still have different issues to other American sex workers.

If you did a study of American street workers, I'm sure your 'facts' would be pretty spot on. But for women who work in brothels, escort agencies, private apartments, homes, bars and casinos, its a whole other story. Perhaps a private worker doing $20 blow jobs would fit into the box, but what about the escort charging $300 an hour. Or the Nevada brothel worker charging over $500 an hour? Do they seem like victims to you?

Rubber Nursey

10-10-04, 19:23

Before anyone jumps on me about that last paragraph -- its not about the money. Its about self-worth. Some girls charge the big bucks because they feel they're worth it. Some do it cheap, but insist on condom use. Some may even do it cheap and without a condom, but they'll turn down rude clients and won't do anything that compromises their personal boundaries. Either way, it says she knows she's worth something more.

PsyberZombie

10-10-04, 23:31

RN writes =

"According to local stats, 80% of our street girls are heroin users, many are homeless and most have been abused as children and continue to be abused as adults"

"If you did a study of American street workers, I'm sure your 'facts' would be pretty spot on."

So I guess that means You AGREE with my Basic Premise , RN

Rubber Nursey

10-11-04, 01:06

Let's see...

"** On The Psyche of the Sex Worker **

How does a perfectly normal little girl go from playing with Dolls , to grow up and start sucking Dicks for a Living ??
Almost always , there has been some *huge* psychological damage to her Ego [ and I mean 'Ego' in the psychiatric sense ; *not* the Lay sense ]"

Your 'basic premise', from this and from previous posts, was that ALL sex workers are 'screwed up' before entering the industry. Your theory may well apply to MOST street-based workers (not all - I've met a couple of perfectly level headed street workers over the years), but it most certainly does not apply to ALL sex workers. When you consider the numbers of street workers in the world, compared to other workers, I would say only small numbers of sex workers actually fit your profile.

Don't try telling me your 'basic premise' was all about American street workers in the first place, because it wasn't. You never made any distinctions between street workers and other workers. This was originally about whether you could ever date an EX sex worker - to which you said they were ALL too screwed up for a normal relationship. (And you wonder why I was offended??)

For the record, I do NOT agree with your basic premise. Your 'theory' is nothing new - its what the newspapers and TV shows and movies have been saying for years. Its also what drug rehabs, police forces, Governments and social workers have been saying for years. The only people you WON'T hear that theory coming from, is US - the sex workers - the ones who people insist on speaking for, even though we have voices of our own.

Joe Zop

10-11-04, 03:10

".. but as I mentioned earlier , I am discussing AMERICAN P4P Workers"

Yes, and earlier you said, "Both Joe Zop and Pokey surely must know that any woman who turns to the Sex Industry to "Make Ends Meat" has "Issues" that make them not trust·worthy enough to *ever* be a Signficant Other

"The only exception to this Rule would be the gal who was merely an 'Exotic Dancer' in a high·class Strip Club where No Contact with the dancers was allowed"

You later clarified the latter statement to include any woman who is "a Lap Dancer , who is basically a Hooker of a lessor degree."

Your basic premise has been "that it takes some·one who's messed up to get into the Sex Trade in the First Place."

So are you saying this about all American P4P workers? Only streetwalkers? Only streetwalkers plus maybe lap dancers who happen to be blonde and walk with a limp and who allow groping in the back room after the music ends? Kindly clarify.

PsyberZombie

10-11-04, 14:04

To : Joe Zop

My premise applies to American Sex Workers , what·ever form that that may take

There's basically No Difference between a Lap Dancer and a SW

In fact , you often find that as these gals age , they tend to change their 'Specialty' =

A Hot young Chick may start out as a high·priced escort or Stripper / Lap Dancer ; only to be forced in·to Massage Work or Street Walking as their looks fade

As RN says = P4P workers can speak for them·selves
... but a lot of what they say is designed to Deceive and Manipulate you

This is why Guys constantly find them·selves 'helping' a Sex Worker ; but they never seem to work up quite as much Empathy for their down·on·their·Luck Neighbor

I'm just warning you not to Trust one of these gals any furthur than they can spit your Load , that's all

Rubber Nursey

10-11-04, 14:33

Gee -- how could a gal possibly be offended by that???

Freeler

10-11-04, 16:06

Jeez,

Not even Adle'z plus aliases uses phrases like:
"I'm just warning you not to Trust one of these gals any furthur than they can spit your Load , that's all"

:(!

Joe Zop

10-11-04, 16:27

Well, please count me as one who finds your premise to be utterly full of baloney. Your posts on this are just big generalized assertions that tell nothing actual, nothing evidenciary, nothing with a Detail, nothing discernable about personal experience. It's just a generic spew of venom, which makes your advice of far less use than even that spit load.

And I, for one, not only do have empathy but also help my down-on-the luck neighbors in a variety of ways. Having empathy doesn't necessarily make you a sucker, but entirely lacking it does make you a jerk.

Dickhead

10-11-04, 21:13

One way to Add a Lot of additional Credibility to your Posts is to randomly Capitalize about every Third word and to avoid Using periods

Especially if You make a New paragraph every sentence

This makes you Appear to be more Educated and perceptive than You would otherwise

If you Don't believe me Just ask Nibu

Rolly Polly

10-11-04, 21:20

Since when did Nibu make different paragraphs?

By the way, I'm back in town and will try to catch up so I can spew my some venom as well. :)

Dinghy

10-12-04, 04:12

I did a report based on "local efforts to control prostitution in Thailand" that is posted in the "living in Thailand section"

PsyberZombie

10-12-04, 11:15

Apparently , some of you here take Great Offense at my suggestion that virtually Every American P4P Worker is screwed·up mentally ; and shouldn't be Trusted

My Mother used to say =

" If you fall out of that tree and break your leg , Don't come running to me !! "

Well , if you ignore my Advice and some Hot Hooker talks you in·to 'helping' her [ which 'help' will *always* be Financial in one way or the other ]

... and then you get *burned* =

Don't say I didn't Warn you !!

PsyberZombie

10-12-04, 11:32

Seen on the 'Letters to the Editor' Board , and written by Yours Truly , natch !! ==>

p.s. I don't appreciate Dickhead's Ad Hominem Attacks on me on that board ; but they aren't bad enough *yet* to warrant an Official Complaint

Don't make me click on that "Report this Post" line , D•H

Keep it Civil , is all I'm saying

... and Lose the Derogatory Comments about my Style of Writing , if you would be so kind.

[ The 'period' at the End of that last Sentence was Just for You ;) ]

Daddy Rulz

10-12-04, 13:42

I don't think anybody who has spent any time here in sex prison can disagree with PS's basic premise that a lot of American sex workers have prior history of psychological damage. Of course nothing is ever all inclusive and there will always be exceptions to every rule but of the vast majority there will be history's of sexual abuse, drug addiction, abusive relationships ect.

Personally I think that would apply more to SW than escorts web independents or agency types. Working as a SW is a lot more dangerous than when somebody knows where you are, and their phone has been verified. I don't think many people would put themselves in the position of most SW's here without having issues.

I don't see myself much as the settling down type either as Cash Works I enjoy variety far too much. If I ever did though it would never be the girl next door type. Give me a woman with a past everyday. Not only are they more experienced but they would naturally have less taboo's I would think because of that experience. (RN if I'm wrong feel free to jump on me, or to correct me though I think I would enjoy the jumping more) As far as I'm concerned the "girl next door" can stay there and yes I would take a former, or present, sex worker home to meet my Mom.

I don't know if I would want to settle down with somebody presently in the profession though. This has less to do with the work than the fact that a Carpenters house always needs work and a the Barbers kids always need haircuts. I can see it already, after a hard days work my Lady comes home and I want some loving and she has seen FAR to many penises for one day. It never fails to amaze me that the old double standard applies with so many men on this board. It's ok for us to session with 100's of women but for a lot of men here their contempt for the providers is barely concealed.

A couple of asides,

RN, why would a bloke want to stop with you bringing home "A" friend, come to the States and you can bring home as many friends as can fit on the bed in any variety. If needed we can get a bigger bed. I only ask to be able to help from time to time, watch a few times more than that, and hear ALL the stories.

I agree with Dickhead about the whole Tradesmen/Professional theory. There are a lot of P4P women that share their amateurs conviction that all it takes for a good session is a vagina. whatever work you choose do it well but it doesn't take the same amount of preparation to be a good provider as it does to be a good Neurosurgeon. By the way Dickhead I would be quivering as a result of PS's threat to hit the "report" button, what a sissy.

Cash Works, we could both sell our stuff, move to Perth and compete for yon Maidens heart. I reckon she could come up with an interesting friend, or two :) for the one she didn't pick.

I reckon all I'm saying is why not remove the cultural bias from our thinking. If I could get paid for DATY I would be one rich happy man. If an attractive caring woman wants to accept some of my hard earned dollars for a good GFE than why not give her the respect she deserves.

DR

Rolly Polly

10-12-04, 15:31

PsyberZombie,

How about the sex workers in the US that are "working" their way through school?

When I first started this hobby I used to frequent escorts (until that starting to kill my bank account). One escort I used 3 or 4 times was a girl that was in nursing school. I even dropped her off at class one day after a rendevous. She has since retired from sex work and is a full time nurse. Is she a mental case also?

Sex work industry cannot be generalized. There are strippers that do "favors", escorts, and SW's and then some that are on drugs or not on drugs in each of those categories. to lump escorts and crack head SW's in the same generalizations is obviously flawed.

I would say that trust is a serious issue with most sex workers and a general policy to trust none is not a bad policy to have. Certainly it is a safe policy to have. This doesn't mean that you can't find a trust worthy sex worker, but caution for the sake of protecting your assets and profile is a smart move.

Most of my mongering is with SW's and there are a few that I frequent that I can swear are trust worthy to me, but I don't let myself get complacent for fear of a bad thing happening.

Rubber Nursey

10-12-04, 16:38

Rolly Polly,

Welcome back. :) Hope you enjoyed your trip.

"This doesn't mean that you can't find a trust worthy sex worker, but caution for the sake of protecting your assets and profile is a smart move".

I agree with you on that, completely. I would recommend that workers never trust a client either, for the same reasons. When it comes down to it, you are two strangers, alone, without the protection of the law. She could steal your wallet, he could beat me up. I watched clients constantly in case they turned violent, took the condom off, tried to do me anally...any number of things could go wrong. I only trusted long-time regulars and even a couple of them proved that they couldn't be entirely trusted.

But why should this lack of trust extend to an EX sex worker, who you are considering having a relationship with?

Daddy Rulz,

"Give me a woman with a past everyday. Not only are they more experienced but they would naturally have less taboo's I would think because of that experience".

What sort of taboos?

Rolly Polly

10-12-04, 16:52

Some things are hard to make disappear. Let's say there is a famous black jack player, who is the best cheat in town. So much so that if he walks into a Vegas casino all cameras are on him along with the watchful eye of undercover security.

Now, 10 years later, he gives up cheating and black jack all together, but 5 years after that he wants to start playing again in an honest way. He's 100% sincere in his honesty, but is he going to be trusted?

I know of a few escort types that did it for drug money, but most escorts I know had better intentions. I'm not sure that the stigma would apply to all sex works, but I'm not sure I would ever trust a reformed SW, who used to be a crack head.

Once again, it's tough to lump all sex workers in one category.

Daddy Rulz

10-12-04, 17:14

RN

Taboo's:

I may have expressed myself poorly, perhaps inhibitions would have been a better word. What I'm talking about is activity's that a lot of women here in sex prison would hesitate to engage in because "it's not done or proper".

Having been a sex worker you choose to disregard "conventional morality" in place of your own. I think when one does that it is natural to perhaps re-examine other "conventional morality". For example, the fact that monogamy and commitment are not synonyms, that perhaps you might enjoy being with different variations of partners. I think having had more sexual experience's with more men than non-providers it puts you in a position to evaluate experience's on their merits and if you enjoy them as opposed to having pre-conceived opinions. If you don't like anal it's not because somebody told you it was bad but because you tried it and don't like it.

For myself in making the decision to monger extensively in BsAs I have discovered that there really is nothing wrong or un-natural about my healthy sexual appetite. I enjoy a variety of sex with a variety of partners. I'm not an unattractive man, I have a decent job, I'm articulate and playful. I've never had a problem meeting or seducing women I just tired of all of the difficulties involved when a casual sexual relationship suddenly turned more than casual. I find in mongering I can play as I like without having things turn messy when a woman discovers that I really was serious when I said I had no intention of being involved in a monogamous relationship. In disregarding conventional morality (prostitution is bad, the women are *****s and the men are losers) I've allowed myself to be what I am, and enjoy what I do without shame. I think some of the women I am with can sense that lack of shame and the session perhaps becomes more enjoyable for them as well. Most of the women I have sessions with I do so because I just don't think they are hot but also because they seem to project a feeling of friendlyness and I do believe that we connect on more than a physical level. Not being in love, but rather being in like if you will allow. Though I could be wrong and just happen to have an eye for good actresses.

Then again I may be full of shite and assigning values because I would like to fantasize about these women having them. How the hell would I know I've never lived that life. If I'm wrong and need "correction" just tell me where and when ma'am.

:)

DR

Rubber Nursey

10-12-04, 17:28

"Let's say there is a famous black jack player, who is the best cheat in town".

You're talking about someone we KNOW is a cheat - with sex workers, you're automatically PRESUMING she's untrustworthy, just because she's a sex worker.

I don't understand this trust thing, at all. If you're a liar, you're a liar. If you're a thief, you're a thief. But if you're a sex worker - you have sex for a living. Yes, there are liars and thieves who also work as sex workers. But I don't understand how choosing to have sex for cash automatically makes us untrustworthy.

I wouldn't trust a client at work, for the safety reasons I already mentioned. But would I feel the same about a guy I was involved with, who happened to frequent sex workers a few years back? Of course not!

And are people here getting lying/deception/untrustworthiness confused with playing a part in a paid fantasy??? Maybe she is pretending to be someone she's not, maybe she is only pretending to enjoy sex with you, maybe she is really 40 even though she says she's 25 - but that's not a lie, its her job description. Just like being an actress. And if a girl is blatantly deceiving you so she can get money for her next hit, that's not because she's a hooker - its because she's a crack addict.

Joe Zop

10-12-04, 18:06

I confess that I also just don't get this whole trust thing -- that's the reason I brought up actors/actresses before, because it's their job to give illusion, to play a part. Same same sex workers. But if I shouldn't worry about the truthfulness of an actor/actress when they're not on stage (now, ego and/or ego fragility can be a different issue, as can be the question of whether some ever truly see themselves as being off-stage...) then why should I worry about the same thing with a retired sex worker?

Rolly Polly

10-12-04, 18:51

RN,

You come from a country that legalized sex work and I think that plays a big role. In the US, to be part of that industry you are automatically involved in some sort of deceit.

If sex work was illegal across the board in every country would you not put it in a category of a shadey form of business?

I mentioned car salesman and lawyers before because they both have stigmas, but neither is all bad or all good. Many, if not all, industries have stigmas and stereotypes as do races and religions, but it's not a rule to live by.

Some sex workers have partners, sometimes called "drivers", that they work with to hustle people. So, obviously they are not all hustlers, but there is enough corruption in the industry that makes a red light go on.

Rubber Nursey

10-12-04, 19:08

No - I come from a country with 8 States and Territories, three of which currently have some form of legalised prostitution (basically brothels only) and one that has total decriminalisation. In the other half of the country its still illegal, my State included.

I don't think sex work is shady. What's shady about it? Its exactly the same as having casual sex with multiple partners, only you get paid for it. Our TVs show advertisements for online 'dating' services, that make no secret of the fact that the people listed there are looking for no-strings attached sex with strangers. That's 'legitimate' enough to advertise on the telly - but doing exactly the same thing for cash is somehow a crime.

And I realise that there are a lot of groups out there that have to deal with certain stigmas, thanks to a few bad eggs ruining their reputations. But would you change your mind about dating a girl if you discovered she was an ex-real estate agent? Or lawyer? Or politician?

Rolly Polly

10-12-04, 19:21

The legitimacy or illegitimacy of any industry is decided by the people in the industry, not the industry itself.

I'd be willing to put a wager on the fact that a nice size portion of sex workers around the world (maybe even a majority) in all aspects of the industry have been involved in some form of scam, theft, or hustler type deal at least once.

Rubber Nursey

10-12-04, 19:24

Ok - but WHY? Tell me WHY you'd be willing to make that bet. Tell me what makes you so sure that 'maybe even a majority' of sex workers have been involved in some sort of scam or theft.

Rolly Polly

10-12-04, 19:42

Mainly because I said all aspects of sex work all over the world. In that, I am including the ones who do it for drugs and alcohol, the ones who are in the industry as scammers from the get go, and the ones who are trying to make a quick honest buck.

Also, certain areas of the world are more famous for having the potential of getting ripped off. Let's take Cuba for instance. Most of the girls there are in the sex industry because otherwise they can't afford things like soap, tooth paste, food, and clothes. Many of these girls are the sweetest little things you'll ever meet, but turn your head and they will rob you blind.

The ones that are in it to make an honest buck are the minority. If you look at it from your perspective of why you were in the industry and what kind of person you are today then everything looks rosey, but that is not a world wide representation of the industry.

Dickhead

10-12-04, 21:59

"maybe she is really 40 even though she says she's 25 - but that's not a lie, its her job description."

Bullshit. Of course it is a lie. It is absolutely a lie and in my ex-country could also be construed as fraud: misrepresentation of a material (at least for some mongers) fact upon which a contract was based and for which monetary or other consideration was given.

Anything anyone says that is not the truth is a lie. Your credibility is diminished by saying otherwise.

Murilloa

10-12-04, 22:13

incident in the office

(posted on my home board, lisbon, please go there fellow mongers if you are ever likely to visit the capital of portugal, we are proud of our girls. this is a true story, with some relevance maybe)

there’s a lovely woman at work, mentioned in an earlier post, a cashier-secretary. she has a charming-not-glamorous thin pale freckly face; hazel eyes, nice teeth, long copper-colour hair, and a petite curved slender body that sometimes tops the bill in mur’s erotic daydreams when lori is ‘off duty’. right now she’s resplendent in mini-t-shirts, showing back, bra strap, shoulder and flat midriff, all tanned to light mocha – and tight pink or black jeans showcasing a butt to sigh, cry and die for, which stands proud on her shapely legs, thanks to heels that set her taller than her male colleagues (not difficult). a botticelli girl, for those of you who visit art galleries between shagging sessions.

she got married in may, aged 27. her body remains that of a 17 year old, and she’s still at the stage of this relationship where the sex is non-stop. she often arrives in the morning with a delicious fragrance of fresh fucking hovering around her like an erotic aura. this is a relaxed friendly workplace but not the kind where sex chatter and banter are always flying around. muri would not permit that. the guys sometimes flirt a little; she teases sweetly back, but always within the limits of decorum. she regards mur as a nice fatherly old dear, and for his part he treats her with affectionate, scrupulous respect and frankly feels a tad guilty when he catches himself dreaming of peeling down those tight trousers.

monday, muri was bent over a colleague’s pc, examining a dismal spreadsheet. drowning in excel ennui, he was also tuning in to a conversation across the room. two men, a colleague and a visitor, were discussing prostitution. ana (we shall call her) was at her own workstation, pecking the keyboard with pretty polished nails, her new ring winking on an exquisite finger.

mur caught the essence of the conversation (in english). it was “once a prostitute, always a prostitute, how can you ever respect a girl who’s been a wh*re, how can a man dip his cock where so many others have spunked, once a girl starts opening her legs for anybody she’ll be doing it all her life, any deluded fucker who falls in love with an ex-pro will get the cuckolding he deserves, etc etc”.

and the stranger came out with the eternally stupid cliché: “i’ve never needed to pay for it, i’ve got a real life, a guy who pays for sex is a sad sack, i always shagged for free and now i’m married i’ve got everything i want at home, believe me.” with more drivel to the same effect, a foolish conceited smirk on his face. like saying that because you know how to cook at home, you’ll never go spending your money in a restaurant.

purse your lips and stay cool and professional, muri, there is no point getting involved, so concentrate on that spreadsheet. if they do not stop in five minutes, ask them politely to get on with their jobs, meanwhile do not enter the fray…

but it was ana who erupted. she swivelled on her chair so hard it moved into the middle of the room and she said (very fast in portuguese, so this is a rough translation),

“men are such liars and hypocrites! how dare you disrespect a girl who does prostitution? a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body and if men want to buy sex why shouldn’t she offer? she doesn’t degrade herself, it’s you guys who degrade yourselves by talking shit. and don’t go like ‘i’ve never paid for it’, that’s the biggest mountain of shit of all, because every man has paid for it, at some time or another, every single one of you, why do you think there are thousands of prostitutes in lisbon, it could be your wife or your sister, your girlfriend, you wouldn’t even know, you’re so sure of yourselves, they’re just ordinary women and sure, they do sex for money, there are millions of other people earning money in criminal ways, cruel ways, so leave these women in peace, the reason you despise them is because you’re secretly wanting to be doing ‘broches’ for money yourselves, and i repeat - all men have paid! even ***** (murilloa’s real name) has probably paid for it some time or another…!”

these last words were uttered more quietly, almost sadly, looking into muri’s eyes.

‘even *****’!!

if only she knew!

first reaction was, how ironic, that because he is quiet, reserved and cultured, (yeah, and old and tubby) muri should be regarded as the most unlikely monger on the block. then he thinks, ‘holy shit! has she seen me somewhere and this is her way of reproaching me?’ a gorgeous complicated moment.

ana was livid, she had just been racked by a kind of anger-orgasm, her face mottled red-and-white, her chest blushing angrily, a blue vein throbbing in her neck, her lovely firm breasts heaving inside her pale blue top. a tiny jewel of perspiration showed on her upper lip as she looked at mur. he had to grit his teeth and clench his fists, repressing his hot desire to take one stride across the room and lick it off with the tip of his tongue before thrusting it into her mouth. a wonderful sight, this beautiful, fully aroused woman. but why, he will always wonder, why did the subject annoy her so much? is it possible that she…? …another idea to be driven straight underground.

during a five-second freeze, the guys looked dumbly at each other as if to complain, “what’s got into her?” then ana came down from her passion, hung her lovely head of hair, mumbled “disculp’-lá” – “sorry”, and turned round pretending to work, rising a minute later for a protracted visit to the bathroom. later she and colleague could be seen exchanging friendly apologies. she made two transparent attempts to get muri on his own, doubtless to apologise for including him in her ‘j’accuse’ tirade; but he avoided the occasion and left early. it was just too dangerous - alone with her, his british reserve would crack and he would kneel down on the floor sobbing, “adorable ana, if you have ever sold your body, i still respect you, in fact i love you, and i confess that i have indeed consorted with prostitutes once or twice in my humble life, but i have never abused or degraded them, and now please, i beg you, let me unfasten the straps of your sandals with my teeth.”

off to the ‘suiça’, where two cerveijas and a cigarette, the first smoke since england vs portugal, were required to stabilise the system before moving on to calçada do garçia, 7, third floor. here, €30 purchased the company of a very recommendable, firm young plumpish morena, renata - prounounced ‘hinata’, for the lady is an amerindian-type from belo horizonte, brazil. slow strip with hands wandering everywhere, expert hand job with varied pace and motion, clever covered bj and three positions, explosion in ‘doggie’ with that ample rear writhing on the end of the spurting rod. great value for money, and mur left a tip.

but it was not of renata he thought as he walked home in the evening sun. nor did his mind turn to renata as he soaped his veteran equipment in the shower. nor was he dreaming of renata when he woke in the small hours with a familiar friend pushing up the duvet…

Cash Works

10-12-04, 23:45

Murilloa,

Very well written! I've often brought up "Ana's" argument here, so I'd have to say I agree with her.

Domino,

You start out talking about a "heroin smoking" prostitute friend and wind up quoting an Opium addicted author (laudnum, I think). You trying to tell us something about opiates?

The trust issue:

I know more than a couple of guys who are married to, or were once married to ex-prostitutes. None of these ex-prostitutes were American, most were South American (various countries) or Thai, a few from other parts of the world. I can't say that the divorce rate was any different for these guys than their counterparts who married non-pros. I've met a number of these women - both the ex-pros and the non-pros. Like the divorce rate, they're a mixed bunch - some nice, some not so nice. Their former occupations didn't seem to matter in this respect.

Of the divorced guys, I would have to say that at least half of them brought it on theirselves. One case I can think of was a guy who was married to an ex-prostitute who had a very good head on her shoulders when it came to business. She had invested in a number of small companies, she eventually bought out her partners and some of these companies became not-so-small. She was being invited to cocktail parties & "Socials" with the other business & community leaders (politicians) in town. Her husband resented the hell out of all this and eventually she gave him the boot because he was bad for business.

One of the guys I used to work with was married to a prostitute in Malta - she was still working after 10 years (might be wrong on the length of time) of marriage. This guy was one of the more colorful individuals I've ever worked with and was definitely not a "normal" person by any measure of the word "normal" but he thought it was great that she wanted to keep working after they got married - proved to him that she didn't want him just for his money.

Daddy Rulz,

I agree with you - I don't think I'd settle down with a woman who is currently working as a provider. As I said in a previous post, I don't play well with others (I guess the whole sharing thing just didn't sit well with me in kindergarten). If I were to settle down, I would TRY and stay with the women (please note, the plurality wasn't a mistake) I committed to & would expect the same from them in return.

20 years ago, when I was living in Brasil, one girlfriend I had (mentioned in previous posts as "the psycho") was a "semi-pro". When I was in Fortaleza, she didn't sleep with anyone but me, when I was at work, she would go to another city (Manaus or Belem usually) and work in a Brothel/massage parlor. I knew about this, but it really didn't bother me since I wasn't actually sharing her - when I'm not around, what she did was her business. I called her "the psycho" because she would get mad at me for NOT fooling around - she wanted me to fool around so she would have a reason to get mad at me, when I didn't, she'd get mad at me for not giving her a reason to get mad, etc. You get the idea? PSYCHO! I really don't think this had anything to do with her part-time profession, rather, I believe it was due to the "Novellas" or Brasillian Soap-Operas to which she was addicted. She didn't do drugs (despised them, actually) and she rarely drank alcohol - she didn't even smoke cigarettes.

Rolly Polly,

"I'd be willing to put a wager on the fact that a nice size portion of sex workers around the world (maybe even a majority) in all aspects of the industry have been involved in some form of scam, theft, or hustler type deal at least once."

I used to work in the Oil Industry. Some of my co-workers were ex-Halliburton employees. Some of these guys knew Dick Cheney (currently, the US Vice President, formerly CEO of Halliburton, for those of you who don't follow American Politics). Most of the guys who had met Mr. Cheney said that if he showed up on their front doorstep, they wouldn't let him in the house - if they did, they'd search him before letting him leave. I'll just leave this one alone for now, don't want to get involved in a political debate, just used him as an example, since he'd be "familiar" to a lot of people.

BlackJack Cheat:

One of the guys I used to work with was allegedly quite a poker player (played blackjack to relax). He said he was generally comped for everything when he went to Vegas & was even flown up there a couple of times for tournaments (commercial flights, since he wasn't a "Whale").

We were talking about cheaters one time & he mentioned a "black-list" or something that the Nevada Gaming Commission kept on proven cheats. If you ever made it on this list, you were apparently barred from ALL Nevada Casinos for life. He didn't know if there was any sort of appeal process, just said that you'd have to be an idiot to cheat in a Vegas Casino.

CW

PsyberZombie

10-13-04, 01:10

RN has a complaint about Yours Truly =

Every other nasty comment you've made about working girls indirectly insults me, and you know it.

My Posts here have been about AMERICAN Working Girls , RN

... but if the Shoe fits = Wear It !!

PsyberZombie

10-13-04, 01:15

BTW =

That 'Complaint' by RN was posted on the 'Letters to the Editor' Board

IMHO , that Board should be Reserved for Actual , Real LETTERS to JACKSON

... like MY Letter was

Heck , the Poor Guy has Enough to do around here with·out his 'Letters' Board being Cluttered Up with Reponses to Posts made on Boards like , say , *This One* !!

PsyberZombie

10-13-04, 01:49

To : Murilloa

You're Quite the Poet

... but What's your Point ??

Freeler

10-13-04, 04:57

RN,

"I come from a country with 8 States and Territories, three of which currently have some form of legalised prostitution (basically brothels only)"

It seems that a very important part of the sentence was left out for some reason: which three currently have some form of legalized prostitution?
I'd hate to end up in the wrong fukken state or territory!

Joe Zop

10-13-04, 05:38

"IMHO , that Board should be Reserved for Actual , Real LETTERS to JACKSON"

Such as your pathetic little whine about someone parodying your writing style? As if that wasn't an utter waste of Jackson's time but RN's somehow was? ROTFLOL!

Rubber Nursey

10-13-04, 09:16

I don't want to get into a pissing war with you, PsyberZombie. I was angry last night - but now I've lost interest.

DH -- You're right. It IS a lie. I was just looking at it in a different context. Where I worked, the receptionist took all the calls and described the girls and then the guys would choose to come down and meet us all based on the descriptions he was given on the phone. If he said, for example, that he was looking for someone around 21 - the receptionist would describe anyone who LOOKED around 21, whether they were or they weren't. That's what guys were looking for in most cases, anyway - someone who LOOKED 21. I personally looked 21 until I was about 26. The management figured there was no point telling them that I was 26 and making me sound so much older than I actually looked. Yes, that's still a lie though. I totally agree. For the record, when I worked for myself via the internet, I always said my real age and then added that I didn't really look that age. Clients usually appreciated the honesty.

There's a bit of a 'chicken and egg' thing about ages, though - working girls lie about their age and clients get annoyed, BUT, if we tell a client our age, he automatically adds a couple of years onto it because he presumes we are lying. I am a 30 year old who looks about 23/24. But if I tell a client on the phone that I'm 30, he will automatically presume that I'm probably really 35, so in his head he's picturing a 35 year old when in reality, I look ten years younger than that. It seems easier to say what age you LOOK, rather than what age you really are. If I say I'm 23, he probably presumes I'm in my late twenties anyway, so in that case he's actually closer to the truth. (Am I even making any sense any more?)

Freeler -- Victoria and Queensland have legal brothels. NT has legal escort agencies, but brothels are illegal. In NSW, all prostitution is decriminalised (the only state with legal street work). The ACT and Tasmania are currently reviewing their laws. In SA and WA, sex work is criminalised.

Daddy Rulz

10-13-04, 11:01

RN wrote:

I don't want to get into a pissing war with you, PsyberZombie. I was angry last night - but now I've lost interest.Please [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) all over him, I can't speak for the rest of the board but personally I dig it when you make him your b****.

Freeler

10-13-04, 14:47

RN,

'In SA and WA, sex work is criminalised.'

You, RN, native of Perth, are a criminal:(!?!?

I am deeply disappointed!

Joe Zop

10-13-04, 17:10

Well, RN, the whole age age thing has never been a real big one with me, but I've never mentally added a couple of years onto what someone tells me unless I can see by looking at someone in front of me that it's clearly warranted. There are any number of women in the business who have a truly exaggerated sense of how old/young they look -- I've had women who later admitted they were in their late thirties try adamantly to tell me they were in their early twenties, and even when reality was admitted they would try to get me to agree that's what they looked like. (Why would I say otherwise in the first place if I felt it were true? It's not because I'm being a boor.)

And I do get very pissed when an agency tells me someone is arriving who looks like X or Y and someone completely different arrives without explanation or, as often happens, someone arrives who is very clearly ten years older than was described. I find this especially galling because I don't usually say, "I want someone like this," but instead ask them to describe who's available and then make my choice from the descriptions. If I'm being told someone is twenty-one, I want them to be twenty-one, and if I'm told they're thirty I want them to be thirty. It's not up to an agency or receptionist to try to read my mind, it's up to them to let me know as truthfully as possible, what my options are. If I say I want someone who's going to suck my dick, I don't want the receptionist to decide what I really want is someone who'll give me a good wank. And if I say I want someone who's blonde and twenty, I'd rather be told, well, we've got a 23-year old blonde and an eighteen-year-old blonde as opposed to being told one of them is twenty.

To me, that is bait and switch. While I certainly hold nothing against the woman involved (unless she is an independent and thus the one involved in the deception) it is usually also an indicator that more of the same is coming -- some sort of hidden "fees" than don't get mentioned until she's in the door, a series of rules that conflict with what had been indicated, olympic-style clockwatching ("the hour actually started when I pulled up in front of your hotel" -- I actually had someone tell me that) and so on. I usually simply decline and never use such an agency or person again. And I make a clear point of saying why.

I understand the prejudice many mongers have against older sex workers, but if I'm asking for someone who is, say, nineteen, it's not because I want someone who, in the opinion of some receptionist who clearly has a prejudice and a sale to make, looks nineteen, it's more likely because I want to live out the fantasy of fucking an actual nineteen-year-old. Reality does matter when it infringes on fantasy, and fantasy only works when there's trust in an illusion. I sure as hell don't want to be sent someone who "looks latin" or "looks black" if I decide for whatever reasons I want to screw someone of a certain ethnicity.

PsyberZombie

10-13-04, 22:45

Daddy Rulz writes =

Please [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) all over [PZ] , I can't speak for the rest of the board but personally I dig it when you make him your b****.

Well , Count me OUT of That Fight !!

As Papa Psyber always says =

" Don't ever get in·to a Pissing Contest with a Skunk "

Rubber Nursey

10-14-04, 02:50

Freeler -- "You, RN, native of Perth, are a criminal!?!?"

Not exactly. The actual act of having sex for money is not illegal in Perth, but running a brothel, renting a place for the purpose of prostitution, soliciting, living off the earnings of prostitution, blah blah blah IS illegal.

When working in a brothel I am not soliciting and I am not renting premises (the brothel owner is) so I don't actually commit an offence. When working privately in my OWN HOME I am not committing a criminal offence, unless I have someone else on the premises (reception, driver, another worker) BUT I would be working in a residential premises without a business permit, which could get me in trouble with the local town council. If I rented a second apartment to work out of (like most girls do) I would be renting premises for the purpose, so I would be committing a criminal offence.

I've worked illegally a few times before - that is, renting an apartment with another girl and working together for our own safety - and on one occasion had a visit from Vice, who came to shut us down because our next door neighbour complained. (Actually she complained that clients were turning up at all hours of the night, there was lots of yelling, loud music, drunken men hanging around the carpark, etc - but my friend and I only worked from 10am - 4pm three days a week, so her complaints were slightly exaggerated). We weren't charged or anything (actually, the police came in and had a cuppa with us!) but we had our names taken and added to the dreaded 'register' and were told to pack up our stuff and not work out of the apartment again. A second warning would see us charged with running a brothel, because there were two of us working together.

Rubber Nursey

10-14-04, 03:52

Joe -- Let me just make it clear that I was talking about the receptionist giving descriptions over the phone to a man who was going to come down to the brothel and meet all of us before making his choice. If he gets there and finds that a couple of the so-called 21 year olds look much more like 25 year olds, he's just not going to pick them. If we had nobody anywhere near that age - or if he made a specific request for, say, an eighteen year old or a first-timer or a busty blonde or whatever - my boss would have said straight out "We don't have anyone here like that right now, BUT we do have a busty 20 year old brunette...etc".

But I won't for a minute try to excuse people who lie when it comes to escort. It's one thing to use a little 'creative advertising' to get guys into a brothel (like the old 'renovators dream' spiel used by real estate agents) but its a whole other thing to tell a guy you're sending one woman and then send another. Its bad for you guys and its bad for us girls as well - girls get beaten up for that sort of thing! (And its not even their fault, as they didn't make the booking). If we were to turn up and be sent home again, we'd still have to pay the driver for taking us there and we've missed a half hour or more of potential walk-ins at the brothel in our absence. I never went on an escort unless I knew, for sure, that the client had realistic expectations of me. (That includes NOT being told that I offer things that I don't actually offer!!) I trusted my boss implicitly on that front and would never have worked for her otherwise.

Dickhead

10-14-04, 04:12

But what if the client had to advertise himself to the girl? "I'm an old fat bald needle dick lame fuck who's half shit faced right now" comes to mind.

And there's even worse guys than me out there.

Rubber Nursey

10-14-04, 04:16

LOL -- trust me, that happens! You wouldn't believe how many tossers get on the phone and say "I have a huge dick/I'm really good at oral/I'm a male model/I'm really experienced - can I get a discount?"

Joe Zop

10-14-04, 04:30

"...my boss would have said straight out 'We don't have anyone here like that right now, BUT we do have a busty 20 year old brunette...etc'."

Yes, but of course that busty 20 year old might in fact have been a 26-year old...

I understand "creative advertising" but from my perspective that means I've basically been snookered into walking through the door with the expectation I'm going to see such and such, and you're saying, well, you can always contain your disappointment and settle for someone else. I don't like it when it happens with regular businesses, nor in this instance. Treat me like an adult, already, not a fucking idiot! I've walked from brothels a couple of times in such instances -- if I can't trust what I'm told when I can verify it with my eyes then I don't see how I can trust anything else.

As I said, I certainly never blame the worker in this instance, and I agree such tactics put her at higher risk. If such an occasion arises I generally call the agency and tell them specifically what I am doing and why. If I asked for someone and wasn't specific and simply decided that this wasn't going to work then I'll generally pay a reasonable transportation fee, but that's also an area where scams get tried -- send someone who is completely different from what I'm told and then tell me I need to pay half or all the agreed-upon fee and it's time for hotel security to come into the equation.

It's great that you worked with someone you can trust to behave properly, but as many have attested here, that's decidedly not always the case. Frankly, one of the positive aspects of decrimalization is that it would make it possible to have a kind of "Monger Better Business Bureau" -- which is what something like WSG could be if posting such info wouldn't result in the police knocking on doors.

PsyberZombie

10-14-04, 11:13

ahhh!! enlightenment !!

it's a *beautiful* thing !!

i see where my warnings to joe zop are finally 'getting through' ==>

it's great that you worked with someone you can trust to behave properly, but as many have attested here, that's decidedly not always the case

always remember pz's law , peeps :

" never trvst a hooker further than she can spit your load !! "

Rubber Nursey

10-14-04, 12:02

I know where *I'd* spit your load....

Ci-Traveler

10-14-04, 15:01

Lotsa quotes going on by PZ that he attributes to himself.

Psyber Zombie wrote:

"As Papa Psyber always says =
" Don't ever get in·to a Pissing Contest with a Skunk "

I beg to correct you - I said it in several posts on the Milwaukee board.....perhaps long before you.......during a flame war regarding the idiot Lefty.

But then - I didn't make it up (like you didn't) - I just use it (like you do).

ci-traveler

PS - this post is designed purposefully to create mass confusion so as to create further discussion of such.

Geez, I feel more like I did when I came in than I do now!

Cash Works

10-14-04, 15:10

RN & JZ,

Dishonest sales people are not restricted to the sex industry, used car dealerships or realestate. I used to have problems with clients (major oil companies) on a regular basis because sales people, would make promises that were, often times, physically or technologically impossible to achieve.

The problem was that these promises tended to make their way into a contract which was signed by people higher up the food chain in my company than me - the client would complain that we weren't delivering, the guy that signed the contract would be in it pretty deep & as the saying goes, it rolls downhill & somehow always ended up in my lap. I'd have to scramble to negotiate some alternative or we'd lose potential revenues with a helluva lot more zeros than are involved in the typical mongering session.

I was lucky for quite a few years, in that I was always successful in coming up with some alternative that made the client happy, others in my position, unfortunately were not and some of them actually lost their job as a result. Rumor has it that the sales guy and the guy who signed the contract, the guys who caused the problem, usually wound up with a bonus for my (or someone elses) effort in fixing their sloppy work.

From the clients point of view, I suspect they had some of these problems added to the contract intentionally so that they would later have an edge in negotiating something that my company didn't want to provide.

CW

Joe Zop

10-14-04, 15:45

PsychoZombie, I'd not pay attention to any warning you'd offer at this point if I were paid to do so. If you think you're the first or only one to mention here that there are unscrupulous people in the business, and if you think it's some kind of blindingly awesome point, well, you're even more full of yourself than you appear to be. It's quite a different issue from your blanket absolutist character assassination crapola. Saying there are unscrupulous car dealers, lawyers, politicians, whatever is very different from labeling all of them as damaged goods.

But then such distinctions appear lost on you, as you seem to have been one of those kids who only got two colors of crayon for coloring.

PsyberZombie

10-14-04, 22:11

" I know where *I'd* spit your load.... "

Do tell , RN !!

Dickhead

10-14-04, 22:14

My guess would be right back in your face.

PsyberZombie

10-14-04, 22:16

I really *Love* this Board !!

It's like dropping Hand•Grenades in a Koi Pond !!!

PsyberZombie

10-14-04, 22:42

To : Dick·Head

Ya know = your Style of Writing leaves a Lot to be desired

[ We're EVEN Now !! ]

Prokofiev

10-15-04, 00:27

PsyberZ . . .

Have you just recently lost your mind? Seems like during the last several weeks you pop up on numerous boards only to start a fight or insult someone. 50 posts in just the last week and all are just BS! Some are merely symbols. Another to congratulate yourself for 300 posts. WTF! A problem at home or has your medication run out? Please . . . push away from the keyboard and give everyone a break. We will all feel better.

Thanks, -P

Ci-Traveler

10-15-04, 04:50

Prokofiev,

Hey cmon man.....leave PZ alone. He's a WSG Benefactor man! You have to respect the fact that he has donated something - cash, time, or whatnot to the running of this board. You don't want to [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) him or Jackson off. Believe me, anyone who donates gets the special treatment man.

On the other hand - you do have a pretty good point.

Fuck the benefactor status.

PZ - you need to get some help bud. Really - all this negative flow........geez man - you could have some serious physical or mental issues occur if you keep it up. I'm worried for you bud! Get that Prozac or Zoloft back into your body. Yeah - I know - you would have trouble reaching orgasm - but at least you might get back to being the lovable, fun, positive person we all know.

ci-traveler

PsyberZombie

10-15-04, 11:10

To : Prokofiev and Ci-Traveler

Thanks for the 'wake·up call' , my friends !!

I hereby Resolve to be a Kinder , Gentler Zombie

And I'll especially try to be nicer to RN , who has taken personal offense at some of my opinions here , even though no offense was intended

Please let me know if any more Self·Flagellation is required

Sincerely & Remorsefully ,

»» PZ ««

Ci-Traveler

10-15-04, 15:02

I have been set straight on the benefactor status. Apparently, this is support that all goes to Argentine charity soup kitchens - Jackson passes all the money on.

I was misinformed and posted wrongly about it.

My regrets and apologies to Jackson for suggesting otherwise.

ci-traveler

Tea Boy

10-15-04, 18:18

Pokey stated (09-04-04) that "Prostitution is such a dirty filthy business". It is, but let's look at what makes it filthy and dirty.
(a) The unfair distribution of wealth and income. Many people, particularly in so-called Third World Countries, do not have the resources to earn a decent living by conventional means and are hence driven to prostitution through economic necessity. If someone becomes a prostitute because it is the only alternative to starvation, that is dirty.

Contrast this scenario with what happens at German FKK Clubs. There are women from Eastern Europe working there who are probably not as well off as native Germans, but these women could, without too much difficulty, earn a decent living doing a conventional job. They become prostitutes so that they can earn money to purchase luxuries without a lot of effort. Many of them appear to enjoy being prostitutes because they have chosen to be that. This is good, clean, morally acceptable prostitution.

(b) The criminalization of prostitution, which is foisted on many societies by the unholy alliance of powerful men in positions of power and sex-hating twisted women who want to maintain a tight grip on the genitals of their husbands. The powerful men who want to keep these laws include politicians who seek the votes of the afore-mentioned women, LE officers who enjoy the free services of prostitutes as a pay-off to avoid arrest, and clergymen who may belong to the 1% of the population who are reputedly "asexual". Regarding the last group, it would seem that there are a small number of people who are turned off by the messiness of sex. That's fine as long as it remains a personal choice, but some of these asexual people are apparently even disgusted by the knowledge that other people are doing it.

Once again it is useful to look at the German FKK's where prostitution is completely legal, and clean.

PsyberZombie

10-15-04, 23:25

Hi , Ci-Traveler !!

It's the Kinder , Gentler PsyberZombie here :) !!

I see that you're having some of Your own "Inter·Personal Issues" over on the Milwaukee , Wisconsin Board

Well , Nobody's Perfect !!

I've already Admitted that I'm just a Flawed Human Being ; and I've Apologized for Same

May·be YOU owe an Apology to LEFTY ???

»»» Just a Thought !!! :)

Cash Works

10-17-04, 15:50

this may be a little off topic, i just thought it was rather humorous.

i recorded a couple of shows on "the history channel" last night about sex during the (american) civil war. anyway, i just watched them this morning & thought they were quite interesting. apparently during the civil war, (early to mid 1860's, for those of you who are unfamiliar with american history) there were quite a few brothels in american cities. this was not just a result of the war, they had apparently always been around and were tolerated if not actually legal.

a couple of comments really made me take notice:

one was about how the clergy, particularly the tele-evangelist types are always calling our current era "wicked & depraved", primarily due to sexuality issues. according to these historians, during the victorian era, there was a lot more fucking going on than there is now.

the other comment was about all the brothels in washington, dc during the civil war. they were mostly rep001tered in an area between the white house and the capitol. general hooker (i mentioned him in a previous post) apparently had some of the brothels moved so that they were in a more concentrated area, for better policing & easier access. anyway, one of the historians was in modern day washington, pointing out where a lot of these brothels had been located in the past. all, it seems have been replaced by various museums and government buildings, there was one comment that really made me laugh though. when he showed the irs building (internal revenue service - our federal tax collectors), he said something like "i find it rather facinating that they're doing the same thing to people at that location now as they were 150 years ago". whether he meant they're still fucking people, or they're still taking peoples money, i'll never know, whichever he meant, i'm sure that it was a far more pleasurable experience 150 years ago!

cw

Ci-Traveler

10-17-04, 16:22

PsyberZombie wrote:

"May·be YOU owe an Apology to LEFTY ???

»»» Just a Thought !!! "

My reaction? You love Lefty! You always jump on the bandwagon when he is posting.

Me? I think what Lefty does for the board is silly, stupid, and demeaning - and he writes lies and fiction that gets no one nowhere (is that imploring a double negative???).

Otherwise he's an okay, standup kind of guy.

Apolgize for what? Everything I've posted has been truthful and accurate. We only apologize when we have clearly done something that was wrong. I would enjoy seeing him leave the board permanently (although that will never happen), and I have no problem saying that. I don't WANT a cozy, fuzzy online relationship with him.

But thanks for thinking of me.

ci-traveler

Pokey

10-17-04, 19:41

Tea boy, you took me a little out of context, but I guess I did say that on 9/3/04. I was responding to how bad prostitution was if my daughter ever got involved in it. I was also responing to RN's agenda of promoting sex work as a noble profession/trade like nursing, teaching, or ballet dancing.

If someone becomes a prostitutes because it's the only choice over starvation I would not believe it would damage her as she is only surviving. But, when your only thinking about where your next meal is coming from, you don't think of such things as" I'm I happy". Is this the life for me".

There are a few people on this board who say, its bullshit that she has to sell her ass to survive, that other people learn to get by on little money. ( I don't make those judgements)

German, FKK clubs, those sound hot and interesting. I must try them one day. If they enjoy it so much, and there is no stigma and no law against it. I just wonder why all the local German girls, and housewifes don't do it too.

So the unholy alliance of powerful men and sex-hating twisted women are the reason of laws against prostitution. Well, I could go along with this, but there are others like me, who think prostitution is better off being illegal for a number of reasons.

Tea Boy

10-19-04, 02:55

Pokey,

Thanks for your response, and sorry I misquoted you. I was interested in your remark about a number of reasons why it is better for prostitution to be illegal. I came across one of your posts about Freud and the Id. I agree that some sort of regulation of prostitution is desirable, similar to the licensing laws for the sale of alcohol. When I moved to Sri Lanka I chose to live in an area where prostitutes are NOT freely available (due to social attitudes and harsher policing), so that I have to make a two-hour journey to indulge my hobby. I am aware that I have a propensity to addiction. However, I would not agree that that prostitution should be any more illegal than alcohol, which does a lot more harm to individual health and to society.

I guess the reasons more German girls don't become prostitutes are: (a) Although prostitution is legal there is still a social stigma attached to it. (b) The cost/benefit ratio for the girl is too high in view of the risk of disease etc. (c) It appears to be only a small minority of women who enjoy sex with multiple partners in contrast to the much larger minority of men who do so. Whether this is purely due to biology or whether social conditioning has a part to play I am not sure.

I would not agree that prostitution is as noble a profession as nursing or teaching. However, I think a great prostitute deserves the same sort of love and respect that is accorded to a great chef or musician. Yes, Anne-Sophie Mutter playing the Beethoven Violin Concerto.

Tea Boy

Tea Boy

10-19-04, 12:09

This is in response to two remarks made by RN and Joe Zop respectively.

One of the things I found the strangest was the number of guys who wanted to DATY. Women all over the world - including me in my private life! - were complaining that not enough men will do it. And yet here they were, coming in and PAYING me for it! It was quite bizarre.

Again, sex is also about smell and taste, so why would I possibly draw a line where those were outside of the equation? As far as guys paying to DATY, hmm, well, is that somehow more off the wall than paying to be dominated, etc.? If I remember correctly you related any number of far stranger things guys have paid for than eating out.

But I've gotta confess I've never understood the whole DATY thing, anyway, in terms of it being tough to come by. I can't think of a single relationship I've had where it hasn't been an integral and regular part of coupling. Maybe that's just me, but from reading this board I don't think so.

I have never had the good fortune to be in a relationship where DATY was "an integral and regular part of coupling", so that may be why I seek it with working girls, and it becomes a peak experience for me when the girl has an orgasm during DATY. I imagine that those women who complain to RN about not getting enough of it also want to be romanced by charming personable men who treat them to a wonderful dinner, take them home, and then go down on them. It would seem that many of these charming personable men, who are in a minority anyway, can't be bothered spending their time and money in this way or, if they do splash out it will be in expectation of a nice BBBJ followed by intercourse. If there were more women who would just go up to an ordinary bloke, perhaps a work colleague, and say "Let's go for dinner and then you can come home and lick me out", they would be happier and less men would need to pay for sex. But that's in a place called Utopia.

Rubber Nursey

10-20-04, 11:35

Guys - when did I say that prostitution was a 'noble' profession? Its a job. Not a seedy, self-destructive lifestyle choice; not a glamourous and desirable career. Just a job. Sex workers perform a necessary service in society, just like any other worker in any other job does, be it a doctor or a checkout chick or a garbo. Your 'profession' doesn't have to be noble in order for it to be valuable.

I'm not asking for sex workers to be treated with respect BECAUSE of their occupation - I'm asking for them to be treated with respect DESPITE their occupation. I wouldn't look down on you because you paid for sex - you shouldn't look down on me because I offered it.

Dickhead

10-20-04, 16:04

I'm sorry; did you say "look down" or "lick down"? I get those two confused.

Tea Boy

10-21-04, 05:08

RN,

I am afraid that if sex workers regard what they are doing as merely a job they are not going to get a lot of respect. This has already happened in professions like Medicine when doctors have become mere technicians.

Those engaging in a sex act, whether as provider or as customer, can never be emotionally neutral about it. In my experience as a monger the woman always either loves what she is doing or she hates it, although there are obviously degrees of love and hate. If I have been with someone who hates what she is doing I feel degraded during and after the session, feeling that I have done something immoral. Fortunately, in the two countries that I have mongered in there are a small number of women who love what they are doing. If you read the posts of Murilloa in the London and Lisbon sections you will see that this has been his experience too. It's not just me being a hopeless romantic - I came across a description of a girl named Kim2 in Amsterdam as " a healer of men". These lovely women make the world a better place to live in.

While the transfer of money is an essential part of the interaction, the sex worker who gets the most respect is the one who is not</> doing it just for money. Although no woman is going to expose herself to the risk of disease etc. without adequate recompense, the sexual act could still be a mutually rewarding one.

My thanks to Jackson for making this forum available to us, and I hope that it will help weed out those sex workers whose heart is not in what they do.

Tea Boy

Sporadic

10-21-04, 16:32

Tea Boy
I am afraid that if sex workers regard what they are doing as merely a job they are not going to get a lot of respect. This has already happened in professions like Medicine when doctors have become mere technicians. I think your analogy here may be a little anachronistic. The diefication (or damnification) of certain professions has always been a crutch. Clergymen, even repairmen are seen by some as performing "magic."

I would not want to offend anyone in any profession but it seems childish to paint people as one-dimensional objects. Mary and Bob are not a Doctor and a Lawyer, they are Mary and Bob, who may hold those credentials and practice that profession, but they continue to be just plain old human beings.

You do not need to be Mother Theresa to be a nun.

I have no doubt that persons exist in this world who are the proverbial square peg in the square hole, but I suggest that the vast majority cannot be so easily and neatly classified.

Just my .02

Cheers,

Sporadic

Joe Zop

10-22-04, 06:03

Well said, Sporadic. And I must say that I while I agree with Tea Boy that some sort of emotional aspect must be involved in the sex act, simply because of the endorphins that get released, that's very different from some sort of true or important emotion being involved. Yes, someone may see someone as a "healer of men" and another may see her as simply a "sperm receptacle" but that doesn't mean it's necessary to feel either way, or for the sex worker to have some sort of emotional quotient either. I don't buy the whole idea of a "necessary" emotional quotient, positive or negative with the sex act -- at least not going any further than endorphins or speaking about the kind of emotional aspect that's involved in liking or not liking to do anything else. Sometimes people are just getting off or getting someone else off.

And personally, I think most sex workers would be thrilled to be given as "little" respect as doctors, and to be marginialized in such a way.

Tea Boy, if you've not had a relationship where DATY was an integral part, is that due to the lack of relationships or because the women you were involved with weren't into it? I've met a couple of the latter, but they are generally pretty quick converts... :)

Tea Boy

10-22-04, 06:07

Sporadic,

Thanks for your response. I agree that my analogy with Medicine is controversial, but if I went into further discussion of that we would be going off topic. Are you saying that prostitution is simply a job? From the point of view of the customer, is his interaction with a prostitute merely a convenient way to discharge semen, or is it something more than that?

Best Regards,

Tea Boy

Tea Boy

10-22-04, 06:36

Joe Zop,

Thanks for your response. I'll start by answering your specific question. The answer is that it is the "lack of relationships" which is the main reason for my not being able to indulge in DATY outside of prostitution. Using a term which has been discussed in this forum a couple of years ago, I would say that I am differently attractive due to the lack of self-confidence. I have been in two "normal" sexual relationships. The first was a passionate one, but the woman declined DATY because she felt she was dirty down there. That ended after six months. The second was a much longer-term relationship but the woman's sexual interest in me was always of a very low intensity.

Regarding your other point about the emotional aspect of sex, it appears that I have been guilty of over-generalizing from my personal experience. I can see that there must many men who have satisfactory and perfectly morally acceptable encounters with prostitutes with very little emotion being involved, and conversely the women who cater to these men would not need to bring too much emotion either positive or negative into the act.

Tea Boy

Sporadic

10-22-04, 09:01

Joe Zop
some sort of emotional aspect must be involved in the sex act, simply because of the endorphins that get released, that's very different from some sort of true or important emotion being involved.Your are hitting eerily close to home on this one, Joe.

While I think most of us understand the physiological bonding response to orgasm, there is also a risk (?) of more emotional attachment. I recently met a young lady who, it seems, owing to her unique circumstances has decided that she has feelings for me that go beyond the professional relationship.

I am not talking about a possible warm feeling or simple fondness here, and frankly I feel a very deep sense of responsibility. I have sought out advice from some people I trust and I think I know how to handle this situation, but having said that, it was a truly unexpected turn of events.

This lady is neither a "healer of men", nor a barracuda, just human. Certainly she deserves my respect as a human being, regardless of her profession. Everyone puts on their "game face" on the job, but human reactions can not simply be turned off. Ask any Paediatric Oncologist.

I will grant you that this whole issue is seriously complicated because of the circumstances under which we met, but I personally do not think payment absolves me of any and all responsibility towards this person.

It is ironic as one of the reasons I avail myself of professional services is to avoid relationship issues and consequent emotional betrayal of my S.O.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Joe Zop

10-22-04, 14:45

I agree that payment doesn't absolve one of responsibility -- the fact that you paid a fair price certainly doesn't absolve you in the case where you know there's coercion involved, for example, in having a sex worker service you. And I agree absolutely that such things are complicated because of physiological bonding in an instance where a sex worker sees you as something other than a particular client, since, among other things, the level of truth involved in such a situation is tough to measure.

To me it comes down to this -- if the woman was someone who you'd had a fair amount of contact with and who worked in a shop or was a waitress, receptionist, etc., would you have a clear set of emotional reactions and/or sense of your willingness to get entangled? The same considerations should apply here, though because of all our programming it's obviously tougher to separate things.

And, of course, irony is no help against anything other than an improper sense of ruefulness. :)

Sporadic

10-22-04, 15:12

Joe Zop,

I understand what you are saying about "responsibilities" towards a lady in any other profession (shop attendant or secretary etc.) and I do not want to seem either very casual or overly harsh about this thing, but at least for me, I find it more difficult in an intimate (though professional) situation.

This has not happened to me in at least 15 years (at least that I am aware of, I was young and dashing once) and really took me by surprise. I am not sure, at this juncture if I can treat it just like a star-struck secretary (yes, that has happened before, but easily resolved, and of course, we were never intimate.)
would you have a clear set of emotional reactions and/or sense of your willingness to get entangled?I possibly did not make myself clear here. I have no doubt about my feelings, no entanglements for me, thank you very much. My concern was with these unilateral emotions on the part of the provider. Few people get their kicks pulling the wings off of butterflies (I hope.)

of course, irony is no help against anything other than an improper sense of ruefulness.Come on Mr. Z, you have been reliably reported as a nice guy. It is not nice to taunt poor helpless mongers like me. ;)

Cheers,

Sporadic

Tea Boy

10-22-04, 15:15

Sporadic,

My replies are of course delayed because of vetting by the Administrator. Your last post proves that I was very far off the mark when I asked whether "an encounter with a prostitute was merely a convenient method of discharging semen". Sorry about that, but perhaps you will understand that I was trying to enliven the discussion by putting forward an extreme viewpoint. Your feeling responsible for the young lady clearly shows that the prostitute/client encounter, especially if there have been several sessions between the same pair, is often charged with deep emotion. I for one am pretty sure that this is not all due to endorphins.

I don't know what S.O. stands for, but I would entirely agree with you that in 99% of cases our relationship with our lovely working ladies should be kept strictly within professional boundaries to minimize the risk of hurt on either side.

It is also very evident to me that the young lady you mention was not merely "doing a job", and probably loves her work, especially when it involves a caring individual like yourself!

Tea Boy

Rubber Nursey

10-22-04, 15:59

Tea Boy,

You're preaching to the converted here, sweetheart. :) I don't really want to disagree with you, because I share your belief that a 'good' hooker puts her heart and soul into her job and treats it like a profession, rather than a means to an end. However, I have to comment on one thing you said:

"I am afraid that if sex workers regard what they are doing as merely a job they are not going to get a lot of respect".

A job is just a job. Some people are passionate and motivated and throw their whole selves into making that job the best it can be. Some people despise their jobs and spend every working day wishing they were somewhere else. And others are in the middle and just do their jobs with neither passion nor complaint, in order to make a living. Sex workers are no different to any other workers in that respect.

There are always going to be sex workers who hate what they're doing and are only in it for the money, just like there are obnoxious sales girls in clothing stores or angry teens in fast food joints or doctors who roll their eyes when you start telling them your ailments. They may be doing their job BADLY, but they're still just doing a job. Do they deserve less respect as professionals in their fields? Yes. But do they deserve less respect as human beings?

Tea Boy

10-22-04, 17:28

RN,

Thanks for your message, sweetheart! Of course all human beings deserve respect. I think if a sex worker hates her job she deserves compassion as well as respect.

However, what I am puzzled about is why your reluctance to regard sex work as a profession. So I looked up the definition of a profession in Merriam-Webster: "A calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation". It is obvious that the bit about academic preparation does not apply to sex work, but I think the first part does.

The other important feature of a profession which does not appear in the dictionary definition is that most professions have a trade body or organization which tries to maintain minimum standards of service. In occupations such as the building trade in some countries which do not maintain acceptable standards, these workers lose respect and are referred to as "cowboy builders". Not that being a cowgirl sex worker is necessarily a term of derision. But seriously, if sex work were to be legalized, the establishment of such a trade body would help a lot in making it a respected occupation.

Tea Boy

PsyberZombie

10-23-04, 00:35

What are the Principle Exports of Canada ??

"Cold air fronts , Hockey , and Annoying Singers" , according to Danae , a comic strip character in the syndicated Strip "NON SEQUITOR"

[ http://www.ucomics.com/nonsequitur/2004/10/20/ ]

And of All the Annoying Singers from Canada , AVRIL SEVIGNE tops the List

She's got this one 'Hit' Song from her latest Album that is played *Incessantly* on the Radio here called =

" MY HAPPY ENDING "

The last two lines of the chorus of this Song go =

" All this time you were pretending
... So much for my Happy Ending !! "

While deliciously Ironic that a *Female* would be complaining about her Lack of a Happy Ending ,
do you think Avril has Any Idea what the expression 'Happy Ending' means to us Mongers ??

I kinda doubt it =

This was the chick who introduced David Bowie at the MTV Music Awards Ceremony as "David Bauwie"

... she later admitted that she mis·pronounced his name because she had *never heard of him* !!!

She's Cute , but Dumber than a Box of Rocks

... Just the way we like 'em , am I right , Gentlemen ??

Daddy Rulz

10-23-04, 05:03

RN, Joe, Sporadic and Tea Boy.

Interesting conversation. Personally I feel if I'm paying for service I have no responsibility after. Without rancor, I think that if a provider knew that I was emotionally involved but not a danger I don't think She would hesitate to use that for repeat business.

I'm an attractive man, intelligent, have a decent job and am a pretty funny guy. Meeting women has never been a problem for me. One of the things I love most about mongering is that I can do it on MY terms. I have no shame about my activity, I also have no S.O. nor do I really desire one. (RN being the exception of course, I have a huge crush on Her)

If both me and the provider developed feelings for each other Her profession/occupation/trade/whatever we want to call it would not be a bar to a relationship for me. If only She was involved I would probably seek a graceful way out. I pay women to avoid just this very problem. I enjoy sex, I really enjoy sex with young attractive women, and I really, really enjoy sex with a lot of different young attractive women. Like Charlie Sheen said "Your Honor you don't pay them for "sex" I pay them to leave" personally I think of it as I pay them so I can leave. Now if I found a Woman that wanted to have sex with a lot of different attractive young women with me I would react differently I think.

I think among us having this conversation we can all agree that regardless of what "job" you do you can bring dignity to it by your willingness to do it well. Is sex with a provider better when you care and respect each other, yes for those that enjoy care and respect. Some guys are doing it for the opposite reason I think. And others I think just want a semen receptacle without prejudice. I kind of feel sorry for them I think they miss a lot of what the experience can be.

Joe Zop

10-23-04, 06:21

My concern was with these unilateral emotions on the part of the provider. Few people get their kicks pulling the wings off of butterflies (I hope.)

Ah, I understand, my mistake. Well, one certainly always does bear responsibility in those cases, regardless of circumstance. At the very least you must make clear as sincerely as possible that you are both extremely flattered and completely full of regret at the impossibility of the situation. Anyone who would not do so is precisely one of those torturers you describe -- the fact that we're here talking about tracking down sex doesn't mean we abrogate our responsibilities as gentlemen.

By very, very strange coincidence, on a run back to my hometown earlier this evening, I ran into just such a person who I'd not seen in years -- not a sex worker, but someone who at one time worked as a dancer and confessed having a crush on me and a desire to explore it. I must say I'm lucky to have handled things well in the past, because she's now someone who has become peripherally attached to my old social circle. You just never know what twists will come, and that's certainly not one I'd anticipated! If I'd have been a jerk I'm sure some version or other of it would have managed to come back to bite me.

Come on Mr. Z, you have been reliably reported as a nice guy. It is not nice to taunt poor helpless mongers like me. ;)

Rest assured, that shot first needed to pass repeatedly through me, since it was far more a comment on my own failings (being the irony-a-holic I am) than a taunt in your direction...:)

Tea Boy

10-23-04, 15:08

As the socio-economic aspect of prostitution is relevant to its morality I would like to share some information about a girl I have been seeing. (Although she is 32-34 years old, she is happy for me to refer to her as a girl) We both live in a Third World country, she was widowed about 6 years ago, and she has to support a 9-year-old daughter. She worked as a prostitute upto a year ago, then took a break and returned to her village where she owns a tiny farm growing rice and vegetables. She earns just about enough to feed the two of them.

They live in a partly-built house and now she has returned to prostitution to earn some money so that she can complete the building. There is no electricity in the house at moment, and the first step she is taking is install the wiring and some light fittings. Then she will need to buy some furniture. She sees five clients a day on average, getting about $ 6 from each after the brothel has taken its share. So if anyone thinks that what she is doing is immoral (obviously not a member of this forum), perhaps they would like to donate $1000 so that she can give up her sinful life.

Rubber Nursey

10-24-04, 15:42

Tea Boy,

It was Joe and DH who made the comments about the word 'profession' not really applying to prostitution. I have to, reluctantly, agree with them.

I think ultimately, sex work itself is just a job - physical labour in exchange for a pay cheque. In essence, the job description of a sex worker is simply to provide sexual stimulation and/or gratification and having sex is something anyone can do, without the need for training or studying or research. A street worker doing 20 dollar blowjobs in an alley, is essentially doing the exact same job as a 300 dollar an hour escort.

However, that doesn't mean you can't TREAT it like a profession. I've said many times on this forum that I believed sex work was my 'calling' and that I strived to be more like the courtesans of old, rather than just your every day working girl. I put a hell of a lot of time and effort into my 'training' and education, in order to be good at what I was doing.

But that's just me - it's the sort of worker I wanted to be, for the sort of clients I wanted to attract. Many men out there don't WANT a 'professional' hooker. They might like the danger of picking up girls on the street, or the power trip of dominating an 18 year old heroin addict, or simply relieving themselves of their sexual frustration into one of Z's 'sperm receptacles' who couldn't care less.

So as much as I agree with you in theory (and, by the way, appreciate very much the beautiful things you've said about sex workers) I'm forced to admit that sex work itself is really just unskilled labour. But that doesn't mean some of us can't treat it like a profession.

Sporadic

10-24-04, 16:28

Tea Boy
So I looked up the definition of a profession in Merriam-Webster: "A calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation". It is obvious that the bit about academic preparation does not apply to sex workYou and I obviously did not attend the same University ;) Field work in ethanol tolerance and sex work (well, it was not really work) were required and encouraged.

Actually, IMHO any "job" can be a profession, it just depends upon how well you do it. "Professional" Waiters, "Professional" Butlers and "Professional Nannies" certainly qualify. It really depends upon how you view your work, as RN pointed out.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Tea Boy

10-24-04, 17:56

RN,

Thanks for your appreciation. I wish I had met you in the days before your retirement!

When you wrote: "Many men out there don't WANT a 'professional' hooker", that really seems to me to be irrelevant to our discussion. It is up to a profession to decide what it wants to provide its clients. For instance, the legal profession operates on the principal that its members operate within the laws of the land, seeking to uphold those laws. There are plenty of criminals out there who would like to use the skills of a lawyer to help them with their illegal activities, and some lawyers will oblige them with the legal equivalent of a blow job in a dark corner, but if they get caught doing it they will be removed from the profession.

But perhaps we are at cross purposes because I haven't understood where you are coming from. Is it the case that you are a member of the Collective of Sex Workers or something like that in your country, and you wish your Collective to represent ALL sex workers? I can certainly see the need for such an organization.

Maybe we should try to move the discussion on to something like, "Can sex work be more than a job?", "Are sex workers providing a useful service to society?", "If sex work carries the risk of psychological damage to both workers and clients, can anything be done to minimize the risk?"

Best regards,

Tea Boy

Joe Zop

10-25-04, 02:47

Well, I think one can be a "professional" without being in a "profession." Similarly, one can certainly be in a profession without being a professional. The Merriam-Webster definition isn't the only one -- American Heritage, for example, has "An occupation or career" as an additional definition.

I've always rather liked the distinction someone once made about what makes something a profession: having clients instead of customers. That's wonderful in the context of this discussion, I think, because it clears up absolutely nothing! :D

Perhaps we could just acknowledge that prostitution has indeed been long referred to as "the oldest profession" and agree that phrase has such common usage that the waters have become considerably muddied.

Tea Boy

10-25-04, 02:47

Sporadic,

The girls at our University got two certificates when they finished - The Degree + a Certificate of Virginity. I was told, unofficially, that a few of them passed their 'O' Levels as well.

Do you do it well? In that case you are a Professional Monger.

Tea Boy

Dickhead

10-25-04, 03:42

Psyber Zombie posted:

"She's Cute , but Dumber than a Box of Rocks

... Just the way we like 'em , am I right , Gentlemen ??"

Ummm, no, actually.

Travis Bickle 2

10-25-04, 05:30

My experience has been the smarter the girl the better she is in bed.

Sporadic

10-25-04, 07:14

Civ2000:
My experience has been the smarter the girl the better she is in bed.I have never noticed a direct correlation.

Some women who just ooze sexuality are rather dull in bed, somehow thinking that presence is sufficient. Others, who do not have the "bedroom eyes" or any particular outward trait ended up shaking my world.

Who knows? One thing I will say with absolute certainty, stupidity is not sexy.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Rubber Nursey

10-25-04, 07:47

One thing I will say with absolute certainty, stupidity is not sexy.

Amen to that!

BK Big Fish

10-25-04, 19:46

I thought this might be relevant to the topic at hand.

I don't know many guys, old or young, who are morally against prostitution. They're about as against it as they are against cocaine or gambling -- maybe I'm not into it personally, but I can't hold it against someone unless their obsessed with it, it's good in moderation, I hope no one in my family gets too involved, but otherwise, live and let live.

And yet, in virtually every country in the world, prostitution is illegal (although enforcement varies). Why?

I think it's the women. Women know they are competing with prostitutes. And it's not just about sex. If the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, then the way to a man's wallet is through sex. If the sex is cheap, then the wallet stays closed. And who needs marriage if inexpensive prostitutes are also willing to give you the hallowed GFE?

We are trained to believe that prostitution is immoral because women, and through them the mass of society who doesn't really think or care about it one way or another, don't want the competition. Sure, we can talk about all the moral arguments for and against prostitution, but I'm saying that moral arguments are just a smokescreen for the real reason society teaches us prostitution is illegal: It makes women work harder.

What do you think?

Sporadic

10-26-04, 08:14

Tea Boy:
Do you do it well? In that case you are a Professional Monger.Do it well? At least I think so. ;)
About being a pro, I am still searching for that elusive research grant that would allow me to monger on a professional basis. Failing that, I will continue as a hobbyist.

Cheers,

Sporadic

My Alias

10-27-04, 07:26

Did everyone read this article in the San Diego paper about the evolution of the sex trade? The link, http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041018/news_lz1n18adult.html

Sporadic

10-27-04, 08:58

BK Big Fish:
And who needs marriage if inexpensive prostitutes are also willing to give you the hallowed GFE? I think I understand what you are saying, but personally the "who need’s marriage?" premise is just a tad too simple.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I did not choose my spouse on the basis of the sexual availability of providers. I doubt any decent LTR could be based upon such a foundation.

I sense that you are a little ticked off at the fairer sex, if not openly misogynistic. My belief is that many people, who in polite company would deride the sex trade, actually participate on the side. There is no sex work without customers.

What "society" says and what society does are two very different things. I do not buy the worldwide female conspiracy theory.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Cash Works

10-27-04, 14:42

I have to agree somewhat with BK Big Fish. I think married women & women who want to get married, play a big part in having laws passed to make prostitution illegal, but I don't think the institution of marriage would disappear if prostitution were legal - there are plenty of men out there who are offended by paying directly for sex & ultimately prefer paying more by being in a marriage with one woman. Even if our culture appreciated prostitutes, I believe you would find some men and women pairing up and getting married.

Married women, at least in America, have historically banded together (along with the clergy) to get laws passed that helped to keep their husbands at home. In the late 19th & early 20th centuries, the entire "temperance" movement was spearheaded by women (mostly disgruntled married women who were upset by their husbands staggering home from a night on the town & smelling like whiskey & women) this culminated in Prohibition, where the sale & consumption of alcoholic beverages of all types was made illegal in the USA. One side effect of Prohibition was the increased profits for organized crime (Al Capone, et al). There were others who profited, JFK's family for instance, made a bundle running rum & other spirits up from the carribean before he was born - they obviously never got busted for their (then) illegal activities.

While Prohibition, on paper, seems to be all about stopping the consumption of alcoholic beverages, I believe it was mostly about stopping Prostitution. Prostitution, historically has gone hand in hand with drinking - anyone for a little drunken debauchery? To this day, most of the prostitutes around the world can be found in or near bars.

I think the idea behind the temperance movement was basically "men go to bars to get drunk, once they get drunk, they are easily seduced by the prostitutes who are there, if we stop the sale of booze, then men won't use the services of prostitutes because they'll be sober. Since the men won't be drunk, prostitutes won't have any clients, so they'll find more suitable work."

I personally think there's a major flaw in that logic - I've never had to be drunk in order to have sex with a prostitute. I beleive these Victorian era women were a bit naive to think that the booze was the main reason their husbands went out - my personal opinion is that they went out to get a little strange & had a few drinks while they were making their selection.

CW

Travis Bickle 2

10-27-04, 18:31

BK Big Fish, I think perhaps you are wrong. I believe that even if women were not allowed to vote that an initiative legalizing prostitution would easily be defeated in the U.S. First you have the religious right which believes anything sexual is immoral and wrong, and they seem to be the 48% or so that will be voting for Bush. Next you have the liberals who believe that prostitution or lap dancing is demeaning and victimizing to females and they are "victims" who need to be protected. Heck, here in Seattle, it seems most people I talk to support the cops going into strip clubs and busting dancers for touching during lap dances. Ridiculous.

Also, I'm not sure who you hang out with but nearly everyone I know is vehemently opposed to cocaine. If they feel about prostitution the same way they do about cocaine then it would lose by 90% or more.

I don't think legalized prostitution would have much effect on marriage. Even though prostitution is illegal, there is still plently of easily available SW's, escorts, AMP's, etc where a guy can get all the spare nookie he can handle. Guys get married because they want companionship and all kinds of other things. Even if a hooker always gives you a GFE, you still know that she's just faking it. Most guys I know (at least the marrying type) want the real deal.

Also, I hear a lot on this and the American women thread about how men are just pre-programmed to not be monogomous and how it's just natural to cheat on your spouse. I disagree. I think that's an insult to the 50% or more of guys and gals (100's of millions) who are able to remain faithful to their mates. I do realize it provides an easy excuse or cop out for cheating. Very simple: if you want to sleep with hookers: don't get married. Sure I was tempted when I was married and every gal on two legs looked good, but I took my vows seriously. How many of us guys would think it was okay for our wifes to be giving strangers bbbj just because she said it was not natural for her to be faithful to us? We'd kick her to the curb faster than she could say gigalo.

Just my two cents worth.

Civ2000

Sporadic

10-27-04, 19:46

Cash works:
I think married women & women who want to get married, play a big part in having laws passed to make prostitution illegal Come on, CW, women did not even have the right to vote until rather recent history, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Civ2000:
I think that's an insult to the 50% or more of guys and gals (100's of millions) who are able to remain faithful to their mates. I do realize it provides an easy excuse or cop out for cheating. Very simple: if you want to sleep with hookers: don't get married. Sure I was tempted when I was married and every gal on two legs looked good, but I took my vows seriously.Sorry Civ2000, while I appreciate your moral stand on "taking your vows seriously" I think that your position is a little bit Utopian. If you think that the contrary position is offensive to 50% of the population, then obviously, your position is offensive to the other 50%.

If you were honestly "tempted when I was married and every gal on two legs looked good" then you are pulling a Jimmy Carter (adultery in my heart.) There is no real distinction here in a purely moral sense IMHO.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Travis Bickle 2

10-28-04, 00:02

Sporadic, You said: " If you think that the contrary position is offensive to 50% of the population, then obviously, your position is offensive to the other 50%."

I'm not sure that's completely true. I'm just tired of hearing guys say that cheating is analagous to being male and I just don't believe that is true. I tend to believe that even in the percentage of the male population that does have sex outside their marriage most feel some if not a lot of guilt over their activity. Unless they are sexually addicted, I believe they have a choice whether or not they have sex with hookers, and even then they can stop if they desire. To say that polygamy is natural to the male of the species is not true. IMHO, of course.

Jimmy Carter was a self described born-again Christian who believed in a literal translation of the bible. To paraphrase that passage it says: one who lusts after a woman with his eyes is guilty of adultery. I don't think I'd agree, otherwise we'd be in a heap of trouble. In a society such as that it would be just as illegal to want to rob a bank as it would be to actually rob that bank. Fortunately thoughts (even the most immoral ones) aren't yet illegal. I do realize you were talking about in a strict moral sense however, and do recognize you make the distinction.

And I think my last question could pose an interesting discussion for this board. If polygamy were the norm for married females, how would you guys feel about your wife or girlfriend going out and giving male sex workers bbbj, etc, without your knowledge or consent? Would it be okay,because that's just the way women are or would it bother you?

I'm not asking this because I'm some kind of ultra-moral guy. I've been called a hypocrite and probably am one. I've had sex with hookers while being involved in a steady relationship and I was okay with it. Yet if she did the same thing -- I'd be furious. Anybody else here as fucked up as I am?

Civ2000

Joe Zop

10-28-04, 02:01

Cash Works, while it's true that married women did band together and were one of the important voices of the temperance movement, your description vastly oversimplifies things. This was not simply women against men having fun.

Keep in mind that the temperance movement really gained because it was a campaign against saloons, (the Anti-Saloon League was the one that originally announced the drive for a constitutional amendment) which proliferated so much that in many places there was one saloon for every hundred or so people, regardless of whether those people drank or not, and lots of them were pretty dismal places. It was not simply women who were against such places, as there were plenty of issues around kids getting caught up in the life, a lot of control of workers via drink and debt, (not only the company store but the company saloon existed) etc. Regulation was basically non-existent, and the brewing industry was unbelieveably aggressive, as it basically overbuilt and was desperately trying to move more and more product to survive. Most saloons were controlled by breweries, and because profits were hard to come by the most successful saloons were the ones that had gambling, cock fighting, prostitution, drugs, etc. This also fed into lots of robbery and violence, which was another argument against them. A lot of the drive against them was about that oversaturation and how that affected the overall growth and stability of a community. Families are what generally make a community stable, as opposed to big communities of working men who are essentially rootless and will move to another place if there is better work there. So the development and flourishing of stable cities was part of the overall goal, and that was driven as much by politicians and businessmen as it was women. Keep in mind that the country had just spent the past half-century not only in a civil war but in a mad expansionist dash westward, which saw people packing up and leaving for new places regularly, town growing quickly and then becoming ghosts, and abandoned or orphaned kids who were rounded up and sent on trains to the praries by the boxcar.

The overly religious nature of Americans also played a big part, of course, and that's hardly restricted to women. Good old John Wesley started yipping about prohibition before the American revolution. Heck, Plymouth Colony (not exactly noted for its inclusion of the desires of women into the mix) banned to sale of spirits other than a small amount to arriving strangers, the Colony of Georgia banned the sale of liquor back in the 1700, and ten states passed prohibition statutes starting in the 1840! But the whole movement was truly about a big-time longing for community stability after a long period of upheaval, expansion and wars.

Prostitution was a side issue to this, not a main one. It was already on the "bad" list.

Sporadic

10-28-04, 07:03

I'm just tired of hearing guys say that cheating is analagous to being male and I just don't believe that is true.I agree with you, in fact many people think sociologists just peddle balloon juice and snake oil anyhow. Obviously, free will is germane here as well.
To say that polygamy is natural to the male of the species is not true. IMHO, of course. Did I miss something here? When did polygamy join us at the table?

how would you guys feel about your wife or girlfriend going out and giving male sex workers bbbj, etc, without your knowledge or consent? Well, I can think of alternative activities I would prefer for my wife... but I am just a little uncomfortable with your use of the word "consent" in this context as if a wife is nothing more than another posession. If I have misunderstood you, Civ2K, I apologize.

I've been called a hypocrite and probably am one. I've had sex with hookers while being involved in a steady relationship and I was okay with it. Yet if she did the same thing -- I'd be furious. Anybody else here as fucked up as I am? Take it easy on yourself there... welcome to the human race.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Always Lookin

10-28-04, 11:10

What's good for the Goose is NOT always good for the Gander!

Sporatic's comment was excellant, as well as much more tactful than mine.

AL

Cash Works

10-28-04, 14:47

Sporadic,

I originally included a comment about women not even having the vote at the time the temperance movement was really going, but it was poorly written and sounded awkward, so I deleted it. It's true they didn't have the vote, but they still had quite a bit of influence via clergy, husbands, sons & brothers who they could shame into doing their bidding, or in this case, their voting. I'm pretty sure that the temperance movement and the sufferage movement were extremely intertwined.

As for Prohibition, I don't recall exactly when women were granted the right to vote, but I'm pretty sure it was shortly before Prohibition was passed. Something that I don't think would have happenned with an only male vote.

Joe Zop,

I have to admit to oversimplifying things. It's one of my talents. Makes it easier to explain the "big picture" in a complex situation.

Your description of saloons per capita & brewery control of saloons sounds like modern London, England. They seem to be doing just fine, though most American companies (my former employer included) get a bit upset with the "pub on premises" concept. We were located in outer London, near Heathrow Airport, had a "social club" on the property, which didn't serve any alcohol until 5:30 pm, but there were 3 pubs within "spitting distance" where many of the employees would go for lunch (including at least one pint of beer & sometimes 2 or 3 pints). The "powers that were", sitting in the home office in Houston were constantly trying to get the social club shut down, but it was protected by the original land grant/land lease or something in British law. They tried to enforce a "no drinking at lunch" policy, but were again thwarted by British law and/or custom.

If my memory serves me correctly, prostitution is NOT illegal in the U.K., Brothels and Pimping, however are illegal. Maybe you can draw some parallels between Victorian era USA and modern England? I haven't been to London in a couple of years, but last time I was there, I didn't hear anything about a temperance movement, the women had the right to vote and no, they haven't recently undergone a huge expansion or decades of war. But there are certainly A LOT of pubs all over the UK - Aberdeen, Scotland has a pub on nearly every corner. Prostitution in the UK, does, however leave something to be desired from a mongers point of view - it's available and, as mentioned earlier, I don't think it's illegal, but you still have to go looking.

I agree that the clergy played a big part in temperance & anti-prostitution, I actually mentioned it in my post. But I believe that women were the driving force behind the preachers & as you mentioned, businessmen, pontificating agianst drinking & cavorting.

CW

Joe Zop

10-28-04, 15:31

Your underlying point, Civ2000, that the idea that men are not wired to be monogamous is an really excuse for misbehavior, is a good one, I think. Yes, men are rather hypocritical about that -- they're getting a little on the side if they're cheating, but they're wearing goat horns and being cuckholded if their wife is doing the same. A double-standard for men as opposed to women? Especially when it comes to sex? That should be no surprise -- it's hardly the first or only one.

A vast majority of those in prison have learning disabilities, but we don't accept the idea that because they're wired in a certain way it's a valid excuse for criminal behavior. A factor, perhaps, but it doesn't give them a pass, as we still expect them to behave within the rules of society. So even if it's true that humans are genetically not programmed toward monogamy it doesn't say men are incapable of living within marital norms. Some choose to, some do not.

Carter was ridiculed for his statement about being unable to control his thoughts, which truly was a rather monastic point of view that's far from specific to his religion, but the real issue of control isn't about your thoughts but your behavior. There's a big difference between angrily wishing someone were dead and actually making it so. Fantasy and reality are two different things, as are lust and actually having sex.

PsyberZombie

10-28-04, 23:27

Because Men like VARIETY

... and the Easiest Way to get Variety is to pay for it

Sporadic

10-29-04, 08:55

Cash Works:
It's true they didn't have the vote, but they still had quite a bit of influence via clergy, husbands, sons & brothers who they could shame into doing their bidding, or in this case, their voting.This is a quote from a Texas Clergyman, circa 1911...
"The leaders of the Suffragette movement, as a rule, are divorced women, women who prefer pug dogs to children, and supernumerary spinsters, bankrupt in sentiment and possessors of worthless assets of faded charm, who, failing to capture a man, propose to remedy this misfortune by turning [into] men themselves."

It is interesting how many of those attitudes still persist in society. It sort of sounds like something from the "American Women" thread ;)

As for Prohibition, I don't recall exactly when women were granted the right to vote, but I'm pretty sure it was shortly before Prohibition was passed. Something that I don't think would have happenned with an only male vote. Prohibition dates back to the colonial days, a century before suffrage was taken even reasonably seriously by most states. Indeed by the time federal laws were passed granting "universal" suffrage 31 states had already enacted such legislation. The UK granted universal suffrage in 1928. In the US, universal suffrage was not firmly established until the Voting Rights Act in 1965.

As for the rest of the world, Spain only reinstated suffrage in 1976 (post Franco) and in Switzerland, 1971.

I still do not buy into the worldwide female conspiracy theory. Equal rights? Come on now, men still control government, media, banking, industry, wealth and education worldwide.

I am also failing to see the relevance to the morality of prostitution here, it could be just me though. ;) Morality, by definition is an intensely personal thing, it is up to you to decide exactly who can foist their version upon your thinking.

Cheers,

Sporadic

PsyberZombie

10-29-04, 11:09

On Exotic Dancers , in Las Vegas at least =

" You can throw out the stereotype of the stripper as a bubble-headed blonde taking the easy route to a quick buck in support of a drug habit. Oh , there are a few of those. And there are probably too many who are the chief bread-winner behind a lazy boyfriend . But also employed in these clubs are many well-educated and well-bred women who tried the corporate world and got tired of bumping their heads against the glass ceiling, and decided to take their natural beauty (albeit with a few cosmetic enhancements thrown in) and knock down the big bucks for five or six years. An attractive and clearly focused exotic dancer in Las Vegas will make anywhere from $200,000 to $350,000 a year , not all of it reported to Uncle Sam. With good advice from money managers (and there are no shortage of those visiting her place of business) she can be financially set by the age of 35. The allure of nice clothes and private schools for her children can go a long way toward rationalizing a career swinging around a pole and whispering sweet nothings in a stranger's ear. And, hey, dancing is good for the heart and lungs as well (as long as too much smoke isn't inhaled). "

source = Joe Sheehan , SKIN CITY
[ See = the Las Vegas Board for more on this new Book ]

I'll save Joe Zop and RN the trouble of responding by posting it for them =

" We TOLD you so !!! "

Cash Works

10-29-04, 14:50

Prohibition dates back to the colonial days, a century before suffrage was taken even reasonably seriously by most states. Indeed by the time federal laws were passed granting "universal" suffrage 31 states had already enacted such legislation. The UK granted universal suffrage in 1928. In the US, universal suffrage was not firmly established until the Voting Rights Act in 1965.

I think you may be getting your American History from a different source than me. My recollections from my school day's placed womens right to vote in the early 1900's & Prohibition (Federally enacted, encompassing the entire, USA) in the 1920's. So, I just did an "ask jeeves" & got the following:

"American women have had the right to vote since 1920"
www.wic.org/misc/history.htm

"In 1920, the national policy of Prohibition began. The 18th Amendment to the Constitution had been officially ratified:

It sought, by law, to make the whole Nation into enforced teetotalers and to put an end to all evils associated with drinking. It sought to eradicate a taste deeply rooted in the habits and customs of a large part of the population through outlawing the business that ministered to its satisfaction"
www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/nc/nc2a.htm...

I thought there were a couple of years separating the two, but it looks like they happenned at the same time. Just coincidence that two movements spearheaded by women (who you seem to think had little influence) were passed at the same time? Admittedly, this was just a quick search, but my point has been that women had a lot of influence on what was happenning in the USA even though they didn't have the right to vote. I also believe, as I posted earlier, that one reason for Prohibition was an attempt to eradicate Prostitution by closing down the Prostitutes places of business - both backfired.

CW

Tea Boy

10-29-04, 16:03

If my memory serves me correctly, prostitution is NOT illegal in the U.K., Brothels and Pimping, however are illegal. I can understand why pimping is illegal, as I think it is immoral for an individual to make money out of a prostitute who is risking her body, but does anyone know the rationale for lawmakers to make brothels illegal? It seems to me that a prostitute is safer working in a brothel rather than on the street or in an apartment on her own. Perhaps the existence of brothels is disturbing to the minds of prudish people who find their imaginations running riot over what goes on in these houses of pleasure. Or it could be that the pressure groups behind the legislation would prefer that prostitutes get hurt in unsafe situations in the hope that this would act as a deterrent. If the latter is true, the people responsible for the legislation are the immoral ones.

Joe Zop

10-29-04, 16:10

LOL, deftly done, PsyberZombie.

Cash Works, I'd have to say that the London pubs I've been in are definitely nothing like those I've seen pictured from the period in discussion. And London has been a stable city for a very long time, with a huge tourism industry, so it's a lot different than, say, Chicago during the 1880s (see, for example, the wonderful "Devil in the White City" which gives a lot of detail about the area in the 1890s) or a lot of the other youngish American cities where saloons were springing up like dandelions.

England also doesn't take religion nearly as seriously as does the US, nor is its influence as strong.There is also a far different history of prostitution there -- some estimates said that during Victorian England there were up to 150,000 women engaged in either full or part-time prostitution in London alone. I also don't believe that US society has tended to make prostitutes (other than the recent example of Heidi Fleiss) into celebrities, and that's happened on a number of occassions in England, so there's simply a different history here, one I agree with Sporadic can't simply be laid at the feet of the women's movement. For one thing, the suffragette movement was every bit as active in England and elsewhere as it was in the US (the first ever "spy photographs" ever taken were survellience photos of suffragettes in England) and arguably more successful. Women had the vote in the Netherlands before they did in the US, and that didn't result in either prohibition or outlawing prostitution. I think one has to look elsewhere -- and religion is the prime place.

Sporadic

10-29-04, 19:08

Joe Zop:
I think one has to look elsewhere -- and religion is the prime place. Touchy subject, but IMHO BINGO.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Tea Boy

10-30-04, 02:05

Touchy subject, but IMHO BINGO.I don't think our quest for the forces behind the criminalization of prostitution can end with religion, because religion, as well as patriotism, can be the last refuge of a scoundrel. We have to look at the motivations of those who use religious arguments against prostitution.

Morality, by definition is an intensely personal thing, it is up to you to decide exactly who can foist their version upon your thinking.
I agree that in most matters morality OUGHT to be a personal thing, but the reality is that for many people morality involves following the herd. The extreme example of this is Nazi Germany where very few Germans felt they were doing anything immoral. In countries where there is heavy-handed policing of prostitution it is perceived that mongering is a minority activity and the usual prejudice against minorities comes into operation here, in contrast to countries such as Thailand and Brazil where probably the majority of men have indulged and are relatively open about what they do.

Cash Works

10-30-04, 16:58

JZ,

If you read my post, you should have noticed that I included the clergy (ministers, priests, etc.), but I still think that women play a large role in having laws passed to illegalize prostitution. During the Victorian era, when American women didn't have the right to vote, they could only get legislation passed by manipulating/influencing men (clergy included) into doing thier bidding.

CW

Gorilla69

10-31-04, 04:16

Not too often you see mainstream press taking on Protitution like this:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3151258

Ci-Traveler

11-02-04, 16:31

Not too often you see mainstream press taking on Protitution like this:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3151258

It's an interesting position for the media to take. I've read most of what you have all been writing about, and I have to admit that it is a complex issue when looking at it from many different perspectives. I tend to agree with the bottom line argument presented by the article:

"Which brings us back to that discreet transaction between two people in private. If there's no evidence that it harms others, then the state should let them get on with it. People should be allowed to buy and sell whatever they like, including their own bodies. Prostitution may be a grubby business, but it's not the government's."

It is unfortunate that prostitution is linked to crime and drugs - but so is politics and the seeking of political office and legalized forms of gambling.

In every profession there are abuses. Take the selling of alchohol for instance - it is allowed in stores, but you can't just stand on the street corner and sell it. Under controlled circumstances, the act of openly selling a consensual act is perfectly moral.

On the other hand - making oneself available subtely while walking from point A to point B might be difficult to prsecute if more controlled circumstances existed. Alas - they do not.

I tend to favor the arguments put forth by RN - it's a job. There is nothing wrong with the job itself.

ci-traveler

Rock Dog

11-14-04, 20:48

Prostitution takes on so many forms. It also occurs under such a wide variety of circumstances that one description can't cover it. You can't have one small set of laws to deal with it. This is like trying to have a "one-size-fits-all" solution to something that isn't even a problem for most of us.

I think the biggest problem is the perception of prostitution rather than the actual occupation itself. Most people don't have much familiarity with it. They only see (or hear about) the streetwalkers with drug addictions, pimps etc. Nobody wants to talk about the ones working at home or with an escort agency. Nobody wants to do a story on how they're ok with making thousands of dollars a week in (mostly) tax-free income. Nobody wants to do a report on that because it doesn't make a good story.

We as a society seem to like the idea that it's a hard and dirty way to try and survive. People feel safer thinking that all these girls have all kinds of problems, that they never find a way to get ahead. Why? Just imagine how the average working person (women in particular) would feel if they knew that there were a whole bunch of women out there making $100,000 a year by having sex for a few hours a week. The word jealousy comes to mind.

I make a pretty comfortable living myself and have learned not to go around telling people how much I make. I suspect this is the case with most of the more successful prostitutes. It would be interesting to know how many of them are out there.

Whatever. I think that what I do in the privacy of my bedroom is my own business. No place for the Gov't/Law Enforcement/Media.

Rock

Wicked SH

11-21-04, 01:39

I have to agree somewhat with BK Big Fish. I think married women & women who want to get married, play a big part in having laws passed to make prostitution illegal,
...
While Prohibition, on paper, seems to be all about stopping the consumption of alcoholic beverages, I believe it was mostly about stopping Prostitution. Prostitution, historically has gone hand in hand with drinking - anyone for a little drunken debauchery? To this day, most of the prostitutes around the world can be found in or near bars.

I think the idea behind the temperance movement was basically "men go to bars to get drunk, once they get drunk, they are easily seduced by the prostitutes who are there, if we stop the sale of booze, then men won't use the services of prostitutes because they'll be sober. Since the men won't be drunk, prostitutes won't have any clients, so they'll find more suitable work."

I personally think there's a major flaw in that logic - I've never had to be drunk in order to have sex with a prostitute. I beleive these Victorian era women were a bit naive to think that the booze was the main reason their husbands went out - my personal opinion is that they went out to get a little strange & had a few drinks while they were making their selection.

CWWell said. Prohibition was about stopping prositution more than drinking. I remember a history chanel program talking about this very point.

I also agree that religion played a role, but as a whole if women hadn't been given the right to vote prohibition would never have happened. Prositution would still be legal or like it is in other countries simply not prosecuted.

My Alias

11-26-04, 10:48

Nice to see Australia takes care of the horny old folks, http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11502543%5E13762,00.html

Cash Works

11-27-04, 02:23

I think they deserve a big round of applause!

Chick Luver

11-29-04, 10:03

Sorry, as I was not able to start the new thread, regarding female orgasm, I have to give it in the reply format. But I wud request Jackson to help me in starting a new thread. This is a very important subject as in most of the Forums, what I have seen is that, mongers just concentrate on their own pleasure, they never think of giving a great pleasure to the participating ladies. Even if they are WGs, but I feel that they have a right to have satisfaction and pleasure while fulfilling their need for earning money. People always talk about GFE but without fulfilling the desires of a Lady, is it of any worth, I have doubts about it.

Through I am not as experienced, as the other fellow mongers may be but,
I am trying to give our fellow mongers certain hints on how one can assess whether the Girl is enjoying with you or not.

AROUSAL
To make out whether she is properly turned on, see if she shows all the classic symptoms of arousal. First check her lips, they would have darkened. Blood rushes to her face initially and then as the pleasure travels down to the area between the legs, she will flush. You can make that out by physical changes like an increase in heart rate. That will of course make her breathe harder, or shallower; you can see her pupils dilate; her face will flush, since all her blood rushes to the genitals. She will not want any hard touching as the clitoris swells and becomes more sensitive. The vagina becomes swollen and the lips of the vagina swell, gradually becoming wet. Those are the Bartolin's glands making lubrication for the penis easy to slip in. With some amount of lubrication, or wetness, you can tell if a woman is really aroused or not. Some women have little secretion and some more, but if there is a notable lack of wetness, you know she is doing the moves with you.

PLATEAU
During the plateau phase, you can see sexual and muscular tension intensifying. The muscles become harder, she might start looking directly at you, ask for more hard pressure, more violent rubbing. She might push against you, want more physical play. She will nibble at you, let her hands roam over you, squeeze, pinch; want more physical contact with your skin in any form. She will get more demanding and slowly your pleasure will slip away from her gaze.

Women most likely remain in the plateau phase after orgasm longer than men do, which allows them the benefit of the ability to have a second or more orgasms very shortly after the first.

During orgasm, she will stop looking at you. Her eyes will glaze over or close. Her muscles will shudder, her legs will writhe, her legs will clutch together as she will ask for indirect stimulation of the clitoris. Her nipples will form buds. Sexual pleasure peaks and sexual tension is released. Her lips might scrunch up in a rictus, as she will make noises. Her hands might flail, her body will become stiff at the moment of pleasure, and her mouth will remain open.

RESOLUTION
The fourth stage is resolution, during which there is a gradual return of the body to its baseline state accompanied by a sense of warmth, pleasure, and relaxation. AND here is the major way to make out if a woman's faking it: a woman will not stand being touched after the orgasm. Her body is very sensitive and wants to relax. If she does not forcibly push you away, she's surely faking it.

Women most likely remain in the plateau phase after orgasm longer than men do, which allows them the benefit of the ability to have a second or more orgasms very shortly after the first. The multiple orgasms happen one after the other and after that the body becomes limp, cold, smattered with sweat. If she is not sweating, there is no change in the way her body temperature feels, you can start suspecting that she's maybe having you on.

The length of time a person 'remains' in each phase will vary from person to person, of course. Some people have personal preferences about how long they enjoy being in a particular phase. With time and experience, you'll be able to find what feels good for you alone or as a couple.

I hope if we really want to enjoy with GFE, while mongering around, we should take care of our partner girls and the pleasure of intimacy, that she will be having with you, would compel her to give you better discounts in your repeated encounters with her.

Dickhead

11-30-04, 02:48

If you are not sure whether she had an orgasm, she didn't.

Rock Dog

11-30-04, 04:18

What a good idea for a topic!

I've noticed differences in the way women act in bed. Personally, I think I can tell when a girl is faking an orgasm. It's actually kind of annoying when they do that. That reminds me of a pretty good joke that asks "why do women fake orgasms?" and the answer is "because they think we care".

Seriously, I much prefer a girl that just submits and lets me do my thing. Of course it's better if she really does get into it. The most arousing thing for me is a truly genuine reaction to what I'm doing. That may be the reason why some guys like anal. At least then, you know the moaning and groaning is for real.

My 2 cents for today.

Rock

Sporadic

11-30-04, 09:39

Chick Luver:
I hope if we really want to enjoy with GFE, while mongering around, we should take care of our partner girls and the pleasure of intimacy, Interesting comment from someone who posted, IMHO too many details about a Dubai MP recently.

I vote with DH, if you have to ask, it did not happen.

Cheers,

Sporadic

PsyberZombie

11-30-04, 12:15

hi , peeps !! let's go straight to the male sack =

dear dr. psyberzombie :

how can i tell if my hooker has had an orgasm ??

[signed] chick luver

dear cl :

who cares ??

Ci-Traveler

12-01-04, 23:40

hi , peeps !! let's go straight to the male sack =
dear dr. psyberzombie :
how can i tell if my hooker has had an orgasm ??
[signed] chick luver

dear cl :
who cares ??

once again, pz has proven that he is probably an **** kid abusing his parents' internet connection.

ci-traveler

PsyberZombie

12-02-04, 12:25

ci·traveler writes =

once again, pz has proven that he is probably an **** kid abusing his parents' internet connection

oh , yeah ????!!!!????

well , i bet my dad can beat up your dad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rubber Nursey

12-08-04, 04:25

Amen, DH ;)

My Alias

12-18-04, 06:04

Did anyone see this? In San Antonio, new regulations require strippers to wear their business license/permits while they dance. Here's the story link, http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Stripping%20Permits I noticed there's no topic for Strip Clubs, Jackson. How about starting one in the Special Interests section next to the Massages topic?

My Alias

12-18-04, 06:09

Speaking of trying to make things mutually enjoyable in a GFE session, on the rare times I've had the money to monger I've asked my partner to point out things that I could do for her, and if I'm not doing them right to guide me. I've only had one partner that really worked with me, most of the others wouldn't allow things like DATY or kissing, or they rushed you through it so fast you couldn't get her off if you tried. The last woman I saw, started showing me some things, then before I really had a chance to work on the skills she was rushing me to finish the session since she'd been late and she had another client scheduled to arrive. They have teaching pros in golf and tennis, how about for mongers?

Joe Zop

12-18-04, 06:35

If you're going to be doing either a teaching/learning or a serious exploring session then imho it's imperative that you schedule a reasonably long period of time so you can get into it.

I tend to break down my sessions into one of two categories -- either just needing to get off/wanting hard purposeful sex, or having an "encounter" where it's a more leisurely process of investigating the terrain. Both have their place, but while it's easy to make the former fill up a longer session, I find it's pretty hard to fit the latter into a brief time slot. Personally, I don't like to be rushed, and the overpowering sense that the clock's ticking is more likely to make it impossible for me to finish than almost anything else.

My Alias

12-18-04, 06:48

Joe Zop, on the session I mentioned, it was scheduled for two hours and she was 45 minutes late (I knew she was running late, but not that late before I arrived). She did extend the session to catch up on some of the missed time, but it was still a bit rushed at the end.

Joe Zop

12-19-04, 05:16

Guess that's one of the reasons I like mongering at times other places than in the US, as you can do an all-nighter sessions as a part of the package. But I do like your idea of "teaching pros" though I suspect there will be a long line of those lining up for practice times... :)

Cash Works

12-19-04, 17:18

a number of years ago i read an article about some psycho therapy using sexual surrogates. the therapist assigns a sexual surrogate to the patient, they go off and have sex (which is paid for, i assume, by the insurance company) and it's all legal - somehow this isn't prostitution since the surrogate has some sort of clinical training. huh?

anyway, as i said, i read the article years ago, don't remember the source of the article & don't think this sort of therapy is wide spread, but i may be wrong. i read only the one article, so that hardly qualifies me as an expert - for all i know the practice may be banned now.

my point is, if sexual surrogates are legally not considered to be prostitutes & therefore able to ply their trade without fear of being busted by mr. leo, why couldn't they expand their business to those of us who aren't yet under a therapists care? think of it as preventive maintanence. they could even become oosikman's "teaching pro's".

cw

Rubber Nursey

12-22-04, 18:35

I guess there's not really a 'correct' place to post something like this, so I'm just gonna do it here.

To all of you out there in 'the biz' - clients, sex workers, brothel owners, drivers, whatever - I would just like to wish you lots and lots of love, laughter, health and happiness this Christmas and all the very best of luck in the New Year.

To Jackson, Joe, Dickhead, Sporadic, Cash Works, Freeler, Civ2000, Rock Dog, Sinanju Master and all the other gorgeous boys that I've had excellent conversations with and/or beautiful private messages from this year...please accept a great, big virtual sloppy kiss and a heartfelt thankyou for your fabulous company.

To all the sex workers out there who never post but, I'm sure, still frequent this site...you are beautiful, talented, smart, sexy, strong and truly amazing women (and men). Don't ever let anyone tell you different.

And to those of you who have picked on me, yelled at me and called me names throughout the year...your lump of coal is in the mail.

Merry Christmas everyone! :)

Joe Zop

12-22-04, 21:51

right back at ya, rn, and here's wishing you much joy and also at least a little bit of ecstacy in the upcoming year.

cash works, sexual surrogates are definitely still around and i believe there are also a couple of professional membership associations dedicated to them. surrogates are usually highly educated and trained, and generally work in conjunction with a therapist or team of therapists. if i recall correctly, though, you'll generally only find very many in california, new york, and a couple of other places, and good luck getting your insurance company to cover their costs!

one reason surrogates would have a tough time expanding their services as you propose is that it's different from "sexual training" or coaching and is aimed instead at dysfunction, as defined by a psychiatrist or psychologist. that latter distinction makes the relationship fall under the legal umbrella for medical services and therapy, where training would not. (the therapists working with the client's mind and the surrogate with the mind and body.) kind of the same distinction between doing weight or resistance work with a physical therapist after an accident and just doing those same things with an instructor at a gym.

Dickhead

12-22-04, 23:08

Happy New Year to you too Rubbie. Your virtual kiss gave me a virtual woody.

Love,

DH

Travis Bickle 2

12-22-04, 23:19

Happy Holidays to you RN. It's December 22nd and that was the best kiss I've had all year.

Civ2000

Rock Dog

12-23-04, 05:57

Especially to you RN,

That has to be the nicest thing that anyone here has ever posted! It was a joy to read something so genuinely kind. Good luck and much happiness to you in the new year and always.

Rock

PsyberZombie

12-23-04, 12:06

Civ2000 writes =

Happy Holidays to you RN. It's December 22nd and that was the best kiss I've had all year.

You need to get out more , dude

Cash Works

12-23-04, 15:10

rn, thanks for the holiday cheer - same back at ya china.

(i suppose, if i were speaking proper australian, i should have substituted cobber for china, but i never quite figured that one out - china = plate which rhymes with mate - any explanation for the origins of cobber?)

jz,

i didn't really think that expansion of the roll would be possible, especially in the current political climate (conservative christian religious fervor). it's just that the notion of getting your insurance company to pay for your mongering sessions amused the hell out of me.

i suppose, if you were really intent on persuing this angle, you may be able to convince the therapist that your lack of knowledge in the sexual arena was causing you all sorts of anxiety, which is the basis for a host of other disorders.

interesting notion - wouldn't persue it myself, i'd save my money by buying a ticket to rio or bangkok.

happy holidays everyone.

cw

Joe Zop

12-23-04, 17:09

cw, well, considering therapists definitely make rio or bangkok ladies look cheap on a per hour basis, i think it's cheaper to persuade the latter to give you an education, lol. not to mention the fact that surrogates don't usually even get down to intercourse until several sessions have passed. but as i mentioned, most insurance companies won't cover the costs of a surrogate in any event, which takes the irony out of your equation.

here's kind of a parallel thought to yours -- since porn stars aren't classified by law as prostitutes because there's "acting" and freedom of expression issues involved, how far would one have to go to get one's p4p sexual activities under that umbrella? signed contracts? lights and cameras? intent to distribute?

Tea Boy

12-24-04, 04:12

RN,

After reading your latest message my desire to visit you Down Under is stronger than ever!

Tea Boy

Cash Works

12-27-04, 22:06

JZ,

I try to avoid any legal system (American or otherwise) because they appear to be awfully murkey waters to me.

However, I suppose you could skip the lights & cameras by saying you're a "performing artist" and the sex is all part of your "happenning". I suppose you could tie the courts up for quite a while with all your appeals, since I reckon the judges in the lower courts would dismiss your arguments as fabrication.

On another note, I recently took a rather long road trip for business purposes. Along the way, I stopped off at two AMPs. While, I am pretty sure I can deduct the mileage from my taxes, do you think there may be some clever way to deduct the, er, um, stress relief? Unfortunately, I didn't get a receipt either time.

CW

Rock Dog

12-31-04, 06:17

Here's a question I'd like to pose for anyone who cares to offer up an opinion. It goes like this.

There's 2 guys. Both of them feel like they need some variety when it comes to sex. The first guy goes out and hooks up with another girl for a couple of months. He keeps it a secret from his girlfriend. The second guy goes out and picks up a prostitute once or twice a month and he keeps it a secret as well.

Obviously the first guy is cheating. But, would both of them be considered to be equally guilty? I've always thought that getting some on the side from prostitutes could be considered to be a different category but I won't say why because first I want to hear what other people think.

Rock

Travis Bickle 2

01-02-05, 04:36

Rock Dog, I've heard of that scenario before and I think the general assumption is that the hooker would be the lesser of two evils because most guys don't form an emotional attachment with a pro.

On the other hand, a lot of women will grimace at the fact their boyfriend was with a sex worker, even if he wore protection.

Civ2K

Daddy Rulz

01-02-05, 04:49

Rock, for me both are equally guilty. IMHO it's about the violation of trust (yes I know chicks do it as well) if your in a relationship and you have made a commitment to monogamy then I think you should honor that commitment. If you decide that you need to alter yuor commitment I think the person you have made that to has a right to know before, not after. It's not about prostitution being moral or not but rather keeping your word.

Personally I think the whole idea of commitment is outdated but if it's made I think it should be honored.

Sporadic

01-02-05, 12:39

Rock Dog,

Good question. I would have answered it differently 20 years ago. then, the pro would be a lesser evil, but since the spectre of AIDS, although distinct, the "evil" is the same.

As for the question of emotional assasination, that would depend on the girl. Most, IMHO, would be hurt more by the sneaky behind the back affair as opposed to a business transaction with a provider. Of course the affair also carries the risk of a fatal attraction scenario.

Of course, the "second girlfriend" would also be an AIDS risk in theory, so I guess I vote for the provider.

A weak .02, I know, but there you have it.

Cheers,

Sporadic

PsyberZombie

01-02-05, 15:11

My 2 ¢

From a Morality stand·point = Infidelity is Infidelity i.e. both men are Guilty of morally equivalent Acts

From the practical stand·point [ i.e. what will the response of their spouses / GFs be when they get caught ] = Both guys are in Deep Doo·Doo and are probably headed for divorce / break·up

BUT = the guy who got caught with the Pro has a slightly better shot of salvaging his relationship precisely because of the lack of emotional betrayal that sex with a 'Lover' entails

Joe Zop

01-02-05, 17:23

I find myself mostly in agreement with the others here (perhaps a first, eh, PZ? And very well-said Daddy Rulz!) in that the issue is betrayal of trust in both cases, but that there's at least some degree of difference in that going with a pro is more of a strictly physical betrayal whereas another love affair is also an emotional betrayal. You're not going to leave your girlfriend for a pro; you have at least the possibility of doing so with another girlfriend.

It's kind of like saying is it worse to steal $1000 dollars from a store cash register or $100 from a church collection plate. You can argue degree, but both are still stealing.

On the other hand, given the precise scenario Rock Dog laid out -- this is boyfriend/girlfriend and not husband/wife -- it obviously depends on the specifics of the situation, in terms of whether or not there's an agreement of exclusivity, how serious the relationship is, and so on. Someone who steps out on a girlfriend is in misdemeanor-land, as there's no lifetime committment to which both have agreed, and the general sense of "dating" is looking but not necessarily having found. Again, though, it depends on the situation -- stepping out on a live-in girlfriend is obviously different than doing so with someone you've been dating for six months.

Rock Dog

01-02-05, 20:39

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the responses on that question. There seems to be a bit of a consensus in that the key point here is one of emotional involvement. Men and women differ greatly on this point.

Here's my theory. Men have sex mainly for the purpose of pleasure, Women have sex for two reasons. One is to have pleasure and the other is to get something in exchange. That's why we, as men can fuck anything that walks on two legs... and it's also the reason why women tend to be fairly selective when choosing a partner. They're looking for someone who will give them "the best deal" for the privilege of a little poon.

That's why a guy who gets some on the side in in such deep crap if his woman ever finds out. From her perspective, whatever benefit she's getting from him is now cut in half because it's split between 2 different women.

I suspect that it's a little bit different when the other woman is a pro because of the lack of emotional committment and the temporary nature of the involvement. On the other hand, getting some on the side from a hooker wouldn't exactly make one a paragon of trustworthiness either :).

It's too bad there aren't any female members (in addition to RN) who could share their feelings on this subject.

Rock

Pokey

01-03-05, 01:00

I was going to say the same thing as exactly Civ200 said. I think it's a lot worst from a women's viewpoint if you cheated on her with a girlfriend, then a sex worker. Not only to you have the emotional attachment, but there is a real possibility that you might leave your wife for the girlfriend. This can cause major anxiety with the wife as she thinks of losing her husband, maybe her house, and monetary support for her and her kids depending on what kind of job and lawyer she has.

On the other hand sex with a prostitute usually doesn't involved any emotional attachments.( I might have to re- think this, because I know of many mongers falling in love with sex workers)

The wife it seems will usually just get pissed at her husband for being with a sex worker, and maybe make him sleep on the couch for a few days, but usually won't be as mad if it was a girlfriend, for example she won't ask him," do you love her" when referring to the sex worker. ( but with Aids, STDs etc, nowadays she just might be more pissed)

Danny Ruiz, you are so sweet!

Rubber Nursey

01-03-05, 16:48

We've done this question before - from memory, my answer included a blunt knife and a dismembered member. :)

On one hand, knowing that my partner was probably only looking for sex from the sex worker (and that even if he had feelings for her, she probably didn't feel the same way) could be a little easier to stomach than picturing him and another woman sharing the same intimacy that he and I once shared.

On the other hand though, just to be contrary (I'm a chick - it's my prerogative) I can sort of understand him risking everything if he's fallen head over heels in love with someone else. Love makes you crazy like that and for all he knows, she could be 'The One' and I might not be. But how could I excuse my partner risking a long term relationship just for a bit of variety in the bedroom? It says a lot about how much respect he has for me, if an hour with a hooker is more important to him than our marriage.

But either way, cheating is cheating. Ultimately, he's betrayed my trust - not to mention denting my self-esteem, by making me feel like I wasn't satisfying him physically and/or emotionally. So, sex worker or other woman - the blunt knife would come out regardless...

Joe Zop

01-03-05, 17:16

Rock Dog, I've gotta admit I don't get your whole "something in exchange" concept, or at least I don't really buy it as you've described it.

To say that in general women are looking for relationships and men are looking for sex might have some truth to it, but that's a different thing.

And, as some of the women who married guys I know definitely prove, women will also fuck anything on two legs, even if it hasn't been washed or housebroken in a very long time...

And RN, I continue to find your position quite a highly ironic one, given that you've defined yourself as someone for whom monogamy is impossible :)

Rock Dog

01-03-05, 19:23

JZ,

When I used that term "something in exchange" I was taking a bit of a shortcut. I believe that (in general) women are more selective about who they will have sex with. An even better way of saying it would be to say "Who they would give sex to".

Like I said in my last post, men do it mainly for pleasure. Take a hot babe and get her to go up to a hundred guys and ask them if they want a quick fuck, no strings attached. Most of them will say yes (probably even a lot of married men). Try the same thing in reverse and you don't get the same result. A hot looking guy who's looking for a quick fuck with no strings attached will NOT get a lot of positive responses from women.

Why not you might ask? Because they don't think the same way we do. Because women WANT to have strings attached. Part of this is a female need for intimacy. But part of it is what I call "the better deal". They can easily get a sex partner anytime they want, so why should they give it out to someone who isn't offering anything but sex when there's so many others out there who'll give them more.

Most women operate on this principle. It's an attitude that they have here. They view sex as a valuable commodity not to be given away for free.
If they didn't have this view, there'd be no such thing as prostitution because there'd be no need for it. This forum wouldn't even exist because everybody would be out there getting laid for free.

Rock

Rubber Nursey

01-04-05, 06:43

Joe -- Just because I admit to being a cheater, doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do. I would expect my partner to feel exactly the same way if I was the one cheating on him. :p

Contrary to the views that most guys in here seem to subscribe to, some women DO just want to have no-strings sex for the sake of having sex. I'm one of them. I could quite happily go out and shag a different person every day and still be very much in love with my partner. But is it gonna hurt my partner any less if I tell him it was 'just sex' and it didn't mean anything to me? I don't think so.

Let's turn Rock Dog's question back on you guys...would it make a difference to YOU whether your girlfriend was having an emotional affair with another man or having regular sex with a male sex worker? Would you be more likely to forgive her if the other guy was a hooker? I mean, after all, who cares if he's a gorgeous young stud that's half your age - so long as she's not emotionally involved with him, right?

Sporadic

01-04-05, 09:28

RN:
Let's turn Rock Dog's question back on you guys...would it make a difference to YOU whether your girlfriend was having an emotional affair with another man or having regular sex with a male sex worker? Would you be more likely to forgive her if the other guy was a hooker? I mean, after all, who cares if he's a gorgeous young stud that's half your age - so long as she's not emotionally involved with him, right? Dear, sweet RN, as wise as you are, you seem to have forgotten some simple truths.

1. Every man knows that they alone are the maximum expression of the species, equipped with unique charm, appeal and the finest example of the male member since the origin of bipeds.

2. The rules are different for men, since all we are doing is allowing a wider cross-section of the female population to sample pure male perfection.

3. Cheating by a woman is an obvious expression of her mental instability, why on earth would she look for second best?

4. While it could be construed that we were less than perfect (perish the thought!), two rationalization techniques are sometimes used:

A. I will now go and spread my seed far and wide, to prove to the world that I am still King of the hill.

B. I may actually feel pity for the poor confused woman who has spurned perfection, and simply was conquered by a fellow male, who was just proving his studliness. Indeed, we can understand how the other guy wanted to have "our" woman, after all, we picked them FIRST.

If you just keep these sage truths in mind, you would realize what a silly question you posed.

Of course it is not the same.

Cheers,

Sporadic

Ps. those of you lacking the sarcasm gene, try reading the post again with tongue firmly in cheek. ;)