View Full Version : Prostitution and Law Enforcement
TallnHandsome,
I think what you're talking about is jaywalking, which is defined as crossing a street anywhere but at an intersection which has a crosswalk or a handicap access ramp, which, unbeknownst to most pedestrians and drivers, has the same status as a crosswalk (a cop told me this). You will definitely get a ticket for jaywalking across a major or busy thoroughfare in LA. The LAPD is pretty agggressive about this. Last I heard, the fine was $50. There is good reason for this; two well known people in the past ten years have been killed after being hit by cars while jaywalking across Wilshire Blvd. One was a female school board member, the other was the activist and former Yippie Jerry Rubin. Who knows how many unknowns have had a similar fate that doesn't merit printing in the paper.
In years past the LAPD had a reputation for stopping any pedestrian who "looked suspicious," which usually meant being black or Latino, especially in a white neighborhood. They no longer do this, thanks largely to some successful law suits.
That's the situation in LA. As for the rest of CA, I can't say. Jaywalking is illegal anywhere in the state, but whether the laws are enforced anywhere outside the City of the Angels, I don't know.
Lorenzo
Bez Bezarra
06-15-04, 04:20
Civvy.
Maybe I exaggerated slightly, but when I said 5 stings a week, I'm talking about
for all of the PD's from Miami Beach, to Hialeah, Hollywood, Ft.Lauderdale, Boca, Delray, Lake Worth, West Palm, to Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville, and everywhere in between, etc. etc. Don't know how well you know SoFla, but there's over 5 million in these 3 counties alone, that's plenty of work, and unlimited supply of suckers and their cash. Everybody's gotta work, and everybody gets paid, and everyone wants to get laid. This is not something they don't know. Instead of your cash going for pussy, it goes to pussy police.
Only 5 arrests in a sting? More like 5 in an hour, on a slow night. They rotate crews, so as soon as they drag one fool away in cuffs, they second crew's ready for the next sucker. There's enough female employees now that they don't run out of decoys.
Compared to the frightening crack monsters that walk these streets, any female that isn't dripping green ooze down her thighs is gonna have cars lined up down the block, just waiting their turn to get trapped. 15 cops? How about 5 plus the decoy. 2 teams of 2 for the takedown, plus one at the table to process the marks, plus the decoy. Oh, I forgot the paddy wagon driver, sorry!
Just read where they post the names. It always goes on for 2 pages. 20 to 25 is probably average. Pinto or Porsche, it don't matter. If you need to drive to work, its $1000 or no car. Obviously, for Jose the drunk gardner who was looking for a $5 blowjob from the major's secretary, he won't even have the cash to bail out, let alone get his jalopy back. But they'll let him make payments, and squeeze every dollar out of him that they can. And remember, that's only the start. By the time you finish paying the lawyer, who by no coincidence used to be the prosecutor and set the whole scam up with the judge and the cops, you're looking at another $3500. Again, a few years running the scam, and its in the millions.
Finally, you are 1000% mistaken saying that seizing cars is what reduces activity.
What reduces activity is picking up all the girls, and then stinging the customers and locking them up. The cars is ONLY about cash. Just look at any other city in the country that runs stings but doesn't charge $1000 to give back your car.
They reduce activity just as much. Down here, the only thing that stops the cars from pulling up to proposition officer skank ***** for a hummer, is when they close up shop for the night at 1 or 2 am. The difference between here and other states, is that other states aren't doing it for revenue, because they won't get away with it.
Here, that IS "the game", that's from the city attorney himself, not me! Some cities, they just give you a fucking ticket, and you pay a $50 fine. Here, you can spend 2 or 3 days in the can until they even let you bail out.
Facts are in the bank accounts you'll never see. The game in SoFla is serious business, get rich, get out. Greed rules, and its easier than taking candy from a baby down here. Busting upper level drug cases, bank robbers, killers, man that's too fucking dangerous, they might get shot, are you crazy?
Travis Bickle 2
06-15-04, 20:51
Mangus, Points well taken and I may have to change my position on a couple of items.
I do disagree however that seizing cars does not reduce activity. In places like Long Beach, California where they had been seizing cars activity was greatly reduced. It's one thing to risk a small fine for solicitation but the thought that you may lose your vehicle or have to pay a large amount to get it back is a great deterrent. I know a couple of guys who were arrested for prostitution and their wifes never even found out. But try explaining to your wife why the new SUV is gone.
Also, the type of car does matter. I've got a brand new truck and I'm looking for a cheap beater car for mongering. If they take my junker away, I will certainly not pay a grand to get it back, rather I'll just buy another junker. In a lot of places you pay 15% to get it back which in my case would be about $5000.
Also, the supreme court has ruled that when drugs are found in a car they are considered to be in the possession of all the occupants of the vehicle. Now, how many SW's do you know that might possibly be carrying a crack pipe? Lots. They can keep your car permanently in this scenario and then you'd be really glad you were driving the Pinto instead of the Porsche.
Generally the stings don't reduce activity too much because it is usually "Jose the gardener" or some newby that they catch. I would guesstimate that 90% of the mongers who pick up SW's on this board never get caught in stings because we know what to look out for.
My mongering days are over for a while until I find a cheap car. My city does not seize for solicitation but does for drugs and I've lost count of the number of crack pipes I've found in my car after a date.
Is it just me or does anyone have a clue what TallnHandsome is asking? His question was lost on me.
Civ
Merlin Magician
06-16-04, 01:51
Great news today in Phoenix. About 60 of the alleged prostitution cases filed by Sheriff Joes inept bumblers have been dismissed because of investigator misconduct.
Dumb MCSO shits need to go back to enforcing the law out in the county instead of trying to lead a moral crusade against hard working people trying to have a little fun in town.
Smut Villain
06-16-04, 02:02
****************************************************
Civ2000 asks:
"Is it just me or does anyone have a clue what TallnHandsome is asking? His question was lost on me. "
****************************************************
Civ,
I think he may be refering to how some jurisdictions will harass a girl for loitering, etc. when in actuality they're trying to discourage streetwalkers from working. They will sometimes use some weak-assed excuse or criteria to justify this harassment, but both the cops and the hookers know what's really going down.
I know this because they do it all the time in my town; it's why I don't do the SW scene anymore ( I stick to the stripclubs. Get into the right one and extras can be had for less than you think).
S.V.
Bez Bezarra
06-16-04, 05:33
Ok Civvy.
I totally forgot about getting pulled over after I've picked up a REAL SW, so you reminded me that it did happen way way back in the 80's in a very bad part of Miami when I whipped a u-turn after realizing the neighborhood that the ho had told me to drive through. An undercover narc in a real bad mood yanked me out of my car and was frantically searching every inch of my vehicle, thinking that we had already made a buy. But the ho was only trying to get me to take her to her pusher to score, and when I figured out what was up, I said fuck no, we're outa here, and that's when we got stopped.
Every vein in this cops bald sunburned head was bulging out and about to explode, and then he finds my speargun in my trunk and yells at me "A HA!!! WHAT IS THIS???" I said I go spearfishing you moron, look and you'll see my mask fins and snorkel and dive flag in the mesh bag in the trunk. He went crazy after that and I was sure he was going to stroke out right there, but finally screamed at me to fuck off and never come back. I grudge fucked that damn ho hard enough to make her walk funny for a few days after putting me through that nightmare.
Your story about 15%, or $5K to get back a car is totally insane, jesus fuck hell,
five fucking thousand????
I still disagree that seizing IS ONLY about the cash, not activity, because if you have enough money on you, you can sometimes bail out and get your car as soon as you get to the impound lot. The only extra step here to really scare customers away is when they publish photos of who gets arrested in the newspaper AND on fucking billboards! That was the West Palm female piece of shit mayor's brainstorm. What a complete loser, that's her life's work contribution to politics and civil service because she's so ugly no one will fuck her, not even a blind man.
But not having your wife find out is impossible, because after you're arrested, the cops give all the lawyers a list of everyone's name and address, and for the next 2 weeks, you get about 3 letters each day from a lawyer offereing you his expert services to take your case. I think after 20 or 30 letters that say, Dear John, since you'ver been busted for soliciting for prostitution, please let us defend you in court, the Mrs. is gonna know you was out looking to get your knob polished.
Daddy Lows
06-16-04, 21:28
sorry to change the topic but can anyone confirm this? it sounds over the top but somehow i think it could happen there:
--------------- not so subliminal messages -----------------
richmond, va. - virginia residents will soon be noticing new billboards going up around town with messages aimed at men to dissuade them from having sex with **** girls. billboards, posters, and even coasters and napkins in bars, restaurants, and stores will carry the gentle reminder "isn't she a little young?" or "sex with a minor, don't go there." this new campaign is designed to reduce the number of young girls who have children with older men. in virginia in 1999 and 2000, men over 18 were responsible for 219 births involving girls ages 13 and 14, the virginia depart- ment of health said. "we encourage adult men to talk to their peers and discourage them from pursuing teenagers. what they are doing is unhealthy and against the law," said robert franklin, a health department official. the messages will be appearing in five cities.
Rabo Verde
06-19-04, 21:22
SAN FRANCISCO
Financier indicted on charges of molesting kids in Thailand, Mexico
- Bob Egelko, Elizabeth Fernandez, Chronicle Staff Writers
Saturday, June 19, 2004
Federal prosecutors have unsealed an indictment charging multimillionaire San Francisco financier Robert F. White with traveling to Thailand and Mexico to molest and exploit children.
The grand jury indictment, reported by The Chronicle in April, accuses the 68-year-old White of conspiring to violate the so-called child sex tourism law. That law prohibits traveling from the United States to other countries to have sex with minors, even if the sexual activity is legal where it took place. He also is charged with conspiring to produce child pornography.
Besides imprisonment, prosecutors seek forfeiture of homes owned by White in Thailand and Mexico, or if the foreign properties cannot be seized, then of two buildings in San Francisco.
White has been jailed in Bangkok since February 2003 fighting extradition to Mexico, where he is charged with child sex abuse, child prostitution and providing drugs to minors. A ruling on extradition is due from a Thai court next Friday. He also has been sued for damages by some of his alleged victims -- all of them young males -- in U.S. District Court in San Francisco and in state court.
One of those plaintiffs, Daniel Garcia, now 21, said Friday he never thought he would see the day that White was charged in the United States.
"It's been such an uphill battle for two years,'' said Garcia, who helped to set the federal investigation in motion and has traveled the world on behalf of White's alleged victims. "For someone who has such wealth and power as Tom White, it's amazing that this is happening to him. It's good to know that the wheels of justice turn slowly, but they do turn.''
White's attorney, Stuart Hanlon, predicted his client would be acquitted.
"It appears that this is part of the U.S. Justice Department's ... making legal decisions based on what they view as moral,'' Hanlon said. "It's the religious right-wing agenda of John Ashcroft. This administration feels we're the police of the world.''
White, an investor and stockbroker, founded Thomas F. White & Co. in 1978. The Chronicle reported in 2002 that he had apparently funded a children's school and shelter in a Thai resort area and paid to build an orphanage, a school and an adjoining 53-site resort hotel south of Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.
According to the indictment, dated March 23 and unsealed Thursday, White conspired with unnamed individuals to travel to Mexico between 1999 and 2001, and to Thailand between 2000 and 2003, to molest juveniles.
The conspirators provided "food, shelter, gifts and other material objects'' to the youths in Thailand and made and shared photographs of them, the indictment said. It also described a December 2001 e-mail in which another conspirator allegedly discussed creating a room next to a children's room in Thailand for White to have sex.
The private damage suit against White, which is still pending, alleges that he used food, shelter and gifts to lure poor children - some living on the street, others working as prostitutes - to his house about 50 miles south of Bangkok, where he and his friends would have sex with them.
No one else was charged in the indictment. White's personal assistant, Nathan Lovaas of Modesto, was indicted last September on similar federal charges.
Short One #2
06-30-04, 05:44
I agree about 5 stings week being a bit much even considering the size and population of Dade, Broward, and Palm Bch counties. Where Mangus is totally correct is on the number of johns picked up. I got nailed once and was cuffed, processed and told to get walking aka "get the flock out of here" within a matter of 20 mins. The cops were set up in a bank parking lot about 3 blocks away from where I was snagged, there were about 10 of them doing processing and the motherf***rs had about 5 towtrucks in line, motors running ready for the next asshole. The next morning when I went to get my car back there were about 20 other poor assh**les waiting in line, and those are the ones with the $1000 in hand. I'm sure there were another 20-30 guys who couldn't come up with the money or had been drinking and went to the stockade instead of for a walk.
It IS all about money, Miami is one big payoff city and I'm sure the towtruck companies donate lots of money to the judges and commisioners who put these laws on the books. And it cannot be a coincidence that Miami started that sh*t in the middle of a financial crisis. Regarding the amount of female officers, I think they use city workers to expand the pool and probably deputize them or some sh*t like that.
Must be nice to be a Police Major, cause you could probably get the bi*ch to blow you before she went out as a decoy, LOL.
Stay Safe in Mongerland and F**k the Police.
AGE of CONSENT
This is the address of a chart tha lists the age of consent for every country in the world. Obviously prostitution laws probably make it 18 in almost every country where is legal.
ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm
Bez Bezarra
07-11-04, 03:58
Whoa Nelly!!!
The planets must really be aligned perfect tonight as I was just moments ago handed a rarely seen LE Monger's Saturday Night Special ! You just never know when the cops will get ya laid.
Yes, tonight it was the old
LE-in-reverse druggy-stripper hot 'n extra horny first grudge fuck outa the can !
The lovely and flat broke Lisa had been locked up by SoFla's finest for the last 17 days, and thanks to a friend of a friend and lucky timing, she just became MY new friend only 5 hours after getting released. Eager to share her sweet firm 34's with little pink pointy nips, and a gash that kept gettin' hotter and squirmier the more I tongued her and plunged her, she was unable to blow me thanks to her broken jaw courtesy of her A-1 ex-prince boyfriend, but still had the spunk to spin around at the proper moment to recieve gobs of my goo on her back molars. No longer broke nor suffering from a case of sperm deficiency, she's smiling now stoned, dumb, and full of come.
Have to say thanks to LE this time, now that's what I call serving the public!
Rabo Verde
07-12-04, 19:58
Cops, D.A. tangle over strip club raids
Phillip Matier, Andrew Ross
Monday, July 12, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More sparks are flying between San Francisco police and District Attorney Kamala Harris -- this time over the D.A.'s refusal to prosecute nine women the vice cops arrested on prostitution charges during raids at a couple of "theater" clubs a few weeks back.
"It just leaves me in amazement,'' says vice Capt. Tim Hettrich, who likened the D.A.'s inaction to "almost legalizing prostitution.''
The D.A.'s office sees it a bit differently -- calling the arrests "business as usual'' and saying that while the cops were all too eager to arrest the women, they all but ignored the club's owners and the alleged johns.
If it all sounds a bit political, that's because it is.
Sex clubs have long been a tricky proposition in liberal San Francisco politics. For years, the attitude -- especially under libertine former D.A. Terence Hallinan -- seemed to be, "Don't ask, don't tell,'' especially at clubs whose owners were involved in local politics.
Plus, there's always been the question of whether prostitutes are criminals or victims.
Then, when the new D.A. came into office, the vice squad -- under the supervision of Fajitagate hyper-investigator Joe Dutto -- decided the time had come to start a cleanup. He called the club prostitution "out of control.''
The first step was to send letters to a couple of dozen strip clubs warning that investigators would be checking on their business licenses and permits.
The cops' move apparently set off an alarm at the D.A.'s office. Because the next thing you know, everyone was having a sit-down at which the cops agreed to back off until Harris could come up with a game plan that included the police and the city attorney -- after ironing out such issues as "abuse of the dancers, police misconduct during arrests and selected enforcement,'' according to a D.A.'s statement.
And while the cops waited ... and waited ... the public complaints kept coming in. Eventually, they decided to move on their own.
A pair of stings followed, one at the Market Street Theater and the other at the New Century Theater on Larkin Street. In each case, three undercover officers said they were solicited for sex acts by female employees within minutes.
In all, nine women were arrested -- and so was the male general manager of the New Century, who was booked for allegedly keeping a house of ill repute.
The cops said they were slam-dunk cases, but Harris' office took one look at the arrests and tossed them all.
And the bad-mouthing began.
The D.A.'s office says that the cops acted out of hand and that rather than wasting time and money on raiding clubs, they should be on the streets fighting more serious crimes.
In fact, Harris' office said in its statement, "We have had no arrests of street-level pimps and johns.''
"That's an outright lie,'' countered Dutto, who says the cops arrest 50 to 70 johns every month. He also said juveniles picked up for prostitution are routinely interviewed in an attempt to get them to turn on their pimps.
As for the club raids, the cops say they were just doing their jobs.
"When we went out there, we found girls who were engaging in acts of prostitution in the (illegally enclosed) booths, and that's why we took action, '' Hettrich said.
This being San Francisco, there's always another card in the deck somewhere. In this case, it's the feeling in the D.A.'s office that the cops are trying to use busts as a way to embarrass Harris for her refusal to bring a death penalty case against the alleged killer of Officer Isaac Espinoza, a popular cop who was shot to death in the Bayview this past spring.
Hettrich called the "payback'' spin "absolutely B.S.''
Maybe, but it does underscore the still-testy feelings between the two camps down at the Hall of Justice.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3900361.stm
I thought this article which briefly explains how some different countries tackle prostitution might be of some interest.
Omaha pulling the old Post-The-Johns'-Names-On-A-Billboard ruse. http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=1636&u_sid=1169009
A fun court document from the case of United States of America vs. Charles Floyd Pipkins, aka Sir Charles, and Andrew Moore Jr., aka Batman, a couple of pimps from Atlanta. http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200214306.pdf. Note this document details the behind-the-scenes life of a pimp in Atlanta and requires Adobe Acrobat Reader to open (Adobe Acrobat Reader is a free download that can be found with an Internet search. Most computers come with it already loaded.)
Somebody please explain to me what the (good)logic is of a street walker insisting that the John state what he wants prior to getting in the car with him?
If all street walkers wised up and stopped doing this stupid practice then at least it would be harder for LE to bust Johns.
Is it so hard for a street walker to get into a John's car without saying anything and doing the "feel" test after the John has driven away for at least a block from the initial pick up stop before starting the negotiations? I'm sure this isn't a cure all but at least it greatly minimizes the risk of getting busted by LE.
What does the street walker get out of asking the John to state his intentions before getting into the car with him. This only makes any half way intelligent John suspicious that the street walker is an undercover LE. Thus the street walker loses a lot of potential (smart/suspicious) Johns.
Even if the John does state his intentions prior what does the street walker gain versus waiting and being more cautious about business dealings by doing what I suggested above.
The John can always change his mind as to the initial offer he made to her while he is in the car and she is outside. Or the guy can be a psycho killer bullshiting about how much he will pay her to lure her into the car. So I don't see the benefit of getting a John to state his intentions prior to getting into a car with them. Unless of course the supposed street walker is really a undercover LE.
Rubber Nursey
08-19-04, 05:20
when you weigh up being thrown in lockup for an hour and fined a hundred dollars, against being beaten to a pulp, raped and left to die in a ditch - i'd say most street workers would choose the former. being arrested is the least of their worries.
i don't know much about girls in your part of the world, but here the street workers use those few minutes leaning in the car window to completely assess the prospective client. she notices whether he's drunk or on drugs, peeks around his car for a gun or baseball bat or whatever, checks out the locks to make sure he hasn't messed with them to lock her in and a whole lot of other things.
no, it doesn't guarantee that he's not going to be an axe murderer or rip her off - but as a working girl you really do develop the ability to assess a man's entire character in just a matter of moments. its a survival mechanism. our instinct becomes very finely tuned and in the time it takes for her to lean in and ask you what you want, she's probably got you totally figured you out. sometimes she'll be wrong, but most of the time she will be dead on.
i know that doesn't help you guys much, but - no offence :) - i would rather see one of you getting a fine, than one of those girls getting her throat cut.
Travis Bickle 2
08-19-04, 06:13
RN is right on the mark here; it is definately in the SW's best interest to do a quickie negotiation before she gets in. It's not just for safety reasons but a lot of the gals I pick up say I'd be amazed by the number of guys who offer something ridiculous like ten bucks and then get pissed off when they say no way.
On the other hand police decoys in the United States never get into the Johns car and the only way to safely pick up a SW is to get her in the car and begin driving away before any mention of sex or money.
Most of us guys here will simply drive off if the SW attempts to come to the driver's window or starts asking what we want before she gets in. Most of the SW's know this and will open the passenger door and do a quick sizing up of the the john and his car before getting in. If they ask what I want or if I want a date I simply ask for directions or offer them a ride.
In my city (Seattle) even asking if one is a cop in a prostitution area is enough to get arrested under the cities intent to solicite law. Which I can provide upon request.
To sum it up the SW's will try and do what makes things safer for them and us John's will do the same. We meet somewhere in the middle and both sides are happy.
RN, Also if you would, could you please check out my question on the sexual addiction thread and answer if you deem it worthy?
Hookers in Missouri are fighting back. http://www.local6.com/news/3674397/detail.html They've set up their own Web site to monitor vice cops.
Butterfly44
09-04-04, 13:00
would the exchange of money between a man and a woman be a menace to society?
only the jealous get neither the sex, nor the money, hence the puritanism.
please find here a copy and paste of the excellent relevant editorial leader from the magazine the economist, u.k. issue, dd. september 02nd 2004, together with a picture of the cover.
(as the copy is much less than 10% of the issue, hopefully, i am not transgressing any copyright laws.) - (say and explain me how if i was. - thanks.)
if ever, for reference, here is the link:
http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3151258
prostitution
sex is their business
sep 2nd 2004
from the economist print edition
attitudes to commercial sex are hardening. but tougher laws are wrong in both principle and practice
two adults enter a room, agree a price, and have sex. has either committed a crime? common sense suggests not: sex is not illegal in itself, and the fact that money has changed hands does not turn a private act into a social menace. if both parties consent, it is hard to see how either is a victim. but prostitution has rarely been treated as just another transaction, or even as a run-of-the-mill crime: the oldest profession is also the oldest pretext for outraged moralising and unrealistic lawmaking devised by man.
in recent years, governments have tended to bother with prostitution only when it threatened public order. most countries (including britain and america) have well-worn laws against touting on street corners, against the more brazen type of brothel and against pimping. this has never been ideal, partly because sellers of sex feel the force of law more strongly than do buyers, and partly because anti-soliciting statutes create perverse incentives. on some occasions, magistrates who have fined streetwalkers have been asked to wait a few days so that the necessary money can be earned.
so there is perennial discussion of reforming prostitution laws. during the 1990s, the talk was all of liberalisation. now the wind is blowing the other way. in 1999, sweden criminalised the buying of sex. france then cracked down on soliciting and outlawed commercial sex with vulnerable women—a category that includes pregnant women. britain began to enforce new laws against kerb-crawling earlier this year, and is now considering more restrictive legislation (see article ). outside a few pragmatic enclaves, attitudes are hardening. whereas, ten years ago, the discussion was mostly about how to manage prostitution and make it less harmful, the aim now is to find ways to stamp it out.
the puritans have the whip hand not because they can prove that tough laws will make life better for women, but because they have convinced governments that prostitution is intolerable by its very nature. what has tipped the balance is the globalisation of the sex business.
how swedish policies influence britain
sep 2nd 2004
immigration and prostitution in britain
sep 2nd 2004
prostitution
jul 11th 2003
time to legalise prostitution
jan 4th 2001
human rights
the white slave trade
it is not surprising that many of the rich world's prostitutes are foreigners. immigrants have a particularly hard time finding jobs that pay well; local language skills are not prized in the sex trade; prostitutes often prefer to work outside their home town. but the free movement of labour is as controversial in the sex trade as in any other business. wherever they work, foreign prostitutes are accused of driving down prices, touting “extra” services and consorting with organised criminal pimps who are often foreigners, too. the fact that a very small proportion of women are trafficked—forced into prostitution against their will—has been used to discredit all foreigners in the trade, and by extension (since many sellers of sex are indeed foreign) all prostitutes.
abolitionists make three arguments. from the right comes the argument that the sex trade is plain wrong, and that, by condoning it, society demeans itself. liberals (such as this newspaper) who believe that what consenting adults do in private is their own business reject that line.
from the left comes the argument that all prostitutes are victims. its proponents cite studies that show high rates of sexual abuse and drug taking among employees. to which there are two answers. first, those studies are biased: they tend to be carried out by staff at drop-in centres and by the police, who tend to see the most troubled streetwalkers. taking their clients as representative of all prostitutes is like assessing the state of marriage by sampling shelters for battered women. second, the association between prostitution and drug addiction does not mean that one causes the other: drug addicts, like others, may go into prostitution just because it's a good way of making a decent living if you can't think too clearly.
a third, more plausible, argument focuses on the association between prostitution and all sorts of other nastinesses, such as drug addiction, organised crime, trafficking and **** sex. to encourage prostitution, goes the line, is to encourage those other undesirables; to crack down on prostitution is to discourage them.
brothels with brands
plausible, but wrong. criminalisation forces prostitution into the underworld. legalisation would bring it into the open, where abuses such as trafficking and under-age prostitution can be more easily tackled. brothels would develop reputations worth protecting. access to health care would improve—an urgent need, given that so many prostitutes come from diseased parts of the world. abuses such as child or forced prostitution should be treated as the crimes they are, and not discussed as though they were simply extreme forms of the sex trade, which is how opponents of prostitution and, recently, the governments of britain and america have described them.
puritans argue that where laws have been liberalised—in, for instance, the netherlands, germany and australia—the new regimes have not lived up to claims that they would wipe out pimping and sever the links between prostitution and organised crime. certainly, those links persist; but that's because, thanks to concessions to the opponents of liberalisation, the changes did not go far enough. prostitutes were made to register, which many understandably didn't want to do. not surprisingly, illicit brothels continued to thrive.
if those quasi-liberal experiments have not lived up to their proponents' expectations, they have also failed to fulfil their detractors' greatest fears. they do not seem to have led to outbreaks of disease or under-age sex, nor to a proliferation of street prostitution, nor to a wider collapse in local morals.
which brings us back to that discreet transaction between two people in private. if there's no evidence that it harms others, then the state should let them get on with it. people should be allowed to buy and sell whatever they like, including their own bodies. prostitution may be a grubby business, but it's not the government's.
GettingTang
09-04-04, 20:49
The "pickup" should never present a risk for being busted. Not ever, unless you a real idiot! If she does not get in, simply smile, wave and drive away. It's that simple!
The bigger concern, for me and most seasoned mongers is getting busted while parked and in the act. This is highly more likely to happen.
Finding a good place to park these days where you don't have to worry about LE is becoming more and more difficult.
TANG~!
Moonlighting cop killed working as a bouncer at The Sting, a Detroit topless club. http://www.freep.com/news/locway/cop3e_20040903.htm
i have heard from more then one sw about having been forced to perform services on cops, then when done told to leave the city or go to jail.
isn't it funny how in la at least the cops always are busting the hot s/w's and never mess with the ugly ones?
i would love to see the us justice department do a sting on the cops just once to see these [CodeWord126] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord126) put away.
compton is famous for feeling up the girls and more then threatening them.
http://sfweekly.com/issues/2004-09-08/feature.html/1/index.html
. This story is long, but it's an interesting history of sex work in modern San Francisco strip clubs.
sex is their business
sep 2nd 2004
from the economist print edition
attitudes to commercial sex are hardening. but tougher laws are wrong in both principle and practice
two adults enter a room, agree a price, and have sex. has either committed a crime? common sense suggests not: sex is not illegal in itself, and the fact that money has changed hands does not turn a private act into a social menace. if both parties consent, it is hard to see how either is a victim. but prostitution has rarely been treated as just another transaction, or even as a run-of-the-mill crime: the oldest profession is also the oldest pretext for outraged moralising and unrealistic lawmaking devised by man.
in recent years, governments have tended to bother with prostitution only when it threatened public order. most countries (including britain and america) have well-worn laws against touting on street corners, against the more brazen type of brothel and against pimping. this has never been ideal, partly because sellers of sex feel the force of law more strongly than do buyers, and partly because anti-soliciting statutes create perverse incentives. on some occasions, magistrates who have fined streetwalkers have been asked to wait a few days so that the necessary money can be earned.
so there is perennial discussion of reforming prostitution laws. during the 1990s, the talk was all of liberalisation. now the wind is blowing the other way. in 1999, sweden criminalised the buying of sex. france then cracked down on soliciting and outlawed commercial sex with vulnerable women—a category that includes pregnant women. britain began to enforce new laws against kerb-crawling earlier this year, and is now considering more restrictive legislation (see article). outside a few pragmatic enclaves, attitudes are hardening. whereas, ten years ago, the discussion was mostly about how to manage prostitution and make it less harmful, the aim now is to find ways to stamp it out.
the puritans have the whip hand not because they can prove that tough laws will make life better for women, but because they have convinced governments that prostitution is intolerable by its very nature. what has tipped the balance is the globalisation of the sex business.
the white slave trade
it is not surprising that many of the rich world's prostitutes are foreigners. immigrants have a particularly hard time finding jobs that pay well; local language skills are not prized in the sex trade; prostitutes often prefer to work outside their home town. but the free movement of labour is as controversial in the sex trade as in any other business. wherever they work, foreign prostitutes are accused of driving down prices, touting “extra” services and consorting with organised criminal pimps who are often foreigners, too. the fact that a very small proportion of women are trafficked—forced into prostitution against their will—has been used to discredit all foreigners in the trade, and by extension (since many sellers of sex are indeed foreign) all prostitutes.
abolitionists make three arguments. from the right comes the argument that the sex trade is plain wrong, and that, by condoning it, society demeans itself. liberals (such as this newspaper) who believe that what consenting adults do in private is their own business reject that line.
from the left comes the argument that all prostitutes are victims. its proponents cite studies that show high rates of sexual abuse and drug taking among employees. to which there are two answers. first, those studies are biased: they tend to be carried out by staff at drop-in centres and by the police, who tend to see the most troubled streetwalkers. taking their clients as representative of all prostitutes is like assessing the state of marriage by sampling shelters for battered women. second, the association between prostitution and drug addiction does not mean that one causes the other: drug addicts, like others, may go into prostitution just because it's a good way of making a decent living if you can't think too clearly.
a third, more plausible, argument focuses on the association between prostitution and all sorts of other nastinesses, such as drug addiction, organised crime, trafficking and **** sex. to encourage prostitution, goes the line, is to encourage those other undesirables; to crack down on prostitution is to discourage them.
brothels with brands
plausible, but wrong. criminalisation forces prostitution into the underworld. legalisation would bring it into the open, where abuses such as trafficking and under-age prostitution can be more easily tackled. brothels would develop reputations worth protecting. access to health care would improve—an urgent need, given that so many prostitutes come from diseased parts of the world. abuses such as child or forced prostitution should be treated as the crimes they are, and not discussed as though they were simply extreme forms of the sex trade, which is how opponents of prostitution and, recently, the governments of britain and america have described them.
puritans argue that where laws have been liberalised—in, for instance, the netherlands, germany and australia—the new regimes have not lived up to claims that they would wipe out pimping and sever the links between prostitution and organised crime. certainly, those links persist; but that's because, thanks to concessions to the opponents of liberalisation, the changes did not go far enough. prostitutes were made to register, which many understandably didn't want to do. not surprisingly, illicit brothels continued to thrive.
if those quasi-liberal experiments have not lived up to their proponents' expectations, they have also failed to fulfil their detractors' greatest fears. they do not seem to have led to outbreaks of disease or under-age sex, nor to a proliferation of street prostitution, nor to a wider collapse in local morals.
which brings us back to that discreet transaction between two people in private. if there's no evidence that it harms others, then the state should let them get on with it. people should be allowed to buy and sell whatever they like, including their own bodies. prostitution may be a grubby business, but it's not the government's.
Star Dreamer
09-23-04, 09:51
More harassment on the way for those in uniform as well as those civilians associated with the Defense Department.
Washington Post
September 22, 2004
Pg. 13
Anti-Prostitution Rule Drafted For U.S. Forces
By Pauline Jelinek, Associated Press
U.S. service members stationed overseas could face a court-martial for patronizing prostitutes under a new regulation drafted by the Pentagon.
The move is part of a Defense Department effort to reduce the possibility that service members will contribute to [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) in areas near their overseas bases by seeking the services of women forced into prostitution.
In recent years, "women and girls are being forced into prostitution for a clientele consisting largely of military services members, government contractors and international peacekeepers" in such places as South Korea and the Balkans, Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-N.J.) said yesterday at a Capitol Hill forum on Pentagon anti-trafficking efforts.
Defense officials have drafted an amendment to the manual on courts-martial that would make it an offense for service members to use the services of prostitutes, said Charles S. Abell, a Pentagon undersecretary for personnel and readiness.
If approved, the amendment would make it a military offense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice to have contact with a prostitute, Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke, an Abell spokeswoman, said later. The draft rule is
open to 60 days of public comment after being published in the Federal Register, she said.
Officials also are developing a training program for service members and contractors, to be distributed in November. The program will explain trafficking, department policy on it and possible legal action against violators, Abell said in a written statement.
Additionally, the military is reviewing regulations and procedures for placing off-limits those businesses where such activities take place and working with Justice Department officials to tighten rules on contractor misconduct.
Gen. Leon J. LaPorte, commander of the 37,000 U.S. service members in South Korea, said another initiative started on the peninsula has been to "make on-base military life a more desirable experience, and attempt to diminish the seductive appeal of many of the less wholesome off-duty pursuits."
That effort includes offering expanded evening and weekend education programs, band concerts, late-night sports leagues and more chaplain activities.
All new arrivals to duty in South Korea are instructed against prostitution and [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908), and the military is working with South Korean law enforcement agencies, he said.
NATO officials in July outlined new guidelines adopted to ensure alliance peacekeepers do not encourage sex trafficking gangs by seeking the services of women forced into prostitution.
Spy's post on the proposed rule to make it a crime for military personnel to have contact with a prostitute marks an complete turn around of Vietnam era policy in which the Pentagon actually promoted prostitution in Thailand for its servicemen. This rule obviously reflects Bush's attempt to "Christianize America." After its all said and done, there probably won't be many servicemen left to fight his selfish wars.
I wish the DoD good luck in trying enforce such a code, especially when it "promotes", or at least turns a blind eye to, homosexuality within its ranks. Seems like they would want to encourage heterosexualism. Barring prostitution may actually encourage a rise in homosexualty. For the Bush Administration which is worse, getting a blow job or fucking a hooker, or getting the same from another man? Seems like both are evil and a threat to our beloved nation.
Star Dreamer
09-27-04, 10:23
this is a follow-up to my previous post. the first half of the article below is somewhat meaningless since stars & stripes is published by the defense department, but the second half has some interesting info about changes to south korean law.
trying to eliminate the sex industry in south korea is like trying to eliminate breathing, but if their proposed crackdown has any effect, it makes you wonder how many more girls will find their way to work in u.s. amps.
*************
pacific stars and stripes
september 24, 2004
troops support, wonder about effectiveness of anti-prostitution rules
by joseph giordono and franklin fisher, stars and stripes
seoul - u.s. servicemembers in south korea largely support newly proposed rules to make pandering illegal under military law but also wonder about the effectiveness of military and government efforts to combat the sex trade and [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) overseas.
tuesday in washington, top pentagon officials announced their intention to add a specific anti-prostitution charge to the uniform code of military justice, making a conviction punishable by one year confinement and a dishonorable discharge.
wednesday at u.s. bases in south korea, reaction was swift.
"it kind of surprises me that there wasn't something specific about that in the ucmj before but i think this shows the [military] is not just saying 'stop doing it,' they're putting out a punishment that will make a lot of people think twice," said sgt. michael wright, of the 18th medical command.
"this would show they're really serious."
sitting at an outdoor cafe around the corner from itaewon's infamous "hooker hill" -- a red-light district just a stone's throw from the u.s. military headquarters at yongsan garrison -- another group of soldiers agreed.
"absolutely it makes sense," said spc. tim roberts, of 1st brigade, 2nd infantry division. "i don't know how many guys will actually have to get busted before it starts working, but it's gotta help cut down the problem."
staff sgt. kristie knappenberger, of the 303rd intelligence squadron at osan air base, thinks such an addition to the ucmj might be a good thing, especially if it helps curb servicemember involvement with prostitutes, including occasional marriages to women who work in bars, known as so-called "juicy girls."
"i don't see any problem with it," knappenberger said of the prospective change. "i don't think it would be a bad idea. if anything, it would be good...i know there's always been a big deal about the girls downtown -'juicies.' so it would help here and stateside."
"a lot of junior people get here and they get involved with that and it affects them not only here but at home. once they return home, financially, with their family life, if they do decide to get married to one of the girls they met, it carries over."
senior airman tom guess of the 51st logistics readiness squadron also thought it might be beneficial. and he saw nothing wrong with having the proposed change apply in countries in which prostitution might be legal.
"i think it's fair," said guess. "cause i mean, if you get caught doing it in the civilian world, i don't see why it would be different. if you go to saudi arabia you can't really drink there. you can drink in the states but you can't drink in saudi arabia."
military officials also promised a crackdown on civilian contractors not subject to the ucmj.
"nobody's saying soldiers don't go to hookers, but lots of times, it's the civilian guys who are out there on 'hooker hill' all the time," said one soldier. "you've got to crack down on both groups."
some soldiers questioned whether either the new u.s. military or south korean efforts would have any real effect on the sex trade. sgt. nicole webster, for example, thinks the demand always will outpace legal efforts.
"if that's what someone is looking for, you're not going to be able to stop them with more threats. they already know they'll get punished for it under existing rules but that doesn't seem to make some people think twice," she said.
one suggestion she had was for the military to make public the punishments levied under the existing codes. u.s. forces korea commander gen. leon j. laporte told the house armed services committee tuesday that military efforts have "resulted in the prosecution of more than 400 servicemembers for related offenses, such as curfew violation and trespassing posted off-limits locations."
but as webster and other soldiers pointed out, those sanctions largely are doled out through nonjudicial punishment, details of which the military does not release. any deterrent effect of such punishments usually does not reach beyond a small number of the soldiers' friends, the soldiers said.
"and if prostitution already is illegal in south korea," webster asked, "why would the new rules be more effective at preventing people from frequenting prostitutes?"
the proposed military changes coincide with a new set of south korean laws meant to crack down on the sex industry, which technically is illegal but in practice is an open, rampant and lucrative business. south korean officials say a major purpose of their new campaign, in addition to the new laws, is to more strictly enforce existing laws.
according to the gender equality ministry, more than 330,000 women worked in some 80,000 sex industry establishments in 2002, the last year figures were available.
all told, the ministry said, the sex industry in south korea, including legal entertainment associated with brothels, accounts for some $20 billion each year.
beginning wednesday, tougher anti-prostitution laws took effect in south korea, including one requiring a mandatory three-year prison sentence for anyone convicted of engaging in [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) for the sex trade. members of organized crime would get a minimum of five years.
another new law offers rewards of 20 million won (around $17,000) for information leading to the conviction of human traffickers. another provision lets the government confirep001e all proceeds and property earned through the illegal sex trade. an additional new wrinkle would differentiate legally between women involuntarily in the sex trade (who would be classified as victims) and those who are determined to voluntarily sell sex (who would be punished as criminals).
under a broader program, south korea's government has promised to shut down all of the country's estimated 70 red-light districts.
I was wondering if anybody's been following this story, http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~2414505,00.html, about a former call girl from Oakland, Calif., who put herself through Stanford Law School by turning high-dollar tricks. Even though she's not been arrested by the feds, they've seized cash from a safety deposit box and are trying to get about $61,000 from her in back taxes.
Butterfly44
10-11-04, 01:43
Fresh from Midnight Yahoo News:
Today's ref: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041010/ap_on_hi_te/china_porn_rewards_2
China Offers Rewards for Reporting Porn
2 hours, 46 minutes ago
Technology - AP
BEIJING - China's police ministry on Sunday handed out rewards of up to $240 to people who reported pornographic Web sites in a campaign to stamp out online smut, the government said.
Some 445 people have been arrested and 1,125 Web sites shut down with the help of public tips since July, the official Xinhua News Agency reported, citing the Ministry of Public Security.
The ministry handed out rewards of $60 to $240, Xinhua said, but it didn't say how many people received them.
China encourages Internet use for education and business but bans sexually oriented content on its own Web sites and tries to block access to foreign sites deemed pornographic or subversive.
The online crackdown is part of a sweeping official morality campaign launched this year on orders from communist leaders.
Television stations, video game makers and other suppliers of popular culture have been ordered to reduce or eliminate violent or sexually oriented content.
PsyberZombie
10-30-04, 00:19
Here's a Good Resource =
A List of the Ages of Consent for all around the World
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
PsyberZombie
11-06-04, 03:25
I've heard of a 'Bad Lay' on a Golf Course , but This is *Ridiculous* !!!
Three sentenced for golf course prostitution
Club officials, tourney organizer get 125 days of house arrest
The Associated Press
Updated: 1:58 p.m. ET Nov. 5, 2004 NORCO, Calif. - Two golf course managers and a tournament organizer were sentenced to house arrest for hosting two competitions featuring prostitutes and strippers stationed along the putting greens.
Superior Court Judge Christian Thierbach chided the three for their “immoral and illegal actions” at the so-called girlie tournaments in spring 2002.
More than a dozen prostitutes and strippers, including a 16-year-old girl, set up tents and advertised their services on boards, officials said. About 160 golfers paid $200 apiece to play, though some showed up without their clubs, officials said.
Sheriff’s deputies wearing camouflage raided the second tournament, detaining 90 golfers and 17 strippers and alleged prostitutes, along with golf course workers.
Event organizer Sandy Juarez, 39, was accused of providing the prostitutes. In a deal with prosecutors, she pleaded guilty to felony conspiracy to corrupt public morals and testified against Hidden Valley Golf Club general manager Jason Wood, 38, and his former assistant, Darren James Bollinger, 30. The pair pleaded guilty in July to the same charge.
All three were sentenced to 125 days of house arrest.
Two golfers have been convicted of engaging in prostitution, and the mother of the 16-year-old prostitute is charged with child endangerment and prostitution.
© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Source = http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6415869/
Hey PsyberZombie,
Some of the golfers may have showed up without any clubs, but they all came with their balls.
Rock
(sorry if that joke was terrible)
From The Observer (London) today.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1356104,00.html
Any suggestions on how you can establish whether a girl has been traffiked?
I am stuck in California for a while... I have been checking out the area I'm in via the WSG and other sites including search engines and I cannot for the life me find out what the sentences are (and fines) if you are caught by LE for soliciting. They have to sentence you, and I sure don't want to go through a long trial, so I just want to see what the minimum and maximum sentences are for solicitating a prostitute in California. I am near the SF Bay Area around Oakland for now.
Can anyone give me an idea? Plus I won't let them get my car... even if I had to park it 10 blocks away for an incall, I like getting a warm-up walk before diving into a chica ;)
I sure miss Mexico and the kinder, cuter chicas...
PsyberZombie
11-26-04, 14:39
El Mojigato =
California State Code § 653.23 (B) defines "Solicitation" quite broadly , and even ends with a "if it looks bad , it is"
Clause =
A person is guilty of Solicitation if s/he =
(3) Repeatedly engages or attempts to engage in conversation with
pedestrians or motorists to solicit, arrange, or facilitate an act of
prostitution
(4) Repeatedly stops or attempts to stop pedestrians or motorists
to solicit, arrange, or facilitate an act of prostitution
(5) Circles an area in a motor vehicle and repeatedly beckons to,
contacts, or attempts to contact or stop pedestrians or other
motorists to solicit, arrange, or facilitate an act of prostitution
(c) The list of circumstances set forth in subdivision (b) is not
exclusive. The circumstances set forth in subdivision (b) should be
considered particularly salient if they occur in an area that is
known for prostitution activity. Any other relevant circumstances
may be considered. Moreover, no one circumstance or combination of
circumstances is in itself determinative. A violation of subdivision
(a) shall be determined based on an evaluation of the particular
circumstances of each case.
The Statute defines an Offense as a Misdemeanor ; meaning a maximum penalty of Imprisonment
not more than a year &/or a fine not greater than $ 2000
Your bigger concern , though , is Oakland's Municipal Statutes that apply =
9.56.010 Nuisance vehicles.
Any vehicle used to solicit an act of prostitution, or to acquire or attempt to acquire any controlled substance, is declared a nuisance, and the vehicle shall be enjoined and abated as provided in this chapter. Any person or his or her servant, agent, or employee who owns, leases, conducts, or maintains any vehicle (hereinafter referred to as "the property"), used for any of the purposes or acts set forth in this section is guilty of a nuisance.
"enjoined and abated" means "seized and your ownership forfeited"
And even worse , 9.56.070 (F) makes this a CIVIL Seizure , which means even if you are ultimately acquitted of the Solicitation charge , they get to keep your car ; and even if you cop a plea to a lesser charge [ disorderly conduct is a typical plea bargain ] , they can keep it
And before you Perry Masons out there suggest it = this Statute , and others like it in other states and municipalities , have been challenged all the up to the SCOTUS ; and they *are* Constitutional , if you can believe it !!
Did anyone see this? In San Antonio, new regulations require strippers to wear their business license/permits while they dance. Here's the story link, http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Stripping%20Permits By the way Jackson, there's no category for strip clubs. How about one in the Special Interests section.
I am here in South Korea and the laws have affected much of the businesses around here. I read a couple of articles about what the military here is saying about the new laws. I personnally think that it is a bunch of bulshit, excuse my french. Yeah on camera and newspaper SGT john smith cannot say that he thinks that the laws need to be thrown away. He is a soldier. In private he is saying "Damn I need some of that asian pussy while I am here" Actions speak louder than words. The soldiers say they support it, however hundreds have gotten arrested for it since the new law. Does that sound like support? Not to me it doesn't. I just wish that the US would stop trying to worry about getting that win in the next election and let us decide on what we want to do and not politics decide.
Cops in Nashville arrest ad clerk from the Scene because he sold ads that might be promoting prostitution. Here's the story link, http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/04/12/62977238.shtml?Element_ID=62977238
Aww, it's the holiday season so that means it's time for the annual John sting. Watch your backs, guys. http://www.caller.com/ccct/local_news/article/0,1641,CCCT_811_3420585,00.html, Here's the story, but it might require you to register (for free) to the newspaper's Web site in order to read it. Basically, there was a John sting that netted four in mid-December, and a reporter from the Caller-Times acted as the fake pro in two of the busts. The editor has issued an apology for having the reporter get involved in the story.
Broward County pro turns in a man after noticing child porn on his computer, http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0107HookerTip07-ON.html.
Stop me if you've heard this before, but police are surprised to find a Colorado woman has been using the Internet to solicit for prostitution, http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4072566/detail.html.
Six strippers from Seminole County are busted for "breaking the plane" between customers' knees, and the Smoking Gun is there with the scoop on the arrest, http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0111051strippers1.html#121.
PsyberZombie
01-12-05, 12:39
Man , they got some UGLY with a capital UG! Hookers up there in St Paul , MN !!
[ although I'd give Christine or Alicia a roll ]
http://www.ci.stpaul.mn.us/depts/police/prostitution_photos_current.html
Daddy Rulz
01-12-05, 18:09
I thought "Merrill, Alicia Rae" was kinda fine. Wonder if she needs some donations for "legal fees".
ESCORTS & JOHNS: HOW TO AVOID STINGS OPERATIONS>> - m4w
Date: 2005-03-01, 1:17AM PST
~~~~~~Help Re-post this Information Several times a day! The anti-escorting forces spend a lot of time getting this info deleted. Your help is required to keep us all safe!~~~~~~~~~~~
Disregard the doomsayers who try to scare adults who wish to have consensual paid sex!
REMEMBER, GOVERNMENT HAS NO BUSINESS DICTATING MORALS OR WHAT HAPPENS BETWEEN TWO ADULTS HAVING CONSENSUAL SEX!
There are some basic rules to not getting caught and they are EASY!
First, RARELY have VICE done stings against JOHNS on the Internet! Their priorities are the blight and corresponding criminal behavior that surrounds STREET WALKERS and their clients who create problems in areas where SW's do thier work (The Stroll or Track).
ESCORTS; HOW TO STAY SAFE FROM STINGS:
In Sacramento, Internet-based stings have been primarily against escorts. Escorts should not do OUTCALLS unless they can get a reference from their John or unless its a repeat client. Vice will not do INCALL stings against escorts (they are not willing to risk the safety of officers in an environment that they do not control - i.e., your motel room. As far as they know, you could have 5 pimps in your room ready to rob and kill what they thought was a John!) To do an INCALL sting would require watching a specific room for hours to ensure that decoy officer going in knows exactly who is in the room. It takes too much money and staff time to run around town staking out single motel rooms to bust ONE hooker on minor charges that only give the girls 3 years probation! They (VICE) will make the girls come to their hotel room (Motel 6 on Howe Ave, Raddisson, Red Lion Inn, DoubleTree and other hotels have been used as Outcall Stings).
The ONLY exception to VICE doing INCALL stings are when escort agencies are using a single location (i.e., apartment, house, condo) and they have an opportunity to watch the house for activity. Escort agencies are primary target for LE because they can get a juicy FELONY Pimping and Pandering charge against the individual running the agency rather than the lesser minor chgarges of Solicitation and working as an Escort without a permit (Yes, you can and should secure a permit for work as a Escort! Escorting is a LEGAL business in the State of Calif- Prostitution is not). Vice will target agency girls first (Sacramento News & Review / Yellow Pages and Internet based Agencies). If they can get the girls who get busted to turn on the owner of the agency, its a good day for LE.
VICE will NEVER, EVER show an ID card to any civilian, if you are not sure ask for an ID (but if you are that close to asking a potential Vice cop for his civilian ID, you're probably already in trouble). JUST DON'T DO OUTCALLS!! If you MUST do OUTCALLS - do not do so without checking the references of the client. Its likely you are not the first escort he's ever seen. Find out who else he has seen. Make sure his reference has a posting and review history and find her ad, call her and ask her about your OUTCALL client. Mandatory References Checks for ALL incall and outcalls is the ULTIMATE safety net for escorts and will keep you out of jail; keep you from getting assulted or robbed; keep you away from pimps and cut way back on the number of flakes.
JOHNS/HOBBYIST/TRICKS How to Stay Safe From Stings:
On the RARE chance that VICE is doing stings specifically against men on off of the Internet (and in last 8 years - I have not heard of a single one), the solution is simple....
...Do NOT see new escorts without first checking them out (DO YOUR HOMEWORK!) Think with your brain - not your dick! There are many ESCORT review sites (Redbook and The************).. if the escort you want to see doesn't have a review history where other guys have testified to their looks and skills, PASS on her until YOU are sure! Seeing an escort just based upon her looks alone only shows your amature nature in this business and will at worse get you robbed or thrown in jail and at least get you a dead-lay not worth the money and time you spent! Do your homework and ask around!
OR,... at the very last min before you go up to see her in her hotel room, ask if she will come outside her hotel room or meet you in a nearby bar or restaurant (many legitimate escorts may not feel comfortable about that either). Female VICE decoy's will NEVER, EVER allow female decoys to leave the safe, monitored environment of the wired hotel room they use to bust one John after another and are protected by a number of armed officers!
This consensual adult behavior is long over-due to become legal! Don't let any of these crazy doomsayers scare you in participating in it.
Happy Hunting!
~~~~~~Help Re-post this Information Several times a day! The anti-escorting forces spend a lot of time getting this info deleted. Your help is required to keep us all safe!~~~~~~~~~~~
Oakland plans to start using billboards to shame johns, http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/02/25/BAG4DBGN951.DTL
Member #2718
03-20-05, 07:30
Isn't it amazing that when rates for violence and real crime are going up, LE is wasting money cracking down on concensual behavior that at worst is a nusiance. The real immoral act here is fraud perpetrated on the public that LE is doing something to earn their paychecks with their flashy billboards and newspaper photos that just waste more taxpayer money. The amazing thing is that LE thinks this publicity curbs activity. I use the information to help me more effectively target my mongering.
This is in regards to oosikman, Just when you thought you had heard every way to wast the judicial systems time, and our money. I really feel that prostitution should be legallized. It allows us a way to relieve a lot of stress and strains that are put on us by society. I can not begin to tell you how many times I really wanted to hurt somebody until I got some pu**y. Made me almost forget why I was mad. Law makers should try to spend a little more time fu**ing and less time on wasting our money.
I recently made a trip from the U.S. to the Philippine Islands. Upon my return into the U.S., I noticed going through U.S. Customs and seeing an agent hassling the person in front of me and demanding to see the photos in his digital camera. Question: Is it illegal to possess and transport pornographic material as long as everyone is consenting adults? The reason I ask is I have gotten conflicting information on this and I’m a little concerned about getting hassled like that in the future. I have noticed getting quizzed quite a bit ever since 911, especially coming in from the Philippines. Questions such as why you were there, who were you with, what did you do, etc.
CBGBConnisur
09-07-05, 19:15
If you come from non visa waiver countries, us customs will quiz you a bit, I live in Australia so I have not had such problems, usually they don't say a thing. They probably thought the guy in front of you had some kind of illicit pornography, places like the Phillipines and Thailand are notorious for attracting perverted sexual predators. I have never been to either country nor do I intend to visit, I prefer central and eastern europe.
Iron Felixus
10-01-05, 23:55
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050929/us_nm/prostitute_dc
Thu Sep 29, 6:45 PM ET
NEW YORK (Reuters) - A $2,000 an hour prostitute known as New York's No. 1 Escort pleaded not guilty on Thursday to charges of money laundering and prostitution that stemmed from her bragging in the media about her work.
ADVERTISEMENT
click here
Canadian Natalia McLennan, 25, sobbed uncontrollably in Manhattan Criminal Court after she was unable to post $50,000 bail and was taken away in handcuffs to jail.
The charges against McLennan came after she bragged in several interviews about her professional exploits, including posing provocatively for the cover of New York Magazine under the headline "N.Y.'s # 1 Escort Reveals All."
In that interview, she told the magazine she generated revenues of $1.5 million annually and kept 45 percent of that sum in return for having sex with high-roller clients of NY Confidential, a swanky Moroccan-themed brothel in Manhattan.
McLennan showed up for her arraignment dressed in a skimpy mini-skirt, a see-through blouse and four-inch spike heels, and told the court she had no idea she would remain in custody after the hearing. She wailed as she was taken from the courtroom.
She will remain in jail pending her next hearing on Monday. She faces up to 15 years in prison if convicted.
Was watching A and E last night when they had a pretty good show about street prostitution. A lot of the american ISG members complain about the US being a "sex prison" so I was really interested to see what's going on.
First off, lot's of the street walkers seem to have drug problems. Also, many of them operate under the control of a pimp. These are the girls that represent 4 out of 5 arrests for prostitution..... so the cops are really concentrating on the SW's.
In contrast, 4 of 5 pro's work INDOORS at massage parlors and escort agencies..... according to the show. Police actions against these places represent only 1 out of 5 arrests.
That means that 80% of arrests are being made against the 20% minority of girls who work on the street.
This led me to conclude that the cops don't really give a fuck about eliminating prostitution as an illegal activity. They just want to keep the street action down to a level that doesn't look too bad. Total fucking hypocrisy!
It's the same thing where I live. On the street, it'sHooker busts and sting ops against the Johns, while the indoor scene goes full steam ahead and nobody says a word.
Rock
Canada and and "communicating with a prostitute law": Section 213 of the Criminal Code states that communicating for the purpose of prostitution is a summary conviction offence. Summary offences are considered "less serious"
This law sound like a lot like the civil "intent to solicit law".
So the question is what defines who a prostitute is under Canadian law. For example is talking to a prostitute condsidered to fall under this law.
I fully agree! I think they can't really follow all call girls that are not visible, they would waste so much time to operate a sting instead of just picking up a girl from the street that looks like a hooker.
Was watching A and E last night when they had a pretty good show about street prostitution. A lot of the american ISG members complain about the US being a "sex prison" so I was really interested to see what's going on.
First off, lot's of the street walkers seem to have drug problems. Also, many of them operate under the control of a pimp. These are the girls that represent 4 out of 5 arrests for prostitution..... so the cops are really concentrating on the SW's.
In contrast, 4 of 5 pro's work INDOORS at massage parlors and escort agencies..... according to the show. Police actions against these places represent only 1 out of 5 arrests.
That means that 80% of arrests are being made against the 20% minority of girls who work on the street.
This led me to conclude that the cops don't really give a fuck about eliminating prostitution as an illegal activity. They just want to keep the street action down to a level that doesn't look too bad. Total fucking hypocrisy!
It's the same thing where I live. On the street, it'sHooker busts and sting ops against the Johns, while the indoor scene goes full steam ahead and nobody says a word.
Rock
Instead of pursuing those pore females, they shoud do some usefull policework. A 9/11 and those who might come are more important. During the day those hypocrites talk of morality and at night they blackmail them in to a free fuck. We have no law that forbids prostitution and we have no shooting in the schools. You have to have a damm good reason to have a gun. That's are kind of morality. To mutch bible, to many guns and bloody ignorance, that fucks up a country.
Bango Cheito
11-27-06, 06:58
the cops bust EVERYTHING, incall, outcall, SWs guys in vans full of girls driving around where you go in and pick one and they drop you off somewhere, stripclubs offering extras, massage parlors offering extras, underground parties, the whole shebang. They seriously mean to shut down sex for money for everybody in NYC who isn't filthy rich, and have come a long way towards doing it.
If you look at the reports in the NYC section and see how much it fell off in recent years, it is very telling. Of course, there are still SOME things going on, but nobody wants to post anything anymore. I am also personally convinced that there are lots of LE trolls on that board as well and have even notified Jackson once.
I am very interested in what the law says and how it is implemented. You can always have safe fun without getting yourself in trouble.
Read these:
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=546386#post546386
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=545479#post545479
When you consider the "public communication" aspect of the law it is really crafted to discourage street solicitation. The more aggressive uses of the law have seen it applied to hotel bars, your vehicle operating on a public street and other such places.communication btw also includes acts in furtherance as evidence of intent. I. E. You pick a street walker up in your car is an act of furtherance.
Canada and and "communicating with a prostitute law": Section 213 of the Criminal Code states that communicating for the purpose of prostitution is a summary conviction offence. Summary offences are considered "less serious"
This law sound like a lot like the civil "intent to solicit law"?
So the question is what defines who a prostitute is under canadian law. For example is talking to a prostitute condsidered to fall under this law?
John Pokes
11-21-07, 23:52
A lot of people seem to think that police, politicians and your friendly neighbourhood moralists all around the world actually want to stop prostitution. I wouldn't be so sure. Prostitution is illegal or more strongly regulated than any other industry in many parts of the world. But it still doesn't take Colombo to find a working lady in most areas. Look at who benefits from prostitution being illegal.
Bango Cheito
11-22-07, 09:21
You'd be SURPRISED at who little prostitution there is now in NYC. You'd really have to put in a Herculean effort if you came here not knowing the ropes and were looking to p4p. As a matter of fact I don't think you could do it if you were only coming for a short time.
And don't expect this site to help you either. There is a strong code of silence in effect for the few decent p4p opportunities that are still out there!
a lot of people seem to think that police, politicians and your friendly neighbourhood moralists all around the world actually want to stop prostitution. i wouldn't be so sure. prostitution is illegal or more strongly regulated than any other industry in many parts of the world. but it still doesn't take colombo to find a working lady in most areas. look at who benefits from prostitution being illegal.
i suspect that, like illegal drugs and prohibition, the high-end prostitutes are still working at full speed and paying off le to work unmolested. it is the low end providers and their patrons who are hurt by making prostitution illegal.
Starchild2012
03-11-08, 08:02
i suspect that, like illegal drugs and prohibition, the high-end prostitutes are still working at full speed and paying off le to work unmolested. it is the low end providers and their patrons who are hurt by making prostitution illegal.
are you nostradamus ?..man you were so right ...now we have clear picture :)
CBGBConnisur
03-12-08, 15:45
New York and the entire USA is a waste of time if you are looking for paid sex. The big thing about America is the hype of a blonde woman, like Pamela Anderson etc.(who is really Canadian), the reality is that most American women look nothing like Pamela and more like Roseanne Barr. The only decent action is in North America is in Canada, and that is pretty much in Quebec and in Vancouver. If you want to bang blondes go to Germany, FKK clubs are amazing, and even though the Euro is strong, its still a good value.
NYC started shutting down prostitution for everyone but the superrich since the 1990's when Giuliani cracked down on SWs and cleaned up Times Square, since then the only action you can get is through expensive escort and incall services which carefully screen customers to make sure they are not LE.
Lessons from the D.C. Madam Tragic Ending
Deborah Jeane Palfrey, the "D.C. Madam"
The good legal briefs, the terrible defense at trial and the Tragic Suicide
A history lesson about the waste of resources and lives over in private consenting adult sexwork
Outcall as in her service - legal in almost all the world except the U.S.
May 1, 2008 The Tragic Ending
Jeane Palfrey hangs herself on mother's property in Tampa, Suicide notes were found near the body, police say. Palfrey's 76-year-old mother, Blanche Palfrey, found her daughter hanged using a nylon rope from a metal beam on the ceiling of a storage shed outside her home,
One of Palfery's escort service employees was former University of Maryland, Baltimore County, professor Brandy Britton, who was arrested on prostitution charges in 2006. She committed suicide in January before she was scheduled to go to trial.
These deaths are so pointless resulting from victimless crimes against only the morality of certain religious groups that want to control our lives.
Summary from earlier reports
As I have extensively reported on, I had been in e-mail discussion with her civil attorney Palfrey lawyer Montgomery Blair Sibley.I read some of his motions which were excellent including using Lawrence vs Texas (see my articles at http://www.sexwork.com/legal/Lawrence_Index.html ) But her criminal attorney, Preston Burton at trial had in my view, a terribly lacking defense.
At trial her only defense was that she didn't know sex was going on with her escorts. I had suggested an aggressive defense using both Lawrence vs Texas and the fact that clients only paid for time not for sex and whatever happened during time in private with consenting adults with no money exchanged for sex, was not a crime.
I had discussed with prior lawyer what resulted in my article:
Is Paying for Time legal as long as not for sex?
Is it similar to how Restaurants avoid Liquor License laws?
At http://www.sexwork.com/legal/TimeNotSex.html
The trial was a total disaster with only the "she didn't know" defense used which prior escorts easily proved wrong and the defense rested from what I have read with no other defense. It was a slam dunk guilty verdict by the jury.
She was found guilty April 15 of money laundering, racketeering and mail fraud and faced a maximum 55-year prison term at her sentencing, which was scheduled for July 24.
Consolidation of my many reports is at http://www.sexwork.com/escorts/dcmadam.html
A lot of reading but a serious issue. Hopefully some of the ideas might be useful in a future case.
Dave in Phoenix
Promoting Intimacy and Positive Sexuality with honesty and integrity
http://www.sexwork.com
http://www.sexworkcanada.com
http://www.lovetouch.info
http://www.libchrist.com
One of the first things Mao did when coming to power was to put a ban on prostitution. Anyone who visits the big c can easily see for them self, that this is not enforced, what so ever. Conclusion: China officials knows all about it, but does nothing to correct it.
Thailand was the focus country a couple of years ago, and the point was to blame western country’s for sex-tourism. Today we see china, and the situation is extreme. Only one thing is for sure: The west is not to blame. This is an internal china deal.
How can this go on? The answer is simple: officials are gaining from this. There is no way in hell that places like the sauna at Shanghai hotel – an entire floor of a major hotel in central shanghai – can be run without party officials approvement.
Here´s the deal:
I think there is a good reason to be careful when on mongering in china. Ok, no news so far, but why? Ok, its illegal, busts do occur, but that is not the main reason. I think those busts are very bad for everyone. No, the main reason to be careful is the obvious that a thing that seems to be good to be true often is.
Anyone that stayed in china for some time knows that the authorities are quit scruple free. I think that the saunas are places were important people (from a party point of view) can be compromised. The classic east-block Romeo trick has put a lot of people in very difficult possisions. Ok for an average Joe like you and me, this might not be a problem, but if you have something to loose; think twice.
Lessons from the D.C. Madam Tragic Ending
Deborah Jeane Palfrey, the "D.C. Madam"
The good legal briefs, the terrible defense at trial and the Tragic Suicide
A history lesson about the waste of resources and lives over in private consenting adult sexwork
Outcall as in her service - legal in almost all the world except the U.S.
May 1, 2008 The Tragic Ending
Jeane Palfrey hangs herself on mother's property in Tampa, Suicide notes were found near the body, police say. Palfrey's 76-year-old mother, Blanche Palfrey, found her daughter hanged using a nylon rope from a metal beam on the ceiling of a storage shed outside her home,
One of Palfery's escort service employees was former University of Maryland, Baltimore County, professor Brandy Britton, who was arrested on prostitution charges in 2006. She committed suicide in January before she was scheduled to go to trial.
These deaths are so pointless resulting from victimless crimes against only the morality of certain religious groups that want to control our lives.
Summary from earlier reports
As I have extensively reported on, I had been in e-mail discussion with her civil attorney Palfrey lawyer Montgomery Blair Sibley.I read some of his motions which were excellent including using Lawrence vs Texas (see my articles at http://www.sexwork.com/legal/Lawrence_Index.html ) But her criminal attorney, Preston Burton at trial had in my view, a terribly lacking defense.
At trial her only defense was that she didn't know sex was going on with her escorts. I had suggested an aggressive defense using both Lawrence vs Texas and the fact that clients only paid for time not for sex and whatever happened during time in private with consenting adults with no money exchanged for sex, was not a crime.
I had discussed with prior lawyer what resulted in my article:
Is Paying for Time legal as long as not for sex?
Is it similar to how Restaurants avoid Liquor License laws?
At http://www.sexwork.com/legal/TimeNotSex.html
The trial was a total disaster with only the "she didn't know" defense used which prior escorts easily proved wrong and the defense rested from what I have read with no other defense. It was a slam dunk guilty verdict by the jury.
She was found guilty April 15 of money laundering, racketeering and mail fraud and faced a maximum 55-year prison term at her sentencing, which was scheduled for July 24.
Consolidation of my many reports is at http://www.sexwork.com/escorts/dcmadam.html
A lot of reading but a serious issue. Hopefully some of the ideas might be useful in a future case.
Dave in Phoenix
Promoting Intimacy and Positive Sexuality with honesty and integrity
http://www.sexwork.com
http://www.sexworkcanada.com
http://www.lovetouch.info
http://www.libchrist.comI wholeheartedly agree. Very well said.
Such a shame.
If you ever went to the Hotel Del Rey in San Jose, Costa Rica, then you know that in the main bar they had patches from customers on the wall. The wall behind the bar was covered in patches, and I remember the first time I went and saw patches from police departments from all over the United States. What hypocrites!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.4 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.