American Politics

[Jelly Donut]

And if you think if Al Gore was in office instead of George W, there would be no Iraq War, think again...

Good point. If you had been asked in 2000 which of the two - Gore or Bush - would be more likely to involve the US in a war in Iraq a lot of people probably would have said Gore, since Bush took positions which tended to be anti-internationalist and, of course, the Clinton/Gore administration had bombed Iraq at least a couple of times.

[CBGBConnisur]

the deutsche mark only accounted for about 1-2 percent of currency reserves even at its peak. the euro counts for 25 percent of world currency reserves(the us dollar is 65 percent and it used to be 85 percent in the late 90's) and that number is increasing steadily. japan never had the ability to surpass the us, that was 80's paranoia, japan is a country the size of california with less than half the population. china is a country larger than the us, with five times the population and the fastest growing economy on the planet, its currency is grossly undervalued(so a cheap currency can be a major advantage for an exporter at least), if the yuan was not artificially devalued, the chinese economy would be nearly 9 trillion us, its right now slightly larger than germany's in nominal terms. the european union is another major world contender, with 430 million people and a total economy that is worth 15 trillion us, its actually larger than the us economy, still only 12 countries use the euro, but more of the new states will adopt the currency in the near future. oil producing countries are also looking to sell oil for euros instead of dollars, that would have serious ramifications for the usa's ability to finance easy debt through petrodollars(some people think this was the real reason behind iraq as saddam sold oil for euros in one transaction). the yen and the mark were never credible competitors to the dollar but the euro is a real competitor, these days there is massive foreign buying of us companies, goods, real estate, might sound good but in reality it is a way of losing autonomy to foreign entities.
the federal reserve is also playing with fire, rapidly increasing the money supply and reducing interest rates to stimulate the economy, while this may speed up the economy in the short run, it will continue to put downward pressure on the dollar.
regardless, in the future the us will lose its independence to the global economy, that does not look good to me. the thing that made america great was that we were able to keep the world at a comfortable distance, depending upon ourselves. but as i said the us will still be a prosperous country but not the the sole economic power in the world, that status did earn us some advantages.

[Jelly Donut]

you started out making a historical claim "it's never happened before" and now you are saying what has happened before is not significant.

based on your reasoning, you could argue the us should dump it's position as the global currency of choice, since american growth has been lackluster since assuming that role. instead, we should take a lesson from the chinese playbook and work to keep the buck artificially low.






the deutsche mark only accounted for about 1-2 percent of currency reserves even at its peak. the euro counts for 25 percent of world currency reserves(the us dollar is 65 percent and it used to be 85 percent in the late 90's) and that number is increasing steadily. japan never had the ability to surpass the us, that was 80's paranoia, japan is a country the size of california with less than half the population. china is a country larger than the us, with five times the population and the fastest growing economy on the planet, its currency is grossly undervalued(so a cheap currency can be a major advantage for an exporter at least), if the yuan was not artificially devalued, the chinese economy would be nearly 9 trillion us, its right now slightly larger than germany's in nominal terms. the european union is another major world contender, with 430 million people and a total economy that is worth 15 trillion us, its actually larger than the us economy, still only 12 countries use the euro, but more of the new states will adopt the currency in the near future. oil producing countries are also looking to sell oil for euros instead of dollars, that would have serious ramifications for the usa's ability to finance easy debt through petrodollars(some people think this was the real reason behind iraq as saddam sold oil for euros in one transaction). the yen and the mark were never credible competitors to the dollar but the euro is a real competitor, these days there is massive foreign buying of us companies, goods, real estate, might sound good but in reality it is a way of losing autonomy to foreign entities.
the federal reserve is also playing with fire, rapidly increasing the money supply and reducing interest rates to stimulate the economy, while this may speed up the economy in the short run, it will continue to put downward pressure on the dollar.
regardless, in the future the us will lose its independence to the global economy, that does not look good to me. the thing that made america great was that we were able to keep the world at a comfortable distance, depending upon ourselves. but as i said the us will still be a prosperous country but not the the sole economic power in the world, that status did earn us some advantages.

[CBGBConnisur]

The Chinese playbook would not work well for America, we are a society that loves to consume, the Chinese like to produce, and I think with the Euro, this is the first genuine threat to American prosperity in history, I was wrong for assuming this recent devaluation of the Dollar did not happen before, thanks for the correction, but we have not seen another currency take up such a significant percent of world currency reserves since the British Pound in the 1960's, the Euro accounts for at least 25 percent of world currency reserves in a matter of only six years. For much of the time period that you mentioned the dollar fluctuations, the US Dollar was the dominant reserve currency and did not have a single major competitor, most of the other international currencies such as the Mark, Yen, and Pound accounted for no more than 1 to 2 percent of world reserves each. The fact that the Euro now accounts for one fourth of world central bank reserves is very significant, and that percent will continue to grow as more of the newer EU states begin to adopt the Euro. Oil producing nations like Russia and Venezuela sell their oil for Euros, I am predicting that OPECs stance regarding selling oil for Euros is a question of when and not if, when this happens the advantages of the petrodollar will be history.
The other interesting note is that during the 1970 to the early 1990's the US per capita GDP was 25 to 50 percent higher than the UK, Germany, France, and Japan. Today the UK just passed us, France and Germany are both coming close to passing us in per capita output as the Euro continues to appreciate in value.
The Euro is definitely having a significant effect on shifting the balance of the world economy, if people like Greenspan and Buffet are talking about it, I would definitely believe it.
One other note is that I keep hearing reporters on CNBC and CNN mention the ECB now in addition to the Federal Reserve in their economic commentary, that is also significant because they attribute serious significance to the ECB.

[DJ FourMoney]

Good point. If you had been asked in 2000 which of the two - Gore or Bush - would be more likely to involve the US in a war in Iraq a lot of people probably would have said Gore, since Bush took positions which tended to be anti-internationalist and, of course, the Clinton/Gore administration had bombed Iraq at least a couple of times.

Actually with no "Chicken Hawks" in the Executive Branch, you actually might have had an effort to rebuild Iraq after we bombed the shiet out of it. But honestly Gore had no designs of being a "War Time President" and we might not have gone into Iraq, but be knee deep in the bull over in Afghanistan which has gotten progressively worst as well.

In all honestly there's no way too tell and our Military Industrial Complex while evil in a sense is no where NEAR as evil as Multinational companies like Chevon, Exxon-Mobil, Shell and BP; that pay African nations to bump off their own people while they pollute the skyies and swindle people out of land, resources and money.

Exxon-Mobil pays the media MILLIONS to debunk any talk of global warming.

You have to give these morons some credit though, they have fought this war(s) with an all volunteer military force, while playing, "Hey look what's in my left hand and not what's in my right hand".

Said somebody said on a show I was watching on Link TV;

The internet is not the answer to get the message out of the crimes of this administration. Those that are intelligent enough to use Google effectively can find the truth, its everywhere. Its those too lazy to get up from the couch while watching American Idol and turn to Fox News to get their dose of "Fair and Balanced" news.

Those that listen to Micheal Savage, Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reily are seriously out to lunch.

Its "THOSE" people you need to get informed

Luckily they only make up about 30% of Americans and as long as we have high voter turnout (like we have had thus far) we can cancel those numb-nuts out.

[CBGBConnisur]

Um the military industrial complex is linked to multinational corporations like Mobil, Boeing, GM, etc. I remember during the first Gulf War, that General Motors said it made its most robust business was that done with the military. Anyhow the most likely scenario is going to be a Democrat in the White House and a very left wing one, either Obama or Clinton, maybe both. Europe is beginning to develop its own military industrial complex, so are China and Russia, the latter which is rebuilding into a superpower.

[DJ FourMoney]

Um the military industrial complex is linked to multinational corporations like Mobil, Boeing, GM, etc. I remember during the first Gulf War, that General Motors said it made its most robust business was that done with the military. Anyhow the most likely scenario is going to be a Democrat in the White House and a very left wing one, either Obama or Clinton, maybe both. Europe is beginning to develop its own military industrial complex, so are China and Russia, the latter which is rebuilding into a superpower.

Left? LOL

Okay if this primary run up is a "smoke and mirrors" show and the general is a continued show to those that can't make up their own minds, I think its possible and with a largely left leaning House and Senate that Obama or Clinton can be "pushed" into a Left leaning stance on National issues.

As I said on another site, I'd say 60% of America doesn't care what happens outside of the country, so as long as you give them Universial Health Care, Stablize the Economy and Rebuild the Country, that will distract them from the Imperializm that MIC wants to continue to run.

The Giled Age was crushed before and out of control corperations were reined in to so speak, so that will happen again. Wall Street which calls the shots can weather the lost of Medical Services and be happy to take payment from the Government to still be in control of Medical Services.

The question becomes who is paying for it??? US in the from of Taxes (Preferred) or up front payment to the establishment (Not preferred)

Hey CBGB we get Dateline (Aussie version) on Link TV

"Iraq Misadventure" - Classic

[CBGBConnisur]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/GustavSchwarzenegger.gif

The above is a link to a photo of Arnold Schwarzenegger's father. He looks like a muscular version of Adolf Hitler. And he was a Nazi as well, in fact he voluntarily joined the Nazi party.

[Jelly Donut]

O'DRAMA would win by a landslide if he were not Black. RACISM is everywhere-planet wide. Thats whats real.

The only American presidents to win the office for the first time in a "landslide" were Franklin Roosevelt and George Washington - every other "landslide" was a case where the President was looking to continue thier respective administrations. Americans don't vote for the new guy in a "landslide".

Moreover, all of the most recent US elections have been tight with the winner rarely carrying a majority of votes cast:

George W. Bush got 50.7% of the votes in 2004
George W. Bush got 47.9% of the votes in 2000 (where Gore got 48.4%)
Clinton won 49 percent of votes in 1996, 43 percent in 1992. Ross Perot played a significant role in both Clinton victories.

So, it's reasonable to think the 2008 election will be tight, regardless of the candidates or thier race. This is true even if you think the Republicans are hurting because of Bush unpopularity.

For instance, in the 1976 election Ford had pardoned the extremely unpopular Nixon and, of course, Carter was a conservative southern Democrat. It was still a very close election. Carter got 50.1 of votes cast.

This contrasts with 2008, where McCain has "deniability" with the Bush administration, while Obama is a liberal from Chicago. Left of the Clintons. Based on his politics, he's not a slam dunk candidate. There are certainly states where his race and name are likely to hurt him, I'd suggest that in many of those places, he would have a hard time based on his politics alone.

On the other hand, it's pretty clear race has helped him so far. Some Democrats have said the only thing that makes Obama viable is his race. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”

[Opebo]

On the other hand, it's pretty clear race has helped him so far. Some Democrats have said the only thing that makes Obama viable is his race. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”

Obama's race helped a little in the Primary, but, alas, in our benighted homeland, it hurts tremendously in the General Election.

[DJ FourMoney]

Obama's race helped a little in the Primary, but, alas, in our benighted homeland, it hurts tremendously in the General Election.

Yep but the interesting part will be just WHO is racist and who's not or who's not dumb enough to use race and vote against their own self-interest which happens all too often and that's because we run the largest propaganda machine on the planet.

The Internet has played its biggest roll thus far in this race, I don't think it will be at tight as you think. Dems are signing up to vote in record numbers, we've had record turnout thus far. Repubs can't all get behind McSain and I believe many will "sit this one out" and try to make a comeback in either 2012 or 2016 were they can put blame on the Dems for -

Not fixing the infastructure

Being a largely Green and Bio Fuel powered Nation by 2012

For not "winning" the war in Afghanistan

For not balancing the budget

Etc, Etc, Etc

But who know, maybe the stars will align again like they did for FDR and real change will happen. Then the Repugs can spend the next 20-30 years undoing what 16 years of Dem rule has done. I think American's finally UNDERSTAND what while Dems maybe Tax and Spend, at least they have something coming in. The Neo Cons cut taxes and spend..... That's a sure fire way to bankurpt a country, its working....

[Jelly Donut]

The National Organization for Women on Joe Biden.

http://www.now.org/press/08-08/08-23.html

Here's some additioned material on what NOW considers offensive. They are currently linked to it directly off the NOW website. It should give you an idea of NOW's perspective on things.

http://loveyourbody.nowfoundation.org/offensiveads.html

[CBGBConnisur]

The only American presidents to win the office for the first time in a "landslide" were Franklin Roosevelt and George Washington - every other "landslide" was a case where the President was looking to continue thier respective administrations. Americans don't vote for the new guy in a "landslide".

Moreover, all of the most recent US elections have been tight with the winner rarely carrying a majority of votes cast:

George W. Bush got 50.7% of the votes in 2004
George W. Bush got 47.9% of the votes in 2000 (where Gore got 48.4%)
Clinton won 49 percent of votes in 1996, 43 percent in 1992. Ross Perot played a significant role in both Clinton victories.

So, it's reasonable to think the 2008 election will be tight, regardless of the candidates or thier race. This is true even if you think the Republicans are hurting because of Bush unpopularity.

For instance, in the 1976 election Ford had pardoned the extremely unpopular Nixon and, of course, Carter was a conservative southern Democrat. It was still a very close election. Carter got 50.1 of votes cast.

This contrasts with 2008, where McCain has "deniability" with the Bush administration, while Obama is a liberal from Chicago. Left of the Clintons. Based on his politics, he's not a slam dunk candidate. There are certainly states where his race and name are likely to hurt him, I'd suggest that in many of those places, he would have a hard time based on his politics alone.

On the other hand, it's pretty clear race has helped him so far. Some Democrats have said the only thing that makes Obama viable is his race. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”

Clinton won by a decent margin in 1996. Obama might have trouble in certain battleground states. I think he can win Ohio and Michigan, probably take Virginia and New Hampshire. Michigan should be a lock due the economic situation over there.

Obama is a bit too lofty in his rhetoric, Biden is more of a straight talker, speaking about the issues that are really bothering Americans such as being able to pay the bills, making sure the kids have a real future, etc. Right now more Americans are worried about paying the bills rather than getting into conflicts in far flung regions of the world. So the advantage belongs to Obama.

Tax and spend actually works out better than cutting taxes for the rich spending it on fruitless wars like is being done now. Its also one of the underlying factors behind the decline in value of the US Dollar. If a more sound fiscal strategy is put in place by the next administration, the Dollar can recover, if not.... :(

[Jelly Donut]

I've been reading through the Democrat Platform, a bit of language like this...

"Demeaning portrayals of women cheapen our debates, dampen the dreams of our daughters"

What exactly do these words mean? What are the implications of giving people who use this kind of language national power? That is, are the Democrats considering outlawing "demeaning portrayals of women"? What exactly is a "demeaning portrayal of women"? It's pretty clear from my previous post what the National Organization for Women thinks is an "offensive" portrayal of women - it's anything that might prompt an erection.

Also, there's some language about the hitting the demand side of prostitution (that probably means you, by the way). Wonder how they are going to do that? You would think the party that gave us Eliot Spitzer could take a moment of self-reflection before renewing the war on men.

"a remarkably feminist document"

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=08&year=2008&base_name=draft_womens_issues_in_dem_pla

[Jelly Donut]

our benighted homeland
I like the expression "our benighted homeland", but it's not clear to me it applies to the United States. Here you've got a son of Kenya facing off against a beauty queen. More or less. The political poetry is nearly Peruvian or even Italian in ebuilence.


So the advantage belongs to Obama
Yes. I guess. I'm not good with predictions, I'm more about history. I worship Nemisis, the Greek goddess who screws people over by granting them thier wishes.

[Opebo]

I like the expression "our benighted homeland", but it's not clear to me it applies to the United States. Here you've got a son of Kenya facing off against a beauty queen. More or less. The political poetry is nearly Peruvian or even Italian in ebuilence.

Merely an entertainment for the serfs. The election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party.

[DJ FourMoney]

Clinton won by a decent margin in 1996. Obama might have trouble in certain battleground states. I think he can win Ohio and Michigan, probably take Virginia and New Hampshire. Michigan should be a lock due the economic situation over there.

Obama is a bit too lofty in his rhetoric, Biden is more of a straight talker, speaking about the issues that are really bothering Americans such as being able to pay the bills, making sure the kids have a real future, etc. Right now more Americans are worried about paying the bills rather than getting into conflicts in far flung regions of the world. So the advantage belongs to Obama.

Tax and spend actually works out better than cutting taxes for the rich spending it on fruitless wars like is being done now. Its also one of the underlying factors behind the decline in value of the US Dollar. If a more sound fiscal strategy is put in place by the next administration, the Dollar can recover, if not.... :(

Tax and Spend isn't true of course... They tell the lie often enough you think its true, it isn't. Its should be phased -

We Dems spend to make sure Americans have jobs in case you greedy assholes in the Conservative movement decide not to hire anybody. The truth is FDR spent money on large public works projects just to make sure jobs were available to people that wanted to work, yes it put the country in debt, but when you have more people working, prospering, you have more tax money coming in.

Contemporary Dems understand that...

Under Democratic rule we had more money in our coffers than anytime in history, were do you think Eisenhower got the money for the Korean War and The Interstate Highway system??? And even HE said beware of the "Industrial Military Complex"....

Conservatives spend all their time talking about the one or two free-loaders that would take advantage of governments benevolence and their sole debate is based around the 1% of America that would use the system to just be lazy.

This is the 2nd time they put our country in ruin....

Watch they'll come back in 10 or 12 years with some other idea to try and fool Americans that they have the better idea.

Business people aren't stupid, they welcome the tax cuts and government hand-outs and business welfare. However they know also that the government can't go bankrupt, that unhappy workers have less productivity and if they make less they can't spend money on the shiet we don't need.

But the social structure has changed enough that you now need to implement social programs similar to the ones you find in Social Democratic countries like Britain and Germany.

Universal Health Care for example will take employers off the hook. Big Pharma and Health Care providers just want to be apart of it and profit. But they abused the system, and like Obama said need to own up to their failed way of doing business. Rich people will find some another way to make money, there's no need to feel sorry for them and that's what the Conservatives have successfully done to average Americans.

We need sweeping social change and we just might get it this time. My goodness Truman wanted to push through Universal Health Care back during his tenure, this is not a new idea at all, Conservatives have always beat that back as being Communist. Well the only commies left are the Chinese and nobody would believe any nonsense you would have to say about China, so it will get done and its similar to Edward's plan.

Let's just say America's ideas of Imperialism isn't over quite yet, but we'll temper that with sweeping social change and the Conservatives won't be able to keep it from happening actually because the Americans that pay attention will hold them accountable and sweep their butts out of office if they obstruct the change we need.

My goodness its about time, roads are crumbling, bridges are falling, dams are cracked, we need Wind Power, a Solar subsidy program that would put millions of American roofs to work harvesting the sun's powerm, cutting down our use of coal and oil for home heating, power and cooling. At least 15-20 MILLION jobs over the next 8-10 years.

When people can stop worrying about their wallets, then they'll be more confortable when you want sweeping social changes.

We can pay down the national debt by just having more people moving up into a higher tax bracket, cutting back spending the miltary by say 20% and you could still re-tool our Army's with that, its still more than anybody else spends by 45%.... Allowing those that don't make as much to keep their money so they can buy goods and services thus make money from sales taxes, property taxes, etc, etc. The US has an income stream like a muthfucka, how come you think countries are so ready to loan us money? They know we can pay it back and then some, but the social climate has to be right, when Obama talks about "America's Promise" the business sector also sees "America's Promise" as an opportunity to make more money off America... It can't be dysfunctional for that to be possible.. Right now its dysfunctional

[Jelly Donut]

Merely an entertainment for the serfs. The election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party.
It is entertaining.


you greedy assholes
A principle concern a reader here would have with the Democrat party is it's interest in extending the power of Federal government over individuals. In simple terms, they do this by taking more of what you own and giving to someone who wants something for nothing. "I want to have kids while I'm still in high school and I want the government to provide a variety legal and programatic ways to make that easier".

[Opebo]

A principle concern a reader here would have with the Democrat party is it's interest in extending the power of Federal government over individuals. In simple terms, they do this by taking more of what you own and giving to someone who wants something for nothing. "I want to have kids while I'm still in high school and I want the government to provide a variety legal and programatic ways to make that easier".

Thanks for contributing the usual right-wing racist line. The only people in this world who get something for nothing are the owners, JD.

[Jelly Donut]

thanks for contributing the usual right-wing racist line.
before i started the chatter here, no one had posted anything to this thread since this past march. so, in the sense that i've given you some reason to post, some reason to get your blood up - you are welcome.

though i'm not really sure where the "racist" comes from. to bring you up-to-speed, the most recent notable case of high school girls making a 'pact' to get pregnant was in gloucester, massachusetts. as far as i know, all the girls involved were white. i know a couple of white girls who game the system, juggling boyfriends and pumping out kids. it did not occur to me that what i was saying had anything to do with race at all. so, if you think what i said is racist, that's more about you, not about me.

but, yeah, it's conservative thinking. i would be very surprised if you don't believe in ownership on some level - are you suggesting a person should not even have self-ownership? that everything belongs to the community?


the only people in this world who get something for nothing are the owners, jd.
i guess i agree. for instance, i earned 73 cents today in my prosper.com account. in theory, that's money i got "for nothing" lending it out to various people who need it. of course, i did work for the money i was lending out and earning that 73 cents meant taking on some risk. it surprises me how much money it takes to earn 73 cents a day. you have to work hard to get something for nothing.

it surprises me that american government generally taxes savings like this more than, say, purchasing comic books or junk food.

a lot of people own things in the united states. many people own homes (far more today than 10 years ago) and many people are invested in financial markets. and, generally, these are the people who vote. the politics reflect this. so, did not disagree with you - "the election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party". it's just the "owning class" is a big thing in the united states, a lot of people own stuff.

[DJ FourMoney]

before i started the chatter here, no one had posted anything to this thread since this past march. so, in the sense that i've given you some reason to post, some reason to get your blood up - you are welcome.

though i'm not really sure where the "racist" comes from. to bring you up-to-speed, the most recent notable case of high school girls making a 'pact' to get pregnant was in gloucester, massachusetts. as far as i know, all the girls involved were white. i know a couple of white girls who game the system, juggling boyfriends and pumping out kids. it did not occur to me that what i was saying had anything to do with race at all. so, if you think what i said is racist, that's more about you, not about me.

but, yeah, it's conservative thinking. i would be very surprised if you don't believe in ownership on some level - are you suggesting a person should not even have self-ownership? that everything belongs to the community?


i guess i agree. for instance, i earned 73 cents today in my prosper.com account. in theory, that's money i got "for nothing" lending it out to various people who need it. of course, i did work for the money i was lending out and earning that 73 cents meant taking on some risk. it surprises me how much money it takes to earn 73 cents a day. you have to work hard to get something for nothing.

it surprises me that american government generally taxes savings like this more than, say, purchasing comic books or junk food.

a lot of people own things in the united states. many people own homes (far more today than 10 years ago) and many people are invested in financial markets. and, generally, these are the people who vote. the politics reflect this. so, did not disagree with you - "the election is always won by the owning class - the only real constituent for either party". it's just the "owning class" is a big thing in the united states, a lot of people own stuff.

its the glided age part 2, as to ownage of "stuff" one man in a cnbc doc about how the rich spend there money can't remember how many homes he had, it wasn't mcsain either.

said man got rich of the start of the sub prime lending.... hmmm

i guess that goes with the "right place at the right time" edict

this time however, there is hope from the "poor" side of america and you'll see 70% voter turn out and that's high or record breaking in this country.

don't believe the poles, its obama's to loose and he's not loosing, sarah palin is going to be made the escape goat here, she'll go back to juno and nobody we'll even know she was here.

the "owning" class may control overall what happens, but us "nobodys" will have something to say nov 4th and that's not to say obama doesn't owe big business any favors for putting up the huge sums of money. we don't see the ads in california, its a confirmed blue state, no reason too. but in purple states and confirmed red states he needs to carry, that's where you'll see all the tactics played out.

after this, i'll still pay attention, i always have and mostly because i find it dayum interesting (as the rest of the world does) and quite amazing, that we as "americans" manage to speak out of both sides of our mouths at the same time... ie - hypocrates!

[Naked Gunz]

Am ready to puke while watching this RNC babble.

[MeLuvULongTime]

Gentlemen,

When the founders wrote the Dec. Of Ind. Which we sent to King of the limeys, George, we declared our natural right to "life, liberty, and the "pursuit of happiness. "" Some of the more "conservative" founders wanted to replace "pursuit of happiness" with "property. " The founders wisely rejected "property. " My point is this, property is not what America is about to me. It is the freedom to do what makes one happy without hurting another citizen. So while all the right-wingers cry about taxation, it is the Freedom to do what I like without some psuedoreligous / fundementalist / hypocrite / corporateapologist / warmonger trying to force me to live as "God" tell them we should that I value. Hell I donot even know what the hell started this rant, but I watched some of the Repugs convention and got sick.

Meluvulongtime

[Jelly Donut]

"The measure also makes it a crime for a U.S. citizen or permanent resident traveling in foreign commerce to engage, or attempt to engage, in illicit sexual conduct, even though the individual did not travel with the intent of engaging in these acts"

http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=321&Itemid=61

Congresswoman Maloney represents the 14th district, New York. She is a Democrat and is not working for your liberty or your happiness.

[Punter 127]

"The measure also makes it a crime for a U.S. citizen or permanent resident traveling in foreign commerce to engage, or attempt to engage, in illicit sexual conduct, even though the individual did not travel with the intent of engaging in these acts"

http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=321&Itemid=61

Congresswoman Maloney represents the 14th district, New York. She is a Democrat and is not working for your liberty or your happiness. What? You mean it’s not just the religious conservative rightwing that’s against prostitution?

Next you'll be telling me that organization like the” National Organization of Woman” is against a woman’s right to choose what she does with her body, or at least when it comes to prostitution?

Hmmmmm....The “National Organization of Woman” is supporting “BO” (I think), you don’t suppose old “H” has made any promises to any of these groups do you?

[Jelly Donut]

What? You mean it’s not just the religious conservative rightwing that’s against prostitution?

Right. The reality is the Democratic platform is specific in targeting the "demand" side of prostitution and it seems to me that some of the folks who post here don't understand the full implications of that language.

[Jelly Donut]

Some of the more "conservative" founders wanted to replace "pursuit of happiness" with "property. " The founders wisely rejected "property. "

Of course, on your larger point, I agree with you. You are a very clear-headed person. A good life is more about chasing dreams and being happy.

But as a matter of government, property is important. Ideas about property are very important. For instance, in the United States, you own yourself.

This was an idea not fully realized by the founders. Some of them were on the right track, but as you know many of them owned other people. These radical ideas about property were only undone with the 13th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution (for which you can thank Republicans). The guy who came up with the "life, liberty, property" idea was an English philosopher who never owned slaves and was not in Philadelphia in 1776.

In sharp contrast, Jefferson, slaveholder and author of the Declaration, had hypocritical views on "property". Just because he adopted the powerful language "pursuit of happiness" didn't mean anything to regular people at Monticello. A cynical person might suggest he was avoiding the subject of self-ownership. Anyway, he talked an excellent game, but didn't walk the walk. Jefferson is often pointed to as one of the founding figures of the Democratic Party. So, I'd encourage you to be more thoughtful when you make generalizations about "conservatives".

[Warbucks]

I hope this is a joke because we all know how the average republican feels about the black youth. I would hate to see ole Johnny boy have a heart attack…


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VELIG92GDXw

[DJ FourMoney]

I hope this is a joke because we all know how the average republican feels about the black youth. I would hate to see ole Johnny boy have a heart attack…


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VELIG92GDXw

Its a joke, its not true, but funny...

Bristol isn't bad looking, has big ole bitties and only 17.... US Magazine believes Trig in her child, she was holding him most of the time, HMMMMM.

If I was old boyfriend, I would be finding a way to get the hell away from that family after all this nonsense dies, he looks like a dear caught in headlights, has had no intention of marrying Bristol...

[Warbucks]

The Republican Party is so full of shit. They criticize Barack Obama for saying he would authorize US forces to go into Pakistan without Paks consent after Al Qaeda but then what does dictator Bush do? Does the same thing well got damn.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/washington/11policy.html?ex=1378872000&en=bcb45afd964f57c7&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

[Jelly Donut]

They criticize Barack Obama for saying he would authorize US forces to go into Pakistan without Paks consent after Al Qaeda but then what does dictator Bush do?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/11/washington/11policy.html?ex=1378872000&en=bcb45afd964f57c7&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
Obama called for this back in August 2007. At the time, Obama was talking tough after having promised to meet unconditionally with heads of various countries which support terrorism in July 2007.

Of course, the United States had considered raids into Pakistan well before 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/washington/08intel.html

However, since August 2007 we've seen the assassination of Benazir Bhutto in December 2007 and the removal Pervez Musharraf as President of Pakistan. So things are different. I can't say I'm an expert on Pakistan, but it seems pretty clear the United States is circumstancing for the new President of Pakistan to "cave" to American pressure and increase Pakistani efforts against Al Queda in northern Pakistan.

I'd like to think the next President will be able to juggle these kinds of things regardless of party label.

[Jelly Donut]

"Ashley Alexandra Dupré, in the meantime, needs to be treated as a VICTIM! "
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/a-call-girls-story/

You could say the same thing about our contemporary American writers. It's a damn shame about David Foster Wallace and Iris Chang. Victims. Of something. I'm sure. Maybe we should put an end to writing or, at least, trafficking in books.

Certainly whoever came up with this phrase below has something wrong with them, although I don't think the double-speak is an accident:

"[CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) is modern-day slavery through labor or commercial sexual exploitation, and does not require transportation to occur, though transportation may be involved."

http://www.polarisproject.org/

Apparently the vision is to charge people with [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) when no 'victim' has been moved.

[Warbucks]

while i am in no way an advocate for oj he has put himself in bad positions of late but and all white jury and on top of that most of the jury admitted that they were against his murder verdict. this is not a jury of his peers forgive me for saying this but i don’t think people of opposite race should judge a person or at least make it half and half race wise. i am sorry but i wouldn’t trust all white jury or all asian jury they are not my peers….

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080912/en_afp/entertainmentuscrimetrialsimpson

[Dickhead]

On OJ, I don't know about half and half race-wise since the last time I checked blacks were way less than half the population of the US, Nevada, or Las Vegas but that bothered me as well.

On the Trig Palin thing, Down's Syndrome is clearly associated with older mothers and not younger ones so I doubt Trig is the daughter's baby. Wikipedia, a convenient if not always reliable source, says:

"Maternal age influences the chances of conceiving a baby with Down syndrome. At maternal age 20 to 24, the probability is one in 1562; at age 35 to 39 the probability is one in 214, and above age 45 the probability is one in 19. Although the probability increases with maternal age, 80% of children with Down syndrome are born to women under the age of 35, reflecting the overall fertility of that age group. Recent data also suggest that paternal age, especially beyond 42, also increases the risk of Down Syndrome manifesting in pregnancies in older mothers."

[Warbucks]

On OJ, I don't know about half and half race-wise since the last time I checked blacks were way less than half the population of the US, Nevada, or Las Vegas but that bothered me as well.



According to your logic if and only if half of the US pop was black then the jury should be half black if that’s the case then 13 percent of the US pop is black so 13 percent of 12 is roughly 1.5 rounded off would be two people. Ok given that AmeriKKKa couldn’t give him that. History has proved when the racial makeup of the jury goes against the defendant they are going to hang….

[Rubber Nursey]

Apparently the vision is to charge people with [CodeWord908] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908) when no 'victim' has been moved.
That's exactly right. Better still, the 'victim' doesn't even have to be proven to be a 'victim'.

After three years and millions of taxpayer dollars being poured into anti-trafficking efforts, the Australian Federal Police were still unable to secure one single conviction of trafficking and/or sex slavery. The problem was, the darn 'victims' kept refusing to play ball and admit they were victims. In fact, most of poor, misguided souls claimed they'd travelled to Australia to work in our brothels BY CHOICE! The United States was unimpressed and accused Australia of not doing enough to protect these poor women from themselves.

So they changed the law, to make the issue of consent irrelevant. Now it doesn't matter whether you consented to coming to Australia or consented to working as a sex worker when you got here. If you come here from a developing country and you work in a brothel, a crime has taken place. Full stop. Unfknbelievable.

[Rubber Nursey]

Also, there's some language about the hitting the demand side of prostitution (that probably means you, by the way). Wonder how they are going to do that? You would think the party that gave us Eliot Spitzer could take a moment of self-reflection before renewing the war on men.
The campaign for the 'Swedish Model' - criminalising clients in the name of 'protecting' sex workers - isn't just a war on men. It's a war on wh*res as well.

[Jelly Donut]

Unfknbelievable.
It's going to be interesting to see what comes of the "Natalie Dylan" tempest. My understanding is she lives in California and is self-trafficking to Nevada in order to "sell her virginity". While prostitution may be legal in parts of Nevada, as we all should know by now, she will be violating the Mann Act if she crosses state lines for the purpose of prostitution. It was estabilished early in the history of that law, that the "victim" could also be the perpetrator.

"Suppose, for instance that a professional prostitute, as well able to look out for herself as was the man, should suggest and carry out the journey within the act of 1910 in the hope of blackmailing the man, and should buy the railroad tickets, or should pay the fare..."

I can't imagine this has escaped the attention of authorities. Think about the reaction if she pulls it off and all America's virgins started doing the math. Anyway, the dude that travels to Nevada for the purpose of having sex with her is opening himself up the same situation Eliot Spitzer was placed in earlier this year.

"Spitzer Has Sinned, But It’s Our Sex Obsession That’s Criminal "

http://www.forward.com/articles/12885/

[DJ FourMoney]

On OJ, I don't know about half and half race-wise since the last time I checked blacks were way less than half the population of the US, Nevada, or Las Vegas but that bothered me as well.

On the Trig Palin thing, Down's Syndrome is clearly associated with older mothers and not younger ones so I doubt Trig is the daughter's baby. Wikipedia, a convenient if not always reliable source, says:

"Maternal age influences the chances of conceiving a baby with Down syndrome. At maternal age 20 to 24, the probability is one in 1562; at age 35 to 39 the probability is one in 214, and above age 45 the probability is one in 19. Although the probability increases with maternal age, 80% of children with Down syndrome are born to women under the age of 35, reflecting the overall fertility of that age group. Recent data also suggest that paternal age, especially beyond 42, also increases the risk of Down Syndrome manifesting in pregnancies in older mothers."

Well that MAY be true, however. Tina Fey, I mean Sarah Palin must not have much control over Bristol if she's PREGNANT and in that sense, AK is the Meth capitol of the country along with being the incense capital of the country.

Ding, Ding, Ding

I will stick with the rumors that might be true -

Palin has cheated on her husband - In The National Inq

She put Wasila 22 MILLION in debt, for a town of just about $6K - TRUE

If Trig is her baby, she a true dumb ass passing up Neonatal care in Houston, then flying to Arckorage, ignoring the NeoNatal Care center there and then going to Wasila to have your baby??? WTF???

80% popularity is FALSE

She's a LIAR - TRUE

Tina Fey hit the nail on the head on SNL - True

She's a morron - "I can see Russia from my backyard...."

[Warbucks]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson

An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.

[DJ FourMoney]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson

An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.

Yep and I'm trying to leave....

The law is unfair for people of color and its nothing new, it won't change anytime soon, its not even a subject in the undercurrent. It is in the Green Party circles but who listens to Cynthia McKinney????

We'll see what happens over the next few months, this Country is going to hell in a hand basket. Still blaming minorities for the sub prime problem, dragging down the economy, when it was DING you guessed it who controls the banks, the loan companies, the brokers and the stock market.

Uh, my head is hurting. I'm not getting laid, I want to make sure even though Obama is not the complete answer unless we push him (we can look what happen last week). I keep looking at Bride.ru... lol

I need to get outta here and find my woman...

[CBGBConnisur]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson

An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.

There was a Pakistani guy in Australia who went to Pakistan and hung out at a terrorist training camp but decided he would serve jihad better as a doctor, went back, Aussie immigration found training manuals in his luggage, he was accused of terrorism, then he was left completely off the hook. He lives free as a bird in Sydney Australia, thats how much more liberal the justice system in Australia is compared to the US, this same person if he was in the US would be locked up in Supermax or Gitmo in less than a New York minute. Even if Obama wins which is highly likely barring any kind of big surprise in the next couple of weeks, I think people of color will always be treated unfairly, and adding to the difficulty is that you have minorities who are complete white ass kissers in America, particularly in the newsmedia.

People in America are brushing aside the Wall Street crisis, the reality is that all but the superwealthy in America are about to be screwed over big time, in fact this is the final straw in the hay, and America's day as an economic superpower will now come to an end with economic leadership of the world going East to the Pacific region and maybe somewhat to Europe, but its clear that the true beginning of an Asian century is now here. Despite all the talk of economic meltdown in the US and UK, China is set to continue its lightning fast growth, other Asian nations are also growing, even Japan which was in a 20 year recession is now reawakening and seeing new markets in Asia and Europe for its wares.

[Doctor_Skank]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_re_us/oj_simpson

An all white jury for the most racially hated man in all of American history.
Wow. I am never moving back to the States....That whole trial and jury selection was ridiculous. I mean OJ put himself in that position but damn.Will be glad to see OJ locked up, period.

Squeeze the Juice. He's a murderer and a complete moron to boot.

[DirkDingy]

if you can prove or disprove your case in the US court of law. these two things are not mutually inclusive.

of course OJ snapped and killed his x and her boyfriend as they slept together in the residence that he paid for.

but the prosecution was out lawyered by oj's defense team. they didn't prove their case and the jury reached a correct verdict.

[Warbucks]

Will be glad to see OJ locked up, period.

Squeeze the Juice. He's a murderer and a complete moron to boot.

...then he deserves to go to jail. What I am "tripping" on is that all white jury bullshit. If people believe that was not a set up then I got some beach front property in the Antarctica for sale.

[Doctor_Skank]

...then he deserves to go to jail. What I am "tripping" on is that all white jury bullshit. If people believe that was not a set up then I got some beach front property in the Antarctica for sale.OJ got off the first time because of his race and the fact that following the Rodney King fiasco, LA was afraid of a race riot upon his conviction. Glad to see him get his come-uppance.

[George90]

OJ got off the first time because of his race and the fact that following the Rodney King fiasco, LA was afraid of a race riot upon his conviction. Glad to see him get his come-uppance.

It is these types of remarks that convince me that OJ was convicted of killing Nicole Brown, rather than of the armed robbery of dealers possessing items that belonged to him.

[DirkDingy]

Orenthal should have taken his NFL pension and relocated to Brazil where he would have lived out the remainder of his life in peace surrounded by beautiful women.

[Doctor_Skank]

It is these types of remarks that convince me that OJ was convicted of killing Nicole Brown, rather than of the armed robbery of dealers possessing items that belonged to him.Maybe... I wasn't on the jury.

[Warbucks]

....No Black man in America should be tried by an all-white jury. I am sorry but I think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the Black guy. If he is guilty then OK but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. My mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. That money can’t get 20 years of his life back. His jury was all-white.

I don’t care if I get flamed for this next statement but I think Non-Blacks are inclined to assume Blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. In my travels witnessed too much racism against Blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.

[DJ FourMoney]

....No Black man in America should be tried by an all-white jury. I am sorry but I think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the Black guy. If he is guilty then OK but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. My mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. That money can’t get 20 years of his life back. His jury was all-white.

I don’t care if I get flamed for this next statement but I think Non-Blacks are inclined to assume Blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. In my travels witnessed too much racism against Blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.

+1

Though I don't believe Doc isn't one of those, he just doesn't believe its possible that OJ might have been there to kill Nicole and Goldman but didn't actually KILL them.

They never found the murder weapon. Furman killed the case by being a racist idiot and LAPD has a trigger happy reputation anyway those things didn't help.

If the jury helped OJ because he was Black, so WHAT! Because if that was the case it doesn't explain why Blacks are more likely to do jail time in there life than than Whites in America, its no accident.

There are plenty of good documentaries to watch about how UNFAIR our court system is to not only Blacks, but Latinos and Poor Whites.

OJ put himself in a position to see jail time. I agree, he should have LEFT America.

Roman Polanski so they say banged a 13 year old girl and fled to France, is now a French Citizen and can't be extradited back to the US, tisk, tisk...

He could have lived in Europe banged all the white women he wanted, he is the "Juice" after all and women are stupid they don't seem to mind if your criminal at all, which is highly interesting...

[Looking For Eden]

....No Black man in America should be tried by an all-white jury. I am sorry but I think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the Black guy. If he is guilty then OK but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. My mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. That money can’t get 20 years of his life back. His jury was all-white.

I don’t care if I get flamed for this next statement but I think Non-Blacks are inclined to assume Blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. In my travels witnessed too much racism against Blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.

Dude every thread I read you on,you are griping about race. It is my contention that you are a racist. That is all you talk about. The Thailand threads, etc. YOU SIR ARE THE RACIST!!! OJ should be in jail for life if not executed!!!!

[DirkDingy]

....no black man in america should be tried by an all-white jury. i am sorry but i think time and time again this has proved to be detrimental to the black guy. if he is guilty then ok but you know as of late they have been finding a lot of guys innocent after 20 years behind bars. my mother has a childhood friend who did 20 then was rewarded $5million after he was cleared. that money can’t get 20 years of his life back. his jury was all-white.

i don’t care if i get flamed for this next statement but i think non-blacks are inclined to assume blacks are guilty regardless of the evidence. in my travels witnessed too much racism against blacks to trust any race of people other then the original.


i taught history in the hood while i was waiting for my clearance for a le job and when my students ecoched sentiments to yours i always provided them with this panacea to their situation: do not do things which are punishable by incaraceration and do not associate with those that do.

simple as that.

justice in america is more about the quality of counsel than anything else...see oj verdict 1 for a prime example of this....

re false convictions:

a classmate of mine worked with barry sheck's innocence project and the fact is that most of the dudes later exonerated were career criminals who had been playing in the criminal justice system for too long...ultimately, they lost a bet. they may have very well indeed been innocent of the crimes that they were put away for but it's highly likely that they walked for many more infractions for which they were not caught or convicted of.

police don't really set up innocent people....although i do believe that a certain level of force is often employed in arrests that may not be required...but this is not really a race issue as the local le on the task force i worked on were a little rough with everyone.

one of the many reasons why i didn't last long was that i never really was enamored with the busting down doors and manhandling people aspect of the job...i thought the work would me much more cerebral.

of course, i think that before the 80s the situation was worse

about the only thing that a brotha will be surely shit outta luck is if he's in the deep south and messing with intoxicated **** white girls.

that's a no no.

[Warbucks]

dude every thread i read you on,you are griping about race. it is my contention that you are a racist. that is all you talk about. the thailand threads, etc. you sir are the racist!!! oj should be in jail for life if not executed!!!!

i will use the typical white guy defense when they are called a racist. "hey i have (black) white friends." :d the last few posts i dropped were (thailand) in the "thailand racism against foreigners thread." what the hell are we suppose to be discussing there baseball?

please enlighten me as the other threads i have made racist comments.

your personal attacks are groundless and baseless!

oj was found not guilty in his first trial end of story. in this one he was judged by a jury that was prejudice and were not his peers. the way you feel about oj is typical of your brethren. i think george bush punk ass should be in jail for life but hey who is keeping count?

thanks for stopping by.

[Doctor_Skank]

i will use the typical white guy defense when they are called a racist. "hey i have (black) white friends." :d oj was found not guilty in his first trial end of story. in this one he was judged by a jury that was prejudice and were not his peers. the way you feel about oj is typical of your brethren. i think george bush punk ass should be in jail for life but hey who is keeping count?

thanks for stopping by.and you think oj is innocent of his current crime, or are you just upset that poor oj is getting reamed by the man? and your feelings aren't racially-motivated? what if it was joe montana?

i'm hardly a staunch defender of the american legal system, as there have been enough examples of where it is unfair. for example marion jones served time for her doping crimes. do you think the same would happen to mark mcgwire? who knows.

nonetheless, why not be happy that oj is behind bars. he's a criminal... and now he's even a convicted one.

[Warbucks]

and you think oj is innocent of his current crime, or are you just upset that poor oj is getting reamed by the man? and your feelings aren't racially-motivated? what if it was joe montana?

i'm hardly a staunch defender of the american legal system, as there have been enough examples of where it is unfair. for example marion jones served time for her doping crimes. do you think the same would happen to mark mcgwire? who knows.

nonetheless, why not be happy that oj is behind bars. he's a criminal... and now he's even a convicted one.

i think he was guilty as all hell. it was not like he was robbing a bank or your local liquor store. he went to retrieve things that were his to begin with and as i said he put himself in this position. i said it once and i am saying it again i have an issue with the all-white jury.

it was still armed robbery and he should be in jail for it as anyone. i don't think no one should be judged by jury opposite of his race. if joe montana was on trial it should not be a bunch of daddy warbucks sitting on the bench. can i relate to joe? is he my peer? would i be inclined to really listen to the evidence presented? by joe being not what i am would i be inclined to not give a damn if he rots in prison?

[Doctor_Skank]

can i relate to joe? is he my peer? would i be inclined to really listen to the evidence presented? by joe being not what i am would i be inclined to not give a damn if he rots in prison?so you are promoting segregation?

black juries for black people and white juries for white?

what about latinos and asians?

and what is a peer? oj's peers are overpaid, egotistic, often above-the-law athletes. should oj be judged by the university of miami football team? i'm sure they'd find him innocent and then hit the strip clubs together, maybe [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) somebody along the way or beating up the bouncer.

[David68]

OJ got off the first time because of his race and the fact that following the Rodney King fiasco, LA was afraid of a race riot upon his conviction. Glad to see him get his come-uppance.OJ got off the first time because he had the best lawyers in America and he was prosecuted by 2 bumbling attornies who went on to become rich due to their ineptitude.

Second, I think a lot of White Americans got pissed at Black Americans because they felt people were cheering because OJ got away with a crime. I did not feel this way and many of my Black friends didn't either. I don't mean to sound crude but I didn't know or really care about the 2 victims. I wanted to see if a rich Black man could manipulate the judicial system the same way rich White men have been able to. So the first OJ verdict actually told me to go put some money in the bank because that levels the playing field. So I can say without remorse that I was happy for the first OJ verdict because it exposed what actually runs our judicial system and now I know the rules. Any rich person can get away with a crime! But God help you if you are poor.

Now, coming from a Black man. Why didn't OJ just disappear? Why was his big fucking head always on the news? What the fuck was up with "If I did it"?

Just my 2 centavos.

[Warbucks]

so you are promoting segregation?

black juries for black people and white juries for white?

what about latinos and asians?

and what is a peer? oj's peers are overpaid, egotistic, often above-the-law athletes. should oj be judged by the university of miami football team? i'm sure they'd find him innocent and then hit the strip clubs together, maybe [CodeWord125] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord125) somebody along the way or beating up the bouncer.

in situations like this i am all for segregation.

peers...people from racial/social backgrounds as is the defendant.
my my...is that what you think young college football players do in their spare time [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)? i am surprised at you.

[CBGBConnisur]

oj is kind of a special case, he is famous and wealthy. the average minority who faces the justice system is not, and the us system is extremely harsh against minorities. many times its a case of someone being at the wrong place at the wrong time, there are countless cases of black men being arrested just for being in the vicinity of a major crime. my newly adopted country of australia, people say there is a racism problem down under but frankly speaking its a huge crock of shit because certain ethnic groups that live in australia would have some serious issues in america. the system in europe is a total joke as well, that is why you have areas in europe where the police are too cowardly to enter. i went to asia on a trip and saw a group of perverts closely follow an attractive girl in a shopping area in hong kong, if they pulled that in the us they would be all arrested for either assault or attempted [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123) in less than a nyc minute.

[Doctor_Skank]

in situations like this i am all for segregation.

peers...people from racial/social backgrounds as is the defendant.
my my...is that what you think young college football players do in their spare time [CodeWord123] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123)? i am surprised at you.was metaphorically speaking... and used the once-notorious miami football team as an exaggerated example. i thought you'd be able to see through that. of course i don't throw all college athletes into one pot.

but there's another double standard for you... college athletes get away with almost anything on campus. at my university there were a couple of alleged [CodeWord124] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord124) (which most believed actually occured) that were brushed under the rug in the name of the school's reputation and the football and basketball program. i'm sure this is the case at a lot of schools.

and you think segregation would work? by that logic there should be double standards for crimes committed? that's a step backwards, or not?

bet you are all for affirmative action too.

[Balluba]

"The Norwegian stunt reporter Pia Haraldsen would cover the U.S. election campaign for Norwegian TV 2 Entertainment, but the Americans remembered her previous performance as a reporter. Therefore, they said no to grant her journalist visa.

Pia made great success as "political editor" in the "Rikets Røst" on TV2, and managed to irritate the U.S. politician James Oddo so that he swored and threw Haraldsen and the film team on the door. The video quickly found the way to You Tube, where it has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people. According to VG, this is the reason why Haraldsen unable to cover the election campaign as a journalist.

Satire should be element why the U.S. security ministry has turned thumbs down Haraldsen application and has not granted her a journalist visa. Pia Haraldsen is a graduate in media and communications at Goldsmiths College in London, is a member of the Norwegian Journalists association and have international press cards."

Enclosed the video link and some photos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1iNH7W9SC8

[Doctor_Skank]

"The Norwegian stunt reporter Pia Haraldsen would cover the U.S. election campaign for Norwegian TV 2 Entertainment, but the Americans remembered her previous performance as a reporter. Therefore, they said no to grant her journalist visa.

Pia made great success as "political editor" in the "Rikets Røst" on TV2, and managed to irritate the U.S. politician James Oddo so that he swored and threw Haraldsen and the film team on the door. The video quickly found the way to You Tube, where it has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people. According to VG, this is the reason why Haraldsen unable to cover the election campaign as a journalist.

Satire should be element why the U.S. security ministry has turned thumbs down Haraldsen application and has not granted her a journalist visa. Pia Haraldsen is a graduate in media and communications at Goldsmiths College in London, is a member of the Norwegian Journalists association and have international press cards."

Enclosed the video link and some photos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1iNH7W9SC8That's funny. Guess Oddo was having a bad day. He looked annoyed as hell.

I'd have thrown her out to for asking such inane and unfunny questions, her wannabe Borat approach was 4th great drama class at best. Maybe would have asked for her phone number first though...

And now she's restricted from entering the US and can't fully execute her job as a international journalist, not that she seemed to have much talent anyway. Maybe she ought to try porn.

Rejected... now who laughs last, Pia?

An gross overreaction for sure on Oddo's part, but still give the guy some credit...

Oddo: 1
Pia: 0

One small step in the emanzipation of the male species in America.

[Balluba]

That's funny. Guess Oddo was having a bad day. He looked annoyed as hell.

I'd have thrown her out to for asking such inane and unfunny questions, her wannabe Borat approach was 4th great drama class at best. Maybe would have asked for her phone number first though...

And now she's restricted from entering the US and can't fully execute her job as a international journalist, not that she seemed to have much talent anyway. Maybe she ought to try porn.

Rejected... now who laughs last, Pia?

An gross overreaction for sure on Oddo's part, but still give the guy some credit...

Oddo: 1
Pia: 0

One small step in the emanzipation of the male species in America.

She have "punked" numerous of politicians thought the world, and have met more important people than this "gentleman". Keep in mind she is just acting, and yes, Mr. Oddo made a complete fool out of himself.

I dont think she is so funny at all, but she is not a criminal. What is surprising is the fact that US authorities refused her to perform her work. It would hardly have happened in any other Western country.

[CBGBConnisur]

It looks more and more like an Obama landslide, many of the battleground states that were favoring McCain are now strongly Obama. The attacks Palin has been chucking at Obama like Bill Ayers is absolutely lame. Honestly if an idiot like Palin gets into the White House, and you know she will take over for McFossil who is too old, America is screwed.

Pollster and RealPolitics which tracks all major polls show Obama at 330 to 341 safe or leaning electoral votes.

[Doctor_Skank]

She have "punked" numerous of politicians thought the world, and have met more important people than this "gentleman". Keep in mind she is just acting, and yes, Mr. Oddo made a complete fool out of himself.

I dont think she is so funny at all, but she is not a criminal. What is surprising is the fact that US authorities refused her to perform her work. It would hardly have happened in any other Western country.Frankly I'm surprised as well.... especially to a Norwegian citizen. US-Norwegian relations are generally very good. One of the few friends the US has left. Maybe there was more to it than we know? Perhaps Oddo filed a grudge or something. Regrettably, some people can't take a joke.

As for her, I know she's acting, she's just not doing it very well. Her delivery is terrible. Maybe she has better work out there, but that skit was lame.

[Balluba]

Maybe she has better work out there, but that skit was lame.
The rumors in Norway says she was gangbanged of 5 Afro Americans the night before this interview, therefore, she was a little bit put out.

Oh'well - what do I know.

[Doctor_Skank]

The rumors in Norway says she was gangbanged of 5 Afro Americans the night before this interview, therefore, she was a little bit put out.

Oh'well - what do I know.Could be, been known to happen. That or 5 Mexican gardeners.

[CBGBConnisur]

Actually a lot of people from countries closely aligned with the US have been given a boot on their asses. An Australian girl this year was deported out of the US after she was discovered to overstay her visa, they also put her in a detention center for a while. Not a big deal since Aussie immigration has given a hard time to US citizens many times in the past.

[Leeuwen]

"The Norwegian stunt reporter Pia Haraldsen would cover the U.S. election campaign for Norwegian TV 2 Entertainment, but the Americans remembered her previous performance as a reporter. Therefore, they said no to grant her journalist visa.

Her performance was really harmless, but this Odda guy, whoever he's in the food chain, made a total fool of himself. No politician, nor PR-staff can afford to (re)act like he did. His lack of humor, will bring more jokes deriding on the subject. Wow, so he barred a blond Norwegian from obtaining journalist visa to the US? Wouldn't surprise me if she entered the country as 'tourist'. No visa required.
Note this is quite common procedure for journalist working in... hmm.. difficult areas.

[Jan 156]

Frankly I'm surprised as well.... especially to a Norwegian citizen. US-Norwegian relations are generally very good. One of the few friends the US has left.

I think one gets the true temperature of one's own country by looking at it from outside. I have had American friends hassled at the U.K. border. And if you've ever been strip searched by your own lot you see a different side.

But there is still a sliding scale. I personally avoid flying via America now if I can, even if it means paying slightly more. The hassles at security might be understandable but they are a nuisance. And the invasion of privacy demanded by U.S. security on personal details of all passengers now is offensive to my European sensibilities (not that our own politicians are that much behind!)

[Yogin]

My brothers: please, this board is about American Women, right?
And before you explain how it's all connected, yeah right. I can link the price of yak butter in Nepal to OJ's conviction to why AM's are so fatass. But I won't.
Thanks. Peace.

[Looking For Eden]

My brothers: please, this board is about American Women, right?
Thanks. Peace.

LOL. Its american politics guy

[Balluba]

My brothers: please, this board is about American Women, right?

Thanks. Peace.

Hahah! Funny :-D

[Jelly Donut]

...the final straw in the hay, and America's day as an economic superpower will now come to an end...

I always enjoy reading your posts and predictions.

The United States hit the depths of the Great Depression in 1932-1933 and by 1945 it's global position as a superpower was relatively greater than at any time before and, some might say, any time since. So, it's difficult to say a financial crisis indicates predestination of anything.

[CBGBConnisur]

When the Great Depression happened, the Nazis came to power, Japan began expanding its empire and World War 2 happened, the US asserted itself and became the dominant military power in the world. This time around the playing field is becoming more even with third world nations like China and India becoming major players, globalization has changed the whole world economic game and now a lot of third world countries like China and India will move into first world status over the next couple of decades. More countries are becoming nuclear capable and that means the US can't just attack anyone. Look at the limp response towards the Russian invasion of Georgia. The US was also a creditor nation in the early 20th Century now we borrow money from China just so the government can operate. The EU now also meddles with some of our largest corporations such as Microsoft. As a society the US is more divided these days than it was in the last century where it was given that if you wanted to go somewhere you needed get rid of the habits from the old country and be an American. These days in your typical American city multiculturalism has made America a divided nation.

Also this financial crisis could not come at a worse time. Everyone knows Obama is going to become the next President, his lead is widening with every bad news report about the economy. The bailout for Wall Street and the financial system will be so big, he won't have any money left for his ambitious alternative energy program, tax cuts for middle class people, etc.

Still I don't think the US will collapse outright, it will just become another country and another chess piece in the global game. The unipolar moment that existed since 1989 is clearly over.

[Doctor_Skank]

Barack Obama will clean up the mess left by the Republicans, particularly by the current 'buffoon' in the White House.I wish him the best of luck, however the damage already done is massive. Moreover, not only the presdential clown is responsible, but also the American people as well. Silliness.

[Balluba]

I wish him the best of luck, however the damage already done is massive. Moreover, not only the presdential clown is responsible, but also the American people as well. Silliness.

How can You say so ? Its a proven fact that this is not true ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

[DJ FourMoney]

Affirmative Action?

Sure it helped WOMEN too... Nobody seems to remember that. Its one of those "things" attached to Black People only.

If Affirmative Action is BAD, then so is Cronyism. People should be able to qualify for whatever position they seek based on qualifications set by the employee/owner. You should not get run Daddy's Company just because you have Daddy's Blood, if you in turn RUN IT INTO THE GROUND (which has been done more times than I can bother to count). Entitlement is fully embedded in Anglo culture, keeps Women and Minorities out of successful positions, makes sure they earn less than White Males.

Is it any accident that just about every Fortune 500 company run by some White Guy (old or young, crony connected or entitled, you take your pick)?

When Women and Minorities were not EXTENDED the same opportunities. Yes the Vice Chairman of Coke-A-Cola is Black and the CEO of Ebay is a Woman but gee I hardly call that an achievement, I call that TOKENISM.

I say we'll stop as Black people making race an issue when White people stop making it an issue. When somebody says Black people are only voting for Obama because he's Black that's utter nonsense when Blacks have been voting Dem since Kennedy. Of course we are proud Obama has made it this far because despite being Bi-Racial, he's the "Black" or "African-American" would-be President by "liberal" and "conservative" 99.9% White owned media, the ONE DROP rule...

When people just say Obama is just another highly educated MAN and not have to add a modifier to his name, then we have turned the page on this subject, but NOT until then.

Finally, we shouldn't have to made to accept "racist" attitudes. Jews don't let you get away with it, why should we? Jews largely own the media, so you'll get tar and feathered if you say something racist about Jews ...

Blacks don't have that kind of power, but to only POINT fingers, which is AUTOMATICALLY called into question in these early days of Neo-Liberalism....

Neo Conservatives and Neo Liberals have no place in our culture they are the extremes sides of idealogies run amuck.

[CBGBConnisur]

Sorry but China and Russia have proved to the world what most in the West have denied. A politically incorrect dictatorship can bring prosperity as both nations show both.

Lets face reality, America has been living high on the hog for too long, and Americans have gotten used to living on credit. The US is the only country in the world where people in "poor" areas can be seen driving Mercedes and BMWs, the rest of the world has to buy them with cash or with far stricter credit terms. Why? Because of auto financing and easy access to credit. In fact when I was in New York there were dealerships in rough areas whose lots werefilled with fairly new high end luxury cars and even the new ones were sold to people with questionable credit.

The same has gone with the housing market, up until recently all you needed was a pulse to get a home loan. Much of those loans were financed by foreigners whose appetite to fund American's way of excess is now starting to run out.

The loosening of credit happened well before the Bush administration showed up, it started in the 1990s. The Bush administration just made the US look like an inconsiderate bully in the eyes of the world which influences how foreigners perceive us when they decide to invest the money that allows the liquidity for us to live high. Now the US has few friends, even long time allies like Australia, Britain, and Japan are now turning their backs on the US to newer rising powers.

The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.

[Doctor_Skank]

The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.Exactamundo. QFT.

I can still hate Bush for being a gigantic turd though.

[CBGBConnisur]

Honestly to get a real feel of the state of America, avoid the coastal cities, and see the Midwest, especially the rust belt states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. The US economy is a shadow of its former self. I hear bullshit talkers say that the loss of American manufacturing is irrelevant. Also that Muslim slimeball who works for Newsweek, Fareed Zakaria who loves to make his spitting on America look like he is cheering for America say that an idea economy will take the place of manufacturing is rubbish(ie designing Ipods rather than manufacturing them). Many European countries also have sizable knowledge based economies yet manufacturing is still seen as a bulwark of the working classes. Japan is another economy that is widely seen as knowledge based, in some areas Japanese technology surpasses the US, yet manufacturing is still key to that nation's prosperity. India's idea economy has not lifted its masses out of poverty, and it would be frightening if the US resembled India in another 20 to 30 years, with an ultra rich elite and the masses in poverty. Not everyone is cut out to become a scientist, engineer, or internet entrepreneur. China has largely lifted itself from a third world basket case to a soon to be superpower through manufacturing, and despite having many desperately poor people, its middle class is rapidly growing, still most people are poor, but two or three decades in the future things will be different in that Asian nation.

I don't like Bush either but the US is a democracy and the people elected Bush. A sizable portion of the population bought into his hypocritical nonsense. I recall when running for reelection in 2004 at a rally he was standing on top of a giant W, and the morons surrounding him were cheering.

Oh I forgot to correct myself, the Russians did not invade Georgia, they were responding to Georgia's incursion of breakaway South Ossetia. Still the US was heavily courting Georgia, and the lack of support shows that US power in the world is declining.

Right now I would liken the US to a passenger jet about to crash. I think Obama would lead to a soft landing while McCain would pretty much lead to a fiery crash. And Palin....start praying to God, that woman has is completely out of her league.

[Dickhead]

I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.

I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.

Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.

Does anyone see a pattern here?

[CBGBConnisur]

In Australia, the education ministries are now beginning to require young people to learn Asian languages, Mandarin in particular. Even the wealthy in America are hiring Chinese au pairs to teach their children about Chinese language and culture. Why? They see a growing pattern where Asia is becoming an economic force to be reckoned with, despite the financial turmoil in the US and UK, the major Asian nations will still continue growing although somewhat at a slower pace. Goldman Sachs predicts China will surpass the US around 2041 in terms of nominal GDP, another sources places the year 2020 when the Asian nation becomes the biggest economy in the world.

Also the major oil producers such as Russia and OPEC aren't really experiencing any major problems. In fact its Christmas in Moscow.

I never voted for Bush either and I never really accumulated much consumer debt. Still the fact remains that as much as 85 percent of Americans live day to day on credit. Would you then understand why this credit crunch is causing mass panic?

One thing that this election has exposed about America, is that the racial divide still remains, it was particularly so during the nomination process for the Democratic candidate, it was completely a double edged sword, white voters who supported Clinton felt cheated, and if Obama lost many black voters felt the same. The racial problem is extending into the main election, you can bet
that if Obama loses, its going to cause serious friction in America, and even if he wins, many people in more conservative regions of the US will resent his message of change. I am completely shocked that I will be seeing the decline of the US in my lifetime. The next 20 to 30 years will be among the most unstable the planet has ever seen, probably worse than the first half of the 20th Century, I am just wondering who the next Hitler may be.

[DJ FourMoney]

I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.

I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.

Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.

Does anyone see a pattern here?

Its a pattern and shouldn't shock anybody. This is not talked about in American History class.

As somebody said Naomi Klein earlier this week -

"The extreme LEFT has been made to take ownership of their failed ideology"

(Communism, Socialism, etc)

"The Right has not been made to take ownership of its failure"

With this world wide economic meltdown, maybe, FINALLY with Obama as the leader we can again make companies accountable to their customers and make Government work for the PEOPLE, not Big Business, Not Wall Street, Not Special or Extreme interest.

It will be a very slow and painful process and lives will be lost in the battle, but it HAS to happen. We can't let them build it all up and then let it breakdown and have Government give them a handout for wrong-doing. It makes very little sense to anybody how Wall Street gets bailed out, but the average voter/citizen isn't.

Europeans take this for granted but for once I rather my worry about the Government increasing our taxes slightly to continue paying for our health care system and educational system that is otherwise ultra low cost or free, entitled just like Social Security.

And not when we'll stop out spending every country in the world 2 times over on the military. Just cutting that budget by a 1/3rd would pay for all the social programs Obama wants.

[CBGBConnisur]

That is going to be easier said than done. Corporations had power in America well before W showed up. The gap between rich and poor widened during the Clinton administration, it continued the pattern during W. I doubt this will improve under Obama, if anything he is becoming more establishment, I could see him become more pressured to adopt more conservative views, especially the pro-Israel lobby in America will be all over him like peanut butter on bread. He picked Joe Biden as his VP, and he is as Washington as usual as they come.

The reality is that Europe is moving away from America, I will bet in a decade NATO will not exist, the whole Transatlantic alliance was undone by W. The kind of social programs that Europe has and their system would not work well in a heterogeneous country like the USA. This economic crisis is now spreading into Europe, the most severe since the 1930s, so don't assume that
Europe will continue in its current direction.
In Germany for example, a far right party known as the NPD, a more modern version of the Nazi party is gaining power in the former East Germany. Austria is seeing the same. The far right will be gaining serious ground in Europe, especially with a sour European economy, Islamic terrorism, threats from Russia and Iran, count on it.
China and Russia will exert influence all over Asia. Already many key nations in the Pacific are turning towards more friendly relations with the Chinese. Most notably Japan, which was once the mortal enemy of China.

[Beavis]

We can bicker on this for hours. Bottom line is we only thought we didn't have much of a choice in 2004. Absolutely unbelievable that the choices got worse. I guess I will vote for McCain as being an oil industry employee I think I am safer there but by a very small margin. Either way we are screwed, it has been that way for years. The working man has no party.

[CBGBConnisur]

Sadly you are right, the Democrats have done little for the poor and disadvantaged of America, they say they will do things but then once in power, they forget where they come from. Look at Hilary and Bill, living a life of luxury in New York. Obama's net worth will baloon to some ridiculously high figures, he even gets Xmas cards from major celebs, sure Tom Cruise is just like the rest of us. If you want a more fair society, I suggest just leaving the US and migrate to the EU, Canada, Australia/NZ. I did it in 2000 when times were generally much better than now.
These days Asia is becoming the apple of my eye. The amount of progress and development that is occurring at such a rapid rate in that part of the world is astounding. People just have to get used to the fact that America's hey days are over. Oh well, another chapter in the history of mankind is coming to a close. Its a general pattern of history, an unpopular subject, but rings true even in this interconnected global world.

[Bango Cheito]

CB is right. Several of the more exclusive Manhattan private schools now offer Mandarin on the curriculum. Here in Colombia it's becoming common, students are now required to take English, and also offered French German and Mandarin, and not just at the exclusive joints either, but even in the poorer neighborhoods.

[CBGBConnisur]

It seems now that its time to start learning Mandarin Chinese. Hindi will probably also become more useful as that is another growing giant.

[DJ FourMoney]

We can bicker on this for hours. Bottom line is we only thought we didn't have much of a choice in 2004. Absolutely unbelievable that the choices got worse. I guess I will vote for McCain as being an oil industry employee I think I am safer there but by a very small margin. Either way we are screwed, it has been that way for years. The working man has no party.

To each his own and honestly do you think Obama would have gotten this far if he had -

A) Adopted the typical positions of a 60's Civil Rights Activist?

B) Took Jimmy Carter's Populace position, in which the Blue Dogs and other Corp owned Dems then put the Super Delegate process in place to PREVENT such a thing from happening again!

He's gotten this far by having a mainly centric position. C'mon you guys aren't really that stupid to think he could have come out "Blacker" than the Ace of Spades and gotten this far????

They attack him for listening to Ludacris for CS!

Look the Dems do better overall. CBGB glosses over the FACT that Clinton's Populace position was CHANGED by Greenspan and others shortly after his first day in office and INFORMED him he wasn't going to have the money in the budget to do a National Health Care system and the Tax Cuts for the Middle he wanted. Greenspan said, the only thing promise you can keep from your run up to the presidency is reduce the national debt.

You can argue the tiny bits if you want, like if the books were cooked by Greenspan, Robert Reich and Others from his cabinet or not.

The point was Bill Clinton was angry he wasn't going to be able too keep his promises...

W. and Regan were puppets for the real agenda of the Neo Conservatives and Project New American Century.

This is the 2nd time conservatives have put the country into the toilet!

McCain is done like a Christmas Turkey for his White Trash Rally Outbust and for Palin the Liar fanning the flames; thinly veiled racial attacks and Obama's numbers just keep heading North. Wed's final debate will nail it and 70-75% of the country will end up voting in this election, because "Its the Economy Again Stupid!"

Funny about voting for McSain because you're employeed by BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, Total, Getty or Occidental. That's like voting for McCain because your employed by Raytheon.... Support the Troops huh? Farce homie, a total Farce.

Nothing was WORST than W being in office! Well maybe Hoover but that's for another thread.

[CBGBConnisur]

I am not a Republican, I just know for a fact that the Democrats are not the working man's friend either. When the vote for military action was passed, a majority of the Democrats, including Hilary C and John Kerry voted for the invasion. On many issues they water down their ambitious programs. The US will never have the kind of social safety net that people in Western Europe, Australia, and Canada enjoy.
Also equal blame has to placed on Americans for their own bad habits. People live high on the hog in America, live well above their means, go into debt. Americans also buy into the stupidity on network and Cable TV with all those "reality" shows about rich people and try to emulate those people. Lets face it people like Lauren Conrad, Brooke Hogan, and Paris Hilton do not represent the average American. Now people are blaming the banks for enticing them to live on credit. The door swings both ways. I have seen the way Europeans and Australians live, and they are much more conscious of not going overboard, although some Aussies lately have become Americanized, still buying things on credit is still somewhat a taboo in Oz compared to the US, there is even a chain of electronics stores that offers discounts to customers that pay for purchases in cash. Australians know that when you finance a car for example, you do not own the vehicle, the bank owns it.
Tom Brokaw asked a tricky question, about how American ability to influence the world will change during a time of economic slowdown. McCain completely avoided the question while Obama indirectly said that the US power is in decline. Obama will win but the damage from the last eight years will be very difficult to overcome. Due the ease of communications most people around the world will know that nearly half of the US will disagree with Obama anyway. World leaders are now becoming aware of the wide swings in ideology in the American executive office, that is why many countries are looking to limit US power, and why the world is becoming multipolar.
I still like Obama more, I was a passenger on a jet that was about to crash, I would like a pilot that could complete a soft landing. Obama is that pilot. McCain and Palin are clueless nimrods that would send that plane into a fiery crash. This twat talks family values yet her daughter gets knocked up by some punk. I was also shocked at some of the moronic things people at McCain rallies said, there was one middle aged woman who said Obama is an Arab, it reminded me of why I moved out of the US, as I said its people like that woman who have collectively created the mess that exists today.

[Opebo]

The United States hit the depths of the Great Depression in 1932-1933 and by 1945 it's global position as a superpower was relatively greater than at any time before and, some might say, any time since. So, it's difficult to say a financial crisis indicates predestination of anything.

Well said. In fact financial crisis and depression will normally predestine better economic policy - the election of Liberal Democrats and the return of proper redistributionist Keynesianism.

[CBGBConnisur]

Well, we shall soon find out.

[Jelly Donut]

Well said. In fact financial crisis and depression will normally predestine better economic policy - the election of Liberal Democrats and the return of proper redistributionist Keynesianism.

My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).

"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller

It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistribute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.

In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.

Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills something off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.

So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy is waiting in the wings.

[CBGBConnisur]

My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).

"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller

It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistibute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.

In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.

Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills something off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.

So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy waiting in the wings.

I could relate to the latter as it describes my own life, working hard was just what I did. Still a lot of people are the former and to me that is not a good sign. Anyhow we cannot predict the future but history can hint at a lot of possible things that might happen down the road.

Obama or McCain, I am certain Americans are going to pay higher taxes with this nearly $1 Trillion bailout. Its ridiculous how now the elites in the Ivory Tower that is Wall Street want the government to help them from sinking, at the same time they support policies that screw over everyday working people.
America became a great and strong power because of its massive middle class, the greatest social cushion between rich and poor in history, which allowed it so much stability. Europe was the opposite during the first half of the century and hence its political problems were severe during those times. Not all poor people are looking to milk the government, not everyone is fortunate in life.

McCain is too old and if he becomes unfit to perform his duties as President, America will be stuck with Palin, who will probably be worse than Bush. McCain only picked her in a lame attempt to get former Hilary supporters. Now that plan is burning down as the economic crisis continues to unfold. The policies of the last eight years have been absolutely horrific, if they continue, its definitely going to lead to a disaster.

[DirkDingy]

I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.

I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.

Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.

Does anyone see a pattern here?

Many of the underlying tenets of American political partys have evolved to the point where they bear no resmeblance to their original forms. The Republican party of today does not resemble the GOP pre-Nixon...think the old Gipper...the icon of conservatism...he used to be a liberal democrat who most famously stated:" I didn't leave the democratic party, it left me."

[DirkDingy]

Funny about voting for McSain because you're employeed by BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, Total, Getty or Occidental. That's like voting for McCain because your employed by Raytheon.... Support the Troops huh? Farce homie, a total Farce.

Nothing was WORST than W being in office! Well maybe Hoover but that's for another thread.


All Politics is Local.

Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:

I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.

Iraq saved me...at one time I lost my USG job, my wife turned her back on me, my pockets were empty, I was 25k in debt with no way to pay it, my family damn near disowned me, and I had no purpose in life.

I took a job with a dirt bag defense contractor soley on basis of a resume--no interview--hire, wiped out my debt in three months....25k is a lot of money for me to come up with in cash, but not in Iraq,...got my security clearance in order, went back to Iraq with a consulting firm at an outrageous salary, came home and worked for said firm, gained invaluable experience which translated into more assignments in other parts of the world, and now I am getting 1-3 job offers a month all over the world for great money and even an greater benefits package.

All because of Iraq.

Selfish, yes, but I'd vote for W again if I could.

I'd love to see a brotha from 116th and Broadway in the WH :)..but even more so I want to keep the good times rolling for myself.

Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.

[Warbucks]

All Politics is Local.

Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:

I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.

Iraq saved me...at one time I lost my USG job, my wife turned her back on me, my pockets were empty, I was 25k in debt with no way to pay it, my family damn near disowned me, and I had no purpose in life.

I took a job with a dirt bag defense contractor soley on basis of a resume--no interview--hire, wiped out my debt in three months....25k is a lot of money for me to come up with in cash, but not in Iraq,...got my security clearance in order, went back to Iraq with a consulting firm at an outrageous salary, came home and worked for said firm, gained invaluable experience which translated into more assignments in other parts of the world, and now I am getting 1-3 job offers a month all over the world for great money and even an greater benefits package.

All because of Iraq.

Slefish, yes, but I'd vote for W again if I could.

I'd love to see a brotha from 116th and Broadway in the WH :)..but even more so I want to keep the good times rolling for myself.

Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.

Me and you don’t agree on a lot of things but we do have something in common here.

[DirkDingy]

It's unfortunate, but a lot of wealth is built on the misery and suffering of others.: Take the Russian Oligarchs;they robbed the state's coffers to become billiionaires as the old babushkas were starving. 2. How about the wall street execs...they destroyed the lives of many americans by knowingly misleading them but they got their million dollars bonuses and their unemployment will be mollified with their golden parachutes..take the Kennedy family, Fitz Kennedy got rich by trading with the Nazis, operating speakesays, and bootlegging...citibank, the bagman for the Nazis, many other european firms got rich by appropriating jewish property and wealth... AIG, got rich off the African Slave trade....there are too many examples to count...the best way to go from zero to hero in a flash is to be in a position to take advantage of other's misfortunes.

[Dickhead]

Well, yes, Dirk, wars are good for creating full employment. That's one reason recent Republican administrations have typically started them. Wars are good for spending one's way out of a depression (Opebo's Keynesian economics) as well. But let's not forget the "peace dividend" after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. That was a big catalyst for the economic boom of the 1990s which enabled many of us to monger profligately and internationally.

But, we fucked that all up and it is all over now so it is time to put the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grindstone again. When the revolution finally comes we'll get rid of all that shit but I'll be dead by then so good luck to those mongers who remain. It sure was fun while it lasted.

[Doctor_Skank]

Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:

I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.
Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.Even a US military victory in Iraq... which can only be measured by withdrawing from Iraq and leaving behind a stable pro-US government and infrastructure to support US investments there... will have come at a tremendous cost. The military can handle material and personnel losses... the cost the nation has to bear however has to be measured not only financially, but politically and socially as well.

Just as you fondly look back at what personal good the Iraq war has brought you, W can also look back at the war and hope that it brought some personal profit for himself. It did the nation no good, and the nation should have been his (and our) priority.

Maybe history will judge our times differently than I do now, but from here it looks like a colossal cock-up.

BTW RE: contracting... I doubt the US government will be able to continue it's free-spending ways re: contracting. I considered it awhile myself (and have met lots of ex-military, ex-LE guys who are working in Iraq/Astan/Africa), but wonder how the US will be able to afford paying these companies. The costs are incredible.

[DirkDingy]

Well, yes, Dirk, wars are good for creating full employment. That's one reason recent Republican administrations have typically started them. Wars are good for spending one's way out of a depression (Opebo's Keynesian economics) as well. But let's not forget the "peace dividend" after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. That was a big catalyst for the economic boom of the 1990s which enabled many of us to monger profligately and internationally.

But, we fucked that all up and it is all over now so it is time to put the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grindstone again. When the revolution finally comes we'll get rid of all that shit but I'll be dead by then so good luck to those mongers who remain. It sure was fun while it lasted.

This is only true when a nation fully mobilizes. The last time we did this was WWII. During WWII all Americans were asked to make sacrifices and contribute to the war effort; W told us to go shopping after 9/11.

This war, with all its outsourcing, has only enhanced the pocketbooks of a few select companies--like kbr, dyncorp, blackwater, saic, etc.

for me, a person works in the international development arena, it provided unique opportunities. many of these companies and their personnel are left leaning and refused to go to Iraq for political as well as operational security issues. this fact, coupled with the sheer size of the programs in Iraq meant that there were vacancies that were not filled with the normal cadre of experienced professionals so many young, smart, but inexperienced people were thrust into jobs which would normally only be filled with sr. development professionals that had long domestic careers before they went abroad--maybe this a bad thing.

once this experience is gained in MSME (Micro Small Medium Enterprise), penions reform, infrastructure. it’s transferable to other development projects elsewhere.

that's what iraq did for me.

[CBGBConnisur]

There is a big problem with this war being able to stimulate the American economy. The money to fight the war is coming from overseas, its just increasing the national debt. Lowering taxes in a time of war is leading to deficits which is disastrous.
The war in Iraq right now is turning around but I doubt it will continue, its already becoming clear that all Iraq did was pave the way for Iran to become the big player in the region. Despite the Bush Doctrine, nothing has been done about Tehran. The Israelis predict Tehran will go nuclear by next year which contradicts the NIE report that said Tehran abandoned the development of WMD. Most people consider Israeli intelligence to be the best in the world.

[Opebo]

It's unfortunate, but a lot of wealth is built on the misery and suffering of others.

All wealth is by definition the misery and suffering of others, DD.

[DJ FourMoney]

My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).

"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller

It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistribute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.

In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.

Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills something off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.

So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy is waiting in the wings.

However if you start from today and reduce cost of school that you're only in debt for a short amount of time (maybe 5 years after medical school). Germans for example go to school for free, even to become a doctor but only get paid about $35-40K a year, just because we're "America' you should get paid mid to high six digits for the same job????

America is one of the few places that caring for people can make you rich.... Yet teachers get paid hardly anything and are expect to produce high quality adults.... Hmmm

Okay but you have to remember, I don't recall anybody making $250,000 a year complaining that they pay too much tax. The truth is, most high income Americans AVOID paying taxes the best way they can, sometimes legally, sometimes NOT - See Castroneves

Tax Shelters are very popular, so it hiding your money overseas in the Cayman Islands and Swiss Bank Accounts....

Close those loop holes and THEN you might see some complaining...

But this whole NOTION of not paying taxes I find a bit strange, how else do things in America get done without them??? Most people complain because the Government doesn't WORK for them when they pay taxes. Why do you think the outcry for the original "Bail Out" so large?

That's because the typical Neo-Conservative playbook says trickle down economics work, when intelligent people KNOW better. FDR proved Trickle Up economics works and works WELL. It just doesn't allow somebody to make ridiculous amounts of money for basically pushing paper around, you can still make a good living but ONE Benz is enough.

I don't care how or even why you make alot of money, just don't poo-poo me when I want National Health Care and your taxes will increase SLIGHTLY because of it and you really won't notice it, no reason to complain or even say Republicans are speaking on your behalf....

[DJ FourMoney]

All wealth is by definition the misery and suffering of others, DD.

No truer words have been spoken....

DD I don't playa hate, you and Daddy got yours from the War because there so few chances to do it the legit way in America because of your skin color.

[Cruiser D]

I was bored and looking through the generally interesting postings of Doctor Skank, which lead me here. I generally ignore most Op-Ed pieces because they aren't worth my time to reply to....but...

In which alternative reality world are you talking about a prosperous China and Russia? Both countries oppress their large working class while the tiny minority elite benefit. The only change is that a slightly larger administrative middle class has emerged. The Russian economy can not survive oil going under $50/barrel – which it is headed to after the election. How many times have their stock markets shut down in the last 30 days? China is a country of what –1.2 billion, where 800 million still live in the same serf like conditions that they have for the last several hundred years.

As far as the rest of what you said I really don’t know where to begin, you seem to be just throwing statements from your own personal ideology out there like they are fact.

The blame for this mess can be squarely placed at the feet of financial deregulation and a US economy stalled by the Bush administration policies. Deregulation, started in the 80’s by RR, continued by GHWB, BC and brought to new levels of obscenity by the W administration. Notice how I didn’t say W himself, who as he has for most of his ‘professional’ life been nothing but a dupe and a front man. The sub prime market collapse was nothing more then a catalyst that brought the Wall Street house of cards down. Just as the credit calls for the margin players in 1929 brought about that crash and the Great Depression.


Sorry but China and Russia have proved to the world what most in the West have denied. A politically incorrect dictatorship can bring prosperity as both nations show both.

Lets face reality, America has been living high on the hog for too long, and Americans have gotten used to living on credit. The US is the only country in the world where people in "poor" areas can be seen driving Mercedes and BMWs, the rest of the world has to buy them with cash or with far stricter credit terms. Why? Because of auto financing and easy access to credit. In fact when I was in New York there were dealerships in rough areas whose lots werefilled with fairly new high end luxury cars and even the new ones were sold to people with questionable credit.

The same has gone with the housing market, up until recently all you needed was a pulse to get a home loan. Much of those loans were financed by foreigners whose appetite to fund American's way of excess is now starting to run out.

The loosening of credit happened well before the Bush administration showed up, it started in the 1990s. The Bush administration just made the US look like an inconsiderate bully in the eyes of the world which influences how foreigners perceive us when they decide to invest the money that allows the liquidity for us to live high. Now the US has few friends, even long time allies like Australia, Britain, and Japan are now turning their backs on the US to newer rising powers.

The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.

[CBGBConnisur]

Oil going to $50 a barrel, maybe but not for long. Even with an Obama administration putting the chances of a military confrontation with Iran as very remote, I bet Israel will step up and there will be a rumble between the two, that will guarantee oil will climb up. Israelis are already preparing for an Obama administration and they will go alone against Iran without the US for the first time in history.

China and Russia are the two of the fastest BRICs countries, the RMB is starting to appreciate against the Dollar, and their economy will still grow 10 percent per annum. This means by 2020, China will have a bigger economy than the US. As far as oppression is concerned, you did not read about the US military will be called in to stop any kind of domestic insurrection if an economic collapse hits the US. America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality. Obama will not repeal the Patriot Act, and in reality will use it to finalize Bush's plans to turn the US into full police State.

Obama is going to be left with an economy in ruins and he will become a scapegoat. There are many regions of the US where he is not popular, probably any red state. You should have heard the angry comments made by Republican supporters at McCain rallies.

The Bush administration was able to lower taxes and fight a war because of foreign buyers of US Treasuries, mostly the Saudis and the Chinese.

The long run trend is an increase in the price of oil. I bet by 2018, oil will be at minimum around $300 a barrel. The world reached peak production in the 1970s and now the Asians are set to place increasing stress on the world's resources, there is no way oil will get cheaper, give a break, the stuff is running out and it will be years before the West will break its oil dependence...if ever.

If Americans did not need credit to live large or merely just live, why is Wall Street panicking???

Oh yeah, I have been visiting China regularly over the past several years, I can tell you that while there is a lot of third world poverty, the country is progressing like no other nation in history.

The US is turning into a police state:
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/march2005/170305runningman.htm

I also got news for you, even though Jorg Haider had an accident you should have heard what Austrians said about this man, they called him a "a good man", Haider was a Nazi sympathizer and most Austrians were upset about his passing. This was the same guy who called former SS Wafen "heroes". NPD is gaining traction in East Germany, Far right groups are gaining power all over Europe. So watch for the EU to turn into facist police state, especially with Islamic terror in Europe, nuclear Iran, and a reinvigorated Russia.

Ron Paul tells it like it is, he ain't living in an "alternate" reality:
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr062702.htm

[George90]

America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality.

I would ask CBGB what he was high on so I could sell some and get rich. Except we are all seeing the same writing on the wall and I can read as well as most. CBGB's claims, while out of the infield, are well within the ball park. Regardless of who becomes president, the US, and most of the world, is in for some kind of ride in 2009 and possibly 2010.

[CBGBConnisur]

$50 a barrel oil, are you kidding??? Even the revised Goldman Sachs estimates accounting for a global slowdown, shows that oil will be hovering in the $100 to $135 range over the next four years. A nuclear Iran will definitely be a factor in higher oil prices, as will growth from Asia.

[Doctor_Skank]

$50 a barrel oil, are you kidding??? Even the revised Goldman Sachs estimates accounting for a global slowdown, shows that oil will be hovering in the $100 to $135 range over the next four years. A nuclear Iran will definitely be a factor in higher oil prices, as will growth from Asia.$70/80 realistic middle-term.

[CBGBConnisur]

Russia has been reinvigorated by its association with China, its not just about petro prices. Despite all this talk about a deep recession in the West, even with downgraded economic forecasts China will still grow at around 9 percent a year for the next decade. If they decide to float the RMB, which they probably will after 2010, then watch out because it will shoot up like a rocket to the moon against the Dollar and Euro. The Chinese were trying to slow down their superhot economy anyway.

An Obama Presidency will not be the end of Mideast conflict, in fact, countries such as Iran will become more assertive. Earlier this year there was talk of an Israeli attack on Iran after the US Presidential election if Obama wins. Its 95 percent likely Obama will be the next US President. Israelis will use the remainder of the Bush administration as a window of time to act against Tehran. Enjoy the cheaper oil and gas prices, they are not going to last.

[Doctor_Skank]

Russia has been reinvigorated by its association with China, its not just about petro prices. Despite all this talk about a deep recession in the West, even with downgraded economic forecasts China will still grow at around 9 percent a year for the next decade. If they decide to float the RMB, which they probably will after 2010, then watch out because it will shoot up like a rocket to the moon against the Dollar and Euro. The Chinese were trying to slow down their superhot economy anyway.

An Obama Presidency will not be the end of Mideast conflict, in fact, countries such as Iran will become more assertive. Earlier this year there was talk of an Israeli attack on Iran after the US Presidential election if Obama wins. Its 95 percent likely Obama will be the next US President. Israelis will use the remainder of the Bush administration as a window of time to act against Tehran. Enjoy the cheaper oil and gas prices, they are not going to last.I know we disagree on this, but personally I don't believe in "the Asian Century". I see much more parity in the world, and China will be a player but not the leader.

Also agree that Obama is the next president. I personally like a lot of what McCain stands for as a person, he's more liberal than you might think, but within the confines of his political party and hampered by both his aged view of the world and his woefully incompetent VP, I think Obama MUST win.

[CBGBConnisur]

The Chindians are already forcing many of us to reethink our own personal energy policies. People are already thinking of more fuel efficient cars instead of tanks on rubber wheels known as SUVs. There will always be a few getting super rich in America, but I think the middle class over there is supremely screwed. I don't think Obama is going to change the way America works, making America a more fair society, that is wishful thinking. Its the mass media that controls the population more than anyone else, and the media is controlled by wealthy elites. Obama hangs out with celebs and limo liberals who are wealthy people with liberal views. To me both the Democrats and Republicans are for the rich but differ in social and international policies.

The EU ministers were in talks this weekend and the biggest bomb they dropped was the repudiation of Bretton Woods, that was the agreement that declared the US dollar as the world reserve currency. Sarkozy mentioned that the global financial system will have to "rearranged". That does not sound good if you ask me. The EU system will never succeed in America, just no way it will happen without a massive social change in the US. Americans still equate smaller European autos for example as a sign of economic inferiority. I always hear about US troops in Germany complain about the size of houses over there.

I actually like McCain but my opinion of him has nosedived since he chose Sarah Palin. I would have thought different if he chose Mitt Romney.

[Opebo]

There is still plenty of time for the situation to reverse for Obama, alas. He's only narrowly ahead in lots of states that he needs to win, such as Colorado, Nevada, Virginia, and even Pennsylvania. He does seem to have Wisconsin and Iowa locked up. I don't however take seriously the polls that suggest he has a chance in Ohio, Missouri, North Carolina, or Florida. We should all remember that american racism will probably remove about 3% to 5% from his standing in the polls when it comes to actual voting.

As for doubting his propensity for redistribution - certainly it is reasonable to understand that no one will ever be allowed near power in the US who would threaten the 'private' property of the owning class. But the fact remains that the only way out of a depression is the application of Keyensian economics. The kneejerk reaction of the rich was against FDR as well, but his policies benefited them far more than the working class.

[Doctor_Skank]

There will always be a few getting super rich in America, but I think the middle class over there is supremely screwed. I don't think Obama is going to change the way America works, making America a more fair society, that is wishful thinking. Its the mass media that controls the population more than anyone else, and the media is controlled by wealthy elites. And this disparity that you feel is America's doom is even more predominant in China, India and Russia. Their economies are in growth mode, there are very few mistakes to be made in a booming economy... everything works despite gross incompetence and corruption on the part of officials, politicians and business people.

They'll have to prove their mettle... and the resiliency of their economies... when growth flattens out and the economy actually has to function.

Get some popcorn.

[Bango Cheito]

The one thing no Americans on here want to admit is just how WASTEFUL America is. THAT is what is going to be its biggest undoing. Americans have many ingrained wasteful habits. Some are not so easily fixable in a 4 year presidential term. The biggest problem is that America has allowed several cities to be built practically from the ground up on a model of inefficiency and wasteful use of space. The next biggest problem is that America actually DISMANTLED the world's second-best rail system half a century ago and now we have very poor infrastructure in the area of transportation. None of these are easily solvable and they are going to cost America dearly in the long run.

I say next thing that happens is OPEC drops the dollar, and another big major terrorist attack will happen on US soil, and you can kiss the dollar goodbye all over again.

[Cruiser D]

Once oil boy W is out of office there will be a huge surge in ‘alternative’ energy. History has shown that OPEC will combat emerging tech and alternatives by dropping oil down to nothing in order to crush it. $50/barrel? We’ll probably see $20 again. Fossil fuels have a shelf life of another 20 years as the primary lube that drives the economic machine.

Once again I don’t know where you’ve been, but the Israelis have been going solo for the last 8 years. W was no friend to them. Then again one of the biggest mistake in US foreign policy for the last 60 years has been allowing Israel to drive US foreign policy in the Middle East.

The Russian stock market has lost 65% of its value since May. Banks aren’t allowing depositors free access to their money. Where exactly do you get your news from, do you just make this stuff up or get all you news from Op-Ed pieces.

90% of China like the FSU is a crap hole. If the world economy tanks who do you think the Chinese are going to sell their products to? Their large and strong middle class? Don’t think so – bye Chinese economy. How do you think the emerging middle class in China is affording all their shiny new toys? On credit of course, oops. Let’s see what the situation in China is like in 6-8 months.

You guys seem to let ideology drive your arguments in this section, you seem to get opinions confused with facts and history. CBGB, you are so far off in the fringe it’s no wonder that you take Ron Paul as gospel, what are you a Euro anyway?

The whole world has benefited from W being in office at the expense of the US. He’s gone in January, get ready for a surging dollar, plunging oil, and the implosion of second world economies. If you don’t count the EU as a ‘country’ the US is the only country in the world that has a self sustaining economy, not only that, but as recent events have shown the US economy drives the worlds economy. Could China take over? No way, could a super EU country? Maybe, but how far off is that? 50 years? As the Doctor said, parity? Maybe but by looking at the players and the map I just don’t see it.

The only reason why the world economy hasn’t plunged into another Great Depression is because the US government is doing all it can to stave it off. Just as we saved the world’s collective ass three times in the 20th Century – my apologies to Eastern Europe and Africa. The rest of you can just send us Thank You notes.



Oil going to $50 a barrel, maybe but not for long. Even with an Obama administration putting the chances of a military confrontation with Iran as very remote, I bet Israel will step up and there will be a rumble between the two, that will guarantee oil will climb up. Israelis are already preparing for an Obama administration and they will go alone against Iran without the US for the first time in history.

China and Russia are the two of the fastest BRICs countries, the RMB is starting to appreciate against the Dollar, and their economy will still grow 10 percent per annum. This means by 2020, China will have a bigger economy than the US. As far as oppression is concerned, you did not read about the US military will be called in to stop any kind of domestic insurrection if an economic collapse hits the US. America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality. Obama will not repeal the Patriot Act, and in reality will use it to finalize Bush's plans to turn the US into full police State.

Obama is going to be left with an economy in ruins and he will become a scapegoat. There are many regions of the US where he is not popular, probably any red state. You should have heard the angry comments made by Republican supporters at McCain rallies.

The Bush administration was able to lower taxes and fight a war because of foreign buyers of US Treasuries, mostly the Saudis and the Chinese.

The long run trend is an increase in the price of oil. I bet by 2018, oil will be at minimum around $300 a barrel. The world reached peak production in the 1970s and now the Asians are set to place increasing stress on the world's resources, there is no way oil will get cheaper, give a break, the stuff is running out and it will be years before the West will break its oil dependence...if ever.

If Americans did not need credit to live large or merely just live, why is Wall Street panicking???

Oh yeah, I have been visiting China regularly over the past several years, I can tell you that while there is a lot of third world poverty, the country is progressing like no other nation in history.

The US is turning into a police state:
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/march2005/170305runningman.htm

I also got news for you, even though Jorg Haider had an accident you should have heard what Austrians said about this man, they called him a "a good man", Haider was a Nazi sympathizer and most Austrians were upset about his passing. This was the same guy who called former SS Wafen "heroes". NPD is gaining traction in East Germany, Far right groups are gaining power all over Europe. So watch for the EU to turn into facist police state, especially with Islamic terror in Europe, nuclear Iran, and a reinvigorated Russia.

Ron Paul tells it like it is, he ain't living in an "alternate" reality:
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr062702.htm

[Bango Cheito]

People all over the world are hurting right now because the US is hurting and the US is the center of world finance. The rest of the world will NOT make that mistake again. They will figure out how to do business without Uncle Sam in the middle, and QUICKLY.

Alternative energy HAH! Dream on! You obviously haven't travelled very much because if you did you'd know how far the US is BEHIND on energy.

China will become internally self-sufficient in the next 5 years. They are much further along than you even imagine. And when they do they will change ALL the rules of the game. Brazil is ALREADY self-sufficient. They have spent the last 15 years working on it, and despite the bad press they have done a great job. The Bovespa is way down but it never counted for much anyways. Unlike in America, the stock market going down won't crash the whole economy over there.

You people in the "Obama will fix everything" camp are just living in a dream world, and you have NO idea how fucked up things have actually gotten.

[Cruiser D]

How do the Chinese plan on becoming self sufficient with 85% of their population living in destitution, or is that the plan?

Brazil? Is Brazil a 2nd or 3rd world country? I think Brazil has always been self sufficient, much in the same way Chad or Somalia has always been self sufficient.

I'm not in the Obama 'camp' and I obviously have a better understand of things that you could hope.

[CBGBConnisur]

America is not as unequal as China or India...yet. Its still a fair society compared to most developing nations. China is a police state and India is a wannabe democracy that is really a police state. China's middle class accounts for 20 percent of the population, nearly 300 million people, and its only going to get bigger. Lets see what America will look like another 10 to 15 years, the days of easy credit in America are gone, and this is going to squeeze the middle class like never before in American history. I am already aware of the wide disparity in Asia, but the US has always been considered to be more egalitarian, and that will not be the case in the near future.

So if you're not supporting Obama, then you are for Sarah Palin?? She is for alternative energy. LOL. More like offshore drilling. You do know that there is a 1 in 4 chance she will take over for McCain if he wins, which considering the wide lead that Obama has, is just not going to happen. I hope you realize that
McCain will just be another Bush, he has agreed 90 percent of the time with Bush, and Palin is so obvious, she is controlled by the oil companies.

Alan Greenspan recently hinted that the Euro could become the currency of choice in the not too distant future. Frankly I place Mr. Greenspan's credibility way above any anonymous poster, I would definitely listen to him. Jim Roberts and George Soros have not been too bullish about the US Dollar, neither has Warren Buffet. If people like that are losing faith in the Greenback it speaks volumes. The Euro is quickly becoming an alternative currency for international business, Bango Cheito is right, the world is not going to repeat the mistake of relying on the US financial system. Stephen Roach who actually worked for my former employer, is also a big Dollar bear, and he is also hinting that the US Dollar is going to implode. The EU is definitely not a country but it is an example of supranational cooperation, and once they kick out the British, there will be no opposition to giving Brussels full federal powers.

I am anticipating a major military conflict in the Middle East between Israel and Iran, the possibility of a war between the two is becoming close to 90 percent. Israel will probably launch an attack on Iran after the election in November and before Obama becomes inaugurated. This is going to be historic because it will be the first time in many years that Israel will launch a major military operation without the blessing of the US government.

No I am not a Euro, I am an American residing overseas.

[CBGBConnisur]

Once again I don’t know where you’ve been, but the Israelis have been going solo for the last 8 years. W was no friend to them. Then again one of the biggest mistake in US foreign policy for the last 60 years has been allowing Israel to drive US foreign policy in the Middle East.


I guess you are not a Democrat or a Republican, both parties kowtow to Israel. The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful within the USA. The Libertarians are also Pro Mikvah, after all Gene Simmons is a member and one of the biggest Zionists in Rock and Roll. Washington was with Israel up until two years ago after Israel failed to destroy Hezbollah in Lebanon. The US just sent Israel a brand new ballistic missile radar system to compliment their Arrow missile defense. If Israel was really ignored by America, why do both Obama and McCain highlight their dedication to the Middle Eastern nation??

America has been blessed like no other nation in history but things are beginning to change. In the not too distant the future the US will just be another nation.

[George90]

I am anticipating a major military conflict in the Middle East between Israel and Iran, the possibility of a war between the two is becoming close to 90 percent. Israel will probably launch an attack on Iran after the election in November and before Obama becomes inaugurated. This is going to be historic because it will be the first time in many years that Israel will launch a major military operation without the blessing of the US government.

I am concerned about that. Israel will probably attack Iran. We, the US, have been turning a blind eye to their attacks on the Palestinians. So the Israelis that all their enemies are as weak as the Palestinians, even though Hezbollah put on a good showing in 2006.

My point is the Iran is NOT Gaza or the West Bank. The Iranians are NOT weak. An agressor who does not overwhelm his victim and leaves the raid a draw, really loses. There is no way Israel can overwhelm Iran without nukes, so Israel is going to be the loser.

Furthermore, Iran wants to solidy its influence over Iraq. Check this out! Iraq and Iran fight a war. Bush calls Iran part of an Axis of Evil. Then Bush takes down the enemy of Iran. HUH???!??!?!?!? A confrontation with Israel will be a perfect excuse to invade part of Iraq under the guise of trying to protect Iraq's airspace from Israeli intrusions. Iran will end up having influence from Afghanistan to the Mediterranean through Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon. Is that supposed to be the way to contain an enemy???!!!???

So we have let the tail wag the dog for so long that we don't know one end from the other. Israel will atack Iran and the Mid-East situation will become worse for us and better for Iran.

[Bango Cheito]

CB kinda already said it but...

you're right. The world is a very unequal place. And America through its extreme mismanagement has lost its edge and is about to join the party. It's going to be a real ***** walking 5 miles to the store to get bread because everything was built for when everybody could have their own car.

I don't relish the idea of China becoming a superpower and exercising hegemony the way the US has done in the past, it would be WAY worse. But it's a very strong possibility we had all better prepare for.


How do the Chinese plan on becoming self sufficient with 85% of their population living in destitution, or is that the plan?

Brazil? Is Brazil a 2nd or 3rd world country? I think Brazil has always been self sufficient, much in the same way Chad or Somalia has always been self sufficient.

I'm not in the Obama 'camp' and I obviously have a better understand of things that you could hope.

[Leeuwen]

I don't relish the idea of China becoming a superpower.
There won't be any superpowers in true sense of the word. Superpowers like those during the Cold War are gone. There are too many, too powerful nations/blocks today, to let anyone truly dominate.

This decade, U.S will use India to balance growing power of China, until China runs into problems of its own. People tend to forget intense dissatisfaction among polulation in rural and coastal China. Dreadful enviroment policies (food and toy scandals), the fact that China still is dictatorship, and probability the average Chinese starts to demand human rights as his/her income rises.

[Leeuwen]

90% of China like the FSU is a crap hole. If the world economy tanks who do you think the Chinese are going to sell their products to? Their large and strong middle class? Don’t think so – bye Chinese economy.
So you think China and rest of the world are still alive and kicking thanks to U.S consumers? Talking about egocentricity.

First of all, U.S market, like most western markets are saturated. Most multinationals have moved to so called emerging markets for two reasons. Cheaper production costs, AND proximity to consumers. Take cell phone manufacturers as an example. Latest models are introduced first in countries like Russia, then EU, then the USA.
How many consumers are there in the USA? Total population is ~300mln. In China has middle class of 200-300mln, same goes for India. EU total population is over 500mln.

Finally, do you really think average American becomes more or less wealthy in foreseeable future?
Do you think his/her impact on global economy will increase or decrease?



Could China take over? No way, could a super EU country? Maybe, but how far off is that? 50 years? As the Doctor said, parity? Maybe but by looking at the players and the map I just don’t see it.

50 years? The Same was said about everything else EU was about to undertake, inclusive the Euro currency. EU is worlds biggest economy today. Enough said. Moreover, the "global" financial crisis has hit only those European banks, who have been involved in American sub-prime credit business. Not surprisingly, British banks were most affected.



The only reason why the world economy hasn’t plunged into another Great Depression is because the US government is doing all it can to stave it off. Just as we saved the world’s collective ass three times in the 20th Century – my apologies to Eastern Europe and Africa. The rest of you can just send us Thank You notes.

Let me see. It couldn't be in WWI, definitely not in WWII, and when was the 3rd time? Are you sure you haven't watched "Saving Private Ryan" too many times?

[Cruiser D]

I'll put in this way, you guys have some interesting views that run against conventional wisdom. The future will bear you out as prophets or crackpots. I think you can guess as to watch side of the coin I'm going with. CBGB, you already got your 15 minutes so unless you say something interesting that’s it for you.

Leeuwen, China is an export nation. What's going to happen when no one is buying their goods? And I'm not just talking about the US. The last domino to fall in this global burn out will be China..and since there is no domino to cushion their fall it will be the hardest.

Using the model of cell phone shows how little you truly understand the driving forces behind things. But have no problem at all venturing a forceful opinion about it. The reason why the latest and greatest mobile phone are introduced in Asia, then Europe and finally the US is because consumers in Asia and to a now slightly lesser extent in Europe use their mobiles the way American's use their desktop/notebooks and broadband connections. Also the US mobile market is extremely restricted by both the two major players, ATT and Verzion (partially owned by Vondaphone I believe) and the FCC.

The average American unfortunately has a huge impact on foreign markets, mostly 2nd and 3rd world. Have you ever gone shopping at the world’s largest retailer, Walmart?

The EU has been kicking around since what, 1957? Didn't become an active force until the early 90's Yeah, I think 50 years is a good time frame. Yes, you are right, the global crisis has only affected Euro banks associated with the US. Obviously you never heard of these things called 'stock markets'. Care to give us a recap of the Euro markets over the last 30 days? The EU was organized and currently stands as a trade organization. It may (will) become something more then that but it will be awhile.

Without the US the outcome of WW2 would have been markedly different, from supplying the Allies during our 'neutrality' to being the catalyst for offensive action in the ETO to almost single handed winning the PTO.

Who was a major driving force of the rebuilding of Europe after WW2? Both Allies and Axis. Who rebuilt Japan?

Who won the Cold war and kept Soviet aggression in check?

Of course as an American I also concede that we sold out Eastern Europe in Yalta in 1945 and it took us more then 40 years to correct that mistake. We have and also continue to turn a blind eye to most of Africa.

[CBGBConnisur]

So where is the 20 dollar a barrel oil coming from? That completely contradicts most major analysts predictions for oil prices. And where is the fuel alternative CruiserD, I would love to invest in the company that ends America's oil dependence, why keep it a secret? Let me guess is its Sarah Palin's farts?? Since you are not in the Obama camp, I am guessing McCain, yet you blame W for the current state of world affairs, how exactly will Palin-McCain differ? Just because McCain said he is not W??!! But since you do not like the USA's bend over for Israel policy I doubt you are a Palin fan, she has an Israeli flag in her office in Alaska. I never knew that Alaska had a large Jewish population.
Palin looks more like a Jewish mom from Long Island than an Alaskan hockey mom. ROFLMAO.

I think America is a great country but its has a big pain in the ass to deal with, no not Iran but Israel which constantly forces us into fruitless wars and other misadventures in the Muslim world. When the US stops supporting Israel it will be a great thing for America. Right now every important US politician kisses Hebrew ass. I got nothing against Israel or Jews but they should just fight their own wars and leave us alone. I grew up around a lot of them and it really bugged me how so many proudly stated how they loved Israel yet lived in America, if I said I loved Britain and was proud of British culture, I would be accused of being a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Even more annoying is that many New York area Jews are among the most ultra liberal people you would meet, if you pick up the New York Times its the most America hating newspaper in the world, and many of their columnists are you guessed it, its kind of ironic considering that its the good old USA that has been the force that has protected the Jewish people in history. At the same time many of these loons love to talk up Europe, hello!!! The Europeans nearly wiped out Jews in the last World War, and frankly speaking most Europeans are still not exactly crazy about them.

My family traces their roots to Great Britain, and I am as American as they come, it really shocked me as a kid to find out when my dad sat down and told me that Jews not Anglosaxons run America. He was also explaining how its a good thing because he believes Jews are just more intelligent than goyim, good looking Blonde Anglos like me are just a front to make America look pretty to the world(the people do not want to see big noses LOL). I did not believe him but the events of the past eight years confirm this fact.

I already know the US was a great force in during WW2, so what is your point? I already know American consumers have a big impact on world markets, but these days the world economy is becoming more multipolar, Hank Paulson has been very multilateral in working with other nations, particularly the Europeans, Japanese, and of course China in fixing this mess, he even said the US cannot go it alone in solving this mess, we affect the world but now the world can affect us too.

[Balluba]

Palin looks more like a Jewish mom from Long Island than an Alaskan hockey mom. ROFLMAO.


I totally agree. A typicall Jewish Long Island mummy.

[CBGBConnisur]

Colin Powell will endorse Barack Obama this Sunday on Meet the Press, that will completely ruin the McCain campaign.

[DJ FourMoney]

truth be told, mccain of '00 would be far more livable then the current one controlled largely by the rnc. but its more of the fact he can't alienate the moderate base (the ones that will likely vote for obama) so he's alienated them by all this bill ayers nonsense. the zionist nutcases that like palin, mccain has to cater too because they out number the "real fiscal" republicans.

so that leaves him trying to excite the nutcase base and they love this kind of anti-american, left leaning hate speech. they just won't say "nigga" because 80% of the white population would distance themselves in a hot second from the republican party. that's the one word they can't say this season and get away it with and they know it.

"obamabucks" not withstanding... - http://www.obamabucks.net/

so with arabs/muslims being so low on the popularity list, its easy and "freely" allowed to attack them in public. who in the mainstream news media has the balls to say muslims or arabs aren't evil when middle america is so slow to understand anything intelligent????

look at projection map that cnn and msnbc use, the middle of the country is red out of ignorance if nothing else. the deep south is red as well, that's the problem with any kind of intelligent discussion in america, these people are too slow to understand anything that makes any sense and the republicans have been using race as a wedge issue since nixon ran for office, see "southern strategy".

however i largely think it won't work this time. but that hinges on a large turnout of minority and young voters; if the primaries are any indication and knowing that many voters didn't show up for michigan and florida primary elections, i'd hate to say it but the "l" word is starting to come up now (landslide).

what we now need to worry about is somebody trying to bump off obama....

if that were to happen my fellow isg'ers and for those you not in sex prison, consider yourself lucky, i'll have to find a way for everybody in my house to make it to lax and out of the country... i won't be here when the shit goes down, they rioted after mlk's death, no telling what would happen if they bumped obama off and us northcom is active if you haven't been paying attention.... police state anybody?

[CBGBConnisur]

Using the Barack Obama is a Muslim routine is a socially acceptable way to knock him down. Hilary Clinton started it during the nomination contest. Obama still leads by seven points, but I bet if it wasn't for those Muslim accusations he would be leading by at least 10.
Usually Jewish voters are very enthusiastic towards Democrats, but they seem very cold to Obama. They were cold to Kerry as well.

[Jelly Donut]

Okay but you have to remember, I don't recall anybody making $250,000 a year complaining that they pay too much tax. The truth is, most high income Americans AVOID paying taxes the best way they can, sometimes legally, sometimes NOT

Brace yourself.

There's nothing wrong with avoiding taxes. If you move from New York to Texas to avoid higher taxes that's not a crime. When you do the math remember this, we have a progressive income tax in the United States. The people who "avoid" paying taxes are the people who earn the least, the bottom 50 percent of wage earners in the US collectively pay about 4 percent of the what the government takes in each year; they pay a much smaller percent of thier income too.

Like most taxpaying Americans, I don't have a big problem with a progressive income tax - I used to earn low wages myself - but if you apply an even morality to everyone who files a tax return, you can't escape that the people who are "avoiding" taxes the most are the people who contribute the least to the economy. Higher income Americans create the most decent jobs, they also pay most of the overall tax burden. Almost all of it.

How much money do you think you would need in order to create a really good paying job? Using an ISG example, say you wanted to hire Ashley Dupree or one of her friends to come over every Friday night for a year - that's around $250,000. You've got to be pulling down some respectable coin to create that kind of opportunity. When the government comes along and raises your taxes, you can not escape revisiting your budget. That's not a promising situation for Ashley. You could probably get by with half as many blow jobs a year. All the sudden, Ashley is making $125,000. That gives her something to complain about. Maybe those taxes prompt you to consider the less costly opportunites overseas.



Germans for example go to school for free, even to become a doctor but only get paid about $35-40K a year


"More than 12,500 German doctors are working abroad already, and 2,300 left the country in 2005 alone, according to the doctors' association, the Marburger Bund...Low salaries are one of the main reasons. Favoccia is making $2,900 a month after taxes in Duesseldorf, but at the University Hospital in Amsterdam he will earn $8,150 after deductions — and work fewer hours."

[Jelly Donut]

Israel will probably attack Iran
How would Isreal launch any conventional military attack without crossing de facto American airspace? Turkey is in NATO and the Isrealis have some kind of security arrangement with them. I'm not convinced the Turks would allow an overflight. They can fall back on Article 5 of the NATO charter, right?

Isreal can't fly over Iraq or the Persian Gulf without the Americans going along with it. Iran would treat it as an American attack. The Americans still have a lot of options with the Iranians. So, for that and a spectrum of other reasons, if Isreal decided to "go it alone" I'd figure the American would try to shoot thier planes down.

[Jelly Donut]

....bread because everything was built for when everybody could have their own car.

I don't relish the idea of China becoming a superpower and exercising hegemony the way the US has done in the past, it would be WAY worse. But it's a very strong possibility we had all better prepare for.

Have you ever read "How Buidlings Learn: What happens after they're built" by Stewart Brand? Mostly, it's about how structures adapt through different functionalities over time. I like the McDonald's off the Jericho Turnpike on Long Island. Buildings adapt to changing times.

Comparing the United States and China in conventional great power terms is like comparing apples and oranges. China borders Pakistan. China borders North Korea. China has been involved in shooting wars with nearly all of it's neighbors over the course of the past 60 years. It has unresolved border disputes with at least three nuclear powers. Think Germany 1866-1945. The stronger it gets, the more it's neighbors are going freak out.

China has some concerning demographics, something like 20 percent more men than women. That's a big deal when your country represents a huge chunk of the global population. The odd thing that worries me about that is the prospect of all those hard-up young guys trying to get laid. It's got to amount to 100 million guys without a partner. It's not like you can let 'em all lose in Havana for the weekend.

In contrast, at it's core, the United States is insular. The last time we exchanged gunfire in any significant way with either the Canadians or Mexicans was before the American Civil War. I think we are the second largest Spanish-speaking country in the world now, or we soon will be, and that matches up nicely with our position as the second-largest English speaking country (not much point to learning Hindi or Urdu in my opinion). For the most part, we can pick and choose our fights. If CHGB is right, and it all boils down to chess, then the USA is the piece with the most dynamic energy and freedom of movement and it's likely to remain so, barring something that ends the game.

[DJ FourMoney]

Brace yourself.

There's nothing wrong with avoiding taxes. If you move from New York to Texas to avoid higher taxes that's not a crime. When you do the math remember this, we have a progressive income tax in the United States. The people who "avoid" paying taxes are the people who earn the least, the bottom 50 percent of wage earners in the US collectively pay about 4 percent of the what the government takes in each year; they pay a much smaller percent of thier income too.

Like most taxpaying Americans, I don't have a big problem with a progressive income tax - I used to earn low wages myself - but if you apply an even morality to everyone who files a tax return, you can't escape that the people who are "avoiding" taxes the most are the people who contribute the least to the economy. Higher income Americans create the most decent jobs, they also pay most of the overall tax burden. Almost all of it.

How much money do you think you would need in order to create a really good paying job? Using an ISG example, say you wanted to hire Ashley Dupree or one of her friends to come over every Friday night for a year - that's around $250,000. You've got to be pulling down some respectable coin to create that kind of opportunity. When the government comes along and raises your taxes, you can not escape revisiting your budget. That's not a promising situation for Ashley. You could probably get by with half as many blow jobs a year. All the sudden, Ashley is making $125,000. That gives her something to complain about. Maybe those taxes prompt you to consider the less costly opportunites overseas.




"More than 12,500 German doctors are working abroad already, and 2,300 left the country in 2005 alone, according to the doctors' association, the Marburger Bund...Low salaries are one of the main reasons. Favoccia is making $2,900 a month after taxes in Duesseldorf, but at the University Hospital in Amsterdam he will earn $8,150 after deductions — and work fewer hours."

Okay Small Business is the largest creator of jobs in the country.... I know

But how many boats, vacations, expensive cars and McMansions do you have to own? Wait better yet, who you trying to impress???

Recently on one of the lefty shows I love, a professor/economist had interviewed several bus drivers in Sweden and several owned homes free and clear and had boats or other pleasure items.

In this country that's Unionized labor and I know personally one of my good friends has worked for Los Angeles Metro (formerly RTD) since he got out of the Army in the mid-80's. He's maxed out at $22.45 an hour, I think that's just under 40K after taxes.

What can he afford? A '07 Mitsubishi EVO9 MR - $39K

In fact both the cars he and his wife have are less than 4 years old ('04 Nissan Altima SE), but he can't afford to own a boat or take his wife out on an expensive cruise or any of this stuff Europeans generally take for granted, with 33 days of paid vacation as I found on an Expat forum of people living in The Netherlands.

Speaking of The Netherlands; One poster was trying to see if it was worth his MBA and 150K a year Investment Banker position going "Dutch" and Expats spent 5 pages worth trying to convince the guy that can't compare wages and cost to the US, you might end up disappointed.

Okay, I'll be even more honest....

I don't pay much tax, I made $25K in '06 less since then. But in California that's basically "Working Poor". My manager who makes quite a bit more cannot afford both a new car and his apartment! I made a choice after leaving truck driving, I wanted a easy to do, low stress position. I currently don't have health care and even though I rarely get sick, I'm taking a chance every time I crank up my car or run it down the drag strip.

But many Corporations don't pay tax at all! Yet have their hand out to the Government when something goes wrong - See Investment Banks, Commercial Banks and Credit Card Companies.

Castro Nieves is out on 1.5 Million dollar bail for the IRS discovering his tax shelter and there rumors that many IRL Indy Car stars are scared they might get found if Helio turns State's "Stool Pigeon". Rich people DON'T PAY taxes and just WHO is Castro Nieves creating JOBS for????

If somebody starts up their own widget factory, he gets money usually from the SBA and local banks , never mind that the money is lost about 60% of the time as that's the rate small businesses fail in the US.

Using my current employer as an example, to keep their CEO's pay at around $800K before bonuses, they have cut back on employee training, taken away the service that cleans and polishes our floors and now subjects us to increasing our responsibility in them providing health care. Can I add that starting in '07 they had a freeze on employee raises, but have been through 2 CEO's since '06.

I got a NICKLE raise in '06 and not one since then. Yet food has gone up 35% and fuel about the same rate.

Now most business owners would see a net tax increase but what impact would that have? You can find a tax cut in something else, like hiring more people, adding solar panels to your roof, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I don't have a problem with taxes that's how things get done, its also responsible for our bloated Military budget along with giving left handed people a loan to help them with college.

I get NO HELP from the State or Federal Government for ANYTHING! I guess I could get on California's State Auto Insurance Plan but I'm not complaining I spend to much on insurance....

While I can't avoid paying taxes, Rich people can, which then the Government forces the IRS on the Middle Class since they pay most of it. And you know, back before all this Republican tax cut nonsense Rich people in the 60's where not bitching about paying too much tax... They aren't complaining now.

Businesses might complain but then how come its only AARP, Medical Doctors and 70% of Americans want Single Payer Health Care which would get companies off the HOOK and they aren't jumping up and down supporting it???

[Leeuwen]

Leeuwen, China is an export nation. What's going to happen when no one is buying their goods?
Well, I thought I just made a point about China's domestic market. Apparently I was wrong. Let make another attempt.
America was/is an export nation too, until it's trade balance went ape. Chinese domestic market is growing every year, and China is as important to its trading partners as vice versa. Besides, without having current figures, China's trade with EU might be worth even more than with the U.S. Please, stop thinking China will somehow collaps the day America stops buying its products. Oh, and guess who holds most US dollars out there.



reason why the latest and greatest mobile phone are introduced in Asia, then Europe and finally the US is because consumers in Asia and to a now slightly lesser extent in Europe use their mobiles the way American's use their desktop/notebooks and broadband connections.
Oh, but then please explain why launching 3G enabled phones in Russia, if there is almost no (if completely no-existant) 3G networks? Again, this is about saturated markets and emerging markets. Why do you think Norwegian Telenor is dominant in... Bangladesh(!)? The anwser is future customers.

Another example - This year, Russia has surpassed Germany as the most important car market in Europe. All car manufacturers fight to open production facilities in St. Petersburg. Audi sells major part of it's upper class models (A6, A8, Q7) to... Russia.




The average American unfortunately has a huge impact on foreign markets, mostly 2nd and 3rd world. Have you ever gone shopping at the world’s largest retailer, Walmart?
Haha, you did my day, indeed. No, thanks God I'm not 'fortunate' to shop at Walmart. Wait, didn't Walmart try to open stores in Germany, but had to go home again, since customers 'let it down'? ;)
So, if we take Walmart or Swedish IKEA as example for indirect employers of foot chained kids working for nothing, somewhere in Pakistan, then you translate it into 'average American consumer's inpact on global economy'? Give me a break.


The EU was organized and currently stands as a trade organization. It may (will) become something more then that but it will be awhile.
Who are you kidding? EU is far from only a trading block. Latest involvement in the Georgia crisis and EU summits were hardly about economy. Time to wake up.


Who won the Cold war and kept Soviet aggression in check?
I guess America did all this of pure courtsey?
Look, if the U.S didn't step in in the end of WWII, Sovets would 'liberate' entire Europe and your days would be numbered, ok?
Same foreign policy was applied during the Cold War. Better to fight the enemy on foreign soil than right home in America. What allies would America have if W.Europe fell into Russian hands? The U.S would have become surrounded by Soviets. Don't forget Soviets applied, and still apply same analogy. Better to keep so called buffer states and fight proxy wars, than let the enemy on Russian soil.
The British made last payment for your 'help' in WWII just last year, if I'm not misinformed. So stop claiming nonsense of saving someone's ass.

[Cruiser D]

Leeuwen, do you work for the Republican party in the US? What's up with distorting my quotes and then replying to them?

Of course some mobile companies are interested in expanding into emerging markets to get more market share and presumably make more money. What does that have to do about why the latest and greatest enabled mobile is the last to show up in the US or doesn't show up at all?

I'm sure Audi isn't selling too many cars in Russia at the moment. I wonder if the Russians know the term 'repo man' yet.

Walmart is anti labor, it's no big surprise they got the bum rush in Germany. Besides Metro - where I have shopped many a time, who bought out Walmart in Germany was/is about ten years ahead of Walmart in the way they did business with supercenters and what not. My point, which you seemingly missed, is that Walmart is the world’s biggest retailer. The EU, thanks to mostly France and Germany still have a highly protectionism market. The US, not so much. I'd be happy if the Chinese just sold their products to their emerging market, or even just that part of the world. I don't think the Chinese would be as happy. My point for China and other exporter nations in general is if the US Government set up a zero balance trade system a lot of 'emerging' economies would be in trouble.

Your mentioning of the EU and Georgia brings my point home about the EU. Isn't it Sarkozy and France who is running point on the whole Georgia thing? And he isn't doing it in the name of the EU. It made me sick to see W the clueless sitting next to Putin in Bejing when Russia was attacking Georgia.

Even if the Russians were able to defeat Germany without our supplies or the diversion of a 2nd and 3rd front. I hardly doubt they could have taken Western Europe or if they had they would have found themselves in the same position as the German, with the exception they would now be facing a foe in sole possession of nuclear bombs and B-29’s.

As for the British repaying their debt from WW2 that is hardly the full story. They repaid a 4.34 Billion dollar loan Truman gave them in 1945 at 2% interest. The 4.34 billion was twice as large as the British economy at the time. But I don't think we got anything for all the supplies and other loans. Actually if I remember correctly FDR forgave the monies owed to us by Britain for all the resources we gave them during our ‘neutrality’ when the US officially joined the war in 1941. We did get some lease rights to bases for 50 WWI destroyers in 1940.

[CBGBConnisur]

How would Isreal launch any conventional military attack without crossing de facto American airspace? Turkey is in NATO and the Isrealis have some kind of security arrangement with them. I'm not convinced the Turks would allow an overflight. They can fall back on Article 5 of the NATO charter, right?

Isreal can't fly over Iraq or the Persian Gulf without the Americans going along with it. Iran would treat it as an American attack. The Americans still have a lot of options with the Iranians. So, for that and a spectrum of other reasons, if Isreal decided to "go it alone" I'd figure the American would try to shoot thier planes down.

Well New York and Miami are defacto Israeli airspace. The US is leaving Iraq anyway.

Americans will never pull a hair on a Jewish head, you obviously have no clue about our nation's government.

[Leeuwen]

hi cruiser. me republican, right? ;) politically independent. seen too much of ideology driven bs and grown wise. so, at the moment, in lack of other duties, i simply express my highly personal views on a monger site. don't ask me why.

unfortunately i can't find audi statistics for russian market, but the figures were substantial as i remember them, and vast share were pricier models.


audi sold 964,151 cars in 2007 worldwide (http://www.articlesbase.com/automotive-articles/audi-sells-964151-cars-worldwide-in-2007-306857.html)
in europe 686,480 cars in 2007
germany 254,014
uk sold 100,712 cars
usa 93,506
asia (mainly china & hk) 134,176
africa and middle east 27,866


growth in car market units, all brands, 2007 (per cent) (http://www.ebrd.com/pubs/factsh/themes/autorus.pdf)
russia 35
western europe 0
worldwide 6

car sales volume, 2007 (millions)
russia 2.8 (3,8mln predicted for 2008)
north america 9.1
western europe 14.7
china 5.4
worldwide 49.0

so why do i present boring statistics? just insisting about investors heading to markets where money can be done in quickest possible way. customers in saturated markets won't necessary buy, even if majority of products are affordable. novelty of yet a new mobile phone is gone. western consumers, at least the ones i know, tend to think twice before buying a new car, simply because in terms of money it's one of the absolutely worst deals one can make. russians for instance, need to flaunt money, to gain respect in eyes of friends, neighbours. if you don't have it, you probably can't afford it, means you are loser. this kind of mentality is predominant among aspiring city folk in russia, and i'm sure our frequent visitors there can confirm it. heard similar stories about china, which also is a booming nation.



my point, which you seemingly missed, is that walmart is the world’s biggest retailer. the eu, thanks to mostly france and germany still have a highly protectionism market. the us, not so much.
...
...
my point for china and other exporter nations in general is if the us government set up a zero balance trade system a lot of 'emerging' economies would be in trouble.
i think you are repeating myths overheard from american media. first of all, france probably is the most protectionist nation in eu. correct. but throwing germany into the same basket. totally incorrect. add the netherlands or sweden, or even the uk, to illustrate very deregulated markets, and the picture becomes clear.

what exactly did i miss from your walmart example?
perhaps something like this: walmart as world's biggest retailer sells china made junk, and as such, it could easily put chinese economy on the verge of collaps "if the us government set up a zero balance trade system".
great, somehow the us government doesn't seem to be determined to do anything about trade deficit, and guess what - in 2007 eu's trade deficit with china was €157bln (http://www.eubusiness.com/china/eu-china-trade.08)(¨$232bln), while us' was $256bln (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2007).
so much for eu's "protectionism". add quite interesting fact though - half of production facilities in china are foreign owned. who is behind foreign investments in china, and why aren't governtments of eu ans us anything about it? just a hint. why does it say 'made in china' on many nokia and ericsson models sold in eu and us?


your mentioning of the eu and georgia brings my point home about the eu. isn't it sarkozy and france who is running point on the whole georgia thing? and he isn't doing it in the name of the eu. it made me sick to see w the clueless sitting next to putin in bejing when russia was attacking georgia.

hate to be lengthy, risking the core of my post to get lost.
sarkozy acts in the name of eu, as current holder of (rotaing) presidency, even though not in the name of average european. besides, whoever would hold it at the moment, he/she would bark in the same way. i can't recall such breathtaking desinformation campaign in media about the whole georgia conflict. however bbc's 'have your say' section was cluttered with pro-russian posts, so obviously public hasn't been fooled this time.
dubbya clueless? eh, come on... who do you think sent hundreds of american military advisors to georgia? some of them were killed and indetified as "blacks" in russian media. israeli advisors were also there.
either it was an attempt to proxy war and test how far you might go before russia said halt, or what i think, a suicidial act of an obscure regime in tblisi, thinking it had carte blanche and security guarantees from the west. what a miscalculation. finally i hope shakashvili the clown, once and for all stops using eu flag during tv speeches from his office. georgia is not an eu country, and god help us it never will be.

[Leeuwen]

The Americans still have a lot of options with the Iranians. So, for that and a spectrum of other reasons, if Isreal decided to "go it alone" I'd figure the American would try to shoot thier planes down.
Namely, what options? You can bomb all fanatics in Iran back to the stone age, but if just one of them, sets off a dirty B in London, NY or other centers of West, we lose. So for now, Iran is fed with both whip and carrots. Doesn't work very well, and I'm sure there is no quick fix. Any suggestions?

US pilots shooting down Israelis - Don't make me laugh. Israelis already got a 'no' regarding access to Iraqi airspace. Also, Israeli jets can't make it to Iran and back without refueling, as possible air combat is taken into account.

There won't be any conventional invasion either. You can quote me on this.

[CBGBConnisur]

So Iran will then be allowed to go nuclear? I think that is a horrible idea. It would be great if Israel would get rid of Iran's nukes. Iran has also threatened Europe, I could see a conflict brewing between Iran and the EU in the coming years.

There will be no invasion or firefight between Iran and the Anglo nations, but I think something is on the horizon for the EU and Iran. Once a more a right wing government takes control of Germany it will lead to a major historic push, a revival of Germany's military. Russia and Germany recently formulated an agreement, historically, when both nations do this, its usually a prelude to a major military conflict.

The Germans could easily retool those factories to build missiles, tanks, aircraft, instead of Audis and BMWs. Now that the EU is beginning to work as an integrated economic unit, it does not sound far fetched. The A380 is the first aircraft that is partially designed and constructed in Germany although most of it is constructed in France, and its engine was designed in Britain.

[DJ FourMoney]

Well, I thought I just made a point about China's domestic market. Apparently I was wrong. Let make another attempt.
America was/is an export nation too, until it's trade balance went ape. Chinese domestic market is growing every year, and China is as important to its trading partners as vice versa. Besides, without having current figures, China's trade with EU might be worth even more than with the U.S. Please, stop thinking China will somehow collaps the day America stops buying its products. Oh, and guess who holds most US dollars out there.



Oh, but then please explain why launching 3G enabled phones in Russia, if there is almost no (if completely no-existant) 3G networks? Again, this is about saturated markets and emerging markets. Why do you think Norwegian Telenor is dominant in... Bangladesh(!)? The anwser is future customers.

Another example - This year, Russia has surpassed Germany as the most important car market in Europe. All car manufacturers fight to open production facilities in St. Petersburg. Audi sells major part of it's upper class models (A6, A8, Q7) to... Russia.




Haha, you did my day, indeed. No, thanks God I'm not 'fortunate' to shop at Walmart. Wait, didn't Walmart try to open stores in Germany, but had to go home again, since customers 'let it down'? ;)
So, if we take Walmart or Swedish IKEA as example for indirect employers of foot chained kids working for nothing, somewhere in Pakistan, then you translate it into 'average American consumer's inpact on global economy'? Give me a break.


Who are you kidding? EU is far from only a trading block. Latest involvement in the Georgia crisis and EU summits were hardly about economy. Time to wake up.


I guess America did all this of pure courtsey?
Look, if the U.S didn't step in in the end of WWII, Sovets would 'liberate' entire Europe and your days would be numbered, ok?
Same foreign policy was applied during the Cold War. Better to fight the enemy on foreign soil than right home in America. What allies would America have if W.Europe fell into Russian hands? The U.S would have become surrounded by Soviets. Don't forget Soviets applied, and still apply same analogy. Better to keep so called buffer states and fight proxy wars, than let the enemy on Russian soil.
The British made last payment for your 'help' in WWII just last year, if I'm not misinformed. So stop claiming nonsense of saving someone's ass.

Actually D the reason why we don't get more advanced phones faster in America is alot simpler than you think.

Americans as a WHOLE are STUPID and CHEAP.

Before DVR's got popular just how many people have 12:00 flashing on their VCR and no way to set it?

I'm not sure but I think 3 million Americans including my stepfather and John McCain have no desire to learn how to even send EMAIL.

The reason why providers have kept phones simple is because most people still complain about being able to make a frickin phone call! My mother mostly has a BB Curve so she can play Spades...

I blame some of this on phone companies. They put all the fun stuff on business phones for a long time and just recently started to put apps useful to the rest of us on regular lower cost "dumbphones".

I ordered a TMO G1 and I'm waiting for it to be delivered, this phone is WAY above most people's heads. I can do things with my Rokr E6 (which is an unlocked Asia-Pacific market Motorola) that mirror the first Iphone. I just don't have the nice browser and 30fps video playback, but its touch screen and Unlocked...

[DJ FourMoney]

So Iran will then be allowed to go nuclear? I think that is a horrible idea. It would be great if Israel would get rid of Iran's nukes. Iran has also threatened Europe, I could see a conflict brewing between Iran and the EU in the coming years.

There will be no invasion or firefight between Iran and the Anglo nations, but I think something is on the horizon for the EU and Iran. Once a more a right wing government takes control of Germany it will lead to a major historic push, a revival of Germany's military. Russia and Germany recently formulated an agreement, historically, when both nations do this, its usually a prelude to a major military conflict.

The Germans could easily retool those factories to build missiles, tanks, aircraft, instead of Audis and BMWs. Now that the EU is beginning to work as an integrated economic unit, it does not sound far fetched. The A380 is the first aircraft that is partially designed and constructed in Germany although most of it is constructed in France, and its engine was designed in Britain.

This is foolish thinking but with the wave of phone calls and emails to the Capital when the first Baliout plan came down, I think we're finally paying attention around.

Now take this with a gain of salt -

If we can keep that kind of focus on the Government who would quickly find themselves out of office if they kept trying to force silly things to happen, then we can expect NO ATTACK on Iran. We can expect serious talks between Iran, Palestinian, Israel and everybody else in the region.

To pay for the social changes and rebuilding of America, let's face it. We can't have Clandestine Wars or Wars period. It only enriches the MIC when frankly they can be put to work developing Fuel Cells, Hydrogen Power, Getting to a "Zero Waste" and increasing our supply of Fresh Water.

Anyway, change is coming. If its not I need to find a safe spot on the earth to chill in for the next 10 years or so.

[CBGBConnisur]

Jelly Donut just lost all credibility to me, US pilots shooting down Israeli jets??!!! What the fuck are you smoking?? Didn't you know Israel dominates American foreign policy and every politician in America including Obama fears Jews?? Everyone knows that when Israel tells the US government to jump, the US government says "How high??". The US military just gave Israel are most advanced radar system.
CruiserD's talk of $20 a barrel oil???!! Oh sure, production peaked over 30 years ago but demand has increased since China and India have joined the global economy, there is no way cheap oil is coming back with 40 percent of the world's population deciding they want to become capitalists.

[Jelly Donut]

Jelly Donut just lost all credibility to me, US pilots shooting down Israeli jets??!!! What the fuck are you smoking?? .

A Carlos Torano "Noventa". It was a bit hard to light the thing up, but I'm enjoying the overall experience.

As I understand it, the question was what happens if Isreali overflies Iraq in order to attack Iran. I don't see how that helps American foriegn policy overall (or even at all). If you use some imagination, you understand that such an attack would be considered an attack by the United States on Iran. It's not like the United States could simply say "Oh yeah, we just let those guys fly over Iraq. Didn't think much of it at the time. Sorry." The assumption everyone would make would be that the United States has authorized it.

It would complicate the US position with Arab states, probably reverse what gains we see in Iraq, perhaps ingite a complete war with Iran. I don't think that's a direction the USA (or Isreal or Iran) wants to go in. But that was the question.

Back in the Second World War, the British ended up sinking the French fleet. That was something unlikely, but that's how the politics spun out. This is similiar territory. Based on your posts, I'm convinced you've got the imagination to see - an Isreali overflight of Iraq would not be in American interests, the United States would have to take steps to stop it.

It's an interesting hypothetical question, but it's a bit out there and my answer fits it fine.


JD

[George90]

Castro Nieves is out on 1.5 Million dollar bail for the IRS discovering his tax shelter and there rumors that many IRL Indy Car stars are scared they might get found if Helio turns State's "Stool Pigeon". Rich people DON'T PAY taxes and just WHO is Castro Nieves creating JOBS for????

Point of Information: It's 'Castronieves' as one word.




Businesses might complain but then how come its only AARP, Medical Doctors and 70% of Americans want Single Payer Health Care which would get companies off the HOOK and they aren't jumping up and down supporting it???

I don't know. It doesn't makes sense to me that the average American is not SCREAMING for single payer health care / universal insurance. The most obvious benefit is that if you lose your job, as many are now doing, you keep your health insurance. That is because it is provided by the government and paid through taxes (borne mostly by the high income), rather through an employer and paid through large deductions to our paychecks.

Some American voters just don't understand their economic interests.

[CBGBConnisur]

A Carlos Torano "Noventa". It was a bit hard to light the thing up, but I'm enjoying the overall experience.

As I understand it, the question was what happens if Isreali overflies Iraq in order to attack Iran. I don't see how that helps American foriegn policy overall (or even at all). If you use some imagination, you understand that such an attack would be considered an attack by the United States on Iran. It's not like the United States could simply say "Oh yeah, we just let those guys fly over Iraq. Didn't think much of it at the time. Sorry." The assumption everyone would make would be that the United States has authorized it.

It would complicate the US position with Arab states, probably reverse what gains we see in Iraq, perhaps ingite a complete war with Iran. I don't think that's a direction the USA (or Isreal or Iran) wants to go in. But that was the question.

Back in the Second World War, the British ended up sinking the French fleet. That was something unlikely, but that's how the politics spun out. This is similiar territory. Based on your posts, I'm convinced you've got the imagination to see - an Isreali overflight of Iraq would not be in American interests, the United States would have to take steps to stop it.

It's an interesting hypothetical question, but it's a bit out there and my answer fits it fine.


JD

William Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle, these were men who pretty much were the architects of Bush's Middle East policy, they all happen to be Jews and ardent Zionists commited to Israel, CruiserD is so off on saying that this administration turned its back on Israel, in fact its policies were in line with the most right wing aspects of the Israeli leadership.

The world is becoming more multipolar, and its obvious the US era of total domination is over. I expect big changes around the world. The most striking will be a more right wing Europe which is at the doorstep of radical Islam as well as the Russian bear.

[Jelly Donut]

William Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle, these were men who pretty much were the architects of Bush's Middle East policy, they all happen to be Jews and ardent Zionists commited to Israel...

The President and Vice President of the United States are, as far as I know, both Methodists. Of the Secretaries of State, Defense and Treasury through the Bush administration the only one I'm aware of that spoke any Yiddish was Colin Powell, who picked it up as a kid in Harlem. In the United States, these are the principle officers of the Executive Branch and the people who ultimately direct major policies.

Of the people you mentioned, Wolfowitz was U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense and Feith was Under Secretary of Defense for Policy. I think Perle had some kind of advisory role to the Secretary of Defense as well. Obviously, not unimportant positions, but tertiary to the administration. Not Cabinet level.

If you're going to have a go at a religious group, why not take on the Methodists? It would be so much more fresh than the same old boring Zionist conspiracy song-and-dance. Anyway, it seems like you are heading in a better direction with this whole Europe swinging right thing - love the idea of Carla Sarkozy in jack boots - I'd liked to see you flesh that idea out further.

[Cruiser D]

leeuwen, and your car stats mean what? audi sells more cars in europe then the us, and that is a big surprise because?

have you ever lived or worked in germany. the germans are just as protectionism as they french, they just don't take to the streets in protest. that simply isn't the german way.

as far as the china trade thing goes you keep making it into a us/china thing. the chinese economy will implode if they can't export to anyone.

sarkozy is the president of france, he isn't president of the european union, however he is president of the european council, a figurehead position which rotates with the leader nation. however this will come to an end soon with a eu elected president. here is what the eu is doing officially in georgia, http://www.delgeo.ec.europa.eu/en/press2008/17sept2008.html, business as usual for europe.

umm yeah, the us had 'hundreds' of military advisors in georgia (read - hundreds of special ops agents). where did you get that one, the weekly world news of moscow?

i've notice you tend to ramble off on tangents and argue points that are not being discussed. you also tend to distort and or ignore what i have written and then go off on another tangent to reply to my 'remarks'. could you just stick to the subject at hand, fully read and comprehend my remarks and then reply to them? hmmm?

dj, actually my mobile explanation is the correct [CodeWord116] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord116). but i never did take into account that your dad can’t use a mobile except to make a call with. neither can my dad or just about any other ‘dad’ in the world, it’s kinda universal.

m5, are you nuts? the druge report isn't a good place to follow anything. you want unbiased reporting that isn't an op-ed piece in disguse read the ap newsline.

[CBGBConnisur]

Thanks to Obama!

George Bush was on the front page of the Chicago tribune 2 weeks ago desperate with Obama and Nancy Pelosi coddling him.

Obama is 1 Senator out of 100 and might as well be dictator right now.

Congress is predicting a 'liberal supermajority' in the November, I'd say it's realistic.

Legalization of prostitution in the USA under Obama? Likely. Obama's platfor includes an infrastructure rehaul.

Rumors that George Bush will resign after using the patriot act to spy on Obama's campaign and supporters.

I'd say the stock market might as well be on it's way out. Anyone watching the american media? Fairly eerie situation going on. McCain is guaranteeing 100% of savings for only 6 months if he wins. Put cash into a safe if a storage bin or government bonds.

Obama opposed the Iraq war and wants troops home in 12-18 months.

I doubt that Europe would be overtaking land or materials.

www.drudgereport.com is the best place to follow the election.

Obama is the international guy for 2008.

What makes you think Obama will win, already the polls are narrowing yet again to nearly 5 percent. You have to account for the Bradley effect, which often says minorities do worse in real elections than in polls. Regardless of whether Obama or McCain wins, its going to be a stormy next few years for the world. I just don't see a swift US economic recovery happening if Obama wins, it will take years for a recovery to happen, and it won't happen while Obama is President. His policies are ambitious and it will take years before it can reap any fruit.

Comparing the current economic crisis to the 1930s is a bit of a stretch, with government intervention we will get the 1970s, not good but still not as bad as the Great Depression.

Either way you are seeing the development of a more multipolar world. The US is not going to fall to pieces but its not going to be an unchallenged power either that will be able to throw its weight around without consequences.

Race matters in Florida and Ohio, two states Obama needs to win the White House, and those are states with racial issues. He has a narrow lead in both. I think he can still win if he takes Virginia where is he is leading by 8 points in the polls and after the Bradley Effect, he will win by 3 points or so, assuming he keeps this lead in Virginia.

Already just looking at the election map, its very certain how politically polarized the US has become. Palin's comment about pro America states does not help, it remains to be seen if Obama will be a unifying figure in America. Somehow I don't think the people in the Red States are particularly fond of America.

As far as Zionist conspiracies are concerned, ever heard of Evangelicals like John Hagee?? Just about every Born Again pastor in America makes a point that its a good Christian's duty to support Israel. My family are Evangelicals, although I am not, they all are pro Israel Zionists. That is why Bush and Cheney are Zionists yet not Jewish.

The Dollar is moving because other economies are suffering due to the subprime fallout hitting other countries, also the fact that other central banks are slashing interest rates. The Dollar will go up and down for a while, but wait til the Chinese float the RMB.

Europe has gone facist in the last century, why would it not happen again? History has shown us time after time that political extremists gain power during times of great economic uncertainty. Look what the Austrian mainstream said about the death of Joerg Haider, a man who once called SS Wafen heroes and own parents were supporters of the third Reich, it shows how ingrained these attitudes are on the Continent.

The French?? The French are good for food, but European history circles around Britain, Germany, and Russia.

[Bango Cheito]

China will stand on its own without blinking in 3-5 years. They've been shooting for JUST THAT for the past 15-20 years, remember that.

All the ethnocentric ranting in the universe won't change that. Yeah, conditions in America are better for the average person, MUCH better, RIGHT NOW, that ain't gonna last very fucking long. And unfortunatley the USA has all its eggs in one basket (the economy) and the basket just got dropped!

[Leeuwen]

You also tend to distort and or ignore what I have written and then go off on another tangent to reply to my 'remarks'. Could you just stick to the subject at hand, fully read and comprehend my remarks and then reply to them? Hmmm?We were on China and I brought up Russian market as an parallel example of an emerging economy. Why sales of Audi cars? I explicitly anwered this already, and "big surprise" was the extraordinary growth of car sales in Russia (all brands), and Russia surpassing Germany as Europe's most important market for automobiles. Do yourself a favour and read once again.

Since global economy is such a wide topic, it may seem to you I don't stick to the subject, but if Ford, Nissan, Renault, Chrysler, VW, Toyota already opened factories in Russia (again!) and BMW and Daimler are talking about doing the same, it must be an unambiguous indicator that established markets are losing importance, relatively. Hence, your bold statement, almost oxymoron, "The Chinese economy will implode if they can't export TO ANYONE.", gets an imediate reply. There will always be someone buying. Nobody is irreplaceable.


Sarkozy is the president of France, he isn't president of the European Union, however he is president of the European Council, a figurehead position which rotates with the leader nation.
Sarkozy acts in the name of EU, as current holder of (rotaing) presidency, even though not in the name of average European.Further comments are superfluous.


Umm yeah, the US had 'hundreds' of military advisors in Georgia (read - hundreds of special ops agents). Where did you get that one, the Weekly World News of Moscow?Look, it's no secret the US armed Georgia since at least 2002 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1844653.stm) and been it's principal supporter. If you ever heard of Nabucco vs. South Stream, chances are you may come to wise conclusions. I sugest you look here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Baku_pipelines.svg) and here (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/01/18/europe/EU-GEN-Bulgaria-Putin.php).

Published: July 15, 2008 (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/15/europe/EU-GEN-Georgia-US-Military.php)
"TBILISI, Georgia: Georgian and U.S. troops started a joint military exercise Tuesday amid growing tensions between the ex-Soviet republic and Russia, a Georgian defense ministry official said.

About 1,200 U.S. servicemen and 800 Georgians will train for three weeks at the Vaziani military base near the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, ministry spokesman Mindiya Arabuli said. The drills were planned months ago and are not related to recent tensions over two separatist Georgian regions that are backed by Moscow, he said."

Yes, Russian media claimed one-hundred-military-advisors. Should we ignore it because Russian media claims it, and not our truth-and-whole-truth-only Western media? Mind you, I listen to everyone's story. Besides, what do you think American military advisors are hired for, if not training military personel, often in US-backed countries. How many are they in Central Asia, in Middle East? They certainly aren't sitting in Kansas watching cornfields.

Finally, an excellent article from our Hebrew friends (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358), shedding light on events that conveniently haven't been quite in focus of neither BBC, ABC, NBC or other friendly networks. Enjoy.

"Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday."


Have you ever lived or worked in Germany. The Germans are just as protectionism as they French, they just don't take to the streets in protest. That simply isn't the German way.I feel obliged to return the favour - Where did you get that one, FoxNews? Do you have any examples or facts backing your empty statement? If so, then maybe we can discuss the matter in German.

[Cruiser D]

Bango, China has always stood on it's own except during the imperialism era, even then it was one cagey tiger.

[CBGBConnisur]

Bango was meaning that the Chinese do not necessarily depend upon American consumers as what is generally accepted. Consumers are every on the planet. Asia will have a bigger consumer base than the West in a couple of decades. The EU is another alternative market for the Chinese, although a more hostile one than the US. BRICs have the best growth prospects for the at least the first half of this century.

90 percent of China a dump LOL, realistically its 80 percent but will drop to 50 percent in 10 years, 90 percent dump might describe India with its woefully horrific infrastructure but the Chinese are building a city the size of San Francisco every two weeks. The infrastructure in some of their big coastal cities like Shenzhen are unbelievable. You would honestly not think they would have such modern structures in a developing country. Shenzhen was largely a little town 20 years ago and is now larger than Los Angeles. Macau is another fine place, its an XXX rated version of Vegas.

[Cruiser D]

Lee,

The world is in a global economic slump teetering on a global depression. Who is buying/going to buy Chinese products? Commodity traders from Neptune?

The emerging foreign auto industry in Russia might be a big surprise to you but it makes sense that the Euro's would start manufacturing autos in a county will a large and mostly dormant auto industry. Labor is cheap and regulations only exist for those without money or political connections. The ability for the middle class to get credit to buy cars appeared almost overnight, so it would stand to reason that short term demand would be off the charts. To say this is an indicator that the established markets are losing importance is quite wrong to say the least.

The US has armed Georgia since 2002? You call giving Georgia 6-8 mothballed hand me down National Guard Huey’s from Vietnam arming Georgia? It was a bribe to get Georgia to join the Coalition of the Willing. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jjCNfv_hN7dzfcaXwielvnLpfRrA .Your conspiracy theories about what is/has happened in Georgia just doesn’t line up with the actual facts. Russia b1tch slapped Georgia while the world watch – not that I am advocating anything different and then after the fact said ‘Hey!’. W sitting next to Putin during the Olympics just goes to show what a mindless puppet he is. Even Carter showed he was a bigger man then W standing up to the Soviets vis a via the Olympics.

When I lived in Germany it was a cradle to grave socialist state. But since Bonn was still the capital then it’s been a while. Does ISG’s own German based Dr S have any insight on the current state of affairs in the Fatherland?

CB, I’m sure you are heart broken but I doubt you’ll be receiving a direct reply from me – well except for this one. Your views are too far on the fringe to warrant.

[CBGBConnisur]

Jewish support for Obama is weak compared to other Democratic candidates. Most Israelis do not like him, not a good sign for Obama. In fact some right wing Jews compare Obama to Hitler. Israelis prefer McCain.
I guarantee an Israel-Iran war will happen within the next 12 months following the election if Obama wins.

Germany is a cradle to grave welfare state but that will change, like you said a global slowdown is starting, so where are they going to get the money to pay for it, when wealthy foreigners can no longer afford Audis and BMWs?

The whole world is hurting but American leadership is hardly present. With the financial system of the US in disarray, a major reordering of the global economic order is occurring and the United States will be at the short end of the stick. This is not a repeat of 1929, more like a repeat of the 1970s, not great but not as severe as the Depression. The central banks of the world will prevent a depression but at the cost of increased inflation around the world.

[Leeuwen]

Cruiser, sure established markets are getting relatively less important as new markets emerge. Pure logic. The cake expands, and if your share of it doesn't grow, it means it gets smaller. Relatively, was the word.
This week BBC reported slighy lower growth in China. Expected 9% for 2008. It was also mentioned, that Chinese consumer can afford 15 times less than his Western counterpart. BBC didn't tell if it was a figure for median Chinese consumer, whole China included, or just Chinese middle class in coastal cities. However, given sustained growth if Chinese economy, and shear number of consumers in Asia, it becomes evident that "commodity traders from Neptune" are out of luck.


The US has armed Georgia since 2002? You call giving Georgia 6-8 mothballed hand me down National Guard Huey’s from Vietnam arming Georgia? It was a bribe to get Georgia to join the Coalition of the Willing. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM...caXwielvnLpfRrA .Your conspiracy theories about what is/has happened in Georgia just doesn’t line up with the actual facts. Russia b1tch slapped Georgia while the world watch – not that I am advocating anything different and then after the fact said ‘Hey!’.
Giving (outdated) military hardware to someone, is by definition arming that person.
You don't believe Georgia deployed 2000 troops in Iraq for 6-8 Hueys, do you? Shakashvili did it for NATO membership, financial support and his long wish to escape Russian influence. He also counted on transit fees from Nabucco pipeline, because there is no Georgian economy to talk about. Moreover, you seem to agree what happened in Georgia but mark my comments "conspiracy theories". Sounds quite contradictory to me. From the article you refer to:

"The US military has had a longstanding program to train Georgian troops for deployments in Iraq..." and then "US military trainers not involved in Georgia conflict: military". Pentagon has spoken.

Like I pointed out, Israel was deeply involved in both arms deals and training, as others who support Nabucco pipeline. Let me quote the Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SimpleSite/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1218710400132):
"Georgia's Deputy Defense Minister Batu Kutelia said that Georgian corporals and sergeants train with German alpine units, the navy work with French instructors and special operations and urban warfare troops are taught by Israelis."

"Georgia's defense minister, Davit Kezerashvili, is a former Israeli who is fluent in Hebrew, and is said to have contributed to military cooperation."

Please, don't try to convince me that the US, main supporter of Georgia, were excluded from all this. Anyway, since Georgia is a closed chapter, next hotbed will be Israel/Iran, though a quick fix similar to Osirak 1981 or Syria 2007 seems unlikely, but desirable. Others (http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c39_a13193/News/International.html) present much more progressive approach:

"It seems to me if there is a deal with Russia on Iran, it will come in the next administration fairly early,” said Hough, the Brookings Institution’s former top Russian specialist. “It will involve the United States giving up on NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia.” In addition, he said, “The new administration has got to decide whether to go ahead with missiles defenses in Eastern Europe."

Well, majority of Ukrainians (58% vs. 24%) are opposing NATO membership, and president Yushchenko's popularity at 4-5% certainly doesn't help. Georgia's way to NATO is closed for foreseeable future, or at the very best, until it clears up its border issues. Practically, until Georgia officially gives up S.Ossetia and Abchazia. I wouldn't hold my breath.
So, if Russians can use their influence on Iran in exchange for some favours, why not. Sounds plausible to me.

[Leeuwen]

Jewish support for Obama is weak compared to other Democratic candidates. Most Israelis do not like him, not a good sign for Obama.
Why do you think Obama is less popular among American Jews than McCain? I would buy it if all Jews were conservative. All are not conservative.
I would buy it, if all Jews perceived Obama as less inclined to support Israel. Well, I simply don't know.
I would also buy it, if this attitude is based on 'traditions'. Same 'traditions' as in Dixie. Hopefully I'm wrong.



I guarantee an Israel-Iran war will happen within the next 12 months following the election if Obama wins.
Yes, I agree. The question is how Israel plans (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1355) to execute the strike/s and how credible rumors of Iran's pre-emptive strike on Israel are.
"Israeli intelligence estimates the summer months are critical for acting against Iran’s nuclear advances, especially uranium enrichment which Iran refuses to forego. If it is not stopped by September or October of 2008, it will be too late; Iran will have crossed the threshold to the last lap of its military program."



Germany is a cradle to grave welfare state but that will change, like you said a global slowdown is starting, so where are they going to get the money to pay for it, when wealthy foreigners can no longer afford Audis and BMWs?
We have heard it before, EU was doomed, Scandinavian social welfare was doomed, German economy was doomed. Give it up, it won't happend. Of course, welfare systems were far more generous in the 70/80's, and then reformed every decade. I'm not sure what you guys understand by the sole expression "welfare".
I would like to point out the fact that Germany alone has been world's largest (http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/conc5en/leadingtraders.html) exporter for x consecutive years. Quite an achievement by an 83mln-inhabitants country.
Besides German economy doesn't rely only on Audi and BMW, as many foreigners tend to think. Domestic and European automobile markets are most important, and I don't think there will ever be times "when wealthy foreigners can no longer afford Audis and BMWs". Wealthy foreigners simply start to pop up elsewhere. Hey, recessions are hitting markets on a regular basis. It's not like end of the world. However, if you seriously think about compeating with China, you either manufacture superiour quality products/services, or bring them to market at as low price as the Chinese do. Does either option seem viable?

[CBGBConnisur]

I did not say the EU was going to collapse but things are going to change in the weakening global economy. Europe as a socialist non militaristic entity will soon be replaced by a different order. Already there is talk of a Permanent EU President, I doubt it will be French, most likely German. Europe has had a very long history of militarism, it has the industrial, technological, and scientific resources to build a powerful military machine. I do see a future where the EU will become a major world power and will be counterbalanced by a rapidly expanding Asian power bloc led by Russia and China but will include other Asian nations including Japan and India.

Israel will attack Iran but fail in removing the Iranian nuclear threat, eventually a nuclear Iran will threaten Europe and Europe will fight back. The EU will also cheat the Israelis, possibly forcing Israel to give major concessions to the Palestinians. Its also quite well known that European Muslims have become increasingly radicalized and unpopular in many European countries. Germany for example has an anti-Muslim political party, its small but its existence confirms growing fear of Islam in Europe. At the same time Europeans are increasingly anti-semetic, especially in the wake of the current financial chaos anti-semetism in Europe is coming back.

As far as Obama is concerned many Jews have not been as enthusiastic about him as they have towards other Democrats, Hilary Clinton and Al Gore in particular, the reason is that he will not wage wars in the Middle East in Israel's interests, and anyway Israel and the USA's interests are beginning to diverge.

[Cruiser D]

Lee, your logic is that as emerging markets come to exist the established market means less? You toss that and the word logic in the same sentence?

You are all over the place on your Chinese economy comments. Now China has a self sustaining economy that could handle the absence of a booming world market and demand for their exports?

Who said the socialist economies of Europe is doomed, I'm actually saying the opposite, it seems to work. Germany is a large export nation because of 1) their high quality products 2) a very large an extremely efficient industrial base 3) A high protectionism market - products go out, but they don't come in. American used to be the same way during the 1940’, 50’ and 60’s. But along the way the masses bought into the myth that capitalism and a free market is good for all. It isn’t, it’s a minority win, majority loss system. The politicians who bought/were bought sold us out to big business. The masses fell for the lies and drank the cool aid.

Georgia is a 3rd string country at most. What we want from them is to be a name and number on the Coalition of the Willing. Keeping them from the Russian sphere of influence is a distant and obviously second at best. The dysfunctional Russian army rolled over them like a NFL team playing a junior high school team. If that’s the best so called American and Israel training can bring it’s time to take it up a notch. Or to put it more bluntly the US could care less about Georgia, however they are willing to pander to us in hopes it will bring them closer to the West and the EU.

Are the majority of people in the Ukraine opposed to NATO membership? Yes. Is the majority opposed to EU membership? Hell no. Ukraine doesn’t see the need for NATO to protect them against the Russian Bear, they actually have a military and the means to defend themselves if they the country would stay united under a Russian attack. Also an attack against Ukraine would bring a much stronger response then ‘Hey!’ from the US. Who knows, W might not even sit next to Putin while they were attacking. The European response would be even stronger. Georgia is however an easily expendable pawn on the world chess game. Besides, you want to destroy Russian without even firing a shot or saying ‘boo’, drop oil to under $50/barrel. OPEC’s currently making empty promises of dropping production. Russia has already given a flat out ‘nyet!’ to a production drop, the Russian economy can not survive without oil. In ten years time if the American government does right by it’s people, oil and the Middle East will be non factors. Russian will be back to being the paper tiger (err, bear?) they were during the 90's.

The EU will not be a united political force for quite some time. It still takes them a few days to argue out who’s cheese and bottled water will be used during conferences. Someone mention the new position of EU president might be filled by Germany, then maybe France. I think the front runners currently are Blair and one of the ex PM’s of Ireland.

Israel will not be attacking Iran.

[CBGBConnisur]

Keep smoking the pot Cruiser D hippie boy, Israel is going to attack Iran, maybe they won't recent AP polls show a tie in the race for the White House, it contradicts every other poll showing Obama with a commanding lead.

Instead of some left wing news source or a wannabe right wing source like the trash is that is Fox News, try the American Conservative, a great publication.
Europe's socialist economy will collapse and it will be back to the "Sieg Heil" days again.

[DJ FourMoney]

Keep smoking the pot Cruiser D hippie boy, Israel is going to attack Iran, maybe they won't recent AP polls show a tie in the race for the White House, it contradicts every other poll showing Obama with a commanding lead.

Instead of some left wing news source or a wannabe right wing source like the trash is that is Fox News, try the American Conservative, a great publication.
Europe's socialist economy will collapse and it will be back to the "Sieg Heil" days again.

The only pole I trust is the Zogby poll -

Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll: Obama 52.2%, McCain 40.3%

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

Polls having Obama up in the 60% range is nonsense. McCain hasn't broken 40% high enough to beat the margin of error for one thing. The truth is Dems out number Republicans 4:1 in most cases. So you'll have high initial turnout among early and absent voters, mostly white. In FLA for example, some stats have just been released.

Of the early voters which started yesterday (10/22) -

39% Dem/46% Repub

Expect that gap to close as many of educated white folk will not be voting on Nov 4th, they already have. Since the poor population/working class don't usually know about absent bailouts or aren't paying attention, will vote on Nov 4th and turnout will be extremely (for the US) high.

I predict 65%-70% turnout and that's HIGH

[Cruiser D]

I don't know about other parts of the country but people in the Northeast generally vote on the 4th, from MIT professors to per diem laborers. Absentee ballots and/or early ballots aren't tallied until election day.

The College (Uni for you Euro's) educated tend to vote progressive - which isn't Republican.

[CBGBConnisur]

University professors and academics almost always vote left of center, that does not mean all educated people are liberals. I know plenty of people with advanced degrees, most of who are professionals who are politically conservative. I had a professor who is teaches at a prestigious Ivy League university who thinks Ronald Reagan was the greatest person after Jesus, still he is in a minority.

Anyway a lot can happen in these days, Joe Biden was just recently opening his big mouth that Obama is going to be "tested" by a major international incident. My best hunch is that it will involve a confrontation between Israel and Iran.

Anyway I wish Obama good luck, he is going to get my overseas vote. My own belief is that he will be tested like no other leader in American history, he is going to be in over his head in January with major problems compared to Bush whose first six months were quiet but who was given the task of taking on the biggest crisis in American history up until that point, September 11th.

The Zogby poll has went up and down, I think Real Clear Politics and Pollster offer the most accurate estimates because they take an average of all major polls. The Fox News poll that came out recently makes me hold out some hope that Obama will win, because he was leading by 9 points over McCain on that one, big surprise, considering Fox News' obvious right wing bias, still Rupert Murdoch was predicting an Obama landslide in 2008, I think it will be a victory but not a landslide.

[DJ FourMoney]

University professors and academics almost always vote left of center, that does not mean all educated people are liberals. I know plenty of people with advanced degrees, most of who are professionals who are politically conservative. I had a professor who is teaches at a prestigious Ivy League university who thinks Ronald Reagan was the greatest person after Jesus, still he is in a minority.

Anyway a lot can happen in these days, Joe Biden was just recently opening his big mouth that Obama is going to be "tested" by a major international incident. My best hunch is that it will involve a confrontation between Israel and Iran.

Anyway I wish Obama good luck, he is going to get my overseas vote. My own belief is that he will be tested like no other leader in American history, he is going to be in over his head in January with major problems compared to Bush whose first six months were quiet but who was given the task of taking on the biggest crisis in American history up until that point, September 11th.

The Zogby poll has went up and down, I think Real Clear Politics and Pollster offer the most accurate estimates because they take an average of all major polls. The Fox News poll that came out recently makes me hold out some hope that Obama will win, because he was leading by 9 points over McCain on that one, big surprise, considering Fox News' obvious right wing bias, still Rupert Murdoch was predicting an Obama landslide in 2008, I think it will be a victory but not a landslide.

Actually according to news reports we bombed Syria, Oct Surprise anybody???



In any event, I think this country is war weary and this was foolish if somebody high up ordered this attack.

Of course this is Football Sunday not much is going to get through until Monday...

I just wish it was over and we can focus on Nov 5th...

I was on the USGS web site and found that there are currently 130 Geothermal projects going on with FULL FUNDING from Congress in '05. Oh yeah our Congress isn't doing anything. That's because people don't pay attention and much more worried about if somebody is Gay, if their daughter is dating a Black Man and if Lindsay Lohan shaves her pussy...

In any event, that's compared to I think 30 nuclear projects and umm we still don't know where to store the waste....

So basically I guess what I am saying is electing anybody isn't say much but undoing deadlocks in Congress and MAYBE setting policy but Congress passes policy if we paid attention more we would have HR 676 passed already and not about how we can "push" Obama into supporting that, when he's gotten $6+ Million for his campaign from the Health Care Industry.

Ranked 7th, guess who's #1....

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/indus.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

[DJ FourMoney]

I don't know about other parts of the country but people in the Northeast generally vote on the 4th, from MIT professors to per diem laborers. Absentee ballots and/or early ballots aren't tallied until election day.

The College (Uni for you Euro's) educated tend to vote progressive - which isn't Republican.

Anytime there's an election the electoral map looks the same...

Northeast - BLUE

West Coast - BLUE

Its the MIDDLE of the country that always HOLDS things up!

[Balluba]

Actually according to news reports we bombed Syria, Oct Surprise anybody???



In any event, I think this country is war weary and this was foolish if somebody high up ordered this attack.

Of course this is Football Sunday not much is going to get through until Monday...

I just wish it was over and we can focus on Nov 5th...



Nine civilians killed in a small village, among them; a father and his four sons....

[DJ FourMoney]

Nine civilians killed in a small village, among them; a father and his four sons....

Yep dayum shame.

[Cruiser D]

Yucca Mountain has been ready to receive nuclear waste since 2001. The DOE has been paying nuclear utilities 'penalty' money since 1999 because Yucca Mountain hasn't opened for business.

It will be interesting to see how Obama will be a man of change when he has already been bought. He's still a better choice then McCain.



In any event, that's compared to I think 30 nuclear projects and umm we still don't know where to store the waste....

So basically I guess what I am saying is electing anybody isn't say much but undoing deadlocks in Congress and MAYBE setting policy but Congress passes policy if we paid attention more we would have HR 676 passed already and not about how we can "push" Obama into supporting that, when he's gotten $6+ Million for his campaign from the Health Care Industry.

Ranked 7th, guess who's #1....

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/indus.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

Actually DJ I think people in the Northeast and West Coast should get a full vote. The rest of the country half and DC none. :)

[CBGBConnisur]

The border of Syria where insurgents enter Iraq from was bombed, the US military was bombing with the intention of getting the insurgents, not to outright attack the Syrian people. The US military has also chased Taliban into Pakistan too. The big conflict will be between Israel and Iran, and with the current economic meltdown in the US, the economic pressures will push Obama to withdraw troops from Iraq, and unlike what Palin has said those troops will never return to the region.

The Presidential contest is over. New York Magazine published a cover page with Obama's picture and the caption "January 20, 2009". SNL also just hinted at the outcome.

One of the Bush daughters has had a black boyfriend, the daughter that went to Yale not Jenna Bush.

[DirkDingy]

One of the Bush daughters has had a black boyfriend, the daughter that went to Yale not Jenna Bush.


So what? You have a really outmoded-- or at least myopic view--of some aspects of race in America. I went to an Ivy League school graduating within a few years of BPP and dated two uber rich white chicks with recognizable last names and some other really really rich American chicks and never had a problem. I accompanied my girlfriends to various social functions, often with other family members present, and was always welcomed. Sometimes I was the only black guy in the room, but I never sensed any racial hostility.

I’m still cool with two of their dads to this day and have been asked to work for both of them on multiple occasions.

Only one girl's step-mom, a second trophy wife from Paraguay, said something to me which may have had a racial tint but she wasn't PC and was outlandishly ditzy anyway.

The only time I have ever experienced racism was when I was working in EE, and it was partially my fault as I conducted myself too informally at times...even then I think my youth, scope of work, and facile amicability that just barely masks an arrogance and an "I know that I am smarter than you and you know this too" demeanor all contributed to my work site difficulties in some EE countries.

Now I wear a suit, don't walk around with a permanent smile etched on my face, and am more formal and I see a marked difference in the way I am treated.

The only racial issues that I infrequently have today is with underclass ghetto blacks who are ignorant of the concept of the talented tenth and blame racism for their own pathological behavior. Many of my friends are black, attended Ivy League or comparable schools and work in law, banking, consulting, and are climbing the corporate ladder with all the associated trappings.

Come to think of it, of all of my close black friends I am the sorriest one of the bunch. And I can hardly be called a fuck up by anyone’s definition…just a bit of an adventurous soul and wanderlust at heart chasing pussy.

[Cruiser D]

Dirk I think if you read some of CB's recent comments he has all the touch button's checked off. Why are you bothering? ;)

If you dress like a professional and act that way people generally treat you that way. If you act and dress like a thug people tend to treat you that way too. White, black, brown, whatever...

[CBGBConnisur]

http://www.ianjohnsononline.com/ian-johnson-news20070730.php

Racial prejudice does not exist in America?? Give me a break. Its very much alive in America, and since Obama has been running for President its been exposing a lot of racial issues. Even Hilary used racism to try to hurt her opponent. The case above is about football star Ian Johnson, who was once one of the top prospects for the NFL. Honestly compared to interracial dating in Australia and the UK, I think America still has a lot of issues. E-harmony never advertises interracial couples on TV, an Australian dating site does. Not that racism is exclusive to the US, its unfortunately a worldwide problem, but people see the USA is as some kind of egalitarian model so hence a higher bar set for America.
Maybe African Americans do not have as much of a stigma today but there are other groups having a hard time, Hispanics and Arab Americans are not exactly feeling welcome these days in the States.

[DJ FourMoney]

http://www.ianjohnsononline.com/ian-johnson-news20070730.php

Racial prejudice does not exist in America?? Give me a break. Its very much alive in America, and since Obama has been running for President its been exposing a lot of racial issues. Even Hilary used racism to try to hurt her opponent. The case above is about football star Ian Johnson, who was once one of the top prospects for the NFL. Honestly compared to interracial dating in Australia and the UK, I think America still has a lot of issues. E-harmony never advertises interracial couples on TV, an Australian dating site does. Not that racism is exclusive to the US, its unfortunately a worldwide problem, but people see the USA is as some kind of egalitarian model so hence a higher bar set for America.
Maybe African Americans do not have as much of a stigma today but there are other groups having a hard time, Hispanics and Arab Americans are not exactly feeling welcome these days in the States.

Maybe DD is the in the Kenneth Blackwell mold....

I found on another forum that while at a soccer game at the Carson field here in LA that a Arab-American was sitting next to another Black American and said "Hey we're like brothers now, we get treated the same way by White folk..."

Palin in the same stadium was trying to say the real parts of America are Racist because those where the only crowds they pull these days in people saying "Kill Him" "Terrorist" "Nigger" and then the Ashley Todd incident that isn't even worth commenting on actually, yes Racism does exist in America and its ALIVE and well. Like flashing a light on bugs scurring around on your floor, this exposes race and just how ugly about 30-35% of White America is, let's hope this opens the door for a national dialog.

Nobody said that problems in the Black Community are not self inflicted at times. But everything Tim Wise says is true and until the day that "Working Class" used by the Clinton campaign isn't code for "White Middle Class Families" like some-how Black Americans are apart of that same "Middle Class" then we won't get anywhere in this country....

What is going to put Obama over the top is the 90+% Black and Latino vote actually.

They won't vote until Nov 4th, they are on "Colored People's Time"....

[Cruiser D]

Sad to say most of the anti Obama's I encounter are racists (not to imply if you are Anti Obama you are a racist). Either in the closet or openly embracing their racism, personally I prefer the ones who are out in the open about it. The W administration has fucked this economy up so bad that a black man named Barack Obama is going to win the election. If today's Obama had run in 2000 he wouldn't have made it to the first primary. Then again if McCain had sold out in 2000 instead of 2004ish he probably would have got the nod in 2000.

My major problems with Obama is the massive amount of SIG and PAC money he's taken and like most liberals he's conditioned to afraid of the specter of nuclear power.

I don't think most people have a problem with Hispanics or Arabs (Muslims). I think most are offended by what is perceived as a forcing of their culture on us. Whether for business – press 1 for english or 2 for spanish or the government being too PC – it’s okay for Muslim females to have government ID’s taken with only their eyes showing. Then of course there’s the whole illegal immigration thing.

[CBGBConnisur]

Arabs are not forcing their culture on anyone, even in Europe, most of them live in isolated ghettos. You don't see Muslims living near the Champs Ellysees with the elite French. Most of them do jobs that most locals will not. Your typical drunk European would not have a place to eat if it were not for a Turkish or Arab kebab shop. That's a great way to expose a racist. There are a lot of whites I know who are generally nice to Blacks and East Asians but when there is an Arab they behave totally different, its good old fashioned racism. These same people probably have hidden racism issues with the same people that they are nice to in public. Arabs have ethnic names and customs that are different and its just a fact that whites have a problem with this. Even many black people with African names have difficulties.
Europeans and white Americans are equally prejudiced. Some Australians to a degree, although most Australians are publicly nice to Asians, probably out of a fear that China or Indonesia might invade Australia in the future.
W's screwing up the of the US economy surely changed things, and US economic leadership and domination of Earth is soon to be history. Its obvious that the disaster W created allowed Obama a chance to get to the Presidency.
DD, Ivy League universities tend to be liberal bastions, if you go to more conservative areas of the country, there is a different mentality. The football player I mentioned went to Boise State, and he was receiving threats for proposing in public to a white cheerleader.

[Doctor_Skank]

Arabs are not forcing their culture on anyone, even in Europe, most of them live in isolated ghettos. You don't see Muslims living near the Champs Ellysees with the elite French. Most of them do jobs that most locals will not. Your typical drunk European would not have a place to eat if it were not for a Turkish or Arab kebab shop. That's a great way to expose a racist. There are a lot of whites I know who are generally nice to Blacks and East Asians but when there is an Arab they behave totally different, its good old fashioned racism. Live in Europe a while then rewrite your post.

[CBGBConnisur]

I did, most of the Muslims don't play much of a role in European society anyway, hardly anyone I saw there did no more than drive a taxi or run a kebab shop. There is a small Muslim population in Australia where I reside but there is a mix, since many come from Malaysia and Singapore and are different from the Middle Eastern ones, they are definitely a secular bunch compared to the ones in Europe and at many times you cannot tell a lot of them apart from other ethnic groups. European Muslims are not well integrated, but that is not the point, they are only there to do menial jobs that locals will not perform, I recall at my hotel in Frankfurt a few years ago, all the maids were Turkish.

With the exception of France, the countries most populated with Muslims don't have more than 2 percent of the their population being Muslim. Maybe you might have a point with British and French Muslims being aggressive but the ones I saw in Germany, who are predominantly Turks are generally a quiet bunch. Still even the ones in Britain and France are mostly in the ghettos. If you compare Jews to Muslims, Jews have way more power in Western countries than Muslims, especially in Germany, the UK, and of course the USA. If I am not mistaken Germany and Austria gives Jews automatic citizenship in their countries, hence a fair number of Jews have immigrated to these countries from the former Soviet States and Israel. There was even a case of a German guy who migrated to Australia who the German government wanted to extradite because he said some rather improper things about the holocaust. At the same time there are Turks and others who have lived in Germany for decades and could not get citizenship until recently and even now I believe a person has to live in Germany at least 8 years to get it. There was a story of a Turk who lost his job and applied to welfare benefits and then got kicked out after living in the country for over 30 years. I see a similar pattern in Australia, Eastern Sydney which is considered to be very well off and has some the country's most prized real estate has a large Jewish population, Western Sydney which is considered a poor working class area has a lot of Muslims. I just don't see Muslims except for a token oil sheikh moving to Belgravia or Mayfair in London any time soon.

With the current world economic downturn getting increasingly bad, I expect Europeans to use Muslims as a scapegoat and they will also become increasingly anti-Jewish, although the Russians are most famous for this in the current time.

If so many Western countries are so annoyed with immigrants, I got a suggestion, ban feminism and go back to a Father knows best society, that would increase the local birth rate substantially. Right now in most Western nations marriage is a joke. The main argument for immigration is falling birth rates in Western nations.

Its true that there are people who are racist to one group of people and not to others. I have noticed it so many times.

[DirkDingy]

Yo DJ: Most people at Ivy League schools are very liberal including the blacks there...thus the Ken Blackwell comment is not really applicable. But guess what, most of them are smart, get good jobs after graduation, and make lots of money...just like our white classmates do....and trust me, Ivy League elitist blacks would clown you DJ far worse than any white person could ever dream of...you'd have an easier time dating Jenna Bush then you would one of their daughters...yet they are "liberal" according to your definition.


Here's the way America works: study, go to uni, get a job, make money and then you won't have to whine about racism. If you are too poor and too dumb to get a scholarship to college, then join the Army, serve your country, use the GI bill and then go to school.

Before you accuse Hillary of being a racist...look at a picture of her sr. campiagn staff...there are more black women in that picture than Obama has blacks on his entire sr campiagn staff.

and from someone who has worked on a national campaign before, I can assure you that her comments were vetted through her sr. campiagn staff...anyway, it's not racist to make the argument that a particular political coalition (reminscent of McGovern's) can't win the whitehouse..

RE Barrack Hussein Obama. I don't like Al Gore, Ralph Nader, Bob Bar, or Dick Cheney? Does that make me anti-white? Obama is smart but has the thinnest resume of any major prsidential candidate that my cum laude ivy league poli sci ass can remember.

BO is the most liberal member of the US Senate....the US is a center right nation...somethings gotta give...the reality is that BO's rhetoric masks a far-left political philospohy...i only hope that his phillosphy quickly falls way to pragmatism.

Besides, since the guy has been planning his political career before he matriculated at Columbia, why didn't he shore his resume up...he's gotta know that American's dig apple pie, god, and guns. he should have changed barrack to barry, dropped his scary ass middle name, and joined the fuckin Navy reserve--you can get commiioned in three weeks...jag, intel, doesn't really matter as long as he could wear a Desert Storm participation ribbon on his dress whites.

If he would have done stuff like this he would have nipped much--but not all--of this shit in the bud. Who's gonna call a war vet a terrorist? Karl Rove ain't in the game anymore.

If Sec Powell ran instead of Obama do you think he would have encountered the same level of hostility? Of course not. Trailer Tash and WV Hillbillies are not that big a part of the American population.

I don't like Presidents with no millitary experience or contact sport particpation...going through bootcamp/ocs/football camp really builds character and fortitude. I know people like BO, much better than any of you do, both black and white, and I question their ability to lead when the shit hits the fans...being smart and rich in america really islolates you from comming into contact with adversity.

[CBGBConnisur]

Things always change, for the most part the US is a center right nation but the current climate is changing. The big boogie man is not a Turbaned Taliban so much these days but a Banker in a Brooks Brothers suit and has an MBA on the wall of his corner office. Many people in America now want the government to keep an eye on corporate malfeasance as there is very little trust among the folks on Main St. to Wall Street.

DD, your argument against Obama is BS. Do you think Bush or Cheney lived in adversity?? Cheney and Bush both dodged the draft. McCain did not, but lets face it at 72, he is too old, and there is a good chance he will relinquish the White House to Sarah Palin whose experience has been running a small town and then a state whose economy is largely based on oil exports. Obama did not exactly live a life of privilege, although he went to an elite prep school and then to Columbia and Harvard. People call Obama fashionable but his wife admitted that he wears 10 year old clothes and the family shops at fairly modest budget stores. Meanwhile Sarah Palin drops 150k for Japanese glasses and a new makeover.

Hilary is not a racist but she used racism as a tool to try to hurt Obama, if she was not so aggressive in her tactics, Obama's lead over McCain would be over the double digits for months, its only widened since the September economic debacle.

Why the heck should Obama use a slave name like Barry???

[DirkDingy]

[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur] Do you think Bush or Cheney lived in adversity?? QUOTE]

that's exactly my point!!! anyway, bush was a fighter pilot. even if he dodged the draft i assume he went through ocs and fighter pilot school...which is more than obama or cheney ever did. cheney was a lineman at yale. I'm not syaing that playing football makes one a good leader, but it certainly makes one a better man.

anyway, gbgb, you seem kinda angry...why dont you post some pictures of some babes instrad of this dribble? you post a picture of an aussie *****...like robin nursery...and I will post a pic of this french chick that i shagged my 2nd night in kabul.

when was the last time you lived in the usa? you seem like you get all your info from the runner on the bottom of cnbc.

why barrack should have dumped his foreign sounding middle name? because to lead the majority you must project commonality with the majority's ethics and values...poles, jews, germans, italians, and a host of other ethnic groups have been doing this for years...making their name more american sounding.

i think that jackson should make a rule: no posting political banter unrelated to the concept of men finding women for sex unless you post a field report with a photo or two.

[DJ FourMoney]

Yo DJ: Most people at Ivy League schools are very liberal including the blacks there...thus the Ken Blackwell comment is not really applicable. But guess what, most of them are smart, get good jobs after graduation, and make lots of money...just like our white classmates do....and trust me, Ivy League elitist blacks would clown you DJ far worse than any white person could ever dream of...you'd have an easier time dating Jenna Bush then you would one of their daughters...yet they are "liberal" according to your definition.


Here's the way America works: study, go to uni, get a job, make money and then you won't have to whine about racism. If you are too poor and too dumb to get a scholarship to college, then join the Army, serve your country, use the GI bill and then go to school.

Before you accuse Hillary of being a racist...look at a picture of her sr. campiagn staff...there are more black women in that picture than Obama has blacks on his entire sr campiagn staff.

and from someone who has worked on a national campaign before, I can assure you that her comments were vetted through her sr. campiagn staff...anyway, it's not racist to make the argument that a particular political coalition (reminscent of McGovern's) can't win the whitehouse..

RE Barrack Hussein Obama. I don't like Al Gore, Ralph Nader, Bob Bar, or Dick Cheney? Does that make me anti-white? Obama is smart but has the thinnest resume of any major prsidential candidate that my cum laude ivy league poli sci ass can remember.

BO is the most liberal member of the US Senate....the US is a center right nation...somethings gotta give...the reality is that BO's rhetoric masks a far-left political philospohy...i only hope that his phillosphy quickly falls way to pragmatism.

Besides, since the guy has been planning his political career before he matriculated at Columbia, why didn't he shore his resume up...he's gotta know that American's dig apple pie, god, and guns. he should have changed barrack to barry, dropped his scary ass middle name, and joined the fuckin Navy reserve--you can get commiioned in three weeks...jag, intel, doesn't really matter as long as he could wear a Desert Storm participation ribbon on his dress whites.

If he would have done stuff like this he would have nipped much--but not all--of this shit in the bud. Who's gonna call a war vet a terrorist? Karl Rove ain't in the game anymore.

If Sec Powell ran instead of Obama do you think he would have encountered the same level of hostility? Of course not. Trailer Tash and WV Hillbillies are not that big a part of the American population.

I don't like Presidents with no millitary experience or contact sport particpation...going through bootcamp/ocs/football camp really builds character and fortitude. I know people like BO, much better than any of you do, both black and white, and I question their ability to lead when the shit hits the fans...being smart and rich in america really islolates you from comming into contact with adversity.

I don't think the Clintons are racist per-say they wanted to win and do it by "Any Means dot, dot, dot"

Going to school doesn't prevent racism, it then turns into a shadowy figure and never really says "Hey Nigga you done with that report yet" but getting passed up for promotion after promotion and you are more than qualified, what in the hell do you call that???

Nevermind the fact that being called "A Racist Company" is NOT in the best interest of most of the Fortune 500 media wise.

Why would I wanna bang Jenna Bush of all things???

I said Mr Blackwell because he like many educated Black folk want to say -

"Hey I made it, you can do it too, so what if the world isn't flat..."

Yours and his success doesn't change the simple facts researched by many colleges and your own Government that tell you otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that when the New Deal and Square Deals were passed, they basically had no effect on Blacks or Browns because they were not included, they were excluded until the Civil Rights mandates.

Ed Gordon and Tavis Smiley have made it but don't say stupid shiet like that, they know the World isn't flat, its ROUND and as long as the playing field is not level, people we'll continue to say - "Hey stupid the playing field isn't level"

My mother went to Georgetown, Step Father Cal State LA and my father (rip) master's from San Jose State. I'm the lazy SOB, sue me, whatever, I'm far from stupid and I don't need a sheepskin to validate my intelligence.

We didn't come from poverty or slavery, I have no connection with that part of our history, however I don't feel I'm above the struggle of the average Black person in America to say the world is flat like you seem to keep saying.

Gerald Ford played Football, who else has played a contact sport? Carter? Nope, Duyba? Nope, both Ford and Bush Sr. played on Ivy League teams hardly high caliber competition and they never challenge for the National Title on those teams, in otherwords - They SUCKED which is why Ford became a lawyer...

That's really flawed thinking homie...

[Cruiser D]

Who, where to start...

First off Barry O'Bomber - his high school basketball nickname is pretty white bread apple pie. Dropped his middle name? Change his first name? The Republicans are still misdirecting about his birth certificate, hoping right up until the last second the mindless will buy into it. Imagine how much hay they would have made if he change his name - and you say you know something about national politics? His mother just made some really odd marriage choices. I'm not just talking about skin color, she got hooked up with some pretty whacked nut jobs, Obama Sr included. She must have had some serious daddy issues.

Secondly, no racism in the Ivy League? Have you guys ever gone to an Ivy League school? Social class rules and then it's racism.

Dirk you only like Presidents with military experience? Like FDR? Abraham Lincoln? Bill Clinton (come on - who here didn't do a hell of a lot better in the 90's then they are now?). Football Hero's make great Presidents? Hmm, let's ask Ford about that one.

Why don't you call up John Kerry and ask him how the War Vet thing turned out for him? Considering how Kerry went down without a fight when all he had to do was hammer W about his odd absence from Vietnam, one has to wonder if the fix was in.


Obama is the most liberal Senator? You never followed Ted Kennedy's long and rancid career.

As far as experienced presidential candidates goes, I guess an Ivy League degree isn't worth what it used to be. Eisenhower had zero political experience when he won. Lincoln spent eight years in the Illinois Legislature but only one term in the House of Representatives and lost his U.S. Senate campaign in 1858. Wilson had served as New Jersey's governor for two years when he was elected president in 1912. W served as governor of Texas from 1995 to 2000 before being sworn in as president in January of 2001. TR was governor of New York from 1898 to 1900 and served six months as vice president before becoming president after William McKinley was shot. FDR’s political experience prior to the presidency included one term as a state senator and a stint as governor of New York from 1929 to 1932. And let's not forget the perennial boob of American politics, (soon to be replaced by W) Grant. Abe was probably the greatest president in American history and Obama’s career seems to mirror his. So, what exactly does this all mean?

Oh and to make this about hot Ho’s, does anyone know how Jeri Ryan, the busty blond American actress made Obama’s senatorial career possible? Extra credit for this one. ;)

[DirkDingy]

Secondly, no racism in the Ivy League? Have you guys ever gone to an Ivy League school? Social class rules and then it's racism.

;)

well, since you asked:yup yup, cum laude from the 2nd or 3rd most selective ivy college. did two years at an east coast boarding school too.

one of my homie's from prep school is skull and bones and he grew up in the projects with a single mother.

your comments about the ivy league are as removed from reality as gbgb's comments about politics are.

one's college is only important in entry-level type positions. once you are established it's all about performance. but I will say that the people at mckinsey, bain & co, de shaw, goldman, the whiteshoe law firms do come ovewhlemingly from elite schools because that's where they recruit from. if you didn't go to a big time school you need to have a family member at the managing director/sr vp level to enter the recruitment process.

anyway, the smartest guy I ever knew went to ucla, studied phillosphy, and now makes a modest living writing test questions for the sat and lsat.

dj, who cares about intelligence..it's about playing the game of life and winning it to a degree that will allow you to do what you want....for you that means bedding hot women; for others it means traveling to exotic places, having a nice car, and a big crib....what good is it to be smart and broke? no pussy, unless you like hippie girls that neither shave nor shower and live in boulder or humboldt county.

[Member #2041]

[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur] Do you think Bush or Cheney lived in adversity?? QUOTE]

that's exactly my point!!! anyway, bush was a fighter pilot. even if he dodged the draft i assume he went through ocs and fighter pilot school...which is more than obama or cheney ever did. cheney was a lineman at yale. I'm not syaing that playing football makes one a good leader, but it certainly makes one a better man.


If that's true, how do you explain the nauseating piece of shit that Five Deferments Dick evolved into in his adult life - spending his entire career helping various scumbag Presidents evade the Constitutional checks on their Presidential powers, and sending braver young Americans than he to die in furtherance of his facist ideology of enriching oil companies, one of which he is and remains a major shareholder.

It's inconceivable that, absent playing football at Yale, Cheney could have somehow been an even lesser human being than he did turn out to be.

And don't make any assumptions about the rigors of Dumbya's preparation. As a legacy son of his famous and well connected father, all sorts of doors were propped open for him that he would never have cleared on the merits of his own character - including the one allowing him to simply not show up to his training duty for nearly six months in Alabama, and yet still receive an honorable discharge rather than a conviction for desertion during his years of deep cocaine and alcohol addiction.

I might also point out that such stellar representations of character as Lawrence Phillips, O.J. Simpson, Pacman Jones, and Michael Vick have played major college football - along with any number of other felons. Better men indeed.

Oh, and the last President with a pre-Presidency resume similar to that of Barack Obama's was another legal scholar from the Illinois Statehouse, by the name of Abraham Lincoln. He turned out to be remarkably well qualified for the job of saving the nation from it's worst crisis ever. Not because of his experience, which was marginal, but because of his wisdom and character and personal resolve, which were all remarkable - and, not in the least, by his ability to inspire and lead through great oratory in support of his personal vision of his mission.
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Oh, and Cruiser D. Jeri Ryan's messy divorce with her husband, including allegations of spousal abuse, allowed Barack to slide into an easy victory in his first run for the Senate seat from Illinois, running against Ryan's ex. But more credit should perhaps go to Iron Mike Ditka, who turned down the Republicans last ditch bid to put him on the ticket instead of Ryan's ex-husband, because he didn't want to give up his lucrative gig endorsing gambling casinos.

[DJ FourMoney]

Yes I know degrees make the world go around... I just haven't had clue what to do with myself and I am not of the camp that just going to school allows you to "figure things out".

I am more than likely going to stay in the Automotive industry, I just need to make the jump from retail to wholesale or manufacture. You can do that based on experience which I now have as oppose to having a degree.

I'll be fine, I'm not worried actually.

Activist women tend not to be cute, rather plain but are usually good in the bedroom, if they aren't gay that is. They are basically the same as artisty-fartsy types and I have banged a few of those.

I come from the school (of thought) that more money causes more problems socially and you seem to post more about your problems than your successes. You never know the woman's true intentions if she knows your loaded. Since most of the Industrial world is not PC, Russians for example will just be up front and name their price as you have discovered.

But over on the other extreme end of the usual topics around, many Western men have been successful with their EE women and while many like to "shop" they aren't overtly materialistic and more interested in a stable environment.

I dunno dawg, one day a light will go on and you'll be happy I assume.

[Cruiser D]

DD my secondary education was in Geneva and I went to a university in Cambridge. You are right, I probably don't know too much about the Ivy League. :) The Ivy League is all about legacies and minorities with a token middle class person thrown in for laughs and giggles.

Ditka was a last gasp of the Republican's hoping for a Ventura. Obama had been a local player on the state level for years. Jeri Ryan hooked up with Brandon Braga during her time on ST, when she was still married. The major allegation that she made was that Jack Ryan wanted her to be a group sex toy at a sex club in NYC and then Paris. If you read about it you'll find he got 'Swift Boated' by the Obama campaign, Obama supporters waged a private campaign to get Ryan’s 1999 divorce records unsealed while Obama publicly said the records should be kept sealed.

[CBGBConnisur]

Obama went to Punahou, which is the same high school as AOL founder Steve
Case. Its one of the most elite prep schools in the US. He then went to Columbia as a transfer and then to Harvard. Obama largely spent most of his formative years living with his mother and grandparents in Hawaii, his experience was a sharp contrast from most African American males. He even said he never really thought about his race for a long time.

Obama being compared to Lincoln??? LOL. I also heard people comparing to him to JFK(JFK's own daughter commenting on this), also FDR. Honestly, if he was a white male with the same social background, no one would be paying so much attention. The reality is that America has run out of leaders to that caliber. One thing that has stuck to me is Joe Biden's comments that Obama will be tested within the first 6 months of his administration, assuming he wins. Anyone who thinks the world is not becoming more multipolar and that US power in the world is now declining is in a dreamland like $20 a barrel oil. ROFLMAO.

As far as big companies like Goldman and Merrill are concerned, they generally hire people from the best universities. I went to a very good non Ivy League school and still did alright. Wall Street firms actually hire a lot of people from outside the Ivy League, schools like UChicago, MIT, Duke, Northwestern, Berkeley, UVA, and Stanford are probably as good as any of the ancient eight and just as difficult to gain admission. Anyway those companies are now permanently tarred and feathered. Its amazing to see white shoe firms like Morgan Stanley go cap in hand to foreign companies and governments. Didn't you know China bailed out MS earlier this year?

[Member #2041]

Obama went to Punahou, which is the same high school as AOL founder Steve
Case. Its one of the most elite prep schools in the US. He then went to Columbia as a transfer and then to Harvard. Obama largely spent most of his formative years living with his mother and grandparents in Hawaii, his experience was a sharp contrast from most African American males. He even said he never really thought about his race for a long time.

Obama being compared to Lincoln??? LOL. I also heard people comparing to him to JFK(JFK's own daughter commenting on this), also FDR. Honestly, if he was a white male with the same social background, no one would be paying so much attention. The reality is that America has run out of leaders to that caliber. One thing that has stuck to me is Joe Biden's comments that Obama will be tested within the first 6 months of his administration, assuming he wins. Anyone who thinks the world is not becoming more multipolar and that US power in the world is now declining is in a dreamland like $20 a barrel oil. ROFLMAO.

As far as big companies like Goldman and Merrill are concerned, they generally hire people from the best universities. I went to a very good non Ivy League school and still did alright. Wall Street firms actually hire a lot of people from outside the Ivy League, schools like UChicago, MIT, Duke, Northwestern, Berkeley, UVA, and Stanford are probably as good as any of the ancient eight and just as difficult to gain admission. Anyway those companies are now permanently tarred and feathered. Its amazing to see white shoe firms like Morgan Stanley go cap in hand to foreign companies and governments. Didn't you know China bailed out MS earlier this year?

I notice that, other than laughing dismissively, you didn't actually present a single argument as to why the Lincoln comparison (PRIOR to Lincoln becoming President) is not entirely valid. I will grant you that Obama's educational background is substantially stronger than Lincoln's was. And incidentally, Obama attended Punahou on an academic scholarship - which, admittedly, is not something that most African American males can claim concerning their high school.

Of course Obama will be tested, as Biden stated. Just as surely, McCain would be as well. ALL Presidents get tested. McCain is full of crap when he claims that he has already passed those type of tests. In fact, during the current stock market crash, he failed wildly with his oscillating, panicked response, which is why he's trailing so badly in the polls right now.

[CBGBConnisur]

Well first of all the United States is not in the position that it was when the Lincoln was President. There are no States seceding from the Union, there a lot of issues dogging America but nothing as severe as what existed in the mid 19th Century, America is not exactly going to implode but its certainly going to enter an era where international powers are going to test the nation for the first time since the first half of the 20th Century. Obama's youth was nothing like African Americans in most urban areas. He lived a relatively sheltered existence with a white mother and grandparents on the island of Hawaii. I myself grew up in a cold Northeastern city in a blue collar neighborhood. I actually met a few people who went to Obama's high school when I went to college, they were nose in air, from what I know Obama went to that school on a scholarship, so he was probably not like the other alumni of that school that I met in real life. That is besides the point, I think Obama will be a better leader than McCain for a number of reasons, the first being that he represents a change from the last eight years which have not been exactly good, although one thing I give Bush credit for is that no major terrorist attack has happened on American soil since 9-11, there were several major attacks against Westerners in Asia and in Europe since that day. The second is that he is level headed, he does not seem to get upset easy, which is a great characteristic in this time. The other is his age, he is going to be one of the youngest Presidents elected, only JFK and TR were younger, I think he will
be able to tune himself better with young people than McCain or Palin, which is important because many younger Americans need to become more involved in politics.

The reality is that the world is becoming a more multipolar place, the unipolar moment that started after the Soviet Union collapsed is now over. Obama has more of an international view than McCain which should help. Considering all the troubles brewing, especially the global economic crisis being blamed on America and its inability to control malfeasance on Wall Street, other nations are not going to give the US another chance to screw it up all over again. America will definitely survive this but it won't be pressing its economic agenda on other nations like it did in the past.

Still when it comes to McCain vs. Obama, McCain has clearly seen more adversity. C'mon, the man spent three years in POW camp in Southeast Asia.

[Member #2041]

Still when it comes to McCain vs. Obama, McCain has clearly seen more adversity. C'mon, the man spent three years in POW camp in Southeast Asia.
What, exactly, does this have to do with McCain's judgment, with his understanding of economic issues, or his ability to govern? The fact is, McCain has shown, first with the choice of Palin, and second, with his wildly inconsistent and rash handling of the financial crisis, that he lacks the ability to deal with these issues. He also has demonstrated a similar stubbornness as George W. Bush has shown, which has gotten our nation into it's current situations. McCain has, along with Bush/Cheney, consistently misjudged the relative importance of Iraq vs. Afghanistan, and as a result, we still have not caught Bin Laden. And as a result, Al Qaida has been found in their encrypted websites, to be hoping for a McCain victory in order to further their goals vs. the U.S.

If the President's job involved having his arms broken and being locked in a cell, I would agree that McCain was much more qualified than Obama. It doesn't. It involves the ability to make a reasoned analysis of any number of complex problems, come up with creative, flexible solutions, and sell those solutions to the American Public. McCain does not have anywhere NEAR the skills on that set of criteria, compared to Obama. McCain has a GREAT temperament to survive POW treatment, but LOUSY temperament to be President. And god help us all if Palin, the single least qualified person in history to run for VP, were to become President, which, if McCain were to be elected, there is between a 25 and 30% actuarial chance of him not surviving his first term.

And the fact is, The U.S. IS in deep shit, courtesy of the Bush/Cheney policies which McCain agreed with 92% of the time. We need someone who will UN DO virtually everything that Bush and Cheney have done to this nation. NOT someone who thinks that 92% of those things were the correct policies. Colin Powell explained it all better than I could. McCain demonstrated questionable judgment, and he represents a continuation of the policies which have been a total fiasco for our country. Obama has the possibility of being a transformative figure in history - something McCain could not possibly be, because he fails to recognize the need for it.

[Jelly Donut]

I...a single argument as to why the Lincoln comparison (PRIOR to Lincoln becoming President) is not entirely valid.

Lincoln was elected because he stood for a specific set of controversial ideas. Lincoln's ideas were galvanized in American history during the Lincoln-Douglas debates. The ideas suggested such direction that the country was pulled apart by the fact of Lincoln's election. It's not likely half of the United States are going to split away from the Union after an Obama election. Lincoln is a tough act to follow.

If Joe Biden were heading the Democratic ticket right now - using the same (Obama's, not Lincoln's) ideas - it would be damn boring and unattractive to most Americans.

I would not completely dismiss a comparison between Obama and Lincoln, but as far as it goes, what's the difference between Obama and Franklin Pierce? It's a bit more valid a comparison. So, I'm not ready to erect a massive Greek temple to Obama on the Mall just yet (although I think we should spring for marble columns, if it comes to that).

If he wins, The Big O is going to be important in American history, people will love him even if he screws up a bit. The sentimental will want him to do well. He will have huge political capital going in to the Whitehouse.

I guess the main question for me here tonight is - will this result in Americans being able to freely travel and spend money in Cuba? It strikes me that this one of the things Obama could do that would improve life for the typical ISGer.

[Member #2041]

I would not completely dismiss a comparison between Obama and Lincoln, but as far as it goes, what's the difference between Obama and Franklin Pierce? It's a bit more valid a comparison. So, I'm not ready to erect a massive Greek temple to Obama on the Mall just yet. .

Was Franklin Pierce known as a brilliant orator? Was he known as an inspirational leader who was capable of mobilizing unheard-of turn-out? I think not. What Pierce WAS, was a guy who was viewed as innoccuous, and inoffensive, but he was also a life-long alcoholic, known for poor judgment, who died of cirrhosis of the liver. The comparison with Franklin Pierce is MUCH more relevant with Dubya than with anyone else.

[CBGBConnisur]

Wrong, the US is in deep shit because of the stupidity of American voters who elected Bush/Cheney twice, not to mention some of the ridiculously bad habits so many Americans have, we spend more than we earn, use too much credit and get ourselves in debt, as much as 85 percent of Americans live with debt. Even in 2000, America was in a very precarious position, China began its rise to global prominence, the Euro was only a couple of years away, etc.
You were arguing on the merits of adversity building character, from any angle McCain faced far more hardship than Obama. Being tortured in a third world prison for three years and surviving is a big feat if you ask me. Did you even read Obama's books? He did not even consider himself black until he was 12 years old. Obama lived a fairly comfortable existence for someone of his background. Saw the photo of young Obama on his grandfather's back?? I actually grew up in the outer boroughs of NYC and few people I knew would not have that kind of memory of a middle aged white male. I knew a few kids in elementary school who were called poo face when they were 6, it might sound silly but these kids faced racism early on. Obama had a white mommy who sheltered him, and I consider Obama biracial.
Obama is going to be an important landmark figure in American history. He is going to lead a very different American than that of the last century. From what I know, he has lived a very blessed life.

[Jelly Donut]

Was Franklin Pierce known as a brilliant orator? Was he known as an inspirational leader who was capable of mobilizing unheard-of turn-out? I think not. What Pierce WAS, was a guy who was viewed as innoccuous, and inoffensive, but he was also a life-long alcoholic, known for poor judgment, who died of cirrhosis of the liver. The comparison with Franklin Pierce is MUCH more relevant with Dubya than with anyone else.

Bush is like Polk.

I did not say Pierce was a great comparison, I'm suggesting he's better than Lincoln. Obama is the most deliberately inoffensive and measured candidate since that series pre-Lincoln forgetables. You are very defensive. Why is it so important to you that Obama be like Lincoln?

Drinking doesn't have anything to do with it, although I would suggest to you that much like the many brillant American lawyers who have made the transition into Democratic politics - Clinton, Spitzer, Edwards - the list is quite long. They all have something going on. If you know anything about law school, lawyers and the type of people who have been running for office since daddy left home - they all have some demon keeping the engine going. Obama's run on heavy fuel for a long time. Nothing may come of that or he could be the next Caligula. If you respect history, you respect the possibilities.

Anyway. Cuba?

[Member #2041]

You were arguing on the merits of adversity building character, from any angle McCain faced far more hardship than Obama. Being tortured in a third world prison for three years and surviving is a big feat if you ask me.
No, I wasn't arguing that at all. One of the other posters was arguing that playing football built Dick Cheney's character - I merely argued that was a silly claim. The fact is, there are plenty of people of admirable, strong character who lack the temperament and wisdom to be good Presidents. McCain is one of them. The fact that he's been a courageous American Hero is very admirable. It does not, however, imbue him with the particular skills that the next President will need in our current national situation. It may well have made him a far better war President than Bush has been (a very low hurdle, to be sure) - although, his obviously poor judgment has not been too heartening on this score. But, in any case, his courage in a POW camp has nothing whatsoever to do with managing the financial and economic turmoil that is the main issue facing the next President - and his performance on this score has been frightening at best over the past month.

And BTW, Polk was a FAR better President than Bush. Polk was one of the better Presidents of the 1820-1860 period. Bush is one of the worst ever.

It's actually not important at all that Obama be compared to Lincoln. I merely point out that Lincoln had very little specific experience - less in fact than Obama. Obama HAS shown to be of FAR above average intellect, and extremely measured temperament. Unlike Pierce, Obama has shown very savvy judgment on critical issues, And Obama has managed a highly competent campaign - far more competent, in fact, than McCain's. The fact is, McCain HAS shown himself to be rash, impulsive, erratic, and with abysmal judgment in his VP choice and in his dealing with the financial meltdown. Obama, on the other hand, has shown himself to be measured, in control, reasoned, and highly disciplined.

Admittedly, McCain demonstrated great personal courage 40 years ago in a POW camp in Vietnam. It's unclear just how that will enable him to govern in a financial crisis, when he himself has professed a lack of knowledge of economics, and his key economic advisors, Phil Gramm and Alan Greenspan, are two of the folks MOST responsible for causing/exacerbating the present crisis. And his selection of Palin as his VP choice was nothing short of irresponsible.

[CBGBConnisur]

Well you have to add to the mix that the next coming Superpowers are not Democratic countries, and will have economic clout as big or greater than the US. The winds of change are blowing. In my part of the world, everyone is obsesses with Asia, the Asian century is becoming more and more a reality.

[Member #2041]

Well you have to add to the mix that the next coming Superpowers are not Democratic countries, and will have economic clout as big or greater than the US. The winds of change are blowing. In my part of the world, everyone is obsesses with Asia, the Asian century is becoming more and more a reality.

Which is exactly why the next President needs to have the ability to understand Asian ways of thinking, and how to reach out to them in our dealings with them - not in confrontation, but in collaboration. Obama brings that to the table.

[Jelly Donut]

And BTW, Polk was a FAR better President than Bush. .

Polk was not popular. For that matter, Lincoln was not that popular either. A lot of people would have said Grant was way more important than Lincoln in the late 1860's. It's very difficult to say how people will judge Bush. If Obama cuts defense spending and the United States is attacked again, well, history twists and turns, doesn't it?

[Member #2041]

Polk was not popular. For that matter, Lincoln was not that popular either. A lot of people would have said Grant was way more important than Lincoln in the late 1860's. It's very difficult to say how people will judge Bush. If Obama cuts defense spending and the United States is attacked again, well, history twists and turns, doesn't it?

The verdict on Bush is completely settled. He's a total fiasco in every respect. And defense spending had nothing to do with 9/11 - we were fully armed, but against the wrong enemy - again, that goes to judgment. Bush and Cheney came into office looking to overthrow Saddam to control Iraqi Oil, and it tainted everything that they did. They were warned by the outgoing Clinton admin that Al Qaida was going to be our main threat, and they failed to heed the warning.

Obama has yet to be elected, let alone govern.

[CBGBConnisur]

Well we will find out what Obama can do, just don't expect some kind of miracle.
That would be plain foolish. A lot of people have some kind of insane idea that Obama is the Messiah.

[Member #2041]

Well we will find out what Obama can do, just don't expect some kind of miracle.
That would be plain foolish. A lot of people have some kind of insane idea that Obama is the Messiah.

I don't expect miracles. What I DO expect from an Obama Presidency is simple competence, and a willingness to engage the rest of the world on terms that are not unilateral, but collaborative, as well as a basic change in philosophy regarding appropriate regulation of market mechanisms - the lack of which is responsible for the mortgage meltdown and the fact that nearly 50 million Americans cannot buy health insurance.

McCain might well deliver on the first of these, but he assuredly would not deliver on the other two.

[SE Asia Joe]

Guys:
Apologize for asking probably stupid questions - since I'm NOT American and do not live there. On the other hand, One of the few "A's" I received whilst in College in the States was in American History as I truly wanted to learn what the good Ole U.S. of A is all about.

It is in this same vein that I ask these questions:

1. What happens if McCain gets elected i/o Obama? There IS the good ole South who MAY block Obama's bid based upon the "unspoken" word - race. If this happens, would America break out in a race war? At least little conflagarations here and there?

2. Do most people in the U.S. realize what Palin (who may indeed end up as President of the U.S. if McCain gets elected - and die) really is all about? She is a fundamentalist Assembly of God congregationalist - and the AG's or Holy Rollers truly believe that whatever they do is under the DIRECT command/instructions from God:

Corinthians 12:9-11 states that the "..........gift of the Lord cometh in many ways....to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines............/"

At frequent fundamentalist AG's church sessions, the phenomena of "Speaking in tongues" happens, followed by someone else in the congregation "interpreting" such message into English. Thus the AG's really believe that they've got God's direct command. At last that is what my impression is. Another prominent AG was John Ashcroft.

I've got more questions etc and here I want to again apologize if I am venturing into unwelcome waters and as such I'm wanting to first see if I'm gonna get replied to sensibly first or if I'm gonna be flamed.

Thank you all for your forebearance.

SEAJ

[Cruiser D]

Joe,

1) No
2) Sarah Palin is very good at doing what grandfatherly white men tell her to do, whether it's God or the powers at the RNP.


To all,

I always like to think of W as Grant, a populist dupe, front man and alcoholic. Substitute the massive corruption of Reconstruction for Iraq.

[DJ FourMoney]

1) No won't happen... Outside of banning of the election for some crisis, he's going to win despite about a 30% White (some Latino and Asian as well) Racist vote. The problem? 90%+ Black Vote, 90%+ Latino Vote and 30-35%+ White Vote - 300+ Electoral Votes = WINNER

2) About 65% of Americans KNOW what Palin is really about.... That's why there rumblings already in the McCain campaign and finger pointing to Palin as the reason why McCain is loosing...

[Cruiser D]

Most people think W and company have brought the country to the brink. People look at their 401k's, know (or are) people who can't find a job or had their house foreclosed/foreclosing on. And regardless of how the Right tries to spin it most people blame the W administration. As perceived terrorist activity drove the result home for W in 2004 I think financial terror is going to drive it home for Obama, if not in a landslide only because he is a black man named Barack Obama.

I’m just wondering how the 100’s of millions he ‘owes’ is going to effect Barry and I hope he doesn’t become an affirmative action president or for that matter a sell out to any SIG/PAC.

Palin was a pretty off the wall choice, did they even vet her? I wonder if she was even on the over/under radar before she got picked? If their idea was to appeal to the Hillary vote why did they pick an anti Hillary. Are they taking pages out of the Democrats 'How to lose an election play book'? If either Gore or Kerry had picked a populist VP they probably would have gotten the nod. Of course I don't think Kerry (the DNC) thought Edwards was going to be the dud he was. Liberman was just DNC politics. Maybe in 2012 the DNC will run a black female gay jew who's parents are illegal immigrants.

[Starchild2012]

Guys:
Apologize for asking probably stupid questions - since I'm NOT American and do not live there. On the other hand, One of the few "A's" I received whilst in College in the States was in American History as I truly wanted to learn what the good Ole U.S. of A is all about.

It is in this same vein that I ask these questions:

1. What happens if McCain gets elected i/o Obama? There IS the good ole South who MAY block Obama's bid based upon the "unspoken" word - race. If this happens, would America break out in a race war? At least little conflagarations here and there?

2. Do most people in the U.S. realize what Palin (who may indeed end up as President of the U.S. if McCain gets elected - and die) really is all about? She is a fundamentalist Assembly of God congregationalist - and the AG's or Holy Rollers truly believe that whatever they do is under the DIRECT command/instructions from God:

Corinthians 12:9-11 states that the "..........gift of the Lord cometh in many ways....to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines............/"

At frequent fundamentalist AG's church sessions, the phenomena of "Speaking in tongues" happens, followed by someone else in the congregation "interpreting" such message into English. Thus the AG's really believe that they've got God's direct command. At last that is what my impression is. Another prominent AG was John Ashcroft.

I've got more questions etc and here I want to again apologize if I am venturing into unwelcome waters and as such I'm wanting to first see if I'm gonna get replied to sensibly first or if I'm gonna be flamed.

Thank you all for your forebearance.

SEAJ


Dude...You should look America from the eyes of spiritualism than politics.

This little squibble here and there, is not what America is about...It is the most blessed nation on earth.

Even if Tomarrow ..Sarah Palin or John McCain or even his grand father or even Joe the plumber takes over as President....Its destiny has being charted long time back.

Its the founding fathers...who have taken all sides equally to see the worst of the worst if they become president will not effect what America is today.

People mis-calculate ..American economy and power is not based on Intelligence...You have enough "intellligent people in Asia and Russia" ..It is based upon "TRUST"

American society is very highly evolved...It has many faces...Republicans are as much required in America as does Democrats....America needs Sarah palin as much as Obama..both will show up at the right time.

Its not about about persons..but the vibration the whole idea that is America that will personify in an Individual.

Democrats hates republicans and vice versa..but they do not understand..the day..when either liberal and conservative way of living cease to co-exist in America that will be the END.

That day is way far off..America still has very good Karmic people around

[Doctor_Skank]

Obama is going to be elected and he is going to be elected just as much by white people as by black/hispanics/asians.

The whole race issue needs to be examined more closely.

Obama's mom is white. But he's still black for everybody.

Lenny Kravitz is black for everybody. But his dad was a white Jew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sy_Kravitz

People of all races need to wake up and the certainly need to work together to get America back on track.

[CBGBConnisur]

I doubt Obama will lose, the chances of that happening are very slim. Its definitely going to be a quantum leap in American history when he becomes commander in chief, it will completely change people's perception of race. W was able to win 2004 because people still were concerned about terrorism and national security, and that was the biggest issue then, no one really considered an economic storm was headed towards America. Right now the big worry is the economy and not global geopolitics. If anything this is the beginning of new era where America begins to think about its own internal issues rather than policing the world outside. Most Americans do not want their country embroiled in foreign conflicts, and there will be a more isolationist stance in the coming years, either that or America will act more multilaterally, acting with other major powers. The Bush Doctrine of unilateral regime change will never happen again.
Lenny Kravitz is black with a white Jewish father but most people would see him as black. Most of his fans tend to be white. Most people of biracial backgrounds tend to associate themselves with the minority group. I rarely heard of anyone who is biracial who would consider themselves white.

[Cruiser D]

Dr S, I like to keep it simple, Obama and Kravitz are men, they are black skinned, that makes them black men. Is it inherently bad to identify them by their skin color? Of course for the next four years Obama won't have to worry about that. Instead of people saying yeah, the black guy standing next to the white guy, they'll be saying yeah, the white guy standing next to the President of the United States. We are the fourth generation past where being a black man tossed you automatically into a caste. It's time to get over that, for both entitlement and discrimination. I think slowly but surely the US is doing that.

Then to take it even one step further and make it even simpler everyone regardless of location and skin color is basically the same. Well except for me, I'm just too damn handsome. :)

[DJ FourMoney]

Most people think W and company have brought the country to the brink. People look at their 401k's, know (or are) people who can't find a job or had their house foreclosed/foreclosing on. And regardless of how the Right tries to spin it most people blame the W administration. As perceived terrorist activity drove the result home for W in 2004 I think financial terror is going to drive it home for Obama, if not in a landslide only because he is a black man named Barack Obama.

I’m just wondering how the 100’s of millions he ‘owes’ is going to effect Barry and I hope he doesn’t become an affirmative action president or for that matter a sell out to any SIG/PAC.

Palin was a pretty off the wall choice, did they even vet her? I wonder if she was even on the over/under radar before she got picked? If their idea was to appeal to the Hillary vote why did they pick an anti Hillary. Are they taking pages out of the Democrats 'How to lose an election play book'? If either Gore or Kerry had picked a populist VP they probably would have gotten the nod. Of course I don't think Kerry (the DNC) thought Edwards was going to be the dud he was. Liberman was just DNC politics. Maybe in 2012 the DNC will run a black female gay jew who's parents are illegal immigrants.

Here's the story of how they "Found" Palin -

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/29/jane_mayer_on_the_insiders_how

[DJ FourMoney]

Dr S, I like to keep it simple, Obama and Kravitz are men, they are black skinned, that makes them black men. Is it inherently bad to identify them by their skin color? Of course for the next four years Obama won't have to worry about that. Instead of people saying yeah, the black guy standing next to the white guy, they'll be saying yeah, the white guy standing next to the President of the United States. We are the fourth generation past where being a black man tossed you automatically into a caste. It's time to get over that, for both entitlement and discrimination. I think slowly but surely the US is doing that.

Then to take it even one step further and make it even simpler everyone regardless of location and skin color is basically the same. Well except for me, I'm just too damn handsome. :)

Well.... There are more negative things in the world that are black than are white. White is seen as "pure", "correct" "right"

Black -

You know - The 8 Ball, (Fear of a) Black Hat, Black Cats, Dark Vader - Black is seen as BAD, Negative, Ugly, Horrible.

Draw from what what you will, but it would be much better when your just a plain ole "American" like you are in Europe. I'm not a Black American in Europe, I'm just an American that happens to be Black and its not seen as a negative...

[Jelly Donut]

1. What happens if McCain gets elected i/o Obama?

At this point there would be some significant problems. With the election a matter of days away, there seems to be little question in the mainstream media that Obama will win the election. The media has annointed him in the great tradition of "Dewey Wins!". If McCain were to win, it would be by a very tight electoral margin.

If Obama does not it's almost certain there would be race riots along the same lines as, say, the stuff you saw with Rodney King in the 1990's. More widespread, however if you're thinking it would be something like Hutus vs. Tutsis - that's not going to happen. Obama would calm things down with an eye on 2012. Again, that's not the way the wind is blowing.

The reality is Obama is the man of the hour. The average American voter wants something that is going to relieve the immediate distress swirling around the credit crisis, slowing growth and restore confidence in some kind of forward-looking vision. McCain can't do that.

Obama as President goes to the heart of the American dream. He's the Jackie Robinson of politics; you can tell people are already suspending judgement and voting him into the Hall of Fame. He's got more teflon than Reagan.

Which is great. There are not a lot of countries where a guy who's dad is Kenyan can become President. It proves something about the United States that most every American wants to be true.

[Leeuwen]

Highly unscientific and not necessary reliable polls in European newspapers show overwhelming support for Obama among readers. No surprise there, but don't you think Obama is going to be an enormous let down for majority of American voters? Expectations of Change, are almost beyond reality, given current state of finance and coming recession. Needless to say, some of you may question Obama's odds of launching his agenda successfully, others will have no doubts.

While Obama's charisma and common sense approach is irresistable to most voters, his honeymoon may be short, if people keep losing jobs and economy heads south. Additionally, the fact that skin colour still matters, is highly controversial, and is going to affect Obama's most certain presidency. So far, he's been very cautious by focusing on real world issues, but reading latest posts here, I see the unspoken issue is still surfacing.

Anyway, I wish good luck to both candidates, but don't think there will be much of a change.

[DJ FourMoney]

Highly unscientific and not necessary reliable polls in European newspapers show overwhelming support for Obama among readers. No surprise there, but don't you think Obama is going to be an enormous let down for majority of American voters? Expectations of Change, are almost beyond reality, given current state of finance and coming recession. Needless to say, some of you may question Obama's odds of launching his agenda successfully, others will have no doubts.

While Obama's charisma and common sense approach is irresistable to most voters, his honeymoon may be short, if people keep losing jobs and economy heads south. Additionally, the fact that skin colour still matters, is highly controversial, and is going to affect Obama's most certain presidency. So far, he's been very cautious by focusing on real world issues, but reading latest posts here, I see the unspoken issue is still surfacing.

Anyway, I wish good luck to both candidates, but don't think there will be much of a change.

All I'll say is -

FDR did ALOT in his first 100 days and today things aren't much different. We didn't have a complete collapse because of the protections Teddy and Franklin put in place because of Conservative movement. Look the Conservative movement weather it was Dem or Republican, Wigs or whatever, they have crashed the economy more than once, actually they have done it TWICE!

They under-mined Reconstruction, they crashed the economy twice in the 1800's, they don't deserve to rule ever again, period.

[Punter 127]

but don't you think Obama is going to be an enormous let down for majority of American voters? Expectations of Change, are almost beyond reality, given current state of finance and coming recession. Needless to say, some of you may question Obama's odds of launching his agenda successfully, others will have no doubts. If they think like the lady in this interview, (and I think many do) yes they’re in for a big let down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=381gFG4Crr8

[DJ FourMoney]

if they think like the lady in this interview, (and i think many do) yes they’re in for a big let down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=381gfg4crr8

ummm nope, you must not be reading anything but there is a movement that the "liberal media" doesn't talk about because to them its bad news for say nbc/msnbc who is own by ge who beyond toasters and such makes parts for bombs, missiles and fighter jets.... conflict of interest homie.

much of hollywood, the recording industry and the telecommunications market is anti-net neutrality, obama supports net neutrality and opening up the "white signals" (unused tv signals) for nation-wide wifi system, as proposed by google.

the us chamber of commerce is trying to push back against the employee free choice act including wal-mart. obama and almost the entire dem congress supports this act - done

the automakers say they need more money to stay afloat, obama has said he'll listen. he will, no hidden agendas - done

he's bullish on a green economy and frankly you need to get on the bus too dawg its about to leave you at the station. prop 1a in california will get passed and we'll have the first real high speed rail system in america, paid for by the bond and federal funds obama and congress will make available.

those making 250,000 and up will get higher taxes, ha-ha, i'm not crying for you. that itself will pay for most of the programs that will happen anyway. putting the country back to work means larger tax base for sales taxes and income taxes

i think its 30 million americans make $50,000 or less and living paycheck to paycheck including me.

i'm not going to keep breaking it down for people, the government via congress and every president since carter has looked out for you. a nation is judged on how it treats its least among them. current grading of the united states at d -

28th in health care
30th in infant mortality
us ranked 19th best place to live
only mexico and turkey has a worst wealth to poverty spread

we have plenty of money to prop up phony governments, fight clandestine wars, fight wars period and bail out s&l's and now wall street and investment banks, it has to stop... this is not the time to be fiscally conservative because most of the people arguing for that already got theirs...

[Punter 127]

ummm nope, you must not be reading anything but there is a movement that the "liberal media" doesn't talk about because to them its bad news for say nbc/msnbc who is own by ge who beyond toasters and such makes parts for bombs, missiles and fighter jets.... conflict of interest homie.

much of hollywood, the recording industry and the telecommunications market is anti-net neutrality, obama supports net neutrality and opening up the "white signals" (unused tv signals) for nation-wide wifi system, as proposed by google.

the us chamber of commerce is trying to push back against the employee free choice act including wal-mart. obama and almost the entire dem congress supports this act - done

the automakers say they need more money to stay afloat, obama has said he'll listen. he will, no hidden agendas - done

he's bullish on a green economy and frankly you need to get on the bus too dawg its about to leave you at the station. prop 1a in california will get passed and we'll have the first real high speed rail system in america, paid for by the bond and federal funds obama and congress will make available.

those making 250,000 and up will get higher taxes, ha-ha, i'm not crying for you. that itself will pay for most of the programs that will happen anyway. putting the country back to work means larger tax base for sales taxes and income taxes

i think its 30 million americans make $50,000 or less and living paycheck to paycheck including me.

i'm not going to keep breaking it down for people, the government via congress and every president since carter has looked out for you. a nation is judged on how it treats its least among them. current grading of the united states at d -

28th in health care
30th in infant mortality
us ranked 19th best place to live
only mexico and turkey has a worst wealth to poverty spread

we have plenty of money to prop up phony governments, fight clandestine wars, fight wars period and bail out s&l's and now wall street and investment banks, it has to stop... this is not the time to be fiscally conservative because most of the people arguing for that already got theirs...

hi dj fourmoney,

my post was intended to be a reply to leeuwen, but i hope your tirade made you feel better. i guess we all need to vent from time to time.

i’m sure you didn’t mean anything by it but, my name is punter 127 (on this forum) and not “homie” or “dawg”. please don’t call me names and i won’t call you names, ok?
i consider names like that offensive.

i’m glad you’re “not going to keep breaking it down for people” because we’ve all heard that socialist bullshit before, and i’m not drinking the kool-aid!
but hey that’s just me, to each his own.

now if you think the lady in the video won’t have to worry about buying gas or making mortgage payments (that’s what she said, and that was the point of my post) just because obama becomes president, well that pretty much makes my case and speaks for itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=381gfg4crr8

feel free to rant all you want, but i won’t be replying.

have a nice day!

[Cruiser D]

As I said, slowly but surely we are overcoming that.

Do you think it was a coincidence that they picked a black man to voice Darth Vader? :)

I know what you mean about the last part. I was reply to a girl on a local dating site and she asked me what I was, in context of English, Irish, Japanese, Martian, Whatever. I replied, American.


Well.... There are more negative things in the world that are black than are white. White is seen as "pure", "correct" "right"

Black -

You know - The 8 Ball, (Fear of a) Black Hat, Black Cats, Dark Vader - Black is seen as BAD, Negative, Ugly, Horrible.

Draw from what you will, but it would be much better when your just a plain ole "American" like you are in Europe. I'm not a Black American in Europe, I'm just an American that happens to be Black and its not seen as a negative...

Anyone else catch AP breaking that Obama's aunt is living in the US illegally. In Boston no less in government housing for the last five years. It will be interesting to see how Obama will handle it. Illegal immigration was a real sore issue with the middle class before they got worried about paying their mortgage. Anyone caught in the country illegally should be deported at once. Caught a second time jail time. NO government social benefits for ANY non citizens, legal or otherwise.

[Doctor_Skank]

Anyone else catch AP breaking that Obama's aunt is living in the US illegally. In Boston no less in government housing for the last five years. It will be interesting to see how Obama will handle it. Illegal immigration was a real sore issue with the middle class before they got worried about paying their mortgage. Anyone caught in the country illegally should be deported at once. Caught a second time jail time. NO government social benefits for ANY non citizens, legal or otherwise.Yeah I caught that. If I were him I'd avoid making ANY statement on it until after the election, except for maybe a "it's being investigated".

Damned if you do damned if you don't. In any case, pretty damn funny.

[DirkDingy]

Yeah I caught that. If I were him I'd avoid making ANY statement on it until after the election, except for maybe a "it's being investigated".

Damned if you do damned if you don't. In any case, pretty damn funny.


she's the half sister of his absentee father. i assume that barrack will have her ass deported--with her tacit complicity-and arrange for her to get a few bucks in niroabi.

[Member #2041]

she's the half sister of his absentee father. i assume that barrack will have her ass deported--with her tacit complicity-and arrange for her to get a few bucks in niroabi.

It's not like he picked her to be his running mate, and then discovered that she misused her office to cover her family's travel expenses, or to get her relative fired. It's also not like his wife was delinquent on the property taxes on a condo in La Jolla. The difference is, those inappropriate/illegal acts were all committed by someone McCain CHOSE to be with, not some distant relative Obama has nothing to do with.

[DirkDingy]

It's not like he picked her to be his running mate, and then discovered that she misused her office to cover her family's travel expenses, or to get her relative fired. It's also not like his wife was delinquent on the property taxes on a condo in La Jolla. The difference is, those inappropriate/illegal acts were all committed by someone McCain CHOSE to be with, not some distant relative Obama has nothing to do with.


This situation can't be attributed to Obama's actions while Palin's faux paus are a result of her actions.

Palin is well out of her league on the national stage...even most folks in the conservative movement admit this.

[Cruiser D]

The situation in of itself isn't about Obama, it's how he reacts to it that will be the most telling. His best course of action would be, 'I believe the immigration officials are investigating it now'.

The middle class's seething discontent about the illegal immigration issue is something that the mainstream media or the pols have not wanted to touch on or acknowledge. As some might imagine I’m quite active in the local blogs, this has touched off a firestorm.

Massachusetts (Boston) is a beacon for illegals due to ‘a don’t ask don’t tell’ policy and enormously generous government funded social benefits.

[Cruiser D]

Happy to say Obama said in a TV interview if she's in the country illegally the laws should be obeyed and she should be deported. I was on the fence on Obama, I was going to vote for a third party nut job but I think I'll push the chad for Barry tomorrow, not that it matters the electoral college has made my vote useless in my particular state.

[CBGBConnisur]

Some people will spin that negatively, Obama deporting his wee old aunt.

[Doctor_Skank]

I saw an interview with some tribal elders in a village where Obama's relatives supposedly once lived, and the villagers are all watching the election as if it is their own.

One interviewed elder was quite certain that when Obama becomes president, he would set aside some land in the US where people from Kenya could live too... or at least those from the village.

Was kinda cute.

[Opebo]

My prediction - McCain win due to a generous sufficiency of racism in Pennsylvania and Virginia.

[CBGBConnisur]

Obama will win Pennsylvania, you are obviously smoking crack. Philadelphia and Pittsburgh basically decide that State, and both cities are heavily democratic, Philly is 8 to 1 Obama to McCain, Pittsburgh is almost as heavy. Virginia has a large African American population that will vote heavily Obama, its also become strongly Democrat in the past couple of elections. Obama will win but an absolute landslide might not happen. Florida and NC are states that could go for McCain since Obama only leads by 2 points in those places, well within the margin of error. Actually wait, early voting numbers suggest Obama is leading in that state.
I checked RCP's polling average for 2004, Kerry was lagging by 2 points in October, Obama's overall lead has averaged 6 or more points.
The Dollar is beginning to rally after constantly plummeting in value for the past seven years. An Obama victory is one of the possible factors, if McCain wins, it will continue its plummet to peso status, higher government spending caused by the Iraq and Afghan wars plus the possibility of military action against Iran under McCain will definitely put pressure on the dollar.
Unlike 2004, the economy is the hot button issue this year, in 2004 everyone was still worried about terrorism as 9-11 was still fresh on people's minds. PA and VA are probably the least racist middle American states out there. I would believe racism would prevent Obama from winning in Texas or Alabama but not VA or PA.

[DirkDingy]

I wonder who will go to State (Kerry), Defense, NSC (Dr. S. Rice), Tres, chief of staff, etc. And more importantly the deputies and asst secs (who make and execute strategy). If Pres. elect Obama selects men and women of accomplishment and judgement who are not bound by strict ideology we will be ok..but if he apoints a bunch of left wing McNamaras as opposed to men like Bob Gates god help us. his cabinet should resemble Lincoln's as opposed to W's first one.

Anyway, the american economy is in its worst shape since the the 30s. I wouldn't even want the job. Kinda like being asked to be the Fuhrer of Germany in April of '45.

If MN elects a comedian, which it is likley to do, the GOP will enter into a state of wilderness until the american electorate realizes that a divided gov is the best gov.

[DirkDingy]

My prediction - McCain win due to a generous sufficiency of racism in Pennsylvania and Virginia.

Obama is putting state's in play that have not been in play for the dems since LBJ. The man's campaign machine is the best in the modern political era, by far. His campiagn is also the most funded in the history of the world.

[DJ FourMoney]

I wonder who will go to State (Kerry), Defense, NSC (Dr. S. Rice), Tres, chief of staff, etc. And more importantly the deputies and asst secs (who make and execute strategy). If Pres. elect Obama selects men and women of accomplishment and judgement who are not bound by strict ideology we will be ok..but if he apoints a bunch of left wing McNamaras as opposed to men like Bob Gates god help us. his cabinet should resemble Lincoln's as opposed to W's first one.

Anyway, the american economy is in its worst shape since the the 30s. I wouldn't even want the job. Kinda like being asked to be the Fuhrer of Germany in April of '45.

If MN elects a comedian, which it is likley to do, the GOP will enter into a state of wilderness until the american electorate realizes that a divided gov is the best gov.

I think Rice will get the roll of Ambassador to the UN. Hagel has been favored for Sec of State for awhile now. Samantha Power will also be involved in this, so yes the room will be filled with Intelligent people.

Sam's hubby is Cass Sunstein a legal Prof at Harvard Law, tabbed to be a Supreme Court Nominee when the time comes.

For you wanna-be War Hawks I guess you would watch those and Sec of Defence the most.

I think this cabinet will be quite a bit more Dove'ish and less Hawk'ish, we can't afford it for one thing. I say that not in jest, I think Internationally we can't afford it. We'll need to borrow more money for these "Rebuild America" policies and can't be sinking trillions of dollars in the Middle East. Nobody in several thousand years has been able to conqure that area, who are we to think we'll be able to do it?

6 years in and we're not any closer to doing it.

In fact, I think you'll see "Peace In the Middle East 2.0", Improved relations with former CIS countries, while keeping Russia at arm's length, which means for the most part, continued diffculties in importing your wife from Russia and any of its direct allies.

As for the 151 bases not in the US, we'll close a good number of them over the next 10 years as a part of a scale down in military action. We have spent almost 30 years increasing the miltary budget. Electronic warfare and intelliegent policy is just as effective as "brute force" in this almost post "modern" era.

I believe 70% of the focus for the Federal Government will be LOCAL policy, reversing of NAFTA, along with a Green Economy, Univ Health Care and few other things.

Pollyanna'ish I know but I honestly believe because most of us have woken up this will happen or we'll keep cycling out people until our demands are met.

[Leeuwen]

Every time an US president is about to get dedicated to domestic policies, like economy in Obama's case, he soon gets more and more preoccupied with foreign policy, which has always been de facto first priority, like it or not.
I wonder what Obama's first challange in that area will be. As if old well-know problems on the international scene were not enough, there are news about a deal between Russia and Libya, including nuclear technology and large Russian naval base in Libya. Will Obama maintain his dovish image, or rather get into troubles followed by massive criticism from republicans?

"A cooperation agreement was signed in the area of the peaceful use of civilian nuclear, particularly in the design and construction of reactors and the supply of nuclear fuel," said Abdelrahman Chalgham, who accompanied Kadhafi.
http://www.france24.com/en/20081102-russia-libya-sign-nuclear-pact

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, starting his first
visit to post-Soviet Russia on Friday, will discuss opening a
Russian naval base in Libya to counterbalance U.S. interests in
the region
http://www.france24.com/en/20081031-kadhafi-Muammar-Gaddafi-offers-host-russian-naval-base-libya

[Cruiser D]

The US has and will continue to have (for the foreseeable future) the largest military in the world. No one else has even shown a remote inkling of dedicating the amount of resources it would take to challenge the US. Russia is a non factor militarily. The army is highly over rated, the navy is a joke and the air force is still flying propeller planes. China might be a more viable #2 then Russia. Either way #2 is remote at best.

One assumes based only on the facts that Obama is a Democrat and non military that he will take a soft stance on foreign policy, this is not true. He already said he wants to wind things down in Iraq (there will be a US presence there for at least 5-10 years) and ramp things up in Afghanistan to finish the job W never did, mission accomplished indeed.

Russia wants to counter US interests in the Med? America no longer needs to shield Europe from the Soviet Bear. First, the Soviet Bear no longer exists. Second, Europe (UK, FRA, GER) is more then capable ot taking care of themselves.

[CBGBConnisur]

Leuween, forgive CruiserD, he is your typical Cambridge boy, always believing what he sees on BBC. Having a conventional military means little in the nuclear age, the US could have the best conventional military and it does but it still could not stop a Russian attack on Georgia. Georgia is not irrelevant to the US, its a key locale, an oil pipeline runs across the country. And Georgia like other Central Asian former Soviet states are key to US strategy in Asia.

Another 5 to 10 years in Iraq under Obama??!! No way. Obama will probably be the most pro Arab and pro Muslim US leader in history, recall his middle name?? Oh and his father was a Muslim. All the hardcore zionists in the States and around the world are aware of this fact, and they are definitely nervous.

Obama is no military man, its obvious he won't pursue an aggressive military policy at all. Arnie indirectly called him a girlie man. Arnie noticed like I that Obama is not exactly a bloke. You have to be kidding me. McCain is another breed altogether, he will bomb Iran into the stone age...or at least say he will. Israel is already planning to take matters into their own hands with Iran, if Obama wins today, Israel will use the remainder of the Bush term as a window of opportunity to strike Tehran. Obama is a momma's boy, he will use diplomacy above everything else.

The UK being a true part of Europe??? Now I know you are smoking some good shit, CruiserD. The poms never thought of themselves as Europeans, they still even have passport checks from the continent. The UK is almost on its way out of the EU. That is exactly what the continentals, particularly the Germans and French, want, the UK has been nothing more than a spoiler in unifying Europe, with the UK out, Paris and Berlin can shut up all the other smaller anti-EU voices in Europe, particularly the Polish, Dutch, Swedes, etc.

The EU gets most of its petroleum from Russia and the Russians have been known from time to time to blackmail the Europeans, they will probably look more into the Middle East, and I would not be surprised if a confrontation between Europe and Iran becomes a possibility down the road.

[Leeuwen]

The question of who is capable of bombing whom wasn't on my mind when I speculated about Obama's first presidential moves. In absolute figures, America spends more on military than all other countries together - True. However, $1bln buys far more hardware in Russia or China and their spendings are rising considerably. Besides when Cruiser_D dismisses Russia as a "non factor militarily" he can't be aware that Russia is still the only country in the world that can annihilate the USA. So, we are back to nukes and assured mutual destruction, which by the way will never take place. Any militarily conflict between US and Russia is out of the question, and it was clearly demonstrated in Georgia.

Since Russian naval presence in Syria, and now also in Libya can't be interpreted as anything else but response to US geopolitical ambitions, Obama will have to counterpunch somehow and no matter how he does it, criticism from GOP won't be late. Further, recent Russian involvement in Venezuela won't be kindly seen by Washington, given South America's love affair with socialism. Add Cuba's plans to drill for oil and Brazilian aid package to the regime worth $1bln. What if Cuba with the Castro brothers at the helm, gets deep pockets and starts spending oil money in South and Central America same way Chavez is doing? Will Cubans invite American Big Oil to the fiesta when drilling fewer than 100 miles off U.S. shores (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1853252,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner)? Wait, what about embargo?

Despite the Bush Administration's hard line on Cuba, Republicans in Congress have proposed legislation to exempt Big Oil from the embargo. That clamor is sure to rise — especially if Barack Obama, who is more open to dialogue with Havana, becomes the next President — now that Cuba's state oil company, Cubapetroleo, or Cupet, has announced a stunning new estimate of more than 20 billion bbl. bubbling off its shores. "This is not a game," Cupet's exploration manager, Rafael Tenreyro, assured reporters in Havana last week.

If true, those potential reserves could make Cuba a major petro player in the hemisphere. (The U.S. has reserves of 29 billion bbl.)

Looks countries like Russia, Venezuela, Iran, Libya, Cuba got or are getting rich from oil, and they haven't always been best allies of the US. Interesting chess game for next couple of years. Finally one can't stop wondering reading this (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1847976,00.html):

Over the past week, however, it became clear just how much the "American problem" may affect Brazil's stellar economic performance, as the Sao Paulo stock index — the Bovespa — lost about 20% of its value. A visibly irked Lula barked that the U.S. disaster "is one of the most serious problems we have ever seen." His parting shot: "Our financial system is not involved in the [U.S.] subprime" mortgage mess that sparked the catastrophe. "We did our homework and the U.S., who spent 30 years telling us what to do, did not."

Such is today's surreal situation that Washington is getting lectured on capitalism by Lula, the head of Brazil's leftist Workers' Party. All over a region once considered the poster child for economic dysfunction, the refrain is the same: Why can't the gringos run an economy as well as we do?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that Obama will have tougher time in office than most of his predecessors. His domestic opponents probably aren't heels over head in a dovish, dark-skinned Commander in Chief with dubious background, and those who voted for him, most likely expect Obama to deliver in terms of jobs, income and so on. I don't envy him.

[CBGBConnisur]

Obama's skin color doesn't really matter, and domestic opponents can now shut up. Anyway Asia is going to change the global balance of power and shift it East, since the two biggest economic stories of this century are populated by mostly brown and yellow people, that issue is moot. Most of what we know as white racism started with the age of exploration, a belief based that white European "culture" is superior, that age is over.

[Warbucks]

Obama's skin color doesn't really matter.....

...I am still yelling that the man is just as much white (if not more) as he is black and calling him America's First Black President is a fallacy.

But anyway I send my condolences/congratulations to the man because this is one high paying job I would not want and I wish him all the best.

[Cruiser D]

The US president makes 400k/year, not exactly a high paying CEO job, however the corporate jet and company housing is pretty sweet.

DW, Obama is black and he's a man, he's also the first black president elect of the US, these are indeed are facts. Is he Snoop Dogg, JayZ, Mike Tyson or Jesse Jackson, no.

[Warbucks]

The US president makes 400k/year, not exactly a high paying CEO job, however the corporate jet and company housing is pretty sweet.

DW, Obama is black and he's a man, he's also the first black president elect of the US, these are indeed are facts. Is he Snoop Dogg, JayZ, Mike Tyson or Jesse Jackson, no.

I guess the one drop rule still applies..wow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

[CBGBConnisur]

Obama earned 4.5 million last year in royalties from his books Dreams of My Father and The Audacity of Hope. His salary is irrelevant. Even William Jefferson Clinton's net worth skyrocketed after 8 years as President. The same will happen for Obama. If he was not married, women would be lining up for him.
I think the race card is now moot in America, Obama won by a clear majority, and African Americans have to look to Obama as their example.
Obama is and will be more dovish with regards to foreign policy, but that makes sense when we are living in a world where others are rising. America is not really falling, it depends on your frame of reference, but is just entering an era where it is not the sole king of the hill.

[DirkDingy]

Joe Liberman's turncoat ass will be marginalized now.

[DirkDingy]

Obama earned 4.5 million last year in royalties from his books Dreams of My Father and The Audacity of Hope. His salary is irrelevant. Even William Jefferson Clinton's net worth skyrocketed after 8 years as President. The same will happen for Obama. If he was not married, women would be lining up for him.
I think the race card is now moot in America, Obama won by a clear majority, and African Americans have to look to Obama as their example.
Obama is and will be more dovish with regards to foreign policy, but that makes sense when we are living in a world where others are rising. America is not really falling, it depends on your frame of reference, but is just entering an era where it is not the sole king of the hill.

women line up for a fuckin county commissioner...the only bigger aphrodisiac (sans perhaps fame) than money for a woman is power. an unmarried congressman in dc can pull most any woman he wants...grade a star power.

since i never broke through in hollywood i'm gonna try dc or the statehouse.

[CBGBConnisur]

joe liberman was a likudnik, thats why he rallied against obama. anyway the likud policies of israel have left that country in a disastrous state of affairs. obama is not anti-israel but he is certainly not going to identify with the extreme right wing of that nation's leadership. we have to live in a new 21st century planet where we have to learn to play nice with one another, and confrontational politics must end. i have been around the world and lived in the most multicultural city on earth to realize just how similar people everywhere are on this rock.

i know any small time politician could get ass but a guy like obama would have a line several miles long. tiger woods had a similar line when he broke the color barrier in golf, think of this as woods to the 100th power. anyway obama is a married man, and i think his wife has a great deal to do with his success.

mccain was practically cheering for obama. obama's victory speech was very restrained. the world in peril? its always been like that, for some people around the world, people are looking forward to the coming years, christmas was in beijing early this year. the first half of the 20th century was horrific, the 21st will not be a cake walk but i don't see the dark days of the beginning the last century happening either.

dreams of my father was an interesting read, particularly since he really did not spend much time with him. if anything it seems like his mother and his grandparents had the most influence on his upbringing.

obama is not lincoln, fdr, or jfk, he is obama, his own man.

[Warbucks]

Dreams of My Father was an interesting read, particularly since he really did not spend much time with him. If anything it seems like his mother and his grandparents had the most influence on his upbringing.


Still yelling... to the world blow up.

[Leeuwen]

Whether Obama remains dove is still to be seen. I think he sooner or later has to demonstrate strength in order to not be dismissed as weak, or he may end like Jimmy Carter. There is a lot of bitterness, even hate, among McCain supporters today and it certainly will be projected on Obama in near future. After listening to comments from NY GOPs, I believe images of black Obama supporters cheering and dancing in front of TV cameras may add fuel to the fire. One couldn't ignore moments when TV cameras panned over crowds of supporters and while Obama's was a mix of mainly Blacks, McCain's had no mix at all. Once again results of US elections indicate evident polarization of American society.

Random European press review, and not so subtle headlines.
De Telegraaf (Dutch) - "Jong an zwart stemt Obama" i.e. "Young and Blacks vote Obama"
Der Spiegel (German) - "Obama erweckt das neue Amerika" i.e "Obama wakes up the new America"
Frankfurter Allgemeine (German) - "Schwarze für Obama, Weiße für McCain" i.e "Blacks Obama, Whites [in favour of] McCain"
Dagens Nyheter (Swedish) - [i]"Obamas farmor lycklig" i.e. "Obama's grandmother happy"

[CBGBConnisur]

As long as he focuses on Afghanistan and getting OBL he will be set. Obama will not antagonize China or Russia, that would be plain stupid, even W would not even think about doing that. Bush took his eye off the ball, actually he took the nation's eye off the ball, made a bunch of nonsense lies, now thousands of young Americans are dead, thousands of ordinary Iraqis are dead, the world is more dangerous now than eight years ago, a nuclear Iran is a distinct possibility, the global economy is on ever shakier ground. Obama is going to have to deal with a lot of non military and war issues that could easily turn into those if left ignored.

The NY GOPs are out on their asses.

Bupkus about all black people at the Obama rallies. For your info I was there in NYC. Even was surrounded by a bunch of Euro Obama groupies near Rockefeller. Chicago and NYC had a big mix of people, McCain was predominantly white, no surprise, the Republicans have not done a good job of getting minorities. Younger white voters have been drawn to Obama big time.
Its different if you look at older white voters. As the older folks pass on, things in America will change.

Europeans seemed to overwhelmingly like Obama, most people outside the US seem pro Obama. I have had lots of experiences with young Europeans, they are a very liberal bunch.

[Leeuwen]

Yes, you are right, Obama is very popular here and gets lots of sympathy. Needless to say, for Europeans, US elections are series of showbiz events, as few bother to even study political program of each candidate. These elections were perceived as struggle between Good and Evil.

This kind of thinking makes me laugh, since there is no politician, elected by euphoric masses, who won't let them down, justified or not. We have seen it when Blair launched his "New Labour" party, we have seen it when Sarkozy was hugely popular, right after he succeeded Chirac. On the other hand, no politician will ever be straightforward, and tell what really is coming ahead. More work, less jobs and sharper competition. Politics is about giving hope, illusion of a good life. Well, a lot has changed during the 90's, and we got company. Hence, until someone explains why current situation, where Chinese workers making 10x-20x fold less than their Western colleagues, manufacturing comparable products, will continue as if nothing has happened, I may consider to believe in public politics.

Obama won't change reality, but he'll channel it to his voters far better than McCain ever would.